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Golden Age of Islam

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23882
Printed Date: 19 December 2014 at 9:34am


Topic: Golden Age of Islam
Posted By: JeddahBoy
Subject: Golden Age of Islam
Date Posted: 16 September 2012 at 6:31am
I am deeply saddened by the death of Christopher Stephens.  Did he have something to do with the movie?  Did he endorse it?...It makes me think that I could be killed just for looking Caucasian.  But I don't look that Caucasian and I'm Filipino.  You know, I don't see that happening in Malaysia.  I don't believe it's a perfect country, but that Islamic country has chosen to advance in ways that I truly admire.  I really don't know why other Islamic countries cannot follow suit.  I really don't.  Why? 

It's so amazing that the Abbasid Caliphate strove to acquire all the knowledge in the world whether it was Greek philosophy or Chinese papermaking, regardless if it was non-Islamic.  I don't know why that can't happen again...

Even before that movie came out, instead of channeling all that energy towards progress and development...I guess that's not what we want is it? 



Replies:
Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 16 September 2012 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by JeddahBoy

It's so amazing that the Abbasid Caliphate strove to acquire all the knowledge in the world whether it was Greek philosophy or Chinese papermaking, regardless if it was non-Islamic.  I don't know why that can't happen again...

Even before that movie came out, instead of channeling all that energy towards progress and development...I guess that's not what we want is it? 

It is recorded that Muhammad once said: "If there are two leaders among you, kill one of them". It seems that he saw it coming, and he saw it as the root of the muslims problem.

You know, the Shiah community has always maintain one leader all the time, but would you accept the Ayatullah as your leader?. Hey among all muslims in the world today they are the most techno savvy, as proof beyond the shadow of doubt that their Imamat is working. And their Imams are very pious people when it come to daily life. But the rest of the Sunnis are facing dilemma, a big one too.

There is a saying which I get from a movie, it says: "It is good to be a king". Well Mubarak from Egypt did not want to be left behind, so too the late Gaddafi, and today's Assad in Syria, and Ben Ali in Tunisia, etc etc etc.

To be honest, anyone is fine with me, as long they can proof it. But all of them been there for very long time just accumulating wealth and pose for photos shaking hands here and there, and light hands in killing their people and any people.

The next in line behind Iran when it come to Technological know how supposedly is Pakistan, but the small time Mullahs in the street don't want to be left behind too in tasting: "It is good to be a king". If they are willing to sacrifice a bit of their mini kingship positions, they should be able to move forward even a little, pretty soon. But can they do that? considering "It is good to be a king".


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 September 2012 at 4:02pm

Welcome, JeddahBoy.  Smile

Originally posted by JeddahBoy

I am deeply saddened by the death of Christopher Stephens.  Did he have something to do with the movie?  Did he endorse it?...

No and no.  He was killed because of anti-American bigotry and prejudice, or maybe in order to inflame anti-Muslim sentiment in America.  (The two go hand in hand.)  I'm not even sure that the movie had anything to do with it.  According to one speculation, the perpetrators had been planning this murder for some time, and simply took advantage of the chaos of the riots to carry it out.



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 September 2012 at 4:05pm

Originally posted by nothing

It is recorded that Muhammad once said: "If there are two leaders among you, kill one of them". It seems that he saw it coming, and he saw it as the root of the muslims problem.

What do you mean?  How is this the root of the problem?



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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: JeddahBoy
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 12:18am
Originally posted by nothing

Well Mubarak from Egypt did not want to be left behind, so too the late Gaddafi, and today's Assad in Syria, and Ben Ali in Tunisia, etc etc etc.

To be honest, anyone is fine with me, as long they can proof it. But all of them been there for very long time just accumulating wealth and pose for photos shaking hands here and there, and light hands in killing their people and any people.


That's why it is up to those who are educated to help the rest....even if it's just in little ways...


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 20 September 2012 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by nothing

It is recorded that Muhammad once said: "If there are two leaders among you, kill one of them". It seems that he saw it coming, and he saw it as the root of the muslims problem.

What do you mean?  How is this the root of the problem?

Actually it is not confined to muslims only. The closest one to see in the current democratic system it is called hung parliament, dysfunction. 




Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 20 September 2012 at 6:26pm
Originally posted by nothing

Actually it is not confined to muslims only. The closest one to see in the current democratic system it is called hung parliament, dysfunction. 
 
And what does that have to do with the topic?


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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: JustineC
Date Posted: 28 September 2012 at 8:17am
The Golden Age was a period of unrivaled intellectual activity in all fields: science, technology, and (as a result of intensive study of the Islamic faith) literature - particularly biography, history, and linguistics.


Posted By: ayazkhan111
Date Posted: 30 September 2012 at 8:43am
I have not heart before what you said about two leaders. Can you quote a reference book. Thanks


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 6:28am
Originally posted by JeddahBoy

I am deeply saddened by the death of Christopher Stephens. Did he have something to do with the movie? Did he endorse it?...It makes me think that I could be killed just for looking Caucasian.


Christopher Stephens death was indeed a tragedy. He didn't have anything to do with the above controversy. I agree with Ron Webb's description of events. God knows who the perpetrators were, and what their agenda was. If you are looking for an Islamic perspective, it was definitely wrong!

But I don't look that Caucasian and I'm Filipino. You know, I don't see that happening in Malaysia. I don't believe it's a perfect country, but that Islamic country has chosen to advance in ways that I truly admire.


That is because Malaysia is alhamdulilah politically stable and not in a state of political chaos or war. There a lot of very good things about Malaysia, it is a very good example of how different ethnicities can live so tolerantly together. In order to prevent dissent and intolerance, the Govt needs to be in control. The way Malaysia has progressed in the past, it is a good role model for other muslim states too, proves that modernity and advanced goes hand in hand with Islam.

I really don't know why other Islamic countries cannot follow suit. I really don't. Why?


Malaysia has also been blessed with resources and an educated, diverse population. Malaysia used its diversity to its advantage. Other muslim countries are not that lucky in some aspects, they are dealing with poverty, education, wars, terrorism, natural disasters... so its not as easy as it sounds. But yes, it would be a good idea to use Msia as a case-study...



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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: mjiqbalkhan
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 8:05pm
It is totally false to attribute the saying to prophet Muhammad (SAW). It
was hazrat Umer who said that.  To avoid chaos and confrontation among Muslims, it is the only option. When a person has been duly elected by vast
majority of Muslims and if somebody still claims to be the leader of Muslims,
then he should be eliminated, as Quran says corruption is worse than
murder. And two leaders in a nation are clearly a source of corruption and
chaos.

Yes, we can not tolerate insults of Allah's prophets whether Moses, or
Jesus or Muhammad (peace be upon them all), like it or not.


                                               Muhammad Javed Iqbal





Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 03 November 2012 at 3:39am
Originally posted by mjiqbalkhan



Yes, we can not tolerate insults of Allah's prophets whether Moses, or
Jesus or Muhammad (peace be upon them all), like it or not.


                                               Muhammad Javed Iqbal



 
How should we react?


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 30 November 2012 at 6:12am
"... then he should be eliminated, as Quran says corruption is worse than
murder ..."

To me this sounds like militant Islamism.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: JeddahBoy
Date Posted: 01 December 2012 at 9:07am
Originally posted by Chrysalis



Malaysia has also been blessed with resources and an educated, diverse population. Malaysia used its diversity to its advantage. Other muslim countries are not that lucky in some aspects, they are dealing with poverty, education, wars, terrorism, natural disasters... so its not as easy as it sounds. But yes, it would be a good idea to use Msia as a case-study...



Yes, I know it's hard...but if we really wanted it, we could make it happen...I really do.

Countries like Japan, China, Korea, Malaysia have come from behind but are now advanced/advancing.  So other countries can follow their examples.  In my opinion, if the governments of developing countries are not conscious of these things, it's because it's not in the people's consciousness either.  So no matter how many revolutions occur, nothing will change if the people are not conscious of how to progress either. 

That's one of the reasons I started my blog.  I discuss among other things, how countries like Japan progressed.  The government is always responsible for progress.  At least the people should know what should be done by the government so the government actually performs.   

Oil and Gas are not resources? - and from the heart of the Islamic world at that.  Yes, not everyone has that....but come on...all that oil money could be put towards educational advancement and technology...not the kind that created Osama bin Laden.

I think it is great that we can discuss things like these with people all over the world.  I believe that we can solve the world's problems through education.  Please share your ideas with me on my blog: http://seekknowledgeeveninchina.wordpress.com/

Please feel free to share specific ideas to reform education, society, and the economy.

Please also check this out: http://openislamiccurriculum.com/


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 2:46am
Why is science part of an "Islamic Curriculum"? Science is about general education not Islamic or Christian education, isn't it? Science is universal. There is only one science and everyone can contribute.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: JeddahBoy
Date Posted: 02 December 2012 at 3:33am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

"... then he should be eliminated, as Quran says corruption is worse than
murder ..."

To me this sounds like militant Islamism.



It does...religion is great if within reason...

What many people fail to understand is that even if a regime is overthrown, the existing problems don't go away with that regime - they are inherited.  From the Bolsheviks to the Arab Spring...it's the same old story.

Again...the answer being learning and education.  With the digital age the possibilities are endless and I do applaud Bill Gates and others for going forward with that.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 3:51am
It takes decades to learn democracy. Germany first tried it in 1918. Democracy merely lasted 15 years then it became a total failure. But the second try after 1945 was a huge success. So it's very likely that Egypt's democracy will fail. It's clearly headed for theocratic fascism. So we need a second wave of the Arab Spring. The same is happening in Russia.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: JeddahBoy
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:18am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

It takes decades to learn democracy. Germany first tried it in 1918. Democracy merely lasted 15 years then it became a total failure. But the second try after 1945 was a huge success. So it's very likely that Egypt's democracy will fail. It's clearly headed for theocratic fascism. So we need a second wave of the Arab Spring. The same is happening in Russia.



But there are reasons for that.  Without the economic success of the Marshall Plan and denazification, who knows what would have happened?  Those Middle Eastern countries need help too.  In the form of education. 

I prefer democracy, but without a well-educated population - it's crap.  Singapore is authoritarian, but because the population is well-educated - you get success.  It takes time, but it is well worth the wait.     


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 6:01am
Originally posted by JeddahBoy

Without the economic success of the Marshall Plan and denazification, who knows what would have happened?  Those Middle Eastern countries need help too.  In the form of education. 

I prefer democracy, but without a well-educated population - it's crap.  Singapore is authoritarian, but because the population is well-educated - you get success.  It takes time, but it is well worth the wait.     


I totally agree. And I'm in favor of a new "Marshall Plan" for the Middle East. Yes, education should be priority number one. But, number two is investments. Now here's the problem. After WWII the Allied forces stayed in Germany to make sure the path toward democracy turned into a street and highway. Investments into a new totalitarian system doesn't make sense. Now who should pay for the Marshall Plan in Egypt and Tunisia? Saudi Arabia? They use their money to export theocratic fascism, not democracy. The US and EU? But Egypt just elected theocratic fascists who won't create a constitution worthy of a democracy? If the US and EU invested, the Muslim Brotherhood would use this Marshall Plan money to hire religious police that make sure every Egyptian woman wears a face veil and that Copts pay their jizya surcharge. They would use the money to promote their religious agenda. Innovation is seen as a threat. Germans elected democratic parties after the war, because they already existed before the war. Egypt does not have that tradition. So what can we do?

A good education system also takes time to establish. Singapore benefited from the UK. Egypt's education system is in a dismal state. Curiosity at school isn't rewarded. It gets punished. You'd need a whole set of new teachers with a modern mindset. But who will teach the teachers?

I expect the situation in Egypt get worse. Soon the first tourists will boycott the country. Who wants to have a good time in Sharia land? The Egyptian economy will crash. Maybe in time, the Egyptians will realize that the Muslim Brotherhood is the problem and not the solution.





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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: JeddahBoy
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 8:19am
Originally posted by Matt Browne



 Now who should pay for the Marshall Plan in Egypt and Tunisia? Saudi Arabia? They use their money to export theocratic fascism, not democracy. The US and EU? But Egypt just elected theocratic fascists who won't create a constitution worthy of a democracy? If the US and EU invested, the Muslim Brotherhood would use this Marshall Plan money to hire religious police that make sure every Egyptian woman wears a face veil and that Copts pay their jizya surcharge. They would use the money to promote their religious agenda. Innovation is seen as a threat. Germans elected democratic parties after the war, because they already existed before the war. Egypt does not have that tradition. So what can we do?

A good education system also takes time to establish. Singapore benefited from the UK. Egypt's education system is in a dismal state. Curiosity at school isn't rewarded. It gets punished. You'd need a whole set of new teachers with a modern mindset. But who will teach the teachers?



To be honest, I wouldn't focus on Egypt and Tunisia because the situation has not boiled over.  I would focus on Iraq and Afghanistan.  Clean slate. 

Yeah, it should be the Saudis to invest, being the center of Islam and all....but that's not gonna happen.  Maybe Qatar or Dubai?....

I'm just thinking...there has got to be some well-educated people from Egypt or Tunisia that care enough to lift their countries' up from this present state ....there are lots of Afghan expats who came back to their homeland...

And honestly, I would go there and teach if my country wasn't more important to me.  But as I wrote in my blog, the first American teachers in my country were American soldiers, before the Thomasites took over, so it's definitely possible for groups of people to just go to a different country and start teaching. 

All this is tough...but the human mind is capable of achieving great things.  There's a lot of crap in this world and it gets to us...but if we think of the good and focus on it...it's definitely worth fighting for.  Evil never triumphs.     


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 December 2012 at 2:46pm
Good posts jeddaboy, and I'd say that the Philippines have gone through just about as much as anyone would wish to go through.  They've have tough times, yet they have made it haven't they?
Yes, education is key.
It is my understanding that at one time that was one of the strongest points in Afghanistan and among the Afghanistan people... before Russia came along and then when Russia was driven out the taliban drove out everything good which once existed there.


Posted By: JeddahBoy
Date Posted: 05 December 2012 at 8:36am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Good posts jeddaboy, and I'd say that the Philippines have gone through just about as much as anyone would wish to go through.  They've have tough times, yet they have made it haven't they?
Yes, education is key.
It is my understanding that at one time that was one of the strongest points in Afghanistan and among the Afghanistan people... before Russia came along and then when Russia was driven out the taliban drove out everything good which once existed there.


We haven't made it yet...but we are getting there...coz now our president brings such positive energy even though I had doubts about him...

Just like the other countries, we have struggled with corruption...we have to own up to that...but it is hard when there are powerful countries waving money in front of our public servants' faces in order to favor them....and they stop thinking of their own people.  I don't think that happened to Malaysia, Korea, Singapore, and Japan as much as our countries.  We countries who are of strategic interest.  And it sucks being a war zone....

So change from the top is not going to work as long as they continue to get bribed by certain powers.  It has to be from the bottom.  It's much harder, but now with information technology we can make it happen. 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 December 2012 at 3:26pm
Hello jeddaboy,
I was sorry to see the news reports today of the Philippines and the typhoon.  Unhappy
I immediately thought of you.
Caringheart


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 7:09am
Well, the clean slate of Afghanistan is threatened by the Taliban, which still has millions of supporters. Now the foreign troops are leaving. What could happen to the investments in education? Well, the first thing will be all schools for girls getting closed. And schools for boys will be mainly about memorizing the Qur'an and practicing Jihad. The Taliban need to shrink to the size of the neo-Nazis in Germany which consists of a couple of thousand dimwits which can be controlled. Will this happen?




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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 2:50pm
The 'golden age of Islam' occurred due to the free exchange of ideas... freedom of speech.  Education, advancement and discovery blossomed when the knowledge of all people was combined to work together.  The 'golden age of Islam' was actually the golden age of sharing ideas and knowledge, and working towards a common good.
No golden age will occur as long as any country is on lockdown. Disapprove


Posted By: JeddahBoy
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Hello jeddaboy,
I was sorry to see the news reports today of the Philippines and the typhoon.  Unhappy
I immediately thought of you.
Caringheart


I appreciate it...see, I told you we're not there yet...and it's always the poor people who suffer when these things happen *sigh*


Posted By: JeddahBoy
Date Posted: 16 December 2012 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Well, the clean slate of Afghanistan is threatened by the Taliban, which still has millions of supporters. Now the foreign troops are leaving. What could happen to the investments in education? Well, the first thing will be all schools for girls getting closed. And schools for boys will be mainly about memorizing the Qur'an and practicing Jihad. The Taliban need to shrink to the size of the neo-Nazis in Germany which consists of a couple of thousand dimwits which can be controlled. Will this happen?




Very big threat indeed.  But it's nice to know that it's not stopping Afghan expats from returning.  Lots of internationals still contributing - it's a fight. 

My point is this.  The reason I started this discussion is because I felt that Islam now is so far from what it was before.  And yet we have all these modern conveniences and advancement.  Yes, Greece now is so far from Ancient Greece and Italy now is so far from Renaissance Italy.

But I think their common thread is that there was a desire to learn.  To be better than what they were before.  We are so better than this.       


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 17 December 2012 at 8:41am
Good to know about the returning expats! Modern Afghans can win the fight against the Stone Age Taliban, but it will be hard. 

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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt



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