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THE MESSAGE OF THE MESSENGERS

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23797
Printed Date: 30 July 2014 at 12:13pm


Topic: THE MESSAGE OF THE MESSENGERS
Posted By: truthnowcome
Subject: THE MESSAGE OF THE MESSENGERS
Date Posted: 01 September 2012 at 10:48pm
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All Praises are for Allah (S) the Creator and Sustainer. I seek his blessing on our noble Prophet Muhammad (S).

In Islam Muslims were thought that Islam is the first and only religion recognize by Allah (S) (God Almighty). Why Islam? It is because Islam is an Arabic word...when translated to English would mean: “peace and complete submission to the will of God Almighty”; in other words: peace acquired by total submission to the will of God Almighty.

 If we go back to the origin of man, the first man Adam (S) as the scriptures established, we would recognize that he was order by God Almighty to “submit to His will” in order to received help and guidance; thus, he believed in “submitting to God’s will” which when translates in to Arabic would be “ISLAM”; so Islam was there from the very beginning of Adam (S). The Qur’an is just the last message to all mankind [The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will)…But if you deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account. (Q.3:19)]. It is God Almighty who chooses the name “ISLAM” for his religion.

Why am I saying that? It is because Islam is not a new religion, it is the religion of all the prophet of the past; they all believe in the “submission to God’s will (Islam)

“For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).” (Qur.16:36); and ‘We sent not an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom’.” (Qur.14:4)

  For example Jesus (S) was sent to the Children of Israel: “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”  ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2015:22-26&version=9 - Matthew 15:24 ); These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:5-6&version=9 - Matthew 10:5-6 )

Muhammad (S) on the other hand was sent as a universal Messenger to all mankind, Allah (S) mentioned in Qur’an:

We have not sent thee but as a (universal messenger) to all mankind…but most of mankind knew not”. (Q.34:28)

The Quran which is the final revelation from Allah (S), it is for all mankind and Jinn (spirit being) and it’s a confirmation of previous revelations and fuller explanation of Allah (S) message.

“This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.” (Qur.10:37)

 We all came from the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, then a nation, then many nations and tribe. Revelation was sent to mankind since the beginning for guidance and Allah (S) mentioned, those people did not differ among themselves except through selfish contumacy and Allah (S) honored the most righteous among the mankind. 

“O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).  (Qur.49:13)

Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the people of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.” (Qur.2:213)

The noble call to people of the book:

 

Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will). (Q.3:64)

 

     The God of the Israelites declared death penalty in Deuteronomy 13:6-9 and in Chronicles 15:13, if anyone even your own brother or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend encourage you to secretly worship other deity than the God of Israel he or she must put to death.

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."( Chronicles 15:13)

The one who submitted to God’s will is call Muslim. Muslim is also an Arabic word which means, “obey and submit”; and all the prophet of the past were “obeyed and submitter” to God’s will; thus, they were Muslims.

Jesus (S) in his final message he looks up to the Heaven and gives thanks to God Almighty for affording him to give eternal life to all whom God Almighty has chosen; and that is to believe in the one true God and Jesus the Messiah whom He has sent.

“1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John17:1-4&version=9 - :1-2)

This is what he said:

3And this is life eternal, that they (the disciples or who call themselves Christian) might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou (the only true God) hast sent.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John17:1-4&version=9 - :1-2);And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%204&version=9 - - Luke 4:8 )

That is the declaration of faith at the time of Jesus (S), in other words, is to believe in no other deity except the one true God Allah (S) and Jesus (S) is the messenger of Allah (S) and you will received ETERNAL LIFE. Same declaration Muslims make except that at the end they say, Muhammad (S) is the messenger of Allah (S). That is to say: “I testify that there is no other deity except Allah (S) and I testify that Muhammad (S) is the messenger of Allah (S).”


The message of Jesus (S) was to preach the Good News of coming of God’s Kingdom on earth and that message was to inform us of the coming of the universal message: “the Qur’an”.

To make that claimed I must establish the proof, without evidence there is no case. I’ll begin by quoting what Jesus (S) said.

Jesus (S) said: "I must preach the kingdom of God to the other cities also, BECAUSE FOR THIS PURPOSE I HAVE BEEN SENT" http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=LUKE%204:43%20&version=NKJV - - Luke 4:43 NKJV );

From that statement we can no doubt recognize the purpose of Jesus (S) message. His core message was to inform us of the coming of God’s kingdom on earth and that is why he told his disciples to pray for the coming of it. He said: After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%206:9-13&version=9 -

That would mean the kingdom of God was yet to come in the future tense, even today People who claimed to be followers of Jesus (S)…they are still awaiting for the coming of God’s kingdom on earth.

After the demise of Jesus (S) one of his’ disciple had a vision of prophesy which is known today as the “Book of Revelation”; and in that book, in chapter 12 verses 5 to 10 it mentioned of a male child, when he would have come then “SAVATION AND THE KINGDOM OF GOD” will come. I quote:  “And she brought forth a MAN CHILD, who was to rule all nations with a rod of ironNow comes Salvation and strength, and the kingdom of our God… 12:5-10.)

Also, in that book, it mentioned of “an angel” bringing another book from “Heaven” to preach to all nations and tongue…it was a universal message for all mankind. I quote: ““And I (John) saw another angel fly in the midst of haven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. Saying with aloud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014:6-7&version=9 - ).

The Kingdom of God would be taken away from the Jews: “Jesus said unto them (Jews), Did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders reject the same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord’s doings, and it is marvelous in our eyes. Therefore say I unto you The kingdom of God shall taken from you (The Jews), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall broken: but whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” (Matt.21:42-44)

The “kingdom of God” was Jesus spoke of was “a message to come”, he described it as a corner stone that will bare fruits and be MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES, and no other message would be able destroy it and where ever the message establish it will prevail over all other message (man made law).

Allah (S) mentioned in the Qur’an: It is He (God Almighty) who has sent His Messenger [Muhammad (S)] with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) that He may make it prevail over all religions and enough is Allah for a witness. (Q.48:28)

     As I have established above that Islam is not a new religion, it is the religion of all the prophets; I have establish that the kingdom of God was yet to come, another book…which is a “universal one” is yet to come and a man child who will rule all nations was yet to come.

Now, to conforming that “judgment” is the “law” that mentioned there it mentioned in Isaiah 42:1-4:“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentile4- He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he has set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for His LAW. (Isaiah.42:1-4)

“And when he (the Comforter) is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.” (John.16:8)

As we can see the everlasting Good News for all nations is the Judgment to the Gentiles, which is God’s everlasting law on earth.

QUR’AN CONFORMS:

We have not sent thee (O Muhammad) but as a universal Messenger to all mankind…but most of mankind know not.” (Qur.34:28).

  Blessed is He who sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong) to His Servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures.” (Q.25:1) “Thus have We revealed it (the Qur’an) to be a judgment of authority in Arabic” (Q.13:37)

Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and Judgment (Between right and wrong). (Qur’an 2:185)

A book, whereof the verses are explained in detail-A Qur’an in Arabic, for people who understand-Giving Good News and admonition: yet most of them turn away, and so they hear not. (Q.41:3-4)

 …it is no less than a Message for all creatures (mankind and jinn). (Q.12:104)

Say, the Holy Spirit (Angel Gabriel) has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a guide, and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (Q.16:102)“This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.” (Qur.10:37)

Without doubt it is (announced) in the reveled books (Torah, Gospel) of former people. (Q.26:196) And this is a book which We have sent down, bringing blessing and conforming (the revelation) which came before it. (Q.6:92)

1.     …so fear Allah and obey me. (Q.3:50); ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should fear, and die not except in a state of Islam. (Q.3:102)

2.     And glorify Him morning and evening. (Q.33:42)

3.     Thus have We revealed it (the Qur’an) to be a judgment of authority in Arabic (Q.13:37)

What Revelation 14-7 says? 

It says: Fear God and Give Glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come!”

Our job as Muslims it to conveyed the message to every one: …And say to the People of the Book…“Do ye (also) submit yourselves?... thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah’s sight are (all) His servants. (Q.3:20); “Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: For thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His path, and who receive guidance.” (Q.16:125)

Allah (S) tells us: Say: “O People of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that comes to us and that which came before (us)…?” (Q.5:59)

       The fulfillment of the Ishmaelite’s prophesy. The God of Abraham’s promise to bless Abraham’s son Ishmael and make him a Great nation: “And as for Ishmael…Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and multiply him exceedingly…and I will make a GREAT NATION.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:20&version=9 - - Genesis 17:20 ).

…And nearest among them in love to the Believers (Muslims) wilt thou find those who say, We are Christians Because among these are men devoted to learning and who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (Q.5:82)

Jesus said: “…by the fruit ye shall knew them.” (Matt.7:20)

It mentioned in Luke: And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=lu+13:29&translation=str&st=1&new=1&sr=1 -  ); Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1co+6:10&translation=str&st=1&new=1&sr=1 - - 1Co 6:9-10  

Br. Zainool



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!



Replies:
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 7:12am

Originally posted by truthnowcome

The God of the Israelites declared death penalty in Deuteronomy 13:6-9 and in Chronicles 15:13, if anyone even your own brother or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend encourage you to secretly worship other deity than the God of Israel he or she must put to death.

And this is the same god that you worship?
Shocked



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 04 September 2012 at 12:46am
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Mr. Ron Webb, I thought you would have recognize why I have include that verse even though it was not relavant to that presentation. Let me put it this way, The God whom the Jews, Christians amd Muslims claimed to follow is very serious about his legislation (His will) and anyone who break it the consequence is serious. Let me show you what I am talking about! Jesus (s) rebuke the Jews for not follow his law in Matthew 15

1Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

 

According to Jesus (S) there not only to disbelieve and worship other diety than the God of Abraham you will be put to death but even curse your parent. He further explained the seriousness and consequence of not to follow the law and teaches others to do so in Matthew 5:18-19

 

“Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.....” (Matthew 5:19)

 

Christians as well as the Jews do not follow the law; the Jews are parcial with the law and the Christians are following Paul’s commandments instead of what Jesus (s) teaches them to do in orther to have eternal life. It’s also in Matthew 19:16-17, he established how serious it is if you want to have eternal life, you must keep the commandment, it mentioned: 

 

And, behold, one came and said unto him [Jesus (S)], Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (: http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=mt+19%3A17&section=0&it=kjv&oq=mt%2019%3A17&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=mt&ng=19&ncc=19 - - Matt.19:16-17KJV )

 

 

  The Muslim has a similar law also, if you become defected and join the enemy you will be put to death. So yes we follow the same God also!

 

Bro Zainool

 



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 04 September 2012 at 4:40am
There is a vast difference between "let him die" a natural death and not receive everlasting life, and actually putting him to death prematurely and violently.  But I agree that there are some equally horrific laws in the Christian Bible (mostly in the Old Testament) -- which is why I could never believe in such a god, much less worship or praise him.

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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 04 September 2012 at 8:39am
"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:6-9)



What a clean clear sign from God, that he wants a clean and chaste society not a bunch of Sodom & Gomorrahs running around polluting the earth with filth.Today we have people coming and telling us oh what a God, he kills people.When you purchase a television,you are given a book,which is called an instruction manual.When the creator of that tv tells you, do not put your tv in water it will get damaged.You listen.when the book tells you do not expose this tv to the heat of the sun it will get damaged you listen.when the book tells you do not emerse the tv in water it will get rusty and damaged you listen.

When God tells you in his book do not worship other then him do not commit adultery,do not do this or that it is bad for you. Our response he is a murdering god he does not know what he is saying.He only talks of killing people,this is us the ungrateful animal who with a puny little brain wants to stand judgement on his creator.What a sad day for a human being,when he cannot listen to the one who created him.    


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 September 2012 at 1:30pm
What a simple and great explanation.
Jazakallah,
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 05 September 2012 at 4:12pm

Originally posted by iec786

What a clean clear sign from God, that he wants a clean and chaste society not a bunch of Sodom & Gomorrahs running around polluting the earth with filth.Today we have people coming and telling us oh what a God, he kills people.When you purchase a television,you are given a book,which is called an instruction manual.When the creator of that tv tells you, do not put your tv in water it will get damaged.You listen.when the book tells you do not expose this tv to the heat of the sun it will get damaged you listen.when the book tells you do not emerse the tv in water it will get rusty and damaged you listen.

When God tells you in his book do not worship other then him do not commit adultery,do not do this or that it is bad for you. Our response he is a murdering god he does not know what he is saying.He only talks of killing people,this is us the ungrateful animal who with a puny little brain wants to stand judgement on his creator.What a sad day for a human being,when he cannot listen to the one who created him.   

Again, there is a vast difference between "don't do this or you will damage your television", versus "don't do this or I will send my technicians to invade your house and destroy your television -- and then destroy you."  (By the way, Hasan: I find it hard to believe that you would fail to notice just how bad this analogy is. You're smarter than that.)



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 September 2012 at 8:00pm
It was God who passed judgement and destroyed sodom and Gomorrah, not other humans.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 September 2012 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by iec786

What a clean clear sign from God, that he wants a clean and chaste society not a bunch of Sodom & Gomorrahs running around polluting the earth with filth.Today we have people coming and telling us oh what a God, he kills people.When you purchase a television,you are given a book,which is called an instruction manual.When the creator of that tv tells you, do not put your tv in water it will get damaged.You listen.when the book tells you do not expose this tv to the heat of the sun it will get damaged you listen.when the book tells you do not emerse the tv in water it will get rusty and damaged you listen.


When God tells you in his book do not worship other then him do not commit adultery,do not do this or that it is bad for you. Our response he is a murdering god he does not know what he is saying.He only talks of killing people,this is us the ungrateful animal who with a puny little brain wants to stand judgement on his creator.What a sad day for a human being,when he cannot listen to the one who created him.    


Again, there is a vast difference between "don't do this or you will damage your television", versus "don't do this or I will send my technicians to invade your house and destroy your television -- and then destroy you."  (By the way, Hasan: I find it hard to believe that you would fail to notice just how bad this analogy is. You're smarter than that.)



Ron,
no it is not. Of course anything written by a human will have some deficiency in it, including my own writings. However, I understood the main message behind it and greatly agree with that.
We listen to our bosses at work: If we are told no jeans, we understand its meanings. If we are told to take a break every four hour, we are good at that. Similarly, when we see speed limit is 40, we obey it otherwise we get a ticket. We are told if we are late on a CC payment we will be charged a penalty of $30.00 we follow that. We don't seem to have issue with anyone of that because we see the consequences delivered to us right away.

God, on the other hand has told and given us chance to correct ourselves, before He brings out our accountability. There it shows God's Mercy for us. But since we don't see the consequences upfront, somehow we feel easy, even many of us feel that those consequences are not real.
It is up to us to wait to see it to believe it, or believe it unseen! Also, we get by breaking some laws, like speeding because there was no cop when I was speeding, but with God, each and everyone will be accounted for, none will escape justice.

Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 06 September 2012 at 7:57pm

Let's go back to the original quote that caught my attention:

Originally posted by truthnowcome

The God of the Israelites declared death penalty in Deuteronomy 13:6-9 and in Chronicles 15:13, if anyone even your own brother or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend encourage you to secretly worship other deity than the God of Israel he or she must put to death.

So a more accurate statement of iec786's analogy would be: Suppose you purchase a television, and then you find that according to the instruction manual, if anyone tries to sell you a different brand of TV you are obligated to kill him or her.  And even that isn't quite accurate, because "purchase" implies that we had some brand choice in the first place.  Nope, God has a monopoly, which He enforces by threats of violence and murder.  I don't understand how anyone can find that worthy of worship.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 10 September 2012 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Let's go back to the original quote that caught my attention:


Originally posted by truthnowcome

The God of the Israelites declared death penalty in Deuteronomy 13:6-9 and in Chronicles 15:13, if anyone even your own brother or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend encourage you to secretly worship other deity than the God of Israel he or she must put to death.


So a more accurate statement of iec786's analogy would be: Suppose you purchase a television, and then you find that according to the instruction manual, if anyone tries to sell you a different brand of TV you are obligated to kill him or her.  And even that isn't quite accurate, because "purchase" implies that we had some brand choice in the first place.  Nope, God has a monopoly, which He enforces by threats of violence and murder.  I don't understand how anyone can find that worthy of worship.





I an sorry Ron Webb,I think you misunderstood what i told you.Please do kill the television.

Let me put it in simple English.

God wanted to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good or evil."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 3:36pm
Ron,
I understand what you are saying, I have been there once. Does One God belief means God has a monopoly? Simply, yes.
But God is not your high school bully nor a power hungry politician. God is not a politically appointed Judge, nor he is influenced by size of your donations.
God is All powerful, nothing is beyond His reach, Just and all Knowing thus the only one who can serve absolute Justice.

As a human we are given what it takes to make sound judgement. We are given responsibilities, if we choose to fulfill those responsibilities we will receive its rewards. If we choose to refuse to fulfill those responsibilities, we will only be held responsible for that.
There is a reward and punishment in every act. Its very basic, very simple.

Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 4:54pm

Originally posted by iec768

I an sorry Ron Webb,I think you misunderstood what i told you.Please do kill the television.

No, I'm not misunderstanding anything.  In the analogy, the television corresponds to religion.    It is the person selling the wrong television/religion that we are commanded to kill.  Nice try, though.

God wanted to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good or evil.

He "wanted to see"?  If God is omniscient, He already knows who will choose what.  He knows (because He made me as I am) that the flimsy evidence offered by "messengers" thousands of years ago is simply not good enough to make me believe in their far-fetched claims.  I am not free to choose what I believe, any more than you are free to disbelieve.


Originally posted by honeto

But God is not your high school bully nor a power hungry politician. God is not a politically appointed Judge, nor he is influenced by size of your donations.
God is All powerful, nothing is beyond His reach, Just and all Knowing thus the only one who can serve absolute Justice.

If you consider it "justice" to murder someone simply for expressing a sincere misunderstanding of God or religion, then we have nothing more to say to one another.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 7:58pm
Ron,
please help me understand what you mean with "If you consider it "justice" to murder someone simply for expressing a sincere misunderstanding of God or religion, then we have nothing more to say to one another."
so I can respond properly.
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 September 2012 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by honeto

Ron,
please help me understand what you mean with "If you consider it "justice" to murder someone simply for expressing a sincere misunderstanding of God or religion, then we have nothing more to say to one another."
so I can respond properly.
Hasan

First, I should probably apologize for a somewhat grumpy response -- and maybe one day I will; but right now I am indeed feeling a bit grumpy about Muslim apologists, what with Libya and Yemen and Pakistan and all.  IMHO you really are defending the indefensible.

We were talking about http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:6-9&version=NKJV - Deuteronomy 13:6-9 and http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Chronicles%2015:13&version=NKJV2 - 2 Chronicles 15:13 , which make it very clear that we are commanded by God to kill anyone who preaches a different religion.  Truthnowcome's argument is that this Judeo-Christian edict is the same message that was proclaimed by Mohammad.

The difference, however, is that with rare exceptions most modern Christians treat such passages as purely historical.  Muslims, on the other hand, continue to defend such extremism, apparently because they have no other choice.  There is no precedent in Islam to say that the teachings and the attitudes prevalent in Muhammad's time and place are no longer applicable.  Thus, Islam is frozen in the dark ages, and seems doomed to remain so.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but your response to the two Biblical passages was to describe them as "absolute Justice".  If that is the case, then I give up.  There is no response I can offer against that degree of intolerance.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 14 September 2012 at 12:31am
<>

Mr. Ron Webb, “Islam has frozen in the dark age” is your wishful thinking; too bad for you. All the man made law will fail. This is what will happen, as was prophecy in Isaiah 29. The God of Abraham (S) will send a book and it will and create a congregation that will unite all nations and be marvelous in our eyes and the “wisdom of the wise man will perish” (all the man made laws will perish).

12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, read this I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=isa+29%3A12&section=0&it=kjv&oq=isa%2029%3A12&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=isa&ng=29&ncc=29 - - KJV)

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammads_first_revelation - Muhammad (s) used to go up mountain cave, called Ghar-Hera, in Arabia (Mt. Paran) to meditate. While he was there an angel, later identified as Gabriel, commanded him saying: “read” and he respond by saying: “I am not learned,” the angel repeat the act three times, then Muhammad (S) began to repeat the command of the angel which became the first five verse of surah 96, Al-Alaq, of the Qur’an. 

Read: In the name of thy Lord who created. Created man from a clot. Read: and thy Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who taught by the pen, Taught man which he knew not. (Q.96:1-5)

 Allah conform it in the Quran:

Those who fallow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mention in their own (Scriptures), In the Taurat {Torah} and the Injeel (Gospel). (Q.7:157).

And thou (O Muhammad) was not (able) to recite a book before this (book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case indeed, would the talkers of vanity have doubted. (Q.29:48)

Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him. He was taught by one mighty in power. (Q.53:3-5)

Isaiah tell us why:

“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have remove their heart far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precept of men. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2029:13-19&version=9 - - Isaiah.29:13 ).

“Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.” (Isaiah29:14)

   Then He passes judgment on those who follow the man made law. He said:

“Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their work are in darkness, and they say, who Seeth us? And who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things up-side down shall be esteemed as the putter’s clay…” (V.15-16)

Man-made law does not and will not sanction by God. Those who created them and those who follow them are in total darkness.

He God Almighty informs us in the day when that seal book would have come the deaf will understand and the blind shall see, in other words who are blind they will recognize the truth.

And in that day shall the deaf hear the word of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord…(Isaiah.29:18-19)


<>

Jesus (s) described it as the kingdom of God:

Jesus said unto them (Jews), Did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders reject the same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord’s doings, and it is marvelous in our eyes. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2021:42-44&version=9 - - Matt.21:42 )

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall broken: but whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (Matt.21:44)

Jesus (S) said:

“Therefore say I unto you The kingdom of God shall taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=mt+21%3A43&section=0&it=kjv&oq=mt%2021%3A43&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=mt&ng=21&ncc=21 - - Matt.21: 43 )

  That nation is no other than Ishmaelite, Abraham’s (S) seeds. The God of Abraham’s promise to bless Abraham’s son Ishmael and make him a Great nation:

“And as for Ishmael…Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and multiply him exceedingly…and I will make a GREAT NATION.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:20&version=9 - - Genesis 17:20 ).

Br. zainool



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 14 September 2012 at 8:14am
<>

Originally posted by Ron Webb

There is a vast difference between "let him die" a natural death and not receive everlasting life, and actually putting him to death prematurely and violently.  But I agree that there are some equally horrific laws in the Christian Bible (mostly in the Old Testament) -- which is why I could never believe in such a god, much less worship or praise him.

 

Mr. Ron Wed, don’t try that with me! There is a big difference between “COMMANDMENT” to obeyed and your “OPINION”. “Let him die a natural death and not receive everlasting life” is that a COMMANDMENT the Jews have transgresses? Please explained to me the commandment.

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Br. zainool



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 September 2012 at 9:30am

It's not just my opinion, Br. Zainool.  Maybe there is a language barrier here, but let me assure you that "let him die" is fundamentally different from "kill him".  We all die a physical death eventually, so the Biblical passage obviously does not refer to that.  It refers to the promise of everlasting life beyond physical death, which is awarded to believers but denied to wrongdoers.



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 16 September 2012 at 7:40pm
<> l <>

Mr. Ron Web, It’s not a language barrier; it is your opinion you are trying to read into God’s “COMMANDMENT” to the Jews. If it means what you are saying it would not be a commandment for the Jews to obey instead it be a commandment for God to obey because he is the one who gives and takes eternal life. So, Think of another opinion again!

 

 

Br. zainool



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 6:09pm
Who said it had to be a commandment?  But I suppose it is, in the sense that the Jews are commanded (more like recommended, I think) not to worry too much about the soul of an unbeliever.  Don't try to interfere, or coerce, or argue or proselytise -- just let him die a natural death and suffer the consequences.  "(Live and let die."  Good advice, really.)

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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

<>

Mr. Ron Webb, “Islam has frozen in the dark age” is your wishful thinking; too bad for you. All the man made law will fail. This is what will happen, as was prophecy in Isaiah 29. The God of Abraham (S) will send a book and it will and create a congregation that will unite all nations and be marvelous in our eyes and the “wisdom of the wise man will perish” (all the man made laws will perish).

12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, read this I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=isa+29%3A12&section=0&it=kjv&oq=isa%2029%3A12&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=isa&ng=29&ncc=29 - - KJV)

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammads_first_revelation - Muhammad (s) used to go up mountain cave, called Ghar-Hera, in Arabia (Mt. Paran) to meditate. While he was there an angel, later identified as Gabriel, commanded him saying: “read” and he respond by saying: “I am not learned,” the angel repeat the act three times, then Muhammad (S) began to repeat the command of the angel which became the first five verse of surah 96, Al-Alaq, of the Qur’an. 

Read: In the name of thy Lord who created. Created man from a clot. Read: and thy Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who taught by the pen, Taught man which he knew not. (Q.96:1-5)

 Allah conform it in the Quran:

Those who fallow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mention in their own (Scriptures), In the Taurat {Torah} and the Injeel (Gospel). (Q.7:157).

And thou (O Muhammad) was not (able) to recite a book before this (book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case indeed, would the talkers of vanity have doubted. (Q.29:48)

Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him. He was taught by one mighty in power. (Q.53:3-5)

Isaiah tell us why:

“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have remove their heart far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precept of men. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2029:13-19&version=9 - - Isaiah.29:13 ).

“Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.” (Isaiah29:14)

   Then He passes judgment on those who follow the man made law. He said:

“Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their work are in darkness, and they say, who Seeth us? And who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things up-side down shall be esteemed as the putter’s clay…” (V.15-16)

Man-made law does not and will not sanction by God. Those who created them and those who follow them are in total darkness.

He God Almighty informs us in the day when that seal book would have come the deaf will understand and the blind shall see, in other words who are blind they will recognize the truth.

And in that day shall the deaf hear the word of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord…(Isaiah.29:18-19)


<>

Jesus (s) described it as the kingdom of God:

Jesus said unto them (Jews), Did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders reject the same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord’s doings, and it is marvelous in our eyes. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2021:42-44&version=9 - - Matt.21:42 )

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall broken: but whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (Matt.21:44)

Jesus (S) said:

“Therefore say I unto you The kingdom of God shall taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=mt+21%3A43&section=0&it=kjv&oq=mt%2021%3A43&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=mt&ng=21&ncc=21 - - Matt.21: 43 )

  That nation is no other than Ishmaelite, Abraham’s (S) seeds. The God of Abraham’s promise to bless Abraham’s son Ishmael and make him a Great nation:

“And as for Ishmael…Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and multiply him exceedingly…and I will make a GREAT NATION.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:20&version=9 - - Genesis 17:20 ).

Br. zainool



Greetings truthnowcome,

Isaiah 29 warrants a very close scrutiny, examination, and ponderance.

It is a message to the people of Jacob.

Jesus was the one who "turned things upside down"
Jesus is that "marvelous work and wonder" among "this people" [the people of Jacob]
and it is at Jesus' return that the deaf shall hear and the eyes of the blind be open (Isaiah 29:18)

Consider carefully what "book" may be being referred to.
'the people of the Book'?

Isaiah 29:13 speaks volumes

by whom is the fear towards God taught by the precepts of men?
who is it that draw near with with their words to honor God but whose hearts are far from Him?


My question;
What do you see as the end of all things?  Is killing going to accomplish God's purpose?  Does He want to see His creation killing one another... to see His creation perished and in hell?



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 September 2012 at 3:46pm
Caringheart,
birth, death and killing is something not limited to a time, place, race, religion, or any such thing.
The end is something else, it is the end of that time when each human who was to born live and avail his/her chance has done so. And it's knowledge is with God.
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Greetings truthnowcome,

Isaiah 29 warrants a very close scrutiny, examination, and ponderance.

It is a message to the people of Jacob.

Jesus was the one who "turned things upside down"
Jesus is that "marvelous work and wonder" among "this people" [the people of Jacob]
and it is at Jesus' return that the deaf shall hear and the eyes of the blind be open (Isaiah 29:18)

Consider carefully what "book" may be being referred to.
'the people of the Book'?

Isaiah 29:13 speaks volumes

by whom is the fear towards God taught by the precepts of men?
who is it that draw near with with their words to honor God but whose hearts are far from Him?


My question;
What do you see as the end of all things?  Is killing going to accomplish God's purpose?  Does He want to see His creation killing one another... to see His creation perished and in hell?

Caringheart, It seems to me you were not following me so i will give you the full explanation of which "book' and not a "MAY BY"! I AN NOT GUESSING HERE!
<>

ISAIAH 29: THE PROPHET THAT RECEIVES THE SEAL BOOK

  Isaiah tells us in ch.29:11-19 who received that “sealed Book” that mentioned in Rev. 10:2-4? “A little Book open…SEAL up those things…and write them not.”

In Isaiah 29, God Almighty was revealing to Isaiah a prophecy of the future tense, he said: add ye year to year”. Verse 1 to 7 was about a vision of two sets of people, one will be destroyed and one will be save; and Verse 8 to 21 mentioned of a book that is seal and it would be delivered to someone who do not know to how read and at that junction the God of the bible would close the eyes of the Jewish’s Prophets, ruler and seers [For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets, and your rulers, the seers. hath he covered.”  (Isaiah 29:10 KJV)]; and remove the wisdom of the wise man by created a world system that would be “marvelous in your eyes” [Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.” (Isaiah29:14)]; and He God Almighty mentioned in verse 18: “And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Also In Isaiah.28 which ties into Isaiah 29, God Almighty tells us how evil the Jews and their leaders will be: “But they (Jews) also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; the err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast.” Isaiah.28:7-9. That will happen in the future with yet another prophesy of the coming of Muhammad (S), He (S) was describes as “Mighty Strong One” in Isaiah.28:2. (See explanation of Isaiah 28 in Ch. 7)

v  ISAIAH 29

It begins:

1Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.

God Almighty is talking about the city where David (S) dwelt that is in Jerusalem in future tense (add ye years to years), Jerusalem will be unto God Almighty as Ariel  and He described what will happen to Ariel: 

2Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.

3And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.

4And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.

All those “thou and thee” suppose to referring to the “Jews” but the verse mentioned:

5Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.”

There God Almighty is talking about two sets of people in Jerusalem One will be like dust and the other will be as chaff passeth away; that is the multitude of thy strangers and the multitude of the terrible ones. Who are the strangers and who are the terrible ones? Only one set of people were to be save (the strangers) who are they? God Almighty shall bring his wrath on the “multitude of the terrible ones”:

6Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

I’ve repeat verse 5 to put the destruction in context:

Then “…the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.V5

In other words, God Almighty will destroy the “multitude of the terrible ones” with flames of devouring fire, earthquake and storm; they will be as chaff that passed away in an instant suddenly and on the other hand, “thy strangers” will remain there being like small dust.

   Who are the terrible ones and who are thy strangers? Let us find out.

It mentioned in verse7

“And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.” V.7

If all nations will fight against Ariel then who is Ariel or what is Ariel? It says in verse1-2

“Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices. 2Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel. V.1-2

God Almighty is talking about the city where David (S) dwelt that is in Jerusalem, it will be unto God Almighty as Ariel and God Almighty call Ariel “Her” in Verse 7: 7And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her…”

“Her” would have to be “thy stranger” and “Her” also refers to the “church” in the future tense. According to some Christian’s Scholars “woman” represents church and some says “woman” represents the Jewish’s nation and they were always addressed as “her”. Why in the Old Testament they were addresses as “her” was because the Church was with them. However, the woman represents the “church” and not the “Jewish nation!” I have already give a full explained in chapter 2.

Again if we look at Rev.12 verse 6 and14; and Rev.11 verse 4 both tied into each other and it reflects the meaning of the “WOMAN” as the Church. It mentioned:

“And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (Rev.12:6)  

“And to the woman were given two wingsthat she might fly into the wilderness, into her place where she is nourished for a time, and time, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (Rev.12:14)

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, And they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Rev.11:3-4)  

The evidence that the woman represents the church is that the woman was given “two wings” and fled into the wilderness for 1,260 days where the same period also reflect in Rev.11:4. Those “two wings” are the two witnesses, the two olive trees and two candles stick; and the Candlesticks represent churches: 

“…the seven candlestick which thou sawest are seven churches.” Rev. 1:20

So, we can conclude that the “woman” represents the “Church”

Also if we go to Revelation 19 and read verse 7-9 we would recognize that the woman represents the church. It mentioned:

“Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saint.” (Rev.19:7-8)

The saints that mentioned in Revelation 19:7-8 are the believers and they came fromher and she” which is referring to the “church” when the church would have well established for the coming of the Messiah. So we can see from that proof the “woman” represents the “Church” and not the Jewish’s nation.

 

 

Now, the “multitude of the terrible ones” was described as all Nations” who would be fight against the “church in the future” then God Almighty will destroy them with flames of devouring fire, earthquake and storm; when the destruction will come upon them verse 7- 8 mentioned the state in which they will be in:

“And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel… shall be as a dream of a night vision. 8It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.” V.7-8

You see it mentioned mount Zion that would be new mount Zion. This whole night vision would become a book that is seal, and it would be then given to an illiterate person and the church will be with his followers who will be like strangers in Jerusalem in the future. When all nations would fight against them suddenly the final destruction will come upon them.

V6Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

And the vision of all is become unto you as a word of a book that is SEALED, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2029:11-12&version=9 - (KJV)

12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, read this I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned. ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=isa+29%3A12&section=0&it=kjv&oq=isa%252029%3A12&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=isa&ng=29&ncc=29 - - Isaiah.29: 12 KJV)

CONTINUE....



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 10:12pm
<>

Just to elaborate, I would explain two points:

1)    Isaiah is having a vision of a book that is seal.

 

2)    When that seal book is given to someone who is learned they would not understand it.

  The Quran is a book that is seal. To understand it we have to use the explanation of Muhammad’s (S) which is His’ sunnah. Example: Quran tells us to pray but it does not explain how to performs it, we have to seek the explanation of The Prophet (S) that we call the sunnah. The sunnah is also a revelation from Allah (S) a brief explanation will suffice. 

 Allah (S) mentioned in the Qur’an:

Had not the Grace of Allâh and His Mercy been upon you (O Muhammad), a party of them would certainly have made a decision to mislead you, but (in fact) they mislead none except their own selves, and no harm can they do to you in the least. Allâh has sent down to you the Book (The Qur'ân), and AlHikmah (Islâmic laws, knowledge of legal and illegal things i.e. the Prophet's Sunnah - legal ways), and taught you that which you knew not. And Ever Great is the Grace of Allâh unto you (O Muhammad). (Qur’an11:3)

  Just to look at two points in that verse: Allah (S) has sent down two things the book and AlHikmah (wisdom) and He taught Muhammad (S) what he didn’t Knew before.

  Commenting on this verse Imam ash-Shaafi'ee's said:

"Allah has mentioned that 'the book' (Al-Kitaab) which is the Quran and he mentioned 'The wisdom' (al- Hikmah) and I have learnt from the people of knowledgr that  'al- hikmah' is the Sunnah of Allah's Messenger (S).........."

 

Allah tells us in the Quran16:64 

”And we have revealed the Book (al-kitaab) unto thee only that thou mayst explain unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.” (Quran16:64) 

    Exactly as Isaiah prophesy! Without the explanations (The Sunnah) “the one learned” would not understand it; and the book was given to an illiterate prophet saying: “Read”, and he would have to reply: “I am not learned”. Exactly, that is what happened to Muhammad (S) according history.

3)    "AND" the book is given to someone who is not learned.

 

4)    And he would say: "I am not learned."

     That seal book is the same one that mentioned in Revelation chapter 10 which I have already explained in chapter 5 which John did not wrote but is yet to come.

 Why God Almighty send the seal book with an unlettered Prophet? Isaiah (S) tells us:

“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have remove their heart far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precept of men. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2029:13-19&version=9 - - Isaiah.29:13 ).

   Because of what the Jews were doing The God of Isaiah closed your eyes of the Jewish prophets, and their rulers.

 “For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets, and your rulers, the seers. hath he covered.  (Isaiah 29:10 KJV)

 Remember God Almighty was talking to Isaiah and he addressing the Jews there for the follow the law of men instead of the law of God Almighty and they honor Him with their lips and not their heart so He closes prophet hood with them. It was also mentioned in Islam:

Adee ibn Haatim said: I heard Allah’s Messenger (pubh) recite: They (Jews and the Christian) took their Rabbis and their Monks to be their Lords beside Allah. (Q.9:31)

So I said, “O Messenger of Allah, they did not worship them,” so He (pbuh) said, “Verily if they {Rabbis and Monks} made something permissible for them, then they made it permissible and if they made something forbidden to them, they made it forbidden- that is their worship of them.” [Reported by at-Tirmidhee(5/278)]

Jesus (s) also conform the same thing in Matthew 15

15 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,

Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Their tradition is their man-made law, their opinions.

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;

And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Luke added in 7: 13:

13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. (Luke 7:13)

10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

   In other words, eating without washing of the hand is not from the word of God so doing it does not defiled you; and Jesus (s) said, it has to root out, not to be obeyed in verse 13:

12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

 

He then continued:

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

     Why unwashed hand defiled not a man? Because it is not of the law it is their opinion, their traditions: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?”13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. In other words, their tradition is not from God or the word of God and it should be obeyed. Same story mentioned in Mark 7:

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (Mark 7:7-9)

Note: I want to make one important point; Christians are using this passage to give them license to eat Pork and other unclean meat the law forbidden. Jesus (s) never give the green light to eat unclean meat in the passage, he give them green light to eat with unwashed hand because it is not from the law; eating of pork in against the law of God:  8 “And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase”. (Deut.14:8).

 

 After said that this is what the God Almighty said he will do when he would have sent that seal book:

“Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.” (Isaiah29:14)

   Then He passes judgment on the Jews who follow man made law, [and their fear towards me is taught by the precept of men. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2029:13-19&version=9 - - Isaiah.29:13 )]. He said:

“Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their work are in darkness, and they say, who Seeth us? And who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things up-side down shall be esteemed as the putter’s clay…” (V.15-16)

The Jews stop seeking God’s help and following all his law in totally, their leadership no longer sanctioned by God, they are in total darkness thinking God Almighty is not seeing them so they start changing the law of God with their own man-made law (turning things up-side down but every law they change will be none effect. 

He God Almighty then informs them in the day when that seal book would have come the deaf will understand and the blind shall see, in other words who are blind they will recognize the truth and only the unjust will reject the truth.

And in that day shall the deaf hear the word of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness. The meek also shall increase their joy in the Lord, and they among men shall rejoice in the Holy one of Israel. (Isaiah.29:18-19)

It mentioned there: “And in that day”. Which day? That is the day when that seal book would have delivered to the illiterate prophet then shall the deaf hear the word of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness and the meek shall increase their joy in the Lord.

Notice in verse 19 it mentioned there: they among men shall rejoice in the Holy one of Israel How suddenly the O.T arrived with the “Holy One of Israel” where as in Verse 10 the God of the O.T.  has poured out a spirit of deep sleep and closed the eye of the Prophets of the Jews? It is a contradiction! For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets, and your rulers, the seers. hath he covered.”  (Isaiah 29:10 KJV). The prophet-hood end there for the Jews. No illiterate Jewish prophet ever fulfill this prophesy until this day! That’s a concoction!

 He Allah (S) mentioned in the Qur’an when He said:

“O Children of Israel! Call to mind the (special) favors which I bestowed upon you, and I preferred you to all others (of your time period, in the past). (Q.2:47)

 BUT HE ALLAH (S) SAID, THE JEWS

…in that they broke the Covenant; that they reject the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right…Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy…That they REJECTED FAITH.” (Q.4:155-156)

 And this book came after Jesus (S), so it was given to the Comforter. Coming of that book the kingdom of God will be taken away from the Jews.

 

 

 

THE KINGDOM OF GOD SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY FROM THE JEWS.

Jesus said unto them (Jews), Did ye never read in the scriptures, the stone which the builders reject the same is become the head of the corner: This is the Lord’s doings, and it is marvelous in our eyes. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2021:42-44&version=9 - - Matt.21:42 )

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall broken: but whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (Matt.21:44)

  What is marvelous in our eyes? It is the message; it will bear fruit and be marvelous in our eyes. If you reject Jesus (S) you reject his message, and the stone “represent his message” Sure, Jesus (S) is not “marvelous in our eyes,” His message does, and whosoever tries to destroy that Message shall not succeed, and where so ever the message goes it will prevail. What Isaiah said? Let’s see how it falls in context with Isaiah 20: 14:

“Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.”(Isaiah 29: 14)

 Jesus (S) said:

“Therefore say I unto you The kingdom of God shall taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (Matt.21: 43)

  That nation is no other than Ishmaelite, Abraham’s (S) seeds. The God of Abraham’s promise to bless Abraham’s son Ishmael and make him a Great nation:

“And as for Ishmael…Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and multiply him exceedingly…and I will make a GREAT NATION.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017:20&version=9 - - Genesis 17:20 ).

That prophecy fulfilled with the arrival of Muhammad (S) who is a descendant of Abraham (S) true his son Ishmael (S). It isn’t true Muhammad (S) message bear fruit and creates a congregation that is marvelous in our eyes? Look at Mecca, the largest congregation on the face of the earth bringing people of all races and colour, the rich and the poor standing side by side shoulder to shoulder worshiping the one true God Allah (S)?

  In http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2042:16&version=9 - tells us that the Kedarites who is the descendants of Ishmael [13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations… Kedar…( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2025:13&version=9 - - Genesis 25:13 ) was in darkness and God Almighty will bring them from darkness to light.

Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the village that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock, let them shout from the top of the mountains. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2042:11&version=9 - - Isaiah.42:11 )  

“And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in the path that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them (Kedarites: Ishmaelite), and not forsake them.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2042:16&version=9 - - Isaiah 42:16 )

 God Almighty did not forget the Ishmaelite he brings them out of darkness into light, he lead them into a path they knew not with the advent of Muhammad (S).


YOU CAN DOWNLOAD ALL THE INFO HERE: <> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79252919/2My%20book.docx -

BR. ZAINOOL



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 10:16pm
<>

 THE SEALING OF THE BOOK AND THE OPENING OF THE SEAL BOOK

In the book of Daniel the God of the bible seal the understanding of all the messages in the scriptures on till the end time then he will reveal it or reveal all the truth. This is what the God Almighty says:

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel12:9-10&version=9 - - Daniel12: 9 )  

But thou, O Daniel, s*****p the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel12:4&version=9 - - Daniel 12:4 )

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. (Daniel12:10)

Coming of that “seal book” that mentioned in Revelation 10 is the “key” to unlock all the scriptures at the end time:

“But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall “begin to sound:” the “mystery of God should finish” as he declared to his servants the prophets.” (Rev.10:7)

  In the days when this little book shall revealall the mystery (all the truth) of God will finish (revealed).” The book was never written according to John: “seal up those things…and write them not.”

 All the truth with the coming of the Qur’an:

“… And We have sent down to you the Book (the Qur'an) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allâh as Muslims)”. ( http://www.al-sunnah.com/call_to_islam/quran/surah16.html - - Qur’an 16:89 )

Allah the almighty reminds the people who call themselves Christian of their forgetfulness:

“From those, too, who called themselves Christians We did take a Covenant, But they forgot a good part of the message that was sent down: So We stirred up enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. (Q.5:14)

This is what they have forgotten:

“And (remember) when 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: ‘O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allâh unto you confirming the Taurât [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.’ But when he (Ahmed i.e. Muhammad) came to them with clear proofs, they said: ‘This is plain magic.’” ( http://www.al-sunnah.com/call_to_islam/quran/surah61.html - - Qur’an 61:6-9 )

Then He Allah (S) said:

“O People of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that you used to hide in your Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a light [Muhammad (pbuh)] and a perspicuous Book.” (Q.5:15)

…So fear Allah, and obey me [Muhammad (S) and the message he brought]. (Q.3:50)

Verily this Qur’an doith guide to that which is most right. (Q.17:9)



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 September 2012 at 2:18pm
"The New Testament lies hidden in the Old, and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New."

speaking of 'keys'?


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 28 September 2012 at 9:15am
<>

If you had downloaded the message from this link: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79252919/2My%20book.docx -

You would have not responded with that your opinion. However let me introduce you to the truth.

Remember Jesus (s) message was to inform his followers of the prophet who will come after him with all the truth, this is what he [Jesus (S)] said:

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but what he hears.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%20%2016:12-13&version=9 - - John.16:12-13 )   

 “All the truth” will come with the arrival of the Comforter. Here in the Book of Revelation chapter 10 mentioned the coming of another Book which John did not wrote and . It is mentioned:

“And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven. 2-And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth. 3-And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voice. 4-And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from haven saying unto, seal up those things which the seven thunder utters, and write them not.” Rev.10:1-4

·       Point (1) Another Mighty Angel: Jesus (S) is not another mighty angel; it is Gabriel (s) the messenger of Allah who brought the message to and from Allah.

·       Point (2) He had in his hand a little book open: V.2 And he had in his hand a little book open:

·       Point (3) Seventh thunders uttered their voice (something was revealing): V.3...And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voice.

·       Point 4: John was about to write what was revealing: V.4-And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write:

·       Point 5: He was told to seal up the message and write them not: V.4…and I heard a voice from haven saying unto, seal up those things which the seven thunders utters, and write them not. (Rev.10:4)  

 The angel brought the little book and John was order “not to write down the message in that book,” because the time was not right. “So it is not the bible,” because the bible is a “written book” and it (the bible) is telling us about “another book.” Which book is that? 

Further as you read in Verse 7 it says:

“But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound: the mystery of God should finish as he declared to his servants the prophets. (Rev.10:7)

 In the days when this little book shall reveal all the mystery (all the truth) of God will finish (revealed). The book was never written according to the voice from Heaven: “seal up those things…and write them not.”

Now, “Begin to sound” mean “revealing” In the days when this little book shall reveal “all the mystery” (That is “all the truth”) of God will finish (revealed, no more mystery) as he declared to his servants the prophets.

 And this is what Jesus (S) said:

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but what he hears.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%20%2016:12-13&version=9 - - John.16:12-13 )   

 Therefore, the Spirit of Truth which is the Comforter would have to bring this little book which contains all the truth. 

 And in 10:4 it says: John was about to write… So when this Book will reveal “some one” will have to be there to “write the message down.” Allah has revealed to Muhammad (S):

“…And We have sent down to thee (O Muhammad) the book (the Qur’an) explaining all things, a guide, a mercy, and Glad Tiding to Muslims.” (Q.16:89)

“This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.” (Qur.10:37)

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. (Q.5:3)

Do not mistake this Book for the one that mentioned in Rev.5:1 “… A Book written within and on the back side, sealed with seven seals.”

That Book is already written and every time a seal open a certain event takes place. Example:

·        …when the lamb opened one of the seal…behold a white horse: he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%206:1-2&version=9 - - Rev.6:1-2 )

  That is the advent of Muhammad (S) it is also in Habakkuk 3:3-16.

“…And the Holy One from Mount Paran. Se-lah. His Glory covered the heaven, and the earth was full of his praise…When he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops.” (Habk.3:3-16)

Who is the Holy One from Mt. Param? The descendant of Ishmael’s:

“And he [Ishmael (S)] dwelt in the wilderness of Paran” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2021:21&version=9 - - Genesis 21:21

The advent of the crusaders:

 (Brackets added)

·       And when he had open the forth seal…a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him, And power was given unto him over the forth part of the earth (New world: the west), to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. Rev. 6:7-8

On the other hand, the book that mentioned in Rev.10:2-4, John was about to write and he heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up those thing…and write them not.” So when this Book will reveal some one will have to be there to write it down.

10-And I (John) took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and eat it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. (Rev.10:10)

 We know that John did not eat the book, he read the book and the truth was sweet but practicing the law was bitter.

11-And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many people, and nations, and tongues, and kings. (Rev.10:11)

  Why prophesy again? Because he had already went, so he has to go back again to inform them about the coming of the universal book that he did not wrote.

  Allah (S) mentioned:

We have not sent thee but as a (universal messenger) to all mankind…but most of mankind knew not”. (Q.34: 28)                                        

 

  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014&version=9 - : COMING OF THE UNIVERSAL BOOK

It is mentioned in the bible http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014:6-7&version=9 - - Rev.14: 6-7 :

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of haven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. Saying with aloud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014:6-7&version=9 - - Rev.14:6-7

Note: The word “gospel” is Good News”; in other words the angel was bringing the “everlasting Good News”. The everlasting Good News was yet to come; Jesus (S) gospel (Good News) could not be for all time. Jesus (S) already on earth with his gospel (Good News), he could not be the “another angel” with everlasting Good News. The everlasting Good News is the little book that mentioned in Revelation 10:1-11 another angel with a little book which John did not wrote but is yet to come; and the coming of it is clearly stated in Revelation 14:7

“…another angel fly in the midst of haven, having the everlasting Good News…” Rev. 14:7

That means, the everlasting Good News have to come from Heaven having an angel bringing it.

It says in verse 7:

“Fear God and Give Glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come!”

Not the Day of Judgment, because the angel was bringing what? The “everlasting Good News to preach; it was a judgment to preach” and that was the Criterion: the standard way of judgment between right and wrong. In other words, coming of the everlasting Good News then Judgment will come.

This is what mentioned in the Qur’an:

Blessed is He who sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong) to His Servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures.” (Q.25:1)

“Thus have We revealed it (the Qur’an) to be a judgment of authority in Arabic” (Q.13: 37)

Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and Judgment (Between right and wrong). (Qur’an 2:185)

“This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.” (Qur.10:37)

Say, the Holy Spirit (Angel Gabriel) has brought the revelation from thy Lord in truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a guide, and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (Q.16:102)

A book, whereof the verses are explained in detail-A Qur’an in Arabic, for people who understand-Giving Good News and admonition: yet most of them turn away, and so they hear not. (Q.41:3-4)

Without doubt it is (announced) in the reveled books (Torah, Gospel) of former people. (Q.26:196)

And this is a book which We have sent down, bringing blessing and conforming (the revelation) which came before it. (Q.6:92)

…it is no less than a Message for all creatures (mankind and jinn). (Q.12:104)

…so fear Allah and obey me. (Q.3:50)

ye who believe! Fear Allah as He should fear, and die not except in a state of Islam. (Q.3:102)

And glorify Him morning and evening. (Q.33:42)

Thus have We revealed it (the Qur’an) to be a judgment of authority in Arabic (Q.13: 37)

 What Revelation 14-7 says? It says:

Fear God and Give Glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come!”

Not the Day of Judgment, the Criterion: the standard way of judgment between right and wrong.

And Jesus (S) said: 

“And when he (the Comforter) is come he will reprove the world of sin, and righteous, and judgment.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2016:8&version=9 - - John.16:8

  Adding further, when Judgment comes the Comforter will used it to reprove the world (Gentiles) and the Comforter has to be a “person.” according to http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2042:1-4&version=9 - - Isaiah 42:1-4

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentile.” 3-A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax he shall he not quench: he shall bring forth Judgment unto truth. 4- He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he has set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for His LAW.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2042:1-4&version=9 - - Isaiah 42:1-4

For the LAW was given by Moses… ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:17&version=9 - - John.1:17 )

Moses (S) was a law giver and here the Comforter is a new law giver!

 After the coming of the universal Rev.14:12 say:

“…here are they that keep the commandment of God, and the faith of Jesus…”

That conforms that the “Everlasting Good News” is the commandment of God, the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong), and the true teaching of Jesus (S) which is his faith.

Also in verse 13 after that book the everlasting Good News which is the universal commandment of God would have come and all those who follow it and died after they will be blessing for their labor and work and they will be judge by it.

…Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord henceforth yea, said the Spirit, that they may rest from their labor; and their work do fallow them. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014:12-13&version=9 - - Rev.14:13 )

…and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the book, according to their works. (Rev. 20:12)

…and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev.20:13)

 

This is what Allah (S) said:

Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding there sustenance in their Lord…The (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve.” (Q.3:169-1700)

“Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger” [The Qur’an, 17:15],

“On the day when every soul will be confronted with all the good it has done, and all the evil it has done, it will wish there were a great distance between it and its evil. But Allah cautions you {to remember} Himself.” (Q.3:30)

 

To my Christian’s brothers and sisters, Allah (S) has given you the noble call to save you from eternal damnation, He (S) said:

O ye People of the Book! Believe in what We have (now) revealed, conforming what was (already) with you…” (Q.4: 47)

Truth has (now) come, and falsehood perished: for falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish. (Q.17:81)

THEN HE (S) WARNS:

Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,-on them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse,”



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 September 2012 at 2:25pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

 



Greetings truthnowcome,

Goodness, I hardly know where to begin....
Here is what I know...

First, Jesus did not speak of a prophet to come...
He told His disciples that after He was taken up, the Comforter... the 'Spirit of Truth'... would come to His disciples... that He would not leave them alone...
to His disciples... a spirit, not a person... not a prophet.
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Then;
“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentile.” 3-A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax he shall he not quench: he shall bring forth Judgment unto truth. 4- He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he has set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for His LAW.” Isaiah 42:1-4
This whole passage of scripture refers to Jesus...

Compare with;
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.  (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, 2 Peter 1:17, Psalm 2)
Jesus had, and is, that Holy Spirit of God.  It is His to give, and He sent the Holy Spirit... the Comforter... to His disciples once He had gone.
--------------

Lastly;
“And I saw another angel fly in the midst of haven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. Saying with aloud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come.” Rev.14:6-7
Having is not the same as bringing...
This passage says that the angel has the gospel...
as we already have the Gospel...
'to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people...'

The angel having it also, does not mean the angel is bringing anything new that has not already been given.  It simply means the angel will also have it at the time when the Messiah returns.

and 'the little book' referred to in Revelation 10, of which "Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings"?
could this be referring to the Gospel?  the Book with the sweet taste of honey but bitter to the stomach?  the Book which too many have chosen to forget or ignore?  so it must be prophesied again?

Salaam,
Caringheart


"The New Testament lies hidden in the Old, and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New."

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (Revelation 10)


(This of course is all according to my own understanding as revealed to me) Heart


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 8:30pm
<>

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome

 



Greetings truthnowcome,

Goodness, I hardly know where to begin....
Here is what I know...

Peace!

Caringheart, I will give you a chance to defend your position, I will deal with the Comforter first.

 

Originally posted by Caringheart


First, Jesus did not speak of a prophet to come...
He told His disciples that after He was taken up, the Comforter... the 'Spirit of Truth'... would come to His disciples... that He would not leave them alone...
to His disciples... a spirit, not a person... not a prophet.

Now, lets look at those verses Jesus (S) spoke of the Comforter.

Jesus Said: “…I will pray to the father, and he shall give you "another" comforter that he may abide with you for ever. even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for “he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.” (John http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A16&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2014%3A16&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14 - In that verse Jesus (S) assuring his disciples he is going to pray and ask his Father (His God: “…my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:16-17%20&version=9 - AKJV)) to send “another” Comforter which is with the Father in Heaven (“Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is expedient for you that ‘I go’ for if ‘I go not away’, the comforter will not come unto you, but if ‘i depart’, i will send him unto you.” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+16%3A7&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2016%3A7&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=16&ncc=16 -

 

It is the Father that has to give them the other Comforter and not Jesus (S) (and “he” shall give you "another" comforter) and this Comforter has to come from Heaven.

 

The verse continue:even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for “he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.” (John http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A16&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2014%3A16&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14 - If this Comforter is in Heaven how suddenly he dwelleth with them?

 

TNC



-------------
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

<>
 “even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for “he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.” (John http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A16&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2014%3A16&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14 - If this Comforter is in Heaven how suddenly he dwelleth with them?

TNC



Greetings TNC,

I must be brief.

Jesus was referring to Himself... He is the Spirit that dwelleth with his Apostle's that the world knoweth not... and He promises that He first must go that the Spirit may return and dwell within them[the Apostles].

the Spirit of Truth... Truth... God.. Father, Son, Holy Spirit


We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit.  Surah 2:87



Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome

<>
 “even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for “he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.” (John http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A16&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2014%3A16&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14 - If this Comforter is in Heaven how suddenly he dwelleth with them?

TNC



Greetings TNC,

I must be brief.

Jesus was referring to Himself... He is the Spirit that dwelleth with his Apostle's that the world knoweth not... and He promises that He first must go that the Spirit may return and dwell within them[the Apostles].

the Spirit of Truth... Truth... God.. Father, Son, Holy Spirit

<>

Peace my friend.

I will be brief too!

Jesus (S) said (and this is before he left): “...as my father hath sent me, even so i send you (the disciple) and when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost.” (john.20:21-22)

Did Jesus (S) bread himself into the disciples here?

 

TNC



-------------
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 11:35pm
Greetings TNC,

"receive ye the holy ghost."

I needed to correct one mistake there... the word receive.

But yes, it is understood that the disciples received the Spirit of God, as Jesus had the Spirit of God, that they also would be able to do the miracles which Jesus had done.

The Spirit of God is a thing that has the ability to live in each one of us, if we are given to receive it.

Spirit is spirit.

I don't know if that helps.
Blessings,
Caringheart


It has been said that;
The earliest Christians experienced the Holy Spirit as a rush of wind that opened them to understanding one another as never before.


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 03 October 2012 at 12:19am
Peace Caringheart.

The word "received" is a typo mistake, understood!

<>

No, I think you are not coming straight. You said: “Jesus is the Holy Spirit that dwell with the disciples”. He then breathes into the disciples the Holy Spirit. I want to know if Jesus (S) breads himself into the disciples.

 

TNC




-------------
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 October 2012 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

Peace Caringheart.

No, I think you are not coming straight. You said: “Jesus is the Holy Spirit that dwell with the disciples”. He then breathes into the disciples the Holy Spirit. I want to know if Jesus (S) breads himself into the disciples.

TNC



Greetings TNC,

I'm sorry I was responding to this;
Jesus (S) said (and this is before he left): “...as my father hath sent me, even so i send you (the disciple) and when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost.” (john.20:21-22)

Did Jesus (S) bread himself into the disciples here?

TNC
and I thought you were asking if Jesus 'breathed' the Holy Spirit into the Disciples.

If you truly mean the word 'bread' I am assuming you are referring to the last supper?  Where Jesus breaks bread and says "this is My body which will be given up for you"?
So are you asking if eating the bread is receiving the Spirit of Jesus?
It is what Jesus said... "when you eat this bread and drink this cup"
Are you asking if I, personally, take it literally?  Others do.  I, personally, am not sure.  Do I believe we come into communion with God?  Yes, but what that means individually I believe is open to interpretation and according to each individual's experience.

Again, I don't know if that helps.  Smile

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 04 October 2012 at 10:51pm
<>

Peace Caringheart,
 I always misspell words, the word there I meant was "breathe" not breads. However, Let me go over it again.

 

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome

<>
 “even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for “he dwelleth with you and shall be in you.” (John http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A16&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2014%3A16&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14 - TNC


You said:


Greetings TNC,

I must be brief.

Jesus was referring to Himself... He is the Spirit that dwelleth with his Apostle's that the world knoweth not... and He promises that He first must go that the Spirit may return and dwell within them[the Apostles].

the Spirit of Truth... Truth... God.. Father, Son, Holy Spirit


We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit.  Surah 2:87

 

In that post you said: “Jesus (S) is the Spirit that dwelleth with his Apostle…”

That is the reason I ask: “when Jesus (S) breathed on to the disciples if he breathed himself unto them”

Jesus (S) said (and this is before he left): “...as my father hath sent me, even so i send you (the disciple) and when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost. (john.20:21-22)

Did Jesus (S) bread himself into the disciples there?

In the post below you change the tone, you said: “…Jesus had the Spirit of God...”

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings TNC,

But yes, it is understood that the disciples received the Spirit of God, as Jesus had the Spirit of God, that they also would be able to do the miracles which Jesus had done.

The Spirit of God is a thing that has the ability to live in each one of us, if we are given to receive it.

Spirit is spirit.

I don't know if that helps.
Blessings,
Caringheart

It has been said that;
The earliest Christians experienced the Holy Spirit as a rush of wind that opened them to understanding one another as never before.

I know what is the Spirit of God, but you have to make up your mind If Jesus (S) is the Spirit that dwelleth with the disciples or if was the Spirit of God.

 

I am waiting, Peace!

 

TNC



-------------
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 October 2012 at 11:10am
Originally posted by truthnowcome

<>
I know what is the Spirit of God, but you have to make up your mind If Jesus (S) is the Spirit that dwelleth with the disciples or if was the Spirit of God.

I am waiting, Peace!

TNC

 
Greetings TNC,
 
This is easy to explain.
I am not going to quote your entire post as it will only be confusing to others, but I hope that you and I may follow.  Smile
 
Jesus did/does have the Spirit of God within Him... and to His apostles, while on earth He is that Spirit of God that is with them.  As far as breathing on them... again I correct where you typed 'received', the word is 'receive' as you already acknowledged(I only mention it again for clarity here... to make sure we are understanding each other.  Smile)... Now I do not take this to mean that His apostle's received the Holy Spirit at that time, as the Gospels tell me that the Holy Spirit came to the apostles at Pentacost... after Jesus had risen, just as Jesus had said, the Holy spirit could not, and would not, come until He had gone.  This is how I understand.
 
Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 09 October 2012 at 10:42am
<>

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome


I know what is the Spirit of God, but you have to make up your mind If Jesus (S) is the Spirit that dwelleth with the disciples or if was the Spirit of God.

I am waiting, Peace!

TNC

 

Greetings TNC,

 

This is easy to explain.

I am not going to quote your entire post as it will only be confusing to others, but I hope that you and I may follow.  mile

 

Jesus did/does have the Spirit of God within Him... and to His apostles, while on earth He is that Spirit of God that is with them.  As far as breathing on them... again I correct where you typed 'received', the word is 'receive' as you already acknowledged(I only mention it again for clarity here... to make sure we are understanding each other.  mile)... Now I do not take this to mean that His apostle's received the Holy Spirit at that time, as the Gospels tell me that the Holy Spirit came to the apostles at Pentacost... after Jesus had risen, just as Jesus had said, the Holy spirit could not, and would not, come until He had gone.  This is how I understand.

 

Salaam,

Caringheart

 

Peace unto you!

So what they received there? <>

It says in John.20:21-22 “...As my father hath sent me, even so I “send” you (the disciple) and when he had said this, he breathe on them, and said unto them, “received ye the Holy Ghost.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.20:21-22&version=9 - - (John.20:21-22 ).

They were then sent to go and remit sins:

“Whosesoever sins ye (The disciples) remit, they are remited unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:23&version=9 -   Did they remit sins empty handed?

tnc



-------------
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 09 October 2012 at 11:03am
<>

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome


I know what is the Spirit of God, but you have to make up your mind If Jesus (S) is the Spirit that dwelleth with the disciples or if was the Spirit of God.

I am waiting, Peace!

TNC

 

Greetings TNC,

 

This is easy to explain.

I am not going to quote your entire post as it will only be confusing to others, but I hope that you and I may follow.  mile

 

Jesus did/does have the Spirit of God within Him... and to His apostles, while on earth He is that Spirit of God that is with them.  As far as breathing on them... again I correct where you typed 'received', the word is 'receive' as you already acknowledged(I only mention it again for clarity here... to make sure we are 

Salaam,

Caringheart

Caringheart, there is a big difference between “WITH him” and “HE is”

If the spirit of God is with him and he is the Spirit of God then what you are implying is that Jesus is with Jesus.

 

So this verseI saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus.

Which one is really Jesus (S)?

thc



-------------
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 October 2012 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by truthnowcome














<>
<span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt;"></span><span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt;">I know what
is the Spirit of God, but you have to make up your mind If Jesus (S) is the
Spirit that dwelleth with the disciples or if was the Spirit of God.</span>

<span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt;">I am
waiting, Peace!</span>



<span style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11pt;">TNC</span>









 
Greetings TNC,
 
This is easy to explain.
I am not going to quote your entire post as it will only be confusing to others, but I hope that you and I may follow.  [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />
 
Jesus did/does have the Spirit of God within Him... and to His apostles, while on earth He is that Spirit of God that is with them.  As far as breathing on them... again I correct where you typed 'received', the word is 'receive' as you already acknowledged(I only mention it again for clarity here... to make sure we are understanding each other.  [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />)... Now I do not take this to mean that His apostle's received the Holy Spirit at that time, as the Gospels tell me that the Holy Spirit came to the apostles at Pentacost... after Jesus had risen, just as Jesus had said, the Holy spirit could not, and would not, come until He had gone.  This is how I understand.
 
Salaam,
Caringheart

Caringheart,
you said above: "Jesus did/does have the Spirit of God within Him... and to His apostles, while on earth"
This is in contrast to what you said once before. Remember when we were talking about John 16:12“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14“He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15“All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you." At that point you were saying that this refers to the coming of the holy spirit. Now you are saying that while on earth Jesus and the apostles had that Spirit with them. In fact you are saying that Jesus was that Spirit!
So now beside creating more problems, it disproves your own thoughts before that the Holy Spirit was the one that the above verses say will come.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 October 2012 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by honeto



Hasan


Greetings,

I really hate when people confuse my words when I think I have been quite clear.  I will say it again.

The Holy Spirit whom Jesus referred to while He was with His apostles was Himself... the Holy Spirit was in Jesus... remember the Spirit of God... the dove... which descended upon Jesus when John the Baptist baptized Him? 
Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to His apostles after He was gone from the earth... that the Holy Spirit could not come into them while He was still here on earth, but when He was gone they would not be left alone... that when He was gone he would send that Spirit[of Himself] to them, to indwell them.

While with them in the flesh, Jesus was that Holy Spirit of God.
Once he was gone the Holy Spirit came into the Apostle's at pentacost.

No confusion.
Is it a mystery?  Yes. 
Mystery is not the same as confusion.

Salaam


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 October 2012 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome


Caringheart, there is a big difference between “WITH him” and “HE is”

If the spirit of God is with him and he is the Spirit of God then what you are implying is that Jesus is with Jesus.

So this verseI saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus.

Which one is really Jesus (S)?

thc



Greetings TNC,

Your question made me think of this:

"Will the "real" Jesus please stand up."  Sorry just my humor. LOL

Anyway,
"... there is a big difference between “WITH him” and “HE is”

Truly there is not.
The Spirit of God was with Him, and He was, and is, that Spirit of God.

This goes to understanding the Holy Trinity, which I have as yet to be able to explain and make clear to any Muslim.  It must be a mystery revealed to the mind only by God himself.
They are all one and the same... Father(Creator God), Son(Father in the flesh, conceived as the Son), and Holy Spirit(the spirit of God).
Just as a three leaf clover has three leaves, but they are all part of one clover.

"So this verse “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus."

The flesh was flesh before God sent the Spirit(the power of God), at baptism.  Did Jesus perform any miracles before receiving the Spirit, the power of God?  Until then He was flesh with divine knowledge but without the power.

This is the way I understand.
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 October 2012 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

 

Peace unto you!

So what they received there? <>

It says in John.20:21-22 “...As my father hath sent me, even so I “send” you (the disciple) and when he had said this, he breathe on them, and said unto them, “received ye the Holy Ghost.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.20:21-22&version=9 - - (John.20:21-22 ).

They were then sent to go and remit sins:

“Whosesoever sins ye (The disciples) remit, they are remited unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:23&version=9 -   Did they remit sins empty handed?

tnc



Greetings TNC,

Ok, so I have taken time to look up the passage.  This was after Jesus had risen and came back and appeared to His disciples, so yes, I guess it is referring to the Disciples receiving the Holy Spirit from Jesus so that they could begin their ministry.
This is one of the differences in the accounts of how the Holy Spirit was received.  I guess it depends on how it was described by the Apostles themselves and how it was later interpreted and recounted.  Remember that there were accounts being told in different places changing languages and so language would have an impact on how it was translated.  You know how sometimes there just isn't a word in one language that describes another word in another language?  Sometimes it is hard to convey meaning when changing languages.  This was the way John conveyed the meaning of the Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit from Jesus.

Remember I am no academic.  This is purely from my own studying and understanding.  I am not taking from any 'expert' interpretation, only what God has given me to understand.  This is just me and my own understanding. Smile

Blessings to you,
Caringheart


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 October 2012 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto

Hasan
Greetings,I really hate when people confuse my words when I think I have been quite clear.  I will say it again.The Holy Spirit whom Jesus referred to while He was with His apostles was Himself... the Holy Spirit was in Jesus... remember the Spirit of God... the dove... which descended upon Jesus when John the Baptist baptized Him?  Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to His apostles after He was gone from the earth... that the Holy Spirit could not come into them while He was still here on earth, but when He was gone they would not be left alone... that when He was gone he would send that Spirit[of Himself] to them, to indwell them.While with them in the flesh, Jesus was that Holy Spirit of God.Once he was gone the Holy Spirit came into the Apostle's at pentacost.No confusion.Is it a mystery?  Yes.  Mystery is not the same as confusion.Salaam


Caringheart,
so you are now saying that Jesus was also the "Holy spirit" when he was with the disciples? That's what you are saying when you said:" The Holy Spirit whom Jesus referred to while He was with His apostles was Himself... the Holy Spirit was in Jesus."
That creates a couple of more questions at least, I will ask only one at this time the second one after you clearify:
1-So at that time two persons of the "Trinity" were on earth, one being the "Holy Spirit" and other being the "Jesus, Son of God" according to you?
If that was the case, whatever is coming out of Jesus' mouth, is it both speaking combined or is it Jesus the son of God, or God the Holy Spirit talking?
I want your clear answer to that question so I can proceed.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 October 2012 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto

Hasan
Greetings,I really hate when people confuse my words when I think I have been quite clear.  I will say it again.The Holy Spirit whom Jesus referred to while He was with His apostles was Himself... the Holy Spirit was in Jesus... remember the Spirit of God... the dove... which descended upon Jesus when John the Baptist baptized Him?  Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to His apostles after He was gone from the earth... that the Holy Spirit could not come into them while He was still here on earth, but when He was gone they would not be left alone... that when He was gone he would send that Spirit[of Himself] to them, to indwell them.While with them in the flesh, Jesus was that Holy Spirit of God.Once he was gone the Holy Spirit came into the Apostle's at pentacost.No confusion.Is it a mystery?  Yes.  Mystery is not the same as confusion.Salaam


Caringheart,
That creates a couple of more questions at least, I will ask only one at this time the second one after you clearify:
1-So at that time two persons of the "Trinity" were on earth, one being the "Holy Spirit" and other being the "Jesus, Son of God" according to you?
If that was the case, whatever is coming out of Jesus' mouth, is it both speaking combined or is it Jesus the son of God, or God the Holy Spirit talking?
I want your clear answer to that question so I can proceed.
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

I say this most respectfully to you.  You and I have gone over the understanding of the Holy Trinity so many times that I don't wish to keep going over it with you.
I only engaged TNC because he was interested and we had not as yet discussed it.
But because my time and energy is limited, I don't wish to go around in circles on the subject.  I believe it has to be revealed by the Spirit of God and He reveals it to those with open hearts to receive it.  You can always read back through some of our earlier conversations.  Smile
To give an answer to your question though, because you have most respectfully asked;
"1-So at that time two persons of the "Trinity" were on earth, one being the "Holy Spirit" and other being the "Jesus, Son of God" according to you?
If that was the case, whatever is coming out of Jesus' mouth, is it both speaking combined or is it Jesus the son of God, or God the Holy Spirit talking? "
They are one and the same.  Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
I wonder if you would read the book The Shack, if that would help illuminate the relationship, as I thought it did a very good job of doing when I read it.

My sincerest wishes for you Hasan,
Caringheart


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 9:30pm
<>

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome

 

Peace unto you!

So what they received there? <>

It says in John.20:21-22 “...As my father hath sent me, even so I “send” you (the disciple) and when he had said this, he breathe on them, and said unto them, “received ye the Holy Ghost.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.20:21-22&version=9 - ).

They were then sent to go and remit sins:

“Whosesoever sins ye (The disciples) remit, they are remited unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:23&version=9 -

  Did they remit sins empty handed?

tnc



Greetings TNC,

Ok, so I have taken time to look up the passage.  This was after Jesus had risen and came back and appeared to His disciples, so yes, I guess it is referring to the Disciples receiving the Holy Spirit from Jesus so that they could begin their ministry.
This is one of the differences in the accounts of how the Holy Spirit was received.  I guess it depends on how it was described by the Apostles themselves and how it was later interpreted and recounted.  Remember that there were accounts being told in different places changing languages and so language would have an impact on how it was translated.  You know how sometimes there just isn't a word in one language that describes another word in another language?  Sometimes it is hard to convey meaning when changing languages.  This was the way John conveyed the meaning of the Apostles receiving the Holy Spirit from Jesus.

Remember I am no academic.  This is purely from my own studying and understanding.  I am not taking from any 'expert' interpretation, only what God has given me to understand.  This is just me and my own understanding. mile

Blessings to you,
Caringheart

 

Peace my friend Caringheart,

 

Now you are in serious troble because you are guessing to prove nothing.

 

Here in John16: 7 Jesus (S) said: “Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is expedient for you that ‘I go’ for if ‘I go not away’, the comforter will not come unto you, but if ‘i depart’, i will send him unto you.” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+16%3A7&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2016%3A7&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=16&ncc=16 - - John 16:7 )

 

Jesus (S) laid a “condition” for the Comforter to come and that is, “He has to go to the Father before the Comforter comes” but according John.20:21-22 they deciples received the Holy Spirit before he leave:

...as my father hath sent me, even so I send you (the disciple) and  when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost.” (John.20:21-22)

Now, which account is correct? You don’t have to be an academic to recognize that.

 

 

tnc



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 21 October 2012 at 10:21pm
<>

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by truthnowcome

Caringheart, there is a big difference between “WITH him” and “HE is”

If the spirit of God is with him and he is the Spirit of God then what you are implying is that Jesus is with Jesus.

So this verseI saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus.

Which one is really Jesus (S)?

thc



Greetings TNC,

Your question made me think of this:

"Will the "real" Jesus please stand up."  Sorry just my humor. OL

Anyway,
"... there is a big difference between “WITH him” and “HE is”

Truly there is not.
The Spirit of God was with Him, and He was, and is, that Spirit of God.

This goes to understanding the Holy Trinity, which I have as yet to be able to explain and make clear to any Muslim.  It must be a mystery revealed to the mind only by God himself.
They are all one and the same... Father(Creator God), Son(Father in the flesh, conceived as the Son), and Holy Spirit(the spirit of God).
Just as a three leaf clover has three leaves, but they are all part of one clover.

This is the way I understand.
Caringheart

Peace to you,

Caringheart don’t bring that crap to me about “Holy Trinity is a mystery to reveal by God Himself”. That is an excused when there is no explanation for  1+1+1 =1 !

If Father is the Creator God, and Son is Father in flesh well then the Father in flesh has no Power. He said: “I can of mine own self do nothing…” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.5:30&version=9 - - John.5:30 )

Also the Father in flesh has a God:

 

“…Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:16-17%20&version=9 - - John 20:16-17 AKJV)

 

According to him, his Father is “OUR GOD and HIS GOD; He has a GOD, He said: “MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.”

What a great mystery!

tnc

 

Originally posted by Caringheart


"So this verse “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven... and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Will imply that Jesus abode upon Jesus."

The flesh was flesh before God sent the Spirit(the power of God), at baptism.  Did Jesus perform any miracles before receiving the Spirit, the power of God?  Until then He was flesh with divine knowledge but without the power.

This is the way I understand.
Caringheart

When Father God was in flesh he has no power he was a powerless God until he get help from Father Creator God; Father Creator God “SEND” Father Spirit God to help Father flesh God; what a mystery to revealed! And the three are one!

 

Caringheart there is no mystery about God and his Messengers. Let me show you what you don’t know about the message you claimed to believe.

 

Jesus (S) A FAITHFUL witness back there in the beginning:

“John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “HIM” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “AND” FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE; V.5 “AND” from Jesus Christ, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS…” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:4-5&version=9 - -5

 

  As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty: GRACE BE UNTO YOU, AND PEACE, FROM ‘HIM’ WHICH IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME”;

then the seven Spirits which is before the throne: “AND FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE;

and then Jesus Christ who is a Faithfull witness: “AND FROM JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS”.

If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. So the One, which is, which was and which is to come is “GOD ALMIGHTY” because God Almighty existed as he is, He was here when Adam was created on earth; and is yet to come in the end. In Rev. 1: 8 mentioned that! He is the ALMIGHTY:

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%201:8&version=9 - - 8  

The seven spirits were before the ALMIGHTY GOD’S THRONE and JESUS (S) WAS A “FAITHFUL WITNESS”. In Revelation 4: 2-11 and 5:1-7 mentioned who was on the Throne:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%204&version=9 -

And immediately I (John) was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and ONE SAT ON THE THRONE. Rev. 4:2

 

The one that sits on the throne is God!

And he that sat WAS TO LOOK UPON LIKE A JASPER and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. Rev.4:3

 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Rev.4:4 

And out of the throne preceded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning BEFORE THE THRONE, WHICH ARE THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD. Rev.4:5  

 

THE SEVEN SPIRIT IS BEFORE THE THRONE AND NOT ON THE THRONE; THEY ARE NOT PART OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, Rev.4:9

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11

THE ONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE:

Revelation 5

And I saw in the right hand of “him that sat on the throne” a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. Rev.5:1

The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what he did with it? Let’s find out.

And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Rev.5:5

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6

And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev.5:7

You see that? The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what happen with the book? The lamb took it. So, who took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne? The Lamb! And who is sitting on the throne? God Almighty!

Nothing new! It’s all in Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. Rev.1:1

“For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49)

And who was Jesus (S)? Revelation 1:5 says:

“Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness!

And who is God Almighty? He is the “creator”:

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.  Rev.4:11

And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,” Rev.4:9 

 

The God of the O.T. has (Holy) Spirits by the thousand. It is mentioned in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%204:5-6&version=9 - - Rev.4:5

“And out of the throne preceded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, WHICH ARE THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%204:5-6&version=9 - - Rev.4:5

And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts FULL OF EYES before and behind. Rev.4:6 

What are these eyes? They represented Spirits:

…AND SEVEN EYES, which are the SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were FULL OF EYES WITHIN: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.  Rev.4:8

EYE REPRESENTS “SPIRIT” AND THOSE SPIRITS ARE SPIRITS FROM GOD ALMIGHTY AND THEY ARE HOLY. WHAT ARE THEY DOING? THEY ARE PRAISING GOD ALMIGHTY SAYING: “HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, LORD GOD ALMIGHTY”.

THIS IS A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF INFORMATION COMING MY FRIEND!

So we can see God Almighty has Holy Spirits by the thousands! The Spirit (Ruh) and the angels will stand forth in front of Allah (S):

Ø  يَوْمَ يَقُومُ الرُّوحُ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ صَفًّا لَّا يَتَكَلَّمُونَ إِلَّا مَنْ أَذِنَ لَهُ الرحْمَنُ وَقَالَ صَوَابًا (78:38)

Yawma yaqoomu alrroohu waalmalaikatu saffan la yatakallamoona illa man athina lahu alrrahmanu waqala sawaban (Qur’an 78:38)

“The Day that the spirit and the angels will stand forth in ranks, none shall speak except any who is permitted by (Allah) Most Gracious, and He will say what is right.” (Qur’an 78:38)

 

tnc



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 October 2012 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

...as my father hath sent me, even so I send you (the disciple) and  when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said unto them, received ye the holy ghost.” (John.20:21-22)

Now, which account is correct? You don’t have to be an academic to recognize that.

tnc



Greetings TNC,

I tried to answer this, but perhaps I did not do so clearly.
The verse that you are quoting was from when Jesus was with his Apostle's after He had been resurrected.  He had gone.

Do I even find it confusing?  Yes.  But I do not expect to understand all that is God.  Jesus had gone, and returned, that is all that I know.  The Apostle's (who were many) testified to His return, and the events of His return, and of His ascending.

Salaam,
Caringheart

[notes:  Do you ever wonder about the Ka'aba transporting itself to Jerusalem?   Do you believe a rock tried to go with Muhammad to heaven?  Do these things make sense?]



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 October 2012 at 11:56am
Caringheart,
so you realize your position, so its time to play!
Haha.
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 26 October 2012 at 7:26pm
<>

Peace to you Caringheart,

It must confuse for you because you don’t want to accept the truth. I have established above that the Creator is God Almighty; and the Spirit (Ruh) and Jesus (S) is God’s creations.

Jesus (S) A FAITHFUL witness back there in the beginning:

“John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “HIM” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “AND” FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE; V.5 “AND” from Jesus Christ, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS…” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:4-5&version=9 - -5

  As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty: GRACE BE UNTO YOU, AND PEACE, FROM ‘HIM’ WHICH IS, AND WHICH WAS, AND WHICH IS TO COME”;

then the seven Spirits which is before the throne: “AND FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHICH ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE;

and then Jesus Christ who is a Faithfull witness: “AND FROM JESUS CHRIST, WHO IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS”.

If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. So the One, which is, which was and which is to come is “GOD ALMIGHTY” because God Almighty existed as he is, He was here when Adam was created on earth; and is yet to come in the end. In Rev. 1: 8 mentioned that! He is the ALMIGHTY:

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%201:8&version=9 - - 8  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.  Rev.4:11

The seven spirits were before the ALMIGHTY GOD’S THRONE and JESUS (S) WAS A “FAITHFUL WITNESS”.

tnc




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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 26 October 2012 at 8:10pm
<>

Well, it seems to me you don’t know anything at all! You just guessing!

Let me show you what you need to know:

 

In the N.T. in John 16:16 (KJV) Jesus (s) told his disciples:

 

A little http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3397 - - while, http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532 - - and ye http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2334 - - shall http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3756 - - not http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2334 - - see http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3165 - - me: http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532 - - and http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3825 - - again, a little http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3397 - - while, http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2532 - - and ye shall http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3700 - - see http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3165 - - me, http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3754 - - http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1473 - - http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5217 - - http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4314 - - the http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3962 - - John 16:16 (KJV)

In the “New International Version” they remove part of the verse “because I go to the Father”

"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2016&version=31 -

 You see that! They remove this last part of the verse http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3754 - - http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1473 - - http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5217 - - http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4314 - - the http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3962 - - WHY? They knew the implication that is why they removed it! “going to the father” Christians understand it to mean “the death and resurrection”.

Let us read it in context, Jesus (S) said:

“…A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2016&version=9 -  (KJV)  
 

Then some of the disciples were enquiring what he meant:

17Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, “Because I go to the Father?”
 18They said therefore, “What is this that he saith” A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

Now, Jesus (S) explained: 

19Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, “A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?”

 In V.20to 32, Christians understood it to mean “the death and resurrection”. So, when he said:Because I go to the Father” that is referring to his death. It read as follows:

20Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

 21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

22And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.  

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

 33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Which “hour” he is talking? The “hour” of “going to the Father”

  In that chapter, Christians understand “Because I go to the Father” to mean “the death and resurrection”. We Muslims understand it to mean the sign that was promised to the Jews when he said:

“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the wale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:40&version=9 - - Matt.12:40

Did Jonas die in the wale belly? No! He [Jesus (S)] went to Geth-sem-a-ne and pray asking God Almighty to change the situation.

And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:35-39&version=9 - - Matt.26:35-39

Notice, he fell on his face and PRAYING to his God asking him to change the situation? Yes! And what happen next? His God send an angel to help him.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:43&version=9 - - Luke 22:43 )

Another point, he said: “My soul” and not “flesh”, not his human side “flesh” but his spiritual side “soul.” His soul was exceeding sorrowful even unto death, he fears death. Which God will fear death? According to the writings of the bible, The Father God was in him and with him in the same John 16: verse 32 and also john14:10.

Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am “not alone,” because the Father is “with me”. (John 16: 32)

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (John 14:10) 

If the Father is “with him and in him”, what is the purpose of “sending an angel?” Do angels strengthen God? Or why the angel has to strengthen Jesus (S) when all power was given unto him?

"...All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18)

The angel was assuring him what is going to happen. Did God Almighty answer his prayers? Let us examine what Jesus (S) has to say because all the disciples fled from the scene.

And they all forsook him and fled. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=14&verse=50&version=9&context=verse - - Mark 14:50 )

 

AFTER THE SUPPOSE CRUCIFIXION:

And when she (Mary Magdalene) had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and she knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener... ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:14-15&version=9 - - John 20:14-15 )

  Mary knew Jesus (S) all through his ministry and within a day and a half she did not recognize him, she took him for a gardener, why? Is it another man “the gardener” God Almighty substitute instead of Jesus (S) and place a spirit (Rooh) upon him to act as Jesus (S)? I suppose, if a Christians saw the so call photo of Jesus (s) now and after twenty years they would recognize it, is that a fact? O Yes! Even the disciples did not know him:

“…But the disciples knew him not that it was Jesus.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2021:4&version=9 - - John 21:4

Why? Because it was not him! Qur’an conforms that:

But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture… (Q.4:157)

   Mary didn’t recognize him nether the Disciples. As the Qur’an rightly said: “There are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge”

Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme... (Q.3:55)

  The question is when did it happen? Is it possible when Jesus was at Gethsemane, because all the disciples were asleep which also indicate it was night too (see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%20%2026:40&version=9 - ) and that is where they laid hold on him (the supposed Jesus the Gardiner) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%20%2026:57&version=9 - . May be, Allah (S) has placed a Spirit (Rooh) on him (the gardener) to act as Jesus (S). Of course, it was night and no one had that in mind [that Allah (S) will replace him with another man “the gardener” who Mary recognizes as. 

  Allah (S) said:

“And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planner is Allah! (Q.3:54)

   To be more certain it is not Jesus (S) we can look at the accounts of John when they were about to capture him:

   It is mentioned in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2018:1-8&version=9 - - John 18:1-8

V1When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with the disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a “GARDEN,” into which he entered, and his disciples.

V.3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

V.4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?

V.5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus said unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

V.6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, the went backward, and fell on the ground.

V.7 Then ask he them again, whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

V.8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way.

  There you can see how Christians miss the boat. They did see that his enemy didn’t “recognize” the man to be Jesus (S).

 They were asking for Jesus of Nazareth, Why? Because he was not there! V.4 says that: “Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth and said unto them, whom seek ye?”  Think about it, Jesus was asking them “whom seek ye?” and what they said? V.5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth.” why? Because they didn’t recognize him as Jesus (S) and he was just in front of them, and the suppose Jesus “the gardener” according to Mary in John 20:15 where she supposing him to be the gardener said: “I am he”. And what happen after that? V.6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell on the ground. Why? They were shock to know that they man whom they were looking for was right in front of them and they fall back, because they didn’t recognize him. AGAIN when he asks them in Verse7 they insisted “Jesus of Nazareth” why again? Because they didn’t recognize him to be Jesus (S), but the supposed Jesus the gardener insisted “I am he,” and in V. 8 he said: “I have told you that I am he more emphasis add here, why? Because they didn’t recognize him as Jesus (S), and also where they caught him? In the “garden,” and what Mary said? “She supposes him to be the gardener.” Coincident!

 You see! He look like a “gardener” and was caught in the “garden”, And they didn’t “recognize” him. It was not him!

 

I've established that:

 

1- Mary didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why?

2- The Disciples didn't RECONIZE HIM, Why?

3- And also when Judas and his band went to capture him they didn't RECONOZE HIM, Why?

4- They captured him in the GARDEN,

5- And Mary took him for a GARDENER.

 And Allah (S) said:

“That the rejected Faith; That they utter against Mary a grave false charge; That they said (in boast): We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so, and those who differ therein are full of doubt with no (certain) knowledge, but they follow only conjecture, for a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him (Jesus) before his death; And on the Day of Judgment he (Jesus) will be a witness against them.” (Q.4:156-159)

  to be continue...

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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 26 October 2012 at 8:14pm
<>

Now the answer to your contention:

Jesus said unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and said unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. Jesus said unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God. ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+20%3A17&section=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2020%3A17&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=20&ncc=20 - - KJV)

 Remember he told the disciples:

“A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.” (John 16:16)

 And Christians understand it to mean that, he will die and resurrect; But the suppose Jesus is telling Mary he did not go to the father (died) as yet but go and tell them he did, “I http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=305 - - ascend ” all ready died. 

 

But the Devil is quick to draw the vial over your eyes in changing “I ascend” to “I will go”, I am returning. See other translations and compare it with the KJV. That is wher you got your idea from:

Allah (S) said:

For of a surety they killed him not. (Q.4:157)

Now, please don’t tell me that he was going up in the sky because he was speaking to Mary on the earth and he said, “Say unto them, I ascend unto my Father.” He was just there in front of her.  

 Paul testified that Jesus (S) did not die:

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%205:7&version=9 - - Hebrews 5:7 )

 To what extend he prayed? He said:

“…My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death... And he went a little farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:35-39&version=9 - - Matt.26:28-29 )

  Also in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:43-44&version=9 - - Luke22:44

“And being in agony, he prayed more earnestly; and his sweet was, as it were, great drop of blood falling to the ground. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2022:43-44&version=9 - - Luke22:44

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Luke 22:43)

The angel assured him that God Almighty has answered his prayers:

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%205:16&version=9 - - )

You see that! Paul knew, that why he confessed:

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him (God Almighty) that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%205:7&version=9 - - Hebrews 5:7 )

He knew the truth, he confesses that he lied:

He said: “If the truth of God is more abundant in my lies why should I call a sinner?”

In other words, if he tells some lies to bring people to God he should no call a sinner.

  Even some of the Jews knew that he didn’t died, but what they did not know is that, he was the suppose Jesus the gardener. Read for yourself:

62“Now the next day… the chief priest and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, 63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

64Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: So the LAST ERROR SHALL BE WORSE THAN THE FIRST ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew.27:62-64&version=9 - - Matt.27:62-64

  They are talking about FIRST ERROR and LAST ERROR. What is the first error? They knew that they didn’t kill the suppose Jesus.

  Jesus, interestingly, told the Pharisees too:

“go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice” [Matthew 9:13].

 We all agree that Jesus Christ (S) was a righteous and a pious man and the O.T. says that the wicked will take his place: “In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared" [Psalm 9:16],

 

"The wicked is a ransom for the righteous, And the treacherous is in the place of the upright” [Proverbs 21:18],

 

and "The righteous is delivered from trouble, But the wicked takes his place" [Proverbs 11:8].

Who say that? The God of theof the Jews!

  Last point, what is a resurrected body? Let Jesus tells us:

“…For they are equal unto the angels,” Luke 20:27-27

 Meaning, that they will be Angelised, they will be Spiritualized, they will be Spirit! As to regards the suppose Jesus:

“Behold my hand and feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see: for a SPIRIT has no flesh and bone, as you see me have. (Luke 24:39-40)

If Christ be not risen from the dead, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=I%20Corinthians%2015:14&version=9 - - I Corinthians15:14 ) <>

So your Idea of “gone to the father and return” has no weight. Again, If the disciples received the Holy Spirit before Jesus (S) left then why he laid the “condition” that “he first have to go to the Father then the Comforter will come”? The answer is, you don’t know it is a mystery for you.

tnc



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 October 2012 at 10:02pm
Peace to you too TNC,
I told you at the outset that I have never been able to explain the Trinity to any Muslim, and that is ok.  I've shared with you what I could.  I see no point in argument.
I know, what I know, what I know,
for it is revealed through Jesus,
and I know that you do not accept it,
and I accept that.

Did you skip over the notes I left at the bottom of my post?
I would be interested in your reply to that, and your explanation.
Caringheart


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 28 October 2012 at 8:40pm
Peace my friend.

Concerning your note, I never heard of any such thing, but of the rock there are reports of Jinn speak true images (Idol). We were told the children of Israel worship the calf because it MOO!

 tnc


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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 October 2012 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

Peace my friend.

Concerning your note, I never heard of any such thing, but of the rock there are reports of Jinn speak true images (Idol). We were told the children of Israel worship the calf because it MOO!

 tnc


Greetings TNC,

It is apparently part of Islamic teaching that the Ka'aba will be transported to Jerusalem when the Mahdi comes.

Apparently there is a rock in Jerusalem that the Muslim pilgrims try to touch because it is said to have the handprint of Muhammad in it where it clung to Muhammad wanting to go with him when he left this earth.

Just something I saw when watching a program on Jerusalem and the people that go on pilgrimage to that place.  The sacredness to the three Abrahamic faiths.

Salaam,
CH Smile


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 October 2012 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Peace to you too TNC,I told you at the outset that I have never been able to explain the Trinity to any Muslim, and that is ok.  I've shared with you what I could.  I see no point in argument.I know, what I know, what I know,for it is revealed through Jesus,and I know that you do not accept it, and I accept that.Did you skip over the notes I left at the bottom of my post?I would be interested in your reply to that, and your explanation.Caringheart


Caringheart,
why would one (you) then preach something you are unable to even explain, let alone to understand?
You can only explain something you know and understand.
Don't you know what you believe? or you just do it because you saw others do it jsut because they saw others do it and so on.
TNC has laid out a pretty clear evidence in front of you from your own scripture. He did a lot of hard work, and may God Almihghty reward him for that, to show you something that makes sense and showed you the truth of the matter. I hope you quit using excuses or changing subjects rather benefit from truth revealed to you. Do not trun your back to the truth. Remember it is only the truth that will truly give you direction, God loves truth only.
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 October 2012 at 8:21pm
Hasan,
Because people keep asking, I try to explain but they must be enlightened by the Holy spirit to receive the message, and I do not control that.
salaam

Who is it that (really) twists the words of others?
I have never done this with anything you have had to say.
'let those with eyes to see, see'
__________________________

“If you keep to my teaching 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” - the words of Jesus


[note:  if you haven't noticed TNC and I are ok with each other.  That is called respect.  He has his belief and I accept that.  I have mine.  I hope he accepts that.  Not being able to explain it to one another does not diminish the belief of either one of us.]


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Hasan,Because people keep asking, I try to explain but they must be enlightened by the Holy spirit to receive the message, and I do not control that.salaamWho is it that (really) twists the words of others?I have never done this with anything you have had to say.'let those with eyes to see, see'__________________________“If you keep to my teaching 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” - <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">the words of Jesus[note:  if you haven't noticed TNC and I are ok with each other.  That is called respect.  He has his belief and I accept that.  I have mine.  I hope he accepts that.  Not being able to explain it to one another does not diminish the belief of either one of us.]

Caringheart,
if you do not know how to explain that the earth is round, why would you try to teach it to others?
If you do not know how to explain Trinity, why would you become a stooge in front of others by trying to explain and convince them.
You say Jesus is God and equal to God. We have shown you he is not. Instead he has a God, even according to your own book. Do you not trust your own book?
John 20:17 "...Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” Jesus has a God.
Why are you so scared to set yourself free by proclaiming that truth, are you scared of an outcast in your own community, is that all? It will be right to know, accept and love Jesus (pbuh) for what he was, as the above verse states and not for what he was not.
Quran 19:35 Such was Jesus the son of Mary a statement of truth about which they vainly dispute.
And if you cannot know or explain Trinity, then you should keep it to yourself if not abonden it, so you don't decieve others because if you do, not only your own but their sins will be on you!
Hasan



-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 November 2012 at 4:06pm
@Hasan,

Because I am not 'trying to convince' anyone.  That is not my job to do.  That is God's.

"... people keep asking, I try to explain but they must be enlightened by the Holy spirit to receive the message, and I do not control that."

I know, what I know, what I know.
and that is all that matters.

Because you can not understand, does not mean I have not explained.  It simply means you do not understand.  Just as I do not understand your belief.

Salaam



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