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CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672
Printed Date: 19 April 2014 at 3:43pm


Topic: CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES
Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 9:04am
Matt 10:5-6)
Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."



Replies:
Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 1:15pm
Assalamu alaika Mahdi.


You are correct. The only Islam at that time was the Islam of Moses. Jesus son of Maryam was a prophet in maintaining the law of Moses and also a messenger for simplifying the Law of Moses.

Friendship


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 31 August 2012 at 9:13pm

You need to read the Bible in context not just take one verse in isolation. Jesus' ministry before his death, resurrection and ascension was primarily to the Jews, though far from being restricted to them. After these events he sent out his disciples, whom he had thoroughly prepared, into all the world with his message of good news of salvation by grace (Mt 28:18-20, etc). That is why Jesus knows, when he hears that the Greeks are pressing to see Him (Jn 12:20-22), that his hour of death is imminent (12:23-24, 27). For Jesus must suffer, die and be glorified before his universal message of salvation (12:32) can be carried to the Gentile world.

 

Jesus ministers to the gentile Canaanite woman and her daughter (Mt 15:28 = Mk 7:29-30), he tells his disciples that they will witness before Gentiles (Mt 10:18).

 

Moreover, though his ministry was primarily to Jews it was not confined solely to them. Jesus did journey into the Gentile areas of Tyre, Sidon, and the Decapolis (a mostly Gentile area); spent time in the half Jew, half Gentile province of Samaria (Mk 7:24, 31; Lk 9:52; Jn 4:4-5); and he did minister to non-Jews

 

Jesus spoke positively of, healed, and preached to some Samaritans (who were half Jew and half Gentile) - Lk 9:51-56; 10:29-37; 17:11-19; Jn 4:1-42.

He sent his twelve disciples to a Samaritan village to prepare things for his visit there (Lk 9:52). He sent the Gadarene demoniac to preach in the Decapolis (Mk 5:18-20).

He healed Gentiles and taught at least a few Greeks - Mt 4:23-25; 8:5-13 = Lk 7:2-10; Mt 15:27-28 = Mk 7:28-30; Jn 12:20-22. The Gadarene demoniac, whom Jesus healed, was probably also a Gentile, as he resided in an area where pigs were raised and came from the mostly heathen area known as the Decapolis - Mt 8:28-34 = Mk 5:1-20.

 

Of the few compliments he gave ,three were to non-Jews - Mt 8:10 = Lk 7:9; Mt 15:28; Lk 17:17-19. Cf Mt 11:7-11 = Lk 7:24-28; Mt 18:4; 26:10,13; Jn 1:47.

 

He often accused the Jews of having less faith than the Gentiles, and spoke of God's special care for the Gentiles - Mt 3:9 (the words of John the Baptist); Mt 10:15; Mt 11:21-24 = Lk 10:12-15; Mt 12:41-42 = Lk 11:30-32; Mt 21:42-43; Lk 4:25-30.

 

He cleansed the temple at least partially for the sake of the Gentiles - Mk 11:17. Cf Is 56:6-7; Jer 7:11.

 

 According to Jesus' own words, his mission is universal:

a.His death is meant to accomplish the redemption of all mankind - Mt 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32; etc.

b.His gospel message was to be preached to all mankind - Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8.

c.His kingdom includes people of all nations - Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52.

9.The genealogy of Jesus includes two Gentile woman, Rahab and Ruth (Mt 1:5). Also the magi from the east played a major part at the birth of the new born king (Mt 2:1-12). Thus both his lineage and the signs accompanying his birth intimate that his future ministry would impact all nations.

10.According to Old Testament prophecy, the mission of the Christ was to be universal - Gn 12:3; Is 2:2; 9:1; 40:5; 42:1,4 = Mt 12:18,21; 49:6; 60:1-3; Mc 4:1-5; 5:4; Zc 9:9-10; etc.

 

C.Is to the Jew first then to the Gentiles

Is 49:5-6; Lk 24:47; Ac 1:8; 3:25-26; 11:15-18; 13:46-48; Ro 1:16; 2:9-11; 15:8-9.

 

 

 Besides dosn't the Quaran confirm Jesus as to all peoples ? for example -

 

 1.Jesus is a sign to all peoples - 19:21 (al-nas, cf 7:158); 21:91 (al-Aalameen, cf 21:107). Cf 2:124; 43:46-47.

2.Jesus is held up as an example for the Arabs - 43:57.

3.The Bible is for all mankind - 3:3-4, 187; 6:89-91.



Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 01 September 2012 at 2:53pm
Assalamu Alaaika Experiential


It is not every one claiming to be a follower of Muhammad understood that the holy Qur'an is a compendium of the only Fundamental Message from Allah to human beings. To this I prefer to mention the Torah rather than the Bible for the Bible ideally does not contradict the Torah. It is however make certain Laws simpler or in tune with the necessities of that time.
I read the Torah and its commentary and also the Bible with its commentary by Reverend Mathew Henry. If I translate the contents into Arabic there is that Fundamental Message in the exegesis of the Muslim scholars. It is not disallowed for one to refer to historical facts in previous Messages in explaining what is in the holy Qur'an. There are verses in the Qur'an describing the Torah as a message to mankind. But because of misunderstanding, most followers of Muhammad do not see to that reality.
The difference is only in the mode of worship clearly mentioned in the holy Qur'an. Do you know that the average time spent in observing the five obligatory prayers is not above one hour? This is the time Jesus spent in his prayer!
It is impossible to get the followers of Muhammad to the Straight Path without the People of the previous Message challenging them. There is no point of talking not putting what one believes in practice. This is the sickness of the followers of Muhammad Rasulullah.

Friendship.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 01 September 2012 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by Friendship

It is not disallowed for one to refer to historical facts in previous Messages in explaining what is in the holy Qur'an.
 
The exact opposite would be true, for that which is contained in previous scriptures for the ummah of Prophet Mohammad is not believed or disbelieved unless confirmed by the Quran.  ("We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us." (2.136))  Quran is explained by Quran, Hadith, companions of the Prophet, and companions of companions.  Therefore it is not disallowed for Muslims to refer to Quran in explaining or clarifying historical events in previous scriptures. 


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 01 September 2012 at 10:22pm
Assalamu alaika Abuayisa.


There are guidelines set by Allah in tackling such issues. I am sure you know them. Even those issues are to be explained by them not by the followers of Muhammad Rasulullah. For example, the Levi clan in Medina refused to believe in Muhammad not because he is not a prophet, but because he is not from them. You have not right of accusing the other tribes.
There are four such issues:
1. Their rejection of the angels Gabriel  Harut and Marut.
2. Ezra as the son of Allah.
3. Allah taking the angels and females as partners.
4. The question of Jesus son of Maryam.
For example the Samaritans have their own version of the Torah. The Bible of Barnabas is also different from others. There is consensus on the teaching of Jesus by his believers. Then we have the Sabians and Zoroastrians etc.
A careful analysis of the behaviour of the followers of Muhammad reveals an assimilation of such misunderstandings and disputes in his Sunna. Look at the Shiites for example! Lokk at those who call themselves ahl-al-sunna but  not having s caliph and praying according to the manner they like. Just imagine the behavior during the fasting season. You cannot call such people disbelievers. They believe that hey are not disbelievers. So what is the rational of calling those with previous scriptures disbelievers? It is only Allah with that right. We only narrate to them how Allah described them.

Friendship. 




Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 1:31am
Thank you Friendship.
I think I have demonstrated to Mahdi that Jesus is for all people - not just the Jews.


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 2:11am
Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">You need to read the Bible in context not just take one verse in isolation. Jesus' ministry before his death, resurrection and ascension was primarily to the Jews, though far from being restricted to them. After these events he sent out his disciples, whom he had thoroughly prepared, into all the world with his message of good news of salvation by grace (Mt 28:18-20, etc). That is why Jesus knows, when he hears that the Greeks are pressing to see Him (Jn 12:20-22), that his hour of death is imminent (12:23-24, 27). For Jesus must suffer, die and be glorified before his universal message of salvation (12:32) can be carried to the Gentile world.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Jesus ministers to the gentile Canaanite woman and her daughter (Mt 15:28 = Mk 7:29-30), he tells his disciples that they will witness before Gentiles (Mt 10:18). <O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Moreover, though his ministry was primarily to Jews it was not confined solely to them. Jesus did journey into the Gentile areas of <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><ST1:CITY w:st="on">Tyre</ST1:CITY>, <ST1:CITY w:st="on">Sidon</ST1:CITY>, and the Decapolis (a mostly Gentile area); spent time in the half Jew, half Gentile <ST1:PLACE w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">province</ST1:PLACE> of <ST1:PLACENAME w:st="on">Samaria</ST1:PLACENAME></ST1:PLACE> (Mk 7:24, 31; Lk 9:52; Jn 4:4-5); and he did minister to non-Jews <O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Jesus spoke positively of, healed, and preached to some Samaritans (who were half Jew and half Gentile) - Lk 9:51-56; 10:29-37; 17:11-19; Jn 4:1-42.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">He sent his twelve disciples to a Samaritan village to prepare things for his visit there (Lk 9:52). He sent the Gadarene demoniac to preach in the <ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Decapolis</ST1:PLACE> (Mk 5:18-20).<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">He healed Gentiles and taught at least a few Greeks - Mt 4:23-25; 8:5-13 = Lk 7:2-10; Mt 15:27-28 = Mk 7:28-30; Jn 12:20-22. The Gadarene demoniac, whom Jesus healed, was probably also a Gentile, as he resided in an area where pigs were raised and came from the mostly heathen area known as the <ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Decapolis</ST1:PLACE> - Mt 8:28-34 = Mk 5:1-20.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Of the few compliments he gave ,three were to non-Jews - Mt 8:10 = Lk 7:9; Mt 15:28; Lk 17:17-19. Cf Mt 11:7-11 = Lk 7:24-28; Mt 18:4; 26:10,13; Jn 1:47.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">He often accused the Jews of having less faith than the Gentiles, and spoke of God's special care for the Gentiles - Mt 3:9 (the words of John the Baptist); Mt 10:15; Mt 11:21-24 = Lk 10:12-15; Mt 12:41-42 = Lk 11:30-32; Mt 21:42-43; Lk 4:25-30.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">He cleansed the temple at least partially for the sake of the Gentiles - Mk 11:17. Cf Is 56:6-7; Jer 7:11.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">According to Jesus' own words, his mission is universal:<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">a.His death is meant to accomplish the redemption of all mankind - Mt 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32; etc.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">b.His gospel message was to be preached to all mankind - Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">c.His kingdom includes people of all nations - Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">9.The genealogy of Jesus includes two Gentile woman, Rahab and Ruth (Mt 1:5). Also the magi from the east played a major part at the birth of the new born king (Mt 2:1-12). Thus both his lineage and the signs accompanying his birth intimate that his future ministry would impact all nations.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">10.According to Old Testament prophecy, the mission of the Christ was to be universal - Gn 12:3; Is 2:2; 9:1; 40:5; 42:1,4 = Mt 12:18,21; 49:6; 60:1-3; Mc 4:1-5; 5:4; Zc 9:9-10; etc.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">C.Is to the Jew first then to the Gentiles<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Is 49:5-6; Lk 24:47; Ac 1:8; 3:25-26; 11:15-18; 13:46-48; Ro 1:16; 2:9-11; 15:8-9.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman">



</O:P>
</SPAN>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </O:P></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Besides dosn't the Quaran confirm Jesus as to all peoples ? for example -<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">1.Jesus is a sign to all peoples - 19:21 (al-nas, cf 7:158); 21:91 (al-Aalameen, cf 21:107). Cf 2:124; 43:46-47.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">2.Jesus is held up as an example for the Arabs - 43:57.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">3.The Bible is for all mankind - 3:3-4, 187; 6:89-91.<O:P></O:P></SPAN>

UNLESS YOU WERE BORN ONE, YOU will never be a part of the house of Israel, no matter how many verses you quote.




Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 2:33am
Originally posted by Experiential

Thank you Friendship.
I think I have demonstrated to Mahdi that Jesus is for all people - not just the Jews.


Mathew 10 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 5:38am
Assalamu alaik Abuayisa.

Yes indeed so. Thus he cannot be more than a man. I do not know why the Jews do not believe in him.

Mustapha






Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 1:31pm
Isaiah
42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 10:42pm
King James Bible
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 3:40am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Isaiah42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Jesus did not say this.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 1:21pm
I'm pretty sure Christians know that they are not "Israelites" but they were "grafted in' to the family of God.
They do not need to be Israelites.
Do Muslims need to be Israelites to belong to God?
So I'm not really sure the point of the thread. ?


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Thank you Friendship.
I think I have demonstrated to Mahdi that Jesus is for all people - not just the Jews.


Mathew 10 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
Mahdi
it appears you did not read my last post carefully enough. Again you cannot quote one verse in isolation from the whole Tanakh (Old testament) and Injil. Initially Jesus ministry was to the Jews and later to the whole world. Read -
Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8. 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32, Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52.
 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

Isaiah42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.

Jesus did not say this.
 
I know He did not.  This is the prophesy of Isaiah.


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

I'm pretty sure Christians know that they are not "Israelites" but they were "grafted in' to the family of God.
They do not need to be Israelites.
Do Muslims need to be Israelites to belong to God?
So I'm not really sure the point of the thread. ?


Jesus came for Israelites. Christians claim him for themselves. You do not see the point? Only israelites should be concerned with Jesus.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 September 2012 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

I'm pretty sure Christians know that they are not "Israelites" but they were "grafted in' to the family of God.
They do not need to be Israelites.
Do Muslims need to be Israelites to belong to God?
So I'm not really sure the point of the thread. ?


Jesus came for Israelites. Christians claim him for themselves. You do not see the point? Only israelites should be concerned with Jesus.


Isaiah 42
A covenant for 'the people'
A light for (all) the nations

I can also defer to Experiential:
"first to the Jews, later to the Gentiles"


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 06 September 2012 at 4:56am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

I'm pretty sure Christians know that they are not "Israelites" but they were "grafted in' to the family of God.
They do not need to be Israelites.
Do Muslims need to be Israelites to belong to God?
So I'm not really sure the point of the thread. ?


Jesus came for Israelites. Christians claim him for themselves. You do not see the point? Only israelites should be concerned with Jesus.


Isaiah 42
A covenant for 'the people'
A light for (all) the nations

I can also defer to Experiential:
"first to the Jews, later to the Gentiles"
[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="middle" />


If Jesus says one thing and other people claim different, i have to take Jesus' word.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 September 2012 at 7:21pm
I am deferring to experiential where he says;
"Read -
Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8. 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32, Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52."
 
Have you read any of what Jesus had to say of which he referred you to?
 
You would also have to read the acts of the apostles to understand how the message of Jesus was taken to include the gentiles.
Heart


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 September 2012 at 10:04am
Originally posted by Caringheart




I am deferring to experiential where he says;
"Read -
Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8. 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32, Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52."
 
Have you read any of what Jesus had to say of which he referred you to?
 
You would also have to read the acts of the apostles to understand how the message of Jesus was taken to include the gentiles.
[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />



Acts of the Apostles was written by Paul who started this Judo-Pagan new religion called Christianity. He has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh) nor God. He is a liar and an agent for the Roman Empire.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 September 2012 at 11:54am
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Acts of the Apostles was written by Paul who started this Judo-Pagan new religion called Christianity. He has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh) nor God. He is a liar and an agent for the Roman Empire.


Your latest conspiracy theory.  Unhappy


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 September 2012 at 2:42pm
John 17
18 As thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I set myself apart, that they also might be set apart through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one:

23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I have known Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent Me.

26 And I have declared unto them Thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them. [Holy Spirit]


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 09 September 2012 at 3:16am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart




I am deferring to experiential where he says;
"Read -
Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8. 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32, Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52."
 
Have you read any of what Jesus had to say of which he referred you to?
 
You would also have to read the acts of the apostles to understand how the message of Jesus was taken to include the gentiles.
[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />



Acts of the Apostles was written by Paul who started this Judo-Pagan new religion called Christianity. He has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh) nor God. He is a liar and an agent for the Roman Empire.


Abu Loren
Your facts are wrong. The Acts of the Apostles was written by Luke, not Paul. Further more as I mentioned in my other post to you Paul was a Jew. Isa was a Jew. Isa's friends – Peter, James, Judas etc were Jews.
Paul and the other Injil authors lived at the time of Isa. Mohammad did not and did not understand the Jewish traditions. He lived more than 600 years after Isa, Paul and the others so Mohamads version is not reliable.
Further more Paul was executed by the Roman Empire you seem to think he was an agent for. So what you say dosn't make sense.
If you are worried about pagan religion I suggest you show more concern for the pagan rock you bow to every day and try to kiss why you do the Haj.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 10 September 2012 at 3:28am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Your latest conspiracy theory.  Unhappy
 
It is not a conspiracy theory but FACT. Jesus did not come to start a new religion, "he came for the lost sheep of Israel". The 'gentiles' were not invited to a new covenent until Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) started his mission. The Holy Qur'an was revealed as a guide and Mercy to humanity.
 
1+1+1 = 1
 
Paul 'saw' Jesus (pbuh) after about twenty years after his 'crucifixion'. The funny part is that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified but was taken up to heaven bodily. Furthermore, Paul started to argue with the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh) namely his beloved disciple Peter. So this tells me that 1+1+1 =3.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 September 2012 at 3:47pm
"20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word
21 That they all may be one"

The words of Jesus.

Muhammad got his ideas from the Word of Jesus.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 2:05am
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

There is no ideas in what Allah revealed to Muhammad. It is Revelation/Inspiration from Allah. Muhammad will say exactly what Jesus said, with the permission of Allah. Where did Jesus get his ideas? Are you saying that the Torah is the idea of Moses and the tribes?

Friendship


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 10:13am
Jesus may very well have gotten His ideas from the Torah.  Was he not always studying in the temples?

The thing that makes Jesus different is that He brought a dimension of wisdom not seen before... a wisdom above and beyond that of man... and He gave His life... and sent His Holy Spirit to His Apostles.

Yes, I can only see where Muhammad got his ideas from earlier religion.  I see no evidence that Muhammad was Divinely inspired, only that he implemented wisdom that had gone before him.

Do I think God works in all these things?  Yes.
God has a plan that He is working.
The question you need to explore more deeply is, what is Muhammad's part in this plan?


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 3:12pm
Caringheart,
so much we learn and so much we come around where we started!
Prophet Mohammed did not get his ideas from Prophet Jesus' words (pbut).
What makes more sense is that they both got the words they preached from one source, one God, their and our God.
It does not matter (other than for yourself, thank God for that)that you do not see the Prophet divinely inspired.
On the other hand what came through him, the Quran is a shinning light of truth. For me it is amazing to see that how an illiterate man, alone, could do better than what thousands of men could not achieve for the Bible. What it was that came through him so perfect that it does not have a match to this day despite efforts of thousands of men over hundreds of years or even more. If it was not divine help, we must invent another word for what it was!

33:40 (Y. Ali) Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 12 September 2012 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by Caringheart




I am deferring to experiential where he says;
"Read -
Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8. 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32, Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52."
Have you read any of what Jesus had to say of which he referred you to?
You would also have to read the acts of the apostles to understand how the message of Jesus was taken to include the gentiles.
[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />



Jesus said he came for israelites and told his disciples to teach only in israelite towns. Anything that says otherwise is a contradiction


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 September 2012 at 5:51pm
"20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word
21 That they all may be one"

The words of Jesus.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 14 September 2012 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



"20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word21 That they all may be one"The words of Jesus.


Verses 20-21 from which book?


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 15 September 2012 at 2:56am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart




I am deferring to experiential where he says;
"Read -
Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8. 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32, Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52."
Have you read any of what Jesus had to say of which he referred you to?
You would also have to read the acts of the apostles to understand how the message of Jesus was taken to include the gentiles.
[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />



Jesus said he came for israelites and told his disciples to teach only in israelite towns. Anything that says otherwise is a contradiction

Only a contradiction because it dosn't suit you Mahdi. I bet you havn't even read the above verses. If you had you would see - Jesus came first for the Jew then later for the new Jew! there is no contradiction there. Have a good read.

And here is your Quaran -
1.Jesus is a sign to all peoples - 19:21 (al-nas, cf 7:158); 21:91 (al-Aalameen, cf 21:107). Cf 2:124; 43:46-47.
2.Jesus is held up as an example for the Arabs - 43:57.
3.The Bible is for all mankind - 3:3-4, 187; 6:89-91.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 15 September 2012 at 3:18am
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Caringheart


Your latest conspiracy theory.  [IMG]smileys/smiley6.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Unhappy" />

Abu Loren said -
It is not a conspiracy theory but FACT. Jesus did not come to start a new religion, "he came for the lost sheep of Israel". The 'gentiles' were not invited to a new covenent until Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) started his mission. The Holy Qur'an was revealed as a guide and Mercy to humanity.
 
1+1+1 = 1
 
Paul 'saw' Jesus (pbuh) after about twenty years after his 'crucifixion'. The funny part is that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified but was taken up to heaven bodily. Furthermore, Paul started to argue with the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh) namely his beloved disciple Peter. So this tells me that 1+1+1 =3.


Abu Loren
Go back and read the earlier post, dated 31 August and you will see Jesus first came for the Jew and then the non Jew. Do you read the posts? Do you read the verses provided? All the ancient Jewish prophesies point to Jesus not Mohammad. There is no mercy to humanity from the Quaran – only heavy rules. Jesus came to bring rest.

Paul 'saw' Jesus (pbuh) after about twenty years after his 'crucifixion'. How do you know that? What do you base this on ? And even if you are right, so what?

Your version of events based on the Quaran is not credible. Why should I believe a book written more than 600 years after the Injil written by eye witnesses. Even the non Christian historian Josephus wrote about the crucifixion in the first century.

Paul never agued with Peter. Again you don’t have your facts right. Go back and read the Acts of the Apostles. You even thought it was paul that wrote it when it was Luke !

What does this mean ? 1+1+1 =3 ?????????


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 16 September 2012 at 2:55am
Originally posted by Experiential



Abu Loren
Go back and read the earlier post, dated 31 August and you will see Jesus first came for the Jew and then the non Jew. Do you read the posts? Do you read the verses provided? All the ancient Jewish prophesies point to Jesus not Mohammad. There is no mercy to humanity from the Quaran – only heavy rules. Jesus came to bring rest.

Paul 'saw' Jesus (pbuh) after about twenty years after his 'crucifixion'. How do you know that? What do you base this on ? And even if you are right, so what?

Your version of events based on the Quaran is not credible. Why should I believe a book written more than 600 years after the Injil written by eye witnesses. Even the non Christian historian Josephus wrote about the crucifixion in the first century.

Paul never agued with Peter. Again you don’t have your facts right. Go back and read the Acts of the Apostles. You even thought it was paul that wrote it when it was Luke !

What does this mean ? 1+1+1 =3 ?????????


Jesus first came for the Jew and then the non Jew.

A Christian would die to make this point. The answer is simple and straightforward. Jesus (pbuh) came for the Jews,and Paul make it into an international religion inviting the gentiles when the pagan Romans took over the new invented religion of Christianity.

All the ancient Jewish prophesies point to Jesus not Mohammad.

Indeed Jesus (pbuh) has been prophesied in the Old Testament and nobody here is denying that as we all believe that he is the blessed Messiah. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) has also been prophecied in the Old Testament but the texts have been suppressed by the Jews and Christians.

There is no mercy to humanity from the Quaran – only heavy rules. Jesus came to bring rest.

The final revelation from God given to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is a guidance and mercy for all humanity. Previously, only the Children of Israel were invited to the covenant of God.

Matthew 20

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar bin Al-Khattab:
Allah's Apostle said, "Your example and the example of Jews and Christians is like the example of a man who employed some laborers to whom he said, 'Who will work for me up to midday for one Qirat each?' The Jews carried out the work for one Qirat each; and then the Christians carried out the work up to the `Asr prayer for one Qirat each; and now you Muslims are working from the `Asr prayer up to sunset for two Qirats each. The Jews and Christians got angry and said, 'We work more and are paid less.' The employer (Allah) asked them, 'Have I usurped some of your right?' They replied in the negative. He said, 'That is My Blessing, I bestow upon whomever I wish.' "

As you can see from Matthew 20 that God chooses a people to Himself and clearly the Muslims will be the final people to enter his covenant, this is an invitation for all mankind.

Paul never agued with Peter. Again you don’t have your facts right. Go back and read the Acts of the Apostles. You even thought it was paul that wrote it when it was Luke !

I think it's you who needs to re-read the Bible. In the New Testament it's very clear the adversary of Peter was the new usurper Paul. Jesus' (pbuh) beloved disciples were sidelined and overtaken by the false gospel of Paul, only because the Romans preferred Paul and accepted his writings.

Christianity is an invented religion and it's a judo-pagan religion that has no resemblence to the Old Testament nor the teachings of Jesus (pbuh).


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 16 September 2012 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart




I am deferring to experiential where he says;
"Read -
Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8. 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32, Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52."
Have you read any of what Jesus had to say of which he referred you to?
You would also have to read the acts of the apostles to understand how the message of Jesus was taken to include the gentiles.
[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />



Jesus said he came for israelites and told his disciples to teach only in israelite towns. Anything that says otherwise is a contradiction

Only a contradiction because it dosn't suit you Mahdi. I bet you havn't even read the above verses. If you had you would see - Jesus came first for the Jew then later for the new Jew! there is no contradiction there. Have a good read.

And here is your Quaran -
1.Jesus is a sign to all peoples - 19:21 (al-nas, cf 7:158); 21:91 (al-Aalameen, cf 21:107). Cf 2:124; 43:46-47.
2.Jesus is held up as an example for the Arabs - 43:57.
3.The Bible is for all mankind - 3:3-4, 187; 6:89-91.

So now you believe in Qur'an.


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 16 September 2012 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Caringheart


Your latest conspiracy theory. [IMG]smileys/smiley6.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Unhappy" />

Abu Loren said -
It is not a conspiracy theory but FACT. Jesus did not come to start a new religion, "he came for the lost sheep of Israel". The 'gentiles' were not invited to a new covenent until Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) started his mission. The Holy Qur'an was revealed as a guide and Mercy to humanity.
1+1+1 = 1
Paul 'saw' Jesus (pbuh) after about twenty years after his 'crucifixion'. The funny part is that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified but was taken up to heaven bodily. Furthermore, Paul started to argue with the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh) namely his beloved disciple Peter. So this tells me that 1+1+1 =3.


Abu Loren
Go back and read the earlier post, dated 31 August and you will see Jesus first came for the Jew and then the non Jew. Do you read the posts? Do you read the verses provided? All the ancient Jewish prophesies point to Jesus not Mohammad. There is no mercy to humanity from the Quaran – only heavy rules. Jesus came to bring rest.

Paul 'saw' Jesus (pbuh) after about twenty years after his 'crucifixion'. How do you know that? What do you base this on ? And even if you are right, so what?

Your version of events based on the Quaran is not credible. Why should I believe a book written more than 600 years after the Injil written by eye witnesses. Even the non Christian historian Josephus wrote about the crucifixion in the first century.

Paul never agued with Peter. Again you don’t have your facts right. Go back and read the Acts of the Apostles. You even thought it was paul that wrote it when it was Luke !

What does this mean ? 1+1+1 =3 ?????????

1+1+1=3. Elementary mathematics.
Quran has no mercy? If it is all about convinience and not truth, i would be a christian.
Christianity=Blame it on the scapegoat Jesus.


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart




I am deferring to experiential where he says;
"Read -
Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8. 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32, Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52."
Have you read any of what Jesus had to say of which he referred you to?
You would also have to read the acts of the apostles to understand how the message of Jesus was taken to include the gentiles.
[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />



Jesus said he came for israelites and told his disciples to teach only in israelite towns. Anything that says otherwise is a contradiction

Only a contradiction because it dosn't suit you Mahdi. I bet you havn't even read the above verses. If you had you would see - Jesus came first for the Jew then later for the new Jew! there is no contradiction there. Have a good read.

And here is your Quaran -
1.Jesus is a sign to all peoples - 19:21 (al-nas, cf 7:158); 21:91 (al-Aalameen, cf 21:107). Cf 2:124; 43:46-47.
2.Jesus is held up as an example for the Arabs - 43:57.
3.The Bible is for all mankind - 3:3-4, 187; 6:89-91.


Jesus came 'first for jews then gentiles'?
Figment of your imagination.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart




I am deferring to experiential where he says;
"Read -
Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8. 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32, Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52."
Have you read any of what Jesus had to say of which he referred you to?
You would also have to read the acts of the apostles to understand how the message of Jesus was taken to include the gentiles.
[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" height="17" width="17" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />



Jesus said he came for israelites and told his disciples to teach only in israelite towns. Anything that says otherwise is a contradiction

Only a contradiction because it dosn't suit you Mahdi. I bet you havn't even read the above verses. If you had you would see - Jesus came first for the Jew then later for the new Jew! there is no contradiction there. Have a good read.

And here is your Quaran -
1.Jesus is a sign to all peoples - 19:21 (al-nas, cf 7:158); 21:91 (al-Aalameen, cf 21:107). Cf 2:124; 43:46-47.
2.Jesus is held up as an example for the Arabs - 43:57.
3.The Bible is for all mankind - 3:3-4, 187; 6:89-91.

So now you believe in Qur'an.

No. What Im saying is you dont know your own Quaran.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 September 2012 at 8:43pm
Actually watch the show Finding Your Roots, sometime.  With all the new DNA evidence we can now see from whom we descend and many are finding that their roots trace back to having Hebrew blood.  It is quite possible that I, or you, may have.  I honestly think that I must.  I want to have the DNA testing done.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 September 2012 at 11:00am
"12  But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become children of God, even to those them that believe on His name:  13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 18 September 2012 at 11:25am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Actually watch the show Finding Your Roots, sometime.  With all the new DNA evidence we can now see from whom we descend and many are finding that their roots trace back to having Hebrew blood.  It is quite possible that I, or you, may have.  I honestly think that I must.  I want to have the DNA testing done.



As'alaamu Alaikkum

Why 'Hebrew blood'? When Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala destroyed humanity except a handful of believers that were in the ark with Noah the resulting generations would carry the DNA of these people who survived. They were not Jews, they didn't acquire this name until much later. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us in the Holy Qur'an that all believers are Mulsims which means that they have submitted to His Will. Then from the ark these handful of people grew to a community, then a town, then a nation and then they spread out and eventually populated the whole earth.

Another way of looking at this is that humanity can trace back it's DNA to the first man father Adam (pbuh) and his mate made from his rib mother Eve.

Thank god we don't have to search for the 'missing link'.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 18 September 2012 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Thank god we don't have to search for the 'missing link'.


Smile made me smile.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 20 September 2012 at 3:56am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Caringheart


Your latest conspiracy theory. [IMG]smileys/smiley6.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Unhappy" />

Abu Loren said -
It is not a conspiracy theory but FACT. Jesus did not come to start a new religion, "he came for the lost sheep of Israel". The 'gentiles' were not invited to a new covenent until Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) started his mission. The Holy Qur'an was revealed as a guide and Mercy to humanity.
1+1+1 = 1
Paul 'saw' Jesus (pbuh) after about twenty years after his 'crucifixion'. The funny part is that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified but was taken up to heaven bodily. Furthermore, Paul started to argue with the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh) namely his beloved disciple Peter. So this tells me that 1+1+1 =3.


Abu Loren
Go back and read the earlier post, dated 31 August and you will see Jesus first came for the Jew and then the non Jew. Do you read the posts? Do you read the verses provided? All the ancient Jewish prophesies point to Jesus not Mohammad. There is no mercy to humanity from the Quaran – only heavy rules. Jesus came to bring rest.

Paul 'saw' Jesus (pbuh) after about twenty years after his 'crucifixion'. How do you know that? What do you base this on ? And even if you are right, so what?

Your version of events based on the Quaran is not credible. Why should I believe a book written more than 600 years after the Injil written by eye witnesses. Even the non Christian historian Josephus wrote about the crucifixion in the first century.

Paul never agued with Peter. Again you don’t have your facts right. Go back and read the Acts of the Apostles. You even thought it was paul that wrote it when it was Luke !

What does this mean ? 1+1+1 =3 ?????????

1+1+1=3. Elementary mathematics.
Quran has no mercy? If it is all about convinience and not truth, i would be a christian.
Christianity=Blame it on the scapegoat Jesus.

Yes Jesus was a scape goat. A willing one, prophesied to be The Sacrificial Lamb in the Old testament. Jesus willingly sacrificed his own life to release Gods mercy to you. Do you honestly think your good religious behavior can ever be enough to satisfy Gods Holyness. No of course not. Only God can do it. No matter how hard you try you cannot. Jesus paid the price for you.



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 20 September 2012 at 4:06am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential



Abu Loren
Go back and read the earlier post, dated 31 August and you will see Jesus first came for the Jew and then the non Jew. Do you read the posts? Do you read the verses provided? All the ancient Jewish prophesies point to Jesus not Mohammad. There is no mercy to humanity from the Quaran – only heavy rules. Jesus came to bring rest.

Paul 'saw' Jesus (pbuh) after about twenty years after his 'crucifixion'. How do you know that? What do you base this on ? And even if you are right, so what?

Your version of events based on the Quaran is not credible. Why should I believe a book written more than 600 years after the Injil written by eye witnesses. Even the non Christian historian Josephus wrote about the crucifixion in the first century.

Paul never agued with Peter. Again you don’t have your facts right. Go back and read the Acts of the Apostles. You even thought it was paul that wrote it when it was Luke !

What does this mean ? 1+1+1 =3 ?????????


Jesus first came for the Jew and then the non Jew.

A Christian would die to make this point. The answer is simple and straightforward. Jesus (pbuh) came for the Jews,and Paul make it into an international religion inviting the gentiles when the pagan Romans took over the new invented religion of Christianity.

All the ancient Jewish prophesies point to Jesus not Mohammad.

Indeed Jesus (pbuh) has been prophesied in the Old Testament and nobody here is denying that as we all believe that he is the blessed Messiah. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) has also been prophecied in the Old Testament but the texts have been suppressed by the Jews and Christians.

There is no mercy to humanity from the Quaran – only heavy rules. Jesus came to bring rest.

The final revelation from God given to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is a guidance and mercy for all humanity. Previously, only the Children of Israel were invited to the covenant of God.

Matthew 20

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar bin Al-Khattab:
Allah's Apostle said, "Your example and the example of Jews and Christians is like the example of a man who employed some laborers to whom he said, 'Who will work for me up to midday for one Qirat each?' The Jews carried out the work for one Qirat each; and then the Christians carried out the work up to the `Asr prayer for one Qirat each; and now you Muslims are working from the `Asr prayer up to sunset for two Qirats each. The Jews and Christians got angry and said, 'We work more and are paid less.' The employer (Allah) asked them, 'Have I usurped some of your right?' They replied in the negative. He said, 'That is My Blessing, I bestow upon whomever I wish.' "

As you can see from Matthew 20 that God chooses a people to Himself and clearly the Muslims will be the final people to enter his covenant, this is an invitation for all mankind.

Paul never agued with Peter. Again you don’t have your facts right. Go back and read the Acts of the Apostles. You even thought it was paul that wrote it when it was Luke !

I think it's you who needs to re-read the Bible. In the New Testament it's very clear the adversary of Peter was the new usurper Paul. Jesus' (pbuh) beloved disciples were sidelined and overtaken by the false gospel of Paul, only because the Romans preferred Paul and accepted his writings.

Christianity is an invented religion and it's a judo-pagan religion that has no resemblence to the Old Testament nor the teachings of Jesus (pbuh).
 
Abu Loren said

A Christian would die to make this point. The answer is simple and straightforward. Jesus (pbuh) came for the Jews …

My Reply

Jesus said -

Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,and then the end will come."

Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit.."

Mark 11:17 - "And as He taught them, He said, 'Is it not written: "My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations"? ...'" (Isaiah 56:7)

Mark 13:10 - "And the gospel must first be preached to all nations."

Mark 13:27 - "And He will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."

Mark 16:15 - "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.'"

Luke 2:31, 32 - "'which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for gloryto your people Israel.'"

Luke 3:6 - "And all mankind will see God's salvation."

Luke 24:47 - "..and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at

Jerusalem." and on earth and under the earth.

And your own Quaran –

Sura19:21 He said, "Thus said your Lord, 'It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.'"

Sura 21.91and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

Sura 3:3  He has revealed upon you this Scripture with the Truth, confirming that which was before it; and He revealed the Tawrât and the Injîl,

 

 

 Abu Loren said

Christianity is an invented religion (by Paul) and it's a judo-pagan religion that has no resemblance to the Old Testament nor the teachings of Jesus (pbuh). Paul make it into an international religion inviting the gentiles when the pagan Romans took over the new invented religion of Christianity.

My Reply

Jesus was a Jew. Mohammad was not.

Paul was a Jew. Mohamed was not.

Jesus and Paul lived 2000 years ago. Mohammad did not.

Paul knew the Old Testament incredibly well and quoted from it often.

Jesus friends were Jews. Paul knew all of Jesus friends (Peter, James, Judas)  and they all supported Paul. Mohammad did not know them.

The Injil was written by many authors, Paul was only one and his writings do not differ from the others.

Paul was executed by the Roman Empire, so obviously he did not support the Roman Empire.

 

 

Abu Loren said

Indeed Jesus (pbuh) has been prophesied in the Old Testament and nobody here is denying that as we all believe that he is the blessed Messiah.

My Reply

Then if you follow the prophesies then you will see he died and rose again.

Read these prophesies -

Isiah 53 -He would be killed.

Psalm 16:10 He Would rise from the dead.

Psalm 68:18 He would rise into heaven.

 

 

Abu Loren said

Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) has also been prophesied in the Old Testament but the texts have been suppressed by the Jews and Christians.

My Reply

Another conspiracy theory! Prove these prophesies. Where are they in the Bible? And don’t try Deuteronomy 18:15-22 or try to link Sura 61:6 with John 14:16 because it doesn’t fit.

The texts were suppressed ? Prove it ! When was this done? By who? Where? And why?

 

 

Abu Loren said

The final revelation from God given to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is a guidance and mercy for all humanity. Previously, only the Children of Israel were invited to the covenant of God.

Matthew 20 …

My Reply

Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,and then the end will come."

Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit.."

Mark 11:17 - "And as He taught them, He said, 'Is it not written: "My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations"? ...'" (Isaiah 56:7)

Mark 13:10 - "And the gospel must first be preached to all nations."

Mark 13:27 - "And He will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."

Mark 16:15 - "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.'"

Luke 2:31, 32 - "'which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for gloryto your people Israel.'"

Luke 3:6 - "And all mankind will see God's salvation."

Luke 24:47 - "..and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at

Jerusalem." and on earth and under the earth.

And your own Quaran –

Sura19:21 He said, "Thus said your Lord, 'It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.'"

 

 

 Abu Loren said

Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar bin Al-Khattab:

Allah's Apostle said, "Your example and the example of Jews and Christians is like the example of a man who employed some laborers to whom he said, 'Who will work for me up to midday for one Qirat each?' The Jews carried out the work for one Qirat each; and then the Christians carried out the work up to the `Asr prayer for one Qirat each; and now you Muslims are working from the `Asr prayer up to sunset for two Qirats each. The Jews and Christians got angry and said, 'We work more and are paid less.' The employer (Allah) asked them, 'Have I usurped some of your right?' They replied in the negative. He said, 'That is My Blessing, I bestow upon whomever I wish.' "

As you can see from Matthew 20 that God chooses a people to Himself and clearly the Muslims will be the final people to enter his covenant, this is an invitation for all mankind.

My Reply

Who cares what Abdullah bin `Umar bin Al-Khattab had to say ! Not me ! All he has done is corrupt Mathew 20 to his own purposes.

 

 Abu Loren said

I think it's you who needs to re-read the Bible. In the New Testament it's very clear the adversary of Peter was the new usurper Paul. Jesus' (pbuh) beloved disciples were sidelined and overtaken by the false gospel of Paul, only because the Romans preferred Paul and accepted his writings.

My Reply

As a Christian of course I know the Bible better than you. You didn’t even know who wrote the Acts of the Apostles. You thought it was Paul when it was actually Luke !!!

Read Acts of the Apostles Chapter 15 and you will see Peter, James and Paul agreed.

Paul was executed by the Roman Empire, so obviously he did not support the Roman Empire!

 

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 September 2012 at 1:00pm
This is why I hate debating with Christians, the discussion just goes round in circles.


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 24 September 2012 at 11:28am
My Reply Jesus said -
Matthew 24:14 - "And this
gospel of the kingdom will be
preached in the whole world
as a testimony to all nations,and then the end will come."
Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go
and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of
theSon and of the Holy Spirit.."
Mark 11:17 - "And as He taught
them, He said, 'Is it not
written: "My house will be
called a house of prayer for all nations"? ...'" (Isaiah 56:7) Mark 13:10 - "And the gospel
must first be preached to all nations." Mark 13:27 - "And He will send
His angels and gather His elect
from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."
Mark 16:15 - "He said to them,
'Go into all the world and
preach the good news to all creation.'" Luke 2:31, 32 - "'which you
have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for gloryto your people Israel.'"
Luke 3:6 - "And all mankind will see God's salvation."
Luke 24:47 - "..and repentance
and forgiveness of sins will be
preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." and on earth and
under the earth.

Experiential, this is what youshould have replied with in the first place


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 24 September 2012 at 11:56am
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
instructions: “Do not go
among the Gentiles or enter
any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

VS

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said,
“All authority in heaven and on
earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey
everything I have commanded
you.


Sorry Experiential. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 24 September 2012 at 10:29pm
Assalamu alaika Abu Loren.
 
But I think it is the same with the followers of Muhammad. I like discussion with the Rabbis for they are straightforward and always say I do not know. They do not feel shy according to the Sunna of Muhammad Rasulullah.
 
Friendship


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 6:19am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
instructions: “Do not go
among the Gentiles or enter
any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

VS

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said,
“All authority in heaven and on
earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey
everything I have commanded
you.


Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.


CLEARLY one is added much later, therefore the contradiction.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 9:58am
Assalamu alaikum.
 
I am yet to get a clear satisfactory explanation from the Christians on the difference bewteen SELF-PRONOUNCING RED LETTER EDITION AND OTHERS. In the self pronouncing red letter edition. Math 10:5, "Those twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them saying." is self pronouncing black letter edition.  Therefore it is not the statement of Jesus son of Maryam. The rest are self pronouncing red letter. Therefore that was the statement of Jesus son of Maryam.
Matthew 28:18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying: Is self pronouncing black letter edition. That was not the statement of Jesus son of Maryam. Thwe res tare sel pronouncing red letter.
The important question is: If Moses was given the Torah under one sitting or one meeting, the followers of Jesus son of Maryam are depicting that Jesus son of Maryam was visited by angel Gabriel in the manner he visited Muhammad Rasulullah. But this is denied by Allah in the Qur'an  25:32, "Why is the Qur'an not sent in one go?"
I believe the Christians are creating stumbling block in refusing to understand that Muhammad did not come to deny the messengers before him. I will advise the folowers of Muhammad to take note of that and that whaever one reads from the Bible should make effort to know its arms from the Qur'an or hadith of the holy Apostle.
Let us give them the burden of proof that they do not like peace to reign.
 
Friendship.
 
 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
instructions: “Do not go
among the Gentiles or enter
any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

VS

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said,
“All authority in heaven and on
earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey
everything I have commanded
you.


Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.


Time and place...
Different times, different places... different point in the ministry of Jesus.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 12:49pm
Greetings Friendship,

While I still am not understanding the point you want to make regarding red letter writing, I was led by God to share this today...
this is red letter writing... words of Jesus

31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.  (Mark)

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  (John)

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 25 September 2012 at 11:05pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.
 
Please give the chapters and the Book's name.
 
Friendship.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 26 September 2012 at 6:36am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Friendship,While I still am not understanding the point you want to make regarding red letter writing, I was led by God to share this today...this is red letter writing... words of Jesus31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.  (Mark)11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  (John)Salaam,Caringheart


Caringheart, the trouble is one does not what is original verse and which are added later on, I'm sorry but we cannot rely on any of what you have posted. THE BIBLE IS CORRUPTED!


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 26 September 2012 at 9:54am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
instructions: “Do not go
among the Gentiles or enter
any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

VS

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said,
“All authority in heaven and on
earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey
everything I have commanded
you.


Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.
Time and place...Different times, different places... different point in the ministry of Jesus.

That's no excuse.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 September 2012 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Friendship,While I still am not understanding the point you want to make regarding red letter writing, I was led by God to share this today...this is red letter writing... words of Jesus31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.  (Mark)11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  (John)Salaam,Caringheart


Caringheart, the trouble is one does not what is original verse and which are added later on, I'm sorry but we cannot rely on any of what you have posted. THE BIBLE IS CORRUPTED!


So Muhammad says to rely on the words of those who have gone before him and on the earlier scriptures, which are your scriptures too, yet tells you you have nowhere to go to find them?
Would God leave his people in the dark this way?


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 6:27am
Originally posted by Caringheart


So Muhammad says to rely on the words of those who have gone before him and on the earlier scriptures, which are your scriptures too, yet tells you you have nowhere to go to find them?Would God leave his people in the dark this way?[/QUOTE]

CORRECTION! Muhammed (pbuh) does not say any such thing nor does the Holy Qur'an it only confirms that the Torah was revealed to Prophet Musa (pbuh) and the Injeel was revealed to Prophet Isa (pbuh).

God indeed does not leave humanity in the dark hence the need for the Holy Qur'an the Last and Final Testament from God Almighty to mankind.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 6:54am
Assalamu alaiku.
 
While it is indisputable that the Qur'an revealed to Muhammad lasted for about 23 years, there is proof of what that Tablet revealed to Moses contained. What was it exactly? My The Promise Study Edition is 1458 pages. Certainly pages 220-1458 were not a revelation to Moses the receiver of the Tablet. Pages 1-220 could not be also part of the Tablet.
I am again calling on members of this forum to be wiser and straightforward to achieve the objective of the forum. Muhammad was not sent to discuss what we are discussing. HE CAME TO UNITE THE WORLD UNDER A LOVING AND PEACEFUL ENVIRONMENT. HE INVITED ALL TO WORSHIP ONE G-D BY EACH NATION STICKING TO HIS LAWS SENT THROUGH RESPECTIVE MESSENGERS. WE MUST CORRECT EACH OTHER FOR THE LAWS OF THE G-D OF ABRAHAM ON PEACEFUL CO-EXISTENCE IS ONE.
If Muhammad's front is to confront the desires of people, how could he have obeyed the request of those who expelled him forcefully in sending forth their equals during the battle of Badr? If his way of life was confrontational he would never have done that. But he listened and obeyed the request of his enemies.
It is not possible for the Christians to understand the Qur'an for understanding it is governed by rules and regulations that are known only to those studying it. Secondly it is not possible to see its fruits practically for such fruits are only seen when the Law is applied to the latter. We have heard an Egyptian Muslim scholar taken to court for burning the Bible. Where in the history of Muhammad and his caliphs was the Torah burnt?
The Christians must change their strategy.
 
Friendship.
 
 


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.
 
I am yet to get a clear satisfactory explanation from the Christians on the difference bewteen SELF-PRONOUNCING RED LETTER EDITION AND OTHERS. In the self pronouncing red letter edition. Math 10:5, "Those twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them saying." is self pronouncing black letter edition.  Therefore it is not the statement of Jesus son of Maryam. The rest are self pronouncing red letter. Therefore that was the statement of Jesus son of Maryam.
Matthew 28:18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying: Is self pronouncing black letter edition. That was not the statement of Jesus son of Maryam. Thwe res tare sel pronouncing red letter.
The important question is: If Moses was given the Torah under one sitting or one meeting, the followers of Jesus son of Maryam are depicting that Jesus son of Maryam was visited by angel Gabriel in the manner he visited Muhammad Rasulullah. But this is denied by Allah in the Qur'an  25:32, "Why is the Qur'an not sent in one go?"
I believe the Christians are creating stumbling block in refusing to understand that Muhammad did not come to deny the messengers before him. I will advise the folowers of Muhammad to take note of that and that whaever one reads from the Bible should make effort to know its arms from the Qur'an or hadith of the holy Apostle.
Let us give them the burden of proof that they do not like peace to reign.
 Friendship.
 
 

Assalamu alaikum Friendship.

Do you remember me, I am David who was here quite a while ago. It is nice to be back discussing with you and I still remember your kind wishes when my country suffered the earthquake. Any way I hope I can help make things clear. Maybe we will never agree but I am sure there will always be respect.

Friendship, the red letter writing is nothing but a publishers gimmick. Just the same as some bibles have maps and pictures and some do not.

 
Friendship Said

The important question is: If Moses was given the Torah under one sitting or one meeting,

My Reply

Why is it so important to you whether Moses received the Torah in one meeting or not? Im not sure why that’s so important to you? Anyway if you read the life of Moses you will see he was in constant communication with God and received the Torah over a period of time.

 
Friendship Said

The followers of Jesus are depicting that Jesus was visited by the angel Gabriel in the manner he visited Muhammad. But this is denied by Allah in the Qur'an  25:32, "Why is the Qur'an not sent in one go?"

I believe the Christians are creating a stumbling block in refusing to understand that Muhammad did not come to deny the messengers before him.

I will advise the followers of Muhammad to take note of that and that whatever one reads from the Bible should make effort to know its arms from the Qur'an or hadith of the holy Apostle.

Let us give them the burden of proof that they do not like peace to reign.

My Reply

Jesus was not visited by Gabriele. Only Maryam was.

The contradictions between the Bible and Quaran  speak for themselves. The contradictions between the two are the stumbling block.

Mohamads version of events in the Quaran contradicts the Injil so Christians do not accept it.



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Friendship,While I still am not understanding the point you want to make regarding red letter writing, I was led by God to share this today...this is red letter writing... words of Jesus31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.  (Mark)11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  (John)Salaam,Caringheart


Caringheart, the trouble is one does not what is original verse and which are added later on, I'm sorry but we cannot rely on any of what you have posted. THE BIBLE IS CORRUPTED!

Abu Loren this is all conspiracy theory. Muslims don’t know what is original or added later because your Quaran is confused about the Injil. Muslims are never able to prove the conspiracy theory. I challenge you to tell me who changed the Injil ? Where ? When ? and why ?       

 

You and your Quaran appear confused because even your Quaran confirms the New Testament is from God, so why would God allow a corrupted truth ??

 

Sura 19.30. He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet."

Sura 3:3. It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

Sura 5:46 states that the Injil was given to Jesus by Allah.

Sura 19:30 and 3:3 then clarify that the Injil is a book just as the Qur'an and the Torah are books that were sent down by Allah.

Why would God allow a corrupted truth ??


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
instructions: “Do not go
among the Gentiles or enter
any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

VS

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said,
“All authority in heaven and on
earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey
everything I have commanded
you.


Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.


CLEARLY one is added much later, therefore the contradiction.

CLEARLY you just pick and choose verses that suit you. Have any of you ever read the Gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John from beginning to the end. If you had, you would get the context and see the verses do not contradict but actually complement each other. If you are worried about contradictions your Quaran is full of them.

Jesus came first for the Jew and then the non Jew.



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaiku.
 
While it is indisputable that the Qur'an revealed to Muhammad lasted for about 23 years, there is proof of what that Tablet revealed to Moses contained. What was it exactly? My The Promise Study Edition is 1458 pages. Certainly pages 220-1458 were not a revelation to Moses the receiver of the Tablet. Pages 1-220 could not be also part of the Tablet.
I am again calling on members of this forum to be wiser and straightforward to achieve the objective of the forum. Muhammad was not sent to discuss what we are discussing. HE CAME TO UNITE THE WORLD UNDER A LOVING AND PEACEFUL ENVIRONMENT. HE INVITED ALL TO WORSHIP ONE G-D BY EACH NATION STICKING TO HIS LAWS SENT THROUGH RESPECTIVE MESSENGERS. WE MUST CORRECT EACH OTHER FOR THE LAWS OF THE G-D OF ABRAHAM ON PEACEFUL CO-EXISTENCE IS ONE.
If Muhammad's front is to confront the desires of people, how could he have obeyed the request of those who expelled him forcefully in sending forth their equals during the battle of Badr? If his way of life was confrontational he would never have done that. But he listened and obeyed the request of his enemies.
It is not possible for the Christians to understand the Qur'an for understanding it is governed by rules and regulations that are known only to those studying it. Secondly it is not possible to see its fruits practically for such fruits are only seen when the Law is applied to the latter. We have heard an Egyptian Muslim scholar taken to court for burning the Bible. Where in the history of Muhammad and his caliphs was the Torah burnt?
The Christians must change their strategy.
 
Friendship.
 
 

 

Friendship Said

While it is indisputable that the Qur'an revealed to Muhammad lasted for about 23 years,

My Reply

Indisputable ? The Quaran found in Sunna in Yemen in 1972 indicates the “revelation” Mohamad received was tampered with. Read the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript

 

Friendship Said

I am again calling on members of this forum to be wiser and straightforward to achieve the objective of the forum. Muhammad was not sent to discuss what we are discussing. HE CAME TO UNITE THE WORLD UNDER A LOVING AND PEACEFUL ENVIRONMENT. HE INVITED ALL TO WORSHIP ONE G-D BY EACH NATION STICKING TO HIS LAWS SENT THROUGH RESPECTIVE MESSENGERS. WE MUST CORRECT EACH OTHER FOR THE LAWS OF THE G-D OF ABRAHAM ON PEACEFUL CO-EXISTENCE IS ONE.

My Reply

I agree with you Friendship. There is some truth to what you say. But I am not convinced the way of Mohamad is the correct way.

 

 



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 27 September 2012 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
instructions: “Do not go
among the Gentiles or enter
any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

VS

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said,
“All authority in heaven and on
earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of
the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey
everything I have commanded
you.


Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.
Time and place...Different times, different places... different point in the ministry of Jesus.

That's no excuse.
Mahdi. You only have a conspiracy theory with no proof.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 28 September 2012 at 4:13am
Originally posted by Experiential

[/QUOTE]

Abu Loren this is all conspiracy theory

Not conspiracy theory but fact. The Council Nicea which was convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine in c AD325 decided to add and subtract words which suited them that will incorporate their pagan belief system into the new religion of Christianity. At that time, Christianity was a threat to the Roman Empire as many of the lands that it ruled were turning to the new religion and people were converting in droves. Their favorite past time of feeding these Christians were not working because the Christians were willingly surrendering and the Romans realised that pretty soon they will no people to rule in their Empire. This is the time when they decided to follow the Pauline doctrine and the true disciples of Jesus pbuh) were sidelined and ignored.

Muslims don’t know what is original or added later because your Quaran is confused about the Injil.

The Holy Qur'an is not confused about the Injil. The Holy Qur'an confirm that indeed the Injil was given to the Messiah Jesus (pbuh). It does not go into any detail about what it contained. Human beings changed it to suit themselves.

You and your Quaran appear confused because even your Quaran confirms the New Testament is from God, so why would God allow a corrupted truth ??

I and my Qur'an are not confused because as I said the Holy Qur'an only confirms that the Injil was given to Prophet Jesus (pbuh), it doesn't say what it contains. God didn't allow a corrupted truth man did.
You seem to be very confused.



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 28 September 2012 at 5:00am
Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. VS Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.Time and place...Different times, different places... different point in the ministry of Jesus.
That's no excuse.

Mahdi. You only have a conspiracy theory with no proof.


MATTHEW 15
24 He answered, “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Not,'i will first preach to jews then gentiles' or 'i was sent to the whole world but first to jews'. Jesus excluded everybody else.

Read and think about it. Being a devout servant of your lord, you would sooner grab on to any 'explanation' which seems to solve your problem. Your whole life would come undone if any aspect of christianity is proved false. But i feel it is better to know the truth no matter the consequences.Try not to be emotional and use logic, not only in this discussion, but also in any other. Would Jesus have made such a statement if he had been sent to save the whole world?
And this is not an islam/Qur'an vs. Christianity/Bible discussion so please try to stay on topic.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 28 September 2012 at 5:46am
Assalamu alaika Experiential.
 
It is nice to hear from you. I saw the picture of the ruined church and that one architect is going to make it habitable.
You said: Why is it so important to you whether Moses received the Torah in one meeting or not? Im not sure why that’s so important to you? Anyway if you read the life of Moses you will see he was in constant communication with God and received the Torah over a period of time.
Answer: Exodus 20 mentioned the Ten Commandments. Exodus 30 mentions the Command from the Lord of Abraham to Moses to cut two flat stones like the first one the Lord made for the writing of same commandments. This is mentioned in Qur'an 7:145. This is the written LAW. Then the aactual application of the law began after the selection of 12 people to spy the land to the death of Moses. Moses was not given any law to his people in Egypt. This what the Qur'an tells us.There was no law during the period of wandering in the desert! The Quraysh aware of that questioned G-d why he did not send the Qur'an in the manner sent to Messengers before him. Indeed there is difference bewteen the written and oral law - the latter probably is referred to their experience in the desert. This resembles the difference the Qur'an and the sunna of Muhammad. The Quran like the written law is fixed. The oral law like the hadith are variables. So, does this similarity make us fight each other supporting and empoweing dictators to rule in the Muslim world then to turn back accusing Muhammad of causing disquiet? 
You said: The contradictions between the Bible and Quaran  speak for themselves. The contradictions between the two are the stumbling block.
My Response: After the G-d of Abraham finished narrating to Muhammad Rasulullah the true story of the family of Imran leading to the birth of Maryam, He adroitly taught Muhammad to argue: You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam (Mary); nor were you with them when they disputed. (Q:3:44). I do not know if this information is given in the Injeel by Jesus son of Maryam. If it is in the Torah then it must be during the time of one of the Messengers sent before Jesus son of Maryam.  Now, if this is what we in this forum understand by contradiction, then Muhammad Rasulullah is not a party to such contradictions. As explained earlier, Muhamamd has direct contact with those who called themselves 'Christians' for a period of about 4 weeks in his 23 years of Apostleship. They came to him from Najran the 9th to get more information about jesus son of Maryam. They went back accepting his explanation. Note earlier on in Abyssinia the then Christian king negus said: The difference between what Muhammad and jeus brought is no biiger than this thin line. Therefore the contradiction is not with Muhammad but with those 'gimmicks'.
 
Friendship.
 
 


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 28 September 2012 at 6:57am
Assalamu alaika Experiential.
You said: Indisputable ? The Quaran found in Sunna in Yemen in 1972 indicates the “revelation” Mohamad received was tampered with. Read the link.
 
My response: Thanks very much for the link. Tampering with the Qur'an involves Gabriel and all that is between him and the moment Muhammad received the message, but never with Muhammad. The link did not state that the Qur'nan was tampered with, but rather confirmed the true narration on how the Qur'an was collected. The Qur'an was composed into chapters during the time of Abubakar from the various materials on which it was written and from the memories of those who memorized it. These chapters were then composed intoone volume called the 'Mushaf' of Uthman. It was sent to various cities where the senior Sahabas (companions) lived for further scrutiny. All other volumes were burnt. The wisdom behind that cannot be disputed. The challenge of the authenticity of the contents of the Qur'an must be weighed and reflected in the challenge of Allah in Qur'an 4: Have they not considere the Qur'an? Had it been from other than allah, they would surely have found therein many contradictions. If you were to memorize the Qur'an and recite it with understanding, you will easily change, add and subtract, but still keeping its meaning. I have that experience from the example given in Wikipedia that made me never to recite the Qur'an during the Fajr prayer off head. There were few volumes of the Qur'an in circulation in the early period of Islam according to professor Azami. The wonders of the Qur'an is in its retention by children at the age of 5 years. The elderly always add and subrtract in reciting it according to meaning.
You said: I agree with you Friendship. There is some truth to what you say.
Response:; That truth is from Muhammad. I am only his messenger. It takes time to have a complete understanding of Muhammad.
You said: But I am not convinced the way of Mohamad is the correct way.
Response: I do not know the parameters you have considered. It is the physical world that directs one to reflect on Allah. Then one of its signs will certainly convince one of the Oneness of Allah. There are 84 such signs mentioned in the qur'an for mankind to choose analyse. Remember the song of the Children of Israel after the Exodus 15. Muhammad never stated that his way is the best. he challenged the then civilization in Qur'an 28:49, "The bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide than these two (the Book of Moses and Qur'an) that I may follow it, if you are truthful."
Well, experentially, you have to support the establishment of the Caliphate. That is where the way is.
 
Friendship.
 
 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 September 2012 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren





Greetings Abu Loren,

I was recently having a similar conversation on another forum regarding the creeds of the Catholic church.

The council of Nicea convened to discuss church doctrine and the creed which the church adhered to.  Prior to the meeting of the Nicene council, and the outcome of the Nicene creed, there was the Apostle's creed.  It is this creed that was changed and causes the split between the eastern and the western practices of faith in the church.  The Nicene creed is about the profession of faith in the Catholic church.  It had nothing to do with changing scripture.  Maybe this is where the confusion comes in for non-Christians.  This council would be more like meeting to discuss sunna or hadith... the interpretation of scripture.  300 bishops gathered at Nicea, there were 17 dissenters at first, and in the end only 3 dissenters to the interpretation of the scripture.  Seems pretty convincing to me.  So by a majority concensus the Nicene creed was adopted in place of the Apostle's creed.

The Nicene controversy was over Jesus being, "one in being with the Father".
The council convened due to a split occurring between east and west due to one Arius, who was considered a heretic and sought to teach a different thing from the church in Rome.
"Arius was an ascetic Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, of the church of Baucalis, and was of Libyan origins."
This difference in upbringing and distance of separation from the birthplace of the church, and the places where Jesus taught, makes a plausible explanation for his confusion and dissent... and also the later confusion of Muhammad.

Blessings to you,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 September 2012 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke



Read and think about it. Being a devout servant of your lord, you would sooner grab on to any 'explanation' which seems to solve your problem. Your whole life would come undone if any aspect of _______ is proved false. But i feel it is better to know the truth no matter the consequences.Try not to be emotional and use logic, not only in this discussion, but also in any other.


Greetings Mahdi,

I'm thinking I could give you the same advice.

and this;
"Would Jesus have made such a statement if he had been sent to save the whole world? "
So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?

Thanks,
Caringheart


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 12:02am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren


Greetings Abu Loren,I was recently having a similar conversation on another forum regarding the creeds of the Catholic church.The council of Nicea convened to discuss church doctrine and the creed which the church adhered to.  Prior to the meeting of the Nicene council, and the outcome of the Nicene creed, there was the Apostle's creed.  It is this creed that was changed and causes the split between the eastern and the western practices of faith in the church.  The Nicene creed is about the profession of faith in the Catholic church.  It had nothing to do with changing scripture.  Maybe this is where the confusion comes in for non-Christians.  This council would be more like meeting to discuss sunna or hadith... the interpretation of scripture.  300 bishops gathered at Nicea, there were 17 dissenters at first, and in the end only 3 dissenters to the interpretation of the scripture.  Seems pretty convincing to me.  So by a majority concensus the Nicene creed was adopted in place of the Apostle's creed.The Nicene controversy was over Jesus being, "one in being with the Father".The council convened due to a split occurring between east and west due to one Arius, who was considered a heretic and sought to teach a different thing from the church in Rome.
"Arius was an ascetic Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, of the church of Baucalis, and was of Libyan origins."
This difference in upbringing and distance of separation from the birthplace of the church, and the places where Jesus taught, makes a plausible explanation for his confusion and dissent... and also the later confusion of Muhammad.Blessings to you,Caringheart


So you cannot see the conspiracy within what you have just wrote?

The true disciples of Jesus (pbuh) was sidelined for the Pauline doctrine.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 12:12am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. VS Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.Time and place...Different times, different places... different point in the ministry of Jesus. That's no excuse.

Mahdi. You only have a conspiracy theory with no proof.


MATTHEW 15
24 He answered, “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Not,'i will first preach to jews then gentiles' or 'i was sent to the whole world but first to jews'. Jesus excluded everybody else.

Read and think about it. Being a devout servant of your lord, you would sooner grab on to any 'explanation' which seems to solve your problem. Your whole life would come undone if any aspect of christianity is proved false. But i feel it is better to know the truth no matter the consequences.Try not to be emotional and use logic, not only in this discussion, but also in any other. Would Jesus have made such a statement if he had been sent to save the whole world?
And this is not an islam/Qur'an vs. Christianity/Bible discussion so please try to stay on topic.
Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,and then the end will come."
Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit.."
Mark 11:17 - "And as He taught them, He said, 'Is it not written: "My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations"? ...'" (Isaiah 56:7)
Mark 13:10 - "And the gospel must first be preached to all nations."
Mark 13:27 - "And He will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."
Mark 16:15 - "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.'"
Luke 2:31, 32 - "'which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for gloryto your people Israel.'"
Luke 3:6 - "And all mankind will see God's salvation."
Luke 24:47 - "..and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at
Jerusalem." and on earth and under the earth.
And your own Quaran –
Sura19:21 He said, "Thus said your Lord, 'It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.'"
Sura 21.91and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.
Sura 3:3  He has revealed upon you this Scripture with the Truth, confirming that which was before it; and He revealed the Tawrât and the Injîl,


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 12:43am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential



Abu Loren this is all conspiracy theory

Not conspiracy theory but fact. The Council Nicea which was convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine in c AD325 decided to add and subtract words which suited them that will incorporate their pagan belief system into the new religion of Christianity. At that time, Christianity was a threat to the Roman Empire as many of the lands that it ruled were turning to the new religion and people were converting in droves. Their favorite past time of feeding these Christians were not working because the Christians were willingly surrendering and the Romans realised that pretty soon they will no people to rule in their Empire. This is the time when they decided to follow the Pauline doctrine and the true disciples of Jesus pbuh) were sidelined and ignored.

Muslims don’t know what is original or added later because your Quaran is confused about the Injil.

The Holy Qur'an is not confused about the Injil. The Holy Qur'an confirm that indeed the Injil was given to the Messiah Jesus (pbuh). It does not go into any detail about what it contained. Human beings changed it to suit themselves.

You and your Quaran appear confused because even your Quaran confirms the New Testament is from God, so why would God allow a corrupted truth ??

I and my Qur'an are not confused because as I said the Holy Qur'an only confirms that the Injil was given to Prophet Jesus (pbuh), it doesn't say what it contains. God didn't allow a corrupted truth man did.
You seem to be very confused.

Abu Loren Said

Not conspiracy theory but fact. The Council Nicea which was convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine in c AD325 decided to add and subtract words which suited them that will incorporate their pagan

My Reply

Yes ive heard the Council of Nicea argument before and it does not line up with historical fact. The New Testament was written approximately from 55AD to 100AD. The Council of Nicea was 325AD. More than 300 years later !

The New testament was firmly established before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicea as to what would be included in the bible. All they discussed was the meaning of “God the Son” and the date of Easter.

For the Emperor Constantine to add and subtract words is ridiculous. The Christian world extended from Britain in the west to  Armenia in the north  half way down the coast of East Africa in the south and all the way to China and India in the east.

There was no one powerful enough to seize every single copy of the New Testament in every church in the world to falsify the New Testament.

Also it would mean forcibly changing the practices and beliefs of Christians from around the world.

Also they would have to remove all traces of the original New Testament. Not only were there the copies of the New Testament, but many writers had already quoted extensively from it in the first, second and third centuries. We know of over 32,000 of these quotations.

To make the new New Testament accepted, the conspirators would have had to force believers to adopt new customs and ceremonies such as communion (symbolic of the crucifixion of Jesus), baptism (symbolic of the forgiveness of sins in Christ), and religious belief in the Cross. What were the older ceremonies? Why do we have no record of them?

 
Abu Loren Said

The Holy Qur'an is not confused about the Injil. The Holy Qur'an confirm that indeed the Injil was given to the Messiah Jesus (pbuh). It does not go into any detail about what it contained. Human beings changed it to suit themselves.

My Reply

If It does not go into any detail about what it contained. Then how do you know what is false about it ?

You have no criteria to decide what was corrupted or not.

Does your Quaran says Christians changed the Injil ?



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 12:51am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Experiential.
 
It is nice to hear from you. I saw the picture of the ruined church and that one architect is going to make it habitable.
You said: Why is it so important to you whether Moses received the Torah in one meeting or not? Im not sure why that’s so important to you? Anyway if you read the life of Moses you will see he was in constant communication with God and received the Torah over a period of time.
Answer: Exodus 20 mentioned the Ten Commandments. Exodus 30 mentions the Command from the Lord of Abraham to Moses to cut two flat stones like the first one the Lord made for the writing of same commandments. This is mentioned in Qur'an 7:145. This is the written LAW. Then the aactual application of the law began after the selection of 12 people to spy the land to the death of Moses. Moses was not given any law to his people in Egypt. This what the Qur'an tells us.There was no law during the period of wandering in the desert! The Quraysh aware of that questioned G-d why he did not send the Qur'an in the manner sent to Messengers before him. Indeed there is difference bewteen the written and oral law - the latter probably is referred to their experience in the desert. This resembles the difference the Qur'an and the sunna of Muhammad. The Quran like the written law is fixed. The oral law like the hadith are variables. So, does this similarity make us fight each other supporting and empoweing dictators to rule in the Muslim world then to turn back accusing Muhammad of causing disquiet? 
You said: The contradictions between the Bible and Quaran  speak for themselves. The contradictions between the two are the stumbling block.
My Response: After the G-d of Abraham finished narrating to Muhammad Rasulullah the true story of the family of Imran leading to the birth of Maryam, He adroitly taught Muhammad to argue: You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Maryam (Mary); nor were you with them when they disputed. (Q:3:44). I do not know if this information is given in the Injeel by Jesus son of Maryam. If it is in the Torah then it must be during the time of one of the Messengers sent before Jesus son of Maryam.  Now, if this is what we in this forum understand by contradiction, then Muhammad Rasulullah is not a party to such contradictions. As explained earlier, Muhamamd has direct contact with those who called themselves 'Christians' for a period of about 4 weeks in his 23 years of Apostleship. They came to him from Najran the 9th to get more information about jesus son of Maryam. They went back accepting his explanation. Note earlier on in Abyssinia the then Christian king negus said: The difference between what Muhammad and jeus brought is no biiger than this thin line. Therefore the contradiction is not with Muhammad but with those 'gimmicks'.
 Friendship.
 
 

Im sorry Friendship but most of this is very complicated. But I know this - any differences between Islam and Christianity out weigh any similarities. Also The Christians of Najran never accepted Islam and were forced out of their home land by the Muslims.



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 12:57am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Experiential.
You said: Indisputable ? The Quaran found in Sunna in Yemen in 1972 indicates the “revelation” Mohamad received was tampered with. Read the link.
 
My response: Thanks very much for the link. Tampering with the Qur'an involves Gabriel and all that is between him and the moment Muhammad received the message, but never with Muhammad. The link did not state that the Qur'nan was tampered with, but rather confirmed the true narration on how the Qur'an was collected. The Qur'an was composed into chapters during the time of Abubakar from the various materials on which it was written and from the memories of those who memorized it. These chapters were then composed intoone volume called the 'Mushaf' of Uthman. It was sent to various cities where the senior Sahabas (companions) lived for further scrutiny. All other volumes were burnt. The wisdom behind that cannot be disputed. The challenge of the authenticity of the contents of the Qur'an must be weighed and reflected in the challenge of Allah in Qur'an 4: Have they not considere the Qur'an? Had it been from other than allah, they would surely have found therein many contradictions. If you were to memorize the Qur'an and recite it with understanding, you will easily change, add and subtract, but still keeping its meaning. I have that experience from the example given in Wikipedia that made me never to recite the Qur'an during the Fajr prayer off head. There were few volumes of the Qur'an in circulation in the early period of Islam according to professor Azami. The wonders of the Qur'an is in its retention by children at the age of 5 years. The elderly always add and subrtract in reciting it according to meaning.
You said: I agree with you Friendship. There is some truth to what you say.
Response:; That truth is from Muhammad. I am only his messenger. It takes time to have a complete understanding of Muhammad.
You said: But I am not convinced the way of Mohamad is the correct way.
Response: I do not know the parameters you have considered. It is the physical world that directs one to reflect on Allah. Then one of its signs will certainly convince one of the Oneness of Allah. There are 84 such signs mentioned in the qur'an for mankind to choose analyse. Remember the song of the Children of Israel after the Exodus 15. Muhammad never stated that his way is the best. he challenged the then civilization in Qur'an 28:49, "The bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide than these two (the Book of Moses and Qur'an) that I may follow it, if you are truthful."
Well, experentially, you have to support the establishment of the Caliphate. That is where the way is.
 Friendship.
 
 

Friendship Said

Thanks very much for the link. Tampering with the Qur'an involves Gabriel and all that is between him and the moment Muhammad received the message, but never with Muhammad.

The link did not state that the Qur'nan was tampered with, but rather confirmed the true narration on how the Qur'an was collected. The Qur'an was composed into chapters during the time of Abubakar from the various materials on which it was written and from the memories of those who memorized it. These chapters were then composed intoone volume called the 'Mushaf' of Uthman. It was sent to various cities where the senior Sahabas (companions) lived for further scrutiny. All other volumes were burnt.

My Reply

Do not Muslims believe the the Quaran is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”? the Sunna Quaran means the Quran has been distorted, revised, modified and corrected, and textual alterations had taken place over the years purely by human hands.

The Qur'an composed into chapters, from human memory, word of human mouth and written by humans on various materials during the time of Abubakar. And then composed in to one volume by Uthman. All other volumes burnt. Why were they burnt? What was the matter with them ? and how do you know they were the same

Obviously not the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God ! A lot of human influence here!

 

 

Friendship Said

The challenge of the authenticity of the contents of the Qur'an must be weighed and reflected in the challenge of Allah in Qur'an 4:

My Reply

This is a circular argument. You are using your own Quran to support a criticism of the Quran. This is not logical.

 

 Friendship Said

Have they not considered the Qur'an? Had it been from other than allah, they would surely have found therein many contradictions.

My Reply

But there are many contradictions in the Quaran.

 

Friendship Said.

I do not know the parameters you have considered. It is the physical world that directs one to reflect on Allah. Then one of its signs will certainly convince one of the Oneness of Allah. There are 84 such signs mentioned in the qur'an for mankind to choose analyse. Remember the song of the Children of Israel after the Exodus 15. Muhammad never stated that his way is the best. he challenged the then civilization in Qur'an 28:49, "The bring a Book from Allah which is a better guide than these two (the Book of Moses and Qur'an) that I may follow it, if you are truthful."

Well, experentially, you have to support the establishment of the Caliphate. That is where the way is.

My Reply

The parameters I have considered? Yes the physical world has had an influence on me but my belief is not based on a parameter. It is from being in a relationship with the One living God.

Your Caliphate can only fail ! look at the past results of your caliphate. Three of your first four Caliphs were murdered. Ongoing civil war soon after Mohamad died and the Shia Sunni divide.



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 1:00am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


Read and think about it. Being a devout servant of your lord, you would sooner grab on to any 'explanation' which seems to solve your problem. Your whole life would come undone if any aspect of _______ is proved false. But i feel it is better to know the truth no matter the consequences.Try not to be emotional and use logic, not only in this discussion, but also in any other.
Greetings Mahdi,I'm thinking I could give you the same advice.and this;
"Would Jesus have made such a statement if he had been sent to save the whole world?
"
So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?Thanks,Caringheart


I have no opinion on 'Gentiles'. Your logic seems to be that Christianity has to be right otherwise 'Gentiles' have no hope. So you will rationalize everything no matter how absurd, farfetched or outlandish the explanation may be in order to retain a feeling of security. Even if you find any aspect of christianity problematic and unresolvable, you will think 'there has to be an explanation otherwise my salvation is lost. i wont go to heaven .it just has to be right' and then ignore the issue. If you want to discuss 'Gentiles' you can start a different topic so we do not stray from the topic at hand.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply

If It does not go into any detail about what it contained. Then how do you know what is false about it ?

You have no criteria to decide what was corrupted or not.

Does your Quaran says Christians changed the Injil ?

[/QUOTE


 
Sahih International
 
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
5:46
 
Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who foll
 
Sahih International
 
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
5:46
 
Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them] with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah . But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.
57:27
 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Greetings Abu Loren,I was recently having a similar conversation on another forum regarding the creeds of the Catholic church.The council of Nicea convened to discuss church doctrine and the creed which the church adhered to.  Prior to the meeting of the Nicene council, and the outcome of the Nicene creed, there was the Apostle's creed.  It is this creed that was changed and causes the split between the eastern and the western practices of faith in the church.  The Nicene creed is about the profession of faith in the Catholic church.  It had nothing to do with changing scripture.  Maybe this is where the confusion comes in for non-Christians.  This council would be more like meeting to discuss sunna or hadith... the interpretation of scripture.  300 bishops gathered at Nicea, there were 17 dissenters at first, and in the end only 3 dissenters to the interpretation of the scripture.  Seems pretty convincing to me.  So by a majority concensus the Nicene creed was adopted in place of the Apostle's creed.The Nicene controversy was over Jesus being, "one in being with the Father".The council convened due to a split occurring between east and west due to one Arius, who was considered a heretic and sought to teach a different thing from the church in Rome.
"Arius was an ascetic Christian presbyter in Alexandria, Egypt, of the church of Baucalis, and was of Libyan origins."
This difference in upbringing and distance of separation from the birthplace of the church, and the places where Jesus taught, makes a plausible explanation for his confusion and dissent... and also the later confusion of Muhammad.Blessings to you,Caringheart

So you cannot see the conspiracy within what you have just wrote?

The true disciples of Jesus (pbuh) was sidelined for the Pauline doctrine.


Not at all.  Have you ever read the two creeds?

Out of 300, 297 were in agreement.  I hardly call that a conspiracy.
A difference of opinion which was settled by a majority consensus through discussion and debate, is what it was.
Now if the followers of Muhammad could do this....
settle on one doctrine by majority consensus....


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


Read and think about it. Being a devout servant of your lord, you would sooner grab on to any 'explanation' which seems to solve your problem. Your whole life would come undone if any aspect of _______ is proved false. But i feel it is better to know the truth no matter the consequences.Try not to be emotional and use logic, not only in this discussion, but also in any other.
Greetings Mahdi,I'm thinking I could give you the same advice.and this;
"Would Jesus have made such a statement if he had been sent to save the whole world?
"
So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?Thanks,Caringheart


I have no opinion on 'Gentiles'. Your logic seems to be that Christianity has to be right otherwise 'Gentiles' have no hope. So you will rationalize everything no matter how absurd, farfetched or outlandish the explanation may be in order to retain a feeling of security. Even if you find any aspect of christianity problematic and unresolvable, you will think 'there has to be an explanation otherwise my salvation is lost. i wont go to heaven .it just has to be right' and then ignore the issue. If you want to discuss 'Gentiles' you can start a different topic so we do not stray from the topic at hand.


Greetings Mahdi,
This is not my rationale... it does seem to be your rationale.
These sound like arguments you may have heard against Islam, that you try to turn around on others.

What is the point of your thread?

Who do you think the Christians are?
They are the gentiles.
The gentiles are the "Christians you are not Israelites".

And truly some Christians are Israelites.  Jesus taught to the Jews.  There were Jews who believed in Him.  The original Apostles were Jewish... i.e., Israelites.  Unless you have a different definition for Israelite?

salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Experiential


The New Testament was written approximately from 55AD to 100AD. The Council of Nicea was 325AD. More than 300 years later !

The New testament was firmly established before Nicea



Thanks Experiential, I left out that part.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 1:41pm
Assalamu alaikum.
 
The language Jesus spread his Message is not spoken universally today. I do not find contradiction or controversy from the Jewish Rabbi. If there is contradiction and controversy in the Qur'an it is from those who are self-centered, biased with an agenda of assumption of superiority and not knowledgeable in Arabic language and the history of Islam.
What is the original hebrew/aramaic word meaning gentiles? What was the reason behind using the word? Was the word ever used by a prophet before Jesus son of Maryam?
 
Friendship.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 1:49pm
He has left them in a boat without a rudder...
He gives them Jesus, yet gives them nowhere to find Him.



Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 1:51pm
Assaalamu alaika Experirntial.
 
Let us be fair to written history believed to be indellible. We read that the Christian king in Ethiopia, Abbysinia gave refuge to the 25 or so persecuted followers of Muhammad for Muhammad commanded them to go the land of a Christian king where no one is wrongly dealt with. That was his confession.  It is unfair that knowledge is not spoken by the Christians. Also the party that came to Muhammad during the the period of deputation was well documented. When they were to leave they asked Muhammad to give them one of his people to settle their disputes. He sent Ibn Jarrah who stayed with the Christian Najran for about 9 months. I do no have the literaure confirming your assertion. My appeal to you is the universal appeal from Allah- Do not hide the truth. There is no compulsion in Islam. 
 
Friendship. 


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 1:59pm
Assaalamu alaika Experiential.
 
Question: Is the Torah not a circular argument? then the Qur'an must be a circular argument becuase it confirms what is in it.
Request: I will be glad to learn from you such contradictions provided you will follow the rules and regulations in explaining the Qur'an. Note there is different between translation and explaining the Qur'an.
I will tell you my experience with a Jew later.
 
Friend. 


Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 29 September 2012 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. VS Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.Time and place...Different times, different places... different point in the ministry of Jesus. That's no excuse.
Mahdi. You only have a conspiracy theory with no proof.
MATTHEW 15 24 He answered, “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel.” Not,'i will first preach to jews then gentiles' or 'i was sent to the whole world but first to jews'. Jesus excluded everybody else. Read and think about it. Being a devout servant of your lord, you would sooner grab on to any 'explanation' which seems to solve your problem. Your whole life would come undone if any aspect of christianity is proved false. But i feel it is better to know the truth no matter the consequences.Try not to be emotional and use logic, not only in this discussion, but also in any other. Would Jesus have made such a statement if he had been sent to save the whole world? And this is not an islam/Qur'an vs. Christianity/Bible discussion so please try to stay on topic.

Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,and then the end will come."Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit.."Mark 11:17 - "And as He taught them, He said, 'Is it not written: "My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations"? ...'" (Isaiah 56:7)Mark 13:10 - "And the gospel must first be preached to all nations."Mark 13:27 - "And He will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."Mark 16:15 - "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.'"Luke 2:31, 32 - "'which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for gloryto your people Israel.'"Luke 3:6 - "And all mankind will see God's salvation."Luke 24:47 - "..and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning atJerusalem." and on earth and under the earth.And your own Quaran –Sura19:21 He said, "Thus said your Lord, 'It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.'"Sura 21.91and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.Sura 3:3  He has revealed upon you this Scripture with the Truth, confirming that which was before it; and He revealed the Tawrât and the Injîl,


Please only quote verses where Jesus is the one speaking


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 September 2012 at 3:06pm
Greetings Mahdi,
It seems you missed my reply since you did not answer my questions but included me with the above, but I have quoted no verses.  Thanks.
So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?Thanks,Caringheart
I have no opinion on 'Gentiles'. Your logic seems to be that Christianity has to be right otherwise 'Gentiles' have no hope. So you will rationalize everything no matter how absurd, farfetched or outlandish the explanation may be in order to retain a feeling of security. Even if you find any aspect of christianity problematic and unresolvable, you will think 'there has to be an explanation otherwise my salvation is lost. i wont go to heaven .it just has to be right' and then ignore the issue. If you want to discuss 'Gentiles' you can start a different topic so we do not stray from the topic at hand.
Mahdi
Greetings Mahdi,
This is not my rationale... it does seem to be your rationale.
These sound like arguments you may have heard against Islam, that you try to turn around on others.

What is the point of your thread?

Who do you think the Christians are?
They are the gentiles.
The gentiles are the "Christians you are not Israelites".

And truly some Christians are Israelites.  Jesus taught to the Jews.  There were Jews who believed in Him.  The original Apostles were Jewish... i.e., Israelites.  Unless you have a different definition for Israelite?

salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:12am
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. VS Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. Sorry. My bad. Clearly no contradiction.Time and place...Different times, different places... different point in the ministry of Jesus. That's no excuse.
Mahdi. You only have a conspiracy theory with no proof.
MATTHEW 15 24 He answered, “I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel.” Not,'i will first preach to jews then gentiles' or 'i was sent to the whole world but first to jews'. Jesus excluded everybody else. Read and think about it. Being a devout servant of your lord, you would sooner grab on to any 'explanation' which seems to solve your problem. Your whole life would come undone if any aspect of christianity is proved false. But i feel it is better to know the truth no matter the consequences.Try not to be emotional and use logic, not only in this discussion, but also in any other. Would Jesus have made such a statement if he had been sent to save the whole world? And this is not an islam/Qur'an vs. Christianity/Bible discussion so please try to stay on topic.

Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,and then the end will come."Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit.."Mark 11:17 - "And as He taught them, He said, 'Is it not written: "My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations"? ...'" (Isaiah 56:7)Mark 13:10 - "And the gospel must first be preached to all nations."Mark 13:27 - "And He will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."Mark 16:15 - "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.'"Luke 2:31, 32 - "'which you have prepared in the sight of all people, a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for gloryto your people Israel.'"Luke 3:6 - "And all mankind will see God's salvation."Luke 24:47 - "..and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning atJerusalem." and on earth and under the earth.And your own Quaran –Sura19:21 He said, "Thus said your Lord, 'It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.'"Sura 21.91and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.Sura 3:3  He has revealed upon you this Scripture with the Truth, confirming that which was before it; and He revealed the Tawrât and the Injîl,


Please only quote verses where Jesus is the one speaking

My Reply

Ok Mahdi. Here they are. All of these were said by Jesus –

Matthew 24:14 - "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations,and then the end will come.

 

"Matthew 28:19 - "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of theSon and of the Holy Spirit..

 

"Mark 11:17 - "And as He taught them, He said, 'Is it not written: "My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations"? ...'" (Isaiah 56:7)

 

Mark 13:10 - "And the gospel must first be preached to all nations."

 

Mark 13:27 - "And He will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens."

 

Mark 16:15 - "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.'"

 

Luke 24:47 - "..and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." and on earth and under the earth.



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:15am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply

If It does not go into any detail about what it contained. Then how do you know what is false about it ?

You have no criteria to decide what was corrupted or not.

Does your Quaran says Christians changed the Injil ?

 
Sahih International
 
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
5:46
 
Then We sent following their footsteps Our messengers and followed [them

with Jesus, the son of Mary, and gave him the Gospel. And We placed in the hearts of those who followed him compassion and mercy and monasticism, which they innovated; We did not prescribe it for them except [that they did so] seeking the approval of Allah . But they did not observe it with due observance. So We gave the ones who believed among them their reward, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.
57:27
 
 

Sura 57.27 appears to be about monks and monasteries not about the Injil being corrupted.

Again your Quran, or you Muslims, or both, appear confused in that the Quaran says the Torah and Injil are of God but yet not to be trusted.

Contradiction!

Anyway it doesn’t mean much to me as I don’t believe in the Quaran anyway. Just don’t go trying to prove that Jesus only came for the Jews from the New Testament because I’ve already proven that is not true.



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:24am
What JESUS SAID PT 1
Matt 10:5-6)
Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

WHAT JESUS SAID PT2
Matthew28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Are the above complimentary or contradictory? Let us look at some more information.

Matthew 10:23

English Standard Version (ESV)

23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Maybe all nations = Israel




Galatians 2:11-13 New Living Translation (NLT) Paul Confronts Peter 11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him
to his face, for what he did
was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the
Gentile Christians, who were
not circumcised. But
afterward, when some friends
of James came, Peter wouldn’t
eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from
these people who insisted on
the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s
hypocrisy, and even Barnabas
was led astray by their
hypocrisy.

Having been instructed by Jesus to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid to be seen with gentiles? The evidence shows he never heard this instruction


ACTS 10: 27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a
large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against
our law for a Jew to associate
with or visit a Gentile. But God
has shown me that I should
not call anyone impure or
unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without
raising any objection. May I
ask why you sent for me?

Even after Jesus tells him to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid of breaking Jewish laws. He does not say 'Jesus instructed us to preach to all nations' so once again evidence shows he never heard this instruction



Galatians 2:7-9

New International Version (NIV)

7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a> just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas[c> and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

In spite of Jesus instructions, the disciples only go to the circumcised and entrust Paul to Gentiles. So much for all creation.


So people, based on the evidence, give a verdict. Did Jesus instruct his disciples to 'all creation'?


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:26am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assaalamu alaika Experiential.
 
Question: Is the Torah not a circular argument? then the Qur'an must be a circular argument becuase it confirms what is in it.
Request: I will be glad to learn from you such contradictions provided you will follow the rules and regulations in explaining the Qur'an. Note there is different between translation and explaining the Qur'an.
I will tell you my experience with a Jew later.
 
Friend. 

While similarities exist (as they do any religion) some very fundamental contradictions between Judaism and Islam exist.

For example –

The most important fundamental difference is that Judaism is based on animal sacrifice. Blood for blood, of which is symbolic of what Jesus would later achieve.  Islam is not based on this.

The two important  Jewish festivals of Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement)  and Pesakh (Passover ) are based on animal sacrifice. Again Jesus as the promised messiah ended the need for all animal sacrifice.

Other differences are

The Old Testament prophesies point to Jesus not Mohamad.

Also in Judaism freedom and truth will come through the line of the free woman and her son Sarah and Isaac not the slave woman Hagar and her son Ishmael.

Muslims believe in One God. Jews believe in One God with many aspects.

Jews worship God through their temple (although it is gone now) and in their belief in making sacrifice,

Also the al-ajar al-Aswad at Mecca certainly does not fit with Jewish thinking as Muslims would be seen as trying to worship God by bowing to a pagan rock.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:27am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assaalamu alaika Experirntial.
 
Let us be fair to written history believed to be indellible. We read that the Christian king in Ethiopia, Abbysinia gave refuge to the 25 or so persecuted followers of Muhammad for Muhammad commanded them to go the land of a Christian king where no one is wrongly dealt with. That was his confession.  It is unfair that knowledge is not spoken by the Christians. Also the party that came to Muhammad during the the period of deputation was well documented. When they were to leave they asked Muhammad to give them one of his people to settle their disputes. He sent Ibn Jarrah who stayed with the Christian Najran for about 9 months. I do no have the literaure confirming your assertion. My appeal to you is the universal appeal from Allah- Do not hide the truth. There is no compulsion in Islam. 
 
Friendship. 

Why should the Ethiopian King be spoken of by Christians? While it is interesting it is insignificant.

Regarding the Najran Christians see the link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_community_of_Najran - “However, in time they resisted the preaching’s of Islam; and as a penalty, they were forcibly expelled from the town of their forefathers.[7]”



Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:30am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.
 
The language Jesus spread his Message is not spoken universally today. I do not find contradiction or controversy from the Jewish Rabbi. If there is contradiction and controversy in the Qur'an it is from those who are self-centered, biased with an agenda of assumption of superiority and not knowledgeable in Arabic language and the history of Islam.
What is the original hebrew/aramaic word meaning gentiles? What was the reason behind using the word? Was the word ever used by a prophet before Jesus son of Maryam?
 
Friendship.

 

Friendship Said

The language Jesus spread his Message is not spoken universally today.

My Reply

So what if the language Jesus used is not spoken universally today ? Do you think God would be so small to limit himself to only one language like Arabic ( which even many Muslims do not speak)

 

 Friendship Said

I do not find contradiction or controversy from the Jewish Rabbi. If there is contradiction and controversy in the Qur'an it is from those who are self-centered, biased with an agenda of assumption of superiority and not knowledgeable in Arabic language and the history of Islam.

My Reply

Its funny you should say that, because that’s how I feel about Muslims. Look at the ridiculous beginning to this thread as an example of a Muslim being self-centered, biased with an agenda of assumption of superiority and not knowledgeable in Hebrew / Greek language and the history of Israel and Christianity.

 

Friendship Said

What is the original Hebrew / Aramaic word meaning gentiles? What was the reason behind using the word? Was the word ever used by a prophet before Jesus son of Maryam?

My Reply

The word “Gentile” is a Latin / English translation for the Hebrew word “Gowy” which usually means “ of other nations not of the Hebrew people. It is used a lot in the Old Testament. eg. Jeremiah 32.20. and is often used as keeping the Hebrew / Jewish people pure from idol worship and paganism.

 



Posted By: Mahdi The Seeke
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 2:16am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Mahdi,It seems you missed my reply since you did not answer my questions but included me with the above, but I have quoted no verses.  Thanks.
So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?Thanks,Caringheart

I have no opinion on 'Gentiles'. Your logic seems to be that
Christianity has to be right otherwise 'Gentiles' have no hope. So you
will rationalize everything no matter how absurd, farfetched or
outlandish the explanation may be in order to retain a feeling of
security. Even if you find any aspect of christianity problematic and
unresolvable, you will think 'there has to be an explanation otherwise
my salvation is lost. i wont go to heaven .it just has to be right' and
then ignore the issue. If you want to discuss 'Gentiles' you can start
a different topic so we do not stray from the topic at hand.Mahdi
Greetings Mahdi,This is not my rationale... it does seem to be your rationale.These sound like arguments you may have heard against Islam, that you try to turn around on others.What is the point of your thread?Who do you think the Christians are?They are the gentiles.The gentiles are the "Christians you are not Israelites".And
truly some Christians are Israelites.  Jesus taught to the Jews.  There
were Jews who believed in Him.  The original Apostles were Jewish...
i.e., Israelites.  Unless you have a different definition for Israelite?salaam,Caringheart


1.Gentiles are christians who are not israelites?really?
2.The point of my thread is to prove that Jesus was sent only to Israelites.
3.Tell me what your rationale is for asking your questions.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 October 2012 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?           Thanks,Caringheart
What is the point of your thread?
Who do you think the Christians are?
They are the gentiles.
The gentiles are the "Christians you are not Israelites".
And truly some Christians are Israelites.  Jesus taught to the Jews.  There were Jews who believed in Him.  The original Apostles were Jewish... i.e., Israelites. 
Unless you have a different definition for Israelite?           salaam,Caringheart

1.Gentiles are christians who are not israelites?really?
2.The point of my thread is to prove that Jesus was sent only to Israelites.
3.Tell me what your rationale is for asking your questions.


"Christians you are not Israelites"... in quotes... the title of your thread

The reason for my questions is that I am simply trying to figure out the point of your thread.


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 03 October 2012 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

What JESUS SAID PT 1
Matt 10:5-6)
Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

WHAT JESUS SAID PT2
Matthew28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Are the above complimentary or contradictory? Let us look at some more information.

Matthew 10:23

English Standard Version (ESV)

23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Maybe all nations = Israel




Galatians 2:11-13 New Living Translation (NLT) Paul Confronts Peter 11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him
to his face, for what he did
was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the
Gentile Christians, who were
not circumcised. But
afterward, when some friends
of James came, Peter wouldn’t
eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from
these people who insisted on
the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s
hypocrisy, and even Barnabas
was led astray by their
hypocrisy.

Having been instructed by Jesus to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid to be seen with gentiles? The evidence shows he never heard this instruction


ACTS 10: 27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a
large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against
our law for a Jew to associate
with or visit a Gentile. But God
has shown me that I should
not call anyone impure or
unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without
raising any objection. May I
ask why you sent for me?

Even after Jesus tells him to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid of breaking Jewish laws. He does not say 'Jesus instructed us to preach to all nations' so once again evidence shows he never heard this instruction



Galatians 2:7-9

New International Version (NIV)

7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a> just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas[c> and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

In spite of Jesus instructions, the disciples only go to the circumcised and entrust Paul to Gentiles. So much for all creation.


So people, based on the evidence, give a verdict. Did Jesus instruct his disciples to 'all creation'?
 
Mahdi Said

What JESUS SAID PT 1

Matt 10:5-6)

Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

WHAT JESUS SAID PT2

Matthew28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

 

Are the above complimentary or contradictory?

My Reply

Complimentary.

 

Mahdi Said

Let us look at some more information. Matthew 10:23

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Maybe all nations = Israel

My Reply

Mahdi. Its true -  they actually did not go through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man came, because the Son of Man did come -  after his resurrection.

 

Mahdi Said

Galatians 2:11-13. Paul Confronts Peter but when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision.  As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

 

Having been instructed by Jesus to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid to be seen with gentiles? The evidence shows he never heard this instruction.

My Reply

No. It shows Peter was afraid himself of preaching to the gentiles because he was a Jew – not that he hadn’t heard it or that he didn’t support other people doing it.

 Read Gal 2:9 and you will see. “They (Peter) agreed that we (Paul) should go to the Gentiles, and they (Peter) to the Jews.”

Peter would not have agreed if he didn’t think the gentiles should be preached to. 

 

Mahdi Said

Galatians 2:7-9 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

 

In spite of Jesus instructions, the disciples only go to the circumcised and entrust Paul to Gentiles. So much for all creation.

My Reply

As a Jew Peter was afraid himself of preaching to the gentiles but he agreed that Paul should go to the Gentiles. Peter understood – first to the Jews and then to the non Jew.

Peter knew he himself had to finish the work to the Jews while at the same time he supported others such as Paul going to the gentiles.

There were others of Jesus twelve apostles who also went to the gentiles. For example Thomas went to the gentiles in India.

 

Mahdi Said

So people, based on the evidence, give a verdict. Did Jesus instruct his disciples to 'all creation'?

My Reply

yes 

 

Mahdi Said

ACTS 10: 27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate

with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?

 

Even after Jesus tells him to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid of breaking Jewish laws. He does not say 'Jesus instructed us to preach to all nations' so once again evidence shows he never heard this instruction.

My Reply

Actually you are wrong. Peter said in Acts 10:34 -36 "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.  You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.”

Also Peter in Acts 10 did go to the house of Cornelius the Roman gentile. He wouldn’t have done that if he believed Jesus message was only to the Jews What it shows is that Peter as a strong Jew was afraid or hesitant and he believed first to the Jew and then later to the gentile. It was the timing he was not sure about, and whether it should be him that should do it or some one else .

 

In conclusion Peter understood, first to the Jews and then to the non Jew. Peter knew he had to finish the work to the Jews while at the same time he supported others such as Paul going to the gentiles.

You are simply picking and choosing your verses to support your own beliefs. Read the verses in context.

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 04 October 2012 at 3:20am
Originally posted by Caringheart


"Christians you are not Israelites"... in quotes... the title of your threadThe reason for my questions is that I am simply trying to figure out the point of your thread.


If I may be permitted to answer. You and many Christians are really confused to say the least. You seem to believe that you have something in common with Jews and Judaism.

Let me explain once more for you....Paul took away the 'Jewishness' when he defeated the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh). He suppressed the teachings of Peter and became an adversary, then using his authority as a Pharisees and a Roman citizen he went on an all out assault on the true followers of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. Then Paul claimed to have a 'vision' of the risen Jesus (pbuh) when he wasn't even crucified. Crucifxion then became Crucifiction and a completely new religion was born with Roman paganism thrown in to the mix. This new religion spread throughout the Empire and everybody was happy.

Therefore, Christians are NOT ISRAELITES!


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 04 October 2012 at 5:38am
Assalamu alaikum.
 
What bothers me with the Christians is they are not ready to reason by examining their scriptures and what was written on it by their authorities. There is no authority believing in what they are trying to cover. We are looking for a peaceful environment but the Christians seems to dislike that. Pointing out such discrepancies and uncertainties regarding Christianity  does not mean a denigration of anything. I believe in Jesus son of Maryam as a Messenger and Prophet and as such I must protect him from saying something that disagrees with what was revealed before him on the platform of one God. I have had a lot of discussions with the Jews and it seems they are more ready to accept Muhammad provided the followers of Muhammad behaved better.
My advise to the organizers of this forum is to have a separate forum between the Muslims and Jews. We cannot go further by the time those who do not believe in Allah, disbelieved in the Torah and refuse to reason join the forum. How can a person without a foot walk and a hand grasp something?
An Arab poet said:
 
إن البناء اذا بنى على غير اس لم يكد يأ تدل 
Meaning: any structure not built or standing on a sound/ strong foundation is bound to collapse.
There are also parables in the NT confirming this poetary.
Let the Christians realize that we are not supporting any name tied to the Sunna of Muhammad except the pure and exemplary teaching of Muhammad. Muhammad did not teach for example Wahabism or any ism nor called one ahl-al-sunna wal jama'at or gave his grandchildren positions above other human beings. There is not concept of foreigners or gentiles in his Sunna. We are aware of the position given to Banu Hashim that they do not accept Sadaqat and that he appeals to us to be kind to them.  
If we want peace, then those who want to establish it from the followers of Muhammad must be supported by all. We are not looking for worldly positions or any fame. We can hand over the keys to all the oil wells in the world to those who helped in establishing the Caliphate.  
The time for joking, jesting and hair-splitting argument is over. It is time we face the ways and means we can fight recession, unemployment al-qaeeda and Taliban.
 
Friendship.
 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 October 2012 at 11:59am
Originally posted by Abu Loren



Abu Loren,

Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with in the teaching of Paul? 

Thanks,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 October 2012 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.
 
I have had a lot of discussions with the Jews and it seems they are more ready to accept Muhammad provided the followers of Muhammad behaved better.
My advise to the organizers of this forum is to have a separate forum between the Muslims and Jews.

An Arab poet said:
 
إن البناء اذا بنى على غير اس لم يكد يأ تدل 
Meaning: any structure not built or standing on a sound/ strong foundation is bound to collapse.

 There is not concept of foreigners or gentiles in his Sunna. We are aware of the position given to Banu Hashim that they do not accept Sadaqat and that he appeals to us to be kind to them. 
 
Friendship.
 


Greetings Friendship,

Is it possible to engage the people of Judaism in discussion?  Where do you go to engage them?  I too, have tried to find them to seek their views.


Regarding;
إن البناء اذا بنى على غير اس لم يكد يأ تدل 
Meaning: any structure not built or standing on a sound/ strong foundation is bound to collapse.
I believe you put the cart before the horse...
this was a teaching of Jesus.  Who came first Jesus, or the poet?
"There is not concept of foreigners or gentiles in his Sunna. We are aware of the position given to Banu Hashim that they do not accept Sadaqat and that he appeals to us to be kind to them. "
I respectfully have to disagree with that statement, but I appreciate the efforts you are trying to make in the cause of peace between people.

Salaam, Caringheart


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 04 October 2012 at 10:07pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

It is the duty of you in Europe to do  so. I have met them so many times and they love Muslims who are intelligent and non violent. They are however marginalized.
You said: I believe you put the cart before the horse...
this was a teaching of Jesus.  Who came first Jesus, or the poet?
Response. Note that as I have been trying to emphasize true Islam does not exclude a single letter from what Allah revealed to Jesus. I think in another thread I explained that. Are you saying that the way Abraham circumcised himself, Ishmael first was different from the way he circumcised Isaac and Jacob, Essau later? Was the first son at the age of 96 different from the second son at the age of 100. Let us  stop joking please. We are adults and not children!
Caringheart! Note that it is not the Qur'an that is the source of peace. You speak English fluently, but you must go to a doctor to prescribe for you. You must go to a surgeon to operate on you. There are many branches of surgery. IT IS CERTAINLY THE SUNNA THAT IS THE LIFE HISTORY OF MUHAMMAD THE ARBITRATOR OF PEACE. YOU ARE DECEIVED BY THE WAHABIS AND SALAFIS TO READ THE QUR'AN. YOU WILL ONLY UNDERSTAND IT IN THE UNIVERSITY. FOR EXAMPLE DO YOU UNDERSTAND EMBROYOLOGY OUTSIDE A UNIVERSITY. HOW DO YOU KNOW THE STRUCTURE OF UTERUS AND ITS HISTOLOGY BLOOD AND NERVOUS SUPPLY OTHER THAN IN THE UNIVERSITY! DID MUHAMMAD TELL YOU THE NUMBER OF SPERM CELLS, THEIR MORPHOLOGY, VISCOSITY ETC? ALLAH MENTIONED INFERTILITY, DID HE OR MUHAMMAD TELL YOU THE CAUSES? BRING A MUSLIM DOCTOR, A JEW AN ATHEIST HUMANIST TOGETHER. WILL THEY DIFFER IN THE CAUSES OF INFERTILITY?
Your rejecting the Sunna of Muhammad is the cause of terrorism.
THE WEST IS THE AXIS OF EVIL AND SOURCE OF TERRORISM AND NOT TRUE FOLLOWERS OF MUHAMMAD WHO UNDERSTOOD HIS LIFE HISTORY.

FRIENDSHIP.




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