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Comparative studies 2

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23615
Printed Date: 01 September 2014 at 8:15am


Topic: Comparative studies 2
Posted By: Caringheart
Subject: Comparative studies 2
Date Posted: 01 August 2012 at 5:42pm
My study of the Qur'an and a few questions.

1. Does no Muslim ever consider the fact that Allah everywhere in the Qur'an refers to Himself as We?
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“And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. (Qur’an; 3:50, 51).

2. Who is speaking here... is not God the one who is speaking, referring to Himself, saying that I come?  I, God, in the form of Jesus.

and compare to this;
18 
Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?  (Isaiah)
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a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him  (Qur'an 4:171)

3. It matters here, where you place the comma...
i.e., a messenger of Allah and His Word, which He conveyed unto Mary and a Spirit from Him (?)
This would read entirely differently.

Also doesn't this imply that Jesus is the Spirit of God... "a spirit from Him"
God and His Word conveyed through the Spirit in Jesus(human form)?
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I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith to the Day of Resurrection;  (Qur’an; 3:54-55)
(be sure to go and read the whole passage in context to see that this is God speaking of Jesus)

4. Doe this not confirm the Christian message?  the resurrection?  the message given to Paul to go to the gentiles?

then shall ye all return unto Me and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.(Qur’an; 3:54-55)

“That they said (in boast) “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah”; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not.  Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise." (Qur'an 4:157)

5. And I know this is a matter of contention but this could easily be taken to mean what Christians always proclaim... "He lives!"  
"Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise"  
It confirms the Christian message... the resurrection of Jesus and that Jesus lives, He is not dead.  He triumphed over death.  This is the essence of the Christian message.  
The Jews only cling to the belief (i.e., "it was made to appear to them") that Jesus was killed... that He was only a man.  The Jews were left full of doubts... "those who differ therein".

I feel that the Qur'an confirms and  disafirms the Bible... and therein in is the problem with Muhammad, and therein is the confusion of Islam.

You must examine your scriptures.

11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica,  for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures  every day to see if what Paul said was true.   12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.
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"Muslim is a person who SUBMITS HIS WILL TO GOD"
So is the true Christian.  Praying in the words given by Jesus:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven...

Thy will, not mine own, is the essence of the true (forgotten by many) Christian message.  But there are many who have not forgotten, too. Smile

3:113 They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate (before Him).    
3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous.    
3:115 And whatever good they do, they will not be denied the meed thereof. Allah is Aware of those who ward off (evil).

Salaam.



Replies:
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 02 August 2012 at 12:37pm
As'alaamu Alaikkum
 
1. Does no Muslim ever consider the fact that Allah everywhere in the Qur'an refers to Himself as We?
 
Yes, it is the Royal WE as it is in the Bible.
 
2. Who is speaking here... is not God the one who is speaking, referring to Himself, saying that I come? I, God, in the form of Jesus.
 
Jesus (pbuh) is indeed speaking here but he is speaking as a man and a prophet.
 
3. It matters here, where you place the comma...
i.e., a messenger of Allah and His Word, which He conveyed unto Mary and a Spirit from Him (?)
This would read entirely differently.
 
If you read the whole verse it maks perfect sense.
 
Sahih International
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 4:171

4. Doe this not confirm the Christian message? the resurrection? the message given to Paul to go to the gentiles?

No, this in context tells us that Jesus will be raised up to Himself when they came to kill him on the cross.

 


 

 





Posted By: flyffdzd
Date Posted: 03 August 2012 at 2:27am
you are so careful to make them together.

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Everything is good!


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 August 2012 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum
 
1. Does no Muslim ever consider the fact that Allah everywhere in the Qur'an refers to Himself as We?
 
Yes, it is the Royal WE as it is in the Bible.
 
2. Who is speaking here... is not God the one who is speaking, referring to Himself, saying that I come? I, God, in the form of Jesus.
 
Jesus (pbuh) is indeed speaking here but he is speaking as a man and a prophet.
 
3. It matters here, where you place the comma...
i.e., a messenger of Allah and His Word, which He conveyed unto Mary and a Spirit from Him (?)
This would read entirely differently.
 
If you read the whole verse it maks perfect sense.
 
Sahih International
O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs. 4:171

4. Doe this not confirm the Christian message? the resurrection? the message given to Paul to go to the gentiles?

No, this in context tells us that Jesus will be raised up to Himself when they came to kill him on the cross.

 


 

 



 
Jazakallah, well said brother,
Hasan 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 August 2012 at 8:28pm
It didn't say anything.  Didn't answer the questions I posed.
Didn't imply any serious consideration or thought.  Unhappy

Re: #1 - "Yes, it is the Royal WE as it is in the Bible."
What does this mean, because I have no idea what you are referring to.

Re:  #2 - You say that the whole of the Qur'an is God speaking, so this has to be God saying "I come".  Have you taken time to think about it?  to really reason it out?

Re:  #3 - I see you have used a different translation.
soul vs. spirit
which are different things, having different meaning.

Re: #4 and 5 - No.  In this context it can mean what you say, but it can just as easily mean what I say.  It would be nice if you could admit this.

That would be a step towards progress in understanding between us.
Smile Heart


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 05 August 2012 at 12:57pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.


Note that: 3:50 is linked to 3:49. The word 'And' is linked to 'I have come to you' in 3:49.
2. There is no comma after Maryam. Jersus son of Maryam is addressed as the Spirit of Allah.
3. Who gave Paul the Message?
4. Rather the Christians are the ones to examine the Bible. No open can convince you of the certainty and standing position of the Qur'an besides yourself. There are many such passages.
If we are able to produce the like of the Qur'an we certainly have being living peacefully today and no one will ever think of manufacturing arms.
Remember the emphasis in Genesis on Positive Command to Adam.
Please let me know what is your motive.

Friendship


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 August 2012 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

Note that: 3:50 is linked to 3:49. The word 'And' is linked to 'I have come to you' in 3:49.
2. There is no comma after Maryam. Jersus son of Maryam is addressed as the Spirit of Allah.
3. Who gave Paul the Message?
4. Rather the Christians are the ones to examine the Bible. No open can convince you of the certainty and standing position of the Qur'an besides yourself. There are many such passages.
If we are able to produce the like of the Qur'an we certainly have being living peacefully today and no one will ever think of manufacturing arms.
Remember the emphasis in Genesis on Positive Command to Adam.
Please let me know what is your motive.

Friendship


Greetings Friendship,
No motive other than to study and seek truth.  I am reading the Qur'an, and as with all things, as I study, I have questions.
I made note about the comma because in translating if punctuation is not placed properly it can change the whole meaning of a sentence.  I wonder if this sentence could be translated differently?

Re: 3:49 and 50... yes, I read it clearly now.  Thanks.

True, the Christian is told to examine the scriptures and prove their worth so as not to be misled by false teachers.
True, the Qur'an says differently.  It says that simply reading will prove its worth.
I am not sure that these are such different things.  'Examining the scriptures' really translates to daily reading so as not to lose touch with God, so as to always have His Word living in you to avoid the deceits of the devil.  'Renewing your minds' is a command from the Bible.  'Purify my soul with Your Word'.
I guess the point I am making is that Christians do not fear to examine the scriptures.  They are even instructed to do so.  This is what protects them from corruption by a different teaching.  They also do not fear to answer hard questions about their faith, having examined the scriptures to know their Truth. 
They do not insist that faith be accepted on the word of another, but is best examined  and determined for one's own self.  Which is like what you said, "No one can convince you of the certainty and standing position of the Qur'an besides yourself."  ... but one must be able to ask the questions and receive satisfactory answers.  Smile

I don't know what you are referring to about Genesis and the positive command to Adam.  A portion of the Qur'an that I have not yet read?

My understanding of Paul is that Jesus, risen to heaven, spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus, and from that time Paul was converted to serve Jesus.  From that time forward he understood and was in communion with God.

I appreciate your reply.  Smile
Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 August 2012 at 3:08pm
"it is the Royal WE as it is in the Bible."

Today I have done further study.  In the Hebrew, the word used in the scriptures is Elohim... one in plurality.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 10:40pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

I am getting along well with you. I like the truth and I am not biased. I have been reading the bible for 50 years now.
I do not know if you have ever read the commentary of the Holy Bible by Reverend Matthew Henry and also the book of Rambam that is Maimonoides. I have dialogue with the Jewish Rabbi also.
In explaining the Shari'a (I do not know what word Allah used during Adam) Henry cautioned that the command to Adam was on positive command and that he was able and had the capacity to execute it. The command was not negative. According to my understanding he is saying Allah never commands one to do evil. Now, Muhammad also came with the same concept. But this is not the teaching and fatwa of the Muslims. They are teaching people to commit homicide, cheat, pray wrongly, put themselves is difficulty etc. Just Imagine the People of Sweden complaining of difficulty in fasting while Allah says clearly that if you have difficulty you should not fast! Muslims do not read and even if they they do follow the guidelines and procedures given in understanding Muhammad. What I am trying to draw is for us today to throw away all the rubbish said about the scriptures and understand it according to our situation and need. We must distinguish between understanding and worship!

Friendship.
 



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 9:57pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.



Assalamu alaika Friendship,
"I am getting along well with you."
That is nice to hear. Smile
" I have dialogue with the Jewish Rabbi also."
I envy you.  I need to do more exploration into understanding Judaism.
Bar'chu et Adonai

I seek all different sources of information on religion and try to form a balanced and unbiased opinion also.  If I have read anything written by the Rev. Matthew Henry, I am unaware of it. 

I still don't understand what you are saying about Adam.  Is this something from the Qur'an?

Salaam,
Caringheart




Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 2:20pm
Caringheart,
it does not matter from which angle you look at at, when Jesus said "I returning to my God and your God" will it change what it means? I don't see any way to escape!
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 10:04pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

In Islam there are many books explaining the holy Qur'an. This is what is called Tafsir or exposition of minutest details. There are about 49 major books explaining the holy Qur'an. Then there are history books explaining the life of the holy Apostle - the hadith. There are 3 or 4 broad headings with about 50 authors. Then there are the Fiqh books explaining the hadiths. This is what is making the functions and duties of Muhammad yet to be understood in the world. No Muslim country is teaching the duties and functions of Muhammad in the manner for example a medical student learn the basic sciences before he starts clinical work. This is what is responsible for all the atrocities and difficulties we are tasting and sucking.
This system is not available in the people of the previous scriptures. The commentary of the Holy Bible by Reverend Matthew Henry is the only commentary I have on the Bible. The Jews have the Maimonides. A bipartisan unbiased Muslim scholar with knowledge of the sciences of the holy Qur'an, the hadiths will definitely find what those authors wrote very close to what the holy Apostle explained and practiced.
The commentary in the book of Genesis on Adam by Reverend Matthew is very important for all to study to fill in the gaps in the Qur'an and the book of Genesis. Adam had no previous experience of what Law is and what sin is, unlike those who came after him. His offense was not intentional- through deception- thus forgiven.  Note that the holy Qur'an always makes reference with the past and that there will be no change or alteration. That is the basis of the discipline taught by Muhammad.

Friendship.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 10:16pm
Oh my!

Greetings Friendship,
There are plenty of Bible commentaries other than the one you mention.  Just do a Google search.
Thanks for the other information though.
Smile Heart

http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/

"Adam had no previous experience of what Law is and what sin is, unlike those who came after him. His offense was not intentional- through deception- thus forgiven."
Ah. yes, this is written about in the Bible.
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Is it written about in the Qur'an?  I could add it to my comparative studies.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 12:11pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

Thanks very much. I have gone briefly through the first pages.
Friendship


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 August 2012 at 12:39pm
Jesus said "I returning to my God and your God" will it change what it means? I don't see any way to escape Caringheart!
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 January 2013 at 12:31pm
Ra was all powerful and his power came from his Secret Name. This gave him the power to create a thing just by calling its name.



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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 2:28pm
Caringheart, care to answer the valid question I posted, or you do not have an answer?
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 28 January 2013 at 4:18pm
I'm sorry Hasan, your question made no sense to me.
Salaam,
Caringheart

Note:  I wish if you were going to respond it might be to the most recent thing posted.  Any thoughts on that?



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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 29 January 2013 at 11:44pm
<>

Originally posted by Caringheart

My study of the Qur'an and a few questions.

1. Does no Muslim ever consider the fact that Allah everywhere in the Qur'an refers to Himself as We?
_______________________________

“And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. (Qur’an; 3:50, 51).

2. Who is speaking here... is not God the one who is speaking, referring to Himself, saying that I come?  I, God, in the form of Jesus.

and compare to this;
18 
Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?  (Isaiah)

Salaam.

 

Peace my friend,

 

I can see you are spreading your wings! Anyway, don’t try to explain what is not there. The “I” ie an addition to indicate it was Jesus (S). Let me show you, I HAVE ADD BLUE TO EXPLAIN:

 

3:45 (Y. Ali) Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. 3:46 (Y. Ali) "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." 3:47 (Y. Ali) She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! 3:48 (Y. Ali) "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, 3:49 (Y. Ali) "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): (THE MESSAGE IS:) "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; 3:50 (Y. Ali) "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

 

YOU SEE VERSE 50 MENTIONED, “I have come to you”, it is not there in the Arabic that is why the put it in bracket so that you can read the whole message in context: In other words, God Almighty will send him with a message saying “I” come

 

 

Br. zainool


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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!



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