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comparative studies

Printed From: IslamiCity.org
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23598
Printed Date: 30 August 2016 at 12:20am


Topic: comparative studies
Posted By: Caringheart
Subject: comparative studies
Date Posted: 29 July 2012 at 9:02pm
an invite to discussion/dialogue.
Dialogue
1.  conversation between two or more persons.
3.  an exchange of ideas or opinions on a particular issue, especially a political or religious issue, with a view to reaching an amicable agreement or settlement.
4. to carry on a dialogue; converse.
5. to discuss areas of disagreement frankly in order to resolve them.
Discussion
1. an extended communication (often interactive) dealing with some particular topic
2. an exchange of views on some topic


"Whatever you do for the least of my brothers..." (Matthew 25:31-46)(Christian message)

Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection." - Sahih Bukhari Volume 003, Book 043, Hadith Number 622. (message of Muhammad)

We have different definitions of who a brother is...
Christianity embraces all mankind.

Narated By 'Abdullah bin 'Amr : The Prophet said, "A Muslim is the one who avoids harming Muslims with his tongue and hands. - Sahih Bukhari Volume 001, Book 002, Hadith Number 009.

Problem:  Here again, Muslims are instructed only to treat other Muslims well.  (prejudice)

and here again;
Narated By Anas : The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself." - Sahih Bukhari Volume 001, Book 002, Hadith Number 012.

Which is the honorable teaching... the one that is free of man and man's way of thinking?
Wouldn't it seem more Godly to say that the Muslim is the one who avoids harming any other with his tongue or his hands?
This is what the Christian teaching says... love one another...
the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

treat others as you yourself would want to be treated... no qualifications to say love one another as long as they as Christian, or treat others well only if they share your belief.  Jesus treated everyone well.  Are you familiar with the story of the good samaritan?  Are you familiar with Jesus walking with the lepers, eating with sinners?  Are you familiar with Jesus who said; I came to save the lost.
“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” - the words of Jesus (Mark 2, Luke 5)

Which is most holy?

Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”  (Matthew 9, and also Hosea 6:6)


Now I know what I see in the Muslim way of life... but what is in the Muslim thinking... in the teaching?

Thanking those willing to participate in discussion.
Heart

surah 58:22 is just an interpretation of what Jesus said in Matthew... I bring not peace but a sword... enemies of ones own household... those who believe and those who do not....

except that it reverses the message of Jesus. Whereas Jesus was saying that you will be hated by those who do not believe in me, and they will be members even of your own household...

Muhammad says, you will not find those believing in me loving those who do not. These are two very different messages, for whatever the reasons. Perhaps Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures or perhaps he just translated them poorly to his own people.

Jesus was the essence of Love and wanted us to love the lost. The message of Jesus is that it is through love that the lost may be brought to God.

surah 5:82

Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud

What Muhammad was seeing in the Christians was their Love, the Love that comes from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Christians willing to reach out in Love and acceptance to those who do not believe, rather than condemn them, as Jesus did not condemn but rather invited to repentance. This is why Muhammad felt that the Christians were accepting of him where the Jews and idol worshipers were not. The difference is Christ Jesus. What he was seeing was the Love of Christians that comes through Christ.




Replies:
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 01 August 2012 at 10:19am
Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is the final messenger of God send to mankind and the Holy Qur'an is the final revelation. All that has been sent before this are null and void and defunct. All those who do not believe in this new revelation are outside of His mercy. For salvation you must believe in Muhammed (pbuh) and his message.
 
Sahih International
Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. 2:109


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 01 August 2012 at 12:58pm
Caringheart,
something is going on. I have replied to your post before here and other threads but somehow many of those posts have disappeared or erased, by whom? only Allah knows.
I am so excited about this thread, comparative studies on religion is my favorite. We are going to have a lot of learning in this one, God willing.

Anyway I will try to answer your post agian. First I must say, based on your writing, it appears either you are mixing up things or you are mixed up dear. And I will try to show you where.
The quote you are using actually use word "brother" as well: So you cannot use that to say that it also means those who did not believe Jesus. Those who did not believe in him being the Messiah, whom Jesus according to the Bible condemned and called names in various verses.

So through select verses you were trying to show that
Christianity somehow delivers more than Islam!
And you do that under the label of "comparative studies".
I smell something fishy or simply you are "putting too much cream to your tacos" (just a saying here in Hispanic culture)              

First of all, being good toward all is a universal teaching, a Hindu will not step on an ant for example. All religions teach to be good toward others, including Islam. Simply because all religions have one origin, as mankind emerged from one man, Adam, who was guided to worship one God. It is children who strayed from that one path. God's Love and Mercy showed in form of His guidance through various prophets to correct our path.

The Quran is the primary source for a believer's guidance. And the Quran says on many places to be good not just to your fellow Muslims but toward all, in fact toward all of God's creation. To say otherwise is simply naive and ignorant of Islamic teachings.

2:177 (Picktall) It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing.


Prophets were sent by God to be living examples of how a true believer should be. Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was a great example of how a true believer should be, and so was Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) who was loved and respected by people of the book, who used to ask him to be a judge in matters that needed his wisdom and honesty toward a just decision. He was kind toward those who personally hated him and who tried to hurt him. In turn he looked for them and their well being and instead of take a revenge showed kindness to them, a true beauty of Islam.

So, on that issue you cannot compare Islam to any as Islam set examples that others still have to follow. Christians of different colors may still not sit in the same church to offer worship to God here in US and in many other countries, but God through Islam declared that a man is not better than another man because of his color or race.
These words the Prophet spoke more than 1400 years ago during his last sermon :

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."

Hasan   

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 August 2012 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is the final messenger of God send to mankind and the Holy Qur'an is the final revelation. All that has been sent before this are null and void and defunct. All those who do not believe in this new revelation are outside of His mercy. For salvation you must believe in Muhammed (pbuh) and his message.
 
Sahih International
Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. 2:109



3:113 They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate (before Him).
3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous.
3:115 And whatever good they do, they will not be denied the meed thereof. Allah is Aware of those who ward off (evil).



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 August 2012 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
something is going on. I have replied to your post before here and other threads but somehow many of those posts have disappeared or erased, by whom? only Allah knows.
I am so excited about this thread, comparative studies on religion is my favorite. We are going to have a lot of learning in this one, God willing.


Christians of different colors may still not sit in the same church to offer worship to God here in US
Hasan   


Sorry but I can not really respond since you didn't really respond to what I had written... but these two things...
"something is going on. I have replied to your post before here and other threads but somehow many of those posts have disappeared or erased, by whom? only Allah knows. "
Yes I know... frustrating and discouraging.  It is difficult to hold a conversation when you put in the time, and then half of what you took the time for disappears, and the thread of the conversation is lost... pieces missing.
"Christians of different colors may still not sit in the same church to offer worship to God here in US "
I don't know where you are at, but I know of churches all across the country where you have all races present.   Have you ever attended a church meeting?



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 02 August 2012 at 12:46pm
 
This is talking about the Christians and Jews who converted to Islam. See the following tasfir.
 
Yet they, the People of the Scripture, are not all alike, equal; some of the People of the Scripture are a community upright, with integrity, adhering to the truth, such as ‘Abd Allāh b. Salām, may God be pleased with him and his companions, who recite God’s verses in the watches of the night, that is, during its hours, prostrating themselves, performing prayer (wa-hum yasjudūn, ‘prostrating themselves’, is a circumstantial qualifier).

 


Posted By: flyffdzd
Date Posted: 03 August 2012 at 2:29am
Prophets were sent by God to be living examples of how a true believer should be.

-------------
Everything is good!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 August 2012 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

 
This is talking about the Christians and Jews who converted to Islam. See the following tasfir.
 
Yet they, the People of the Scripture, are not all alike, equal; some of the People of the Scripture are a community upright, with integrity, adhering to the truth, such as ‘Abd Allāh b. Salām, may God be pleased with him and his companions, who recite God’s verses in the watches of the night, that is, during its hours, prostrating themselves, performing prayer (wa-hum yasjudūn, ‘prostrating themselves’, is a circumstantial qualifier).

 


Right.  Muhammad was always adding qualifiers as afterthoughts.  I thought Qur'an is supposed to be sufficient.  This is why I am unconvinced of Muhammad as prophet of God.  I see him as more of a man advancing his own agenda, which is not to say it was a bad agenda, or that it did not accomplish good things for a time... and still can.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
something is going on. I have replied to your post before here and other threads but somehow many of those posts have disappeared or erased, by whom? only Allah knows.
I am so excited about this thread, comparative studies on religion is my favorite. We are going to have a lot of learning in this one, God willing.

Christians of different colors may still not sit in the same church to offer worship to God here in US Hasan   [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="middle" />
Sorry but I can not really respond since you didn't really respond to what I had written... but these two things...
"something is going on. I have replied to your post before here and
other threads but somehow many of those posts have disappeared or
erased, by whom? only Allah knows.
"
Yes I know... frustrating and discouraging.  It is difficult to hold a conversation when you put in the time, and then half of what you took the time for disappears, and the thread of the conversation is lost... pieces missing.
"Christians of different colors may still not sit in the same church to offer worship to God here in US "
I don't know where you are at, but I know of churches all across the country where you have all races present.   Have you ever attended a church meeting?


Caringheart,
there may be churches that have mixed race members, but I was talking about race based Churches here in the US. Black churches and only white churches all along southern states. It is a common phenomenon, its strange that you seem to be unaware of that.
I have visited several churches in the past.

I did not see you address rest of my post above.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Caringheart


Sorry but I can not really respond since you didn't really respond to what I had written... but these two things...


Caringheart,
there may be churches that have mixed race members, but I was talking about race based Churches here in the US. Black churches and only white churches all along southern states. It is a common phenomenon, its strange that you seem to be unaware of that.
I have visited several churches in the past.

I did not see you address rest of my post above.
Hasan


Hello Hasan,
"Sorry but I can not really respond since you didn't really respond to what I had written... but these two things..."
Did you miss that part of my last reply?  Smile

[edit]
or perhaps I just could not understand what it was you were trying to say?  What can be said about passages in the Qur'an that always have qualifiers about who to like, who to help?  and yet you say the Qur'an says love all.  I see that the Qur'an is very conflicting in what it says.  It's either 'love only those who proclaim to be Muslim' or it is 'love all'.  Which is it that Allah says?  It seems Allah says both.  Whereas, Jesus said 'love all' without qualification.  Jesus never separated Himself from anyone.  He came to call the lost not condemn them.

It is comparative... what Muhammad taught vs. what Jesus taught.
Muhammad seems to have been confused.  Is God a God of confusion? [end edit]

Regarding the separate black churches...
As far as my knowledge extends...
Originally, during the slave days, the blacks attended church with their masters... but sat in separated sections.  I believe the blacks were made to sit in balconies.
When the blacks became free they established their own churches and I believe it has remained this way in great part because the blacks(African Americans) have their own style of worship which does not necessarily appeal to the whites... and vice versa.  Each has their own way and each chooses what suits them best.  The black churches are much more, shall we say vigorous, or animated, in their services.   But I know of a great many integrated churches where people of all colors attend.  It is a matter of preference in the U.S.   People go where they are most comfortable... where they feel they best fit in, or get the most out of their worship service.

Can anyone that wants to, attend a Mosque if they want to?

Heart


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 10:13am
Caringheart,
I think you are mixed up and I can help, God willing.
First, God loves his creation, all. It is for that purpose that He showers His Mercy on all, those who deny Him, those who obey Him, and those who are unaware of Him. I am sure religious teachings tell us that. Our God given brain with simple use can figure that out as well.
Now, the second part comes with God giving us the free will and telling us what is right and what is wrong, and to do right and stay away from wrong. God also told us that if we willfully decide to do wrong, we will have its consequence, a punishment. And if we do right as God tell us, thus obey God, we will be rewarded afterward.
Quite simple, so far, I hope.
The above message was universal and preached by All of God's prophets. That is what I have been saying.
You are saying that Jesus, somehow preaches love for all, that need explanation. Are you saying that Jesus' love thingy means that even if you accept or reject God, obey or disobey God, there is no punishment or reward? or with this love, there is no punishment for anyone?
Please clarify your understanding and belief on this, so we can proceed and conclude on this issue.

Caringheart, In USA before the end of segregation in most of the Southern states blacks could not attend anything that was for whites, that included churches, schools, theaters, ride bus or train cars and so on.
To this day there are race oriented churches that only cater on color lines. I know that now there are churches that have mixed color people, but still there are churches that are color oriented.

Attending Mosque:
Any Muslim can attend mosque as a worshiper, any non-Muslim as a visitor, even though in any mosque no one will check if you are a worshiper or visitor at the door.
We get visitors at our mosques here in South Texas often. And since, mosques generally don't have membership people freely worship at different mosques. I myself have prayed at all four mosques in our town. And I have lived in several states and saw similar practices. One more thing, we get Shias ofen attend our mosques too and we worship side by side.
Peace,
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 September 2014 at 10:52am

the words of Yshwe;

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

This reminded me today, of a verse of the qur'an that I remember reading.  Anyone recognize it?

Muhammad spoke of it being a good thing to move to another land when one was not welcomed in their current place, and that allah has his reward for this?



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 13 September 2014 at 10:31am
hI Caringheart,

It is comparative... what Muhammad taught vs. what Jesus taught.
Muhammad seems to have been confused. Is God a God of confusion? [end edit]

You see when you say the teaching of Jesus what do you mean,where is it where Jesus speaks unequivocally??? you can quote Paul the liar as much as you want we cannot believe the Bible as the true word of God and we have posted several posts on this.You have no evidence.
     


Thank you iec


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 October 2014 at 2:26pm
The Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله was asked: O Messenger of Allah, when will the Qa’im appear from your offspring? So he said: Its [time is] like the proverb of the Hour, about which is said, “He alone will manifest it at its proper time. It is heavy in the heavens and the Earth. It shall not come upon you except unexpectedly.” (7:187)

It seems here that Muhammad is directly quoting Biblical scripture.

Luke 21 - the Word of Yshwe
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

37 And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.


'No one knows the hour but the Creator... and that day may may come as a 'thief in the night''

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (Matthew 24)


32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. (Mark 13)
- all the words of Yshwe



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 October 2014 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


The Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله was asked: O Messenger of Allah, when will the Qa’im appear from your offspring? So he said: Its [time is] like the proverb of the Hour, about which is said, “He alone will manifest it at its proper time. It is heavy in the heavens and the Earth. It shall not come upon you except unexpectedly.” (7:187)It seems here that Muhammad is directly quoting Biblical scripture.




Poor Caringheart. You still don't get it. This is proof positive that your heart and head is covered by a veil of misunderstanding.

ALL THE PROPHETS AND MESSENGERS CAME WITH THE SAME MESSAGE.

When will you understand? The MESSAGE is from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala the ONLY ONE GOD.

-------------
La Ilaha IllAllah


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 October 2014 at 8:56pm

I found this very interesting/enlightening

Honor

Arab storytellers tell the story of a father who is working in the hot sun with two of his sons. When he needed a drink of water, he asked the older of the boys to get him some. 'No, I will not,' the elder son replied.

The father then asked his younger son who said 'Yes, certainly father.' but he did not get the water.

At this point the storyteller always asks his audience, "Which is the better son?"

To give the wrong answer would be shaming but the storyteller knows that his listeners will give the correct answer. The younger son is the better of the two because he had saved his father's face by not defying him.


In the west we would point out that both boys were wrong.

This seems irrelevant to the Arab who does not think in terms of right and wrong, but in terms of shame and honor. To say no to your father's face would be to dishonor him. To agree with him, while in front of him, is to honor him.

When Jesus told a similar story in Matthew 21:28-32, he added that the first son, who refused, later went and did what the father asked. In this way, he restored honor by obeying his father. Jesus used this illustration to show that repentance covers shame, a concept that has been adopted by western Christianity.

I add here the passage... the teaching of Yshwe;

28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Which of them did the will of his father?

In my own words I add... who truly honors the father?


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 December 2014 at 11:09am
6:111 And though We should send down the angels unto them, and the dead should speak unto them, and We should gather against them all things in array, they would not believe unless Allah so willed. Howbeit, most of them are ignorant.


from the book of Luke, the record of the Word of Yshwe, chapter 16;
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.




-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 November 2015 at 7:13am
Scripture teaches, “From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands” (Acts 17:26).

There is a corresponding verse from the qur'an similar to this.

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 06 December 2015 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Abu Loren



They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a
staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night
season, falling prostrate (before Him).
They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and
forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of
the righteous.      
And whatever good they do, they will not be denied the meed thereof. Allah is Aware of those who ward off (evil).
     
This is talking about the Christians and Jews who converted to Islam. See the following tasfir.
Yet they, the People of the Scripture, are not all alike, equal; some of the People of the Scripture are a community upright, with integrity, adhering to the truth, such as ‘Abd Allāh b. Salām, may God be pleased with him and his companions, who recite God’s verses in the watches of the night, that is, during its hours, prostrating themselves, performing prayer (wa-hum yasjudūn, ‘prostrating themselves’, is a circumstantial qualifier).

Dear Bro Abu Loren: I am really sorry to say that I am not convinced with your evidence of Tafseer that these verses are talking about those 'People of the Book' who had converted to Islam. Simply because after conversion they did not remain Christians or Jews. They all became Muslims and one can't expect Quran would address them yet as the 'People of the Book'. Secondly, there is nothing in your Tafseer which says anything about this other than very oblique reference to one unknown person Abd Allāh b. Salām. One must not confuse with the name, as such names were very common among the Arabic People of the Book. On the more, kindly look at the following 6 translations of Quran, which clearly talks in the present tense of grammar:-

1. Sahih International: They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer].

2. Pickthall: They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate (before Him).

3. Yusuf Ali: Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.

4. Shakir: They are not all alike; of the followers of the Book there is an upright party; they recite Allah's communications in the nighttime and they adore (Him).

5. Muhammad Sarwar: The People of the Book are not all the same. Some of them are straightforward. They recite the words of God in prostration at night.

6. Mohsin Khan: Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of Allah during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer.

So essentially these verses are making a clear exception within the 'People of the Book' who are on the right path. Look at the very next verse which says
"Yusuf Ali: They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous." These verses clearly teach plurality and tolerance, at least within the 'People of the Book'.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 06 December 2015 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


     
Dear Bro Abu Loren: I am really sorry to say that I am not convinced with your evidence of Tafseer that these verses are talking about those 'People of the Book' who had converted to Islam. Simply because after conversion they did not remain Christians or Jews. They all became Muslims and one can't expect Quran would address them yet as the 'People of the Book'.



The reason I think Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala mentions the new Muslims as the people of the book is to differentiate them.

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia



Secondly, there is nothing in your Tafseer which says anything about this other than very oblique reference to one unknown person Abd Allāh b. Salām. One must not confuse with the name, as such names were very common among the Arabic People of the Book. On the more, kindly look at the following 6 translations of Quran, which clearly talks in the present tense of grammar:-



Abd Allah bin Salem is just an example as a believer from the people of the book.

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


So essentially these verses are making a clear exception within the 'People of the Book' who are on the right path. Look at the very next verse which says
"Yusuf Ali: They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous." These verses clearly teach plurality and tolerance, at least within the 'People of the Book'.


One can only be on the right path if they become a Muslim because Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it teach plurality and tolerance of other religions. Those people of the book who do not accept the teachings of the Qur'an nor the prophethood of Mohammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) are doomed.

It seems that your understanding of the Qur'an and IslaM is at fault. (No offence).

-------------
La Ilaha IllAllah


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 07 December 2015 at 1:21am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


     
Dear Bro Abu Loren: I am really sorry to say that I am not convinced with your evidence of Tafseer that these verses are talking about those 'People of the Book' who had converted to Islam. Simply because after conversion they did not remain Christians or Jews. They all became Muslims and one can't expect Quran would address them yet as the 'People of the Book'.

The reason I think Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala mentions the new Muslims as the people of the book is to differentiate them.

Can you explain why you think Quran gives only one and same title (People of the Book) for the two different group of people? 1) Jews/Christians + others not converted to Islam. 2) Jews/Christians who became Muslims.
Very strange theory. Please do support your theory by providing authentic references. I shall appreciate it.
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Abd Allah bin Salem is just an example as a believer from the people of the book.
That is the point. There are believers of God and only one God, from among the people of the book, yet they might not have embraced shahda. So, how do you now see these verses? Group 1 or 2? IMHO, these verses are specifically addressing believers in Group 1.
Originally posted by Abu Loren


One can only be on the right path if they become a Muslim because Islam is the only religion acceptable to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it teach plurality and tolerance of other religions. Those people of the book who do not accept the teachings of the Qur'an nor the prophethood of Mohammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) are doomed.
It seems that your understanding of the Qur'an and IslaM is at fault. (No offence).
You are too quick to Judge my brother! May peace be upon you. Anyhow, I hope now you would differentiate between any people of the book and the Believers among the people of the book. Can you?


Posted By: ForHumanity
Date Posted: 07 December 2015 at 9:00am
As-salamu alaykum, May Peace Be Upon You,

(N.B. I know you said a discussion between 2-3 people, sorry if I break that rule)

I am new here, so sorry, but could you please clarify what you are asking: Do you want to know why the sayings of the Prophet are taken into consideration? Or are you saying that Christianity is a religion of Peace and that Islam is a religion of hatred?

Please confirm this for me. Smile


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 07 December 2015 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


     
Dear Bro Abu Loren: I am really sorry to say that I am not convinced with your evidence of Tafseer that these verses are talking about those 'People of the Book' who had converted to Islam. Simply because after conversion they did not remain Christians or Jews. They all became Muslims and one can't expect Quran would address them yet as the 'People of the Book'.


In the Qur'an the people of the book are only Jews and the Christians because they followed the Bible. But those people who have converted to Islam are referred to as people of the book as well to differentiate them.



-------------
La Ilaha IllAllah


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 07 December 2015 at 8:22pm
The following verse from Deuteronomy, chapter 38

30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?

would seem to explain the hadith, the statement of Muhammad,
about how 'the very stones will say, here there is a Jew behind me, kill him' ...

a misconception of the verse from Deuteronomy.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 08 December 2015 at 2:29am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


     
Dear Bro Abu Loren: I am really sorry to say that I am not convinced with your evidence of Tafseer that these verses are talking about those 'People of the Book' who had converted to Islam. Simply because after conversion they did not remain Christians or Jews. They all became Muslims and one can't expect Quran would address them yet as the 'People of the Book'.


In the Qur'an the people of the book are only Jews and the Christians because they followed the Bible. But those people who have converted to Islam are referred to as people of the book as well to differentiate them.

Those who have converted to Islam, are called Muslims; no discrimination or distinction is required within Muslims as they become part of one Uma. Thus, when Quran specifically admonishes the 'People of the Book' for example, for killing their past Prophets or not adhering to the Word of God etc., do you think that those who had become Muslims among them, deserve such a treatment? Thus, my brother it is time to make correction in your understanding of Quran, otherwise, you need to provide a solid evidence to support your theory? May Allah guide us to the right path. Ameen!


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 08 December 2015 at 7:42am
Ameen!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 December 2015 at 12:19pm
Where Muhammad (or the qur'an, or islam) teaches that it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery,
Yshwe (known as Jesus) teaches exactly the opposite.

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

(as recorded in the book of John, chapter 8)

How can a muslim claim to respect Yshwe when their leader, Muhammad, teaches the opposite of what Yshwe came to teach?



-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 09 December 2015 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Where Muhammad (or the qur'an, or islam) teaches that it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery,Yshwe (known as Jesus) teaches exactly the opposite.

IMHO, there are no verses in Quran that teaches it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery! You should provide your evidence from Quran, if you think otherwise! Hopefully, your distorted ideas about Islam may get corrected. Best regards.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 December 2015 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Originally posted by Caringheart


Where Muhammad (or the qur'an, or islam) teaches that it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery,Yshwe (known as Jesus) teaches exactly the opposite.

IMHO, there are no verses in Quran that teaches it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery! You should provide your evidence from Quran, if you think otherwise! Hopefully, your distorted ideas about Islam may get corrected. Best regards.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,
The qur'an says:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/24/index.htm#2 - 24:2 "The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment."
so, 100 lashes, which is not the same as stoning.
The hadith do speak of stoning for adultery.

and there is this:

According to Umar (Muhammad's companion and Islam's second caliph) "[Allah] sent down the Book (Quran) upon him (Muhamad), and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him."  Umar went on to insist that "Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy, or a confession." ( http:// - Muslim 17:4194 )

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him." - Sahih al-Bukhari, 8:82:816, Sahih Muslim, 17:4194

According to a strong tradition (found in Sunan ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, Hadith no. 1934), Aisha also recalled the verse that prescribed the death penalty, rajm, for adulterers.  It was written on a palm leaf that was in her home following Muhammad's death, that apparently, according to Aisha, got eaten by a goat.

Apparently this verse did not make it into the final collection of the qur'an that was put together, though both Aisha and Umar were aware of its existence, and aware of the fact that Muhammad put it into practice himself.


No matter how you look at it... qur'an, hadith of Muhammad, or the recordings of Muhammad's enacted punishments...
  it is not the same as Yshwe taught.

asalaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 12 December 2015 at 1:17am
Originally posted by Caringheart




Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Originally posted by Caringheart


Where Muhammad (or the qur'an, or islam) teaches that it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery,Yshwe (known as Jesus) teaches exactly the opposite.

IMHO, there are no verses in Quran that teaches it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery! You should provide your evidence from Quran, if you think otherwise! Hopefully, your distorted ideas about Islam may get corrected. Best regards.
Greetings AhmadJoyia,The qur'an says:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/24/index.htm#2 - 24:2 "The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye
each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you
from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of
believers witness their punishment."

so, 100 lashes, which is not the same as stoning.The hadith do speak of stoning for adultery.and there is this..........
Thanks for bringing both Quran and Hadith on the table, in this issue. Here we know that there can't be two punishments for the same crime. So, in essence, since Quran is very explicit in this issue, therefore Ahadith status is not acceptable about this crime. Secondly, it is very likely that the incidences of punishment of stoning that is being quoted in the Ahadith must have taken place prior to the revelations of clear verses in Quran. Therefore, IMHO, there is no stoning to death punishment in Islam. Those who still profess it, their logic to implement is not better than delusional.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 12 December 2015 at 1:41am
Originally posted by Caringheart



Where Muhammad (or the qur'an, or islam) teaches that it is ok to stone to death a woman for adultery,Yshwe (known as Jesus) teaches exactly the opposite.
<span id="en-KJV-26383" ="text="" john-8-1"=""><span ="chapternum"="">8 </span>Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26384" ="text="" john-8-2"=""><sup ="versenum"="">2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26385" ="text="" john-8-3"=""><sup ="versenum"="">3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26386" ="text="" john-8-4"=""><sup ="versenum"="">4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26387" ="text="" john-8-5"=""><sup ="versenum"="">5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26388" ="text="" john-8-6"=""><sup ="versenum"="">6 This
they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus
stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he
heard them not.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26389" ="text="" john-8-7"=""><sup ="versenum"="">7 So
when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto
them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at
her.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26390" ="text="" john-8-8"=""><sup ="versenum"="">8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26391" ="text="" john-8-9"=""><sup ="versenum"="">9 And
they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out
one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was
left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26392" ="text="" john-8-10"=""><sup ="versenum"="">10 When
Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto
her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26393" ="text="" john-8-11"=""><sup ="versenum"="">11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26393" ="text="" john-8-11"="">(as recorded in the book of John, chapter 8)</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26393" ="text="" john-8-11"="">How can a muslim claim to respect Yshwe when their leader, Muhammad, teaches the opposite of what Yshwe came to teach?</span>



Though I am not very fond of discussing things out of anonymous books, however, for this particular passage only, I can put my two coins into it:
1. First of all, I don't know who is Yshwe? Is he Jesus PBUH or someone else or same personality but with some other status? This is because I did not find it in English translated Bible that I have.
2. With this passage, what should I conclude about the Adultery in Christianity? Is it no more sinful? But if it is sinful, then what is its punishment? Is it no more stoning to death? Or it is totally abolished?
Your allusion that it is no more sinful, is not supported by your own text that you have quoted. Here are my arguments with the evidence from your own bible.
(a) Jesus said he came not to change the law but to fulfill it. Hence, total abolition of any law, and not just this one, is contrary to his own statement.
(b) In this passage, all we know is that Jesus took an exception in forgiving this lady, but did remind her not to do the adultery again by saying go, and sin no more This is only possible if Jesus still considered adultery to be sinful.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 December 2015 at 10:31am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


Though I am not very fond of discussing things out of anonymous books, however, for this particular passage only, I can put my two coins into it:
1. First of all, I don't know who is Yshwe? Is he Jesus PBUH or someone else or same personality but with some other status? This is because I did not find it in English translated Bible that I have.
2. With this passage, what should I conclude about the Adultery in Christianity? Is it no more sinful? But if it is sinful, then what is its punishment? Is it no more stoning to death? Or it is totally abolished?
Your allusion that it is no more sinful, is not supported by your own text that you have quoted. Here are my arguments with the evidence from your own bible.
(a) Jesus said he came not to change the law but to fulfill it. Hence, total abolition of any law, and not just this one, is contrary to his own statement.
(b) In this passage, all we know is that Jesus took an exception in forgiving this lady, but did remind her not to do the adultery again by saying go, and sin no more This is only possible if Jesus still considered adultery to be sinful.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Yes, I have come to the habit of rendering the name of the Messiah as it would have been rendered in His own time, and in His own language... Yshwe... to the best of my understanding.

It seems to me that Yshwe(known as Jesus) was teaching that no human being has the right to punish another human being for their personal sins, since we are all sinful beings.
Yshwe made a point of teaching that we are all sinful, as His Disciple John tells us;
 'if any claims not to have sin, he is a liar, and deceives himself'


Here is what I consider a good exposition on the subject:
 In saying, “Go and sin no more,” Jesus was not speaking of sinless perfection. He was warning against a return to sinful lifestyle choices. His words both extended mercy and demanded holiness. Jesus was always the perfect balance of “grace and truth” (John 1:14). With forgiveness comes the expectation that we will not continue in the same path of rebelliousness. Those who know God’s love will naturally want to obey Him (John 14:15).

 When we turn to Christ and receive His forgiveness, we experience a heart change (Luke 9:23; Acts 1:8).
 Rather than continue in the self-centered path that led us astray from Him to begin with, the forgiven can walk in God’s path (Luke 14:27).

Yshwe fulfills the law in that, 'He' himself, is the forgiveness for sins...

what was He always telling people when He healed them?  He said to them, 'your sins are forgiven'.... this was to make the point... God has the power to forgive sins, and by turning to God and from sinful ways we are healed

instead of human punishment, we are afforded Divine forgiveness, healing from our wicked ways.

It is this mercy and grace... this depth of forgiveness... one man laying down His life for us... that changes us at the very depth of our being and leads us from sinfulness when we acknowledge the sacrifice that was made for our salvation. 
We are led to Love(which is God)
... for, 'we love because He first loved us', and 'there is no greater love than this, than a man lay down his life for another'.  (1 John 4, John 15)

This is the 'new thing' God promised in Isaiah 43;
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?

asalaam and blessings,
Caringheart




-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 14 December 2015 at 10:39pm
Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Though I am not very fond of discussing things out of anonymous books, however, for this particular passage only, I can put my two coins into it:
1. First of all, I don't know who is Yshwe? Is he Jesus PBUH or someone else or same personality but with some other status? This is because I did not find it in English translated Bible that I have.
2. With this passage, what should I conclude about the Adultery in Christianity? Is it no more sinful? But if it is sinful, then what is its punishment? Is it no more stoning to death? Or it is totally abolished?
Your allusion that it is no more sinful, is not supported by your own text that you have quoted. Here are my arguments with the evidence from your own bible.
(a) Jesus said he came not to change the law but to fulfill it. Hence, total abolition of any law, and not just this one, is contrary to his own statement.
(b) In this passage, all we know is that Jesus took an exception in forgiving this lady, but did remind her not to do the adultery again by saying go, and sin no more This is only possible if Jesus still considered adultery to be sinful.
Greetings AhmadJoyia,Yes, I have come to the habit of rendering the name of the Messiah as it would have been rendered in His own time, and in His own language... Yshwe... to the best of my understanding.It seems to me that Yshwe(known as Jesus) was teaching that no human being has the right to punish another human being for their personal sins, since we are all sinful beings.Yshwe made a point of teaching that we are all sinful, as His Disciple John tells us; 'if any claims not to have sin, he is a liar, and deceives himself'Here is what I consider a good exposition on the subject:
 In saying, “Go and sin no more,” Jesus was not speaking of sinless perfection. He was warning against a return to sinful lifestyle choices. His words both extended mercy and demanded holiness. Jesus was always the perfect balance of “grace and truth” (John 1:14). With forgiveness comes the expectation that we will not continue in the same path of rebelliousness. Those who know God’s love will naturally want to obey Him (John 14:15). When we turn to Christ and receive His forgiveness, we experience a heart change (Luke 9:23; Acts 1:8).  Rather than continue in the self-centered path that led us astray from Him to begin with, the forgiven can walk in God’s path (Luke 14:27).
Yshwe fulfills the law in that, 'He' himself, is the forgiveness for sins...what was He always telling people when He healed them?  He said to them, 'your sins are forgiven'.... this was to make the point... God has the power to forgive sins, and by turning to God and from sinful ways we are healedinstead of human punishment, we are afforded Divine forgiveness, healing from our wicked ways.It is this mercy and grace... this depth of forgiveness... one man laying down His life for us... that changes us at the very depth of our being and leads us from sinfulness when we acknowledge the sacrifice that was made for our salvation.  We are led to Love(which is God)... for, 'we love because He first loved us', and 'there is no greater love than this, than a man lay down his life for another'.  (1 John 4, John 15)This is the 'new thing' God promised in Isaiah 43;19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? asalaam and blessings,Caringheart

Ok, so for Q1, you think this name is the original name given to Jesus by his mother? Is that what you mean or what? What was the original language of Jesus?
For Q2, I guess you are saying that personal sins are no more punishable in Christianity. Am I correct? So don't you think this is clearly a changed Law and therefore a negation of Jesus's own fulfillment of the law? I must remind that forgiveness of a Sin, doesn't make the action non-sinful. Secondly, if so taken, you think all forms of adultery are personal sins? If so, What about the cheating of a spouse in Adultery etc? Do you think, it still remains a personal sin?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 16 December 2015 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


Ok, so for Q1, you think this name is the original name given to Jesus by his mother? Is that what you mean or what? What was the original language of Jesus?
For Q2, I guess you are saying that personal sins are no more punishable in Christianity. Am I correct? So don't you think this is clearly a changed Law and therefore a negation of Jesus's own fulfillment of the law? I must remind that forgiveness of a Sin, doesn't make the action non-sinful. Secondly, if so taken, you think all forms of adultery are personal sins? If so, What about the cheating of a spouse in Adultery etc? Do you think, it still remains a personal sin?

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

This turned into quite a long exposition.  Smile

Question 1:
Yes, I came to this conclusion about a year ago in my studies.  I do not remember all the details of how I reached this conclusion. I know that part of it was when I purchased the Restoration Study Bible, which has both Hebrew and Greek concordances to refer to.
To the best of my recollection I would say that the language of Yshwe(known by the Greeks as Jesus) was Aramaic.

Question 2:
Personal sins are still punished, but the message of Christ is that we only punish ourselves when we disobey God and sin.  Without repentance we suffer the consequences of our sins.  God's commands are for our good, for our protection.  It is what gives us blessings in life... to follow the commands of God.
Yshwe leads us to repentance... to a changed way of life... to re-birth, through Love.
Yshwe does not change the laws of God, but Yshwe is the 'new thing' God promised.
The laws of the old testament are the laws of Moses given to the people of that time.  Those laws were incapable of bringing about a change in the behavior of God's people.  The purpose of the law was merely to make people aware of sin... those things which would be harmful to them.
'it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.'

'Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.'
Yshwe admonished the Pharisees, the Jewish leaders, for 'laying heavy weights about the necks of the people [with laws of men] but providing no way for them to escape from their sins'.  In other words they preached only punishment, but not redemption, not recourse.  The law offered nothing in the way of hope and redemption.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
The Apostle Paul puts it thus...
'for while we had the law, I yet remained in sin'
'the law had no power to make a change in me'

Yshwe is the fulfillment of the law... God's law... in that He leads away from sin by paying the penalty for our sins.
He described it thus...
'for no greater Love is there than that a man lay down his life for another'
He taught in a parable... recorded in the book of Matthew, chapter 18;
that there was a servant who owed a debt to his master, and the master took pity on him and forgave his debt.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
If the Lord sends someone to pay our debt, would we refuse?
Would we 'trample under foot the blood of one who sacrificed his life for us'?
Can not the Lord send who He wishes to pay our debts, to forgive our sins, when we but turn to Him in worship?
'if my people who are called by my name will turn from their wicked ways and call out to me, I will hear from heaven and will heal their land'

For Scripture says: 'Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart.'
The Pharisees and the people were consumed with judging by the outward appearance of things.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Jesus reprimands against judging by appearance.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

The parable of Yshwe teaches as recorded in the book of Luke, chapter 18:
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

the prophesy of Jeremiah, chapter 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
(This is a reference to the Holy Spirit which the followers of Yshwe received on Pentacost Sunday, and which the followers of Christ(Messiah) continue to receive to this day)
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
 Psalm 103
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Yshwe was, and is, the fulfillment of these prophesies.

asalaam and blessings,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 18 December 2015 at 8:07pm
Greetings to you as well Bro Caringheart! Since the Christmas is approaching, I must specifically send my heartiest greetings to you and your loved ones.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Ok, so for Q1, you think this name is the original name given to Jesus by his mother? Is that what you mean or what? What was the original language of Jesus?
For Q2, I guess you are saying that personal sins are no more punishable in Christianity. Am I correct? So don't you think this is clearly a changed Law and therefore a negation of Jesus's own fulfillment of the law? I must remind that forgiveness of a Sin, doesn't make the action non-sinful. Secondly, if so taken, you think all forms of adultery are personal sins? If so, What about the cheating of a spouse in Adultery etc? Do you think, it still remains a personal sin?
Greetings AhmadJoyia,This turned into quite a long exposition.  [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Question 1:Yes, I came to this conclusion about a year ago in my studies.  I do not remember all the details of how I reached this conclusion. I know that part of it was when I purchased the Restoration Study Bible, which has both Hebrew and Greek concordances to refer to. To the best of my recollection I would say that the language of Yshwe(known by the Greeks as Jesus) was Aramaic.

So, you are saying that Yshwe is an Aramaic name? Can you refer me to this source since in my knowledge, this language is long extinct.
Originally posted by Caringheart


Question 2:Personal sins are still punished, but the message of Christ is that we only punish ourselves when we disobey God and sin....
But in your example of adultery, the sin of cheating is against another human being. Do you think this formula of 'self punishment' would serve the Justice? Isn't it illogical or am I missing something here?

 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 23 December 2015 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Greetings to you as well Bro Caringheart! Since the Christmas is approaching, I must specifically send my heartiest greetings to you and your loved ones.

Thank you so much!

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


So, you are saying that Yshwe is an Aramaic name? Can you refer me to this source since in my knowledge, this language is long extinct.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,
It was only after consulting several sources that I came to my conclusion that Yshwe is the form of the name that would have been used in His own time.  Yes, I do believe it was aramaic, but I can't say definitively without reviewing my earlier studies which I just don't have time to do.  Please forgive.

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

But in your example of adultery, the sin of cheating is against another human being. Do you think this formula of 'self punishment' would serve the Justice? Isn't it illogical or am I missing something here?

I needed time to think about this.
I consider the sin of adultery to be a personal sin... a thing that hurts ourselves... and that is why God calls it a sin....
but as I reflected, I reflect that you are correct  (ha! that all rhymed Smile),
adultery does also hurt the other person...
but,
is there any human punishment that can atone for such hurt?

I believe Yshwe was teaching us that the way to salvation is through mercy and forgiveness.

 The only thing that takes away the pain of sin, is repentance, and forgiveness, and beginning anew... as the Christians would put it... being born again.

 Yshwe came to teach us that as human beings we are all weak and sinful, and if our Father in heaven can forgive, then who are we not to?

He came to teach us that it is more important to show mercy on the weaknesses and failings of others, giving them the chance for repentance and redemption.  Does it not have greater impact on a person when they are forgiven,
when they know that they do not deserve that forgiveness? 
Is there a better way to change a heart?

We have the two parables (the two teachings of Yshwe)
1.  the woman whom He meets at the well, and to whom He reveals that her sins are not hidden but also does not punish her.  It is enough that her conscience has been stirred to recognize that her shame is not hidden and that she will one day reap the consequence if she continues in her sins.  She is only hurting herself and her eternal salvation.  People are more motivated when they see how they hurt themselves.

2.  the woman taken in adultery and Yshwe tells the townspeople... 'if ye have no sin then go ahead and cast the first stone'.  They all walk away, and Yshwe says to the woman;
Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Would someone given such a gracious second chance turn back to their sin, or more likely try to turn away from it?  To be saved from death has a way of making a great impact on people.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


We love, because He first loved us.

Yshwe shows us the way to Love...

I am, the Way, the Truth, and the Life

asalaam and blessings to you,
Caringheart


 

-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 December 2015 at 9:37pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


So, you are saying that Yshwe is an Aramaic name? Can you refer me to this source since in my knowledge, this language is long extinct.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,
Interestingly today, during the Christmas mass held at the Vatican, they spoke a prayer in aramaic.   Thought I'd share.  Smile


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 02 January 2016 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings AhmadJoyia,It was only after consulting several sources that I came to my conclusion that Yshwe is the form of the name that would have been used in His own time. Yes, I do believe it was aramaic, but I can't say definitively without reviewing my earlier studies which I just don't have time to do. Please forgive.

If you got his name from ‘somewhere’, should you not expect the original word of God to be in Aramaic, as well? Don’t you think, in its absence, all we read is translated interpretation of anonymous writers? Do you still think it is safe enough to trust in its each ‘word’ of it, as the Church wants you to believe about it?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

But in your example of adultery, the sin of cheating is against another human being. Do you think this formula of 'self punishment' would serve the Justice? Isn't it illogical or am I missing something here?

I needed time to think about this.I consider the sin of adultery to be a personal sin... a thing that hurts ourselves... and that is why God calls it a sin....but as I reflected, I reflect that you are correct (ha! that all rhymed Smileadultery does also hurt the other person...
but, is there any human punishment that can atone for such hurt?

Bro no offense intended, how the justice be carried out if the oppressor gets away by his last moment repentance with no time to feel from remorse? Secondly, I wonder, how would the Truly Christian Government would rule without Jail times? Are you suggesting, spending tax payers money be spent to open up more and more Churches in a hope that one day such criminals might end up repenting for their sins? Hmm!! Very surprising proposition, if I am correct.
   
Originally posted by Caringheart


I believe Yshwe was teaching us that the way to salvation is through mercy and forgiveness. The only thing that takes away the pain of sin, is repentance, and forgiveness, and beginning anew... as the Christians would put it... being born again. Yshwe came to teach us that as human beings we are all weak and sinful,…

Ok you may assume all humans to be divinely ‘weak’ (in the sense of ability to sin, same as you said sin nature), but not ‘sinful’, until or unless you bring the burden of ‘original sin’ over their shoulders. If you do, then comparatively, why should anyone would become Christian and be indebted of this sin, which he had never committed?
Originally posted by Caringheart


… and if our Father in heaven can forgive, then who are we not to?

But the offense is not against the God (if you think God has not made it illegal), but against another human being. Where is the Justice? So, if Christianity doesn’t guarantee Justice to the injured person, why anyone should join such a religion? When all the rapists/adulterers end up in the heaven just on the basis of last minute repentance, where is the Justice to the effected person?

Originally posted by Caringheart


He came to teach us that it is more important to show mercy on the weaknesses and failings of others, giving them the chance for repentance and redemption. Does it not have greater impact on a person when they are forgiven, when they know that they do not deserve that forgiveness? Is there a better way to change a heart? We have the two parables (the two teachings of Yshwe) 1. the woman whom He meets at the well, and to whom He reveals that her sins are not hidden but also does not punish her. It is enough that her conscience has been stirred to recognize that her shame is not hidden and that she will one day reap the consequence if she continues in her sins. She is only hurting herself and her eternal salvation. People are more motivated when they see how they hurt themselves. 2. the woman taken in adultery and Yshwe tells the townspeople... 'if ye have no sin then go ahead and cast the first stone'. They all walk away, and Yshwe says to the woman;
<span id="en-KJV-26392" ="text="" john-8-10"="">Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26393" ="text="" john-8-11"=""><sup ="versenum"="">11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.</span>

Would someone given such a gracious second chance turn back to their sin, or more likely try to turn away from it? To be saved from death has a way of making a great impact on people.

<span id="en-KJV-30532" ="text="" 2pet-3-9"=""><sup ="versenum"="">9 The
Lord is
not slack concerning his promise, </span><span id="en-KJV-30532" ="text="" 2pet-3-9"="">but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-30532" ="text="" 2pet-3-9"=""></span>

<span id="en-KJV-30532" ="text="" 2pet-3-9"="">We love, because He first loved us.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-30532" ="text="" 2pet-3-9"="">Yshwe shows us the way to Love...</span>

<span id="en-KJV-30532" ="text="" 2pet-3-9"="">I am, the Way, the Truth, and the Life</span>

asalaam and blessings to you, Caringheart


I am not sure, if this has been the official policy of the Christian Kings of the past to rule the Christian folks without any justice system of punishing the criminals? Were there no jail times or no capital punishment? If we look back into Christianity’s royal history, we find exactly opposite of what you have described. Obviously we know, no community of people can work without some form of Justice system. This is an essential requirement of every society, even the biggest criminal societies must have some form of such a system. I guess one such example is if we just look at the early English settlements (of criminals) in America, even those thugs did establish their own Justice system for their survival as a community.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 January 2016 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

[/quote]Gr
Greetings AhmadJoyia,

I fail to see the concern. Whether the scriptures were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, English, or any language... they say the same.  I merely try to use the name for my Savior that the Apostle's might have used for Him, and that name would seem to be written as Yshwe.
Spoken in Aramaic, recorded in Hebrew or Greek... doesn't really matter.

I'm sorry that you so miss the message of Christ.
  • Sin hurts the sinner
  • God wants to protect us from sin so He gives us the guides
  • Only God can exact judgement - no human punishment can remove the wounds, the damages, of sin
  • Justice belongs to God... no human can exact justice
  • all are born with a tendency to sin and must be taught to fight this sin nature
  • Love for God, the Love gained through the appreciation(the acceptance) of the sacrifice made for us, because God so loves us, leads us away from sin

You hit the nail on the head... no one should 'join religion'
they should seek relationship with God.  Smile


What makes you think that,
'the rapists/adulterers end up in the heaven just on the basis of last minute repentance'
Yshwe said, 'in My Father's house are many mansions'
'the humble will be exalted and the guilty will be brought low'

'all will be brought before the judgement seat'

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
'many will say Lord, Lord, but will be turned away'


You say;
" where is the Justice to the effected person? "
In heaven, all will be justice... all past hurts... earthly, fleshly, human, hurts... will be forgotten... We will have left the body and the human memory behind.  All will be only good conscience in heaven.
... no remembrance of past evil


Men have always carried out human justices in order to be a protection to the general public... imprisonment, death penalty...
but man's laws should be as a protection from others,
but men are not in charge of protecting from one's own self.  Bad choices often lead to bad results.  It is up to each of us to guard against making bad choices, and this is the importance of the guidance of God.
The sin of adultery is in the hands of the parties involved.  To protect oneself from further injury one needs to either choose to forgive(possibly exposing to further injury, but a risk they must have the freedom to take or reject), or choose to walk away from the injuring party... but nothing outside persons can do will erase the sin, or the injury from sin.
Men do try to make laws to discourage such behavior, and God Himself has certainly tried to discourage, and disapproves, such behavior.
Do either mens laws, or God's, have much effect on a person determined to indulge the sinful nature?

The penalty for sinful actions, comes in the form of the suffering one brings upon himself in the form of spiritual, emotional, mental, consequences... loss of important relationships, etc.
Repentance comes from suffering.
Salvation, and forgiveness, comes from repentance.

and 'God wants all to be brought to salvation'.  Smile
The Lord... my Lord... is 'not willing that 'a single soul should be lost'(the words of Yshwe recorded in Matthew 18 and John 6... I hope that you will read them. Smile)

asalaam and blessings,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 04 January 2016 at 12:09am
Originally posted by caringheart

The penalty for sinful actions, comes in the form of the suffering one brings upon himself ...
So, in essence, if I understood correctly, the process of entering into heaven, according to your version of Christianity, all starts from suffering one brings upon himself and offers nothing to support the suffering of the fellow human being as for him/her either to forgive or walk away. So, for any such justice, s/he should look for secular rules of the land.Hmm!! Is this not a drastic change in the outlook of a monotheistic religion with definite rules for such sinners, against the new version of religion where not only the 'mono' is changed to 'tri' and with it all other laws also got absolved? So, all the purpose for the Christians have about the OT is to only use it as an appendix for their NT and not really to implement its injunctions. In the absence of any man-made (secular) laws, do you really think, this view of Christianity can be called a safe system for any community, not only to survive but to thrive as well?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 January 2016 at 10:57am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Originally posted by caringheart

The penalty for sinful actions, comes in the form of the suffering one brings upon himself ...
So, in essence, if I understood correctly, the process of entering into heaven, according to your version of Christianity, all starts from suffering one brings upon himself and offers nothing to support the suffering of the fellow human being as for him/her either to forgive or walk away. So, for any such justice, s/he should look for secular rules of the land.Hmm!! Is this not a drastic change in the outlook of a monotheistic religion with definite rules for such sinners, against the new version of religion where not only the 'mono' is changed to 'tri' and with it all other laws also got absolved? So, all the purpose for the Christians have about the OT is to only use it as an appendix for their NT and not really to implement its injunctions. In the absence of any man-made (secular) laws, do you really think, this view of Christianity can be called a safe system for any community, not only to survive but to thrive as well?

Greetings AhamadJoyia,
Please forgive;
do you misunderstand, or do you deliberately twist what I share with you?

I share again;
"is there any human punishment that can atone for such hurt?"
"Only God can exact judgement - no human punishment can remove the wounds, the damages, of sin"
"Justice belongs to God... no human can exact justice"

'all will be brought before the judgement seat'

It is a change, in the sense that God's wrath had no power to change humans, so He decides instead to show His Love... coming to us in the form of flesh, as the Son.
Through the prophet Isaiah, God told us in the Torah(the old testament) that He would be doing a new thing, and He asked His people, would they perceive it.
Isaiah 43
18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?

The new testament of God is hidden in the old
the old testament of God is revealed in the new

All becomes clear with the life and death of Yshwe.
He is the One that brings 'rivers of water in the desert' ... i.e., life

21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
(these are the Christians)
He goes on to talk of how Jacob, Israel, has turned away.


As I have shared, Christianity allows for human laws.
Throughout both the old testament and the new testament we are told to obey those authorities which are over us here on earth,
and as Yshwe clearly reaffirms in His words,
'give unto Caesar what is Caesar's'

It is in entering heaven that we answer to a higher authority.
but yes, suffering brings repentance, and only repentance will bring us to God...
and my God has made clear that He wishes for no soul to be lost, but 'that all should come to repentance'.

When one of the disciples asked, 'how many times must I forgive?'

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

If a man is killed without being given the chance (even many chances) for repentance, this does not serve God... not my God.
My God says that He
'is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.'

If we enact the human judgement then we may be in danger of the judgement of God upon ourselves.
for as Yshwe said;

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

This is why He said, that 'he that is without sin may cast the first stone', when the adulteress was brought before Him.  (Do you not find it equally interesting that only the woman caught in adultery was brought for judgement?  It takes two.  These men were willing to condemn her, but it took a man to commit the sin with her.  How many had perhaps themselves committed the same sin?  What did Yshwe write in the sand?  Perhaps the names of the men that had been with this woman?)

None of us are without sin,
and none of us is fit to judge
that is the business of God.
So we should take care as to how we judge, and as to what punishment we see fit to give out, for we may be the one to come under the judgement of God.
That is the message.

asalaam and blessings,
Caringheart

Note: Can I share also...

and he who kills you will think he is doing God a service...

The following are the words of Yshwe recorded in the book of
John 16
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them.

It is not a service to the Creator when we kill His creation, this is doing a service to the one who wants to see the creation destroy itself.


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 05 January 2016 at 9:44am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Originally posted by caringheart

The penalty for sinful actions, comes in the form of the suffering one brings upon himself ...
So, in essence, if I understood correctly, the process of entering into heaven, according to your version of Christianity, all starts from suffering one brings upon himself and offers nothing to support the suffering of the fellow human being as for him/her either to forgive or walk away. So, for any such justice, s/he should look for secular rules of the land.Hmm!! Is this not a drastic change in the outlook of a monotheistic religion with definite rules for such sinners, against the new version of religion where not only the 'mono' is changed to 'tri' and with it all other laws also got absolved? So, all the purpose for the Christians have about the OT is to only use it as an appendix for their NT and not really to implement its injunctions. In the absence of any man-made (secular) laws, do you really think, this view of Christianity can be called a safe system for any community, not only to survive but to thrive as well?

Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings AhamadJoyia,Please forgive;do you misunderstand, or do you deliberately twist what I share with you?
Sorry if I misunderstood it. However, I expected point wise correction of my points, repeating your own text won’t increase my understanding. However, I shall retry to be as precise in my point wise response, as much possible.
Originally posted by Caringheart


I share again;"is there any human punishment that can atone for such hurt?
Yes, there is. Now since you didn’t provide any Biblical solution to this injury, don’t you believe in human need of Justice for being satisfied? If this need is not fulfilled through an organized way (civilized way of providing justice to the injured party through well defined laws) there is every likelihood that the injured person may take law in his/her own hand and may take over dose to avenge the injury? Thus creating an unending chaos in the society where the other party may start a similar process in the pretext of avenging the over dose. This is exactly what happened in the time of ‘Dark Ages’. Now
Originally posted by Caringheart


""Only God can exact judgement - no human punishment can remove the wounds, the damages, of sin""Justice belongs to God... no human can exact justice"'all will be brought before the judgement seat'It is a change, in the sense that God's wrath had no power to change humans, so He decides instead to show His Love... coming to us in the form of flesh, as the Son.
But the injury took place on earth and don’t you know that Justice delayed is Justice denied? Should the injured person wait for his/her death or pray for the death of his/her opponent to avenge the injury? Compare this with Islamic concept where God loves justice and wants men to also uphold the justice while deciding the matters on earth. Definitely God will Ultimately Judge, but has given respite to man till the Day of the Judgment.
Originally posted by Caringheart


Through the prophet Isaiah, God told us in the Torah(the old testament) that He would be doing a new thing, and He asked His people, would they perceive it.Isaiah 4318 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?
Given the +/- one century of authenticity, that too, through a Prophesy of a Prophet whose reign was about 6 to 7 century before the Jesus, with anonymous writing, and that too, not in its original language, is this the only evidence you have that you present to change everything in the Law? This is despite what you should be reading from the NT, where Jesus is quoted saying that not an iota would change but to fulfill the law. I am really surprised with your judgment.
Originally posted by Caringheart


The new testament of God is hidden in the oldthe old testament of God is revealed in the newAll becomes clear with the life and death of Yshwe.
‘Death of Yshwe’? You mean the ‘Death of God’? Please help me?? I am really confused than ever before? Similarly, what do you mean by ‘life of Yshwe’? In Islam, this notion of ‘life and death’ is only with the creatures and not for the Creator. For us God is ever present, always present.
Originally posted by Caringheart


He is the One that brings 'rivers of water in the desert' ... i.e., life21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.(these are the Christians)He goes on to talk of how Jacob, Israel, has turned away.As I have shared, Christianity allows for human laws.Throughout both the old testament and the new testament we are told to obey those authorities which are over us here on earth, and as Yshwe clearly reaffirms in His words,'give unto Caesar what is Caesar's'……….
You just can’t escape without answering my specific question that what happens if there is no ‘Caesar’? How would Christians run their affairs? In the absence of an appropriate answer, should this not bring into my comment that it appears that the Christianity is unable to provide a standalone, one complete composite system of life for humans on earth?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 January 2016 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Given the +/- one century of authenticity, that too, through a Prophesy of a Prophet whose reign was about 6 to 7 century before the Jesus, with anonymous writing, and that too, not in its original language, is this the only evidence you have that you present to change everything in the Law? This is despite what you should be reading from the NT, where Jesus is quoted saying that not an iota would change but to fulfill the law. I am really surprised with your judgment.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

I present:
2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.
4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
This encounter with Yshwe, and His words, were recorded in the books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Why do you suppose Yshwe made a point of saying, 'thy sins are forgiven'?
rather than saying 'ye are healed'?

Yshwe, time and again, showed that He was One with God,
with the power of God.
Who has the power to forgive sins, but God?
This was the reason Yshwe spoke as He did.

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


 ‘Death of Yshwe’? You mean the ‘Death of God’? Please help me?? I am really confused than ever before? Similarly, what do you mean by ‘life of Yshwe’? In Islam, this notion of ‘life and death’ is only with the creatures and not for the Creator. For us God is ever present, always present.

Does not all flesh die?
Yes, the flesh must die.
God did not die... the flesh died, and was raised again to life.  This is the power of God.

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


You just can’t escape without answering my specific question that what happens if there is no ‘Caesar’? How would Christians run their affairs? In the absence of an appropriate answer, should this not bring into my comment that it appears that the Christianity is unable to provide a standalone, one complete composite system of life for humans on earth?

'unable to provide'?
Of course this is not true.
Are you not aware that the Israelites asked for God to appoint for them a ruler?

1 Samuel 8
And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel.

2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beersheba.

3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,

5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.

7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
The qur'an speaks of this as well, in surah 2.

God will always raise up a leader according to the hearts of the people.
If the hearts of the people are turned towards God then they will have Godly leaders.
Christians pray all the time, for their leaders.

asalaam and blessings,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 08 January 2016 at 8:58am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Given the +/- one century of authenticity, that too, through a Prophesy of a Prophet whose reign was about 6 to 7 century before the Jesus, with anonymous writing, and that too, not in its original language, is this the only evidence you have that you present to change everything in the Law? This is despite what you should be reading from the NT, where Jesus is quoted saying that not an iota would change but to fulfill the law. I am really surprised with your judgment.
Greetings AhmadJoyia,I present:
2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.3 And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
7 And he arose, and departed to his house.
This encounter with Yshwe, and His words, were recorded in the books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke.Why do you suppose Yshwe made a point of saying, 'thy sins are forgiven'?rather than saying 'ye are healed'?Yshwe, time and again, showed that He was One with God, with the power of God.Who has the power to forgive sins, but God?This was the reason Yshwe spoke as He did.
This passage has nothing to do with ‘Changing the law’. Secondly, if you look carefully (highlighted in red within your quoted passage), Jesus is seen calling himself the son of man as a preferred title. If we take your perspective, do you think this is a willful bluff by God to His subjects? I don’t think so!! Hence your theory of Jesus as God is clearly false and the only logical explanation of this passage is that Jesus is speaking on the behalf of God as the fully authorized prophet to show many miracles including raising from the dead. It is also important to know that the Prophets are not ordinary human beings but the special ones who are specifically selected by the God and supported by special powers of showing Miracles. Their status in view of the God is very special as they are the ones who are made responsible to convey the God’s message to the human beings. IMHO, this could be one reason that my Christian brothers might get confused with such authoritative language Jesus speaks, but one must realize that it is only on God’s behalf.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

‘Death of Yshwe’? You mean the ‘Death of God’? Please help me?? I am really confused than ever before? Similarly, what do you mean by ‘life of Yshwe’? In Islam, this notion of ‘life and death’ is only with the creatures and not for the Creator. For us God is ever present, always present.
Does not all flesh die?Yes, the flesh must die.God did not die... the flesh died, and was raised again to life. This is the power of God.
So, you mean, the Jesus in flesh was not God? So how was he God, if not in flesh? Don’t you think that the human spirit also doesn’t die even though his flesh does? ‘Raising from the dead’ is miraculous powers given by God to the Jesus doesn’t not mean he is the God. So what is the argument?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

You just can’t escape without answering my specific question that what happens if there is no ‘Caesar’? How would Christians run their affairs? In the absence of an appropriate answer, should this not bring into my comment that it appears that the Christianity is unable to provide a standalone, one complete composite system of life for humans on earth?
'unable to provide'?Of course this is not true.Are you not aware that the Israelites asked for God to appoint for them a ruler?1 Samuel 8
And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel.2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beersheba.3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
The qur'an speaks of this as well, in surah 2.God will always raise up a leader according to the hearts of the people.If the hearts of the people are turned towards God then they will have Godly leaders.Christians pray all the time, for their leaders. asalaam and blessings,Caringheart
Thanks bro though only through futile argument of again quoting from the same sources that are historically inaccurate as shown above. Nevertheless, you do seem to agree with my statement, at least till the time the Christians don’t get the ‘leader’, that I repeat it again. If there is no ‘Caesar’, it appears that the Christianity is unable to provide a standalone, one complete composite system of life for humans on earth?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 January 2016 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

  So, you mean, the Jesus in flesh was not God? So how was he God, if not in flesh?

Greetings AhmadJoyia,
Did I share a youtube video with you?
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


 Don’t you think that the human spirit also doesn’t die even though his flesh does?

Yes. Good. You come closer to understanding.

 
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Thanks bro though only through futile argument of again quoting from the same sources that are historically inaccurate as shown above.

Are you saying then, that the qur'an is historically inaccurate?

asalaam and blessings,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 10 January 2016 at 8:54pm
My dear brother Caringheart, I do see you missing out an important part of my reply. Was it deliberate, how can I be sure, I simply don't know. Here is my reply for your eyes only.
Originally posted by ahmadjoyia

This passage has nothing to do with ‘Changing the law’. Secondly, if you look carefully (highlighted in red within your quoted passage), Jesus is seen calling himself the son of man as a preferred title. If we take your perspective, do you think this is a willful bluff by God to His subjects? I don’t think so!! Hence your theory of Jesus as God is clearly false and the only logical explanation of this passage is that Jesus is speaking on the behalf of God as the fully authorized prophet to show many miracles including raising from the dead. It is also important to know that the Prophets are not ordinary human beings but the special ones who are specifically selected by the God and supported by special powers of showing Miracles. Their status in view of the God is very special as they are the ones who are made responsible to convey the God’s message to the human beings. IMHO, this could be one reason that my Christian brothers might get confused with such authoritative language Jesus speaks, but one must realize that it is only on God’s behalf.
. I hope to find your guidance in this regards.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 January 2016 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

My dear brother Caringheart, I do see you missing out an important part of my reply. Was it deliberate, how can I be sure, I simply don't know. Here is my reply for your eyes only.
Originally posted by ahmadjoyia

This passage has nothing to do with ‘Changing the law’. Secondly, if you look carefully (highlighted in red within your quoted passage), Jesus is seen calling himself the son of man as a preferred title. If we take your perspective, do you think this is a willful bluff by God to His subjects? I don’t think so!! Hence your theory of Jesus as God is clearly false and the only logical explanation of this passage is that Jesus is speaking on the behalf of God as the fully authorized prophet to show many miracles including raising from the dead. It is also important to know that the Prophets are not ordinary human beings but the special ones who are specifically selected by the God and supported by special powers of showing Miracles. Their status in view of the God is very special as they are the ones who are made responsible to convey the God’s message to the human beings. IMHO, this could be one reason that my Christian brothers might get confused with such authoritative language Jesus speaks, but one must realize that it is only on God’s behalf.
. I hope to find your guidance in this regards.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

Apologies.  Sometimes I do not understand what it is you are meaning to say, or I do not see a question.  I only answer as the Spirit guides me to answer.

To your above I am guided tonight to say;

Yshwe was showing that He is the Law.
We know the things Yshwe said, as passed on by His Disciples...
He called Himself Son of man,
Son of God,
He called God His Father
He said, 'I and My Father are One'

It is in taking as a whole, all of the things which Yshwe said, that we see the picture of who Yshwe was.

He said many times to His Disciples,
'ye do not understand now', 'for it is not the time'
'I tell you things now, that you will understand later'
'I speak in parables that you will understand later'
'I go to a place where you can not follow'
'but I will not leave you alone, I will send the Comforter(the Holy Spirit to indwell them), but unless I go He can not come'
'tear down this temple and in 3 days I will rebuild it'

Many things Yshwe shared with His Disciples did not make sense to them until after all had been fulfilled...
but He also told them...
'I tell you these things now so that when they come to pass you will remember'

asalaam and blessings,
CAringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 11 January 2016 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

My dear brother Caringheart, I do see you missing out an important part of my reply. Was it deliberate, how can I be sure, I simply don't know. Here is my reply for your eyes only.
Originally posted by ahmadjoyia

This passage has nothing to do with ‘Changing the law’. Secondly, if you look carefully (highlighted in red within your quoted passage), Jesus is seen calling himself the son of man as a preferred title. If we take your perspective, do you think this is a willful bluff by God to His subjects? I don’t think so!! Hence your theory of Jesus as God is clearly false and the only logical explanation of this passage is that Jesus is speaking on the behalf of God as the fully authorized prophet to show many miracles including raising from the dead. It is also important to know that the Prophets are not ordinary human beings but the special ones who are specifically selected by the God and supported by special powers of showing Miracles. Their status in view of the God is very special as they are the ones who are made responsible to convey the God’s message to the human beings. IMHO, this could be one reason that my Christian brothers might get confused with such authoritative language Jesus speaks, but one must realize that it is only on God’s behalf.
. I hope to find your guidance in this regards.
Greetings AhmadJoyia, Apologies. Sometimes I do not understand what it is you are meaning to say, or I do not see a question. I only answer as the Spirit guides me to answer. To your above I am guided tonight to say; Yshwe was showing that He is the Law.
That doesn’t say he changed the law.
Originally posted by Caringheart


We know the things Yshwe said, as passed on by His Disciples...He called Himself Son of man, Son of God, He called God His Father He said, 'I and My Father are One' It is in taking as a whole, all of the things which Yshwe said, that we see the picture of who Yshwe was.
So you do prefer ‘God’s wilful deceit’ explanation as opposed to simple and logical explanation. This is very strange.
Originally posted by Caringheart


He said many times to His Disciples,'ye do not understand now', 'for it is not the time''I tell you things now, that you will understand later''I speak in parables that you will understand later''I go to a place where you can not follow''but I will not leave you alone, I will send the Comforter(the Holy Spirit to indwell them), but unless I go He can not come''tear down this temple and in 3 days I will rebuild it'Many things Yshwe shared with His Disciples did not make sense to them until after all had been fulfilled...but He also told them...'I tell you these things now so that when they come to pass you will remember'asalaam and blessings,CAringheart

IMHO, it is a mistake to take literal understanding of ‘parables’, if at all they were accurately quoted; which is highly improbable given the fact of anonymous authorship of the four canonical gospels.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

So, you mean, the Jesus in flesh was not God? So how was he God, if not in flesh?
Greetings AhmadJoyia, Did I share a youtube video with you?
Which one? Can you put it into your own words?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Don’t you think that the human spirit also doesn’t die even though his flesh does?
Yes. Good. You come closer to understanding.
But this fact, takes away uniqueness of your theory about Jesus’s life or death etc.
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Thanks bro though only through futile argument of again quoting from the same sources that are historically inaccurate as shown above.
Are you saying then, that the qur'an is historically inaccurate? asalaam and blessings,Caringheart
Your assertion would not change the fact pertaining to the historical inaccuracy of 1 Samuel 8. Secondly, since this source is not from the NT, how can it be used to support your argument of changed law under Christian sons of Israel?

Lastly, but not the least, your answer does not refute but support my assertion where you replied to my comment:-
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Nevertheless, you do seem to agree with my statement, at least till the time the Christians don’t get the ‘leader’, that I repeat it again. If there is no ‘Caesar’, it appears that the Christianity is unable to provide a standalone, one complete composite system of life for humans on earth?

God will always raise up a leader according to the hearts of the people.
If the hearts of the people are turned towards God then they will have Godly leaders.
Christians pray all the time, for their leaders.

Should I conclude from this answer ‘a deficiency’ in Christian system of governing human life on earth till the leader is found or there is something that you want to correct me about?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 11 January 2016 at 4:38pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

So you do prefer ‘God’s wilful deceit’ explanation as opposed to simple and logical explanation. This is very strange.

Greetings AhmadJoyia,

I do not view it your way at all.
There is no 'willful deceit'.
God is multi-faceted and beyond explanation to the human mind.  That is why He is described in many ways.  There are many attributes of God.  Islam, as well, teaches about the many attributes of God.

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


Which one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUy-H5MmeGU&index=7&list=PLGHRsCEDjj5clk9Zhg2RDmsujQ_7GtfaX

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia


Should I conclude from this answer ‘a deficiency’ in Christian system of governing human life on earth till the leader is found or there is something that you want to correct me about?

There is no human leader that will ever be able to rule justly on earth.  It is why we await, and look forward with anticipation, to the coming of our Savior, Yshwe Messiah.

asalaam and blessings,
Caringheart


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 12 January 2016 at 1:20am
Originally posted by Caringheart




Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

So you do prefer ‘God’s wilful deceit’ explanation as opposed to simple and logical explanation. This is very strange.
Greetings AhmadJoyia,I do not view it your way at all.There is no 'willful deceit'.God is multi-faceted and beyond explanation to the human mind.  That is why He is described in many ways.  There are many attributes of God.  Islam, as well, teaches about the many attributes of God.
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Which one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUy-H5MmeGU&index=7&list=PLGHRsCEDjj5clk9Zhg2RDmsujQ_7GtfaX

Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Should I conclude from this answer ‘a deficiency’ in Christian system of governing human life on earth till the leader is found or there is something that you want to correct me about?
There is no human leader that will ever be able to rule justly on earth.  It is why we await, and look forward with anticipation, to the coming of our Savior, Yshwe Messiah.asalaam and blessings,Caringheart
Thanks bro, for concluding a healthy debate, I must appreciate it.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 January 2016 at 3:32pm
for AhmadJoyia
"God transcends all concepts of God, even the truest ones.
If we don't believe this, we have made Him in our own image."
Smile


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 January 2016 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Thanks bro, for concluding a healthy debate, I must appreciate it.

Thumbs%20Up Smile


-------------
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis



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