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comparative studies

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23598
Printed Date: 31 October 2014 at 9:51pm


Topic: comparative studies
Posted By: Caringheart
Subject: comparative studies
Date Posted: 29 July 2012 at 9:02pm
an invite to discussion/dialogue.
Dialogue
1.  conversation between two or more persons.
3.  an exchange of ideas or opinions on a particular issue, especially a political or religious issue, with a view to reaching an amicable agreement or settlement.
4. to carry on a dialogue; converse.
5. to discuss areas of disagreement frankly in order to resolve them.
Discussion
1. an extended communication (often interactive) dealing with some particular topic
2. an exchange of views on some topic


"Whatever you do for the least of my brothers..." (Matthew 25:31-46)(Christian message)

Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection." - Sahih Bukhari Volume 003, Book 043, Hadith Number 622. (message of Muhammad)

We have different definitions of who a brother is...
Christianity embraces all mankind.

Narated By 'Abdullah bin 'Amr : The Prophet said, "A Muslim is the one who avoids harming Muslims with his tongue and hands. - Sahih Bukhari Volume 001, Book 002, Hadith Number 009.

Problem:  Here again, Muslims are instructed only to treat other Muslims well.  (prejudice)

and here again;
Narated By Anas : The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself." - Sahih Bukhari Volume 001, Book 002, Hadith Number 012.

Which is the honorable teaching... the one that is free of man and man's way of thinking?
Wouldn't it seem more Godly to say that the Muslim is the one who avoids harming any other with his tongue or his hands?
This is what the Christian teaching says... love one another...
the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

treat others as you yourself would want to be treated... no qualifications to say love one another as long as they as Christian, or treat others well only if they share your belief.  Jesus treated everyone well.  Are you familiar with the story of the good samaritan?  Are you familiar with Jesus walking with the lepers, eating with sinners?  Are you familiar with Jesus who said; I came to save the lost.
“It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” - the words of Jesus (Mark 2, Luke 5)

Which is most holy?

Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”  (Matthew 9, and also Hosea 6:6)


Now I know what I see in the Muslim way of life... but what is in the Muslim thinking... in the teaching?

Thanking those willing to participate in discussion.
Heart

surah 58:22 is just an interpretation of what Jesus said in Matthew... I bring not peace but a sword... enemies of ones own household... those who believe and those who do not....

except that it reverses the message of Jesus. Whereas Jesus was saying that you will be hated by those who do not believe in me, and they will be members even of your own household...

Muhammad says, you will not find those believing in me loving those who do not. These are two very different messages, for whatever the reasons. Perhaps Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures or perhaps he just translated them poorly to his own people.

Jesus was the essence of Love and wanted us to love the lost. The message of Jesus is that it is through love that the lost may be brought to God.

surah 5:82

Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud

What Muhammad was seeing in the Christians was their Love, the Love that comes from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Christians willing to reach out in Love and acceptance to those who do not believe, rather than condemn them, as Jesus did not condemn but rather invited to repentance. This is why Muhammad felt that the Christians were accepting of him where the Jews and idol worshipers were not. The difference is Christ Jesus. What he was seeing was the Love of Christians that comes through Christ.




Replies:
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 01 August 2012 at 10:19am
Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is the final messenger of God send to mankind and the Holy Qur'an is the final revelation. All that has been sent before this are null and void and defunct. All those who do not believe in this new revelation are outside of His mercy. For salvation you must believe in Muhammed (pbuh) and his message.
 
Sahih International
Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. 2:109


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 01 August 2012 at 12:58pm
Caringheart,
something is going on. I have replied to your post before here and other threads but somehow many of those posts have disappeared or erased, by whom? only Allah knows.
I am so excited about this thread, comparative studies on religion is my favorite. We are going to have a lot of learning in this one, God willing.

Anyway I will try to answer your post agian. First I must say, based on your writing, it appears either you are mixing up things or you are mixed up dear. And I will try to show you where.
The quote you are using actually use word "brother" as well: So you cannot use that to say that it also means those who did not believe Jesus. Those who did not believe in him being the Messiah, whom Jesus according to the Bible condemned and called names in various verses.

So through select verses you were trying to show that
Christianity somehow delivers more than Islam!
And you do that under the label of "comparative studies".
I smell something fishy or simply you are "putting too much cream to your tacos" (just a saying here in Hispanic culture)              

First of all, being good toward all is a universal teaching, a Hindu will not step on an ant for example. All religions teach to be good toward others, including Islam. Simply because all religions have one origin, as mankind emerged from one man, Adam, who was guided to worship one God. It is children who strayed from that one path. God's Love and Mercy showed in form of His guidance through various prophets to correct our path.

The Quran is the primary source for a believer's guidance. And the Quran says on many places to be good not just to your fellow Muslims but toward all, in fact toward all of God's creation. To say otherwise is simply naive and ignorant of Islamic teachings.

2:177 (Picktall) It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing.


Prophets were sent by God to be living examples of how a true believer should be. Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was a great example of how a true believer should be, and so was Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) who was loved and respected by people of the book, who used to ask him to be a judge in matters that needed his wisdom and honesty toward a just decision. He was kind toward those who personally hated him and who tried to hurt him. In turn he looked for them and their well being and instead of take a revenge showed kindness to them, a true beauty of Islam.

So, on that issue you cannot compare Islam to any as Islam set examples that others still have to follow. Christians of different colors may still not sit in the same church to offer worship to God here in US and in many other countries, but God through Islam declared that a man is not better than another man because of his color or race.
These words the Prophet spoke more than 1400 years ago during his last sermon :

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action."

Hasan   

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 August 2012 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is the final messenger of God send to mankind and the Holy Qur'an is the final revelation. All that has been sent before this are null and void and defunct. All those who do not believe in this new revelation are outside of His mercy. For salvation you must believe in Muhammed (pbuh) and his message.
 
Sahih International
Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. 2:109



3:113 They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate (before Him).
3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous.
3:115 And whatever good they do, they will not be denied the meed thereof. Allah is Aware of those who ward off (evil).



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 August 2012 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
something is going on. I have replied to your post before here and other threads but somehow many of those posts have disappeared or erased, by whom? only Allah knows.
I am so excited about this thread, comparative studies on religion is my favorite. We are going to have a lot of learning in this one, God willing.


Christians of different colors may still not sit in the same church to offer worship to God here in US
Hasan   


Sorry but I can not really respond since you didn't really respond to what I had written... but these two things...
"something is going on. I have replied to your post before here and other threads but somehow many of those posts have disappeared or erased, by whom? only Allah knows. "
Yes I know... frustrating and discouraging.  It is difficult to hold a conversation when you put in the time, and then half of what you took the time for disappears, and the thread of the conversation is lost... pieces missing.
"Christians of different colors may still not sit in the same church to offer worship to God here in US "
I don't know where you are at, but I know of churches all across the country where you have all races present.   Have you ever attended a church meeting?



Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 02 August 2012 at 12:46pm
 
This is talking about the Christians and Jews who converted to Islam. See the following tasfir.
 
Yet they, the People of the Scripture, are not all alike, equal; some of the People of the Scripture are a community upright, with integrity, adhering to the truth, such as ‘Abd Allāh b. Salām, may God be pleased with him and his companions, who recite God’s verses in the watches of the night, that is, during its hours, prostrating themselves, performing prayer (wa-hum yasjudūn, ‘prostrating themselves’, is a circumstantial qualifier).

 


Posted By: flyffdzd
Date Posted: 03 August 2012 at 2:29am
Prophets were sent by God to be living examples of how a true believer should be.

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Everything is good!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 August 2012 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

 
This is talking about the Christians and Jews who converted to Islam. See the following tasfir.
 
Yet they, the People of the Scripture, are not all alike, equal; some of the People of the Scripture are a community upright, with integrity, adhering to the truth, such as ‘Abd Allāh b. Salām, may God be pleased with him and his companions, who recite God’s verses in the watches of the night, that is, during its hours, prostrating themselves, performing prayer (wa-hum yasjudūn, ‘prostrating themselves’, is a circumstantial qualifier).

 


Right.  Muhammad was always adding qualifiers as afterthoughts.  I thought Qur'an is supposed to be sufficient.  This is why I am unconvinced of Muhammad as prophet of God.  I see him as more of a man advancing his own agenda, which is not to say it was a bad agenda, or that it did not accomplish good things for a time... and still can.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
something is going on. I have replied to your post before here and other threads but somehow many of those posts have disappeared or erased, by whom? only Allah knows.
I am so excited about this thread, comparative studies on religion is my favorite. We are going to have a lot of learning in this one, God willing.

Christians of different colors may still not sit in the same church to offer worship to God here in US Hasan   [IMG]smileys/smiley2.gif" align="middle" />
Sorry but I can not really respond since you didn't really respond to what I had written... but these two things...
"something is going on. I have replied to your post before here and
other threads but somehow many of those posts have disappeared or
erased, by whom? only Allah knows.
"
Yes I know... frustrating and discouraging.  It is difficult to hold a conversation when you put in the time, and then half of what you took the time for disappears, and the thread of the conversation is lost... pieces missing.
"Christians of different colors may still not sit in the same church to offer worship to God here in US "
I don't know where you are at, but I know of churches all across the country where you have all races present.   Have you ever attended a church meeting?


Caringheart,
there may be churches that have mixed race members, but I was talking about race based Churches here in the US. Black churches and only white churches all along southern states. It is a common phenomenon, its strange that you seem to be unaware of that.
I have visited several churches in the past.

I did not see you address rest of my post above.
Hasan

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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Caringheart


Sorry but I can not really respond since you didn't really respond to what I had written... but these two things...


Caringheart,
there may be churches that have mixed race members, but I was talking about race based Churches here in the US. Black churches and only white churches all along southern states. It is a common phenomenon, its strange that you seem to be unaware of that.
I have visited several churches in the past.

I did not see you address rest of my post above.
Hasan


Hello Hasan,
"Sorry but I can not really respond since you didn't really respond to what I had written... but these two things..."
Did you miss that part of my last reply?  Smile

[edit]
or perhaps I just could not understand what it was you were trying to say?  What can be said about passages in the Qur'an that always have qualifiers about who to like, who to help?  and yet you say the Qur'an says love all.  I see that the Qur'an is very conflicting in what it says.  It's either 'love only those who proclaim to be Muslim' or it is 'love all'.  Which is it that Allah says?  It seems Allah says both.  Whereas, Jesus said 'love all' without qualification.  Jesus never separated Himself from anyone.  He came to call the lost not condemn them.

It is comparative... what Muhammad taught vs. what Jesus taught.
Muhammad seems to have been confused.  Is God a God of confusion? [end edit]

Regarding the separate black churches...
As far as my knowledge extends...
Originally, during the slave days, the blacks attended church with their masters... but sat in separated sections.  I believe the blacks were made to sit in balconies.
When the blacks became free they established their own churches and I believe it has remained this way in great part because the blacks(African Americans) have their own style of worship which does not necessarily appeal to the whites... and vice versa.  Each has their own way and each chooses what suits them best.  The black churches are much more, shall we say vigorous, or animated, in their services.   But I know of a great many integrated churches where people of all colors attend.  It is a matter of preference in the U.S.   People go where they are most comfortable... where they feel they best fit in, or get the most out of their worship service.

Can anyone that wants to, attend a Mosque if they want to?

Heart


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 10:13am
Caringheart,
I think you are mixed up and I can help, God willing.
First, God loves his creation, all. It is for that purpose that He showers His Mercy on all, those who deny Him, those who obey Him, and those who are unaware of Him. I am sure religious teachings tell us that. Our God given brain with simple use can figure that out as well.
Now, the second part comes with God giving us the free will and telling us what is right and what is wrong, and to do right and stay away from wrong. God also told us that if we willfully decide to do wrong, we will have its consequence, a punishment. And if we do right as God tell us, thus obey God, we will be rewarded afterward.
Quite simple, so far, I hope.
The above message was universal and preached by All of God's prophets. That is what I have been saying.
You are saying that Jesus, somehow preaches love for all, that need explanation. Are you saying that Jesus' love thingy means that even if you accept or reject God, obey or disobey God, there is no punishment or reward? or with this love, there is no punishment for anyone?
Please clarify your understanding and belief on this, so we can proceed and conclude on this issue.

Caringheart, In USA before the end of segregation in most of the Southern states blacks could not attend anything that was for whites, that included churches, schools, theaters, ride bus or train cars and so on.
To this day there are race oriented churches that only cater on color lines. I know that now there are churches that have mixed color people, but still there are churches that are color oriented.

Attending Mosque:
Any Muslim can attend mosque as a worshiper, any non-Muslim as a visitor, even though in any mosque no one will check if you are a worshiper or visitor at the door.
We get visitors at our mosques here in South Texas often. And since, mosques generally don't have membership people freely worship at different mosques. I myself have prayed at all four mosques in our town. And I have lived in several states and saw similar practices. One more thing, we get Shias ofen attend our mosques too and we worship side by side.
Peace,
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 04 September 2014 at 10:52am

the words of Yshwe;

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

This reminded me today, of a verse of the qur'an that I remember reading.  Anyone recognize it?

Muhammad spoke of it being a good thing to move to another land when one was not welcomed in their current place, and that allah has his reward for this?



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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 13 September 2014 at 10:31am
hI Caringheart,

It is comparative... what Muhammad taught vs. what Jesus taught.
Muhammad seems to have been confused. Is God a God of confusion? [end edit]

You see when you say the teaching of Jesus what do you mean,where is it where Jesus speaks unequivocally??? you can quote Paul the liar as much as you want we cannot believe the Bible as the true word of God and we have posted several posts on this.You have no evidence.
     


Thank you iec


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 October 2014 at 2:26pm
The Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله was asked: O Messenger of Allah, when will the Qa’im appear from your offspring? So he said: Its [time is] like the proverb of the Hour, about which is said, “He alone will manifest it at its proper time. It is heavy in the heavens and the Earth. It shall not come upon you except unexpectedly.” (7:187)

It seems here that Muhammad is directly quoting Biblical scripture.

Luke 21 - the Word of Yshwe
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

37 And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.

38 And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.


'No one knows the hour but the Creator... and that day may may come as a 'thief in the night''

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. (Matthew 24)


32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. (Mark 13)
- all the words of Yshwe



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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 October 2014 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


The Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله was asked: O Messenger of Allah, when will the Qa’im appear from your offspring? So he said: Its [time is] like the proverb of the Hour, about which is said, “He alone will manifest it at its proper time. It is heavy in the heavens and the Earth. It shall not come upon you except unexpectedly.” (7:187)It seems here that Muhammad is directly quoting Biblical scripture.




Poor Caringheart. You still don't get it. This is proof positive that your heart and head is covered by a veil of misunderstanding.

ALL THE PROPHETS AND MESSENGERS CAME WITH THE SAME MESSAGE.

When will you understand? The MESSAGE is from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala the ONLY ONE GOD.

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Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 October 2014 at 8:56pm

I found this very interesting/enlightening

Honor

Arab storytellers tell the story of a father who is working in the hot sun with two of his sons. When he needed a drink of water, he asked the older of the boys to get him some. 'No, I will not,' the elder son replied.

The father then asked his younger son who said 'Yes, certainly father.' but he did not get the water.

At this point the storyteller always asks his audience, "Which is the better son?"

To give the wrong answer would be shaming but the storyteller knows that his listeners will give the correct answer. The younger son is the better of the two because he had saved his father's face by not defying him.


In the west we would point out that both boys were wrong.

This seems irrelevant to the Arab who does not think in terms of right and wrong, but in terms of shame and honor. To say no to your father's face would be to dishonor him. To agree with him, while in front of him, is to honor him.

When Jesus told a similar story in Matthew 21:28-32, he added that the first son, who refused, later went and did what the father asked. In this way, he restored honor by obeying his father. Jesus used this illustration to show that repentance covers shame, a concept that has been adopted by western Christianity.

I add here the passage... the teaching of Yshwe;

28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Which of them did the will of his father?

In my own words I add... who truly honors the father?


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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever



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