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Hijab - Freedom NOT Oppression : Opinion

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Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23532
Printed Date: 26 November 2014 at 10:38am


Topic: Hijab - Freedom NOT Oppression : Opinion
Posted By: Nausheen
Subject: Hijab - Freedom NOT Oppression : Opinion
Date Posted: 19 July 2012 at 9:23pm
http://muslimvillage.com/2012/07/19/25305/freedom-of-the-hijab-opinion/ - http://muslimvillage.com/2012/07/19/25305/freedom-of-the-hijab-opinion/
 
It’s been over two months since I decided to become a hijabi — one who wears a head scarf and adheres to modest clothing — and before you race to label me the poster girl for oppressed womanhood everywhere, let me tell you as a woman (with a master’s degree in human rights, and a graduate degree in psychology) why I see this as the most liberating experience ever.

Prior to becoming a hijabi, I did not expect myself to go down this road. Although I knew modesty was encouraged in my culture and by my faith, I never saw the need nor had the opportunity to explore the reasons behind it.

My experience working as a Faiths Act Fellow for the Tony Blair Faith Foundation and dealing with interfaith action for social action brought me more understanding and appreciation of various faiths. I found that engaging in numerous interfaith endeavours strengthened my personal understanding about my own faith. The questions and challenges I encountered increased my inquisitiveness and drive to explore and learn for myself various fundamental aspects of Islam. Thus began my journey to hijab-dom.

I am abundantly aware of the rising concerns and controversies over how a few yards of cloth covering a woman’s head is written off as a global threat to women’s education, public security, rights and even religion. I am also conscious of the media’s preferred mode of portraying all hijabi women as downtrodden and dominated by misogynist mullahs or male relatives who enforce them into sweltering pieces of oppressive clothing. But I believe my hijab liberates me. I know many who portray the hijab as the placard for either forced silence or fundamentalist regimes; but personally I found it to be neither.

For someone who passionately studied and works for human rights and women’s empowerment, I realized that working for these causes while wearing the hijab can only contribute to breaking the misconception that Muslim women lack the strength, passion and power to strive for their own rights. This realization was the final push I needed to declare to the world on my birthday this year that henceforth I am a hijabi.

In a society that embraces uncovering, how can it be oppressive if I decided to cover up? I see hijab as the freedom to regard my body as my own concern and as a way to secure personal liberty in a world that objectifies women. I refuse to see how a woman’s significance is rated according to her looks and the clothes she wears. I am also absolutely certain that the skewed perception of women’s equality as the right to bare our breasts in public only contributes to our own objectification. I look forward to a whole new day when true equality will be had with women not needing to display themselves to get attention nor needing to defend their decision to keep their bodies to themselves.

In a world besotted with the looks, body and sexuality of women, the hijab can be an assertive mode of individual feministic expression and rights. I regard my hijab to be a commanding question of “I control what you see, how is that not empowering” mixed with a munificent amount of authority emanating from the “My body is my own concern” clause. I believe my hijab gives me the right to assert my body, femininity and spirituality as my own and under my authority alone.

I know many would agree with me when I say that the hijab is basically an expression of spirituality and a personal bond with one’s creator, a tangible spiritual reminder that guides everyday life.

Yes, my hijab is a visual religious marker that makes it very easy for anyone to spot me in a crowd as a separate entity representing or adhering to a particular religion. This is all the more reason why, being a hijabi in the public arena is an escalating force that drives me to work in ways that would help break the undignified stereotypes, barriers and prejudices that my Islamic faith is relentlessly and irrationally associated with. As an extension of my personality and identity, it instigates me to challenge the misconception that Muslim women lack the bravery, intellect and resilience to challenge authority and fight for their own rights.

Every time I see my reflection in the mirror, I see a woman who has chosen to be a rights activist, who happens to be a Muslim and covers her hair incidentally. My reflection reminds me of the convictions that made me take up the hijab in first place — to work for a world where a woman isn’t judged by how she looks or what she wears, a world in which she needn’t defend the right to make decisions about her own body, in which she can be whoever she wants to be without ever having to choose between her religion and her rights.



-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.



Replies:
Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 20 July 2012 at 3:08am
As'alaamu Alaikkum

May Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala keep guiding you to the Straight Path Ameen.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 3:54am
Nausheen, just make sure your skin gets enough sunshine because your body needs it to create vitamin D. And in Western cultures it is wrong to wear a face veil. We can live with people who want to cover their hair.




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Nausheen, just make sure your skin gets enough sunshine because your body needs it to create vitamin D.

When a person has strong conviction of something, in their belief  lacking of vitamin is not an issue for much greater cause.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

And in Western cultures it is wrong to wear a face veil.

I am not a fan of face veil at all but I won't make it into a cultural dislike. People can change, in many cases with different approaches.
One day after Eid prayer in the car park a woman approached me saying: "Brother how are you". But I could not recognized her as she wore the veil. And she said "I am Rashid's wife, we were neighbours remember?". The name rang the bell but which Rashid?. Than she removed her face veil, and she said "Sorry, the sheikh told us to wear the veil".

You know it is your personality that represent yourself as who you are and that personality that will give you the response of others.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 25 July 2012 at 8:34am
I think it's important for Muslims to know that men who force their wives to wear face veils and women who choose to wear face veils are not welcome in our countries. In our countries we like to see the smiles on other people's faces.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 25 July 2012 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

I think it's important for Muslims to know that men who force their wives to wear face veils and women who choose to wear face veils are not welcome in our countries. In our countries we like to see the smiles on other people's faces.

 
I can understand a comment like this from a white European, racist comments are not that rare in the West. Europe and America are now multi-cultural places and as such some members of society are denied their freedom and their freedom of expression. Yes of course the majority in these countries are white Anglo-Saxon christians but they also need to be tolerant of other cultures and religions.
 
Women were told to dress modestly in ALL three books from God yet people like to implement rules that they like and not what God wants.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 25 July 2012 at 3:59pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Matt Browne

I think it's important for Muslims to know that men who force their wives to wear face veils and women who choose to wear face veils are not welcome in our countries. In our countries we like to see the smiles on other people's faces.

 
I can understand a comment like this from a white European, racist comments are not that rare in the West. Europe and America are now multi-cultural places and as such some members of society are denied their freedom and their freedom of expression. Yes of course the majority in these countries are white Anglo-Saxon christians but they also need to be tolerant of other cultures and religions.
 
Women were told to dress modestly in ALL three books from God yet people like to implement rules that they like and not what God wants.


The comment about being racist is inappropriate, as when a woman visits in an Islamic country she must cover her hair.  Is this the Muslim being racist?  Or is it abiding by the wishes of the rule in that country?

To me the definition of modesty is to dress in a way that does not seek to cause lust in a man.  Does uncovered hair cause lust in a man?  Does man have no responsibility to control his own thoughts and actions?  Without exercise the muscle becomes weak.  Is it good that men are made weak by attempting to remove all need of their own exercise of self control?  Is it good that man does not learn responsibility for himself?

Heart


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 4:16am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Matt Browne

I think it's important for Muslims to know that men who force their wives to wear face veils and women who choose to wear face veils are not welcome in our countries. In our countries we like to see the smiles on other people's faces.

 
I can understand a comment like this from a white European, racist comments are not that rare in the West. Europe and America are now multi-cultural places and as such some members of society are denied their freedom and their freedom of expression. Yes of course the majority in these countries are white Anglo-Saxon christians but they also need to be tolerant of other cultures and religions.
 
Women were told to dress modestly in ALL three books from God yet people like to implement rules that they like and not what God wants.


The comment about being racist is inappropriate, as when a woman visits in an Islamic country she must cover her hair.  Is this the Muslim being racist?  Or is it abiding by the wishes of the rule in that country?

To me the definition of modesty is to dress in a way that does not seek to cause lust in a man.  Does uncovered hair cause lust in a man?  Does man have no responsibility to control his own thoughts and actions?  Without exercise the muscle becomes weak.  Is it good that men are made weak by attempting to remove all need of their own exercise of self control?  Is it good that man does not learn responsibility for himself?

Heart
 
I've lived in the UK for nearly forty years and experienced all forms of racism from an early age so I know what I'm talking about. Europe is slowly gathering pace in the racist stakes by banning the hijab, niqab etc and it will only be a matter of time until the Muslims are treated like the Jews were by the Nazis in the 1930's.
 
People of God will always be oppressed and persecuted, this is a sign for the believers to be strong in their faith and it is a test to see who will persevere to the end.
 
As for your other point, I can understand your point. I personally prefer women who cover up. I am in the UK currently and I as soon as I landed the first thing I noticed was that the majority of the women walking around half naked. Most are proud to wear almost nothing and it is like they are proud of this fact and mentally telling men 'look at me are'nt I gorgeous?'.


Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 7:48am
[
[/QUOTE]
 
I can understand a comment like this from a white European, racist comments are not that rare in the West. Europe and America are now multi-cultural places and as such some members of society are denied their freedom and their freedom of expression. Yes of course the majority in these countries are white Anglo-Saxon christians but they also need to be tolerant of other cultures and religions.
 
Women were told to dress modestly in ALL three books from God yet people like to implement rules that they like and not what God wants.
[/QUOTE]
 
 
I agree with Abu Loren.
Nothing, there are many ways to get to know a person's personality without seeing their faces.  I used to wear the veil, and when I wore it so many people were able to recognize me and they were able to know my personality without having any problems. 
 
I do think that women who who do not dress modest do it because they want attention from men.  If I tell anyone that I have earrings on under my hijab or if a nonmuslim women see my hair at MY HOUSE then she will ALWAYS say, "why you have.....hair or wear earrings since you can not show it to people."  Wallahi. I always smile because this reassure me that they are mainly naked because they like to show their body to men (and maybe to women too).Smile
It is almost like when they meet someone confident with niqaabi or hijaabi, they are thinking "wow, you seem to be different than what I expected or how dare you be confident with that thing on your head or your face, or etc..."  And of course, we have many nonmuslim admirers as well....Smile
Muslim women are so eloquent with the hijabi and niqaabi. And the nonmuslims know this too.Wink
 Do I think that women without the niqaabi are not eloquent? 
NO, but of course I can not say this is true about the women who do not dress modest.
I think that when a nonmodest dressing woman and man see women who dress modest, or cover their hair or face, then it is like they are reminded by us of what they should not be wearing, and doing in general. 
  I really think that  is why you hear comments made against hijabis and niqaabis from people like Matt Browne and from Caringheart. 
Wink


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by lady

[
  I really think that  is why you hear comments made against hijabis and niqaabis from people like Matt Browne and from Caringheart. 
Wink


Did a make a comment against hijabis and niqaabis?

I don't believe I did.  Indeed when I see women wearing the veil (not the one that covers the whole face) I am reminded of the blessed mother of Jesus and the beauty of purity and innocence.  Indeed the women(the nuns) of the Catholic church still cover this way.

I agree with modesty.  I thought that was what I said.
I agree with Abu Loren, except about the racist comment.
Like I said, Is it racist to make me wear a veil in an Islamic country, or is it just abiding according to their culture.
I actually think it is lovely to see the women who wear head coverings.  I miss the days when Christian women used to wear head coverings to go to church.  I just know that I could not stand to have to cover my head every time I went out in public, especially in the heat, and I would hate it if something bad could happen to me because I did not cover my head or I happened to allow a bit of hair to show.  Is this what God created?  Didn't God create Adam and Eve, naked in the garden?  Did God make women beautiful so that it must be hidden?  I do not agree that women should cover their face.  That to me is dehumanizing... making them as if non-existent in the world.

I agree it is not good to cause lust.  That is something I believe God does not want.   We must be considerate of our brothers.   Indeed I am instructed;
'Do not do that which would cause offense to a brother, or that which might cause a brother to stumble.'
One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, ... eats only vegetables.   3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt  the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?  To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat[or do]*, you are no longer acting in love.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.  20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food.  All food is clean,  but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.   21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.

22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves.


23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's well-being.
(from the Christian Bible) *I added [or do]

A good deal of what is wrong in the world might be improved by the behavior of women, but a good deal must be improved by the men. 
After all, the start of immodesty began with the lure of the prostitute, did it not?  When men are 'drawn away by their lust'?  Women are now competing with the behavior of the prostitute in order to draw a man.
Or did it start when the men began to travel the world and landed on beaches, and in far away places, where the women were unclothed(as in Africa), or scantily clothed because of the warm climates(as in the island places?  Where others dressed according to their culture.

I'm afraid that change has to come from the minds of the men and what they allow their minds to focus on.
Still, we women could help those men who want to be men of God, by dressing appropriately and by being women of virtue.

But a man must first desire a woman of virtue.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


I've lived in the UK for nearly forty years and experienced all forms of racism from an early age so I know what I'm talking about. Europe is slowly gathering pace in the racist stakes by banning the hijab, niqab etc and it will only be a matter of time until the Muslims are treated like the Jews were by the Nazis in the 1930's.
 
People of God will always be oppressed and persecuted, this is a sign for the believers to be strong in their faith and it is a test to see who will persevere to the end.
 
As for your other point, I can understand your point. I personally prefer women who cover up. I am in the UK currently and I as soon as I landed the first thing I noticed was that the majority of the women walking around half naked. Most are proud to wear almost nothing and it is like they are proud of this fact and mentally telling men 'look at me are'nt I gorgeous?'.


Greetings Abu Loren,

I don't doubt that racism exists... always has, but I don't think not wanting women all covered up so that you can not recognize who is under there... could easily be a man hiding... I do not think this is due to racism, but practicality.

Personally I can't imagine a thing like what happened to the Jews at the hand of the Nazi's ever happening again to anyone... I pray that we could never return to such a time of barbarism, to such inhumanity towards anyone... but then barbarism existed in Roman times and we thought we had risen above it and become civilized, and along comes Hitler... evil does exist in the world.  I just hope that people are educated and informed enough to never be misled by such a leader again. Confused


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 26 July 2012 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by lady

 
 
  If I tell anyone that I have earrings on under my hijab or if a nonmuslim women see my hair at MY HOUSE then she will ALWAYS say, "why you have.....hair or wear earrings since you can not show it to people."  Wallahi. I always smile because this reassure me that they are mainly naked because they like to show their body to men (and maybe to women too).Smile 
 
Dear Lady, Assalamualaikum wa rahamtullah.
And, Ramadan Kareem to you and yours!
 
This reminds me of so many, many experiences with the hijab.
The most common of those is ...in summer  Japanese women carry some sort of fan with them - and say 'atsui! atsui', which means 'its hot!' I m not sure why they address me about the weather coz they usually dont talk to strangers. Gesturing with their fans saying atsui, atsui, when Im in a hijab, as if they are telling me 'whats wrong with you woman! aren't you feeling hot?
 
Have started to practice not taking off my hijab even at home when there are visitors (non-muslim females), because I read somewhere that the list of non-mehram includes non-beleiving women as well.  Allah knows best.
 
btw, about the vit D comment by Matt Brown - thanks to the drug companies who are always in competition with each other, these days most of the Calcium supplements include Vit D3 in them Tongue
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 28 July 2012 at 3:53am
Vitamin D pills with the proper dosage are expensive. Millions of the fully cloaked women can't afford to buy them. Sunshine is for free. All that is needed is getting rid of full hijabs.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 28 July 2012 at 4:09am

One hour of sunshine is enough for vitamin D.  Sitting near a window where the sun comes through is another way of getting enough of sun.   Drinking almond milk can also help.

yes, Nausheen, I heard that it is not good to show nonmuslims your beauty as well. When I heard this, it was more to the fact that they may accidently reveal it loosely to others,since keeping this a secret is not one of their highest priority.
I usually do not unreveal myself to anyone unless I really know the person well, even if you are a muslim this still applies. But thanks for the reminder.Smile


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 29 July 2012 at 8:37am
Sometimes I am quite shocked about the lack of education that's showing in some of the posts. Why do people seem to have trouble memorizing the definition of a term like racism? As if the decision for a face veil is a criterion for race. One can't even see the skin color. How can this then be racism? Muslims expect respect for their culture without being willing to respect non-Muslim cultures. This won't work. Muslims should not kid themselves. They should not underestimate Western resolve.

Sitting near a window to get vitamin D? UVB radiation does not penetrate glass. Checking scientific facts is a good idea before making recommendations that affect human health.




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 29 July 2012 at 12:58pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne


Sitting near a window to get vitamin D? UVB radiation does not penetrate glass.


Thanks Matt for answering a question that I've had.  I had wondered if I could get my vitamin D when I am sitting in the sunshine by a window.  I need to get 10 minutes a day for my health.


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 29 July 2012 at 3:50pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne



Sitting near a window to get vitamin D? UVB radiation does not penetrate glass. Checking scientific facts is a good idea before making recommendations that affect human health.




Its silly to think that Muslim women don't have access to sunlight just because they cover up in public. Unless a lady is wearing a full niqab, her skin is still exposed to sunlight. (hands, face, feet).

Women who wear the full niqab can still get sunlight in their balcony, garden, or open window. The odds of a Niqabi woman not having access to sunlight are slim.

Chances of a person suffering from lack of vitamin D are slim, especially since one needs 4-10 minutes of sun exposure thrice a week! Over-exposure to sunlight is a bigger concern and one that most people suffer from.





-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 29 July 2012 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Sometimes I am quite shocked about the lack of education that's showing in some of the posts. Why do people seem to have trouble memorizing the definition of a term like racism? As if the decision for a face veil is a criterion for race. One can't even see the skin color. How can this then be racism? Muslims expect respect for their culture without being willing to respect non-Muslim cultures. This won't work. Muslims should not kid themselves. They should not underestimate Western resolve.

Sitting near a window to get vitamin D? UVB radiation does not penetrate glass. Checking scientific facts is a good idea before making recommendations that affect human health.


To Matt and CH
I really do think that racism and prejudice are the same words....Smile
When I mentioned that "sitting next to a window will give you vitamin d,"
I was picturing that the window would be opened.Star
Thanks for your advice about checking facts before giving recommendations to others....Smile
Do you really do this yourself before posting comments about islam?Wink
I dont think we need an answer from you.Smile
Matt:  I do think that you and I have something in common, that is:
You may get shocked from the lack of education people may have but I get shocked by the level of arrogance that are in people. Smile


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 30 July 2012 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by lady


To Matt and CH
I really do think that racism and prejudice are the same words....Smile
When I mentioned that "sitting next to a window will give you vitamin d,"
I was picturing that the window would be opened.Star
Thanks for your advice about checking facts before giving recommendations to others....Smile
Do you really do this yourself before posting comments about islam?Wink
I dont think we need an answer from you.Smile
Matt:  I do think that you and I have something in common, that is:
You may get shocked from the lack of education people may have but I get shocked by the level of arrogance that are in people. Smile



As-Salāmu Alaykum Lady,

You are addressing me?  Not sure how I got drawn into this, but if you are, yes I research thoroughly before sharing my opinions on what I have learned about Islam.  What I share are always opinions.
Salaam.
Caringheart


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 31 July 2012 at 7:09am
So you have a super-devout Muslima sitting by an open window for an hour to get the required sunshine. The face alone would not be enough. You need at least two arms without sleeves as well. On the street people walk by and they can see her face. Which is no problem for me. But a problem for the super-devout folks. Well, maybe we make the ground floor and first floor off limits to women. For pedestrians it's hard to see her on the second floor. But what about a man in a building across the street? Who also lives on the second floor. So this is getting ridiculous. It's much easier to get rid of full hijabs or at least require full hijabs for men too. It would only be fair if they suffer from vitamin D deficiency as well.

There are numerous studies showing the problem. Here is just one article

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100503174026.htm - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100503174026.htm

Depending on where you live and the season more than just a few minutes are required. And you need enough of the exposed skin.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 01 August 2012 at 3:51am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

So you have a super-devout Muslima sitting by an open window for an hour to get the required sunshine. The face alone would not be enough. You need at least two arms without sleeves as well. On the street people walk by and they can see her face. Which is no problem for me. But a problem for the super-devout folks. Well, maybe we make the ground floor and first floor off limits to women. For pedestrians it's hard to see her on the second floor. But what about a man in a building across the street? Who also lives on the second floor. So this is getting ridiculous. It's much easier to get rid of full hijabs or at least require full hijabs for men too. It would only be fair if they suffer from vitamin D deficiency as well.

There are numerous studies showing the problem. Here is just one article

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100503174026.htm - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100503174026.htm

Depending on where you live and the season more than just a few minutes are required. And you need enough of the exposed skin.

 
Sahih International
O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful 33:59


Posted By: shamypnr
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 1:37am
assalamualikum brother/sister,

Islam has specific dresscode which has been narrated in many of the Hadith for men and women. For men the trousers/dress that we wear should be above ankles.(ISBAAL) What is the specific reason for Islam pointing out this to be above ankles?


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 3:29am
Shamypnr, the dress code is unfair. Men don't hide their faces and can take part in public life and they can be recognized as individual persons. Women have the same rights as men.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 8:43am

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Shamypnr, the dress code is unfair. Men don't hide their faces and can take part in public life and they can be recognized as individual persons. Women have the same rights as men.



Even men cover their faces in many countries. Bedouin Arab males also cover their faces, justv like the women. In fact, they cover the same area of skin as the women. They even cover their heads.








-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 12:22pm
This thread has begged the question for me;

Did not God design the 'laws of attraction', did he not make us to be one attractive to the other in order to procreate?  Did he make this design that it should be covered?  Hidden?  What did Adam and Eve do after they had sinned?  They covered themselves.

Just some thoughts.


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 4:32pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

This thread has begged the question for me;

Did not God design the 'laws of attraction', did he not make us to be one attractive to the other in order to procreate?  Did he make this design that it should be covered?  Hidden?  What did Adam and Eve do after they had sinned?  They covered themselves.

Just some thoughts.


Yup, covering ones body is something Adam and Eve started. Almost all cultures value modesty and covering oneself. Its interesting that up until a few decades ago, almost all cultures pretty much covered the same body parts, with slight differences. Even in the west men wore hats, women wore bonnets. Clothes were normally full sleeved, with full pants. Women wore long skirts or gowns. The same goes for Asian cultures like Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Indians etc. Look at their traditional garbs, very modest clothing.




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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 August 2012 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by Chrysalis



Yup, covering ones body is something Adam and Eve started. Almost all cultures value modesty and covering oneself. Its interesting that up until a few decades ago, almost all cultures pretty much covered the same body parts, with slight differences. Even in the west men wore hats, women wore bonnets. Clothes were normally full sleeved, with full pants. Women wore long skirts or gowns. The same goes for Asian cultures like Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Indians etc. Look at their traditional garbs, very modest clothing.



The people in Africa, and in the islands where the climates were hot all the time, did not, and I honestly think that this is where it began to seep into the culture, when people began to travel to these places and they saw that the men were inflamed with desire by these scantily clad natives.  When men started taking these for wives.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 August 2012 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Vitamin D pills with the proper dosage are expensive. Millions of the fully cloaked women can't afford to buy them. Sunshine is for free. All that is needed is getting rid of full hijabs.



Fulfilling religious obligations are not for people that live on excuses. Even accepting God as their creator can be a problem for them.
Human body is very capable of adjusting to environment and to food. Faith and trust in the fact that God has not put on us anything we cannot bear is a believer's best fulfilling source against any deficiencies, psychological or physical.
Take fasting for example: in other months when we (muslims) don't fast, I get thirsty very easy as my body needs a lot of water ( I normally consume 6-10 glasses of water) and if I don't drink water for a few hours I cannot function properly. This year we are experiencing Ramadan (fasting month)right now (July-August). In these hot days of South Texas when the temperature stays above 100F everyday, to not to drink a single drop of water during the day light heat and functioning normal is amazing, isn't it. Not only that, the books you read will tell you its not a good thing to do. But I, like many practicing Muslims have been fasting since I was little, I still am pretty healthy. In fact during fast, somehow (I call it with the help of Allah) the day goes better, my body seem to go through a natural overhaul because the blood pressure and heart beat reading come absolute normal, better than other times. All my senses seem to respond better than other times, not to mention many many other benefits. I can tell you that despite lack of any food or water intake all day (16 hours)all of that is amazing, isn't it?
I guess it all comes, when you truly believe, otherwise it can a burden hard to fulfill and can hurt you.

2:286 (Asad) God does not burden any human being with more than he is well able to bear: in his favour shall be whatever good he does, and against him whatever evil he does.


Hasan



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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 11 August 2012 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Vitamin D pills with the proper dosage are expensive. Millions of the fully cloaked women can't afford to buy them. Sunshine is for free. All that is needed is getting rid of full hijabs.



@Matt, For the record their are women who have low Vitamin D and they don't dress fully covered at all. So, is this really about Muslim women getting enough Vitamin D or do you have a problem with muslim women being fully covered? If you do have a problem with muslim women who dress fully covered what do you plan to do to muslim women who wears Hijab?

For the record, Many of us(including myself) fully cover out of obedience to Allah not because men tell us to.


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 11 August 2012 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


The people in Africa, and in the islands where the climates were hot all the time, did not, and I honestly think that this is where it began to seep into the culture, when people began to travel to these places and they saw that the men were inflamed with desire by these scantily clad natives.  When men started taking these for wives.


@Caringheart,

What are you talking about? Have you ever studied the real history of Africa? Do you know about Kingdoms of Africa such Kush, Nubia, Mali, Dogon, Songhay and Kemet(Egypt)etc? Did you know that these kingdoms had there own schools, writing systems, governmental structure and wore pretty clothing etc. Have you ever gone to Africa? Did you know in Ghana and Nigeria that the average temp is 80 degrees?


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 3:29am
Originally posted by Chrysalis

Even men cover their faces in many countries. Bedouin Arab males also cover their faces, just like the women. In fact, they cover the same area of skin as the women. They even cover their heads.


You're missing the point, Chrysalis. If the same rules apply for both men and women there is no unfairness. In windy desert areas protecting the face can make sense. In Germany when men and women drive motorcycles they both wear helmets. Inuit men and women protect themselves against icy winds covering their faces.

I'm talking about places like Cairo, Riyadh, Kandahar and London. Muslim men are part of public life and women are reduced to identically looking ghosts without an individual personality. And Allah sends them to hell if they don't obey their husbands. We won't have any of this in our Western countries and good Christian men and women will continue to fight for the rights of Muslim women in our countries. Our values count too. Muslims can't assume their values replace the values of everyone else.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 3:36am
Honeto, covering arms and the face is not fulfilling a religious obligation. A modest dress is all that is needed. And this can be a jeans and a t-shirt.

Let's take the situation in Western countries. A modest person does not draw attention to their own real or supposed accomplishments and desirable attributes. But Muslim women wearing full-body covers including face veils are doing exactly that. They are not modest. They are boastful telling everyone: Look, here, a member of the world's best religion.




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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 3:45am
Hakeema, I'm fully aware that there are two groups of women when it comes to wearing face veils. One group chooses to wear it and the other group is forced by their husbands to wear it. Just because you choose to wear it doesn't mean there are no women who are forced to wear it.

The vitamin D part is a side issue, though an important one. The key issue here is that Muslims don't respect non-Muslim cultures and dress codes when living in the Dar al-harb. And we people in the West are so foolish that we even tolerate intolerance. Allah hates us. Devout Muslims hate us and we say, oh, that's their culture and we have to respect different cultures.

We can't change the fact that women in Saudi Arabia and southern Afghanistan are treated like cattle. But we won't have any of this in Detroit, London, Paris, Madrid and Berlin. And that's not racist. That is defending values and our freedom and human rights.




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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne


The vitamin D part is a side issue, though an important one. The key issue here is that Muslims don't respect non-Muslim cultures and dress codes when living in the Dar al-harb. And we people in the West are so foolish that we even tolerate intolerance. Allah hates us. Devout Muslims hate us and we say, oh, that's their culture and we have to respect different cultures.We can't change the fact that women in Saudi Arabia and southern Afghanistan are treated like cattle. But we won't have any of this in Detroit, London, Paris, Madrid and Berlin. And that's not racist. That is defending values and our freedom and human rights.


@Matt
What are non-Muslim cultures and dress code?
Do you feel that the Muslims on Islamicity don't respect non-Muslim culture and dress code?
Do you feel that the Muslims that you met or congregated with disrespects non-Muslim culture and dress code?
Did you a interview Muslims living in non-Muslim countries to come up with this conclusion?
I am a African-American(black)muslim women living in the west who wear hijabs(not face veil)and fully covers her body. I CONVERTED to Islam by the way. I bother no one, never broken the law, and planning to go to medical school in the near future. It is many more Muslims in the west who are like me. So I would like to know how am I disrespecting the non-Muslim culture and dress code? Since I converted do you think I am showing disrespect to the west since it is not a non-Muslim country?

On your profile it says that you are Christian. Are there are things in your religion that is forbidden and frowned up which is considered OK in non-Muslim countries? If so, would you disobey your religion in order to follow the culture and dress code of non-Christian countries? Do you feel that Christians should be going into non-Christian countries to try to get people to convert to their religion when they have there traditional cultural religion? Do you find their actions disrespectful? As a Christian how do feel about what Christians have done to disrespect the cultural and dress codes of Africans, Native Americans throughout history?

Speaking of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. How do you feel about George Bush and many other oil company doing business in Saudi Arabia? How do you feel about the business relationship between the Bush Family and the Bin Laden family? What about the business deals done in Afghanistan? According to news reports U.S. companies invited the Taliban(before 9/11)to the U.S. to discussion business deal in building a pipe line through Afghanistan. How do you feel about that?





Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Honeto, covering arms and the face is not fulfilling a religious obligation. A modest dress is all that is needed. And this can be a jeans and a t-shirt.

Let's take the situation in Western countries. A modest person does not draw attention to their own real or supposed accomplishments and desirable attributes. But Muslim women wearing full-body covers including face veils are doing exactly that. They are not modest. They are boastful telling everyone: Look, here, a member of the world's best religion.


Good point Matt. 

It can not be considered modest if one is calling attention to oneself, no matter in what way it is being done.  Much like when Paul said, 'if it offends your companion for you to eat meat, then do not eat meat'... do not cause offense... consider the other persons position on the matter.  [paraphrased]

and I was thinking;

We must live according to the culture in which we find ourselves.

much as any non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia, or any country where Islamic law is enforced, must do.  They must not cause offense.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 2:10pm
@Hakeema
I imagine it depends how far back you go in African culture, and what tribes.  I did not mean to cause offense.  My main point was that as travel became more widespread cultures influenced one another, in good and not so good ways.  Wars are greatly responsible... sending soldiers away from wives for long periods of time and then coming upon beautiful, exotic, native women.  It has all had its influence, for good and for ill.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 2:23pm
@Nausheen,
I've only just read how this thread got started.  It has rather gone off track.  I think what you wrote and how you expressed your position was very well done.  I can see how this choice... as long as it is by choice... can be an empowering one.  I think the crux of the matter that people want to drive home is that very fact... it should be a matter of choice.  I do however still believe we must conform to the culture in which we live or we must move to a culture that is better suited... one that accommodates our desire if we can not find a suitable compromise in the culture in which we find ourselves.

Most people must conform since moving and uprooting, is not often an option.  Although thousands have been displaced from their homes on the continent of Africa, so it must not be entirely impossible.  By no means do I imply that it is a desirable choice, but

people throughout the ages have had to move in order to find freedom.

Even Muhammad recognized that if one must, then one must 'flee with his religion'.  It was apparently the prescribed solution.

I hope you are doing well,
Caringheart


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Matt Browne

Honeto, covering arms and the face is not fulfilling a religious obligation. A modest dress is all that is needed. And this can be a jeans and a t-shirt. Let's take the situation in Western countries. A modest person does not draw attention to their own real or supposed accomplishments and desirable attributes. But Muslim women wearing full-body covers including face veils are doing exactly that. They are not modest. They are boastful telling everyone: Look, here, a member of the world's best religion.
Good point Matt.  It can not be considered modest if one is calling attention to oneself, no matter in what way it is being done.  Much like when Paul said, 'if it offends your companion for you to eat meat, then do not eat meat'... do not cause offense... consider the other persons position on the matter.  [paraphrased]and I was thinking;We must live according to the culture in which we find ourselves.much as any non-Muslim in Saudi Arabia, or any country where Islamic law is enforced, must do.  They must not cause offense.


In looking at all the post I realize too that the post got sort off track and it led to talking about face veil. The article wasn't about the face veil was talking about hijab. I become a muslim before 9/11 and no one really care about muslim women wearing the face veil or Hijab. Afterwards it was a big deal. Just curious what the real deal is here. Why is was it made into a big issue when in the beginning when it was not? Is the problem really about conforming to someone culture or a front to hide some real inner feeling here?

For the record, The majority of muslim women don't wear the face veil in non-Muslim countries especially in the west in first place. There are some muslim women who don't wear hijab due to fear or wanting to conform. So why are you painting all muslim women as being boastful(not you Caringheart)when the majority don't wear face veil.
Secondly, why are you painting all muslim as disrespecting non-muslim culture and dress code due to a minority of muslim women who wear face veil?
Muslims in the west eat at McDonald's, Burger King, buy jordan and nike every day.
Secondly, there are many fast food restaurants in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries that are owned by the west. There are also clothing store from Europe and The west found in muslim countries that do not adhere to muslim dress code. In Libya Cinnabon is opening up a franchise over there. One of Khaddafi sons had a internship over here. Secondly, both of us sons studied over here in the west but everybody saying bad things about their father. There are also companies from Europe and the west that have been investing in raw materials from Saudi Arabia and other muslim countries. So, what problem do you really have?

As far muslim women who wear face veil:
What have muslim women who have choosen to wear face veil ever done to you personally?
How has muslim women who choose to wear face veil ever stopped you from doing what you need to do in your life?
Have muslim women who have choose to wear face veil ever stopped you from going to school, getting a job, or anything like that?



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 6:43pm
Hakeema,
I am going to give a frank and honest answer to your question, but not with the intention of causing offense, but I do realize it will be offensive to any good and righteous person... and sometimes truth is offensive.  But we must deal with certain realities.
In answer to your question, "Why is was it made into a big issue when in the beginning when it was not?"

Because... after 9/11 happened people became aware of Islam.  They never gave much concern to it before because no one ever thinks of a religion as being a threat and a danger.  After 9/11 that perception changed, especially when we saw people dancing and celebrating in the streets over the deaths of thousands, and these people were people governed by a religion called Islam.  I have never seen anyone celebrate killing like that, let alone a 'religious' people.
 
Because... in our innocence and trust we allowed these so-called Muslims to sneak into our country, take advantage of our teaching and resources, and use them against us.  No one wants to make that mistake ever again.  It is good to know who your enemies are, and Muslims seem to be taught that everyone who is not not one of them is their enemy.  (I do not see how this is a teaching from a God who created us all as His children.)  Someone who is not a follower of God may be a cause for us to guard ourselves against temptation, but he should not be considered an enemy, just a misguided one whom you have the opportunity to guide... not to kill.  The onus falls on oneself to put on the full armor of God by always being in His Word... strengthening self, not attacking others.

The world wants to know who our enemies are, and if all Muslims, by association with the religion of Islam, are enemies and a danger to the world.
In short, we do not trust Islam.  We feel that we have been duped by it once, and that is one time too many.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.  I'm just laying out the facts in answer to the question.


I don't think anyone has said 'all' Muslims.
[Edit:  except me, in this very post, because as I have explained to someone else... if you are not allowed to leave the religion once you say you are a Muslim, then you will belong to 'all' Muslims and required to do whatever your leaders tell you you must do in order to live.  This is what happened to the German people when Naziism took over.  They could not get out.  This is how armies are formed... on threat of penalty for leaving.  It is important to know what you are signing on for and pray that you are not duped.]

But to your other question about the threat of hijab.  I think Matt has explained, we like to be able to see a persons face, to see what is in their eyes, to see their smile or their sneer.  We want to see who we are dealing with.
I have earlier said that a hijab could easily be used to hide a man, someone wishing to hide weapons such as explosives... someone wishing to do harm.
The general public can feel safer without the hijab, and if that is the way they want it... for their own safety... that is how it ought to be.

This is my opinion,
Caringheart

I bear no hard feeling towards Muslims themselves.  I know there are many good Muslims, who also deserve their freedoms.  God created us free... all of us... even those with different beliefs.
I find it hard to trust Islam and its followers since it is practiced in so many different forms and no one seems to be able to come into one agreement.  I do not trust where this word of Muhammad comes from.  I am however reading the Qur'an and studying to get a better idea of what it is that people are obligated to follow when they call themselves Muslim.

May peace and enlightenment come to us all. Heart


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Hakeema,I am going to give a frank and honest answer to your question, but not with the intention of causing offense, but I do realize it will be offensive to any good and righteous person... and sometimes truth is offensive.  But we must deal with certain realities.In answer to your question, "Why is was it made into a big issue when in the beginning when it was not?"Because... after 9/11 happened people became aware of Islam.  They never gave much concern to it before because no one ever thinks of a religion as being a threat and a danger.  After 9/11 that perception changed, especially when we saw people dancing and celebrating in the streets over the deaths of thousands, and these people were people governed by a religion called Islam.  I have never seen anyone celebrate killing like that, let alone a 'religious' people.  Because... in our innocence and trust we allowed these so-called Muslims to sneak into our country, take advantage of our teaching and resources, and use them against us.  No one wants to make that mistake ever again.  It is good to know who your enemies are, and Muslims seem to be taught that everyone who is not not one of them is their enemy.  (I do not see how this is a teaching from a God who created us all as His children.)  Someone who is not a follower of God may be a cause for us to guard ourselves against temptation, but he should not be considered an enemy, just a misguided one whom you have the opportunity to guide... not to kill.  The onus falls on oneself to put on the full armor of God by always being in His Word... strengthening self, not attacking others.The world wants to know who our enemies are, and if all Muslims, by association with the religion of Islam, are enemies and a danger to the world.In short, we do not trust Islam.  We feel that we have been duped by it once, and that is one time too many.I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.  I'm just laying out the facts in answer to the question.

I don't think anyone has said 'all' Muslims.But to your other question about the threat of hijab.  I think Matt has explained, we like to be able to see a persons face, to see what is in their eyes, to see their smile or their sneer.  We want to see who we are dealing with.I have earlier said that a hijab could easily be used to hide a man, someone wishing to hide weapons such as explosives... someone wishing to do harm.The general public can feel safer without the hijab, and if that is the way they want it... for their own safety... that is how it ought to be. This is my opinion,CaringheartI bear no hard feeling towards Muslims themselves.  I know there are many good Muslims, who also deserve their freedoms.  God created us free... all of us... even those with different beliefs.I find it hard to trust Islam and its followers since it is practiced in so many different forms and no one seems to be able to come into one agreement.  I do not trust where this word of Muhammad comes from.  I am however reading the Qur'an and studying to get a better idea of what it is that people are obligated to follow when they call themselves Muslim.May peace and enlightenment come to us all. [IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />


@Caringheart,
Are you a white person? If so, should the same thing be said about white people in Europe and in the west? Many white people have entered(and still do) into many countries in Africa, the Americas and Asia where they were accepted but raped, robbed and killed non-white people all over the world. This also created the system of white supremacy to burst on the seen and it still affects non-white people worldwide.

When black African come to the Americas they weren't not allowed to practice their culture, traditional religion, or speak their own native language. Even today there issues with black who want to embrace some aspects of African culture. For example, in the corporate jobs in the west black people are encouraged not to wear their hair natural such as dreadlocks and afro. It has to be permed and straightened like white people hair. Gabby Douglas(U.S. olympic gymnast) hair was made of fun as well. She is also symbolized as animal as well. She called the "Flying squirrel". White people have always equated black people with animals as well. In regards to the Native Americans. They were also killed off, were not allowed to pratice their culture and they still being mistreated due to race. When I take off my hijab I am seen as a black person and have mistreated by white people due to the fact that I am not white. Osama Bin Laden have never called me nigger or mistreated me on the basis of color but white people surely have throughout my life. Recently in Wisconsin a white supremacist shot people in a Sikh Temple. Currently their are many white people who still harbor white supremacy ideas and today white supremacy is still practiced on a more subtle level. I notice that white people more are slick with practicing white supremacy. Ever since Obama has became president it has grown more and more. There are white people who are government officials who have made racist statements about President Obama and some have called out for his murder.   To this day there are numerous accounts of black people and other non-white being mistreated due to color. It also has increased since Obama has been president. So should I as a black person be suspicious of white people with the track record that white people have?

Also when Timothy McVeigh bombed the building in Oklahoma why weren't Christian white males look upon suspiciously. Most cerial killers have been white males as well so should white males looked at suspiciously?

Since you are a Christain can the same be said about Christians because the track record of Christians is still not clean. Do White Christians still teach black Christians that they are the curse children of Ham? Is the real color of Jesus being represented?

Speaking of 9/11 I am learning that the American government is not that naive. In many Hollywood movies the mention of the twin tower being blown up have been repeated wayyyyy before 9/11. Since it was mention in Hollywood movies somebody had to know something. If you go into Microsoft word and put a code in you'll find a star of david, a airplane, the twin towers and a skull and bones. I am gonna find that code and post it. So somebody had to know something. Speaking of 9/11 being done by muslims. I am wondering if 9/11 was actually done by muslims. I am wondering if this is the biggest blame non-white people that I have ever seen in my life. I do notice that non-white people, espcially black people have a tendency to be blamed for corrupt things in America. Secondly you stated that you saw video of Muslim dancing in the street after 9/11. How do you know if there were really dancing the street because of 9/11?

I mean the Bush family been doing business transactions with the Bin Laden family, and business transaction with the Taliban so a pipe line can be built in Afghanistan. Many white corporation in America and Europe always been investing in muslim countries for raw resources and building white owned franchise in those countries. So, y'all is not scared of muslims so don't bring that crap to me.


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 12 August 2012 at 9:35pm
Here is an example of twin tower explosions being mention in Hollywood. It is in the long kiss good night movie. There are many more movies and I will post them tomorrow. Now it mentions in the video clip of killing 4000 people but blaming it on the muslims. I remember people mentioning 4000 people were killed in the twin towers and who was blamed for that? Is it a coincidence that this was in a movie that was produced in 1996?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG9xfUdbH7c

Here is the Microsoft code. Type it in yourself. I type this in one in a year after 9/11 happen. At this time I had microsoft 2000 word. So somebody had to know something. Furthermore, there is a skull and bone symbol that represents a secret society that George Bush is part of that is on there. Why is that? What is the star of David doing on there? The number 33 shows up. The 33 is the high point in a secret society called Masons. Why is the number there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlq9e6UCXBY&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLho8yIciA1fjQjB4e6DSUZA

Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11. Here is the link. I was felt that something was not right about 9/11 his documentary opened my eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Juxs1n9qRe0


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 7:20am
Hakeema countries seeking trade and exploration/exploitation beyond their boarders, racism, injustice, and even slavery, are all attributable to mankind in general and not "white people" specifically, or exclusively.  To characterize it as such is patently unfair.  With respect to secret societies, hidden codes, 911 conspiracies and the like, our discussion board has a section entitled http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=82 - Conspiracy Theories .


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 10:17am
Originally posted by abuayisha


Hakeema countries seeking trade and exploration/exploitation beyond their boarders, racism, injustice, and even slavery, are all attributable to mankind in general and not "white people" specifically, or exclusively.  To characterize it as such is patently unfair.  With respect to secret societies, hidden codes, 911 conspiracies and the like, our discussion board has a section entitled http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=82 - Conspiracy Theories .


As-Salaam Alaikum Abuayisha,

I wasn't characterizing nobody. Caringheart, feels that she stills needs to be suspicious of Muslim(eventhough she met "good muslims") due to 9/11. I am asking her due to the fact I suspect she is white person. Should I as a black person be suspicious of white people with the track record that white people have in mistreating non-white people? Since we gonna talk about suspicious of others LET'S TALK, don't fake the funk with me. I am not gonna sugarcoated nothing. You can Abuayisha but I am not. So, it is a legit question. Like I said with all these business investment that is going on in these so-called rogue muslim countries the U.S. government and European really don't find muslims a threat. If so, they wouldn't be over there. They are not naive about NOTHING.

Mr. Abuayisha, I always wanted to say this too among muslims especially non-white muslims who are not black. It is shame that it had to take 9/11 for black muslim to get some respect from some of y'all. After 9/11 as-salaam alaikum sister, free soda from a muslim business before 9/11 no salaams or nothing no free soda from a muslim business.

Thanks for the Conspiracy tab. To many things don't add up and muslims(especially non-white muslims) shouldn't be blame totally for this. Innocent muslim(especially non-white muslims)catching hell because somebody is lying. OK I am done over here I'll be posting over there Abuayisha. Add something if you can?


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 11:01am
Well Hakeema, using your own logic, I would assume you are equally suspicious of a black person, because you have a greater statistical probability of mistreatment from black people assuming you don't live in an all white neighborhood, city and state.  I would hope that your only experience with the immigrant Muslim population isn't limited to small convenience stores. You may want to become involved at the Islamic Center and hopefully you'll acquire a better opinion of those referred to as "y'all" in your response.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 3:14pm
Hello Hakeema,
I see and empathize with what you have written.  Here are some of my short responses as I read.

I agree with you.  I find it abhorrent also, that the British seemed at one time, to think they could go anywhere in the world and impose their culture on people... seemed to think it was best for the world.  I find that to be arrogant and condescending... same as was done to the native Americans in America.  I know that it is wrong.  Note, they have gotten over it.   They have evolved... progressed... and do not go into others countries and  treat people this way anymore... as subservient  Let's hope that the world can remain like this.

I felt the same way you seem to, when they referred to Gabby as 'the flying squirrel', and I wondered, "How does she feel about that?"  To me it seems offensive... to a gymnast, maybe not?  I wonder though.  It does not seem appropriate to me, but I also think she has the confidence to speak up against it if she feels insulted by it, and it seems that she hasn't, so maybe it is accepted as a compliment... I don't know.  To me it is not a flattering remark even if it is meant(by ignorant people?) to be.

Regarding white supremist... they are also punished by law in the United States.  Can you say the same of terrorists in other countries?  (Just for comparison's sake)  I do not advocate white supremacy, or supremacy of any kind... including the supremacy the terrorists(or anyone else) seek to inflict on the world.

Regarding president Obama;
The arguments against Obama are his attempts to promote socialist ideas and set himself up as an autocrat, rather than the democratic leader, elected to serve the people, that he is supposed to be.

As far as prejudice against black... the pendulum has swung the other way and whites are facing prejudice in the community too.  Is your issue a Muslim issue or a black issue?  Do you think Muslims are more accepting of blacks?  What if you were to go live in Asia?  Do you not think Asian Muslims would be prejudiced against black Muslims?  Do black Muslims hold prejudice against other people?  It is not uncommon in the black community to hold prejudice against Mexicans.  It will not be until we get past this "one up-manship"... the need to always have someone lower so that one can feel better than... It is not unless and until this tendency in human nature can be purged that we will stop having prejudice in the world.  When we can all feel good about ourselves without having to be better than somebody else to do so.

"So should I as a black person be suspicious of white people with the track record that white people have? "
Aren't you?

I think after Timothy McVeigh we began to look on all people suspiciously.  It has taken away our feeling of security.  Anyone can be a threat.  I agree... it is easier to pick out a person who is different than a person who blends in, and that is unfair.

"Do White Christians still teach black Christians that they are the curse children of Ham? "
I have never heard of, or encountered, such a teaching.  A teaching such as that would have to be from some radical sect... and I'd like to say irrelevant sect, but I have lately seen, it is not wise to treat anything as  irrelevant.
Can you honestly say there is no prejudice in the writing of the Qur'an?
3:106 On the Day when (some) faces will be whitened and (some) faces will be blackened; and as for those whose faces have been blackened, it will be said unto them: Disbelieved ye after your (profession of) belief ? Then taste the punishment for that ye disbelieved.
Seems like a prejudiced comment of man to me... not a comment of God who created us all.
Doesn't the Qur'an itself refer to certain people as animals?
(http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/jew_apes.htm)
The worst thing about the Qur'an is the way it promotes prejudice and dissention among people.
(Rather than produce many quotes here on the forum, I refer you to read here: http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/quran-koran/no-discrimnation-against-black-people-in-islam/)

"How do you know if there were really dancing the street because of 9/11? "
Because they were proudly proclaiming it.

Regarding 9/11 and Hollywood movies... How do you know that Bin Laden did not get his idea from the movies?
Personally, I think it is prophesy playing out... doesn't matter who knew what or where they got the idea from... it was going to happen.

Government may not think they have reason to fear since they have all the inside information, but we are talking about the ordinary people who have been awakened to ask, 'What is going on in the world'... and isn't it always the ordinary people who pay the price when their government fails in its duty to the people?  In the United States people try to stay aware because they, in the past have always been able to exert effect and influence on a government when it was wrong.  It is how the country became free... it is how slavery was ended... it's how segregation was put to an end... by the power of the people to come together for a just cause.

Salaam,
Caringheart



Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by abuayisha


Well Hakeema, using your own logic, I would assume you are equally suspicious of a black person, because you have a greater statistical probability of mistreatment from black people assuming you don't live in an all white neighborhood, city and state.  I would hope that your only experience with the immigrant Muslim population isn't limited to small convenience stores. You may want to become involved at the Islamic Center and hopefully you'll acquire a better opinion of those referred to as "y'all" in your response.


"Well Hakeema, Using your own logic."

What logic are you talking you about? I was asking Caringheart a question based on her logic. Her logic is since some muslim attacked the twin tower muslims(even though she met good ones) should be looked upon with suspiciously. So I flipped the switch and ask her a question based on her OWN logic. This is not the first time I ask this question. So what are you talking about?

Do you agree with her logic? Do you feel that she should look at all muslims suspiciously?

Why should I look at black people with suspicion. When it is taught on a subtle level within this society and worldwide to automatically look at black people with suspicion. Due to this I've seen black suffer mentally which produces self-hatred of oneself. So why should I drink the Kool-Aid myself?

For the record I am part of an Islamic Center and I have met immigrant muslim. But I am not going to deny or stop talking about colorism that goes on in the Islamic Ummah. I know about the in subtle color caste system in India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and in other muslim countries. I know that black skinned Asians are frowned up in the Asian world among Asian muslims because they are not close to white. I know that there are black people who look like the average in black American living in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iran, Iraq and so-called other middle eastern countries. I know about the mistreatment that they suffer because they are not light or close to white. People from these areas have told me this personally and I have read about it as well. We also have discussed racism/white supremacy as well. Yes, when some muslim have immigrated to the west they bring that mindset with them. They look at me crazy and other black muslims crazy like they do to other dark people in their homeland. Like I said after the 9/11 wake up call the crazy looks stopped and received free soda from muslim establishments.

Secondly, I know about the popularity of skin whitening cream among Muslims which is a billion dollar industry among us. Which is really sad and it ain't really about getting rid of no dark spots either. I know the message that is in the commercials. I saw them with my own eyes. Usually the message is something is wrong with you because you are dark become white or light. I've seen the mental damage it has done especially to young muslim women. Some women have told me that it was hard to get married due to being dark skinned. It also have produced self-hatred among non-white but not black individuals as well and black people. I have influenced some non-white women not to use that stuff anymore. I feel that is fixation with having white or light skinned among non-white people as whole stem from the ideology of white supremacy but I could be incorrect.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 5:12pm
Do you agree with her logic? Do you feel that she should look at all Muslims suspiciously?
  "Osama Bin Laden have never called me nigger or mistreated me on the basis of color but white people surely have throughout my life."
 
I think such statements indeed cause suspicion, and send the wrong message to our American friends, family and neighbors.  Do I agree that she should look at all Muslims suspiciously? No.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 8:00pm
"Her logic is since some muslim attacked the twin tower muslims(even though she met good ones) should be looked upon with suspiciously."

Just to clarify... This is not my 'logic'.
As I said, I was making a simple statement of facts... realities.

Let me put it this way.
If you lived in an African village and some white people came and destroyed half your village...
Would you trust the next white person to walk into your village, or would you be concerned and cautious?  Maybe even downright hostile?

Reality is you would have a hard time trusting any white person who showed up at your village.


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 13 August 2012 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


"Her logic is since some muslim attacked the twin tower muslims(even
though she met good ones) should be looked upon with suspiciously."Just to clarify... This is not my 'logic'.As I said, I was making a simple statement of facts... realities.Let me put it this way.If you lived in an African village and some white people came and destroyed half your village...Would you trust the next white person to walk into your village, or would you be concerned and cautious?  Maybe even downright hostile?Reality is you would have a hard time trusting any white person who showed up at your village.


@Caringheart,

I asked you a similar question in regards to white people(plus I thought your were white) earlier and you never really answered them. Never mind, I have a deep feeling you knew what I asking and talking about anyway.








Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 01 September 2012 at 11:58pm
I wonder, has anyone ever considered the origin of the hijab?
Did it originate with Islam?

Wasn't it the common form of dress among women living in desert areas as a means of protection?
Mary, mother of Jesus, is always depicted with head covering similar to what the nuns in the Catholic church wear to this day.  All Catholic women, at one time, covered their heads to attend church services.  If Mary dressed this way it must have been a custom of the women in that area of the world for practical purposes, long before Islam, and Islamic law, came along.
The term Islamic law in itself carries with it some concern.  Didn't God say not to add to, or take away, from 'the Law' in Deuteronomy, which was given by Him?  The ten commandments.
"Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do."  These are the words Jesus spoke against the Pharisees.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 3:15am
Originally posted by Caringheart

I wonder, has anyone ever considered the origin of the hijab?
Did it originate with Islam?

Wasn't it the common form of dress among women living in desert areas as a means of protection?
Mary, mother of Jesus, is always depicted with head covering similar to what the nuns in the Catholic church wear to this day.  All Catholic women, at one time, covered their heads to attend church services.  If Mary dressed this way it must have been a custom of the women in that area of the world for practical purposes, long before Islam, and Islamic law, came along.
The term Islamic law in itself carries with it some concern.  Didn't God say not to add to, or take away, from 'the Law' in Deuteronomy, which was given by Him?  The ten commandments.
"Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do."  These are the words Jesus spoke against the Pharisees.
 
Caringheart,
 
Another point that you have a hard time grasping.
 
The order to cover the heads of the believing women is not new and it wasn't first made in the Holy Qur'an. Women covered their heads when they attended the Temple in Jerusalem and all pious women dressed moderately.
 
Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament...

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
 
As with everything else the Christians like to conveniently discard parts that they don't like and keep the parts they like. It's all about US and not about HIM.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

I wonder, has anyone ever considered the origin of the hijab?
Did it originate with Islam?

Wasn't it the common form of dress among women living in desert areas as a means of protection?
Mary, mother of Jesus, is always depicted with head covering similar to what the nuns in the Catholic church wear to this day.  All Catholic women, at one time, covered their heads to attend church services.  If Mary dressed this way it must have been a custom of the women in that area of the world for practical purposes, long before Islam, and Islamic law, came along.
 
Caringheart,
 
Another point that you have a hard time grasping.
 
The order to cover the heads of the believing women is not new and it wasn't first made in the Holy Qur'an. Women covered their heads when they attended the Temple in Jerusalem and all pious women dressed moderately.
 
Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament...

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
 
As with everything else the Christians like to conveniently discard parts that they don't like and keep the parts they like. It's all about US and not about HIM.


Actually, no Abu, you make my point.  It's not just a Quran'ic thing.   See, you always see me as an enemy, and I am not.  It was written in the old testament for women to cover the head so that they would not be tempting to the Nephilim.  As I mentioned, it used to be the custom in the Catholic church as well, and still is, for the brides of Christ, the nuns.

I actually did some research last night and it was very interesting.  You should go read/research.  Just Google origin of hijab.
Heart


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament...

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
 
But then, what does "covering" mean?  If we read a bit farther, to verse 15: "But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering."  In other words, as long as a woman has sufficient hair, i.e. if her hair is not shaved or cut very short, then her head is covered.


-------------
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 02 September 2012 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Even your St. Paul says this in the New testament...

1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
 
But then, what does "covering" mean?  If we read a bit farther, to verse 15: "But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering."  In other words, as long as a woman has sufficient hair, i.e. if her hair is not shaved or cut very short, then her head is covered.
 
This is the trouble with reading 'Ye Olde English' the proper meaning is 'the hair to be covered'. Read the whole chapter in context.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 03 September 2012 at 7:10am

There are eighteen different translations of http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/11-15.htm - 1 Corinthians 11:15 at bible.cc , and not one of them says anything like "to be covered".  There are indeed commentaries that claim it is not a sufficient covering, but they are embellishments of the text, not accurate translations.

And by the way, the context of this chapter is covering the head while praying or prophecying, not in secular life.  Also note that Paul is describing a custom prevalent in his time (see verse 16), not a requirement dictated by God.



-------------
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 11 September 2012 at 3:10am
Hakeema, I want women to be part of public life for many reasons, not just because it is a human right, one reason being that this makes world peace more likely. The Nazi elite was almost completely male and their evil ideology got more than 50 million people killed. Afghanistan under Taliban rule was completely run by men and I think it's no coincidence that Al-Qaeda's terror camps were set up there. Every woman wore the burqa and had to stay out public life and decision making. Girls were prevented from going to school. We all know what this did to the Afghan society. 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were citizens of Saudi Arabia, a country where 100% of women wear a niqab. Again, to me this is no coincidence. Both countries implemented a very conservative orthodox interpretation of Islam with a set of rules that considers Christians to be inferior and atheists to be heinous criminals. Are you really surprised that people in the West are scared of such world views? In more tolerant Islamic countries less women wear face veils. Western countries want to be friends with tolerant Islamic countries. And we want Muslim immigrants to be full members of our societies taking part in public life. This includes women.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 13 September 2012 at 12:32am
I think that's a point well taken Matt. I really don't have any problem with women wearing the hijab, or the burqua, ... as long as they are not afraid
to take it off at their discretion.

I mean, you are right ... it should NOT be a way to silence or diminish women in society.

I will say after spending the last month in Kenya, and a good portion of that in Mombassa where the Muslim population is very large. I found it quite interesting to see the various "levels of cover" all the way from a simple head scarf to full burquas.... but I noticed even the full Burqua women often wore
make up .... and some of those burquas were pretty stylish as well. And I'm
not joking.

I think to tell you the truth, those women seemed just as feminine as any other. It's hard to explain unless you spend some time around them I guess. Even when I was swimming in the Indian Ocean there were a few women in Full dress clinging to an innertube with their boyfriends.. ( quite an interesting sight)

The impression I got was that for the most part ... most of these people from the sub- saharan africans to the Indians and various muslims all seemed to get along no matter how they were dressed... everything seemed to flow fine...  ( except none of them could stand me !.. lol)

To bad it just cant be that way everywhere.




Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 13 September 2012 at 12:56am
Of course everything there is not exactly rosy ... with the actions of the El Shabab group now .. they search you everywhere with the metal detectors now.... 

Anyway ...  I have African friends in the Mombassa area who are not Muslim.. and to tell you the truth , a lot of those women as well like to wear burquas
as well at certain times even though they are not Muslim.... and its not because they are pressured in any way. But rather because the anonymity can create a bit of safety in that people will not always know when she is coming or going from her compound. In some of these countries there is a level of lawlessness and the police protection is not quite what we have here in the west. I think in many cases ... after having been there it can be a valuable tool for them. ...........  although i can only speak of my own impressions and I suppose that's all it is.

BTW.....  the last day I was there they did have some riots and a few Christian churches were set on fire....  so to tell you the truth its not all comming up roses there... 


Posted By: lady
Date Posted: 14 September 2012 at 1:13am

Hello Blake.  I lived in vinpingo, kenya from 2001-2003.  That city is twenty minutes away from mombasa.  I also have some of my best friends still living there. Anyway, I frequent mombasa at least three times a week.  I also wore the burqa as well there for that lenght of time.  Anyway, I dont understand why those nonmuslims would wear the niqaab?  I know when I was there and the nonmuslims were wearing the niqaab it was being they were pro......tutes. Sorry. but maybe things have changed.  Or maybe they were afraid of being viewed as a pro....t..e. because they were hanging around caucasians.  Anyway, yes alot of peace corps volunteers in kenya were labeling the niqaabi women as very feminine women.  To be honest with you they were saying that they were so beautiful. These were coming from chrisitian american men.

The christians and muslims kenyans  respected each other so much. They lived peacefully with each other for many years.  I did see a changed of how muslims and christians  kenyans viewed each other after 9/11 happened.
But I think that it is interesting of how people are so insecure with themselves  that they believe that one thing is oppressive with a group of people and purposely ignore that fact that thing could be liberating to the next person such as wearing the niqaab.
I have to remind myself sometimes that what judgement I put on others will come back to me.  If I do not accept someone for anything that does not cause harm to society or if I want to oppress someone with my my ideas  then i am aware that the person who gets hurt the most is me.  What you put in this world is what you get back, even if your ideas are not openly spoken.


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 14 September 2012 at 1:56am
Interesting post Lady.... well, you certainly spent much more time there than I did so you obviously got to know things a little better than I did.
  I stayed in Likoni .... not far after you take the ferry across the channel from the main city.

I thought it a little funny myself that they would wear the burqua ... but my friend said she does sometimes when she feels like it and so do others she knows.  They are Luuya tribe (sorry not spelled right) .... I guess to them they simply see it as another type of clothing and no big deal.
I rather like that outlook myself.

I think they were probably doing it more though right after 2008 when they had the post election violence. it got sort of bad right around their place at that time. I remember they had to barricade themselves inside as well.

But really though...after a short while seeing women in that type of dress seemed normal to me ....  and to tell you the truth ... you really notice womens eyes a lot more..... I mean as far as the expressions ..... so that sort of makes up for the rest of the body being covered up ...lol        I had no idea about the pro..t...ute  thing.   Really for the most part I do see very much respect between Muslims and Christians there. I really like Mombassa very much and hope they can continue to have that peace.






Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 September 2012 at 6:28am
Blake, how can you see makeup hidden by a burqa? Or do you mean niqab and eye shadow?



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Blake
Date Posted: 20 September 2012 at 9:46am
Sorry... I guess I confused the two Niquab and Burqua...  


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 09 October 2012 at 6:32am
The Hijab is a symbol of sex segregation. That is its main purpose. It is not about modesty. If it were, men would have to wear it as well.

-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 09 October 2012 at 8:26am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

The Hijab is a symbol of sex segregation. That is its main purpose. It is not about modesty. If it were, men would have to wear it as well.



People like you make me laugh who thinks they know everything. What do you say to the following verse from the Holy Qur'an and I will highlight the bit where Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells all believing women to cover up.

Sahih International

And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof
and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 October 2012 at 8:57pm
@Abu Loren,
One could say that Muhammad was sexist. 
If he spoke for God, then I guess that would make God sexist.  God who created Adam and Eve, naked in the garden.  *scratches head
It was sin that made Adam and Eve cover themselves.  Did God tell them to do this?

Now I am not saying that I am against modesty.  I am against anything that might tempt one to sin... to lust... as God did address in the ten commandments.  But I do not think God prescribed a dress code other than covering of the head, or hair, so as not to tempt the nephilim... but not to cover the face erasing all identity.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 10 October 2012 at 2:48am
Originally posted by Caringheart

@Abu Loren,One could say that Muhammad was sexist.  If he spoke for God, then I guess that would make God sexist.  God who created Adam and Eve, naked in the garden.  *scratches headIt was sin that made Adam and Eve cover themselves.  Did God tell them to do this?Now I am not saying that I am against modesty.  I am against anything that might tempt one to sin... to lust... as God did address in the ten commandments.  But I do not think God prescribed a dress code other than covering of the head, or hair, so as not to tempt the nephilim... but not to cover the face erasing all identity.


I'm not even going to answer you, I know I will be banned from this forum!


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 10 October 2012 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


I'm not even going to answer you, I know I will be banned from this forum!


Sorry Abu,  Truly.
I was just presenting the viewpoint that people could take.  I am able to see both sides of the issue, which you will see if you read my earlier posts in this thread.  I am asking Muslims to see both sides of the issue.
Heart


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 15 October 2012 at 8:15am
No human being knows everything, Abu Loren. I don't. I see forums as an opportunity for exchanging views. To me it's a very normal thing that other people have differing views. To me, like to many liberal Muslims in Germany, the Hijab is a symbol of sex segregation. Progressive Muslima in Germany don't wear it.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 15 October 2012 at 8:20am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

No human being knows everything, Abu Loren. I don't. I see forums as an opportunity for exchanging views. To me it's a very normal thing that other people have differing views. To me, like to many liberal Muslims in Germany, the Hijab is a symbol of sex segregation. Progressive Muslima in Germany don't wear it.



If I'm not mistaken the majority of Muslims in Germany are Turks and I wouldn't say they are progressive but I would call them 'Westernised Muslims'.

The verse I gave you is from the Holy Qur'an and not a hadith of the Prophet pbuh). God is telling all women who believe and fear Him to cover up. You can have your views however distorted they may be.


Posted By: hakeema
Date Posted: 16 October 2012 at 9:23am
As-Salaam Alaikum Abu Loren,

"Never Explain yourself to Anyone. Because the Person who Likes you doesn't Need it. And the Person who Dislikes you won't Believe it".

Understand what I am saying Abu Loren.

Hakeema


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 16 October 2012 at 9:33am
Originally posted by hakeema

As-Salaam Alaikum Abu Loren,

"Never Explain yourself to Anyone. Because the Person who Likes you doesn't Need it. And the Person who Dislikes you won't Believe it".

Understand what I am saying Abu Loren.

Hakeema
 
Wa Alaikkum As'alaam dear sis
 
The thing is we have to try and educate these infildils. Lol.
 
However rude and obnoxious they are.... Insha'Allah they will see the light and the Truth from the Holy Qur'an.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 October 2012 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

No human being knows everything, Abu Loren. I don't. I see forums as an opportunity for exchanging views. To me it's a very normal thing that other people have differing views. To me, like to many liberal Muslims in Germany, the Hijab is a symbol of sex segregation. Progressive Muslima in Germany don't wear it.



Matt,
those terms are not Islamic. The only term that describes a true believer is "Muslim". There is no other term that describes it. Progressive Muslims, liberal Muslims, moderate Muslims, extremist Muslims, those are product of western world's choice of words describing how it distinguishes between who they approve of and who they don't.
Only those who follow the Quran are Muslims in the sight of the one who sent it. Who is good in who's sight in this world we give them a different name but the reality remains what it is, in front of God. And that's what matters to a follower of the Quran, a Muslim.

3:114 (Y. Ali) They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 October 2012 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

@Abu Loren,One could say that Muhammad was sexist.  If he spoke for God, then I guess that would make God sexist.  God who created Adam and Eve, naked in the garden.  *scratches headIt was sin that made Adam and Eve cover themselves.  Did God tell them to do this?Now I am not saying that I am against modesty.  I am against anything that might tempt one to sin... to lust... as God did address in the ten commandments.  But I do not think God prescribed a dress code other than covering of the head, or hair, so as not to tempt the nephilim... but not to cover the face erasing all identity.


Caringheart,
you can see that in today's world how to dress up is one of the most important thing in a person's the daily life.
People spend a great deal of time and money toward it. I see sometimes ladies wearing three or four layers of tops one over the other, and still revealing all what God gave them as gifts.
Do you think that God will leave such an important item (dressing up) from the guidance He sent?
Not so. I, as a Muslim believe that every thing that was of any importance to us in our daily life God spoke of it.
How and what we eat, how we deal with others, likewise, how we dress reveals about who we are. Here in the West (now almost everywhere, as the Western culture is adopted by many) I see most of the people follow trends regardless of what they mean or represent. For example I see a lot of women walking around literally only in what was used not too long ago as nighties and bedtime cloths. Now people proudly wear what was only limited to the bedroom's privacy. Some ladies dress and proudly walk in public with cloths wore by movie whores and prostitutes only half a century ago or so. Does this trend ends anywhere? Some places in Western world already have naked women roaming free.
So I do not think Caringheart that God who wanted us to be rightly guided toward a good moral life will exclude such an important element of our life.
If your religion has missed to address it, it is not complete. If you have missed it, you need to explore it. It is there.
The reason that in Islam Allah addresses this issue is because Islam is a complete way of life. It guides its followers in every aspect of life. Those who follow it follow it for their own good.

Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 17 October 2012 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren


If I'm not mistaken the majority of Muslims in Germany are Turks and I wouldn't say they are progressive but I would call them 'Westernised Muslims'.


It was the Turks that were responsible for the establishment of the Ottoman empire.
Just something to think about.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 18 October 2012 at 4:04am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren

If I'm not mistaken the majority of Muslims in Germany are Turks and I wouldn't say they are progressive but I would call them 'Westernised Muslims'.

It was the Turks that were responsible for the establishment of the Ottoman empire.Just something to think about.


And what a waste the Ottoman Empire was?


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 5:21am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzUuKdfnRE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzUuKdfnRE

-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 5:30am
Miss Universe contestant tries hijab in Australia

%20 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_j4s06Nu7Y

-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 25 October 2012 at 5:35am
Non-Muslim Hijabi Youtuber "Gothmummi" on why she wears hijab:

%20 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fos2ydSmfkQ&feature=relmfu

-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 27 October 2012 at 9:12am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Hakeema, I'm fully aware that there are two groups of women when it comes to wearing face veils. One group chooses to wear it and the other group is forced by their husbands to wear it. Just because you choose to wear it doesn't mean there are no women who are forced to wear it.

The vitamin D part is a side issue, though an important one. The key issue here is that Muslims don't respect non-Muslim cultures and dress codes when living in the Dar al-harb. And we people in the West are so foolish that we even tolerate intolerance. Allah hates us. Devout Muslims hate us and we say, oh, that's their culture and we have to respect different cultures.

We can't change the fact that women in Saudi Arabia and southern Afghanistan are treated like cattle. But we won't have any of this in Detroit, London, Paris, Madrid and Berlin. And that's not racist. That is defending values and our freedom and human rights.


 
Dont have the patience to read thru everything. Was somewhat surprised this string has gone as long as 10 pages ...
 
Like this post very much, so wanted to comment.
 
1. There is another category of women, or rather a subtype - women who cover despite their husbands being against the hijab ... sad but true!
 
2. Are you sure you are genuinly concerned about us getting enough vit D, and not fooling us into exposing ourselves to UV irradiation? ... just kidding :)
Yes I know how important vid D3 is. But a very short period of sunlight directly on the bones is sufficient to make all the vit D3 one needs. Thank you for your conecers and reminders.
 
3. I dont understand what you mean by us not respecting other's dress code. If one is a hijabi - would she be required to appear in certain cultures without a head-cover in order to indicate she is being respectful of that culture?
 
4. Would you please explain what you mean by tolerating intolerance. I live in a non-muslim society and have non-muslim friends. I follow my religion and respectfully excuse myself out of certain norms/practices which would entail going against my religion. Im not sure how far this might offend others.
 
Want to know, do non-muslims really find it offensive if a muslim refuses to drink or dine with them due to their religion?
 
'Allah hates us. Devout Muslims hate us and we say, oh, that's their culture and we have to respect different cultures.'
 
Its really sad that you feel this way. And worse if you've picked this impression from muslims who you thought were devout.
 
What would you expect from muslims in order to bridge the gap and make our society more respectful and tolerant for all?
 
 
 

 
 
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 27 October 2012 at 9:51am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

If I'm not mistaken the majority of Muslims in Germany are Turks and I wouldn't say they are progressive but I would call them 'Westernised Muslims'.
The verse I gave you is from the Holy Qur'an and not a hadith of the Prophet pbuh). God is telling all women who believe and fear Him to cover up. You can have your views however distorted they may be.


Yes, you are correct. About 2.5 million are of Turkish origin. Some have chosen to become German citizens. You will find the full range of how seriously they take Islam. There are Muslims in name only. There are cultural Muslims who don't pray and don't go to the mosque yet keep elements of the culture and celebrate Islamic holidays. I know more about Islam than they do. Then there are liberal or progressive Muslims who know a good deal about Islam and who are smart enough to be able to understand the Quran and Sunnah with their proper historical context. Most of them are secular Muslims like about half of the population in Turkey. They respect laws made by elected representatives. They reject Islamic jurisprudence. The fourth group are conservative Muslims, who really believe that Islam is superior to other religions. They read the Quran a lot and often create a lot of trouble. Many boys are raised to become machos. Some don't respect female teachers. They threaten their sisters when they choose to have a German boyfriend etc. Some of these machos also consider German girls to be unclean and sluts. Often they are very arrogant and lazy and do poorly in school. The fifth group are the ultra conservatives and they think Islam is the greatest thing on Earth and everything else has little relevance. They despise the West, but appreciate the knowledge of German medicine. Funny. They always prefer German hospitals over Turkish hospitals or Arab hospitals. They disagree with many German laws, but don't say so openly. They would love to have the Sharia replace German laws. They dream that this might become possible in 30 years. The sixth group are the non-militant fundamentalists. They embrace Salafism and Wahhabism and other extreme forms of Islam. Their whole life revolves around the Quran and the Sunnah and they would like to create a world like it was in the 7th century. They even prefer roots over toothbrushes. The seventh group, which is a small group, are the militant fundamentalists. They hurt or kill people. Some attend schools in Egypt or Saudi Arabia and training camps in Pakistan and then come back to Germany.

So when you talk about the Turks in Germany keep in mind that this is not a homogenous group.

Whether God is telling all women who believe and fear Him to cover up is a controversial issue. It's all about interpretation. Why would God not tell men who believe and fear Him to cover up? That's illogical.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 27 October 2012 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by hakeema

As-Salaam Alaikum Abu Loren,
"Never Explain yourself to Anyone. Because the Person who Likes you doesn't Need it. And the Person who Dislikes you won't Believe it".
Understand what I am saying Abu Loren.
Hakeema
Wa Alaikkum As'alaam dear sis
The thing is we have to try and educate these infildils. Lol.
However rude and obnoxious they are.... Insha'Allah they will see the light and the Truth from the Holy Qur'an.


I can't think of anything more rude than talking about someone who is present in the third person.

Educating infidels? I wonder who needs more education here.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 27 October 2012 at 10:09am
Originally posted by honeto


Matt,
those terms are not Islamic. The only term that describes a true believer is "Muslim". There is no other term that describes it. Progressive Muslims, liberal Muslims, moderate Muslims, extremist Muslims, those are product of western world's choice of words describing how it distinguishes between who they approve of and who they don't.
Only those who follow the Quran are Muslims in the sight of the one who sent it. Who is good in who's sight in this world we give them a different name but the reality remains what it is, in front of God. And that's what matters to a follower of the Quran, a Muslim.

3:114 (Y. Ali) They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

Hasan


Hasan, I understand your desire for simplicity. But simple statements don't eliminate the complexity present in the world. What does it mean to follow the Quran? If it were that simple there would only be one school of jurisprudence, but there are several, because it is difficult to interpret the Quran and the Hadith. And there are Muslims who believe in the separation of state and religion (secular Muslims) and those who don't (non-secular Muslims). Which Muslim is the real Muslim?



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 27 October 2012 at 10:54am
Originally posted by Nausheen

 
 1. There is another category of women, or rather a subtype - women who cover despite their husbands being against the hijab ... sad but true!
 
>> There are Turkish parents who are against the Hijab in Germany, but their teenage daughters want to wear it because of peer pressure at school. In some schools in Berlin more than 80% of the students are Muslims. So if a girl doesn't wear a headscarf she might be called a slut.

2. Are you sure you are genuinly concerned about us getting enough vit D, and not fooling us into exposing ourselves to UV irradiation? ... just kidding :)
Yes I know how important vid D3 is. But a very short period of sunlight directly on the bones is sufficient to make all the vit D3 one needs. Thank you for your conecers and reminders.

>> It is a serious problem, otherwise medical journals wouldn't write about it.

3. I dont understand what you mean by us not respecting other's dress code. If one is a hijabi - would she be required to appear in certain cultures without a head-cover in order to indicate she is being respectful of that culture?

>> Face veils are considered offensive in Germany. They violate our dress code. Older Christian women sometimes wear headscarves to protect their hair. Nuns cover their hair.

4. Would you please explain what you mean by tolerating intolerance. I live in a non-muslim society and have non-muslim friends. I follow my religion and respectfully excuse myself out of certain norms/practices which would entail going against my religion. Im not sure how far this might offend others.
 
>> I tolerate tolerant people. I don't tolerate intolerant people. I tolerate Muslims who respect Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists, agnostics and atheists. I don't tolerate Muslims who don't respect Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists, agnostics and atheists. I tolerate people who vote for conservative parties when they tolerate that I vote for liberal parties. I don't tolerate neo-Nazis, because of their intolerant perverse ideology. I tolerate vegans, if they tolerate that I eat cheese. And so forth. You seem like a very tolerant person. You have non-Muslim friends. Well, there are Muslim fundamentalists who say that the Quran forbids them to befriend non-Muslims. There are several verses that are quite explicit about that. There are Muslim fundamentalists who practice Taqiyya, which mean they pretend to befriend non-Muslims to further the cause of Islam. They are intolerant of other religions. There are several people here on Islamicity who call me an disbeliever and infidel. This is the intolerance I am talking about.

Want to know, do non-muslims really find it offensive if a muslim refuses to drink or dine with them due to their religion?

>> Yes, if they are the hosts and the Muslims are the guests. We had Muslim guests in the past and we chose not to serve pork and there were plenty of non-alcoholic beverages. There was no problem. Many years ago my wife and I visited Egypt. When Egyptians invited us for dinner they would have found it very offensive if we refused because of our religion or world view. Some Germans are vegan extremists and they refuse to dine with people who eat cheese. Most people consider their behavior to be quite offensive.

'Allah hates us. Devout Muslims hate us and we say, oh, that's their culture and we have to respect different cultures.'
 
Its really sad that you feel this way. And worse if you've picked this impression from muslims who you thought were devout.

>> I was referring to verses in the Quran that are about the hatred of disbelievers and the fight against disbelievers (especially the late Medina Suras). I know that the vast majority of Muslims don't feel that way. But a minority of Muslims does, unfortunately. They think of Christians and Jews and atheists as being inferior and evil. They despise the West. They despise people who eat pork or drink alcohol or listen to music. They despise women, who don't cover their hair. They hate secular laws. They hate homosexuals and so forth. And they consider themselves to be devout Muslims. I know there are plenty of devout Muslims who disagree with them.

What would you expect from muslims in order to bridge the gap and make our society more respectful and tolerant for all?
 
>> Cancel the word disbeliever from the vocabulary. Stop talking about the Bible being corrupt and full of lies. Stop talking about the one true religion. Stop talking about superior and inferior religions. Start talking about my religion and your religion. My way and your way. Respect atheists. Respect Muslims who decide to leave their religion. Respect Muslim women want to marry a Christian man. Respect norms and values and dress codes of Western countries. Respect secularism. Give women all the rights that exist for men. End the silly dream of the whole world being ruled by Islam depicting it as some kind of paradise.  Appreciate a diverse colorful world full of mutual respect and tolerance.
 

 


-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 27 October 2012 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Originally posted by Nausheen

 
 1. There is another category of women, or rather a subtype - women who cover despite their husbands being against the hijab ... sad but true!
 
>> There are Turkish parents who are against the Hijab in Germany, but their teenage daughters want to wear it because of peer pressure at school. In some schools in Berlin more than 80% of the students are Muslims. So if a girl doesn't wear a headscarf she might be called a slut.
 

Im sure there may be 'young girls' who feel pressured to wear the hijab due to their social environment. I was mentioning a different category though - of 'grown up women' who can take mature decisions about themselves out of will and desire to please their Lord and draw close to Him through this act of obedience.
2. Are you sure you are genuinly concerned about us getting enough vit D, and not fooling us into exposing ourselves to UV irradiation? ... just kidding :)
Yes I know how important vid D3 is. But a very short period of sunlight directly on the bones is sufficient to make all the vit D3 one needs. Thank you for your conecers and reminders.

>> It is a serious problem, otherwise medical journals wouldn't write about it.
 

3. I dont understand what you mean by us not respecting other's dress code. If one is a hijabi - would she be required to appear in certain cultures without a head-cover in order to indicate she is being respectful of that culture?

>> Face veils are considered offensive in Germany. They violate our dress code. Older Christian women sometimes wear headscarves to protect their hair. Nuns cover their hair.
 
Thank you for the clarification.  A hijab is not a face veil. As far as I know, a face veil is not absolutely necessary, except in certain circles where it is said to be the dress code - and these circles have certainly not gone to Germany, so am sure they have not offended the Germans Tongue
I dont know what would be the middle way for those who live n Germany and want to cover their faces. When a society allows headscarf, I certainly respect them for doing so.

 
4. Would you please explain what you mean by tolerating intolerance. I live in a non-muslim society and have non-muslim friends. I follow my religion and respectfully excuse myself out of certain norms/practices which would entail going against my religion. Im not sure how far this might offend others.
 
>> I tolerate tolerant people. I don't tolerate intolerant people. I tolerate Muslims who respect Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists, agnostics and atheists. I don't tolerate Muslims who don't respect Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, polytheists, agnostics and atheists. I tolerate people who vote for conservative parties when they tolerate that I vote for liberal parties. I don't tolerate neo-Nazis, because of their intolerant perverse ideology. I tolerate vegans, if they tolerate that I eat cheese. And so forth. You seem like a very tolerant person. You have non-Muslim friends. Well, there are Muslim fundamentalists who say that the Quran forbids them to befriend non-Muslims. There are several verses that are quite explicit about that. There are Muslim fundamentalists who practice Taqiyya, which mean they pretend to befriend non-Muslims to further the cause of Islam. They are intolerant of other religions. There are several people here on Islamicity who call me an disbeliever and infidel. This is the intolerance I am talking about.
 
 I would not talk religion with anyone who does not want to discuss it. am aware of muslims who think its their right to present Islam to others, even when they are not receptive - well, there are ways of doing it without being offensive, rather we are specifically instructed in the Quran to present Islam to non-muslims in a manner which is appealing and attractive to them.
 
Interestingly Ive seen a kind of pushy attitude in Jehova Witness also. They come to my door with a pamphlet about Jesus once every two - three months. I dont know how to tell their entire group to spare my door - when I very well know that every new face who shows up every second or third month, know eachother.
 
Calling someone a disbeliever or infedel certainly wont attract them - I hope people are able to realize this.
 
 
Want to know, do non-muslims really find it offensive if a muslim refuses to drink or dine with them due to their religion?

>> Yes, if they are the hosts and the Muslims are the guests. We had Muslim guests in the past and we chose not to serve pork and there were plenty of non-alcoholic beverages. There was no problem. Many years ago my wife and I visited Egypt. When Egyptians invited us for dinner they would have found it very offensive if we refused because of our religion or world view. Some Germans are vegan extremists and they refuse to dine with people who eat cheese. Most people consider their behavior to be quite offensive.
 
I think if one is a host of a particular people who have religious obligations regarding food, as a good host it would be their duty to take care things. Im glad you took care not to serve pork of alcohol to your guests. I had once invited a hindu family where the wife said she will not eat any veg if I was going to prepare it in a utensil usually used for preparing meat. I went as far as borrowing pans from her to host their dinner Smile 
What I dont like is when people come to know I dont eat or drink a certain things, they ask me again and again if I would mind even a small quantity of it - since it has happened at times, I need to make sure poeple understand that I cannot or rather do not want to be lax.
 
Once someone asked me how do we know if we are served non-halal meat. _ there is no way of finding out about a cooked preparation, except that we believe there should be a certain level of trust and loyalty when friendships/relationships are involved. Because friendships/relationships are a two way street.  That is why I asked you this question - if am sure where Im invited I will not feel pressured to compromise my religious values is where  I would enjoy spending time dinning and talking. Otherwise I have to turn them down.
 
'Allah hates us. Devout Muslims hate us and we say, oh, that's their culture and we have to respect different cultures.'
 
Its really sad that you feel this way. And worse if you've picked this impression from muslims who you thought were devout.

>> I was referring to verses in the Quran that are about the hatred of disbelievers and the fight against disbelievers (especially the late Medina Suras). I know that the vast majority of Muslims don't feel that way. But a minority of Muslims does, unfortunately. They think of Christians and Jews and atheists as being inferior and evil. They despise the West. They despise people who eat pork or drink alcohol or listen to music. They despise women, who don't cover their hair. They hate secular laws. They hate homosexuals and so forth. And they consider themselves to be devout Muslims. I know there are plenty of devout Muslims who disagree with them.
 
Unfortunately there are people claiming self righteousness which in and of itself is offensive - not just to you as a non-muslim, but also to me being a muslim. I dont like anyone trying to find out if I pray five time a day.

What would you expect from muslims in order to bridge the gap and make our society more respectful and tolerant for all?
 
>> Cancel the word disbeliever from the vocabulary. Stop talking about the Bible being corrupt and full of lies. Stop talking about the one true religion. Stop talking about superior and inferior religions.
 
Have on occasions spoken about this with the non muslims.  We are not a walking quran, but some of us choose to be talking quran - that too only certain verses which place a pointer at the non-beleivers. 
The word disbeliever is in the Quran. The corruption of the bible and the mention of the one true religion is also in the Quran. We cannot erase/edit anything from there. However if we discuss it in proper light and with proper decorum am sure it will not sound as repulsive as it otherwise appears to be. Hope you agree and understand.
 
I know that the bible and the torah mention disbelievers and one true religion.
In the Quran the one true religion - is mentioned in context to the religion of Abraham. This is the same religion the Torah was sent to profess and the bible was sent to profess.
 
 
 Start talking about my religion and your religion. My way and your way. Respect atheists. Respect Muslims who decide to leave their religion. Respect Muslim women want to marry a Christian man. Respect norms and values and dress codes of Western countries. Respect secularism. Give women all the rights that exist for men.
 
 End the silly dream of the whole world being ruled by Islam depicting it as some kind of paradise.  Appreciate a diverse colorful world full of mutual respect and tolerance.
 
Thank you for this peice. I really appreciate it.  I do hope we work to achieve this as a global project. My mentor says we should never doubt in our ability to change and improve a human soul, so we should begin from within.

 

I have particularly learnt a lot from non-muslims who visit Islamicity, and continue to do so. It is hard to hate others after recognizing the faults within.

Hope we can contribute to an iota of change towards mutual respect and tolerance through these discussion boards.

Thank you. 

 

 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 30 October 2012 at 8:33am
Thanks for your kind reply, Nausheen. Yes, Jehova Witnesses are pushy people, and we do have them in Germany as well. I don't like their attitude and I disagree with many of their religious beliefs. They think they own the truth and everybody else is wrong. Not a good belief. To me there are many ways to find God and worship him. There are many co-existing spiritual truths.

Yes, encouraging you to eat something you don't want to eat is totally wrong. The problem is that some people fail to understand how this feels. Suppose American Christians travel to rural China where they serve plates of dog or cat meat. How would they feel about it? So next time someone encourages you to eat pork, ask them whether they would eat barbecued cats. This should get their attention.

Yes, that's the problem with fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Christians. They want to impose their thinking and behavior on everybody else, and that's wrong.

Yes, the word disbeliever is in the Quran. And so is the word slave. But the time after 632 CE when the Quran was being turned into its written form was a different time. Now we have 2012 CE and followers of dozens of religions are just a mouse click or a 3-hours flight away. It is our duty to find ways to get along with each other. If we aim at a more peaceful world, we should not think of each others as disbelievers, even though our beliefs are somewhat different. Accusing each other of believing in corrupted traditions doesn't accomplish anything. Slavery is cruel and wrong and has no place in our world today.

Of course we can debate theology. Of course Muslims can disagree with this or that in the Bible and vice versa. But we should do it in a respectful manner and words such as lies or corruption are just too strong. And they are also generalization. If you say that this or that part in the Bible doesn't make sense to you that is totally fine. And if I say that this or that in the Quran doesn't make sense to me that should be totally fine too. Then it's not a generalization like the statement 'the Bible contains numerous lies'. It is about exchanging personal views, and then disagreements are normal. Some of the most treasured values of people in the West include freedom of expression, pluralism and disagreements. Good debates are the fuel of progress. This is why almost all scientific and technological achievements come from people who have learned to handle disagreements. A good professor doing research wants to be challenged by his or her students.

I differ with some of Abu Loren's views. So, I would like to ask you, Abu Loren, just disagree with me and say so and why, but don't call me obnoxious.

I really appreciate the dialog too, Nausheen. Yes, we need a global project of people from different faiths to come up with strategies to end violence and poverty. We won't achieve this if Christians just stick to themselves and Muslims just stick to themselves. I love the motto, think big, but start small. Mutual respect and tolerance here on Islamicity is an important small step. I learned a lot from Muslims too and I keep learning.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: W.S.
Date Posted: 02 November 2012 at 6:44am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Thanks for your kind reply, Nausheen. Yes, Jehova Witnesses are pushy people, and we do have them in Germany as well. I don't like their attitude and I disagree with many of their religious beliefs. They think they own the truth and everybody else is wrong. Not a good belief. To me there are many ways to find God and worship him. There are many co-existing spiritual truths.
Isn't that how it is with every religion? Yours is right and all the other religions are wrong? From what I understand, this is exactly what Islam says. Other religions may not be as explicit about it, though. Also, Islam isn't considered a spiritual truth as much as the truth, I believe.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

And if I say that this or that in the Quran doesn't make sense to me that should be totally fine too.
 
The first human being having been made out of clay doesn't make sense to me. Reasonably, that should be fine since we know today that it's countless years of evolution that's behind you and me and the world we live in today. This is problematic for me.
 



Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 06 November 2012 at 7:00am
W.S., not every religion is as pushy as the Jehova Witnesses' religion. Believe it or not, most European Protestants, including ministers and bishops, don't think that they own the one and only one religious truth. They advocate the peaceful co-existence of differing spiritual truths. They reject the notion of 'my belief is right and your belief is wrong'. Most modern Catholics see it the same way, actually. Only the Vatican thinks they own the truth. They still live in the dark ages mentally. The German Pope is a complete failure and disappointment.

Yes, orthodox Islam considers Islam to be the only truth. But a lot of heterodox Muslims disagree with this view. They consider Islam to be a spiritual truth for them and therefore avoid telling everybody else that they are wrong. That's the way for a better future. The "only truth dogma" only leads to intolerance, violence and war. More and more Muslims want a peaceful 21st century and beyond and they realized how foolish it is to tell followers of other religions how wrong they are. More and more Muslims value independent thought and want to reform Islam. A good example of how this can be done is given by Irshad Manji.

Well, the 'clay hypothesis' of abiogenesis has not been widely accepted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith#Clay_hypothesis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith#Clay_hypothesis





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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: W.S.
Date Posted: 08 November 2012 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Yes, orthodox Islam considers Islam to be the only truth. But a lot of heterodox Muslims disagree with this view. They consider Islam to be a spiritual truth for them and therefore avoid telling everybody else that they are wrong. That's the way for a better future. The "only truth dogma" only leads to intolerance, violence and war. More and more Muslims want a peaceful 21st century and beyond and they realized how foolish it is to tell followers of other religions how wrong they are. More and more Muslims value independent thought and want to reform Islam. A good example of how this can be done is given by Irshad Manji.


I skimmed through the Irshad Manji-thread and she seems worth checking out, even if one wouldn't necessarily agree with everything she says. The more I think about it the more I wonder what this idea of a reform is about, and how she thinks it should be done. I realize it starts with interpreting different verses of the Quran differently than has been done before, and I know that there are verses that are already being interpreted differently by various scholars today. But most of the basic meanings of the Quran are pretty clear, are they not?
 
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Well, the 'clay hypothesis' of abiogenesis has not been widely accepted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith#Clay_hypothesis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith#Clay_hypothesis


But then again, if one's imaan if strong enough, Man might've been made from clay or wood or whatever. Be, and it is, you know.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

The Hijab is a symbol of sex segregation. That is its main purpose. It is not about modesty. If it were, men would have to wear it as well.
 
Did you read Nausheen's initial post?


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 November 2012 at 10:50am
About time this thread is closed, isn't it?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 08 November 2012 at 11:15am
Why close it?  There are always new people coming with new and interesting things to say. Smile


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 08 November 2012 at 11:16am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Why close it?  There are always new people coming with new and interesting things to say. Smile
 
Well the original topic was lost after the first page or so.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 12 November 2012 at 6:38am
W.S., yes I read her initial post, although that was a couple of months ago, I think.

Irshad Manji's ideas should be discussed in a separate threat. I just finished reading here 2004 book. Very impressive.

What exactly lies within the scope of the 'basic meanings of the Quran'? But that might be a different discussion too.

I agree with Abu Loren, this thread is about the hijab. But it shouldn't be closed.






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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 22 April 2013 at 7:00pm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/12/19/f-niqab-list.html -


Posted By: proud2bmuslim
Date Posted: 03 May 2013 at 1:05am
Assalamalaikum...
Agreed with nausheen., i am a graduate engineer working for a govt co. in electrical field. apart from office work i'l happen to go out at site (power stations)and examine the work, troubleshoot the electrical system faults etc. and under such circumstances i really feel so very comfortable about myself, my attire clad in burqa, that i can do all the work with much ease(even if at times i have to climb upon a 150MVA power transformer) as compared to my other female counterparts who are without burqa. for a girl to protect herself from the gaze of non-marhams, the most perfect dress that she can wear is burqa. now my non- muslim friends too say that it is the best thing what i wear and one of my colleagues has also adopted the habit of wearing a scarf outside, what ever personal reason she has. In Islam, a girl is given all the freedom, but she should knw her boundaries and stay within. then it is healthy for both the sexes to protect their chastity.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 May 2013 at 9:51am
Where's Nausheen?

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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: proud2bmuslim
Date Posted: 22 May 2013 at 7:32am
Dear Mattbrowne, nausheen is the one who has started this thread


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 07 June 2013 at 3:47am
Originally posted by proud2bmuslim

Dear Mattbrowne, nausheen is the one who has started this thread


That's not an answer to my question. I was wondering whether she has left the forum, which would be a pity. I admire her intellect. Here's her data:

Online Status:     Offline
Joined:     10 January 2001 at 5:30pm
Last Visit:     12 February 2013 at 12:24am



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 26 June 2013 at 6:10pm
Hello Matt,

My visits are quite sporadic. Im not sure If I make a come-back and then leave or its just that - sporadic.

Thank you for your comments.


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 June 2013 at 11:51pm
It's funny that this thread came up today because I had just written on this topic as I was thinking about another thread on another forum.

Veiling

It was for the protection of women during Muhammad's time.  Should women have to protect themselves this way?  Or shouldn't men be able to become more civilized?

I can't imagine never being able to enjoy the feel of the warmth of the sun on my skin... or the breeze as it cools the skin.

I can't imagine in Malaysia, where it is 100 degrees... and other desert regions... having to be all covered like that.

That's just what I was thinking.  A man had made a comment on another forum about how the women in the west do not veil, and said it as a slur against them, as though it somehow speaks to their purity... and it had me thinking about veiling, and the different standards in the muslim world that there are for men vs. for women.  Women are expected to be pure and veiling gives this impression, but how true is this impression?  And what about the men, how much do they value their purity?  Do they hold themselves to the same high standard as they hold their women?  Are muslim men and women really any more pure than those in the west?  I don't think so.  I think a lot of muslim reverts are such because they are trying to escape their sinful pasts.  I think we are all subject to sinful natures in a sin filled world.  It's just that in the west it is no longer hidden... less hypocrisy.
(This all came up because of a discussion about mutah.)


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Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever



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