WHO IS OR WHAT THE COMFORTER? (FOR KISH)
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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22529
Printed Date: 19 May 2013 at 11:35am
Topic: WHO IS OR WHAT THE COMFORTER? (FOR KISH)
Posted By: truthnowcome
Subject: WHO IS OR WHAT THE COMFORTER? (FOR KISH)
Date Posted: 24 January 2012 at 8:16pm
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Originally posted by Kish
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Originally posted by truthnowcomes Don’t even try that here! THIS IS A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF INFORMATION ON THIS FORUM!
Jesus’ message was to inform his followers of the prophet who will come after
him with all the truth, this is what he [Jesus (S)] said: Hostile are we? I believe you are better off just sticking to your Quran for now. The Quran was produced in Arabia for Muslims; it is the first book for Muslims. Its appeal is to the preferences and prejudices of the Arabs, that’s it. Jesus never, never, never, ever said the ‘spirit of truth’ is a person, every Jew and Christian knows that! If you really feel confident on this subject I suggest you open up a new thread on this matter that Muslims have been misinformed by their Imams, believe me I personally know. The ‘only’ prophets Jesus said will come after him will be FALSE PROPHETS! ANYONEANYONEANYONEANYONE Most of what they new were thought to them and it became “believes”. There is a BIG difference between “believes” and “truth”! Christians believe that 1+1+1 =1; they also believe drinking ‘BLOOD” is Sin and EVIL; yet they drink Jesus’ blood and eat his flesh like cannibals and with the note, if you ask them the religion that kills human and drink their blood is it An Evil religion they would say YES! But yet they believe it.
I AM NOT SURE OF THEIR BELIEVE KISH, I THINK THE DISCIPLES KNEW OF HIM: It was conformed in http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1jo+4%3A1§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=1jo%204%3A1&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=4&ncc=4 - Ø “Beloved, believes not every SPIRIT, but tries the SPIRITS whether they are of God because many false PROPHETS are gone out into the world.” http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1jo+4%3A1§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=1jo%204%3A1&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=4&ncc=4 - Now, let us look at this statement, “believe not every spirit”. How do we “believe”? We cannot believe if we do not hear, correct? We have to hear to believe. Now, the verse continues: “but try the spirits whether they are of God” How do we try the Spirit? By questioning him, and that is not my opinion, V.2 conforms it: “2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:” The Spirit has to “confess” and if he “confesses” that would mean we have to listen to him. Now, let us go back to V.1 it says: “because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” Why “gone out into the world”? Because, “into the world” you have to go and look! And what you have to look for? It says: “Because many false prophets are gone out.” The opposite of false prophet is what? True Prophet!!! Conclusion: John is saying, go out into the world and look for a true prophet with the true spirit. And how do we know him? V.2 Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. The Prophet with the True Spirit will have to confess that Jesus (S) come in flesh!
CONFESSIONED OF THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH To have a better understanding we have to begin with the book of John. It is mentioned in John.1:1 “in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” If the word “was” God and the word was “with” God in the literal sense, it would mean that there are two Gods! In the Biblical language, the term “god” is used metaphorically to indicate power. Paul referred to the DEVIL as god. Ø In whom the “god” of this world hath blinded the mind of them which believe not... (2Corinthiants4:4) Moses (S) also referred to as god: Ø “And the Lord said unto Moses, see I have made thee a ‘god’ to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%207:1&version=9 - ) Which word was “with” God in the beginning? For us to know we have to go to the beginning. It mentioned in the beginning: Ø “And God said, let there BE light: and there was light”. (Genesis.1:3) (Brackets added in verse) So which word was with God? BE! And that is the word he used to create all things, and that word He used to create the life: “...And the life was the light of men, and the light shineth in darkness (man) and the darkness (man) comprehended it not”. (John.1:4-5) How he did it? Quran tells us: Ø “When He (Allah) hath decreed a matter, He but said to it, BE and it is!” (Q.3:47) The life or the light is a real fire burning inside of man. Why when we breathe in oxygen we breathe out carbon dioxide? It is the light in us that burns. Ø That was the true light, which lightest every man that come into this world. (John.1:9) Ø And the word (BE) was made flesh, and dwell among us. (John.1:14)
How the word was made flesh? Only the Qur’an gives the answer: Ø Behold! The angel said: O Mary! Allah giveth thee Glad Tidings of a word from Him: His name will be (Isa) Christ Jesus, the son of Mary...She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" Allah createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a matter, He but saith to it BE, and it is! (Q.3:45-47) And the word “BE” was made flesh and dwell among us. Ø Here by know ye the Spirit of God: Every Spirit that comfesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1John%204:2&version=9 - - 1John 4:2 ) Who confesses that? Muhammad (S), He (S) was that True Prophet with the Spirit of Truth! Allah (S) mentioned in the Qur’an: “Verily this is a revelation from the Lord of the world: With it came down the SPIRIT OF FAITH and TRUTH (Rooh-ul-Amin). To thy heart.” ( http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/026.qmt.html#026.193 - - Q.26:192-194 )
HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME Jesus (S) said: Ø “When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which Proceedeth from the Father, he will testify of me.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:26&version=9 - - John 15:26 ) It is mentioned in the Qur'an: Ø people of Book! Commit no excess in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His word (BE), which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messenger. Say not "trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is one God: Glory be to Him. (Q.4:171) Jesus was a MESSENGER of Allah, a WORD from Allah and a SPIRIT proceeding from Allah. “...He shall testify of me.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:26&version=9 - - John 15:26 ) Ø The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, BE And he was. (Q.3:59) The truth [comes] from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt. (Q.3:60) Allah (S) said: Ø "If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after [full] knowledge hath come to thee, Say: 'Come! Let us gather together, our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray. And invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!'" (Q.3:61) TNC ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Replies:
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 25 January 2012 at 8:19pm
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Originally posted by truthnowcome
“And God said, let there BE light: and there was light”. . . So which word was with God? BE! (Genesis.1:3) My friend, the definition for ‘be’ is - to take place; happen; occur: look it up in the dictionary, how else would you be able to see anything from earth. So God said let there BE light. The sun, the moon, and the stars were now made “to shine upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:17) Originally posted by truthnowcome
It is mentioned in John.1:1 “in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” What Muhammad failed to grasp was the ‘word.’ Who was the ‘word’ or lo’gos that was with God in the beginning, it was Jesus! When God said ‘let us’ make man in our image Geneses 1:26 he was referring to Jesus. Originally posted by truthnowcome
Conclusion: John is saying, go out into the world and look for a true prophet with the true spirit. And how do we know him? V.2 Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. The Prophet with the True Spirit will have to confess that Jesus (S) come in flesh! This scripture would pose a problem with Muhammad/Muslims because they don’t believe Jesus is a god and came in the flesh. So no way would this be Muhammad. Originally posted by truthnowcome
“When He (Allah) hath decreed a matter, He but said to it, BE and it is!” (Q.3:47) Muhammad and his angel put emphasis on the wrong word which is why the angel is not from God. Why I say this? Because as you said “And the word (BE) was made flesh, and dwell among us.” (John.1:14) Again, ‘word’ should have been emphasized not ‘BE’ the ‘word’ was and still is Jesus. Then you said . . . Originally posted by truthnowcome
How the word was made flesh? Only the Qur’an gives the answer: How only the Quran gives the answer when you quoted John by saying “And the word (BE) was made flesh, and dwell among us. (John.1:14) which was written before the Quran? Originally posted by truthnowcome
Here by know ye the Spirit of God: Every Spirit that comfesseth that Jesus Christ is come in flesh is of God. (1John 4:2) Do you believe that Jesus is of God which we as Christians already know and that salvation is only through him? Isaiah prophesied in the OT by saying . . . Isaiah 62:11 - Look! Jehovah himself has caused [it] to be heard to the farthest part of the earth: “Say, YOU people, to the daughter of Zion, ‘Look! Your salvation is coming. Look! The reward he gives is with him, and the wages he pays are before him. Apostles in NT harmoniously confirms what Prophet Isaiah in OT says . . . John 17:3 - This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ Acts 4:12 - Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved. Originally posted by truthnowcome
Jesus (S) said: “When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which Proceedeth from the Father, he will testify of me.” (John 15:26 ) If Jesus is talking to his father he must then be the son. But, of course Islam does not teach that so this most certainly cannot refer to Muhammad, correct, Islam has no father in heaven. So my question is, was this “helper/comforter” a book, a person, or something else? And when was he going to send it? %20 - ------------- |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 27 January 2012 at 3:23am
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Quran give the answer and it tells you why: “When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): “Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?” They said: “Yea! We do testify!” (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: “Varily, we have been unaware of this” Or lest ye should say: “It was Our fathers before us may have taken false gods, but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt Thou then destroy us who took others as partnesrin worship along with Allah, and we were (merely their) decendants after them; will you then destroy us because of the deeds of men?” Al-A'raf (The Heights) 7:172-173 After creating all the children of Adam Allah made them testified of his Lordship so when they would be sent to earth and return tare will be no excuses on the Day of Judgment, even if they say they parents take false god and they follow them.
Nothing new it is in the book of revelation: John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; V.5 “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness… http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:4-5&version=9 - - Rev.1: 4 -5 Jesus (S) was back there in the “beginning” as a “faithful witness”.
He also testifies of Muhammad (S) back there when he was on earth: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man which is ‘IN’ heaven.” http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+3%3A13§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%203%3A13&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=3&ncc=3 - - John 3:13 (KJV) Jesus (S) was the Son of man “ON” earth and he spoke about “another” Son of man, which is “IN” heaven. That “son of man which is still in Heaven in the other Comforter to come. It is also in the OT, Prophet Solomon is reported in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%208&version=31 - (NIV) to have said: "22 The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, According to http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job%2038&version=31 - and 21 (NIV), God addresses Prophet Job as follows: "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. 5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? 21 Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years! Why we do not remember what happen in the beginning? Allah (S) tells us in the Noble Qur’an: By the time, verily Man is in lost, except such as have faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual enjoining of truth, and of patience and constancy. (Q.103:1-3) By the passing of time: Time begins with Allah’s (S) creations and we were created in the beginning to witness the one true Creator Allah (S) before we were place here on earth. We then become forgetful and ungrateful of the Creator Allah (S), we are in a state of lost or forgetfulness by the passing of time, and to get back there we have to put our trust and have faith in Allah (S) by following His reminder (The Qur’an and the prophet’s (S) Sunnah) Allah (S) said:“Butwhosoever turns away from My Message (Dhikr), verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Judgment. He will say: "O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?" (Allah)) will say: "Thus didst Thou, when Our Signs came unto thee, disregard them: so wilt thou, this day, be disregarded." 20:124-26 (Y. Ali)
Don’t try that, Mr. Kish! The “us” is “royal plural” and the Jews knew that; it is the Romans who give it that interpretation, try again!
TNC ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 27 January 2012 at 9:24am
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Originally posted by truthnowcomes
Allah (S) gives the answer in the Quran that he was the word, meaning: he was created in flesh with the word “Be”. Perhaps you did not understand what you read so here it is again . . .Geneses 1:14 http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/NT43JHN01.htm - The Word was made flesh So the answer was ALREADY FIRST GIVEN in the (OT) Bible 600 years before the Quran to the Apostle John even before he wrote the book of Revelation, sorry to be the one to break the news to you! What was new to Muslims is not to Christians; this has always been the case. Muhammad is trying to reinvent the wheel all over again! That is why we know it could not have been the angel Gabriel giving the messenger this information; it was already said and done. We know Jesus is the ‘faithful witness’ but we also know salvation is only through Jesus as the Apostle John also said which Muslims do not accept. Submitting to some of God’s message through John is unacceptable; Jesus is the Messiah the ‘son of God’ as foretold by many of the prophets before John, centuries in advance! Originally posted by truthnowcomes
The “us” is “royal plural” and the Jews knew that; it is the Romans who give it that interpretation, try again! Okay, plural, so we agree he was speaking to someone other than himself. But still, there was no Jew, Roman or Greek at the time of Moses writing Geneses so this has nothing to do with the Romans. Here it is again - Gen 11:7 Come now! Let us go down and there confuse their language that they may not listen to one another’s language. Originally posted by truthnowcomes
Ø I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which Proceedeth from the Father, he will testify of me.” (John 15:26 ) Don’t interpret this thing Mr. Kish! How else would you interpret it, it mentions 'from the father?' Who's father, Jesus. DON'T you miss-interpret it! So I repeat . . . Originally posted by kish
this scripture would pose a problem with Muhammad/Muslims because they don’t believe Jesus is a god and came in the flesh. So no way would this be Muhammad. In that scripture it says Jesus' father will send him the 'Spirit of Truth!' Got cha!!!! [IMG]smileys/smiley9.gif" align="middle" /> Originally posted by truthnowcomes
Jesus (S) is “no God”; you yourself attest to that: No, Muslims do not believe that Jesus is a god Christians like myself do! Here is my quote again, stop trying to put words in my mouth, it’s unbecoming of you. Originally posted by kish
Do you believe that Jesus is of God which we as Christians already know . . So you are wrong by saying ‘I attest to that’ Originally posted by truthnowcomes
You see that, just as the Qur’an says, to believe in the “only one true God” and the “one who was sent by him (the only one true God).” Okay, but the Bible said that long before the Quran did, why is the Quran trying to take credit for what was said? The Q did not reveal it first! Are you following your Quran when it says . . . Q 3:84 - Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: Q 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Originally posted by truthnowcomes
You see that, just as the Qur’an says, to believe in the “only one true God” and the “one who was sent by him (the only one true God).” Yes! I believe the whole Gospel of John which the Quran is again quoting from, right? But, Muslims pick and choose what fits; the Bible was never tailored to fit Islam and never will. The problem that Muslims are having is trying to tailor the Q to fit the Bible, it will never happened! That is like putting the cart before the horse or an egg before the chicken, it is not possible, logical and reasonable. Have you ever saw a cart ahead of a horse? If you have which I’m sure you hadn’t you would think something is seriously wrong wouldn’t you? That is exactly what Muhammad did in his Q Originally posted by truthnowcomes
GOT YA HERE! Now you agree that the Qur’an agrees with the NT! Not by a long shot. It acknowledges the NT; there is a difference in the two words. If the Q agrees with the NT it would not pick and choose it would agree with the whole NT which it does not. Originally posted by truthnowcomes
The difference is the Romans' interpretation is "God come in flesh" where as the word “Be” that were back there in the “beginning” was used to created Jesus (S). Regardless, the Gospel agrees that the “word” in Geneses is Jesus and Jesus came in the flesh according to the Apostle John! The Apostle Paul also agrees . . . “He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15) So you are incorrect by putting the emphasis on “Be” The emphasis is on “word” who was Jesus according to John 1:1 and even you admitted to that. The bottom line is that you and I agree that Jesus was there in the beginning with God and that God did not send himself. But this thread is on who is the comforter so I’ll quote the question again because you didn’t respond to it. . . Originally posted by kish
. . . was this “comforter” a book, a person, or something else? Also, as you said - Originally posted by truthnowcomes
Ø I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which Proceedeth from the Father, he will testify of me.” (John 15:26 ) Who is the father mentioned here, and who will the father testify for? I look forward to your answers TNC. ------------- |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 28 January 2012 at 7:55pm
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He is the “image” of the invisible god and “not” the invisible god! Adam (s) and eve was “created” in the “image” of the same invisible God also: 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1: 27
Peter testimony when address the Jews: Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approve of God” among you by miracles and wonders and sign, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you your self also know” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ac+2%3A22§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=ac%202%3A22&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=ac&ng=2&ncc=2 - ) And Jesus (S) said: "I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2013:16&version=9 - - John 13:16 ) Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207:16&version=9 - - John 7:16 ) “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:49&version=9 - - John 12:49 ) “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” (John.5:30) Again, one who is sent with a message is a “messenger” and not God.
And who is Jesus (S) Father? Jesus (S) said: Ø “…Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:16-17%20&version=9 - - John 20:16-17 AKJV)
According to him, his Father is “OUR GOD and HIS GOD; He has a GOD, He said: “MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” And the following verse he declared that he is not good only God is good, in reply to someone he (S) said to him: "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:18&version=9 - )
Kish you have to wake up from your dream; you are worshiping a man god who has also a supreme and invisible God.
I don’t think you believe the bible; what you believe in the “interpretation” of your bible. Your bible clearly stated that Jesus (S) was a “CREATION” OF THE “INVISIBLE GOD” AND STILL YOU SAY HE IS GOD. He was “CREATED” from the word “be” in the “BEGINNING” and also he was “CREATED” IN FLESH with the word “be” that is why the scripture address him as “a word” from Allah (S).
I did, but you just read John and ignore the rest of information related in context of “creation”; that is why you arrived with the Romans’ interpretation” of a “man god”. The above proof is an example. TNC ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 28 January 2012 at 8:03pm
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Habakkuk tells us who will bring SALVATION: Ø …And the Holy One from Mount Paran (Arabia). Se-lah His Glory covered the heaven, and the earth was full of his praise. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk%203:3-16&version=9 - ) Who is this Holy one from Mount Paran? It is mentioned in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2021:21&version=9 - Ø “And he (Ishmael) dwelt in the wilderness of Paran.” And Muhammad (S) is the descendant of Ishmael’s. The Holy one from Mt. Paran message is Universal: Ø He stood and measured the earth: he beheld and drove asunder the nations…“His way are everlasting”. (Habk.3:6) The Holy One from Mount Paran [Muhammad (S)]; he brought "SALVATION": Ø ...at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Thou didst tresh the heathen in anger. Thou wentest forth for "SALVATION" of thy people, even "SALVATION" for the "ANOINTED”… (Habk.3:11-13KJV) Anointed: The second coming of Jesus (S) it to establish what the Holy One from Mount Paran brought: "SALVATION!" Ø And he [Moses (S)] said: the Lord came from Sinai, and rose from Sir unto them; He shined forth from MOUNT PARAN, and he came with ten thousand Saints: from his right hand went a fiery LAW for them. ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=de+33%3A2§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=de%2033%3A2&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=de&ng=33&ncc=33 - KJV) History of Islam: When Muhammad (S) invade Mecca with “ten thousand followers” they only kill six persons who were among the leaders: Ø “Thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Se-lah.” (Habk.3:13) tnc------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 28 January 2012 at 8:10pm
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That is what I said you agrees on because you quote it, see below:
It is mentioned in the Qur'an: O people of Book! Commit no excess in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His word (BE), which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messenger. Say not "trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is one God: Glory be to Him. (Q.4:171) Jesus was a MESSENGER of Allah, a WORD from Allah and a SPIRIT proceeding from Allah. “...He shall testify of me.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2015:26&version=9 - ) The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, BE And he was. (Q.3:59) That is exactly what I have proven from your bible above! The truth [comes] from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt. (Q.3:60)
“...we have an “advocate” with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1jo+2%3A1§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=1jo%202%3A1&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=2&ncc=2 - ) Jesus (S) was a “Comforter” and he “PRAIED” like every one else and ask the father for “another” comforter. What does “another” mean? “…I will pray to the father, and he shall give you "another" Comforter that he may abide with you for ever. Even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you. (John http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A16§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2014%3A16&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14 - ) TNC ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 January 2012 at 10:35am
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Kish, it seems that you try to talk more than you can comprehend. That is a big mistake when trying to understand things forget about others to understand or even listen to you. I will take just one item out of so many you wrote without understanding any it seems. I thank TNC for not just keeping up with you but beating every argument you bring in, may Allah reward him. In reponse to TNC on Jan 25 you wrote: "What Muhammad failed to grasp was the ‘word.’ Who was the ‘word’ or lo’gos that was with God in the beginning, it was Jesus! When God said ‘let us’ make man in our image Geneses 1:26 he was referring to Jesus." My quesstion to you in response to what you wrote will be: Did a single prophet of the OT ever mentioned that there is someone beside God named Jesus who is also God as you understand? Can you back up your claim with words of any OT prophet who has plainly and clearly said that? Such an assuption just does not make sense in the first place, nor it has any proof in the OT, does it? Also it does not make sense that if God wants to come on earth, He has to born to one of His creatures. What a senseless thing to say. Hasan ------------- 39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?" |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 01 February 2012 at 9:24am
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Originally posted by truthnowcome
And who is Jesus (S) Father? Jesus (S) said: … I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” (John 20:16-17 AKJV) So here we are again as I said before, Islam does not teach that Jesus has a father, my question to you again is How can he ascend to his Father if he does not have one? You see the dilemma Muslims put themselves in by my misquoting the Gospel of Jesus. I’ll wait for an answer. Originally posted by truthnowcome
Kish you have to wake up from your dream; you are worshiping a man god who has also a supreme and invisible God. Christ and Christians have already preached that and still does to this very today, so you’re not saying anything different you are just stalling at this point! Of course that invisible God in the heavens is named Jehovah not Allah! http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/OT19PSA083.htm - Psalm 83:18 So, who is the father mentioned here, and who will the father testify for? You and Husan said . . . I have given you the answer above, the Father is Jesus’ (S) God But you also said Jesus has no father in the heaven, how could it be both? It is a very simple question does Jesus have a father or not? If so, who is he? Give me details don’t be afraid by diverting the question to something else or asking a question with a question, that is cowardly. ------------- |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 02 February 2012 at 8:11pm
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Originally posted by truthnowcome
but you just read John and ignore the rest of information related in context of “creation”; that is why you arrived with the Romans’ interpretation” of a “man god” “Romans interpretation of a ‘man god’ you say?” You guys have no idea or comprehension or knowledge what-so-ever of the Holy Scriptures. Exodus 7:1 Consequently http://www.watchtower.org/e/na/article_02.htm - JEHOVAH said to Moses: “See, I have made you http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/OT02EXO07.htm - God to Phar′aoh and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet. Is that the Romans interpretation of a ‘man god too? Originally posted by HONETO
My quesstion to you in response to what you wrote will be: Did a single prophet of the OT ever mentioned that there is someone beside God named Jesus who is also God as you understand? Can you back up your claim with words of any OT prophet who has plainly and clearly said that? God said it himself to the Prophet Moses!!! 
Check Mate!!! ------------- |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 03 February 2012 at 9:05am
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Originally posted by truthnowcome
You want to play games with me! Just click on this link http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1jo+2%3A1§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=1jo%202%3A1&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=2&ncc=2 - <span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1 - 1John.2:1</span> and look up the word “advocate”</span> advocate” with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1jo+2%3A1§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=1jo%202%3A1&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=2&ncc=2 - 1John.2:1 Jesus (S) was a “Comforter” and he “PRAIED” like every one else and ask the father for “another” comforter. What does “another” mean? "another" Comforter that he may abide with you for ever. Even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you. (John[URL=http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A16§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2014%3A16&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14] TNC Notice, "Jesus (S) said: Ø “When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which Proceedeth from the Father, he will testify of me.” (John 15:26 ) " Jesus said he will send the Spirit of Truth. Making himself equal to the Father. |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 03 February 2012 at 4:07pm
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<>
TNC <>------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 04 February 2012 at 12:30pm
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Originally posted by truthnowcome
Allah (S) remove the word ‘father” from the picture because people “misunderstood the meaning” of the word “father” when it used for him; they think since God is his father may be he is a god also that is the reason why you and others believed that. He gives the explanation that the father is the one who “created him and all creation”, and that Creator is his’ God. Muslims now finally admit that Jesus has a father and therefore he is the SON OF GOD! Matthew 3:17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved Luke 10:22 All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him. Christian like the Apostle Peter already knew this - 2 Peter 1:17, 18 : “This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.” 18 Yes, these words we heard borne from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain. ------------- |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 05 February 2012 at 5:37pm
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Originally posted by Hughes Peace my friend!Originally posted by truthnowcome
You want to play games with me! Just click on this link http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1jo+2%3A1%C2%A7ion=0&it=kjv&oq=1jo%202%3A1&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=2&ncc=2 - <span style="color:black;mso-themecolor:text1">1John.2:1</span> and look up the word “advocate”</span> advocate” with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=1jo+2%3A1%C2%A7ion=0&it=kjv&oq=1jo%202%3A1&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=1jo&ng=2&ncc=2 - 1John.2:1 Jesus (S) was a “Comforter” and he “PRAIED” like every one else and ask the father for “another” comforter. What does “another” mean? "another" Comforter that he may abide with you for ever. Even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you. (John[URL=http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A16§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2014%3A16&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14] TNC Notice, "Jesus (S) said: Ø “When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which Proceedeth from the Father, he will testify of me.” (John 15:26 ) " Jesus said he will send the Spirit of Truth. Making himself equal to the Father. First, welcome aboard! Notice, "Jesus (S) said: “…I will pray to the father, and "he" shall give you another" Comforter that he may abide with you for ever. Even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you. (John http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+14%3A16§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2014%3A16&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=14&ncc=14 - ) Jesus (S) “PRAYED” like every one else and ask the father for “another” comforter and the "FATHER" will Give the other comforter. That make Jesus (S) a human who depends on God"s help. Br. zainool ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 05 February 2012 at 5:55pm
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Originally posted by Kish
<>
Originally posted by truthnowcome
Allah (S) remove the word ‘father” from the picture because people “misunderstood the meaning” of the word “father” when it used for him; they think since God is his father may be he is a god also that is the reason why you and others believed that. He gives the explanation that the father is the one who “created him and all creation”, and that Creator is his’ God. Muslims now finally admit that Jesus has a father and therefore he is the SON OF GOD! Matthew 3:17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved Luke 10:22 All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him. Christian like the Apostle Peter already knew this - 2 Peter 1:17, 18 : “This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved.” 18 Yes, these words we heard borne from heaven while we were with him in the holy mountain. JESUS (S) REVEALED HIS TRUE IDENTITY TO HIS DISCIPLES It is stated in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016&version=9 - : Ø “When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he
asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And
they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others,
Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016&version=9 - Very important question, he is about to let you know who he is. Ø V.16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:15-18&version=50 - - Note: the word "Christ" is Messiah in Hebrew: Ø http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:41&version=50 - - - - and in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%204&version=9 - “The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.” Having said that, let us look at the Verse17: Ø Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.V.18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:15-18&version=50 - - - Note very important: Jesus (S) made his claimed that he is the Messiah (foretold in the OT.), the Son of the living God; he didn’t claimed he is God Almighty! When Jesus (S) mentioned, “he is the Messiah, the Son of the living God”, that does not mean God has a biological son or he is a part of God as Christians believe; they misunderstood Jesus (S) statement in context of his message. The bible clearly stated Adam (S) the first Man the God of the bible created is his son and anyone who led by the spirit of God is the sons of God; and Jesus (S) falls in that category. The bible says: Ø “…Adam, which was the son of God.” Luke3:38 Ø For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God. ( Romans 8:14) Jesus (S) was led by the spirit of God: Ø “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven..., and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Ø "...I cast out devils by the Spirit of God then the kingdom of God is come unto you." (Matthew 12:28) Ø "I can of mine own self do nothing " (John 5:30) Ø For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God. (Romans 8:14) JESUS (S) DECLARED WHERE WOULD BE THE CHURCH. Remember what Jesus (S) said in Matt.16:15-18? He said: “Bless art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Peter name was “Simon Bar-jona” and Jesus (S) change his name to “Peter” (Little Rock). The Rock represent Peter’s message; and upon this rock I will build my church. Peter was the only one knew who Jesus (S) was when he said: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” he understood that anyone led by the Spirit of God is the Son of God. Ø For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans.8:14&version=9 - ) Ø “…the Lord hath said unto me, (David) Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms.2:7&version=9 - ) Jesus (S) was led by Spirit of God: Ø “And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven…and abode upon him.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.1:32&version=9 - ) Ø …I cast out devil by the Spirit of God. Then the kingdom of God is come unto you. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:28&version=9 - ) Ø I can of mine own self do nothing… ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.5:30&version=9 - ) Ø …I with the finger of God cast out devil… ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke.11:20&version=9 - ) Ø For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:50&version=9 - ) Peter testimony when address the Jews: Ø “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approve of God” among you by miracles and wonders and sign, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you your self also know” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ac+2%3A22§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=ac%202%3A22&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=ac&ng=2&ncc=2 - ) And Jesus (S) said: Ø "I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2013:16&version=9 - ) Ø Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine,
but His who sent Me.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207:16&version=9 - ) Which Church teaches that Jesus (S) is a man approve of God? Islam!! And he (S) said: Ø “And the gate of hell shall not prevail against it.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:18&version=9 - ) Jesus (S) conforms: Ø “And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: V.30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2012:29-30&version=9 - Ø “For I have not
spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I
should speak.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:49&version=9 - ) Ø “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of
the Father who sent Me.” (John.5:30) And who is Jesus (S) Father? Jesus (S) said: Ø “…Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:16-17%20&version=9 - AKJV) According to him, his Father is “OUR GOD and HIS GOD; He has a GOD, He said: “MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” And the following verse he declared that he is not good only God is good, in reply to someone he (S) said to him: Ø "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:18&version=9 - ) From the above explanation we can conclude that Jesus (S) was not a biological son of God or a part of the God head as the Christ’s commentators lead the Christians to believe. He was the Messiah sent to the children of the house of Israel and they rejected him; so the church was removed from them (the children of Israel) and given to another nation [the children of Ishmael which is the seed of Abraham (S)].
TNC ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 06 February 2012 at 8:46am
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Thanks Truthnowcome, and peace to you.
Now, I quoted you and will do so again, where you stated: "HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME
Jesus (S) said: Ø “When the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which Proceedeth from the Father, he will testify of me.” (John 15:26 ) It is mentioned in the Qur'an: Ø people of Book! Commit no excess in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His word (BE), which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messenger. Say not "trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is one God: Glory be to Him. (Q.4:171) Jesus was a MESSENGER of Allah, a WORD from Allah and a SPIRIT proceeding from Allah. “...He shall testify of me.” (John 15:26)" Above, you quoted John 15:26, where Jesus clearly states he is sending the comforter. And in reply you stated: Notice, "Jesus (S) said:
“…I will pray to the father, and "he" shall give you another" Comforter that he may abide with you for ever. Even the spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you. (John14:16-17) Jesus (S) “PRAYED” like every one else and ask the father for “another” comforter and the "FATHER" will Give the other comforter. That make Jesus (S) a human who depends on God"s help. Where Jesus says, the Father will give another comforter. Now, it's curious you didn't attempt to explain the contradiction between John 15 and 14? What do you make of Jesus' statement that he will send the comforter? What was the author's original intent in writing it, how did he intend it to be understood? |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 07 February 2012 at 4:56pm
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Originally posted by Hughes
<>
Thanks Truthnowcome, and peace to you. Now, it's curious you didn't attempt to explain the contradiction between John 15 and 14? What do you make of Jesus' statement that he will send the comforter? What was the author's original intent in writing it, how did he intend it to be understood? Peace my friend! Now we are getting somewhere, good point! If you follow all my reply to Mr. Kish you will recognize that Jesus (S) is not God; and if he is not God how could he send the comforter? He can’t! He prayed and asks God Almighty for another comforter to come and God Almighty assure him of his (the other Comforter) coming. Remember he said: “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”? ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:49&version=9 - - John 12:49 ) God Almighty assure him that the other comforter will come but with a “condition”, and that is, He has to go before the Comforter comes: “Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart, I will send him unto you.!” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=joh+16%3A7§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=joh%2016%3A7&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=joh&ng=16&ncc=16 - ) When informing the disciples of the condition he said: “I will send him unto you”. That would mean at his arrival in Heaven would indicate the readiness for the other Comforter to come because is the Father (God Almighty) who will give them the Comforter, and the one who will give them ins the one who will send him.
I will give you an example: Remember the story when Jesus (S) told a man he becomes hold and his sin is forgiven? Does that mean Jesus (S) forgive sins? No! It is only God Almighty who forgives sins. Jesus (S) said: “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” (John.5:30)
Same with the disciples: 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye ( the disciples) remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.(John 22:21-23) Can the disciples remit sins? No! It is God Almighty who remits sins.
Br. zainool <> <>------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 07 February 2012 at 7:36pm
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When informing the disciples of the condition he said: “I will send him unto you”. That would mean at his arrival in Heaven would indicate the readiness for the other Comforter to come because is the Father (God Almighty) who will give them the Comforter, and the one who will give them ins the one who will send him.(John 16:7)
So, it appears that you resolve the apparent conflict between John 14 and 15, by claiming that (A) Jesus wasn't God, and (B) that Jesus wasn't claiming to *actually* be sending the Comforter himself. Now, it's interesting, because the phrase is clear, "I will send..." And it's not just stated once, but twice, and in the 61 other times this exact phrase is used in the Bible, it never once means, I am actually not sending, but someone else is sending, rather, it means exactly what it says. Jesus is actually sending the comforter. So, unless you have more information to bring to the table, it is pretty clear and straight forward, based on these texts, Jesus is claiming to be the sender. As to your claim that Jesus wasn't God, that too isn't supported by the biblical text. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 08 February 2012 at 10:50am
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As to your claim that Jesus wasn't God, that too isn't supported by the biblical text. ?????????
Where in the Bible does Jesus say that i am God or where Jesus says worship me.????? Give one unequivocal statement from your Bible any version. |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 09 February 2012 at 9:25am
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Originally posted by iec786
As to your claim that Jesus wasn't God, that too isn't supported by the biblical text. ????????? Where in the Bible does Jesus say that i am God or where Jesus says worship me.????? Give one unequivocal statement from your Bible any version. John 8:58 " 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds." (NIV) Rev. 22: 12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (NIV) Rev. 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” (NIV) Notice, that in each case, the "I am" statement is used, this is the same statement God used when Moses asked God who shall I say sent me? "I am who I am". Ex. 3:14 The usage of the exact same statement numerous times in the Biblical text is clear, and the Jews understood exactly what he was saying because they tried to stone him for claiming to be God. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 09 February 2012 at 10:06pm
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Where in the Bible does Jesus say that i am God or where Jesus says worship me.?????
Give one unequivocal statement from your Bible any version. Dick,did you read properly it seems that you do not understand English.being the good guy that i am let me help you. un·e·quiv·o·cal (n-kwv-kl) adj. Admitting of no doubt or misunderstanding; clear and unambiguous: an unequivocal success. I asked for an unequivocal statement and you come and wast my time with John 8:58 " 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered Rev. 22: 12 Rev. 22:16 these are not unequivocal statements Now back to my question Where in the Bible does Jesus say that i am God or where Jesus says worship me.????? Give one unequivocal statement from your Bible any version. and please do not tell me of John 10:30 thank you. |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 10 February 2012 at 9:30am
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Originally posted by iec786
Where in the Bible does Jesus say that i am God or where Jesus says worship me.????? Give one unequivocal statement from your Bible any version. Dick,did you read properly it seems that you do not understand English.being the good guy that i am let me help you. un·e·quiv·o·cal (n-kwv-kl) adj. Admitting of no doubt or misunderstanding; clear and unambiguous: an unequivocal success. I asked for an unequivocal statement and you come and wast my time with John 8:58 " 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered Rev. 22: 12 Rev. 22:16 these are not unequivocal statements Now back to my question Where in the Bible does Jesus say that i am God or where Jesus says worship me.????? Give one unequivocal statement from your Bible any version. and please do not tell me of John 10:30 thank you. When someone speaks to you in a foreign language, and uses a foreign context, in order to understand that message correctly, it is important to understand the original usages of that language and the intended meaning of the original writer. In all theses cases, including Jn. 10:30, the intended audience (the jews) understood exactly what Jesus was claiming. So clearly in fact that they were trying to kill him. If you wish to redefine the message as intended by the original writer (the Holy Spirit), then that is your choice. I can't help you and I wish you well. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 11 February 2012 at 4:55am
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Mr Hughes,
No way you think you can just run away like that,and expect me to except that answer?You are going to have to do better then that.I have done research and i demand from you answers to my questions. You better go back to your pastor or priest or your Dr of divinity and come up with proper answers. Your story of the Jews understood it is a lie.Your Jesus said i have yet many things to say to you but ye cannot bare them now because those Jews never understood a word that he spoke.So for you to come here and tell me that the Jews understood it well is a lie. Do you know what Jesus called your Jewish friends? Let me give you a Bible lesson. Jesus said "you evil and adulterous generations,you snakes,you vipers. now i want you to go back and learn what Jesus said and not what Paul,Paul,Paul the Jew said because what ever you talk about is what Paul said and not what the great master Jesus said. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 11 February 2012 at 9:40am
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Mr Hughes,
If you wish to redefine the message as intended by the original writer (the Holy Spirit) I am not sure if i understand this part of your post.Did you just say that the Bible was written by the Holy Ghost? Please clarify. |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 12 February 2012 at 9:11pm
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Originally posted by honeto
My quesstion to you in response to what you wrote will be: Did a single prophet of the OT ever mentioned that there is someone beside God named Jesus who is also God as you understand? Can you back up your claim with words of any OT prophet who has plainly and clearly said that? “Romans interpretation of a ‘man god’ you say?” You guys have no idea or comprehension or knowledge what-so-ever of the Holy Scriptures. Exodus 7:1 Consequently JEHOVAH said to Moses: “See, I have made you http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/OT02EXO07.htm - God to Phar′aoh and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet. Does that answer your question? SMACK DOWN!!! AND HASAN IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND - AT LEAST ON THIS THREAD!!! HASAN YOU CANNOT KEEP RUNNING!!! ------------- |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 13 February 2012 at 8:47am
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Originally posted by iec786
Mr Hughes, No way you think you can just run away like that,and expect me to except that answer?You are going to have to do better then that.I have done research and i demand from you answers to my questions. You better go back to your pastor or priest or your Dr of divinity and come up with proper answers. Your story of the Jews understood it is a lie.Your Jesus said i have yet many things to say to you but ye cannot bare them now because those Jews never understood a word that he spoke.So for you to come here and tell me that the Jews understood it well is a lie. Do you know what Jesus called your Jewish friends? Let me give you a Bible lesson. Jesus said "you evil and adulterous generations,you snakes,you vipers. now i want you to go back and learn what Jesus said and not what Paul,Paul,Paul the Jew said because what ever you talk about is what Paul said and not what the great master Jesus said. Let's say that you are correct (which I don't believe, but for a little mental exercise say you are), that Jesus wasn't really claiming to be God by his many statements and his claims to be the "I AM". If you are correct, then we would expect to find statements where Jesus tells people not to worship him, or tells them he's not the "I AM" Like they think he is. For example, when the Jews picked up stones to stone him, instead of saying what he said, he could have just as easily denied his divinity, and said they had it all wrong, and told them he's just a prophet. However, he didn't do this, and if you disagree you are free to show me where he did. Also another example, when Jesus appeared to Mary and other women, after his resurrection, they fell at his feet and "they worshiped him" (Matt. 28:9). Now if you are correct in your assessment, we would expect to see Jesus throw them off and tell them to stop worshipping him. We would expect a reprimand from him stating that he's not God, not the I AM, and not to be worshiped, since he is only a man. But, this again doesn't happen at all. Who am I to believe? Mary and those who were witnesses of these events or someone who didn't witness them? Again, if you honestly think that your position is correct, then please support it with scripture. Until then you have a theory without support. |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 13 February 2012 at 8:50am
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Originally posted by iec786
Mr Hughes, If you wish to redefine the message as intended by the original writer (the Holy Spirit) I am not sure if i understand this part of your post.Did you just say that the Bible was written by the Holy Ghost? Please clarify. Indeed that is the case. 2 peter 2:21 "For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." (NIV) |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 13 February 2012 at 9:20am
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Ok so you believe that Jesus is God. that Jesus wasn't really claiming to be God by his many statements and his claims to be the "I AM"
Let me show you the ABSURDITY of the claim that Jesus is God!) THE BIRTH OF "GOD" "God" Was Created From The Seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3) "God" Was The Fruit of the Loins of David. "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." (Acts, 2:30) The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1) The Sex of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21) How Mary Conceived and Delivered "God": Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman: "The days were accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke, 2:6) - which means that she went through all the normal stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any different from other expectant mothers: "And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered." (Revelation, 12:2) "God" Sucked The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27) The Country of Origin of "God": Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew, 2:1) The Occupation of "God": Jesus was a carpenter by trade (Mark, 6:3), and the son of a carpenter. (Matthew, 13:55) The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5). "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14) The Wining and Dining "God": "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:19; Luke, 7:34) The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him,The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20) The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes" of Jesus. (Luke, 3:16). "Garments" and "coat" of Jesus. (John, 19:23) "God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed." (Mark, 1:35) "God" Was a Loyal Subject: Jesus was a good citizen; he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew, 22:21). He paid his tax regularly. (Matthew, 17:24-27) THE FAMILY OF "GOD" "God" Was the Son of Joseph: "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, THE SON OF JOSEPH," (John, 1:45) Brothers and Brothers-in-law of "God": "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence hath this man all these things?" (Matthew, 13:54-56). THE DEVELOPMENT OF "GOD" Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke, 2:40) Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "God": "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." (Luke, 2:52) "God" Was Twelve Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42) The Powerless "God": Jesus said, "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30) "God" Was Ignorant of the Time: Jesus said, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32) "God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13) "God Was Unlettered: "Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John, 7:14- 15) "God' Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he suffered." (Hebrews, 5:8) THE TEMPTING OF "GOD" The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13) The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke, 4:13) Like The Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15) True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James, 1:13) Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14) THE MISSION OF "GOD" The Confession and Repentance of "God": Before the beginning of his public ministry, Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist (Matthew, 3:13), which signified the confession of sins (Matthew, 3:6), and repentance from sins (Matthew, 3:11) "God" Did Not Come to Save the Sinners: "And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND THEIR SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM." (Mark, 4:10-12) THE RACIAL "GOD" "God" Was A Tribal Jew: "The Lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation, 5:5) "God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 15:24) Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6) According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (Matthew, 15:26) The Kingdom of "God": "And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33) The Titles of "God": "The King of the Jews". (Matthew, 2:2); "The King of Israel". (John, 1:49; 12:13 A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an HUNGERED." (Matthew, 4:2). "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he HUNGERED." (Matthew, 21:18). "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was HUNGRY." (Mark, 11:12) A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I THIRST." (John, 19:28) A Sleepy "God": "He was ASLEEP." (Matthew. 8:24). "He fell ASLEEP." (Luke, 8:23). "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, ASLEEP on a pillow." (Mark. 4:38) A Weary "God": "Jesus therefore, being WEARIED with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6) A Groaning "God": "He GROANED in the spirit, and was TROUBLED." (John, 11:33). "Jesus therefore again GROANING in himself cometh to the grave." (John, 11:38) A Weeping "God": "Jesus WEPT". (John, 11:35) A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be SORROWFUL and VERY HEAVY." (Matthew, 26:37). "Then saith he unto them, My soul is EXCEEDING SORROWFUL, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:38A Hysterical "God": "And (he) began to be SORE AMAZED and to be VERY HEAVY." (Mark, 14:33) A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, STRENGTHENING him." (Luke, 22:43) THE WARRING "GOD" The Strong-Arm Method of "God": "And he went into the temple, and began TO CAST OUT them that sold therein, and them that bought." (Luke, 19:45). "And the Jews' Passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a SCOURGE of small cords, HE DROVE THEM ALL OUT of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and POURED OUT the changers' money, and OVERTHREW the tables." (John, 2:13-15) The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a SWORD." (Matthew, 10:34) The Sabre-Rattling "God": Jesus said: "And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke, 22:36) THE "GOD" ON THE RUN "God" Was Panic-Stricken: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1) "God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54) "God" Has Shown A Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39) "God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59) THE CAPTURE OF "GOD" A Friend Betrayed The Secret Hiding Place of "God": "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus oft-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3) "God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13) "God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67) "God" Was Defenceless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said, "Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23) "God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They answered and said, He is guilty of death." (Matthew, 26:66) The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32) THE SUPPOSED END OF "GOD" The Dying "God": "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost." (Mark, 15:37) The "God" that was supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans, 5:6). "He was dead". (John, 19:33) The supposed Corpse of "God": "He (Joseph of Arimathaea) went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered." (Matthew, 27:58) The "Shroud" of "God": "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth." (Matthew, 27:59) The "Obituary" of the "Late" and Lamented "God": "Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man." (Luke, 23:47) |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 13 February 2012 at 1:57pm
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Originally posted by iec786
Ok so you believe that Jesus is God. that Jesus wasn't really claiming to be God by his many statements and his claims to be the "I AM" Let me show you the ABSURDITY of the claim that Jesus is God!) So, you can't show anything from the Bible where Jesus said not to worship him or call him God? Jesus said to Martha, Jn. 11:25 "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” You see my friend, I am not disagreeing that Jesus was born a human, and as a man, what I am saying is that the scripture is clear. He was also God. If you disagree, and think your case has support, then please show me where Jesus said "don't worship me", or " No I'm not God." If you were correct, that he's not God in human flesh, then why would a mere prophet state that he is the resurrection and the life? Why would he use the "I AM" statements? Why would he say that "Who believes in me will live"? Why say that? What could that mean other than he's claiming to be the Almighty God? |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 13 February 2012 at 11:13pm
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I have posted a foot long page and you still don't understand.
I have been with you so long and ye are yet without understanding,you snakes you vipers. Quotes from the BIBLE |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 14 February 2012 at 7:32pm
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Originally posted by Hughes
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Mr. Hughes,
you are quoting verses and give it your own interpretation that is the reason
why you were miss led to believe and propagating Jesus (S) as God. I gave you
“FACT” from the NT showing where JESUS (S) DECLARED WHO HE IS AND WHO WILL
UNDERSTAND HIS MESSAGE. PETER WAS THE CHOSEN ONE TO UNDERSTAND WHO HE IS as he
declared here:
Originally posted by iec786
Ok so you believe that Jesus is God. that Jesus wasn't really claiming to be God by his many statements and his claims to be the "I AM" Let me show you the ABSURDITY of the claim that Jesus is God!) So, you can't show anything from the Bible where Jesus said not to worship him or call him God? Jesus said to Martha, Jn. 11:25 "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” You see my friend, I am not disagreeing that Jesus was born a human, and as a man, what I am saying is that the scripture is clear. He was also God. If you disagree, and think your case has support, then please show me where Jesus said "don't worship me", or " No I'm not God." If you were correct, that he's not God in human flesh, then why would a mere prophet state that he is the resurrection and the life? Why would he use the "I AM" statements? Why would he say that "Who believes in me will live"? Why say that? What could that mean other than he's claiming to be the Almighty God?
JESUS (S) REVEALED HIS TRUE IDENTITY TO HIS DISCIPLES It is stated in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016&version=9 - Ø “When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016&version=9 - DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS STATEMENT MEAN: “But whom say ye that I am?”? Jesus (S) was about to let the disciples know who he is. Ø V.16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:15-18&version=50 - - Matt.16:16 Note: the word "Christ" is Messiah in Hebrew: Ø http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:41&version=50 - - John 1:41 “ - He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the - Messiah, which is, being interpreted, the Christ; - ” and in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%204&version=9 - “The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.” Having said that, let us look at the Verse17: Ø Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.V.18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:15-18&version=50 - - Matt.16:17 - Note very important: Jesus (S) made his claimed that he is the Messiah (foretold in the OT.), the Son of the living God; he didn’t claimed he is God Almighty! When Jesus (S) mentioned, “he is the Messiah, the Son of the living God”, that does not mean God has a biological son or he is a part of God as Christians believe; they misunderstood Jesus (S) statement in context of his message. The bible clearly stated Adam (S) the first Man the God of the bible created is his son and anyone who led by the spirit of God is the sons of God; and Jesus (S) falls in that category. The bible says: Ø “…Adam, which was the son of God.” Luke3:38 “…the Lord hath said unto me, (David) Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms.2:7&version=9 - - Psalms.2:7 ) Ø For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God. ( Romans 8:14) Jesus (S) was led by the spirit of God: Ø “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven..., and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) Ø "...I cast out devils by the Spirit of God then the kingdom of God is come unto you." (Matthew 12:28) Ø "I can of mine own self do nothing " (John 5:30) JESUS (S) DECLARED WHERE WOULD BE THE CHURCH. Remember what Jesus (S) said in Matt.16:15-18? He said: “Bless art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Peter name was “Simon Bar-jona” and Jesus (S) change his name to “Peter” (Little Rock). The Rock represent Peter’s message; and upon this rock I will build my church. Peter was the only one knew who Jesus (S) was when he said: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” he understood that anyone led by the Spirit of God is the Son of God.
Ø For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans.8:14&version=9 - - Romans.8:14 ) Jesus (S) was led by Spirit of God: Ø “And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven…and abode upon him.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.1:32&version=9 - - John.1:32 ) Ø …I cast out devil by the Spirit of God. Then the kingdom of God is come unto you. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:28&version=9 - - Matt.12:28 ) Ø I can of mine own self do nothing… ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.5:30&version=9 - - John.5:30 ) Ø …I with the finger of God cast out devil… ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke.11:20&version=9 - - Luke.11:20 ) Ø For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:50&version=9 - ) Peter testimony when address the Jews: Ø “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approve of God” among you by miracles and wonders and sign, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you your self also know” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ac+2%3A22§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=ac%25202%3A22&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=ac&ng=2&ncc=2 - ) And Jesus (S) said: Ø "I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2013:16&version=9 - - John 13:16 ) Ø Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine,
but His who sent Me.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207:16&version=9 - - John 7:16 ) Which Church teaches that Jesus (S) is a man approve of God? Islam!! And he (S) said: Ø “And the gate of hell shall not prevail against it.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:18&version=9 - - Matt.16:18 ) Jesus (S) conforms: Ø “And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: V.30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2012:29-30&version=9 - - Mark 12:29-30 Ø “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:49&version=9 - - John 12:49 ) Ø “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of
the Father who sent Me.” (John.5:30) And who is Jesus (S) Father? Jesus (S) said: Ø “…Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:16-17%20&version=9 - - John 20:16-17 AKJV) According to him, his Father is “OUR GOD and HIS GOD; He has a GOD, He said: “MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” HE PRAYED TO HIS GOD: "And in the morning,
rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary
place, and there prayed." (Mark, 1:35) The following verse he declared that he is not good only God is good, in reply to someone he (S) said to him: Ø "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:18&version=9 - ) From the above explanation we can conclude that Jesus (S) was not a biological son of God or a part of the God head as the Christ’s commentators lead the Christians to believe. He was the Messiah sent to the children of the house of Israel.
TNC ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 14 February 2012 at 7:49pm
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<>
This is what I am talking about! You quote a verse without understanding it meaning according to your bible, you are no different from the Jews (misunderstood his statement). BEING BACK THERE IN THE BEGINNING DOESN’T MEAN HE IS GOD; HE WAS CREATED BY GOD. “He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15) He according to Paul is the “FIRST BORN / FIRST CREATED BEFORE ALL CREATION”. Jesus (S) was “CREATED” IN THE “BEGINNING” before “ALL CREATION” according to your bible. You can look up the definition for the word “CREATED” LOOK IT UP! He is the “image” of the invisible god and “not” the invisible god! Adam (s) and eve was “created” in the “image” of the same invisible God also: 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1: 27 Peter testimony when address the Jews: Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approve of God” among you by miracles and wonders and sign, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you your self also know” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ac+2%3A22§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=ac%202%3A22&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=ac&ng=2&ncc=2 - - Acts 2:22 ) TNC ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 14 February 2012 at 8:31pm
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Originally posted by truthnowcome
Originally posted by Hughes
Originally posted by iec786
Ok so you believe that Jesus is God. that Jesus wasn't really claiming to be God by his many statements and his claims to be the "I AM" Let me show you the ABSURDITY of the claim that Jesus is God!) So, you can't show anything from the Bible where Jesus said not to worship him or call him God? Jesus said to Martha, Jn. 11:25 "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” You see my friend, I am not disagreeing that Jesus was born a human, and as a man, what I am saying is that the scripture is clear. He was also God. If you disagree, and think your case has support, then please show me where Jesus said "don't worship me", or " No I'm not God." If you were correct, that he's not God in human flesh, then why would a mere prophet state that he is the resurrection and the life? Why would he use the "I AM" statements? Why would he say that "Who believes in me will live"? Why say that? What could that mean other than he's claiming to be the Almighty God? <> Mr. Hughes, you are quoting verses and give it your own interpretation that is the reason why you were miss led to believe and propagating Jesus (S) as God. I gave you “FACT” from the NT showing where JESUS (S) DECLARED WHO HE IS AND WHO WILL UNDERSTAND HIS MESSAGE. PETER WAS THE CHOSEN ONE TO UNDERSTAND WHO HE IS as he declared here: From the above explanation we can conclude that Jesus (S) was not a biological son of God or a part of the God head as the Christ’s commentators lead the Christians to believe. He was the Messiah sent to the children of the house of Israel. First, everything is based on interpretation. You have an interpretation, and I have one and everyone reading this has one... so the point is which interpretation is correct and was intended by the original writer of the scripture? A couple of things to notice. One is no facts were given above that showed Jesus wasn't God, nor were any scriptures quoted that said that Jesus claimed not to be God, and further none of your comments addressed the verses I pointed out where Jesus did in fact claim to be the Almighty God and was worshiped as God by Martha and others. And no one I know of has ever claimed that Jesus was the biological Son of God. |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 14 February 2012 at 8:47pm
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Originally posted by truthnowcome
And who is Jesus (S) Father? Jesus (S) said: … I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” (John 20:16-17 AKJV) Guys, Islam does not teach that Jesus has a father, my question to you again is How can he ascend to his Father if he does not have one? You see the dilemma Muslims put themselves in by my misquoting the Gospel of Jesus. You and Husan said . . . I have given you the answer above, the Father is Jesus’ (S) God But you also said Jesus has no father in the heaven, how could it be both? It is a very simple question does Jesus have a father or not? Originally posted by truthnowcome
He said: “his’ father is his’ God and your God”. Allah (S) remove the word ‘father” from the picture because people “misunderstood the meaning” of the word “father” Okay, now we are getting somewhere. Jesus does have a father and if Jesus has a father guess what, that means Jesus is the son, the “Son” of his father OR the “Son Of God.” Can you be a father and not have a son? Of course not!!! The Gospel taught this way before the Quran did!!! But yet, the Quran and Muhammad’s god Allah fails to acknowledge Jesus as God’s Son!!! Why??? (John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way (Not Muhammad) and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 5:43) I have come in the name of my Father (Jehovah God) but YOU (Muslims) do not receive me; if someone else arrived in his own name (Muhammad), YOU would receive that one. (and they did) What is the DANGER of this??? http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/NT44ACT03.htm - Acts 3:22 In fact, Moses said, ‘Jehovah God (Not Allah) will raise up for YOU from among YOUR brothers (Hebrew)a prophet like me. YOU must listen to him according to all the things he speaks to YOU. 23 Indeed, any soul that does not listen to that Prophet (JESUS) will be completely destroyed from among the people. So, we already know Jesus has a father but is Jesus a god? Let us go back to the same book and chapter that TNC used from the very start http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_001.htm - John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. If Muhammad’s god have a problem with that, that is just too bad!!! Because Jesus’ God Jehovah, the God of http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/OT02EXO06.htm - Abraham , Isaac and Jacob does NOT have a problem with it which is all that really matters!!!  ------------- |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 14 February 2012 at 9:06pm
|
Originally posted by truthnowcome
Originally posted by Hughes
Originally posted by iec786
As to your claim that Jesus wasn't God, that too isn't supported by the biblical text. ????????? Where in the Bible does Jesus say that i am God or where Jesus says worship me.????? Give one unequivocal statement from your Bible any version. John 8:58 " 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds." (NIV) Notice, that in each case, the "I am" statement is used, this is the same statement God used when Moses asked God who shall I say sent me? "I am who I am". Ex. 3:14 The usage of the exact same statement numerous times in the Biblical text is clear, and the Jews understood exactly what he was saying because they tried to stone him for claiming to be God. This is what I am talking about! You quote a verse without understanding it meaning according to your bible, you are no different from the Jews (misunderstood his statement). BEING BACK THERE IN THE BEGINNING DOESN’T MEAN HE IS GOD; HE WAS CREATED BY GOD. “He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (Colossians 1:15) He according to Paul is the “FIRST BORN / FIRST CREATED BEFORE ALL CREATION”. Jesus (S) was “CREATED” IN THE “BEGINNING” before “ALL CREATION” according to your bible. You can look up the definition for the word “CREATED” LOOK IT UP! He is the “image” of the invisible god and “not” the invisible god! Adam (s) and eve was “created” in the “image” of the same invisible God also: 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1: 27 Peter testimony when address the Jews: Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approve of God” among you by miracles and wonders and sign, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you your self also know” (Acts 2:22) TNC Ok... ignoring the lack of a direct response to Jesus' direct claims in the book of John for a moment. Let's look at Colossians 1:15 Now, what is interesting is that you quoted one verse, and not the context, let's look at the context shall we? Colossians 1:15 "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." (NIV) Now your first argument is that Jesus was created. And you state, "He according to Paul is the “FIRST BORN / FIRST CREATED BEFORE ALL CREATION”. Jesus (S) was “CREATED” IN THE “BEGINNING” before “ALL CREATION” according to your bible." Notice how it doesn't say what you claim it says. What does the verse actually say? "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation" There is a difference here that you're not picking up, it seems. Jesus is the first born, not the first created. How do I know that? Because of a little thing called, "Context". Notice in vs. 16, "For in him all things were created:" And "all things have been created through him and for him." Hmm... now isn't that interesting? All things were created in him and through him and for him. Wow! Isn't that interesting. So, how could Jesus be created, yet all things were created in him/through him/ and for him? How I ask you? Oh wait... your quotation was not correct, he wasn't created, he was the firstborn. That's why. Your other argument was, "He is the “image” of the invisible god and “not” the invisible god! Adam (s) and eve was “created” in the “image” of the same invisible God also:" Yes, and the context continues doesn't it... Check this out. Verse 17 continues with, "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Wow, now that is interesting isn't it? In him all things hold together. All things! Wow, sort of sounds like God almighty doesn't it? Who else holds all things together, huh? A mere man? I don't think so. And it clears things up for us in Verse 18 "he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy." So, the concept and term of a first born is directly related to his physical resurrection on Earth, not his being born as a created being like Adam, but being the firstborn from the dead. Interesting isn't it? So, what did we learn here in Colossians? Jesus, was the first born from the dead, not created. In him all things were created, and all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Sounds like it agrees with his statements found in John, that you didn't respond to, that Jesus indeed is God almighty. |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 14 February 2012 at 10:01pm
|
Originally posted by Hughes
<>
First, everything is based on interpretation. You have an interpretation, and I have one and everyone reading this has one... so the point is which interpretation is correct and was intended by the original writer of the scripture? A couple of things to notice. One is no facts were given above that showed Jesus wasn't God, nor were any scriptures quoted that said that Jesus claimed not to be God, and further none of your comments addressed the verses I pointed out where Jesus did in fact claim to be the Almighty God and was worshiped as God by Martha and others. And no one I know of has ever claimed that Jesus was the biological Son of God. Mr. Hughes, this is not interpretation, this is Jesus (S) deceleration of who he is (FACT): JESUS (S) REVEALED HIS TRUE IDENTITY TO HIS DISCIPLES It is stated in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016&version=9 - “When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016&version=9 - Matthew 16:13-15 DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS STATEMENT MEAN: “But whom say ye that I am?”? Jesus (S) was about to let the disciples know who he is. V.16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:15-18&version=50 - Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.V.18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:15-18&version=50 - - - FACT: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God. ( Romans 8:14) Jesus (S) was led by the spirit of God: FACT: "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven..., and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) FACT:"...I cast out devils by the Spirit of God then the kingdom of God is come unto you." (Matthew 12:28) FACT:"I can of mine own self do nothing " (John 5:30) JESUS (S) DECLARED WHERE WOULD BE THE CHURCH. Remember what Jesus (S) said in Matt.16:15-18? He said: “Bless art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Peter name was “Simon Bar-jona” and Jesus (S) change his name to “Peter” (Little Rock). The Rock represent Peter’s message; and upon this rock I will build my church. Peter was the only one knew who Jesus (S) was when he said: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” he understood that anyone led by the Spirit of God is the Son of God. THIS IS NOT INTERPRETATION: FACT: For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:50&version=9 - ) Peter testimony when address the Jews: FACT: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approve of God” among you by miracles and wonders and sign, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you your self also know” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ac+2%3A22§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=ac%202%3A22&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=ac&ng=2&ncc=2 - ) Jesus (S) said: FACT: “…Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:16-17%20&version=9 - - John 20:16-17 AKJV) FACT: According to him, his Father is “OUR GOD and HIS GOD; He has a GOD, He said: “MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” HE PRAYED TO HIS’ GOD: FACT: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and THERE PRAYED." (Mark, 1:35) I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU CALL THIS: ONE WHO HAS A “GOD’ AND PRAY TO HIM (HIS GOD) IS ALSO YOUR GOD! WAKE UPMY FRIEND! Br. zainool ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 14 February 2012 at 10:22pm
|
Originally posted by Hughes
<>
Let's look at Colossians 1:15 Now, what is interesting is that you quoted one verse, and not the context, let's look at the context shall we? Colossians 1:15 "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." (NIV) Now your first argument is that Jesus was created. And you state, "He according to Paul is the “FIRST BORN / FIRST CREATED BEFORE ALL CREATION”. Jesus (S) was “CREATED” IN THE “BEGINNING” before “ALL CREATION” according to your bible." Notice how it doesn't say what you claim it says. What does the verse actually say? "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation" There is a difference here that you're not picking up, it seems. Jesus is the first born, not the first created. How do I know that? Because of a little thing called, "Context". Notice in vs. 16, "For in him all things were created:" And "all things have been created through him and for him." Hmm... now isn't that interesting? All things were created in him and through him and for him. Wow! Isn't that interesting. So, how could Jesus be created, yet all things were created in him/through him/ and for him? How I ask you? Oh wait... your quotation was not correct, he wasn't created, he was the firstborn. That's why. Your other argument was, "He is the “image” of the invisible god and “not” the invisible god! Adam (s) and eve was “created” in the “image” of the same invisible God also:" Yes, and the context continues doesn't it... Check this out. Verse 17 continues with, "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Wow, now that is interesting isn't it? In him all things hold together. All things! Wow, sort of sounds like God almighty doesn't it? Who else holds all things together, huh? A mere man? I don't think so. And it clears things up for us in Verse 18 "he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy." So, the concept and term of a first born is directly related to his physical resurrection on Earth, not his being born as a created being like Adam, but being the firstborn from the dead. Interesting isn't it? So, what did we learn here in Colossians? Jesus, was the first born from the dead, not created. In him all things were created, and all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Sounds like it agrees with his statements found in John, that you didn't respond to, that Jesus indeed is God almighty. Mr. Hughes, nice interpretation of Paul’s work but it didn’t go well with this: Jesus (S) a faithful witness BACK THERE IN THE BEGINNING: Ø John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; V.5 “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness… http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:4-5&version=9 - -5 As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty, and then the seven Spirits which is before the throne and Verse 5 says, “and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…” If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. <> Ø I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%201:8&version=9 - - 8 Who is this, Jesus (S)? No! This verse tie into Rev.1:4 FACT: …Grace be unto you, and peace, from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come (on judgment Day); “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; V. 5 “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%201:3-5&version=9 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%201:3-5&version=9 -(1) from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come (2) “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne (3) “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, FACT: You
see that! The seven spirits were before Gods Almighty Throne and Jesus (S) was
a “faithful witness”. Let us find out who really was on this throne: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%204&version=9 - and 5:1-7 tell us who was on the throne. Ø And immediately I (John) was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Rev. 4:2 Ø And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. Rev.4:3 Ø And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Rev.4:4 Ø And out of the throne preceded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Rev.4:5 Ø And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, Rev.4:9 Ø Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11 THE ONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE: Revelation 5 Ø And I saw in the right hand of “him that sat on the throne” a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. Rev.5:1 The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what he did with it? Let’s find out. Ø And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Rev.5:5 Ø And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6 Ø And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev.5:7 FACT: You see that? The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what happen with the book? It was taken by the lamb. So, who took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne? The Lamb! And who is sitting on the throne? God Almighty! Nothing new! It’s all in Revelation 1:1 Ø The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. Rev.1:1 Ø “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49) And who was Jesus (S)? Revelation 1:5 says: Ø “…Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…” AND WHO IS GOD ALMIGHTY? HE IS THE “CREATOR”: Ø “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11 Ø And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,” Rev.4:9 Br. zainool
------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 15 February 2012 at 7:41am
|
John 8:58 " 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham
was born, I am!” You claim to speak English.I asked for a simple answer and you come with a verse which does not even have the word God in it.I suppose this is the sickness which went through the Jews and now it has spread among you Christians. Ok let us try again. As to your claim that Jesus wasn't God, that too isn't supported by the biblical text. ????????? Where in the Bible does Jesus say that i am God or where Jesus says worship me.????? Give one unequivocal statement from your Bible any version. Does John 8:58 say i am God worship me?????????? I don't know if you understand my words? |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 15 February 2012 at 7:52am
|
Hughes,
Let us say for arguments sake that Jesus is God.God was born in Bethlehem to a women,she was pregnant for nine months. Who looked after the world while he was being born for nine months????? Then God was circumcised on the seventh day.Now imagine you were the male nurse,holding God's private part and cutting it with a knife (sic) Is this your concept of God????????? |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 15 February 2012 at 8:18am
|
Originally posted by truthnowcome
Originally posted by Hughes
First, everything is based on interpretation. You have an interpretation, and I have one and everyone reading this has one... so the point is which interpretation is correct and was intended by the original writer of the scripture? A couple of things to notice. One is no facts were given above that showed Jesus wasn't God, nor were any scriptures quoted that said that Jesus claimed not to be God, and further none of your comments addressed the verses I pointed out where Jesus did in fact claim to be the Almighty God and was worshiped as God by Martha and others. And no one I know of has ever claimed that Jesus was the biological Son of God. Mr. Hughes, this is not interpretation, this is Jesus (S) deceleration of who he is (FACT): JESUS (S) REVEALED HIS TRUE IDENTITY TO HIS DISCIPLES It is stated in Matthew 16:13-15: “When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?” Matthew 16:13-15 DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS STATEMENT MEAN: “But whom say ye that I am?”? Jesus (S) was about to let the disciples know who he is. V.16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matt.16:16 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.V.18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. Matt.16:17 FACT: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God. ( Romans 8:14) Jesus (S) was led by the spirit of God: FACT: "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven..., and abode upon him.”(John 1:32) FACT:"...I cast out devils by the Spirit of God then the kingdom of God is come unto you." (Matthew 12:28) FACT:"I can of mine own self do nothing " (John 5:30) JESUS (S) DECLARED WHERE WOULD BE THE CHURCH. Remember what Jesus (S) said in Matt.16:15-18? He said: “Bless art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Peter name was “Simon Bar-jona” and Jesus (S) change his name to “Peter” (Little Rock). The Rock represent Peter’s message; and upon this rock I will build my church. Peter was the only one knew who Jesus (S) was when he said: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” he understood that anyone led by the Spirit of God is the Son of God. THIS IS NOT INTERPRETATION: FACT: For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. (Matthew 12:50) Peter testimony when address the Jews: FACT: “Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approve of God” among you by miracles and wonders and sign, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you your self also know” (Acts 2:22) Jesus (S) said: FACT: “…Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” (John 20:16-17 AKJV) FACT: According to him, his Father is “OUR GOD and HIS GOD; He has a GOD, He said: “MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.” HE PRAYED TO HIS’ GOD: FACT: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and THERE PRAYED." (Mark, 1:35) I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU CALL THIS: ONE WHO HAS A “GOD’ AND PRAY TO HIM (HIS GOD) IS ALSO YOUR GOD! WAKE UPMY FRIEND! Once again, the passages in John are ignored, and the passages in Colossians. If we disagree that all things are interpreted to some degree or another, how much more will we disagree on complex things like theology? You quote how the bible claims that Jesus was also a man. No one disputes this. What you are avoiding is the crux of our disagreement. That Jesus is also God, and claimed to be God and was worshiped as God. And you continue to avoid dealing directly and forthrightly with the passages of holy scripture that make this clear. Why is that? In him all things hold together. |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 15 February 2012 at 8:41am
|
Originally posted by truthnowcome
Mr. Hughes, nice interpretation of Paul’s work but it didn’t go well with this: Jesus (S) a faithful witness BACK THERE IN THE BEGINNING: Ø John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; V.5 “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness… Rev.1: 4-5 As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty, and then the seven Spirits which is before the throne and Verse 5 says, “and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…” If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. <> Ø I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev.1:8 Who is this, Jesus (S)? No! This verse tie into Rev.1:4 FACT: …Grace be unto you, and peace, from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come (on judgment Day); “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; V. 5 “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, Rev.1: 4 (1) from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come (2) “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne (3) “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, FACT: You see that! The seven spirits were before Gods Almighty Throne and Jesus (S) was a “faithful witness”. Let us find out who really was on this throne: Revelation 4:2-11 and 5:1-7 tell us who was on the throne. Ø And immediately I (John) was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Rev. 4:2 Ø And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. Rev.4:3 Ø And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Rev.4:4 Ø And out of the throne preceded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Rev.4:5 Ø And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, Rev.4:9 Ø Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11 THE ONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE: Revelation 5 Ø And I saw in the right hand of “him that sat on the throne” a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. Rev.5:1 The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what he did with it? Let’s find out. Ø And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Rev.5:5 Ø And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6 Ø And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev.5:7 FACT: You see that? The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what happen with the book? It was taken by the lamb. So, who took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne? The Lamb! And who is sitting on the throne? God Almighty! Nothing new! It’s all in Revelation 1:1 Ø The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. Rev.1:1 Ø “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49) And who was Jesus (S)? Revelation 1:5 says: Ø “…Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…” AND WHO IS GOD ALMIGHTY? HE IS THE “CREATOR”: Ø “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11 Ø And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,” Rev.4:9 Br. zainool Again, no direct interaction with the actual scripture or arguments I presented. Now Revelation ok... Notice you only quoted part of the context again. You quoted, " I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev.1:8 " It continues, "17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." (NIV) So, who else can say that they are the "first and last, Alpha and Omega, and the Living one"? Only God almighty right? Check this out: Rev. 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." And again, "16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” It is clear from holy scripture that Jesus is described as almighty God, and claims to be Almighty God, and speaks the same words as Almighty God. |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 16 February 2012 at 8:49am
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Originally posted by iec786
John 8:58 " 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” You claim to speak English.I asked for a simple answer and you come with a verse which does not even have the word God in it.I suppose this is the sickness which went through the Jews and now it has spread among you Christians. Ok let us try again. As to your claim that Jesus wasn't God, that too isn't supported by the biblical text. ????????? Where in the Bible does Jesus say that i am God or where Jesus says worship me.????? Give one unequivocal statement from your Bible any version. Does John 8:58 say i am God worship me?????????? I don't know if you understand my words? Indeed, Jesus does claim to be God, as was understood by the hearers in that context. And later is worshipped, and he doesn't tell them to stop, ever! Now, it's not my goal to talk past each other. I love interaction. So it appears to me that the situation is this. You are attempting to take a Christian book, which Christians have, since the beginning, understood it's message. And you are attempting to say it doesn't say what we know it says. That we got the central message all wrong. Why is that? Why attempt to twist what is plainly stated in our book? It seems odd and out of place to do such a thing. If you'd like to present evidence that the central message was corrupted, then present your evidence. But, as for the Christians book... it plainly states that Jesus is God come in the flesh, and for that we are thankful that God has reconciled us to him by his son. Hughes,
Let us say for arguments sake that Jesus is God.God was born in Bethlehem to a women,she was pregnant for nine months. Who looked after the world while he was being born for nine months????? Then God was circumcised on the seventh day.Now imagine you were the male nurse,holding God's private part and cutting it with a knife (sic) Is this your concept of God????????? The first question is what type of God are we talking about? Are we talking about Christian theology or not? In Christian Theology, Jesus has two natures. He humbled himself and took upon himself the nature of man, so he is both Infinite God and earthly man. So, while it may not be completely understood, how an infinite God can do this, from our scriptures it is plain that this is what happened. So, the real question isn't "Who looked after the world for nine months?" The real question is don't you understand that an infinite God is fully capable of doing that and more. In essence, it appears that your concept of what God can do is limited. And indeed it was for the Jews at the time too. They had a hard time wrapping their head around it too. So it's understandable. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 16 February 2012 at 9:32am
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Originally posted by Kish
Originally posted by honeto
My quesstion to you in response to what you wrote will be: Did a single prophet of the OT ever mentioned that there is someone beside God named Jesus who is also God as you understand? Can you back up your claim with words of any OT prophet who has plainly and clearly said that? “Romans interpretation of a ‘man god’ you say?” You guys have no idea or comprehension or knowledge what-so-ever of the Holy Scriptures. Exodus 7:1 Consequently JEHOVAH said to Moses: “See, I have made you http://dnkjb.net/1189chapters/OT02EXO07.htm - God to Phar′aoh and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet. Does that answer your question? SMACK DOWN!!! AND HASAN IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND - AT LEAST ON THIS THREAD!!! HASAN YOU CANNOT KEEP RUNNING!!! Hi Kish, I smell dishonesty from you my friend.You posted a reply to my brother Hasan,and you deceived him. Why do you play with being dishonest.Does Christianity teach you to be dishonest. The Divine Name KJ Bible in PRINT is now being offered! click here. Refresh your browser to see updates. 1 And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet LOOK AT THE VERSE AND HAVE ANOTHER LOOK THE WORD GOD HAS A SMALL g does that answer you fantastic question to Hasan. You know the difference between the capital G and the small g . and in your post you gave a capital G GOD WITH A SMALL "g" : In Arabic, Hebrew and Greek there is no differentiation between a capital "G" for God, and a small "g" for god, as in the languages of the Western countries today; yet the Christians have played fast and loose when translating the Bible, i.e (a) "In whom the god (the Devil) of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not . . . " 2 COR. 4:4 (b) "And the Lord said unto Moses, See, 1 have made thee a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." EXODUS 7:1 Compare the above with JOHN 1:1, where the Christians have used capital "G"'s and "W"'s when referring to Jesus |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 18 February 2012 at 8:14pm
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IEC786, you are stalling!!!
Originally posted by IEC786
] 1 And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet LOOK AT THE VERSE AND HAVE ANOTHER LOOK THE WORD GOD HAS A SMALL g does that answer you fantastic question to Hasan. You know the difference between the capital G and the small g . and in your post you gave a capital G… GOD WITH A SMALL "g" : In Arabic, Hebrew and Greek there is no differentiation between a capital "G" for God, and a small "g" God or god in English still mean God/god or Elo•him in Hebrew or God/god or the•os′ in Greek. You are just stalling!!! Jesus is still a god or Elo•him. What does your Tanakh says? א וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה; וְאַהֲרֹן אָחִיךָ, יִהְיֶה נְבִיאֶךָ. 1 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'See, I have set thee in God's stead to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0207.htm - Exodus 7:1 My question still remains, does Jesus have a father or not? ------------- |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 18 February 2012 at 11:09pm
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<>
Mr. Huges, this is where I want you; that verse is a concoction. THAT VERSE WAS REFERRING TO AN ANGEL AND SOME ONE CONCOCTED IT AND ADDED: “I WAS DEAD AND NOW LOOK, I AM ALIVE FOR EVER…”. Let me show you! It mentioned: Ø “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:1&version=9 - A VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE: God “gives” unto him to “show” unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass…” and what he did? Verse 1 mentioned: “…and he (Jesus) sent and signified it by his ANGEL unto his servant John.” Jesus (S) did not come but he “sent and SIGNIFIED it WITH an ANGEL UNTO JOHN”; AND WHO JOHN SAW? It stated in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:12-13&version=9 - - 12-13 : Ø “And I (John) turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.” “One like unto the Son of man” And not the son of man! It was that “Angel” who was sent to signify the vision unto John and not Jesus (S)! It was conformed in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022:8-9&version=9 - : Ø “And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. 9 And he said unto me (John), see thou do it not: for “I am” thy fellow servant, and of thy brothering the prophet… “WORSHIP GOD” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022:8-9&version=9 - - Rev.22:8-9 : Same thing mentioned in Rev.1:17: Ø “And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last” Rev.1:17 Note: John did not worship the angel there; he just fell on his feet as dead. Rev. 22 Verse 8-9 that I have quoted above conforms that. Why he is the first and last, is because he was there in the beginning: Ø “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;” http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=re+3%3A14§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=re%203%3A14&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=re&ng=3&ncc=3 - - Rev.3:14 Also he is a “creation of God Almighty” and he has a “beginning”. That angel was here at the creation of Adam (S), to Lot (S) at Sodom and Gomorrah, when the Messiah (S) was born, when Muhammad (S) received his Revelation (see Q.97:4) and he is yet to come again at the end. He is, and was, and yet to come, he said: “I am the beginning and the end”. God Almighty doesn’t have a beginning; He God Almighty is absolute and eternal.
Originally posted by Hughes THE ABOVE IS NO "COMPLEX LIKE THEOLOGY"; IT IS FACT!! COMPLEX LIKE THEOLOGY MEANS TO "TWIST THE TRUTH".If we disagree that all things are interpreted to some degree or another, how much more will we disagree on complex things like theology? You quote how the bible claims that Jesus was also a man. No one disputes this. What you are avoiding is the crux of our disagreement. That Jesus is also God, and claimed to be God and was worshiped as God. And you continue to avoid dealing directly and forthrightly with the passages of holy scripture that make this clear. Why is that? In him all things hold together. Br. zainool ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 18 February 2012 at 11:32pm
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<>
Nice try Mr. Huges! YOU CHECK THIS OUT: (I HAVE ADDED BRACKET FOR YOU TO OVERSTAND) REVELATION 22:6-16 and Rev.1:1 6And he (THE ANGEL) said unto me (JOHN), These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God (NOT JESUS) of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. IN CONTEXT: Ø “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:1&version=9 - 7Behold, I (THE LORD GOD) come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I (THE LORD GOD) come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I (THE LORD GOD) am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. IN CONTEXT: Ø “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:1&version=9 - 16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
AGAIN IN CONTEXT: Ø John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; V.5 “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness… http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:4-5&version=9 - -5 As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty, and then the seven Spirits which is before the throne and Verse 5 says, “and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…” If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. Ø I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%201:8&version=9 - - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%201:8&version=9 - - Who is this, Jesus (S)? No! This verse tie into Rev.1:4 FACT: …Grace be unto you, and peace, from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come (on judgment Day); “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; V. 5 “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%201:3-5&version=9 - - (1) from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come (2) “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne (3) “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, FACT: You see that! The seven spirits were before Gods Almighty Throne and Jesus (S) was a “faithful witness”. Let us find out who really was on this throne. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%204&version=9 - and 5:1-7 tell us who was on the throne. Ø And immediately I (John) was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Rev. 4:2 Ø And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald. Rev.4:3 Ø And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Rev.4:4 Ø And out of the throne preceded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Rev.4:5 Ø And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, Rev.4:9 Ø Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11 THE ONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE: Revelation 5 Ø And I saw in the right hand of “him that sat on the throne” a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. Rev.5:1 The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what he did with it? Let’s find out. Ø And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Rev.5:5 Ø And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6 Ø And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. Rev.5:7 FACT: You see that? The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what happen with the book? It was taken by the lamb. So, who took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne? The Lamb! And who is sitting on the throne? God Almighty! Nothing new! It’s all in Revelation 1:1 Ø The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. Rev.1:1 Ø “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49) And who was Jesus (S)? Revelation 1:5 says: Ø “…Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…” AND WHO IS GOD ALMIGHTY? HE IS THE “CREATOR”: Ø “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11 Ø And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth
for ever and ever,” Rev.4:9
Originally posted by Hughes
THE ABOVE IS NO "COMPLEX LIKE THEOLOGY"; IT IS FACT!! COMPLEX LIKE THEOLOGY MEANS TO "TWIST THE TRUTH".
If we disagree that all things are interpreted to some degree or another, how much more will we disagree on complex things like theology? Br. zainool ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 22 February 2012 at 10:54am
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Originally posted by truthnowcome
Originally posted by Hughes
Again, no direct interaction with the actual scripture or arguments I presented. Now Revelation ok... Notice you only quoted part of the context again. You quoted, " I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev.1:8 " It continues, "17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." (NIV). Mr. Huges, this is where I want you; that verse is a concoction. THAT VERSE WAS REFERRING TO AN ANGEL AND SOME ONE CONCOCTED IT AND ADDED: “I WAS DEAD AND NOW LOOK, I AM ALIVE FOR EVER…”. Let me show you! It mentioned: Ø “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” Rev.1:1 A VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO NOTE: God “gives” unto him to “show” unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass…” and what he did? Verse 1 mentioned: “…and he (Jesus) sent and signified it by his ANGEL unto his servant John.” Jesus (S) did not come but he “sent and SIGNIFIED it WITH an ANGEL UNTO JOHN”; AND WHO JOHN SAW? It stated in Rev.1:12-13: Ø “And I (John) turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.” “One like unto the Son of man” And not the son of man! It was that “Angel” who was sent to signify the vision unto John and not Jesus (S)! It was conformed in Rev.22:8-9: Ø “And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. 9 And he said unto me (John), see thou do it not: for “I am” thy fellow servant, and of thy brothering the prophet… “WORSHIP GOD” Rev.22:8-9: Same thing mentioned in Rev.1:17: Ø “And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last” Rev.1:17 Note: John did not worship the angel there; he just fell on his feet as dead. Rev. 22 Verse 8-9 that I have quoted above conforms that. Why he is the first and last, is because he was there in the beginning: Ø “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;” Rev.3:14 Also he is a “creation of God Almighty” and he has a “beginning”. That angel was here at the creation of Adam (S), to Lot (S) at Sodom and Gomorrah, when the Messiah (S) was born, when Muhammad (S) received his Revelation (see Q.97:4) and he is yet to come again at the end. He is, and was, and yet to come, he said: “I am the beginning and the end”. God Almighty doesn’t have a beginning; He God Almighty is absolute and eternal. Originally posted by Hughes If we disagree that all things are interpreted to some degree or another, how much more will we disagree on complex things like theology? You quote how the bible claims that Jesus was also a man. No one disputes this. What you are avoiding is the crux of our disagreement. That Jesus is also God, and claimed to be God and was worshiped as God. And you continue to avoid dealing directly and forthrightly with the passages of holy scripture that make this clear. Why is that? In him all things hold together. THE ABOVE IS NO "COMPLEX LIKE THEOLOGY"; IT IS FACT!! COMPLEX LIKE THEOLOGY MEANS TO "TWIST THE TRUTH". Br. zainool Edited by truthnowcome - February 19 2012 at 6:53am It appears you're attempting the same sort of switching as before. Yet you didn't respond to it before, why should I point out the error again? Here you say, "Jesus (S) did not come but he “sent and SIGNIFIED it WITH an ANGEL UNTO JOHN”; AND WHO JOHN SAW?" Yet, the actual verse says, "HIS angel, not "an" angel. Why change it? Maybe because you realize that if Jesus has and controls angels, that is also what God does. Jesus acting as God in this passage doesn't support your view, which is why you must have changed your quote. I'm interested in truth. And it's clear from the passage that Jesus is God. And again you say, "that verse is a concoction. THAT VERSE WAS REFERRING TO AN ANGEL AND SOME ONE CONCOCTED IT AND ADDED: “I WAS DEAD AND NOW LOOK, I AM ALIVE FOR EVER…”. Yet you never show how it's concocted, or who added what exactly and when. What is your evidence for anything that was added? What manuscripts do you know of that don't have this phrase? Put up or don't make this false accusation. Further, you conclude based on your theory with no supporting evidence that, "“One like unto the Son of man” And not the son of man! It was that “Angel” who was sent to signify the vision unto John and not Jesus (S)! It was conformed in Rev.22:8-9:" Which again would be nice for you, but it's not based on facts or truth. The fact is that the same speaker claimed to be dead and was now alive, so unless you have concrete evidence for your accusation, it's false. And Jesus was speaking and he is claiming to be God, which is consistent with the other verses you have ignored. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 22 February 2012 at 8:59pm
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THE BIRTH OF "GOD"
"God" Was Created From The Seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3) "God" Was The Fruit of the Loins of David. "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." (Acts, 2:30) The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1) The Sex of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21) How Mary Conceived and Delivered "God": Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman: "The days were accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke, 2:6) - which means that she went through all the normal stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any different from other expectant mothers: "And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered." (Revelation, 12:2) "God" Sucked The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27) The Country of Origin of "God": Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew, 2:1) The Occupation of "God": Jesus was a carpenter by trade (Mark, 6:3), and the son of a carpenter. (Matthew, 13:55) The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5). "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14) The Wining and Dining "God": "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:19; Luke, 7:34) The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20) The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes" of Jesus. (Luke, 3:16). "Garments" and "coat" of Jesus. (John, 19:23) "God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed." (Mark, 1:35) "God" Was a Loyal Subject: Jesus was a good citizen; he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew, 22:21). He paid his tax regularly. (Matthew, 17:24-27) THE FAMILY OF "GOD" "God" Was the Son of Joseph: "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, THE SON OF JOSEPH," (John, 1:45) Brothers and Brothers-in-law of "God": "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence hath this man all these things?" (Matthew, 13:54-56). THE DEVELOPMENT OF "GOD" Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke, 2:40) Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "God": "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." (Luke, 2:52) "God" Was Twelve Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42) The Powerless "God": Jesus said, "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30) "God" Was Ignorant of the Time: Jesus said, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32) "God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry: And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13) "God Was Unlettered: "Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John, 7:14- 15) "God' Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he suffered." (Hebrews, 5:8) THE TEMPTING OF "GOD" The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13) The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke, 4:13) Like The Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15) True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James, 1:13) Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14) THE MISSION OF "GOD" The Confession and Repentance of "God": Before the beginning of his public ministry, Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist (Matthew, 3:13), which signified the confession of sins (Matthew, 3:6), and repentance from sins (Matthew, 3:11) "God" Did Not Come to Save the Sinners: "And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD BE CONVERTED, AND THEIR SINS SHOULD BE FORGIVEN THEM." (Mark, 4:10-12) THE RACIAL "GOD" "God" Was A Tribal Jew: "The Lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation, 5:5) "God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 15:24) Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6) According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (Matthew, 15:26) The Kingdom of "God": "And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33) The Titles of "God": "The King of the Jews". (Matthew, 2:2); "The King of Israel". (John, 1:49; 12:13) A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an HUNGERED." (Matthew, 4:2). "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he HUNGERED." (Matthew, 21:18). "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was HUNGRY." (Mark, 11:12) A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I THIRST." (John, 19:28) A Sleepy "God": "He was ASLEEP." (Matthew. 8:24). "He fell ASLEEP." (Luke, 8:23). "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, ASLEEP on a pillow." (Mark. 4:38) A Weary "God": "Jesus therefore, being WEARIED with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6) A Groaning "God": "He GROANED in the spirit, and was TROUBLED." (John, 11:33). "Jesus therefore again GROANING in himself cometh to the grave." (John, 11:38) A Weeping "God": "Jesus WEPT". (John, 11:35) A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be SORROWFUL and VERY HEAVY." (Matthew, 26:37). "Then saith he unto them, My soul is EXCEEDING SORROWFUL, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:38) THE "GOD" ON THE RUN "God" Was Panic-Stricken: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1) "God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54) "God" Has Shown A Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39) "God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59) THE CAPTURE OF "GOD" A Friend Betrayed The Secret Hiding Place of "God": "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus oft-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3) "God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13) "God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67) "God" Was Defenceless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said, "Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23) "God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They answered and said, He is guilty of death." (Matthew, 26:66) The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32) THE SUPPOSED END OF "GOD" The Dying "God": "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost." (Mark, 15:37) The "God" that was supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans, 5:6). "He was dead". (John, 19:33) The supposed Corpse of "God": "He (Joseph of Arimathaea) went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered." (Matthew, 27:58) The "Shroud" of "God": "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth." (Matthew, 27:59) The "Obituary" of the "Late" and Lamented "God": "Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man." (Luke, 23:47) Jesus is God because: (i) "HE SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD", and (ii) because "IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD". But according to the quotations of the Bible given above, we find that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He is, therefore, definitely NOT God! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests with this Christian. Either he must prove that Jesus is God, or he must admit that he is a polytheist, i.e., a believer in more than one God. WITH ALL THE TRICKS AND VERBAL LEGERDEMAIN OF HIS PROFESSION, HE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JESUS IS GOD!! He and his fellow-preachers in Christ, will never succeed in convincing the Muslims that Jesus was anything other than a natural man and a prophet of God, sent unto the house of Israel to bear the good news of the coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD, which prophecy was fulfilled with the advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wa Sallam)! |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 23 February 2012 at 8:06am
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Originally posted by iec786
Jesus is God because: (i) "HE SHARED THE NATURE OF GOD", and (ii) because "IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD". But according to the quotations of the Bible given above, we find that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY WAY LIKE GOD. He is, therefore, definitely NOT God! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests with this Christian. Either he must prove that Jesus is God, or he must admit that he is a polytheist, i.e., a believer in more than one God. WITH ALL THE TRICKS AND VERBAL LEGERDEMAIN OF HIS PROFESSION, HE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JESUS IS GOD!! He and his fellow-preachers in Christ, will never succeed in convincing the Muslims that Jesus was anything other than a natural man and a prophet of God, sent unto the house of Israel to bear the good news of the coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD, which prophecy was fulfilled with the advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wa Sallam)! Muslims may not be persuaded, but this doesn't negate the fact that he claimed to be both God and Man. The holy scriptures are consistent in this message, that by him and through him all things hold together. It's ok to disagree with scripture, but if one is interested in truth, then it's there for everyone to read. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 25 February 2012 at 10:46am
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It's ok to disagree with scripture,
If by your statement you mean i have posted trash well you are entitled to your opinion.What i have posted is from your Bible,and if you say i should disagree,then i am lost for words. The post is long and you have nothing to say or refute. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 February 2012 at 2:29pm
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Hughes, if any one says I am man and I am God, don't beleive him, plain common sense. It cannot be true, you can either be man or God. You cannot be both. God cannot be a man, or an elephant. God can be God, rest is only His creation. Hasan
------------- 39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?" |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 27 February 2012 at 5:06pm
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Originally posted by honeto
Hughes, if any one says I am man and I am God, don't beleive him, plain common sense. It cannot be true, you can either be man or God. You cannot be both. God cannot be a man, or an elephant. God can be God, rest is only His creation. Hasan
Indeed that is what I would say too if I wasn't presented with the evidence that he was God. John 10:22 "22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” John 20:26 "A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” 30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you maya believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (Quoted from the NIV) |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 28 February 2012 at 8:57am
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Originally posted by iec786
It's ok to disagree with scripture, If by your statement you mean i have posted trash well you are entitled to your opinion.What i have posted is from your Bible,and if you say i should disagree,then i am lost for words. The post is long and you have nothing to say or refute. Actually your post is a copy and paste from another http://www.islamworld.net/docs/neverwas.html - website , and the guy you copied didn't know what he was talking about. I refuted the main point, which was sufficient, since they weren't your ideas anyway. Taking the bible out of context doesn't provide evidence for your position it only undermines it. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 28 February 2012 at 9:58pm
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25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
ONE IN WHAT??????? CAN YOU NOT SEE ONE IN PURPOSE AND NOT ONE IN A SAUSAGE??? and you claim to be from the first world.Geez. Give one unequivocal statement where Jesus says I AM GOD or where he says WORSHIP me.I hope this is simple enough for you. 30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you maya believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 29 February 2012 at 9:46am
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Originally posted by iec786
25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” ONE IN WHAT??????? CAN YOU NOT SEE ONE IN PURPOSE AND NOT ONE IN A SAUSAGE??? and you claim to be from the first world.Geez. Give one unequivocal statement where Jesus says I AM GOD or where he says WORSHIP me.I hope this is simple enough for you. 30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you maya believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I have given you numerous passages where Jesus claims to be God, and the Spirit taught us he is God, that in him (Jesus) all things hold together. "Because I live, you shall live also. I am the resurrection and the life, who ever believes in me shall live." (John 14:19, John 11:25) You have ignored these passages, and repeated your same question. At what point do you acknowledge that the Christian Bible teaches Jesus is God. And is in disagreement with Islam? |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 29 February 2012 at 10:09pm
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My question to you.
Give one unequivocal statement where Jesus says I AM GOD or where he says WORSHIP me.I hope this is simple enough for you. Now have a look at what you answered. and the Spirit taught us he is God, Is that an unequivocal statement ??? that in him (Jesus) all things hold together. "Because I live, you shall live also. I am the resurrection and the life, who ever believes in me shall live." (John 14:19, John 11:25) Is that an unequivocal statement ??? A simple answer would be I am God,or worship me.My friend you know it does not exist. Now admit it. |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 01 March 2012 at 6:55pm
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Originally posted by iec786
My question to you. Give one unequivocal statement where Jesus says I AM GOD or where he says WORSHIP me.I hope this is simple enough for you. Now have a look at what you answered. and the Spirit taught us he is God, Is that an unequivocal statement ??? that in him (Jesus) all things hold together. "Because I live, you shall live also. I am the resurrection and the life, who ever believes in me shall live." (John 14:19, John 11:25) Is that an unequivocal statement ??? A simple answer would be I am God,or worship me.My friend you know it does not exist. Now admit it. Fact remains that it is and they are unequivocal statements. Jesus stated he was the "I AM" and those listening picked up stones because he was unequivocal in his statement that he was God. Christians from the time of Jesus and down through history have understood his unequivocal claims and statements. They are clear and unambiguous that He is God almighty and our saviour. Now, another fact is also present. You're not satisfied with Jesus' statement. You don't think it's unequivocal enough, apparently. If you really don't want to accept the plain evidence, that's fine. What is curious is why you continue this line of argument, even though it's been thoroughly refuted? |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 01 March 2012 at 6:56pm
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Originally posted by kish
My question still remains, does Jesus have a father or not? Is this how you and Honeto handle matters iec786, you post, post, post but never attempt to answer a question? Islam is your faith, can you at least back it up by answering the questions I ask in your own words without copying someone else's answer? If there is a language barrier fine but at least put forth the effort to do so. ------------- |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 02 March 2012 at 7:45am
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What answer are you looking for?????
If you want a Muslims perspective then the answer is emphatically NO.Jesus according to the Quraan has no farther. If you want according to the Bible then your answer is yes and his farther was Joseph the carpenter.He also according to your Bible has 66 grand fathers and he has an ancestry????. |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 05 March 2012 at 9:24pm
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Mr. Haghes, I give an explanation already why the bible ysed the terms “Jesus (s) sent” but you ignore it but let me put it this way:
When Jesus send out his disciples he told them: “Whosesoever sins ye (The disciples) remit, they are remited unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:23&version=9 -
Does that make his’ disciples Gods? No! Did they actually forgive sin? No! It is God almighty who forgives sins. Similarly, when the bible say Jesus (S) “sends his angel” it is God Almighty angels and Jesus (S) was instructed to give it to the angel to signify it to John. If you read it in context with rev. 4-5 It mentioned there: Ø John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; V.5 “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness… http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:4-5&version=9 - -5 As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty, and then the seven Spirits which is before the throne and Verse 5 says, “and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…” If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty.
Jesus (S) only a “FAITHFUL WITNESS”, I have explained that already.
The message was a “vision of Prophecy” unto John and the one who came to John was an “ANGEL”. I GAVE YOU THE VERSE TO BACK IT UP! Let me repeat it again: It stated in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:12-13&version=9 - - 12-13 : Ø “And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.” “One like unto the Son of man” And not the son of man! It was that “Angel” which was sent to signifies the vision unto John and not Jesus (S)! IT WAS CONFORMED IN http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022:8-9&version=9 - : EVIDENCE: Ø “And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. 9 And he said unto me (John), see thou do it not: for “I am” thy fellow servant, and of thy brothering the prophet… “WORSHIP GOD” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022:8-9&version=9 - - Rev.22:8-9 : The verse stated that the angel told John to “WORSHIP GOD THAT HE IS ONLY A MESSENGER CAME TO SHOW HIM THE VISION” Same thing mentioned in Rev.1:17: Ø “And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last” Rev.1:17 Note: John did not worship the angel there; he just fell on his feet as dead. Rev. 22 Verse 8-9 that I have quoted above conforms that. Why he is the first and last, is because he was there in the beginning and he is the “creation of God Almighty, he has a God: Ø “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;” http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=re+3%3A14§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=re%203%3A14&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=re&ng=3&ncc=3 - - Rev.3:14 Also THE ANGEL Is a “creation of God Almighty” and he has a “beginning”. That angel was here at the creation of Adam (S), to Lot (S) at Sodom and Gomorrah, when the Messiah (S) was born, when Muhammad (S) received his Revelation (see Q.97:4) and he is yet to come again at the end. He is, and was, and yet to come, he said: “I am the beginning and the end”. God Almighty doesn’t have a beginning; He God Almighty is absolute and eternal. HE ALSO CLAIMED TO HAVE A GOD: Ø 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Ø 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Revelation 3:11-12) Br. zainool------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 05 March 2012 at 9:34pm
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With the above evidence from the bible it is a fact that some one add it to the scripture; take in to consideration when they put together the message and call it “A COLLECTION OF BOOKS (BIBLE)” some 90 yrs.to 400 yrs. to compile and revise and edit it (but that another story to deal with).
Br. zainool ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 05 March 2012 at 10:02pm
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Originally posted by Hughes Come on Mr. Hughue, don't quote verse out of context to prove your opinion!Originally posted by iec786
25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” ONE IN WHAT??????? CAN YOU NOT SEE ONE IN PURPOSE AND NOT ONE IN A SAUSAGE??? and you claim to be from the first world.Geez. Give one unequivocal statement where Jesus says I AM GOD or where he says WORSHIP me.I hope this is simple enough for you. 30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you maya believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I have given you numerous passages where Jesus claims to be God, and the Spirit taught us he is God, that in him (Jesus) all things hold together. "Because I live, you shall live also. I am the resurrection and the life, who ever believes in me shall live." (John 14:19, John 11:25) You have ignored these passages, and repeated your same question. At what point do you acknowledge that the Christian Bible teaches Jesus is God. And is in disagreement with Islam? That simple mean mean on the Day of Resurrection he will be there and if you believe in his message you will have eternal life. He told you how in john 17: <> 1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven (HE IS TALKING TO THE ONLY ONE TRUE GOD IN HEAVEN), and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the ONLY TRUE GOD, and JESUS CHRIST, WHOM THOU HAST SENT. You must believe in the only one true God and Jesus Christ (S) who the onlt one true God has “SENT”. ONE WHO IS SENT WITH A MESSAGE IS A MESSENGER! TNC ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 05 March 2012 at 10:18pm
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<>
Now, if you want to play games with me Mr. Hughue then let’s play! You claimed this is Jesus (S): Ø “And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:13-15&version=9 - Similar description mentioned in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%207:9&version=9 - . Who is the Ancient of Days?
Ø “I beheld till the throne were cast dowh, and the Ancient of Days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame and his wheel as burning fire.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%207:9&version=9 -
Br. zainool ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 06 March 2012 at 10:51am
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Originally posted by truthnowcome
Mr. Haghes, I give an explanation already why the bible ysed the terms “Jesus (s) sent” but you ignore it but let me put it this way: When Jesus send out his disciples he told them: “Whosesoever sins ye (The disciples) remit, they are remited unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.” John 20:23 Does that make his’ disciples Gods? No! Did they actually forgive sin? No! It is God almighty who forgives sins. Similarly, when the bible say Jesus (S) “sends his angel” it is God Almighty angels and Jesus (S) was instructed to give it to the angel to signify it to John. If you read it in context with rev. 4-5 It mentioned there: Ø John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from “him” which is, and which was, and which is to come; “and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; V.5 “And” from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness… Rev.1: 4-5 As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty, and then the seven Spirits which is before the throne and Verse 5 says, “and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness…” If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. Jesus (S) only a “FAITHFUL WITNESS”, I have explained that already. Jesus sending disciples and Jesus sending his angels are quite different, I'm sure you would agree. Anyone can send another person, but only God can send "His" angels. Second, you wanted to look at the context of Rev. 1:4,5 so let's do that. Your argument is that Jesus is only a messenger. Let's see how that fits into the context. Jesus is called, a "Faithful Witness" by John, but is that all? What does the rest say? Look at verse 5 : "and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood," (NIV) So, it appears that not only is he the faithful witness, he also freed us from our sins by his blood. Wow, isn't that cool? What else can we learn from the context? It continues in verse, "17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." (NIV) Now isn't that interesting. This faithful witness who freed us from our sins by his blood, now is stating that he is the Living One, that he was dead and now is alive forever." Hmmm... sure sound like Jesus is talking like God doesn't it? "I am the first and the last." Hmmm... so how is your original argument going? According to the Book of Revelation, is Jesus only a faithful witness as you've claimed? No, it appears that he's much more. It says he freed us from our sins, and that he was dead and is now alive forever, and that he is the first and last, just like God Almighty said he was. Seems your argument that Jesus is only a faithful witness has failed to take into account the rest of the information in the Bible. Originally posted by truthnowcome
I gave you the evidence but you ignore it; it is the very chapter. The message was a “vision of Prophecy” unto John and the one who came to John was an “ANGEL”. I GAVE YOU THE VERSE TO BACK IT UP! Let me repeat it again: It stated in Rev.1:12-13: Ø “And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.” “One like unto the Son of man” And not the son of man! It was that “Angel” which was sent to signifies the vision unto John and not Jesus (S)! IT WAS CONFORMED IN REV.22:8-9: EVIDENCE: Ø “And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. 9 And he said unto me (John), see thou do it not: for “I am” thy fellow servant, and of thy brothering the prophet… “WORSHIP GOD” Rev.22:8-9: The verse stated that the angel told John to “WORSHIP GOD THAT HE IS ONLY A MESSENGER CAME TO SHOW HIM THE VISION” Same thing mentioned in Rev.1:17: Ø “And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last” Rev.1:17 Note: John did not worship the angel there; he just fell on his feet as dead. Rev. 22 Verse 8-9 that I have quoted above conforms that. Why he is the first and last, is because he was there in the beginning and he is the “creation of God Almighty, he has a God: Ø “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;” Rev.3:14 Also THE ANGEL Is a “creation of God Almighty” and he has a “beginning”. That angel was here at the creation of Adam (S), to Lot (S) at Sodom and Gomorrah, when the Messiah (S) was born, when Muhammad (S) received his Revelation (see Q.97:4) and he is yet to come again at the end. He is, and was, and yet to come, he said: “I am the beginning and the end”. God Almighty doesn’t have a beginning; He God Almighty is absolute and eternal. HE ALSO CLAIMED TO HAVE A GOD: Ø 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Ø 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Revelation 3:11-12) I didn't ignore your verses. I refuted your claim. Notice you quote, " And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last” Rev.1:17" And you stopped right there, because the next verse refutes your claim, "18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." (NIV) Oh well. Unless you want to continue to argue that the angel was dead, and the angel holds the keys of death and hades. Further, you say that Rev. 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. (Revelation 3:11-12)" You seem to think that Jesus saying he has a God means he can't also be God. Notice the end of the verse you quoted. Whose name will be written on these believers? And who writes the name? |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 March 2012 at 2:02pm
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Originally posted by Hughes
Originally posted by honeto
Hughes, if any one says I am man and I am God, don't beleive him, plain common sense. It cannot be true, you can either be man or God. You cannot be both. God cannot be a man, or an elephant. God can be God, rest is only His creation. Hasan
Indeed that is what I would say too if I wasn't presented with the evidence that he was God. John 10:22 "22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” John 20:26 "A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” 30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you maya believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (Quoted from the NIV) Hughes, you said: " Indeed that is what I would say too if I wasn't presented with the evidence that he was God. " And you call what you wrote evidence that he was God. How innocent you are, I must admit. Let us take John 10:22 where does it say that Jesus is God in that verse? or you are assuming that is says so because someone has told you so, or you take word Christ for God? How innocent. :25 continues with nothing that suggest he is claiming ot be God. Instead he is quoted to have said " the miracles I do in my Father's name". Remember that verse" to my Father and to my God" the words associated to Jesus in the same Bible. So Jesus do these miricles in God's name whom he has called father according to present day Bible translations. 31 and 33 show no claim by Jesus that he is God, instead these verses have two or more problems. 1- No one can ever stone or kill God, if you think God can be stoned or kill, you are either innocent to the bones or in a big blasphemy against God for which you will pay dearly one day unless you correct your path and ask for God's forgiveness. 2-Bible contents contradict why were Jews stoning Jesus. In one place it says that he claimed to be the king of Jews for which they wanted to stone him, in an other place the reasoning for the stoning is said t be because he was claining to be son of God, and the third place as you quoted " because he claimed to be God". So using logic and reasoing, God cannot be stoned or hanged by His own creation, have you fogotten? God is All Powerfull, All Capable. And three palces in the Bible, Jews re giving three different reasons to stone/kill him. So dear Hughes, you thought you have evidence, it is not, just in your own mind you thought it was. I am still waiting only for one verse to support your claim clearly, where Jesus has himself said, "I am God" and I will rest my case, otherwise I will warn you to not profess something on somone else behalf that they have not said or claimed, or you will pay for it dearly, fear for a day when your each action and word will be accounted for. May God of Jesus, Moses, David, Mohammed (pbut), and God of All that there is forgive our mistakes and guide us to what is right before its too late, Ameen. Hasan
------------- 39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?" |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 06 March 2012 at 9:16pm
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Originally posted by honeto
Originally posted by Hughes
Originally posted by honeto
Hughes, if any one says I am man and I am God, don't beleive him, plain common sense. It cannot be true, you can either be man or God. You cannot be both. God cannot be a man, or an elephant. God can be God, rest is only His creation. Hasan
Indeed that is what I would say too if I wasn't presented with the evidence that he was God. John 10:22 "22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33“We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” John 20:26 "A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” 30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you maya believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (Quoted from the NIV) Hughes, you said: " Indeed that is what I would say too if I wasn't presented with the evidence that he was God. " And you call what you wrote evidence that he was God. How innocent you are, I must admit. Let us take John 10:22 where does it say that Jesus is God in that verse? or you are assuming that is says so because someone has told you so, or you take word Christ for God? How innocent. :25 continues with nothing that suggest he is claiming ot be God. Instead he is quoted to have said " the miracles I do in my Father's name". Remember that verse" to my Father and to my God" the words associated to Jesus in the same Bible. So Jesus do these miricles in God's name whom he has called father according to present day Bible translations. 31 and 33 show no claim by Jesus that he is God, instead these verses have two or more problems. 1- No one can ever stone or kill God, if you think God can be stoned or kill, you are either innocent to the bones or in a big blasphemy against God for which you will pay dearly one day unless you correct your path and ask for God's forgiveness. 2-Bible contents contradict why were Jews stoning Jesus. In one place it says that he claimed to be the king of Jews for which they wanted to stone him, in an other place the reasoning for the stoning is said t be because he was claining to be son of God, and the third place as you quoted " because he claimed to be God". So using logic and reasoing, God cannot be stoned or hanged by His own creation, have you fogotten? God is All Powerfull, All Capable. And three palces in the Bible, Jews re giving three different reasons to stone/kill him. So dear Hughes, you thought you have evidence, it is not, just in your own mind you thought it was. I am still waiting only for one verse to support your claim clearly, where Jesus has himself said, "I am God" and I will rest my case, otherwise I will warn you to not profess something on somone else behalf that they have not said or claimed, or you will pay for it dearly, fear for a day when your each action and word will be accounted for. May God of Jesus, Moses, David, Mohammed (pbut), and God of All that there is forgive our mistakes and guide us to what is right before its too late, Ameen. Hasan
So, it's clear you can read the words, but without keeping it in context, the meaning is lost. The evidence is clear. Jesus said it clearly, so plain and clear in fact that those who heard him, understood exactly what he was saying. "I AM GOD" Now. You don't accept the evidence. Why is that? You think that God can't be stoned. And you think that I am arguing that God can't prevent his creation from stoning him. What you fail to understand is that God doesn't care about our righteousness, or how good we think we are, or how right we think we are. He doesn't care about all "right" things we do to justify ourselves. He cares about our hearts. He was and is trying to reach our hearts. This is why he humbled himself and took the form of Man, and humbled himself to be put to death in our place, by his blood we are freed from our sins, because we can't be forgiven any other way. What it appears you don't understand is that God can and did humble himself to take the punishment for our sin in our place, to show his great love for us. Of course God almighty could have done anything he wanted, he has all power, of course. But, using his great power he wants to reach our hearts so we understand and experience his great love. The Jews at his time didn't understand this either. They thought their Messiah would come with power and rule over the Romans at that time, so of course when the Messiah came as a humble servant to save the lost by a universal sacrifice, it didn't make sense to them either. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 11 March 2012 at 3:54am
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So, it's clear you can read the words, but without keeping it in context, the meaning is lost. The evidence is clear. Jesus said it clearly, so plain and clear in fact that those who heard him, understood exactly what he was saying. "I AM GOD" Now. You don't accept the evidence. Why is that? Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee. Matthew 21:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 21 (Whole Chapter) Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Ephesians 2:19-21 (in Context) Ephesians 2 (Whole Chapter) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. John 1:44-46 (in Context) John 1 (Whole Chapter) Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: Luke 24:18-20 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter) Mark 6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. Mark 6:3-5 (in Context) Mark 6 (Whole Chapter) |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 11 March 2012 at 7:47am
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Originally posted by iec786
So, it's clear you can read the words, but without keeping it in context, the meaning is lost. The evidence is clear. Jesus said it clearly, so plain and clear in fact that those who heard him, understood exactly what he was saying. "I AM GOD" Now. You don't accept the evidence. Why is that? Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee. Matthew 21:10-12 (in Context) Matthew 21 (Whole Chapter) Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Ephesians 2:19-21 (in Context) Ephesians 2 (Whole Chapter) John 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. John 1:44-46 (in Context) John 1 (Whole Chapter) Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: Luke 24:18-20 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter) Mark 6:4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. Mark 6:3-5 (in Context) Mark 6 (Whole Chapter) Was Jesus a Prophet? Yes. Was he a Teacher? Yes. Was he a Man? Yes. Was he also God almighty? Yes this is clear also from the scriptures I have given you. So, instead dealing directly with those scriptures you bring up others that I don't disagree with. |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 11 March 2012 at 11:12am
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Jesus can never be a God.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.Matthew 23 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:Acts 2 (King James Version) |
Posted By: Hughes
Date Posted: 12 March 2012 at 9:14am
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Originally posted by iec786
Jesus can never be a God. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.Matthew 23 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:Acts 2 (King James Version) You make a claim, "Jesus can never be a God." Yet you offer absolutely no supporting evidence for this. You continue to quote scriptures that talk about Jesus being a man. Which I agree, he was a man, and also according to the same scriptures which you have thus far ignored, he is also God Almighty come in the flesh. You only response thus far has been that it doesn't make sense, that he can never be a God. Prove it! |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 13 March 2012 at 8:29am
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My brother Hughes,
All this time that i have been talking to you i had a certain verse in my mind.One was according to the Quraan and one according to the Bible. You asked me to Prove it! Here it is in black and white. Surat Al-'Ikhlāş (The Sincerity) - سورة الإخلاص بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم 112:1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One, 112:2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge. 112:3 He neither begets nor is born, 112:4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent." Exodus 20 King James Version (KJV) Exodus 20 1And God spake all these words, saying, 2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 18 March 2012 at 6:20pm
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Peace to all! Mr. Hughes, You fail again to addresses my point which is: where I have established that Jesus (S) did not come but sent and signified the vision with “AN ANGEL”!!! The one that John saw was “THE ANGEL” THAT CAME TO SIGNIFIES THE VISION. I have pointed it out but you ignore the F A C T. HERE AGAIN: Now, I will begin quoting from the book of revelation 1: 1 where we will see the book of revelation was a vision of prophesy to John but it bear the name of Jesus (S), It mentioned: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:1&version=9 - In the verse above it stated that God Almighty gave Jesus (S) the revelation and that would be in Heaven. However, there is no such record in Islam that Jesus (S) received revelation in Heaven. It may be God Almighty wants us to acknowledge this vision as a revelation sent to Jesus (S). A very important point to note: God “gives” unto him to “show” unto his servant’s things, which must shortly come to pass, and what he did? Verse 1 mentioned: “…and he (Jesus) sent and signified it by his ANGEL unto his servant John.” Jesus (S) did not come but he “sent and signified it with an ANGEL unto John” and who John saw? It stated in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:12-13&version=9 - - 12-13 : “And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.” “One like unto the Son of man” And not the son of man! It was that “Angel” who was sent to signify the vision unto John and not Jesus (S)! It was conformed in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022:8-9&version=9 - “And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. 9 And he said unto me (John), see thou do it not: for “I am” thy fellow servant, and of thy brothering the prophet… “WORSHIP GOD” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2022:8-9&version=9 - - Rev.22:8-9 : Same thing mentioned in Rev.1:17: “And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last” Rev.1:17 Note: John did not worship the angel there; he just fell on his feet as dead. Rev. 22 Verse 8-9 that I have quoted above conforms that. Why he is the first and last, is because he was there in the beginning: 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name…And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;” http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=re+3%3A14§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=re%203%3A14&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=re&ng=3&ncc=3 - - Rev.3:11-14 The “Amen” is the same angel that spoke to John and he has a God, he is a “creation of God Almighty” and he has a “beginning”. That angel was here at the creation of Adam (S), to Lot (S) at Sodom and Gomorrah, when the Messiah (S) was born, when Muhammad (S) received his Revelation (see Q.97:4) and he is yet to come again at the end. He is, and was, and yet to come, he said: “I am the beginning and the end”. God Almighty doesn’t have a beginning; He God Almighty is absolute and eternal. Peter testimony when address the Jews: Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, “a man approve of God” among you by miracles and wonders and sign, which God did by him in the midst of you, as you your self also know” ( http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ac+2%3A22§ion=0&it=kjv&oq=ac%202%3A22&ot=bhs&nt=na&new=1&nb=ac&ng=2&ncc=2 - - Acts 2:22 ) And Jesus (S) said: "I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2013:16&version=9 - - John 13:16 ) Jesus answered them
and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207:16&version=9 - - John 7:16 ) “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command,
what I should say and what I should speak.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:49&version=9 - - John 12:49 ) “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” (John.5:30) Again, one who is sent with a message is a “messenger” and not God. In the above I have established the “one like the son of man” is an “angel” AND NOT JESUS (S). Christians claimed that it was Jesus (S) because of Verse Rev.1:18 which reads: “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.” “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore” That is a concoction! Angels don’t die. The truth is, They want to make Jesus (S) God and they some how add it to the book when they re write it into they so call original Greek where as it suppose to be in Aramaic (the mother tongue of John). The above explanation clearly shows that Jesus (S) didn’t came, but he “sent and signified it with an ANGEL unto John;” and that is whom John saw. As you can see all are distinct personality, First God Almighty: “Grace be unto you, and peace, from ‘him’ which is, and which was, and which is to come”; then the seven Spirits which is before the throne: “and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne”; and then Jesus Christ who is a Faithfull witness: “and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness”. If the seven Spirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. So the One, which is, which was and which is to come is “GOD ALMIGHTY” because God Almighty existed as he is, was here when Adam was created on earth and is yet to come in the end. In Rev. 1: 8 mentioned that! He is the ALMIGHTY: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY”. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%201:8&version=9 - - 8 The seven spirits were before Almighty God’s Throne and Jesus (S) was a “faithful witness”. In Revelation 4: 2-11 and 5:1-7 mentioned who was on the Throne, I have already ESTABLISHED THAT.
Br. zainool
------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 18 March 2012 at 6:57pm
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Mr. Hague, all of us have angels, in fact every human has 5 angels with him; 2 to write down his good and bad deeds, 2 to guard him from in front and behind him and 1 to inspire him (the same one Christians call the Holy spirit). The truth is Jesus never send any angels it was God Almighty who sends his angel; it mentioned in Rev. 6: 6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. It is from God Almighty where all the visions of prophesy come from that is why he mentioned it in verse 6…it was to in form every one that he is in charge of every things. It is in the very first Ch. 1-1 “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:1&version=9 - It is God Almighty who gives Jesus (S). Why God Almighty said He gives him? He said so because he want us to believe it as a Revelation of Jesus although Jesus (S) did not delivered it him self while he was on earth…He name the vision of prophecy “The Revelation of Jesus Christ”. The truth is it is God Almighty who sent and signified it with his angel onto John, not Jesus (S) as mentioned in revelation 22”6. 6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Who is the “ALPHA AND THE OMEGA”? God Almighty! It’s in Rev.1: 8: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the
ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which
was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY”. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%20%201:8&version=9 - - 8 NOT JESUS (S)!!!!! Br. zainool ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 18 March 2012 at 7:10pm
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Mr. Hughue, do you listen to your self? It doesn’t seem so. First you say he is God, now you acknowledge he is a “Faithful witness”, and then your God suddenly died; what up friend? CAN YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHO KILL YOUR GOD?
Br. zainool ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 18 March 2012 at 7:24pm
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The information and explanation I have put forth there is in no way shows that it was Jesus (S) that mentioned as the “one like the son of man; it was an angel…to add to that the description in revelation 13-15 was the same in the Book of Daniels Ch.7 9, and in 13-14 mentioned of “one like the son of man”: “And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:13-15&version=9 - Similar description mentioned in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%207:9&version=9 - and he was described as “The Ancient of Days: “I beheld till the throne were cast dowh, and the Ancient of Days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame and his wheel as burning fire.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%207:9&version=9 - I have ask you who is the Ancient of days and you didn’t answer me; that is because you know fully well if you answer me I will destroy all your argument with that. Never mind, I will do so. Now, if the “one like the son of man” that mentioned in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%201:13-15&version=9 - is Jesus (S) as you claimed and “Ancient of Days” is one and the same which Christians claimed that he is Jesus (S) also then who is this “other son of man” that “went” to him? It mentioned here in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%207:13&version=9 - “I saw is the night visions, and, behold, ONE LIKE THE SON OF MAN “CAME” with cloud of heaven, and “CAME” to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near him 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nation and language, should serve him (obey his message): His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not be destroyed.” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%207:14&version=9 - The “son of man” that went to the “ancient of days” was given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nation and language, should serve him (obey his message): His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not be destroyed. Who is he? If you say is Jesus (S), well, that would mean Jesus went to Jesus which is foolish! If we agree that the “Ancient of days” is an angel as I have explained above in Revelation 13-15, only then the “son of man” that went to the “Ancient of Days” can be consider as Jesus (S). GO FIGURE THAT OUT!!! Br. zainool ------------- LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES! |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 25 March 2012 at 10:34pm
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Originally posted by iec786
If you want a Muslims perspective then the answer is emphatically NO.Jesus according to the Quraan has no farther. But Adam has a father according to the Quran? How about Eve? If neither one has a father according to the Quran than the Quran is obviously incorrect and cannot be trusted!!! No one has ever proven that the Gospel or Jesus is wrong for saying that he has a father!!! No one has ever proven that the Gospel or God is wrong for saying that he has a son. If the Quran disagrees some 1600 years later, I’m not really surprised at all. Not even the Quran can prove the Gospel wrong in saying that Jesus has no father with any real evidence to support it. If the angels such as Gabriel are sons of God according to the Holy Scriptures who is there father according to your Quran? Kish ------------- |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 26 March 2012 at 9:24am
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But Adam has a father according to the Quran?
No you are taking that out of a hat.You need to give us your source's,what verse and chapter from the Quraan. How about Eve? As above. No one has ever proven that the Gospel or Jesus is wrong for saying that he has a father!!! Kirsh please go back and check the idea of Jesus as Gods only begotten son has been refuted in several posts. If the angels such as Gabriel are sons of God according to the Holy Scriptures who is there father according to your Quran? According to the Quraan it talks of the creator and not of the created. Your Bible is emphatic in Exodus 20:1-5 Thou shall have no other Gods before me. 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, Period. Kish please in future if you say something from the Quraan please give the relevant verses.Stop quoting from your head .This is serious and not something to play with. |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 26 March 2012 at 2:08pm
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Kish, can you quote where Quran says that Adam has a father as you claim. Hasan ------------- 39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?" |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 26 March 2012 at 7:32pm
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Name a son or a daughter who has no father ------------- |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 27 March 2012 at 8:33am
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Adam
Eve Melchisadak the High priest of salem |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 29 March 2012 at 11:18am
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Only the Quran disagrees with this statement in Geneses 3:38
[son] of E′nosh, [son] of Seth, [son] of Adam, [son] of God. It is for this reason the Revelation or citation in the Quran is not from a divine source and that the Quran is the first book for Muslims. Far as Melchizedek, show me your references in which you agree with? You can’t pull a name out of your hat and not have some sort of references as evidence to support your statement. I’ll wait for your reference about Melchizedek, I gave you Adam, [son] of God as my reference. ------------- |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 30 March 2012 at 8:49am
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Kish
I do not know what you looking for? SONS OF GOD : The Bible ascribes sons by the tons to God. (a) "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD." LUKE 3:38 (b) "That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose. ". . . when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." GENESIS 6:2 and 4 (c) ". . . Thus saith the Lord, Israel is MY SON even my FIRSTBORN." EXODUS 4:22 (d) ". . . and Ephraim is my FIRSTBORN." JEREMIAH 31:9 (e) ". . . Thou (O David) ART MY SON; this day have I (God) BEGOTTEN thee." PSALMS 2: As for MELCHISEDEK : This High Priest of Salem has qualities which outshines even Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life . . ." HEBREWS 7:3 (These attributes only befit God! |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 30 March 2012 at 8:34pm
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Originally posted by iec786
Kish I do not know what you looking for? I'm not looking for anything. I'm simply stating that Adam like Jesus was one of God's son which Muslims deny. Just because Muslims find that hard to accept does not make it wrong but based on the Holy Scriptures Muslims have no reason not to believe. It's only because the Quran tells you not to believe that is not good enough for a book that came hundreds of years after. ------------- |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 30 March 2012 at 11:17pm
| So how many Sons did God have and who were their Mothers.I suppose they all had different mothers? |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 02 April 2012 at 9:07am
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Originally posted by iec786
Kish I do not know what you looking for? I would like for you to make up your mind, first Muslims say God has no sons then they say he do, which is it? Second, the question was did Adam have a father, I proved to you that he did Geneses 3:38. Can Muslims prove that Adam was fatherless, without going against God's written word, no! Are Muslims really submitting to God like they think they are? Did Melchizedek have a father and a mother, if not prove to the forum how he was conceived or born? ------------- |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 April 2012 at 2:59pm
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Originally posted by Kish
Originally posted by iec786
Kish I do not know what you looking for? I'm not looking for anything. I'm simply stating that Adam like Jesus was one of God's son which Muslims deny. Just because Muslims find that hard to accept does not make it wrong but based on the Holy Scriptures Muslims have no reason not to believe. It's only because the Quran tells you not to believe that is not good enough for a book that came hundreds of years after. Kish, have you done playing ring aroudn the rosy? so now you say that God has two sons, one is Adam and one is Jesus? Also confirm that there are no other son(s) God has? Please confirm, before I procede, I don't like ring around the rosy. Love you, Hasan ------------- 39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?" |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 03 April 2012 at 9:20am
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I would like for you to make up your mind, first Muslims say God has no sons then they say he do, which is it?
God has no Sons period.The Quran says 1. Say (O Muhammad ()): "He is Allah, (the) One. 2. "Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks). 3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten; 4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." and your Bible says, 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: Not even your Jesus. Second, the question was did Adam have a father, I proved to you that he did Geneses 3:38. Kish i will answer it but you answer first if God was Adams father who was the Mother? Did Melchizedek have a father and a mother, if not prove to the forum how he was conceived or born? According to the Bible Melchizedek had no beginning no ending,he had no mother and no father. He is higher then your God Jesus. This is the person you should be worshipping. |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 03 April 2012 at 7:38pm
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Originally posted by honeto
Please confirm, before I procede, I don't like ring around the rosy. How can we precede when you haven't even answered my questions yet, here they are again . . . Can Muslims prove that Adam was fatherless? Did Melchizedek have a father and a mother, if not show and prove to the forum how he was conceived or born? ------------- |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 03 April 2012 at 9:52pm
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KISH Allah in your Bible GENESIS 1 VERSE 1 THE WORD ALLAH IS MENTIONED TWICE THIS IS A REPRODUCTION OF YOUR BIBLE IN ARABIC GENESIS 1 VERSE 1.DO NOW ACCEPT ISLAM?????????
فِي الْبَدْءِ خَلَقَ اللهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالارْضَ. وَكَانَتِ الارْضُ خَرِبَةً وَخَالِيَةً وَعَلَى وَجْهِ الْغَمْرِ ظُلْمَةٌ وَرُوحُ اللهِ يَرِفُّ عَلَى وَجْهِ الْمِيَاهِ. وَقَالَ اللهُ: This is from the Bible in Arabic.اللهُ |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 04 April 2012 at 8:24pm
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Geneses was originally written in Hebrew NOT Arabic brother.
But, here are my questions again . . . Can Muslims prove that Adam was fatherless? Did Melchizedek have a father and a mother, if not show and prove to the forum how else he was conceived or born? ------------- |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 05 April 2012 at 11:12pm
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Geneses was originally written in Hebrew NOT Arabic brother.
AND KISH READ HEBREW A HEBREW BIBLE????? come now Kish be reasonable.The book you hold in your hand is a translation.You are looking at a Jewish book translated into Greek into english and all other languages. You do not have a choice but to accept that the word Allah is in your Bible. Can Muslims prove that Adam was fatherless? You do not have to be a rocket scientist or a Muslim to know besides Adam was there any other person? Adam had no father.Adam had no father. Can Muslims prove that Adam was fatherless? yes the Quraan says Adam was created from clay. Born= from a women created=made. Did Melchizedek have a father and a mother, if not show and prove to the forum how else he was conceived or born? MELCHISEDEK : This High Priest of Salem has qualities which outshines even Jesus Christ (peace be upon him). "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days nor end of life . . ." HEBREWS 7:3 (These attributes only befit God!) |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 13 May 2012 at 6:17pm
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Originally posted by Iec786
yes the Quraan says Adam was created from clay. Then the Quran is truly an uninspired book because here is what the Holy Scriptures said thousands of years earlier in Luke 3:38 [son] of E′nosh, [son] of Seth, [son] of Adam, [son] of God. If you continue to look at it in human terms you will never get it. Souls give birth not the spirit of God. Jehovah God is the creator of human life and therefore is the father of every human being or creation. ------------- |
Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 14 May 2012 at 8:34am
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Originally posted by Kish
Originally posted by Iec786
yes the Quraan says Adam was created from clay. Then the Quran is truly an uninspired book because here is what the Holy Scriptures said thousands of years earlier in Luke 3:38 [son] of E′nosh, [son] of Seth, [son] of Adam, [son] of God. If you continue to look at it in human terms you will never get it. Souls give birth not the spirit of God. Jehovah God is the creator of human life and therefore is the father of every human being or creation. And God created Jesus as he created all of the above.Who created????????? God. |
Posted By: Kish
Date Posted: 15 May 2012 at 9:45am
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According to Jesus and the Gospel which was here before Muhammad, the "Comforter" is not Muhammad. In fact it is not even a person, it is a "Spirit"
So the Quran again is not given you accurate information and Allah is not the God of Jesus or the "Nation of Israel" he is the God of Muslims not of the Holy Scriptures because what Muhammad teaches is totally contrary to what Jesus taught in the Gospel.
That is why all Muslims are looking for another Gospel to fit the teachings of Muhammad but till this day till this year 2012 they are still without one. So instead they try to miss-quote and apply the Gospel we have today to match Muhammad's Quran. To do that they have to accept half the Gospel whether they like it or not although the Gospel or the Old Testament says nothing of Islam, it's teachings, it's prophet or it's god.
Now Is The Time For True Submission
Repent for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn - near. . .
Kish
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Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 16 May 2012 at 10:07am
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COMFORTER TO BE A MAN
If I take the liberty of quoting the prophecy under discussion, with an emphasis on the pronouns, you will agree without any persuasion that the coming Comforter was to be a man and not a ghost. Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: Please count the number of HE's in the above verse. There are SEVEN! Seven masculine pronouns in a single verse! There is not another verse in the 66 books of the Protestant Bible or in the 73 Books of the Catholic Bible with seven masculine pronouns, or seven feminine pronouns, or with seven neuter genders. You will agree that so many masculine pronouns in one verse ill befits a Ghost, holy or not! NINE MASCULINE PRONOUNS The only other place an author has unknowingly used so many masculine pronouns for this mighty Messenger Muhummed (pbuh) is given below: "HIS GENTLE DISPOSITION, HIS AUSTERITY OF CONDUCT, THE SEVERE PURITY OF HIS LIFE, HIS SCRUPULOUS REFINEMENT, HIS EVER-READY HELPFULNESS TOWARDS THE POOR AND THE WEAK, HIS NOBLE SENSE OF HONOUR, HIS UNFLINCHING FIDELITY, HIS STERN SENSE OF DUTY HAD WON HIM, AMONG HIS COMPATRIOTS, THE HIGH AND ENVIABLE DESIGNATION OF AL-AMIN, THE TRUSTY." for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come. John 16:13 AL-AMIN the Faithful, the Trustworthy, "even the Spirit of Truth" (As-Saadiq) (John 14:17). This expression is a figurative way of saying that SPEAKING TRUTH would be so characteristic of him that people would regard him as TRUTH PERSONIFIED: exactly as Jesus (pbuh) said aboot himself, "I am the way, the truth and the life . . ." (John 14:6), that these noble qualities are personified in me. Follow me! But 'when he the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13), then you must follow him! But prejudices die hard, therefore we must work harder. But believe me, with the laser truth that Allah has given us, we can change the world with only a fraction of the energy that the Christian is expending. I have consistently been using the King James Version in my Biblical quotations, but for greater clarity, I give below, alternate renderings from some different versions of the above emphasised sentence: Muhummed (p.b.u.h.) the Natural Successor to Christ (p.b.u.h.) Page 52 REFINEMENT, HIS EVER-READY HELPFULNESS TOWARDS THE POOR AND THE WEAK, HIS NOBLE SENSE OF HONOUR, HIS UNFLINCHING FIDELITY, HIS STERN SENSE OF DUTY HAD WON HIM, AMONG HIS COMPATRIOTS, THE HIGH AND ENVIABLE DESIGNATION OF AL-AMIN, THE TRUSTY." "Spirit of Islam," by Sayed Amir Ali, page 14. SOURCE OF REVELATION Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth! for He Shall Not Speak from Himself; But Whatsoever He Shall Hear, That Shall He Speak. John 16:13 1. for he will not speak on his Own Authority, but will tell only what he hears. The New English Bible 2. He will not speak On His Own; He will Speak Only What He Hears. New International Version 3. for he will not be presenting His Own Ideas, But He Will Be Passing On To You What He Has Heard. The Living Bible This "Spirit of Truth," this Prophet of Truth, "Al-Amin," will not be speaking spiritual truths on his own impulse, but he will speak on the same basis as his previous Comforter - Jesus (pbuh) had spoken: For I speak not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me the commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. . . . even as the Father hath saith unto me, so I speak. John 12:49-50 |
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 May 2012 at 8:35pm
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Kish, you wrote in response to brother ice786, who has a lot of patience with you, may Allah bless him: "According to Jesus and the Gospel which was here before Muhammad, the "Comforter" is not Muhammad. In fact it is not even a person, it is a "Spirit" Again, your this assumption is incorrrect as well, even according to the Bible. How? Very simple, about comforter Bible says "will come" while we know that according to the same Bible the holy spirit have already been with those of God. Also, this quote fits perfect, as prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was bringing what is the continuation of the same message: "14 The Spirit of truth will bring glory to me, because he will take what I have to say and tell it to you." Fits like the glove, except some language/translation hickups, as this is only trasnlation of a translation....of a . Hasan ------------- 39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?" |