Print Page | Close Window

Muslim Women and 'Canadian Values'

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22306
Printed Date: 01 October 2014 at 11:58pm


Topic: Muslim Women and 'Canadian Values'
Posted By: abuayisha
Subject: Muslim Women and 'Canadian Values'
Date Posted: 13 December 2011 at 6:55am
http://rabble.ca/sites/rabble/files/node-images/National%20Post%20Racism.jpg">Canadian%20State%20Racism%20against%20Muslims

“Allowing a group to hide their faces while they are becoming members of our community is counter to Canada’s commitment to openness, equality and social cohesion,” he explained. http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/nick-day/2011/12/we-hate-niqab-minister-kenney-and-barbara-kay-protect-canadian-value?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rabble-news+%28rabble.ca+-+News+for+the+rest+of+us%29 - http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/nick-day/2011/12/we-hate-niqab-minister-kenney-and-barbara-kay-protect-canadian-value?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rabble-news+%28rabble.ca+-+News+for+the+rest+of+us%29

 




Replies:
Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 03 January 2012 at 8:02am
Face veils have no place in Western countries. They dehumanize women and this should not be tolerated. We want open communities where people can see each others faces.




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 03 January 2012 at 11:58am
Well Matt from an Islamic legal perspective I don't believe Muslim women must veil, however there is a difference of opinion on this matter.  For those Muslim women who feel obligated to veil, and are doing there best to obey their religion; and in the interest of freedom of religious expression, why should it not be tolerated?  Are Western countries not traveling a slippery slope of blatant religious discrimination?  What next?  Will having a long beard dehumanize men?  Does a religious vow of celibacy dehumanize men and women?


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 03 January 2012 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Face veils have no place in Western countries. They dehumanize women and this should not be tolerated. We want open communities where people can see each others faces.


 
Matt Browne,
 
Such matters have already been explained to you at length. In spite of that, promoting these ideas is spamming the forum. If you have any concern, start a thread in a relevent section. Comply with the guidelines. 


-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 January 2012 at 5:43am
Disagreement is not spam. And it is not a violation of the guidelines. Mature people can handle dissent. The topic here is Canadian values. Such values include a society where everyone shows his or her face. I'm totally aware that many Muslims disagree with this particular value. We do have a clash of values here, no doubt.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 23 January 2012 at 5:21pm
Muslim Group asks Government to expand Burka Ban
 
...According to reports in the http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=14r1hb5cf/EXP=1328577398/**http%3A//news.nationalpost.com/2012/01/23/widespread-support-for-burka-ban-jason-kenney-says-muslims-salute-minister-for-courageous-move/ - National Post and the http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=1323bvit4/EXP=1328577398/**http%3A//www.torontosun.com/2012/01/22/expand-burka-ban-muslim-canadian-congress - Toronto Sun, a prominent grassroots Muslim organization paid tribute to Kenney, Sunday at an event at a Toronto Hotel.

The http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=127181oug/EXP=1328577398/**http%3A//www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/whoweare.html - Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC) hosted the shindig and threw praise at the Minister.

"You have taken a very courageous step in banning the burka from citizenship ceremonies," Farzana Khan, former MCC president, told the minister.

She then asked the minister to go a step further and introduce legislation similar to Quebec's http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=13nmep5rk/EXP=1328577398/**http%3A//www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/785036--quebec-niqab-bill-would-make-muslim-women-unveil - Bill - 94 which essentially bars Muslim women from receiving or delivering public services while wearing a niqab...

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/muslim-group-asks-government-expand-burka-ban-194129032.html - http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/muslim-group-asks-government-expand-burka-ban-194129032.html


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 23 January 2012 at 8:14pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Canadian_Congress - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Canadian_Congress
http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20050201.pdf -


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 24 January 2012 at 7:13am
This is very encouraging, Reepicheep.

This is how I view the issue:

Muslims demand respect for the Prophet. Well-meaning non-Muslims do show respect, for example by abstaining from drawing pictures of him. Well-meaning non-Muslims don't want to hurt the feelings of Muslims and rightly so.

Now non-Muslims also demand respect for their values, traditions and customs. Well-meaning non-Muslims do show respect, for example by abstaining from wearing face veils in Western countries. Well-meaning Muslims don't want to hurt the feelings of non-Muslims and rightly so. A society with people hiding their faces in public does hurt us. This creates very strong emotions. We want a society built on love, kindness, generosity and thriving communities. Our faces convey our emotions and help us interact with each other. Friendly faces do build trust.

Please respect our values too. And don't call our desire to protect our values spam. Be fair.


-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 24 January 2012 at 10:07am

Well, generally speaking our "values" should also respect a person's sense of right and wrong, as well as ensuring equal rights for all.  To deny a Muslim woman her religious right to practice her faith isn't a cultural clash, but unfair, unethical and bigoted. 

"Bans like this lead to a lose-lose situation," said Judith Sunderland, senior Western Europe researcher at Human Rights Watch. "They violate the rights of those who choose to wear the veil and do nothing to help those who are compelled to do so."



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 24 January 2012 at 8:17pm
Matt, I am curious, why does anyone need to see their faces?  Trust me, most of them won't really talk to you either as they tend to not want many interactions with men who they are not married to or related to.  They view their physical body/ face as a private matter. 

-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 January 2012 at 7:23pm
I am curious why would Muslim women in fundamentalist practice would want to take a  oath of a secular Canadian citizenship?

Why would anyone want to be part of the society that doesn't respect you?

If it is economics then it is a pathetic scene!



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 27 January 2012 at 9:44pm
SignReader, how have you been?  Some of these women are likely Canadian - born and raised.  What a sad commentary for people to be forced to migrate for religious freedom of expression.  I happen to see economics, as well as education excellent reasons to live in the West.  Perhaps this law will be successfully challenged in the courts and overturned. 


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 30 January 2012 at 7:25am
Hayfa, maybe this helps understand the feelings of people like myself who are born and raised in Western countries:

As a Christian I have the right to draw pictures of the Prophet Muhammad. I choose not to exercise this right for two reasons. I want to be respectful towards other religions and cultures. And I don't want to hurt the feelings of Muslims.

Muslim women have the right to wear a face veil in public (burka or niqab). They can choose not to exercise this right in non-Muslim countries for two reasons. They want to be respectful towards other religions and cultures. And they don't want to hurt the feelings of non-Muslims, for example non-Muslim Canadians.

Fortunately none of the Muslims in Germany wear face veils. About 20% choose to wear a headscarf covering their hair. Which is fine. This allows us to see the faces of our fellow human beings. I'm always shocked encountering fully cloaked women, for example in London. It triggers strong negative emotions. It hurts.

We need to see the faces of our fellow human beings. Why? Because we are human. It's part of human nature. A very large region of the brain exists for the sole purpose of reading other people's faces. This helps us convey emotions for example. Have you ever noticed someone on a train for example looking out the window seeing something nice like a sunrise in the morning? A smile lighting up her face. And it makes us smile too.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 30 January 2012 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Matt Browne


Muslim women have the right to wear a face veil in public (burka or niqab). They can choose not to exercise this right in non-Muslim countries for two reasons. They want to be respectful towards other religions and cultures. And they don't want to hurt the feelings of non-Muslims, for example non-Muslim Canadians.
 
Here we have a textbook example of ethnocentrism.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 01 February 2012 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

SignReader, how have you been?  Some of these women are likely Canadian - born and raised.  What a sad commentary for people to be forced to migrate for religious freedom of expression.  I happen to see economics, as well as education excellent reasons to live in the West.  Perhaps this law will be successfully challenged in the courts and overturned. 


I am hanging in there! Alhumdulillah thanks... Pray all is well on your side

Back to the subject: Why would a Canadian born woman need a oath of citizenship which is automatic in the US and Canada as opposed e.g., Saudi Arabia or similar well off places but sparsely populated.

If the immigrants don't like to follow the host country's standards then they don't have to sign up for the visa and or residency or citizenship!

My experience with wife's foreign friends she made through the religious get togethers is plain horrible particularly who were in veils and super religious funk. She has been taken to the cleaners for thousands of dollars by selling her ponzi schemes. I have waited long enough and left with no choice but to take them to the court of law before the the statute runs out.

I am sure the judge is not going to let their veils fool him.

Do you have any ideas?

More later!




-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 02 February 2012 at 2:30am
I guess I don't understand why it hurts you?  It has little to do with you and the fact they want privacy. 

-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 06 February 2012 at 10:16am

Matt brown, u keep giving example that u choose not to draw pictures of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h).....". But if ur a Christan than its not ur right or choice but an "Obligation" of not to humiliate any Prophet as they r all Messengers of God, and not bcoz of "Muslims dont like it". And than u compare this with Muslim woman veil...." but Matt, its is a religous right of a Muslim woman that she may exercise, When does a regional/cultural thoughts limits a religious belief? Why laws are pass to forbade a woman from her right? Why ethical issues (Grey a.) are given black & white distingusion? Why Grey areas r dealt so strictly while other areas (like drawng pictures...&others..) are left causal? Why does a freedom of expression held true only for people othr thn Muslims? Why can't a Muslim woman express her thoughts and belief out in public?


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 07 February 2012 at 5:41am

Assalamu Alaikum,

 

Here is a relevant article:

 

http://www.iviews.com/Articles/articles.asp?ref=IV1202-5004 -  

May Allah (SWT) guide us all.

 

Peace

--------------

Lift the Niqab Ban
2/7/2012 - Opinion Social - Article Ref: IV1202-5004
Number of comments:
Opinion Summary: http://iviews.com/comments/action.lasso.asp?-db=services&-lay=comments&-format=search.asp&-sortfield=Ref&-sortorder=Descending&-error=error.asp&-op=eq&SubjectID=IV1202-5004&-op=eq&PublishFlag=X&-op=eq&rating=F&-token=Agree&-max=10&-find - Agree :   http://iviews.com/comments/action.lasso.asp?-db=services&-lay=comments&-format=search.asp&-sortfield=Ref&-sortorder=Descending&-error=error.asp&-op=eq&SubjectID=IV1202-5004&-op=eq&PublishFlag=X&-op=eq&rating=A&-token=Disagree&-max=10&-find - Disagree :   http://iviews.com/comments/action.lasso.asp?-db=services&-lay=comments&-format=search.asp&-sortfield=Ref&-sortorder=Descending&-error=error.asp&-op=eq&SubjectID=IV1202-5004&-op=eq&PublishFlag=X&-op=eq&rating=I&-token=Neutral&-max=10&-find - Neutral :
By:
http://www.iviews.com/Articles/action.lasso.asp?-Search=search&-database=Services&-Table=Magazine&-noresultserror=error.asp&-Response=search.asp&-MaxRecords=10&-SortField=Pdate&-SortOrder=Descending&-op=eq&PFlag=X&-op=cn&S=V&-op=cn&search=Asad%20Latif - Asad Latif
Iviews* -


In many nations, Niqab has been banned. And there is a growing apprehension in some others that it should be banned, citing various reasons - ranging from security threat to women's oppression. They look over it condescendingly, misconstruing that it oppresses women. Islamic teachings dictate that Muslim women must wear Hijab (headscarf) and cover her entire body with the exception of her face and hands when they are around strangers, away from their loved ones, or exposed to unrelated men. There is a difference of opinion on this matter, and many Islamic scholars stipulate that covering of the face (Niqab) is also required. 

Muslim women wearing the Niqab do so to obey the Creator, to protect their beauty for their spouses, and to guard themselves from the undue advances of the men. If the women want to wear Niqab in order to fulfill their religious obligation that emanates from their faith, they should be welcome to do so. 

Some claim that one can commit a crime and get away with that because of wearing Niqab. Well, criminals can wear any kind of clothing to evade the security system, including but not limited to, large colored sunglasses, fake moustaches and beards, wigs etc. Are we going to ban all these apparels? In fact, the bigger question should be as to how many Muslim women wearing Niqab committed crimes or were caught as criminals? And if any (or many) committed any crime, what should be done to ensure security? 

The security concern may be dealt with by checking their identification or apply other technological means to deter any future crime. When there is a need to identify, the Muslim women can show their faces in a private area, preferably to other women. That serves the purpose of identification check. But, outright banning the religious attire punishes everyone without any sound reasoning. And that is certainly not justice. 

A nation cannot claim to promote freedom of expression, yet practice blatant religious discrimination. It is not in the interest of any community, nation, and the world to curtail these rights that are enshrined in the constitution of a civilized nation. Such missteps impede the efforts to promote tolerance and peaceful coexistence. 

As Thomas Jefferson aptly made his point: 

"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."

The point is this is women's prerogative to wear what they want to. Wearing the Niqab is the choice of the Muslim women themselves. It is their right to practice their faith the way they see it right. It cannot be forced upon them. Since it is their choice to wear it, exercising the choice doesn't amount to their oppression per se. It would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise. 

Not responding to this concern may jeopardize other civil liberties that we seem to have taken for granted. Where would this wave of Islamophobia stop? How would it stop when we refuse to act constructively? Freedoms were achieved after tremendous sacrifices. How could we lose them so cheaply? And more importantly, in this time of huge unemployment, recession, budget deficits, not to mention many other societal ills, should this really be our priority? 

We should not let this happen. We should set an excellent example for our fellow human beings and our generations to come. Let us act in the positive direction....

*****

Asad Latif has an engineering background and is a writer based in Toronto, Canada. He writes on diverse issues - social, political, economic, religious, and technological. He can be reached at alatif2002yahoo.ca.



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 07 February 2012 at 9:57pm
 

-

SHEEMA KHAN

Hate it if you want, but don’t ban the niqab

sheema khan

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail
Published

“For much of modern history,” he wrote, “what characterized governments in Europe and North America, and differentiated them from those around the world, was not democracy, but constitutional liberalism. The ‘Western model’ is best symbolized not by the mass plebiscite but the impartial judge.”

Inherent in this model are safeguards against the “tyranny of the majority,” so inalienable rights of a minority are protected against the whims of the majority. As John Stuart Mill argued, a social body has no right to coerce or restrict the individual unless the individual causes harm to others.

Given that constitutional liberalism is the bedrock of Canadian values, what are we to make of Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney’s diktat concerning women wearing the niqab at citizenship ceremonies?

Mr. Kenney is cynically exploiting public fear and ignorance to further stigmatize an easy target. False assumptions abound: Women are coerced to wear it; the niqab has nothing to do with Islam; the women must have something to hide; they must be brainwashed. Yet, talk to a few niqabis and you’ll find the opposite. The majority, while decrying oppression and trumpeting “Canadian values,” is prepared to deny a group of women their fundamental rights.

According to Mr. Kenney, the niqab hinders verification of the recitation of the citizenship oath. Why the focus on the niqab? Are the lips of all citizenship candidates scrutinized at these ceremonies? Why not simply allow an oath officer to hear the recitation, after proper identification?

Sex and the niqab: both forbidden during the hajj. As is fasting. Is Mr. Kenney qualified to make rulings on matters deemed complex by Islamic jurisprudence?

Not coincidentally, the minister chose to make his comments while the Supreme Court of Canada considers whether a woman should be allowed to testify in court with her face covered. Governments decline comment on cases before the court to give the appearance of judicial independence. Yet, a minister of the Crown says the niqab is “bizarre” and has no place in public testimony.

The Harper government has done a 180-degree turn on the niqab. In 2009, the Prime Minister’s Office said: “In an open and democratic society like Canada, individuals are free to make their own decisions regarding their personal apparel and to adhere to their own customs or traditions of their faith or beliefs.” On Monday, Mr. Kenney said: “We are all coming together as Canadians in a public ceremony and if you don’t like it, if you feel uncomfortable, then maybe you chose the wrong country in the first place.” He added: “I’m sure they’ll trump up some st**id Charter of Rights challenge.” Imagine, a minister of the Crown publically denigrating those who seek their constitutional rights.

One may detest the niqab. But are we prepared to abide by the fundamental principle of defending opinions with which we disagree to safeguard the rights of individuals from coercion? Our past forays into exclusionary politics have resulted in shameful policies against minorities, not to mention the cultural genocide of the aboriginal population.

Inas Kadri had her niqab torn off by a woman in a Mississauga mall in the summer of 2010. The incident did not shake her faith in Canada. Rather, she re-evaluated her role as a citizen: “Living with people in this society, I think I should work harder to educate people about my religion.” Fellow niqabi Sana Mutawi summed it up best: “We want our kids to be brought up in an understanding community, so they will be good citizens.”

Hate the niqab all you want. But banning it is not a Canadian value.



Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 14 February 2012 at 3:35am
Why can't an atheist woman express her thoughts and her belief in freedom of speech out in public? Freedom of speech allows her to draw anything she likes. Or say anything that she likes. Including what many Muslims would consider to be an insult.

The reason is that in a globalized world with hundreds of religions and hundreds of worldviews there's potential for contradicting beliefs. And we need to make the best of it. By avoiding to hurt each others' feelings. And showing respect.

In flourishing communities in Western societies based on caring, kindness and generosity we need to see the faces of our fellow human beings. If we don't, it hurts. Some people are even scared. Others get terribly angry. I try not to get angry when I see a faceless woman walking by, but I can't ignore my emotions of pain such encounters create. It hurts because I have a need to see the faces of the people in the society I live in. Islam as a religion does not dictate face veils. Only culture does.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 15 February 2012 at 5:44am
abuayisha: I don't understand the point you are trying to make with your post dated january 23 which contained two links about the Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC).
 
If you are saying that the members of MCC are "moderate muslims", then of course I agree with you.
 
If you are saying that the members of MCC are not muslim because they are moderate, then that is a matter between you and Allah.
 
*********************
 
Matt Browne wrote: This is very encouraging
 
For the most part, muslims in North America (especially Canada) are very moderate.  This is due to two reasons:
 
(1) while only approximately 20% of muslims world wide are Shiite, over half of Canadian muslims are Shiite.  Shiites, in general, are much more moderate that Sunni muslims.  In particular: many of Canada's muslims belong to the Ismaili and Ahmadiyya sects, who believe in the separation of "church and state". 
 
(2) many of Canada's Sunni muslims (for example, those who belong to MCC) are also very moderate.  Obviously, muslims who hate religious and political freedom as practiced in Canada would (for the most part) never move to Canada in the first place.
 
******************************
 
Hayfa wrote: why does anyone need to see their faces?
 
There are three reasons why women should show their faces during the Canadian Citizenship ceremony:
 
(1) so that Canadian officials and those spectators in attendance can confirm the womens' identities,
 
(2) so that Canadian officials and those spectators in attendance can confirm that the women are actually speaking the citizenship oath and not keeping silent, and
 
(3) as a sign of respect for their fellow Canadians.
 
Anyone seeking Canadian citizenship who has so little respect for Canadians that they refuse to show their faces during a five minute citizenship ceremony have no reason to become Canadian in the first place.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 15 February 2012 at 7:14am
Originally posted by Reepicheep

abuayisha: I don't understand the point you are trying to make with your post dated january 23 which contained two links about the Muslim Canadian Congress (MCC).
 
 
In your post the MCC was said to be a 'prominent' organization, and not being from Canada myself, and having never heard of Muslim Canadian Congress, I offered our forum readers additional clarity as to who they are, this assuming others may also not know them as well.


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 15 February 2012 at 9:58pm
Matt Browne, Islam doesnot dictate to veil the face, true. Islam does give option to veil the face aswell but this act 'was' highly recomended/complursury to the Wives of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) as is mention in Quran chapter: 33.
Matt, I do agree with what u hav said in ur last post tht we should reduce the conflict among us but than just consider tht passng out banning laws won't help it. Those who are drawng pictures are doing ths in utter chaos of whatever thy think, tryng to humiliate every Prophet and Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) in particular. But thn u cant pass out laws to ban such people as "freedom of speech" will get sabotage. All such issues arises due to diffrnce of thought & belief, its an ethical issue so plz dont give it a legal picture. We may get hurt from the things we dont approve or feel offended but thn wht shall we do? Should we pass out laws? I thnk we shld develop mutual understndng and try to cope with eachother as much as possible. We both hav diffculty with it bt lets put it togethr.

See Matt, my whole pt. of sayng all is tht today thy r banning veil, but God forbid if tomorow thy say to ban othr dress code like wearng scarf or loose, long colthes thn ths will be very serious issue as Islam has explicit recomendation to women as all. Forfeiting religious partice (whch is a sign modesty aswell), concern us. So let just keep it moderate nd sort it out more causully rathr thn formally. I do agree tht whr face identificaton is cmplursury (like in citizenshp cere.) thn it must be dne without any objection but out in public plz dont make it cmplursury.


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 15 February 2012 at 10:15pm
Reepicheep, I m bit curious with wht u said as a ''moderate muslims''..bcoz to my understndng either there r practsng muslims or non-practsng ones. Who r these moderate ones? Yes, I do agree tht most of us muslim are weak at performanc whlie othrs are hypocrates ...thn wht is the moderate muslim?


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 16 February 2012 at 1:28am
Im curious abt MCC...Wht thy r tryng to propogate by supportng same sex marriage?? and wht is ths equality mania? Arent men and women seperate gender havng thr own emtional & mental capablities nd limitation with it? Islam does cover ths need, Islam goes for Equity rathr thn equality b/w gender. Don't get confuse with cultural dominance in certain region whr people exagurate over certain things while ignorng othr imp issues. In real life Woman does hav privlage over certain things & so rightly Islam caters it, whr as Men hav privlage ovr certain things & so Islam caters it aswell and as u see tht one would be privlaged over othr in a given situation. And yes, Islam clearly disticnt the Desires from Nessceity and gernally prohibts Act of desires as thy r step stone to the followngshp of Shatan(devil).
Now wht this MCC r doing, i dont get it..supportng same sex marriage, whn Islam straightly prohibt same-sex intrcourse/marriage and Adultry..thn wht r thy doing...adding new things to Islam..?? Nd im still curious abt their othr things tht r mention in abv link...i wonder wht eles thy r doing


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 16 February 2012 at 5:13am
m.sumair wrote: either there r practsng muslims or non-practsng ones. Who r these moderate ones?
 
Why are you asking me this question?  It has nothing to do with me.  Rather, it is an issue between you and Allah.
 
If there are certain people who call themselves muslim who you are accusing of NOT being muslim because they have beliefs different from yours, then that is an issue Allah will deal with on the Day of Judgement.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 16 February 2012 at 7:07am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4IMYALbLVc -


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 16 February 2012 at 10:42am
My apologies Reepicheep u mistook my writings. I didnt mean to offend u or anybody. I asked who r moderate ones?irrespective of any people or belief. And my immediate next post in whch i "asked" tht Wht MCC is all about..is ths wht thy do? Ths is how moderate ones are?
I asked u who the moderate ones are bcoz u conitinously mention it in ur pervious post(plz refer it bck) so i was curious whch moderate ones u r reffrng to...and my humble request im nt here givng any judgement or statements, these are only for ALLAH to do neither im considerng my deeds to anyone I knw wht mess im in...so my friend stay calm, go thourgh various post and thn consider,.. whom ur refrng as moderate?


Posted By: Reepicheep
Date Posted: 16 February 2012 at 12:22pm
m.sumair wrote: I do agree tht whr face identificaton is cmplursury (like in citizenshp cere.) thn it must be dne without any objection
 
m.sumair wrote:  my understndng either there r practsng muslims or non-practsng ones. Who r these moderate ones?
 
M.Sumair, you say that muslim women should uncover their faces during citizenship ceremonies.  Abuayisha thinks that muslim women have the right to refuse to uncover their faces during citizenship ceremonies.
 
So, using my terminology: on the issue of women uncovering their faces during citizenship ceremonies, I say that your belief is more moderate than what Abuayisha believes.
 
If I understand you correctly, using your terminology: you are saying that you are a practising muslim (because you believe women should uncover their faces during the ceremony) and that Abuayisha is a non-practising muslim (because he believes women have the right to keep their faces covered during the ceremony).
 
Correct?


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 17 February 2012 at 4:18am
Interesting post, Reepicheep. So are you saying that the Shiites who established the totalitarian theocracy in Iran are the exception? And it would mean that moderate Sunni countries like Jordan and Turkey are the exception? I was always under the impression that both forms of Islam have moderate and ultra-conservative forces.




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 17 February 2012 at 4:27am
Sumair, I agree that laws against face veils are not the best solution. I would also prefer that conservative Muslims who choose to live in Western countries show respect for their host country and therefore also choose not to wear face veils. But if some remain stubborn maybe there is no other way. Face veils in France had led to millions of people getting more and more angry and scared of Islam, so politicians had to act. The situation is even more pressing because the vast majority of women wearing face veils are forced to do this against their will, which is a human rights violation. This also prevents women from getting jobs. Imagine a mayor of a village wearing a face veil. How can she interact with her citizens on the street? Human rights violations are a fact every day in Saudi Arabia where women are treated like cattle. The same was the case in Afghanistan under Taliban rule. But we can't allow women to be treated like that in France.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 17 February 2012 at 4:59am
I think it's a mistake to assume that

moderate Muslims = non-practicing Muslims

conservative Muslims = practicing Muslims

So what is the difference between moderate and conservative?

The answer is complex and there are also different forms of moderate or liberal Islam. This is how I understand it, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

Moderate Muslims believe in an evolving Islam meaning that a new context requires a reevaluation of common interpretations of the Quran. Conservative Islam rely on a fixed mindset with all rules and interpretations frozen on the 7th century level not to be changed.

Moderate Muslims focus on spiritual Islam and see political Islam as one opinion in a democracy where majority rulings are the law. They also believe in the separation of state and religion. Conservative Muslims often challenge this view.

To moderate Muslims the place of women in Islam, traditional gender roles in Islam and Islamic feminism are likewise major issues. For this reason, liberal Muslims are often critical of traditional Islamic law interpretations which allow polygyny for men but not polyandry for women, as well as the traditional Islamic law of inheritance under which daughters receive less than sons. It is also accepted by most liberal Muslims that a woman may lead the state, and that women should not be segregated from men in society.

Tolerance is another key tenet of moderate Muslims, who are generally open to interfaith dialogue and conflict resolution with such communities as Jews, Christians, Hindus, and the numerous factions within Islam.

Wikipedia lists the following moderate Muslim intellectuals who focused on religious reform: Sayyid al-Qimni, Nasr Abu Zayd, Abdolkarim Soroush, Mohammed Arkoun, Mohammed Shahrour, Ahmed Subhy Mansour, Edip Yuksel, Gamal al-Banna, Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im, Ahmed Al-Gubbanchi, Mahmoud Mohammed Taha, and Faraj Foda, the last two were killed after apostasy claims which most of them have been accused of by traditional Islamic scholars.




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 17 February 2012 at 2:05pm
Ohk....Reepicheep &Matt Browne its gud to hear frm u..

Well Reepicheep, u didnt undrstood whn i said abt "veil off the face" & neither u get wht Abuayisha
said abt "the rights of women". We both r on same side, whn i
say veil off the face thn i assumed tht her right of modesty will be secured & wht
Abuayisha said its ture tht she shld not veil off if, whn she feel insecure abt her modesty. Now
is it praticsng or non-praticsng side i wonder?? Dont u thnk tht Pratices are Affirmative things
with real intention to 'Perform'? Whn Does two opinions makes
persn eithr praticng one or non...? I thought it was the Act
tht displays all... nd honestly (ref. my previous posts aswel) it was MCC's act tht concerns me..

Reepicheep, wht u said abt moderate ones (as by ur
undrstndng), No u r wrong. Allow me to clear the undrstndng, a Muslim (i.e. Follower of Quran & Sunnah "in
its ful/entirety") is by default a moderate person, u don't need
to add "moderate" with a Muslim. Muslim lives a reasonble
and sensible life thy neithr exagurate ovr thngs nor thy
under-provide any thing, thy r loyal to ALLAH & His comandments are Final, the Sunnah are illustration of The
Commands & helps Muslim to adhere with the command.

Muslim doesnot add or reform Islam
bcoz he knw tht Islam is complete and eternal, anything
whch he is unable to get doesnt mean tht Islam needs correction bt it means thts his understndng
& knowledge is limited (and with the time he will fix it)... Now those who talk abt addng(or correctng) new thing to Islam, Well....i wonder wht thy r upto..Aren't thy satisfied with
the Islam as it is?


Posted By: m.sumair
Date Posted: 17 February 2012 at 2:21pm
Matt Browne wht u hav said in ur post its mix plate of correct and wrong for sme ur right while othr nt.....nd i must say tht to follow Islam one has to be open minded i.e. ready to accept his short comings undrstnd the nature, ratify his action........


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 18 February 2012 at 7:49am

I don’t believe Muslim women are required to veil their face, however those Muslim females who do believe that religious modesty and their faith makes veiling necessary, I respect their right to freedom of religious expression.  Canada as a western democracy in my estimation should also respect, and protect these women’s right to religious expression.  The Communist government of China has banned fasting, wearing veils or growing beards for Muslim government employees and while clearly objectionable, we at least understand given China is a communist state.  What harm is there for Canada, holding lofty democratic values, to simply make concessions to accommodate these ladies expression of their religion? They would only need a female official to conduct swearing in oath.  Not to mention, that it is only a tiny minority of Muslim women who veil there face anyway.



Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 February 2012 at 7:55am
I'm not satisfied with Islam as interpreted in Sudan, Saudi Arabia or Iran. I'm not sure I understand the rest of your post. Would you do me a favor and run a spell checker before posting? Thanks!

-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 20 February 2012 at 8:01am
Abuayisha, face veils are not part of Canadian culture and does violate the dress code. Islamic countries also have dress codes. In addition, face veils harm human interaction and society as explained above. And in most cases women wearing face veils are forced to do this against their will, which is a human rights violation. If Muslims remain unwilling to compromise this will lead to a lot of trouble. It will make people in the West more and more angry and scared. Islam will become a religion to be feared. And I think you and I agree that this is not what we want.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 20 February 2012 at 11:48am
Well Matt, I am certainly not a Psycholocogist, but you certainly appear to project your own feelings as that of societies, as well as your personal opinion in
lieu of data.  In other words, who says religion is not a part of Canadian culture, and how do you know most women wearing veils are forced?  Is Matt's fear and irritation of veiled woman somehow suggestive that Western societies are all also angry and scared as well?  Your views are simply intolerent and prejudiced in my estimation. 


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 20 February 2012 at 10:16pm
Having this discussion based on a liberal blogger's rant  stirring up something which isn't going to solve anything. A piece of advice for the Muslim crowd when assisted from liberals you might end up with strange bedfellows who surly mess up your faith in the process.

Lets be real for a moment get the facts of the citizenship scenario.
Here are the wordings of the Canadian Oath!
I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II - Elizabeth II , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_of_the_Canadian_sovereign - Queen of Canada , Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada - Canada and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Citizenship_%28Canada%29#cite_note-PW-9 -

IMHO a Muslim taking oath with full consciousness is in fact nullifying his own allegiance to his or her own faith i.e., Kalima.

 Isn't it comical to visualize a veiled Muslim woman doing this to the crowned head of the Anglican church with Indian Jewels or may be with a fancy hat some times.
Statistically the greatest number of immigrants are from the subcontinent that got rid of the Brits colonial rule and be free from the Anglican church's superiority.
All the self righteousness after landing on the Canadian shores by the veiled women either by choice or forced by the relatives reeks of pure and simple hypocrisy. I would say they are better off to stay on as a permanent residents
if have true understanding on what one is doing, I am saying religiously speaking. I wouldn't take this oath unless I am interested in the benefits  citizenship provided. It is living off the OPM. Does true faith allow taking the benefits that you didn't earn? People with little understanding have no choice but act like the fundamentalists being in denial.
Back to veil issue that came down as part of the following has been totally misunderstood!
33:59 (Asad) O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters, as well as all [other] believing women, that they should draw over themselves some of their outer garments [when in public]: this will be more con­ducive to their being recognized [as decent women] and not annoyed. But [withal,] God is indeed much- forgiving, a dispenser of grace!

In the west it is working in reverse to their detriment cuz it puts the target on the Muslims' backs.

 This http://www.theblaze.com/stories/belgium-politician-daughter-receive-death-threats-over-muslim-veil-bikini-ad-campaign/ - degrading constant source of heartburn is not helpful in making Muslim contributions noticeable. The Muslims need to prioritize their battles and this of course is not the one! Unless some masochistic tendencies are prevalent.
Just look at the Muslim world right now I don't need to itemize the ills!
It absolute futility to plead the secular democracy for putting on the veil that is absolutely pathetic!
They let the people immigrate to work and pay taxes and not throw a monkey wrench in the machine called the capitalist world.

First migrating to live under the Queen whose forebears fought to demolish the Muslim Khilapha and then taking the oath of allegiance to that head of the Anglican Kingdom!
Of course
God indeed is much forgiving!

-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 21 February 2012 at 8:21am

SignReader you are certainly welcome to discuss your opinion of purdah (face veil), and that's all I and others are doing as well.  This is a discussion board and certainly not a venue for setting Canadian policy or prioritizing battle plans.  If you are suggesting that taking an oath will invalidate a Muslim's faith; this is overreaching beyond Canada's decision to discriminate against Muslim women, which is the issue under discussion.  Granted, some immigrants have become disillusioned with the West, however to insinuate that the many millions of Muslims who live in the West and make honest and significant contributions to Western societies, as well as their own home countries, are hypocritical, for accepting full citizenship is simply incorrect.  Your comment about 'so they will not be annoyed' (33:59) is well taken.  I also feel that in the West it will have, and is having the reverse effect, however I still view it as the women's right to choose - no pun intended.



Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 22 February 2012 at 6:58am
Well, Abuayisha, I am certainly not a religious expert, but Muslims who demand freedom of religion without supporting it are hypocrites. I have yet to meet a Muslim here on Islamicity who supports freedom of religion with all the consequences.

"Freedom of religion is a principle that supports the freedom of an individual or community, in public or private, to manifest religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance; the concept is generally recognized also to include the freedom to change religion or not to follow any religion. The freedom to leave or discontinue membership in a religion or religious group is also a fundamental part of religious freedom, covered by Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights."

So, who is in favor of granting a Muslim the right to become a Christian?

For my part I can say that a Christian has a right to become a Muslim. That's freedom of religion.

Now if Muslims can't do the same that's intolerance to say the least.

Disrespecting local dress codes is intolerance to say the least.

Calling Christians infidels is intolerance to say the least.

Killing praying Christians on Christmas is intolerance to say the least.

Killing Muslims who decided to become Christians is intolerance to say the least.

You and I can disagree about face veils in Canada. That's pluralism. But the accusation of intolerance is a serious one.

So, do you support freedom of religion?



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 22 February 2012 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

So, do you support freedom of religion?
 
   “Let there be no compulsion in religion.  Truth has been made clear from error.  Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks.  And God hears and knows all things.”  Quran- 2:256
 


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 27 February 2012 at 1:54pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j4y2kFBnnH4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=j4y2kFBnnH4


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 11 March 2012 at 9:42am
Unfortunately, quite a few people in the West have a very negative view of Islam. We should work together to change this perception. People need to see the friendly face of Islam. Pun intended.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 11 March 2012 at 7:00pm
Maya Angelou - “Perhaps travel cannot prevent bigotry, but by demonstrating that all peoples cry, laugh, eat, worry, and die, it can introduce the idea that if we try and understand each other, we may even become friends.” 


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 07 June 2012 at 9:57am
A great quote. Thanks for sharing. Sorry that it took me so long to rediscover this thread. My post were about trying to understand each other.


-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 07 June 2012 at 12:37pm
Thumbs%20Up Welcome back Matt!  You had me worried about you....


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 12 June 2012 at 2:42am
Thanks, Abuayisha, it's good to be back!



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 June 2012 at 2:15pm
Just thought I would weigh in with my thoughts...
Each individual country gets to set the laws of its land.  Essentially one would hope that its laws support majority vote of the people.  Either way those who choose to live in that country are subject to the laws of that country however they are set, and in democratic societies majority sentiment should rule.  Is Canada a majority Muslim country?  No... it is a country settled by the French and English and they are responsible for the established government system.  Anyone entering the country is then subject to that system.
My thoughts... respect the country in which you are given to live.
In Saudi Arabia(and other Islamic countries) non-Muslims have no rights or say, and they know that when they go there.  Just because a country is democratic does not mean minorities should be allowed to over run it.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 14 June 2012 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by abuayisha


   “Let there be no compulsion in religion.  Truth has been made clear from error.  Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks.  And God hears and knows all things.”  Quran- 2:256


This is so often cited by Muslims and yet actions speak louder than words.
The Muslims who quote it seem to miss the part about
"God hears and knows all things"
... not humans.

God is the One to judge whether a person's heart is true or false... not man.
If there is no compulsion in religion why is it a death offense in Islam for a person to choose not to be a Muslim?  On this point Muhammad contradicts himself.
Actions speak louder than the words when a person is killed for choosing what to believe.

Only God has the right to condemn.  Man does not 'know all things'.


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 15 June 2012 at 7:59am
Caringheart: "If there is no compulsion in religion why is it a death offense in Islam for a person to choose not to be a Muslim?  On this point Muhammad contradicts himself."

Greetings!

This is incorrect. There is no death offense in Islam for a person to choose not to be a Muslim. To learn or discuss further this matter, please start a thread in a relevant section.


-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 15 June 2012 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by peacemaker

Caringheart: "If there is no compulsion in religion why is it a death offense in Islam for a person to choose not to be a Muslim?  On this point Muhammad contradicts himself."

Greetings!

This is incorrect. There is no death offense in Islam for a person to choose not to be a Muslim. To learn or discuss further this matter, please start a thread in a relevant section.


I do not wish to start a new thread.  It is relevant to this thread because I am responding to something another poster wrote in this thread.  They said that there is no compulsion in religion.  Is it not true that it is a death offense for a Muslim to leave his religion?
Regards,
Caringheart


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 15 June 2012 at 2:47pm
True when the verse was revealed within the same context of   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Treason - High Treason  .

The context of the verse was during wartime and one leaving his religion meant joining the opposing side in the conflict, thus committing treason.  No one is forced to become a Muslim and there is no imposition of the death penalty for apostasy. 



Posted By: Wardah
Date Posted: 26 June 2012 at 8:42am
Well,  in western countries where people follow their hearts and even they are allowed to dress up in whatever way they want, and it does not matter how much of thier skin and even thier privat body parts are visible, than why thier is a restriction for the person who want to cover her body part even if it is a 'Face' ? it should not bother other people at all. How about a "turban" the people from Sikh religion wears it, does it not dehuminized the men??? I personally do respect all the religions and I do not mind when people want to follow thier religion or thier culture.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 26 June 2012 at 2:38pm
I am disappointed to see that many of my posts, which I put a great deal of time and thought into, have been deleted, so this is obviously not a forum for open discussion but rather a censored media.  I am disappointed that I can not find any site to have discussion with Muslims that is open to expression of all thoughts and sharing of all information to allow individuals to reach their own conclusions.  The Bereans were commended for always seeking the Truth in all things so they might know that they belong to the One God.

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

I find it enlightening to observe the constant need for this censoring which you do not find in all places.  Some do not fear to have the truth tested.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 8:23am
You're wrong, Wardah. There are dress codes in Western countries. You can't walk around downtown naked. You can't enter a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet. You can't wear shorts in an expensive restaurant. A teacher can't teach her class wearing a bikini. You can't wear a t-shirt walking into a CEO's conference room. A pilot can't fly a plane wearing jeans. And so forth.

And because we do have dress codes, we don't want women wearing face veils in our countries. And we expect respect for our values and our dress codes. A Western female journalist in Iran does wear a head scarf, because that's the dress code there.

A turban doesn't hide the face.

I'm not a supporter of dress code laws. I would appreciate it if Muslim women don't wear face veils voluntarily and just cover their hair if they want to. Doing this they would show respect for our countries.




-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

You're wrong, Wardah. There are dress codes in Western countries. You can't walk around downtown naked. You can't enter a bank wearing a motorcycle helmet. You can't wear shorts in an expensive restaurant. A teacher can't teach her class wearing a bikini. You can't wear a t-shirt walking into a CEO's conference room. A pilot can't fly a plane wearing jeans. And so forth.

And because we do have dress codes, we don't want women wearing face veils in our countries. And we expect respect for our values and our dress codes. A Western female journalist in Iran does wear a head scarf, because that's the dress code there.

A turban doesn't hide the face.

I'm not a supporter of dress code laws. I would appreciate it if Muslim women don't wear face veils voluntarily and just cover their hair if they want to. Doing this they would show respect for our countries.

 
Thumbs%20Up



Print Page | Close Window