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FLOOD OF NOAH DIDN´T COVER WORLD IN KORAN

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Prophets - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses
Forum Discription: Prophets - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2055
Printed Date: 24 April 2014 at 1:35pm


Topic: FLOOD OF NOAH DIDN´T COVER WORLD IN KORAN
Posted By: Abdu-Rahman,Kai
Subject: FLOOD OF NOAH DIDN´T COVER WORLD IN KORAN
Date Posted: 25 August 2005 at 4:23am
A.S.A! I am interested about all science and bible (and history) oriented proofs on behalf of Islam, from all fields, and I think I have found some that maybe non-other has noticed before, so please help translating and spreading them, to increase faith of us all (it surely did it for me, very strong reasons why I accepted Islam, I put many links if some will not open in one hour due to high traffic) :

This all is from my book in:

http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/cover1.gif

YOU CAN READ IT ALL AS ONE WHOLE WRITING:

http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/index.html

OR THEN AS EACH AREA ON DIFFERENT SECTIONS ON THESE LINKS:

http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/Islam.html
http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/islam.html
http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/muslims.html
http://www.geocities.com/sciencekoran/muslim.html

FLOOD OF NOAH: According to Koran flood of Noah only involved people of (prophet) Noah, whole world is not said to have sunk (as in the Bible). Strongest candidate for "people of Noah" might be developed nation found from bottom of Black Sea, which people did not have time to escape when masses of water from Mediterrean Sea flow into it after straits of Bosbor (in place of modern Istanbul) collapsed thousands of years ago. Another good candidate is "lost Atlantis", that has been with high probability (descriptions of "Atlantis" match) located from southern Spain, as it sunk into sea on the coast:
         &nbs p;          
    3:33 mentions Noah as important messenger among others like in 4:163 and in 6:84. 7:64 (and 21:77+25:37+37:82+53:52) mentions that (only) those who rejected message of Noah (people he was sent to) were drowned, no other except Noah is mentioned to have had "sign" then. Inheritors of Noah in 7:69 (and in 37:77 "offspring") are only part of people on earth, ancestors of people of Israel. 10:73 people from ark who "inherit the earth" (37:79 "salutation to Noah among the nations") really got it as religions of Aabraham (relative of Noah) cover over 50% of worlds population. 11:40 (and in 23:27 "valley overflows"+54:12) "water came forth from the valley" (Shakir translation) could describe how Bosbor-straits broke, also some heavy rain (54:11) and fountains (Yusufali translation) from ground might have gushed forth at same time, "(take) of each kind two, male and female" does not really mention all species of animals or plants in world, it does not mention animals/plants at all, only humans (his family and those who followed Noah), 26:119 mentions only filled ark ("with all creatures" is interpretation of Yusufali), can be it with humans and food and some animals. 11:43 Noah´s son mentioned going to mountains, but he never got that far as waves "came between them", no mention of flood covering mountains. 11:44 earth "swallowing" water and sky "withdrawing" can not be very much water in any sense. 11:48 confirmed that "there will be" (= they will be introduced to) other people that were not in Ark. 17:2-3 comfirmed that descedants of Ark are people of Israel, from son of Aabraham.In 29:14 "(Noah) tarried among them a thousand years less fifty" can mean that Noah was with his people for 950 years, or that he was with them last 50 years from millennium, or even that he was with them for time of "thousand years" in ours account, so according to Koran (22:47) one "day" in Allah´s sight (as Noah was prophet and belongs with Allah), it can be only reason why this "less fifty" is said and not 950 years mentioned straight, so almost one day (if 50 means years, 95% from day, if "fifty" means 50% then half day) trying to preach them (as according to Koran there is only few descriptions about his sayings, 29:18 "duty of the messenger is only to preach publicly", maybe after that day he began to build ark). In 69:11 interpretiating "you" into mankind is only from Yusufali translation, it could be Noah, or morelikely his offspring and so "you" could be addressed to prophet Muhammed who was also offspring of Aabraham (so "you" in 69:12 is also maybe addressed to prophet Muhammed only). In 71:25 Allah spoke about certain people of Noah mentioned in aya´s 1, 7 and in 23 with their gods. Notice, in 11:46 Allah told for His prophet that he is "acting like ingorant" despite counceling of Him, so was prophet Noah sinless? In 71:26 Noah requested that no single one of unbelievers would be left on earth, but Allah gave no answer to that.
 

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NEW VERSION, AND LOT MORE NEW (IN LINKS AND MAIN PAGE):

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/index.blog?topic_id=102 1115

"KINGDOM OF GOD", ISLAM:

http://www.angelfire.com/moon2/koran/islam



Replies:
Posted By: salman_s
Date Posted: 02 June 2006 at 11:56pm

I have the book Stories of the Prophets by Ibn Kathir

In that book, in the Story of Noah (pbuh), it has been stated that the whole earth was flooded.



Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 6:11pm
this is how i think it happened.
   13,000 years ago there was a huge ice sheet  2mi thick covered most of the northen hemisphere.  
   at this time the worlds oceans were an estemated 400 - 500 feet lower then now.(it was like that for 100,000 yrs.)
 also at this time the persin gulf was completely dried  up.(this was the valley that overflowed) .
  this ice sheet only took they say 150-200 yrs. to melt. a blink of an eye in time. as the oceans rose the water passed over the strates of hermoze(forgive spelling) thus flooding the valley( the garden of eden)
 
  a researcher has used satilites and found the two lost river beds( of the pishon and the gihon) that flowed from iran on one side of the gulf and the other flowed from arabia on the other side. and they would have met with euphrates and tigris rivers under what is now the gulf.
 
      also we are now finding that all around the world there are masive buildings and piramids that are so deep under water that they could have only been built when the oceans were at the low point mentioned above. ( this would be the race of man that was distroyed)
     thus cities didn't " sink ". the water rose. the russians say thay have found a huge undewater city complex in the atlantic but will not tell where it is.
 
        so how do you relate this happening to later people?? how could they understand what took place??
 
  well a few years ago archeologists found a tablet( dates 6000 bce)  by the old city of ure( spelling). on this tablet it told a story.
 
    a story of a buisness man who owned a bardge and carried goods up and down the river. well all at once a deludge came  flowing down the river flooding all the area. like a great sunami it wash all who along the river away devistating the land.
    well this man and his family gained safty from this on their bardge. surived the deludge got washed into the persan gulf where they drifted for seven days or so they landed on an isiand ( bahrane they think). he returned a hero for the feat but under sumarien law he was lible for the cargo left on shore that was lost.
    unable to pay he was benished for some time till he was able to return.
 
 the name of the man on the tablet was    NOAH.
 
 SO AS ADAMS ( GODS FIRST PROPHET) LIFE RETELLS THE CREATION  THAT HAPPEN BEFORE HIM SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT .
 
   SO THE STORY OF NOAH AND HIS EXPREAENCE IS USED TO RELATE THAT RISING OF THE OCEANS AND THE END OF THE EARLER RACE MAN .SO ALSO WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT TOOK PLACE.
     
  AND ABOUT THE GARDEN OF EDEN .
 
IT'S BEEN WRITEN THAT THE TREE OF LIFE LIES IN THE  " ENDLESS  SEA".  AND  GROWS IN THE  "SEA OF ETERNITY" AND STANDS IN THE  MIDDLE OF THE    "ETERNAL SEA"
 
  http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/EsseneRevelation.htm - http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/EsseneRevelation.htm
 


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love for all conquers all


Posted By: royrev
Date Posted: 03 November 2010 at 9:18am
Sometimes I wonder if all the stories in the Bible are true


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 21 December 2012 at 8:15pm
If the flood was a local one, why would God according to the Quran order Noah to take aboard 2 of every species of animals?

Also, according to Ibn Abbas' tafsir of 37:77, humans are all descended from Noah's sons.



bn Abbas

(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people,

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=37&tAyahNo=77&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ



If I am not mistaken, Ibn Abbas knew both Muhammad and his companions personally. Ibn Jalalayn and Ibn Kathir confirm people are all descended from Noah in their tafsirs.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 22 December 2012 at 5:23am
Originally posted by Nazarene

this is how i think it happened.
   13,000 years ago there was a huge ice sheet  2mi thick covered most of the northen hemisphere.  
   at this time the worlds oceans were an estemated 400 - 500 feet lower then now.(it was like that for 100,000 yrs.)
 also at this time the persin gulf was completely dried  up.(this was the valley that overflowed) .
  this ice sheet only took they say 150-200 yrs. to melt. a blink of an eye in time. as the oceans rose the water passed over the strates of hermoze(forgive spelling) thus flooding the valley( the garden of eden)
 
  a researcher has used satilites and found the two lost river beds( of the pishon and the gihon) that flowed from iran on one side of the gulf and the other flowed from arabia on the other side. and they would have met with euphrates and tigris rivers under what is now the gulf.
 
      also we are now finding that all around the world there are masive buildings and piramids that are so deep under water that they could have only been built when the oceans were at the low point mentioned above. ( this would be the race of man that was distroyed)
     thus cities didn't " sink ". the water rose. the russians say thay have found a huge undewater city complex in the atlantic but will not tell where it is.
 
        so how do you relate this happening to later people?? how could they understand what took place??
 
  well a few years ago archeologists found a tablet( dates 6000 bce)  by the old city of ure( spelling). on this tablet it told a story.
 
    a story of a buisness man who owned a bardge and carried goods up and down the river. well all at once a deludge came  flowing down the river flooding all the area. like a great sunami it wash all who along the river away devistating the land.
    well this man and his family gained safty from this on their bardge. surived the deludge got washed into the persan gulf where they drifted for seven days or so they landed on an isiand ( bahrane they think). he returned a hero for the feat but under sumarien law he was lible for the cargo left on shore that was lost.
    unable to pay he was benished for some time till he was able to return.
 
 the name of the man on the tablet was    NOAH.
 
 SO AS ADAMS ( GODS FIRST PROPHET) LIFE RETELLS THE CREATION  THAT HAPPEN BEFORE HIM SO WE CAN UNDERSTAND IT .
 
   SO THE STORY OF NOAH AND HIS EXPREAENCE IS USED TO RELATE THAT RISING OF THE OCEANS AND THE END OF THE EARLER RACE MAN .SO ALSO WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT TOOK PLACE.
     
  AND ABOUT THE GARDEN OF EDEN .
 
IT'S BEEN WRITEN THAT THE TREE OF LIFE LIES IN THE  " ENDLESS  SEA".  AND  GROWS IN THE  "SEA OF ETERNITY" AND STANDS IN THE  MIDDLE OF THE    "ETERNAL SEA"
 
  http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/EsseneRevelation.htm -  


Salaam Alaikum, Nazarene. This is really fascinating stuff. Do you have any sources you can provide us for the following claims:


also we are now finding that all around the world there are masive buildings and piramids that are so deep under water that they could have only been built when the oceans were at the low point mentioned above. ( this would be the race of man that was distroyed)

     thus cities didn't " sink ". the water rose. the russians say thay have found a huge undewater city complex in the atlantic but will not tell where it is.





Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 23 December 2012 at 1:30pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

If the flood was a local one, why would God according to the Quran order Noah to take aboard 2 of every species of animals?

Also, according to Ibn Abbas' tafsir of 37:77, humans are all descended from Noah's sons.



bn Abbas

(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people,

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=37&tAyahNo=77&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ



If I am not mistaken, Ibn Abbas knew both Muhammad and his companions personally. Ibn Jalalayn and Ibn Kathir confirm people are all descended from Noah in their tafsirs.


The tafsirs do not say that "all" people were descended from the sons of Noah (pbuh), but only the people in a certain geographical locality:

"(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people," (Tafsir of Ibn Abbas)

"and made his descendants the survivors, thus all human beings are descended from him, peace be upon him. He had three sons: Shem (Sām), the ancestor of the Arabs, the Persians and the Byzantines; Ham (Hām), the ancestor of the Negroes; and Japheth (Yāfith), the ancestor of the Turks, the Khazar and [the peoples of] Gog and Magog and [the inhabitants of] such regions." (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn)

"(Sam was the father of the Arabs, Ham was the father of the Ethiopians and Yafith was the father of the Romans.)'' This was also recorded by At-Tirmidhi. What is meant here by Romans is the original Romans, i.e., the Greeks who claimed descent from Ruma (Roma) the son of Liti, the son of Yunan, the son of Yafith, the son of Nuh, peace be upon him." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)


As you can see, none of the tafsirs mentions other civilizations like those inhabiting North and South America, China, Japan etc.  They only refer to the people in some parts of Asia, Africa and Europe.  Therefore, it cannot be concluded based on the tafsirs whether the flood was regional or global.  It could have been either.  It is a matter of faith either way because we are talking about events which occurred thousands of years ago.  I tend to lean towards the flood being regional.  If it was global, then it means that other arks could also have been made because Allah (swt) would have warned all people in the world, not just the people of Noah (pbuh), but his story was told because it is the most well-known.    


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 23 December 2012 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

If the flood was a local one, why would God according to the Quran order Noah to take aboard 2 of every species of animals?

Also, according to Ibn Abbas' tafsir of 37:77, humans are all descended from Noah's sons.



bn Abbas

(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people,

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=37&tAyahNo=77&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ



If I am not mistaken, Ibn Abbas knew both Muhammad and his companions personally. Ibn Jalalayn and Ibn Kathir confirm people are all descended from Noah in their tafsirs.


The tafsirs do not say that "all" people were descended from the sons of Noah (pbuh), but only the people in a certain geographical locality:

"(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people," (Tafsir of Ibn Abbas)

"and made his descendants the survivors, thus all human beings are descended from him, peace be upon him. He had three sons: Shem (Sām), the ancestor of the Arabs, the Persians and the Byzantines; Ham (Hām), the ancestor of the Negroes; and Japheth (Yāfith), the ancestor of the Turks, the Khazar and [the peoples of] Gog and Magog and [the inhabitants of] such regions." (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn)

"(Sam was the father of the Arabs, Ham was the father of the Ethiopians and Yafith was the father of the Romans.)'' This was also recorded by At-Tirmidhi. What is meant here by Romans is the original Romans, i.e., the Greeks who claimed descent from Ruma (Roma) the son of Liti, the son of Yunan, the son of Yafith, the son of Nuh, peace be upon him." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)


As you can see, none of the tafsirs mentions other civilizations like those inhabiting North and South America, China, Japan etc.  They only refer to the people in some parts of Asia, Africa and Europe.  Therefore, it cannot be concluded based on the tafsirs whether the flood was regional or global.  It could have been either.  It is a matter of faith either way because we are talking about events which occurred thousands of years ago.  I tend to lean towards the flood being regional.  If it was global, then it means that other arks could also have been made because Allah (swt) would have warned all people in the world, not just the people of Noah (pbuh), but his story was told because it is the most well-known.    


Sorry, but none of the tafsirs say people in a certain geographic locality were affected by the flood.

 Ibn Jalalayn specifically wrote that all human beings are descended from Noah.

"and made his descendants the survivors, thus all human beings are descended from him, peace be upon him. He had three sons: Shem (Sām), the ancestor of the Arabs, the Persians and the Byzantines; Ham (Hām), the ancestor of the Negroes; and Japheth (Yāfith), the ancestor of the Turks, the Khazar and [the peoples of] Gog and Magog and [the inhabitants of] such regions." (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn)

Unless you want to argue that people outside of certain parts of Europe, Africa and Asia are not human beings, it is made pretty clear that all humans descended from Noah's family.


Ibn Kathir in his tafsir makes it pretty clear the whole earth was flooded. I was going to save these points for our debate, but here we go anyways. Smile


Ibn Kathir in his tafsir made it pretty clear that God destroyed all on the face of the earth who were disbelievers, that there were no 'sons of Adam' (human beings) alive on the earth except those who boarded the boat, and that all people descended from the offspring of Noah.

Tafsir of 71:26

 

(And Nuh said: "My Lord! Leave not one of the disbelievers on the earth Dayyar!'') meaning, do not leave a single one of them on the face of the earth, not even a lone individual. This is a method of speaking that gives emphasis to the negation. Ad-Dahhak said, "Dayyar means one.'' As-Suddi said, "Dayyar is the one who stays in the home.'' So Allah answered his supplication and He destroyed all of those on the face of the earth who were disbelievers. He (Allah) even destroyed Nuh's (biological) son from his own loins, who separated himself from his father (Nuh). He (Nuh's son) said,

 

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1495&Itemid=127 - Tafsir of 37:76,77

And indeed Nuh invoked Us, and We are the best of those who answer.)

﴿وَنَجَّيْنَـهُ وَأَهْلَهُ مِنَ الْكَرْبِ الْعَظِيمِ ﴾

(And We rescued him and his family from the great distress.) means, their disbelief and their insults.

﴿وَجَعَلْنَا ذُرِّيَّتَهُ هُمُ الْبَـقِينَ ﴾

(And, his progeny, them We made the survivors.) `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, "There was no one left apart from the offspring of Nuh, peace be upon him.'' Sa`id bin Abi `Arubah said, narrating from Qatadah concerning the Ayah,

﴿وَجَعَلْنَا ذُرِّيَّتَهُ هُمُ الْبَـقِينَ ﴾

(And, his progeny, them We made the survivors.) "All people descended from the offspring of Nuh, peace be upon him.''

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1933&Itemid=93 -


This is his tafsir of verse 25:40

 

And Nuh's people, when they denied the Messengers,) although Allah sent only Nuh to them, and he stayed among them for 950 years, calling them to Allah and warning them of His punishment,

﴿وَمَآ ءَامَنَ مَعَهُ إِلاَّ قَلِيلٌ﴾

(And none believed with him, except a few) (11:40). For this reason Allah drowned them all and left no one among the sons of Adam alive on earth apart from those who boarded the boat,

﴿وَجَعَلْنَـهُمْ لِلنَّاسِ ءَايَةً﴾

(and We made them a sign for mankind.) meaning a lesson to be learned. This is like the Ayah,

﴿إِنَّا لَمَّا طَغَا الْمَآءُ حَمَلْنَـكُمْ فِى الْجَارِيَةِ - لِنَجْعَلَهَا لَكُمْ تَذْكِرَةً وَتَعِيَهَآ أُذُنٌ وَعِيَةٌ ﴾

(Verily, when the water rose beyond its limits, We carried you in the boat. That We might make it a remembrance for you, and the keen ear may understand it) (69:11-12), which means: `We left for you ships that you ride upon to travel across the depths of the seas, so that you may remember the blessing of Allah towards you when He saved you from drowning, and made you the descendants of those who believed in Allah and followed His commandments.'

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2394&Itemid=80 - Ibn Abbas divided the descendants of the sons of Noah into three groups, the Arabs and those sorrounding them, the Abyssinians, Berbers and people of Sind, and "the rest of the people".

"(And made his seed the survivors) until the Day of Judgement. Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Yapheth. Shem is the father of the Arabs and those people surrounding them; Ham is the father the Abyssinians, Berbers and inhabitants of Sind; and Yapheth is the father of the rest of people," (Tafsir of Ibn Abbas)


None of the tafsir say that the flood was a regional event or that the descendants of Noah are only people in a certain part of the world, yet Ibn Kathir and Ibn Jalalayn say that all people descended from Noah's family, Ibn Abbas divides the sons of Noah's inhabitants into a few ethnic groups and "the rest of people" and Ibn Kathir makes it explicitly clear that God destroyed everyone on the earth who did not go on the ark.


I don't think it can be any more clear that the flood was global and wiped out everyone except those who went with Noah on the ark.


http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2394&Itemid=80 - http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2394&Itemid=80 -



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 11:12am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Sorry, but none of the tafsirs say people in a certain geographic locality were affected by the flood.

 Ibn Jalalayn specifically wrote that all human beings are descended from Noah.

"and made his descendants the survivors, thus all human beings are descended from him, peace be upon him. He had three sons: Shem (Sām), the ancestor of the Arabs, the Persians and the Byzantines; Ham (Hām), the ancestor of the Negroes; and Japheth (Yāfith), the ancestor of the Turks, the Khazar and [the peoples of] Gog and Magog and [the inhabitants of] such regions." (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn)


You are ignoring the part of the tafsir where only certain nations are named as the descendants of the sons of Noah (pbuh).  The tafsir does not mention the Chinese, for example.  How then can you maintain that all human beings are descended from Noah's sons.  The tafsir only names certain nations. 

Moreover, as I have mentioned to you in the past, the tafsirs are not scripture.  They cannot replace the Quran and Sunnah.  Tafsirs can contain mistakes or inauthentic information, and this includes all tafsirs, even that of Ibn Abbas.  As Bassam Zawadi notes, Ibn Abbas was known to relate stories he had heard from the Jews (and which are not regarded as authentic):

"...these are most likely from the Israeliyaat sources (something that Ibn Abbass was known to pass off) and they are not binding upon us Muslims since our only sources of religious authority are the Qur'an and authentic Prophetic traditions. " http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_s_article__does_the_quran_teach_a_local_flood__ - [1]


The same can be said of Ibn Kathir's tafsir.  I was already aware that Ibn Kathir believed that the flood was a global one.  But the Quran does not specify clearly whether it was a global flood.  It could have been or it may not have been.  If it was global, then it stands to reason that Noah (pbuh) would not have been the only prophet sent to warn his people.  There would have been others and as a result, there would have been other arks.  Yet, the Quran only mentions that the flood destroyed the people of Noah (pbuh) specifically.  This could be for one of two reasons:

1.  Only Noah's people were destroyed by the flood, which would mean that it was a local flood, or,

2.  Only their story is mentioned because it is the most well-known.

In closing, just because the tafsirs say that the flood was global does not make it so.  The Quran is not clear on the subject and so Muslims would have to withhold judgment, as it is a matter of the unknown.  Only God knows best.  So, if you were to ask me whether the flood was global or local, my answer would be "I don't know."

As Bassam Zawadi states:

"In conclusion, there are no clear texts in reliable Islamic sources that reject or accept Noah's flood as being universal. In order for the Christian or anyone else to level this argument successfully they must be able to clearly show that reliable Islamic sources do teach that a universal flood occurred." [Ibid.]



-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 25 December 2012 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Sorry, but none of the tafsirs say people in a certain geographic locality were affected by the flood.

 Ibn Jalalayn specifically wrote that all human beings are descended from Noah.

"and made his descendants the survivors, thus all human beings are descended from him, peace be upon him. He had three sons: Shem (Sām), the ancestor of the Arabs, the Persians and the Byzantines; Ham (Hām), the ancestor of the Negroes; and Japheth (Yāfith), the ancestor of the Turks, the Khazar and [the peoples of] Gog and Magog and [the inhabitants of] such regions." (Tafsir Al-Jalalayn)


You are ignoring the part of the tafsir where only certain nations are named as the descendants of the sons of Noah (pbuh).  The tafsir does not mention the Chinese, for example.  How then can you maintain that all human beings are descended from Noah's sons.  The tafsir only names certain nations. 

Moreover, as I have mentioned to you in the past, the tafsirs are not scripture.  They cannot replace the Quran and Sunnah.  Tafsirs can contain mistakes or inauthentic information, and this includes all tafsirs, even that of Ibn Abbas.  As Bassam Zawadi notes, Ibn Abbas was known to relate stories he had heard from the Jews (and which are not regarded as authentic):

"...these are most likely from the Israeliyaat sources (something that Ibn Abbass was known to pass off) and they are not binding upon us Muslims since our only sources of religious authority are the Qur'an and authentic Prophetic traditions. " http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_s_article__does_the_quran_teach_a_local_flood__ - [1]


The same can be said of Ibn Kathir's tafsir.  I was already aware that Ibn Kathir believed that the flood was a global one.  But the Quran does not specify clearly whether it was a global flood.  It could have been or it may not have been.  If it was global, then it stands to reason that Noah (pbuh) would not have been the only prophet sent to warn his people.  There would have been others and as a result, there would have been other arks.  Yet, the Quran only mentions that the flood destroyed the people of Noah (pbuh) specifically.  This could be for one of two reasons:

1.  Only Noah's people were destroyed by the flood, which would mean that it was a local flood, or,

2.  Only their story is mentioned because it is the most well-known.

In closing, just because the tafsirs say that the flood was global does not make it so.  The Quran is not clear on the subject and so Muslims would have to withhold judgment, as it is a matter of the unknown.  Only God knows best.  So, if you were to ask me whether the flood was global or local, my answer would be "I don't know."

As Bassam Zawadi states:

"In conclusion, there are no clear texts in reliable Islamic sources that reject or accept Noah's flood as being universal. In order for the Christian or anyone else to level this argument successfully they must be able to clearly show that reliable Islamic sources do teach that a universal flood occurred." [Ibid.]


I find your argument to be quite interesting, since you have in the past referred to the tafsir writers to back up your interpretation of the Quran, yet when they say something you disagree with, you oppose them!!!

The fact  that Ibn Jalalayn only mentioned some people groups does not change the fact he claims all human beings descended from Noah`s sons. Perhaps he believed all human beings originated from these groups. Either way, he did state that all human beings were descended from Noah`s family.

Bassam Zawadi claims Ibn Abbas` tafsir of the flood verses is `likely based from Israelite sources`. Really? How does he know this? What proof does he provide for his claim?

Ibn Abbas personally knew Muhammad when he was a young boy, and knew his companions. Why would he turn to Israelite sources for interpretation?

Bassam Zawadi claims there are no clear texts in reliable Islamic sources that reject or accept Noah's flood as being universal

So in other words, are the tafsir of Ibn Abbas, Ibn Kathir and Ibn Jalalayn unreliable?


You also didn`t answer my previous question- if the flood was only local, why would God command Noah to take two of every species with him on the boat?

After all, if only part of the earth was flooded, the animals could have gone elsewhere. There would have been no need to gather two of each, since they could have multiplied with other creatures in the parts of the world that were unaffected by the flood.


It is extremely clear that the Quran teaches that the flood was global, and killed off every human being on earth with the exception of those who got on the boat. Ibn Abbas, who knew Muhammad personally, knew this. So did Kathir and Jalalayn. I would say their acknowledgement that the Quran teaches the flood was global is far more reliable than Zawadi`s thoughts on the matter. He did not know Muhammad or his companions. Ibn Abbas did.



Furthermore, the site you cited, uses some of the same style of attacks on Christianity as answering-christianity. It isn`t that different from answering-islam or similar sites that are used to attack Muslim beliefs.



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 1:04pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

I find your argument to be quite interesting, since you have in the past referred to the tafsir writers to back up your interpretation of the Quran, yet when they say something you disagree with, you oppose them!!!


Have you forgotten that I also said that tafsirs are human endeavors and that they cannot replaces the Quran and Sunnah?  Tafsirs are useful for the purposes of exegesis but they are not infallible.  You will not find one Islamic scholar who would say that tafsirs are completely reliable.  In fact, I challenge you to provide one example of an Islamic scholar who believes this.

Originally posted by TG12345

The fact  that Ibn Jalalayn only mentioned some people groups does not change the fact he claims all human beings descended from Noah`s sons. Perhaps he believed all human beings originated from these groups. Either way, he did state that all human beings were descended from Noah`s family.


Yet, it did not mention every nation.  What happened to the Chinese?  Also, you are confused about the authors of the Tafsir al-Jalalayn.  The word "al-Jalalayn" means "the two Jalals".  It is so named because it had two authors, Jalal al-Din al-Mahali and his student Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti http://altafsir.com/Al-Jalalayn.asp - [1] .  It was not written by someone named "Ibn Jalalayn". 

In addition, according to Dr. Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, the Tafsir al-Jalalayn, like many tafsirs, incorporates many traditions belonging to the "Israliyaat", which I mentioned before:

"...it fills in, based largely on the Bible and its Rabbinical and Patristic Commentaries gleaned mostly from early Christian and Jewish converts to Islam (and therefore containing some confused, polemical and apocryphal material), the historical order, details and context of many of the stories in the Qur’an concerning the Biblical Prophets and Jesus (p.b.u.h.) and his family and disciples. This element is known in Arabic as Isrā’īliyyāt (‘Tales of the Children of Israel’) and is generally thought of as not only the
most controversial part of Tafsīr al-Jalālayn, but of Tafsīr in general, because of the tenuousness of some of the material involved. However, it is extremely useful for understanding the background — and therefore
also the meaning (symbolic or otherwise) — of many of the tales of the Qur’an, such that few if any Classical Commentaries have ever able been able to ignore it." http://altafsir.com/Books/Al_Jalalain_Eng.pdf - [2]


You can find this article on the very website that you used to find the tafsirs. 

This is why all tafsirs need to be read with caution.  To give you a perfect example, consider the tradition mentioned in the tafsirs about Noah's sons being the ancestors of many races of people (or as you claim, of all mankind).  This tradition is nowhere to be found in either the Quran or the authentic hadiths! 

Originally posted by TG12345

Bassam Zawadi claims Ibn Abbas` tafsir of the flood verses is `likely based from Israelite sources`. Really? How does he know this? What proof does he provide for his claim?
  

It is well-known, as I showed above, that the "Israliyyat" were commonly used by the tafsir writers to fill-in certain details in the Quranic narrative.  That does not make them anymore authentic. 

With regard to the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas, Mokrane Guezzou notes in his translation of the tafsir:

"Another striking feature of this commentary of the Qur’an is its heavy reliance on the so-called Isra’iliyyat. Isra’iliyyat is a term used to refer to those reports and narrations found in commentaries of the Qur’an, Sufi literature, histories of the prophets, the reports of the storytellers (qussas) as well as other genres of writing like the belle-letters." http://www.altafsir.com/Books/IbnAbbas.pdf - [3]

This is also found on the same website that you have using. 

As you can see, Muslim scholars recognize these problems with the tafsirs.  So, what position are you in to tell us otherwise, being that you are a Christian with limited knowledge about the Islamic sources?  Did you know that there is even some controversy as to whether the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas was even authored by Ibn Abbas?  This is how "Al-Tafsir.com" describes the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas:

"Attributed variously to the Companion Abdullah Ibn Abbas (d. 68/687) and to Muhammad ibn Ya‘qub al-Firuzabadi (d. 817/1414), Tanwîr al-Miqbâs is one of the most pivotal works for understanding the environment which influenced the development of Qur’anic exegesis. Despite its uncertain authorship and its reliance on the controversial Isrâ’îliyyat or Israelite stories, Tanwîr al-Miqbâs nevertheless offers readers valuable insight into the circulation and exchange of popular ideas between Islam, Judaism and Christianity during the formative phase of Islamic exegesis." http://altafsir.com/Ibn-Abbas.asp - [3]

Guezzou, the translator I previously referred to, goes even further and explicitly states that the tafsir was not written by Ibn Abbas but has been attributed to him erroneously:

"There is no doubt that this commentary is not the work of Ibn ‘Abbas. The chain of transmitters of this commentary goes back to Muhammad Ibn Marwan> al-Kalbi> Abu Salih which is described by Hadith experts as the chain of lies (silsilat al-kadhib), for this line of transmission is utterly dubious and unreliable.  One does not even need to use the criteria for reliable transmission applied by Hadith experts to decide this commentary’s wrong attribution to Ibn ‘Abbas. It is easy to detect obvious anomalies in the text of Tanwir al-Miqbas which leave one with no doubt that whoever wrote it lived many centuries after Ibn ‘Abbas." http://www.altafsir.com/Books/IbnAbbas.pdf - [4]

As you can see, there is good reason to read the tafsirs with caution.  You are not in a position to criticize Muslims for accepting some parts and rejecting others. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Ibn Abbas personally knew Muhammad when he was a young boy, and knew his companions. Why would he turn to Israelite sources for interpretation?


You are assuming that Ibn Abbas had all sorts of information from Muhammad (pbuh).  If that were the case, then obviously we would find stories related by Ibn Abbas or the other companions about Noah's sons being the ancestors of all mankind in the Sahih hadiths.  Can you provide any examples?

Just because Ibn Abbas was a companion of the Prophet does not make him infallible. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Bassam Zawadi claims there are no clear texts in reliable Islamic sources that reject or accept Noah's flood as being universal

So in other words, are the tafsir of Ibn Abbas, Ibn Kathir and Ibn Jalalayn unreliable?


I had already explained this briefly in the email debate.  Perhaps you have not gotten that far yet.  In any case, the information given above shows that the tafsirs are not completely reliable.  I have been saying that for a long time!  Our most trust-worthy sources are the Quran and Sunnah.  The tafsirs are not scripture, so why would they be considered to completely reliable?

Originally posted by TG12345

You also didn`t answer my previous question- if the flood was only local, why would God command Noah to take two of every species with him on the boat?


The answer is very simple.  Perhaps God was referring to two of every species in the region, or perhaps He was referring to only Noah's animals.  We can't say for sure.

But think about it.  Would the ark have been big enough to have room for every single species of animals?  There are literally millions of species of animals, not including insects.  Do you really think that there would have been enough room?  That is why I think that if the flood was global, then there would have been other arks because other prophets would have been sent as well to the other nations.  If, on the other hand, only Noah's people were affected or if they were somehow the only people on the earth (which is unlikely), then it stands to reason that Noah (pbuh) was commanded to only take animals in the region that was going to be affected by the flood. 

Originally posted by TG12345

After all, if only part of the earth was flooded, the animals could have gone elsewhere. There would have been no need to gather two of each, since they could have multiplied with other creatures in the parts of the world that were unaffected by the flood.


You are assuming that every single animal can adapt to every single environment.  This is completely inaccurate.  For example, some animals cannot survive in desert terrain.  Others are more suited for colder environments. 

Originally posted by TG12345

It is extremely clear that the Quran teaches that the flood was global, and killed off every human being on earth with the exception of those who got on the boat. Ibn Abbas, who knew Muhammad personally, knew this. So did Kathir and Jalalayn. I would say their acknowledgement that the Quran teaches the flood was global is far more reliable than Zawadi`s thoughts on the matter. He did not know Muhammad or his companions. Ibn Abbas did.
 

You are in no position to make these sorts of "fatwas".  Smile  There have been many detailed studies done by Islamic scholars that show that the tafsirs are not to be blindly accepted.  These scholars' opinions carry more weight than your personal opinions.

The Quran does not say explicitly that the flood was global or local.  The tafsirs do claim that the flood was global, but that is not based on the Quran or Sunnah.   

The only thing that is "extremely clear" is that it is the Bible that teaches that the flood was global.  The Quran is not clear on the issue.  Moreover, whether the flood was global or not is not the point of the Quranic narrative.  What is more important is the moral lesson that needs to be understood from reading the story. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Furthermore, the site you cited, uses some of the same style of attacks on Christianity as answering-christianity. It isn`t that different from answering-islam or similar sites that are used to attack Muslim beliefs.


I don't see how that is relevant here.  It is a Muslim website which I used to offer a Muslim perspective on the Quranic story of the flood.  What does that have to do with its "syle of attacks on Christianity"?   


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 26 December 2012 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...


Originally posted by TG12345

I find your argument to be quite interesting, since you have in the past referred to the tafsir writers to back up your interpretation of the Quran, yet when they say something you disagree with, you oppose them!!!


Originally posted by islamispeace

Have you forgotten that I also said that tafsirs are human endeavors and that they cannot replaces the Quran and Sunnah?  Tafsirs are useful for the purposes of exegesis but they are not infallible.  You will not find one Islamic scholar who would say that tafsirs are completely reliable.  In fact, I challenge you to provide one example of an Islamic scholar who believes this.


Then why do you and many other Muslims use them to help 'explain' what certain verses in the Quran mean? How "useful" are they for "purposes of exegesis" if they are based on ex-Jewish sources? Or do you get to choose which ones you agree and disagree with, and whatever disagrees with your interpretation you can blame on the Israelite sources?

Originally posted by TG12345

The fact  that Ibn Jalalayn only mentioned some people groups does not change the fact he claims all human beings descended from Noah`s sons. Perhaps he believed all human beings originated from these groups. Either way, he did state that all human beings were descended from Noah`s family.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Yet, it did not mention every nation.  What happened to the Chinese?

Perhaps the authors believed the Chinese originated from the races named already?

Originally posted by islamispeace

Also, you are confused about the authors of the Tafsir al-Jalalayn.  The word "al-Jalalayn" means "the two Jalals".  It is so named because it had two authors, Jalal al-Din al-Mahali and his student Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti http://altafsir.com/Al-Jalalayn.asp - [1] .  It was not written by someone named "Ibn Jalalayn". 

You are right about that, thank you for correcting me.

Originally posted by TG12345

In addition, according to Dr. Ghazi bin Muhammad bin Talal, the Tafsir al-Jalalayn, like many tafsirs, incorporates many traditions belonging to the "Israliyaat", which I mentioned before:

"...it fills in, based largely on the Bible and its Rabbinical and Patristic Commentaries gleaned mostly from early Christian and Jewish converts to Islam (and therefore containing some confused, polemical and apocryphal material), the historical order, details and context of many of the stories in the Qur’an concerning the Biblical Prophets and Jesus (p.b.u.h.) and his family and disciples. This element is known in Arabic as Isrā’īliyyāt (‘Tales of the Children of Israel’) and is generally thought of as not only the
most controversial part of Tafsīr al-Jalālayn, but of Tafsīr in general, because of the tenuousness of some of the material involved. However, it is extremely useful for understanding the background — and therefore
also the meaning (symbolic or otherwise) — of many of the tales of the Qur’an, such that few if any Classical Commentaries have ever able been able to ignore it." http://altafsir.com/Books/Al_Jalalain_Eng.pdf - [2]


You can find this article on the very website that you used to find the tafsirs. 

This is why all tafsirs need to be read with caution.  To give you a perfect example, consider the tradition mentioned in the tafsirs about Noah's sons being the ancestors of many races of people (or as you claim, of all mankind).  This tradition is nowhere to be found in either the Quran or the authentic hadiths! 

OK, now I am confused. If the tafsirs contain " confused, polemical and apocryphal" material, then what is the point of even referring to them? How would such 'misinformation' from new Jewish and Christian converts help understand the background of the verses in the Quran?

Also, how do you know Ibn Abbas got this tradition from the hadith? According to Bassem Zawadi, the only hadith that teaches mankind descended from Noah's sons is this one:

According to Ibn Bashshar- Ibn `Athmah- Sa'id b. Bashir- Qatadah- al-Hasan- Samurah b. Jundub- the Prophet, in connection with commenting on God's word: `And We made his offspring the survivors': Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Ibid, p. 369)

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_s_article__does_the_quran_teach_a_local_flood__


Originally posted by TG12345

Bassam Zawadi claims Ibn Abbas` tafsir of the flood verses is `likely based from Israelite sources`. Really? How does he know this? What proof does he provide for his claim?
  

Originally posted by islamispeace

It is well-known, as I showed above, that the "Israliyyat" were commonly used by the tafsir writers to fill-in certain details in the Quranic narrative.  That does not make them anymore authentic. 

With regard to the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas, Mokrane Guezzou notes in his translation of the tafsir:

"Another striking feature of this commentary of the Qur’an is its heavy reliance on the so-called Isra’iliyyat. Isra’iliyyat is a term used to refer to those reports and narrations found in commentaries of the Qur’an, Sufi literature, histories of the prophets, the reports of the storytellers (qussas) as well as other genres of writing like the belle-letters." http://www.altafsir.com/Books/IbnAbbas.pdf - [3]

This is also found on the same website that you have using. 

As you can see, Muslim scholars recognize these problems with the tafsirs.  So, what position are you in to tell us otherwise, being that you are a Christian with limited knowledge about the Islamic sources?  Did you know that there is even some controversy as to whether the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas was even authored by Ibn Abbas?  This is how "Al-Tafsir.com" describes the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas:

"Attributed variously to the Companion Abdullah Ibn Abbas (d. 68/687) and to Muhammad ibn Ya‘qub al-Firuzabadi (d. 817/1414), Tanwîr al-Miqbâs is one of the most pivotal works for understanding the environment which influenced the development of Qur’anic exegesis. Despite its uncertain authorship and its reliance on the controversial Isrâ’îliyyat or Israelite stories, Tanwîr al-Miqbâs nevertheless offers readers valuable insight into the circulation and exchange of popular ideas between Islam, Judaism and Christianity during the formative phase of Islamic exegesis." http://altafsir.com/Ibn-Abbas.asp - [3]

Guezzou, the translator I previously referred to, goes even further and explicitly states that the tafsir was not written by Ibn Abbas but has been attributed to him erroneously:

"There is no doubt that this commentary is not the work of Ibn ‘Abbas. The chain of transmitters of this commentary goes back to Muhammad Ibn Marwan> al-Kalbi> Abu Salih which is described by Hadith experts as the chain of lies (silsilat al-kadhib), for this line of transmission is utterly dubious and unreliable.  One does not even need to use the criteria for reliable transmission applied by Hadith experts to decide this commentary’s wrong attribution to Ibn ‘Abbas. It is easy to detect obvious anomalies in the text of Tanwir al-Miqbas which leave one with no doubt that whoever wrote it lived many centuries after Ibn ‘Abbas." http://www.altafsir.com/Books/IbnAbbas.pdf - [4]

As you can see, there is good reason to read the tafsirs with caution.  You are not in a position to criticize Muslims for accepting some parts and rejecting others. 

Don't get mad at me for interpreting the Quran based on Muslim sources that you and some others happen to disagree with, you do the same with the Bible.

It seems from this that the tafsirs are unreliable and should not be used to interpret the Quran. It is claimed that tafsir Ibn Abbas was written centuries after him.

I will be sure to point this out to you the next time you use them to 'explain' what verses from the Quran mean (or to support your interpretation of them). Wink

Originally posted by TG12345

Ibn Abbas personally knew Muhammad when he was a young boy, and knew his companions. Why would he turn to Israelite sources for interpretation?


Originally posted by islamispeace

You are assuming that Ibn Abbas had all sorts of information from Muhammad (pbuh).  If that were the case, then obviously we would find stories related by Ibn Abbas or the other companions about Noah's sons being the ancestors of all mankind in the Sahih hadiths.  Can you provide any examples?

Just because Ibn Abbas was a companion of the Prophet does not make him infallible. 


Why would that need to be the case? Is everything that Ibn Abbas said that is not recorded in the hadith false?

From this exchange, I guess though that his tafsir, and the tafsirs Jalalayn and Kathir should be dismissed since they contain all kinds of inaccuracies based on ex-Christians and ex-Jews.

Originally posted by TG12345

Bassam Zawadi claims there are no clear texts in reliable Islamic sources that reject or accept Noah's flood as being universal

So in other words, are the tafsir of Ibn Abbas, Ibn Kathir and Ibn Jalalayn unreliable?


Originally posted by islamispeace

I had already explained this briefly in the email debate.  Perhaps you have not gotten that far yet.  In any case, the information given above shows that the tafsirs are not completely reliable.  I have been saying that for a long time!  Our most trust-worthy sources are the Quran and Sunnah.  The tafsirs are not scripture, so why would they be considered to completely reliable?

I didn't get that far yet, I guess. Given that they are not completely reliable, it would be best if you stopped using them to explain what the Quran teaches.

Originally posted by TG12345

You also didn`t answer my previous question- if the flood was only local, why would God command Noah to take two of every species with him on the boat?


Originally posted by islamispeace

The answer is very simple.  Perhaps God was referring to two of every species in the region, or perhaps He was referring to only Noah's animals.  We can't say for sure.

Why would God tell Noah to take two of every species of his animals? Domestic animals of some sort live in every part of the world!

I guess then it is also possible that when you believe God said "every nation in the following passage", He could have meant every nation in the middle east:

16:36

And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.

http://quran.com/16

I am assuming you aren't sure about that, either? Notice that the author didn't mention the Chinese, as you noticed tafsir Jalalayn does not.

Does the Quran or hadith specifically say that this means every nation, and is not just limited to a part of the world?

Originally posted by islamispeace

But think about it.  Would the ark have been big enough to have room for every single species of animals?  There are literally millions of species of animals, not including insects.  Do you really think that there would have been enough room?

Why would it have been impossible for God to fit them in?

Originally posted by islamispeace

That is why I think that if the flood was global, then there would have been other arks because other prophets would have been sent as well to the other nations.  If, on the other hand, only Noah's people were affected or if they were somehow the only people on the earth (which is unlikely), then it stands to reason that Noah (pbuh) was commanded to only take animals in the region that was going to be affected by the flood. 

Or there is another possibility... that only Noah's people were on the earth at that time, and there were no various nations yet.

According to Bassem Zawadi, it is entirely possible that Noah's people were the only ones around, so the flood drowned all humans who were not on the Ark.


Surah 71:26-27 could be interpreted in more than one way. One way is that Noah was praying against the disbelievers in his land. Another way is that Noah was making a general prayer against all disbelievers on planet earth; however that does not necessarily imply that the flood was global. Our Islamic sources (contrary to Biblical sources) do not tell us exactly how many years ago this event took place. Thus, we don't know how the people were spread about the earth at that time. It is said that Noah came after Adam by approximately ten generations. It would be far fetched to believe that in such a time span so many people spread throughout the entire planet. It is most likely that all the people on planet Earth were only Noah's people or some other people who did not live very far away from Noah's land. Therefore, a universal flood wouldn't be necessary in order to wipe out all disbelievers from the face of the planet earth (America was supposedly not discovered at this time yet, so why have a flood occur there?)

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_s_article__does_the_quran_teach_a_local_flood__

What's your view on this?

Originally posted by TG12345

After all, if only part of the earth was flooded, the animals could have gone elsewhere. There would have been no need to gather two of each, since they could have multiplied with other creatures in the parts of the world that were unaffected by the flood.


Originally posted by islamispeace

You are assuming that every single animal can adapt to every single environment.  This is completely inaccurate.  For example, some animals cannot survive in desert terrain.  Others are more suited for colder environments. 

If He was referring to two of every species in the region, why include the birds? They are completely capable of migration.

A bird can easily fly away to a different place. Yet God told Noah to take all species into the Ark with him and his family.

The claim that "all species" refers to all animals in a particular region makes no sense, since many animals are capable of migration and birds can simply fly away.

Arguing this applied to only the domestic animals is equally baffling, since most types of domestic animals are found across the globe. People have livestock, dogs, cats, almost everywhere in the world.

Originally posted by TG12345

It is extremely clear that the Quran teaches that the flood was global, and killed off every human being on earth with the exception of those who got on the boat. Ibn Abbas, who knew Muhammad personally, knew this. So did Kathir and Jalalayn. I would say their acknowledgement that the Quran teaches the flood was global is far more reliable than Zawadi`s thoughts on the matter. He did not know Muhammad or his companions. Ibn Abbas did.
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

You are in no position to make these sorts of "fatwas".  Smile  There have been many detailed studies done by Islamic scholars that show that the tafsirs are not to be blindly accepted.  These scholars' opinions more weight than your personal opinions.

The Quran does not say explicitly that the flood was global or local.  The tafsirs do claim that the flood was global, but that is not based on the Quran or Sunnah. 

The only thing that is "extremely clear" is that it is the Bible that teaches that the flood was global.  The Quran is not clear on the issue.  Moreover, whether the flood was global or not is not the point of the Quranic narrative.  What is more important is the moral lesson that needs to be understood for reading the story. 


We agree that the Bible teaches the flood was global. We agree also that the tafsirs do teach that the flood was global. I see that according to you they are also inaccurate and therefore I trust you will not use them in the future to explain the Quran or refer to them for a better understanding.

BTW can you please show me scholarly sources from close to the time of the tafsir writers that claim that the flood was regional, as you and some Muslims claim?

Originally posted by TG12345

Furthermore, the site you cited, uses some of the same style of attacks on Christianity as answering-christianity. It isn`t that different from answering-islam or similar sites that are used to attack Muslim beliefs.


Originally posted by islamispeace

I don't see how that is relevant here.  It is a Muslim website which I used to offer a Muslim perspective on the Quranic story of the flood.  What does that have to do with its "syle of attacks on Christianity"?   


It's an offhand observation. I try to stay away from sites like "answering-islam", which also offer Christian perspectives on the Bible but are used often to attack Muslims. If I am not incorrect, you encourage people to not use "answering islam" as a source... yet you are using a guy whose articles appear on "answering christianity" and writes in the same style as anti-Muslim Christians do.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 8:24pm
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG12345

Then why do you and many other Muslims use them to help 'explain' what certain verses in the Quran mean? How "useful" are they for "purposes of exegesis" if they are based on ex-Jewish sources? Or do you get to choose which ones you agree and disagree with, and whatever disagrees with your interpretation you can blame on the Israelite sources?


You need to read what I wrote carefully and stop jumping to conclusions.  When did I say that the tafsirs are entirely based on Israliyyat?  What I said was that the tafsir authors relied on Israliyyat to fill-in certain details in the Quranic narrative.  That does not mean that every single thing written in a tafsir was taken from Jewish sources.  Do you think that the tafsir authors would have used Jewish sources to explain verses which dealt with events in the lives of Muhammad (pbuh) or his companions?  Do you think, for example, that information on the Battle of Badr (which is mentioned in the Quran) would have been based on Jewish sources?  Obviously, the answer is no. 

The point is that in some instances, the tafsir authors relied on Jewish stories to give more details about certain stories, most of which had to do with events that occurred hundreds or thousands of years before the coming of Muhammad (pbuh).  That does not mean that the tafsirs are completely based on Israliyyat traditions.  That was an assumption you made.

Originally posted by TG12345

Perhaps the authors believed the Chinese originated from the races named already?
 

Do you have proof for this?  No, this is just speculation. 

Originally posted by TG12345

OK, now I am confused. If the tafsirs contain " confused, polemical and apocryphal" material, then what is the point of even referring to them? How would such 'misinformation' from new Jewish and Christian converts help understand the background of the verses in the Quran?


See above.

Originally posted by TG12345

Also, how do you know Ibn Abbas got this tradition from the hadith? According to Bassem Zawadi, the only hadith that teaches mankind descended from Noah's sons is this one:

According to Ibn Bashshar- Ibn `Athmah- Sa'id b. Bashir- Qatadah- al-Hasan- Samurah b. Jundub- the Prophet, in connection with commenting on God's word: `And We made his offspring the survivors': Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Ibid, p. 369)


If you had kept reading, you would have answered your own question.  Zawadi wrote:

"However, the chain of narration is weak. See Sheikh Albany's Jaami' Al Tirmidhi commentary on hadith no. 3230 & 3931. Also see Sheikh Al Albany's Salseelatil Ahaadeeth Al Da'eefa, Hadith no. 3683 for his detailed critique of the narration."

This is not an authentic hadith.  I pointed out before that there are no hadiths in the authentic compilations that speak of the sons of Noah (pbuh) as being the ancestors of all nations.

Originally posted by TG12345

Don't get mad at me for interpreting the Quran based on Muslim sources that you and some others happen to disagree with, you do the same with the Bible.


Except that I don't question what sources Christians you may use.  You are overstepping your boundaries by telling Muslims what they can and cannot use.  The tafsirs are supplementary material.  They are not considered to be scripture.  We are perfectly within our right to read the tafsirs with caution.  If there is material in the tafsirs which is not based on the Quran or Sunnah, then we have every right to reject it.  Therefore, issues like whether the flood was global or not or whether Noah's sons were the ancestors of all mankind (both of which the Quran does not deal with in detail), should be left alone.  The tafsirs which state that the flood was global were not basing it on authentic material.  I should point out that this does not necessarily mean that those stories are wrong.  It just means that we cannot blindly accept them.  

Originally posted by TG12345

It seems from this that the tafsirs are unreliable and should not be used to interpret the Quran. It is claimed that tafsir Ibn Abbas was written centuries after him.


Again, your opinion is not binding on Muslims.  You, being a Christian, have no say in what sources we can and cannot rely on.  As I explained above, the tafsirs can be useful in explaining the context of Quranic verses which dealt with events and issues in the lifetime of the Prophet, especially if they are supported by authentic narrations.  Here is an example.  The Quran states in Surah Abasa:

"(The Prophet) frowned and turned away, Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).  But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-  Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?" (80:1-4)

Those not familiar with the Prophet's life would probably not understand the context of these verses.  But as the tafsirs explain, these verses were sent down with regard to a specific incident:

"because the blind man came to him: ‘Abd Allāh son of Umm Maktūm, who interrupted him while he was busy with those notables of Quryash whose submission [to God] he was very eager for. The blind man was not aware that he was busy with these and so he called out to him, ‘Teach me of what God has taught you’. However, the Prophet (s) went off to his house. He was then reproached for this with what was revealed in this sūra. Afterwards, whenever he came to him, the Prophet would say to him, ‘Greetings to him on whose account God reproached me!’, and would lay down his cloak for him." (Tafsir al-Jalalayn)

"(Because the blind man came unto him) when 'Abdullah Ibn Umm Maktum came to him. His real name is 'Abdullah Ibn Shurayh. Umm Maktum was his father's mother. What happened is that the Prophet (pbuh) was sitting with a group of men among the nobles of Quraysh, among whom were his uncle al-'Abbas Ibn 'Abd al-Muttalib, Umayyah Ibn Khalaf al-Jumahi and Safwan Ibn Umayyah, who were at that time disbelievers. The Prophet (pbuh) was admonishing and inviting them to Islam when Ibn Maktum came to him and said: “O Messenger of Allah! Teach me of that which Allah has taught you”. The Prophet (pbuh) turned his face from him because he was busy with these people. When this happened Allah revealed: he frowned and turned away because the blind man came unto him." (Tafsir Ibn Abbas)

"More than one of the scholars of Tafsir mentioned that one day the Messenger of Allah was addressing one of the great leaders of the Quraysh while hoping that he would accept Islam. While he was speaking in direct conversation with him, Ibn Umm Maktum came to him, and he was of those who had accepted Islam in its earliest days. He (Ibn Umm Maktum) then began asking the Messenger of Allah about something, urgently beseeching him. The Prophet hoped that the man would be guided, so he asked Ibn Umm Maktum to wait for a moment so he could complete his conversation. He frowned in the face of Ibn Umm Maktum and turned away from him in order to face the other man." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir) 


This is why tafsirs are still useful.

Originally posted by TG12345

I will be sure to point this out to you the next time you use them to 'explain' what verses from the Quran mean (or to support your interpretation of them). Wink


You can point it out, but it will be ignored, because you are not in a position to offer your own fatwas!  Big%20smile

Originally posted by TG12345

Why would that need to be the case? Is everything that Ibn Abbas said that is not recorded in the hadith false?


As I said, Muslims rely on the Quran and the authentic hadiths.  Everything else has to be checked against these two sources.  If something is not mentioned in either one, that does not necessarily mean it is wrong.  It just means that we have no authentic information about it.  In that case, we have to refrain from making judgments.

Originally posted by TG12345

From this exchange, I guess though that his tafsir, and the tafsirs Jalalayn and Kathir should be dismissed since they contain all kinds of inaccuracies based on ex-Christians and ex-Jews.

I didn't get that far yet, I guess. Given that they are not completely reliable, it would be best if you stopped using them to explain what the Quran teaches.


It is not up to you to determine what should be "dismissed".  I have already shown the reasons.

Originally posted by TG12345

Why would God tell Noah to take two of every species of his animals? Domestic animals of some sort live in every part of the world!


Are you sure?  There are such things as different species or breeds of the same animals.  For example, there are different breeds of sheep, ranging from the "Africana" (which are found in South America) and "Damara" (which were found in East Asia and Egypt) http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/ - [1] .

It is perfectly plausible that Noah's animals were only found in a certain region. 

Originally posted by TG12345

I guess then it is also possible that when you believe God said "every nation in the following passage", He could have meant every nation in the middle east:

16:36

And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.

http://quran.com/16


I am assuming you aren't sure about that, either? Notice that the author didn't mention the Chinese, as you noticed tafsir Jalalayn does not.

Does the Quran or hadith specifically say that this means every nation, and is not just limited to a part of the world?


You know, sarcasm is only funny when the person doing it knows what he is talking about!  Wink

If you read the verse carefully and note the context, you would see what it is saying:

"And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers."

This is talking about every nation on the earth.  Moreover, there are other verses in the Quran which clearly state that prophets were sent to all nations:

"Verily We have sent thee in truth, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner: and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them (in the past). And if they reject thee, so did their predecessors, to whom came their messengers with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment." (35:24-25)   


Further still, the hadiths also state that prophets were sent to all nations:

"Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: Allah's Apostle said, 'Nations were displayed before me; one or two prophets would pass by along with a few followers. A prophet would pass by accompanied by nobody. Then a big crowd of people passed in front of me and I asked, Who are they Are they my followers?" It was said, 'No. It is Moses and his followers It was said to me, 'Look at the horizon.'' Behold! There was a multitude of people filling the horizon. Then it was said to me, 'Look there and there about the stretching sky! Behold! There was a multitude filling the horizon,' It was said to me, 'This is your nation out of whom seventy thousand shall enter Paradise without reckoning.' [...]" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 71, Number 606)
 
Notice that this hadith was narrated by Ibn Abbas!  This is an authentic narration and was not based on the Israliyyat. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Why would it have been impossible for God to fit them in?


If that is your best argument for a global flood, then an equally valid question is why didn't God just miraculously save the believers and the animals without the need for a wooden ark?  Was that impossible?

Originally posted by TG12345

Or there is another possibility... that only Noah's people were on the earth at that time, and there were no various nations yet.


Then a global flood would definitely not make any sense.  What would be the point of destroying the whole world when only Noah's people were inhabiting it?  Why would there be a need to destroy uninhabited lands?  Or are you assuming that Noah's people were so numerous that they inhabited the entire planet, including North and South America and Australia?

Originally posted by TG12345

According to Bassem Zawadi, it is entirely possible that Noah's people were the only ones around, so the flood drowned all humans who were not on the Ark.

Surah 71:26-27 could be interpreted in more than one way. One way is that Noah was praying against the disbelievers in his land. Another way is that Noah was making a general prayer against all disbelievers on planet earth; however that does not necessarily imply that the flood was global. Our Islamic sources (contrary to Biblical sources) do not tell us exactly how many years ago this event took place. Thus, we don't know how the people were spread about the earth at that time. It is said that Noah came after Adam by approximately ten generations. It would be far fetched to believe that in such a time span so many people spread throughout the entire planet. It is most likely that all the people on planet Earth were only Noah's people or some other people who did not live very far away from Noah's land. Therefore, a universal flood wouldn't be necessary in order to wipe out all disbelievers from the face of the planet earth (America was supposedly not discovered at this time yet, so why have a flood occur there?)

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_s_article__does_the_quran_teach_a_local_flood__

What's your view on this?


You ignored that Zawadi also pointed out that if Noah's people were the only ones on earth, then a global flood makes no sense, as I also pointed out. 

I think it is unlikely that Noah's people were the only ones inhabiting the earth.  It all depends on how long ago we are talking about.  Neither the Quran nor the Hadiths state how many years have passed since the flood.  Therefore, it would be nothing but speculation.  There is evidence of various civilizations in different places on the earth from thousands of years ago. 

Originally posted by TG12345

If He was referring to two of every species in the region, why include the birds? They are completely capable of migration.

A bird can easily fly away to a different place. Yet God told Noah to take all species into the Ark with him and his family.

The claim that "all species" refers to all animals in a particular region makes no sense, since many animals are capable of migration and birds can simply fly away.
 

Not all birds are migratory and some birds are only capable of migrating short-distances http://www.birds.cornell.edu/AllAboutBirds/studying/migration/ - [2] .  The same applies to animals. 

And like I said, some animals are adapted to their environment.  Migration would mean that they may have to move to a different environment, one which is not suited for them.

Originally posted by TG12345

Arguing this applied to only the domestic animals is equally baffling, since most types of domestic animals are found across the globe. People have livestock, dogs, cats, almost everywhere in the world.


Yes, but they may be different species or breeds, as I pointed out above.

Originally posted by TG12345

We agree that the Bible teaches the flood was global. We agree also that the tafsirs do teach that the flood was global. I see that according to you they are also inaccurate and therefore I trust you will not use them in the future to explain the Quran or refer to them for a better understanding.


They are only as inaccurate as any works of men, including the Bible.  You have no basis to tell me not to use the tafsirs, as they are still useful in explaining the context of certain events that occurred in the life of the Prophet and his companions.  What is most important is that the explanations in the tafsirs be supported by authentic narrations, such as those found in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.

Originally posted by TG12345

BTW can you please show me scholarly sources from close to the time of the tafsir writers that claim that the flood was regional, as you and some Muslims claim?


I don't know of any.  Regardless, since the Quran and Sunnah do not explain the nature of the flood and the verses technically can be interpreted to go both ways, the best we can say is that the flood destroyed Noah's people only.

Originally posted by TG12345

t's an offhand observation. I try to stay away from sites like "answering-islam", which also offer Christian perspectives on the Bible but are used often to attack Muslims. If I am not incorrect, you encourage people to not use "answering islam" as a source... yet you are using a guy whose articles appear on "answering christianity" and writes in the same style as anti-Muslim Christians do.


I encourage people not to use "Answering-Islam" as a source on Islam.  I could care less if they use it for some other purpose.  The website I referred to is a Muslim website.  I used it to refer to a Muslim view on the flood.  That is not the same as using a Christian polemical website like "Answering-Islam" to "learn" about Islam. 


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 28 December 2012 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Blessed be His name.

Originally posted by TG12345

Then why do you and many other Muslims use them to help 'explain' what certain verses in the Quran mean? How "useful" are they for "purposes of exegesis" if they are based on ex-Jewish sources? Or do you get to choose which ones you agree and disagree with, and whatever disagrees with your interpretation you can blame on the Israelite sources?


Originally posted by islamispeace

You need to read what I wrote carefully and stop jumping to conclusions.  When did I say that the tafsirs are entirely based on Israliyyat?  What I said was that the tafsir authors relied on Israliyyat to fill-in certain details in the Quranic narrative.  That does not mean that every single thing written in a tafsir was taken from Jewish sources.  Do you think that the tafsir authors would have used Jewish sources to explain verses which dealt with events in the lives of Muhammad (pbuh) or his companions?  Do you think, for example, that information on the Battle of Badr (which is mentioned in the Quran) would have been based on Jewish sources?  Obviously, the answer is no. 

How do you decide what is based on the Israeliyat and what isn't? What assurance do you have that if the tafsir writers listened to the Jewish interpretation of events that happened during the time of Noah, they didn't listen to Jewish intepretation of events that happened at the battle of Badr?

Originally posted by islamispeace

The point is that in some instances, the tafsir authors relied on Jewish stories to give more details about certain stories, most of which had to do with events that occurred hundreds or thousands of years before the coming of Muhammad (pbuh).  That does not mean that the tafsirs are completely based on Israliyyat traditions.  That was an assumption you made.

In your words they should be "read with caution" and are "not completely reliable". How do you know which parts are and are not based on Jewish religious traditions or on the accounts of ex-Jews?

Originally posted by TG12345

Perhaps the authors believed the Chinese originated from the races named already?
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

Do you have proof for this?  No, this is just speculation. 

If the author claimed "all human beings are descended from Noah", this would either imply that the Chinese originated from one of these races, or that he did not believe they were part of the human race. I would assume the first possibility.

Originally posted by TG12345

OK, now I am confused. If the tafsirs contain " confused, polemical and apocryphal" material, then what is the point of even referring to them? How would such 'misinformation' from new Jewish and Christian converts help understand the background of the verses in the Quran?


Originally posted by islamispeace

See above.]/Quote]
Nothing you have written so far shows they can be trusted. Do you have a list of reliable and unreliable tafsir?


Originally posted by TG12345

Also, how do you know Ibn Abbas got this tradition from the hadith? According to Bassem Zawadi, the only hadith that teaches mankind descended from Noah's sons is this one:

According to Ibn Bashshar- Ibn `Athmah- Sa'id b. Bashir- Qatadah- al-Hasan- Samurah b. Jundub- the Prophet, in connection with commenting on God's word: `And We made his offspring the survivors': Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Ibid, p. 369)


Originally posted by islamispeace

If you had kept reading, you would have answered your own question.  Zawadi wrote:

"However, the chain of narration is weak. See Sheikh Albany's Jaami' Al Tirmidhi commentary on hadith no. 3230 & 3931. Also see Sheikh Al Albany's Salseelatil Ahaadeeth Al Da'eefa, Hadith no. 3683 for his detailed critique of the narration."

This is not an authentic hadith.  I pointed out before that there are no hadiths in the authentic compilations that speak of the sons of Noah (pbuh) as being the ancestors of all nations.

I asked you what proof is there that Ibn Abbas was drawing from this hadith. Zawadi says the hadith is weak. Does he or do you have proof Ibn Abbas drew from it?

Originally posted by TG12345

Don't get mad at me for interpreting the Quran based on Muslim sources that you and some others happen to disagree with, you do the same with the Bible.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Except that I don't question what sources Christians you may use.  You are overstepping your boundaries by telling Muslims what they can and cannot use.  The tafsirs are supplementary material.  They are not considered to be scripture.  We are perfectly within our right to read the tafsirs with caution.  If there is material in the tafsirs which is not based on the Quran or Sunnah, then we have every right to reject it.  Therefore, issues like whether the flood was global or not or whether Noah's sons were the ancestors of all mankind (both of which the Quran does not deal with in detail), should be left alone.  The tafsirs which state that the flood was global were not basing it on authentic material.  I should point out that this does not necessarily mean that those stories are wrong.  It just means that we cannot blindly accept them.  

You are telling me what Muslim sources I can and cannot use, by discounting the evidence I presented from the tafsir which state clearly that the flood was global and affected every human being on the planet by saying it isn't proof and then posting Zawadi's article who claims it is the tafsirs are not a "reliable source".

Originally posted by TG12345

It seems from this that the tafsirs are unreliable and should not be used to interpret the Quran. It is claimed that tafsir Ibn Abbas was written centuries after him.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Again, your opinion is not binding on Muslims.  You, being a Christian, have no say in what sources we can and cannot rely on. 

Use whatever sources you want. I just think it's interesting you are telling me which sources I should and should not use.

Originally posted by islamispeace

As I explained above, the tafsirs can be useful in explaining the context of Quranic verses which dealt with events and issues in the lifetime of the Prophet, especially if they are supported by authentic narrations.  Here is an example.  The Quran states in Surah Abasa:

"(The Prophet) frowned and turned away, Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).  But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-  Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?" (80:1-4)

Those not familiar with the Prophet's life would probably not understand the context of these verses.  But as the tafsirs explain, these verses were sent down with regard to a specific incident:

"because the blind man came to him: ‘Abd Allāh son of Umm Maktūm, who interrupted him while he was busy with those notables of Quryash whose submission [to God] he was very eager for. The blind man was not aware that he was busy with these and so he called out to him, ‘Teach me of what God has taught you’. However, the Prophet (s) went off to his house. He was then reproached for this with what was revealed in this sūra. Afterwards, whenever he came to him, the Prophet would say to him, ‘Greetings to him on whose account God reproached me!’, and would lay down his cloak for him." (Tafsir al-Jalalayn)

"(Because the blind man came unto him) when 'Abdullah Ibn Umm Maktum came to him. His real name is 'Abdullah Ibn Shurayh. Umm Maktum was his father's mother. What happened is that the Prophet (pbuh) was sitting with a group of men among the nobles of Quraysh, among whom were his uncle al-'Abbas Ibn 'Abd al-Muttalib, Umayyah Ibn Khalaf al-Jumahi and Safwan Ibn Umayyah, who were at that time disbelievers. The Prophet (pbuh) was admonishing and inviting them to Islam when Ibn Maktum came to him and said: “O Messenger of Allah! Teach me of that which Allah has taught you”. The Prophet (pbuh) turned his face from him because he was busy with these people. When this happened Allah revealed: he frowned and turned away because the blind man came unto him." (Tafsir Ibn Abbas)

"More than one of the scholars of Tafsir mentioned that one day the Messenger of Allah was addressing one of the great leaders of the Quraysh while hoping that he would accept Islam. While he was speaking in direct conversation with him, Ibn Umm Maktum came to him, and he was of those who had accepted Islam in its earliest days. He (Ibn Umm Maktum) then began asking the Messenger of Allah about something, urgently beseeching him. The Prophet hoped that the man would be guided, so he asked Ibn Umm Maktum to wait for a moment so he could complete his conversation. He frowned in the face of Ibn Umm Maktum and turned away from him in order to face the other man." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir) 


This is why tafsirs are still useful.

Is this incident mentioned in the hadith?

Originally posted by TG12345

I will be sure to point this out to you the next time you use them to 'explain' what verses from the Quran mean (or to support your interpretation of them). Wink


Originally posted by islamispeace

You can point it out, but it will be ignored, because you are not in a position to offer your own fatwas!  Big%20smile


Originally posted by TG12345

Why would that need to be the case? Is everything that Ibn Abbas said that is not recorded in the hadith false?


Originally posted by islamispeace

As I said, Muslims rely on the Quran and the authentic hadiths.  Everything else has to be checked against these two sources.  If something is not mentioned in either one, that does not necessarily mean it is wrong.  It just means that we have no authentic information about it.  In that case, we have to refrain from making judgments.

Is the story of Muhammad apologizing to Ibn Umm Maktum found in an authentic hadith?
 
Originally posted by TG12345

From this exchange, I guess though that his tafsir, and the tafsirs Jalalayn and Kathir should be dismissed since they contain all kinds of inaccuracies based on ex-Christians and ex-Jews.

I didn't get that far yet, I guess. Given that they are not completely reliable, it would be best if you stopped using them to explain what the Quran teaches.


Originally posted by islamispeace

It is not up to you to determine what should be "dismissed".  I have already shown the reasons.

Your reasons don't show evidence that the tafsir can be trusted, since we don't know which parts of it are 'authentic' and which are based on Jewish sources.


Originally posted by TG12345

Why would God tell Noah to take two of every species of his animals? Domestic animals of some sort live in every part of the world!


Originally posted by islamispeace

Are you sure?  There are such things as different species or breeds of the same animals.  For example, there are different breeds of sheep, ranging from the "Africana" (which are found in South America) and "Damara" (which were found in East Asia and Egypt) http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/ - [1] .

It is perfectly plausible that Noah's animals were only found in a certain region. 

Are you saying it's impossible to find sheep in other parts of the planet?

Originally posted by TG12345

I guess then it is also possible that when you believe God said "every nation in the following passage", He could have meant every nation in the middle east:

16:36

And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.

http://quran.com/16


I am assuming you aren't sure about that, either? Notice that the author didn't mention the Chinese, as you noticed tafsir Jalalayn does not.

Does the Quran or hadith specifically say that this means every nation, and is not just limited to a part of the world?


Originally posted by islamispeace

You know, sarcasm is only funny when the person doing it knows what he is talking about!  Wink

If you read the verse carefully and note the context, you would see what it is saying:

"And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers."

This is talking about every nation on the earth.  Moreover, there are other verses in the Quran which clearly state that prophets were sent to all nations:

"Verily We have sent thee in truth, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner: and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them (in the past). And if they reject thee, so did their predecessors, to whom came their messengers with Clear Signs, Books of dark prophecies, and the Book of Enlightenment." (35:24-25)   


Further still, the hadiths also state that prophets were sent to all nations:

"Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: Allah's Apostle said, 'Nations were displayed before me; one or two prophets would pass by along with a few followers. A prophet would pass by accompanied by nobody. Then a big crowd of people passed in front of me and I asked, Who are they Are they my followers?" It was said, 'No. It is Moses and his followers It was said to me, 'Look at the horizon.'' Behold! There was a multitude of people filling the horizon. Then it was said to me, 'Look there and there about the stretching sky! Behold! There was a multitude filling the horizon,' It was said to me, 'This is your nation out of whom seventy thousand shall enter Paradise without reckoning.' [...]" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 71, Number 606)
 
Notice that this hadith was narrated by Ibn Abbas!  This is an authentic narration and was not based on the Israliyyat. 

That's funny, because you have no problem assuming that "every nation" or "there was never a people..." means literally every nation when mentioned in the Quran or hadith, yet when Ibn Jalalayn writes all human beings you ask if this includes the Chinese...

Being consistent goes a long way.

Originally posted by TG12345

Why would it have been impossible for God to fit them in?


Originally posted by islamispeace

If that is your best argument for a global flood, then an equally valid question is why didn't God just miraculously save the believers and the animals without the need for a wooden ark?  Was that impossible?

Because both the Quran and Bible say He had Noah build one and that He saved those who believed in Him (Noah and his family). Both the Quran and Bible say Noah took two of every kinds of animal on the Ark with him.

They don't say that there was no Ark.

Originally posted by TG12345

Or there is another possibility... that only Noah's people were on the earth at that time, and there were no various nations yet.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Then a global flood would definitely not make any sense.  What would be the point of destroying the whole world when only Noah's people were inhabiting it?  Why would there be a need to destroy uninhabited lands?  Or are you assuming that Noah's people were so numerous that they inhabited the entire planet, including North and South America and Australia?

Who knows, why not?

Originally posted by TG12345

According to Bassem Zawadi, it is entirely possible that Noah's people were the only ones around, so the flood drowned all humans who were not on the Ark.

Surah 71:26-27 could be interpreted in more than one way. One way is that Noah was praying against the disbelievers in his land. Another way is that Noah was making a general prayer against all disbelievers on planet earth; however that does not necessarily imply that the flood was global. Our Islamic sources (contrary to Biblical sources) do not tell us exactly how many years ago this event took place. Thus, we don't know how the people were spread about the earth at that time. It is said that Noah came after Adam by approximately ten generations. It would be far fetched to believe that in such a time span so many people spread throughout the entire planet. It is most likely that all the people on planet Earth were only Noah's people or some other people who did not live very far away from Noah's land. Therefore, a universal flood wouldn't be necessary in order to wipe out all disbelievers from the face of the planet earth (America was supposedly not discovered at this time yet, so why have a flood occur there?)

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_s_article__does_the_quran_teach_a_local_flood__

What's your view on this?


Originally posted by islamispeace

You ignored that Zawadi also pointed out that if Noah's people were the only ones on earth, then a global flood makes no sense, as I also pointed out. 

I think it is unlikely that Noah's people were the only ones inhabiting the earth.  It all depends on how long ago we are talking about.  Neither the Quran nor the Hadiths state how many years have passed since the flood.  Therefore, it would be nothing but speculation.  There is evidence of various civilizations in different places on the earth from thousands of years ago. 

Weren't there ten generations between Noah and Adam in Islam?

Originally posted by TG12345

If He was referring to two of every species in the region, why include the birds? They are completely capable of migration.

A bird can easily fly away to a different place. Yet God told Noah to take all species into the Ark with him and his family.

The claim that "all species" refers to all animals in a particular region makes no sense, since many animals are capable of migration and birds can simply fly away.
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

Not all birds are migratory and some birds are only capable of migrating short-distances http://www.birds.cornell.edu/AllAboutBirds/studying/migration/ - [2] .  The same applies to animals. 

And like I said, some animals are adapted to their environment.  Migration would mean that they may have to move to a different environment, one which is not suited for them.

You listed South America as a possible part of the world where there were unique species of sheep. However, many birds that live there are migratory and travel across whole continents every year.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/SCBI/MigratoryBirds/Fact_Sheets/default.cfm?fxsht=9

The same is true of some birds that live in Egypt.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Migratory-Animals-of-Africa:-Egyptian-Geese&id=6377896

And of some birds in East Asia.

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/migratory/waterbirds/index.html

If only a region was flooded, it couldn't have been in East Asia, Egypt or South America, since many of the animals who live there are migratory and wouldn't have needed to be taken on the Ark in pairs of two.

Originally posted by TG12345

Arguing this applied to only the domestic animals is equally baffling, since most types of domestic animals are found across the globe. People have livestock, dogs, cats, almost everywhere in the world.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Yes, but they may be different species or breeds, as I pointed out above.


Most livestock can be inbred, so that wouldn't have been a problem.

Also, what would have been the point in taking two of every pair of domestic animal? If they were used for food, it could have taken a year before they bred with each other. Wouldn't have they been eaten by then?

Also, the verse says "two of every species" Are animals that are not livestock not species?


Also, how would you interpret 69:11,12?


Sahih International
Indeed, when the water overflowed, We carried your ancestors in the sailing ship

That We might make it for you a reminder and [that] a conscious ear would be conscious of it.

http://quran.com/69

Why are the people on Noah's Ark referred to as the "ancestors" of the people chapter 69 is addressed to (since you believe the Quran is addressed to everyone does that not mean also me and you)?

I know you'll discount Ibn Abbas' commentary, but he wrote:

(Lo! when the waters rose) at the time of Noah, (We carried you) O community of Muhammad (pbuh) as well as all created beings in the loins of your fathers (upon the ship) in the ship of Noah.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=69&tAyahNo=11&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

How were the people on Noah's Ark yours and mine ancestors? Other translations use the word "you". How were "you" on the ship?

Interestingly, the author of Islam QA uses this translation of 69:11 :

Verily! When the water rose beyond its limits [Nuh’s Flood], We carried you [mankind] in the floating (ship that was constructed by Nuh).

http://www.islamqa.info/en/ref/1485/noah


Originally posted by TG12345

We agree that the Bible teaches the flood was global. We agree also that the tafsirs do teach that the flood was global. I see that according to you they are also inaccurate and therefore I trust you will not use them in the future to explain the Quran or refer to them for a better understanding.


Originally posted by islamispeace

They are only as inaccurate as any works of men, including the Bible.

Both the Bible, tafsirs and Quran were written by men. Only difference is the Bible's authors were inspired by God. Smile

Originally posted by islamispeace

  You have no basis to tell me not to use the tafsirs, as they are still useful in explaining the context of certain events that occurred in the life of the Prophet and his companions.

And you can tell me to not use them?

Originally posted by islamispeace

What is most important is that the explanations in the tafsirs be supported by authentic narrations, such as those found in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim.

Is the incident of Muhammad apologizing to Ibn Umm Maktum found in either Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim?

Originally posted by TG12345

BTW can you please show me scholarly sources from close to the time of the tafsir writers that claim that the flood was regional, as you and some Muslims claim?


Originally posted by islamispeace

I don't know of any.  Regardless, since the Quran and Sunnah do not explain the nature of the flood and the verses technically can be interpreted to go both ways, the best we can say is that the flood destroyed Noah's people only.

Thanks for your honesty.

Interestingly, we have three tafsir writers who claim that the flood was global, and we have zero tafsir writers or scholars who claim it was regional.

Originally posted by TG12345

t's an offhand observation. I try to stay away from sites like "answering-islam", which also offer Christian perspectives on the Bible but are used often to attack Muslims. If I am not incorrect, you encourage people to not use "answering islam" as a source... yet you are using a guy whose articles appear on "answering christianity" and writes in the same style as anti-Muslim Christians do.


[QUOTE=islamispeace]I encourage people not to use "Answering-Islam" as a source on Islam.  I could care less if they use it for some other purpose.  The website I referred to is a Muslim website.  I used it to refer to a Muslim view on the flood.  That is not the same as using a Christian polemical website like "Answering-Islam" to "learn" about Islam.


Thanks for clarifying what you meant. Answering-Islam has some good defence of Christian theology, but is full of errors about what Islam teaches. I don't use it as my source. Although I look at the website sometimes, whatever they have to say about Islam I do a lot of my own research on before even considering whether to think about using it. Wink


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 January 2013 at 10:48am

Salaam Alaikum. I found this fatwa that also claims that all human beings who were not with Noah on the Ark were destroyed, and that the flood was a global one. 



Fatwa No : 8588

Nooh (Noah), may Allaah exalt his mention, is the second father of humanity

  Fatwa Date : Rabee' Al-Aakhir 13, 1433 / 7-3-2012

Question

I have some questions about  Nooh %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20exalt%20%20his%20%20mention:

1- Is he considered the first of all prophets and the father of humankind after Aadam (Adam) %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20exalt%20%20his%20%20mention?

2- Did the flood during his time cover the whole earth or was it confined to the place where he lived?

Answer

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad %20sallallaahu%20%20`alayhi%20%20wa%20%20sallam%20%28%20may%20%20Allaah%20exalt%20his%20mention%20%29 is His slave and Messenger.

The first of all prophets was Aadam, not Nooh, may Allaah exalt their mention, since Allaah The Almighty spoke to him more than once. Indeed it is known that if Allaah The Almighty speaks with any man, that man is a prophet. Allaah The Almighty Says (what means): {He said, "O Adam, inform them of their names." And when he had informed them of their names, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth? And I know what you reveal and what you have concealed."} [Quran 2:33]

As for your second question, Nooh %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20exalt%20%20his%20%20mention is the second father of humankind after Aadam %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20exalt%20%20his%20%20mention and the first prophet after him too, because the flood exterminated all human beings except Nooh %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20exalt%20%20his%20%20mention and those who were with him on the Ark. Ibn Hajar, the Shaaf‘i scholar %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20have%20%20mercy%20%20upon%20%20him confirmed this opinion, arguing that none had survived the flood with Nooh %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20exalt%20%20his%20%20mention except the believers among those to whom he had been sent. Mankind was limited to those who remained with him whilst the others all perished. 

Moreover, the Quranic verse in which Allaah The Almighty Says (what means): {And We made his descendants those remaining [on the earth].} [Quran 37:77] apparently means that all existing humans are from the descendants of Nooh %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20exalt%20%20his%20%20mention.

This suggests two possibilities: All those on board the ark were descendents of Nooh %20may%20%20Allaah%20%20exalt%20%20his%20%20mention or some of them were not descendents of him but left no offspring.

Allaah Knows best.


http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=8588



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 January 2013 at 11:14am
In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Originally posted by TG21345

How do you decide what is based on the Israeliyat and what isn't? What assurance do you have that if the tafsir writers listened to the Jewish interpretation of events that happened during the time of Noah, they didn't listen to Jewish intepretation of events that happened at the battle of Badr?


Why would they?  As I said, the authentic sources of information are the Quran and authentic hadiths.  Whatever information is not found there must be left alone.  The Quran and Hadiths both speak about the Battle of Badr.  Why on earth would the exegetes rely on Jewish information about the battle, if there even was any, when they have authentic information in the Hadiths?  In any case, in the unlikely scenario that they did use Jewish sources on the Battle of Badr, all one needs to do is compare it to the information found in the Hadiths.  Anything that diverges from the latter is then obviously to be rejected.

Originally posted by TG12345

In your words they should be "read with caution" and are "not completely reliable". How do you know which parts are and are not based on Jewish religious traditions or on the accounts of ex-Jews?
  

As I said, anything that can be found in the Quran and Hadiths is authentic.  Anything that isn't is questionable and up to debate.

Originally posted by TG12345

If the author claimed "all human beings are descended from Noah", this would either imply that the Chinese originated from one of these races, or that he did not believe they were part of the human race. I would assume the first possibility.


But he didn't name all humans!  End of story.

Originally posted by TG12345

Nothing you have written so far shows they can be trusted. Do you have a list of reliable and unreliable tafsir?


As I said, only the Quran and authentic hadiths are fully reliable.  The tafsirs are not scriptures, so why would anyone say that they are infallible or contain no mistakes?  Not one Muslim says that.  You are the only one who seems to think that a non-scriptural source has to be either completely correct or it is to be rejected.  Not one Muslim scholar would agree with you. 

There is no such thing as a "reliable tafsir" or "unreliable tafsir".  Unless the author was a known heretic, any tafsir can be used, but as I said, it should be used with caution.

Originally posted by TG12345

I asked you what proof is there that Ibn Abbas was drawing from this hadith. Zawadi says the hadith is weak. Does he or do you have proof Ibn Abbas drew from it?
 

No one said that Ibn Abbas used this narration.  But, since the tafsir does say that Noah's three sons were the ancestors of all the world's nations, it is completely plausible that he was basing this on the narration in question, or another related narration. 

The major point is that this narration is weak.  It is not an authentic narration and therefore is not admissible as evidence that all nations are descended from Noah's three sons.

Originally posted by TG12345

You are telling me what Muslim sources I can and cannot use, by discounting the evidence I presented from the tafsir which state clearly that the flood was global and affected every human being on the planet by saying it isn't proof and then posting Zawadi's article who claims it is the tafsirs are not a "reliable source".


First, as a Muslim, I am fully within my right to tell you what sources are reliable and what are not.  If you want to prove anything to a Muslim, you need to use the Quran and Sunnah.  Anything else is not scripture and therefore cannot be considered error-proof.

Second, show me one Islamic scholar who says that the tafsirs are completely reliable and that Muslims can blindly trust everything that is in them.  I can tell you now that you will not be able to find such scholars.  That is why I said that you are overstepping your boundaries.  You are trying to tell Muslims what sources they can and cannot use, and you are doing this on your own authority. 

Third, even if the tafsirs are taken into account, there is no evidence in them that the flood was global.  Just because they said that all nations are descended from Noah's three sons does not necessarily mean that the flood was global, since it is possible that Noah's people were the only ones on the earth prior to the flood, although as I said before, that depends on how long ago we are talking about.  In fact, the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas states in the commentary on 21:77 that:

"(And delivered him from the people who denied Our revelations) who disbelieved in Our Scripture and Messenger Noah. (Lo! they were folk of evil) in their state of disbelief, (therefore did We drown them all) by the flood." http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=21&tAyahNo=77&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - [1]


Here, it is stated clearly that the flood destroyed Noah's people.  No mention is made of it being a global flood.  The same is stated in the commentary on 29:14:

"(And verily We sent Noah (as Our messenger) unto his folk, and he continued with them for a thousand years save fifty years) calling them to profess Allah's divine Oneness but they did not respond to him; (and
the flood engulfed them) and Allah destroyed them by the flood, (for they were wrong-doers) they were disbelievers." http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=29&tAyahNo=14&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - [2]


In addition, whenever the Quran refers to God's punishment on previous nations, it always refers to those nations only being punished, and not the whole earth.  Why would the flood be any different?  As it states in the commentary on 9:70:

"(Hath not the fame) the news (of those before them reached them) how We destroyed them (the folk of Noah) We destroyed them by drowning, ('Aad) the people of Hud, We destroyed them by the wind, (Thamud) the people of Salih, We destroyed them by means of the earthquake, (the folk of Abraham) We destroyed them by razing them down, (the dwellers of Midian) the people of Shu'ayb, We destroyed them by the earthquake (and the disasters) the deniers who were swallowed up by the earth, i.e. the people of Lot who were destroyed by being swallowed up by the earth and also by a rain of stones? (Their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with proofs) with commands and prohibitions as well as signs, but they refused to believe in them and Allah destroyed them. (So Allah surely wronged them not) by destroying them, (but they did wrong themselves) through disbelief and giving the lie to the prophets." http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=9&tAyahNo=70&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - [3]

Originally posted by TG12345

Use whatever sources you want. I just think it's interesting you are telling me which sources I should and should not use.


Why not?  You are trying to issue "fatwas" on what Muslims should believe!  And you are doing it using sources that no Muslims would regard as error-proof.  So, yes, I am telling you what Muslim sources you can and cannot use to tell Muslims what they should believe.

Originally posted by TG12345

Is this incident mentioned in the hadith?

Is the story of Muhammad apologizing to Ibn Umm Maktum found in an authentic hadith?


It is stated in "Malik's Muwatta":

"Yahya related to me from Malik from Hisham ibn Urwa that his father said that Abasa (Sura 80) was sent down about Abdullah ibn Umm Maktum. He came to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and began to say, "O Muhammad, show me a place near you (where I can sit)," whilst one of the leading men of the idol worshippers was in audience with the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, began to turn away from him and give his attention to the other man, and he said to him, "Father of so-and-so, do you see any harm in what I am saying?" and he said, "No, by the blood (of our sacrifices) I see no harm in what you are saying." And Abasa - "He frowned and turned away when the blind man came" - was sent down." http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=15&translator=4&start=0&number=0 - [4]

Originally posted by TG12345

Your reasons don't show evidence that the tafsir can be trusted, since we don't know which parts of it are 'authentic' and which are based on Jewish sources.


I already stated that whatever can be corroborated with the Quran and authentic hadiths is to be accepted.  Everything else is questionable.  So, if any one wanted to prove that the flood was global, they would need to provide evidence from the Quran or authentic hadiths, neither one of which states clearly that the flood was global.  In fact, the Quran always states that the flood was sent to specifically punish Noah's people.  Therefore, unless Noah's people had spread throughout the earth (which is next to impossible), or they were the only people on earth at the time (which would then negate the necessity of a global flood) it is highly improbable that the flood was global.

Originally posted by TG12345

Are you saying it's impossible to find sheep in other parts of the planet?


Did you read my response?  I said that there are different species and breeds of the same animals!  One specific species or breed may be found in only one particular region.  There have been numerous breeds of sheep, some of which are found in particular areas of the world.  An Africana breed is different from a Damara breed.

Originally posted by TG12345

That's funny, because you have no problem assuming that "every nation" or "there was never a people..." means literally every nation when mentioned in the Quran or hadith, yet when Ibn Jalalayn writes all human beings you ask if this includes the Chinese...
 

Except that the tafsir "Al-Jalalayn" (not ibn Jalalayn) did not refer to every nation.  They would have been fully aware of the Chinese, yet the tafsir never mentioned them.  From the context, by no stretch of the imagination can one claim that the tafsir was referring to all people of the world.  In fact, it only mentions the Arabs, Persians, Byzantines, Africans, Turks, Khazars and the people of Gog and Magog (whoever they are).  As you can see, this only covers most of Asia and Africa and some parts of Europe.  That's it. 

In addition, I showed the context of 16:36 as referring to the entire world.  I also showed another verse which clearly refers to messengers being sent to all nations of the earth and backed it further with an authentic hadith. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Being consistent goes a long way.


It most certainly does, and so far, the only one being inconsistent is you, given that you have not provided any evidence from the Quran and Sunnah for any of your assertions.

Originally posted by TG12345

Because both the Quran and Bible say He had Noah build one and that He saved those who believed in Him (Noah and his family). Both the Quran and Bible say Noah took two of every kinds of animal on the Ark with him.

They don't say that there was no Ark.


What I am saying is that if you think that all the animals of the world would have been miraculously fitted in an ark, and that is one of the "proofs" that the flood was global, then why would there have been a need for an ark in the first place?  If God can do anything, which He can, then an ark would have been unnecessary.  Moreover, if size did not matter, then why did God (according to the Bible) give specific instructions to Noah (pbuh) on the exact size and dimensions of this ark?

"So make yourself an ark of cypress http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-152c - c ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6&version=NIV#fen-NIV-152c - c ] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high." (Genesis 6:14-16)

If you say that God could fit the millions of species which would have been brought on board (which He could), then technically Noah (pbuh) could have built an ark so small that he could step on it, and yet God could still miraculously fit everyone and everything inside.  The very fact that Noah (pbuh) was given specific dimensions implies that the ark was to built so as to have enough room.  Therefore, to claim that every single species was to be brought on board makes very little sense.  There would not have been enough room, plain and simple.

Originally posted by TG12345

Who knows, why not?


Because there is no evidence.  People did not begin exploring the world until only about 1000 years ago. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Weren't there ten generations between Noah and Adam in Islam?


A generation in that time period could have meant as much as 10,000 years.  Noah (pbuh) lived to the age of 950, so one generation was not necessarily only 100 years or so.  Also, there are no authentic hadiths that I know of that say that there were 10 generations between Adam and Noah.

Originally posted by TG12345

You listed South America as a possible part of the world where there were unique species of sheep. However, many birds that live there are migratory and travel across whole continents every year.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/SCBI/MigratoryBirds/Fact_Sheets/default.cfm?fxsht=9

The same is true of some birds that live in Egypt.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Migratory-Animals-of-Africa:-Egyptian-Geese&id=6377896

And of some birds in East Asia.

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/migratory/waterbirds/index.html

If only a region was flooded, it couldn't have been in East Asia, Egypt or South America, since many of the animals who live there are migratory and wouldn't have needed to be taken on the Ark in pairs of two.


The first source clearly states what I already mentioned:

"Migration distances vary greatly between species and between individual birds of the same species."

So, not all birds migrate long distances.

The second source only refers to Egyptian geese. 

None of your sources provide any evidence that all animals and birds are capable of migrating, let alone for long distances.  

Regarding sheep, I didn't say that there was a "possibility" that there were other breeds, I stated so clearly.  Different breeds of sheep have existed throughout the world for thousands of years.  This also applies to other farm animals as well. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Most livestock can be inbred, so that wouldn't have been a problem.


What are you basing this on?  According to the University of Missouri:

"Development of highly productive inbred lines of domestic livestock is possible. To date, however, such attempts have met with little apparent success. Although occasional high performance animals are produced, inbreeding generally results in an overall reduction in performance. This reduction is manifested in many ways. The most obvious effects of inbreeding are poorer reproductive efficiency including higher mortality rates, lower growth rates and a higher frequency of hereditary abnormalities. This has been shown by numerous studies with cattle, horses, sheep, swine and laboratory animals." http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G2911 - [5]

In any case, none of this changes the fact that there exist different breeds of the same animals in different parts of the world. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Also, what would have been the point in taking two of every pair of domestic animal? If they were used for food, it could have taken a year before they bred with each other. Wouldn't have they been eaten by then?


The same question can be asked as to how the other pairs of animals were being fed.  We don't know the answer.  Perhaps God provided food for Noah (pbuh) and his followers as well as for the animals. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Also, the verse says "two of every species" Are animals that are not livestock not species?
 

Again, you are assuming that "every species" meant every species on the face of the earth, but if only Noah's people were affected, which the Quran makes clear, then Noah (pbuh) would have known that God was talking about every species in his homeland.  It makes no sense to tell Noah (pbuh) to go get two polar bears from the Arctic and bring them to his homeland.  It seems pretty clear that God was referring to two pairs in the region, not from across the world.  It could also mean that God was only referring to Noah's animals only.  You are interpreting the verse to say something that it is not necessarily saying.  The context of the verse makes the claim that every single species on earth was supposed to be collected almost impossible to sustain.



There appears to be consensus among the scholars that the word "you" actually means "your ancestors".  But, there is disagreement as to who "you" refers to.  This can be seen in the fact that the tafsirs which you so enthusiastically quoted before are not in total agreement:

"Truly when the waters rose high, [when] they rose above all things including mountains and otherwise at the time of the Flood, We carried you, meaning, your forefathers, you being in their loins, in the sailing vessel, the ark which Noah built and by which he and those with him were saved while all the others drowned," (Tafsir al-Jalalayn)


Notice that this tafsir does not even mention who the "you" is.  On the other hand, Ibn Kathir states that this verse meant that all mankind is descended from "Nuh and his progeny" along with  

The fact is that the verse does not specify who the "you" is, nor does it specifically mention all of mankind.  It could be referring to the Arabs or it could be referring to all of mankind.  If it is the latter, that still does not prove that the flood was global.  It just means that mankind is descended from Noah's sons. 

The context of the verse shows that the flood affected Noah's people only.  The previous verses mention other nations that were destroyed for their sins such as the 'Ad and Thamud.  None of these disasters were global, so why would Noah's flood be any different?  It is possible that all of mankind is descended from Noah's sons, but that does not imply that the flood was global.

Originally posted by TG12345

Both the Bible, tafsirs and Quran were written by men. Only difference is the Bible's authors were inspired by God. Smile


Yet despite this "inspiration", the Bible contains inconsistencies and has been edited on several occasions.  Therefore, it cannot be "inspired" by God. 

Originally posted by TG12345

And you can tell me to not use them?


I never said you can't use them.  I said you can't tell Muslims which parts to accept and which parts to reject.  You have no authority to tell us that.

Originally posted by TG12345

Is the incident of Muhammad apologizing to Ibn Umm Maktum found in either Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim?


It is is mentioned in Malik's Muwatta, which is considered to be reliable. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Thanks for your honesty.

Interestingly, we have three tafsir writers who claim that the flood was global, and we have zero tafsir writers or scholars who claim it was regional.


Not at all.  Only Ibn Kathir (and possibly the Tafsir al-Jalalayn) explicitly states that the flood was global (in his commentary on 69:11).  They all say that Noah's sons were the ancestors of all mankind (although all of them refer to only certain nations of the earth), but that does not mean that the flood was global. 

For example, consider the following verse:

"And Noah, said: "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth!" (71:26)

Yusuf Ali translated the word "ard" as "earth", which is technically correct.  However, the word can also mean "land", and so does not necessarily mean the whole earth.  In the commentary on this verse, the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas states:

"(And Noah said) after Allah told him that none of his people will believe in him, apart from those who had already believed: (My Lord!) O my Lord! (Leave not one of the disbelievers in the land." http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=71&tAyahNo=26&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - [6]

There is no indication here that the imminent flood would be global.  It certainly makes no sense since the context shows that only Noah's people are mentioned and not the whole world.  The Tafsir al-Jalalayn disagrees and appears to state that the flood was global:

"
And Noah said, ‘My Lord, do not leave from among the disbelievers a single dweller upon the earth (dayyār means ‘one who inhabits a dwelling [dār]’), in other words, not one." http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=71&tAyahNo=26&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - [7]

Therefore, as I said before, there is no definitive evidence that the flood was global.  The context of the verses which mention it makes a global flood unlikely as only Noah's people were the targets.  Since it is highly unlikely that Noah's people had managed to spread throughout the entire world, a global flood makes little sense.

Originally posted by TG12345

Thanks for clarifying what you meant. Answering-Islam has some good defence of Christian theology, but is full of errors about what Islam teaches. I don't use it as my source. Although I look at the website sometimes, whatever they have to say about Islam I do a lot of my own research on before even considering whether to think about using it. Wink


You shouldn't use it at all as a source on Islam.  That would be like me using a mechanic as a source on medicine! LOL


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 01 January 2013 at 2:12pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...

Holy is the Lord

Originally posted by TG21345

How do you decide what is based on the Israeliyat and what isn't? What assurance do you have that if the tafsir writers listened to the Jewish interpretation of events that happened during the time of Noah, they didn't listen to Jewish intepretation of events that happened at the battle of Badr?


Originally posted by islamispeace

Why would they?  As I said, the authentic sources of information are the Quran and authentic hadiths.  Whatever information is not found there must be left alone.  The Quran and Hadiths both speak about the Battle of Badr.  Why on earth would the exegetes rely on Jewish information about the battle, if there even was any, when they have authentic information in the Hadiths?  In any case, in the unlikely scenario that they did use Jewish sources on the Battle of Badr, all one needs to do is compare it to the information found in the Hadiths.  Anything that diverges from the latter is then obviously to be rejected.

Fair enough, you made your point.


Originally posted by TG12345

In your words they should be "read with caution" and are "not completely reliable". How do you know which parts are and are not based on Jewish religious traditions or on the accounts of ex-Jews?
  

Originally posted by islamispeace

As I said, anything that can be found in the Quran and Hadiths is authentic.  Anything that isn't is questionable and up to debate.

Fair enough, thanks for stating.

Originally posted by TG12345

If the author claimed "all human beings are descended from Noah", this would either imply that the Chinese originated from one of these races, or that he did not believe they were part of the human race. I would assume the first possibility.

Originally posted by islamispeace

But he didn't name all humans!  End of story.

Why would he have to name all the humans? What else can "all human beings are descended from Noah" possibly mean? Does the Quran list every single nation and people group on the planet?

Originally posted by TG12345

Nothing you have written so far shows they can be trusted. Do you have a list of reliable and unreliable tafsir?


Originally posted by islamispeace

As I said, only the Quran and authentic hadiths are fully reliable.  The tafsirs are not scriptures, so why would anyone say that they are infallible or contain no mistakes?  Not one Muslim says that.  You are the only one who seems to think that a non-scriptural source has to be either completely correct or it is to be rejected.  Not one Muslim scholar would agree with you.

Sorry for misunderstanding your approach. If what is written in the tafsirs are also in the Quran or hadith, it is authentic according to Islam, correct? if not, it is up for debate?
 
Originally posted by islamispeace

There is no such thing as a "reliable tafsir" or "unreliable tafsir".  Unless the author was a known heretic, any tafsir can be used, but as I said, it should be used with caution.

Fair enough.

Out of curiousity, can you tell me how do you know which hadith are authentic and which are not?


Originally posted by TG12345

I asked you what proof is there that Ibn Abbas was drawing from this hadith. Zawadi says the hadith is weak. Does he or do you have proof Ibn Abbas drew from it?
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

No one said that Ibn Abbas used this narration.  But, since the tafsir does say that Noah's three sons were the ancestors of all the world's nations, it is completely plausible that he was basing this on the narration in question, or another related narration. 

The major point is that this narration is weak.  It is not an authentic narration and therefore is not admissible as evidence that all nations are descended from Noah's three sons.

The hadith narration is weak, and if the author of tafsir Ibn Abbas got it from a weak hadith you would be right. If Ibn Abbas however heard this from Muhammad and wrote it down, it would be a different story.

Originally posted by TG12345

You are telling me what Muslim sources I can and cannot use, by discounting the evidence I presented from the tafsir which state clearly that the flood was global and affected every human being on the planet by saying it isn't proof and then posting Zawadi's article who claims it is the tafsirs are not a "reliable source".


Originally posted by islamispeace

First, as a Muslim, I am fully within my right to tell you what sources are reliable and what are not.  If you want to prove anything to a Muslim, you need to use the Quran and Sunnah.  Anything else is not scripture and therefore cannot be considered error-proof.

Fair enough. As a small aside, perhaps I will start doing the same with Christian sources, and tell you which ones you are and are not allowed to use.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Second, show me one Islamic scholar who says that the tafsirs are completely reliable and that Muslims can blindly trust everything that is in them.  I can tell you now that you will not be able to find such scholars.  That is why I said that you are overstepping your boundaries.  You are trying to tell Muslims what sources they can and cannot use, and you are doing this on your own authority. 

I didn't argue they were completely reliable and can be blindly trusted.

Originally posted by islamispeace

Third, even if the tafsirs are taken into account, there is no evidence in them that the flood was global.  Just because they said that all nations are descended from Noah's three sons does not necessarily mean that the flood was global, since it is possible that Noah's people were the only ones on the earth prior to the flood, although as I said before, that depends on how long ago we are talking about.  In fact, the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas states in the commentary on 21:77 that:

"(And delivered him from the people who denied Our revelations) who disbelieved in Our Scripture and Messenger Noah. (Lo! they were folk of evil) in their state of disbelief, (therefore did We drown them all) by the flood." http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=21&tAyahNo=77&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - [1]


Here, it is stated clearly that the flood destroyed Noah's people.  No mention is made of it being a global flood.  The same is stated in the commentary on 29:14:

"(And verily We sent Noah (as Our messenger) unto his folk, and he continued with them for a thousand years save fifty years) calling them to profess Allah's divine Oneness but they did not respond to him; (and
the flood engulfed them) and Allah destroyed them by the flood, (for they were wrong-doers) they were disbelievers." http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=29&tAyahNo=14&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - [2]



Fair enough, you can argue that the tafsirs do not argue there was a global flood. However, they do argue that it drowned all of humanity with the exception of the people who were on the Ark with Noah.

Originally posted by islamispeace

In addition, whenever the Quran refers to God's punishment on previous nations, it always refers to those nations only being punished, and not the whole earth.  Why would the flood be any different?  As it states in the commentary on 9:70:

"(Hath not the fame) the news (of those before them reached them) how We destroyed them (the folk of Noah) We destroyed them by drowning, ('Aad) the people of Hud, We destroyed them by the wind, (Thamud) the people of Salih, We destroyed them by means of the earthquake, (the folk of Abraham) We destroyed them by razing them down, (the dwellers of Midian) the people of Shu'ayb, We destroyed them by the earthquake (and the disasters) the deniers who were swallowed up by the earth, i.e. the people of Lot who were destroyed by being swallowed up by the earth and also by a rain of stones? (Their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with proofs) with commands and prohibitions as well as signs, but they refused to believe in them and Allah destroyed them. (So Allah surely wronged them not) by destroying them, (but they did wrong themselves) through disbelief and giving the lie to the prophets." http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=9&tAyahNo=70&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - [3]

You are correct, however there is one major difference. The Quran does not call the survivors of the people of Hud or Aad or Thamud or Salih or Lot or ShuAyb our ancestors or refer them to us as "you".

I am also unaware of any scholars believing that all of humanity except the people of Lot, Hud, ShuAyb, Thamud, Salih, Aad perished, or the survivors being referred to as our ancestors.

Originally posted by TG12345

Use whatever sources you want. I just think it's interesting you are telling me which sources I should and should not use.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Why not?  You are trying to issue "fatwas" on what Muslims should believe!  And you are doing it using sources that no Muslims would regard as error-proof.  So, yes, I am telling you what Muslim sources you can and cannot use to tell Muslims what they should believe.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by TG12345

Is this incident mentioned in the hadith?

Is the story of Muhammad apologizing to Ibn Umm Maktum found in an authentic hadith?


Originally posted by islamispeace

It is stated in "Malik's Muwatta":

"Yahya related to me from Malik from Hisham ibn Urwa that his father said that Abasa (Sura 80) was sent down about Abdullah ibn Umm Maktum. He came to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and began to say, "O Muhammad, show me a place near you (where I can sit)," whilst one of the leading men of the idol worshippers was in audience with the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, began to turn away from him and give his attention to the other man, and he said to him, "Father of so-and-so, do you see any harm in what I am saying?" and he said, "No, by the blood (of our sacrifices) I see no harm in what you are saying." And Abasa - "He frowned and turned away when the blind man came" - was sent down." http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=15&translator=4&start=0&number=0 - [4]

Thank you for showing me.

Originally posted by TG12345

Your reasons don't show evidence that the tafsir can be trusted, since we don't know which parts of it are 'authentic' and which are based on Jewish sources.


Originally posted by islamispeace

I already stated that whatever can be corroborated with the Quran and authentic hadiths is to be accepted.  Everything else is questionable.  So, if any one wanted to prove that the flood was global, they would need to provide evidence from the Quran or authentic hadiths, neither one of which states clearly that the flood was global.  In fact, the Quran always states that the flood was sent to specifically punish Noah's people.  Therefore, unless Noah's people had spread throughout the earth (which is next to impossible), or they were the only people on earth at the time (which would then negate the necessity of a global flood) it is highly improbable that the flood was global.

I think there is evidence from the Quran that the flood drowned all humanity except those on the Ark, and there are scholars who are Muslim who also believe this. I also think the fact that two of every kind of animal were gathered on the ship implies the flood was global according to even the Quran. However, I think that it is less certain than that all of humanity except Noah and his family were drowned.

Originally posted by TG12345

Are you saying it's impossible to find sheep in other parts of the planet?


Originally posted by islamispeace

Did you read my response?  I said that there are different species and breeds of the same animals!  One specific species or breed may be found in only one particular region.  There have been numerous breeds of sheep, some of which are found in particular areas of the world.  An Africana breed is different from a Damara breed.

You are correct on that. I think that if "two of every species" was a reference to only livestock you could be correct. However, I don't see why the Quran's author would not write simply "your livestock" if he meant it only applied to farm animals.

Originally posted by TG12345

That's funny, because you have no problem assuming that "every nation" or "there was never a people..." means literally every nation when mentioned in the Quran or hadith, yet when Ibn Jalalayn writes all human beings you ask if this includes the Chinese...
 

Originally posted by islamispeace

Except that the tafsir "Al-Jalalayn" (not ibn Jalalayn) did not refer to every nation.  They would have been fully aware of the Chinese, yet the tafsir never mentioned them.  From the context, by no stretch of the imagination can one claim that the tafsir was referring to all people of the world.  In fact, it only mentions the Arabs, Persians, Byzantines, Africans, Turks, Khazars and the people of Gog and Magog (whoever they are).  As you can see, this only covers most of Asia and Africa and some parts of Europe.  That's it. 

Perhaps he believed all humanity descended from these groups. The phrase all human beings means exactly that, unless you can prove otherwise.

His tafsir of 69:11 says the forefathers of the people reading the verse were in the loins of Noah's people.

Truly when the waters rose high, [when] they rose above all things including mountains and otherwise at the time of the Flood, We carried you, meaning, your forefathers, you being in their loins, in the sailing vessel, the ark which Noah built and by which he and those with him were saved while all the others drowned,

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=69&tAyahNo=11&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Clearly, we are their descendants!

Originally posted by islamispeace

In addition, I showed the context of 16:36 as referring to the entire world.  I also showed another verse which clearly refers to messengers being sent to all nations of the earth and backed it further with an authentic hadith. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Being consistent goes a long way.


Originally posted by islamispeace

It most certainly does, and so far, the only one being inconsistent is you, given that you have not provided any evidence from the Quran and Sunnah for any of your assertions.

You are also being inconsistent, by claiming that when the Quran or hadith talk about humanity they mean all humanity but when Ibn Jalalayn does so you believe he only meant certain people groups because like the Quran and hadiths, he did not mention them all.

Originally posted by TG12345

Because both the Quran and Bible say He had Noah build one and that He saved those who believed in Him (Noah and his family). Both the Quran and Bible say Noah took two of every kinds of animal on the Ark with him.

They don't say that there was no Ark.


Originally posted by islamispeace

What I am saying is that if you think that all the animals of the world would have been miraculously fitted in an ark, and that is one of the "proofs" that the flood was global, then why would there have been a need for an ark in the first place?  If God can do anything, which He can, then an ark would have been unnecessary.  Moreover, if size did not matter, then why did God (according to the Bible) give specific instructions to Noah (pbuh) on the exact size and dimensions of this ark?

"So make yourself an ark of cypress http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-152c - c ]">[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+6&version=NIV#fen-NIV-152c - c ] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high." (Genesis 6:14-16)

If you say that God could fit the millions of species which would have been brought on board (which He could), then technically Noah (pbuh) could have built an ark so small that he could step on it, and yet God could still miraculously fit everyone and everything inside.  The very fact that Noah (pbuh) was given specific dimensions implies that the ark was to built so as to have enough room.  Therefore, to claim that every single species was to be brought on board makes very little sense.  There would not have been enough room, plain and simple.

Of course God could have made the Ark any size He wanted. He could have made it much smaller than described in Genesis, He could have also made it much bigger. Yet miraculously He made all the animals fit in. Also, it is possible there were less species of animals in existence then.

Originally posted by TG12345

Who knows, why not?


Originally posted by islamispeace

Because there is no evidence.  People did not begin exploring the world until only about 1000 years ago. 

That's simply not true. Smile

http://www.eduplace.com/kids/socsci/ca/books/bkf3/imaps/AC_02_047_migration/AC_02_047_migration.html

Even if we discount the belief that the earth is millions of years old (I don't personally hold an opinion on that as I haven't done enough research on the topic), it is clear that people have been moving around the earth for thousands of years.

Originally posted by TG12345

Weren't there ten generations between Noah and Adam in Islam?


Originally posted by islamispeace

A generation in that time period could have meant as much as 10,000 years.  Noah (pbuh) lived to the age of 950, so one generation was not necessarily only 100 years or so.  Also, there are no authentic hadiths that I know of that say that there were 10 generations between Adam and Noah.

Interesting. I also couldn't any hadith in Bukhari or Muslim (and I don't have access to any of the other ones).

"Islamreligion" claims there is a hadith in Bukhari saying there were 10 generations between Adam and Noah but I couldn't find that.

Prophet Muhammad informed us that there were ten generations between Prophets Adam and Noah. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1199/#_ftn15017 - Originally posted by TG12345

You listed South America as a possible part of the world where there were unique species of sheep. However, many birds that live there are migratory and travel across whole continents every year.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/SCBI/MigratoryBirds/Fact_Sheets/default.cfm?fxsht=9

The same is true of some birds that live in Egypt.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Migratory-Animals-of-Africa:-Egyptian-Geese&id=6377896

And of some birds in East Asia.

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/migratory/waterbirds/index.html

If only a region was flooded, it couldn't have been in East Asia, Egypt or South America, since many of the animals who live there are migratory and wouldn't have needed to be taken on the Ark in pairs of two.


Originally posted by islamispeace

The first source clearly states what I already mentioned:

"Migration distances vary greatly between species and between individual birds of the same species."

So, not all birds migrate long distances.

Yes, but some of them do.

With nesting grounds as far north as land extends and wintering sites on the opposite end of the earth, arctic terns cover 22,000 miles (35,400 km) annually. Given that the sun never sets while these terns are nesting, nor during the time they spend near the South Pole, arctic terns enjoy more hours of daylight than any other species.

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/SCBI/MigratoryBirds/Fact_Sheets/default.cfm?fxsht=9

They would not have been included in the Ark, so claiming that all species of animals from that region went on the Ark wouldn't make sense.


Originally posted by islamispeace

The second source only refers to Egyptian geese. 

None of your sources provide any evidence that all animals and birds are capable of migrating, let alone for long distances.  

No, but in all these regions there are some who easily can. If the flood was only regional, they wouldn't have been taken on the Ark, therefore not all species from either of the regions you mentioned would have needed to go on Noah's boat.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Regarding sheep, I didn't say that there was a "possibility" that there were other breeds, I stated so clearly.  Different breeds of sheep have existed throughout the world for thousands of years.  This also applies to other farm animals as well. 

True.

Originally posted by TG12345

Most livestock can be inbred, so that wouldn't have been a problem.



Originally posted by islamispeace

What are you basing this on?  According to the University of Missouri:

"Development of highly productive inbred lines of domestic livestock is possible. To date, however, such attempts have met with little apparent success. Although occasional high performance animals are produced, inbreeding generally results in an overall reduction in performance. This reduction is manifested in many ways. The most obvious effects of inbreeding are poorer reproductive efficiency including higher mortality rates, lower growth rates and a higher frequency of hereditary abnormalities. This has been shown by numerous studies with cattle, horses, sheep, swine and laboratory animals." http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G2911 - [5]

As your source says it is possible to do so. Often and usually in fact this is unsuccessful but there have been times when the result was high performance of animals.

Is it illogical to assume that God could make them interbreed successfully, if humans have been sometimes able to achieve this?

Originally posted by islamispeace

In any case, none of this changes the fact that there exist different breeds of the same animals in different parts of the world. 

No, it doesn't. It also doesn't change the fact that inbreeding is a possibility. And that humans have occasionally been able to do it. I don't see why God would not be able to.

Originally posted by TG12345

Also, what would have been the point in taking two of every pair of domestic animal? If they were used for food, it could have taken a year before they bred with each other. Wouldn't have they been eaten by then?



Originally posted by islamispeace

The same question can be asked as to how the other pairs of animals were being fed.  We don't know the answer.  Perhaps God provided food for Noah (pbuh) and his followers as well as for the animals. 

I believe He did as well. I also believe He took two of every kinds of animal on the Ark... as both the Quran and Bible say.


Originally posted by TG12345

Also, the verse says "two of every species" Are animals that are not livestock not species?
 


Originally posted by islamispeace

Again, you are assuming that "every species" meant every species on the face of the earth, but if only Noah's people were affected, which the Quran makes clear, then Noah (pbuh) would have known that God was talking about every species in his homeland.

If 2 of every species in his homeland is what the passage means, then it is illogical because in every part of the world we examined so far there are species of animals that can migrate long distances.


Originally posted by islamispeace

It makes no sense to tell Noah (pbuh) to go get two polar bears from the Arctic and bring them to his homeland.  It seems pretty clear that God was referring to two pairs in the region, not from across the world.

It would if there was a global flood.


Originally posted by islamispeace

  It could also mean that God was only referring to Noah's animals only.  You are interpreting the verse to say something that it is not necessarily saying.  The context of the verse makes the claim that every single species on earth was supposed to be collected almost impossible to sustain.

I think if God wanted to say livestock, He would have said just that. Can you find me Muslim scholars who claim that "two of every species" refers to his livestock only?




Originally posted by islamispeace

There appears to be consensus among the scholars that the word "you" actually means "your ancestors".  But, there is disagreement as to who "you" refers to.  This can be seen in the fact that the tafsirs which you so enthusiastically quoted before are not in total agreement:

"Truly when the waters rose high, [when] they rose above all things including mountains and otherwise at the time of the Flood, We carried you, meaning, your forefathers, you being in their loins, in the sailing vessel, the ark which Noah built and by which he and those with him were saved while all the others drowned," (Tafsir al-Jalalayn)


Notice that this tafsir does not even mention who the "you" is.  On the other hand, Ibn Kathir states that this verse meant that all mankind is descended from "Nuh and his progeny" along with  

The fact is that the verse does not specify who the "you" is, nor does it specifically mention all of mankind.  It could be referring to the Arabs or it could be referring to all of mankind.  If it is the latter, that still does not prove that the flood was global.  It just means that mankind is descended from Noah's sons. 

Is chapter 69 addressed only to Arabs, or to everyone reading the Quran? I thought it was a universal book.

 If mankind descended from Noah's sons, then that means that no one on earth except for Noah and the people on the boat survived, wouldn't you agree?

Given that Al Jalalayn believes that Noah prayed for God to destroy all of the disbelievers on the entire earth, it is I think safe to say that he believed all humanity is descended from Noah and his family.

Originally posted by islamispeace

The context of the verse shows that the flood affected Noah's people only.  The previous verses mention other nations that were destroyed for their sins such as the 'Ad and Thamud.  None of these disasters were global, so why would Noah's flood be any different?  It is possible that all of mankind is descended from Noah's sons, but that does not imply that the flood was global.

I think a major difference is that there is no talk of either of these prophets praying for all disbelievers on earth to be destroyed, or of them taking two of every species onto a boat, or the word "ancestors" being used to describe them.

Originally posted by TG12345

Both the Bible, tafsirs and Quran were written by men. Only difference is the Bible's authors were inspired by God. Smile



Originally posted by islamispeace

Yet despite this "inspiration", the Bible contains inconsistencies and has been edited on several occasions.  Therefore, it cannot be "inspired" by God.

Not as inconsistent as the Quran and hadiths. Wink 

Originally posted by TG12345

And you can tell me to not use them?



Originally posted by islamispeace

I never said you can't use them.  I said you can't tell Muslims which parts to accept and which parts to reject.  You have no authority to tell us that.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by TG12345

Is the incident of Muhammad apologizing to Ibn Umm Maktum found in either Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim?



Originally posted by islamispeace

It is is mentioned in Malik's Muwatta, which is considered to be reliable.

Thanks. That was a good example. 

Originally posted by TG12345

Thanks for your honesty.

Interestingly, we have three tafsir writers who claim that the flood was global, and we have zero tafsir writers or scholars who claim it was regional.



Originally posted by islamispeace

Not at all.  Only Ibn Kathir (and possibly the Tafsir al-Jalalayn) explicitly states that the flood was global (in his commentary on 69:11).  They all say that Noah's sons were the ancestors of all mankind (although all of them refer to only certain nations of the earth), but that does not mean that the flood was global. 

True. Ibn Abbas also states that Noah's sons were our ancestors.


Originally posted by islamispeace

For example, consider the following verse:

"And Noah, said: "O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth!" (71:26)

Yusuf Ali translated the word "ard" as "earth", which is technically correct.  However, the word can also mean "land", and so does not necessarily mean the whole earth.  In the commentary on this verse, the Tafsir of Ibn Abbas states:

"(And Noah said) after Allah told him that none of his people will believe in him, apart from those who had already believed: (My Lord!) O my Lord! (Leave not one of the disbelievers in the land." http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=71&tAyahNo=26&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - [6]

There is no indication here that the imminent flood would be global.  It certainly makes no sense since the context shows that only Noah's people are mentioned and not the whole world.  The Tafsir al-Jalalayn disagrees and appears to state that the flood was global:

"
And Noah said, ‘My Lord, do not leave from among the disbelievers a single dweller upon the earth (dayyār means ‘one who inhabits a dwelling [dār]’), in other words, not one." http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=71&tAyahNo=26&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 - [7]

Therefore, as I said before, there is no definitive evidence that the flood was global.  The context of the verses which mention it makes a global flood unlikely as only Noah's people were the targets.  Since it is highly unlikely that Noah's people had managed to spread throughout the entire world, a global flood makes little sense.

So there is disagreement between the tafsir scholars on whether the flood was global or not. All of them seem to agree that "we" (as long as chapter 69 is addressed to us and not only Arabs) are descendants of Noah and his family.

Also, it is interesting if we continue to examine tafsir Al Jalalayn of 71:28, especially how it ends.

Ibn Jalalayn prayed for all the disbelievers on the earth to be destroyed in 71:26 and in 71:28 according to Al Jalalayn God granted this request. He destroyed all the disbelievers on the earth, which Al Jalalayn states is 'inhabiting a dwelling'.

My Lord, forgive me and my parents — both of whom were believers — and whoever enters my house, my dwelling or my place of worship, as a believer, and believing men and believing women, to the Day of Resurrection, and do not increase the evildoers except in ruin’, in destruction — and thus they were destroyed.

We can conclude that both Ibn Jalalayn and Ibn Kathir believed God killed all the disbelievers on the earth, and I would argue this indicates the flood was global. I also found a fatwa which I posted in this thread (look on previous page, it just passed the review lol) which states that the flood was global. So we do have Muslim scholars who agree it was a global flood. Can you find me scholars who argue that it was not, and that it did not wipe out all of humanity?


Originally posted by TG12345

Thanks for clarifying what you meant. Answering-Islam has some good defence of Christian theology, but is full of errors about what Islam teaches. I don't use it as my source. Although I look at the website sometimes, whatever they have to say about Islam I do a lot of my own research on before even considering whether to think about using it. Wink


[QUOTE=islamispeace]You shouldn't use it at all as a source on Islam.  That would be like me using a mechanic as a source on medicine! LOL

I once tried that. It didn't work for me either. Kidding! Big%20smile


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 04 January 2013 at 10:36pm
Whew! I'm so glad the two of you finally got that sorted out!

Unfortunately forum_posts.asp?TID=2055&PID=111881#111881 - Nazarene's account - or a spell-checked variation of it - still seems way more plausible, to anyone not already instilled with an unquestioning, literal acceptance of scripture.


Posted By: TG12345
Date Posted: 05 January 2013 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by nospam001

Whew! I'm so glad the two of you finally got that sorted out!

Unfortunately forum_posts.asp?TID=2055&PID=111881#111881 - Nazarene's account - or a spell-checked variation of it - still seems way more plausible, to anyone not already instilled with an unquestioning, literal acceptance of scripture.

Got what sorted out?

I believe the flood was global and that it drowned all of humanity except the people on Noah's Ark. Islamispeace says it could have been either way but seems to more believe it was regional, and that it drowned only his people.

I have presented the interpretations of 3 tafsir scholars and a fatwa that claims all of humanity was drowned, as well as an article from islamQA which states that mankind was on the Ark with Noah. The fatwa as well as at least one of the scholars argue also explicitly that the whole world was flooded. The sources I cited that don't say this explicitly allude to it and they all claim mankind was on the Ark with Noah and that everyone else drowned.

Islamispeace presented his arguments defending his belief that only a region of the world was flooded and only a certain group of people were affected, without alluding to any fatwas or tafsirs or hadiths to back up his statement.

Do you believe God caused a great flood that overwhelmed the entire world and that He drowned all disbelievers except Noah and those of his people who were believers, or do you believe He caused a regional flood that drowned all of Noah's people who were disbelievers and spared Noah and his followers but did not affect humanity otherwise?


Posted By: nospam001
Date Posted: 06 January 2013 at 1:59am
Originally posted by TG12345

Do you believe God caused a great flood that overwhelmed the entire world and that He drowned all disbelievers except Noah and those of his people who were believers, or do you believe He caused a regional flood that drowned all of Noah's people who were disbelievers and spared Noah and his followers but did not affect humanity otherwise?

No.



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