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Aadam and Prophets before ’Eesa (Jesus)

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=198
Printed Date: 17 September 2014 at 6:40am


Topic: Aadam and Prophets before ’Eesa (Jesus)
Posted By: MOCKBA
Subject: Aadam and Prophets before ’Eesa (Jesus)
Date Posted: 21 March 2005 at 10:31pm

Have been curious lately on Christians' view of Aadam, Noah and Prophets that have appeared before 'Eesa, peace be upon them all. What is their status in the Bible (the most common one)? Are they Prophets? Saints?   

According to someone's (who considers himself an Orthodox Christian) very raw explanation, the human being did not not completely evolve until the appearance of Jesus. And therefore history starts from his advent. This seemed to me a hybrid view between Darwinism and some branch of Christianity. 

The Islaamic position to me is clear, alhamdulillah.

Thought of taking a short cut and ask someone who has done research and is more informed on the subject from the Christian perspective.  

MOCKBA




Replies:
Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 21 March 2005 at 11:15pm
Prophets were similar to Islam except that as Israel developed politically
the terms changed. Prophet means god reveals the truth. King Soloman
was a prophet, but he is called King. There were judges too.

Saints are different. Developed by the catholic churches, they are role
models. One does not pray to saints - we pray with them One recalls
who that saint had worldly tribulations and how they reacted.

There is much overlap, but prophethood is bestowed by God. Sainthood
is primarily an earned title,


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 9:32am

Very interesting topic, indeed. Can you, DavidC, elaborate on the apostleship also. What is this kind and where does it fit in the ranking of prophethood and saints etc as the NT sometimes call the diciples of Jesus as apostles so much so that "saint" paul is also sometime seems to claim to be the apostle in some of his letters.



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 1:13pm
The apostles were the companions of Jesus. They were not the smartest
or the best people - just simple people with faith. And not even perfect
faith at that.

There is no ranking of saints. See http://www.catholic.org/saints/
faq.php#idol
- Saints

Paul is a unique case. He persecuted and condemned Christians under his
his original name Saul. Jesus (years after the crucifixion) appeared to Saul
andn Saul changed his name to Saul and became the most powerful and
effective Christian evangelist. A miraculous change by any standard!

DavidC


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 2:36pm
[QUOTE=DavidC] And not even perfect faith at that.

I am bit surprised about your comments. I thought these (12 apostles) were specially chosen people by no one else other than all by Jesus himself. That too, once he was right here on this earth where every one else (meaning their peers) were witness to this status given to them. Of course, also, they spent maximum time with Jesus learning all that can be taught by limited time Jesus had with them than anyone else. On the other hand, Paul got more faith instantly ("mircalous by any standard" you said) than anyone else, in the one (Jesus) to whom he never ever met in his whole life. Isn't it strange?


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 5:47pm
AhmadJoyia, you are viewing things through Muslim spectacles. Jesus did
not choose the apostles - they chose him. Any and all were accepted
regardless of faults or doubts.   Jesus sought out the unlikely, the
downtrodden and the victimized. Jesus taught the keys to heaven were
were to be given to the poor, victimized and orphaned.

Many Christians, including Paul, met Jesus long after Jesus died on earth.
Jesus continues to change souls to this day - no books, no logic involved.

DavidC


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 7:05pm
Hmmm has anyone decided to answer Mockba's second
paragraph on evolution. I highly doubt the human being
evolved after Jesus seeing how the Homon Sapien which is us
came from the Homo Erectus some 100,000 years ago. So
humans inclduing and after Jesus' time were already evolved
creatures so I doubt the Christian interpretation of human
evolution based on what you mentioned in correct.


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 7:09pm

Your replies seem to be more in generality to my specifics as I can't assume you don't know the few early chapters of the NT as who called on whom to form master-deciple relationship during Prophet Jesus's ministry. or probably, I should not delve more into this aspect. Ok, let us talk about your faith in one God and how you state as "Jesus continues to change souls to this day - no books, no logic involved"? Do you intend to say people still meet Jesus in their visions, the same way as Paul saw him on his trip to damascus? By the way, I am not very sure when did Jesus say that he would be coming to people in this way after he has gone to heavens?



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 7:09pm
By the Way how humans have calculated time and history used
the Christian Calendar such as B.C (before Christ) and A.D
(after Death) as far as human history is concerned the
calculation of human history based on the advent of Jesus is
incorrect timetable because for example to say the Homo
Sapien came approx 100,000 B.C is not scientifically correct
because B.C implies at least some type of civilization usually
B.C refers to before the time of Christ but was also allocated to
some type of civilization/or person. But this is all my
understanding and from the professors of physics and biology
in which I studied under. this is why we use the term B.C.E
(Before Common Era) and C.E (Common Era)


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 7:32pm

Dear Israfil,

If I am not offending my christian brothers, I think, academicians have serious objections on the very advent and existance of Christ in this real world. According to them, there was no such person in entire human history with such traits as are usually ascribed to him by NT. So they were cautioned not to mix up the scientific arguments based on hypothetical (according to them) time frame of BC, so they started using B.C.E.



Posted By: -ArabianKnight-
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 7:38pm

Originally posted by Israfil

By the Way how humans have calculated time and history used
the Christian Calendar such as B.C (before Christ) and A.D
(after Death) as far as human history is concerned the
calculation of human history based on the advent of Jesus is
incorrect timetable because for example to say the Homo
Sapien came approx 100,000 B.C is not scientifically correct
because B.C implies at least some type of civilization usually
B.C refers to before the time of Christ but was also allocated to
some type of civilization/or person. But this is all my
understanding and from the professors of physics and biology
in which I studied under. this is why we use the term B.C.E
(Before Common Era) and C.E (Common Era)


Actually Israfil, AD is Annos Domini, In the Year of the Lord, or somtimes in latin also appears as Anno Domini Nostri Jesu Christi, In the year of our Lord Jesus Christ.. etc..

But I just assumed  when He said Evolution as implying Spiritual evolution... you know?.. It does make sense.. people became more spirtually evolved when the Messiah (Jesus The Christ, Son of Mary) came...

But MOCKBA mentioning darwin in the same sentence - kind of throws that all off... hmm... very perplexing.. no?



-------------
THere Is no god, BUT GOD
and Adam was his First Messenger
_____________________________


Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 22 March 2005 at 8:11pm

The thread has developed into some chicanes. Appreciate all the inputs:

I was more interested in the importance attributed to Aadam, Noah, Solomon (peace be upon them all) by Christians. Are they disregarded as messengers of God? Are they religious... significant? Or are they mere members of those early civilizations that have not evolved completely both physically and spiritually as they lived before the advent of Jesus? Where was God, early then (from Christian perspective)?

MOCKBA

 



Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 23 March 2005 at 5:24am
AhmadJoyia and Israfil - the human life of Jesus is well documented by
Jews, Romans, etc. As for Darwin, I doon't quite get the reference but
everything made by God changes. God even changed his own mind when
confronted by Muhummud about the times of salat.

As to Adam, Solomon, etc. they are of extreme importance but in
Christianity. Please remember the God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit is a
symbolic way of describing a single all powerful God.

In any event, direct questions and doubts are most welcome and are not
rude. Strict intellectual challenging of Christian dogma is a necessary
form of prayer.

DavidC (hopefully getting back on track)


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 23 March 2005 at 7:09am

Oh, I am sorry, my fault that I diverted from the main topic. So coming to the topic, I don't know if all the christian have the same perspective about the prophets before Jesus, but as I think the way the Bible (of course the OT) describe them all and how Bible (NT) then try to harmonize their description with the later development of christian theology, can be seen through famous Christian dogma. As I shall try to put it in words, plz do excuse me if I am wrong or mistaken in it.

 Since all before Jesus sinned, everyone including Moses, Noah, etc, they all fall short of glory of God to remove the burdon of original sin from the mankind. Finally, God himself has to come down to earth to wash the burdon of original sin for the salvation of the mankind forever thereafter. Probably, it is in this perspective that your friend, Bro MOCKBA, is analogically correlating the final evolutionary state of humans. I would expect more thoughts on this from all directions. Cheers!



Posted By: MOCKBA
Date Posted: 23 March 2005 at 7:22pm

Originally posted by DavidC

God even changed his own mind when
confronted by Muhummud about the times of salat.

Allow me to make important correction. The times and frequencies of salaat changed (and even that only within the context of miraj, the night journey, and not after they have been established) but i would not encourage going as far as attributing any changes to "God's mind".

It was not a confrontation, wet-market bargain sort, or a business negotiation kind in search of some consensus between the parties... it did not take the form of questioning Allaah and doubting His decision, as it did in the case of Iblis.  The unimaginable perfection of Allaah, who is al-Mutakkabbir - The Supreme in Greatness, is in no need of His creation advising Him on affairs... or correcting Him. For there is not a neutron of thought of which He is not aware of, be it in the future or in the past or in-between. It was, and is part of Allaah's plan, from which some deduce the humbleness of Muhammad (peace be upon him) others the Mercy and many other attributes of Allaah, the Most Merciful.   

Originally posted by DavidC

As to Adam, Solomon, etc. they are of extreme importance but in
Christianity.

I read it as they are NOT of importance. And therefore Christianity is not in complete disagreement with what today's science attempts to suggest: that life BC was mainly of neanderthal nature... both   spiritually and perhaps more earlier - physically. Makes one ponder over what was Aadam (peace be upon him) like... from Christian perspective. An incomplete human being? 

There are no intended traps, after all this is an Interfaith Dialogue. The question was as direct as I could think of at the moment. Perhaps it can develop into some specifics as there are more inputs, insha Allaah.   

MOCKBA



Posted By: zulkharnain
Date Posted: 24 March 2005 at 2:00am

Jesus the son of Virgin Mary is a prophet of God

He preached the oneness of God very few people originally believed him. The jews in all became his enemies and they tried to kill him. He was raised to the heaven alive and shall appear once again alive befor the day of judgement. After this those who called them christians believed him to be God. But he shall die one day. God does not die, he was neither crated, born or shall die. He is not a human being. Jesus was born without a father, just like Adam without any parent!

Read Quran for details.

 



-------------
May Allah bless u


Posted By: DavidC
Date Posted: 24 March 2005 at 4:43am
Thank you for your kind correction. If I can help Muslims understand
your prophet Jesus a little better I will be happy, and I welcome the
opportunity to learn more about Islam and understand Christianity better.

Please do not let remain ignorant under guise of avoiding disagreement
or possible offense. Youier corrections of my misunderstandings are of
utmost importance!

Muslims seem to avoid the multiple layers of meaning in theQuran out of
humility. The Bible also has many layers of symbolic meaning, and well
meaning Muslims also avoid those. This is wrong, because Christian
humility assumes we will be wrong in our interpretations.

An old sufii saying - "Seek the water and not the pitcher".

I am ramblimg - and eagery await the next question.

DavidC


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 24 March 2005 at 6:27pm
Where doesArabian Knight and David C thinking of me denying the time frame of Jesus? David for your infor bro I never questioned the time frame of Jesus I merely stated that scientist when explaining the history of a particular object/entity rather using the Christian concept of calculating time i.e  B.C and A.D they use another terminology not religiously based such as B.C.E. and C.E...By the way brother Arabian Knight thanks for the explanation though I already knew their latin roots I appreciate clarification...


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 24 March 2005 at 6:29pm
Hmm "our prophet Jesus?" doesn't sound like the "bridging the gap" David C to me but on the other hand to subscribe to the "Muslim Jesus" would denounce the Christian concept of Jesus how interesting....


Posted By: yesha`
Date Posted: 26 March 2005 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by MOCKBA

Have been curious lately on Christians' view of Aadam, Noah and Prophets that have appeared before 'Eesa, peace be upon them all. What is their status in the Bible (the most common one)? Are they Prophets? Saints?   

According to someone's (who considers himself an Orthodox Christian) very raw explanation, the human being did not not completely evolve until the appearance of Jesus. And therefore history starts from his advent. This seemed to me a hybrid view between Darwinism and some branch of Christianity. 

The Islaamic position to me is clear, alhamdulillah.

Thought of taking a short cut and ask someone who has done research and is more informed on the subject from the Christian perspective.  

MOCKBA



The prophets are normal human beings, sons of Adam, who have been called by God to speak his message.  However, they are not infallable, as some muslims believe their prophets are.  They have all sinned, and hence require God's mercy to be reconciled to God that same as every one else, aside from Jesus.

To learn more about them check out these articals under prophecy.

http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?action=Alpha&am p;letter=P

Saints are simply believers.  That is all Christians are saints. 

http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T7564

As for this evolution, I can only guess he's referring to the idea that in Christ Jesus, Christians are a new creation, a new mankind, not from Adam, but from Jesus through the Holy Spirit.  This new spiritual being will be given a new body in the new creation.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 March 2005 at 6:52pm

Yesha wrote:

"As for this evolution, I can only guess he's referring to the idea that in Christ Jesus, Christians are a new creation, a new mankind, not from Adam, but from Jesus through the Holy Spirit.  This new spiritual being will be given a new body in the new creation."

Seeing how Judaism is 1,000 years before the creation of Christianity what about the Jews are they not apart of creation if so are they considered the new creation? Though this is quite laughable I wish for you to expand on your assertion.



Posted By: yesha`
Date Posted: 27 March 2005 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by Israfil

Seeing how Judaism is 1,000 years before the creation of Christianity what about the Jews are they not apart of creation if so are they considered the new creation? Though this is quite laughable I wish for you to expand on your assertion.



http://www.studylight.org/enc/isb/view.cgi?number=T5752


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 28 March 2005 at 5:14pm
I said expand on your assertion not give me websites, almost every website is bias so showing me a website is no better than stating your own opinion...So again your explanation.


Posted By: yesha`
Date Posted: 28 March 2005 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Israfil

I said expand on your assertion not give me websites, almost every website is bias so showing me a website is no better than stating your own opinion...So again your explanation.


The site I posesed is simply an artical from the 1927 ISBE (international standard bible encyclopedia), though somewhat dated, it should sufficiently explain the concept.

Because Christians have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, they are new creations. Those in Christ are born of the Spirit (Christ), not just the flesh (Adam).   Thus Jesus is a new Adam.  Which is perhaps what the person meant by evolved.

John 3:3 niv
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."





Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 29 March 2005 at 6:16am

[Quote]
Because Christians have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, they are new creations. Those in Christ are born of the Spirit (Christ), not just the flesh (Adam).   Thus Jesus is a new Adam.  Which is perhaps what the person meant by evolved.

John 3:3 niv
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." [Un-QUOTE]

Again, this reply still doesn't seem to answer about the state of nations prior to Christianity, like Jews etc. And besides, I think we all are born of spirit of God and flesh of adam, isn't it?; atleast in some metaphorical sense. What's the point, except that Christians have renamed the God based on evolutionarily developed theology? Thirdly, I really don't see any logical connection between the quote from John 3:3 niv and the concept of human evolution after Jesus. Don't tell me that we need to take this quote in a literal sense?



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 29 March 2005 at 10:36pm

Originally posted by yesha`

Because Christians have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, they are new creations. Those in Christ are born of the Spirit (Christ), not just the flesh (Adam).   Thus Jesus is a new Adam.  Which is perhaps what the person meant by evolved.

I don't think that would be correct afterall there were other people just like Jesus in creation  and some were with Jesus while teaching. I would say its more to do with a new awareness and a new self image, not a new creation of being per se.

I think I am with Ahmad with the statement of: "I think we all are born of spirit of God and flesh of adam, isn't it?; atleast in some metaphorical sense"

John 3:3 niv
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

I don't take that as physically born. Afterall Jesus was alive when he came to a new awareness otherwise he wouldn't have been able to teach his teachings



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~



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