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Question For Open ( Debate For Christian

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Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19481
Printed Date: 23 November 2014 at 2:23pm


Topic: Question For Open ( Debate For Christian
Posted By: IssaEl999
Subject: Question For Open ( Debate For Christian
Date Posted: 24 March 2011 at 1:46pm
Ques ; The Immaculate Conception Of Mary That Christians ( Preach True ) ?
Ques ; How Does The Self Apointed  Saul , Shaool , Paul Justify Abolishing The Law ?


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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .



Replies:
Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 28 March 2011 at 9:59am
Originally posted by IssaEl999

Ques; The Immaculate Conception Of Mary That Christians Preach True?
Ques; How Does The Self Apointed Saul, Shaool, Paul Justify Abolishing The Law?


Yes it is true that Christianity trusts in a virgin birth. As to whether it is true or not that is a matter of faith as I cannot see how it can be proved one way or another so it is perhaps a pointless question. This is no different is it from saying Mohammed was spoken to by an angel, is it true - I cannot see how it can be proved one way or another.

With regard to Paul it seems to me that you need to tell us where Paul justified abolishing as you say the law?


Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 29 March 2011 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by IssaEl999

Ques; The Immaculate Conception Of Mary That Christians Preach True?
Ques; How Does The Self Apointed Saul, Shaool, Paul Justify Abolishing The Law?


Yes it is true that Christianity trusts in a virgin birth. As to whether it is true or not that is a matter of faith as I cannot see how it can be proved one way or another so it is perhaps a pointless question. This is no different is it from saying Mohammed was spoken to by an angel, is it true - I cannot see how it can be proved one way or another.

With regard to Paul it seems to me that you need to tell us where Paul justified abolishing as you say the law?
 
Maybe you should see if you can answer the question First And Not Tell Me What I Should Do Ok .


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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 8:31am


Paul did & didn't do lot of things, people are still asking it is just not the IC members!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/the-bible-telling-lies-to_b_840301.html -



Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 8:51am
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by IssaEl999

Ques; The Immaculate Conception Of Mary That Christians Preach True?
Ques; How Does The Self Apointed Saul, Shaool, Paul Justify Abolishing The Law?


Yes it is true that Christianity trusts in a virgin birth. As to whether it is true or not that is a matter of faith as I cannot see how it can be proved one way or another so it is perhaps a pointless question. This is no different is it from saying Mohammed was spoken to by an angel, is it true - I cannot see how it can be proved one way or another.

With regard to Paul it seems to me that you need to tell us where Paul justified abolishing as you say the law?


Is it not interesting that Bart Ehrman is quoted here, beloved it seems of Muslim because he says what they want to hear. Do you not know any other Biblical scholars (FF Bruce, Metzger, Barclay etc) and perhaps you would care to hear what Ehrman says about oral transmission since again Muslims put some much store by it, he said oral transmission is not about about exactness, that is a product of written cultures, but oral recitations are about fitting the story, the same story, but bending it this way and that way to fit circumstance.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 1:59pm
I agree with Bunter about the virgin birth.  That is simply a matter of faith, as it is with Muslims.  But the second topic is definitely interesting.  Christians make all sorts of arguments to try to exonerate Paul, but as with many of their arguments, there are many inconsistencies which they try very hard to ignore.  

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

I agree with Bunter about the virgin birth.  That is simply a matter of faith, as it is with Muslims.  But the second topic is definitely interesting.  Christians make all sorts of arguments to try to exonerate Paul, but as with many of their arguments, there are many inconsistencies which they try very hard to ignore.  
 
 
 
Care Share What You Know About Saul , Shaool , Paul , Teaching ?


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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 8:23am
Modern enlightened Christians don't believe virgin birth to be a biological fact. Jesus, the human being, had a biological father too. Immaculate conception can have a symbolic meaning.

Modern enlightened Muslims don't believe in the physical night journey of Muhammad. This too has a symbolic meaning.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 9:06am
Originally posted by IessEI999

Care Share What You Know About Saul, Shaool, Paul, Teaching?


Where can we start? How about this teaching that he gave in Romans Romans 1:16-17 (NIV)

16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”      


Posted By: chall0121
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:09pm
It is my understanding that the virgin birth is a Scriptural truth to be accepted by faith.  There isn't any proof.  The point is that Jesus is both man and God.  The concept is that God "fused" His own being with full humanity in the womb of Mary.  Thus Jesus is a man, who is also God by virtue of union with the Father. 
 
Paul expressed that the Law was just and holy.  It is an expression of God's own holiness.  Yet the Law was never intended to be obeyed to bring the necessary righteousness for salvation.  Only ABSOLUTE perfection can earn Heaven.  That means that if one commits a single sin... that person is disqualified from going to Heaven forever.  That is how serious sin is.  Jesus, who is believed to be both man and God, is believed to be absolutely perfect.  Through the cross, Jesus Christ willingly died in the believer's place, taking the wrath of God upon Himself, fulfilling God's judgment against sin.  Just as Jesus took our sinfulness upon Himself (every last sin that has been committed and will be committed), Jesus imputes His own absolute righteousness upon the believer.  The believer is then seen by God clothed in Christ's righteousness, absolute perfection, being hidden from judgment. 
 
So Paul didn't necessarily abolish the Law.  Paul simply expressed the Law's ultimate purpose in revealing God's holiness, the requirement for Heaven, and how it relates to Christ's righteousness as imputed to the believer. 
 
At least... that's my understanding of it.  lol 


Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by chall0121

It is my understanding that the virgin birth is a Scriptural truth to be accepted by faith.  There isn't any proof.  The point is that Jesus is both man and God.  The concept is that God "fused" His own being with full humanity in the womb of Mary.  Thus Jesus is a man, who is also God by virtue of union with the Father. 
 
Paul expressed that the Law was just and holy.  It is an expression of God's own holiness.  Yet the Law was never intended to be obeyed to bring the necessary righteousness for salvation.  Only ABSOLUTE perfection can earn Heaven.  That means that if one commits a single sin... that person is disqualified from going to Heaven forever.  That is how serious sin is.  Jesus, who is believed to be both man and God, is believed to be absolutely perfect.  Through the cross, Jesus Christ willingly died in the believer's place, taking the wrath of God upon Himself, fulfilling God's judgment against sin.  Just as Jesus took our sinfulness upon Himself (every last sin that has been committed and will be committed), Jesus imputes His own absolute righteousness upon the believer.  The believer is then seen by God clothed in Christ's righteousness, absolute perfection, being hidden from judgment. 
 
So Paul didn't necessarily abolish the Law.  Paul simply expressed the Law's ultimate purpose in revealing God's holiness, the requirement for Heaven, and how it relates to Christ's righteousness as imputed to the believer. 
 
At least... that's my understanding of it.  lol 
 
 
Thankyou For Your Answer ( chall )
 
If Saul , Shaool , Paul was going to teach the Gentiles then he should have been converting them to the teaching and the laws of the person whom he claimed to be receiving all of these visions from . For Example ;
 
Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Said ; Keep the Sabbath ( Mark 2 ; 27 ) circumcise male children on the 8th day ( Luke 2 ; 21 ) .
Saul , Shaool , Paul ; Circumcision is not necessary ( Romans 2 ; 26 ) all you need is '' circumcison of the heart '' ( Romans 2 ; 29 ) that is going against what Jesus Christ said in John 7 ; 22 - 23 . The word ANTI meaning , '' to go against '' so Anti - Christ means to go against anything that Jesus Christ taught .
Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Said ; Unless you are baptized you shall not see the kingdom of God ( John 3 ; 3 -5 ) .
Saul , Shaool , Paul ; You are saved by accepting Jesus ; he does not mention Baptism ( Roman 10 ; 9 - 10 ) .
The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; In 2Chronicles 7 ; 12 - 16 , it says that , the Lord dwells in chosen temples , a law through Mosheh , Musa , Moses ,
Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; in Acts 7 ; 48 , '' The Most High does not dwell in temples , '' God dwells in light in 1Timothy 6 ; 16 says Saul , Shaool , Paul
Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; Anger is approved by him in Ephesians 4 ; 26 , as well as , in Proverbs 22 ;24 .
The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; It is law that every man - child be circumcised in Genesis 17 ; 10 ,
 Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; You will gain nothing if you are circumcised in Galatians 5 ; 2 .
The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy in Exodus 20 ; 8 ,
 Saul , Shaool , Paul says ;Don't judge a man who does not keep the Sabbath in Romans 14 ; 5 And Colossians 2 ; 16 ,
 The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; Do not eat pork in Leviticus 11 ; 7 , And the swine , though he divide the hoof . and be cloven footed , yet he cheweth not the cud ; he is unclean to you , '' Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; You can eat anything in Roman 14 ; 2 , '' For one believeth that he may eat all things ; another , who is weak , eateth herbs ,
 
Saul , Shaool , Paul even went against the Baptism 1Corinthians 1; 14 , 17 , And I Quote ; I thank God ( Theos , Elohyeem ) that I baptized none of you , but Crispus and Gaius ( 17 ) For Christ sent me not to baptize , but to preach the gospel ; not wisdom of words , lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect , '' which Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus , himself was given by Yowkhanan Yahya , John ( Baptist ) . Make not that Yowkhanan Yahya , John ( Zebedee ) still spoke of Baptism after Saul , Shaool , Paul's statement because his books came later , Yet , still in John 1 ; 26 , it says '' John answered them , saying , I Baptize with water ; but there standeth one among you , whom ye know not .
 
Mark 1; 9 , And I Quote ' And it came to pass in those days , that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was Baptized of John in Jordan .
 
John 1 ; 33 , And I Quote ; And I knew him not ; but he that sent me To Baptize with water , the same said unto me , Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining on him , the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost .
 
 John 4 ; 1 , And I Quote When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and Baptized more Disciples that John .
 
And Saul , Shaool , Paul is going against Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus and makes a false statement by saying , '' For Christ Sent Me Not To Baptize .... '' Christ DID NOT SENT PAUL ... CHRIST NEVER KNEW PAUL ,.. This Is A Historical And Undisputable Fact . And when And Saul , Shaool , Paul , claimed in Acts 28 ; 28 that '' The salvation of God ( Theos , Elohyeem ) is sent unto the Gentiles and they will hear it '' . This is not True ,  Saul , Shaool , Paul is the Apostle of the Gentiles Only ,
 
 
More In Next Verse .
 


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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 6:51pm
Chall,
welcome to the forum. I have several issues with what you wrote, but as always I take one at a time.
You wrote: " The point is that Jesus is both man and God. "
Where did that come from and how is that different from similar claims by other religions that you probably do not accept, the Hindu concept in particular where God is told to have come down in various forms, both as man and animal. Also it does raise another valid question. Why during the period covering the OT prophets God is never mentioned to have come down in form of one of His own creation? Nowhere in the OT I find where awaited Massiah was told to be God himself.
So, those are some valid questions besides the fact that except in Pagan believes God does not come in form of One of His Creations. That's what makes Him God, Unique, None like Him, if only we can grasp the differance between what is created vs Who is the Creator, we can refrain from saying such BS. as Jesus is both man and God, or God came as an elephant like a Hindu believes.
Hasan
 
BS=Blasphemy


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 01 April 2011 at 7:32am
Originally posted by honeto

Chall,
welcome to the forum. I have several issues with what you wrote, but as always I take one at a time.
You wrote: " The point is that Jesus is both man and God. "
Where did that come from and how is that different from similar claims by other religions that you probably do not accept, the Hindu concept in particular where God is told to have come down in various forms, both as man and animal. Also it does raise another valid question. Why during the period covering the OT prophets God is never mentioned to have come down in form of one of His own creation? Nowhere in the OT I find where awaited Massiah was told to be God himself.
So, those are some valid questions besides the fact that except in Pagan believes God does not come in form of One of His Creations. That's what makes Him God, Unique, None like Him, if only we can grasp the differance between what is created vs Who is the Creator, we can refrain from saying such BS. as Jesus is both man and God, or God came as an elephant like a Hindu believes.
Hasan
 
BS=Blasphemy
 
 
As Salaamu Alaykum  ... I Agree With The Above , These People Can't Shake The Trinity . No Matter How Many Time , Your Or I Try To It Plan It .
 
 
There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These
 
Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son .
 
This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .
 
Now If They Can't See This ( Their Lost )


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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 01 April 2011 at 7:38am
Originally posted by honeto

You wrote: " The point is that Jesus is both man and God." Where did that come from and how is that different from similar claims by other religions that you probably do not accept, the Hindu concept in particular where God is told to have come down in various forms, both as man and animal. Also it does raise another valid question. Why during the period covering the OT prophets God is never mentioned to have come down in form of one of His own creation? Nowhere in the OT I find where awaited Massiah was told to be God himself.

This is a fair but difficult question and no Christian will say other that God is one. But in the NT we frequently read that Jesus claims to be one with God. For example we read in John 10:28-32 NIV "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Thus Jesus here claims to be God and who but God can redeem us?

Now a common objection to the idea that God is one in three and three in one is that it cannot be understood and of course I agree with that but at the same time I do not make my own mind the measure of all things and I accept in faith the triune God.

To see what I mean here about setting limits with our puny minds I might ask you what does it mean if God is one, without equals etc. Does it mean he sits in a chair somewhere and I can identify him as one person or is he everywhere or what? If he is one person in the sense that we might understand it how can he listen to a billion prayers and in the case of Islam listen to a billion people all saying the same prayers and saying it several time over. If God is everywhere its then hard to see he is one?


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 01 April 2011 at 7:42am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Modern enlightened Christians don't believe virgin birth to be a biological fact. Jesus, the human being, had a biological father too. Immaculate conception can have a symbolic meaning.Modern enlightened Muslims don't believe in the physical night journey of Muhammad. This too has a symbolic meaning.

Perhaps you will tell us by what means we can look through scripture and know that one thing is symbolic and another is not?


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 01 April 2011 at 8:03am
Originally posted by IssaEl999

Thankyou For Your Answer (chall. If , Paul was going to teach the Gentiles then he should have been converting them to the teaching and the laws of the person whom he claimed to be receiving all of these visions from. For Example;Keep the Sabbath (Mark 2;27) circumcise male children on the 8th day Luke 2;21)...

Issa, I think its time you actually added something to the discussion, so far all you have done is copy what can be found in other placers. In this particular post it comes from http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/general-religious-discussions/38519-pauls-christianity-vs-jesus-christianity-m-z-york.html and it says there that it is the work of someone called M. Z. York whose posting you can find all over the place and his work is known as Nuwaubianism.

If you want more if this rubbish go and read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuwaubianism


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 01 April 2011 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by IssaEl999

Care Share What You Know About Saul , Shaool , Paul , Teaching ?


Well, he claimed that Jesus was God.  He also felt that the Gentiles were not required to be circumcised.  He also pretty much influenced the abolition of the Laws of the Torah. 

Besides that, the accounts of his "encounter" in Damascus are inconsistent and contradictory. 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 01 April 2011 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by IssaEl999

Care Share What You Know About Saul , Shaool , Paul , Teaching ?

Well, he claimed that Jesus was God.  He also felt that the Gentiles were not required to be circumcised.  He also pretty much influenced the abolition of the Laws of the Torah. 

Besides that, the accounts of his "encounter" in Damascus are inconsistent and contradictory. 
 
Shukran Jaziylan


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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 01 April 2011 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by chall0121

It is my understanding that the virgin birth is a Scriptural truth to be accepted by faith.  There isn't any proof.  The point is that Jesus is both man and God.  The concept is that God "fused" His own being with full humanity in the womb of Mary.  Thus Jesus is a man, who is also God by virtue of union with the Father. 
 
Paul expressed that the Law was just and holy.  It is an expression of God's own holiness.  Yet the Law was never intended to be obeyed to bring the necessary righteousness for salvation.  Only ABSOLUTE perfection can earn Heaven.  That means that if one commits a single sin... that person is disqualified from going to Heaven forever.  That is how serious sin is.  Jesus, who is believed to be both man and God, is believed to be absolutely perfect.  Through the cross, Jesus Christ willingly died in the believer's place, taking the wrath of God upon Himself, fulfilling God's judgment against sin.  Just as Jesus took our sinfulness upon Himself (every last sin that has been committed and will be committed), Jesus imputes His own absolute righteousness upon the believer.  The believer is then seen by God clothed in Christ's righteousness, absolute perfection, being hidden from judgment. 
 
So Paul didn't necessarily abolish the Law.  Paul simply expressed the Law's ultimate purpose in revealing God's holiness, the requirement for Heaven, and how it relates to Christ's righteousness as imputed to the believer. 
 
At least... that's my understanding of it.  lol 
 
 
The Christians have Concocted in hopes of Brainwashing people into thinking that '' God '' ( as they call hin '' Put  a child into Mary's Womb . This is a '' Hoax '' . No Women in History , nor in this day and time , has ever conceived a Child without the Aid of a Man . It has never been the will of the '' Almighty '' for Women to Reproduce By Herself . If you know this to be Untrue , then you have to Show Me In The Scriptures where woman have Conceived Children Without A Man and only by the will of the '' Almighty '' .
 
To Believe in the Immaculate Conception is to Believe that Yahuwa  merely placed a see in Mary's Body , by saying '' Kun , Faya Kuwn '' Exist And It Existed ''  If this was the case , wouldn't it have been easier to just create a full grown Man , Bashar < Arabic > . It would have sped up the events concerning the The Prophet / Messiah Jesus , life and it would have been easier for both Joesph and Mary . Why didn't Yahuwa do this ? He did it with The Prophet Adam
. In addition , wouldn't that have been the most Simple , Most ideal formula for all the Prophets of Yahuwa  to be born . This would elminate having to Groom Women to give Birth to people such as The Prophets . Couldn't He have just made the Trees , Birds , Flowers , already Full Grown without starting as a Seed and going through the Developing Stage . We Definitely Wouldn't Have To Wait To Eat . Yahuwa could have made it this way , but He didn't . Yahuwa created Man , Bashar < Arabic > from the Spark , '' Kun , Faya Kuwn '' . This same Spark gave life to the First Man , The Prophet Adam as well as The Prophets / Messiah Jesus , however , The Prophet Adam was created '' From The Dust Of The Ground ''  Genesis 2 ; 7 , And I Quote ; And The Lord God  Formed Man  Of The Dust  Of The Ground And Breathed  Into His Nostrils  The Breath Of Life ;  And Man  Became A Living Soul .
 
Let me show you the Ridiculousness of the '' Immaculate Conception'' . For the Creator to have Produced A Child in the Womb of Mary without a Sperm would mean that Mary's entire Composition was Changed so that She would also have a '' Y'' Chromosome in order to Produce A Male Child by Herself , without the Aid of a Man . Women don't possees this '' Y'' Chromosome , it is the Male Chromosome , Let me explain . Each individual Sperm of a Male carries either a '' X '' or a '' Y''  Chromosome  and the Female Egg just carries an '' X
Chromosome  . In order for a Male to be Conceived , a Sperm carrying the '' Y''  Chromosome  must Meet the Female  Egg  carrying the '' X Chromosome .  This Union cause the Combination '' XY''  which develops into a Male Child . In Mary's case . She being a Female only possessed Two '' X '' Chromosomes .
 
There is no way possible She could have received a '' Y''  Chromosome  without the help of a mortal Sperm .  Now , I Ask You Christians Where Did She Get The '' Y '' Chromosome From ? If You Say Your '' God '' Has Physical Attributes Of A Human Being . If You Believe '' God '' To Be Supreme Then He Wouldn't Have Human Attributes .
 
This is the beauty of  Yahuwa . He created Male and Female in stages and this reproductive process has been His since the first Man and Woman The Prophet Adam and his help mate Eve
. The entire human race has reproduced the same way for Thousand of years . This is the will of The Almighty Creator .


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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 01 April 2011 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by IssaEl999

Care Share What You Know About <font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Saul , Shaool , Paul , Teaching ?
Well, he claimed that Jesus was God.  He also felt that the Gentiles were not required to be circumcised.  He also pretty much influenced the abolition of the Laws of the Torah. 
Besides that, the accounts of his "encounter" in Damascus are inconsistent and contradictory. 


Let us be clear here, these are YOUR claims and since you are unable to give any Bible or other citations to support them they are just so much wind.


Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 02 April 2011 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by IssaEl999

Care Share What You Know About Saul , Shaool , Paul , Teaching ?

Well, he claimed that Jesus was God.  He also felt that the Gentiles were not required to be circumcised.  He also pretty much influenced the abolition of the Laws of the Torah. 

Besides that, the accounts of his "encounter" in Damascus are inconsistent and contradictory. 
 
http://www.bibleontheweb.com/Bible.asp - Click here: Bible on the Web Search
The Deceiver Paul Acclaimed Vision Is The Only Evidence The Deceiver Paul Could Produce For His Bid For The Leadership Of The New Church The Deceiver Would Raise . No Wonder The Jews Were Highly Skeptical About The Whole Claim And Would Not Listen To Him . Let's Take A Look In The Bible Where The Deceiver Paul CONTRADICTS HIMSELF THREE TIMES ,

This Is The Behavior Of A LIAR , A LIAR Has To Repeat His LIE Two Or More Times With Each Verse Differing From The Next Until He Ultimately Prove Himself A LIAR . He Eventually Reveals The Truth He Was Trying To Hide All Along .

Contradiction One ;
Acts 9 ; 4 - 7 , And I Quote ; 4 And he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5 And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting; 6 but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do." 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.


In The Above Quote The Deceiver Paul , First Says The HE Alone Fell To The Ground ( Earth ) And Then He Proceeds To Say That The Men Who Journeyed With Him Stood Speechless , Hearing A Voice , BUT Seeing No Man , We See In Acts 22 ; 7 - 9 That Paul The Deceiver Was About To Be Killed By The People Of The City Of Caesarea For Preaching To The Jews Amongst The GENTILES That They Should Forsake Moses And Not Circumcise Their Children Or Follow Their Customs .

The Deceiver Paul Was Saved By The Soldiers And Centurions Who Took Him To The Castle Unto The Chief Priest And There The Deceiver Paul Says

Contradiction Two ;
Acts 22; 7 - 9 , And I Quote ; 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul arose from the ground; and when his eyes were opened, he could see nothing; so they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Now , In This Quote The Deceiver Paul Say HE Alone Fell To The Ground . He Proceeds To Say That The MEN Who Were With Him SAW The Light , But HEARD Not The Voice Of Him Who Spoke . But He Had Just Said In Acts 9 ; 4 - 7 , '' Those Who Journeyed With Him , Heard A Voice , But Saw Not A Man ! ''

We Now Go To Acts 26 ; 13 - 14 To Find The Third Contradiction . At This Point , The Deceiver Paul Is Defending Himself Before King Agrippa ;

Contradiction Three ;
Acts 26 ; 13 - 14 , And I Quote ; 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining round me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It hurts you to kick against the sticks .

The Deceiver Paul Just Said In Acts 9 ; 4 - 7 , And 22 ; 7 - 9 That ONLY He Fell To The Ground !!!! After We Listen To The Deceiver Paul Contradictions , It Makes It Very Difficult To Believe That The Deceiver Paul Ever Had A Vision . The Deceiver Paul Is A LIAR And His Own Word Confirm It !!!!! Romans 3 ; 7 , And I Quote ; 7 But if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?

Having The Behavior Of A Liar , As Usual , Paul '' The Self Appointed Apostle , Continued To Prove Himself A Liarr . In None Of The Other Quotes Had He Said That Jesus Spoke To Him In The Hebrew Tongue ! However , In The Following Quote , ( Acts 26 ; 16 ) , Paul '' The Self Appointed Apostle , Says That Jesus Appeared To Him To Make Him A Minister . Is This Why Paul '' The Self Appointed Apostle , Though He Was Supposed To Be A Disciple ? Acts 26 ; 14 - 16 .
 
More Next Post


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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: chall0121
Date Posted: 04 April 2011 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by IssaEl999

Originally posted by chall0121

It is my understanding that the virgin birth is a Scriptural truth to be accepted by faith.  There isn't any proof.  The point is that Jesus is both man and God.  The concept is that God "fused" His own being with full humanity in the womb of Mary.  Thus Jesus is a man, who is also God by virtue of union with the Father. 
 
Paul expressed that the Law was just and holy.  It is an expression of God's own holiness.  Yet the Law was never intended to be obeyed to bring the necessary righteousness for salvation.  Only ABSOLUTE perfection can earn Heaven.  That means that if one commits a single sin... that person is disqualified from going to Heaven forever.  That is how serious sin is.  Jesus, who is believed to be both man and God, is believed to be absolutely perfect.  Through the cross, Jesus Christ willingly died in the believer's place, taking the wrath of God upon Himself, fulfilling God's judgment against sin.  Just as Jesus took our sinfulness upon Himself (every last sin that has been committed and will be committed), Jesus imputes His own absolute righteousness upon the believer.  The believer is then seen by God clothed in Christ's righteousness, absolute perfection, being hidden from judgment. 
 
So Paul didn't necessarily abolish the Law.  Paul simply expressed the Law's ultimate purpose in revealing God's holiness, the requirement for Heaven, and how it relates to Christ's righteousness as imputed to the believer. 
 
At least... that's my understanding of it.  lol 
 
 
Thankyou For Your Answer ( chall )
 
If Saul , Shaool , Paul was going to teach the Gentiles then he should have been converting them to the teaching and the laws of the person whom he claimed to be receiving all of these visions from . For Example ;
 
Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Said ; Keep the Sabbath ( Mark 2 ; 27 ) circumcise male children on the 8th day ( Luke 2 ; 21 ) .
Saul , Shaool , Paul ; Circumcision is not necessary ( Romans 2 ; 26 ) all you need is '' circumcison of the heart '' ( Romans 2 ; 29 ) that is going against what Jesus Christ said in John 7 ; 22 - 23 . The word ANTI meaning , '' to go against '' so Anti - Christ means to go against anything that Jesus Christ taught .
Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Said ; Unless you are baptized you shall not see the kingdom of God ( John 3 ; 3 -5 ) .
Saul , Shaool , Paul ; You are saved by accepting Jesus ; he does not mention Baptism ( Roman 10 ; 9 - 10 ) .
The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; In 2Chronicles 7 ; 12 - 16 , it says that , the Lord dwells in chosen temples , a law through Mosheh , Musa , Moses ,
Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; in Acts 7 ; 48 , '' The Most High does not dwell in temples , '' God dwells in light in 1Timothy 6 ; 16 says Saul , Shaool , Paul
Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; Anger is approved by him in Ephesians 4 ; 26 , as well as , in Proverbs 22 ;24 .
The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; It is law that every man - child be circumcised in Genesis 17 ; 10 ,
 Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; You will gain nothing if you are circumcised in Galatians 5 ; 2 .
The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy in Exodus 20 ; 8 ,
 Saul , Shaool , Paul says ;Don't judge a man who does not keep the Sabbath in Romans 14 ; 5 And Colossians 2 ; 16 ,
 The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; Do not eat pork in Leviticus 11 ; 7 , And the swine , though he divide the hoof . and be cloven footed , yet he cheweth not the cud ; he is unclean to you , '' Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; You can eat anything in Roman 14 ; 2 , '' For one believeth that he may eat all things ; another , who is weak , eateth herbs ,
 
Saul , Shaool , Paul even went against the Baptism 1Corinthians 1; 14 , 17 , And I Quote ; I thank God ( Theos , Elohyeem ) that I baptized none of you , but Crispus and Gaius ( 17 ) For Christ sent me not to baptize , but to preach the gospel ; not wisdom of words , lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect , '' which Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus , himself was given by Yowkhanan Yahya , John ( Baptist ) . Make not that Yowkhanan Yahya , John ( Zebedee ) still spoke of Baptism after Saul , Shaool , Paul's statement because his books came later , Yet , still in John 1 ; 26 , it says '' John answered them , saying , I Baptize with water ; but there standeth one among you , whom ye know not .
 
Mark 1; 9 , And I Quote ' And it came to pass in those days , that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was Baptized of John in Jordan .
 
John 1 ; 33 , And I Quote ; And I knew him not ; but he that sent me To Baptize with water , the same said unto me , Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining on him , the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost .
 
 John 4 ; 1 , And I Quote When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and Baptized more Disciples that John .
 
And Saul , Shaool , Paul is going against Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus and makes a false statement by saying , '' For Christ Sent Me Not To Baptize .... '' Christ DID NOT SENT PAUL ... CHRIST NEVER KNEW PAUL ,.. This Is A Historical And Undisputable Fact . And when And Saul , Shaool , Paul , claimed in Acts 28 ; 28 that '' The salvation of God ( Theos , Elohyeem ) is sent unto the Gentiles and they will hear it '' . This is not True ,  Saul , Shaool , Paul is the Apostle of the Gentiles Only ,
 
 
More In Next Verse .
 
 
Great questions!  Those are also questions many Christians have.  It's the Christian understanding that God operates according to "covenants".  The Mosaic Covenant (Covenant of Moses) is often referred to theologically among Christians as "the Law".  The Law wasn't ever intended to make man righteous.  In fact, most of the Laws were ceremonial and civil, laws for a priesthood and a nation.  Yet the Pharisees had made the Law into an intricate code of ethics and laws by which a man was supposedly to be made righteous.  Jesus was born under the Law.  The covenant of the Law was still in effect.  Thus all that Christ said and did was "under the law".  For example, Jesus upholds Deuteronomy 24:1-4 in Matthew 19.  Jesus also told the healed lepper to show himself to the priest, something demanded of the Law of Moses.  But when Jesus died... Jesus fulfilled the Law.  The Law is... the soul that sins must die.  It's a judgment.  Jesus died to fulfill the Law.  Believed to be holy and sinless, Christ's blood was more than adequate to satisfy the Law's demands.  Thus the dispensation of the Law ended at the cross.  In Christ the Law was nailed to the cross... along with every sin of mankind.  Jesus took our sins... so that He might impart His righteousness to us.  We DON'T deserve it.  Never could and never will.  It's a gift from a loving God who is so Holy His justice must be appeased.  So Christ became our propitiation.  Now... with the Law fulfilled Paul meets Jesus on the Road to Damascus.  It is revealed to Paul that God is now operating under a New Covenant (New Testament), a Covenant of Grace.  And so yes... Paul breaks from the demands of the Law and begins laying down the principles of grace by which Christians are to live and embrace. 
 
So I agree.  Jesus and Paul do differ somewhat in teaching.  But the key to understanding this is covenantal dispensation.  Just as it is believed by Muslims that Mohammed (PBUH) offered the Quran, which is believed to be superior to previous revelations, so to through Paul, Christ provides a Covenant that Supercedes the Law of Moses.  So now Sabbath laws (which were a shadow of the dispensation of grace), dietary rules (which only served to separate the people from that which was largely pagan), circumcision, etc. are no longer applicable.  All that they truly represented was found and fulfilled in Christ Jesus.  Now, the Christian observes ordinances that point to Christ (baptism and the Lord's Supper for example). 
 
So yes, Jesus and Paul differ.  But there is believed to be a reason for this.  Now God is focused on the heart of man.  Not man's "performance".  Why?  Because if the heart changes, performance is sure to follow.  However, a man can have an evil heart and act out religious ceremonies and ceremonial observances without a problem.  Many of the most vile and sinful men have been "religious".  Thus this demonstrates that religious rituals and observances of laws do nothing to redeem mankind. 
 
Man needs a supernatural change of heart, provided by the grace of Jesus Christ. 
 
At least... that's my understanding. 
 


Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 06 April 2011 at 5:17am
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by IssaEl999

Thankyou For Your Answer (chall. If , Paul was going to teach the Gentiles then he should have been converting them to the teaching and the laws of the person whom he claimed to be receiving all of these visions from. For Example;Keep the Sabbath (Mark 2;27) circumcise male children on the 8th day Luke 2;21)...

Issa, I think its time you actually added something to the discussion, so far all you have done is copy what can be found in other placers. In this particular post it comes from http://www.forumgarden.com/forums/general-religious-discussions/38519-pauls-christianity-vs-jesus-christianity-m-z-york.html and it says there that it is the work of someone called M. Z. York whose posting you can find all over the place and his work is known as Nuwaubianism.

If you want more if this rubbish go and read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuwaubianism
 
 
 
You Know What Funny About You , Your Full Of Excuse . Trying To Label Me Doesn't   Get It . I Know Some Of Those Brother's , Like I Know Some Muslims / Christians And We Have Study Together . People Like Yourself Always Look For Away To Attack Other Teaching . Resarch . When It Dosen't Agree With What You Believe/  Accept , This Is And Old Trick To Sabotage The Post . When You , Yourself Go To Your Favor Website And Copy & Paste Thing And Clam It As Your Like SOME People Here Do . Unlike You I Don't Post Anything I Don't Research / Study On My Own . Like I Have Said I'm Not Here To Convert Anyone Here Only For Conformation On What I Have Learn / Research / Study Nomore Noless . So Your Not Doing Any Slick Here . Personally I Find You To Be Funny / A Joke . http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19125 - As Salaaamu Alaykum
 
I Have A Question For You Ok . With The Many Diffrent Sects Of Muslims & And The Many Denomination Of Christians And Their Diffrent Schools Of Though / Teaching . Why Don't You Post The Real / True Teaching Of  ONE These To Religion For Us According To Their Holy Books Chapter / Verse . To Show Us What You Know . Whatever You Do Don't Come Half Steping Or Any Of Your Excuses This Time Or s*****p Ok .


-------------
El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 06 April 2011 at 5:23am
Originally posted by chall0121

Originally posted by IssaEl999

Originally posted by chall0121

It is my understanding that the virgin birth is a Scriptural truth to be accepted by faith.  There isn't any proof.  The point is that Jesus is both man and God.  The concept is that God "fused" His own being with full humanity in the womb of Mary.  Thus Jesus is a man, who is also God by virtue of union with the Father. 
 
Paul expressed that the Law was just and holy.  It is an expression of God's own holiness.  Yet the Law was never intended to be obeyed to bring the necessary righteousness for salvation.  Only ABSOLUTE perfection can earn Heaven.  That means that if one commits a single sin... that person is disqualified from going to Heaven forever.  That is how serious sin is.  Jesus, who is believed to be both man and God, is believed to be absolutely perfect.  Through the cross, Jesus Christ willingly died in the believer's place, taking the wrath of God upon Himself, fulfilling God's judgment against sin.  Just as Jesus took our sinfulness upon Himself (every last sin that has been committed and will be committed), Jesus imputes His own absolute righteousness upon the believer.  The believer is then seen by God clothed in Christ's righteousness, absolute perfection, being hidden from judgment. 
 
So Paul didn't necessarily abolish the Law.  Paul simply expressed the Law's ultimate purpose in revealing God's holiness, the requirement for Heaven, and how it relates to Christ's righteousness as imputed to the believer. 
 
At least... that's my understanding of it.  lol 
 
 
Thankyou For Your Answer ( chall )
 
If Saul , Shaool , Paul was going to teach the Gentiles then he should have been converting them to the teaching and the laws of the person whom he claimed to be receiving all of these visions from . For Example ;
 
Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Said ; Keep the Sabbath ( Mark 2 ; 27 ) circumcise male children on the 8th day ( Luke 2 ; 21 ) .
Saul , Shaool , Paul ; Circumcision is not necessary ( Romans 2 ; 26 ) all you need is '' circumcison of the heart '' ( Romans 2 ; 29 ) that is going against what Jesus Christ said in John 7 ; 22 - 23 . The word ANTI meaning , '' to go against '' so Anti - Christ means to go against anything that Jesus Christ taught .
Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Said ; Unless you are baptized you shall not see the kingdom of God ( John 3 ; 3 -5 ) .
Saul , Shaool , Paul ; You are saved by accepting Jesus ; he does not mention Baptism ( Roman 10 ; 9 - 10 ) .
The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; In 2Chronicles 7 ; 12 - 16 , it says that , the Lord dwells in chosen temples , a law through Mosheh , Musa , Moses ,
Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; in Acts 7 ; 48 , '' The Most High does not dwell in temples , '' God dwells in light in 1Timothy 6 ; 16 says Saul , Shaool , Paul
Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; Anger is approved by him in Ephesians 4 ; 26 , as well as , in Proverbs 22 ;24 .
The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; It is law that every man - child be circumcised in Genesis 17 ; 10 ,
 Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; You will gain nothing if you are circumcised in Galatians 5 ; 2 .
The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy in Exodus 20 ; 8 ,
 Saul , Shaool , Paul says ;Don't judge a man who does not keep the Sabbath in Romans 14 ; 5 And Colossians 2 ; 16 ,
 The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; Do not eat pork in Leviticus 11 ; 7 , And the swine , though he divide the hoof . and be cloven footed , yet he cheweth not the cud ; he is unclean to you , '' Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; You can eat anything in Roman 14 ; 2 , '' For one believeth that he may eat all things ; another , who is weak , eateth herbs ,
 
Saul , Shaool , Paul even went against the Baptism 1Corinthians 1; 14 , 17 , And I Quote ; I thank God ( Theos , Elohyeem ) that I baptized none of you , but Crispus and Gaius ( 17 ) For Christ sent me not to baptize , but to preach the gospel ; not wisdom of words , lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect , '' which Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus , himself was given by Yowkhanan Yahya , John ( Baptist ) . Make not that Yowkhanan Yahya , John ( Zebedee ) still spoke of Baptism after Saul , Shaool , Paul's statement because his books came later , Yet , still in John 1 ; 26 , it says '' John answered them , saying , I Baptize with water ; but there standeth one among you , whom ye know not .
 
Mark 1; 9 , And I Quote ' And it came to pass in those days , that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was Baptized of John in Jordan .
 
John 1 ; 33 , And I Quote ; And I knew him not ; but he that sent me To Baptize with water , the same said unto me , Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining on him , the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost .
 
 John 4 ; 1 , And I Quote When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and Baptized more Disciples that John .
 
And Saul , Shaool , Paul is going against Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus and makes a false statement by saying , '' For Christ Sent Me Not To Baptize .... '' Christ DID NOT SENT PAUL ... CHRIST NEVER KNEW PAUL ,.. This Is A Historical And Undisputable Fact . And when And Saul , Shaool , Paul , claimed in Acts 28 ; 28 that '' The salvation of God ( Theos , Elohyeem ) is sent unto the Gentiles and they will hear it '' . This is not True ,  Saul , Shaool , Paul is the Apostle of the Gentiles Only ,
 
 
More In Next Verse .
 
 
Great questions!  Those are also questions many Christians have.  It's the Christian understanding that God operates according to "covenants".  The Mosaic Covenant (Covenant of Moses) is often referred to theologically among Christians as "the Law".  The Law wasn't ever intended to make man righteous.  In fact, most of the Laws were ceremonial and civil, laws for a priesthood and a nation.  Yet the Pharisees had made the Law into an intricate code of ethics and laws by which a man was supposedly to be made righteous.  Jesus was born under the Law.  The covenant of the Law was still in effect.  Thus all that Christ said and did was "under the law".  For example, Jesus upholds Deuteronomy 24:1-4 in Matthew 19.  Jesus also told the healed lepper to show himself to the priest, something demanded of the Law of Moses.  But when Jesus died... Jesus fulfilled the Law.  The Law is... the soul that sins must die.  It's a judgment.  Jesus died to fulfill the Law.  Believed to be holy and sinless, Christ's blood was more than adequate to satisfy the Law's demands.  Thus the dispensation of the Law ended at the cross.  In Christ the Law was nailed to the cross... along with every sin of mankind.  Jesus took our sins... so that He might impart His righteousness to us.  We DON'T deserve it.  Never could and never will.  It's a gift from a loving God who is so Holy His justice must be appeased.  So Christ became our propitiation.  Now... with the Law fulfilled Paul meets Jesus on the Road to Damascus.  It is revealed to Paul that God is now operating under a New Covenant (New Testament), a Covenant of Grace.  And so yes... Paul breaks from the demands of the Law and begins laying down the principles of grace by which Christians are to live and embrace. 
 
So I agree.  Jesus and Paul do differ somewhat in teaching.  But the key to understanding this is covenantal dispensation.  Just as it is believed by Muslims that Mohammed (PBUH) offered the Quran, which is believed to be superior to previous revelations, so to through Paul, Christ provides a Covenant that Supercedes the Law of Moses.  So now Sabbath laws (which were a shadow of the dispensation of grace), dietary rules (which only served to separate the people from that which was largely pagan), circumcision, etc. are no longer applicable.  All that they truly represented was found and fulfilled in Christ Jesus.  Now, the Christian observes ordinances that point to Christ (baptism and the Lord's Supper for example). 
 
So yes, Jesus and Paul differ.  But there is believed to be a reason for this.  Now God is focused on the heart of man.  Not man's "performance".  Why?  Because if the heart changes, performance is sure to follow.  However, a man can have an evil heart and act out religious ceremonies and ceremonial observances without a problem.  Many of the most vile and sinful men have been "religious".  Thus this demonstrates that religious rituals and observances of laws do nothing to redeem mankind. 
 
Man needs a supernatural change of heart, provided by the grace of Jesus Christ. 
 
At least... that's my understanding. 
 
 
Question If I May , So What Your Saying Is The Laws Of Moses Which Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Christ Follow Is Out Dated ? And The Teaching Of Paul  Is For This Day And Time Yes .


-------------
El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 06 April 2011 at 6:37am
Originally posted by IssaEl999

't Shake The Trinity. No Matter How Many Time, Your Or I Try To It Plan It. There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing, In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing. They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank, Quantity. Space, Density, Authority, Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father, Time Make The Difference, The Father Would Have To Had Been First, Before The Son. This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad. No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One. Now If They Can't See This (Their Lost)
I see so you have cooked up an argument about God, the God who made the vastness of the Universes so you have made your tiny mind the measure of all things.

You say God is one, no partners or equals. Well what does that mean - is God one person sitting somewhere in the Universe or outside it and we would recognise him as one thing or is God everywhere in which case we must be one with God and no different from God or something else?

Today perhaps a billion Muslims will say exactly the same prayers and say them several times so does God hear each one individually or does he pick one person out as representative? Ipso facto God cannot be one or listen to so many people all at the same time.



Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 06 April 2011 at 6:58am
Originally posted by IssaEl999

The Deceiver Paul Acclaimed Vision Is The Only Evidence The Deceiver Paul Could Produce For His Bid For The Leadership Of The New Church The Deceiver Would Raise.

I see nowhere in the NT Paul making a bid for leadership but what I do see is a man who was on the move more or less all his life testifying to the Gospel.

In the book of Acts we have not one, not two, but three accounts of Saul's conversion. Here's a sample from the major focus points:

Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

A simple solution in this regard says either that:

In the second verse, the word means "understood," not "heard." or, In the first verse, the word "voice" should be translated "sound." However, there are obvious and simple solutions that have nothing to do with language.

The trouble with you is that you start out with what you want to prove and never bother to look at alternative. I will bet ANY amount of money that if I suggested a Qu'ran contradiction, and there are hundreds of them, you would do the opposite, you are not an honest broker are you?


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 April 2011 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by honeto

You wrote: " The point is that Jesus is both man and God." Where did that come from and how is that different from similar claims by other religions that you probably do not accept, the Hindu concept in particular where God is told to have come down in various forms, both as man and animal. Also it does raise another valid question. Why during the period covering the OT prophets God is never mentioned to have come down in form of one of His own creation? Nowhere in the OT I find where awaited Massiah was told to be God himself.

This is a fair but difficult question and no Christian will say other that God is one. But in the NT we frequently read that Jesus claims to be one with God. For example we read in John 10:28-32 NIV "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Thus Jesus here claims to be God and who but God can redeem us?

Now a common objection to the idea that God is one in three and three in one is that it cannot be understood and of course I agree with that but at the same time I do not make my own mind the measure of all things and I accept in faith the triune God.

To see what I mean here about setting limits with our puny minds I might ask you what does it mean if God is one, without equals etc. Does it mean he sits in a chair somewhere and I can identify him as one person or is he everywhere or what? If he is one person in the sense that we might understand it how can he listen to a billion prayers and in the case of Islam listen to a billion people all saying the same prayers and saying it several time over. If God is everywhere its then hard to see he is one?
Bunter,
It is much clear than you try to blurr it. And let me explain, you mentioned there being some quotes pointing that he (Jesus) was God. A clear claim means that if he had said somewhere as " I am your God worship me" that will make a claim, not yet true or false. In my knowledge of the Bible, Jesus has nowhere made a clear claim like "I am God" like God did claim in OT or in the Quran. And: 1) it would be so pittyful not to make such a claim when someone comes in person but forget to make that claim clearly or to declare who he was. 2)we clearly see however that he prayed and cried to someone else, God almighty for help. 3) declared that "I am returning to my God and yoru God" which more clearly indicate that his God and your and my God is One and same.  Note if he says he has a God, what does that mean? Duh! I think that eliminates all other confusions for those who really want the truth.
Hasan 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 07 April 2011 at 11:40am
Originally posted by honeto

Bunter, It is much clear than you try to blurr it. And let me explain, you mentioned there being some quotes pointing that he (Jesus) was God. A clear claim means that if he had said somewhere as " I am your God worship me" that will make a claim, not yet true or false. In my knowledge of the Bible, Jesus has nowhere made a clear claim like "I am God" like God did claim in OT or in the Quran. And: 1) it would be so pittyful not to make such a claim when someone comes in person but forget to make that claim clearly or to declare who he was.... Note if he says he has a God, what does that mean? Duh! I think that eliminates all other confusions for those who really want the truth.
I take it that 'Duh' means I am something of a fool and your superior intellect lets you dispose of the divinity of Jesus in a few lines (or did you copy it). Have you never heard the aphorism "true wisdom is the knowledge of your own limitations." Frankly, I don't think you are interested in truth, but rather one of those persons who absurdly think that denigrating the faith of someone else enhances their own and satisfies their ego. Let me explain:

Firstly
Jesus’ claim about Himself
John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”

This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, and picked up stones to execute Him!

Secondly
Let me quote an authentic Hadith

The Prophet said, “If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it [in the drink], for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease” [Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537].)

Do you accept this as true? I don't and I don't need hadith science to tell me or indeed any science as the idea is obviously totally absurd



Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 08 April 2011 at 5:11am
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by honeto

Bunter, It is much clear than you try to blurr it. And let me explain, you mentioned there being some quotes pointing that he (Jesus) was God. A clear claim means that if he had said somewhere as " I am your God worship me" that will make a claim, not yet true or false. In my knowledge of the Bible, Jesus has nowhere made a clear claim like "I am God" like God did claim in OT or in the Quran. And: 1) it would be so pittyful not to make such a claim when someone comes in person but forget to make that claim clearly or to declare who he was.... Note if he says he has a God, what does that mean? Duh! I think that eliminates all other confusions for those who really want the truth.
I take it that 'Duh' means I am something of a fool and your superior intellect lets you dispose of the divinity of Jesus in a few lines (or did you copy it). Have you never heard the aphorism "true wisdom is the knowledge of your own limitations." Frankly, I don't think you are interested in truth, but rather one of those persons who absurdly think that denigrating the faith of someone else enhances their own and satisfies their ego. Let me explain:

Firstly
Jesus’ claim about Himself
John 8:58-59: "‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.”

This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was “I am” -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14. His listeners again got the point, and picked up stones to execute Him!

Secondly
Let me quote an authentic Hadith

The Prophet said, “If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it [in the drink], for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease” [Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 537].)

Do you accept this as true? I don't and I don't need hadith science to tell me or indeed any science as the idea is obviously totally absurd

 
 
LOLLOLLOLYashu'a , Isa , Jesus Never Claim To Be God / Creator . It's People Like Yourself , Who Make / Add Things To Verse That Are Not There .
 
( 1 ) . John 14 ; 2 >> In My Father House Are Many Mansions .>>> Jesus Said In My Father's House , He [ Didsn't Say In My House ] Would It Have Made Sense To Say In My House [ If He Was God ? ]

( 2 ) . Luke 2; 49 >> That I Must Be About My Father's Business '>> If Jesus Was God Why Did He Say I Must Be Of My Fathers Business , He Indicated . [ The Distinction Between Him And His Father .
 
If This Is  True As John 3; 16 Says , Then Jesus Had Nothing To Do With It It Was That Father That Sent Him . In Matthew 6 ; 9 As Jesus Say '' Our Father Who Art In Heaven '' Because Jesus Say In John 13 ; 16 '' I Am Not Greater Than He Who Sent Me '' And In John 5; 30 He Says Again That '' I On My Own Accord Can Do Nothing '' Call No Man Father , Because There Is One Father Who Art In Heaven And Jesus Says Clearly In Matthew 23; 9 '' And Call No Man Your Father Upon The Earth .
 
Christian Also Says Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus , Is The Way To His Father ( Yes ) If Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus  Is The Way To His Father . My Question Is Where Is He Takeing The Christian To . If He Himself Is God . bunter Cut The Games Ok Trick Are For Kids .


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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 08 April 2011 at 5:26am
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by IssaEl999

't Shake The Trinity. No Matter How Many Time, Your Or I Try To It Plan It. There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing, In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing. They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank, Quantity. Space, Density, Authority, Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father, Time Make The Difference, The Father Would Have To Had Been First, Before The Son. This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad. No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One. Now If They Can't See This (Their Lost)
I see so you have cooked up an argument about God, the God who made the vastness of the Universes so you have made your tiny mind the measure of all things.

You say God is one, no partners or equals. Well what does that mean - is God one person sitting somewhere in the Universe or outside it and we would recognise him as one thing or is God everywhere in which case we must be one with God and no different from God or something else?

Today perhaps a billion Muslims will say exactly the same prayers and say them several times so does God hear each one individually or does he pick one person out as representative? Ipso facto God cannot be one or listen to so many people all at the same time.

 
 
Don't Let My Name Fool You , I'm Not Muslims . You Speak Of Prayers '' Yes '' My Overstanding 90% Christian Don't Pray Until Sunday . And Most Christian Believe God Rested On The Seventh Day Which Is Sunday According To Them '' Right '' So The Christian God Is A Sleep / Resting On The Day Christian  Are Praying To Him . Thing That Make You Go Hummmmm . You Keep Trying To Prove To People How Smart You're When In Fact  Your Missing The Point Like The One Above .


-------------
El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 11 April 2011 at 9:41am
Originally posted by IssaEl999

Don't Let My Name Fool You , I'm Not Muslims . You Speak Of Prayers '' Yes '' My Overstanding 90% Christian Don't Pray Until Sunday . And Most Christian Believe God Rested On The Seventh Day Which Is Sunday According To Them '' Right '' So The Christian God Is A Sleep / Resting On The Day Christian  Are Praying To Him . Thing That Make You Go Hummmmm . You Keep Trying To Prove To People How Smart You're When In Fact  Your Missing The Point Like The One Above.

Your name fools no one and my question can be attempted by anyone. The trouble with people like you who think their smart is that they end up deluding themselves. Do you suppose that every text ever written must be taken entirely literally? If yes then you are bigger fool that I first thought and if not please explain how you distinguish the literal from other forms of text?

I am not expecting any answer as so nowhere can I find an answer from you to any question any one has asked.


Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 12 April 2011 at 12:30am
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by IssaEl999

Don't Let My Name Fool You , I'm Not Muslims . You Speak Of Prayers '' Yes '' My Overstanding 90% Christian Don't Pray Until Sunday . And Most Christian Believe God Rested On The Seventh Day Which Is Sunday According To Them '' Right '' So The Christian God Is A Sleep / Resting On The Day Christian  Are Praying To Him . Thing That Make You Go Hummmmm . You Keep Trying To Prove To People How Smart You're When In Fact  Your Missing The Point Like The One Above.

Your name fools no one and my question can be attempted by anyone. The trouble with people like you who think their smart is that they end up deluding themselves. Do you suppose that every text ever written must be taken entirely literally? If yes then you are bigger fool that I first thought and if not please explain how you distinguish the literal from other forms of text?

I am not expecting any answer as so nowhere can I find an answer from you to any question any one has asked.
 
 bunter <> Overstand One Who Sits , Talks And Eats At The Same Table With With A ( Fool ) Becomes Himself / Herself Fattened And Filled With The Appearance Of A Fool , And Speaks In The Same Tongue As A Fool , And The Name Of The Fool Is '' bunter '
 
 
LOOLOLOLOLOLOL Your Truely Full Of Yourself . Now To Answer Your Question , Yes One Should Take The Scriptures  ( Literally ) . Meaning Those Who Accept Them As The True Words Of Their Creator . One Must Also Have An Overstanding Of The Language Their Scriptures Were Written In . For How Can You Get The True Meaning / Overstanding In Another Language Your Scriptures Wasn't Written In Duhhh ? If You Took Time To Learn The Language / Research / Study The History / Cultures / Way Of Life /  That You Believe & Accept / You Claim You Know About . You Wouldn't  Have To Use Your Small Minded Insult To Flip / Change The Subject At Hand , Nor Would You Have To Make Up Your Own Rules / Lies Etc . Oh By The  Way The Diffrent Between You And I  , I Don't  Post Garbage And Expect People To Believe / Accept Anything I Post . One Thing I KNOW . Those Who Take The Time And Reserch Whatever I Post Will See  I'm Right . Your Looking  For A Pat On The Head Son , I'm Not .
 
It's Not The Things One Knows That Get Him Or Her In Trouble , Its The Things One Knows That Just Isn't So . Overstand


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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 13 April 2011 at 4:27pm

Issa, I have some news for you and the rest of the contributors to this thread.  The first item in your opening statement was about the supposed "Immaculate Conception" of Mary.  It's simply amazing to me that most of the Christians out there have no idea that this has absolutely nothing to do with dogma of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.  The "Immaculate Conception" has to do with Mary supposedly being free from "original sin" and nothing to do with whether or not she was a virgin at the time of Christ's birth.    



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 April 2011 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by honeto

You wrote: " The point is that Jesus is both man and God." Where did that come from and how is that different from similar claims by other religions that you probably do not accept, the Hindu concept in particular where God is told to have come down in various forms, both as man and animal. Also it does raise another valid question. Why during the period covering the OT prophets God is never mentioned to have come down in form of one of His own creation? Nowhere in the OT I find where awaited Massiah was told to be God himself.

This is a fair but difficult question and no Christian will say other that God is one. But in the NT we frequently read that Jesus claims to be one with God. For example we read in John 10:28-32 NIV "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Thus Jesus here claims to be God and who but God can redeem us?

Now a common objection to the idea that God is one in three and three in one is that it cannot be understood and of course I agree with that but at the same time I do not make my own mind the measure of all things and I accept in faith the triune God.

To see what I mean here about setting limits with our puny minds I might ask you what does it mean if God is one, without equals etc. Does it mean he sits in a chair somewhere and I can identify him as one person or is he everywhere or what? If he is one person in the sense that we might understand it how can he listen to a billion prayers and in the case of Islam listen to a billion people all saying the same prayers and saying it several time over. If God is everywhere its then hard to see he is one?
bunter,
I think those quotes you mentioned can be seen very differently than just the way you see them, and let me explain.
"I give them eternal life" can also mean, that I brought salvation, which is eternal life. Now, all of the prophets did that, and those who listened and followed them got "eternal life" or salvation. Those who did not, got eternal condemnation.
"I and Father are one" can also be seen simply as being one with God in righteousness. And by following God's commands we are told we will be with God, on the side of Goodness.
There are more clear and straight forward verses quoted to Jesus that say: "my Father is Greater than I" or I am returning to my God and your God".  These more clear statements about Jesus claiming to have a God who is Greater than him prove that there is something else is going on in the book.
I understand and accept that our minds have limits and we cannot comprehend things around us let alone God, who is the Creator of All. It is that reason that as a Muslim, one who submit to One and only God, we only say about God what God Himself has told us through His prophets.
God has guided mankind since Adam toward Himself. It is through this guidance that a true believer discovers the truth about His Creator.
God is All Knowing thus His statements and accounts do not contradict itself. If anything that is said to be His word contradicts within itself, it is a proof that either it is not from God, or its words or contents have been altered.
Simple and truthful as that!
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: IssaEl999
Date Posted: 14 April 2011 at 12:25pm
Originally posted by schmikbob

Issa, I have some news for you and the rest of the contributors to this thread.  The first item in your opening statement was about the supposed "Immaculate Conception" of Mary.  It's simply amazing to me that most of the Christians out there have no idea that this has absolutely nothing to do with dogma of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.  The "Immaculate Conception" has to do with Mary supposedly being free from "original sin" and nothing to do with whether or not she was a virgin at the time of Christ's birth.    

 
 
And You Speak Of Intelligent Framework.    ..........


-------------
El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 15 April 2011 at 6:59am
Issa, what are you referring to with "and You Speak Of Intelligent Framework.    .........."


Posted By: KelvinC
Date Posted: 18 June 2011 at 12:45am
I heard this news which mentions the issue about male circumcision. When we talk about circumcision it's a surgical procedure that is done when the child started to reach the right age. But, in the news that I've heard they mentioned that  Lloyd Schofield, a San Francisco resident, has productively gathered 7,700 legitimate signatures in his campaign to legally ban male circumcision. It was verified by election administrators that his suggestion will be on the city's Nov ballot. However, he is being opposed by United States Representative Brad Sherman (D-Calif.), who is suggesting a bill, referred to as the Religious and Parental Rights Defense Act of 2011, which seeks to prevent San Francisco and other municipalities from prohibiting circumcision. I read this here: http://www.newsytype.com/7742-circumcision-issue/ - San Francisco to vote on circumcision issue, newstype.com


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 June 2011 at 5:36pm
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by IssaEl999

Don't Let My Name Fool You , I'm Not Muslims . You Speak Of Prayers '' Yes '' My Overstanding 90% Christian Don't Pray Until Sunday . And Most Christian Believe God Rested On The Seventh Day Which Is Sunday According To Them '' Right '' So The Christian God Is A Sleep / Resting On The Day Christian  Are Praying To Him . Thing That Make You Go Hummmmm . You Keep Trying To Prove To People How Smart You're When In Fact  Your Missing The Point Like The One Above.

Your name fools no one and my question can be attempted by anyone. The trouble with people like you who think their smart is that they end up deluding themselves. Do you suppose that every text ever written must be taken entirely literally? If yes then you are bigger fool that I first thought and if not please explain how you distinguish the literal from other forms of text?

I am not expecting any answer as so nowhere can I find an answer from you to any question any one has asked.
 
Bunter,
care to share your views about the following, how do you take them?

2 Corinthians 11:31

Common English Bible (CEB)

31 "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, ..."

Jesus is quoted to have said: 
John 14:28
" ........because the Father is greater than me."
 
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 01 July 2011 at 3:21pm
For Hasan - if one wants to appreciate how the trinity comes about you might care to examine.

Who does the whole of Scripture proclaim to be God?
Ephesians 4:6 proclaims the Father to be God.
Titus 2:13; John 1:1,14; 20:28 proclaim the Son to be God.
Acts 5:3-4 proclaims the Holy Spirit to be God.
And of course Deuteronomy 4:35 proclaims God to be the one, true God.

It is not really about understaning it but about what the scripture says and of course what you understand a person, in this ace God implies


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 July 2011 at 9:46am
To Bunter,
that's my point: contents of the same book contradict each other. A proof that in it's such conflicting state it cannot be claimed to be pure word of God. If it was pure word of God, it would not do so rather it will be in absolute agreement within itself.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Modern enlightened Christians don't believe virgin birth to be a biological fact. Jesus, the human being, had a biological father too. Immaculate conception can have a symbolic meaning.

Modern enlightened Muslims don't believe in the physical night journey of Muhammad. This too has a symbolic meaning.

 
I disagree Matt.  I am an educated person (I am not convinced that modern is a gift from God, nor is what the world calls enlightened)
"in their wisdom they became fools"
That is what I believe, and I believe in the immaculate conception.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 05 July 2012 at 12:12pm
Weighing in;
If anything I feel that Paul preached the law... and grace and faith.  I feel he preached the message in its completenss.  He preached that it was their very faith that would cause them to follow God's laws... to stand out and be different from the world.
 
Are Christians doing this today?  Not all, in fact a very few...
but are all Muslims sinless?  or are we all fallible humans.
 
Jesus said that the path is narrow and there are few who find it.  I believe this applies across the board to all people of all religions.


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 06 July 2012 at 6:41am
Hey, all you enlightened and educated Christians out there.  The virgin birth has nothing to do with the immaculate conception.  At least understand what your religion's dogma says. 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 July 2012 at 11:42am
Originally posted by schmikbob

Hey, all you enlightened and educated Christians out there.  The virgin birth has nothing to do with the immaculate conception.  At least understand what your religion's dogma says. 


You want to quibble over words and pick at a scab...

The issue is always about whether or not Mary knew a man in human form in order to conceive.  It is the conception that is questioned.  What occurred after conception is of little consequence, as to whether or not she was a virgin when she gave birth.  It is the conception that is debated.


Posted By: bunter
Date Posted: 06 July 2012 at 11:49am
Originally posted by schmikbob

Hey, all you enlightened and educated Christians out there.  The virgin birth has nothing to do with the immaculate conception.  At least understand what your religion's dogma says. 


Well why don't you explain?


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 07 July 2012 at 7:26am
The virgin birth is a very common claim in the old world.  This or that hero was born of a woman that did not have sexual intercourse to conceive the child in question.
 
The immaculate conception is a piece of Christian dogma that says that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was not born with the stain of the original sin brought about by Adam and Eve's trangression in the Garden of Eden.
 
I am shocked at the number of Christians that have no idea that these are very different ideas.  To base your life on the teachings of religion and then have no idea what those basic teachings are is almost beyond my ability to believe.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 09 July 2012 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by schmikbob

To base your life on the teachings of religion and then have no idea what those basic teachings are is almost beyond my ability to believe.


Me too.  But then one must seek to know, and one will never know if one does not seek.  However that is how God wants us to be... "as little children" we come to Him... by faith.  In seeking too much knowledge we only make ourselves fools.
"in their wisdom they became fools"
Following in faith brings us the life God intended us to have.  Of course it helps when all follow the same faith... but then, there is of course, the force of evil that seeks to thwart God's plan.
law of physics(the laws set in motion by the Creator Himself)
for every force there is an equal and opposing force
yin and yang
+  and  -
and we hang in the balance

And you do not believe in anything?  Does that make it easier?

Inquiring minds want to know  Big%20smile


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 July 2012 at 4:55pm
Bunter,
Jesus, according to Christians was a Jew. Do you know of any Jew who preach Trinity?
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: schmikbob
Date Posted: 19 July 2012 at 5:39pm
Caringheart, why do you think I believe in nothing? 


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 19 July 2012 at 9:21pm
I'm sorry, my own ignorance, or maybe I was just tired that night... I think I wrote that because you are agnostic. I admit I don't really understand Agnosticism.


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 21 July 2012 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by IssaEl999

<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" color=#000066>Ques ; The Immaculate Conception Of Mary That Christians ( Preach True ) ?
Ques ; How Does The Self Apointed  Saul , Shaool , Paul Justify Abolishing The Law ?


As'alaamu Alaikkum

I believe that the words in the Holy Qur'an are the words of God revealed to prophet Muhammed (pbuh) through the Archangel Gabriel (AS). As such I believe that Mary bore Jesus without being conceived through a human male. I believe that God made a miracle in the birth of Jesus (pbuh).

Paul was a fraud and a Roman spy. He was appointed by the Roman Emperor to spy on the Jewish Sanhedrin and to report back to Rome what they were doing in the Temple in Jerusalem. The new religion of Christianity scared the living daylights out of the Romans that they initially decided to throw them to the lions in the Colosseum. When that didn't work they decided to infiltrate the new religion and Paul had the bright idea of having a vision of the risen Christ on the road to Damascus. Then he decided to please the Romans by integrating the new religion with the pagan worship system of the Romans and true Christianity was born. Paul was able to convince everybody about his credentials because he knew the OT by heart as he was a Sanhedrin of the Jewish faith. When Jesus (pbuh) said he came to fulfil the Mosaic law, these new Christians decided to change it by saying that the old law was defunct by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. As a muslim, I know that Jesus was not crucified on the cross.

So modern Christianity was founded on a lie, and what a lie it is.


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 8:53am
As a modern Christian, Abu, I believe in critical thinking. You are just repeating what has been Islamic doctrine for the past 1400 years. So no surprise here. I also believe in interfaith dialog based on tolerance and mutual respect. Religious beliefs differ. There's no need to use words like lies. How would it make you feel if a zealous Christian told you that Allah talking to Muhammad through Jibreel was a lie? But I'm not zealous. I respect your belief.



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A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 22 July 2012 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

   I know that Jesus was not crucified on the cross.
 
 
How do you know?
Because a man named Muhammad said so?
and how do you know that Muhammad is not the liar?


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 2:51am
Originally posted by Matt Browne

As a modern Christian, Abu, I believe in critical thinking. You are just repeating what has been Islamic doctrine for the past 1400 years. So no surprise here. I also believe in interfaith dialog based on tolerance and mutual respect. Religious beliefs differ. There's no need to use words like lies. How would it make you feel if a zealous Christian told you that Allah talking to Muhammad through Jibreel was a lie? But I'm not zealous. I respect your belief.



As'alaamu Alaikkum

I used the word "LIE" because Christianity is founded on a lie or lies. For example, there is no evidence or eye witnesses to the experience Paul had on the road to Damascus. And as Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified then there is no way that Paul would have 'seen' the risen Christ. And we all know about the inter-mixing of the faith the pagan systems, don't we?


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 3:03am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren

   I know that Jesus was not crucified on the cross.

 
 
How do you know?
Because a man named Muhammad said so?
and how do you know that Muhammad is not the liar?


I know because God Himself tells me that the blessed Messiah was not crucified on the cross.

Sahih International
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. 4:157-8

A man named Muhammed (pbuh) didn't say so. You wouldn't understand because you lack faith.

I know Muhammed is not a liar because of my faith. I believe that Muhammed (pbuh)received revelations from God through the Archangel Gabriel (AS).


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 23 July 2012 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren

   I know that Jesus was not crucified on the cross.

 
 
How do you know?
Because a man named Muhammad said so?
and how do you know that Muhammad is not the liar?



[COLOR=BLUE]This man Muhammad had another name,and that name is Al-Amien the Truthful.In the entire Arab land which included Jews, Christians,and many other people and not one ever disputed his truthfulness.
http://www.adherents.com/adh_influ.html/



Rank     Name     Religious Affiliation     Influence


1     Muhammad     Islam     Prophet of Islam; conqueror of Arabia; Hart recognized that ranking Muhammad first might be controversial, but felt that, from a secular historian's perspective, this was the correct choice because Muhammad is the only man to have been both a founder of a major world religion and a major military/political leader. More


2     Isaac Newton     Anglican (rejected Trinitarianism, i.e.,
Athanasianism; believed in the Arianism
of the Primitive Church)     physicist; theory of universal gravitation; laws of motion


3     Jesus Christ *     Judaism; Christianity     founder of Christianity


4     Buddha     Hinduism; Buddhism     founder of Buddhism

5     Confucius     Confucianism     founder of Confucianism

6     St. Paul     Judaism; Christianity     proselytizer of Christianity
7     Ts'ai Lun     Chinese traditional religion     inventor of paper
8     Johann Gutenberg     Catholic     developed movable type; printed Bibles
9     Christopher Columbus     Catholic     explorer; led Europe to Americas
10     Albert Einstein     Jewish     physicist; relativity; Einsteinian physics


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren

   I know that Jesus was not crucified on the cross.

 
 
How do you know?
Because a man named Muhammad said so?
and how do you know that Muhammad is not the liar?


I know because God Himself tells me that the blessed Messiah was not crucified on the cross.

Sahih International
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. 4:157-8

A man named Muhammed (pbuh) didn't say so. You wouldn't understand because you lack faith.

I know Muhammed is not a liar because of my faith. I believe that Muhammed (pbuh)received revelations from God through the Archangel Gabriel (AS).


I do not lack faith...
only in your Muhammad.
God did not tell you these things,
Muhamamad did.
You have faith in Muhammad.

I have faith in the testimony of a great many eyewitnesses and the word of many men inspired by God who are in agreement one with another.


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 11:54am
Originally posted by iec786

not one ever disputed his truthfulness.



Hmm, I wonder....
this made me think.

If no one disputed his truthfulness would not all Jews and Christians in the territory have become followers of Muhammad?


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 24 July 2012 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

there is no evidence or eye witnesses to the experience Paul had on the road to Damascus.

 And we all know about the inter-mixing of the faith the pagan systems, don't we?


Addressing the first... regarding Paul;

And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus...


While the men that were with him on the road be not named... obviously someone had to lead him into Damascus.

Ananais is named as having healed Paul's eyes, which testifies to his blindness, and his calling.

So here we have witnesses.  Surely this would be an easily verifiable history by the Roman's who had sent him to Damascus for a different purpose.  (And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.)


As to the second - "inter-mixing of the faith the pagan systems"

You mean like the worshiping at the Kabba that the pagans did long before Muhammad came along with the religion of Islam?  Like the inclusion of the Jinn in the word Muhammad 'revealed' from god?  Yes culture and religion always influence one another.

God cares what is in the heart.  He cares that one believes in Him and that love leads them to do His will.  He cares less for the outward adherence to law, which is why Jesus spoke so frequently against the Pharisees.  The only law, being the one that matters, is that we have Love. 

Why would God care about anything else?  Does God require anything of us?  Does He need anything from us.  No.  He is the Creator of all.  God gives us His law to follow for our own good, because of His love for us.  When we choose not to follow we hurt Him by creating hurt to ourselves.  If we love, then we choose not to wound.
Heart


Posted By: Abu Loren
Date Posted: 25 July 2012 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Caringheart

As to the second - "inter-mixing of the faith the pagan systems"

You mean like the worshiping at the Kabba that the pagans did long before Muhammad came along with the religion of Islam?  Like the inclusion of the Jinn in the word Muhammad 'revealed' from god?  Yes culture and religion always influence one another.


 
Peter was the chosen disciple of Jesus (pbuh) to preach to the people after he was gone. Paul came to Jerusalem and overthrew the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh) and started a new religion all by himself.
 
As I said in another thread, prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) built the Ka'ba in Mecca with his son Ishmael and the worship system that was instigated was how God wanted it to be. Then through the ages it disintegrated to idol worship culminating in about 360 idols being placed inside the Ka'ba at the time of prophet Muhammed. This is the very same reason why God wanted to destroy the idols and re-establish monotheism as started by prophet Ibrahim (pbuh).
 
Islam is the only religion in the world where true monotheism is perfected. As I have said repeatedly, it was ordered by God Almighty through the angel Jibril (AS).


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 25 July 2012 at 9:47am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by iec786

not one ever disputed his truthfulness.

Hmm, I wonder....this made me think.If no one disputed his truthfulness would not all Jews and Christians in the territory have become followers of Muhammad?




"Ye hypocrites . . ." MATTHEW 23:13
"Ye wicked and adulterous generation . . ." MATTHEW 16:4
"Ye whited sepulchres . . ." MATTHEW 23:27
"Ye generation of vipers . . ." MATTHEW 23:33
Al-Baqarah
(10) In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
(11) When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
(12) Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
(13) When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
(14) When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."

(15) Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).
(16) These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,
(17) Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

(18) Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).


Posted By: iec786
Date Posted: 25 July 2012 at 9:50am
I have faith in the testimony of a great many eyewitnesses and the word of many men inspired by God who are in agreement one with another.



PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit:
   "But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I
CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 July 2012 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by iec786

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by iec786

not one ever disputed his truthfulness.

Hmm, I wonder....this made me think.If no one disputed his truthfulness would not all Jews and Christians in the territory have become followers of Muhammad?


"Ye hypocrites . . ." MATTHEW 23:13
"Ye wicked and adulterous generation . . ." MATTHEW 16:4
"Ye whited sepulchres . . ." MATTHEW 23:27
"Ye generation of vipers . . ." MATTHEW 23:33
Al-Baqarah
(10) In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
(11) When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
(12) Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
(13) When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
(14) When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."

(15) Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).
(16) These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,
(17) Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

(18) Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).



This doesn't really answer what I posted.  If all were convinced of Muhammad's truthfulness then all would have followed Muhammad.

What it does address however is the fact that we believe the same(Muhammad took from the Christian teaching so it would be the same).  We both believe that man can be blinded to God's truth.  The difference is Jesus did not say to kill those who you believe to be blind.  He did not say to 'kill those who do not believe in Me'.  This is where Muhammad 'changed the Word of God' as was prophesied.
You believe Paul changed the Word of God.  I do not see that.  I see that the testimony of many men from the time(not one man) are in agreement, and in agreement with the prophesies from before Jesus.



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 July 2012 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by iec786

I have faith in the testimony of a great many eyewitnesses and the word of many men inspired by God who are in agreement one with another.

PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit:
   "But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I
CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16


Greetings Ismail,

I am glad to have these questions.  They challenge me to think seriously about my own faith.  They also allow me(through God's leading) to show how the scriptures can be misunderstood if not studied properly.
Just as some on these forums have helped me to see where I misunderstand some of the Quran'ic writing.  We must know how it is the people understand their scriptures to mean, so that we may understand what it is that the people follow.

These which you quote only confirm what I have said... that I am pleased to have the testimony of many men and not just one.  Yes, this is a disturbing statement of Paul's but reading it in context...
Does it anywhere in the context explain what this comment means? 
Let's examine the context of what Paul is saying.
13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.
15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.
16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?
He is saying that he required nothing of them and it was through the witness of his own self sacrifice that they were won over.
12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory.
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents,
I recommend a study of the whole chapter.
13 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 Corinthians 13

Salaam,
Caringheart



Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 27 July 2012 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

As to the second - "inter-mixing of the faith the pagan systems"

You mean like the worshiping at the Kabba that the pagans did long before Muhammad came along with the religion of Islam?  Like the inclusion of the Jinn in the word Muhammad 'revealed' from god?  Yes culture and religion always influence one another.

 
Peter was the chosen disciple of Jesus (pbuh) to preach to the people after he was gone. Paul came to Jerusalem and overthrew the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh) and started a new religion all by himself.
 
As I said in another thread, prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) built the Ka'ba in Mecca with his son Ishmael and the worship system that was instigated was how God wanted it to be. Then through the ages it disintegrated to idol worship culminating in about 360 idols being placed inside the Ka'ba at the time of prophet Muhammed. This is the very same reason why God wanted to destroy the idols and re-establish monotheism as started by prophet Ibrahim (pbuh).
 
Islam is the only religion in the world where true monotheism is perfected. As I have said repeatedly, it was ordered by God Almighty through the angel Jibril (AS).


Greetings Abu Loren,
(I don't know why, I just want to say "Greetings Abu".  It has a nice sound to it.  Smile)

Anyway... Regarding Peter and Paul...
I can easily see how you might see it this way.  But we have the eyewitness of many to Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus.  We have the account of his blindness.  We have the eyewitness of Ananais being sent to him by God. 

So yes, you would have to believe in the conversion of Paul and the vision of God coming to him and speaking to him.
Aside from all that, I find nothing in the teaching of Paul that is reprehensible or disagreeable to what was taught by Jesus himself.  In fact Paul teaches against the same things that Muhammad taught against.
I agree that the church is not what Jesus would want and that Paul had a hand in that... the building of the church... but his teachings are sound if you go by the Book.

Regarding the Kabba and Ishmael and Abraham...
Yes, we probably have spoken about this, and I have probably said this before...
If this is so then why is there no recorded writing of it anywhere in history?
It is my understanding that the Kabba has everything to do with the 'rock that was sent down from heaven'.
"Islam is the only religion in the world where true monotheism is perfected. As I have said repeatedly, it was ordered by God Almighty through the angel Jibril (AS)."
Saying it repeatedly will not make it so.  But you do make me think about this...
'the only religion where monotheism is perfected'
What about the Jews?  They only worship one God.
And so do the Christians, the way they understand it in their hearts, and from the mouth of Jesus Himself.  (Which I know you will reject, but what about the Jews?)

Why is Islam in your mind the only religion where monotheism is perfected?

Why do you believe anything in this world can be perfected?

Do you not attribute a great deal to man, of which he is not capable, as long as satan is still around?

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Matt Browne
Date Posted: 28 July 2012 at 4:13am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Matt Browne

As a modern Christian, Abu, I believe in critical thinking. You are just repeating what has been Islamic doctrine for the past 1400 years. So no surprise here. I also believe in interfaith dialog based on tolerance and mutual respect. Religious beliefs differ. There's no need to use words like lies. How would it make you feel if a zealous Christian told you that Allah talking to Muhammad through Jibreel was a lie? But I'm not zealous. I respect your belief.



As'alaamu Alaikkum

I used the word "LIE" because Christianity is founded on a lie or lies. For example, there is no evidence or eye witnesses to the experience Paul had on the road to Damascus. And as Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified then there is no way that Paul would have 'seen' the risen Christ. And we all know about the inter-mixing of the faith the pagan systems, don't we?


You claim that Christianity is founded on a lie or lies. But your claim doesn't make this true. Religious beliefs involve symbolic meanings. There is no evidence that the angel Gabriel talked to the Prophet Muhammad in cave of Hijra. Thinking this was so is a religious belief. Which I respect. So the difference between you and me is that I don't call your beliefs a lie.



-------------
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 05 August 2012 at 2:46pm
Assalamu alaika Matt Browne.


Congratulations! Congratulations! Congratulations. You are have become a follower of Muhammad but only that you are yet to have conviction. He told us never to say something bad on what was revealed before him.
Fr
iendship.



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by iec786

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by iec786

not one ever disputed his truthfulness.

Hmm, I wonder....this made me think.If no one disputed his truthfulness would not all Jews and Christians in the territory have become followers of Muhammad?


"Ye hypocrites . . ." MATTHEW 23:13
"Ye wicked and adulterous generation . . ." MATTHEW 16:4
"Ye whited sepulchres . . ." MATTHEW 23:27
"Ye generation of vipers . . ." MATTHEW 23:33
Al-Baqarah
(10) In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
(11) When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
(12) Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
(13) When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
(14) When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."

(15) Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).
(16) These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,
(17) Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

(18) Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).
This doesn't really answer what I posted.  If all were convinced of Muhammad's truthfulness then all would have followed Muhammad.What it does address however is the fact that we believe the same(Muhammad took from the Christian teaching so it would be the same).  We both believe that man can be blinded to God's truth.  The difference is Jesus did not say to kill those who you believe to be blind.  He did not say to 'kill those who do not believe in Me'.  This is where Muhammad 'changed the Word of God' as was prophesied.You believe Paul changed the Word of God.  I do not see that.  I see that the testimony of many men from the time(not one man) are in agreement, and in agreement with the prophesies from before Jesus.


Caringheart,
I do not know from where you get your knowledge of Islam my friend, but you are wrong again. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did not say to kill those who did not believe in him, if that's what you are saying.
And I suppose you see something else in these words of the Bible then how they appear, don't tell me there is love in there!
Matt 10: 34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law —
36     a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

And to further correct you: Prophet Mohammed did not follow what Prophet Jesus (pbut) said. They both followed what Allah said to them.

Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 1:41pm
Assalamu alaika Caringheart.



Is this actually your quote? :Hmm, I wonder....this made me think.If no one disputed his truthfulness would not all Jews and Christians in the territory have become followers of Muhammad?

Answer. Understand please that in Makka there were no Christians. In Medina the Jews lived in Fadak and 8 klm from the masjid Rasulullah in their expectation that when the messenger comes he will be from them. There were also no Christians. Christians of the Byzantine belief were living in Yemen. They all believed after the conquest of Makka.
The jews could not believe for the Shari'a was consolidated, perfected, simplified as a result of their behavior. without them, revelation and hence Muhammad Rasulullah could be senseless. Personally, I do not believe in accusing them of disbelief.  They played their role and were given place to live in Syria etc. THEY WILL BE FORGIVEN BY ALLAH. Please read that book I recommended for you.

Friendship




Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by honeto



Caringheart,
I do not know from where you get your knowledge of Islam my friend, but you are wrong again. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did not say to kill those who did not believe in him, if that's what you are saying.
And I suppose you see something else in these words of the Bible then how they appear, don't tell me there is love in there!
Matt 10: 34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law —
36     a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

And to further correct you: Prophet Mohammed did not follow what Prophet Jesus (pbut) said. They both followed what Allah said to them.

Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

from the Qur'an... I get my information from the Qur'an.  I am reading it.
'slay them [the disbelievers] where ye find them'
is a pretty good paraphrase.
and surah 4:89

regarding the passage from the Bible;
I did once struggle with this passage, but as I have come to know God's Word in its entirety and fullness, as I have drawn closer to Him, understanding has come. 

Jesus was making a simple statement of fact, that those who believe will not get along with those who disbelieve.  The fact of Jesus would cause divisions even amongst ones own families.

Is Ramadan over now?
If so, I hope it was fruitful for you.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Posted By: Caringheart
Date Posted: 06 August 2012 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

Is this actually your quote? :Hmm, I wonder....this made me think.If no one disputed his truthfulness would not all Jews and Christians in the territory have become followers of Muhammad?

Answer. Understand please that in Makka there were no Christians. In Medina the Jews lived in Fadak and 8 klm from the masjid Rasulullah in their expectation that when the messenger comes he will be from them. There were also no Christians. Christians of the Byzantine belief were living in Yemen. They all believed after the conquest of Makka.
The jews could not believe for the Shari'a was consolidated, perfected, simplified as a result of their behavior. without them, revelation and hence Muhammad Rasulullah could be senseless. Personally, I do not believe in accusing them of disbelief.  They played their role and were given place to live in Syria etc. THEY WILL BE FORGIVEN BY ALLAH. Please read that book I recommended for you.

Friendship



Yes, that was written by me.
Cool
Friendship, I need you, if you could, to remind me of what book?  If I were to try and find your old post to me on this computer it would take me half a day. Confused Could you private message the name of it to me, then it will not be lost.
Thanks.
Heart


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 August 2012 at 9:20am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by honeto


Caringheart,
I do not know from where you get your knowledge of Islam my friend, but you are wrong again. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) did not say to kill those who did not believe in him, if that's what you are saying.
And I suppose you see something else in these words of the Bible then how they appear, don't tell me there is love in there!
Matt 10: 34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law —
36     a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

And to further correct you: Prophet Mohammed did not follow what Prophet Jesus (pbut) said. They both followed what Allah said to them.

Hasan
Greetings Hasan,from the Qur'an... I get my information from the Qur'an.  I am reading it.'slay them [the disbelievers] where ye find them'is a pretty good paraphrase.and surah 4:89regarding the passage from the Bible;I did once struggle with this passage, but as I have come to know God's Word in its entirety and fullness, as I have drawn closer to Him, understanding has come.  Jesus was making a simple statement of fact, that those who believe will not get along with those who disbelieve.  The fact of Jesus would cause divisions even amongst ones own families.Is Ramadan over now?If so, I hope it was fruitful for you.Salaam,Caringheart


Caringheart,
I hope this is not how you conclude on issues that are important, by reading parts only. This is what the hate group do because they do know that is the only way to find problems, by reading incomplete sentences and drawing their meanings.
I expect of you more than that my friend as I hear from you so far that you want to learn.
I will help you with this as it is my duty to correct when I see a wrong.
The part of the Quranic quote you pasted has to be read complete in order to be benefited.
4:89 (Y. Ali) They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
4:90 (Y. Ali) Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

Thus, reading complete makes things clear I hope :)

Ramadan, Alhumdolillah (Praise God) is going great, it is going so fast, unbelievable, only ten more days. It feels like yesterday that we started the month, and here we are in the last ten days. May God Almighty accept our efforts and forgive the mistakes we make, Ameen.
Peace,
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Webber
Date Posted: 02 January 2013 at 10:13pm
Every once in a while someone wonders how they can look like they know something and have compiled information without doing the real work, so they hit answering-christianity.com, or some similar and find exactly what they were looking for. Or so they think. Sorry, I couldn't help but comment.

If Saul , Shaool , Paul was going to teach the Gentiles then he should have been converting them to the teaching and the laws of the person whom he claimed to be receiving all of these visions

Paul was a missionary; his job was to convert Gentiles, pagans, idol worshippers, w/e to Christianity, not to make Jews out of them.  Muhammad didn't make Jews out of Arabs either.  

Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Said ; Keep the Sabbath ( Mark 2 ; 27 ) circumcise male children on the 8th day ( Luke 2 ; 21 ) .

Jesus actually said the Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath. In its context, which is more than three (not in the verse) words, Jesus was refuting the Scribes and Pharisees for their criticism of the disciples who weren’t fasting on the Sabbath, were picking corn on the Sabbath, and His curing a boy with palsy on the Sabbath. According to the Pharisees and scribes all this was unlawful yet Jesus did and allowed His disciples to do these things on the Sabbath.  How does that interpret to “Keep the Sabbath”?

The same as your reference to Luke 2:21. Jesus was 8 days old and circumcised. Was this by His own orders? What child has authority to say or do anything about it at 8 days old? This is not a command of Jesus but a record to show He was circumcised, as were all Jews according to the law given Moses.

 

Saul , Shaool , Paul ; Circumcision is not necessary ( Romans 2 ; 26 ) all you need is '' circumcison of the heart '' ( Romans 2 ; 29 ) that is going against what Jesus Christ said in John 7 ; 22 - 23 . The word ANTI meaning , '' to go against '' so Anti - Christ means to go against anything that Jesus Christ taught .

Paul merely brought out the logic. If you are circumcised yet do not follow the law what good is it to you? If circumcision was the only way to heaven then every American soldier will be there.  Paul cautioned his people more about UNcircumcising themselves through their other sins.  See how context makes a difference?

 

Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Said ; Unless you are baptized you shall not see the kingdom of God ( John 3 ; 3 -5 ) .

This is a total misrepresentation. Wow, if anyone screwed up the Quran like this you’d be all over them. This is the corruption of the Bible right here. It’s called Muslim manipulation. The Quran warns of this, Muslims think it was way back when. It still happens.  Where is the word baptized used in this passage and in what translation? None. There is no reference to baptism here at all. What does it make reference to? Rebirth. Ye must be born again. By the logic you propose we were all baptized when our mother’s water broke. The point Jesus was making was a spiritual awakening, a rejuvenation of the mind by the Holy Spirit of God.

Saul , Shaool , Paul ; You are saved by accepting Jesus ; he does not mention Baptism ( Roman 10 ; 9 - 10 ) .

At least Paul knew what Jesus was talking about. Romans 12:2 Paul says; And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; In 2Chronicles 7 ; 12 - 16 , it says that , the Lord dwells in chosen temples , a law through Mosheh , Musa , Moses ,

Please do me a favor and read 2 Chronicles 7:12 – 16 and tell me where/how it says that.  Middle of verse 14 it says “Then I will hear from Heaven” It ends with “My eyes and my heart will be there perpetually. Who are Gods eyes? There are other places in the OT where it speaks of angels in the temples. It would seem by some of the descriptions that these angels were visable.

Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; in Acts 7 ; 48 , '' The Most High does not dwell in temples , '' God dwells in light in 1Timothy 6 ; 16 says Saul , Shaool , Paul

Paul must have been talking about God being in heaven, kinda like God said he was in 7:14.

Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; Anger is approved by him in Ephesians 4 ; 26 , as well as , in Proverbs 22 ;24 .

LOL, Paul says;  “ Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath” No idea how you get the “as well as” to Proverbs. Paul didn’t write Proverbs…

 

The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; It is law that every man - child be circumcised in Genesis 17 ; 10 , Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; You will gain nothing if you are circumcised in Galatians 5 ; 2 .

The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy in Exodus 20 ; 8 ,

 Saul , Shaool , Paul says ;Don't judge a man who does not keep the Sabbath in Romans 14 ; 5 And Colossians 2 ; 16 ,

This is just reiterated goop.

 The Law of Mosheh , Musa , Moses says ; Do not eat pork in Leviticus 11 ; 7 , And the swine , though he divide the hoof . and be cloven footed , yet he cheweth not the cud ; he is unclean to you , '' Saul , Shaool , Paul says ; You can eat anything in Roman 14 ; 2 , '' For one believeth that he may eat all things ; another , who is weak , eateth herbs ,

Now how does this statement made by Paul about a weak Christian have anything to do with some unfounded declaration that you can eat anything?

Saul , Shaool , Paul even went against the Baptism 1Corinthians 1; 14 , 17 , And I Quote ; I thank God ( Theos , Elohyeem ) that I baptized none of you , but Crispus and Gaius ( 17 ) For Christ sent me not to baptize , but to preach the gospel ; not wisdom of words , lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect , '' which Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus , himself was given by Yowkhanan Yahya , John ( Baptist ) . Make not that Yowkhanan Yahya , John ( Zebedee ) still spoke of Baptism after Saul , Shaool , Paul's statement because his books came later , Yet , still in John 1 ; 26 , it says '' John answered them , saying , I Baptize with water ; but there standeth one among you , whom ye know not .

Mark 1; 9 , And I Quote ' And it came to pass in those days , that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was Baptized of John in Jordan .  

John 1 ; 33 , And I Quote ; And I knew him not ; but he that sent me To Baptize with water , the same said unto me , Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and remaining on him , the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost .  

Take note, Baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.  Refer back to the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus. Muslims know nothing of this, nor do they understand. If anything, you use it against yourself.

Change the “and I quote” to “and I copy/paste” and you could at least redeem yourself by letting people know you didn’t put this thing together yourself.

Anything else you'd like to know about Paul?



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I'm a Gentile.
Numb. 6:24-26



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