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Ibn-Hazm (Khazem) and Corruption

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17710
Printed Date: 25 July 2014 at 3:41am


Topic: Ibn-Hazm (Khazem) and Corruption
Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Subject: Ibn-Hazm (Khazem) and Corruption
Date Posted: 05 November 2010 at 4:48pm
The cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics to Christians is the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption.  However, most Muslims:

1. Do not know the history of this doctrine.

2. Have never thought through the theological implications of this doctrine.

3. Have never thought through the historical implications of this doctrine.

In this thread, I would like to discuss these issues.

History of the Doctrine:

Ibn Hazm (aka Ibn Khazem) was the first Muslim to posit the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption in the 11th century AD.  Thus for the first four centuries of Islamic history this doctrine did not exist. This is in keeping with a literal grammatical reading of the Quran which claims to be " a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture" Surah 10:37

However, Ibn Hazm noticed that the Quran does not live up to the standard which it proclaims:
 
"Ibn-Khazem saw the contradictions between the Qur'an and the Gospels. One obvious example being the Qur'anic text `They slew him not and they crucified him not' Surah 4:156. `Since the Qur'an must be true,' Ibn- Khazem argued, `it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians.' His argument was not based on historical facts, but purely on his own reasoning and on his wish to safeguard the truth of the Qur'an. I. DI MATTEO, (`Il "takhrif" od alterazione della Bibbia secondo i musulmani', Bessarione 38 (1922) 64-111; 223-260; `Le preteze contradizzioni della S. Scrittura secondo Ibn-Hazm', Bessarione 39 (1923) 77-127, E. FRITSCH, op. cit., p. 66.)"

"Nothing could stop him from pursuing this accusation, it seemed the easiest way to attack the opponents. `If we prove the falsehood of their books, they lose the arguments they take from them.' (IBN KHAZEM, Kitab al-fasl fi'l-milah wa'l ahwa'l nikhal, II,6; E. FRITSCH, op cit., p.55) and this led to him eventually making the cynical statement `The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which Allah has left intact as argument against them.' ( IBN KHAZEM, ibid.; E. FRITSCH, op. cit, p. 64)"
 
"Later writers took up the same reasoning, enlarged it and embellished it. The falsification of the Bible was thus asserted by Salikh Ibn-al-Khusain (died 1200AD), Ahmad at-Qarafi (died 1285AD), Sa'id Ibn-Khasan (died 1320AD), Muhammad Ibn-Abi-Talib (died 1327AD), Ibn-Taimija (died 1328AD) and many others. From then on it has become a fixed ingredient of Muslim apologetics."

http://Source:%20www.danielpipes.org/comments/138007 - Source: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/138007

Theological Implications of the Doctrine:

If God was either unable or unwilling to keep His Word from corruption, then He is not God. If He was not able to keep His Word from corruption then He is not Omnipotent and thus not God. If He was unwilling to keep His Word from Corruption then His attributes of Veracity and Immutability are compromised and He is not God:
 
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.Isaiah 40:8

Historical Implications of the Doctrine:

The historical implications of this doctrine are huge. The Bible is by far the most well attested book of antiquity. The manuscript evidence is much stronger than any other ancient writing. Thus to throw out the Bible as corrupted is to throw out the writings of: Homer, Virgil, Tacitus, Josephus, Julius Caesar, Ovid, Virgil, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristotle, Suetonius, etc., basically all of Ancient History.

Thus, Ibn Hazm's doctrine of Biblical Corruption makes no sense. It should be rejected by the honest Muslim. It is an impediment to the necessary confrontation of the critical question:

What is the real reason why the Quran and the Bible disagree on most major doctrines?



Replies:
Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 06 November 2010 at 1:37am
Greetings and welcome.

Interesting post. I would love to do a write up but will do when I have more time.




-------------
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 06 November 2010 at 3:05am

  To Egwpisteuw

 I think you donot know that your own Bible contradicts itself.

 For example:

 It is written in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+4&version=NIV - Mark 4:39-40 that Jesus firstly stopped the storm then he rebuked the disciples while http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+8&version=NIV - Matthew 8:26 says that firstly he rebuked the disciples then he stopped the storm.

 It is called clear cut chronological contradiction.Such type of contradiction you cannot find in the Holy Quran.

 May be chronological contradiction insignificant in the eyes of some christians  but following verses prove it does:

 Psalm 33:4 "For the word of the LORD is right and true; he is faithful in all he does."

 
Psalm 119:160 "All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal."

 If the Bible is the word of God, every word should be true. But, with this chronological contradiction, only 1 chronological order can be right while other has to be false, which shows these chronological contradictions contradict these 2 verses above, which proves these contradictions do affect Christian doctrine & the Bible is not God's word.

 
 


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 06 November 2010 at 7:12am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

 I think you donot know that your own Bible contradicts itself.
Mansoor, Let me be honest here. Although I am new to this forum, I am not new to debating Muslims. I know that one of the main stratagems of Muslim Apologetics is to combine the Biblical Mandate to defend the faith:
 
always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you 1 Pet 3:15
 
with the fact that such a defense takes time, research, and effort. Thus, I like to call this "the Bible verse shell game stratagem" i.e.,
 
When confronted with an argument that you cannot answer, throw out Bible verses that seem to conflict and thus put your Christian opponent on the defensive and thereby change the subject. If he answers your first Bible verse question, keep throwing out more and try to weary him.
 
I fully believe and would stake my life on the fact that every supposed Bible difficulty can indeed be answered as Jesus himself assures us:
 
"the Scripture cannot be broken" John 10:35
 
However, my goal in this thread is to drill down on the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption itself. I find this doctrine totally untenable and illogical, and yet it has become the very cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics. Why?
 
I believe the answer to this question is that Ibn Hazm saved Islam. Islam could never exist in the modern world where I can go on-line and pull up an electronic copy of the Quran in my native language and compare it with an electronic copy of the Bible in my native language and see the contradictions in almost every major doctrine, but that the Bible is the older book, and that the Quran says it confirms the Bible (Surah 3:3 and many others).
 
Thus the only way that Islam can exist today is with the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption--however, this doctrine makes no sense:
 
Why was there no mention of this doctrine for the first 400 years of Islam?
 
Why would God ever allow His Word to become corrupted?
 
Where do Muslims get the authority to attack the Bible? I don't find this anywhere in the Quran.
 
I have never encountered a Muslim who can answer these questions. I do not believe they can be answered by Muslims.


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 06 November 2010 at 7:29am

 To Egwpisteuw

 Topic:List of Biblical verses not included in modern translation.

 
 There are various Biblical verses which are present in KJV but absent from other Biblical translations such as NIV.

 Most modern textual scholars consider these verses interpolations.

 In the New International Version, the following verses are absent from the main text, but have been translated for inclusion in the footnotes.These verses exist mainly in KJV.

 Matthew 17:21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting (KJV)

 Matthew 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost (KJV)

 
Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation (KJV)

 Mark 7:16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear (KJV)

 Mark 9:44/ Mark 9:46 Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched (KJV)

 Mark 16:9-20 The short Gospel according to Mark does not include the resurrection and ascension of Jesus, 12 verses. The long Gospel according to Mark includes these 12 verses!!

 Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses (KJV)

 Mark 15:28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, "And he was numbered with the transgressors (KJV)

 Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left (KJV)

 Luke 23:17 For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast (KJV)

 John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had (KJV)

 John 7:53 to 8:11 The story of the woman that was caught in Adultery does not exist. Old and best Greek copies do not have these verses?!

 Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (KJV)

 
Acts 15:34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still (KJV)

 Acts 24:7 But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands (KJV)

 Acts 28:29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves (KJV)

 Roman 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen (KJV)

  The serious question about the above deleted verses is: Who added them in the beginning? And why? There are big sections that added in Mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53 to 8:11. These are clear evidence that the Church has tampered with the New Testament.

 


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 06 November 2010 at 9:08am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

The cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics to Christians is the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption.  However, most Muslims:

1. Do not know the history of this doctrine.

2. Have never thought through the theological implications of this doctrine.

3. Have never thought through the historical implications of this doctrine.

In this thread, I would like to discuss these issues.

History of the Doctrine:

Ibn Hazm (aka Ibn Khazem) was the first Muslim to posit the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption in the 11th century AD.  Thus for the first four centuries of Islamic history this doctrine did not exist. This is in keeping with a literal grammatical reading of the Quran which claims to be " a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture" Surah 10:37

However, Ibn Hazm noticed that the Quran does not live up to the standard which it proclaims:
 
"Ibn-Khazem saw the contradictions between the Qur'an and the Gospels. One obvious example being the Qur'anic text `They slew him not and they crucified him not' Surah 4:156. `Since the Qur'an must be true,' Ibn- Khazem argued, `it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians.' His argument was not based on historical facts, but purely on his own reasoning and on his wish to safeguard the truth of the Qur'an. I. DI MATTEO, (`Il "takhrif" od alterazione della Bibbia secondo i musulmani', Bessarione 38 (1922) 64-111; 223-260; `Le preteze contradizzioni della S. Scrittura secondo Ibn-Hazm', Bessarione 39 (1923) 77-127, E. FRITSCH, op. cit., p. 66.)"

"Nothing could stop him from pursuing this accusation, it seemed the easiest way to attack the opponents. `If we prove the falsehood of their books, they lose the arguments they take from them.' (IBN KHAZEM, Kitab al-fasl fi'l-milah wa'l ahwa'l nikhal, II,6; E. FRITSCH, op cit., p.55) and this led to him eventually making the cynical statement `The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which Allah has left intact as argument against them.' ( IBN KHAZEM, ibid.; E. FRITSCH, op. cit, p. 64)"
 
"Later writers took up the same reasoning, enlarged it and embellished it. The falsification of the Bible was thus asserted by Salikh Ibn-al-Khusain (died 1200AD), Ahmad at-Qarafi (died 1285AD), Sa'id Ibn-Khasan (died 1320AD), Muhammad Ibn-Abi-Talib (died 1327AD), Ibn-Taimija (died 1328AD) and many others. From then on it has become a fixed ingredient of Muslim apologetics."

http://Source:%20www.danielpipes.org/comments/138007 - Source: http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/138007

Theological Implications of the Doctrine:

If God was either unable or unwilling to keep His Word from corruption, then He is not God. If He was not able to keep His Word from corruption then He is not Omnipotent and thus not God. If He was unwilling to keep His Word from Corruption then His attributes of Veracity and Immutability are compromised and He is not God:
 
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.Isaiah 40:8

Historical Implications of the Doctrine:

The historical implications of this doctrine are huge. The Bible is by far the most well attested book of antiquity. The manuscript evidence is much stronger than any other ancient writing. Thus to throw out the Bible as corrupted is to throw out the writings of: Homer, Virgil, Tacitus, Josephus, Julius Caesar, Ovid, Virgil, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristotle, Suetonius, etc., basically all of Ancient History.

Thus, Ibn Hazm's doctrine of Biblical Corruption makes no sense. It should be rejected by the honest Muslim. It is an impediment to the necessary confrontation of the critical question:

What is the real reason why the Quran and the Bible disagree on most major doctrines?


To be honest and frank, I heard of this so-called Doctrine of Biblical Corruption by Ibne Hazm only today. I didn't even know who this Ibne Hazm was.

How did Ibn Hazm come to the conclusion that the Bible was corrupted or forged? I am sure that he concluded that through Qur'aan, because being a Muslim, he must have read the accusations in Qur'aan.

When I read Qur'aan for the first time, it fired my imagination and I sat down reading the Christian Bible and compared the Old Testament with the Jewish Tanakh. I found that verses in the Old Testament had been forged.

And during my studies of the New Testament, I found that verses were indeed forged.

Please take a look at my post no:5 on this thread and let me have your comments on what I presented to Douggg.

Topic: Israel born in a single day

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17685

I do not trust Daniel Pipes, Robert Spencer, Sam Shamoun and other polemic Christians, who willfully misquote, misinform and misreport.

Qur'aan does not even mention the words Bible, the Old Testament and the New Testament. It refers only to the Torah that was given to Moses and the injeel, which was given to Jesus by Allah, the LORD Almighty.

So, naturally the New Testament is definitely not the Injeel as it was given by the Church, not the LORD Almighty.

And when Qur'aan refers to the Torah and the Injeel or simply talks about the past scriptures, it refers to only the truth that went before Qur'aan.

Thus Qur'aan does not say or verify that everything in the OT and the NT, is correct.

For example, it is generally believed that the 1st five books of the OT or the Jewish Tanakh form the Torah. How could Moses have written Joshua? Joshua was definitely not written by Moses. Right?

My point is that it was not only Ibne Hazm, who came up with the criticism. It was Qur'aan that had pointed out the corruption and forgeries.

Please let me have your comments on the forgery in Hebrews. 



-------------
Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 07 November 2010 at 2:14am

Originally posted by BMZ

To be honest and frank, I heard of this so-called Doctrine of Biblical Corruption by Ibne Hazm only today. I didn't even know who this Ibne Hazm was.

Most Muslims do not, and I find this shocking. Muslims have made this doctrine a cornerstone of their religion, and spend tons of time and effort attacking the Bible, yet they have never taken the time  to study the History of the Doctrine--a history that is very sordid indeed.

Additionally, Muslims have not thought through the horrible implications of this doctrine.  A corrupted Bible leads to Atheism not Islam. It means that God's attributes are compromised--that God Himself is corrupted.

Why would I worship a God that revealed His Word and then let it become corrupted by man? Either He was not able to keep it from becoming corrupted or He was unwilling. Either way such a God is certainly not worthy of worship is He?

Why would God not overrule man and preserve His Word?

How can an eternal God create scripture that is not eternal?

How  can a God of Justice allow mankind to live without reliable scriptures for the entire time period prior to the 7th century AD? How can that be fair to those who lived during that time period?

Originally posted by BMZ

How did Ibn Hazm come to the conclusion that the Bible was corrupted or forged? I am sure that he concluded that through Qur'aan, because being a Muslim, he must have read the accusations in Qur'aan.

Originally posted by BMZ

My point is that it was not only Ibne Hazm, who came up with the criticism. It was Qur'aan that had pointed out the corruption and forgeries.

Ibn Hazm reasoned as follows:

1. The Quran must be true

2. The Quran contradicts the Bible yet it says it confirms the Bible

3. The Quran says the Bible is to be respected

4. Therefore the present text of the Bible must have been corrupted

Of course the problem here is that he started with a faulty assumption. The obvious solution to the problem is that the Quran is not true. Thus, to avoid this conclusion, Ibn Hazm disingenuously invented the Doctrine of Bible Corruption by pulling it out of thin air.

Also, there are no accusations in the Quran that say the Bible has been corrupted. The verses that are commonly adduced to prove this do not mean this at all.

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Topic:List of Biblical verses not included in modern translation.
 
Most modern textual scholars consider these verses interpolations.

Originally posted by BMZ

I found that verses in the Old Testament had been forged.

And during my studies of the New Testament, I found that verses were indeed forged.

Please let me have your comments on the forgery in Hebrews.


Again, my purpose in this thread is to discuss the Theology, Logic, and History of the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption. These are critical issues for Muslims to discuss and understand. To bring in Bible difficulties here would not be appropriate and would short circuit the higher level of discussion that I am proposing.

Originally posted by BMZ

Please take a look at my post no:5 on this thread and let me have your comments on what I presented to Douggg.

Topic: Israel born in a single day

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17685 - http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17685

I will comment on this within that thread.



Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 07 November 2010 at 3:18am

 To Egwpisteuw

 Yes Quran confirms that Jesus is a Prophet of Allah and Quran also confirms that Jesus is a Messiah meaning Christ.Quran confirms that Jesus performed many many miracles.Quran also confirms the Jesus's miraculous birth.Quran also confirms that Jesus was given Injil but at the same time Quran also points out the errors and mistakes in the Bible.It should also be noted that Quran never use the word Bible but it uses the word injil.

 Let's take an example,All the Christians and their scriptures say that Jesus was crucified and then he raised from the dead but the Quran corrects this error by saying that Jesus was not crucified(Surah 4:157).So Quran is a criteria or scale to judge wrong and right.What is confirmed by the Quran it is right and what is not confirmed by the Quran it is wrong.

 Thats why Quran says in Surah 3:3(the verse that you also quoted):

 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

 So Quran when attest the previous scriptures at the same time it also corrects the previous scriptures,points out their errors and mistakes.

 Then you said that
Why would God ever allow His Word to become corrupted?

 It was not God who allow the corruption.God never said that do the corruption in my scriptures.You cannot question the God.It was their people who did it not God.It was the responsibility of the people to protect the word of God from any kind of corruption but when they failed in doing so then God send another Prophet,Prophet Muhammad, with the last and final revelation the Holy Quran but at that time God decided that he himself will protect the Quran not his people because Quran is not for a specific period of time and for a specific nation it is for every nation and it is last and final there is neither any prophet after Muhammad nor any scripture will reveal after Quran so thats why Quran is directly protected by God himself.

 So Quran confirms what is accurate and reliable in the scriptures that you possess today and also specify the errors in these scriptures.

 

 

 

 


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 07 November 2010 at 11:42am

Mansoor, I totally disagree with your interpretation of Surah 3:3. You are guilty of eisegesis or the interpretation of a text  by reading into it one's own ideas. You are reading into this text the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption where it was never intended. Surah 3:3 subordinates the Quran to the older revelation, the Bible, just as Surah 10:94 does:

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee Surah 10:94

Surah 10:94 is parallel to this verse in the Bible:

Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

This is the pattern as God intends it: When someone claims to have new revelation, it must be compared to the prior revelation. If it conflicts, then the new revelation is to be discarded.

Ibn Hazm went through this exercise but he violated the rules. He made the older revelation subordinate to the newer revelation--and this was his great error--an error that is still extant in Islam today and which must be rooted out.

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

It was not God who allow the corruption.God never said that do the corruption in my scriptures.You cannot question the God.It was their people who did it not God.It was the responsibility of the people to protect the word of God from any kind of corruption..

But, Mansoor, you totally misunderstand what God's Word is. Take a look at Psalm 138:2:

"for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

The Hebrew word for name is  שֵׁם (shem). This word has a very special meaning in the Hebrew. It is "THE NAME", "the celebrated name of God"," A designation for God", It represents God's renown, His Glory, His reputation, His fame. It is a title for God. The Jews use it in place of the sacred tetragrammaton יְהֹוָה (Yahweh).

Thus it represents God Himself and yet God says His Word is "above His name":

"Above all thy name - Above all else that thou hast done; above all the other manifestations of thyself to me or to the world. The word name here would refer properly to all that God had done to make himself known - since it is by the name that we designate or distinguish anyone; and, thus understood, the meaning would be, that the word of God - the revelation which he has made of himself and of his gracious purposes to mankind - is superior in clearness, and in importance, to all the other manifestations which he has made of himself; all that can be known of him in his works." Barnes Notes on Psalm 138:2

Thus if God allowed His Word to become corrupted, He allowed Himself to become corrupted and is not God.



Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 08 November 2010 at 5:28am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

Mansoor, I totally disagree with your interpretation of Surah 3:3. You are guilty of eisegesis or the interpretation of a text  by reading into it one's own ideas. You are reading into this text the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption where it was never intended. Surah 3:3 subordinates the Quran to the older revelation,

 Where it is written in Surah 3:3 that Quran should subordinate to the older revelation?

 Let me quote the verse again,it says "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)"

 Notice that Allah states in this verse that the Quran has been sent as a Criterion. When one has a criterion then one judges according to it.Hence Muslims are to judge the Bible according to the Criterion.That which is attested by the Quran (The Criterion) that is accepted by the Muslims as to be the Word of God in the Bible. That what is corrected, we consider it to be a human fabrication.

Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

the Bible, just as Surah 10:94 does:

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee Surah 10:94

Surah 10:94 is parallel to this verse in the Bible:

Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

 Surah 10 was revealed into Mecca.Maulana Maududi comments on Surah 10 verse 94

 "Though these words were addressed to the Holy Prophet, they were meant for those who expressed doubts about his Message. As regards the reference to the people of the Book, it is because they possessed the Knowledge of the Scriptures, whereas the common people of Arabia lacked this, and were, therefore, strangers to the voice of the Quran. It was also expected that their just and pious scholars would testify that its Message was the same as that of the Scriptures of the former Prophets"

Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

This is the pattern as God intends it: When someone claims to have new revelation, it must be compared to the prior revelation. If it conflicts, then the new revelation is to be discarded.

 New revelation was necessary due to following reasons:

 - Previous revelations were only for a specific nation and for a specific period of time.

 - Previous revelations were not in their original form,original teachings of Prophets were lost or corrupt over time

 but Quran doesnot conflict with original teachings of Moses and Christ.

 Further Quran also replace the previous revelations.Surah 11:17 "Prior to this (Quran) , the book of Moses served as a guide, and was a blessing...

 And Surah 46:12 "Prior to this,the book of Moses was the guide and mercy. This book, (the Qur’an) is in the Arabic language and it confirms and validates (the book of Moses)"

 Torah was the guide but prior to the Quran.These verses suggest clearly that the Quran has superseded the Torah.So there is no question of subordination of Quran to previous revelations.

Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

Ibn Hazm went through this exercise but he violated the rules. He made the older revelation subordinate to the newer revelation--and this was his great error--an error that is still extant in Islam today and which must be rooted out.

 Well Ibn Hazm was not a first person who object the Bible.Quran itself objects the Bible.Even Ibn Abbas,companion of Prophet Muhammad,clearly said:

 Narrated Ubaidullah:"Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

It was not God who allow the corruption.God never said that do the corruption in my scriptures.You cannot question the God.It was their people who did it not God.It was the responsibility of the people to protect the word of God from any kind of corruption..

Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

But, Mansoor, you totally misunderstand what God's Word is. Take a look at Psalm 138:2:

"for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

The Hebrew word for name is  שֵׁם (shem). This word has a very special meaning in the Hebrew. It is "THE NAME", "the celebrated name of God"," A designation for God", It represents God's renown, His Glory, His reputation, His fame. It is a title for God. The Jews use it in place of the sacred tetragrammaton יְהֹוָה (Yahweh).

Thus it represents God Himself and yet God says His Word is "above His name":

"Above all thy name - Above all else that thou hast done; above all the other manifestations of thyself to me or to the world. The word name here would refer properly to all that God had done to make himself known - since it is by the name that we designate or distinguish anyone; and, thus understood, the meaning would be, that the word of God - the revelation which he has made of himself and of his gracious purposes to mankind - is superior in clearness, and in importance, to all the other manifestations which he has made of himself; all that can be known of him in his works." Barnes Notes on Psalm 138:2

Thus if God allowed His Word to become corrupted, He allowed Himself to become corrupted and is not God.



 Well i am not expert in Hebrew but i clear my point from Quranic perspective.

 


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 09 November 2010 at 5:23am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

 Narrated Ubaidullah:"Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"

To be fair, I do acknowledge that this is a pre-Ibn Hazm statement of Biblical Corruption. If you have more, please adduce them.
 
However, do you not agree that it is in direct contradiction to Surah 10:94:
 
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee:
 
And nowhere in the Quran does it say that the Bible is corrupted.
 
 
 


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 09 November 2010 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

 - Previous revelations were only for a specific nation and for a specific period of time.
Mansoor, you seem to be arguing for Rabshakeh's god:
 
33Has any one of the gods of the nations delivered his land from the hand of the king of Assyria?

 34Where are the gods of Hamath and Arpad? Where are the gods of Sepharvaim, Hena and Ivvah? Have they delivered Samaria from my hand?

 35'Who among all the gods of the lands have delivered their land from my hand, that the LORD should deliver Jerusalem from my hand?'"2 Kings 18:33-35

The revelation of The God is for ALL people, nations, and times:
 
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6
 
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:12
 
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 3:11
 
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28
 
Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.  Col 3:11
 
Because of the arrogance of Rabshakeh's statement that the Lord God is a puny regional God, exactly what you are saying, He killed 185,000 Assryians:
 
 35Then it happened that night that the angel of the LORD went out and struck 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians; and when men rose early in the morning, behold, all of them were dead. 2 Kings 19:35


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 15 November 2010 at 3:59pm

Great topic! It’s really going to expose which book is REALLY from the Most High and which one is not!

Originally posted by BMZ

How did Ibn Hazm come to the conclusion that the Bible was corrupted or forged? I am sure that he concluded that through Qur'aan, because being a Muslim, he must have read the accusations in Qur'aan.

The fact that the Quran was used against the Bible goes completely against nature itself. The Bible is the Quran’s rival and seemingly the Quran’s enemy because it disagrees with many of the minor and major events in the Bible. Secondly, Muslims believe that Allah somehow failed to protect and preserve his word although he and Muhammad said he would protect it. Would you believe the word of a thief that broke into your home? Would you use that thief as your eye-witness? Would you believe any word that thief says, of course not because he is the one in question. In making any defense you cannot use circular reasoning to prove a point. You cannot use the Quran in defense of the Quran, especially since the Quran acknowledges the trueness of the Holy Scriptures not the other way around.       

Originally posted by BMZ

So, naturally the New Testament is definitely not the Injeel as it was given by the Church, not the LORD Almighty.

Wrong. Historical, archeological and Scriptural evidence points to the trueness of the Gospel and that it was the same Gospel that Muhammad himself had possession of. So Muslims would have to prove that Muhammad had something other than the Bible or NT in his possession, although the Bible was completed way before Muhammad was even born.

No one as of yet came up with any Historical or Archeological proof to prove me wrong, just accusations, allegations and links mainly from Muslims sources. 

Originally posted by BMZ

When I read Qur'aan for the first time, it fired my imagination and I sat down reading the Christian Bible and compared the Old Testament with the Jewish Tanakh. I found that verses in the Old Testament had been forged.

I haven’t which is neither here or there. Are you then say the DSS are forged, If so by who? The (Dead Sea Scroll) is available.

Most importantly why does Jesus tell his followers to read them if they were corrupted? Perhaps Muhammad was headed in the right direction at first when he said in them was guidance.

Originally posted by BMZ

I do not trust Daniel Pipes, Robert Spencer, Sam Shamoun and other polemic Christians, who willfully misquote, misinform and misreport.
    

For every action there is a reaction. It’s only until Ibn Hazm and now modern day Muslims began to bash Christians. Regardless though, none of these men are God’s spokesmen.

Originally posted by BMZ

For example, it is generally believed that the 1st five books of the OT or the Jewish Tanakh form the Torah. How could Moses have written Joshua? Joshua was definitely not written by Moses. Right?

Joshua wrote Joshua. He had been a very close associate of Moses throughout the previous 40 years in the wilderness. He had been “the minister of Moses from his young manhood on.

 

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

So Quran when attest the previous scriptures at the same time it also corrects the previous scriptures,points out their errors and mistakes.

Again, your main defense to prove the Bible’s corruption is the Quran but the Quran is the main book that is in question and on trail based on the assumption that the Bible is corrupt. It is the Quran that came 600 or more years after the Bible was completed. Therefore, the burden of proof is on the Quran. You are using circular reasoning (the Quran) to establish a point. Try using an historical or archeological approach to solidly prove the Bibles corruption and what it should say not an allegation or an accusation from a modern day scholar.  

Secondly, the Holy Scriptures will always be in disagreement to your Quran because they are from two different sources. Furthermore, the Quran is the first book for Muslims where as the Holy Scriptures is the first book for mankind.

 [quote=Mansoor_ali]  but Quran doesnot conflict with original teachings of Moses and Christ.

In order for this statement to be taken seriously, do Muslims have some original teachings or even a copy of the original teachings of Moses and Christ to make the one you NOW have invalid, yes or no? Did the Jews have the original teachings or even a copy of the original teachings when they converted over to Islam during Muhammad’s time, that way you can compare one with the other, yes or no?

If you answered no to anyone of these questions then you are dealing with a mirage and a mirage can be anything you want it to be except reality.    

If you answered no to both of these questions then you are definitely dealing with an insidious and diabolical lie!   



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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 16 November 2010 at 11:05am

 To Egwpisteuw
 
 To be fair, I do acknowledge that this is a pre-Ibn Hazm statement of Biblical Corruption. If you have more, please adduce them.

 ok
 
However, do you not agree that it is in direct contradiction to Surah 10:94:
 
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee:

 Here is reply by brother Bassam to Surah 10:94 so i think you must read his reply.Click http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_that_the_qur_an_orders_the_prophet_and_doubting_believers_to_refer_to_the_christians_and_jews_for_consultation_ - http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_that_the_qur_an_orders_the_prophet_and_doubting_believers_to_refer_to_the_christians_and_jews_for_consultation_
 
And nowhere in the Quran does it say that the Bible is corrupted.

 Well if you read Surah 4:157 it clearly denies any crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.And we all know that crucifixion and resurrection is mentioned into the Bible so Quran speaks of Biblical corruption in Surah 4:157.
 
 
 



Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 17 November 2010 at 5:45am

 To Egwpisteuw

 You quoted John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me"

 Yes i agree with this verse.Jesus says "he is the way to God".Every Prophet during his time was the way to God.At the time of Moses he was the way to God.At the time of Noah he was the way to God.At the time of Jesus he was the way to God but today it is the time of Muhammad so today he is the way to God.What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the way to God's mercy" That is his job.That is what a Prophet does.
The above statement is quite clear. It is in exact conformance to the teachings of the Qur'an. In the Qur'an we are told how God sent messengers to all tribes and nations.


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 17 November 2010 at 9:55am

 Advise to Egwpisteuw and others

 Well you know in Islam the most reliable source is The Holy Quran.So i personally suggest you to read the Quran first.There are many translations of the Quran in English language.So i think you read the commentary of the Quran written by one of the greatest scholars of the Islam in modern era Maulana Maududi.

 Maududi's commentary "Towards Understanding the Quran" can be read in English language here.Click http://www.tafheem.net - http://www.tafheem.net

 The best thing about his commentary is Maulana also described the background of every Surahs(chapters) so that you understand Surahs very well.

 The second source after Quran which is highly respected by majority of Muslims is Hadith.Hadith are narrations concerning the words and deeds of our beloved Prophet Muhammad.

 There are different types of Hadith such as some Hadith are authentic,some are weak,some are fabricated etc.If you want to get more information about Hadith then you can visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith

 So i recommend you to read the Hadith as well.This site contains large amount of Hadith.Click to read the Hadith: http://ahadith.co.uk - http://ahadith.co.uk

 In the end i want to recommend another website about Islam which i think is important to visit.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/ - This site contains the most scholarly articles written by any Islamic apologetics website. They focus mostly on refuting the so called historical errors to be found in the Qur'an. They also have excellent articles on the preservation of the Qur'an and Bible, refutations to Qur'an borrowing theories and much more.

 Thanks a Lot.


 

 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 18 November 2010 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

 I think you donot know that your own Bible contradicts itself.
Mansoor, Let me be honest here. Although I am new to this forum, I am not new to debating Muslims. I know that one of the main stratagems of Muslim Apologetics is to combine the Biblical Mandate to defend the faith:
 
always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you 1 Pet 3:15
 
with the fact that such a defense takes time, research, and effort. Thus, I like to call this "the Bible verse shell game stratagem" i.e.,
 
When confronted with an argument that you cannot answer, throw out Bible verses that seem to conflict and thus put your Christian opponent on the defensive and thereby change the subject. If he answers your first Bible verse question, keep throwing out more and try to weary him.
 
I fully believe and would stake my life on the fact that every supposed Bible difficulty can indeed be answered as Jesus himself assures us:
 
"the Scripture cannot be broken" John 10:35
 
However, my goal in this thread is to drill down on the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption itself. I find this doctrine totally untenable and illogical, and yet it has become the very cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics. Why?
 
I believe the answer to this question is that Ibn Hazm saved Islam. Islam could never exist in the modern world where I can go on-line and pull up an electronic copy of the Quran in my native language and compare it with an electronic copy of the Bible in my native language and see the contradictions in almost every major doctrine, but that the Bible is the older book, and that the Quran says it confirms the Bible (Surah 3:3 and many others).
 
Thus the only way that Islam can exist today is with the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption--however, this doctrine makes no sense:
 
Why was there no mention of this doctrine for the first 400 years of Islam?
 
Why would God ever allow His Word to become corrupted?
 
Where do Muslims get the authority to attack the Bible? I don't find this anywhere in the Quran.
 
I have never encountered a Muslim who can answer these questions. I do not believe they can be answered by Muslims.
 
 
Dear Eg,
welcome to the forum, hope we all benefit from what we learn here.
You bring up something that is very intersting but you have to undertand some basic facts.
In its present condition, what we now know as the Bible, is a compilation of books God sent over thousands of years. Right there is the answer to one of your questions and curosity that "why would God send a revelation and not protect it". If you see here, Moses recieved revelations, David recieved revelations, so did Jesus (may God's peace be upon them all)all in different times, some hundreds or in more than a thousand years apart in some cases. Do you get it? Why would God send or repeat His guidance so many times? in fact God did sent many more prophets with revelations simply because there were people among prople who were of authority, who wnated to control, keep the power?? who used, interpreted, substracted, added or altered that revelations to fit their own agendas.  They were void of faith, full of greed and disbelief, power hungry and you name it!
It was a test of trust and believe from God that they failed by doing such a thing fro some wordly benefit.
It was only the love and mercy that God sent His revelations again and agian, so those who believe in Him find it to guidance and to salvation, not that God could not protect His word, He could if He wanted, but then how would people were tested? So those, as we see even now, reinterpret God's revelations to fit their agendas and purpose, and God is watching and recording their acts, and they have only until the Day of Accountability to do so, or come to the truth and reality, and ask God's forgiveness, and seek His true guidance which He has provided for All, in the Glorious Quran.
 
As a Muslim Quran teaches us that God's prophets like David and Jesus (pbuh) recieved God's revelation to guide people. Do we have that revelation as pure as when it was sent? and does "the Bible" contain pure word of God? That is upto a person to decide for themselves. When I examined them truthfully and honestly my conclusion was that yes it has part God's word in it, but their is so much inconsistencies in it as well, which makes it very difficult to trust as such (as pure word of God). Plus, reading about its compilation and history written by scholars here in the West confirms the problems with it. And last but not least, we have God in the Quran telling us that people altered it.
 
I respect you and your belief and the Bible, but only after reading it myself, I came to know the truth about it. Which is simple that it contradicts on the three most important issues.
1-God
2-Jesus
3-Salvation
It is my challenge to you or to anyone who can prove that it (the Bible) does not contradict on those issus.
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 06 December 2010 at 9:37am

My question to modern day Muslims is as follows;

1) Who

2) When (Before or after Muhammad received it)

2) Where

3) Why &

4) How

. . . was God’s word (The Torah, Psalms & Injeel or OT & NT) corrupted?

If corrupted why would Moses and Jesus;

A) Support the scriptures

B) Fulfill the scriptures

C) Command us to follow the scriptures

D) Bless mankind by means of the scriptures

. . . if someone can answer some or all of these above questions to the best of their ability that would help anyone who’s interested.

Deuteronomy 31:9, 24-26

“As soon as Moses had finished writing the words of this law in a book,” he commanded the Levites, saying: “Taking this book of the law, you must place it at the side of the ark of the covenant of Jehovah your God, and it must serve as a witness there against you.”

Unlike other ancient books, Israel acknowledged this record of God’s dealings and did not deny these facts. Since the contents of the books in many instances were a discredit to the nation generally, the people might well have been expected to reject them if possible, but this never seems to have been an issue.

Like Moses, the Priestly Class were used by God both to preserve these written commandments and to teach them to the people. When the Ark was brought into Solomon’s temple (1027 B.C.E.), nearly 500 years after Moses began writing the Pentateuch, the two stone tablets were still in the Ark (1Ki 8:9), and 385 years after that, when “the very book of the law” was found in the house of Jehovah during Josiah’s 18th year (642 B.C.E.), the same high regard for it was still shown. (2Ki 22:3, 8-20) Similarly, there was “great rejoicing” when, after the return from Babylonian exile, Ezra read from the book of the Law during an eight-day assembly.—Ne 8:5-18.

The most conclusive testimony on the canonicity of the Hebrew Scriptures is the unimpeachable word of Jesus Christ and the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures. If there was not a definite collection of Holy Writings known and recognized by them and those to whom they spoke and wrote, they would not have used such expressions as “the Scriptures” (Mt 22:29; Ac 18:24); “the holy Scriptures” (Ro 1:2); “the holy writings” (2Ti 3:15); the “Law,” often meaning the whole body of Scripture (Joh 10:34; 12:34; 15:25); “the Law and the Prophets,” used as a generic term meaning the entire Hebrew Scriptures (Mt 5:17; 7:12; 22:40; Lu 16:16). When Paul referred to “the Law,” he quoted from Isaiah.—1Co 14:21; Isa 28:11.

 

Luke 24:27, 44

And commencing at Moses and all the Prophets he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures. He (Jesus) now said to them: “These are my words which I spoke to YOU while I was yet with YOU, that all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled.”

In fact, as we can see Jesus constantly directed his hearers to the Scriptures. He frequently introduced an important point by saying: “It is written.” (Matt. 4:4; 21:13) In his recorded words, he quoted directly from or referred indirectly to over half of the books of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Would Jesus support the previous scriptures if they were corrupted?  It’s very obvious they were not!

Fact: The Bible was never seriously question until many, many, many centuries later after. For that very reason the Bible became the Quran’s rivalry and therefore disagrees on many minor and major teachings.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-bible-not-corrupted-early-muslims.htm - Earliest Muslims did not believed the Bible to be corrupted



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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 18 December 2010 at 10:26am
Once again, Shibbo resorts to repeating the same tired old arguments which have been refuted by many people over and over again.  The guy is not very original.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 23 December 2010 at 8:14am

And as always islam-is-peace? When unable to come up with a clear definitive argument hurl accusations to distract from the questions and your inability to answer them. Okay fine but are you the the fall guy for Islamicity? You tell me that not one person of Islamic faith can answer the questions I asked on this page, not even your moderators who answer other posts? I guess its true; you do pick your battles!

This is truly not a good look for “Islam” and defending your belief.

Greetings



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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 December 2010 at 11:27am
LOL What world are you living in Shibbo?  If anyone has avoided answering questions, it's you!  Your desperate war on Islam is based on flimsy arguments which you repeat over and over again.  Eventually, people will tell get tired of talking to you.  Unlike you, the rest of us have lives.  

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 28 December 2010 at 7:16am
Got it! Wink You are the only spokesman for islamicity and you have no life. You rather argue then answer, nothing has changed.


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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 29 December 2010 at 10:01pm
Hi BMZ
In regards to your knowledge of the Torah - the Book of Joshua is not actually one of the 5 books of the Torah.

In comparing the Tanakh with the OT, how did you do that? Are you a Hebrew speaker to be able to make the comparisons? I hang out with Hebrew speakers all the time - both Jewish and Christian and I have never heard this complaint of OT falsification.

Also I think it is well known the Quaran does not mention the words Bible, OT or NT. But if the Quaran only mentions the Torah when the total Tanakh comprises of the Psalms, the Prophets etc of which Islam accepts,what does the Quaran call those other books ?

Regarding the forgery ? in Hebrews I have replied and still await your response ?

Regards
David


Posted By: Experiential
Date Posted: 30 December 2010 at 2:51am
Hello Mansoor
Gods Blessings on you

Regarding you post dated 17 November. I never had a good feeling about the Hadith and your posts and comments about it don’t make me feel any better. From your link I’ve ascertained the following –

1. The traditions of the life of Muhammad and the early history of Islam were passed down mostly orally for more than a hundred years after Muhammad's death in AD 632. Add this to the fact that Mohamad and the Quaran were 600 years later than the eye witness accounts of the gospels of Jesus, plus now we add extra hundred years.

2. Added to the fact that Caliph Uthman ibn Affan as the first to urge Muslims to write the Qur'an in a fixed form, and to record the hadith with no sources surviving directly from this period and that we are dependent on what later writers tell us about this period, doesn’t do much to add historical credibility or reliability.

3. Also that Uthman's labours were cut short by his assassination - isn’t a good look.

4. Then in terms of hadith being categorized as sound, authentic, weak, or fabricated doesn’t do much to impart a lot of faith.

5. Combine this with there being Shia and Sunni differences in terms of what is acceptable with the hadith.

Over all Im not reassured that the science of hadith is enough to gain its lack of credibility.

This post started as a discussion of what constitutes the basis of truth for the “true Injil”? When I compare the Torah and Tenakh (OT), the Injil (NT), the Talmud (written traditions and commentaries for the Jewish faith), the Quaran and the hadith as far as I see it the hadith comes in last regarding credibility of truth and historical reliability.

When Ive posed the question before about the contradictions in the Quaran about the validity of the Tanakh (OT) and Injil I’ve never had a clear answer but I have had quotes from the hadith that usually go like “The close companion of the prophet said …” Well Im sorry but it doesn’t persuade me.

As mentioned in the past your quotes of Maududi' don’t do much to reassure me either considering he was the Jihadist that said
“It must now be obvious that the objective of the Islamic jihad is to eliminate the rule of an un-Islamic system, and establish in its place an Islamic system of state rule. Islam does not intend to confine his rule to a single state or a hand full of countries. The aim of Islam is to bring about a universal revolution. Although in the initial stages, it is incumbent upon members of the party of Islam to carry out a revolution in the state system of the countries to which they belong; their ultimate objective is none other than world revolution.”

Yes this quote is out of context and apparently its context is for the “good of humanity”, however still this does not reassure me at all.

Regards
David






Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 09 March 2011 at 4:36am
Originally posted by honeto

Why would God send or repeat His guidance so many times?
The revelations in the Bible are not simply repetitions, they are a progressive unfolding of God's plan of salvation for mankind starting with the seed of the woman in Gen 3:15.
 
In every subsequent revelation there is additional color added. For example, the seed would come through the line of Abraham in Gen 12:3, through David's line in Isaiah 11:1, would be born of a virgin in Isaiah 7:14, and would be born in Bethlehem in Micah 5:2 and would be a suffering servant would would solve the sin problem in Isaiah 53, and would be God Himself in Isaiah 9:6.
 
The Quran does not add further color in continuing this progressive revelation from God, it totally and utterly denies it. It comes centuries after the need for written revelation from God had ceased. All had been fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah.
 
Ibn-Hazm realized this. However, to save Islam, he came up with the absurd defense that the Bible was corrupted--a doctrine that yields a God that cannot be God--and makes no sense whatsoever.
 
 


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 March 2011 at 2:57pm
Dear Newbie,
sometimes you need to have a little break between bites in order to enjoy the flavor of what you ar eating as in my opinion part of eating is not to jsut fill the belly but to enjoy the food, and praise it's Creator.
Same way, it is wise to pause between thoughts so we can process them and understand them and eventually benefit from this ability and praise God.
 
I respect the scholars and their opinion, but there is nothing that comes above the word of God, the Quran. Quran clearly states that the previous scriptures including Gospel and Torah were sent by God. The Quran also tells us clearly that they were altered by men.

Al Maidah (5):12 God did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel......(13) their hearts grew hard. They changed the words from their places and forgot a good part of the messsage that was sent them...........

14 From those who call themselves Christians we did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them.........soon will God show them what it is they have done.

15. O people of the Book (Jews and Christians) there hath come to you our Messanger, revealing to you that you used to hide in the book, and passing over much (that is now unneccessary."

There hath come to you from God a new light and a perspicuous Book.

16 Wherewith God guides all who seek His good pleasure, to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness by His will, Unto the light-guideth them to a path that is straight.

We have God Almighty's clear testemony, do we need anyone else's opinion about it? In my opinion NO.

I will give you a few more things that will prove the same in case you don't believe God tellig you the truth through the Quran.
1-Bible, as we know it today does not exist in its original shape and pure form as when God sent it through the prophets.
2-It contradicts within itself. And you and I agree that anything from God would not contradict as God is All knowledgable.
Wait there is another one that comes to mind, there is a verse in the Bible that I can remember that states something you don't like Muslims tell you:

Jeremiah 8:8 (New International Version, ©2011)

 8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
   for we have the law of the LORD,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
   has handled it falsely.

Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 09 March 2011 at 3:22pm
But Honeto, the Quran bases it's own integrity on that of Bible:
 
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee Surah 10:94a
 
And if you ask me, as the Quran commands you to do, what has been revealed in the Quran is NOT a revalation from God--and the Quran and Islam thus fall--due to a lack of internal consistency.
 
 


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 09 March 2011 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

But Honeto, the Quran bases it's own integrity on that of Bible:
 
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee Surah 10:94a
 
And if you ask me, as the Quran commands you to do, what has been revealed in the Quran is NOT a revalation from God--and the Quran and Islam thus fall--due to a lack of internal consistency.
 
 


Perhaps if you took the time to read the verse in context, you would not make this common mistake that many of your Christian brethren make. 

As I have pointed this out so many times before, I will not do so again.  I will leave it to you to go check the verse and read it in the proper context.  Once you do, you will realize that it is not saying what you think it says.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 5:37am
Originally posted by islamispeace

it is not saying what you think it says.
 
Are you denying that the Quran adduces the Bible as a witness to it's veracity? It certainly does in numerous places, just as it should, and just as the New Testament adduces the Old Testament as a witness to it's veracity.
 
However, the difference cannot be more striking. The New Testament goes hand in glove with the Old, to the point where both can be bound into one volume "The Bible."
 
But, the Quran denys all the major doctrines of the Bible. This would be like a defendant in a court case jumping up and shooting the star witness that was to exhonerate him in court--sheer lunacy!


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

Are you denying that the Quran adduces the Bible as a witness to it's veracity? It certainly does in numerous places, just as it should, and just as the New Testament adduces the Old Testament as a witness to it's veracity.
 
However, the difference cannot be more striking. The New Testament goes hand in glove with the Old, to the point where both can be bound into one volume "The Bible."
 
But, the Quran denys all the major doctrines of the Bible. This would be like a defendant in a court case jumping up and shooting the star witness that was to exhonerate him in court--sheer lunacy!


The Quran states very clearly that the previous revelations were corrupted.  he verse you mentioned was quoted out of context.  Did you go back and read it in context as I suggested? 

Your statement that the NT "goes hand in glove with the Old" is purely a fictitious statement.  No where in the OT is Jesus prophesied and nowhere does it teach the trinity belief.  The Quran comes to confirm the truth in the Bible and refute the falsehood.  To Muslims, the Bible has some truth and some falsehood.  Therefore, the conclusion is that it is not the word of God but the words of men, some of which are heretical.  You can try to twist the facts anyway you want to, but the facts still remain facts.  Take my advice: Stick with quoting your own Bible as you are not very good at quoting the Quran nor are you qualified to teach Muslims about their own religion.  Why is this such a common trait among Christians?  They think they can teach others about their own religion!  Clap    


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 March 2011 at 9:17pm
Newbie,
you really are new at this, please don't feel offended by this, it is simple. When God sent Quran people like you questioned it that why we need another book of guidance. So it was said, to go ask those learnt man, the Doctors of Law (Rabbais) who know that it was mentioned in the Scripture about the arrival of a Prophet who God will send to guide humanity.
I hope that helps, let me know.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 11 March 2011 at 4:20am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Stick with quoting your own Bible as you are not very good at quoting the Quran nor are you qualified to teach Muslims about their own religion.  Why is this such a common trait among Christians?  They think they can teach others about their own religion!  Clap    
You are engaging in typical Muslim truth avoidance. The Quran clearly adduces the Bible as a witness to it's veracity. This is proper because any new revelation from God MUST agree with previous revelation from God.
 
The NT agrees with the OT, thus the NT it is a revelation from God, but the Quran does not agree with the NT and the OT, thus it is not a revelation from God.
 
The whole point of this thread is that Ibn-Hazem realized this point, and created the absurd doctrine of Biblical corruption as an apologetic to save Islam.
 
And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Quran) from Allah confirming what is with them [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] Surah 2:89a
 
Originally posted by honeto

Newbie,
you really are new at this, please don't feel offended by this, it is simple. When God sent Quran people like you questioned it that why we need another book of guidance. So it was said, to go ask those learnt man, the Doctors of Law (Rabbais) who know that it was mentioned in the Scripture about the arrival of a Prophet who God will send to guide humanity.
I hope that helps, let me know.
Hasan
 
I don't get offended by Muslims, I know all the tricks, it's form over substance, like calling me newbie. It is really all Muslims have since they have no truth.
 
Again, I ask you as I asked Islamispeace, are you denying that the Quran adduces the Bible as a witness to it's veracity?
 
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Surah 3:3
 
 


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 12 March 2011 at 3:28pm
You are engaging in typical Muslim truth avoidance. The Quran clearly adduces the Bible as a witness to it's veracity. This is proper because any new revelation from God MUST agree with previous revelation from God.


LOL "Typical Muslim truth avoidance".  Right.  Contrary to your claim, the Quran comes to confirm the truth of the original previous revelations and to refute the falsehood that had been added to it by heretics.  The Quran does agree with the Torah teaching that God is one.  This is where, ironically, your New Testament utterly fails for by preaching the foreign belief of the trinity, the New Testament separated itself from the Shema Yisroel. 

The NT agrees with the OT, thus the NT it is a revelation from God, but the Quran does not agree with the NT and the OT, thus it is not a revelation from God.


Just because you say so, does not make it so.  One of the classic examples that the New Testament does not agree with the Old Testament is in the doctrine of the Second Coming.  Both Islam and Christianity affirm that Jesus (pbuh) will return, and yet there is not one verse in the OT which states that the Messiah would come back a second time.  For us Muslims, this is not a problem as we do not rely on the corrupted Bible.  We rely on the Quran and Sunnah.  But, it is a problem for you Christians since you regard the OT as inerrant scripture which does not contradict the NT.  Another example can be seen in how the NT views atonement and how the OT views.  On the other thread, you appealed to Leviticus 17:11, claiming that it states that blood sacrifice is the only way to atone for one's sins (even if it was, it contradicts the NT in that the sacrifice can only be made at the altar in the temple).  This contradicts other verses in the OT which state clearly that repenting is perfectly acceptable:

"Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. " (Isaiah 55:7-8)

You can also read Leviticus 5 which states that one can even use flour if he cannot afford a lamb or pigeons!  [Source: http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=368:testimony-of-scripture&catid=72:scriptural-studies&Itemid=408 - Rabbi Yisroel Blumenthal, "The Testimony of Scripture" ]

Clearly, the Christian assumption that the NT agrees with the OT falls flat when seen in the light of the facts.

The whole point of this thread is that Ibn-Hazem realized this point, and created the absurd doctrine of Biblical corruption as an apologetic to save Islam.


Nothing has been proven.  Every Islamic scholar from the very beginning of Islam believed that the Bible had been corrupted and that the Quran had been sent to correct the heresies and blasphemies.  And modern scholarship strongly supports the belief that the Bible has been changed many times.  Those who deny this are simply lying to themselves.

And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Quran) from Allah confirming what is with them [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] Surah 2:89a


Again, in typical Christian fashion, you jump from verse to verse.  Each time you are refuted, you pick and choose another verse and say "aha! see this verse says such and such..."  If you had taken the time to actually read the Quran instead of copying from non-Muslim websites, you would know that verse 79 refutes your argument:

"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby."

Furthermore, in Sahih Bukhari (9:93:614) we find the following:

"Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:

'Abdullah bin 'Abbas said, "O the group of Muslims! How can you ask the people of the Scriptures about anything while your Book which Allah has revealed to your Prophet contains the most recent news from Allah and is pure and not distorted? Allah has told you that the people of the Scriptures have changed some of Allah's Books and distorted it and wrote something with their own hands and said, 'This is from Allah, so as to have a minor gain for it. Won't the knowledge that has come to you stop you from asking them? No, by Allah, we have never seen a man from them asking you about that (the Book Al-Qur'an ) which has been revealed to you."

It is clear from the above proofs that Islam clearly teaches that the previous revelations had been corrupted.  This belief is corroborated by modern scholarship.



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 13 March 2011 at 4:33am
@Islamispeace Let's cut to the chase here. The Muslim god who is not able to preserve his own scriptures, is an effete, incompetent, impotent, hapless, buffoon who is not worthy of worship: 
 
The true God never allows His Word to become corrupted. It is His Word.
 
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Pslam 138:2
 
Man would like to corrupt God's Word but cannot because God overrules him:
 
5"But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God," 6he is not to honor his father or his mother' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. Matt 15:5-6
 
For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. 2 Cor 2:17

but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor 4:2

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. Rev 22:18-19

You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deut 4:2

Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from it. Deut 12:32

Every word of God has proven to be true. He is a shield to those who come to him for protection
Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar. Prov 30:5-6

As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; Eph 4:14
 
So what you have is man who would like to corrupt God's Word but God who overrules him and preserves His Word. This is the omnipotent, powerful, almighty God who is alone worthy of worship.


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 13 March 2011 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

 
And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Quran) from Allah confirming what is with them [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] Surah 2:89a


 The Quran which is from Allah is confirming the truth that which is with the People of the Book. Over and over again we find that the Noble Quran tells us that it is confirming the truth in the previous revelations. The Quran is speaking the truth about what is with the People of the Book. Therefore it is clear that the Quran is not testifying that the entire Bible is preserved but is only confirming the truth that is with the People of the Book thus naturally correcting the corrupted part.

 
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw



He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Surah 3:3
 
 


 Quote a complete verse

 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).(3:3)

 

 The above verse is referring to the ORIGINAL.It not referring to the man made corrupted version.

 Notice that Allah states in this verse that the Quran has been sent as a Criterion.
When one has a criterion then one judges according to it.So the Quran confirms what was sent down before it by becoming the Criterion to judge.Hence Muslims are to judge the Bible according to the Criterion.That which is attested by the Quran (The Criterion) that is accepted by the Muslims as to be the Word of God in the Bible. That what is corrected, we consider it to be a human fabrication.


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 13 March 2011 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

  Therefore it is clear that the Quran is not testifying that the entire Bible is preserved but is only confirming the truth that is with the People of the Book thus naturally correcting the corrupted part.
 
Nonsense. A god who would allow any part of his word to become corrupted is an effete, incompetent, impotent, hapless, buffoon who is not worthy of worship. As a matter of fact, I could probably take such a weakling god in a fight--why would anyone be foolish enough to worship him? 
 
You see, this is the gaping irreconcilable hole in Muslim theology. It yields a god not worthy of worship.


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 March 2011 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

Originally posted by islamispeace

Stick with quoting your own Bible as you are not very good at quoting the Quran nor are you qualified to teach Muslims about their own religion.  Why is this such a common trait among Christians?  They think they can teach others about their own religion!  Clap    
You are engaging in typical Muslim truth avoidance. The Quran clearly adduces the Bible as a witness to it's veracity. This is proper because any new revelation from God MUST agree with previous revelation from God.
 
The NT agrees with the OT, thus the NT it is a revelation from God, but the Quran does not agree with the NT and the OT, thus it is not a revelation from God.
 
The whole point of this thread is that Ibn-Hazem realized this point, and created the absurd doctrine of Biblical corruption as an apologetic to save Islam.
 
And when there came to them (the Jews), a Book (this Quran) from Allah confirming what is with them [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] Surah 2:89a
 
Originally posted by honeto

Newbie,
you really are new at this, please don't feel offended by this, it is simple. When God sent Quran people like you questioned it that why we need another book of guidance. So it was said, to go ask those learnt man, the Doctors of Law (Rabbais) who know that it was mentioned in the Scripture about the arrival of a Prophet who God will send to guide humanity.
I hope that helps, let me know.
Hasan
 
I don't get offended by Muslims, I know all the tricks, it's form over substance, like calling me newbie. It is really all Muslims have since they have no truth.
 
Again, I ask you as I asked Islamispeace, are you denying that the Quran adduces the Bible as a witness to it's veracity?
 
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Surah 3:3
 
 
Dear Newbie,
please forgive me if you get offended me addressing you as Newbie. the only reason I do that is not to offend you rether to address you becuase you never wrote who you are, what is your name, are you ashamed of using your name, if I may ask?
 
I have given you very clear answer on that and it is in the last quote you wrote in you post.
"confirming what was before it. If you pay attention it says, " what was before it". And as a Muslim of course we believe it was from God. And now also read where the Quran says, as I wrote the quotes before that "they changed" the words.  Dear friend, it is a fact and even many learned Biblical scholars agree to the changes and alterations the Scripture went though. And the Quran confirms that for us, but don't lose faith accepting that reality. God loves us and God will never leave us in despair, and He did not. His Mercy and Love for humanity has come in His guidance for mankind in His Final Word, the Holy Quran. Ask God to open you heart to nothing less but truth and salvation. And you must not offend God by worshipping others beside Him, nor worship anyone or anything other than Him.
 
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 March 2011 at 2:47pm
@Islamispeace Let's cut to the chase here. The Muslim god who is not able to preserve his own scriptures, is an effete, incompetent, impotent, hapless, buffoon who is not worthy of worship: 
 
The true God never allows His Word to become corrupted. It is His Word.


Yet more flawed Christian logic.  What makes you conclude that God was not able to protect His scriptures?  Can't you see that He simply allowed it to happen?  Is it so hard to understand?

Saying that God allowing the scriptures to get corrupted means He is not God is like saying God allowing evil to occur means He is not God.  You don't believe the latter do you?  This shows your flawed view on the matter. 

So what you have is man who would like to corrupt God's Word but God who overrules him and preserves His Word. This is the omnipotent, powerful, almighty God who is alone worthy of worship.


God certainly can overrule man, but He can also choose not to.  Just as He chooses to allow man to do evil acts, He chose to allow the evil-doers and heretics among the Jews and Christians to corrupt the revelations they had been entrusted with.  If you are not going to talk logically, then you are in the wrong forum.

I see you ignored my comparison of the OT with the NT.  Should I be surprised?  Not really...LOL  Have you nothing to say about the indisputable evidence of contradictions between the two books?


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 16 March 2011 at 11:47am

Originally posted by islamispeace

@Islamispeace Let's cut to the chase here. The Muslim god who is not able to preserve his own scriptures, is an effete, incompetent, impotent, hapless, buffoon who is not worthy of worship: 

The true God never allows His Word to become corrupted. It is His Word.

What makes you conclude that God was not able to protect His scriptures?  Can't you see that He simply allowed it to happen?  Is it so hard to understand?

Saying that God allowing the scriptures to get corrupted means He is not God is like saying God allowing evil to occur means He is not God.  You don't believe the latter do you?  This shows your flawed view on the matter. 

God certainly can overrule man, but He can also choose not to.


Let's zero in on this point. You are saying that God permitted MAN to corrupt GOD's WORD.
 
You clearly don't understand God's relationship to His Word. I have already quoted Psalm 138:2
 
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
 
The Hebrew word for name is  שֵׁם (shem). This word has a very special meaning in the Hebrew. It is "THE NAME", "the celebrated name of God"," A designation for God", It represents God's renown, His Glory, His reputation, His fame. It is a title for God. The Jews use it in place of the sacred tetragrammaton יְהֹוָה (Yahweh).

Thus It represents God Himself and YET GOD SAYS HIS WORD IS ABOVE HIS NAME!

"Above all thy name - Above all else that thou hast done; above all the other manifestations of thyself to me or to the world. The word name here would refer properly to all that God had done to make himself known - since it is by the name that we designate or distinguish anyone; and, thus understood, the meaning would be, that the word of God - the revelation which he has made of himself and of his gracious purposes to mankind - is superior in clearness, and in importance, to all the other manifestations which he has made of himself; all that can be known of him in his works." Barnes Notes on Psalm 138:2

Thus, what Psalm 138:2 is saying is that if God allows His Word to become corrupted, then God Himself has become corrupted--and thus has ceased to be God.
 
Here are some more verses that show that God's Word is incorruptible:
 
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. (Isaiah 40:8)


For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (Matt 5:18)

Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. (Matt 24:35)

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail. (Luke 16:17)

but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you. 1 Pet 1:25


Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens. Psalm 119:89

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Luke 21:33

Thus, a god who either cannot prevent his word from being corrupted or who choses to allow his word to become corrupted is a god that is not God.



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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 17 March 2011 at 1:38pm
Let's zero in on this point. You are saying that God permitted MAN to corrupt GOD's WORD.
 
You clearly don't understand God's relationship to His Word. I have already quoted Psalm 138:2


Again with the circular reasoning.  To prove that the Bible is not corrupted, you quote the Bible?  This will not work.  Additionally, you took the verse out of context (as always).  Here is the context:

"1 I will praise you, LORD, with all my heart; before the “gods” I will sing your praise. 2 I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name  for your unfailing love and your faithfulness, for you have so exalted your solemn decree that it surpasses your fame. 3 When I called, you answered me; you greatly emboldened me. " (NIV)


Another translation states:

" 1I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.2I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. 3In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, and strengthenedst me with strength in my soul. " (KJV)

As you can see, the context of the verse is referring to God having answered David's prayers, so David praises Him for that.  It has nothing to do with preserving the scripture. 

We can also look at it from another perspective.  When God says His word endures forever, He is certainly right as the word is with Him!  So, even if humans corrupt the word on paper, the word remains with God Himself. 

Thus, what Psalm 138:2 is saying is that if God allows His Word to become corrupted, then God Himself has become corrupted--and thus has ceased to be God.


This is simply an interpretation, and not based on fact.  If it were the case, then why do we find the following in the same Bible:

"7 Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the LORD. 8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? 9 The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have?"  (Jeremiah 8:7-9, NIV)

So, here we have the Bible itself saying that the scribes have handled the law falsely.  What do scribes do?

Here are some more verses that show that God's Word is incorruptible:
 
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. (Isaiah 40:8)

For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (Matt 5:18)

Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. (Matt 24:35)

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail. (Luke 16:17)

but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you. 1 Pet 1:25


Your word, O LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens. Psalm 119:89

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Luke 21:33

Thus, a god who either cannot prevent his word from being corrupted or who choses to allow his word to become corrupted is a god that is not God.

All irrelevant, as you are still using circular logic to promote your idea.  And with the passages from Jeremiah 8, your argument grows weaker.

We can also point out that modern scholarship accepts without a doubt that the scriptures have been corrupted.  So, if your interpretation of these verses is accurate, then you are committing a heinous blasphemy by essentially presenting God as being incompetent!  That is a big problem for you as you accept the Bible, but it is nothing to me since my sources are the Quran and Sunnah.

Also, I have to point out again that you ignored my comparisons between the OT and the NT and the overwhelming evidence of their contradictory teachings.  Your attempts at evading this is telling in itself, but I would much rather see you respond instead of pretending that it is a non-issue.  For convenience, let me re-paste what I wrote:

One of the classic examples that the New Testament does not agree with the Old Testament is in the doctrine of the Second Coming.  Both Islam and Christianity affirm that Jesus (pbuh) will return, and yet there is not one verse in the OT which states that the Messiah would come back a second time.  For us Muslims, this is not a problem as we do not rely on the corrupted Bible.  We rely on the Quran and Sunnah.  But, it is a problem for you Christians since you regard the OT as inerrant scripture which does not contradict the NT.  Another example can be seen in how the NT views atonement and how the OT views.  On the other thread, you appealed to Leviticus 17:11, claiming that it states that blood sacrifice is the only way to atone for one's sins (even if it was, it contradicts the NT in that the sacrifice can only be made at the altar in the temple).  This contradicts other verses in the OT which state clearly that repenting is perfectly acceptable:

"Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon. " (Isaiah 55:7-8)


You can also read Leviticus 5 which states that one can even use flour if he cannot afford a lamb or pigeons!  [Source: http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=368:testimony-of-scripture&catid=72:scriptural-studies&Itemid=408 - Rabbi Yisroel Blumenthal, "The Testimony of Scripture" ]

Clearly, the Christian assumption that the NT agrees with the OT falls flat when seen in the light of the facts.



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 March 2011 at 8:48pm

A great and truthfull answer by Islamispeace.  Newbie let me ask you a question. The New Testament, its books as appear in your Bible, were they exactly in the same order and same word for word when revealed to Jesus by God. And what language were they in, and where is that original Gospel by Jesus today?

Thank you for your answer in advance.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 6:04am
Originally posted by honeto

The New Testament, its books as appear in your Bible, were they exactly in the same order and same word for word when revealed to Jesus by God.

Is this a serious question? No New Testament Books were revealed to Jesus.


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 9:03am
@Islamispeace  Here is my challenge to you. Henry David Thoreau said:
 
Not that the story need be long, but it will take a long while to make it short.  
 
Let's limit our posts to 100 words or less.
 
The Bible yields the Doctrine of Biblical Incorruptibility based on the verses I cited above. This makes perfect sense because God is incorruptible thus His Word  must also be incorruptible.
 
The Quran says it confirms the Bible (Surah 3:3 and many others) but yet denies all of the major Doctrines of the Bible.
 
Thus the Quran is illogical and not God's Word.
 
(exactly 100 words)


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 11:10am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw



Nonsense. A god who would allow any part of his word to become corrupted is an effete, incompetent, impotent, hapless, buffoon who is not worthy of worship. As a matter of fact, I could probably take such a weakling god in a fight--why would anyone be foolish enough to worship him? 
 

You see, this is the gaping irreconcilable hole in Muslim theology. It yields a god not worthy of worship.


You cannot blame the God for allowing His words to be corrupted.Such blame only represents a typical frivolous product liability lawsuit mentality.That will not work in this unique case, because the God has already replaced the abused and tempered (by human) product with far superior (product) the Final Revelation *****THE NOBLE QURAN***** Which by the way is another testament of God's existence that He not only can save His word, but again He can give mankind a chance to correct himself and follow his true word (The Noble Quran) to be saved. Because God is the Most Beneficent and Most Merciful.


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 18 March 2011 at 11:22am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

You cannot blame the God for allowing His words to be corrupted.
An incorruptible God can only only produce an incorruptible Word. A god whose word can be corrupted is a corruptible god not worthy of worship.
 
 


-------------
Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 20 March 2011 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

@Islamispeace  Here is my challenge to you. Henry David Thoreau said:
 
Not that the story need be long, but it will take a long while to make it short.  
 
Let's limit our posts to 100 words or less.
 
The Bible yields the Doctrine of Biblical Incorruptibility based on the verses I cited above. This makes perfect sense because God is incorruptible thus His Word  must also be incorruptible.
 
The Quran says it confirms the Bible (Surah 3:3 and many others) but yet denies all of the major Doctrines of the Bible.
 
Thus the Quran is illogical and not God's Word.
 
(exactly 100 words)


Excuses, excuses.  That's all we get from you people.  And after all that, no actual response to my last post and on the contradictions between the OT and the NT.  Rather, once again, you divert attention towards the Quran and repeat  the same bogus claims which have been refuted already.  Wow. 

As I showed, the verses you mentioned do not prove anything.  Even if they did, historical evidence shows without a doubt that both the Jewish and Christian texts have been altered.  And if Jeremiah 8:8 is to be considered, it the final nail in the coffin for you.   

(99 words...There goes your challenge! LOL)


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 20 March 2011 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

(99 words...There goes your challenge! LOL)
Very good!
 
So now let's hone in. I keep repeating myself because you keep ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room:
 
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

God is incorruptible thus His Word  must also be incorruptible.
 
This is the only valid theological Doctrine of God's Word


-------------
Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 22 March 2011 at 11:37am
Very good!
 
So now let's hone in. I keep repeating myself because you keep ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room:

God is incorruptible thus His Word  must also be incorruptible.

This is the only valid theological Doctrine of God's Word


So, you have confirmed my suspicions of your modus operandi, namely the mindless repetition of refuted material and completely ignoring the evidence.  Therefore, I will also repeat the evidence which dwarfs your so-called "800 pound gorilla":

As I showed, the verses you mentioned do not prove anything.  Even if they did, historical evidence shows without a doubt that both the Jewish and Christian texts have been altered.  And if Jeremiah 8:8 is to be considered, it the final nail in the coffin for you.   


-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 23 March 2011 at 2:13am
I had been on the fence on this thread_______________ LOL
But it is about time that I prick your trial balloon of ignorance!
I would like to be brief but you have put so much in opening that I might have do the same! 
Note: My response are in magenta the quote system not working on my desktop! So here are my two cents!
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

The cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics to Christians is the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption.  However, most Muslims:
1. Do not know the history of this doctrine.
2. Have never thought through the theological implications of this doctrine.
3. Have never thought through the historical implications of this doctrine.

In this thread, I would like to discuss these issues.
These are assumptions not facts...There are no Muslim apologetics; it is  Christian phenomena, the premise is false!

a·pol·o·get·ics  /əˌpɒləˈdʒɛtɪks/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html"> Show Spelled


History of the Doctrine:
Ibn Hazm (aka Ibn Khazem) was the first Muslim to posit the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption in the 11th century AD.  Thus for the first four centuries of Islamic history this doctrine did not exist.
From the get go let me warn you as you picked a wrong horse to put your wager on...Ibn Hazm (who told you Ibn Khazem  is a mystery) came on the scene  in Muslim Spain when the four Imams of Ahle wal Jammah were totally done with their work of Fiqh for the commonwealth of Muslims for a long long time... over a couple of centuries...He was a philosopher and proverbial  for the Europeans only not for the main body of Muslims! Muslims lost lots of stuff and if some Muslims of today don't know him or remember what was he about it is no harm, no foul kind of thing!

This is in keeping with a literal grammatical reading of the Quran which claims to be " a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture" Surah 10:37

However, Ibn Hazm noticed that the Quran does not live up to the standard which it proclaims:
Where did he say that or you are taking your own liberties funny man?
10:37 Simply states that what Allah revealed to all the prophets previously not what unauthorized charlatans made up for the this worldly power gain through organized cults! 

"Ibn-Khazem saw the contradictions between the Qur'an and the Gospels. One obvious example being the Qur'anic text `They slew him not and they crucified him not' Surah 4:156. `Since the Qur'an must be true,' Ibn- Khazem argued, `it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians.' His argument was not based on historical facts, but purely on his own reasoning and on his wish to safeguard the truth of the Qur'an. I. DI MATTEO, (`Il "takhrif" od alterazione della Bibbia secondo i musulmani', Bessarione 38 (1922) 64-111; 223-260; `Le preteze contradizzioni della S. Scrittura secondo Ibn-Hazm', Bessarione 39 (1923) 77-127, E. FRITSCH, op. cit., p. 66.)"

"Nothing could stop him from pursuing this accusation, it seemed the easiest way to attack the opponents. `If we prove the falsehood of their books, they lose the arguments they take from them.' (IBN KHAZEM, Kitab al-fasl fi'l-milah wa'l ahwa'l nikhal, II,6; E. FRITSCH, op cit., p.55) and this led to him eventually making the cynical statement `The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which Allah has left intact as argument against them.' ( IBN KHAZEM, ibid.; E. FRITSCH, op. cit, p. 64)"
 
"Later writers took up the same reasoning, enlarged it and embellished it. The falsification of the Bible was thus asserted by Salikh Ibn-al-Khusain (died 1200AD), Ahmad at-Qarafi (died 1285AD), Sa'id Ibn-Khasan (died 1320AD), Muhammad Ibn-Abi-Talib (died 1327AD), Ibn-Taimija (died 1328AD) and many others. From then on it has become a fixed ingredient of Muslim apologetics[/QUOTE] .


I am wondering what is your agenda to import Danial Pipes' reference here! The above narrative is non sequitur so far the issue of Christian Bible is concerned. The well versed Muslims ought to concur the part of available Gospel that is from the direct statement of Jesus. aka Nazarene creed.Period
All others aka Nicean creed rejected cuz as we say in language of quality assurance you need to check the product against the master drawing specifications and standards ( Absolute monotheistic standards as reiterated in master Torah & Gospel and finally Quran) and then accept or reject!

 Now will quote an incident that refutes the basis of your thread... that you need to send to Danial Pipes and his votaries to put in their archives for their posterity!
The stand of Christians was proven false during the time of prophets time. There is no need for anyone to dig up what Ibn Hazm proclaimed to the ignorant Europeans of his time!

The Holy Prophet was sending invitations to all to accept the true religion of God. Tribe after tribe, region after region, were coming into the fold of Islam. One such invitation was sent to the Christians of Najran, a town in Yemen, in the 9th year of Hijra. A deputation of 60 scholars came to discuss the matter with the Holy Prophet.
Abdul Masih, ( slave of Jesus ) the chief monk, asked the Prophet(s) as to who was the father of Jesus, thinking that the Holy Prophet would accept (God as the father of Jesus).

The following verse 

3:59 The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

was revealed to him and presented to the Christians as a reply but they did not listen to reason.
Then this verse was revealed to call them to a spiritual contest by invoking the curse of Allah on the liars mubahilah.


 
3:61 But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

 
The Christians agreed to this contest.

Early next morning, the Prophet came in, with grandsons Husayn in his arms,Hasan holding his index finger, walking beside him, daughter Fatimah Zahra, close to his heels and son in law Ali just behind

The Holy Prophet raised his hands to the heaven and said:

"O my Lord! These are the people of my house".

The chief monk looked up and down at their faces He cried out aloud:

"I see the faces that if they turn upward to the heavens and pray, the mountains shall move.

The Christians saw the wisdom of their chief and readily agreed to arrive at a settlement and didn't want to go pray for cursing the liars .


Why would any one with a sane mind would accept a reference from a notorious Islamophic gutter sniper Danial Pipes whose daily wages come from the forces of darkness to pay for his nefarious effortsQuestion

[QUOTETheological Implications of the Doctrine:

If God was either unable or unwilling to keep His Word from corruption, then He is not God.[/QUOTE]
This is called free will of the men of Israelite, they asked for a contract and then defaulted for not  doing their part of the bid and sold their souls to Mammon! Then came the termination of the contract with birth of their messiah without a man cuz no one was worthy any more to be the husband of last of God's favorite i.e. Miriam ...Allah gave the final call before closing the game! time was over that was the last chance to shape up...No MORE PROPHETS IN ISRAELITE LINE>PERIOD.
 
If He was not able to keep His Word from corruption then He is not Omnipotent and thus not God.If He was unwilling to keep His Word from Corruption then His attributes of Veracity and Immutability are compromised and He is not God:

To me it all makes perfect sense God controls nations not individuals! God gave ten commandments and I personally lots of people those who intentionally broke those one by one and no bolt of lightening appeared to stop them! You need a law enforcement for the scofflaws! And the problem was the Caucasian man made laws protected the them!
  They want to follow their own desires that is their business to a point.

His word is not corrupted rather what you have is not HIS Word but stories made up told by different writers and their views; that is normal when there is truth then there is an opposite...Then you go to court get the adjudication if there need be. And you have come to right place!
 Why did Paul go to European gentiles to preach his own Gospel cuz he was Hellenised racist
and saw a great opportunity to make new religion involving the Europeans based on Jesus after he disappeared from the scene. So far we are concerned GOD canceled the prophetic contract with sending of Jesus to the Israelite. He was not sent the gentiles Paul took that upon himself!
But that didn't stop the westerners in making more prophets of all size and kinds...they wrote more stories to create cults and churches than one can shake the stick at!
Just look
Catholicism, Lutheranism, Protestantism, Baptism, Mormonism, Communism, Leninism Marxism My GOD don't they stop inventing stuff wait I forgot capitalism socialism and many more isms...
 
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.Isaiah 40:8

Historical Implications of the Doctrine:

The historical implications of this doctrine are huge. The Bible is by far the most well attested book of antiquity. The manuscript evidence is much stronger than any other ancient writing. Thus to throw out the Bible as corrupted is to throw out the writings of: Homer, Virgil, Tacitus, Josephus, Julius Caesar, Ovid, Virgil, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristotle, Suetonius, etc., basically all of Ancient History.

Thus, Ibn Hazm's doctrine of Biblical Corruption makes no sense. It should be rejected by the honest Muslim. It is an impediment to the necessary confrontation of the critical question:

What is the real reason why the Quran and the Bible disagree on most major doctrines?

You are shoving Ibn Hazm in our faces same as Paul did in the absence of Jesus! He made up things that Quraanic revelations totally reject.
Paul had no business pitching his creed to anyone but he did that anyway just like Karl Marx did creating communism and Herzle did creating Zionism! It was Paul's doing that paved the way for the subjugation of the nonwhite nations around the globe in the long run! Don't you see how successful were their worldly themes! But the hereafter is another matter!

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's". These God's word's LOL

Imagine even today in the west most wealth is in the hands of 1-2 percent of the elite that in reality worship is approval of Mammon worship instead of God!

And just heard the famous Helen Thomas say "Every Prez is a liar"....Think about it one who takes oath on a Bible!
Paul was a prolific writer! A prophet can't be, the novelists are! Do you get it?
The bottom line the Pauline way was to get the Mithric creed co opted from Rome at any cost along with the Jewish Tanakh's characters and it finally did happen, with same trinitarian dogma that the Mithric cult had... the rest is history of horrors once the Christianity took hold of the Europeans! The only difference a touch of self styled divinity sprinkling of holy water at every step of mayhem and Muslims did suffer at their hands in Inquisition, Crusades and others in internecine wars, wholesale indiscriminate slaughter of the populace in Europe Africa and Americas , colonialism and destruction of effete Muslim polity in their own lands when they were told to be vigilant!

How is it all possible for some pieces of gold and silver and some trinkets in the name of Jesus whose life is known barely may be three years to the masses and rest a mystery? Where as most of the life the Mhmd(s) is recorded with inntricate detail and he left behind a Realm known the world over! When you pick up a Quran no where you see from cover to cover who wrote it! Just think!
29:46 (P) And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.

To this end I will accept what was actually revealed by God to the prophets of Israelite ending with Jesus and no arguing beside that!


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 25 March 2011 at 7:21am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I had been on the fence on this thread_______________ LOL
Welcome to the party Sign*reader. Hop on the bus with Islamispeace and let me take you to school.
 
First in your long epistle you neglected to adress the 800 pound Gorilla in the room (as did Isalmispeace):
 
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

So now let's hone in. I keep repeating myself because you keep ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room:
 
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

God is incorruptible thus His Word  must also be incorruptible.
 
This is the only valid theological Doctrine of God's Word
 
Why would I ever entrust a whimsical, capricious, ne'er-do-well god, whose word he allowed to be corrupted by man, with the salvation of my soul? What assurance do I have that he will not also allow my soul to be lost and corrupted the same way he allowed his word to be lost and corrupted?
 
No sir. Such a god is not God.
 
The God of the Bible said that His name endures forever:
 
יהוה שמך לעולם
Your name, O LORD, endures forever (Psalm 135:13)
 
and that His Word is even more sure than His name:
 
הגדלת על-כל-שמך אמרתך
you have magnified your word above all your name (Psalm 138:2)
 
Thus the conclusion in Isaiah:
 
יבש חציר נבל ציץ ודבר אלהינו יקום לעולם 
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. Isaiah 40:8
 
repeated by Peter:
 
τὸ δὲ ῥῆμα κυρίου μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα
BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER 1 Peter 1:25
 
Now such a God I can entrust with the salvation of my soul.
 
הללו־יה 
αλληλουια
Hallelujah!


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 26 March 2011 at 2:15am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

Why would I ever entrust a whimsical, capricious, ne'er-do-well god, whose word he allowed to be corrupted by man, with the salvation of my soul?


800 # gorilla LOL

You are sadly mistaken that in anyway entrust your soul to Allah! The debate is about about you spamming Ibn Hazm, from your soul manager Daniel Pipes!

I gave the rebuttal about your hopelessly fact challenged and dumb spam and then you want to obfuscate with mumbo jumbo going off on a tangent of your personal insecurities about your soul...In order to cover your embarrassment you are quoting from OT/NT to justify your lost state cuz OT and NT are the polar opposite in content and application...Would you ever try quoting NT on a jewish site to prove anything you will be shouted out with expletives!

 
What assurance do I have that he will not also allow my soul to be lost and corrupted the same way he allowed his word to be lost and corrupted?

Again you are not addressing the subject...but anyho if you want to talk about soul...
A simple answer: when you polish the mirror you get the clear reflection and  same is with heart, where soul (the better/ worst self as the case may be) resides when at peace it is heaven...

Either you are going to control and guard your soul or it is going to run your life, you have to make that choice!

The narcissistic western man driven by his soul wants others to bend to his  demands and desires; wants the best of both worlds till the shell of body is all worn out shot out as the case may be...You can look around wherever you are you can find examples galore Hollywood and Wall Street! The whole system is running by the narcissism of the souls ODied on OT/NT, it doesn't matter rich, poor or anyone in between!
Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself...He that receives guidance benefits his own soul, but he that strays injure his own soul...

So don't pass the buck you are responsible! Verily never will God change the condition of people until they change it themselves with their own souls!

The old saying the tree is known by its fruits and action speaks louder than words! Last night I found a perfect documentary to show you what I am saying it will blow you away!
Spend a dollar and get a documentary "INSIDE JOB" and look at the faces, places and names then think about the rottenness of their souls; where they belong in Hell or paradise? who their god is? I dare you see this film!
You will presently find most of characters are real in the film are un-indicted thieves and robbers as were at the time of Jesus Jews and their lackeys who are Christians...but on a global scale!
If you can proselytize anyone by spamming you must be living in fools  paradize! 






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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 26 March 2011 at 6:19am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

Why would I ever entrust a whimsical, capricious, ne'er-do-well god, whose word he allowed to be corrupted by man, with the salvation of my soul?
The debate is about about you spamming Ibn Hazm... 
What assurance do I have that he will not also allow my soul to be lost and corrupted the same way he allowed his word to be lost and corrupted?

Again you are not addressing the subject...
Sign*Reader, the subject is a theological debate. Ibn Hazm posited the Doctrine of the Corruption of God's Word. This doctrine is the cornerstone of Islamic Apologetics (1).  Without this doctrine, Islam cannot be defended since the Quran, on which it is based, says it agrees with the Bible (Surah 3:3), but clearly, upon examination, does not.
 
Ibn Hazm did not think through the logical implications of his doctrine. A god who cannot keep his word is a god who cannot be trusted--just as a man who cannot keep his word is a man who cannot be trusted.
 
I entrust my soul to my Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Mighty God of Isaiah 9:6 who became the God With Us of Isaiah 7:14 and the God Whose Word endures forever in Isaiah 40:8
 
(1) Let me take you to school on the following error that you made:
 
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

There are no Muslim apologetics; it is  Christian phenomena, the premise is false!

The English word Apologetics is from the Greek απολογία (apologia) meaning a verbal defense, a speech in defense, a reasoned statement or argument. Thus the more correct definition is as follows:
 
the discipline of defending a position (usually religious) through the systematic use of reason.
 

 


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 26 March 2011 at 4:06pm
Welcome to the party Sign*reader. Hop on the bus with Islamispeace and let me take you to school.
 
First in your long epistle you neglected to adress the 800 pound Gorilla in the room (as did Isalmispeace):


LOL Both you and your "800 pound gorilla" are suffering from denial.  Any person with an ounce of reason will see that you are chasing your own tail and making a fool out of yourself.  You know in school when you take an exam and leave a question blank, you get the question wrong!  You have failed to refute the arguments I have raised and instead simply repeat the same tired, old arguments.  Join the club...of Christians who have no answers for the contradictions in the Bible!


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Egwpisteuw
Date Posted: 27 March 2011 at 5:12am
Originally posted by islamispeace

LOL Both you and your "800 pound gorilla" are suffering from denial.  Any person with an ounce of reason will see that you are chasing your own tail and making a fool out of yourself.  You know in school when you take an exam and leave a question blank, you get the question wrong!  You have failed to refute the arguments I have raised and instead simply repeat the same tired, old arguments. 
 
This is just more ad hominem abuse and idle words. It's nothing more than a tacit admission that you can't answer my argument which I have reduced to down to an ultra-succint formulation:
 
An inccoruptible God can only produce an incorruptible word.
 
Originally posted by islamispeace

the contradictions in the Bible
 
If the Bible has contradictions then you and I both need to become Atheists because:
 
Jesus says the Bible has no contradictions:
 
ου δυναται λυθηναι η γραφη ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 10:35
 
the Scripture cannot be broken John 10:35
 
and the Quran specifically confirms this statement:
 
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
 
 
 


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Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν
Christ died for us


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 March 2011 at 11:19am
This is just more ad hominem abuse and idle words. It's nothing more than a tacit admission that you can't answer my argument which I have reduced to down to an ultra-succint formulation:
 
An inccoruptible God can only produce an incorruptible word.


And this is just more mindless repetition, something I have pointed out before.  This is an argumentum ad nauseum http://www.csun.edu/%7Edgw61315/fallacies.html#Argumentum%20ad%20nauseam - [1] .  Even though I have thoroughly refuted this baseless argument already, one more time will not make a difference. 

Your bolded statement is an example of a non-sequitur, which I have pointed out before.  A non-sequitur is "an inference which does not follow from the premises" http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/non%2520sequitur - [2] .  Your statement is unproven and based on your own assumption.  It is like saying an infinitely good God will never allow evil to occur, which I have pointed out before and which you ignored.  Obviously, both statements are opinions and actually not based on fact.  God clearly allows evil to occur, so He can also allow humans to willingly corrupt His word.  Of course, His justice demands that those heretics be punished and that the truth be reinstated so that mankind may receive true guidance. 

Your statement is also self-contradictory.  You seem to say that God is limited.  By saying "...God can only produce..." you are placing limits on what God can and cannot do, which is in itself a heresy. 

If the Bible has contradictions then you and I both need to become Atheists because:
 
Jesus says the Bible has no contradictions:
 
ου δυναται λυθηναι η γραφη ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 10:35
 
the Scripture cannot be broken John 10:35
 
and the Quran specifically confirms this statement:
 
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.


Yet another red herring!  Your continued attempts to ignore the contradictions and resort to diversions shows very clearly that you have no answers.  I also need to correct your statement that we both need to become Atheists.  Actually, only you need to question your faith.  You have shown that clearly with John 10:35.  This is the nail in the coffin for the Bible.  Thank you for proving that. 

On the other hand, the Quran says clearly that it confirms the truth and refutes the falsehood.  The confirmation is the original monotheistic message of the previous prophets.  The refutation is of the heresies and false statements which have been added to the Bible.  Modern scholarship proves this conclusively.  Since you continue to avoid this issue, every post you make is simply littered with fallacies such as argumentum ad nauseum, and red herrings. 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 28 March 2011 at 5:42am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw



An incorruptible God can only only produce an incorruptible Word. A god whose word can be corrupted is a corruptible god not worthy of worship.
 



 Then you shouldnot worship Jesus Christ because your current Bible has flaws.Let me show you.In the story "Jesus calms the storm," did Jesus stop the storm then rebuke the disciples, or the other way round?

  Mark's Gospel

 First he stopped the storm:

 Mark 4:39:

"He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm."


 Then he rebuked the disciples:

 Mark 4:40:
"He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?"



 Matthew's Gospel

 First he rebuked the disciples:

 Matthew 8:26:
"He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm."


 Then he stopped the storm:

 
Matthew 8:26:
"He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm."



 If the Bible is the word of God, every word should be true. But, with these chronological contradictions, only 1 chronological order can be right while other has to be false.

 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 March 2011 at 1:50pm
Dear Eg,
I hope you benefit from the truth shown to you by all who are taking on this important issue.
I will say it is nieve of you to think say that if people will alter what is given to them in a trust from God would mean that God is incapable. Thus if it is word of God, and it is in human hands it cannot be corrupted. It is childish to think that. Read the preface to your Bible, if your Bible does not have one, let me know, I will be glad to scan that page and post it for you that states about alterations.
As for the moment, I have something to show you. It is a simple example of how when hands change, so does the interpretations and meanings.
 
The Jewish OT Isaiah chapter 9 (at Chabad.org) says something completely different than what it means in Christian Bible. It clearly shows the intention behind it.
I will not give my opinion but just what is truthfully out there as a fact and example of a transformation.
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
 
Now note very carefully how the Christians, after adopting the OT, modified its meaning in places to fit the new doctrine that was never there.
6 For to us a child is born,
   to us a son is given,
   and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
   Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
   Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
 
It is clear that just how altered placement of words can change the whole truth. I beleive this is the case and truth when we say that the word of God in human hands got altered by man who were supposed to be its caretakers. The above example beside numerous others shown by learned brothers and sisters on this boeard, not to mention many Biblical scholars themselves testify to the fact that alterations took palce.
Bible has testified to that fact itself:

Jeremiah 8:8 (New International Version, ©2011)

 8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
   for we have the law of the LORD,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
   has handled it falsely?

We all have presented to you the evidence and the facts, the testimony from the Bible itself.
Now here is the biggest authority and the Testimony from the Quran, the Final word from God to mankind:

Al Maidah (5):12 God did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel......(13) their hearts grew hard. They changed the words from their places and forgot a good part of the messsage that was sent them...........

14 From those who call themselves Christians we did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them.........soon will God show them what it is they have done.

15. O people of the Book (Jews and Christians) there hath come to you our Messanger, revealing to you that you used to hide in the book, and passing over much (that is now unneccessary."

There hath come to you from God a new light and a perspicuous Book.

16 Wherewith God guides all who seek His good pleasure, to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness by His will, Unto the light-guideth them to a path that is straight.

Hasan



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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 28 March 2011 at 3:49pm
Good response brother Hasan.  You have raised some valid points.  Jazak Allah Khair.

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 30 March 2011 at 10:12am

Originally posted by BMZ

So, naturally the New Testament is definitely not the Injeel as it was given by the Church, not the LORD Almighty … And when Qur'aan refers to the Torah and the Injeel or simply talks about the past scriptures, it refers to only the truth that went before Qur'aan …

Can you tell us who that church was? Did Moses or Jesus posses these truthful records you speak of? The truth that went before the Quran, where are those sacred writings now and can you share them with us? Is it available at all to support your premise or can you compare it to the Injeel to show what was corrupted? If not, at best it’s taken ONLY as a (false) accusation, nothing more. Did any of the other Prophets posses them? Did God have them recorded for our benefit? Or is it because Muhammad says so and not Moses or Jesus?

Originally posted by islamispeace

The Quran states very clearly that the previous revelations were corrupted ...  

Yea, yea, yea; and the Quran calls the Torah and the Injil “the Books of Enlightenment” Q 35:25 and scores of Quranic verses state that these books are from God Q 2:89 My favorite is Q 21:7 your Quran recommends seeking out those versed in the Torah and the Injil Q 21:7

*Wama arsalna qablaka illarijalan noohee ilayhim fais-aloo ahla alththikriin kuntum la taAAlamoona

Would an invitation be given to turn BACK to corrupted books Isse? What logic is behind that?

 

In any case, Jesus’ says otherwise, which I will address next despite what he claims.

Originally posted by BMZ

Thus Qur'aan does not say or verify that everything in the OT and the NT, is correct …

It doesn’t need too, Jesus already had many, many years ago and verified everything in the scriptures were absolutely correct. Remember the Holy Scriptures were already completed before there was even a Saudi Arabia.

Luke 24:25-27 So he said to them: “O senseless ones and slow in heart to believe on all the things the prophets spoke! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?” 27 And commencing at Moses and all the Prophets he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures

Jesus verifies everything in the scriptures is correct.

44 He now said to them: “These are my words which I spoke to YOU while I was yet with YOU, that all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures.

Again - Jesus verifies everything in the scriptures is correct.

Do you believe your Prophet Jesus? Why did Jesus not say these writing were corrupt? Why only Muhammad? Did Muhammad say Jesus was wrong for not saying it?

John 14:26 “While remaining with YOU I have spoken these things to YOU. 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU ‘all’ things and bring back to YOUR minds ‘all’ the things I told YOU.

Jesus verifies and confirms everything in the scriptures is correct because it was through the Holy Spirit they wrote these things about Jesus.

Now, I know Muslims would like this to fit Muhammad’s case, who wouldn’t want this to fit their spiritual leader but it doesn’t, direct evidence simply proves otherwise. The Holy Spirit help the Apostle’s in their writings of the Gospel. Do you have a Holy Book before the Quran to show and prove otherwise, that these were not Jesus’ words? I would love to read it, because if you’re comparing them to your Quran and what it has to say about the scriptures before it, you are the one that have misinterpreted them. If you have a Holy book that proves the “Dead Sea Scrolls” to be incorrect or inaccurate, produce the facts? Or again, is it Muhammad’s words and the Jinn?   

Originally posted by MANSOOR ALI

Well if you read Surah 4:157 it clearly denies any crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Which I’m not surprised at, why wouldn’t it, remember who is behind it all, the Jinn; besides, most if not all ‘sacred’ writings talk against other so called sacred writings, but the Old and New Testament are the oldest books that ever existed that is still around today. All other such books are simply out dated starting with the Quran first!

Interestingly enough the crucifixion or sacrifice of Jesus as the ‘Lamb of God that takes sin away from the world’ is the pillar to the Old and New Testament, it wouldn’t survive without it. Obviously Muslims have no clue WHY sacrifices in earlier times HAD to be offered in the first place. Why Cain and Able had to offer up a sacrifice to God? Why Abraham’s faith was tested to offer his son up as a sacrifice. For the Quran to deny the sacrifice of Jesus and as Muslims say “their” Prophet is to deny Almighty God, his Holy writings and Jesus as the ‘TRUE’ Prophet of God although the whole world knows Jesus to be more than just a Prophet.

Nonetheless, it clearly shows why Muhammad was coerce to recite or die, he had no other choice I guess but to do what the jinn had threaten him to do! In the Muslim community it is the world best kept secret! This ploy would then divert Muslims attention from Jesus being the savior of the world to an imperfect man name Muhammad, no different from when some of the Jews attention was miss-directed from Jesus as he came to the lost sheep of Israel. However, Revelations only come from God and Jesus, not Gabriel or any other angel.

Therefore the birth of Islam the Quran and Muhammad was born. Muhammad was Devil-handled unlike Jesus who Then said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah (YHWH) your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (MATT 4:10)

Jesus did not in any way, shape or form fall for the bait as did Muhammad. What was the bait you ask? (Matt. 4:8) Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”

The Jinn/Devil/Satan wanted to be worshipped! Jesus did not fall for the bait but Muhammad did. And from a human standpoint Muhammad was rewarded for worshipping him. All the riches, power, glory, women and the list go on.

It was the oldest trick in the book, really! In the first book of Geneses, it happened in the Garden of Eden, they fell for it and it happened to Muhammad and he fell for it and here we are at this juncture.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Would this include Jesus disciples, Muhammad! and every man, women and child who came AFTER Jesus? Yes. Why? Man is too sinful (Muhammad displayed that all too well) he needs a redeemer, a mediator to get to God. Much like the ‘Nation of Israel needed Moses as a mediator.  

(John 1:29) The next day he beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

Originally posted by honeto

I have something to show you. It is a simple example of how when hands change, so does the interpretations and meanings …. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." … It is clear that just how altered placement of words can change the whole truth …

In Isaiah 9:6 that you quoted what truth was changed and what new doctrine or meaning are you referring too?

 



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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:07am

 To Shibb

 If your Bible is so reliable then provide satisfactory response to chronological contradiction in Mark 4:39-40 and Matthew 8:26??


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:49am

Originally posted by MANSOOR ALI

Well if you read Surah 4:157 it clearly denies any crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Which I’m not surprised at, why wouldn’t it, remember who is behind it all, the Jinn; besides, most if not all ‘sacred’ writings talk against other so called sacred writings, but the Old and New Testament are the oldest books that ever existed that is still around today. All other such books are simply out dated starting with the Quran first!

Interestingly enough the crucifixion or sacrifice of Jesus as the ‘Lamb of God that takes sin away from the world’ is the pillar to the Old and New Testament, it wouldn’t survive without it. Obviously Muslims have no clue WHY sacrifices in earlier times HAD to be offered in the first place. Why Cain and Able had to offer up a sacrifice to God? Why Abraham’s faith was tested to offer his son up as a sacrifice. For the Quran to deny the sacrifice of Jesus and as Muslims say “their” Prophet is to deny Almighty God, his Holy writings and Jesus as the ‘TRUE’ Prophet of God although the whole world knows Jesus to be more than just a Prophet.

Nonetheless, it clearly shows why Muhammad was coerce to recite or die, he had no other choice I guess but to do what the jinn had threaten him to do! In the Muslim community it is the world best kept secret! This ploy would then divert Muslims attention from Jesus being the savior of the world to an imperfect man name Muhammad, no different from when some of the Jews attention was miss-directed from Jesus as he came to the lost sheep of Israel. However, Revelations only come from God and Jesus, not Gabriel or any other angel.

Therefore the birth of Islam the Quran and Muhammad was born. Muhammad was Devil-handled unlike Jesus who Then said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah (YHWH) your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (MATT 4:10)

Jesus did not in any way, shape or form fall for the bait as did Muhammad. What was the bait you ask? (Matt. 4:8) Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”

The Jinn/Devil/Satan wanted to be worshipped! Jesus did not fall for the bait but Muhammad did. And from a human standpoint Muhammad was rewarded for worshipping him. All the riches, power, glory, women and the list go on.

It was the oldest trick in the book, really! In the first book of Geneses, it happened in the Garden of Eden, they fell for it and it happened to Muhammad and he fell for it and here we are at this juncture.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Would this include Jesus disciples, Muhammad! and every man, women and child who came AFTER Jesus? Yes. Why? Man is too sinful (Muhammad displayed that all too well) he needs a redeemer, a mediator to get to God. Much like the ‘Nation of Israel needed Moses as a mediator.  

(John 1:29) The next day he beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.



 To Shibb.

 Jesus Christ himself denied the crucifixion in Luke 13:33.

 Luke 13:33 says: “it is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem

 Obviously Luke 13 verse 33 is a reference to Jesus Christ.We also know Jesus is a Prophet (Matthew 21:11,Matthew 13:57,Mark 6:4,Luke 4:24,Luke 24:19,Luke 7:16,John 7:40).

 Now, logically, if Jesus cannot die outside of Jerusalem, and the cross was outside of Jerusalem, then Jesus did not die on the cross.

 According to the records that we have in the gospels Jesus supposedly died at a place called Golgotha (Matthew 27:23, Mark 15:22, Luke 23:33 and John 19:17).

 Question is:Where was Golgotha?

 According to an article by Keith W. Stump Golgotha was outside of Jerusalem.

 “What does the Bible tell us about the location? The Gospel writers call the place where Jesus was crucified Golgotha—an Aramaic word meaning “the skull.” Calvary is the Latin form of the word. Scripture does not reveal the precise location of Golgotha. It simply states that Jesus’ crucifixion took place outside the city of Jerusalem, though near it (John 19:20; Hebrews 13:12). Jewish law did not permit executions and burials inside the city.”

 

 HarperCollins’ Bible Dictionary informs,

“John 19:20 and Jewish and Roman execution customs indicate that it was located outside of Jerusalem’s city walls”. (Paul J. Achtemeier. HarperCollins’ Bible Dictionary(1996). HarperCollins. p. 164)

 

 Mercer Dictionary of the Bible tells us,

“Jewish and Roman law would likely have required capital punishment to take place outside the city walls (John 19:20; Heb 13:12).” (Watson E. Mills. Mercer Dictionary of the Bible(1990). Macon, Georgia: Mercer University Press. p. 128)

 

 According to Encyclopedia Brittanica Golgotha was outside Jerusalem,

“The hill of execution was outside the city walls of Jerusalem, apparently near a road and not far from the sepulchre where Jesus was buried.”

 
 According to John Jesus was taken to a place called Golgotha which was   outside of Jerusalem.Now there are only two options:

 1. Jesus lied in Luke 13:33

2. Jesus did not lie in Luke 13:33.


  Luke 13:33 clearly denies what is told about his alleged crucifixion. Unless he died in Jerusalem the whole incident was no incident at all.



Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:51am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw



An incorruptible God can only only produce an incorruptible Word. A god whose word can be corrupted is a corruptible god not worthy of worship.
 



 Then you shouldnot worship Jesus Christ because your current Bible has flaws.Let me show you.In the story "Jesus calms the storm," did Jesus stop the storm then rebuke the disciples, or the other way round?

  Mark's Gospel

 First he stopped the storm:

 Mark 4:39:

"He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm."


 Then he rebuked the disciples:

 Mark 4:40:
"He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?"



 Matthew's Gospel

 First he rebuked the disciples:

 Matthew 8:26:
"He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm."


 Then he stopped the storm:

 
Matthew 8:26:
"He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm."



 If the Bible is the word of God, every word should be true. But, with these chronological contradictions, only 1 chronological order can be right while other has to be false.

 



Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:52am

 To Shibb

 If your Bible is so reliable then provide satisfactory response to chronological contradiction in Mark 4:39-40 and Matthew 8:26??


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 April 2011 at 3:07pm
To Eg,
I am waiting to hear your response to my last post above regarding transformation of the Bible contents and their meanings by those who wrote it over and over.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"



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