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Jesus Will Return - Site

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Prophets - Jesus
Forum Discription: Prophets - Jesus
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16539
Printed Date: 20 August 2014 at 11:34am


Topic: Jesus Will Return - Site
Posted By: ahmetsecer
Subject: Jesus Will Return - Site
Date Posted: 21 March 2010 at 6:35am
 
Jesus Will Return
 
http://www.jesuswillreturn.com - http://www.jesuswillreturn.com
 
In the Qur'an, there is an explicit reference to the "second coming of the Jesus to the world" which is heralded in a hadith. The realisation of some information revealed in the Qur'an about Jesus can only be possible by Jesus' second coming. People who are oppressed, who are tortured to death, innocent babies, those who cannot afford even a loaf of bread, who must sleep in tents or even in streets in cold weather, those who are massacred just because they belong to a certain tribe, women, children, and old people who are expelled from their homes.



Replies:
Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 23 March 2010 at 4:51am

Salam Ahmet,

I would like those verses from the Quran which indicates Jesus's return.There is an understanding that this is  false coz wouldnt that make him the last prophet??????!!

Peace!



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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 04 April 2010 at 11:41am
Originally posted by haris30432

Salam Ahmet,

I would like those verses from the Quran which indicates Jesus's return.There is an understanding that this is  false coz wouldnt that make him the last prophet??????!!

Peace!



Hi Haris30432,

Very good point!! Thanks for starting this, because I was thinking the same.

In the Mosque, they told us that Jesus will appear again to save the world before the Final Judgement. I think some people call him "Mahdi", but my teachers, who have a deep knowledge of Islam (they teach Islam and Arabic in the Mosque), they defend that Jesus will be the one who save everyone in our last moments...

I didn't ask them about it, because sure I don't want to hurt them, but I was keeping this question inside me until now... if Jesus will save the world, that means that Jesus will be the Last Prophet, and our belief that he is the most special between the Prophets is true... actually, that would be, for us, the second time He is resurrecting (today we celebrate His first Resurrection), so it's obvious that He was really the most special (I don't mean the best or the worst, just special) between the Prophets, because He came directly from God, not from a human father, and after His death in the cross, he came to the life and was elevated to Heaven. And for Muslim (at least for a group of Muslim), He will save the Humanity, for second time according to our beliefs.

Really, I am confused with this ideas, but I am happy to see that I am not the only one confused... I hope we can find the answer.

Regards,
Patricia


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No God wants the killing, but the peace.
The weapons are carried by people, not by religions.


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 05 April 2010 at 11:50am
The important point  being missed here is that Jesus will return as a follower of Muhammad and will uphold the Sharia.  Therefore, he will not be bringing something new. 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 07 April 2010 at 5:20am
Peace,
 
I am not confused in this regard at all.Im absolutely sure that there is no return of Prophet Jesus as some people claim.There is no such information in the Quran.The Quran clearly tells us that Prophet Muhammed is the last Prophet.Jesus was a Prophet of GOD.Now if he returns,that would most certainly make him the last Prophet .And it wouldnt matter who or what message he preaches or follows.


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 08 April 2010 at 2:29pm
Haris, there is plenty in the Quran to indicate that Jesus (pbuh) will return.  It does not say "Jesus will return" but it alludes to his return.  For instance, the Quran says that Jesus did not die on the cross and that he was raised up to Allah (4:157), but verse 159 says the following:

"And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- "

How will Jesus die if he will not return?  It is very clear that he was not killed on the cross and was raised to Allah alive.  Therefore, unless he will return a second time and then die, verse 159 would not make any sense.  A second coming is the only explanation.  That is why the majority of scholars have accepted the validity of the second coming. 

Consider also 43:61 which states:

"And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way."


This cannot refer to his first coming as that was 2,000 years ago. 

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the last prophet.  I agree.  But wait...don't you believe that Rashid Khalifa was a prophet?  So, first of all, what makes you discount the second coming of Jesus on the ground that the Quran says there will be no more prophets after Muhammad, yet you believe that RK was a prophet? 

Like I said, when Jesus returns, he will not return as a prophet but as a deliverer.  He will return as a follower of Muhammad (pbuh), and will not bring anything new, whether laws, teachings or prophecies.  All of that was covered by prophet Muhammad (pbuh).  Therefore, Jesus is not the last prophet, even though he will return for a second time.  If it was stated that Jesus would return to replace the Shariah, the Quran and Islam, then you would have a valid argument.  But since that is not the case, your argument is mute.       

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 09 April 2010 at 12:22pm
Peace, 
 
For instance, the Quran says that Jesus did not die on the cross and that he was raised up to Allah (4:157), but verse 159 says the following:
 
Lets examine the verses.
 
[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified himthey were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*

[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

وَإِن مِّنۡ أَهۡلِ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ إِلَّا لَيُؤۡمِنَنَّ بِهِۦ قَبۡلَ مَوۡتِهِۦ‌ۖ [4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death(this part of the verse is clearly in the past tense and not the future or present tense,u can examine the arabic text using an Arabic to English Translator available online).
 
On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them(This is in future tense ofcourse)
 
From the above verses it is clear that GOD didnt say that Jesus never died.The righteous do not really die ,they are simply raised to GOD.As far as this world is concerned, he did die and this is why the Jews claimed that they killed him.The people of the book in this verse are the Jews during  Jesus's time.They were supposed to believe in him but they disbeleived.And Yes it is true that GOD raised his soul to him.So why didnt GOD say in the Quran that Jesus DIED??The below verse answers the question.
 

[2:154] Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.*

[3:169] Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of GOD are dead; they are alive at their Lord, enjoying His provisions.
 
 
And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way."

This cannot refer to his first coming as that was 2,000 years ago.
 
Well well.... i beg to differ brother.Jesus is certainly a sign of the last hour no doubt but it was his birth and not the second coming as u claim.Proof???Look at the below verse.
 

[47:18] Are they waiting until the Hour comes to them suddenly? All the signs thereof have already come.* Once the Hour comes to them, how will they benefit from their message?

Why wud GOD say that the signs have already come when the Quran was revealed if Jesus's second coming  which is yet to come is a sign of the hour ???!!! 
 
 Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the last prophet.  I agree.  But wait...don't you believe that Rashid Khalifa was a prophet?  So, first of all, what makes you discount the second coming of Jesus on the ground that the Quran says there will be no more prophets after Muhammad, yet you believe that RK was a prophet?
 
This is a diversion from the subject of discussion here.However since you brought it up i wud like to clarify that RK was not a prophet.He was a messenger of GOD and there is a difference.Since that is not the topic of discussion here i wouldnt want to elaborate this here.If u need more info u can check it up online or we will discuss this elsewhere inshallah.
 
Peace!!
 
 


 

 

 
 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 April 2010 at 11:18am
this part of the verse is clearly in the past tense and not the future or present tense,u can examine the arabic text using an Arabic to English Translator available online).


Clearly, you are incorrect because every reputable translation contradicts RK's translation (which is what you are clearly using):

Yusuf Ali: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Pickthall: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

Shakir: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

Arberry: There is not one of the People of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them.

Bewley: There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Rising he will be a witness against them.

Palmer: And there shall not be one of the people of the Book but shall believe in him before his death; and on the day of judgment he shall be a witness against them.

Sale: And there shall not be one of those who have received the scriptures, who shall not believe in him, before his death; and on the day of resurrection he shall be a witness against them.

Asad: Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus; and on the Day of Resurrection he [himself] shall bear witness to the truth against them.

Aziz: And there shall not be one of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he shall be a witness against them.

In light of all these translations, along comes Mr. Khalifa and decides he knows better.  The evidence contradicts Khalifa's claims.

From the above verses it is clear that GOD didnt say that Jesus never died.The righteous do not really die ,they are simply raised to GOD.As far as this world is concerned, he did die and this is why the Jews claimed that they killed him.The people of the book in this verse are the Jews during  Jesus's time.They were supposed to believe in him but they disbeleived.And Yes it is true that GOD raised his soul to him.


This is nothing more than a revisionist interpretation.  It has been the overwhelming majority opinion in the 1400+ years of Islamic history that Jesus did not die.  There would have been no reason for God to say that Jesus did not die but it was made to appear to them, but that he really did die but is not really dead because "the righteous do not die".  One can see the nonsense in such reasoning. 

The term "people of the book" was used only when referring to both Christians and Jews and you know it.  It would again not make sense for God to use the title "people of the book" to refer to just the Jews when throughout the Quran God referred to them as the "Children of Israel". 

So why didnt GOD say in the Quran that Jesus DIED??The below verse answers the question.[2:154] Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.*  [3:169] Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of GOD are dead; they are alive at their Lord, enjoying His provisions.
 

The Quran also refers to the previous prophets who were killed:

(2:61)And remember ye said: "O Moses! we cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth, -its pot-herbs, and cucumbers, Its garlic, lentils, and onions." He said: "Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!" They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing.


(3:21) As to those who deny the Signs of Allah and in defiance of right, slay the prophets, and slay those who teach just dealing with mankind, announce to them a grievous penalty.


Why didn't Allah (swt) make the same distinction here when referring to the messengers and prophets who were killed by the wicked among the Jews?

Well well.... i beg to differ brother.Jesus is certainly a sign of the last hour no doubt but it was his birth and not the second coming as u claim.Proof???Look at the below verse.[47:18] Are they waiting until the Hour comes to them suddenly? All the signs thereof have already come.* Once the Hour comes to them, how will they benefit from their message?


It was not referring to his birth.  It says that Jesus "shall be" a sign of the last hour.  This was after he was born.

Why wud GOD say that the signs have already come when the Quran was revealed if Jesus's second coming  which is yet to come is a sign of the hour ???!!!
  

That is because most translations say that "some" of the signs have already come, not all of them.  If all the signs have already come, don't you think that the last hour would have come already?  What would be the point of all the signs when, 1,500 years later, the hour still hasn't come yet?

This is a diversion from the subject of discussion here.However since you brought it up i wud like to clarify that RK was not a prophet.He was a messenger of GOD and there is a difference.Since that is not the topic of discussion here i wouldnt want to elaborate this here.If u need more info u can check it up online or we will discuss this elsewhere inshallah.
 

This is another one of Khalifa's own made-up ideas.  It is true that there is a distinction between a prophet and a messenger, but what is clear is that every messenger was also a prophet (while every prophet was not necessarily a messenger).  Take the examples of Hud, Salih and Shuaib.  All three are mentioned as making prophecies (so they were nabis) but also were referred to as "rasuls" (messengers).  Therefore, by claiming that he was a messenger, you are also claiming that he was a prophet, and a prophet make prophecies. 

What proof did RK bring that he was a messenger of God?  His discovery of a mathematical code?  How is that proof?  He couldn't have done it without the use of computers in the first place.  How does that make him a messenger of God?  


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 April 2010 at 12:28am
Peace,
 
Clearly, you are incorrect because every reputable translation contradicts RK's translation (which is what you are clearly using):
 
I knew you would come up with this answer and that is y i specifically asked you to verify the arabic text and understand the tense of the verse.I challenge you to prove that the verse isnt in the past tense.Just becoz the majority thinks something is right doesnt necessarily make it right,does it?Plus how many of the translators uve mentioned are arabic speakers??Not many if any im sure.FYI ,RK was an Egyptian with Arabic as his mother toungue.
 
You refuse to verify the verse.May be following the majority and the so called scholars is how you determine what is right and wrong in religion.Well its your choice .No compulsion from my side.
 
 
That is because most translations say that "some" of the signs have already come, not all of them.  If all the signs have already come, don't you think that the last hour would have come already?  What would be the point of all the signs when, 1,500 years later, the hour still hasn't come yet?

Look it up again and u will see MOST translations does not say"some" in them.Well it doesnt matter what most translations say coz it can be wrong.So if u look at the arabic text,there is no arabic word with the meaning "some" in the verse.If there is please lemme know.The verse simply says that the signs of the hour have come which means all signs of the hour till the Quran's revelation(which itself is a sign) have already come.Now what are the signs after the Quran's revelation??This has been specifically mentioned in the Quran and they are the "smoke prophecy" and the appearance of GOG and MAGOG.These are the ONLY remaining signs.I fail to understand y GOD chose not to specifically mention Jesus's second coming and leave it for the so called scholars to figure out. 

Below r the translation comparisons.

http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Yusuf_Ali - Yusuf Ali Do they then only wait for the Hour,- that it should come on them of a sudden? But already have come some tokens thereof, and when it (actually) is on them, how can they benefit then by their admonition?
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Pickthal - Pickthal Await they aught save the Hour, that it should come upon them unawares? And the beginnings thereof have already come. But how, when it hath come upon them, can they take their warning?
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Arberry - Arberry Are they looking for aught but the Hour, that it shall come upon them suddenly? Already its tokens have come; so, when it has come to them, how shall they have their Reminder?
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Shakir - Shakir Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them?
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Sarwar - Sarwar Are they waiting for the Hour of Doom to suddenly approach them? Its signs have already appeared. How will they then come to their senses when the Hour itself will approach them?.
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Khalifa - Khalifa Are they waiting until the Hour comes to them suddenly? All the signs thereof have already come. Once the Hour comes to them, how will they benefit from their message?
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Hilali_Khan - Hilali/Khan Do they then await (anything) other than the Hour, that it should come upon them suddenly? But some of its portents (indications and signs) have already come, and when it (actually) is on them, how can they benefit then by their reminder?
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Hilali_Khan_rev - H/K/Saheeh Then do they await except that the Hour should come upon them unexpectedly? But already there have come [some of] its indications. Then what good to them, when it has come, will be their remembrance?
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Malik - Malik Are they waiting for the Hour of Doom to overtake them all of a sudden? Do they not know that its signs have already come and when it will actually overtake them, what chance will they have to benefit by this admonition?[18]
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#QXP - QXP Are they, then, waiting for the Hour that may come upon them suddenly? And the signs of confrontation have already appeared. And when it comes to them, how shall their understanding (of the Truth) will help them?
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Maulana_Ali - Maulana Ali Wait they for aught but the Hour that it should come upon them of a sudden? Now tokens thereof have already come. But how will they have their reminder, when it comes on them?
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Free_Minds - Free Minds So are they waiting until the Hour comes to them suddenly? For its conditions have already been met. But once it comes to them, how will they benefit from their message?
http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Qaribullah - Qaribullah Are they looking except for the Hour to overtake them suddenly? Its signs have come. But how will they be reminded when it has come to them?

http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#J_M_Rodwell - JM Rodwell For what do the infidels wait, but that the Hour come suddenly on them? Already are its signs come, and when it hath come on them indeed, how can they be warned then?

http://www.kavalec.com/quran/caa.html#Asad - Asad Are, then, they [whose hearts are sealed] waiting for the Last Hour - [waiting] that it come upon them of a sudden? But it has already been foretold! [Lit., "its indications have already come": a reference to the many Quranic predictions of its inevitability, as well as to the evidence, accessible to every unprejudiced mind, of the temporal finality of all creation.] And what will their remembrance [of their past sins] avail them, once it has come upon them? [I.e., "of what benefit will be to them, when the Last Hour comes, their dawning awareness of having sinned, and their belated repentance?"]
 
 
 
  


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 April 2010 at 1:51am
This is nothing more than a revisionist interpretation.  It has been the overwhelming majority opinion in the 1400+ years of Islamic history that Jesus did not die.  There would have been no reason for God to say that Jesus did not die but it was made to appear to them, but that he really did die but is not really dead because "the righteous do not die".  One can see the nonsense in such reasoning. 

As far is this world is concerned,Jesus is dead and gone.Do u agree or disagree with that???Look carefully and u will see that in verse 4:157,the claim made by the Jews was that they" KILLED HIM" and not merely that he is DEAD. GOD is only refuting their claim of killing him and not his death in the verse.So now can u show me a verse where GOD says Jesus never died?
 
For certain, they never killed him.*
 
Jesus did die and that is why God says in the following verses that the Jews were required to believe in him before his death
 
"to believe in him before his death."
 
 
God terminates Jesus's life
Look at the below verse and see for yourself  what GOD says.It is very clear that GOD terminated jesus's life and THEN raised him.So your claim that Jesus did not die is nothing but a big lie.Notice the word used in the verse its "Mutawafeek(terminating life)" derived from the word "Mauth(death)" and the word "Raafee'uka" derived from the word "Rafa'a(Lift or Raise)".
 
إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَىٰٓ إِنِّى مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ ڪَفَرُواْ
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.
 
The term "people of the book" was used only when referring to both Christians and Jews and you know it.  It would again not make sense for God to use the title "people of the book" to refer to just the Jews when throughout the Quran God referred to them as the "Children of Israel". 
 
Well there is something called context right??You can clearly see that the context here is the crucification ,the claim of killing Jesus etc in verse [4:157).Who do u think did all that??Ofcourse the Jews and not the followers of Christ.Now just a verse after, that is 4:159 God says that the  people of the book were required to believe in him.So who do u think that is refering to??
 
 

[4:153] The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

Who do you think is the people of the book in the above verses?The Jews or the Christians?? OR BOTH AS U CLAIM???
 
So why didnt GOD say in the Quran that Jesus DIED??The below verse answers the question.[2:154] Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.*  [3:169] Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of GOD are dead; they are alive at their Lord, enjoying His provisions.
 
The Quran also refers to the previous prophets who were killed:
 
Sorry I dont think i understood you clearly here Confused.When did i say Prophets and messengers were not killed??I was only saying that God doesnt mention them as "dead"in the Quran.
 
 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 April 2010 at 4:54am
This is another one of Khalifa's own made-up ideas.  It is true that there is a distinction between a prophet and a messenger, but what is clear is that every messenger was also a prophet (while every prophet was not necessarily a messenger).  Take the examples of Hud, Salih and Shuaib.  All three are mentioned as making prophecies (so they were nabis) but also were referred to as "rasuls" (messengers).  Therefore, by claiming that he was a messenger, you are also claiming that he was a prophet, and a prophet make prophecies. 
 
 
well lets look at the Quranic definitions of a Prophet and messenger.
 
In 3:81 God described exactly the function of the Prophet (Nabi) and the function of the Messenger (Rasoul). Both definitions come in the middle of a very important verse that is dealing with the Messenger of the Covenant. For the sincere believer both definitions are clear and well described by the Teacher of the Quran, the Most Gracious.

"God took a covenant from the PROPHETS, saying, "I will give you the SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM. Afterwards, a MESSENGER will come to CONFIRM all existing scriptures.  You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you." 3:81

Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture. According to the Quran, every "Nabi" is a "Rasoul," but not every "Rasoul" is a "Nabi." It is not logical that God will give a scripture to a prophet, then ask him to keep it exclusively for himself, as stated by some Muslim "scholars" (2:42, 146, 159).
 

The Quranic definition of Prophet, and how all the prophets were given Scripture to deliver, is also confirmed in the following verse:

"The people used to be one community when God sent THE PROPHETS as bearers of good news, as well as warners. HE SENT DOWN WITH THEM THE SCRIPTURE, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes" 2:213

Those who are not sufficiently familiar with the Quran tend to think that Aaron was a "Nabi" as stated in 19:53, who did not receive a scripture. This claim can only be made by those who do not believe the Quran, since God ascertains in 2:213 that all the prophets were sent with the Scripture.  Moreover, the Quran clearly states that the Torah was given specifically  "to both Moses and Aaron" (21:48, 37:117).

In other terms ALL THE PROPHETS are MESSENGERS, but NOT ALL the MESSENGERS are PROPHETS.
 

Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Quran, He mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom.  The association of prophethood and scripture cannot be missed except by those blocked by God from seeing the truth.  The following are some examples:

Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn." 3:79

"Those were the ones to whom we have given the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood. If these people disbelieve, we will substitute others in their place, and the new people will not be disbelievers." 6:89

"We granted him Isaac and Jacob, we assigned to his descendants prophethood and the scriptures, we endowed him with his due recompense in this life, and in the Hereafter he will surely be with the righteous."  29:27

"We have given the Children of Israel the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood, and provided them with good provisions; we bestowed upon them more blessings than any other people."  45:16

"We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants prophethood and the scripture.  Some of them were guided, while many were wicked."  57:26

Perhaps one of the strongest indications in the Quran that the words prophet and messenger do not have the same meaning, is found in the following verse:

"We did not send before you any MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. GOD then nullifies what the devil has done. GOD perfects His revelations. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise."  22:52

If the words prophet and messenger had the same meaning God would not be saying "MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET" ...... would He ?  Had the two words had exactly the same meaning , then mentioning one of them would have been sufficient.

The Quran is clear that EVERY PROPHET (NABI) IS A MESSENGER (RASOUL) BUT NOT EVERY MESSENGER IS A PROPHET.


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 13 April 2010 at 4:33pm
I knew you would come up with this answer and that is y i specifically asked you to verify the arabic text and understand the tense of the verse.I challenge you to prove that the verse isnt in the past tense.Just becoz the majority thinks something is right doesnt necessarily make it right,does it?Plus how many of the translators uve mentioned are arabic speakers??Not many if any im sure.FYI ,RK was an Egyptian with Arabic as his mother toungue.


Well, wait a minute.  If the majority of translators have translated it as not being in the past tense, and you claim that it is citing only RK as your proof, then the burden of proof is on you to prove your claim.  Your other question makes no sense.  If these translators did not know Arabic, how would they have translated the Quran and why would they even try? 

You refuse to verify the verse.May be following the majority and the so called scholars is how you determine what is right and wrong in religion.Well its your choice .No compulsion from my side.


It is not up to you to determine who is a scholar and who is not.  I have pointed out that your claim is not supported by the scholars.  Your only support is a false messenger who provided no evidence that he was sent by God and contradicts everything that the Quran and Sunnah have laid down.

Look it up again and u will see MOST translations does not say"some" in them.Well it doesnt matter what most translations say coz it can be wrong.So if u look at the arabic text,there is no arabic word with the meaning "some" in the verse.If there is please lemme know.The verse simply says that the signs of the hour have come which means all signs of the hour till the Quran's revelation(which itself is a sign) have already come.Now what are the signs after the Quran's revelation??This has been specifically mentioned in the Quran and they are the "smoke prophecy" and the appearance of GOG and MAGOG.These are the ONLY remaining signs.I fail to understand y GOD chose not to specifically mention Jesus's second coming and leave it for the so called scholars to figure out.


Of those translations, only Khalifa says that "all" of them have come.  The others only say something along the line of "the tokens or signs have come", but there is no indication whether all of them have come.  Think about it.  Wouldn't Khalifa's coming be a major sign as well, if he was a messenger of God?  And yet, he claims that all of the signs were already shown.  You are also interjecting your own interpretations by saying that it is referring to all the signs up to the Quran's revelation.  But it does not say that does it?  So then, what are you basing that on?


As far is this world is concerned,Jesus is dead and gone.Do u agree or disagree with that???Look carefully and u will see that in verse 4:157,the claim made by the Jews was that they" KILLED HIM" and not merely that he is DEAD. GOD is only refuting their claim of killing him and not his death in the verse.So now can u show me a verse where GOD says Jesus never died?
    

What do I care about what the rest of the world (the unbelievers) thinks?  Is that your best argument? 

If Jesus did indeed die, then he was killed by the Jews and Romans.  End of story.  It does not make any sense for the Quran to complicate the issue by saying that he did not die but it was made to appear that way but he did actually die.  You are going in circles here.

If the Jews did not kill him, how did he die?  Of a heart attack? 


Look at the below verse and see for yourself  what GOD says.It is very clear that GOD terminated jesus's life and THEN raised him.So your claim that Jesus did not die is nothing but a big lie.Notice the word used in the verse its "Mutawafeek(terminating life)" derived from the word "Mauth(death)" and the word "Raafee'uka" derived from the word "Rafa'a(Lift or Raise)".
 
إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَىٰٓ إِنِّى مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ ڪَفَرُواْ
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.


Again with Khalifa's translation.  This is called circular reasoning:  to prove what Khalifa said was true, you quote Khalifa's own translation.  You provide no evidence that "mutawafeeka" means to terminate life.  Mutawafeeka is not derived from "maut" but from "wafaat", which can mean both death or sleep. http://www.salafyink.com/quran/What_intended_by_Waffah.pdf - [1]      

Well there is something called context right??You can clearly see that the context here is the crucification ,the claim of killing Jesus etc in verse [4:157).Who do u think did all that??Ofcourse the Jews and not the followers of Christ.Now just a verse after, that is 4:159 God says that the  people of the book were required to believe in him.So who do u think that is refering to??

[4:153] The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

Who do you think is the people of the book in the above verses?The Jews or the Christians?? OR BOTH AS U CLAIM???
        

True, I stand corrected.  However, as you were talking about context, Jesus' followers (Christians) are also included in 4:159.  To not include them along with the Jews would not make sense.  The Christians believe that he was killed and then resurrected from the dead.  Would they also not need to believe that this was not the case and that Jesus was raised to God?  Of course they do.  Therefore, in this case, "people of the book" refers to both Jews and Christians. 

Sorry I dont think i understood you clearly here Confused.When did i say Prophets and messengers were not killed??I was only saying that God doesnt mention them as "dead"in the Quran.


But the question was why did not God also make a distinction with them, as he did with Jesus?  Why not also say that those slain prophets were also "alive"?  Why not make a similar claim with regards to them as with Jesus? 

In 3:81 God described exactly the function of the Prophet (Nabi) and the function of the Messenger (Rasoul). Both definitions come in the middle of a very important verse that is dealing with the Messenger of the Covenant. For the sincere believer both definitions are clear and well described by the Teacher of the Quran, the Most Gracious.
 

How does this change anything that I said?  You still have not disproven that every messenger (rasul) is also a prophet (nabi).   

Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture. According to the Quran, every "Nabi" is a "Rasoul," but not every "Rasoul" is a "Nabi." It is not logical that God will give a scripture to a prophet, then ask him to keep it exclusively for himself, as stated by some Muslim "scholars" (2:42, 146, 159).
 

Not at all.  First of all, the verse refers to "a messenger", meaning a specific messenger (in this case, Muhammad (pbuh)).  And we know this from 3:84, which mentions some of the messengers before Muhammad, but does not mention him.  Moreover, Muhammad (pbuh) did receive a book, so your claim that a messenger only confirms the scripture is clearly false.  While the prophets also got books, they were distinct from the books given to messengers, in that the books of the prophets were just that: prophecies.  3:81 says this clearly ("confirming what is with you").  The books of the messengers have more than just prophecies.  They also have laws, as in the case of Torah, the Injil and the Quran.  The Zabur did not have laws, but were only prophecies or prayers.  Do you see the difference?

So therefore, Khalifa contradicts the Quran and purposely tries to alter the meaning to support his own claims.  

I also asked you what proof Khalifa provided that he was a messenger of God.  Discovering a mathematical code using man-made technology and not his own abilities would not serve as evidence.
  



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 2:26am
Peace,

Well, wait a minute.  If the majority of translators have translated it as not being in the past tense, and you claim that it is citing only RK as your proof, then the burden of proof is on you to prove your claim.  Your other question makes no sense.  If these translators did not know Arabic, how would they have translated the Quran and why would they even try? 

When did i say RK is my proof? Ive requested you to verify the arabic text and see for yourself which one is the correct translation.Im not here to prove that  RK is right or wrong.He may be wrong or may be right.I dont consider anyone infalliable.Im not here to defend any person either so lemme make that very clear to you.Plus Rk certainly isnt the topic of discussion here.And since your 1400 + years opinions and understandings are being questioned here it is you who shud be keen to prove  me wrong.The most important thing is ,which translation is right and which is wrong. And the best way to do is check the arabic text yourself and show me that it isnt in the past tense.Why dont you follow a simple commandment from GOD and just verify.

Crucial Advice

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

And i never said that the other translators are totally ignorant of Arabic or dont know Arabic at all!You are simply exaggerating my friend.Since you wrote this in your previous post"In light of all these translations, along comes Mr. Khalifa and decides he knows better." i was only trying to point out that Rk was an Arabic speaking person and so may be ,just may be he knows better!!

If Jesus did indeed die, then he was killed by the Jews and Romans.  End of story.

Wrong!As u can clearly see in 3:55 God is the one who terminated his life in this world and raised his soul.What was left was a seemingly living body on the cross and it was this seemingly living body that the disbelievers were torturing and claimed they killed.There is no other explanation to it.Now check out the below verse for further clarification.Look what Jesus himself says.
 
[5:117] "I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: 'You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my lifeفَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيۡتَنِى,You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.
 
So again clearly Jesus did die in this world but wasnt killed as the disbelievers claimed. 
 
It does not make any sense for the Quran to complicate the issue by saying that he did not die but it was made to appear that way but he did actually die.
 
The Quran never says that he did not die.The Quran clearly says that GOD terminated his life.The Quran only says that he was not "KILLED"!I dont see any complication in that.
 
 
Again with Khalifa's translation.  This is called circular reasoning:  to prove what Khalifa said was true, you quote Khalifa's own translation.  You provide no evidence that "mutawafeeka" means to terminate life.  Mutawafeeka is not derived from "maut" but from "wafaat", which can mean both death or sleep.
 
I have given you the arabic text to verify if the translation is accurate.Who cares whose translation it is??Is it a correct one??Isnt that what u should be focussing on???And i agree with u on Mutawafeeka.U are right that it is dervied from wafaat and considering the context of the verse it is definitely death and not sleep.God wouldnt put Jesus to sleep to rid him of the disbelievers...???Does that make any sense??So it is definitely termination of life what GOD means in the verse.
 
 
However, as you were talking about context, Jesus' followers (Christians) are also included in 4:159.  To not include them along with the Jews would not make sense.  The Christians believe that he was killed and then resurrected from the dead.  Would they also not need to believe that this was not the case and that Jesus was raised to God?
 
I really dont think that the verses or the context has anything to do with the Christians' claim of resurrection of Jesus.The verses and the context of the verses are clearly dealing with the Jews' claim of KILLING Jesus. The Christians as you urself said do believe in his death.Check out the following verses in the same Surah and tell me if the whole context of it has to do anything with the Christians ..the followers of christ.Who do u think GOD is addressing here in these verses??All of it ,till  verse159 deifinitely points out to the Jews and definitely not the followers of Christ.And also did u notice verse 160????.GOD particularly takes the name of the people of the scripture being addressed in this particular context.Do u think that is a coincidence??God has no coincidence.Subhanallah!

[4:153] The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.

[4:154] And we raised Mount Sinai above them, as we took their covenant. And we said to them, "Enter the gate humbly." And we said to them, "Do not desecrate the Sabbath." Indeed, we took from them a solemn covenant.

4:155] (They incurred condemnation) for violating their covenant, rejecting GOD's revelations, killing the prophets unjustly, and for saying, "Our minds are made up!" In fact, GOD is the One who sealed their minds, due to their disbelief, and this is why they fail to believe, except rarely.

[4:156] (They are condemned) for disbelieving and uttering about Mary a gross lie.

4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified himthey were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*

[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.

[4:160] Due to their transgressions, we prohibited for the Jews good foods that used to be lawful for them; also for consistently repelling from the path of GOD.

 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 4:45am

Of those translations, only Khalifa says that "all" of them have come.  The others only say something along the line of "the tokens or signs have come", but there is no indication whether all of them have come.  Think about it.  Wouldn't Khalifa's coming be a major sign as well, if he was a messenger of God?  And yet, he claims that all of the signs were already shown.  You are also interjecting your own interpretations by saying that it is referring to all the signs up to the Quran's revelation.  But it does not say that does it?  So then, what are you basing that on?

I agree that its my own interpretation.This is becoz i do not see "some" or "all" in the arabic text of the verse.As far as i see it,the revelation of the final scripture of GOD is a major sign of the last hour.So if in the Quran GOD says the signs of the hour have already come,it should be the Quran and signs before it.The signs after the Quran's revelation are specifically mentioned in it as i pointed out in my earlier post.I do not see Jesus's second coming as a sign in the Quran.The indications of that which were mentioned here in this forum are utterly false.The Quranic verses have been purposefully mistranslated and misinterpreted by some to suite their theory of Jesus's second coming.Now if u have a better understanding of the real meaning of this verse,please do share.

The advent of God's messenger of the covenant has been prophecised in the Quran.The Quran does not classify it as a sign of the hour by any means.So i disagree with your opinion .i wud like to leave at that so as to again stick to the original topic of discussion here.
 
But the question was why did not God also make a distinction with them, as he did with Jesus?  Why not also say that those slain prophets were also "alive"?  Why not make a similar claim with regards to them as with Jesus?
 
[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified himthey were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*
 
Another translation for your perusal.
 
 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
 
So as u can see in the above verse,concerning Jesus's death there was dispute,disagreement and doubt.That is why GOD specifically chose the issue of Jesus's death and the claim of killing him and cleared this major misconception through the Quran.


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 6:38am

.While the prophets also got books, they were distinct from the books given to messengers, in that the books of the prophets were just that: prophecies.  3:81 says this clearly ("confirming what is with you").  The books of the messengers have more than just prophecies.  They also have laws, as in the case of Torah, the Injil and the Quran.  The Zabur did not have laws, but were only prophecies or prayers.

I would like clear Quranic verses as reference for the above understanding plz .I havent seen in the Quran that Prophets have only prophecies or prayers and Messengers have laws +prophecies +prayers.Also i would like to also see a verse in the Quran where it says Zabur(Psalms) did not have laws and were only prophecies or prayers.




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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 14 April 2010 at 7:15am
I also asked you what proof Khalifa provided that he was a messenger of God.  Discovering a mathematical code using man-made technology and not his own abilities would not serve as evidence.
 
Yes,the discovery of the mathematical miracle in the Quran is the Proof of his messengership.The computer and the Quran was with a lot of  other people at that time and not just Dr Khalifa.Did any of those people find anything in the Quran???I dont think so.Plus i would also like to know if any messenger brought any miracle  with his OWN abilities???Take examples of Jesus,Moses etc.. did they do all those miracles with their own abilities???
 
Many of those who are rejecting the miracle now were once those who were eagerly propogating the miracle around the world.Many magazines and books were circulated through out the muslim world calling it a great discovery.Mr.Ahmed Deedat himself propogated it and called Dr Khalifa a great servant of God. However,the purpose of the revelation of this miracle by GOD was not to bring fame to Dr Khalifa.The miracle has a greater purpose and the purposes are clearly stated in the Quran in Surah 74.If the below has nothing to do with the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran,one will have to answer how the number 19 or the angels in hell disturb the disbelievers,convince the Christians and Jews,strengthen the faith of the faithful,remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Jews and Christians,expose those who harbour doubts in their hearts etc.And what  and why are there Initials in the Quran??Why did God spell Mecca as Becca in the Quran???Dr Khalifa was blessed with many such secrets in the Quran.These informations were there in the Quran for over 1400 years.
 

[74:30] Over it is nineteen.*

[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19)

(1) to disturb the disbelievers,

(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),

(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,

(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and

(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

The hypocrisy ,idol worship and deception of many were exposed when  many truths from the discovery of this miracle  came out.This is why these disbelievers reject it.As mentioned in the Quran,Yes many were disturbed.Many who harboured doubts were then exposed.Many Christians and Jews have accepted and believed in the Quran and its miracle and  its still happening around the world.Many who had already believed in the Quran increased in faith after witnessing the miracle.This miracle is very profoud and is perpetual.The mathematical miracle of the Quran confirms the messengership of Dr Khalifa. 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 15 April 2010 at 4:37pm
When did i say RK is my proof? Ive requested you to verify the arabic text and see for yourself which one is the correct translation.Im not here to prove that  RK is right or wrong.He may be wrong or may be right.I dont consider anyone infalliable.Im not here to defend any person either so lemme make that very clear to you.Plus Rk certainly isnt the topic of discussion here.And since your 1400 + years opinions and understandings are being questioned here it is you who shud be keen to prove  me wrong.The most important thing is ,which translation is right and which is wrong. And the best way to do is check the arabic text yourself and show me that it isnt in the past tense.Why dont you follow a simple commandment from GOD and just verify.


So why don't you verify it?  You are the one making the claim that it was in the past tense, not me!  So, go ahead and prove it yourself!  Why are you asking me to verify it? 

And don't tell me about what God says.  Follow your own advice and then lecture someone else.


And i never said that the other translators are totally ignorant of Arabic or dont know Arabic at all!You are simply exaggerating my friend.Since you wrote this in your previous post"In light of all these translations, along comes Mr. Khalifa and decides he knows better." i was only trying to point out that Rk was an Arabic speaking person and so may be ,just may be he knows better!!


You asked "how many of translators...are Arabic speakers".  I interpreted that as you saying that those translators don't know Arabic, which of course makes no sense.

Wrong!As u can clearly see in 3:55 God is the one who terminated his life in this world and raised his soul.What was left was a seemingly living body on the cross and it was this seemingly living body that the disbelievers were torturing and claimed they killed.There is no other explanation to it.Now check out the below verse for further clarification.Look what Jesus himself says.


I already provided a refutation of this claim.  The verse does not say that God terminated his life.  The word in question can have different meanings. Seemingly living body?  What does that mean? 

[5:117] "I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: 'You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my lifeفَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيۡتَنِى,You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.
 So again clearly Jesus did die in this world but wasnt killed as the disbelievers claimed.
 

The word in question is "tawaffa" which means to "take" and it can be in death or in sleep. http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=295 - [1]   It does not say that God "terminated his life". 


The Quran never says that he did not die.The Quran clearly says that GOD terminated his life.The Quran only says that he was not "KILLED"!I dont see any complication in that.
 

No, it doesn't!  Only you and a very small minority believe this.  If his life had been terminated, Surah 4:157-159 would have been the perfect place to say that, but it does not say that.  Verse 158 says it clearly: Allah took him to Himself.  Nothing is said about terminating his life. 

I have given you the arabic text to verify if the translation is accurate.Who cares whose translation it is??Is it a correct one??Isnt that what u should be focussing on???And i agree with u on Mutawafeeka.U are right that it is dervied from wafaat and considering the context of the verse it is definitely death and not sleep.God wouldnt put Jesus to sleep to rid him of the disbelievers...???Does that make any sense??So it is definitely termination of life what GOD means in the verse.
      

Why not?  Perhaps when Jesus fell asleep, God took him up and then his body or someone else was crucified.  Therefore, He rid him of the unbelievers.  What is so hard to comprehend here?


I really dont think that the verses or the context has anything to do with the Christians' claim of resurrection of Jesus.The verses and the context of the verses are clearly dealing with the Jews' claim of KILLING Jesus. The Christians as you urself said do believe in his death.Check out the following verses in the same Surah and tell me if the whole context of it has to do anything with the Christians ..the followers of christ.Who do u think GOD is addressing here in these verses??All of it ,till  verse159 deifinitely points out to the Jews and definitely not the followers of Christ.And also did u notice verse 160????.GOD particularly takes the name of the people of the scripture being addressed in this particular context.Do u think that is a coincidence??God has no coincidence.Subhanallah!
 

Why would God also not want the Christians to accept the truth, especially since at the time of the revelation of the Quran, the majority of his followers were not Jews, but gentile Christians.  The Christians also believe that the Jews killed Jesus.  That was the origin of Christian prejudice and hatred against Jews for centuries! 

Even if it is referring only to the Jews, it is not saying anything contrary to the standard Islamic theology, as you have failed to show that verse 159 was in the past tense.  So, all it would be saying is that the Jews must believe in him before his death, not that they were required to believe before his death.


I agree that its my own interpretation.This is becoz i do not see "some" or "all" in the arabic text of the verse.As far as i see it,the revelation of the final scripture of GOD is a major sign of the last hour.


That is true.  The Quran's revelation was a major sign of the last hour, but there are many more that have yet to be fulfilled.  If they had all been fulfilled, don't you think that the last hour would have come by now?

So if in the Quran GOD says the signs of the hour have already come,it should be the Quran and signs before it.The signs after the Quran's revelation are specifically mentioned in it as i pointed out in my earlier post.


He does not say that at all.  He says, according to most translations, that "tokens" or the "beginning" or "some" have already come.  How does that mean that "all" have come? 

I do not see Jesus's second coming as a sign in the Quran.The indications of that which were mentioned here in this forum are utterly false.The Quranic verses have been purposefully mistranslated and misinterpreted by some to suite their theory of Jesus's second coming.Now if u have a better understanding of the real meaning of this verse,please do share.


They have been mistranslated only by deceivers and liars who claim they are God's messengers.  Whether Qadianis or Submitters, they all mistranslate the Holy Quran for their own ends.

The advent of God's messenger of the covenant has been prophecised in the Quran.The Quran does not classify it as a sign of the hour by any means.So i disagree with your opinion .i wud like to leave at that so as to again stick to the original topic of discussion here.


Where has it been prophesied?  And if it was, why were people not expecting his arrival?  This is another false claim by heretics.  There is no mention of any future messengers to come after Muhammad in the Quran.  And if there was, those messengers would have brought new scripture, since Muhammad was a messenger and he brought scripture.  Jesus was a messenger and he brought scripture.  Moses was a messenger and he brought scripture.  But, the Quran itself says that it is the final scripture, so the idea of other messengers after Muhammad (pbuh) is ridiculous and blasphemous.

So as u can see in the above verse,concerning Jesus's death there was dispute,disagreement and doubt.That is why GOD specifically chose the issue of Jesus's death and the claim of killing him and cleared this major misconception through the Quran.


This is fine, but my question is regarding your initial assertion that God was explaining that the righteous don't actually die, but are living.  Why did God also not say something similar with regards to the other prophets and messengers who were slain by the unbelievers.

I would like clear Quranic verses as reference for the above understanding plz .I havent seen in the Quran that Prophets have only prophecies or prayers and Messengers have laws +prophecies +prayers.Also i would like to also see a verse in the Quran where it says Zabur(Psalms) did not have laws and were only prophecies or prayers.


Well, compare what the Quran says about the Torah and what it says about the Zabur.  "Tawrat" literally means "law", does it not?  What does "Zabur" mean?  Songs or "psalms", right?

Furthermore, I forgot to point this out in my last response.  The final proof that a messenger also received scripture is in the fact that Muhammad (pbuh) is called both nabi and rasul in the Quran...and he received scripture...the Quran!!!  
 

Yes,the discovery of the mathematical miracle in the Quran is the Proof of his messengership.The computer and the Quran was with a lot of  other people at that time and not just Dr Khalifa.Did any of those people find anything in the Quran???I dont think so.Plus i would also like to know if any messenger brought any miracle  with his OWN abilities???Take examples of Jesus,Moses etc.. did they do all those miracles with their own abilities???


Yeah, because most other people were more concerned with its message and not some "hidden code".  They would not waste time quibbling with such ideas. 

So, now you are comparing Khalifa to the great messengers of God???  AstagfirAllah.  And it was not his own abilities!!  He used a computer for God's sake!!  If he had done it without the use of computers, then you would have a point to make.  Finding a code using man-made technology is not a "miracle".  What nonsense you utter.  If that were the case, than the proponents of the Bible Code should also be regarded as "messengers". 


Many of those who are rejecting the miracle now were once those who were eagerly propogating the miracle around the world.Many magazines and books were circulated through out the muslim world calling it a great discovery.Mr.Ahmed Deedat himself propogated it and called Dr Khalifa a great servant of God. However,the purpose of the revelation of this miracle by GOD was not to bring fame to Dr Khalifa.The miracle has a greater purpose and the purposes are clearly stated in the Quran in Surah 74.If the below has nothing to do with the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran,one will have to answer how the number 19 or the angels in hell disturb the disbelievers,convince the Christians and Jews,strengthen the faith of the faithful,remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Jews and Christians,expose those who harbour doubts in their hearts etc.And what  and why are there Initials in the Quran??Why did God spell Mecca as Becca in the Quran???Dr Khalifa was blessed with many such secrets in the Quran.These informations were there in the Quran for over 1400 years.


No one is denying that there may be a mathematical anomaly in the scripture.  Maybe there is and maybe there isn't.  The question is how does it serve as proof of Khalifa's claims, which clearly contradict the Quran itself?  He claimed to be a messenger, and yet did not meet the conditions of a messenger and therefore exposed himself as a liar.  Discovering a code does nothing to remove the cloak of unbelief.

What does the number of angels in Hell have to do with a code?  If God says that there are 19 angels in Hell, why should that cause someone to go looking for a code?  Confused

Furthermore, by asking what these verses mean or what significance they have, you are implying that Muhammad (pbuh) had no idea what was meant, because there is no evidence that he understood these verses as referring to some "hidden code".  Do you think Muhammad (pbuh) asked what these verses meant??  If there had ever been a clue about a hidden code, people from the very beginning of Islam would have been looking for it.  They would have poured over the text like Newton did with the Bible, looking for codes when they should have been reading the scripture itself and learning from its wisdom.  Imagine Khalifa sitting in his office looking for codes...some messenger...     



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 16 April 2010 at 5:40am
So why don't you verify it?  You are the one making the claim that it was in the past tense, not me!  So, go ahead and prove it yourself!  Why are you asking me to verify it? 
 
Ok ,i will give a simple method for anyone(Arab or Non Arab) to verify if the verse is in the past tense or not.I have verified it myself online using a Google translator.You may use any other tools u may like and im sure u will get the same result.So Select an Arabic to English translator and then put the arabic text(4:159) وَإِن مِّنۡ أَهۡلِ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ إِلَّا لَيُؤۡمِنَنَّ بِهِۦ in it and u will see that the result  is
 
 
arabic to English translation
< id=tts_flash code=http://d
It was the people of the Book but must believe in him


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 16 April 2010 at 6:07am
As u see the verse is clearly in the past tense and not present or future tense.And in proper English  u know it means that the people of the book was to believe in him before his death.
 
Therefore i do not see any reason now for anyone to claim that Jesus is coming and to continue this discussion.
 
Peace!
 
 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 16 April 2010 at 10:25am

Haris, i did not go thru the discussion, but can tell you that the ayah you are discussing above is in Imperfect tense. It is not past tense. Alhamdulillah, i know little arabic grammar. By the way the translations in english is also in present tense. I don't know whom you referred to.

" And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, --"

Word yu'minoona is in imperfect tense Its not in past tense





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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 16 April 2010 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by haris30432

As u see the verse is clearly in the past tense and not present or future tense.And in proper English  u know it means that the people of the book was to believe in him before his death.
 
Therefore i do not see any reason now for anyone to claim that Jesus is coming and to continue this discussion.
 
Peace!


Well then, the conclusion here is don't rely on internet translators!  Why, you ask?  Here is why:

According to http://www.listenarabic.com/translate/ - www.listenarabic.com , the translation of
وَاِنۡ مِّنۡ اَهۡلِ الۡكِتٰبِ اِلَّا لَيُؤۡمِنَنَّ بِهٖ قَبۡلَ مَوۡتِهٖ‌ۚ وَيَوۡمَ الۡقِيٰمَةِ يَكُوۡنُ عَلَيۡهِمۡ شَهِيۡدًا‌ۚ is "And from the people of the Book but must believe in him before his death and the Day will be a witness against them".  This contradicts your translator.  Therefore, I conclude that utilizing internet translator software will not help us with this issue.  The fact still remains that the vast majority of translators read the text one way and only RK read it another way


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 17 April 2010 at 3:24am
 
The fact still remains that the vast majority of translators read the text one way and only RK read it another way

Right.Several translators seem to follow this understanding and their translations say something to the effect that "everyone from the People of the Book will (certainly) believe in him ...". However, why would Jesus be a "witness against them" when they believe in him? Should he not be a witness against those who do NOT believe in him?

 
Pickthall :There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them
 
 
 
Peace!
 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 18 April 2010 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by haris30432

 
The fact still remains that the vast majority of translators read the text one way and only RK read it another way

Right.Several translators seem to follow this understanding and their translations say something to the effect that "everyone from the People of the Book will (certainly) believe in him ...". However, why would Jesus be a "witness against them" when they believe in him? Should he not be a witness against those who do NOT believe in him?

 
Pickthall :There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them
Peace!


Yes, some translations are unclear or ambiguous.  What the ayat is actually saying is that Jesus will be a witness of what actually happened on the day of the crucifixion, and since the majority of the people of the book believe that he was killed, he shall be a witness against them. 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 19 April 2010 at 11:12am

Yes, some translations are unclear or ambiguous. 

The translation that i put in my previous post is one of those whom u called a "reputed" translation.I wonder how it became unclear or ambigous all of a sudden.And as far as i see all of the "reputed" translators have translated the verse almost similarly.The verse as translated by the majority does not appear to be dealing with those who did not,do not or will not believe in him or those who believe that he was killed.It simply appears to be saying that all of the POB will believe in him before Jesus dies.And as far as i see from your earlier posts, you too seem to have had the same understanding of the verse.

What the ayat is actually saying is that Jesus will be a witness of what actually happened on the day of the crucifixion, and since the majority of the people of the book believe that he was killed, he shall be a witness against them.

Well if Jesus returns,then the majority of POB should be able to believe that he wasnt killed right??Isnt that one of the major purposes of his return????And the translations say that everyone of them will believe in him.So then y would he be a witness against them on the day of Judgement???

I already provided a refutation of this claim.  The verse does not say that God terminated his life.  The word in question can have different meanings.

The word in question is derived from Wafaat meaning death.You say that it also means sleep but does that apply to the situation and context of the verse???.Absolutely not!Unless ofcourse Jesus was in bed and GOD put him to sleep and raised him to himself when the Jews were coming to get him.Jesus was on the cross to be crucified and killed but before the Jews could do that GOD terminated his life and raised his soul to him. Therefore logically the word Mutawafeeka has to be " putting to death" or terminate life.

If soul is taken away from a person, it is nothing but death.  The problem arises with regards to  this verse, when Muslims refuse to interpret the meaning of "wafat" as death.  Irony is that  all scholars  who translated the Holy Quran do agree "wafat" means death.   Each and every scholar translated the word "wafat" as  death in at least 20 different instances in their translations.  However,  in this particular verse, they interpreted the meaning as ‘take away' and insinuate physical ascension.

The most correct meaning of the word "wafat"  is death.  Wherever in the Holy Quran the word "wafat" is used, all these translators derived the meaning as death, except in this verse 3:55, where  they don't see "wafat"  as death!!!!  What is the problem here? Why are they contradicting the meaning of 'wafat'? What stops them from translating the words of Allah in its true context?  They are seeing imaginary words only to support heresays they learned during their childhood. 

Here are some of the verses in the Holy Quran where Allah used the word "wafat".  The verses are 2:234, 2:240, 3:193, 4:15, 4:97, 6:61, 7:37, 7:126, 8:50, 10:46, 10:104, 12:101, 13:40, 16:28, 16:32, 16:70, 39:42, 40:67, 40:77, 47:27 etc.  In  each of the instances, all these scholars translated the word "wafat" as death, or a word very close to death but none of them used a word to mean take away in alive condition.

 

 



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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 20 April 2010 at 3:48pm
The translation that i put in my previous post is one of those whom u called a "reputed" translation.I wonder how it became unclear or ambigous all of a sudden.And as far as i see all of the "reputed" translators have translated the verse almost similarly.


Just because a translation is considered reputable does not mean it is 100& error-proof.  Having said that, I still think that Pickthall's translation is much more reputable and reliable than Khalifa's.  I believe that Khalifa's translation is simply inferior to the many others and that has been proven in this discussion.  When dealing with verses like 4:159, looking at other translations can help us come to a consensus, and keeping the topic of the discussion at heart, we see that the consensus is that it is not in the past tense, which is what you claimed.

The verse as translated by the majority does not appear to be dealing with those who did not,do not or will not believe in him or those who believe that he was killed.It simply appears to be saying that all of the POB will believe in him before Jesus dies.And as far as i see from your earlier posts, you too seem to have had the same understanding of the verse.


I disagree.  Let's look at some of the most well-known translations [my comments in bold]:

Yusuf Ali: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- [this says plainly that the people of the book must believe in Jesus, and if they don't, he will be a witness against them]

Shabbir Ahmed: Everyone among the People of the Book must believe before dying, in the truth just stated. Jesus will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection (that he was neither crucified nor raised to the heavens. God is not confined to the Heavens). [Same idea as Yusuf Ali]

Asad: Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus; and on the Day of Resurrection he [himself] shall bear witness to the truth against them. [In his commentary, Asad says the following: "Lit., 'who does not believe in him before his death'. According to this verse, all believing Jews and Christians realize at the moment of their death that Jesus was truly a prophet of God - having been neither an impostor nor "the son of God" (Zamakhshari)."  So, according to Asad, the verse is saying that the unbelievers among the people of the book realize too late the truth about Jesus, and hence, he will be a witness against them.  The idea is the same as in Yusuf Ali and Ahmed, although the wording is different.]

Hilali-Khan: And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them. [Again, the same idea...namely that the people of the book must believe and if they don't, Jesus will testify against them].

Some of the translations do go along the same path as Pickthall and Shakir, but even then, they contradict Khalifa.  So, the fact still remains that Khalifa's translation has no support, and your argument was that Khalifa's translation was more accurate, was it not?

Well if Jesus returns,then the majority of POB should be able to believe that he wasnt killed right??Isnt that one of the major purposes of his return????And the translations say that everyone of them will believe in him.So then y would he be a witness against them on the day of Judgement???


They may or they may not.  How should I know?  It certainly would make sense that they would believe in him, and hence that explains why Pickthall, Shakir and others say that all of them will believe in him and he will be a witness against what they used to believe.  Regardless, this only disproves Khalifa even more, as all of the translations, despite the differences in the wording, agree on one thing: that the verse is speaking of the future, not the past.       

The word in question is derived from Wafaat meaning death.You say that it also means sleep but does that apply to the situation and context of the verse???.Absolutely not!Unless ofcourse Jesus was in bed and GOD put him to sleep and raised him to himself when the Jews were coming to get him.Jesus was on the cross to be crucified and killed but before the Jews could do that GOD terminated his life and raised his soul to him. Therefore logically the word Mutawafeeka has to be " putting to death" or terminate life.


You are only speculating here.  How do you know that God was speaking to Jesus while he was on the cross?  The verse does not say that!  For all we know, this is referring to before he was even arrested!  God could have told Jesus of His plans days before his arrest.

If soul is taken away from a person, it is nothing but death.  The problem arises with regards to  this verse, when Muslims refuse to interpret the meaning of "wafat" as death.  Irony is that  all scholars  who translated the Holy Quran do agree "wafat" means death.   Each and every scholar translated the word "wafat" as  death in at least 20 different instances in their translations.  However,  in this particular verse, they interpreted the meaning as ‘take away' and insinuate physical ascension.
 

By all means, show any examples.  In light of the other verses about Jesus, which say that he did not die, that he will be a witness etc., it does not make sense to say that he died in this verse.  Therefore, the only other possibility is that his soul was taken while he was in a state of slumber, and therefore, he is not dead.

Here are some of the verses in the Holy Quran where Allah used the word "wafat".  The verses are 2:234, 2:240, 3:193, 4:15, 4:97, 6:61, 7:37, 7:126, 8:50, 10:46, 10:104, 12:101, 13:40, 16:28, 16:32, 16:70, 39:42, 40:67, 40:77, 47:27 etc.  In  each of the instances, all these scholars translated the word "wafat" as death, or a word very close to death but none of them used a word to mean take away in alive condition.


You forgot 6:60, which refutes your argument:

وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِى يَتَوَفَّىٰكُم بِٱلَّيْلِ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا جَرَحْتُم بِٱلنَّهَارِ ثُمَّ يَبْعَثُكُمْ فِيهِ لِيُقْضَىٰٓ أَجَلٌۭ مُّسَمًّۭى ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَيْهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ

"It is He who doth take your souls by night, and hath knowledge of all that ye have done by day: by day doth He raise you up again; that a term appointed be fulfilled; In the end unto Him will be your return; then will He show you the truth of all that ye did."

Do you think that it should be translated as "It is He who terminates your life by night...by day He raises you up again"?  That would make no sense.  Therefore, it is clear that the word can mean both death and sleep. 

Before I close, I notice that you have not responded to some of the other points I raised, especially regarding the difference between a prophet and a messenger.  What is your response to those points? 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 21 April 2010 at 11:42am
Just because a translation is considered reputable does not mean it is 100& error-proof.  Having said that, I still think that Pickthall's translation is much more reputable and reliable than Khalifa's.  I believe that Khalifa's translation is simply inferior to the many others and that has been proven in this discussion.  When dealing with verses like 4:159, looking at other translations can help us come to a consensus, and keeping the topic of the discussion at heart, we see that the consensus is that it is not in the past tense, which is what you claimed.
 
You claimed that majority of the translators have interpreted it in one way but as far as i see there is clearly a difference in understanding  of this  verse amoung the  majority of scholars.Some translated it as "will believe and some as "must believe".I dont see how these interpretations become one way??!You called all of them reputed first(I cant still understand on what basis) and then u said some are unclear and ambiguous and now you are saying that they are not 100 percent perfect.Do us a favour and compare the translations of the so called reputed translators first and then tell us which one is the correct one.
 
 
Yusuf Ali: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- [this says plainly that the people of the book must believe in Jesus, and if they don't, he will be a witness against them]
 
 
The actual Arabic text  doesnt say anything like " and if they dont believe".You are adding words to the verse  and trying to make sense to the translation.The fact remains that the translations done by the majority makes absolutely no sense.In the first part of their translation of the verse, they put "must believe" or"will believe or whatever,which does not at all make any sense since the second part of the verse simply says "he will be a witness against them".If Jesus returns ,i dont see a reason y the POB shouldnt believe in him.Or are u saying that some amoung the POB will not believe in him????!!Does verse say that???!It is  therefore very clear and anyone with minimum inteligence will understand that the second part will only make perfect sense leaving no confusion, if the first part of the verse was translated as  something like"Everyone amoung the POB was to believe in him.

 It certainly would make sense that they would believe in him, and hence that explains why Pickthall, Shakir and others say that all of them will believe in him and he will be a witness against what they used to believe. 
 
All of them will believe???Well God didnt say that so i wonder where u got that idea from.In the below verse 3:55 GOD clearly says that he will exalt those who follow or believe him above those who disbelieve TILL the day of judgement and that their dispute regarding Jesus's death will remain till the Day of Judgement.If all of the POB believed then there shouldnt be a reason for dispute and no reason for GOD to judge them regarding their dispute on the day of Judgement.This is another clear indication that Jesus will not return before the day of Judgement coz if he did and showed himself alive,there is no reason for disbelieving nor reason for dispute!! its as simple as that!And anyone who is denying this Quranic truth is only doing so becoz of ignorance and EGO,nothing else!! 
 
(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (55)
  

[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

"And he be a witness against them for what they used to believe"???!!!The verse says nothing like that.Again you are  adding words to the verse and trying to make a new story, so that it matches the hearsays that u uphold besides the Quran.What a shame!!
 
You are only speculating here.  How do you know that God was speaking to Jesus while he was on the cross?  The verse does not say that!  For all we know, this is referring to before he was even arrested!  God could have told Jesus of His plans days before his arrest
 
Well otherwise it simply wouldnt make anysense.If so,please explain why would GOD suddenly raise a messenger of GOD up to him if he wasnt in any dangerous situation??Why would GOD terminate a messenger's mission just like that?? Why would GOD raise him up and rid him off the disbelievers for no good reason??.The disbelievers were there all the time when Jesus was preaching GOD's message.So why all of a sudden GOD chose to raise him and rid him off the disbelievers if nothing serious happened to him????Jesus was clearly in danger and thats y God chose to raise him up and rid him off the aggressing disbelievers.And the verse is certainly not in future tense so clearly GOD was not talking days before the incident.Therefore, It takes only common sense to understand that GOD was speaking to Jesus when he was either arrested or put on cross to be crucified by the disbelievers.
 
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.
(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (55)
 
 
Again i dont see any other reason other than ignorance and EGO for anyone to deny the fact that "Mutawafeeka" in this particular context means putting to death.And i perfectly understand y you see RK's translation inferior to others coz  his translation is not based on some hearsays written down by someone centuries back ,years after the Prophet's death, many of which you guys dont even still know if is "authentic or unauthentic". 
 

 

 
 
 
 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 21 April 2010 at 11:53am
Do you think that it should be translated as "It is He who terminates your life by night...by day He raises you up again"?  That would make no sense.  Therefore, it is clear that the word can mean both death and sleep. 
When and where  did i say that the word does not mean sleep at all??My claim was that the correct meaning of the word can only be understood when the context of the verse is taken into consideration.In this particular verse since the words "night,"day" "raise" etc are present  it is very clear that GOD is talking about sleep.


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 22 April 2010 at 7:34am
This is fine, but my question is regarding your initial assertion that God was explaining that the righteous don't actually die, but are living.  Why did God also not say something similar with regards to the other prophets and messengers who were slain by the unbelievers.
 

[2:154] Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.*

The verse is not directed to Jesus(since he was not KILLED) alone but to all the righteous people,any one who lost their life in the cause of GOD or as i understand anyone who died while striving in the cause of GOD.I was only using this verse to show that this may be the reason y GOD did not specifically say that "JESUS IS DEAD".!!


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 22 April 2010 at 7:45am
Yeah, because most other people were more concerned with its message and not some "hidden code".  They would not waste time quibbling with such ideas. 

So, now you are comparing Khalifa to the great messengers of God???  AstagfirAllah.  And it was not his own abilities!!  He used a computer for God's sake!!  If he had done it without the use of computers, then you would have a point to make.  Finding a code using man-made technology is not a "miracle".  What nonsense you utter.  If that were the case, than the proponents of the Bible Code should also be regarded as "messengers".
 
Oh come on !this is like saying that Moses couldnt have performed the miracle if he did not use the staff.And you know very well that the Bible code is nothing but a man made code so lets not get into that.The Mathematical code in the Quran has simple facts in them which do not even require any adding.subtracting or multiplication.I had presented the simple facts before in this forum you may look at them if u want.And like i said before,the hypocrites were eagerly propogating this miracle initially.They did not see anything wrong in the code when they witnessed it intially,but when their disbelief in the Quran was exposed,they started opposing it.This is nothing but EGO!!.
 

[98:4] In fact, those who received the scripture did not dispute until the proof was given to them.

 
 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 22 April 2010 at 11:55pm
Furthermore, by asking what these verses mean or what significance they have, you are implying that Muhammad (pbuh) had no idea what was meant, because there is no evidence that he understood these verses as referring to some "hidden code".  Do you think Muhammad (pbuh) asked what these verses meant??
 
Just becoz there is no historical evidence does not mean that Muhammad (Pbuh) did not know what the Quranic Initials were or what the verses really meant.He may have and may not have.And it is GOD who teaches and  chooses what his messenger needs to know and what not.Muhammad (Pbuh) only spoke about things that was taught to him by GOD in the Quran.This code was definitely preserved for the scientifically advanced generation.And what about the BIG BANG theory??!.Many today say that GOD is talking about  it  in the Quran.Did Muhammad know anything about the BIG BANG THEORY??!The Quran as i understand is for all the generations to come and therefore many new information may be derived from the Quran.So that people believe and increase in faith at all times.
 

[10:101] Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.

 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 12:01am
Well, compare what the Quran says about the Torah and what it says about the Zabur.  "Tawrat" literally means "law", does it not?  What does "Zabur" mean?  Songs or "psalms", right?

Right.So??How does that prove that Tawrat only had laws in it and Zabur had only songs in it???You argument is very weak..There is no reference in the Quran which says Tawrat only contained Laws and nothing else.

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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 23 April 2010 at 12:08am
That is true.  The Quran's revelation was a major sign of the last hour, but there are many more that have yet to be fulfilled.  If they had all been fulfilled, don't you think that the last hour would have come by now?
 
Id like to make a correction here.The Quran only says that the signs have come, not fulfilled.All the details of the signs of the hour came to us when the Quran was revealed.


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:04pm
You claimed that majority of the translators have interpreted it in one way but as far as i see there is clearly a difference in understanding  of this  verse amoung the  majority of scholars.Some translated it as "will believe and some as "must believe".I dont see how these interpretations become one way??!You called all of them reputed first(I cant still understand on what basis) and then u said some are unclear and ambiguous and now you are saying that they are not 100 percent perfect.Do us a favour and compare the translations of the so called reputed translators first and then tell us which one is the correct one.


Your contention was that the verse was speaking in the past tense.  When you were proven wrong, you switched gears and stated that "well, the translations differ in the meaning", as if this somehow proves your original contention and immediately makes Khalifa's translation more accurate.  Of course, the reality is that it doesn't. 

As I said, there is no translation on earth which can be said to be 100% error-proof.  Translations are the works of men, and sometimes, the text of the Quran is difficult to render into modern language.  This explains why some translations differ on the meaning.  It depended on the translator's understanding.  What is clear is that the verse is not in the past tense, as you and Khalifa claimed.   

The actual Arabic text  doesnt say anything like " and if they dont believe".You are adding words to the verse  and trying to make sense to the translation.The fact remains that the translations done by the majority makes absolutely no sense.In the first part of their translation of the verse, they put "must believe" or"will believe or whatever,which does not at all make any sense since the second part of the verse simply says "he will be a witness against them".If Jesus returns ,i dont see a reason y the POB shouldnt believe in him.Or are u saying that some amoung the POB will not believe in him????!!Does verse say that???!It is  therefore very clear and anyone with minimum inteligence will understand that the second part will only make perfect sense leaving no confusion, if the first part of the verse was translated as  something like"Everyone amoung the POB was to believe in him.
  

Where did I add to the verse?  All I said was that according to Yusuf Ali's translation, the verse says that the people of the book must believe in Jesus and that he would be a witness against them.  Logically, this means that he will be a witness against them if they don't believe.  The verse does not literally say that but since you have been harping about "context", I would advise you to look at the context here.  The logical conclusion is that if they don't believe, he will be a witness against them for their erroneous beliefs.

All of them will believe???Well God didnt say that so i wonder where u got that idea from.In the below verse 3:55 GOD clearly says that he will exalt those who follow or believe him above those who disbelieve TILL the day of judgement and that their dispute regarding Jesus's death will remain till the Day of Judgement.If all of the POB believed then there shouldnt be a reason for dispute and no reason for GOD to judge them regarding their dispute on the day of Judgement.This is another clear indication that Jesus will not return before the day of Judgement coz if he did and showed himself alive,there is no reason for disbelieving nor reason for dispute!! its as simple as that!And anyone who is denying this Quranic truth is only doing so becoz of ignorance and EGO,nothing else!!


3:55 is talking about the people in Jesus' time, not those in the future.  Context Haris, please.  In the future, all of the people of the book may believe in him when they realize that Islam is the correct religion.  Who are the ones that believe in him that God refers to in the verse, in your opinion?

Well otherwise it simply wouldnt make anysense.If so,please explain why would GOD suddenly raise a messenger of GOD up to him if he wasnt in any dangerous situation??Why would GOD terminate a messenger's mission just like that?? Why would GOD raise him up and rid him off the disbelievers for no good reason??.The disbelievers were there all the time when Jesus was preaching GOD's message.So why all of a sudden GOD chose to raise him and rid him off the disbelievers if nothing serious happened to him????


Um, because it came to the point where they had decided to kill him and were hell-bent on capturing him to do so?  That makes sense to me.  Just because he was in danger does not mean he was on the verge of death.  According to most accounts, he was put on trial first.  So even when he was captured, his life was not in imminent danger.  Only after the trial was his life in danger, as he was sentenced to death. 

Jesus was clearly in danger and thats y God chose to raise him up and rid him off the aggressing disbelievers.And the verse is certainly not in future tense so clearly GOD was not talking days before the incident.Therefore, It takes only common sense to understand that GOD was speaking to Jesus when he was either arrested or put on cross to be crucified by the disbelievers.
 

So, to do that, God essentially kills him?  Wow.  I said that God may have said this to Jesus sometime before the crucifixion actually took place.  I didn't say anything about future or past tense.  I am saying that sometime before his arrest or perhaps after, God told Jesus of His plans. 

Again i dont see any other reason other than ignorance and EGO for anyone to deny the fact that "Mutawafeeka" in this particular context means putting to death.And i perfectly understand y you see RK's translation inferior to others coz  his translation is not based on some hearsays written down by someone centuries back ,years after the Prophet's death, many of which you guys dont even still know if is "authentic or unauthentic".


LOL  Yeah, but Khalifa's claims 1400 years later somehow are more accurate!  Come on...



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Do you think that it should be translated as "It is He who terminates your life by night...by day He raises you up again"?  That would make no sense.  Therefore, it is clear that the word can mean both death and sleep. 
When and where  did i say that the word does not mean sleep at all??My claim was that the correct meaning of the word can only be understood when the context of the verse is taken into consideration.In this particular verse since the words "night,"day" "raise" etc are present  it is very clear that GOD is talking about sleep.


Well, you have really shot yourself in the foot here, because Khalifa translated the word as referring to literal death!

"He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done."

It seems that the "messenger of God" was inconsistent.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by haris30432

This is fine, but my question is regarding your initial assertion that God was explaining that the righteous don't actually die, but are living.  Why did God also not say something similar with regards to the other prophets and messengers who were slain by the unbelievers.
 

[2:154] Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.*

The verse is not directed to Jesus(since he was not KILLED) alone but to all the righteous people,any one who lost their life in the cause of GOD or as i understand anyone who died while striving in the cause of GOD.I was only using this verse to show that this may be the reason y GOD did not specifically say that "JESUS IS DEAD".!!


You are still not making sense.  Why would God go to that length to say Jesus did not really die (when he really did), because the righteous do not really die, but he did not say the same for the other prophets and messengers who also died in the cause of God?


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Yeah, because most other people were more concerned with its message and not some "hidden code".  They would not waste time quibbling with such ideas. 

So, now you are comparing Khalifa to the great messengers of God???  AstagfirAllah.  And it was not his own abilities!!  He used a computer for God's sake!!  If he had done it without the use of computers, then you would have a point to make.  Finding a code using man-made technology is not a "miracle".  What nonsense you utter.  If that were the case, than the proponents of the Bible Code should also be regarded as "messengers".
 
Oh come on !this is like saying that Moses couldnt have performed the miracle if he did not use the staff.And you know very well that the Bible code is nothing but a man made code so lets not get into that.The Mathematical code in the Quran has simple facts in them which do not even require any adding.subtracting or multiplication.I had presented the simple facts before in this forum you may look at them if u want.And like i said before,the hypocrites were eagerly propogating this miracle initially.They did not see anything wrong in the code when they witnessed it intially,but when their disbelief in the Quran was exposed,they started opposing it.This is nothing but EGO!!.
 

[98:4] In fact, those who received the scripture did not dispute until the proof was given to them.

Uh, there is a slight difference in parting the Red Sea with a staff (of course, only because God willed it) and finding a mathematical code using a computer [sarcasm intended].  If Khalifa was a miracle worker, he should have been able to find the code using just a pencil and paper.  Now that would have been a miracle. 

By the way, I never said that the Bible Code is real.  I was just pointing out the flaws in your argument.  Incidentally, researchers have found "codes" in Moby Dick which speak of the assassination of Trotzky!



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Furthermore, by asking what these verses mean or what significance they have, you are implying that Muhammad (pbuh) had no idea what was meant, because there is no evidence that he understood these verses as referring to some "hidden code".  Do you think Muhammad (pbuh) asked what these verses meant??
 
Just becoz there is no historical evidence does not mean that Muhammad (Pbuh) did not know what the Quranic Initials were or what the verses really meant.He may have and may not have.And it is GOD who teaches and  chooses what his messenger needs to know and what not.Muhammad (Pbuh) only spoke about things that was taught to him by GOD in the Quran.This code was definitely preserved for the scientifically advanced generation.And what about the BIG BANG theory??!.Many today say that GOD is talking about  it  in the Quran.Did Muhammad know anything about the BIG BANG THEORY??!The Quran as i understand is for all the generations to come and therefore many new information may be derived from the Quran.So that people believe and increase in faith at all times.
 

[10:101] Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.



The Quran clearly says that Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to teach the Book to the people.  How could he do that if God did not fully reveal all the details of the Book?  Muhammad (pbuh) did know how the universe was created, and hence he knew about the Big Bang Theory.  Did he know it literally as the "Big Bang"?  Of course not!  Similarly, if there was a code in the Quran and it was supposed to be interpreted as proof of the divine origin of the Quran, Muhammad (pbuh) would have been told about it and he would have told his followers who would have been looking for it from the start.  But, the whole idea of looking for a code is preposterous.  Do you think God would want us to spend our precious time in this life looking for codes in the Quran OR to spend it actually reading the Quran and understanding its wisdom?    


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Well, compare what the Quran says about the Torah and what it says about the Zabur.  "Tawrat" literally means "law", does it not?  What does "Zabur" mean?  Songs or "psalms", right?

Right.So??How does that prove that Tawrat only had laws in it and Zabur had only songs in it???You argument is very weak..There is no reference in the Quran which says Tawrat only contained Laws and nothing else.


When did I say that the Tawrat did not contain other stuff?  My point was that a messenger brings a book with laws in it, whereas as a prophet does not bring laws and one of the proofs is that David was given the Zabur, and the Quran never mentions anything regarding any laws in the Zabur.  In fact, it frequently refers to how even the birds "sang" or "celebrated" with David concerning the glory of God. 

You also ignored the other part of my argument.  I pointed out how Muhammad (pbuh) was given scripture and he was both a messenger and a prophet.  Whenever the Quran is mentioned as being brought by him, he is always referred to as a messenger.    


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by haris30432

That is true.  The Quran's revelation was a major sign of the last hour, but there are many more that have yet to be fulfilled.  If they had all been fulfilled, don't you think that the last hour would have come by now?
 
Id like to make a correction here.The Quran only says that the signs have come, not fulfilled.All the details of the signs of the hour came to us when the Quran was revealed.


This makes no sense.  How could they have come and yet not be fulfilled? 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 3:57am
Your contention was that the verse was speaking in the past tense.  When you were proven wrong, you switched gears and stated that "well, the translations differ in the meaning", as if this somehow proves your original contention and immediately makes Khalifa's translation more accurate.  Of course, the reality is that it doesn't.  
 
Proven wrong???!!LOL!I didnt see any proof from you.You only presented some translations which are contradicting themselves as your proof that the verse is in the furture tense.I find internet translators far more reliable than those unclear ,ambiguous translations(as u urself called them).Break down the first part of the verse(arabic text) and force the translator to give you the correct tense(ie, ofcourse if u can kill your ego and work to find the truth).Dont just put the whole verse coz it will just pick up any translation from the web and give that as a result.I always got "Was" in the result.
 
By saying" the translations differ in meaning" i was only proving your claim that everyone except RK was going in one direction as wrong.The so-called reputed translators do not have a common understanding in this particular  subject and it is very clear to any1 who studies them.So please dont claim that they are all going one way !!
 
 
Where did I add to the verse?  All I said was that according to Yusuf Ali's translation, the verse says that the people of the book must believe in Jesus and that he would be a witness against them.  Logically, this means that he will be a witness against them if they don't believe.
 
The claim here is that this verse indicates the return of Jesus.Now if Jesus returns and proves to the world that he was never KILLED OR CRUCIFIED,WHY WUD THEY NOT BELIEVE??!!!!! .There shouldnt be a case of "if they dont believe" at all after his return.Or may be Mr.Yusuf Ali unlike Mr .Shakir doesnt believe in his return....LOL.
 
 
3:55 is talking about the people in Jesus' time, not those in the future.  Context Haris, please.  In the future, all of the people of the book may believe in him when they realize that Islam is the correct religion.  Who are the ones that believe in him that God refers to in the verse, in your opinion?
 
The verse says GOD will exalt those who follow Jesus above those who dont  "TILL THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT".So clearly it includes those in the future also.Mr.Yusuf Ali's translation says pretty much the same.
 
Surah 3:55 - "Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."[Yusuf Ali translation]
 
All of those who believed and will believe in what Jesus preached are those who are being addressed as "those who follow thee" in this verse.
 
 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 5:48am
So, to do that, God essentially kills him?  Wow.  I said that God may have said this to Jesus sometime before the crucifixion actually took place.  I didn't say anything about future or past tense.  I am saying that sometime before his arrest or perhaps after, God told Jesus of His plans. 
Well it certainly makes more sense than to say GOD put him to sleep.LOL!!However, i would refrain from saying GOD killed his prophet becoz the arabic word used in this verse is not "qathal" meaning kill.
 
And if GOD did say to Jesus about his plans, i dont think he said ." i will put you to sleep "
 
In  Y ali's translation, it says "take thee" and "raise thee".Logically,that means "take your soul and raise your soul".And when u take away the soul of a person,the person is simply dead as far as this world is concerned.
 
 
LOL  Yeah, but Khalifa's claims 1400 years later somehow are more accurate!  Come on...
 
Why cant they be???The truth was there at the time of the Prophet and many years after him.It was however corrupted almost 200 yrs after the Prophet by those who claimed to have recorded his authentic sayings.RK was blessed to prove to the world that Quran alone is the source of religious teachings for Muslims.
 
I am not at all surprised by your statements.The Jews and the Christians also mocked the Prophet Muhammed when he came centruies after Moses and Jesus  reminding them to follow the true teachings of Jesus and Moses and believe in the Quran.They rejected him siting the same reasons.
 

Questioning God's Wisdom*

[6:124] When a powerful proof comes to them, they say, "We will not believe, unless we are given what is given to GOD's messengers!" GOD knows exactly who is best qualified to deliver His message.* Such criminals will suffer debasement at GOD, and terrible retribution as a consequence of their evil scheming.

 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 6:00am
Well, you have really shot yourself in the foot here, because Khalifa translated the word as referring to literal death!

"He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done."

It seems that the "messenger of God" was inconsistent.
 
 
Its true that he used the word death in the verse.God teaches us that Sleep is temporary death and waking up is ressurection.This is why he put the word "death" and "ressurects" in his translation.
 

Death and Resurrection:

Every Day*

[6:60] He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done.




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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 6:33am
You are still not making sense.  Why would God go to that length to say Jesus did not really die (when he really did), because the righteous do not really die, but he did not say the same for the other prophets and messengers who also died in the cause of God?
 
I think i already answered this question.First of all ,God does not deny Jesus's death anywhere in the Quran.He only denies his murder by the disbelievers.It is "WE" who have been commanded by GOD not to say that his messengers are DEAD.
 
 
And ive also said before that the reason why GOD specifically chose to clarify Jesus's death in the Quran is becoz there was a dispute and false claims amoung the POB regarding his death.I dont see anywhere in the Quran that there was any dispute or false claims being made regarding the deaths of other Prophets.


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 6:52am

Uh, there is a slight difference in parting the Red Sea with a staff (of course, only because God willed it) and finding a mathematical code using a computer [sarcasm intended].  If Khalifa was a miracle worker, he should have been able to find the code using just a pencil and paper.  Now that would have been a miracle. 

Its not we who decide how a miracle should be revealed.Its GOD who decides.And considering the time and age at which this miracle was revealed im not surprised that the computer became a tool for it.And this miracle ,unlike all other miracles is perpetual and tangible ,can be witnessed by anyone ,anywhere,anytime.

Again im not surprised at your disbelief .

[2:87] We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers, and we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not a fact that every time a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, your ego caused you to be arrogant? Some of them you rejected, and some of them you killed.

14:11] Their messengers said to them, "We are no more than humans like you, but GOD blesses whomever He chooses from among His servants. We could not possibly show you any kind of authorization, except in accordance with GOD's will. In GOD the believers shall trust.

[7:101] We narrate to you the history of those communities: their messengers went to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe in what they had rejected before. GOD thus seals the hearts of the disbelievers.



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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 10:16am
The Quran clearly says that Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to teach the Book to the people.  How could he do that if God did not fully reveal all the details of the Book?  Muhammad (pbuh) did know how the universe was created, and hence he knew about the Big Bang Theory.  Did he know it literally as the "Big Bang"?  Of course not!  Similarly, if there was a code in the Quran and it was supposed to be interpreted as proof of the divine origin of the Quran, Muhammad (pbuh) would have been told about it and he would have told his followers who would have been looking for it from the start.  But, the whole idea of looking for a code is preposterous.  Do you think God would want us to spend our precious time in this life looking for codes in the Quran OR to spend it actually reading the Quran and understanding its wisdom?  
 
The Quran also says that GOD is the teacher of the Quran and that Muhammad was to teach nothing other than the Quran(69:43-46).So its clear that GOD taught and Muhammad simply delivered what he was taught.
 

[5:99] The sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message, and GOD knows everything you declare and everything you conceal.

[36:17] "Our sole mission is to deliver the message."

God may or may not have given the details of the code to Muhammad.We dont have any historical records of it.However, if everything that needs to be extracted from the Quran had already been taught to Muhammad and he delivered it to people,then i dont see any point in GOD repeatedly asking people to study the Quran.

Nobody went looking for any codes in the Quran.It all started when Dr Khalifa wanted to translate the Quran and came accross the Quranic Initials.He did not straight away go looking for any codes,instead went through historical recordings to see if there were any clear explanations to the Quranic initials.None of the scholars had any clear idea what  and why the Quranic intials are present for.Dr Khalifa's curiosity led him to put the whole Quran in the computer and check if  there were any mathematical phenomenon and thats how the Math Miracle of the Quran was discovered.It was all part of God's perfect plan.
The discovery of the computer has also been prophecised in the Quran and that it will warn people.
 
 

The Computer Is The Creature*

[27:82] At the right time, we will produce for them a creature, made of earthly materials, declaring that the people are not certain about our revelations.

*27:82 (2+7+8+2 = 19) The computer was required to unveil the Quran's mathematical miracle, and it proved that most people have discarded God's message



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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 04 May 2010 at 10:22am
This makes no sense.  How could they have come and yet not be fulfilled?
 
The Quran contains all the details of the signs of the last hour.This is why GOD said that the signs have come when the Quran was revealed.I hope it is clear now.


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 07 May 2010 at 12:58pm
Proven wrong???!!LOL!I didnt see any proof from you.You only presented some translations which are contradicting themselves as your proof that the verse is in the furture tense.I find internet translators far more reliable than those unclear ,ambiguous translations(as u urself called them).Break down the first part of the verse(arabic text) and force the translator to give you the correct tense(ie, ofcourse if u can kill your ego and work to find the truth).Dont just put the whole verse coz it will just pick up any translation from the web and give that as a result.I always got "Was" in the result.


I showed you several translations which show that the verse has always been interpreted as not being in the past tense, until the arrival of the self-proclaimed "messenger" RK.  You tried to show that RK was right by using an internet translator.  When you were once again refuted, you resorted to attacking the translators for different wordings, as if this somehow proves your initial assertion!  How silly you are! 

The last part you wrote is hilarious!  "Dont just put the whole verse coz it will just pick up any translation from the web and give that as a result.I always got "Was" in the result"!  LOLLOLLOL  This only shows that you are shabby researcher.  To rely on internet translators is obviously not the way to go, as I have shown. 

By saying" the translations differ in meaning" i was only proving your claim that everyone except RK was going in one direction as wrong.The so-called reputed translators do not have a common understanding in this particular  subject and it is very clear to any1 who studies them.So please dont claim that they are all going one way !!


Um, they are going one way because none of them interpreted the verse as being in the past tense!  RK is alone in this regard!

The claim here is that this verse indicates the return of Jesus.Now if Jesus returns and proves to the world that he was never KILLED OR CRUCIFIED,WHY WUD THEY NOT BELIEVE??!!!!! .There shouldnt be a case of "if they dont believe" at all after his return.Or may be Mr.Yusuf Ali unlike Mr .Shakir doesnt believe in his return....LOL.
 

Again, you are only speculating.  It is perfectly possible that some people would still refuse to believe in him.  That has been the case before.  Weren't there unbelievers among the Jews, even after they witnessed the miracles performed by Moses?  We could ask the same question.  Why wouldn't they have believed? 

All of those who believed and will believe in what Jesus preached are those who are being addressed as "those who follow thee" in this verse.


OK, so how does this prove that Jesus is not coming back? 




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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 07 May 2010 at 1:08pm
Well it certainly makes more sense than to say GOD put him to sleep.LOL!!However, i would refrain from saying GOD killed his prophet becoz the arabic word used in this verse is not "qathal" meaning kil;


Hilarious!  Either God took his life (i.e. killed him) or He actually just raised him up alive.  The latter makes more sense, as why would God kill His own prophet?  Why didn't He do that with the other prophets and messengers who were killed by the unbelievers? 

And if GOD did say to Jesus about his plans, i dont think he said ." i will put you to sleep " 
In  Y ali's translation, it says "take thee" and "raise thee".Logically,that means "take your soul and raise your soul".And when u take away the soul of a person,the person is simply dead as far as this world is concerned.


Then what happened to his body?!  Clearly, he was raised body and soul to God. 

Why cant they be???The truth was there at the time of the Prophet and many years after him.It was however corrupted almost 200 yrs after the Prophet by those who claimed to have recorded his authentic sayings.RK was blessed to prove to the world that Quran alone is the source of religious teachings for Muslims.


Yeah, and he failed to prove that he was sent by God, and to compensate, he simply tried to change the meaning of the Quran.  He was simply just another one of the many liars that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) warned would arise in the Ummah. 

I am not at all surprised by your statements.The Jews and the Christians also mocked the Prophet Muhammed when he came centruies after Moses and Jesus  reminding them to follow the true teachings of Jesus and Moses and believe in the Quran.They rejected him siting the same reasons.


Except the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought proof.  He also showed that the Jews and Christians' own books pointed to his arrival.  Does the Quran point to the arrival of another messenger?  Absolutely not!  That is why the Qadianis, the Submitters and all the other groups who claimed that messengers came after Muhammad (pbuh) are rightly labeled as heretics.  The Quran says that he was the last to come, so right there is evidence that RK was a liar.  You tried to prove that was not the case by changing the difference between a prophet and a messenger, but to no avail.




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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 07 May 2010 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Well, you have really shot yourself in the foot here, because Khalifa translated the word as referring to literal death!

"He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done."

It seems that the "messenger of God" was inconsistent.
 
 
Its true that he used the word death in the verse.God teaches us that Sleep is temporary death and waking up is ressurection.This is why he put the word "death" and "ressurects" in his translation.
 

Death and Resurrection:

Every Day*

[6:60] He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done.

Obviously, it is not a literal death.  In the same sense, when Jesus was raised, he was not literally dead. 




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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 07 May 2010 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Uh, there is a slight difference in parting the Red Sea with a staff (of course, only because God willed it) and finding a mathematical code using a computer [sarcasm intended].  If Khalifa was a miracle worker, he should have been able to find the code using just a pencil and paper.  Now that would have been a miracle. 

Its not we who decide how a miracle should be revealed.Its GOD who decides.And considering the time and age at which this miracle was revealed im not surprised that the computer became a tool for it.And this miracle ,unlike all other miracles is perpetual and tangible ,can be witnessed by anyone ,anywhere,anytime.

Again im not surprised at your disbelief .

[2:87] We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers, and we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not a fact that every time a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, your ego caused you to be arrogant? Some of them you rejected, and some of them you killed.

14:11] Their messengers said to them, "We are no more than humans like you, but GOD blesses whomever He chooses from among His servants. We could not possibly show you any kind of authorization, except in accordance with GOD's will. In GOD the believers shall trust.

[7:101] We narrate to you the history of those communities: their messengers went to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe in what they had rejected before. GOD thus seals the hearts of the disbelievers.


Actually, in this age of science which denies the supernatural, it would have been more fitting that a supernatural miracle would have occurred.  Using a computer to find codes is not miraculous!  Healing the sick is miraculous.  Splitting a large body of water is miraculous.  Bringing a book which cannot be imitated is miraculous.  Using a computer to find a code?  Not miraculous!  Again I say, if he had found this code using just a pen and paper, that would have been quite an accomplishment.  But I can just imagine RK sitting in his office, fiddling around with a computer, looking for a code.  It would have been like Moses using a bucket to remove the water that was blocking the Israelites from escaping the pharaoh.  



-------------
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 07 May 2010 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by haris30432

The Quran clearly says that Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to teach the Book to the people.  How could he do that if God did not fully reveal all the details of the Book?  Muhammad (pbuh) did know how the universe was created, and hence he knew about the Big Bang Theory.  Did he know it literally as the "Big Bang"?  Of course not!  Similarly, if there was a code in the Quran and it was supposed to be interpreted as proof of the divine origin of the Quran, Muhammad (pbuh) would have been told about it and he would have told his followers who would have been looking for it from the start.  But, the whole idea of looking for a code is preposterous.  Do you think God would want us to spend our precious time in this life looking for codes in the Quran OR to spend it actually reading the Quran and understanding its wisdom?  
 
The Quran also says that GOD is the teacher of the Quran and that Muhammad was to teach nothing other than the Quran(69:43-46).So its clear that GOD taught and Muhammad simply delivered what he was taught.
 

[5:99] The sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message, and GOD knows everything you declare and everything you conceal.

[36:17] "Our sole mission is to deliver the message."

God may or may not have given the details of the code to Muhammad.We dont have any historical records of it.However, if everything that needs to be extracted from the Quran had already been taught to Muhammad and he delivered it to people,then i dont see any point in GOD repeatedly asking people to study the Quran.

Nobody went looking for any codes in the Quran.It all started when Dr Khalifa wanted to translate the Quran and came accross the Quranic Initials.He did not straight away go looking for any codes,instead went through historical recordings to see if there were any clear explanations to the Quranic initials.None of the scholars had any clear idea what  and why the Quranic intials are present for.Dr Khalifa's curiosity led him to put the whole Quran in the computer and check if  there were any mathematical phenomenon and thats how the Math Miracle of the Quran was discovered.It was all part of God's perfect plan.
The discovery of the computer has also been prophecised in the Quran and that it will warn people.
 
 

The Computer Is The Creature*

[27:82] At the right time, we will produce for them a creature, made of earthly materials, declaring that the people are not certain about our revelations.

*27:82 (2+7+8+2 = 19) The computer was required to unveil the Quran's mathematical miracle, and it proved that most people have discarded God's message




Oh this is such nonsense.  By saying that Muhammad (pbuh) had no idea there was a code when there was is pure heresy.  I wonder what Muhammad (pbuh) was thinking when God revealed this verse:

52:34 "Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!"

He must have been wondering what this meant (as you believe this is referring to the code).  Imagine him reciting this verse, challenging the unbelievers to produce something like the Quran, but not actually understanding the challenge himself.  This is why RK was a liar and a heretic.  He essentially says that God purposely hid somethings about the Quran from His beloved messenger, to reveal it 1400 years after.  Pure nonsense.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 07 May 2010 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by haris30432

This makes no sense.  How could they have come and yet not be fulfilled?
 
The Quran contains all the details of the signs of the last hour.This is why GOD said that the signs have come when the Quran was revealed.I hope it is clear now.


Not in the least.  Details of the signs would not mean the signs have come.  If the signs have come, then they have been fulfilled.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 2:44am

I showed you several translations which show that the verse has always been interpreted as not being in the past tense, until the arrival of the self-proclaimed "messenger" RK.  You tried to show that RK was right by using an internet translator.  When you were once again refuted, you resorted to attacking the translators for different wordings, as if this somehow proves your initial assertion!  How silly you are!  The last part you wrote is hilarious!  "Dont just put the whole verse coz it will just pick up any translation from the web and give that as a result.I always got "Was" in the result"!    This only shows that you are shabby researcher.  To rely on internet translators is obviously not the way to go, as I have shown. 

Like ive repeated many times already, uve only presented translations which are different in interpretations and understandings to prove that RK is wrong.Internet Translators are only one of the many sources to verify, they are certainly not the only one and im fully aware of that and just becoz the majority believes or interpretes differently from a person doesnt make him or her wrong.Some of the translations say "will believe" and some "must believe".Therefore,how can they be any more reliable than internet translators ?And you have not refuted anything.You chose to disregard the proof presented and called them unreliable simply becoz u dont know how to effectively use internet translators.The different wordings in the translations shows different interpretations and understandings.I did not attack the translations ,it is you who called them "unclear and ambiguous" and admitted that they have errors which was very surprising since you called them "reputed" and tried to present them as ur proof initially. So since youve yourself admitted that they have errors and are unclear and ambiguous,i dont see how they prove RK wrong.And also i never said that this somehow proves RK right but neither do they disprove him.The bottom line is that you have failed to present any substantial proof to prove RK's translation wrong.So dont claim that uve proven RK's translation wrong.

Um, they are going one way because none of them interpreted the verse as being in the past tense!  RK is alone in this regard!

Ok i agree .So what??!Does that prove anything???

Again, you are only speculating.  It is perfectly possible that some people would still refuse to believe in him.  That has been the case before.  Weren't there unbelievers among the Jews, even after they witnessed the miracles performed by Moses?  We could ask the same question.  Why wouldn't they have believed?

Well one of the major purposes of jesus's return is to prove to the POB that he is still alive.And the majority of the so called scholars believe that everyone of the POB will believe in him after his second coming.So on what basis are u saying that there will still be some unbelievers amoung the Jews and christians after his descend ?!!!!!!Check out the below.


Ali Ibn Ibrahim relates from Shahr Ibn Havshab: ... “THE PROPHET ‘ISA (AS) WILL DESCEND TO EARTH BEFORE DOOMSDAY. THUS THERE WILL BE NONE FROM AMONG THE JEWS AND NAZARENES WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN HIM BEFORE DEATH (BEFORE THE PROPHET ‘ISA (AS) DIES OR BEFORE ANY FROM AMONG THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS DIE). THE PROPHET ‘ISA (AS) WILL PERFORM THE PRAYER (SALAT) BEHIND HAZRAT MAHDI (AS). Hajjaj asked: “What are you saying? How do you know this?!” “It is a hadith,” I said. “I heard this hadith from Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Husayn Ibn Ali Ibn Abu Talib!” At that, he said, “I swear you have heard it from the most accurate source!”

(Qummi Commentary, Vol. 1, p. 158)

Our Prophet (saas) interpreted the verse “There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them” (Surat an-Nisa’, 159), as indicated in the above hadith.

So there u have it!Plus your conclusion would make 7 out of the 9 reputed  translations that you presented to be completely wrong as they clearly say that EVERYONE of the jews and christians will believe in Jesus before his death.

Pickthall: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

Shakir: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

Arberry: There is not one of the People of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them.

Bewley: There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Rising he will be a witness against them.

Palmer: And there shall not be one of the people of the Book but shall believe in him before his death; and on the day of judgment he shall be a witness against them.

Sale: And there shall not be one of those who have received the scriptures, who shall not believe in him, before his death; and on the day of resurrection he shall be a witness against them.

Asad: Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus; and on the Day of Resurrection he [himself] shall bear witness to the truth against them.

Hilarious!  Either God took his life (i.e. killed him) or He actually just raised him up alive.  The latter makes more sense, as why would God kill His own prophet?  Why didn't He do that with the other prophets and messengers who were killed by the unbelievers? 

God terminating ones life does not essentially mean that he killed the person.What nonsense u utter!If that was the case all the time, u should then say GOD killed all his prophets!!Jesus's soul was simply raised and his body was left to appear alive to the disbelievers.They tortured and crucified a soulless body which appeared to be alive.Why is this so difficult to  imagine??!That wud seem more logical and more convincing to anyone than the claim that GOD raised Jesus's body and soul together to heaven and then he brought down another body of man who looks exactly like him and put him on the cross to be crucified and tortured or whatever.

Now as to y GOD didnt do that with other Prophets  who were killed , i really dont know.God chooses to do whatever he wills.The below verses could possibly be the reason for it im not sure.GOD knows best.
 
[17:55] Your Lord is the best knower of everyone in the heavens and the earth. In accordance with this knowledge, we preferred some prophets over others. For example, we gave David the Psalms.
 
[2:253] These messengers; we blessed some of them more than others. For example, GOD spoke to one, and we raised some of them to higher ranks. And we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had GOD willed, their followers would not have fought with each other, after the clear proofs had come to them. Instead, they disputed among themselves; some of them believed, and some disbelieved. Had GOD willed, they would not have fought. Everything is in accordance with GOD's will.
 
 
Yeah, and he failed to prove that he was sent by God, and to compensate, he simply tried to change the meaning of the Quran.  He was simply just another one of the many liars that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) warned would arise in the Ummah. 

Oh well he proved he was sent by GOD supported by a miracle in the Quran but those who chose not to see it due to nothing but EGO and ignorance cannot and will not ever see the truth.And he did not change anything in the Quran.He only exposed the corruptions that some people did with the Quran by GOD's leave.Ofcourse the corrupters will not accept it and accuse him of corrupting it,not very surprising at all!They like many from the previous generations are stuck in their innovations, false prohibitions and idolization of religious scholars and messengers.Not a single person who claimed  messengership after Prophet Muhammad,advocated the worship Of GOD alone or upholding the Quran alone except Rashad Khalifa.Many people who have become submitters today do not believe in him just becoz of the math miracle but also based on what he preached.This man was the only man of his time,after Prophet Muhammad who advocated the worship of GOD alone in its perfect and pure form.As clearly mentioned in the Quran,he reminded people to devote their Salats,fasting,Hajj,Zakat etc ,their religion as a whole to GOD alone.He told people not to mention any other names beside Allah's name in their salats,he  reminded people to follow the Quranic instructions and pay the Zakat on the day of receiveing income and not one time in an year thereby denying the constant flow of money to the poor and making them wait for a whole year for their right ,Zakat which is the poors' HAQ(right).He reminded people to uphold Allah's words alone  ie the Quran alone and not disregard it as this was the same mistake that was committed by those who received the scripture before.They also claimed to follow the scripture but they were infact like many today upholding the opinions and teachings of their scholars besides the actual word of GOD.He did not seek money or fame for whatever he was doing.This man simply qualified in all the Quranic criterias of a messenger ,he was supported with a miracle,he advocated the worship of GOD alone and sought no wages.


                   False Messengers
                   Incapable of Preaching
                   the Worship of God ALONE*

[26:210] The devils can never reveal this.

*26:210 A false messenger is a messenger of Satan, for he is the fabricator of the most horrendous lie. Such a messenger can never denounce idolatry, or preach the worship of God ALONE.

 

[30:30] Therefore, you shall devote yourself to the religion of strict monotheism. Such is the natural instinct placed into the people by GOD. Such creation of GOD will never change. This is the perfect religion, but most people do not know.

             Rejecting The Messengers: A Tragic Human Trait*

[36:13] Cite for them the example of people in a community that received the messengers.

*36:13-27 God's messengers have proof, advocate God alone, and do not ask for money.

            
            Ridiculing The Messengers: A Tragic Human Trait*

[36:30] How sorry is the people's condition! Every time a messenger went to them, they always ridiculed him.

*36:30 If the messenger presents solid proof of messengership, advocates the worship of God alone, and does not ask us for money, why should we not believe?

The Greatest Criterion*
 [39:45] When GOD ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion. But when others are mentioned beside Him, they become satisfied.*

 

 

 

 



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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 4:04am

Except the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought proof.  He also showed that the Jews and Christians' own books pointed to his arrival.  Does the Quran point to the arrival of another messenger?  Absolutely not!  That is why the Qadianis, the Submitters and all the other groups who claimed that messengers came after Muhammad (pbuh) are rightly labeled as heretics.  The Quran says that he was the last to come, so right there is evidence that RK was a liar.  You tried to prove that was not the case by changing the difference between a prophet and a messenger, but to no avail.


Prophet Muhammad's proof was simply the Quran.He was given no other proofs of his Prophethood.And he cudn't have possibly shown anything in the previous scriptures regarding his arrival becoz he simply didnot know anything in the previous scriptures.The below verses refutes your claim.

 

[4:79] Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you. We have sent you as a messenger to the people,* and GOD suffices as witness.

*4:79 Muhammad was not given any proof of prophethood. Hence the expression "God suffices as a witness".

                          Quran: Muhammad's Miracle*


[29:48] You did not read the previous scriptures, nor did you write them with your hand. In that case, the rejectors would have had reason to harbor doubts.


The Quran does point out to the advent of God's messenger of the covenant.Surah 3: 81 clearly provides the definition of a messenger and a Prophet.Prophets are given the book and wisdom so there you have the definition of a Prophet.A messenger comes to confirm the scripture and so there uve the definition of a messenger.These are the correct definitions of a Prophet and a messenger.YOuve simply made up your own interpretations of a messenger and a Prophet which simply is not how the Quran defines them.Surah 33:77 shows that the covenant in 3:81 includes Prophet Muhammad.There have been claims by some that the covenant in 33:77 is a different one.However,if u look at the beginning of the verse it says "Recall"  and the only other covenant taken from Prophets by GOD that u can see in the Quran is in 3:81.Rashad Khalifa proved the authenticity of and confirmed the Quran therefore he was God's messenger of the covenant as prophecised in 3:81.   



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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 08 May 2010 at 4:54am

Obviously, it is not a literal death.  In the same sense, when Jesus was raised, he was not literally dead. 


Yeah if u take it totally out of context.

 

Oh this is such nonsense.  By saying that Muhammad (pbuh) had no idea there was a code when there was is pure heresy.  I wonder what Muhammad (pbuh) was thinking when God revealed this verse:

52:34 "Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!"

He must have been wondering what this meant (as you believe this is referring to the code).  Imagine him reciting this verse, challenging the unbelievers to produce something like the Quran, but not actually understanding the challenge himself.  This is why RK was a liar and a heretic.  He essentially says that God purposely hid somethings about the Quran from His beloved messenger, to reveal it 1400 years after.  Pure nonsense.


There is no nonsense in this.Nonsense is thinking that GOD would reveal a mathematical code to the Prophet and his people when actually there were no proper numbering system during his tym.Prophet Muhammad made no challenges it was GOD who made the challenge in the Quran.And its not just verse 52:34,you should also ask what Muhammad was thinking when GOD revealed the mysterious initials in 29chapters,when GOD spelled Mecca as Becca in the Quran,when GOD chose not to put Bismillah in Surah 9 while he put it in the beginning of all the other Surahs.Where are your answers to these questions??Why are the scholars clueless on many of these questions??Why isnt there any clear records of the Prophet's interpretations on these ??Are u saying GOD put those in the Quran for just the sake of it??

The Quranic initials are called as proofs or signs of this divine  scripture.How are they proofs or signs of the Quran??Where is the Prophet's explanation to this???If there was ,why wasnt such an important information recorded??
 

[13:1] A. L. M. R.* These (letters) are proofs of this scripture. What is revealed to you from your Lord is the truth, but most people do not believe.

*13:1 These initials constitute a major component of the Quran's built-in proof of divine authorship, the miraculous mathematical code.

[15:1] A.L.R.* These (letters) are proofs of this scripture; a profound Quran.

Your own Hadiths say the following :)
 
"This was apparently the view of the four Right-Guided Caliphs summarized in these words of Abu Bakr: "In every divine writ (kitab) there is [an element of] mystery ? and the mystery of the Qur'an is  [indicated] in the openings of [some of] the surahs."
 
This mystery was solved through GOD's messenger of the covenant.
 
The common belief so far was that it was the literary excellence of the Quran that was the challenge.However many like Taha hussein have claimed to have made Surahs similar to those in the Quran.So clearly the challenge is the math in the Quran.God reveals what he chooses to whomever he pleases and only teaches what he chooses to teach.Its as simple as that.


 [12:101] "My Lord, You have given me kingship and taught me the interpretation of dreams. Initiator of the heavens and the earth; You are my Lord and Master in this life and in the Hereafter. Let me die as a submitter, and count me with the righteous."

 [36:69] What we taught him (the messenger) was not poetry, nor is he (a poet). This is but a formidable proof,* and a profound Quran.

 

                      Miracle of the Quran to be Unveiled After Muhammad*
                                                            
                                             
 [10:20] They say, "How come no miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to GOD; so wait, and I am waiting along with you."



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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 May 2010 at 3:59pm
You chose to disregard the proof presented and called them unreliable simply becoz u dont know how to effectively use internet translators.


No, its because I am not crazy enough to use internet translators as my guides and I showed you an example of why I don't use them.  Not only did my example show the unreliability of internet translators, it showed that the translations are often just jibberish.  Hence, human translators are the way to go.  Now, while the wording has varied between translations (which is probably due to the individual's varying mastery of Arabic), they still agree on the nature of the verse, which is talking about the future. 

The different wordings in the translations shows different interpretations and understandings.I did not attack the translations ,it is you who called them "unclear and ambiguous"


Wrong, I said "some translations" are unclear and ambiguous".  Way to twist my words.  This is typical.   

and admitted that they have errors which was very surprisingsince you called them "reputed" and tried to present them as ur proof initially.


Why is that surprising?  Translations of the Quran are human endeavors, so why would there not be errors?  Only the Arabic is error-free, but translations can indeed contain errors.  That does not mean they should be rejected.  

Those translations are indeed much more reputable than the virtual rewrite of RK.  That is why is he rightfully rejected as a heretic.  He purposefully tried to alter the meanings of various verses to fit his own views.

So since youve yourself admitted that they have errors and are unclear and ambiguous,i dont see how they prove RK wrong.And also i never said that this somehow proves RK right but neither do they disprove him.The bottom line is that you have failed to present any substantial proof to prove RK's translation wrong.So dont claim that uve proven RK's translation wrong.


First of all, why do I need to prove RK wrong?  He is in the minority here.  So, if you want to say that he was right, the burden of proof is on you to prove it, not on me to prove that he was wrong.  You need to prove that the majority of translators are wrong that RK is right.

Ok i agree .So what??!Does that prove anything???


Yeah, it shows that RK's claim is a simple revisionist attempt, as the traditional view is that the verse is talking about the future. 

Well one of the major purposes of jesus's return is to prove to the POB that he is still alive.And the majority of the so called scholars believe that everyone of the POB will believe in him after his second coming.So on what basis are u saying that there will still be some unbelievers amoung the Jews and christians after his descend ?!!!!!!Check out the below.


Again, this is about the future, so none of us can say for sure what exactly will happen.  In light of past cases, like with Moses and the Jews, I can see why it is at least possible that some of the people of the book will still not believe.  Some humans have a tendency to be stubborn, even in the face of proof.  I am not saying that there will definitely be some who do not believe.

So there u have it!Plus your conclusion would make 7 out of the 9 reputed  translations that you presented to be completely wrong as they clearly say that EVERYONE of the jews and christians will believe in Jesus before his death.

Pickthall: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

Shakir: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

Arberry: There is not one of the People of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them.

Bewley: There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Rising he will be a witness against them.

Palmer: And there shall not be one of the people of the Book but shall believe in him before his death; and on the day of judgment he shall be a witness against them.

Sale: And there shall not be one of those who have received the scriptures, who shall not believe in him, before his death; and on the day of resurrection he shall be a witness against them.

Asad: Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus; and on the Day of Resurrection he [himself] shall bear witness to the truth against them.


Where are you getting this from?  None of the translations actually say that "some will not believe".  The translations only say either that the people of the book "must believe in him" or "will believe" or "none of them will not believe (meaning they will believe).  At most what some of them say is that those who don't believe will be testified against by Jesus on the Day of Judgment.  That is not the same as saying that "some will definitely not believe".  None of them actually say that.  They are not contradicting the scholarly opinions.  RK is the only one who clearly contradicts the traditional opinion.

God terminating ones life does not essentially mean that he killed the person.What nonsense u utter!If that was the case all the time, u should then say GOD killed all his prophets!!Jesus's soul was simply raised and his body was left to appear alive to the disbelievers.They tortured and crucified a soulless body which appeared to be alive.Why is this so difficult to  imagine??!That wud seem more logical and more convincing to anyone than the claim that GOD raised Jesus's body and soul together to heaven and then he brought down another body of man who looks exactly like him and put him on the cross to be crucified and tortured or whatever.


What happened to the body then?  Concerning the other prophets, why weren't they rescued in a similar manner?  Their lives were not "terminated", rather they were killed by the unbelievers.  Also, the other prophets who were not killed were brought back to their Lord after they had performed their missions.  What was Jesus' mission, and why he known as the Messiah? What does Messiah mean in Islam?

Now as to y GOD didnt do that with other Prophets  who were killed , i really dont know.God chooses to do whatever he wills.The below verses could possibly be the reason for it im not sure.GOD knows best.
 
[17:55] Your Lord is the best knower of everyone in the heavens and the earth. In accordance with this knowledge, we preferred some prophets over others. For example, we gave David the Psalms.
 

Perhaps because He had more planned for Jesus.  He chose him to be the Messiah.  But, even then, he will be a follower of Muhammad (pbuh).

Oh well he proved he was sent by GOD supported by a miracle in the Quran but those who chose not to see it due to nothing but EGO and ignorance cannot and will not ever see the truth.And he did not change anything in the Quran.He only exposed the corruptions that some people did with the Quran by GOD's leave.Ofcourse the corrupters will not accept it and accuse him of corrupting it,not very surprising at all!They like many from the previous generations are stuck in their innovations, false prohibitions and idolization of religious scholars and messengers.


LOL Listen to you!  Ego?  Where is the ego of the person who claims to be a messenger of God who had to finish the job of the greatest messenger, Muhammad (pbuh)?  Now that is an egotistical person. 

Not a single person who claimed  messengership after Prophet Muhammad,advocated the worship Of GOD alone or upholding the Quran alone except Rashad Khalifa.Many people who have become submitters today do not believe in him just becoz of the math miracle but also based on what he preached.This man was the only man of his time,after Prophet Muhammad who advocated the worship of GOD alone in its perfect and pure form.As clearly mentioned in the Quran,he reminded people to devote their Salats,fasting,Hajj,Zakat etc ,their religion as a whole to GOD alone.


Sure, is that why he claimed that Satan had inserted verses into the Quran, even though God says in the Quran that He would protect it from corruption (Al-Hijr: 9)? 

Is that why he translated Al-Baqarah:30 in the following way:

Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."




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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 May 2010 at 4:11pm
Prophet Muhammad's proof was simply the Quran.He was given no other proofs of his Prophethood.And he cudn't have possibly shown anything in the previous scriptures regarding his arrival becoz he simply didnot know anything in the previous scriptures.The below verses refutes your claim.

[4:79] Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you. We have sent you as a messenger to the people,* and GOD suffices as witness.

*4:79 Muhammad was not given any proof of prophethood. Hence the expression "God suffices as a witness".

                          Quran: Muhammad's Miracle*

[29:48] You did not read the previous scriptures, nor did you write them with your hand. In that case, the rejectors would have had reason to harbor doubts.

How was the Quran a proof of Muhammad if he did not even know how it was miraculous?  You are uttering some of the most nonsensical statements I have ever heard!

If he was a prophet, he would have made prophecies.  Otherwise, he would not be a prophet.  And since he was a messenger, he had to be a prophet as well. 

By the way, the Quran says to the people of the book of Muhammad's time to look in their books for signs pointing to his arrival.  Even RK says this:

"follow the messenger, the gentile prophet (Muhammad), whom they find written in their Torah and Gospel. He exhorts them to be righteous, enjoins them from evil, allows for them all good food, and prohibits that which is bad, and unloads the burdens and the shackles imposed upon them. Those who believe in him, respect him, support him, and follow the light that came with him are the successful ones."" 7:157

Another example of how the "messenger of God" was inconsistent. 

The Quran does point out to the advent of God's messenger of the covenant.Surah 3: 81 clearly provides the definition of a messenger and a Prophet.Prophets are given the book and wisdom so there you have the definition of a Prophet.A messenger comes to confirm the scripture and so there uve the definition of a messenger.These are the correct definitions of a Prophet and a messenger.YOuve simply made up your own interpretations of a messenger and a Prophet which simply is not how the Quran defines them.Surah 33:77 shows that the covenant in 3:81 includes Prophet Muhammad.There have been claims by some that the covenant in 33:77 is a different one.However,if u look at the beginning of the verse it says "Recall"  and the only other covenant taken from Prophets by GOD that u can see in the Quran is in 3:81.Rashad Khalifa proved the authenticity of and confirmed the Quran therefore he was God's messenger of the covenant as prophecised in 3:81.

You sound like a pouting child who just wants to repeat the same nonsense over and over again.  I already refuted your bogus claim regarding 3:81. 

What a shock that God did not mention the "messenger" who would ultimately reveal the great miracle contained in the Quran!  Shocked 


  







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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 11 May 2010 at 4:30pm
Yeah if u take it totally out of context.


There is nothing in the context that would suggest death.  Actually, the context would suggest that Jesus was in danger and thus in need of God's protection and help.  To say that this suggests that he died is simply a non-sequitur.

There is no nonsense in this.Nonsense is thinking that GOD would reveal a mathematical code to the Prophet and his people when actually there were no proper numbering system during his tym.


That is why encoding the Quran with a numerical miracle does not make any sense.  The Arabs were master poets and that is why the Quran was a miracle, as these Arabs could not imitate it. 

Prophet Muhammad made no challenges it was GOD who made the challenge in the Quran.And its not just verse 52:34,you should also ask what Muhammad was thinking when GOD revealed the mysterious initials in 29chapters,when GOD spelled Mecca as Becca in the Quran,when GOD chose not to put Bismillah in Surah 9 while he put it in the beginning of all the other Surahs.Where are your answers to these questions??Why are the scholars clueless on many of these questions??Why isnt there any clear records of the Prophet's interpretations on these ??Are u saying GOD put those in the Quran for just the sake of it??


But Muhammad (pbuh) recited those verses to the unbelievers.  If he was unaware of the code, than he would have been clueless as to what the challenge actually was. 

The meanings of the initials have been conjectured upon, but their ultimate meaning is left to God.  Obviously, they were not meant to be clear.

The word in 13:1 is "ayat" which does not mean "letters" but "verses".  This is another example of Khalifa altering the meaning to fit his own views.

Your own Hadiths say the following :)
 
"This was apparently the view of the four Right-Guided Caliphs summarized in these words of Abu Bakr: "In every divine writ (kitab) there is [an element of] mystery ? and the mystery of the Qur'an is  [indicated] in the openings of [some of] the surahs."
  

First of all, where is your reference?  Which hadith is this?  Also, according to Ibn Kathir (commentary of 2:1):

"The individual letters in the beginning of some Surahs are among those things whose knowledge Allah has kept only for Himself. This was reported from Abu Bakr, `Umar, `Uthman, `Ali and Ibn Mas`ud. It was said that these letters are the names of some of the Surahs. It was also said that they are the beginnings that Allah chose to start the Surahs of the Qur'an with. Khasif stated that Mujahid said, "The beginnings of the Surahs, such as Qaf, Sad, Ta Sin Mim and Alif Lam Ra, are just some letters of the alphabet.'' Some linguists also stated that they are letters of the alphabet and that Allah simply did not cite the entire alphabet of twenty-eight letters. For instance, they said, one might say, "My son recites Alif, Ba, Ta, Tha... '' he means the entire alphabet although he stops before mentioning the rest of it. This opinion was mentioned by Ibn Jarir."

They agreed that there was some mystery in the letters, but to say that it is referring to a code is a leap of faith and a non-sequitur.

This mystery was solved through GOD's messenger of the covenant.


...who was not even mentioned in the Quran.  What a shock.

The common belief so far was that it was the literary excellence of the Quran that was the challenge.However many like Taha hussein have claimed to have made Surahs similar to those in the Quran.So clearly the challenge is the math in the Quran.God reveals what he chooses to whomever he pleases and only teaches what he chooses to teach.Its as simple as that.


They can claim it, but is it true?  Every time a comparison is made between the Quran and the alleged "imitators", the imitators are shown to be inferior to the Quran.  The Quran's literary excellence was its miracle, which makes sense as the Arabs were masters at linguistics and poetry, not mathematics. 

Concerning 10:20, it is yet another mistranslation.  The key word is "Ghaib", which means the "unseen" not the "future". 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 5:41am

Wrong, I said "some translations" are unclear and ambiguous".  Way to twist my words.  This is typical.

Well.. i think u actually called atleast 6 out of 9 translations you presented initially as unclear and ambiguous and thats not "some" to me.Besides that, you were forced to admit that they are unclear and ambiguous only becoz you couldnt provide a logical explanation as to why jesus would be a witness against the POB when all of them would eventually believe in him.You simply came up with your own interpretation of the translations in a desperate attempt to make sense to them.And as if to cover up the exposure of the nonsense in these translations, you then decided to divert the topic of discussion here from Jesus's return to Rashad's messengership and the math miracle.

MY QUESTION

Several translators seem to follow this understanding and their translations say something to the effect that "everyone from the People of the Book will (certainly) believe in him ...". ". However, why would Jesus be a "witness against them" when they believe in him? Should he not be a witness against those who do NOT believe in him?

YOUR ANSWER

Yes, some translations are unclear or ambiguous.  What the ayat is actually saying is that Jesus will be a witness of what actually happened on the day of the crucifixion, and since the majority of the people of the book believe that he was killed,he shall be a witness against them. 


And when most of the translations were exposed as "unclear or ambiguous",you picked up a few other translations which does not contain "will or shall believe" but "must believe" and came up with a different interpretation.


I disagree.  Let's look at some of the most well-known translations [my comments in bold]:

Yusuf Ali: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment

he will be a witness against them;- [this says plainly that the people of the book must believe in Jesus, and if they don't, he will be a witness against them]

Those translations are indeed much more reputable than the virtual rewrite of RK.  That is why is he rightfully rejected as a heretic.  He purposefully tried to alter the meanings of various verses to fit his own views.

Much more reputable???On what basis??majority opinion??Or becoz they all some how validate centuries old hearsays??.One would only require the words " Wa-in min  and "illalayu/minanna" from the verse to understand that the translators have clearly mistranslated the verse.The word"illalayu/minanna" as correctly pointed out by one of the forum members(seeks hidayath) is in imperfect tense.

The imperfect tense is a simple (i.e. a single word) past tense for describing repeated actions in the past or conditions that last for an indefinite time or for descriptions in the past.

In English specifically, the equivalent tense is the continuous past or the structure used to....  Here are some examples of the tense in English:
  1. I was listening to some music.
  2. My parents were watching television.
  3. I used to play football when I was younger.
  4. The weather was beautiful, the sun was shining, the birds were singing.
  5. The imperfect is used to describe many different things in the past such as:

    your age (when I was 12)
    the weather (it was raining)
    describing a scene (It was a cold and dark night)
    what you were doing ( I was eating when)
    what you used to do ( I used to go there all the time)
    what time it was (It was 5:00 when.......)
    what somebody looked like (he was short and mean looking)

So from the definitions and the examples given above it is quite easy for anyone to see that the translations done by the majority refering to something in the future is nothing but false. 

 
 [4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.
 
 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 5:54am
Yeah, it shows that RK's claim is a simple revisionist attempt, as the traditional view is that the verse is talking about the future. 
 
Yeah but to many now it seems as RK's translation clearly exposes how  the traditional interpretation of the Quran has nothing to do with the Quran itself but with heresays and stories written down hundreds of years after the Prophet's departure.
 
 
What happened to the body then?
 
How is that any relevant?? What do u think normally happens to a dead body??
 
Perhaps because He had more planned for Jesus.  He chose him to be the Messiah.  But, even then, he will be a follower of Muhammad (pbuh).
 
Ah guess work! Now thats typical!
 
 
 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 6:22am

You wrote the below.

Again, you are only speculating.  It is perfectly possible that some people would still refuse to believe in him. 

Well your conclusions contradicts most of the translations you presented coz they say "EVERYONE" WILL BELIEVE meaning no one will be left amoung the POB who wouldnt believe in him after Jesus returns.The contradiction in these translations are very clear to those who are not blinded by the idolization of scholars ,hearsays and stories.

 
 
Pickthall: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

Shakir: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

Arberry: There is not one of the People of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them.

Bewley: There is not one of the People of the Book who will not believe in him before he dies; and on the Day of Rising he will be a witness against them.

Palmer: And there shall not be one of the people of the Book but shall believe in him before his death; and on the day of judgment he shall be a witness against them.

Sale: And there shall not be one of those who have received the scriptures, who shall not believe in him, before his death; and on the day of resurrection he shall be a witness against them.

 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 11:59am
LOL Listen to you!  Ego?  Where is the ego of the person who claims to be a messenger of God who had to finish the job of the greatest messenger, Muhammad (pbuh)?  Now that is an egotistical person
 
Your statement  shows not just ur EGO but also your ignorance as well.RK was not sent to finish any unfinished business of Prophet Muhammad.His mission was something different which ofcourse you have not studied at all.And with the atittude that u are displaying im pretty much sure you wouldnt  be interested or even understand it.And so i dont wish to elaborate this matter here at this point and waste my precious time.
 
You have further displayed your EGO ,ignorance and disobedience to GOD by calling Prophet Muhammad the greatest messenger of GOD when GOD clearly commands believers not to make any distinction amoung the messengers of GOD(2:136,2:285,3:84,4:150,152).God alone has the right to give ranks to his messengers not his servants.


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 12:14pm
Sure, is that why he claimed that Satan had inserted verses into the Quran, even though God says in the Quran that He would protect it from corruption (Al-Hijr: 9)? 

Is that why he translated Al-Baqarah:30 in the following way:

Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."

 
Since you have bothered to research some of RK's material ,i would also advice you to take the same enthusiasm and interest in finding the reasons to why the above was preached by RK.Over 70 reasons atleast hav been presented as proofs to support the exclusion of the false verses which also includes non mathematical ones.As for the temporary GOD thing, reasons for that also have been included in the appendices of RK's translation and is also easily available for verification online.


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 12:35pm

How was the Quran a proof of Muhammad if he did not even know how it was miraculous?  You are uttering some of the most nonsensical statements I have ever heard!

Prophet Muhammad had never studied the previous scriptures yet he spoke of Jesus,Moses,David,Abraham etc etc..coz such information contained in the Quran.However,he was not supported by any other miracles other than the scripture like Jesus,Moses etc...
 
 
Why is that surprising?  Translations of the Quran are human endeavors, so why would there not be errors?  Only the Arabic is error-free, but translations can indeed contain errors.  That does not mean they should be rejected.  
 
Yeah well then how are they any good to be presented as proofs to disprove another translation ??And also you simply have now admitted that you picked up translations, the majority of which are unclear and ambiguous and which contain errors to prove that Jesus is returning.One can easily see how ridiculous it is!
 

 



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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 12:42pm

You sound like a pouting child who just wants to repeat the same nonsense over and over again.  I already refuted your bogus claim regarding 3:81.  What a shock that God did not mention the "messenger" who would ultimately reveal the great miracle contained in the Quran!  Shocked 

 
Oh yeah ,my apologies for repeating it to you..Shouldve remembered the below verses.

[6:39] Those who reject our proofs are deaf and dumb, in total darkness. Whomever GOD wills, He sends astray, and whomever He wills, He leads in a straight path.

[43:40] Can you make the deaf hear; can you make the blind see, or those who are far astray?

And for your info.. u didnt refute anything except use 3:84 to claim that since it doesnt include Muhammad 3:81 should be talking about Muhammad.This is nothing but nonsense as far as i see.3:81 clearly talks about a covenant taken from the Prophets and 33:7 also talks about the same covenant so its very clear to me that the verses are related and the messenger in 3:81 is RK.


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 12:52pm
That is why encoding the Quran with a numerical miracle does not make any sense.  The Arabs were master poets and that is why the Quran was a miracle, as these Arabs could not imitate it. 
Unfortunately again u fail to see light.So ur saying that the challenge and the miracle of the Quran is the richness and beauty of the Arabic in it???Well in that case the challenge wuld only apply to those who know Arabic.What relevance would this challenge have to the non arabs???How does this challenge apply to the non arabs???!!What is the point in challenging to produce a Surah in Arabic to over 95 percent of the world population when they dont speak arabic or have nothing to do with it???!So clearly.. the miraculous or unimitatable aspect of the Quran cannot be just Arabic.....
 
 
Quran is still a miracle and will always continue to be so till  Yaumul Qiyamah... ofcourse only for those who believe!!
 
 
Concerning 10:20, it is yet another mistranslation.  The key word is "Ghaib", which means the "unseen" not the "future". 
 
If only you could quit nitpicking and look properly,u would see how that doesnt necessarily change the meaning of the verse in a big way.However,Im pretty much sure that if these translators knew anything about the math miracle of the Quran and the time of its revelation, they wouldve translated it exactly the way God intended it to be.
 

 


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 12 May 2010 at 1:07pm

The meanings of the initials have been conjectured upon, but their ultimate meaning is left to God.  Obviously, they were not meant to be clear.
 
Ok so i think now u acknowledge that GOD did not reveal every thing in the Quran to Prophet Muhammad.In many verses (10:1,12:1,13:1,15:1,26:2,27:1) God called them signs or proofs of the Quran.It would make no sense at all for GOD to say that these initials are signs or proofs of the scripture if he never wanted anyone to know HOW??????!The fact is GOD does not make false proclamations in the Quran.God revealed this amazing miracle  in 1974 exactly 1406(19x74) lunar years after the Quran's revealation.And surprisingly the reference of the miracle of "19" happens to be Surah "74" titled the "Hidden one" or "Hidden Secret" !!
 
 
 
The word in 13:1 is "ayat" which does not mean "letters" but "verses".  This is another example of Khalifa altering the meaning to fit his own views.

The word Ayah has many meanings such as verses ,signs,proofs etc.. if u dont know it please check a dictionary or other translations."Letters" in the translation are in brackets refering to Alef,Lam,Ra which i assume u know are Arabic letters or alphabets..Read carefully please.

 




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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 May 2010 at 1:19pm
Well.. i think u actually called atleast 6 out of 9 translations you presented initially as unclear and ambiguous and thats not "some" to me.


Wrong again!  My response was to your presentation of the translation by Pickthall.  How is that referring to all the others? 

Besides that, you were forced to admit that they are unclear and ambiguous only becoz you couldnt provide a logical explanation as to why jesus would be a witness against the POB when all of them would eventually believe in him.


I already provided an explanation of the verse.  In addition, I have checked other sources and it seems that the scholars were divided on the exact meaning of the verse, and this included even the Sahabah.  According to http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=4&verse=153&to=162 - Maududi :

"...the purpose of the verse would be to affirm that at the time when the physical death of Jesus takes place, all the living 'People of the Book' would have come to believe in him (i.e. in his prophethood). Alternatively, the verse would mean that the prophethood of Jesus will become manifest to every person among the People of the Book just before he dies so that they will believe in him, but at a time when believing would be of no avail. Both these views have been supported by several Companions, Successors and outstanding scholars of Qur'anic exegesis. The truth of the matter is best known to God alone."

As you can see, there were varying opinions as to the actual meaning of the verse, and this would explain why modern translations vary as well.  What is clear, however, is that all the Sahabah agreed that the verse was talking about future events and was not referring to the Jews at the time of Jesus' mission.  I will prove this further below.

You simply came up with your own interpretation of the translations in a desperate attempt to make sense to them.And as if to cover up the exposure of the nonsense in these translations, you then decided to divert the topic of discussion here from Jesus's return to Rashad's messengership and the math miracle.


LOL The diversion and desperation were on your part, as you could not prove the validity of RK's translation.  So, to compensate, you simply went into overdrive to show that the translations varied from translator to translator and therefore, it was they who were wrong!  This is clearly a fallacy. 

Much more reputable???On what basis??majority opinion??Or becoz they all some how validate centuries old hearsays??.One would only require the words " Wa-in min  and "illalayu/minanna" from the verse to understand that the translators have clearly mistranslated the verse.The word"illalayu/minanna" as correctly pointed out by one of the forum members(seeks hidayath) is in imperfect tense.
 

LOLLOL More hilarious comments!  So now you want to say that the verse is in the imperfect tense?  Seekshidayath was refuting your claim that the verse was in past tense!  Yet you still cling to your notion that the verse is talking about the past and to support that, you use an example from the English language?  How silly of you!  English and Arabic are very different languages, in case you are not aware.  The imperfect tense in Arabic is NOT the same as past tense.  Rather, it is the perfect tense which is the equivalent of the past tense.  According to http://www.multimediaquran.com/quran/arabic/grammar/tenses.html - MultimediaQuran :

"There are two main tenses in the Arabic language. 1.Perfect Tense, 2.Imperfect Tense or the Present Tense. The action is completed in the perfect tense. You may also call this as the past tense because the action is completed before the present so it belongs to the past. For example, one may say, "I ate". The action of eating was finished in the past. The past could be a few minutes or a few decades before the present time. Alternately, in the second tense, i.e., the imperfect, the action is still continuing. For example, you knock on the door and walk in. You see he is eating his meal. He says to you, "I am eating". The action is still continuing, he is still eating while talking to you. This is the present tense in English. It is also the "imperfect tense" in Arabic. You look at the table above and locate the pronoun "I" on the left column and follow it to the right to the "imperfect" column. You will see the verb, "aakulu". It means, "I am eating" or "I eat".

What about the future tense? Well, there is not such a thing as the future tense in Arabic. This is done by adding the prefix "sa" to the imperfect form of the verb. For example, let's look at the table above to find out the imperfect form of the verb "akala". It is "ya'kulu". Add the prefix "sa" to the "ya'kulu" you get, "saya'kulu" which means "He will eat"."

This proves once and for all that the verse is not talking in the past tense, as RK claimed.  Therefore, while the other translations differ in the wording and some are rather ambiguous, what we do know for sure is that they are at least not translating the verse in the past tense, which would be simply wrong.  Do yourself a favor and do some research on the Arabic language.    



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 May 2010 at 1:25pm
Yeah but to many now it seems as RK's translation clearly exposes how  the traditional interpretation of the Quran has nothing to do with the Quran itself but with heresays and stories written down hundreds of years after the Prophet's departure.


Perhaps to those who don't know enough about the language itself, such as yourself.  RK has been exposed as a fraud so many times.  I will show more examples of why he was a fraud and a liar.  Keep reading!

How is that any relevant?? What do u think normally happens to a dead body??


Well, for one thing, it gets buried in a tomb!  And yet, there is no evidence of his tomb ever being found.  There are traditions galore about the burial places of the previous prophets and messengers, including Ibrahim and Moses (peace be upon them), but no such tradition exists with regard to Jesus (pbuh), unless of course you believe the other heretical sect known as the Ahmadiyyas. 

Also, the body does not completely disintegrate.  You would still find bones. 

Ah guess work! Now thats typical!


There is no guess work about it!  Allah (swt) clearly had much more planned for Jesus.  Why else was he chosen to be the Messiah (al-Masih)? 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 May 2010 at 1:52pm
Your statement  shows not just ur EGO but also your ignorance as well.RK was not sent to finish any unfinished business of Prophet Muhammad.His mission was something different which ofcourse you have not studied at all.And with the atittude that u are displaying im pretty much sure you wouldnt  be interested or even understand it.And so i dont wish to elaborate this matter here at this point and waste my precious time.


If RK had to be sent to finally reveal the great miracle contained in the Quran, which Muhammad (pbuh) brought to the world, than the logical conclusion is that it was RK's job to complete the full revelation of the Quran.  Not only that, RK even claimed that he was the representation of the Messiah and the Mahdi!  But wait a minute.  The concept of the Mahdi is found only in the Hadiths!  Didn't RK reject the Hadiths?  Before you say that RK never claimed to be the representation of the Messiah and the Mahdi, read the following on the Submitters http://www.submission.org/millennium/mahdi.html - website :

"Through Gabriel, I was commanded to make this announcement: after I die, millions of believers will know that I represent the Messiah the Jews have been waiting for, the Christ Christians have been expecting, the Mehdi the Muslims have been praying for.  I am God's messenger of the Covenant."

The website than makes the claim that none of these figures are to ever come (it should be pointed out that the Messiah and the Christ are the same figure) and that RK's arrival was actually predicted in the Quran, which contradicts what you have said.  This guy was clearly a liar and that is why the believers rightfully reject him.

It sounds like you are planning on running away!  Your words are crystal clear! Wink

You have further displayed your EGO ,ignorance and disobedience to GOD by calling Prophet Muhammad the greatest messenger of GOD when GOD clearly commands believers not to make any distinction amoung the messengers of GOD(2:136,2:285,3:84,4:150,152).God alone has the right to give ranks to his messengers not his servants.


Yes you are right.  I will retract that part of my statement.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 May 2010 at 1:59pm
Since you have bothered to research some of RK's material ,i would also advice you to take the same enthusiasm and interest in finding the reasons to why the above was preached by RK.  Over 70 reasons atleast hav been presented as proofs to support the exclusion of the false verses which also includes non mathematical ones.


Screw his reasons!  I am more interested in why he contradicts the revelation he claimed to be upholding?  The Quran says that Allah would protect it from corruption.  So how in the hell did Satan manage to introduce two false verses?  This blasphemous statement further exposes RK as a false messenger and a liar! 

Furthermore, there is no historical evidence that any verses were added to the Quran.  It has been preserved in the exact condition as it was revealed.  RK knew this but he was so convinced by his ego that he was the messenger of God and that there was a code in the Quran, that he was willing to alter the accepted history. 

As for the temporary GOD thing, reasons for that also have been included in the appendices of RK's translation and is also easily available for verification online.


All of that is unnecessary as the whole idea of a "temporary god" runs counter to the message of the Quran.  There is no "temporary god".  There is only the One, True God, Allah.  That is it.  RK introduced a foreign concept into the divine text, and became a liar and blasphemer.  Allah will judge him as He pleases. 

I can see that you have no real responses to these embarrassing and shocking truths regarding RK.  I would advise you to review your links to his false cult.  He was lying to you and to all of his followers.  Do not be a pawn in his heretical schemes. 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 May 2010 at 2:05pm
Prophet Muhammad had never studied the previous scriptures yet he spoke of Jesus,Moses,David,Abraham etc etc..coz such information contained in the Quran.However,he was not supported by any other miracles other than the scripture like Jesus,Moses etc...


But the ultimate miracle of the Quran was unknown to him.  The miracle of the Quran was that it could not be imitated.  You interpret that as referring to the code.  He had no idea that such a code existed.  How then was the Quran a proof of his prophethood?

Yeah well then how are they any good to be presented as proofs to disprove another translation ??And also you simply have now admitted that you picked up translations, the majority of which are unclear and ambiguous and which contain errors to prove that Jesus is returning.One can easily see how ridiculous it is!
 

First of all, we are talking about one specific verse!  Just because there are variations on that one verse does not mean we should reject all translations.  At least those translations got the grammar right, unlike the liar RK.  One can easily see how ridiculous it is to follow that man. Big%20smile 


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 May 2010 at 2:11pm
And for your info.. u didnt refute anything except use 3:84 to claim that since it doesnt include Muhammad 3:81 should be talking about Muhammad.This is nothing but nonsense as far as i see.3:81 clearly talks about a covenant taken from the Prophets and 33:7 also talks about the same covenant so its very clear to me that the verses are related and the messenger in 3:81 is RK.


More rants from the pouting child.  You harp about context, but only when it allegedly supports your views.  The context of the verse means that the phrase "a messenger" refers to Muhammad (pbuh) as he is commanded in verse 84 to say that he and his followers believe in all the prophets and make no distinction between them.       


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 May 2010 at 2:27pm
Unfortunately again u fail to see light.So ur saying that the challenge and the miracle of the Quran is the richness and beauty of the Arabic in it???Well in that case the challenge wuld only apply to those who know Arabic.What relevance would this challenge have to the non arabs???How does this challenge apply to the non arabs???!!What is the point in challenging to produce a Surah in Arabic to over 95 percent of the world population when they dont speak arabic or have nothing to do with it???!So clearly.. the miraculous or unimitatable aspect of the Quran cannot be just Arabic.....


The Quran was revealed in Arabic and only the Arabic is free from error.  Do you agree?  Why then would the miracle not be in the original Arabic?  There are many non-Arabs who know Arabic.  Many scholars of Arabic are non-Arabs.  They are not even Muslims and yet they acknowledge that the Quran is an entirely different form of Arabic poetry, one that does not fall into the 16 known classifications.  It is a classification of its own, and for 1400 years, no one has imitated that.  That sounds like a miracle to me and certainly more so than some code which only works when you remove some words or alter others. 

If only you could quit nitpicking and look properly,u would see how that doesnt necessarily change the meaning of the verse in a big way.


Of course it changes the meaning!  Using the English word "unseen" is very different from using the word "future".  The former can mean many things and the latter is specific.  In addition, even if the word should be translated as "future", in the context of the verse, it would the immediate future involving the questioning party and Muhammad (pbuh).  If it was a reference to RK and his "miracle", why would Allah have said to the unbelievers to "wait"? 

Furthermore, even though I think I have already exposed RK enough, I just can't help exposing him further.  I previously gave an example of how he was inconsistent in his translation.  Well, he was also inconsistent in how he translated "ghaib".  For instance, he translated 2:3, which uses "ghaib", as saying "...who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity." Why does he translate it differently from verse to verse?  Was it the code again? 

However,Im pretty much sure that if these translators knew anything about the math miracle of the Quran and the time of its revelation, they wouldve translated it exactly the way God intended it to be.


What does that have to do with anything?  Is that what guided RK in his translation?  A preconceived notion about a mathematical code?  This is the nail in the coffin!  You have exposed RK (oh the irony!!).  He purposefully changed the meaning to fit the code and misguided himself and others.       
 



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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 May 2010 at 2:39pm
Ok so i think now u acknowledge that GOD did not reveal every thing in the Quran to Prophet Muhammad.In many verses (10:1,12:1,13:1,15:1,26:2,27:1) God called them signs or proofs of the Quran.It would make no sense at all for GOD to say that these initials are signs or proofs of the scripture if he never wanted anyone to know HOW??????!The fact is GOD does not make false proclamations in the Quran.God revealed this amazing miracle  in 1974 exactly 1406(19x74) lunar years after the Quran's revealation.And surprisingly the reference of the miracle of "19" happens to be Surah "74" titled the "Hidden one" or "Hidden Secret" !!


Only if you believe the word "ayat" means "letters".  You are using circular reasoning to prove that the verses in question are referring to those specific letters, when in reality they are referring to the Quran itself.  The first use of the letters is in 2:1, and it is followed by the words "ذَٰلِكَ ٱلْكِتَٰبُ لَا رَيْبَ ۛ فِيهِ ۛ هُدًۭى لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ" which is referring to the Book (kitabu) and not the letters themselves.  In all the other verses, the word used is "ayat" which can mean verses, signs etc., but RK decided that it should be translated as "letters".  Once again, he was basing his translation on the notion of the code.  That was the sole reason he was translating the way he did, even if it was not the correct translation. 

The word Ayah has many meanings such as verses ,signs,proofs etc.. if u dont know it please check a dictionary or other translations."Letters" in the translation are in brackets refering to Alef,Lam,Ra which i assume u know are Arabic letters or alphabets..Read carefully please.


Yes, I am aware of this.  But there is no evidence that "ayat" can also mean "letters".  Instead, as far I can see, the word for "letters" is "risalah" (رسائل).


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 27 May 2010 at 2:37pm
Any comments from Haris?

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: xx__Ace__xx
Date Posted: 12 June 2010 at 1:21am
Haris has to be high to think Jesus' second coming is false. It is clearly spoken of in the Quran.

As for the question of his second coming "making him the last prophet", I kinda find it mediocre. Bare in mind this is his second coming, IMO. He was one of the Prophets sent earlier, before Muhammad SAW, so how the heck does it make him the last one? His second coming won't be to bring a new Islamic law, but to follow Muhammad SAW's, as Islamispeace pointed out earlier.

Woah woah woah, and reading Islamispeace's post, this guy RK sounds like a complete fraud. If anyone would tell me his full name or a bit about him? I gotta Google him up to see what all lies he's bluffed Big%20smile


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Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 12 June 2010 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by xx__Ace__xx

Haris has to be high to think Jesus' second coming is false. It is clearly spoken of in the Quran.

As for the question of his second coming "making him the last prophet", I kinda find it mediocre. Bare in mind this is his second coming, IMO. He was one of the Prophets sent earlier, before Muhammad SAW, so how the heck does it make him the last one? His second coming won't be to bring a new Islamic law, but to follow Muhammad SAW's, as Islamispeace pointed out earlier.

Woah woah woah, and reading Islamispeace's post, this guy RK sounds like a complete fraud. If anyone would tell me his full name or a bit about him? I gotta Google him up to see what all lies he's bluffed Big%20smile


As-salaam alaikum brother Ace Smile

RK stands for Rashad Khalifa.  He claimed to be a messenger of God and believed that a mathematical code revolving around the number 19 existed in the Quran.  He founded the United Submitters International, a group which claims to represent true Islam.  They reject the Hadiths as fabrications and consider the Quran to be the source.  Hence they are also known as "Quran-only" movement.  RK was murdered in Arizona in 1990.


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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: xx__Ace__xx
Date Posted: 12 June 2010 at 4:18pm
Walaikum Assallam.

Ahaan, thanks for the knowledge. Sounds a little similar to the weird Shia beliefs I've heard about, except it crosses the non-sensual limit by an even ridiculous margin when he claims himself to be a messenger -_-


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Posted By: tayek1967
Date Posted: 25 April 2012 at 4:58am
The same reason which u point out may be happen & create same situation now. so we say that make a platform to return  jesus second time in the world. I sharing with u & your valuable topic. thanks.


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 13 July 2012 at 3:53pm
I don't think it is in the Qur'an, but I rather think in figurative sense that he will return. The believe of him as a person staying somewhere up there waiting for the right moment to move down is not pretty. 



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