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Perso-Arabic script on Pakistani Vessel. Urdu?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Regional
Forum Name: Asia-Pacific
Forum Discription: Asia-Pacific
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16392
Printed Date: 17 September 2014 at 6:44pm


Topic: Perso-Arabic script on Pakistani Vessel. Urdu?
Posted By: Kashigar
Subject: Perso-Arabic script on Pakistani Vessel. Urdu?
Date Posted: 25 February 2010 at 4:49pm

Hello Folks,

Looking for some direction for the script used on a pot in my possession. The pot is either from Sindh or Multan & most likely from the late 19th century. I had one Urdu knowledgable chap take a look at it - but he could make out only a few words.  There are chips to the script that encircle the vessel which makes it more difficult. At any rate, I would be most grateful if someone could at least recognize the language that is being used. Thanks in advance for any thoughts, suggestions or input.

 



Replies:
Posted By: Kashigar
Date Posted: 06 March 2010 at 1:04pm
Can anybody read any words at all?  Even to rule in or rule out the language as either Urdu, Saraiki, or Sindhi  - would be an immense help!
 
Shukran Gazillan  -  Bahut Bahut shukria  - Thank you very much!!!!


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 20 March 2010 at 8:10am
Well it is definitely in the Urdu Script (Urdu Script is almost the same as Arabic with just a few alphabet difference). Saraiki & Sindhi is also written in the same script, with common words so it may be difficult to identify unless words can be read properly.

It is very hard to read it (atleast for me, because of the chipping and the writing itself)

Picture 1 is the clearest though. And I am pretty sure it says "Dukaandar Muhammad Ishaaq" - which translates to "Shopkeeper Muhammad Ishaaq". (Probably denoting name of shopkeeper )

2nd Picture: Can only make out first word, "Wafadaari" which means "Faithfulness". The second word may be "Nu" which is used in Saraiki. Don't know meaning. Though I am not sure it says "Nu" - because it is only a "Dot" away from being "Tu" which means "You". Although if you could confirm it is indeed "Nu" - it is for sure a Saraiki word.

3rd Picture: Again, can make out first word "Yaari" - which means "Friendship" but can also denote "romantic relations".

4th Picture: Can make out second word "Duniya" - which means "World".

Hope that helps, that is all I could gather.






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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 20 March 2010 at 8:35am
PS: My father seems to think it is probably Persian ! (like I said, same script and similar words)

His version:
  • dukandar (shopkeeper) mohammad ishaq
  • wafadarai (loyalty) shaweedam
  • yari (friendship) nadeedam agaredam
So now you have one more possibility on the list. lol !




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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Kashigar
Date Posted: 21 March 2010 at 12:47pm
Hi Chrysalis - thanks so much to you & your Dad for your time & translation help!
 
I looked at the inscriptions carefully again and edited the photos by 'whitening in' areas of script that I thought might be unclear from a distant viewer's perspective. This may help(or not) to identify or confirm another word or two .... but my suspicion is that 'Shopkeeper Mohammad Ishaq' is the real gem & only identifying information provided  by he who created it - the other lines of script being some kind/auspicious words for the end purchaser of the pottery vase. Perhaps it was commissioned for a special occasion or wedding at one time - hard to say. 
 
Quite sure that it is from either Halla, Tatta or Multan though .....
 
Bahut Bahut shukria 


Posted By: Kashigar
Date Posted: 01 December 2010 at 8:06pm
 Hi Folks,
 
I have another vessel of Pakistani origin that needs translation. This one is almost certainly from Hala & made pre-partition. Since the calligraphy encircles the vessel, I have made a collage of photos(you will have to scroll to your right to see all the images) that follow the words in sequence around the vase. If anybody can idea the phrases, a few words, or even the language used - I would most grateful once again. Thank you all in advance.
 
hc
 
 


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 02 December 2010 at 9:54pm
While I could read/comprehend some words. I have no clue what it is saying.

Urdu can be ruled out.

It could be Pashto, Persian OR Saraiki. All have same script and some common vocabulary.

They do look a lot like poetic verses. From the choice of words it seems like a lovelorn poetry of some sort.

"Ya Ilaahi" Oh Lord. (used only for God)

"Sang dil" - stone-hearted/ hard-hearted/  "Mahboob" - beloved/loved one

"Pareshan" - anxious/worried

"Mom dil" - soft hearted. (Mom literally means candle-wax hence heart as soft as candle-wax. It is also used sometimes to say, my heart melted (with sympathy or love). Mom-dil is the antonym of Sang-dil. Maybe author is comparing himself to his cruel beloved....lol.

"Shams" - sun.

"Khuda khwahi" - Khuda is God in persian but don't know how to explain full word. It may mean 'spirituality'. One who turns to God.

"Khush" - happy

"Masjid guzaari" - Masjid - mosque. Full word could mean, spending time in the Mosque OR frequenting the mosque.

"Naubahar Gul" - is definitely a name. Sounds like a Pashtun/Pathhan name. Of a female I think. (means everblooming flower. However even men may be called 'Gul' flower.)

"Ya Rabb" - Oh God.

"Bhaij" - send

"Tayyar shud" - ready (manufactured, made)

"school of" - Those words simple say 'school of' in the arabic script. Why would they use an english phrase? might not be that old after all. Its not very common to mix english words in classical poetry. Strange.

"Judda" - separate.

Hope that helps. Btw just curious, why are you interested in what it says?









-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 02 December 2010 at 10:03pm

I circled the words on the image in paint. But i cannot figure out how to upload an image....

PS: The design seems like that of classical multani pottery. It may be from Multan. And Saraiki is spoken in Multan.


-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Kashigar
Date Posted: 03 December 2010 at 3:07pm

Hi Chrysalis,

Thank you so very much for this translation!!!! You will need to find a third party host to upload the edited picture to .... then you can load it via the software on this thread .... or you can send it to me and I can post it(disregard the brackets and fill in @ for at & . for dot:

 

Now to answer your questions. First of all why am I interested in what it says?

You would think I would have been satisfied alone with the beautiful blend of flora & calligraphy in hues of cobalt & copper oxides. However curiosity killed the cat & there's always a chance of a tidbit of provenance/identification when so much script is present.

Those words simple say 'school of' in the arabic script. Why would they use an english phrase? might not be that old after all. Its not very common to mix english words in classical poetry. Strange.

I don't think so strange. These pots were almost always commissioned by travellers, mostly Britishers. They saw the beautiful calligraphy on the tombs & monuments and they wanted a momento of similar artistic content. Sometimes they would write down what they wanted in english - to have it translated & written into Perso-Arabic script, sometimes they wanted poetry, sometimes Quran passages, sometimes they left it up to kashigar who would then have to pass it onto the calligrapher. 

 
However, the best laid plans of mice & men often go astray  - and what was intended to be written often gets altered a bit, lost in translation or perhaps totally changed if there were any reservations ore uneasy feelings about the content of the calligraphy requested. So with that in mind the words should be taken in consideration with the "context" of which & by who they were commissioned.

 

Unfortunately not alot is written or known about early years of this glazed ornamental pottery, an industry that really only came to be as function of the Great Exhibition of 1851, subsequent exhibitions & the onset of the British Raj.

Oh sure, the glazed tile industries flourished in Multan & Sindh, in particular, for centuries before - but the ornamental surahis & plates, & bowls etc. were mostly a newer creation(post 1851) made for export to London etc. or for those tourists who wished a memory of the subcontinent ... and in the process ressurected the glazing technique which had been somewhat dormant for several decades.



Posted By: Kashigar
Date Posted: 03 December 2010 at 5:51pm
 
Hi Chrysalis,
 
Googling some of the translations/words/phrases you gave me - I came up with following find. Could it be (in part) a ghazal from the Hafiz e Shiraz?
 
 
English & Urdu Translation of Hafiz 13
English and Urdu translation of the odes of Hafiz e Shiraz, the Sun God of poetry
 
 
Ghazal 13



Persian:  Hungam e naubahar gul az bostan juda
              Ya Rab mabaad heech kus az doostan juda
Urdu:      Gul say bahar maen na kero gulsitan juda
              Hotay haen dostoun say kabhee dostan juda
English:=== Oh, pluck not a flower from the garden in spring
                  Just think of the sorrow such parting will bring
 
See the rest of the translation here:

http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/1331580-English--Urdu-Translation-of-Hafiz-13 - http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/1331580-English--Urdu-Translation-of-Hafiz-13
 
 


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 05 December 2010 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by Kashigar

 
Hi Chrysalis,
 
Googling some of the translations/words/phrases you gave me - I came up with following find. Could it be (in part) a ghazal from the Hafiz e Shiraz?

Persian:  Hungam e naubahar gul az bostan juda
              Ya Rab mabaad heech kus az doostan juda
 


You hit the nail on the head!

It most certainly is this verse. I can now make out words that I couldn't before. Such as 'dostan' and 'heech'. What I read as 'bhaij' is actually 'heej'. The words are fitting into the puzzle. Good job!

Will try to upload the image today if i can.






-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Kashigar
Date Posted: 07 December 2010 at 6:28pm

Thanks again Chrysalis, verses by Hafiz, the 'Musician of Words' - I'm very intrigued. Big%20smile

 
Unfortunately, I can't quite seem to make out your written translations on the image.  It might well be my old/aging computer screen or perhaps it would be possible to upload a slightly larger file image size - in so that your red text translation is a bit more legible?
 
No hurry at all, at your convenience.


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 07 December 2010 at 7:39pm
Originally posted by Kashigar

 
Unfortunately, I can't quite seem to make out your written translations on the image.  It might well be my old/aging computer screen or perhaps it would be possible to upload a slightly larger file image size - in so that your red text translation is a bit more legible?
 
No hurry at all, at your convenience.


I think the size got distorted while uploading/downloading/using Paint. I'm not very tech-efficient ;)




-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."



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