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Is the Bible Still the Word of God?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15160
Printed Date: 19 December 2014 at 4:20am


Topic: Is the Bible Still the Word of God?
Posted By: Shibboleth
Subject: Is the Bible Still the Word of God?
Date Posted: 06 August 2009 at 1:09pm

 Sometimes a different objection is raised. Some feel that the Bible was the Word of God, but it has been distorted and corrupted by men so that now we can no longer trust it. Can this be true?

 Let us repeat a verse from the Qur’an. But now we will discuss it from a different angle. “After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah’s revelations.”—Sura 5, Al-Ma’ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.  (The Qur'an also accepts Jesus as the son of God,just as it does Adam)

 If, at the time these words were written, the Bible had already been corrupted, how could believers in the Gospel ‘judge in accordance with what Allah had revealed therein’? Thus believers in the Qur’an accept that the Bible was uncorrupted at the time the Qur’an was written (about one thousand three hundred years ago). On the other hand, there exist manuscripts of the Bible written four hundred or five hundred years before that time that are on public display in museums today. When comparing our modern Bibles with these ancient manuscripts, it is easily seen that there is no significant difference. The Bible is substantially the same. Certainly, the Bible has not changed since those words were written in the Qur’an saying that in the Gospel “there is guidance and light.”

 Thus, a person who believes in the Qur’an will agree that the Bible has not been corrupted and that it is still the Word of God. But even for people who do not believe in the Qur’an there is abundant proof that the Bible has not been corrupted by men since its original writing. What proof? Ancient manuscripts.

 Regarding the preserving of the Greek Scriptures (Injil) until our day, a scientist pointed out: “The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed.” (The Bible and Archaeology, by Sir Frederic Kenyon) Sir Frederic Kenyon is here expressing the widely accepted fact that we can read in the Greek Scriptures (Injil) substantially what the original writers, under inspiration, put there. There has been no gross distortion.

 Regarding the Hebrew Scriptures (Tevrat), the external proof is equally strong that they have been preserved faithfully. The ancient copyists of those scriptures were renowned for their accuracy. Today there are seventeen hundred ancient manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures of the Bible in existence, and comparison shows them to be substantially the same. In 1947, some very ancient manuscripts were discovered in the region of the Dead Sea. They included some that were a thousand years older than any hitherto extant. Yet a comparison of these ancient manuscripts with our modern Bible shows little significant variation, especially with regard to teaching and doctrine. After examining these newly discovered ancient documents, Professor Millar Burrows said: “The general reader and student of the Bible may be satisfied to note that nothing in all this changes our understanding of the religious teachings of the Bible . . . The essential truth and the will of God revealed in the Bible, however, have been preserved unchanged through all the vicissitudes in the transmission of the text.”—The Dead Sea Scrolls, by Millar Burrows.

 Is this not reasonable? Should we not expect that the Almighty God would be able to preserve his Word uncorrupted? The Bible itself says: “The green grass has dried up, the blossom has withered; but as for the word of our God, it will last to time indefinite.”—Isaiah 40:8.




Replies:
Posted By: Natassia
Date Posted: 19 August 2009 at 5:33am

Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

 
(I won't get into the logical fallacies required to justify that belief.)


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You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)


Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 22 August 2009 at 10:43am
Originally posted by Natassia

Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

 
(I won't get into the logical fallacies required to justify that belief.)
alaikum salaam
jeremiah 8:8
 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
       for we have the law of the LORD,"
       when actually the lying pen of the scribes
       has handled it falsely?
 
he thought it was full of lies also
leland


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love for all conquers all


Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 22 August 2009 at 10:56am
Originally posted by Natassia

Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

 
(I won't get into the logical fallacies required to justify that belief.)
salaams
and what of Paul?   Jesus reafirms the law and states in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=18&version=31&context=verse - Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
 
but Paul nullifies the law when he states
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=11&version=31&context=verse - Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
also
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - Galatians 3:23
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
 
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=28&version=31&context=verse - Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=16&version=31&context=verse - Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

So how do you think jesus {p} would think of paul making the law dissapear?

leland

 


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love for all conquers all


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 22 August 2009 at 8:01pm

"Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

WOW! Putting the 'cart' before the 'horse'

Real science!



Are you a true Muslim or a Muhammadan?


Sura 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11

 The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.  
 Sura 6:34; 10:34 
All these above texts presuppose the availability of the true revelation of God to the people of Muhammad's day.
 -Sura 3:71,93; 10:94; 21:71       
A true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God. Sura 2:136; 4:136; 29:46
The Quran makes no distinction between God's revelations
Sura 2:136 

Many luminaries of 'Islam' believe the Bible to be true:

 

1. Ali al Tabari (d 855) who accepted the Gospel texts

 

2. Al Bukhari (810-870)

 

3. Al Mas'udi (956)

 

4. Abu Ali husain bin Sina (1037)

 

5. Al Ghazali (1111) who did not accept his teachings

 

6. Ibn Khaldun (1406) ditto.

  It is not up to the People of the Book to prove their Book is uncorrupted but up to the Muhammadans to do so based on any 'original' book that would show these corruptions.

I'll wait for you or anyone to produce that book with the corruptions, or does it just sound nice to repeat what you heard over and over again without even asking or showing a shred of evidence to support your argument.

Thank you


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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 23 August 2009 at 7:29am
salaams shibboleth
 
  i give the bible itself:
 JEREMIAH 88 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
       for we have the law of the LORD,"
       when actually the lying pen of the scribes
       has handled it falsely
?
jeremiah was accusing them of " padding the books" so to speak!
leland


-------------
love for all conquers all


Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 26 August 2009 at 11:02am

Salam Shibboleth

"Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

WOW! Putting the 'cart' before the 'horse'

Real science!

Actually that is the real reason why Muslims believe the Bible to be corrupt. Even if there were no contradictions, no scientific errors, no historical inconsistencies in the Bible, Muslims would still believe Bible to be corrupt because it contradicts the Quran. But your cart/horse analogy does not work here. A better explanation is that Muslims believe Quran to be the word of God for various reasons. So if any book contradicts it, it has to be wrong.

Are you a true Muslim or a Muhammadan?
What's a Muhammadan?

Sura 2:40-42,126,136,285; 3:3,71,93; 4:47,136; 5:47-51, 69,71-72; 6:91; 10:37,94; 21:7; 29:45,46; 35:31; 46:11

These verses say that Quran confirms previous revelations, not the Bible. There is a difference

The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.  
 Sura 6:34; 10:34 
. Let’s read the context of the first verse. 
006.033 قَدْ نَعْلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَيَحْزُنُكَ الَّذِي يَقُولُونَ فَإِنَّهُمْ لا
 يُكَذِّبُونَكَ وَلَكِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ
 بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ يَجْحَدُونَ
006.033 We know indeed the grief which their words do cause
 thee: It is not thee they reject: it is the signs of Allah
, which the wicked contemn.
Al-Qur'an, 006.033 (Al-Anaam [Cattle, Livestock])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software 
v2.910
Here Allah is talking to prophet Muhammad. An Islamic scholar Maududi 
explains the following verse 
The fact is that before the Prophet Muhammad (peace be on 
him) began to preach the message of God, all his people 
regarded him as truthful and trustworthy and had full 
confidence in his veracity. Only after he had begun to 
preach the message of God did they call him a liar.
Now imagine one moment you’re hailed as a truthful and respectable person,
 the next day people start labelling you as a deluded person and start mocking 
you. That happened to prophet Muhammad. In these verses, God is trying to 
comfort prophet Muhammad. 

006.034 وَلَقَدْ كُذِّبَتْ رُسُلٌ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ فَصَبَرُوا عَلَى

مَا كُذِّبُوا وَأُوذُوا حَتَّى أَتَاهُمْ نَصْرُنَا وَلا مُبَدِّلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللَّهِ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَكَ مِنْ نَبَإِ الْمُرْسَلِينَ
006.034 Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs,

Here Allah says that it has happened before. Prophets have been derided and 
they exhibited patience in the face of rejection.
 until Our aid did reach them: 
Now God says that He always helps His messengers. Then He says:
there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast
 thou received some account of those messengers.
As you can see from the context, the word of Allah here does not mean Torah
, Gospel etc. It simply means that no one can change the law of God regarding 
the clash of truth and falsehood. The Explanation given by Maududi is 
The point emphasized here is that no one has the power to 
change God's Law regarding the conflict between Truth and 
falsehood. Lovers of Truth must of necessity pass through 
trials and persecution so as to be gradually tempered. 
Their endurance, their honastyy of conviction, their 
readiness to sacrifice and to undertake all risk for their
 cause, the strength of their faith and the extent of 
their trust in God must be tested. They must pass through
 this phase of persecution to develop in thenselves those
 qualities which can be developed nowhere else but on 
earth. They are also required to defeat the forces of 
ignorance by virtue of their moral excellence and the 
nobility of their character. Only after they have 
established their moral superiority over their adversaries
 will God's help arrive. No one can secure that help before
 hand.( http://www.tafheem.net/ - www.tafheem.net )
010.034 قُلْ هَلْ مِنْ شُرَكَائِكُمْ مَنْ يَبْدَأُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ قُلِ اللَّهُ يَبْدَأُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ فَأَنَّى تُؤْفَكُونَ
010.034 Say: "Of your 'partners', can any originate creation and repeat it?" 
Say:  "It is Allah Who originates creation and repeats it: then how are ye 
deluded away (from the truth)?"
Allah is telling prophet Muhammad to ask the pagans of Makkah whether their 
gods had the capability to create something from nothing and then reproduce 
it? Polytheists generally consider even their gods to be limited in power. 
This verse underlines that fact. No reference to the gospel/torah here. 

 

I think you are referring to 10:94, not 10:34. But before discussing that, let me give you the Muslim perspective of the Bible. We believe that those parts of the Bible which match with the Quran may be God’s word e.g prophecies regarding prophet Muhammad. Those parts which conflict Quran are certainly not God’s word e.g God resting on the seventh day (in Islam God does not require rest). Those portions which neither conflict with Quran nor agree with it may or may not be God’s word. But as a whole, Muslims do not require the Bible since we have the Quran which is complete guidance to us. Now as for the context of Chapter 10 of Quran, it tells us the story of  prophet Moses in the context. It was impossible for an illiterate man in the middle of the desert to be aware of that story. So after the narration, Allah tells us that prophet Muhammad is not making this story up. You can go and ask the Jews about prophet Moses. They will tell you pretty much the same story.

 

010.094 فَإِنْ كُنْتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِمَّا أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْ قَبْلِكَ لَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فَلا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ

010.094 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee:  the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Al-Qur'an, 010.094 (Yunus [Jonah])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

This verse does not say that no one can change God’s word. I have no idea how you came up with that.

A true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God. Sura 2:136; 4:136; 29:46

Completely agree here. We should believe in all previous revelations of God and not their corrupted and unauthentic forms.

The Quran makes no distinction between God's revelations
Sura 2:136 

Let me take a stab in the dark. You have never read Quran in context. You have never read these verses carefully or in context. Am I right?

 

002.136 قُولُوا آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ لا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

002.136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

 

Al-Qur'an, 002.136 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])

 

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

Here Allah is telling us not to distinguish between messengers, meaning I cannot say that I believe in Muhammad but I don’t believe in Jesus. Where did you get the idea that Quran makes no distinctions between God’s revelations?

 

1. Ali al Tabari (d 855) who accepted the Gospel texts

 

2. Al Bukhari (810-870)

 

3. Al Mas'udi (956)

 

4. Abu Ali husain bin Sina (1037)

 

5. Al Ghazali (1111) who did not accept his teachings

 

6. Ibn Khaldun (1406) ditto

Even I will accept the ”Gospel text” if the gospel here is the gospel of Jesus revealed by God. But by gospel if you mean gospels of Mark, Luke, John, Mathew then all Muslims along with many historians agree that these scriptures have been corrupted and we don’t even know who their true authors are.

In reality it is not up to the People of the Book to 
prove their Book is uncorrupted 
I agree. Why should you be given a task which is 
impossible?
but up to the Muhammadans to do so based on any 'original'
 book that would show these corruptions.
I’m not sure what you mean by “Muhammadans”. But anyway, Muslims don’t
 need to disprove the Bible by presenting another original book which has been
 lost by Christians. They can simply do that by pointing out scientific and
 mathematical errors, internal contradictions
( http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/contradictions_in_nt.htm - http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/contradictions_in_nt.htm ) , and verses which implicate prophets committing adultery (Gen 19:33-36 here prophet lot drank wine and slept with his daughter, twice. How can prophets, best of human beings commit incest? This clearly proves that this account of Lot along with many other verses of the Bible is forgery).
I'll wait for you or anyone to produce that book with the 
corruptions, 
You are waiting for us to produce a book with corruptions? Well there is the 
Bible…..
 or does it just sound nice to repeat what you heard over 
and over again without even asking or showing a shred of 
evidence to support your argument.
I agree that it wouldn’t be okay if a Muslim says Bible is corrupt over and over
 again without any shred of evidence. But the problem for us is that there is 
just so much evidence that it would be difficult to give it all. So I’ll just give 
some proof that Bible is corrupted. 
 http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm - http://www.answering-christianity.com/contra.htm 
 http://www.jamaat.net/bible/BibleIntro.html - http://www.jamaat.net/bible/BibleIntro.html 
I hope that’s more than a “shred” of evidence
Peace

 



Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 27 August 2009 at 1:40pm
Long story short Ali; was the Bible corrupt when Muhammad received the 'revelation of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel?' Just answer the question....

BTW; 

Ibn Ishaq who wrote the earliest biography (Sirat) of Muhammad. He clearly indentifies the Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an as what Christians call the New Testament.

Among the things which have reached me about what Jesus the Son of Mary stated in the Gospel which he received from God for the followers of the Gospel, in applying a term to describe the apostle of God, is the following. It is extracted from what John the Apostle set down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary (Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", translated as "The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, Karachi: Oxford, 1998, pp. 103-104, bold added.)

All you new 19th century followers are just changing what was previously said centuries ago to fit your own belief belief, going against your own holy book and your own prophet and your own god.




-------------
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 28 August 2009 at 1:47am
Why do you care what Muslims believe or do not believe? it is SO odd...

maybe you are feeling a bit threatened... hmmm..

Do you go onto Jewish web sites and argue there too? What about Buddhist websites?? just curious... lol


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 August 2009 at 8:53am

"Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

WOW! Putting the 'cart' before the 'horse'

Real science!



Are you a true Muslim or a Muhammadan?
 
Yeah Natassia, answer the man/woman. Are you a true Muslim or a Mohammedan? 
With fellow Christian brain-trusts like this on the forum we'll be seeing mass conversions to Christianity in record time....


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 30 August 2009 at 7:46am
 
 "Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."
 
 Yes the Bible is corrupt.Even the Biblical scholar Dr.Bart Ehrman admits it.
 
 Recommended Link:
 
  http://www.bartdehrman.com/books/misquoting_jesus.htm - Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why By Dr.Bart Ehrman
 
 
 


Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 30 August 2009 at 10:43am
Long story short Ali; was the Bible corrupt when Muhammad received the 'revelation of the Torah, Psalms and Gospel?' Just answer the question....
In short, yes. Because as the Quran says

002.079 فَوَيْلٌ لِلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَذَا مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلا فَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَهُمْ مِمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ
002.079 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
Al-Qur'an, 002.079 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910
And
002.075 أَفَتَطْمَعُونَ أَنْ يُؤْمِنُوا لَكُمْ وَقَدْ كَانَ فَرِيقٌ مِنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلامَ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا عَقَلُوهُ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ
002.075 Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.
Al-Qur'an, 002.075 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])
Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

BTW; 

Ibn Ishaq who wrote the earliest biography (Sirat) of Muhammad. He clearly indentifies the Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an as what Christians call the New Testament.

Yeah, I read what you quoted. It is REALLY out of context, but I got the general idea.  

 

Among the things which have reached me about what Jesus the Son of Mary stated in the Gospel which he received from God for the followers of the Gospel, in applying a term to describe the apostle of God, is the following.
Ibn Ishaq is trying to quote how Jesus described prophet Muhammad and he says here that my quotes have been extracted from the gospel of John.
It is extracted from what John the Apostle set down for them when he wrote the Gospel for them from the Testament of Jesus Son of Mary (Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", translated as "The Life of Muhammad", by A. Guillaume, Karachi: Oxford, 1998, pp. 103-104, bold added.)

Now if Ibn Ishaq is quoting from the gospel of John (he probably quoted John 14:16, 15:26, 16:7 which foretell prophet Muhammad) that does not mean that Bible is not corrupt. When Muslim say that Bible is corrupt, we don't mean that each and every word has been changed completely. We say that many passages of the Bible are unauthentic though not all. So how do we differentiate between those passages. We group the Bible into 3 parts.
1) Those parts which match with the Quran may be the word of God. For example Duet 18:18, Ezakiel 18:20-21. They agree with Islam
2) Those parts which contradict Quran must have been added by human beings. For example prophet lot drinking wine....and then committing adultery..........with his own daughters.......twice. (Gen19:31-36). In Islam, prophets are the best of people and don't commit petty crimes. And no Muslim will ever agree that Jesus referred to Gentiles (non-Jews) as dogs (Mathew 15:25-27). And the illogical numerical/scientific contradiction also fall in this category.
3) Those parts which neither match nor contradict Quran. We don't know whether those are true or false.

So what Ibn Ishaq probably quoted was in accordance with Islam since it predicted prophet Muhammad.

All you new 19th century followers are just changing what was previously said centuries ago to fit your own belief belief, going against your own holy book and your own prophet and your own god.

On the contrary, we will go against Quran if we start believing that prophet lot committed incest i.e Bible is authentic.
Peace


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 31 August 2009 at 4:30am
 
 Only 1 verse of Quran is enough to prove that Bible is corrupt.
 
 004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
 Here is another explicit verse speaking of Bible corruption, the Quran states that if anyone believes that Jesus died and was crucified they then follow nothing but CONJECTURE which is corruption. Which book today tells us that Jesus died and was crucified? The Bible, so hence the Quran here does call the Bible corrupt. So it can't get anymore clear than that.


Posted By: Meditations
Date Posted: 31 August 2009 at 10:46pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth

On the other hand, there exist manuscripts of the Bible written four hundred or five hundred years before that time that are on public display in museums today.


If your statement is true , this would mean that these manuscripts were written around the years 115 - 215

Where are these manuscripts , which museums , which language is it written in , and what it's percentage compared with the current bible ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth


When comparing our modern Bibles with these ancient manuscripts, it is easily seen that there is no significant difference. The Bible is substantially the same.


Which language were these ancients mauscripts written in , and which 'modern' bible are you comparing it with ?

This foundation is trying to translate the bible from aramic straight to english ,
http://www.noohra.com/
They found numerous differences between the 'modern' king james version and their translation

examples of the differences :

Job 12:6

The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly. (KJV)

The tents of robbers shall perish, and the assurance of those who incite God because there is no God in their hearts. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Job 31:10

Then let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her. (KJV)

Then let my wife grind (meal) for others and let her bake bread at another man's place. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Psalm 7:11

God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day. (KJV)

God is a just judge and He is not angry every day. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Psalm 23:2

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; he leadeth me beside the still waters. (KJV)

And he makes me to dwell in pastures of strength. He guides me by refreshing waters. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Psalm 23:6

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life; and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. (KJV)

Your loving kindness and compassion have pursued me all the days of my life; and I shall live in the house of the Lord for the length of days. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Psalm 46:10

Be still and know that I am God! (KJV)

Return to me and know that I am God! (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Isaiah 43:28

Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse and Israel to reproaches. (KJV)

You princes have defiled the holy place (the sanctuary); therefore I have given Jacob to the curse and Israel to shame. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Jeremiah 4:10

Then said I, ah Lord God; surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; wheras the sword reacheth unto the soul. (KJV)

Then I said, I implore you, O Lord God, truly, I have deceived this people and Jerusalem exceedingly because I have said, You will have peace, and behold, the slain sword reaches as far as the soul. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Matthew 5:3

Blessed are the poor in spirit; for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (KJV)

Delighted are those who surrender to God, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

Matthew 6:34

Take therefore no thought for the morrow; for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (KJV)

Now do not worry about tomorrow, because tomorrow will take care of itself. Enough for the day is its own trouble. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

John 1:14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten son of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (KJV)

And the Word took human form and dwelt (tented) among us; and we saw his preciousness (glory), a preciousness like that of an only beloved son of the Father, who is filled with loving kindness and justice. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

2 Timothy 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. (KJV)

All scripture that is written by the Spirit is useful for teaching, correction, right action, and for instruction in justice (piety). (Errico -- Aramaic text)

2 Peter 1:21

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

For prophecy at no time ever came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke when they were impelled by the Holy Spirit. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

1 Corinthians 7:18

Is any man called being circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. (KJV)

If any man were circumcised when he was called, let him not turn to the party of the uncircumcised. (Errico -- Aramaic text)




Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 01 September 2009 at 7:28am
It is different


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 01 September 2009 at 3:53pm
Yes,
I agree brother AKA. its very different in fact. I particularly like to mention this one:

John 1:14

And the Word took human form (Like we say the Prophet (pbuh) was a walking talking Quran) and dwelt (tented) among us; and we saw his preciousness (glory), a preciousness like that of an only beloved son of the Father, who is filled with loving kindness and justice. (Errico -- Aramaic text)

"Like" is the key word here. It is so clear and different to say "Like an only beloved son" vs " Only begotten of the Father."

Omitting, adding and subtracting surely messes up things, and simply misleads.

May God guide those, who truly seek His guidence.
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 02 September 2009 at 2:44am
Is the Bible Still the Word of God?
 
Even thou I use verses to support some of my writings, i don't think so because there are so many versions (KJV, NKJV, NIV, catholic one to just name a few) that its impossible at times to choose which one to buy, some have verses that others don't and then some have verses differently worded.
It drives me insane its one book that is hard to buy Wink unfortunately Cry 
And then there is the old age of me saying that there is evidence of words being rubbed out of the oldest bibles and replaced.
 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 02 September 2009 at 5:51am
Salams, Meditation and Hasan good job!Somebody(men) messed up big time with the bible.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 02 September 2009 at 7:51am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

 
 Only 1 verse of Quran is enough to prove that Bible is corrupt.
 
 004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
 Here is another explicit verse speaking of Bible corruption, the Quran states that if anyone believes that Jesus died and was crucified they then follow nothing but CONJECTURE which is corruption. Which book today tells us that Jesus died and was crucified? The Bible, so hence the Quran here does call the Bible corrupt. So it can't get anymore clear than that.
 
 
Ohhh, i have much to say in this bit but right now keep it real brief.
 
That is not enough to prove from qu'ran that the bible is corrupt. I can say that from the qu'ran this is conjecture, myself. I kinda believe that once the romans had Jesus they would not have let him out of their sight.
 
I don't think the verse of they killed him not, but made it to appear so...is enough to make out the bible is corrupt. 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 September 2009 at 8:20am
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

 
 Only 1 verse of Quran is enough to prove that Bible is corrupt.
 
 004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
 Here is another explicit verse speaking of Bible corruption, the Quran states that if anyone believes that Jesus died and was crucified they then follow nothing but CONJECTURE which is corruption. Which book today tells us that Jesus died and was crucified? The Bible, so hence the Quran here does call the Bible corrupt. So it can't get anymore clear than that.
 
 
Ohhh, i have much to say in this bit but right now keep it real brief.
 
That is not enough to prove from qu'ran that the bible is corrupt. I can say that from the qu'ran this is conjecture, myself. I kinda believe that once the romans had Jesus they would not have let him out of their sight.
 
I don't think the verse of they killed him not, but made it to appear so...is enough to make out the bible is corrupt. 
 
I think that the Bible itself is sufficient proof that it is corrupt.
 
I had never read the Quran, nor knew anything about Islam, when I started having serious doubts about Christianity. It was my search for the truth that brought me to read the Quran, not the other way round.
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 02 September 2009 at 11:03am
 
 Ohhh, i have much to say in this bit but right now keep it real brief.
 
That is not enough to prove from qu'ran that the bible is corrupt. I can say that from the qu'ran this is conjecture, myself. I kinda believe that once the romans had Jesus they would not have let him out of their sight.
 
I don't think the verse of they killed him not, but made it to appear so...is enough to make out the bible is corrupt.
 
 Surah 4:157
 
 And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
 
 The verse is making it clear that the crucifixion of Jesus is conjecture or corruption. The crucifixion of Jesus is clearly taught in the Gospels that we have today, thus the Qur'an is clearly in an indirect way saying that this is corrupted. 
 
 
 
 
  
  


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 September 2009 at 2:10pm
Originally posted by Angel

Is the Bible Still the Word of God?
 
Even thou I use verses to support some of my writings, i don't think so because there are so many versions (KJV, NKJV, NIV, catholic one to just name a few) that its impossible at times to choose which one to buy, some have verses that others don't and then some have verses differently worded.
It drives me insane its one book that is hard to buy Wink unfortunately Cry 
And then there is the old age of me saying that there is evidence of words being rubbed out of the oldest bibles and replaced.
 
 
Hi Angel,
If we believe that God's word needs to stay pure and in its original form unaltered, and that the word of God proves as such when it is in 100% agreement within itself, a prime quality of divine messege. You and I know so far that in the case of the Bible's its not so. Thus, it cannot qualify as the word of God in its present condition. Since it is not authentic, it cannot be relied upon as the information it gives out cannot be trusted. We can read it as a book, but in my opinion cannot rely on what it says. I hope you understand what I am trying to convey. By saying this in no way I intend to defame, degrade anything or anybody, just plain truthful honest conclusion backed by facts, and its not the end of the road neither.
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 02 September 2009 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt


I think that the Bible itself is sufficient proof that it is corrupt.

 

I had never read the Quran, nor knew anything about Islam, when I started having serious doubts about Christianity. It was my search for the truth that brought me to read the Quran, not the other way round.

 

 
Salams I felt the same and when I first read the Qur'an and came across the Ayat that said we were all born in a state of Al Islam and our parents made us Jews and Christians I knew that it was Haqq,because it spoke to me and had me wanting to hear more.I knew that I was lead to Al Islam (Al Hamduillah) and not like Christianity(leaving out the religion of the first Prophets(As) which is so very clear) we were forced fed that so to say.I took a long look at history and who runs things(whose telling his-story)we were all getting told what they wanted us to know and not what we should know(Muhammad S.A.W the seal of the Prophets).Even the bible says somewhere seek and ye shall find.I did and I found The Deen of Al Haqq(Al Hamduillah!)


Posted By: Moses
Date Posted: 03 September 2009 at 7:33am
Originally posted by Nazarene

Originally posted by Natassia

Unfortunately, because the Quran contradicts the Bible, the Bible must be "corrupt."

 
(I won't get into the logical fallacies required to justify that belief.)
salaams
and what of Paul?   Jesus reafirms the law and states in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=18&version=31&context=verse - Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
 
but Paul nullifies the law when he states
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=11&version=31&context=verse - Galatians 3:11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
also
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=3&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - Galatians 3:23
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
 
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=28&version=31&context=verse - Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=55&chapter=2&verse=16&version=31&context=verse - Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

So how do you think jesus {p} would think of paul making the law dissapear?

leland

 

Have you ever try to understand several side of a shape? Do u know, each side hiding the other, because this is one thing, and you will not find the truth if you don’t try for understanding all of sides.

All of prophets are agree to each other, people are fighting to each other for them!

Law is not against the love, and love is not disappearing the law. They are one program in righteousness, for salvation. Do you need that?



Posted By: Moses
Date Posted: 03 September 2009 at 7:54am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

 
 Only 1 verse of Quran is enough to prove that Bible is corrupt.
 
 004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
 Here is another explicit verse speaking of Bible corruption, the Quran states that if anyone believes that Jesus died and was crucified they then follow nothing but CONJECTURE which is corruption. Which book today tells us that Jesus died and was crucified? The Bible, so hence the Quran here does call the Bible corrupt. So it can't get anymore clear than that.

See the previous verses to know "We" refers to somebody, Bible did not say "they killed Jesus”, Bible explain that this was a prepared plan that has to be done, a plan from the first, for salvation. Not a simple Murderer story, as they believed that "they" killed him. But at present, you are not looking in these verses as a love message, you plan to use of them as tool for your own religious! Don`t you?!



Posted By: Moses
Date Posted: 03 September 2009 at 8:13am
Originally posted by Shibboleth

 .......... Let us repeat a verse from the Qur’an. But now we will discuss it from a different angle. “After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah’s revelations.”—Sura 5, Al-Ma’ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.  (The Qur'an also accepts Jesus as the son of God,just as it does Adam)

 ..................

For a believer to Quran, these are clear, and they do not argue about these verses because they can not stand against the words of God. Each of them knows well that for response to your claim needs to explain the words of God in human way, but they afraid of anger of God. Then they will attack to u, by other tools. But obviously all of their efforts are against the Quran! And this is truly “corruption”! Not in word of God, but in mind of human! but still God love them and let them to continue.....

If not...., then from now , they will explain to you the Tafsir and explanation of these verses of Quran, not more!! because most of them are truly believers in God.


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 03 September 2009 at 7:57pm
Salams,Moses and welcome to the forum I see that you already made yourself at home.You say and it seems that you are like a mediator for now:Then they will attack to u, by other tools. But obviously all of their efforts are against the Quran!Well most of us don't feel that we have to defend the truth wich we believe the Qur'an is.Some Christians come here on an Islamic Forum with fake intentions on learning and like all falsehoods they are exposed.


Posted By: Moses
Date Posted: 04 September 2009 at 9:10am
Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah

Salams,Moses and welcome to the forum I see that you already made yourself at home.You say and it seems that you are like a mediator for now:Then they will attack to u, by other tools. But obviously all of their efforts are against the Quran!Well most of us don't feel that we have to defend the truth wich we believe the Qur'an is.Some Christians come here on an Islamic Forum with fake intentions on learning and like all falsehoods they are exposed.
thanks, yes I made myself at home!
you do not feel that have to defend the truth, because you do not believe that you know the truth.
believers defends the truth of God, not thoes things that concerned to human thoughts. you have accepted human thoughts and follow them, because do not believe in the power of God , for talking with your heart directly. you can not come to the verses of Quran and explain them, because you feel alone without your leaders, if i made a mistake , made my mind clear please by explanation about the words of Quran at the first post, that u believe them.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 September 2009 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Moses

Originally posted by Shibboleth

 .......... Let us repeat a verse from the Qur’an. But now we will discuss it from a different angle. “After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah’s revelations.”—Sura 5, Al-Ma’ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.  (The Qur'an also accepts Jesus as the son of God,just as it does Adam)

 ..................

For a believer to Quran, these are clear, and they do not argue about these verses because they can not stand against the words of God. Each of them knows well that for response to your claim needs to explain the words of God in human way, but they afraid of anger of God. Then they will attack to u, by other tools. But obviously all of their efforts are against the Quran! And this is truly “corruption”! Not in word of God, but in mind of human! but still God love them and let them to continue.....

If not...., then from now , they will explain to you the Tafsir and explanation of these verses of Quran, not more!! because most of them are truly believers in God.
 
 
 
Dear Moses,
Shibbo has misquoted the verse and you followed his trap, sorry, but let me correct you and him, and guide you to the truth.
Please read, here is the correct translation:
5:46 (Y. Ali) And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah."
 
The key word is وَمُصَدِّقًا  which is best tarnslated as confirmation.
 
Take care,
Hasan 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 September 2009 at 7:24pm

"Have you ever try to understand several side of a shape? Do u know, each side hiding the other, because this is one thing, and you will not find the truth if you don’t try for understanding all of sides.

All of prophets are agree to each other, people are fighting to each other for them!

Law is not against the love, and love is not disappearing the law. They are one program in righteousness, for salvation. Do you need that?"

 
Let's try to get an understanding of all sides just by using the Bible.
 
Biblically God states that His covenants: the Law, are perpetual and everlasting. Jesus reaffirms this by following the Law himself, telling his disciples to follow the Law, and stating he did not come to change the Law. After Jesus dies, Paul abrogates the Law, making it null and void.
 
Even if, as some Christians say: Jesus fufilled the Law. In what way did he fulfil the Law? By his own words: "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
 
Everything was "not accomplished" because he did not fulfil all of the prophesies. That is why Christians claim there will be a "second coming". So that Jesus can accomplish everything that was left undone.
 
Jesus then goes on to say:
 
Matthew 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
Isn't this EXACTLY what Paul did? Taught men to break, actually ignore, the Law.

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?



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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 06 September 2009 at 2:03pm

PROOF THAT THE BIBLE BEEN ACCURATELY PRESEVED.

 

By studying the thousands of manuscripts extant in our time and comparing them with one another, we can see that the original text has been accurately passed down to us. A report published in 1971 shows that there are possibly 6,000 handwritten copies containing all or part of the Hebrew Scriptures; the oldest dates back to the third century B.C.E. Of the Christian Greek Scriptures, there are some 5,000 in Greek, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

 

More than 13,000 manuscripts of the Greek Scriptures are said to be available today. A study of them shows that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has also been preserved accurately, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

 

For example, the Institute for New Testament Textual Studies in Germany has made about 95 percent of its approximately 5,300 handwritten copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures available for scientific study, either on microfilm or in photographs. A comparison of them shows just how exact the transmission of the Bible text down to our day has been. The interval of time between the original writing of the Christian Greek Scriptures and the writing of the oldest extant papyrus manuscripts is very short, not more than 25 years.

What the Qur’ān Says About the Holy Scriptures

The Qur’ān calls the Torah and the Injīl “the Book of Enlightenment.” (Āl ‘Imrān [3]:184; Fāṭir [35]:25) Scores of Qur’ānic verses state that these books are from God. (Al-Baqarah [2]:89; Al-An‘ām [6]:92) Concerning both the Torah and Injīl, we read: “Wherein is guidance and a light.” (Al-Mā’idah [5]:44, 46, MMP) Furthermore, Al-Mā’idah [5]:46 says about the Torah: “Therein is the (plain) command of God.” Many of the great interpreters (such as Al-Jalālayn, Al-Fakhr Al-Rāzī, Al-Ṭabarī, and Al-Bayḍāwī) acknowledge that according to the Qur’ān, the Torah is called “the Book of God” (Āl ‘Imrān [3]:23) and “the Book which helps to make things clear.” (Al-Ṣāffāt [37]:117) Nevertheless, some still believe that the present-day Torah and Injīl have been corrupted and cannot be trusted. But if this were true, when did this falsification take place?

From a Qur’ānic viewpoint, no corruption could possibly have occurred BEFORE writing of the Qur’ān because many Qur’ānic verses call for faith in the Torah and the Injīl.

(For example, see Al-Baqarah [2]:136; Āl ‘Imrān [3]:84; Al-Nisā’ [4]:136.) The Qur’ān also recommends seeking out those versed in the Torah and the Injīl, saying: “If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.” (Al-Naḥl [16]:43; Al-Anbiyā’ [21]:7) Would it do so if these texts had been corrupted? Furthermore, many Qur’ānic verses call out to “People of the Book” (the Torah and the Injīl) to turn back to their books. (For instance, see Al-Mā’idah [5]:50, 71.) Surely, an invitation would not be given to turn back to corrupted books!

Likewise, no corruption could possibly have occurred AFTER the writing of the Qur’ān, since a comparison of our modern-day Holy Scriptures with manuscripts of the Torah and the Injīl written FOUR or FIVE centuries before the writing of the Qur’ān shows that there have been no changes, or corruption.

These manuscripts are available in public libraries and museums.

If you have a copy of the Bible, you are far from alone. In whole or in part, the Bible has been published in more than 2,300 languages and thus is available to more than 90 percent of the world’s population. On the average, more than a million Bibles are distributed each week! Billions of copies of either the whole Bible or part of it have been produced. Surely, there is no other book like the Bible.

DO WE HAVE THE BIBLE IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM TODAY? UNEQUIVOCALLY, YES!

IS THERE AN “ORIGINAL BOOK” THAT SHOWS THE CORRUPTION OF GOD’S HOLY WRITINGS? EMPHATICALLY NO!

EVEN THE QUR’AN TESTIFIES TO THAT FACT!



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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Moses
Date Posted: 07 September 2009 at 6:27am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Moses

Originally posted by Shibboleth

 .......... Let us repeat a verse from the Qur’an. But now we will discuss it from a different angle. “After those prophets We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah already revealed, and gave him the Gospel, in which there is guidance and light, corroborating that which was revealed before it in the Torah, a guide and an admonition to the righteous. Therefore let the followers of the Gospel judge in accordance with what Allah has revealed therein. Evil-doers are those that do not base their judgements on Allah’s revelations.”—Sura 5, Al-Ma’ida [The Table], verses 46, 47.  (The Qur'an also accepts Jesus as the son of God,just as it does Adam)

 ..................

For a believer to Quran, these are clear, and they do not argue about these verses because they can not stand against the words of God. Each of them knows well that for response to your claim needs to explain the words of God in human way, but they afraid of anger of God. Then they will attack to u, by other tools. But obviously all of their efforts are against the Quran! And this is truly “corruption”! Not in word of God, but in mind of human! but still God love them and let them to continue.....

If not...., then from now , they will explain to you the Tafsir and explanation of these verses of Quran, not more!! because most of them are truly believers in God.
 
 
 
Dear Moses,
Shibbo has misquoted the verse and you followed his trap, sorry, but let me correct you and him, and guide you to the truth.
Please read, here is the correct translation:
5:46 (Y. Ali) And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah."
 
The key word is وَمُصَدِّقًا  which is best tarnslated as confirmation.
 
Take care,
Hasan 
Thanks , you are kind to me. But not to the words of Quran! if we can change the words only by our thoughts, what will happend for Quran after awhile?!!
you can see the word of "Altthorah" in the same verse 5-46near the end of that,
 وَقَفَّيۡنَا عَلَىٰٓ ءَاثَـٰرِهِم بِعِيسَى ٱبۡنِ مَرۡيَمَ مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ‌ۖ وَءَاتَيۡنَـٰهُ ٱلۡإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدً۬ى وَنُورٌ۬ وَمُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ وَهُدً۬ى وَمَوۡعِظَةً۬ لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ
 
and what about this one:(46-11)
 وَمِن قَبۡلِهِۦ كِتَـٰبُ مُوسَىٰٓ إِمَامً۬ا وَرَحۡمَةً۬‌ۚ وَهَـٰذَا كِتَـٰبٌ۬ مُّصَدِّقٌ۬ لِّسَانًا عَرَبِيًّ۬ا لِّيُنذِرَ ٱلَّذِينَ ظَلَمُواْ وَبُشۡرَىٰ لِلۡمُحۡسِنِينَ
isn`t it about "Althorah" again?!then what is the book of Moses?!
and what about this one:(7-144&145)
قَالَ يَـٰمُوسَىٰٓ إِنِّى ٱصۡطَفَيۡتُكَ عَلَى ٱلنَّاسِ بِرِسَـٰلَـٰتِى وَبِكَلَـٰمِى فَخُذۡ مَآ ءَاتَيۡتُكَ وَكُن مِّنَ ٱلشَّـٰكِرِينَ (١٤٤) وَڪَتَبۡنَا لَهُ ۥ فِى ٱلۡأَلۡوَاحِ مِن ڪُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ مَّوۡعِظَةً۬ وَتَفۡصِيلاً۬ لِّكُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ فَخُذۡهَا بِقُوَّةٍ۬ وَأۡمُرۡ قَوۡمَكَ يَأۡخُذُواْ بِأَحۡسَنِہَا‌ۚ سَأُوْرِيكُمۡ دَارَ ٱلۡفَـٰسِقِينَ
and says: the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then: Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying): Take the better therein ....
and this one:
أَفَمَن كَانَ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ۬ مِّن رَّبِّهِۦ وَيَتۡلُوهُ شَاهِدٌ۬ مِّنۡهُ وَمِن قَبۡلِهِۦ كِتَـٰبُ مُوسَىٰٓ إِمَامً۬ا وَرَحۡمَةً‌ۚ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِهِۦ‌ۚ وَمَن يَكۡفُرۡ بِهِۦ مِنَ ٱلۡأَحۡزَابِ فَٱلنَّارُ مَوۡعِدُهُ ۥ‌ۚ فَلَا تَكُ فِى مِرۡيَةٍ۬ مِّنۡهُ‌ۚ إِنَّهُ ٱلۡحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَڪۡثَرَ ٱلنَّاسِ لَا يُؤۡمِنُونَ
means:Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place.
what is she talking about? you know she is talking about the book of Moses and in that time, there is in the Jweish people hands. that they covered some of that and talked about some. and what are you doing today? do you obey and Hold it fast and command your people take that for themselves? or are you covering the meaning of these verses of Quran by replacement the words?! then, judge yourself please, before coming to the end of this world story! 


Posted By: Moses
Date Posted: 07 September 2009 at 7:21am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

"Have you ever try to understand several side of a shape? Do u know, each side hiding the other, because this is one thing, and you will not find the truth if you don’t try for understanding all of sides.

All of prophets are agree to each other, people are fighting to each other for them!

Law is not against the love, and love is not disappearing the law. They are one program in righteousness, for salvation. Do you need that?"

 
Let's try to get an understanding of all sides just by using the Bible.
 
Biblically God states that His covenants: the Law, are perpetual and everlasting. Jesus reaffirms this by following the Law himself, telling his disciples to follow the Law, and stating he did not come to change the Law. After Jesus dies, Paul abrogates the Law, making it null and void.
 
Even if, as some Christians say: Jesus fufilled the Law. In what way did he fulfil the Law? By his own words: "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
 
Everything was "not accomplished" because he did not fulfil all of the prophesies. That is why Christians claim there will be a "second coming". So that Jesus can accomplish everything that was left undone.
 
Jesus then goes on to say:
 
Matthew 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 
Isn't this EXACTLY what Paul did? Taught men to break, actually ignore, the Law.

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?

Quran says:إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَىٰٓ إِنِّى مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ ڪَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّبَعُوكَ فَوۡقَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوٓاْ إِلَىٰ يَوۡمِ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ‌ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَىَّ مَرۡجِعُڪُمۡ فَأَحۡڪُمُ بَيۡنَكُمۡ فِيمَا كُنتُمۡ فِيهِ تَخۡتَلِفُونَ
means : realy I made you dead and raise you up toward me
then its prefered to not say Jesus dies,  because God raised him up toward himself and he is alive.
Neither Paul nor Jesus did ignore the law. just viceversa! They are coming to the most important and the second law, which in religious comunities had been forgotten:love your neighbor as well as yourself.....and they explain us who is the "neighbor", everybody who needs you and your purse and your help.
If somebody can do it , then he will not kill the other people, he will not overrun on the others and he will not do any bad things in a society. then you say we should ask him to not overrun on the other people or ask him to not kill the others?!!
and they explain us the first law: love your God , with all of your heart.... and who can love his God with all of his heart and make sins and bad jobs in presence of him?!! are you about asking him to not sin in presence of God?!!
laws of God teach us which is bad and which is good, but fullfieling of the law means you are doing the first which is the highest and the most expanded law in the human life, after that , you are in a situation that Quran says:(4-125)
وَمَنۡ أَحۡسَنُ دِينً۬ا مِّمَّنۡ أَسۡلَمَ وَجۡهَهُ ۥ لِلَّهِ وَهُوَ مُحۡسِنٌ۬ وَٱتَّبَعَ مِلَّةَ إِبۡرَٲهِيمَ حَنِيفً۬ا‌ۗ وَٱتَّخَذَ ٱللَّهُ إِبۡرَٲهِيمَ خَلِيلاً۬ (١٢٥)
Who is better in religion than he who surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good (to men) and followeth the tradition of Abraham, the upright? Allah (Himself) chose Abraham for friend. (125)
was Abraham doer of the law?! which law in his time?!! no he loved God and then he did the best for him.
 as you see , such teaching is not from human, but from the designer of laws.
Now please think in yourself as well: does real Christians love each other and the other people or not? (don`t  think about bad people who hanging a cross on and show you they are real Christian but do the worst things!)
If you find them kind and avoided from sins, accept their deeds and believe that Paul and Jesus did not ask them to do more.


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 07 September 2009 at 9:46pm

Yall have to be kidding me, right? That’s the best you can do? There is nothing that any one of you showed that the Bible is corrupt. When those versus are read in English, Hebrew or Arabic the meaning is still basically the same unless of course you read them in Arabic and write them in English as you did. You read it in whatever tongue you speak. Realize a major factor that has helped the Bible to become mankind’s best-known book is its availability in many languages. The Bible must speak in the language of the people in order to speak to their hearts. As you can readily see the message is still the same, with the same thought. See for yourself http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/doc_bible.htm - http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/doc_bible.htm or the one I use http://www.waterlive.org/ - http://www.waterlive.org/

 

Job 12:6 The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that provoke God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth abundantly.

 

خِيَامُ الْمُخَرِّبِينَ مُسْتَرِيحَةٌ،

وَالَّذِينَ يُغِيظُونَ اللهَ مُطْمَئِنُّونَ،

الَّذِينَ يَأْتُونَ بِإِلهِهِمْ فِي يَدِهِمْ!

 

Job 31:10 Then let my wife grind unto another, and let others bow down upon her.

 

فَلْتَطْحَنِ امْرَأَتِي لآخَرَ، وَلْيَنْحَنِ

عَلَيْهَا آخَرُونَ.

 

**Psalms 83:18** That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

 

وَيَعْلَمُوا أَنَّكَ اسْمُكَ يَهْوَهُ

وَحْدَكَ، الْعَلِيُّ عَلَى كُلِّ الأَرْضِ.

 

Do you read Hebrew or Greek? If not, you cannot read the early handwritten copies of the Bible, some of which are still in existence. Therefore, for you to read the Bible, someone had to put the words into a language you know, like Arabic for instance. This translating from one language to another has made it possible for more persons to read God’s Word. For example, about 300 years before Jesus lived on earth, Greek became the language most people began to speak. So the Hebrew Scriptures were put into Greek, beginning in 280 B.C.E. This early translation was called the “Septuagint.”

6:34. Walaqad kuththibat rusulun min qablika fasabaroo AAala ma kuththiboo waoothoo hatta atahum nasruna wala mubaddila likalimati Allahi walaqad jaaka min naba-i almursaleena

10:64. Lahumu albushra fee alhayati alddunya wafee al-akhirati la tabdeela likalimati Allahi thalika huwa alfawzu alAAatheemu

 

18:27. Waotlu ma oohiya ilayka min kitabi rabbika la mubaddila likalimatihi walan tajida min doonihi multahadan

 

Inna nahnu nazzalna alththikra wa-inna lahu lahafithoona



-------------
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 07 September 2009 at 10:24pm


 

BTW, Mo, Jesus fulfilled the law by dying on the STAKE and being resurrected. If you knew anything about the law you would have known it was in preparation of Jesus, the “lamb of God”

Hebrews 10:1-5 For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would the [sacrifices] not have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins anymore? 3 To the contrary, by these sacrifices there is a reminding of sins from year to year, 4 for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away.

5 Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.

Again your incorrect Mo, Paul does not abrogate or cancel (Unlike the Quran, you will not find abrogating in God’s Holy Bible) but the Law was fulfilled, Judo-Christians were now no longer under the law covenant. It seems that you have been misinformed .
 

“”Isn't this EXACTLY what Paul did? Taught men to break, actually ignore, the Law.

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?””

You are waaaaay of course again Mo, after Jesus died a sacrificial death the law was fulfilled, completed. Paul was a Jew by birth but followed and practiced Christianity like Jesus 12 apostles and his many followers.   



-------------
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 7:16am

"Again your incorrect Mo, Paul does not abrogate or cancel (Unlike the Quran, you will not find abrogating in God’s Holy Bible) but the Law was fulfilled, Judo-Christians were now no longer under the law covenant. It seems that you have been misinformed .
 

“”Isn't this EXACTLY what Paul did? Taught men to break, actually ignore, the Law.

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?””

You are waaaaay of course again Mo, after Jesus died a sacrificial death the law was fulfilled, completed. Paul was a Jew by birth but followed and practiced Christianity like Jesus 12 apostles and his many followers."

Actually I wrote this. At the time of Jesus there was no such thing as Judeo-Christian. There were no Christians. Jesus was not a Christian, he was a Jew.
 
I would ask that you simply correct me and put me back on course by posting the verses of the Bible where JESUS told his followers to abandon the Law. Then post the verses where JESUS stated that he was God. Then post the verses where GOD states He is a Triune or anything about the Trinity, period.   This should be very easy.



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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 7:23am

**Psalms 83:18** That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

For a starter, Jehovah is NOT the correct name of God in the Tanakh. That would appear to be a glaring mistake.

-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 7:29am

"BTW, Mo, Jesus fulfilled the law by dying on the STAKE and being resurrected. If you knew anything about the law you would have known it was in preparation of Jesus, the “lamb of God”

Once again, point out the verses in the Old Testament that prophesy that God would send himself to earth in human form to be a blood sacrifice so that his perpetual covenants would no longer matter. And the verses that state that God gave the Laws to Moses ONLY to prepare for the coming of Jesus. 



-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 7:43am

Hebrews 10:1-5 For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect. 2 Otherwise, would the [sacrifices] not have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins anymore? 3 To the contrary, by these sacrifices there is a reminding of sins from year to year, 4 for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away.

5 Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me.

I don't think you can use Hebrews, probably written by Paul, to make the argument that Jesus fulfills the Law therefore God's covenants are abrogated. The whole point of the Pauline doctrine was to get rid of the Law. To Gentile-ize the new religion.
 
Surely, if as you say, the Law was merely a preparation for Jesus to die on the stake, then you must have scriptures from the Old Testament to prove your point.


-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Meditations
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 8:02am
Originally posted by Shibboleth


. A report published in 1971 shows that there are possibly 6,000 handwritten copies containing all or part of the Hebrew Scriptures;


Report by who ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth


 the oldest dates back to the third century B.C.E. Of the Christian Greek Scriptures, there are some 5,000 in Greek, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

The oldest is over 200 years from Jesus times and you consider this a proof

For us muslims , this no where near good enough to be accepted as authenticate source

Muslims scholars rejects hadiths that have far better authenticity than 200 years gap

Originally posted by Shibboleth


More than 13,000 manuscripts of the Greek Scriptures are said to be available today. A study of them shows that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has also been preserved accurately, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

Which language did Jesus speak ? and Which language were the scriptures sent with ?


Are you familiar with the greek proverb that says

" IF YOU WANT TO BE A LIAR , BE A TRANSLATOR "

Originally posted by Shibboleth


For example, the Institute for New Testament Textual Studies in Germany has made about 95 percent of its approximately 5,300 handwritten copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures available for scientific study, either on microfilm or in photographs. A comparison of them shows just how exact the transmission of the Bible text down to our day has been. The interval of time between the original writing of the Christian Greek Scriptures and the writing of the oldest extant papyrus manuscripts is very short, not more than 25 years.

Again way far from good enough for authenticity of a text with that importance

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Nevertheless, some still believe that the present-day Torah and Injīl have been corrupted and cannot be trusted. But if this were true, when did this falsification take place?


Throughout the years this been happening , before Quran was revealed , after it was revealed, and in our moderns times

Did you ever wonder why there're 'NEW EDITIONS" of the bible, while there're none of the Qur'an ?


Originally posted by Shibboleth

From a Qur’ānic viewpoint, no corruption could possibly have occurred BEFORE writing of the Qur’ān because many Qur’ānic verses call for faith in the Torah and the Injīl.

This is a very false statement, Qur'an clearly states in several occasions that Torah and Injil have been corrupted , as was pointed to you in another post

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) stated this , if you believe in Qur'an's authenticity , then you believe What He said

If you don't believe in Qur'an authenticity's, then the Qur'anic viewpoint is of no importance to you

So which one is it?

(For example, see Al-Baqarah [2]:136; Āl ‘Imrān [3]:84; Al-Nisā’ [4]:136.) The Qur’ān also recommends seeking out those versed in the Torah and the Injīl, saying: “If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.” (Al-Naḥl [16]:43; Al-Anbiyā’ [21]:7) Would it do so if these texts had been corrupted? Furthermore, many Qur’ānic verses call out to “People of the Book” (the Torah and the Injīl) to turn back to their books. (For instance, see Al-Mā’idah [5]:50, 71.) Surely, an invitation would not be given to turn back to corrupted books!

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Likewise, no corruption could possibly have occurred AFTER the writing of the Qur’ān, since a comparison of our modern-day Holy Scriptures with manuscripts of the Torah and the Injīl written FOUR or FIVE centuries before the writing of the Qur’ān shows that there have been no changes, or corruption.

I suggest you revise this statement, a small revision of the current version of the bible and a revision that's only 200-300 years old , would show you clearly the differences

Originally posted by Shibboleth

These manuscripts are available in public libraries and museums.

Which public libraries , and which museums ?

do you have any document that dates back to the times of Jesus ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth

If you have a copy of the Bible, you are far from alone. In whole or in part, the Bible has been published in more than 2,300 languages and thus is available to more than 90 percent of the world’s population. On the average, more than a million Bibles are distributed each week! Billions of copies of either the whole Bible or part of it have been produced. Surely, there is no other book like the Bible.

There could be millions and millions copies printed , if you go to any hotel room in the USA there's a copy of the bible

But who reads it, how many times ?

who reads the bible at least 5 times a day like muslims read the Quran ?

Who memorizes the bible by heart like Muslims do ? 

Qur'an is the only book that's being memorized by heart by millions of people around the world

Originally posted by Shibboleth

DO WE HAVE THE BIBLE IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM TODAY? UNEQUIVOCALLY, YES!

IS THERE AN “ORIGINAL BOOK” THAT SHOWS THE CORRUPTION OF GOD’S HOLY WRITINGS? EMPHATICALLY NO!

All the different copies of the bible and the differences between it shows the corruption

Originally posted by Shibboleth

EVEN THE QUR’AN TESTIFIES TO THAT FACT!

Where does the Qur'an say that the bible/OT is not corrupted ? this is a very false statement

Regards




Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 9:00am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Once again, point out the verses in the Old Testament that prophesy that God would send himself to earth in human form to be a blood sacrifice so that his perpetual covenants would no longer matter. And the verses that state that God gave the Laws to Moses ONLY to prepare for the coming of Jesus. </SPAN>

I'm waiting also to see this


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 1:10pm

Originally posted by Shibboleth

PROOF THAT THE BIBLE BEEN ACCURATELY PRESEVED.

 

By studying the thousands of manuscripts extant in our time and comparing them with one another, we can see that the original text has been accurately passed down to us. A report published in 1971 shows that there are possibly 6,000 handwritten copies containing all or part of the Hebrew Scriptures; the oldest dates back to the third century B.C.E. Of the Christian Greek Scriptures, there are some 5,000 in Greek, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

 

More than 13,000 manuscripts of the Greek Scriptures are said to be available today. A study of them shows that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has also been preserved accurately, the oldest dating back to the beginning of the second century C.E.

 

For example, the Institute for New Testament Textual Studies in Germany has made about 95 percent of its approximately 5,300 handwritten copies of the Christian Greek Scriptures available for scientific study, either on microfilm or in photographs. A comparison of them shows just how exact the transmission of the Bible text down to our day has been. The interval of time between the original writing of the Christian Greek Scriptures and the writing of the oldest extant papyrus manuscripts is very short, not more than 25 years.

 Here are responses by muslims:
 
  http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/who_authored_the_new_testament_ - Who Authored the New Testament By brother Bassam Zawadi
 
  http://islamlife.com/religion2/news/76-hot-topic/105-is-the-bible-reliable - Is the Bible Reliable? By brother Jalal Abualrub
 
  http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/ - Examining The Bible By brother Dr. M S M Saifullah and his team
 
  http://unveiling-christianity.com/2009/08/23/whose-canon-is-divinely-inspired/ - Whose canon is divinely inspired?  By brother Ibn Anwar
 
  http://unveiling-christianity.com/2009/07/15/historical-inaccuracy-of-luke/ - Historical Inaccuracy of Luke  By brother Ibn Anwar
 
  http://unveiling-christianity.com/2009/07/13/when-did-the-bible-come-to-be/ - When did the Bible come to be?  By brother Ibn Anwar
 
  http://answering-christianity.com/ac6.htm#links - The Bible By brother Osama Abdullah 
 
 

Originally posted by Shibboleth

What the Qur’ān Says About the Holy Scriptures

The Qur’ān calls the Torah and the Injīl “the Book of Enlightenment.” (Āl ‘Imrān [3]:184; Fāṭir [35]:25) Scores of Qur’ānic verses state that these books are from God. (Al-Baqarah [2]:89; Al-An‘ām [6]:92) Concerning both the Torah and Injīl, we read: “Wherein is guidance and a light.” (Al-Mā’idah [5]:44, 46, MMP) Furthermore, Al-Mā’idah [5]:46 says about the Torah: “Therein is the (plain) command of God.” Many of the great interpreters (such as Al-Jalālayn, Al-Fakhr Al-Rāzī, Al-Ṭabarī, and Al-Bayḍāwī) acknowledge that according to the Qur’ān, the Torah is called “the Book of God” (Āl ‘Imrān [3]:23) and “the Book which helps to make things clear.” (Al-Ṣāffāt [37]:117) Nevertheless, some still believe that the present-day Torah and Injīl have been corrupted and cannot be trusted. But if this were true, when did this falsification take place?

From a Qur’ānic viewpoint, no corruption could possibly have occurred BEFORE writing of the Qur’ān because many Qur’ānic verses call for faith in the Torah and the Injīl.

(For example, see Al-Baqarah [2]:136; Āl ‘Imrān [3]:84; Al-Nisā’ [4]:136.) The Qur’ān also recommends seeking out those versed in the Torah and the Injīl, saying: “If ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.” (Al-Naḥl [16]:43; Al-Anbiyā’ [21]:7) Would it do so if these texts had been corrupted? Furthermore, many Qur’ānic verses call out to “People of the Book” (the Torah and the Injīl) to turn back to their books. (For instance, see Al-Mā’idah [5]:50, 71.) Surely, an invitation would not be given to turn back to corrupted books!

Likewise, no corruption could possibly have occurred AFTER the writing of the Qur’ān, since a comparison of our modern-day Holy Scriptures with manuscripts of the Torah and the Injīl written FOUR or FIVE centuries before the writing of the Qur’ān shows that there have been no changes, or corruption.

  http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/does_islam_endorse_the_bible__ - Does Islam Endorse The Bible?  By brother Bassam Zawadi
 
  http://muslim-responses.com/the_Quran_on_the_Bible/the_Quran_on_the_Bible_ - Does the Quran confirm the Bible in it's whole? By Sami Zaatari
 
 The authenticity of the Bible according to the Quran,Corrupt or Uncorrupt:By brother Sami Zaatari
 
  http://muslim-responses.com/The_Quran_on_the_Bible1/The_Quran_on_the_Bible1_ - Part 1A  
 
  http://muslim-responses.com/Part_1B/Part_1B_ - Part 2B
 
  http://muslim-responses.com/Part_1C/Part_1C_ - Part 3C
 
Originally posted by Shibboleth

These manuscripts are available in public libraries and museums.

If you have a copy of the Bible, you are far from alone. In whole or in part, the Bible has been published in more than 2,300 languages and thus is available to more than 90 percent of the world’s population. On the average, more than a million Bibles are distributed each week! Billions of copies of either the whole Bible or part of it have been produced. Surely, there is no other book like the Bible.

DO WE HAVE THE BIBLE IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM TODAY? UNEQUIVOCALLY, YES!

IS THERE AN “ORIGINAL BOOK” THAT SHOWS THE CORRUPTION OF GOD’S HOLY WRITINGS? EMPHATICALLY NO!

EVEN THE QUR’AN TESTIFIES TO THAT FACT!

  http://www.islamtomorrow.com/articles/Bible_vs_Quran.asp - Bible Compared to Quran By brother Yusuf Esstes and & Dr.Gary Miller


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 September 2009 at 3:58pm
Shibbo and Moses,
its a fact shown on this forum that the Bible contradicts on the three main points that are its backbone.
God, Jesus, and Salvation. It contradicts on all three of those, period.
So any argument of its authenticity is of no value. That's just too bad for you.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Moses
Date Posted: 09 September 2009 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

"Again your incorrect Mo, Paul does not abrogate or cancel (Unlike the Quran, you will not find abrogating in God’s Holy Bible) but the Law was fulfilled, Judo-Christians were now no longer under the law covenant. It seems that you have been misinformed .
 

“”Isn't this EXACTLY what Paul did? Taught men to break, actually ignore, the Law.

Ask yourself, who do you believe? God? Jesus? Or Paul?””

You are waaaaay of course again Mo, after Jesus died a sacrificial death the law was fulfilled, completed. Paul was a Jew by birth but followed and practiced Christianity like Jesus 12 apostles and his many followers."

Actually I wrote this. At the time of Jesus there was no such thing as Judeo-Christian. There were no Christians. Jesus was not a Christian, he was a Jew.
 
I would ask that you simply correct me and put me back on course by posting the verses of the Bible where JESUS told his followers to abandon the Law. Then post the verses where JESUS stated that he was God. Then post the verses where GOD states He is a Triune or anything about the Trinity, period.   This should be very easy.

all over the verses of Bible you can find simple questions of Jesus that asked from jew people to show them that he is the real owner of law.
in Luke 5-33-35 you can find one of this simple evidences:
And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise [the disciples] of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?
And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
 
what is the meaning of these verses?
Is he coming to tell us abandon the law? of course not, but explaining something that we shuld see as well: he is the law himself ! He is not talking as a human or a prophet, but the word of God (KALAMAH O ALLAH)
he is the one who we can see God in him. he is the image of unvisible God. then he is above the law.
 
and also in : Luke 6-6-10:
And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
And the scribes and Pharisees watched him, whether he would heal on the sabbath day; that they might find an accusation against him.
But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.
Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy [it]?
And looking round about upon them all, he said unto the man, Stretch forth thy hand. And he did so: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
 
you know the sabbath , In Moses laws you can read it :(Deutonomy 5-14)
 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
 
and also in Luke 6, 1-5:
And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing [them] in [their] hands.
And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days? And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone? 
 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
 
do you believe?! I don`t think so, the first thinking is : they changed this book !! but when ?? where ?? how??? who can change the eternal words of God?!!! our Almighty God is not powerful enough to save his own words?!!!!
 
ok, u can find him in Quran also:
ٱلَّذِينَ يَتَّبِعُونَ ٱلرَّسُولَ ٱلنَّبِىَّ ٱلۡأُمِّىَّ ٱلَّذِى يَجِدُونَهُ ۥ مَكۡتُوبًا عِندَهُمۡ فِى ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ وَٱلۡإِنجِيلِ يَأۡمُرُهُم بِٱلۡمَعۡرُوفِ وَيَنۡہَٮٰهُمۡ عَنِ ٱلۡمُنڪَرِ وَيُحِلُّ لَهُمُ ٱلطَّيِّبَـٰتِ وَيُحَرِّمُ عَلَيۡهِمُ ٱلۡخَبَـٰٓٮِٕثَ وَيَضَعُ عَنۡهُمۡ إِصۡرَهُمۡ وَٱلۡأَغۡلَـٰلَ ٱلَّتِى كَانَتۡ عَلَيۡهِمۡ‌ۚ فَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ بِهِۦ وَعَزَّرُوهُ وَنَصَرُوهُ وَٱتَّبَعُواْ ٱلنُّورَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أُنزِلَ مَعَهُ ۥۤ‌ۙ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ هُمُ ٱلۡمُفۡلِحُونَ (١٥٧
Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who is innate, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful. (157)
 
here is talking about a messenger, not owner of law, but this is the same that Jesus was doing by his authority of God, means he could change the law, can you believe? NO!!!!! because you do not believe in authority of God on his own laws and on what he created himself! actualy I don`t think that u have questions and wanting to "come on course" , no, you have something restricted in your mind which is too hard to be broken, and you need God to confirm that! but God is such as you can find in his book, nothing ealse.
 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 September 2009 at 4:21pm
Moses,
I just don't see any point in most of your posts,  just emphasis that somehow you are right, yet you don't produce a clear and short proof, rather your own interpretations with quotes that go against it. So, I don't get it. And then you also seem to be on the offensive against Islam in your posts. You seem to ask a question, but answer it on basis of speculation and think you have a point, just read what you wrote above with incomplete reference. You are wasting your time and ours as well. Write less, but to the point and my English is not good, but yours need some imporvement. So first get a better hand at English, then at your knowledge of Islam. And don't come with the attitude that you are a scholar. Come as a student like we all are and just present your solid points, short and clear.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 09 September 2009 at 9:47pm
Husan, Ali and others explain this fact.....................
39: 1
       The revelation of this Book is from Allah the Exalted in Power Full of Wisdom. 2        Verily it is We Who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth: so serve Allah offering Him sincere devotion.

If the
Quran is CONFIRMATION of all Previous Revelations, then these Revelations could not have been corrupted prior to or in the days of Muhammad otherwise this verse - like many others like it - would make no sense and would render it blasphemous.

Agree or Disagree?


Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these "corrupt" manuscripts and save them?

All these links, statements and quotes don't mean a thing without proof of the version that's been "un-corrupted" wouldn't you agree. Now that's PROOF of course if there is one.

BUT LET ME SAVE YOU THE TROUBLE, IT ISN'T, SORRY! IT WOULD HAVE TO BE OLDER THEN DIRT Wink


-------------
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 10 September 2009 at 4:46am
Luke 6:3And Jesus answering them said, Have ye not read so much as this, what David did, when himself was an hungred, and they which were with him;

 4How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and gave also to them that were with him; which it is not lawful to eat but for the priests alone?

 5And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Jesus is comparing himself to David, not God.
 
And then Jesus went onto the mountain and prayed to God:
 
Luke 6: 12And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.
 
Who is the God of God?
 
These are not the verses I asked for.
 


-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 10 September 2009 at 5:03am
Shibboleth:
 
Please answer me from the Bible, which was created first man or beast? Adam or Eve or were they created together?
 
Perhaps you can tell me which is the true uncorrupted account?
 
Genesis 1:24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

 25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

OR
 
Genesis 2: 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

 19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

 20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

 21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.



-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 10 September 2009 at 5:20am

2:78-79
Baset - Hussari - Minshawi
Waminhum ommiyyoona la yaAAlamoona alkitaba illa amaniyya wain hum illa yathunnoona



2:78 (Y. Ali) And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.


Baset - Hussari - Minshawi
Fawaylun lillatheena yaktuboona alkitaba biaydeehim thumma yaqooloona hatha min AAindi Allahi liyashtaroo bihi thamanan qaleelan fawaylun lahum mimma katabat aydeehim wawaylun lahum mimma yaksiboona

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Jews:write the Book with their own hands]


2:79 (Y. Ali) Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.







Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 10 September 2009 at 5:51am
Originally posted by Shibboleth




[COLOR="#000000" face="Georgia"]Husan, Ali and others explain this fact.....................39: 1
So you realize this as a fact.(AlHamduillah)
Baset - Hussari - Minshawi
Tanzeelu alkitabi mina Allahi alAAazeezi alhakeemi

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Allah's attributes:Exalted in Power and Might] [Allah's attributes:Wise] [Qur'an:revelation of]

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim
39:1 (Y. Ali) The revelation of this Book is from Allah, the Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ فَاعْبُدِ اللَّهَ مُخْلِصًا لَّهُ الدِّينَ (39:2)
Baset - Hussari - Minshawi
Inna anzalna ilayka alkitaba bialhaqqi faoAAbudi Allaha mukhlisan lahu alddeena

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Qur'an:revelation of] [Qur'an:the Truth] [Sincerity]


39:2 (Y. Ali) Verily it is We Who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth: so serve Allah, offering Him sincere devotion.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


أَلَا لِلَّهِ الدِّينُ الْخَالِصُ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاء مَا نَعْبُدُهُمْ إِلَّا لِيُقَرِّبُونَا إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفَى إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَهُمْ فِي مَا هُمْ فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ كَاذِبٌ كَفَّارٌ (39:3)
Baset - Hussari - Minshawi
Ala lillahi alddeenu alkhalisu waallatheena ittakhathoo min doonihi awliyaa ma naAAbuduhum illa liyuqarriboona ila Allahi zulfa inna Allaha yahkumu baynahum fee ma hum feehi yakhtalifoona inna Allaha la yahdee man huwa kathibun kaffarun

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Allah:nearness to Him] [Sincerity]


39:3 (Y. Ali) Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


لَوْ أَرَادَ اللَّهُ أَنْ يَتَّخِذَ وَلَدًا لَّاصْطَفَى مِمَّا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء سُبْحَانَهُ هُوَ اللَّهُ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ (39:4)
Baset - Hussari - Minshawi
Law arada Allahu an yattakhitha waladan laistafa mimma yakhluqu ma yashao subhanahu huwa Allahu alwahidu alqahharu

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Allah:Glory be to Him] [Allah:has no son] [Allah's attributes:Irresistible] [Allah's attributes:One God]


39:4 (Y. Ali) Had Allah wished to take to Himself a son, He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things.) He is Allah, the One, the Irresistible.


Simply the Qur'an confirms only I repeat only the truths about the (Ingel and Torah)nothing else. This topic discussion has been going on and on and on and on and even reposted everytime we get new members.(InshAllah) next topic: What truths if any are left in the Bible that the Qur'an confirms? [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="middle" /> P.S To all non-Muslim members when you bring up "the Qur'an confirms the Ingel and Torah" keep in mind that it is confirming the message of said Books(The original True Message)that the Prophets(As) of Allah SWT was sent to deliver.


Posted By: Meditations
Date Posted: 10 September 2009 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth


If the
Quran is CONFIRMATION of all Previous Revelations, then these Revelations could not have been corrupted prior to or in the days of Muhammad otherwise this verse - like many others like it - would make no sense and would render it blasphemous.

Agree or Disagree?




Of course disagree

As mentioned in another post
your If / then statement uses a very wrong analogy , which is seems you keep on building upon it's logic

Muslims believe in these Prophets , that they existed , that they were Prophets sent by God , and they were sent with these revelations
This is no sense implies that these revelations were not corrupted

If I trust that someone gave you a letter , this by no means implies that I believe this letter wouldn't have been altered by someone else later on

Originally posted by Shibboleth



Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these "corrupt" manuscripts and save them?



I'm not sure why you say the same things in different posts
but anyways , as mentioned in another post

For various reasons some of it
1: There's no point in doing this , the existence of the various 'versions' of the old and new testament is enough proof
2: Even if these manuscripts existed and were available to them , it would be of no use , since the revelation of the Qur'an becomes the new law for believers


Originally posted by Shibboleth



All these links, statements and quotes don't mean a thing without proof of the version that's been "un-corrupted" wouldn't you agree. Now that's PROOF of course if there is one.

BUT LET ME SAVE YOU THE TROUBLE, IT ISN'T, SORRY! IT WOULD HAVE TO BE OLDER THEN DIRT Wink


It's funny, because the analogy you're trying to use , is against your own theory
The fact that there's not a single version of the bible/old testament that has a direct link to Jesus / Moses ( PBUT )
( you mentioned before that the earliest is at least 200-300 years after the times of Jesus ( PBUH )
The fact that there're so many versions of the bible/old testament that are different , contradicting each other at times

Makes us sure that what we have today, year 2009 is not what was revealed to Jesus or Moses ( PBUT )

Please let us know if you have any further questions

Regards


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 September 2009 at 9:03am
Shibbo is doing what "believer" his previous manifestationLOL use to do. Come up with a plan, then ask a question, misquote translation, and give his own comments, answer and final verdict about it. He does it all by himself and thinks we are with him. I say, get a life Shibbo, you cannot get anywhere but a ditch dodging the truth, and glorifying yourself by posing whatever you come up with is right, yeah right! You are only fooling yourself.
May God guide you to your own benefit.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 11 September 2009 at 11:46am
Originally posted by Shibboleth

Husan, Ali and others explain this fact.....................
39: 1
       The revelation of this Book is from Allah the Exalted in Power Full of Wisdom. 2        Verily it is We Who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth: so serve Allah offering Him sincere devotion.


If the
Quran is CONFIRMATION of all Previous Revelations, then these Revelations could not have been corrupted prior to or in the days of Muhammad otherwise this verse - like many others like it - would make no sense and would render it blasphemous.

Agree or Disagree?

 Your argument is responed here:
 
  http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_regarding_the_qur_an_being_a_confirmation_of_the_bible - Refuting the argument regarding the Quran being a confirmmation of the Bible? By brother Bassam Zawadi
 
Originally posted by Shibboleth

Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these "corrupt" manuscripts and save them?
 
 Who are those "ancient muslims" explain it.


Originally posted by Shibboleth

All these links, statements and quotes don't mean a thing without proof of the version that's been "un-corrupted" wouldn't you agree. Now that's PROOF of course if there is one.


BUT LET ME SAVE YOU THE TROUBLE, IT ISN'T, SORRY! IT WOULD HAVE TO BE OLDER THEN DIRT Wink
 
 Ok.Let set aside muslims even Biblical scholars just like Dr.Bart Ehrman who is New Testament scholar and textual critic admits that Bible is not "pure".
 
 Visit:
 
  http://www.bartdehrman.com/books/misquoting_jesus.htm - Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why By Dr.Bart Ehrman


Posted By: Moses
Date Posted: 12 September 2009 at 8:56am
Originally posted by Meditations

Originally posted by Shibboleth


If the
Quran is CONFIRMATION of all Previous Revelations, then these Revelations could not have been corrupted prior to or in the days of Muhammad otherwise this verse - like many others like it - would make no sense and would render it blasphemous.

Agree or Disagree?




Of course disagree

As mentioned in another post
your If / then statement uses a very wrong analogy , which is seems you keep on building upon it's logic

Muslims believe in these Prophets , that they existed , that they were Prophets sent by God , and they were sent with these revelations
This is no sense implies that these revelations were not corrupted

If I trust that someone gave you a letter , this by no means implies that I believe this letter wouldn't have been altered by someone else later on

Originally posted by Shibboleth



Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these "corrupt" manuscripts and save them?



I'm not sure why you say the same things in different posts
but anyways , as mentioned in another post

For various reasons some of it
1: There's no point in doing this , the existence of the various 'versions' of the old and new testament is enough proof
2: Even if these manuscripts existed and were available to them , it would be of no use , since the revelation of the Qur'an becomes the new law for believers


Originally posted by Shibboleth



All these links, statements and quotes don't mean a thing without proof of the version that's been "un-corrupted" wouldn't you agree. Now that's PROOF of course if there is one.

BUT LET ME SAVE YOU THE TROUBLE, IT ISN'T, SORRY! IT WOULD HAVE TO BE OLDER THEN DIRT Wink


It's funny, because the analogy you're trying to use , is against your own theory
The fact that there's not a single version of the bible/old testament that has a direct link to Jesus / Moses ( PBUT )
( you mentioned before that the earliest is at least 200-300 years after the times of Jesus ( PBUH )
The fact that there're so many versions of the bible/old testament that are different , contradicting each other at times

Makes us sure that what we have today, year 2009 is not what was revealed to Jesus or Moses ( PBUT )

Please let us know if you have any further questions

Regards
 
 please tell me about these verses of Al-Maeda 5-46&7 ( if you are still looking for questions!)
وَقَفَّيۡنَا عَلَىٰٓ ءَاثَـٰرِهِم بِعِيسَى ٱبۡنِ مَرۡيَمَ مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ‌ۖ وَءَاتَيۡنَـٰهُ ٱلۡإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدً۬ى وَنُورٌ۬ وَمُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلتَّوۡرَٮٰةِ وَهُدً۬ى وَمَوۡعِظَةً۬ لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٤٦) وَلۡيَحۡكُمۡ أَهۡلُ ٱلۡإِنجِيلِ بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فِيهِ‌ۚ وَمَن لَّمۡ يَحۡڪُم بِمَآ أَنزَلَ ٱللَّهُ فَأُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ هُمُ ٱلۡفَـٰسِقُونَ (٤٧)
And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We gave (bestowed on) him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). (46) Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
 
Is the Gospel a guidance for you as well?! ( if you are thoese who ward off evil, surely it is!)
but my question is: Do you believe that Jesus write the Gospel himself ?! or you know that other people wrote ? then why Quran telling us about the Gospel that gave to him (to Eisa son of Mary)?!!
may I help u please?! (no worries, this is my answer, u can put yours as well ) :Because the Gosple is written for him and the Bible is exactly the book that was revealed to Jesus as a prophet from the Holy Spirit.
 
Is Quran talking about "a book" that had revealed God`s commands in that? or not?!!!
 
If it was a book in their hands, then you can not deny that the book was from God, and you can not deny that they should command as the Gosple says.
then what are you talking about that Muslims believe this Muslims believes that...!!! God will not ask you to explain what you did with the opinions of Muslims! he will aske u about acting as his own words , isn`t it ?!  
but your leaders tell you that you should not believe in the Bible as the words of God, and you can follow them , but you can not say I believe in these two verses ( at least) any more at the same time!
if realy u can, then let say it to yourself that you believe these 2 verses as the words of God few times and then read the verses again. surely, my Lord will show u the truth himself.
but unfortunately most of you are not seeker of truth, you only wanting to stand up on your believes! and somebody telling you that there is not truth except you!!!


Posted By: Meditations
Date Posted: 12 September 2009 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by Moses

 
 please tell me about these verses of Al-Maeda 5-46&7 ( if you are still looking for questions!)



Dear Moses

Referring to these two versus might have had a point if the Qur'an had these two verses only talking about this topic
Please other verses ( like the verse after these two ), which explains how the Qur'an is to prevail previous scriptures

Al-Maeda 5-4
وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَـكِن لِّيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَا آتَاكُم فَاسْتَبِقُوا الخَيْرَاتِ إِلَى الله مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ {48

Now we have sent down to you ( O Muhammad ) the Scripture ( of the Quran ) with the truth, as a confirmation of all the Scripture that preceded it and as a guardian over it ( to preserve divine guidance ).
So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their whims over what has come to you ( as a clear statement ) of the truth. For each ( Faith community ) among you We have appointed a Divine law and a way of life. And had God so willed, He could have made all of you one ( faith ) community ( without choice ). But He has intended to test you in what He has given you. Thus race ( with one another ) to good works. To God is your return- all of you. He shall then tell you ( the truth ) about all that you have been disputing.

Another verse :
Surat Al Fat-h ( 48 ) verse : 28

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَكَفَى بِاللَّهِ شَهِيدًا {28}
He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, so that He may cause it to prevail ( on it's own merits ) over every religion. And sufficient is God as a Witness ( to this )

That explained, what would you like us to tell you about these two verses ( and other verses talking about this topic ?

Originally posted by Moses


Is the Gospel a guidance for you as well?! ( if you are thoese who ward off evil, surely it is!)
 
What was revealed to Prophets Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Yaqub, the Prophets of the tribes of Israel, Moses, David, Jesus , and all Prophets sent from God
( peace upon all of them ) is guidance
Qur'an was sent as the final guidance, to prevail what was sent with previous Prophets
It doesn't negate that these revelations had guidance, it states it had

Originally posted by Moses


but my question is: Do you believe that Jesus write the Gospel himself ?! or you know that other people wrote ? then why Quran telling us about the Gospel that gave to him (to Eisa son of Mary)?!!


I believe the Gospel ( Al inJil ) was revealed to Jesus, whether he wrote Himself or dictate to to someone to write is of no difference to me, since the source is the same, which is God

Originally posted by Moses


may I help u please?! (no worries, this is my answer, u can put yours as well ) :Because the Gosple is written for him


Written for him by who ?

Originally posted by Moses


and the Bible is exactly the book that was revealed to Jesus as a prophet from the Holy Spirit.


When you say the 'bible' which book are you referring to ? What was revelead, or the modern bible available now ? Which version / copy ?

What are the direct links between what we have now and what was revealed ? to confirms that what we have now is what was revealed ?

Originally posted by Moses


revealed to Jesus as a prophet from the Holy Spirit.

I find what you say quite interesting
So you believe Jesus is a Prophet , He's not a God, or Son of God ?

Originally posted by Moses


Is Quran talking about "a book" that had revealed God`s commands in that? or not?!!!


If it was a book in their hands, then you can not deny that the book was from God, and you can not deny that they should command as the Gosple says.
 


No muslim denies that Al-Injil ( the Gospel ) that was revealed to Jesus is from God
What muslims deny is that what you have in your hands IS what was revealed

The argument between us and you is whether what you have now is what was revealed or not , hence the topic of the thread

Originally posted by Moses


then what are you talking about that Muslims believe this Muslims believes that...!!! God will not ask you to explain what you did with the opinions of Muslims! he will aske u about acting as his own words , isn`t it ?!  
 

Ofcourse , and acting on God's words is what we do, look the other verses I mentioned below

My question to you, since you're asking this question, do you believe that Qur'an is God's words then ? 

Originally posted by Moses


but your leaders tell you that you should not believe in the Bible as the words of God, and you can follow them
 



One of the main differences between Islam and current christianity, is that Islam doesn't give divine status to scholars / leaders , and they're up for questioning
While current christianity gives divine / holy status to the pope

So I think christians shouldn't be the one's pointing out about leaders dictating what people believe in


Originally posted by Moses


, but you can not say I believe in these two verses ( at least) any more at the same time!
if realy u can, then let say it to yourself that you believe these 2 verses as the words of God few times and then read the verses again. surely, my Lord will show u the truth himself.


Another false analogy, because I believe in these two verses AND other verses of the Qur'an as well ( and not being selective )
Which all together explain the whole picture, not only a small part
I hope you read all the verses as well, and ask your Creator to guide you to the truth.

Originally posted by Moses


but unfortunately most of you are not seeker of truth, you only wanting to stand up on your believes! and somebody telling you that there is not truth except you!!!


That's unfortunate accusation what makes you think so ?
There's nothing wrong in standing for what you believe in, but this doesn't stop you from seeking the truth

So many people who read this forum are true seekers of truth, whether they are born muslims, conevrts to Islam who came after a journey of searching for truth, or those who are not muslims but seeking truth

you don't know what's in someone's heart, do you ?

Peace upon those who follow the guidance
Best Regards


Posted By: Moses
Date Posted: 13 September 2009 at 5:47am

 

Hi,

Although you are kind, I did not find my answers.

If the Bible was changed or corrupted in the time of Quran, why the Quran talks about that and ask the prophet to tell that for his people,

See:

 
 قَالَ يَـٰمُوسَىٰٓ إِنِّى ٱصۡطَفَيۡتُكَ عَلَى ٱلنَّاسِ بِرِسَـٰلَـٰتِى وَبِكَلَـٰمِى فَخُذۡ مَآ ءَاتَيۡتُكَ وَكُن مِّنَ ٱلشَّـٰكِرِينَ (١٤٤) وَڪَتَبۡنَا لَهُ ۥ فِى ٱلۡأَلۡوَاحِ مِن ڪُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ مَّوۡعِظَةً۬ وَتَفۡصِيلاً۬ لِّكُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ فَخُذۡهَا بِقُوَّةٍ۬ وَأۡمُرۡ قَوۡمَكَ يَأۡخُذُواْ بِأَحۡسَنِہَا‌ۚ سَأُوْرِيكُمۡ دَارَ ٱلۡفَـٰسِقِينَ (١٤٥) سَأَصۡرِفُ عَنۡ ءَايَـٰتِىَ ٱلَّذِينَ يَتَكَبَّرُونَ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ بِغَيۡرِ ٱلۡحَقِّ وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ ڪُلَّ ءَايَةٍ۬ لَّا يُؤۡمِنُواْ بِہَا وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ سَبِيلَ ٱلرُّشۡدِ لَا يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلاً۬ وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ سَبِيلَ ٱلۡغَىِّ يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلاً۬‌ۚ ذَٲلِكَ بِأَنَّہُمۡ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَٔايَـٰتِنَا وَكَانُواْ عَنۡہَا غَـٰفِلِينَ (١٤٦

 

 

He said: O Moses! I have preferred thee above mankind by My messages and by My speaking (unto thee). So hold that which I have given thee, and be among the thankful. (144) And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying to the Muhammad-s): Take the better therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers. (145) I shall turn away from My revelations those who magnify themselves wrongfully in the earth, and if they see each token believe it not, and if they see the way of righteousness choose it nor for (their) way, and if they see the way of error choose if for (their) way. That is because they deny Our revelations and are used to disregard them. (146)

 

 

 

If we want do not complicate anything we should accept that "All things” means all things!

And, taking the better needs to be something not better but "there is something" any way. Isn’t it?!

and you tell us that Bible is changed, and by this, as if you are about erasing the message of these verses from your mind and Muslim people`s mind! If disagree, tell me how you use this verses and what is the reason of Quran to talk about these things?!What is the message of these words for you? Knowing that there was something in thousands years ago and u cannot know what that was?! What is the message of the first verses of Al-Baqara , when says :

الٓمٓ (١) ذَٲلِكَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبُ لَا رَيۡبَ‌ۛ فِيهِ‌ۛ هُدً۬ى لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٢) ٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱلۡغَيۡبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقۡنَـٰهُمۡ يُنفِقُونَ (٣) وَٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيۡكَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ مِن قَبۡلِكَ وَبِٱلۡأَخِرَةِ هُمۡ يُوقِنُونَ (٤)

Alif. Lam. Mim. (1) This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4)

 

Is she talking about believed only in that which revealed unto Muhammad? Or both, in that which revealed unto Muhammad and that which revealed before him? As you see, Quran will not lead everyone who does not really believe in that which revealed before Muhammad. Then if there is not any unchanged Bible or Torah, how we can believe in them?!!! Believe in something that is not in our hands?!!! Believe in books that do not exist?!!!  

 

On the other hand , isn`t it the same that you tell: “explains how the Qur'an is to prevail previous scriptures

 

مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ وَمُهَيۡمِنًا عَلَيۡهِ‌ۖ

 

Puting the Quran in a battle against other scriptures, or knowing the harmony?

Is the phrase:” Mohaimen Alaihe” (guardian over it) in the meaning of something “better”? Or this is something more powerful to be Guardian of the others? You cannot answer: both!  Because one of them is the meaning of word “Guardian” means something which support and protect from damages, isn`t it? In these verses Quran is talking about herself who confirmed the previous scriptures and Also, Protect them from changes and damages.

Is it complexity of my explanation?!!  Or this is only the meaning of the words of Quran?

 
 

And thanks for your advice, I read all of the Quran previously and use to read it nearly every day at present. And I did not find any better explanation to Quran, unless the holy Bible.

You cannot find even one verse in Quran that says Bible is changed, but every day I hear from Muslims that Bible is changed and we cannot trust on this book. Why?!! This is not for any reason except, trust in something exclude the words of God; believe in someone who is not the Creator, but a creature just like us. As Quran says everybody who does not believe in the book of Moses will be in the hell:

أَفَمَن كَانَ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ۬ مِّن رَّبِّهِۦ وَيَتۡلُوهُ شَاهِدٌ۬ مِّنۡهُ وَمِن قَبۡلِهِۦ كِتَـٰبُ مُوسَىٰٓ إِمَامً۬ا وَرَحۡمَةً‌ۚ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِهِۦ‌ۚ وَمَن يَكۡفُرۡ بِهِۦ مِنَ ٱلۡأَحۡزَابِ فَٱلنَّارُ مَوۡعِدُهُ ۥ‌ۚ فَلَا تَكُ فِى مِرۡيَةٍ۬ مِّنۡهُ‌ۚ إِنَّهُ ٱلۡحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَڪۡثَرَ ٱلنَّاسِ لَا يُؤۡمِنُونَ (١٧

.....and before it was the Book of Moses, an example and a mercy? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believe not. (17

 

And in the next example:

هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَرۡسَلَ رَسُولَهُ ۥ بِٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ ٱلۡحَقِّ لِيُظۡهِرَهُ ۥ عَلَى ٱلدِّينِ كُلِّهِۦ‌ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ شَهِيدً۬ا (٢٨)

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion. And Allah sufficeth as a Witness. (28)

This is talking about God`s will to prevail over all religion, may we say prevail the religion Islam (as the strategy or methods of Muhammad at the first years of Islam) to other fake religions which were in that time. But is not talking about prevail of Quran on Bible !!!!!

 

You wrote: “Qur'an was sent as the final guidance, to prevail what was sent with previous Prophets”

As your opinion, I respect that, but it’s not from Quran, only understanding from some other books.

Because Quran says had been sent for confirmation what was sent with previous Prophets, as you read it in the previous lines upward, not to prevail!

 

When I am talking about the Bible, I am talking about a book which included Old and new testaments and some letters which all of them were written by the apostles of Jesus Christ:

The New Testament

Autographs

45- 95 A.D. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Pauline Epistles, the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, and the book of Acts are all dated from 45-63 A.D. The Gospel of John and the Revelation may have been written as late as 95 A.D.

Manuscripts

There are over 5,600 early Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament that are still in existence. The oldest manuscripts were written on papyrus and the later manuscripts were written on leather called parchment.

·         125 A.D. The New Testament manuscript which dates most closely to the original autograph was copied around 125 A.D, within 35 years of the original. It is designated "p 52" and contains a small portion of John 18. (The "p" stands for papyrus.)

·         200 A.D. Bodmer p 66 a papyrus manuscript which contains a large part of the Gospel of John.

·         200 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 46 contains the Pauline Epistles and Hebrews.

·         225 A.D. Bodmer Papyrus p 75 contains the Gospels of Luke and John.

·         250-300 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 45 contains portions of the four Gospels and Acts.

·         350 A.D. Codex Sinaiticus contains the entire New Testament and almost the entire Old Testament in Greek. It was discovered by a German scholar Tisendorf in 1856 at an Orthodox monastery at Mt. Sinai.

·         350 A.D. Codex Vaticanus: {B} is an almost complete New Testament. It was cataloged as being in the Vatican Library since 1475

·        How was the New Testament canon determined?

·         The Early church had three criteria for determining what books were to be included or excluded from the Canon of the New Testament.

·         First, the books must have apostolic authority-- that is, they must have been written either by the apostles themselves, who were eyewitnesses to what they wrote about, or by associates of the apostles.

·         Second, there was the criterion of conformity to what was called the "rule of faith." In other words, was the document congruent with the basic Christian tradition that the church recognized as normative.

·         Third, there was the criterion of whether a document had enjoyed continuous acceptance and usage by the church at large.

·         The gospel of Thomas is not included in the Canon of the New Testament for the following reasons.

·         The gospel of Thomas fails the test of Apostolic authority. None of the early church fathers from Clement to Irenaeus ever quoted from the gospel of Thomas. This indicates that they either did not know of it or that they rejected it as spurious. In either case, the early church fathers fail to support the gospel of Thomas' claim to have been written by the apostle. It was believed to by written around 140 A.D. There is no evidence to support its purported claim to be written by the Apostle Thomas himself.

·         The gospel of Thomas fails to conform to the rule of faith. It purports to contain 114 "secret sayings" of Jesus. Some of these are very similar to the sayings of Jesus recorded in the Four Gospels. For example the gospel of Thomas quotes Jesus as saying, "A city built on a high hill cannot be hidden." This reads the same as Matthew's Gospel except that high is added. But Thomas claims that Jesus said, "Split wood; I am there. Lift up a stone, and you will find me there." That concept is pantheistic. Thomas ends with the following saying that denies women salvation unless they are some how changed into being a man. "Let Mary go away from us, because women are not worthy of life." Jesus is quoted as saying, "Lo, I shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven."

·         The gospel of Thomas fails the test of continuous usage and acceptance. The lack of manuscript evidence plus the failure of the early church fathers to quote from it or recognize it shows that it was not used or accepted in the early Church. Only two manuscripts are known of this "gospel." Until 1945 only a single fifth-century copy translation in Coptic had been found. Then in 1945 a Greek manuscript of the Gospel of Thomas was found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt. This compares very poorly to the thousands of manuscripts that authenticate the Four Gospels.

·          

 

If you want know better about that continue by refer to this address:

 

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.html

 

but this Book is the same that most of Christians believes that and are preaching and teaching that at present. When Quran was revealed , there were thousands of this book in all of the world and as Quran says : in their hands.

Then if Quran confirm the Bible, definitely she does not talking about an invisible book! God is wise enough to find out what is talking about!

appologize and happy for my mistake and there are many truth seekers here, thanks to God for all of you



Posted By: Meditations
Date Posted: 16 September 2009 at 12:42pm

( As I mentioned earlier, I was traveling, I edited the post now to have the remaining of the reply, please re-read before replying )

Originally posted by Moses

Hi,

Hi Moses

Originally posted by Moses


Although you are kind, I did not find my answers.

By God's will you will find your answers by me or someone else

I'm currently travelling, hence the slow replies


I also have asked several questions which it seems you didn't answer like :

1- So you believe Jesus is a Prophet , He's not a God, or Son of God ?

2- Since you're asking this question, do you believe that Qur'an is God's words then ?

and thus following the bible because you say the Qur'an asks believers to follow it ?


Now to your questions 


Originally posted by Moses

If the Bible was changed or corrupted in the time of Quran, why the Quran talks about that and ask the prophet to tell that for his people,

See:

 
 قَالَ يَـٰمُوسَىٰٓ إِنِّى ٱصۡطَفَيۡتُكَ عَلَى ٱلنَّاسِ بِرِسَـٰلَـٰتِى وَبِكَلَـٰمِى فَخُذۡ مَآ ءَاتَيۡتُكَ وَكُن مِّنَ ٱلشَّـٰكِرِينَ (١٤٤) وَڪَتَبۡنَا لَهُ ۥ فِى ٱلۡأَلۡوَاحِ مِن ڪُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ مَّوۡعِظَةً۬ وَتَفۡصِيلاً۬ لِّكُلِّ شَىۡءٍ۬ فَخُذۡهَا بِقُوَّةٍ۬ وَأۡمُرۡ قَوۡمَكَ يَأۡخُذُواْ بِأَحۡسَنِہَا‌ۚ سَأُوْرِيكُمۡ دَارَ ٱلۡفَـٰسِقِينَ (١٤٥) سَأَصۡرِفُ عَنۡ ءَايَـٰتِىَ ٱلَّذِينَ يَتَكَبَّرُونَ فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ بِغَيۡرِ ٱلۡحَقِّ وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ ڪُلَّ ءَايَةٍ۬ لَّا يُؤۡمِنُواْ بِہَا وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ سَبِيلَ ٱلرُّشۡدِ لَا يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلاً۬ وَإِن يَرَوۡاْ سَبِيلَ ٱلۡغَىِّ يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلاً۬‌ۚ ذَٲلِكَ بِأَنَّہُمۡ كَذَّبُواْ بِـَٔايَـٰتِنَا وَكَانُواْ عَنۡہَا غَـٰفِلِينَ (١٤٦

 

 

He said: O Moses! I have preferred thee above mankind by My messages and by My speaking (unto thee). So hold that which I have given thee, and be among the thankful. (144) And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying to the Muhammad-s): Take the better therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers. (145) I shall turn away from My revelations those who magnify themselves wrongfully in the earth, and if they see each token believe it not, and if they see the way of righteousness choose it nor for (their) way, and if they see the way of error choose if for (their) way. That is because they deny Our revelations and are used to disregard them. (146)

 

 

 

If we want do not complicate anything we should accept that "All things” means all things!

And, taking the better needs to be something not better but "there is something" any way. Isn’t it?!

and you tell us that Bible is changed, and by this, as if you are about erasing the message of these verses from your mind and Muslim people`s mind! If disagree, tell me how you use this verses and what is the reason of Quran to talk about these things?!What is the message of these words for you? Knowing that there was something in thousands years ago and u cannot know what that was?!



you're quoting Surat Al-A'araaf ( 7 ) verses 144-146

Where exactly did you get this translation that says ( saying to Muhammad ) ?

There's no mention in these verses of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) , even continuing several verses after it has no mention of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) it's talking about Prophet Moses ( PBUH )

Anyone who understand proper arabic will know this ,

Also below are three of the most popular english translations to the meaning of the Qur'an , you will find it confirms what I'm saying


[Shakir 7:145] And We ordained for him in the tablets admonition of every kind and clear explanation of all things; so take hold of them with firmness and enjoin your people to take hold of what is best thereof; I will show you the abode of the transgressors.
[Yusufali 7:145] And We ordained laws for him in the tablets in all matters, both commanding and explaining all things, (and said): "Take and hold these with firmness, and enjoin thy people to hold fast by the best in the precepts: soon shall I show you the homes of the wicked,- (How they lie desolate)."
[Pickthal 7:145] And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying): Take the better (course made clear) therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers.


If you still have a question after knowing this , please rephrase it


Originally posted by Moses

What is the message of the first verses of Al-Baqara , when says :

الٓمٓ (١) ذَٲلِكَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبُ لَا رَيۡبَ‌ۛ فِيهِ‌ۛ هُدً۬ى لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٢) ٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱلۡغَيۡبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقۡنَـٰهُمۡ يُنفِقُونَ (٣) وَٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيۡكَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ مِن قَبۡلِكَ وَبِٱلۡأَخِرَةِ هُمۡ يُوقِنُونَ (٤)

Alif. Lam. Mim. (1) This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4)

 

Is she talking about believed only in that which revealed unto Muhammad? Or both, in that which revealed unto Muhammad and that which revealed before him?


Qura'an talks about those who believe in what was revealed to Prohpet Muhammad and all the Prophets before him ( PBUT )


Originally posted by Moses

As you see, Quran will not lead everyone who does not really believe in that which revealed before Muhammad. Then if there is not any unchanged Bible or Torah, how we can believe in them?!!! Believe in something that is not in our hands?!!! Believe in books that do not exist?!!!  

 



No muslim ever said these revelations didn't exist, we believe these revelations happened , and was from God, this is what the verses are talking about

We believe in the past events that occurred, as well as the unknown to our normal senses , such as angels , heaven and hell ...etc.


We believe in the books that was sent to Abraham, even though it's not available now, nor ( AFAIK ) was available at the times of the Prophet Muhammed ( PBUH )

We believe Adam ( PBUH ) was created without parents, did we see this happen ?

We believe Moses split the sea, did we see this happen ?


This is what differentiates a muslim from people of other beliefs / thoughts , such as hindus, buddhist ...etc. whom wouldn't believe in these revelations at all.


This is because Qur'an is sent from the same God who sent all previous Prophets ( PBUT ) , and because Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) didn't invent some new religion , it's the same religion that all Prophets called for , which is worshipping the one and only God
The practices are common in principle, while differs in details
Same as the jews had certain practices , which Jesus ( PBUH ) came and  parts of these practices were changed , Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) came and parts of these practices we changed

Qur'an endorses this in several verses, such as saying that Fasting is obligatory upon us , same as it was obligatory upon those who came before us  ( Surat Al Baqara'a ( 2 ) verse 183

I think looking at the Qur'an as the Final Testament, not something separate from a different source will help putting a different perspective when you read it




Originally posted by Moses

On the other hand , isn`t it the same that you tell: “explains how the Qur'an is to prevail previous scriptures

 

مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ وَمُهَيۡمِنًا عَلَيۡهِ‌ۖ

 

Puting the Quran in a battle against other scriptures, or knowing the harmony?

As mentioned above, Qur'an changes the practices, same as Jesus ( PBUH ) changed the practices that was before him

There's no battles, this why the Qur'an is endorsing the existence of these revelations


Originally posted by Moses


Is the phrase:” Mohaimen Alaihe” (guardian over it) in the meaning of something “better”? Or this is something more powerful to be Guardian of the others? You cannot answer: both!  Because one of them is the meaning of word “Guardian” means something which support and protect from damages, isn`t it? In these verses Quran is talking about herself who confirmed the previous scriptures and Also, Protect them from changes and damages.

Is it complexity of my explanation?!!  Or this is only the meaning of the words of Quran?

 



There's nothing is this verse that mentions protecting it from change, again where do you get this from ? Do you read it in arabic or english ? 


Originally posted by Moses

And thanks for your advice, I read all of the Quran previously and use to read it nearly every day at present. And I did not find any better explanation to Quran, unless the holy Bible.


I'm not sure I understand the above phrase

Originally posted by Moses

You cannot find even one verse in Quran that says Bible is changed, but every day I hear from Muslims that Bible is changed and we cannot trust on this book. Why?!!


Because as mentioned before in several verses, the Qur'an speaks about the changing of the old and new testament by the people it was sent to


Originally posted by Moses

As Quran says everybody who does not believe in the book of Moses will be in the hell:


This is the islamic view as well, everyone is requested to believe in ALL books sent by God , whether to Abraham, Moses, Jesus, David ( PBUT )


The question to you is , where is the book of Moses ?


In the information you put below there's no mention of the old testament, when it was compiled, any references to it


Originally posted by Moses

And in the next example:

هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَرۡسَلَ رَسُولَهُ ۥ بِٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ ٱلۡحَقِّ لِيُظۡهِرَهُ ۥ عَلَى ٱلدِّينِ كُلِّهِۦ‌ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ شَهِيدً۬ا (٢٨)

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion. And Allah sufficeth as a Witness. (28)

This is talking about God`s will to prevail over all religion, may we say prevail the religion Islam (as the strategy or methods of Muhammad at the first years of Islam) to other fake religions which were in that time. But is not talking about prevail of Quran on Bible !!!!!


The verse is talking about religions, not books
After Jesus was sent, whoever lived then , whether he was a jew or not , is requested to follow Jesus
( PBUH ) , this didn't mean that judaism wasn't a religion from God, but the sending of Jesus ( PBUH ) meant it is the current religion to follow

After Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), the teachings he came with became the religion to follow, and thus Qur'an became the book to follow

This is also turning into a topic different than the original topic , which is if the bible ( in it's current form ) is still the word of God
it might be beneficial to move other discussions to a new topic and stick to the topic

Originally posted by Moses


You wrote: “Qur'an was sent as the final guidance, to prevail what was sent with previous Prophets”

As your opinion, I respect that, but it’s not from Quran, only understanding from some other books.

Because Quran says had been sent for confirmation what was sent with previous Prophets, as you read it in the previous lines upward, not to prevail!

The verse is clear that the teachings of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) is to prevail previous teachings,

It confirms these teachings exists, and requests believers to believe it existed, and to follow the new teachings

This is what the Qur'an says, and this is what the person who the Qur'an was sent through taught, which is how we should understand Qur'an , in the light of what Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) taugh

That said, what are we discussing exactly ?

Originally posted by Moses

When I am talking about the Bible, I am talking about a book which included Old and new testaments and some letters which all of them were written by the apostles of Jesus Christ:

Ok, I will assume that what you wrote is correct

Summarizing what you said it means :

New testament was written in Greek between the years 45-95 , these writings we have no reference to at the moment, correct ?

There're 5600 greek manuscripts that still exist
The oldest papyrus we have was copied year 125
The oldest compilation that contains almost what's called now new and old testament dates back to year 350

First : The old testament
A scientific approach would mean we need to know

When was it revealed
How it was written
Which language it was written in
Who wrote it
How did reach us


Without knowing these answers, can we tell that what we call today 'the old testament' is what was revealed to Moses ( PBUH ) ?

Second : The new testament
Which language did Jesus speak ? Greek, Hebrew or Aramic ?
Combining the 5,600 manuscripts you speak of together, what percentage would it make of the new / old testament ?

Assuming the earliest dates you mentioned
What is the guarantee that something that was written on the year 45 then copied on year 125 ( and stretches in parts to year 225 at least ) retains completely it's original

For us muslims, having a 45 days gap ( not a 45 months or a 45 year, not mention tens or hunderds  ) between a person who receives a message / text ...etc. and the next person who reports / writes it , makes it an unacceptable
The weakest category of sayings of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), hadeeth da'eef ( weak hadeeth ) which some scholars don't even accept to use it as evidence, have way far authenticity that this   

Add to that, that according to the three categories you mention


Originally posted by Moses

   First, the books must have apostolic authority-- that is, they must have been written either by the apostles themselves, who were eyewitnesses to what they wrote about, or by associates of the apostles.

·         Second, there was the criterion of conformity to what was called the "rule of faith." In other words, was the document congruent with the basic Christian tradition that the church recognized as normative.

·         Third, there was the criterion of whether a document had enjoyed continuous acceptance and usage by the church at large.



Means they didn't only accept what was written by the apostles or their associates , they accepted what seems to suit ( the rule of faith ) and the general acceptance and usage by the church at large!

This in any logical sense makes us sure what was written can not be proven to be 100 % exactly what was revealed

Also , the words rule of faith , and general acceptance and usage by the curch seem to be very flexible words
Which rule of faith you speak of ? the one that says Jesus is God, or Son of God ?
Which church acceptance , the catholic church, orthodox church, angelic church ? Which church did accept this ?

Set aside that we're muslims, how can you prove to someone who's not muslim, that the current bible have any links to Jesus ( PBUH ) ? you have no direct links,
you don't  know
for sure who wrote each of these manuscripts
you don't know whom they received it from
you don't know what were their ideologies, if they had motives to alter it or not

How can you convince someone to accept such links to what you claim is the source of salvation and eternal happiness ? Even if I wasn't muslim, it wouldn't make any sense from a logical / scientific point of view

Which is no surprise most of the west today reject faith in all, or think of it as something contradictory to science

That said about the old compilations, I urge you to fetch a copy of the bible that's only 200 years old, and closely start comparing it with the current printed version, I'm sure you'll be very surprised
Originally posted by Moses


but this Book is the same that most of Christians believes that and are preaching and teaching that at present. 

This is a big statement, can you refer to a copy of this book ( which you say is in the vatican library ) and a comparison between it and current version of bible ? 

Originally posted by Moses

When Quran was revealed , there were thousands of this book in all of the world and as Quran says : in their hands.


Excellent, so can you provide a few copies of these thousands that dates to the time of the Qur'an and compare to each other, and to the copy in the vatican library ?

Originally posted by Moses

Then if Quran confirm the Bible, definitely she does not talking about an invisible book!

The Qur'an confirms the revelations that was sent to Moses and Jesus ( PBUT )
At the times of the Qur'an both jews and christians had books in a written form, which the Qur'an accused them of altering it, no one said it was invisible or didn't exist, we said it was altered , and the alteration continued, even at our modern times, where you keep getting
"new edition' of the holy book,
Ever wondered what are the new editions that were changed in it ?

I hope you provide some answers to the questions, same as you get answers

Regards 



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 September 2009 at 3:04pm
Jazakallah Meditation, may Allah reward you for going in detail with patience. Ameen,
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 18 September 2009 at 7:47pm
salaams shibbo
 
 do me a favor shibo. look up the word Gentile ( WEBSTER ONLINE WILL DO) paste the definitions here and tell us which one has been allowed in or "given a place" in gods house.
 
I'll wait for your reply.
leland
 
P.S Meditations is mushaallh!!! alhamduliah!!!!


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love for all conquers all


Posted By: Meditations
Date Posted: 18 September 2009 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by honeto

Jazakallah Meditation, may Allah reward you for going in detail with patience. Ameen,
Hasan


Jazak Allah you too dear

A note for all of us , we shouldn't argue unless with patience and good means

[29:46]
And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.

If one can't hold to these two for any reason, I urge them not to
may Allah ( SWT) grant us patience, wisdom and good deeds

Ameen



Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 19 September 2009 at 3:37pm

Again, you send me links and statements from so-called scholars but I’m still waiting for someone to send me something that out dates the Dead Sea Scrolls authentication of the Holy Bible, the oldest manuscripts that CONFIRMS what we call the BIBLE in it’s purest form today September 19, 2009.  

 

Over time, some 900 separate scrolls were found. They date from the third century BCE through the first century CE. My word just Google it, you’re googling everything else!

 

Just sending a link or someone’s opinion on the subject just doesn’t cut it! Present facts not opinions! Can you find these links or statements at a museum, no! Do they date back before the time of Muhammad, no!

 

You have proven again in your world, opinions are what matters not facts not real solid evidence. Go to the Qumran Library, the library of Congress, the British Museum, Israel Museum or Google it from the comfort of your home. That’s PROOF! Not links and debates, those are ONLY opinions, one-sided because I can’t ask them question etc…

Read with an open mind **Pay specific attention to #10 and #25**

http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html - http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html - http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

 
The Dead Sea Scrolls, which date back to the events described in the New Testament, have added to our understanding of the Jewish background of Christianity. Scholars have pointed to similarities between beliefs and practices outlined in the Qumran literature and those of early Christians. These parallels include comparable rituals of baptism, communal meals, and property. Most interesting is the parallel organizational structures: the sectarians divided themselves into twelve tribes led by twelve chiefs, similar to the structure of the early Church, with twelve apostles who, according to Jesus, would to sit on twelve thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Many scholars believe that both the literature of Qumran and the early Christian teachings stem from a common stream within Judaism and do not reflect a direct link between the Qumran community and the early Christians.

 

The Bible as we have it today is close to those scientifically proven manuscript that dates back HUNDREDS of years before Muhammad’s birth, 100’s! Show something that dates back that far that PROVES God’s word is corrupt, all sixty six books of the Bible! Even the Prophet knew not to go THERE!

 

Now! If you want to make this interesting because you’re not going to be able to send me ANYTHING that out-dates the “DEAD SEA SCROLL” but read it, so many things you can learn.

 

Send me 3 scriptures that YOU think are corrupt and why and let us discuss it, particularly those dealing with Muhammad.




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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 19 September 2009 at 4:42pm
To Nazarene...................this requires another thread.

The term Gentile (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language - Latin , gentilis, meaning of or belonging to a clan or tribe) refers to non- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelite - Israelite tribes or nations in English translations of the
Bible

Until 36 C.E. the Christian message was directed solely to Jews, to Gentiles who had become circumcised Jewish proselytes, and to Samaritans.

“The kingdom of God will be taken from you (Jews) and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (Matthew 21:43) Rebuilt temple destroyed in 70C.E. (Matthew 23:37, 38)
 

“God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”—Acts 10:34, 35.

 

‘God has granted repentance for the purpose of life to people of the nations also.’” (Acts 11:18)

 

Acts 2:17-18

يَقُولُ اللهُ: وَيَكُونُ فِي الأَيَّامِ الأَخِيرَةِ أَنِّي أَسْكُبُ مِنْ رُوحِي عَلَى كُلِّ بَشَرٍ، فَيَتَنَبَّأُ بَنُوكُمْ وَبَنَاتُكُمْ، وَيَرَى شَبَابُكُمْ رُؤًى وَيَحْلُمُ شُيُوخُكُمْ أَحْلاَمًا.

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

وَعَلَى عَبِيدِي أَيْضًا وَإِمَائِي أَسْكُبُ مِنْ رُوحِي فِي تِلْكَ الأَيَّامِ فَيَتَنَبَّأُونَ.

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy

 

Acts 2:1-21

 

2 Now while the day of the [festival of] Pentecost was in progress they were all together at the same place, 2 and suddenly there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. 3 And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, 4 and they all became filled with holy spirit and started to speak with different tongues, just as the spirit was granting them to make utterance.

5 As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Indeed, they were astonished and began to wonder and say: “See here, all these who are speaking are Gal·i·le´ans, are they not? 8 And yet how is it we are hearing, each one of us, his own language in which we were born? 9 Par´thi·ans and Medes and E´lam·ites, and the inhabitants of Mes·o·po·ta´mi·a, and Ju·de´a and Cap·pa·do´ci·a, Pon´tus and the [district of] Asia, 10 and Phryg´i·a and Pam·phyl´i·a, Egypt and the parts of Lib´y·a, which is toward Cy·re´ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cre´tans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues about the magnificent things of God.” 12 Yes, they were all astonished and were in perplexity, saying one to another: “What does this thing purport to be?” 13 However, different ones mocked at them and began to say: “They are full of sweet wine.”

14 But Peter stood up with the eleven and raised his voice and made this utterance to them: “Men of Ju·de´a and all YOU inhabitants of Jerusalem, let this be known to YOU and give ear to my sayings. 15 These [people] are, in fact, not drunk, as YOU suppose, for it is the third hour of the day. 16 On the contrary, this is what was said through the prophet Joel, 17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh, and YOUR sons and YOUR daughters will prophesy and YOUR young men will see visions and YOUR old men will dream dreams; 18 and even upon my men slaves and upon my women slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. 19 And I will give portents in heaven above and signs on earth below, blood and fire and smoke mist; 20 the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and illustrious day of Jehovah arrives. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”’




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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 September 2009 at 4:55pm

Isn't the true question whether the Bible was ever the Word of God?



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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Meditations
Date Posted: 20 September 2009 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Isn't the true question whether the Bible was ever the Word of God?



It depends on what you mean by the 'bible'
do you mean what was revealed to Moses ( PBUH ) Al taw'rah, which is what people call what they have now and think of it as it is 'The old testament'
or do you mean what was revealed to Jesus ( PBUH ) Al Injeel, which is what people call what they have now and think of it as it is 'The new testament'
Do you mean what was revealed to David ( PBUH ) ?
Or is it something that's a combination of all these ?

So it depends on what you consider the 'bible' and in which stage in time

Definitely each of the mentioned above is a divine revelation when it was revealed, the question is how much of it's original revelation reached us ?

Regards



Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 September 2009 at 5:05pm

"or do you mean what was revealed to Jesus ( PBUH ) Al Injeel, which is what people call what they have now and think of it as it is 'The new testament'"

Actually, the New Testament is not the Injeel, nor is it the Gospel which Jesus was spreading. The Gospel of Jesus was an oral Gospel and as far as is known there is no written account.

 

 




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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 20 September 2009 at 7:35pm
""Definitely each of the mentioned above is a divine revelation when it was revealed, the question is how much of it's original revelation reached us ?""

No matter how much Muslims deny the Bible with it's OldT & NewT you can't get away from the "Facts of Science. Still matches up to the Bible we have in 2009! Why wouldn't it, God promise that he would preserve it! Until YOU can show otherwise it really is a dead issue.

25 Things Muslims don't want you to know about the BIBLE below......
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

The Great Prophet Jeremiah! Whether you like it or not!
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22060312-2,00.html

You've been told by your Imams all these untruths about the Bible that we have today but it still matches the ones going back 2000 years way before your prophet.






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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 20 September 2009 at 8:27pm

Jewish opponents of Christianity never challenged the powerful works described in the Gospels. Read and find out why.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyri - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyri

 

These fragments are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaeography - palaeographically dated to the first half of the 3rd century, 3rd century! Same New Testament or Christian Greek scriptures we have today in the Bible! PEOPLE I can prove this all day long. It’s God’s word! Let go of what you been told, lies. I’m showing you proof. Again, waaaaaay before your messengers time. FACTS! PROOF! SCIENCE!

 

Shasta's, member_profile.asp?PF=48942&FID=10 - Do you have blind faith in the face of all proof or you still believe there are no written accounts?

 

Here are 25 Things Muslims don't want other Muslims to know about the BIBLE below......it’s just too, too hard to swallow. But swallow now or choke later, YOU decide.
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html - http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html

 

The Great Prophet Jeremiah! Whether you like it or not! Like Paul, he was heaven sent!
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22060312-2,00.html - http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22060312-2,00.html



-------------
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 21 September 2009 at 9:31am

Originally posted by moses

When I am talking about the Bible, I am talking about a book which included Old and new testaments and some which all of them were written by the apostles of Jesus Christ:

This still means nothing. If you would take a look at the link

 

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/

 

You will see a list and dates of a trail of confusion. This confusion is based upon the fact that your own doctors have been chasing their tails for two thousand years trying to define a “bible”. 

The next link clearly demonstrates the confusion is “mass” confusion when you take the OT and NT into account with respect to the time before and after Islam.

 

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/canonages.html - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/canonages.html

 

Keep in mind that it was not until the last few centuries that your faith has come closer to agreement to what makes up your holy book. Even now you have some who want nothing but the KJV as the official version of Gods word in English.

 

 

 

 

 

The New Testament

Autographs

45- 95 A.D. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Pauline Epistles, the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, and the book of Acts are all dated from 45-63 A.D. The Gospel of John and the Revelation may have been written as late as 95 A.D.

A dating alone does not necessarily give us the conclusion your source is trying to imply. As an example, Galatians is dated about 50 CE. Wow! We have a letter from Paul that gets us to a time close to Jesus! Or do we. Christians love to brag and boast about MS dating, but usually much is left out and I also believe their theologians who know better mislead their flocks.

 

Galatians is dated to about 50 CE, the problem is that the earliest MS, P46, dates to 200 CE. That is 15 decades, 150 years, between the time the letter is dated, and an actual copy of the letter that remains. So we have a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a letter that Paul wrote. Keep in mind I am not addressing the theological issues, only the notion if a dated MS and what it means and does not mean. So when you open your bible and read Galatians, you are not actually reading what Paul wrote, you are reading a second century document that represents a transmission of copies that extend back 150 years earlier.

There was no method for transmission, there was no critical methodology for preserving Paul’s word in any accurate way, there is no way to reconstruct what the copy our MS came from looked like. The point is, no one can say, with any certainty, if Galatians is a word for word accurate representation of what Paul wrote. Christian literature is full of accounts of people falsifying accounts and writing in other people’s names. In fact, half of Paul’s work is now hotly contested as forgeries.

Manuscripts

There are over 5,600 early Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament that are still in existence. The oldest manuscripts were written on papyrus and the later manuscripts were written on leather called parchment.      

 

 

The problem with this claim is that the complete MSS do not get you any closer than 400 years to late second temple.

 

 

 

·         125 A.D. The New Testament manuscript which dates most closely to the original autograph was copied around 125 A.D, within 35 years of the original. It is designated "p 52" and contains a small portion of John 18. (The "p" stands for papyrus.)

 

P52 is not a NT MS, it is a fragment.

http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/greek/johnpap.html

 

You are still in the same position as with Galatians.

 

·         200 A.D. Bodmer p 66 a papyrus manuscript which contains a large part of the Gospel of John.

 

 

I would not say a large part, it is also segments, (John 1:1-6:11; 6:35-14:26, 29-30; 15:2-26; 16:2-4, 6-7; 16:10-20:20, 22-23; 20:25-21:9, 12, 17) and does not have the story of the adulteress. Now that is a bit strange.

  http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/P66.html - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/P66.html

 

 

·         200 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 46 contains the Pauline Epistles and Hebrews.

 

Incomplete, and we are still back to my example of Galatians.

 

 

 

 

·         225 A.D. Bodmer Papyrus p 75 contains the Gospels of Luke and John.

 

 

(Luke 3:18-22; 3:33 - 4:2; 4:34 - 5:10; 5:37 - 6:4; 6:10 - 7:32, 35-39, 41-43; 7:46 - 9:2; 9:4 - 17:15; 17:19 - 18:18; 22:4 - 24:53; John 1:1 - 11:45, 48-57; 12:3 - 13:1, 8-9; 14:8-29; 15:7-8.)

Interesting note: The manuscript does not include the pericope of the adulteress (7:53 - 8:11), making it the second earliest witness (next to http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/P66.html - - 66 ) not to include this spurious passage. (this is one of those mistakes that entered into “bible”).

 

Keep in mind that we are still at the problem as demonstrated with Galatians.

 

http://www.earlham.edu/~seidti/iam/tc_pap75.html -  

 

 

 

 

 

·         250-300 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 45 contains portions of the four Gospels and Acts.

 

Here is an image.

 

http://www.bsw.org/project/biblica/bibl82/images/Carta.jpg -  

 

Again, we have another example of an incomplete copy copied from lost copies removed 140 years or so from their actual time. We are still at the Galatians example.

 

 

·         350 A.D. Codex Sinaiticus contains the entire New Testament and almost the entire Old Testament in Greek. It was discovered by a German scholar Tisendorf in 1856 at an Orthodox monastery at Mt. Sinai.

 

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/sinai.html -  

Saying it was complete would not be the complete truth. The contents are of interest: (It has both the Old and New Testaments. The New Testament contains Four Gospels, Acts, Catholic Epistles and Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews), Apocalypse, the Epistle of Barnabas and Shepherd of Hermas.)

So is it reasonable to say that the holy spirit has not yet inspired Christians after 300 years to know what a cannon is and is not? Something else of interest:

 

“Matthew 16:2 f. is omitted, Mark ends at 16:8, Luke 22:43 f. was marked as spurious by the first corrector, but these signs were canceled by the third corrector. John 5:4 and the Pericope de adultera are omitted. The doxology of Romans comes after 16:23 verse 24 being omitted. Hebrews follow immediately after II Thessalonians.”

It looks like the holy spirit is having some trouble guiding the faithful. And there is that story of the adulteress again. So after 300 years your scholars do not know if the story actually happened or not. I find it interesting that if we look at the evidences your source puts up, it really creates more problems for your claim.

·         350 A.D. Codex Vaticanus: {B} is an almost complete New Testament. It was cataloged as being in the Vatican Library since 1475

 

 

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/vatican.html -  

 

A 4th century book. Not only is the adulteress story still omitted, but you are no closer to proving your claim for a continuity going back to Jesus.

 



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 21 September 2009 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Shibboleth

Jewish opponents of Christianity never challenged the powerful works described in the Gospels. Read and find out why.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyri - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_Beatty_Papyri  

 
 
 
Originally posted by andalus

You Christians love hyperbole...."powerful"...."never challegend"...LOL...
If your belief system is truly founded on the bases of such absolute rubbish, then I truly feel sorry for you.
 
What was powerful about the book of enoch that Jews could not challenge it?
Why did the holy spirit change its mind and not include the book in your curren cannon?
 
Since the papyri is dated to 3rd century, what does the copy look like that it was copied from? You see, that is the real essential key that you guys like to forget about. Without any way of showing how the transmission was was maintained from the point of occuring to the point of in incomplete MS, you cannot say with any certainty that you have incomplete fragments of somthing that was initially produced late second temple period. You cannot say with ANYTHING with confidence about the copies before the 3rd century. Belief in the absence of evidence is faith.....so you only have blind faith that allows you to make your current claims. Not very convincing....
 
 
 
Originally posted by shibboleth

These fragments are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaeography - palaeographically dated to the first half of the 3rd century, 3rd century! Same New Testament or Christian Greek scriptures we have today in the Bible! PEOPLE I can prove this all day long. It’s God’s word! Let go of what you been told, lies. I’m showing you proof. Again, waaaaaay before your messengers time. FACTS! PROOF! SCIENCE!

 
 
Originally posted by andalus

 
Actually I just demonstrated that you have no facts to back your claims, only blind faith and speculation. So before you wet yourself about the 3rd century dating of an incomplete fragementary ms, try to comprehend what it means and does not mean.
 
 
 
Originally posted by shibboleth

Shasta's, member_profile.asp?PF=48942&FID=10 - Originally posted by andalus

Wow!!! 25 things huh? I am sure they are soooo powerful. I just cannot handle it...se you in church next sunday!
I am having trouble swallowing the idea that you are actually trying to be serious and that you believe you are somehow throwing daggers at Islam. Sensationalism might garner more donations on sunday, but sensationalsim hardly meets the criteria of a discourse.
 
 
 
Originally posted by shibboleth

 

The Great Prophet Jeremiah! Whether you like it or not! Like Paul, he was heaven sent!
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22060312-2,00.html - http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22060312-2,00.html

 
 
Originally posted by andalus

I am not even sure what to say? Your sophmoric approach to a dialogue is truly speechless.
 
There is an old saying where I grew up.....dazzle them with brilliance or baffle them with "male cow feces".


-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 September 2009 at 1:23pm

'Shasta's, http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=48942&FID=10 -

Unless the actual teachings of a very Jewish Rabbi named Jesus didn't quite fit in with the Pauline scriptures and the direction the Nicean Council wanted this new religion to follow. Then who knows....
 
But since leaving out entire gospels that didn't agree with the religious aspirations of a council of mere men would be downright sacreligious, such a thing could NEVER happen.
 



-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 21 September 2009 at 5:00pm

So member_profile.asp?PF=53261&FID=10 - Andalus , to make a long story short the Bible HAS been persevered which pre-dates ‘Islam’ by a long shot! What we have today is what was available before Muhammad’s birth; I’ll even work with you regarding the fragment portions to keep it simple. I’m not going play around with semantics with you; it’s too frivolous to say the least and time consuming. But, even if the MS go back to the 6th century, I’ll even say that ALTHOUGH it doesn’t, what has been corrupted? Let’s skip threw rhetoric. You tell me what’s been corrupted regarding the coming of Muhammad in the Bible that Muslims/Christians/Jews need to know. Let’s start with his prophethood.

 

The most important issue is whether Muhammad is a legitimate / true prophet in the tradition of the Biblical revelation of Moses in the Torah. In particular, the issue whether he is announced in the scriptures:

 

This translation is similar to the one in the 3rd Century for starters. If you’re using the KJV which I suspect you are almost 2000 years later, the message is the same.

 

I need YOU not a link to Explain how this applies to Muhammad; Deut. 18:18-20 “A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.”

 

(Side note for me- Compare Jeremiah 14:14; 28:11, 15.)

 



-------------
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Meditations
Date Posted: 21 September 2009 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth

So member_profile.asp?PF=53261&FID=10 - Andalus , to make a long story short the Bible HAS been persevered which pre-dates ‘Islam’ by a long shot!


Dear Shibboleth

I'm not sure how you make such statements

the bible is mainly the old testament and new testament

Even if the dates you mention is valid and even if the dead sea facts you posted here

http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html are valid,

it means the earliest reference we have of the old testament is written in the period of 200 B.C. to 68 C.E./A.D ( this is what the reference you posted says , fact 13 )

This means it's written at least a thousand year after Moses ( PBUH ), if not, please tell us how much time is there between Moses and Jesus ( PBUH )

Do you expect a sane person to trust that scrolls written after a thousand year, ( with text that was not publicly and openly recited on daily basis like muslims do with the Qur'an ) , remained exactly the same ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth

What we have today is what was available before Muhammad’s birth; I’ll even work with you regarding the fragment portions to keep it simple.


The table here that someone posted seems to work the fragment portions
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/canonages.html

Originally posted by Shibboleth

I’m not going play around with semantics with you; it’s too frivolous to say the least and time consuming. But, even if the MS go back to the 6th century, I’ll even say that ALTHOUGH it doesn’t,


Then which century it dates back to ? 3rd ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth

what has been corrupted?


again you're asking the question the other way around,

It's the basics of debating that if someone makes a claim, it's their task to prove it

if you want us ( or any person muslim or not ) to believe your claim that the Old testament, and the new testament hasn't been altered, it's your task to prove so

So far all what you presented are reference that all of it at it's earliest have huge time gaps between the text written, and the sources, not to mention the language differences and the percentage of the text available

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Let’s skip threw rhetoric. You tell me what’s been corrupted regarding the coming of Muhammad in the Bible that Muslims/Christians/Jews need to know.


Let’s start with his prophethood.

 

I prefer to start with the creation if this world

Does it say in the bible you read that God created the universe in six days then rested ?

I don't like to follow a God that rests

What if I need God someday and find out that God is resting? what shall I do then ? depend on myself ?

I started some threads trying to understand some puzzling issues regarding christianity, maybe you can shed your input in it

Care to explain the original sin ? trinity ?


Originally posted by Shibboleth

The most important issue is whether Muhammad is a legitimate / true prophet in the tradition of the Biblical revelation of Moses in the Torah.


In particular, the issue whether he is announced in the scriptures:


The scriptures which the earliest references to it is over a thousand year after it was revealed ?

Nevertheless, if you want to discuss this, please start a new topic

Originally posted by Shibboleth

This translation is similar to the one in the 3rd Century for starters. If you’re using the KJV which I suspect you are almost 2000 years later, the message is the same.


It would be useful to tell us which 'version' you use and consider the bible and in which language, so we can refer to it when speaking with you

Best Regards



Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 22 September 2009 at 9:27pm

Long story short, Muslims can choose to reject the historical evidence for the Gospel's fidelity. You can choose to reject both the secular and early Church father’s accounts that support the Gospel claims. You can even choose to reject archaeological findings that confirm the accuracy of the Gospel accounts. Yet, how can you reject your own Qur'anic and Hadithic affirmations of both the Gospel message and its existence in an UNCORRUPTED form during the life of Muhammad? That’s BLASPHEMY to the

10th POWER!

Besides, the same standard used by Muslims against the Bible or Gospels needs to be applied to the Qur’an itself. Muslims do not have the original Qur’an—not even an original copy of the Uthmanic codex! That’s the pot calling the kettle BLACK!

Unlike the Qur’an, variant copies of the Gospels were not burned, so the original text can be reconstructed in its entirety as shown. But, burning your own ‘revelations’ sounds suspect to me. Why burn your own revelations unless its source is not divine, or its verses are Satanic and therefore prone to human error.

Your source (Deedat) suggests, on page 14 of his booklet that if a Muslim should ever hand his publication to a missionary or Jehovah's Witness and request a written reply, he will never see them again - let alone ever get a reply. Here’s your CHANCE!

Note from Moderation: Some of the contribution was erased. Please try and reply within the context of the subject matter of the thread. Responding with topics that are being discussed in existing threads or topics not relavent to the thread should be avoided.
 

Maybe the admin will allow me to post a response to your message.



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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 22 September 2009 at 11:06pm

Originally posted by Shibboleth

So http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53261&FID=10 -

 

 

Yes…making long stories short…this is equivalent to the use of “yada yada yada” from the Seinfeld series. This gives the power to by pass any inconveniences. This is also called “handwaving”, comparable to what magicians do before the trick. You my disingenuous friend, are attempting to handwave your way through the discussion. I am not sure what evidence you have found, but so far what you have presented falls very short of any claim of “bible has been preserved”.  Proof by assertion is not proof, it is a fallacy. You have no clue about the origins of your gospel accounts, where they came from, who narrated them, or what the original stories looked like. If you assert that you do, then you are either a liar or ignorant.

I gave a link to a table that shows clearly all of the tail chasing your fellow worshipers were doing with regards to a canon. How can you make such an absurd claim to preservation when it took 2000 years to figure out what is a canon?

 

 

What we have today is what was available before Muhammad’s birth;

 

 

What you have before the birth of Prophet Muhammad (saw) are fragments, copies of copies of copies of copies of some original (without the first few copies in the first 150 years you have no clue as to what the earliest copies looked like). So, for you claim, I respond, so what? What does it mean and what does it prove? In light of what I have shown, it means nothing.

 

 

 

I’ll even work with you regarding the fragment portions to keep it simple.

 

 

 

LOL…..You have no choice. You will work with me? What else could you do, deny they are fragments? Pretend you are a fool or crazy? I mean really. A bunch of fragments were presented that were themselves removed by at least 150 years from the original. Keep it simple? This fact alone sinks your ship!

 

 

I’m not going play around with semantics with you; it’s too frivolous to say the least and time consuming.

 

 

I am with you…lets not engage in semantics. But do not hide behind strawmen to deflect from having to deal with the tons of problems I have pointed out in your evidence.

 

 

 But, even if the MS go back to the 6th century, I’ll even say that ALTHOUGH it doesn’t, what has been corrupted?

 

This is incoherent drivel. You have a collection of MS used by your doctors to conjure up a canon. The MSS become more uniform the later in date because professional scribes were used, vs. the times before 350CE when scribes were normally volunteers. The earliest MSS have a high rate of variants, rather verses and words that differ from MS to MS. These MSS were not all collected and catalogued as today; they were separated by region and time period.

 

The early copies are just that, COPIES. Copies removed from the point of origin by at least 100 to 150 years. So you have a HUGE gap in the transmission, without ANY way to reconstruct the copies your copies came from. As a statement of fact, you cannot say with any certainty how closely your early MSS match the point of origin for the source. So for a moment, lets forget about finding corruption in your current MS sources. What we can say with the evidence before us is that you are in no position to make claims with any element of confidence about Jesus or his path during late second temple period.

 

An example of a “corruption” in your bible, the story of the adulteress is not found in ANY of your early MSS witnesses. The story is not there. Any rational human would admit that the story was a later insertion at the hands of scribes.

(you provided me with that example when I took a look at the fragment evidence you presented, thank you for that information!)

 

 

 

 

Let’s skip threw rhetoric. You tell me what’s been corrupted regarding the coming of Muhammad in the Bible that Muslims/Christians/Jews need to know. Let’s start with his prophethood.

 

You mean lets skip the topic now that you have been presented with material that is over your head, and move on to something completely irrelevant! I do not think so. This is irrelevant to the thread. Stay on topic.

 

The most important issue is whether Muhammad is a legitimate / true prophet in the tradition of the Biblical revelation of Moses in the Torah. In particular, the issue whether he is announced in the scriptures:

 

This translation is similar to the one in the 3rd Century for starters. If you’re using the KJV which I suspect you are almost 2000 years later, the message is the same.

 

I need YOU not a link to Explain how this applies to Muhammad; Deut. 18:18-20 “A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him. However, the prophet who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.”

 

(Side note for me- Compare Jeremiah 14:14; 28:11, 15.)

 

Off topic. If you continue to go off topic every time you are faced with propositions you dislike, you will find yourself with an official warning. Seriously. This has become you M O. You engage in a topic, and then at a given point, you begin to blither about Gods name, deut 18, previous scriptures…You give me a headache. Stay on the topic in the thread. Seriously.

 



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 23 September 2009 at 5:02am
Originally posted by Shibboleth



<p ="Msonormal">So member_profile.asp?PF=53261&FID=10 - Andalus , to make a long story short the Bible HAS been persevered
which pre-dates ‘Islam’ by a long shot!
Falseno religion predates Islam there has always been Islam.The religion of Adam(As)was Islam he(As)submitted his will to Allah,he(As)prayed to Allah and he(As)asked Allah and only Allah for forgiveness ..ie Islam not Christianity.True fact even the Angels were told to bowSubhanAllah! and they did all accept one Iblis


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 23 September 2009 at 7:35am
Shibboleth you keep referring to the Quran and "quoting that "The Quran confirms the books that can before it",True but,The Quran is talking about the message being the same There is only one God All Praise is to him and worship only Him.So now that you know this please stop quoting you look foolish.


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 23 September 2009 at 7:59am
Originally posted by Shibboleth

You've been told by your Imams all these untruths about the Bible that we have today but it still matches the ones going back 2000 years way before your prophet.
You can't prove this can you?But I actually sat in Church in my early teens with a Bible and watched as the Rev,Preacher,Pastor,Priest,Bishop ect freestyle the Bible,But you know what, I dont blame them when almost every bible read like a shakspearian play back then and then it changed again(the Bible that is).I was told the truths about Bible contradictions,rewrites,misprints ect by Christian Bible scholars almost 16yrs ago.You problably would'nt believe the amount of Christians scholars who would debate this Bible being authentic theory of yours.


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 23 September 2009 at 2:29pm

 

Again, here is my proof in the Quran to the “Modern Day” Muslim of the 21st century! But be it fragments, tablets, canon, skin, camel, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, you still have not one shred of evidence of the Bible to be corrupted, just myths, denial and accusations. Can’t you just cut and paste to prove what was uncorrupted is now corrupted? You should be able to present at least 1, 2 or even 3 texts out of the Bible that was UNCORRUPTED but now it is CORRUPTED as we have it today. That is the basis of these posts!  

Surely you can do that! Prove your ALLAGATIONS with FACTS or call it quits!

  1. In the Qur'an, Al Imran 3:2, we read these words: "He sent down the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, as guidance to the people." God sent down the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of mankind.
  2. In al-Ma'ida 5:72: "Say: `People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel.'" This shows that the Torah and Gospel are reliable, otherwise Muhammad would not attest to them.
  3. Also in al-Ma'ida 5:51: "So let the People of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein," meaning that the Gospel is sent down from God and Muhammad recognized its authority.
  4. In al-Nisa' 4:135: "O believers, believe in God and His Messenger and the Book He has sent down on His Messenger and the Book which He sent down before. Whoso disbelieves in God and His angels and His Books, and His Messengers, and the Last Day, has surely gone astray into far error." It judges the infidelity of the Muslim who does not believe in the Torah and Gospel in the same way that he believes in the Qur'an.
  5. In Saba', 34:30: "The unbelievers say, `We will not believe in this Qur'an, nor in that before it.'" Thus the people of Mecca knew about the Torah and Gospel in the same way they knew the Qur'an.
  6. In al-Qasas 28:49: "Say: `Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than these (the Qur'an and the Bible), and follow it, if you speak truly.'" Clearly Muhammad attests to the accuracy of the Torah and Gospel and their equality with the Qur'an.
  7. In al-Ma'ida 5:47: "Yet how will they make thee their judge seeing they have the Torah, wherein is God's judgement." Here we have a plain admission that the Torah is sound, contains God's decrees and whoever follows it will not need another arbitrator.

The meaning of the foregoing verses is very plain, and they do not require interpretation or explanation.

Do you still hold back from believing in this Book, in spite of these explicit verses, and consider it as irrelevant? How will you excuse yourself on the day of reckoning for disobeying God's commands, when the books will be opened?

 

You have learned from the aforementioned Qur'anic verses that the Book (Torah and Gospel) was quite perfect and reliable in Muhammad's day. Otherwise he would not have testified to it and commanded people to keep its precepts. You have to admit that at one time at least it was correct, free from alteration and forgery.

Read the following verses to see for yourself if such changes could take place, or if humans could alter it in such a manner:

"Recite what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord; no man can change His words" (al-Kahf 18:26).

"No man can change the words of God" (al-An`am 6:34).

"No man can change His words" (al-An`am 6:115).

"There is no changing the words of God" (Yunis 10:65).

"And thou shalt never find any changing the word of God" (al-Fath 48:23).

"A Book Sublime; falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it" (Fussilat 41:42).

"It is We who have sent down the Remembrance, and We watch over it" (al-Hijr 15:9).

From these quotes you will see that NO ONE can change the words of God, because God has sent down a Book and promised to protect it. Should you say that what is meant here by the "Remembrance" is the Qur'an, I would respond that it also means the Torah and Gospel. Witness, for instance, the Qur'anic statement: "Question the People of the Remembrance (the Torah and the Gospel), if you do not know" (Sura al-Anbiya' 21:7). In fact, the Torah itself is referred to as "Qur'an" in the verse: "We gave Moses and Aaron Salvation (al-Furkau) and a Radiance, and a Remembrance for the godfearing..." (Sura al-Anbiya' 21:49).

You say this applies only to the Qur'an; I say, all that applies to the Qur'an applies also to the Torah and the Gospel. For the Torah and Gospel are the words of God and the Qur'an, according to your belief, is the word of God. If you believe that God said in the Qur'an that there is no change, corruption, addition or deletion of his word (as Jalalayn has stated), then how can you say that the Torah and Gospel have been altered in view of all this?

If you allow this possibility, then it would also follow that the Qur'an could have been changed, because what is admissible for the Torah and Gospel is also admissible for the Qur'an. If men are able to alter God's words - the Torah and Gospel - it follows that they would inevitably have been able to alter the Qur'an, as al-Razi has stated. And you do not admit that the Qur'an has been changed. Therefore, you are obliged to agree that altering the Torah and Gospel is an impossibility. You must admit that they are genuine, observe their precepts and adopt them as your guide to Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. As for the alleged corruption referred to by the Qur'an in the Medina Suras, it was with reference to some of the Jews only (with their tongue). The Gospel is free from this accusation. The corruption intended here was in the meaning of certain verses, that is, in their interpretation, since the Jews used to interpret them contrary to Muhammad's wishes. This has been proven by al-Razi and al-Baidawi in their exposition of "corrupted texts". Otherwise, the words of the Qur'an in the Medina Suras would contradict the Meccan Suras.

Doubtless, the Muslims' claim that the Bible has been changed is a charge without proof. Otherwise, where are the texts which have been altered? Which texts are they, what were they originally, and what was the purpose in changing them? If there is no answer to these questions, and it is clear that is so, I ask you: "How does someone dare to make such an allegation? The prudent scholar does not embark on such a scheme without first having something to support his allegation." The Gospel had been translated into Arabic before the appearance of Islam, for the benefit of those Arab tribes who were Christianised, such as: Himyar, Ghassan, Rabiya and the people of Nijran, Heera and others. How else would they have understood Christianity? These facts are corroborated in the book "al-Aghanee" (The Songs), for it relates that Waraka Bin Nawfal (the most famous Arab writer of Muhammad's time) wrote this book, copying in it whatever he desired of the Arabic Gospel. Now, if the Gospel had been subsequently changed, Muslims would have kept the original, to substantiate their case.

If you reject the Bible in it’s entirety, then so be it. My hands are clean and free                                                                             from blood guilt.

 

 



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“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Meditations
Date Posted: 23 September 2009 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by Shibboleth

Long story short, Muslims can choose to reject the historical evidence for the Gospel's fidelity.

Which is ?
So far all what you presented have been answered and proved to be of not much value

Originally posted by Shibboleth

You can choose to reject both the secular and early Church father’s accounts that support the Gospel claims.

What are these accounts, when does it date to ?

It's ironic that you say secular, because how can someone be secular and support the gospel at the same time ?

Originally posted by Shibboleth

You can even choose to reject archaeological findings that confirm the accuracy of the Gospel accounts. .

It is quite surprising that you're using the word 'accuracy' when referring to scriptures that are copies which dates hundreds of years after it's origin, which you don't know who wrote it and what were their agenda 

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Yet, how can you reject your own Qur'anic and Hadithic affirmations of both the Gospel message and its existence in an UNCORRUPTED form during the life of Muhammad?.


What are the hadiths you presented that confirms your claim ?

As for verses, all the one's you suggested so far confirms the existence of the gospel , not it's accuracy at the times of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH )

On the other hand, are you asking us to reject numerous hadith, and verses that explicitly states that

1- People of the book ( jews and christians ) have been altering their books
2- have been hiding parts of their books
3- That God has no son
4- That whoever that says that God has a son is a non-believer
5- That Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) is a prophet from God

Do you want us to reject all this for that sake of your own wishes to understand language as you wish ?


Originally posted by Shibboleth

That’s BLASPHEMY to the 10th POWER!

It is indeed blasphemy if we did what you're suggesting

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Besides, the same standard used by Muslims against the Bible or Gospels needs to be applied to the Qur’an itself. Muslims do not have the original Qur’an—not even an original copy of the Uthmanic codex! That’s the pot calling the kettle BLACK!

Qur'an preservation is not only for the words or letters, but for the performance and pronunciation,  always depended on memorizing by heart
This is what makes Qur'an unique, and what kept it from alteration or change
This is why the Qur'an you hear in USA is the same you hear in Indonesia, is the same you hear in Saudi Arabia

Muslims are the only nation that memorizes their book by heart and read it out loud on daily basis as part of their practices

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Unlike the Qur’an, variant copies of the Gospels were not burned, so the original text can be reconstructed in its entirety as shown.

What was shown that you have no direct reference to Moses or Jesus ( PBUH ) to the scriptures that you assume constructs the bible

[QUOTE=Shibboleth]But, burning your own ‘revelations’ sounds suspect to me. Why burn your own revelations unless its source is not divine, or its verses are Satanic and therefore prone to human error.


What you're saying might have had a point if muslims burned out the Qur'an and said, let's forget about it and write another book
Qur'an has always been memorized by heart, writing is a mere reference to the original

Did you ever hear the term " They read a book that doesn't get wet by water"  ?

If all the current copies of the Qur'an were to disappear, it wouldn't harm muslims in anyway, because we know exactly each and every letter, not only that, how it's to pronounced, and where to stop and where to not stop

No other text have ever had this care or preservation

Regards



Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 24 September 2009 at 11:48am
All of these deep philosophical ponderings cut and pasted from who knows where, and yet you have not bothered to answer my very simple inquiry. So I will post it again:
 
Shibboleth:
 
Please answer me from the Bible, which was created first man or beast? Adam or Eve or were they created together?
 
Perhaps you can tell me which is the true uncorrupted account?
 
Genesis 1:24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

 25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

OR
 
Genesis 2: 7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

 19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

 20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

 21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

 22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man

Shibboleth: "You can even choose to reject archaeological findings that confirm the accuracy of the Gospel accounts. ."
 
I fail to see how an account of something can be deemed accurate if there is more than one account and they are conflicting.
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shibboleth
Date Posted: 24 September 2009 at 5:50pm

Ok. Your denials are serious then I thought even though YOUR holy book says otherwise so let me just do this;

The Qumran Library

The SCROLLS and SCROLL fragments recovered in the Qumran environs represent a voluminous body of Jewish documents, a veritable "library", dating from the T H I R D century B.C.E. TO 68 C.E.

 

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html - http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

 

A discovery of a group of manuscripts which were a thousand years older than the then-oldest-known http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/hebrewlanguage.html - Hebrew texts of the http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/bible.html - Bible (manuscripts, many of which were written more than 100 years BEFORE the birth of Jesus.


http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a023.html - http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a023.html

 

Whether YOU trust the Bible or NOT is not between you and I but between you and your maker. If you believe that God can preserve the Quran yet not the Bible, your faith is more deficient then you can ever imagine.

 

But, no matter how widely this view may be held in the Muslim world that God is unable to preserve his HOLY word, there is still no evidence of any nature whatsoever to support that it’s corrupt.

 

1) Again, where are the facts to support your allegations and myths?

 

2) If the Old and New Testaments were subsequently changed, where is the ORIGINAL to substantiate your case?

 

Since day one, no one has presented ANYTHING in writing! That Is what WE call in the court of law ALLAGATIONS!

 

Far as what came first the man or the beast, Adam or Eve depends on whether you can prove that it’s corrupted, if you can’t, which NO ONE HAS YET DONE, it’s that simple. You, as well as the BILLIONS of Bibles available are UNCORRUPTED. Now, understanding its meaning or interpretation of different scriptures as you posted REGARDING Geneses is a completely different subject. My advice to you is to post a new topic, I would gladly answer it, maybe this is where we misunderstand each other.

 

 

 

 

 

 



-------------
“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


Posted By: Meditations
Date Posted: 25 September 2009 at 2:14am
Dear Shibboleth

Even though I will answer you, you have to note few points
1- The topic is if the bible is still the word of God, it's not about if the Qur'an confirms the bible or not, if you want to discuss this, open a new topic
2- If the bible is still the word of God as you claim, you have to prove it to anyone, not just muslims, so using the Qur'an as evidence ( even though it is not an evidence ) helps you not with non-muslims
3- So far all the historical evidence you provided were proven to be in valid by members who replied to you, so please come with something new instead of repeating yourself

4- you need to decide for yourself if you think Qur'an is a book from God or not, if you believe it is , then you need to believe in all of it's messages, not a selective one, if you don't believe in it, then how are you asking for confirmation from a book you believe to be false ?


Originally posted by Shibboleth

Again, here is my proof in the Quran to the “Modern Day” Muslim of the 21st century!

But be it fragments, tablets, canon, skin, camel, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, you still have not one shred of evidence of the Bible to be corrupted, just myths, denial and accusations. Can’t you just cut and paste to prove what was uncorrupted is now corrupted? You should be able to present at least 1, 2 or even 3 texts out of the Bible that was UNCORRUPTED but now it is CORRUPTED as we have it today. That is the basis of these posts!  

Surely you can do that! Prove your ALLAGATIONS with FACTS or call it quits!


Originally posted by Shibboleth

  1. In the Qur'an, Al Imran 3:2, we read these words: "He sent down the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, as guidance to the people." God sent down the Torah and the Gospel for the guidance of mankind.


you probably mean verse 3, since verse 2 is about totally different thing
that said, It's not
debated, as stated before, that any revelation from God hold guidance, the debate is whether it's still in it's revealed form or not

Originally posted by Shibboleth


  • In al-Ma'ida 5:72: "Say: `People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you perform the Torah and the Gospel.'" This shows that the Torah and Gospel are reliable, otherwise Muhammad would not attest to them.


  • Are you sure of your srouces? Al Ma'ida 72 reads totally differently :
    [Yusufali 5:72] They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.


    Originally posted by Shibboleth


  • Also in al-Ma'ida 5:51: "So let the People of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein," meaning that the Gospel is sent down from God and Muhammad recognized its authority.


  • I really think you should check where you get this from, Al Maida 51 reads :  O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies; they are allies one to another; and whoever amongst you takes them as allies, then surely he i of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

    Originally posted by Shibboleth


  • In al-Nisa' 4:135: "O believers, believe in God and His Messenger and the Book He has sent down on His Messenger and the Book which He sent down before. Whoso disbelieves in God and His angels and His Books, and His Messengers, and the Last Day, has surely gone astray into far error." It judges the infidelity of the Muslim who does not believe in the Torah and Gospel in the same way that he believes in the Qur'an.


  • Another wrong verse ?
    [4:135] O you who believe! be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness of Allah's sake, though it may be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives; if he be rich or poor, Allah is nearer to them both in compassion; therefore do not follow (your) low desires, lest you deviate; and if you swerve or turn aside, then surely Allah is aware of what you do.

    Originally posted by Shibboleth


  • In Saba', 34:30: "The unbelievers say, `We will not believe in this Qur'an, nor in that before it.'" Thus the people of Mecca knew about the Torah and Gospel in the same way they knew the Qur'an.


  • Again a wrong verse !


    Originally posted by Shibboleth


  • In al-Qasas 28:49: "Say: `Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than these (the Qur'an and the Bible), and follow it, if you speak truly.'" Clearly Muhammad attests to the accuracy of the Torah and Gospel and their equality with the Qur'an.


  • As mentioned before, Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) confirmed the Taw'rah and Injeel, and was sent by the Qur'an as a guardian over both

    Originally posted by Shibboleth


  • In al-Ma'ida 5:47: "Yet how will they make thee their judge seeing they have the Torah, wherein is God's judgement." Here we have a plain admission that the Torah is sound, contains God's decrees and whoever follows it will not need another arbitrator.


  • Another wrong verse
    [Shakir 5:47]
    And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.


    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    The meaning of the foregoing verses is very plain, and they do not require interpretation or explanation.

    Do you still hold back from believing in this Book, in spite of these explicit verses, and consider it as irrelevant? How will you excuse yourself on the day of reckoning for disobeying God's commands, when the books will be opened?

    You have learned from the aforementioned Qur'anic verses that the Book (Torah and Gospel) was quite perfect and reliable in Muhammad's day. Otherwise he would not have testified to it and commanded people to keep its precepts.

    The 7 verses posted confirms the revelation of the Taw'rah and Injeel, it doesn't confirm that it was 'uncorrupted' at the times of the Prophet ( PBUH )

    If you read the verses you mentioned, within the context, and with several other verses that speaks about how these books were altered you will know the above statement is false

    أَفَتَطْمَعُونَ أَن يُؤْمِنُواْ لَكُمْ وَقَدْ كَانَ فَرِيقٌ مِّنْهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ كَلاَمَ اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُحَرِّفُونَهُ مِن بَعْدِ مَا عَقَلُوهُ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ {2:75}
    [Pickthal 2:75] Have ye any hope that they will be true to you when a party of them used to listen to the word of Allah, then used to change it, after they had understood it, knowingly?

    مِّنَ الَّذِينَ هَادُواْ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَن مَّوَاضِعِهِ وَيَقُولُونَ سَمِعْنَا وَعَصَيْنَا وَاسْمَعْ غَيْرَ مُسْمَعٍ وَرَاعِنَا لَيًّا بِأَلْسِنَتِهِمْ وَطَعْنًا فِي الدِّينِ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ قَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا وَاسْمَعْ وَانظُرْنَا لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَّهُمْ وَأَقْوَمَ وَلَكِن لَّعَنَهُمُ اللّهُ بِكُفْرِهِمْ فَلاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً {46}
    [Shakir 4:46] Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.

    يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ لاَ يَحْزُنكَ الَّذِينَ يُسَارِعُونَ فِي الْكُفْرِ مِنَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ آمَنَّا بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَلَمْ تُؤْمِن قُلُوبُهُمْ وَمِنَ الَّذِينَ هِادُواْ سَمَّاعُونَ لِلْكَذِبِ سَمَّاعُونَ لِقَوْمٍ آخَرِينَ لَمْ يَأْتُوكَ يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ مِن بَعْدِ مَوَاضِعِهِ يَقُولُونَ إِنْ أُوتِيتُمْ هَـذَا فَخُذُوهُ وَإِن لَّمْ تُؤْتَوْهُ فَاحْذَرُواْ وَمَن يُرِدِ اللّهُ فِتْنَتَهُ فَلَن تَمْلِكَ لَهُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئًا أُوْلَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يُرِدِ اللّهُ أَن يُطَهِّرَ قُلُوبَهُمْ لَهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيَا خِزْيٌ وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ {41}
    [Shakir 5:41] O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.

    وَمَا قَدَرُواْ اللّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ إِذْ قَالُواْ مَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ عَلَى بَشَرٍ مِّن شَيْءٍ قُلْ مَنْ أَنزَلَ الْكِتَابَ الَّذِي جَاء بِهِ مُوسَى نُورًا وَهُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ تَجْعَلُونَهُ قَرَاطِيسَ تُبْدُونَهَا وَتُخْفُونَ كَثِيراً وَعُلِّمْتُم مَّا لَمْ تَعْلَمُواْ أَنتُمْ وَلاَ آبَاؤُكُمْ قُلِ اللّهُ ثُمَّ ذَرْهُمْ فِي خَوْضِهِمْ يَلْعَبُونَ {91}
    [Pickthal 6:91] And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught revealed unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling.

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    You have to admit that at one time at least it was correct, free from alteration and forgery.

    Ofcourse at one point it was, but that's not what we're discussing, is it ?
    What matters is if it is genuine or not still , which is proved to be not

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Read the following verses to see for yourself if such changes could take place, or if humans could alter it in such a manner:

    "Recite what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord; no man can change His words" (al-Kahf 18:26).

    "No man can change the words of God" (al-An`am 6:34).

    "No man can change His words" (al-An`am 6:115).

    "There is no changing the words of God" (Yunis 10:65).

    "And thou shalt never find any changing the word of God" (al-Fath 48:23).

    "A Book Sublime; falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it" (Fussilat 41:42).

    "It is We who have sent down the Remembrance, and We watch over it" (al-Hijr 15:9).

    From these quotes you will see that NO ONE can change the words of God, because God has sent down a Book and promised to protect it. Should you say that what is meant here by the "Remembrance" is the Qur'an, I would respond that it also means the Torah and Gospel. Witness, for instance, the Qur'anic statement: "Question the People of the Remembrance (the Torah and the Gospel), if you do not know" (Sura al-Anbiya' 21:7).

    In fact, the Torah itself is referred to as "Qur'an" in the verse: "We gave Moses and Aaron Salvation (al-Furkau) and a Radiance, and a Remembrance for the godfearing..." (Sura al-Anbiya' 21:49).[/QUOTE]

    Again where are you getting these translations from ? you're inserting into the verses what's not in it

    Please refere us to the translation you're taking it from, or post in arabic if you know arabic

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    You say this applies only to the Qur'an; I say, all that applies to the Qur'an applies also to the Torah and the Gospel. For the Torah and Gospel are the words of God and the Qur'an, according to your belief, is the word of God. If you believe that God said in the Qur'an that there is no change, corruption, addition or deletion of his word (as Jalalayn has stated)

    If you go back to the Jalalayn you're referring, you'll see that it refers to Qur'an, and that it refers to the alteration of the Taw'rah and Injeel as well

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    then how can you say that the Torah and Gospel have been altered in view of all this?

    Because of two things

    1- Qur'an confirmation of the alteration ( as mentioned above )

    2- Scientific / historic / current time prove that what we have today can not be the 'same' as what was revealed to Moses and Jesus ( PBUT )


    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    If you allow this possibility, then it would also follow that the Qur'an could have been changed, because what is admissible for the Torah and Gospel is also admissible for the Qur'an. If men are able to alter God's words - the Torah and Gospel - it follows that they would inevitably have been able to alter the Qur'an, as al-Razi has stated. And you do not admit that the Qur'an has been changed. Therefore, you are obliged to agree that altering the Torah and Gospel is an impossibility. You must admit that they are genuine, observe their precepts and adopt them as your guide to Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

    I'm not sure where you get these analogies from, or if you learnt logical thinking, but for the sake of arguing

    The Qur'an validity is not proven only from the Qur'an confirmation of it, or form Islamic view

    It's proven by facts, the simplest one is that after around 1400 there's still only one Qur'an , no versions, no 'new editions'


    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    As for the alleged corruption referred to by the Qur'an in the Medina Suras, it was with reference to some of the Jews only (with their tongue). The Gospel is free from this accusation. The corruption intended here was in the meaning of certain verses, that is, in their interpretation, since the Jews used to interpret them contrary to Muhammad's wishes.

    Now it's getting interesting, so you confirm the alteration of the Taw'rah but not the Injeel ?

    If you do so , this will mean the bible is altered, since it's the old and new testament together, right ?

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    This has been proven by al-Razi and al-Baidawi in their exposition of "corrupted texts".

    Several times you have been requested to provide reference to what you claim on the account of muslims scholars

    Still waiting for references to your claim about the list of scholars you mentioned who rejected the bible alteration, or was this list copied/pasted from somewhere ?

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Otherwise, the words of the Qur'an in the Medina Suras would contradict the Meccan Suras.

    Do you know which of what you posted was revealed in Makka and which in Madina to say such statement? 

    the first 7 you posted are Al Imran, Al Ma'ida, Al-Nisa'a, are Madany, while Saba'a and Al Qasas are Makky , so now that you know which is which, what's your point ?

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Doubtless, the Muslims' claim that the Bible has been changed is a charge without proof.

    Note that not only muslims claim this, many christians support this view as well, hence why many of them end up converting to Islam


    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Otherwise, where are the texts which have been altered? Which texts are they, what were they originally, and what was the purpose in changing them?

    If this information existed still, then it wouldn't be altered , would it ?

    The fact that we don't have the original text is the proof on alteration


    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    If there is no answer to these questions, and it is clear that is so, I ask you: "How does someone dare to make such an allegation? The prudent scholar does not embark on such a scheme without first having something to support his allegation."


    As said several times, it is you who are making a claim ( the bible is the word of God )
    so it's you who should bring proof to your claim

    All what you provided so far have been disputed, so please come up with new evidence

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    The Gospel had been translated into Arabic before the appearance of Islam,

    By whom , when , from which source? Greek, Aramic, Hebrew?

    Please check this post about a many who helped translate it again to Arabic in the 19th century, then converted to Islam after seeing what happens through translation

    forum_posts.asp?TID=15504 - Eyewitness to the alteration of the arabic bible

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    for the benefit of those Arab tribes who were Christianised, such as: Himyar, Ghassan, Rabiya and the people of Nijran, Heera and others. How else would they have understood Christianity?

    It's good that mention these tribes, do you know what happened when the envoy of Nijran went to debate with Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) ?

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    These facts are corroborated in the book "al-Aghanee" (The Songs), for it relates that Waraka Bin Nawfal (the most famous Arab writer of Muhammad's time) wrote this book, copying in it whatever he desired of the Arabic Gospel. Now, if the Gospel had been subsequently changed, Muslims would have kept the original, to substantiate their case.

    First of all, who wrote this book, what's your reference in it to Waraka ? you have a bad record of referring to sources / verses / translations

    Maybe you can learn of the Islamic methods of authenticating text

    Second, provided this was available to them for copying, why muslims would keep a record of a book whom their own revelation states that it is already altered ?

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    If you reject the Bible in it’s entirety, then so be it.

    This is exactly our main point, we don't reject it in it's entirety, we don't say it didn't exist, we believe it existed, was sent from God, we also believe it was altered

    Our view of it that it's a book that has a mixture of true and false , our view is what Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) guided us to : Don't believe them, and don't say liars ( for they mix truth and false ) , and say we believe in God and what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you

    And God knows best

    Best Regards



    Posted By: Andalus
    Date Posted: 25 September 2009 at 10:53pm
     

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Long story short, Muslims can choose to reject the historical evidence for the Gospel's fidelity. You can choose to reject both the secular and early Church father’s accounts that support the Gospel claims. You can even choose to reject archaeological findings that confirm the accuracy of the Gospel accounts. Yet, how can you reject your own Qur'anic and Hadithic affirmations of both the Gospel message and its existence in an UNCORRUPTED form during the life of Muhammad? That’s BLASPHEMY to the

    10th POWER!

    We have reviewed the historical evidence provided so far and none of it stands up to your assertions. The historical evidence simply does not mesh with Christian claims and hyperbole. The biggest problem facing your scholars is that you have no way to reconstruct the sources of your earliest MSS, removed by at least 150 years from their actual source.

     

    Please show me how church fathers prove your claims? Maybe I have missed something? Maybe you are sitting on some hidden evidence that the world awaits for?

    The archeological evidence? That is a road you may not want to invoke. If anything, what the archeological evidence does present is a Christian world that was much more diverse and dynamic than what your honest church fathers tried to argue. What archeologists have found is that early Christians were not in consensus about very much. They find a lot of reading went on in the diverse communities; the problem for you is that the books that were commonly read are not the ones found in your NT. The Ebionites had a different version of Matthew, and the gospel of peter was more popular (based upon archeological finds) than the book of Mark. So you may invoke archeology, but it will not help you.

     

    Your continued ranting about how the Quran supports your bible; and you continuously commit the fallacy of equivocation by doing so. It has already been explained to you that what the Quran verifies does not necessarily equate to what you have labeled in your bible as psalms, or gospel, or Torah.  

    As an example, it was your early church doctors who chose your four gospel accounts. These were four stories amongst hundreds of other stories about Jesus. Your doctors had NO methodology in place to discern between authentic accounts vs. doubtful, or weak accounts. So trust me when I say, that the Quran is not confirming what men thought fit their theological ideology. This is what you are arguing. The Quran confirms the four oral accounts amongst hundreds chosen by the proto-orthodox because they represented their theological outlook. Can you see just how foolish and juvenile your approach is. Instead of trolling low tech evangelical sites, feeding your untrained mind on sensationalism and cheap diatribe, why not pick up books, sources, about religion and textual criticism, written by authors that have the same faith as the topic of the book.

    The only true blasphemy taking place is your violation of all known rules of critical thinking.

     

    Besides, the same standard used by Muslims against the Bible or Gospels needs to be applied to the Qur’an itself. Muslims do not have the original Qur’an—not even an original copy of the Uthmanic codex! That’s the pot calling the kettle BLACK!

     

    Once again the problem here is your poor lack of understanding followed by a poor use of logic.

    1)     I have used information from your own authors when it comes to your bible. They are trained scholars from Christian divinity schools, and leading researchers,

    2)     The methods they use for textual criticism are highly developed rules that have been created on the bases of the history and development of your scriptures. Their transmission and development are unique and influenced on language, region, and culture.

    3)     You are now claiming that I am wrong for bringing up issues raised by your own scholars, because we should apply the same rules to the Quran (in essence, you are saying that we are guilty of the fallacy of special pleading).

    To try and apply the same methods of textual criticism to the Quran would be fallacious given that the transmission and development are in a completely different paradigm. The language, culture, nature of the revelation, and its preservation have nothing in common with the western tradition that you have taken your knowledge from.

    Keep in mind that you are off topic any way, and after this contribution, I expect any topic of this matter to be in an appropriate thread. With that said, I can say with confidence that I have a copy of the Quran that is authorized by the Prophet (saw), and the hundreds of first hand witnesses to its revelation and to its compilation into a complete book form.

    1)     The linguistic style and form of the language used in the Quran is such that it aids in the facilitation of memorization. This is one of the intentions o for the use of its prose, style, and language. The memorization factor is one of the parameters of its preservation and transmission. It is a “checks and balances” for anyone who ever tries to alter its text.

    2)     The Quran was revealed over time, preserved a) in written form, b) memorization.

     

    Unlike the Qur’an, variant copies of the Gospels were not burned, so the original text can be reconstructed in its entirety as shown. But, burning your own ‘revelations’ sounds suspect to me. Why burn your own revelations unless its source is not divine, or its verses are Satanic and therefore prone to human error.

    Again you are trying to mix apples and oranges. Your response about variant MSS is a “protestant mantra” that was part of a famous apologetic response to a scholar by the name of Mills who is credited as the first to show the Christian world that the bible they so often felt secure with as the word of God, was based upon MSS with hundreds and hundreds of variants. The response was that the variants MSS were a good thing and they did not change any core theology and could be used to get a stronger bible (in a nut shell). Poppycock!

    The reason you have soooo many variant MSS is due to the poor method of preservation and transmission, the absence of any methodology to preserve and transmit the text, the lack of professional scribes to make the copies, and the large number of copeteing sects each fighting to be the official reps of Jesus. For the last point, this is proven in B. Ehrman’s Orthodox The Corruption of Scripture in which he shows at least a hundred examples of the proto-orthodox (the group you have inherited most of your tradition) and their competitors (they are written in history as the heretics) were all too willing to tamper with the MSS as a way to show their theology was the correct one.

    So the reason for your variant MSS is not a good thing, it is the result of poor transmission. You are also wrong in that you cannot construct an original text from your variants because in many passages there is no way to actually decide what the passage should be. How would you pick when all of the variants give you ambiguity? There is no “key” from which to guide the decision. This is called “speculation”. Another reason you cannot create an original document is that your eaeliest copies are at least 150 years removed from their original dating. You have no idea what the copies after your earliest original look like.

    If you had an “original” version, one agreed upon personally by the first hand witnesses of Jesus, his actual followers, you would have no use for variants, in fact, they would have only some historical value to show how some groups might have moved away from the thoughts of the first hand witnesses of Jesus. With this in mind, can you see just how absurd and irrational your view is, that Muslims should have a tradition of variant MSS to have a more accurate Quran? This is such an idiotic statement, I do not believe you really and truly understand the depth of the topic. We do not have variants because the first hand followers of Prophet Muhammad (saw) preserved the Quran and to halt any progression of faulty variants, as part of a methodology for the preservation and transmission of the Quran, through a form of committee made up of those who had the Quran memorized, made sure an authorized text was used to make all other written Qurans. Our Sahaba did what none of your followers were ever able to do for the past 2000 years. And after nearly 2000 years, you scholars have finally attempted to resolve what Muslims took care of from the beginning.

       

    Your source (Deedat) suggests, on page 14 of his booklet that if a Muslim should ever hand his publication to a missionary or Jehovah's Witness and request a written reply, he will never see them again - let alone ever get a reply. Here’s your CHANCE!

    Note from Moderation: Some of the contribution was erased. Please try and reply within the context of the subject matter of the thread. Responding with topics that are being discussed in existing threads or topics not relavent to the thread should be avoided.

     

    Maybe the admin will allow me to post a response to your message.

    I have personally found that JWs are in the bottom of the totem pole in terms of scholarly merit. Your group really has no scholarly foundation; your group has never produced a single serious scholar or made any serious contributions to Christendom as a whole. The founding thesis is intellectually bankrupt, and I find that its followers are “gullible”. Your approach here has been a prime example as you try to regurgitate your way through discourse. When your bad information is challenged, you simply slip back into JW mode and blather about God’s name, and Deut 18, etc, etc.

    God help you.



    -------------
    A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
    http://www.sunnipath.com
    http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
    http://www.pt-go.com/


    Posted By: Meditations
    Date Posted: 26 September 2009 at 12:54am
    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Ok. Your denials are serious then I thought even though YOUR holy book says otherwise so let me just do this;

    The Qumran Library

    The SCROLLS and SCROLL fragments recovered in the Qumran environs represent a voluminous body of Jewish documents, a veritable "library", dating from the T H I R D century B.C.E. TO 68 C.E.

    http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html - http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

     A discovery of a group of manuscripts which were a thousand years older than the then-oldest-known http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/hebrewlanguage.html - Hebrew texts of the http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/bible.html - Bible (manuscripts, many of which were written more than 100 years BEFORE the birth of Jesus.

    http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a023.html - http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a023.html


    And how long was that AFTER the revelation to Moses ( PBUH ) ? 1000 year ? 2000 years ?

    Do you know who wrote it ? under which conditions ? how accurate were they ?

    It's like us finding some text few hundreds years after Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), and believing that it is Qur'an, without other source of verification
    if a muslim tried this method to authenticate text, we'll probably call him crazy and send him to a hospital

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Whether YOU trust the Bible or NOT is not between you and I but between you and your maker. If you believe that God can preserve the Quran yet not the Bible, your faith is more deficient then you can ever imagine.

     But, no matter how widely this view may be held in the Muslim world that God is unable to preserve his HOLY word,

    I recommend that when you quote the views held in the muslim world, that you quote a view that's actually held in the muslim world, not a view held by you about the how the muslim world views an issue

    No muslim believes that God is able to preserve the Qur'an and not the bible, it is God's action that is to preserve one and not the other

    God is able to preserve the revelations sent to Abraham, but God didn't do so, does this mean God can't do it ? ofcourse not

    If you look at the basics of the muslim faith, and how holy and powerful we believe in God compared to other beliefs that view God as a being that gets tricked, weak, gets beaten / defeated you'll know how wrong your above statement is


    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    there is still no evidence of any nature whatsoever to support that it’s corrupt.

    1) Again, where are the facts to support your allegations and myths?

    Again you're going the wrong direction
    As a christian you claim the bible is the word of God, and that it is the word of God still
    you're asked to prove this
    So far, you provided no proof to this , from history, nor logic
    you tried to present verses from the Qur'an to support your claim which is invalid because

    A: it wouldn't help you proving this to someone who doesn't believe in the Qur'an
    B: the nation whom the Qur'an is their faith understand the verses different that you do, so you're trying to use something you don't believe in ( or do you ? ) in a way which it's people don't believe in, to prove something you believe in
    , this doesn't make sense in common sense

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    2) If the Old and New Testaments were subsequently changed, where is the ORIGINAL to substantiate your case?

    Since day one, no one has presented ANYTHING in writing! That Is what WE call in the court of law ALLAGATIONS!

    Again you're trying to use your problem as a solution
    your problem in your claim is that there's no original, there're only copies

    copies that are different from each
    copies that are translated from different soruces
    copies which sources are not directly linked to it's origin

    So , please try another analogy, this doesn't work

     


    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Far as what came first the man or the beast, Adam or Eve depends on whether you can prove that it’s corrupted,

    You mean that contradicting itself in a way that can't be resolved isn't a prove ?

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    if you can’t, which NO ONE HAS YET DONE, it’s that simple. You, as well as the BILLIONS of Bibles available are UNCORRUPTED.

    Let's see

    The english has so many different versions
    The arabic, has been eywitnessed to be corrupted even in modern time
    The greek has no direct link to it's origin
    God knows about other languages

    and you still think it's genuine ?

    I would say your tolerance level in accepting something you trust your life with is very high

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Now, understanding its meaning or interpretation of different scriptures as you posted REGARDING Geneses is a completely different subject. My advice to you is to post a new topic, I would gladly answer it,


    How about you do so, try to resolve the contradiction, it'd be interesting reading what you'd say

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    maybe this is where we misunderstand each other.

    I know for me there's no misunderstanding with the christian faith, but I'll let you know where I have a problem with you

    you don't answer many questions you're being asked in several posts, while every question you ask is being asked
    you post claims about muslims that you don't provide reference to
    you post strange translations for verses, or at times post a verse number but a totally different verse

    If you post in an appropriate manner, I can respect you even if we have different faiths, but what you're doing doesn't speak well for your debating skills, or your faith

    Regards



    Posted By: Shibboleth
    Date Posted: 26 September 2009 at 1:34pm

    The fact of the matter is Muslims in general do not understand the Christian faith not just you which is irrelevant because Muhammad himself didn’t understand. On the other hand, you nor anyone has not shown proof that the Bible is corrupted, all I’m asking anyone is to show me proof and you can’t do that, just ALLAGATIONS!

     

    Show me an UNCORRUPTED Bible book, a text or something. Show me something that once was AND now it’s not, a verse, a scripture. You saying this so called scholar were once a Christian and now he’s not is your best PROOF? That would have been my last proof that’s why I haven’t used it. Is it that Christians only have fragments of the Bible, that’s your defense? Does those “fragments” show the Bible to be corrupt? How about WHOLE scrolls from different Bible writers that they did find, did those show the Bible to be corrupt? You can’t even show me what book or versus was corrupt, NOTHING just what so-and-so said! You know why you can’t? What book would you use to compare it to, that would show the corruptions? Oh, I know your book, a book that came centuries later out of the blue. At least the Torah and the Psalms for told the Gospel and NT and SAID their would be no other Holy book after it. Not the for telling of the quran and all these  other uninspired books that came after it.

     

    I guess the little fragments that haven’t shown up yet, talks about the Quran and the Prophet? How convenient, Muslims can pick Deuteronomy 18:18, John 14:16; 15:26; and 16:7. You can accept these different translations but you can’t present one as you say is UNCORRUPTED.

     

    If YOU can’t accept God inspired writings of the Holy Bible as the UNCORRUPTED version as many ancient Mohammedans did and as some modern “Muslims” today, so be it.



    -------------
    “If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


    Posted By: Andalus
    Date Posted: 26 September 2009 at 6:25pm

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    The fact of the matter is Muslims in general do not understand the Christian faith not just you which is irrelevant because Muhammad himself didn’t understand. On the other hand, you nor anyone has not shown proof that the Bible is corrupted, all I’m asking anyone is to show me proof and you can’t do that, just ALLAGATIONS!

    You are deflecting from the topic. So far you have not directly addressed any point I have given you. You simply respond with a rant or diatribe at best. I noticed you have made another thread and have inserted claims that I have alread replied to you about. Is this how you roll? You make a claim. Some replies, you respond with useless diatribe and irelevant accusations, and then begin a new topic with the same recycled material?

     

    What part of Christian faith do I not understand and where did I comment about it?

     

    I have given you HARD FACTS that you book is corrupted. You have chosen to to your thumbs in your eyes and ramble. Did you not read ANYTHING I presented to you? Are you illiterate? Are you so ignorant that you are unable to comprehend the topic? Are you just stiff necked with your undying loyalty to your God's name cult to see straight? I did not give you Allagations, I gave you facts, from your own scholars. I closed down your claim to have any claim what so ever on any accuracy of your NT. You cannot even begin to say that your NT has not corruption. If you understood the basic principles of critical thinking, you would recognize that the argument I presented nips your claim from the beginning. It proves that you cannot claim with any confidence any accuracy of your bible. This is the POINT.

     

     

     

    Show me an UNCORRUPTED Bible book, a text or something.

     

    Someone put you out of intellectual misery.

    1) If there was an uncorrupted bible book, then you would have

    a) varification of its authenticity, b) a MS witness that is based upon a source witness (something that was actually transmitted from origin), or a bible book that is an original document from the source

    2) This is a fallacious statement. Not having an uncorrupted book does not prove that your bible is not corrupted. Non-sequitur.

    3) If you had such a book, then this thread would not exist and you would have no need for mass variant MSS to reconstruct a mid second cenutry NT, 150  years removed from the source with 150 year break in transmission.

     

     

    Show me something that once was AND now it’s not, a verse, a scripture. You saying this so called scholar were once a Christian and now he’s not is your best PROOF?

     

    Bruce Metzger is still a Christian, and a devout one. So are many others. B Ehrman's work is not disputed by other schlarors, his presentation is not new and has been taught at divinity schools for decades, what some of his peers do challenge him on is the actual outcome on Christianity concerning his work. By the way, this so called scholar is a highly ranked scholar and was a student of Bruce Metzger, and it was not the problems with corruption that challenged B Ehrman, it was his inablity to reconcile the theological presentation of God in the bible. But your “genetic fallacy” is taking us off topic.

     

    And no, he is not the best proof, his, and his peers work is. The fact that you have no clue as to what transpired for 150 years between your incomplete earliest sources and the source is a proof which nails the coffin on your claim to knowing that your NT is accurate. That is the point. No one is able to reconstruct an original bible. Not even close.

     

    This alone shuts down your claim. With this in mind, we can find corruption in your NT that is well documented. This is a fact. I even pointed out a major blunder from the evidence you presented! None of the early sources has the adultress story in them. This is a later insertion. That is corruption. Thank you for giving us that example from the link you provided.

     

    Would you be satisfied with verse examples of corruption? Will you at least admit that you cannot say with any confidence that your NT is accurate? Or NOT corrupted? In light of the facts I gave you, can you admit this?

     

     

     

     

    That would have been my last proof that’s why I haven’t used it.

     

    B Erman’s work? Bruce Metzger?????

     

    Is it that Christians only have fragments of the Bible, that’s your defense? Does those “fragments” show the Bible to be corrupt?

     

    No, that was your defense. You appealed to a website that appealed to these fragments. They boasted about the billions and billions of ancient MSS. I just pointed out that after you clear away the Christian exaggeration and sensationalism, you are left with small scraps that are very incomplete in terms of telling us anything about the books they are from.

     

     

    Let’s look at your beloved DSS.

     

     

    From Jeremiah

     

    Behold, the days come, saith Yahweh, that I will perform that good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and concerning the house of Judah. In those days, and at that time, will I cause a Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name whereby she shall be called: Yahweh our righteousness. For thus saith Yahweh: David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to burn meal-offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

    And the word of Yahweh came unto Jeremiah, saying, Thus saith yahweh: If ye can break my covenant of the day, and my covenant of the night, so that there shall not be day and night in their season; then may also my covenant be broken with David my servant, that he shall not have a son to reign upon his throne; and with the Levites the priests, my ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured; so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

    And the word of Yahweh came to Jeremiah, saying, Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, The two families which Yahweh did choose, he hath cast them off? thus do they despise my people, that they should be no more a nation before them. Thus saith Yahweh: If my covenant of day and night stand not, if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth; then will I also cast away the seed of Jacob, and of David my servant, so that I will not take of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and will have mercy on them, (33:14-26, ASV with Yahweh substituted for Jehovah).

    Now, lets invoke the DSS, these passages are ABSENT from the book of Jeremiah found in the DSS. In fact, it is absent from the Septuagint as well. It is only found in the Masoretic text. What does this prove? This proves without doubt that unless you can cough up a Masoretic scroll pre 200 BCE,  that there has been a re-working to the OT post late second temple. Oops. A re-working? So did God’s word change such that the older septuagint was not good enough so that a scribe was allowed to insert more passages? Well sporto, here is an example that I dug up from my small library just for you. Now lets watch you squirm and try and wiggle your way out of this.

     

     

     

     How about WHOLE scrolls from different Bible writers that they did find, did those show the Bible to be corrupt?

     

     

    What scroll?

     

     

    You can’t even show me what book or versus was corrupt, NOTHING just what so-and-so said! You know why you can’t? What book would you use to compare it to, that would show the corruptions?

     

    I just gave you another example. The first one was the omission of the adulteress story from your earliest MSS. Now I have gave you a second one. Will this pacify your complaining?

     

     

     

    Oh, I know your book, a book that came centuries later out of the blue. At least the Torah and the Psalms for told the Gospel and NT and SAID their would be no other Holy book after it. Not the for telling of the quran and all these other uninspired books that came after it.

     

    You are frustrated. Your rants are becoming less coherent.  You are trying to appeal to an argumentum ad antiquitatem fallacy (older must necessarily be better). It would be as if someone who still followed the Noachide laws to tell Moses that his scriptures were crap because God already gave something to Noah.

     And I would like to point out that no where in the Septuagint or Masoretic does it foretell of the gospel. Only fallacious, LABORED interpretations by your doctors can provide any hope.

    Unlike your faith which demands validation and relies on finding validation from the OT for its very existence, Islam stands on its own in terms of theology. We require no irrational, long winded labored interpretations for validation of our existence.

     

    I guess the little fragments that haven’t shown up yet, talks about the Quran and the Prophet? How convenient, Muslims can pick Deuteronomy 18:18, John 14:16; 15:26; and 16:7. You can accept these different translations but you can’t present one as you say is UNCORRUPTED.

     

    If YOU can’t accept God inspired writings of the Holy Bible as the UNCORRUPTED version as many ancient Mohammedans did and as some modern “Muslims” today, so be it.

    Now you are just blathering. You have been answered. Nothing will help you.

     



    -------------
    A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
    http://www.sunnipath.com
    http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
    http://www.pt-go.com/


    Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
    Date Posted: 26 September 2009 at 8:21pm

     



    -------------
    “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    Posted By: Shibboleth
    Date Posted: 28 September 2009 at 9:38pm

    I know you hate to admit it but this is proof! Even the Septuagint provides strong evidence that Jesus and his first-century disciples ALSO knew and used God’s name (Hebrew; YHWH, Yahweh English Jehovah)

     

    Furthermore, the authenticity of Jeremiah is accepted in the Hebrew canon first and for most and is part of the Septuagint. And although some scholars agree that the Greek translation of this book is less strong, that does not lessen the reliability of the book as you’re suggesting. The fulfillment of the prophecies recorded by Jeremiah strongly testifies to the book’s authenticity.  

     

    PROPHECIES RECORDED BY JEREMIAH (UNDENIABLE)

    Ones That He Saw Fulfilled

    The captivity of Zedekiah and destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (Jer 20:3-6; 21:3-10; 39:6-9)

      The dethronement and death in captivity of King Shallum (Jehoahaz) (Jer 22:11, 12; 2Ki 23:30-34; 2Ch 36:1-4)

        The death, within one year, of the false prophet Hananiah (Jer 28:16, 17)

      Others Concerning Which History Records Fulfillment (UNDENIABLE)

      Egypt invaded, conquered by Nebuchadrezzar (Nebuchadnezzar) (Jer 43:8-13; 46:13-26)

      The return of the Jews and rebuilding of the temple and the city after 70 years’ desolation (Jer 24:1-7; 25:11, 12; 29:10; 30:11, 18, 19; compare 2Ch 36:20, 21; Ezr 1:1; Da 9:2.)

        Babylon to become a permanent desolation (Jer 25:12-14; 50:35, 38-40)

    Those Having Significant Spiritual Fulfillment, as Indicated in the Christian Greek Scriptures (UNDENIABLE)

      David’s house not to lack a man on the throne of the kingdom forever (Jer 33:17-21; Lu 1:32, 33)

    The apostle Matthew pointed to a fulfillment of one of Jeremiah’s prophecies in the days of Jesus’ young childhood. (Mt 2:17, 18; Jer 31:15)

     

    A GREAT Prophet indeed! You focusing and looking at variations in translation from Hebrew to Greek in the face of historical and scriptural evidence of prophecy is a far cry that this Book is corrupted, try a better approach.  

     

    "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth,
    confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety."
     (Yusufali's translation)
    "And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, 
    confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it
    ."
    (Pickthal's translation)

     

    Here you stand at the crossroads again, which path will you TAKE? The Qur'an states that Allah has guarded, watched over, and preserved  the Scriptures that were written before the Qur'an, you continue to make claims that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are corrupted. Logically, from a Muslim's perspective I gather, it follows that Allah has failed to guard His own Holy Word. This is so surprising, since the Qur'an clearly states the opposite. 

    I am NOW convinced that you and those who follow this course are a kafir and truly believe that Allah's word can be altered and changed!

    For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity. Sura Yunus 10:64 (Yusuf Ali's translation)

    ...

     



    -------------
    “If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


    Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
    Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 9:18am
    Muslims do not understand Christian Faith,I to use to follow the Christian faith.And I to am the only Muslim in my family besides my wife and children,I believe that I understand The Christians Faith more better know since I embraced Islam.Anyway IS THE BIBLE STILL THE WORD OF GOD?I Think that depends on who ever has faith in believing that it is.Proof of an uncorrupted Bible Book maybe there are none left.Proof of a corrupted Bible Book.ESTHER the whole chapter which is a book as you Christians claim right? no mention of God, only Kings, Queens,Jews and Drinking. What is it's relavence?


    Posted By: Andalus
    Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 6:26pm
     
     
     
     
    Furthermore, the authenticity of Jeremiah is accepted in the Hebrew canon first and for most and is part of the Septuagint. And although some scholars agree that the Greek translation of this book is less strong, that does not lessen the reliability of the book as you’re suggesting. The fulfillment of the prophecies recorded by Jeremiah strongly testifies to the book’s authenticity.
     

     
    More irrelevant drivel. You asked for proof, I gave you two examples. What you just wrote makes no sense.
    1) I gave you passages from one book (septuagint and DSS) not found in the other book (masoretic)
    2) Which book is correct? You do not know. They both cannot be correct.
    Hence we have an example of "corruption".
    You cannot admit this because your mind is too devoted to your cult.
     
     
     


    -------------
    A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
    http://www.sunnipath.com
    http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
    http://www.pt-go.com/


    Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
    Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 7:15pm
    Originally posted by Shibboleth


    [/QUOTE


    Calm down there,First of all you have
    Calm down there,First of all you have the wrong understanding of this Ayat read it again and you will see that it is talking about the Qur'an has been gaurded and The Qur'an confirms the book that came before it, The Truth about the books that came before it, No matter how many times you repeat yourself you still will be wrongBy the way you are too funny calling us the kafurs lol.


    Posted By: Meditations
    Date Posted: 29 September 2009 at 10:23pm
    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    I know you hate to admit it but this is proof! Even the Septuagint provides strong evidence that Jesus and his first-century disciples ALSO knew and used God’s name (Hebrew; YHWH, Yahweh English Jehovah)



    So ? what can be concluded from this with regards to the topic ?

     

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Furthermore, the authenticity of Jeremiah is accepted in the Hebrew canon first and for most and is part of the Septuagint. And although some scholars agree that the Greek translation of this book is less strong, that does not lessen the reliability of the book as you’re suggesting. The fulfillment of the prophecies recorded by Jeremiah strongly testifies to the book’s authenticity. 

    PROPHECIES RECORDED BY JEREMIAH (UNDENIABLE)

    Ones That He Saw Fulfilled

    The captivity of Zedekiah and destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon (Jer 20:3-6; 21:3-10; 39:6-9)

      The dethronement and death in captivity of King Shallum (Jehoahaz) (Jer 22:11, 12; 2Ki 23:30-34; 2Ch 36:1-4)

        The death, within one year, of the false prophet Hananiah (Jer 28:16, 17)

      Others Concerning Which History Records Fulfillment (UNDENIABLE)

      Egypt invaded, conquered by Nebuchadrezzar (Nebuchadnezzar) (Jer 43:8-13; 46:13-26)

      The return of the Jews and rebuilding of the temple and the city after 70 years’ desolation (Jer 24:1-7; 25:11, 12; 29:10; 30:11, 18, 19; compare 2Ch 36:20, 21; Ezr 1:1; Da 9:2.)

        Babylon to become a permanent desolation (Jer 25:12-14; 50:35, 38-40)

    Those Having Significant Spiritual Fulfillment, as Indicated in the Christian Greek Scriptures (UNDENIABLE)

      David’s house not to lack a man on the throne of the kingdom forever (Jer 33:17-21; Lu 1:32, 33)

    The apostle Matthew pointed to a fulfillment of one of Jeremiah’s prophecies in the days of Jesus’ young childhood. (Mt 2:17, 18; Jer 31:15)

     

    A GREAT Prophet indeed! You focusing and looking at variations in translation from Hebrew to Greek in the face of historical and scriptural evidence of prophecy is a far cry that this Book is corrupted, try a better approach.  

    This is a very unscientific approach, if you have a book , which parts of it come true, does that mean that everything in the book is authentic ?
    Telling true stories has nothing to do with authenticating a text to it's source

    If write a book now with stories that that I copied from somewhere that does happen, and add parts from my own, then claim it's from Jesus ( PBUH ) without having any link to Jesus ( PBUH ), will the fact that stories came true alone authenticate it to Jesus ( PBUH ) ?

     

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth,
    confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety."
     (Yusufali's translation)
    "And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, 
    confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it
    ."
    (Pickthal's translation)

     Here you stand at the crossroads again, which path will you TAKE? The Qur'an states that Allah has guarded, watched over, and preserved  the Scriptures that were written before the Qur'an,

     

    Please post the verse number when posting a verse, I'm assuming you mean Al Maida ( 5 ) verse 48

    You already posted them and we replied to it, but here it is again

    I don't know which language is your native language, arabic or english, but there's NOTHING in the verse you mention that talks about 'preserving'

    The arabic word in the verse ( Muhaimin ) means predominant/controller ..etc.
    Which is what Qur'an does, it preserves in it's verses the true faith and divine messages in previous scriptures


    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    you continue to make claims that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are corrupted.

    Who is we? This is the message from God and God's Prophet ( PBUH ) we didn't bring it up from our minds

    Beside the logical facts that results to this, for those who don't believe in God

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Logically, from a Muslim's perspective I gather, it follows that Allah has failed to guard His own Holy Word. This is so surprising, since the Qur'an clearly states the opposite. 

    As mentioned before, If we follow your 'logical' ( which is not logical to me ) approach, God didn't preserve the revelations sent to Abrahama ( PBUH ), does that, mean God failed to preserve it ?

    This is not the muslim perspective, if it's your perspective then fine, but don't dictate on us what our perspective should be

    No one said God 'failed', God preserved the divine messages for eternity in the Qur'an, which is the final testament for all man kind and choose not the preserve previous one's

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    I am NOW convinced that you and those who follow this course are a kafir and truly believe that Allah's word can be altered and changed!

    God tells us in the Qur'an about those who alter the words of God, does believing in this mean we're kafir's ?

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity. Sura Yunus 10:64 (Yusuf Ali's translation)

    Do you understand the verse you just mentioned ?
    It talks about God's promise of the glad tidings, and how that is a great felicity

    Regards



    Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
    Date Posted: 30 September 2009 at 12:11pm
    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    I am NOW convinced that you and those who follow this course are a kafir and truly believe that Allah's word can be altered and changed!

    Kafir ()

    a person who refuses to submit himself to Allah (God), a disbeliever in God.
    (Source:MSA-USC)


    Kafir ()
    (Plural kafirun or kuffar) a person who rejects Allah and his messenger. the opposite is believer or mu'min.(Source:Taha Publication)

    Okay when you use this word you are discribing your current state of being.Idiot


    Posted By: Shibboleth
    Date Posted: 30 September 2009 at 6:09pm

     

    Dear member_profile.asp?PF=53261&FID=10 - Andalus Moderator;

     

    Jeremiah prophesied about all those events that I posted, they all came true during his life-time AND after with astounding accuracy but it’s irrelevant you say, how ridiculous and how sad! You don’t have to accept the prophet Jeremiah or his prophecies but how can you deny its fulfillments, they all came true, not ONE of them failed, can Muhammad or the Quran say the same? BTW, the book of Jeremiah is part of the Greek Septuagint Bible AND the Hebrew Masorectic Text. It’s accepted by the Jews, Christians and some Muslims the world over. What benefit would it serve to the Jews to tamper with the writings of Jeremiah? If the Jews can tamper with the writings of Jeremiah, why not tamper with the writings concerning Jesus? But yet some modern Muslims, not all deny Jeremiah and his words all together regardless of the writings you do have.

     

    Do not selectively believe in only some of God’s messengers -Sura 4:150-151

     

    150. Inna allatheena yakfuroona biAllahi warusulihi wayureedoona an yufarriqoo bayna Allahi warusulihi wayaqooloona nu/minu bibaAAdin wanakfuru bibaAAdin wayureedoona an yattakhithoo bayna thalika sabeelan

     

    151. Ola-ika humu alkafiroona haqqan waaAAtadna lilkafireena AAathaban muheenan

     

    The people of Israel carefully protected and guarded their scriptures. The Jews were not like Caliph Uthman who commanded that all the copies of the Qur'an, except for his version, be destroyed by fire. He destroyed all the variant versions of the Qur'an, so there would be only one version for the Muslim world. Since the ancient textual evidence of the Qur'an was burnt by fire, no one knows for sure what variations (corruptions) of the Qur'an existed prior to Caliph Uthman. It is hypocritical to fault the Jews for corrupting their Scriptures when the Muslims openly admit that they burnt their own ancient source documents!  

    The Qur'an states,

    "To thee We sent the Scripture [Qur'an] in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it [Bible], and guarding it in safety." Al-Ma'idah 5:48 (Yusufali's translation)

    So, if the Muslim writer is to maintain his assertion that the Bible is corrupted and unreliable, he would have to asset that 1) Allah failed to guard it in safety or 2) the Qur'an is mistaken about the textual integrity of the Bible.

    If you’re concluding your argument on the corruption of the Bible and its prophetic accuracy, and its historical proof and its scientific evidence based on a few missing FRAGMENTS that has not as yet been discovered 2000 years later, you don’t have a leg to stand on. You sound like people who say that “Man Evolved” rather then was created because of a LACK or not ENOUGH evidence or that ‘The flood of Noah” never took place because of seemingly a LACK or not ENOUGH evidence.

     

    How will you stand before the judgment of God? It’s one thing to deny God because of a “LACK” of understanding but to deny his Holy Word because of a LACK of fragments?

    You are throwing out the “baby with the bath water” my brother, as the expression goes. In your quest to prove the Holy Bible corrupt you cut off your nose to spite your face.

     

    In a new topic I will put the Holy Quran under the spot-light to see how it holds up under scrutiny!

     

    For example Some Shi’ite Muslims say ‘Uthman left out 25% of the original verses of the Quran for political reasons. See McClintock and Strong Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature 5:152. This is interesting, because most Sunnis still accept Shi’ites as Muslims.

     

    In Bukhari vol.6:525,526 Qatada and Anas relate that in the time of the prophet [i.e. before ‘Uthman’s rule], four people "collected" the Qur’an: Ubai, Mu’adh, Zaid bin Thabit, and Abu Zaid.

    According to Mohammed’s wife ‘Aisha, one Sura had 200 verses. By ‘Uthman’s time, it only had 73. One can read this in the book Islam p.191ff by the skeptic Guillaume.

    Peace

     

     

     

     



    -------------
    “If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)


    Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
    Date Posted: 01 October 2009 at 2:42am
    [QUOTE=Shibboleth]



    "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth,
    confirming the scripture that came before it,Confirming the scripture that came before it,The Prophets all had the same message i.e There is only One God worship Him and Him alone All Praise is to Him and guarding it in safety."
     (Yusufali's translation)
    "And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth,The Quran is what this statement is referring to 


    <p ="Msonormal">Here you stand at the crossroads again, which path will you
    TAKE? The Qur'an states that Allah has guarded, watched over, and
    preserved  the Scriptures that were written before the Qur'an, In What Surah and What Ayat does Allah say this word for word?


    Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
    Date Posted: 01 October 2009 at 2:46am
    2:120 (Asad) For, never will the Jews be pleased with thee. nor yet the Christians, unless thou follow their own creeds. Say: "Behold, God's guidance is the only true guidance." And, indeed, if thou shouldst follow their errant views after all the knowledge that has come unto thee. thou wouldst have none to protect thee from God, and none to bring thee succour.2:121 (Y. Ali) Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own. You sir do not read the Qur'an as it should be read you see what you want to see a believe what you want to believe,Just use your brain if the Qur'an is actually confirming that the bible is the truth in all its messages then what would be the use for the Qur'an in the first place?Evertime I see you post what the Qur'an confirms about what came before it, I will reply (InshAllah)I dont want you thinking the wrong thing abut the Qur'an or Muslims,We study this we have qualified people to translate what we dont undestand (even thow its clear). You on the other hand dont and we dont need any to read the bible because, you dont do you?i.e preachers dont count if the bible is only in English and not Aramaic or Hebrew you dont need to translater for English to English.May Allah help you


    Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
    Date Posted: 01 October 2009 at 11:52am
    And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth# 13:1 (Y. Ali) A.L.M.R. These are the signs (or verses) of the Book: that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord is the Truth; but most men believe not.


    Posted By: Meditations
    Date Posted: 04 October 2009 at 6:48pm
    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    Jeremiah prophesied about all those events that I posted, they all came true during his life-time AND after with astounding accuracy but it’s irrelevant you say, how ridiculous and how sad! You don’t have to accept the prophet Jeremiah or his prophecies but how can you deny its fulfillments, they all came true, not ONE of them failed,


    I think there's a logical gap here, let me try to explain in hope you'll understand
    there're two different statements, you're arguing one of them

    ALL of the bible is still the word of God
    or
    SOME of the bible is still the word of God ( while the other part we don't know for sure if it's still or not )

    Which one are you arguing ?

    If you're arguing that ALL of the bible is still the word of God, then authenticating parts of it or referring to some prophecies in it that came true doesn't help you

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    can Muhammad or the Quran say the same?


    There're numerous prophecies in the Qur'an and in prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) sayings that came true, during his life and after it, so yes we surely can say the same thing not more

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    BTW, the book of Jeremiah is part of the Greek Septuagint Bible AND the Hebrew Masorectic Text. It’s accepted by the Jews, Christians and some Muslims the world over. What benefit would it serve to the Jews to tamper with the writings of Jeremiah? If the Jews can tamper with the writings of Jeremiah, why not tamper with the writings concerning Jesus?


    As far as I know jews don't recognize Jesus ( PBUH ) do they ?
    if they did this will make them christians, not jews right ? 


    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    The people of Israel carefully protected and guarded their scriptures.


    If this is true, then where is it ?
    The oldest reference to the old testament you have is how many years after Moses ( PBUH ) ? 1000 years ? 2000 years ?


    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    The Jews were not like Caliph Uthman who commanded that all the copies of the Qur'an, except for his version, be destroyed by fire. He destroyed all the variant versions of the Qur'an, so there would be only one version for the Muslim world. Since the ancient textual evidence of the Qur'an was burnt by fire, no one knows for sure what variations (corruptions) of the Qur'an existed prior to Caliph Uthman.


    It was pointed several times that preserving the Qur'an is dependent on memorizing it by heart, and receiving it through direct links, not through reading
    Qur'an preservation is not only for the words or letters, but for the performance and pronunciation,  always depended on memorizing by heart

    This is what makes Qur'an unique, and what kept it from alteration or change
    This is why the Qur'an you hear in USA is the same you hear in Indonesia, is the same you hear in Saudi Arabia , Egypt , Turkey and everywhere


    I read Qur'an on someone who memorize it by heart, every single letter in it, who read it on someone who is the same way, all the way to the Prophet (PBUH) without Uthman being in the paths , so what he did has nothing to do with how we received the Qur'an
    If all printed copies of the Qur'an would be burnt today it won't do muslims any harm, our book is kept in our hearts , no other nation did this to their book

    that said, here're some facts about Uthman :
    1- Uthman whom you speak of, was the husband of the Prophet's daughter, and when she died, he married another daughter of the Prophet ( PBUH ), so he was someone who is very well honored by the Prophet (PBUH) and well known accepted figure in the society
    2- Uthman came to be khalifa only 13 years after the Prophet ( PBUH ) died
    3- Uthman didn't 'destroy' versions of Qur'an and keep 'his version' he made a comittee from companions who memorize the Qur'an by heart, and who heard it directly from the Prophet ( PBUH )

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    It is hypocritical to fault the Jews for corrupting their Scriptures when the Muslims openly admit that they burnt their own ancient source documents!


    Yes, we admit it because we are a transparent nation, we have nothing to hide 
    The writings is NOT the source of the Qur'an, it's God who is the source, and who revealed it to the Prophet (PBUH), who read it to the companions, who read it to those who came after them untill it reached us


     
    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    The Qur'an states,

    "To thee We sent the Scripture [Qur'an] in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it [Bible], and guarding it in safety." Al-Ma'idah 5:48 (Yusufali's translation)

    So, if the Muslim writer is to maintain his assertion that the Bible is corrupted and unreliable, he would have to asset that 1) Allah failed to guard it in safety or 2) the Qur'an is mistaken about the textual integrity of the Bible.

    It is of a great surprise that you're repeating this argument again after it has been refuted several times, but again

    1- No muslim believes that God is able to preserve the Qur'an and not the bible, it is God's action that is to preserve one and not the other

    God is able to preserve the revelations sent to Abraham, but God didn't do so, does this mean God can't do it ? It does not
    2- Qur'an never confirmed the textual integrity of the current bible or the bible that was available at the times of the Prophet (PBUH), to the contrary, Qur'an in several places talks about how it was altered and changed

    not to mention this is the not the topic, if the Qur'an confirms the bible or not, it's if the bible is still the word of God, which you need to prove to 'everyone' not only believers of the Qur'an, so you need to find different arguments

     

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    If you’re concluding your argument on the corruption of the Bible and its prophetic accuracy, and its historical proof and its scientific evidence based on a few missing FRAGMENTS that has not as yet been discovered 2000 years later, you don’t have a leg to stand on.

    It has been pointed out several times that

    1-there's no historical proof that connects the old testament or the new testament to it's original source
    2- the percentage of these 'missing fragments' is quite large

    Plus, can you explain how did these missing fragments appear in the bible?
    if it's missing, then we wouldn't have it or know about, would we ? 

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    You sound like people who say that “Man Evolved” rather then was created because of a LACK or not ENOUGH evidence or that ‘The flood of Noah” never took place because of seemingly a LACK or not ENOUGH evidence.

    I wouldn't believe that the flood of Noah took place unless there was evidence, I have the evidence for that

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    How will you stand before the judgment of God? It’s one thing to deny God because of a “LACK” of understanding but to deny his Holy Word because of a LACK of fragments?

    It is because it's the word of God, we need to verify and authenticate it, not take anything that's presented to us for granted
    this is how we verify the word of God which we received
    we read it , pray with it 5 times a day,
    memorize it by heart

    Do you know any other nation that does with it's book like muslims do with the Qur'an ?

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    You are throwing out the “baby with the bath water” my brother, as the expression goes.

    If there was a baby that is, not a shadow of a shadow of the possibility of a baby that was there

    In your quest to prove the Holy Bible corrupt you cut off your nose to spite your face.[/QUOTE]

    We're not in a quest to prove the bible wrong,

    the fact ( which was pointed to you several times ) that
    1- Several christian scholars admit it had to have been changed
    2- There's no direct link between the scriptures and it's original source
    3- there're 'new edittion' every now and then

    Is enough

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    In a new topic I will put the Holy Quran under the spot-light to see how it holds up under scrutiny!

     I would like to see you try

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    For example Some Shi’ite Muslims say ‘Uthman left out 25% of the original verses of the Quran for political reasons. See McClintock and Strong Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature 5:152. This is interesting, because most Sunnis still accept Shi’ites as Muslims.

    You said you'll start a new topic, so please do
    Also, please if you'll quote any muslim, you have to quote them, not an orientalist talking about them
    As for the Shie'a and the Qur'an, It's very easy to verify, go to Iran and get a copy of the Qur'an, see if it's the same as what the sunni read or not, you'll be surprised that it is the SAME

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    In Bukhari vol.6:525,526 Qatada and Anas relate that in the time of the prophet [i.e. before ‘Uthman’s rule], four people "collected" the Qur’an: Ubai, Mu’adh, Zaid bin Thabit, and Abu Zaid.

    So ?

    Originally posted by Shibboleth

    According to Mohammed’s wife ‘Aisha, one Sura had 200 verses. By ‘Uthman’s time, it only had 73. One can read this in the book Islam p.191ff by the skeptic Guillaume.

    Please if you start the new topic, quote where did she say this, not someone who didn't hear it from her quoting her

    Best Regards


    Posted By: Mansoor_ali
    Date Posted: 10 October 2009 at 11:50am

     Subject:Bible is not reliable.

     We donot follow Bible because we donot believe in its authority .We follow only Quran and Hadiths.

     


    Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
    Date Posted: 10 October 2009 at 12:59pm
    You know it just makes me wonder was a name such as Matthew,Luke,Mark common among Middle -Easterners in the biblical times because theysure sound like Anglo/RomanGreco to me.Lamentations of Jeramiah 5:7 Our fathers have sinned,and are not;and we have borne their iniquities.What does this means AND ARE NOT;and are not what? 5:10 Our skin was black like an oven because of the terrible famine.: fam·ine
    Pronunciation: \ˈfa-mən\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from feim, faim hunger, from Latin fames
    Date: 14th century
    1 : an extreme scarcity of food
    2 archaic : starvation
    3 archaic : a ravenous appetite
    4 : a great shortage

    I never knew that starving makes your skin black what type of knowledge is this?So does this means that Starving Africans are super Black from the sun and from starving.



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