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’just jihad?’

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Politics
Forum Name: Current Events
Forum Discription: Current Events
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1472
Printed Date: 23 April 2014 at 3:51am


Topic: ’just jihad?’
Posted By: b95000
Subject: ’just jihad?’
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 12:10am
Can someone explain a 'just jihad?'  In Christianity there has long been discussion of 'just war.'  There are some Christian sects that believe that all war is wrong - i.e. they adhere to pacifism in the strictest sense.  Other groups believe that the governments of states are justified, under certain circumstances, to wage war against enemies of the state - so defined typically by some governing body or group of legislators or representatives.

In Islam, I must admit my novice understanding, 'jihad' is declared in fatwas or declarations and it is also seen as a sort of pillar of the faith and defined to mean all sorts of things not really implying fighting and warring at all.

For the sake of this discussion, please define a 'just jihad' in terms of a 'just war.'

Thank you...


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Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.



Replies:
Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 12:12pm
A just Jihad would be one in which the Ummah (Muslim community) defends itself against external, unprovoked aggression or in defense of a helpless community likewise threatened.

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Yusuf


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by Yusuf.

A just Jihad would be one in which the Ummah (Muslim community) defends itself against external, unprovoked aggression or in defense of a helpless community likewise threatened.


If you were to guess - how widely accepted is this view among Muslims? How widely taught is it? 

What is the Qur'anic support for this and what are some other stances on the pillar of jihad?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 2:53pm

Jihad is not one of the pillars of Islam:

 

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0018:

It is narrated on the authority of ('Abdullah) son of Umar (may Allah be pleased with them) that the Holy Prophet (may peace of Allah be upon him) said: (The superstructure of) al-Islam is raised on five (pillars), i. e. the oneness of Allah, the establishment of prayer, payment of Zakat, the, fast of Ramadan, Pilgrimage (to Mecca).

Among the abundant evidence in the Quran concerning the rules of Jihad, here is a selection:

XXVI. 225. Seest thou not that they wander distracted in every valley?-

226. And that they say what they practise not?-

227. Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of Allah, and defend themselves only after they are unjustly attacked. And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!

LX. 8. Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

9. Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

IX. 58. If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.

59. Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).

60. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

This is the canonical understanding of the term which is taught in all the traditional centers of Islamic scholarship (Al-Azhar, for example).



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Yusuf


Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 2:57pm

Obviously, only a small minority follow the writings of Syed Al-Qutb, the formulator of the "modern" form of jihad otherwise, with over 1 billion Muslims in the world, there would be general military engagements rather than random acts of terrorism.

Al-Qutb's writings are actually an adaptation of Lenin's theory, expounded in his article "On Party Organization," that a small, dedicated group could effect change on a massive scale, with a veneer of Islam placed upon it.



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Yusuf


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by Yusuf.

Obviously, only a small minority follow the writings of Syed Al-Qutb, the formulator of the "modern" form of jihad otherwise, with over 1 billion Muslims in the world, there would be general military engagements rather than random acts of terrorism.

Al-Qutb's writings are actually an adaptation of Lenin's theory, expounded in his article "On Party Organization," that a small, dedicated group could effect change on a massive scale, with a veneer of Islam placed upon it.



Yusef,
With low percentages that follow this latter day manipulation of jihad, why do so many jihadi groups appear in Saudi Arabis, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, etc. etc. and why does the 'Arab street' seem so complacent toward them...or at least unable to countermand them.

Do you see this complacency toward extremists that claim Islam, and wage a latter day jihad that's an evident perversion of Islamic teaching, to be a threat to the very foundation of your Faith?

What can be done about this perversion of the teaching of jihad?

Can you cite some examples of 'just jihad' in the past 200 years?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 4:57pm

Most of the people in the Muslim world are primarily concerned with feeding their families and do not have the resources to engage in these issues.

I do not see these movements as any threat at all, but rather as an extreme reaction to western imperialism. Insha'Allah they will die out over time as did other radical groups such as the Hashishun.

Proper education of all Muslims concerning the tenets of their faith would alleve some of the problem. However, as long as the United States continues to attempt world domination there will be resentment. The extreme form of this resentment will be expressed in terrorism.

I will give one example of a just jihad: In 1815 the Russian Army invaded Chechnya and began a genocidal campaign, slaughtering men, women and children by the thousands. After a decade of this barbarism Imam Shamil declared jihad against the Russians with the exclusive goal of expelling the Russians from Chechnya.



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Yusuf


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by Yusuf.

Most of the people in the Muslim world are primarily concerned with feeding their families and do not have the resources to engage in these issues.

I do not see these movements as any threat at all, but rather as an extreme reaction to western imperialism. Insha'Allah they will die out over time as did other radical groups such as the Hashishun.

Proper education of all Muslims concerning the tenets of their faith would alleve some of the problem. However, as long as the United States continues to attempt world domination there will be resentment. The extreme form of this resentment will be expressed in terrorism.

I will give one example of a just jihad: In 1815 the Russian Army invaded Chechnya and began a genocidal campaign, slaughtering men, women and children by the thousands. After a decade of this barbarism Imam Shamil declared jihad against the Russians with the exclusive goal of expelling the Russians from Chechnya.



B: Thanks for the example Yusuf. 

Y: "I do not see these movements as any threat at all, but rather as an extreme reaction to western imperialism. Insha'Allah they will die out over time as did other radical groups such as the Hashishun."

B: Really?  Maybe not to 1 Billion Muslims but certainly they slaughtered 300 or so on 9/11.  What about to them - it was certainly a threat.  What about to the good name, the reputation of your Faith, since people are associating these murderers as Muslims (even though they are not true Muslims, we would agree), it behooves you to address their errors at every turn and to try to speed their demise.  Are you saying that it is alright, it is a proper strategy to just let them die out on their own?  And what about the way they're threatening certain imams and certain moderate teachers - you must not support that and you must see the threat in that, right?

Y:Proper education of all Muslims concerning the tenets of their faith would alleve some of the problem. However, as long as the United States continues to attempt world domination there will be resentment. The extreme form of this resentment will be expressed in terrorism.

B: Show me the contours of US imperialism and world domination - what does it look like?  Thanks for answering my questions..

May the peace and grace of our Lord be upon you and your family..



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 9:26pm

There are, in fact, very few radical groups in the Middle East. The sad fact is that, owing to the sophistication of modern technology, a small group of individuals can cause massive destruction, particularly when they are willing to die in the process. For example, had Al-Qaeda existed 100 years ago and had similar grievances with the United States there would have been very little they could have done. But in fact, 19 individuals were actually the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks. This equals an infintesimal fraction of the Muslim world population.

As far as combatting terrorism, the methodology of terrorism worked out by Mikhail Bakunin and Sergei Nechaev in the 1870s has proven impossible to stop. The formation of small, semi-autonomous cells allows rapid restructuring with minimum losses. The Russians against the anarchists, the British against the IRA, the Spanish against the Basque separatists stand as convincing proof that terrorism cannot be stopped by any currently known means. Therefore, to try to become involved in combatting terrorists is futile, and the only sane course for a Muslim to follow is to practice one's religion faithfully and raise one's children properly so that they do not become involved in such activities.

I used to be one of those who ran high and low in my community denouncing terrorism as unislamic, as did many of my brothers and sisters. But there were two consistent reactions: some people said they already knew that true Muslims would not commit acts of terror, and so therefore there was no need to reinforce this idea. Others were never satisfied, always found something lacking in my explanations, or simply accused me of trying to save my own skin from backlash. I tried to deal with these people for a long time, and finally came to the conclusion that no evidence or demonstration would be sufficient to convince them. Therefore, I concluded there is nothing to be gained from such demonstrations.

As for America's imperial policy, I refer you to A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order by F. William Engdahl, Pluto Press, 2004. The subject is far too complex and detailed to engage in a discussion here, but this book will give you a good introduction.



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Yusuf


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by Yusuf.

The Russians against the anarchists, the British against the IRA, the Spanish against the Basque separatists stand as convincing proof that terrorism cannot be stopped by any currently known means. Therefore, to try to become involved in combatting terrorists is futile, and the only sane course for a Muslim to follow is to practice one's religion faithfully and raise one's children properly so that they do not become involved in such activities.


Yusef:
Thanks for the book referral..I'll check it out.  I have no illusions that there are imperialistic impulses in the US.  That said, this country began as a reaction to, a revolution against imperialism, so glibly tossing around imperialism charges against the US flies in the face of her history - this history I know very well but I will look over your recommended piece.  I know that the US has committed sins - but I also know that every last person, group and nation has committed sins - so again, to level charges against one and not the other without discussions of degrees is fairly useless...

As to your examples, just because terrorism per se, cannot be eliminated does NOT mean it cannot and should not be combatted and ameliorated.  Such an approach, ignoring it, emboldens the terrorists and will allow them to raise the stakes...are you seriously suggesting that the authorities in the world, of whom we are their charges, should just ignore AQ?  Something like 1/2 to 3/4 of AQ has been killed or captured and the philosophy that gives rise to AQ, the notion that somehow jihad in the name of Allah is justified whereby INNOCENT people are slaughtered in the name of a peaceful God - has been more and more exposed.  This philosophy of "Faith" by murder is just vile.  Some people see it as zealous or nationalistic but it is purely murderous evil and it is being done in the name of Islam. 

We've been talking about whether these extremists are a problem for Islam and the fact of the matter is that the preponderence of terror acts in the world recently have been carried out by these Muslim extremists...what is it about Islam as separate from say other organized religions that either allows this (as in your attitude of just ignoring this and living a faithful life - good to live a faithful life, but I like your earlier approach to talk this up and to do it faithfully even if it is unpopular - believe me, I know about unpopular causes and sometimes you just have to commit this approach to God and pray that He'll bless it), or is it the culture of the core Islamic area that allow such extremism?

I'm really trying to understand this...you just don't hear about "Christians" blowing themselves up all the time, in the Name of Christ.  Why?  My take on this is that there was violence in Christianity at some points - but that has been worked through.  Christianity is an older Faith than Islam - perhaps Islam needs to work this out!

I think, if you ask me, this is a great test for Islam.  How they work this out will really be important to an unbelieving world that's watching.

Don't you agree?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 10:14pm

I still do try to spread the message that Islam is a religion of peace at times. As for other religions, you are correct: Christians slaughtered millions in their history. The Hindu sect of Kali also murdered many innocents.

The means for the regeneration of the Ummah can be found in the writings of Bediuzzaman Said Nursi. It is his example I follow and spread to other Muslims. His Damascus Sermon is a good introduction to his ideas:

http://www.saidnur.com/foreign/en/risaleler/sermon1.htm - http://www.saidnur.com/foreign/en/risaleler/sermon1.htm



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Yusuf


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 12 July 2005 at 10:53pm
Originally posted by Yusuf.

Christians slaughtered millions in their history.


I am a Christian.  This is a glib reference.  You care to elaborate on this? Just a basic review - for instance are you calling the monarchies in Europe "Christian" - Constantinople one, but like the Kings of France and England, et al?  Are you calling those guys Christians?  Shall we call Hussein a true Muslim - the rapist, mass murderer - along with his sons?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: AK47
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 12:08am

To b95000:

Who is this Hussein that you refer to? There have been many Hussein's in the history of Islam, you'll have to elaborate. And if you are referring to Imam Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet (SAWS), then what do you mean by calling him such vile things such as "rapist, mass murderer"? Do you have any factual evidence, any historical references to back up these outlandish and disgusting accusations, or is it just something that you heard from Falwell?

P.S: for an accurate portrayal of the mass murder, rape, genocide and imperialism that the United States has ingaged in since its inception, try reading "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" by Ward Churchill (AK Press)



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 12:27am
Originally posted by AK47

To b95000:

Who is this Hussein that you refer to? There have been many Hussein's in the history of Islam, you'll have to elaborate. And if you are referring to Imam Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet (SAWS), then what do you mean by calling him such vile things such as "rapist, mass murderer"? Do you have any factual evidence, any historical references to back up these outlandish and disgusting accusations, or is it just something that you heard from Falwell?

P.S: for an accurate portrayal of the mass murder, rape, genocide and imperialism that the United States has ingaged in since its inception, try reading "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" by Ward Churchill (AK Press)



Well, I was referring to Saddam Hussein, so calm down there..
You then go on to throw the assumed mud I was throwing onto the US generally "since its inception."  What kind of tripe is that?  Or is that just something you heard from the fiery imam TV evangelist?

If you are saying that the US has done wrong things, I will not disagree with you AK47, but I ask you which country has not done wrong things...is that ALL you see and know of the USA?  That is a shame and reveals the kind of person that would 'jump to conclusions' as you did with my reference to Saddam Hussein, the rapist murderer and his sons, in kind..

Here's an example of the brutality of Saddam from Ahmad at Iraq Expat:
http://jarrarsupariver.blogspot.com/ - http://jarrarsupariver.blogspot.com/
Ahmad: Very hard. Hard because you are not only suppose to not criticise, but you are suppose to praise what you hate with passion. It is hard because you are living in a big lie and you can't talk about it; you can trust no one. On top of that, and even if you are compliant, you might get into trouble or get killed at any moment without any reasons. For example, Omar Sabawi, Saddam's nephew was driving in al Arasat when he started looking and flirting with some girls in a car. That car was being driven by the girls brother, and their mother was with them. When the brother noticed, he drove away and didn't give way to Omar. Omar and his bodyguards stopped the car and wanted to kill the brother. The mother pleaded for her son's life, she dropped on her knees in the street and kissed Omar's shoe to save her son's life; finally Omar agreed to save her son's life if the son is willing to close his eyes and open his mouth so that Omar can spit in his mouth. The mother begged her son to accept, and he did. When the son closed his eyes and opened his mouth, Omar put the gun in the son's mouth and killed him. Omar and the bodyguards drove away and people in the street where standing by watching but can do nothing to stop it.


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 1:25am

Originally posted by B95000

If you are saying that the US has done wrong things, I will not disagree with you AK47, but I ask you which country has not done wrong things...

West has been lot more worse than the rest of the world. In the last 100 years alone, they have killed more people than the people in the rest of the world have killed.

http://iviews.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IV0309-2080 - relevant article to this thread

 



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An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet


Posted By: AK47
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 10:04am

Well, like I said, there have been many Hussein's, the most famous of which was the grandson of the Prophet (SAWS), so when you said "Hussein" I was taken aback, since in the West Saddam Hussein is always referred to as "Saddam".

Yes Saddam was a murderer, a tyrant and an egomaniac, as are the vast majority of governments in Muslim states, as such I won't disagree with you that many nations, many cultures and empires have committed atrocities, but like ZamanH points out, the sheer amount of atrocities committed by the United States and its proxy nations greatly outweigh the crimes committed by other nations. For instance, the vast majority of nations that have oppressed their people in the 20th century were U.S. allies and dependents (excluding the Soviet Union and China of course, who committed innumberable crimes themselves). When Indonesia was committing atrocities against the East Timorese under Suharto, it was being supplied with the weapons to commit said atrocities by the United States under the guise of fighting "communist" insurgency in East Timor. It was only after Indonesia had outlived its usefullness to the United States that America was miraculously concerned with the welfare of East Timor. How can you even defend the United States at all? As Muslims, we do not target the United States and Israel alone for our criticism, first and foremost we target our own corrupt and immoral regimes. Why can't Americans do the same?

Also, I was not throwing mud on the United States generally, I was stating historical fact. No nation in history has been so hypocritical, war-mongering, lying and two-faced as the United States. America's crimes began against the Native peoples of the United States already in 1776 and just expanded from there. I challenge you to disprove these historical facts on America's aggressive and imperialist behavior since its inception. Read Ward Churchill's book and disprove any of his points, all of which are historical facts (except for his points on Bosnia and Kosovo, which are completely false and I don't know where he got his information, in fact, the claims he makes regarding those two nations are CONTRARY to historical fact.)



Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 3:14pm

Originally posted by b95000

Originally posted by Yusuf.

Christians slaughtered millions in their history.


I am a Christian.  This is a glib reference.  You care to elaborate on this? Just a basic review - for instance are you calling the monarchies in Europe "Christian" - Constantinople one, but like the Kings of France and England, et al?  Are you calling those guys Christians?  Shall we call Hussein a true Muslim - the rapist, mass murderer - along with his sons?

What I meant was that people claiming to be Christians: the Crusaders, for example. However, i agree; no true Christian would commit murder.



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Yusuf


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by ZamanH

Originally posted by B95000

If you are saying that the US has done wrong things, I will not disagree with you AK47, but I ask you which country has not done wrong things...

West has been lot more worse than the rest of the world. In the last 100 years alone, they have killed more people than the people in the rest of the world have killed.

http://iviews.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=IV0309-2080 - relevant article to this thread

 



From the above linked article:
"We have returned to our former habit of publicly attacking races, cultures and religions as a matter of national politics."

This is absurd.  Official US policy is not directed against Arab people nor Islam.  Period.  People can argue the implications of policy but that much is clear.

"
West has been lot more worse than the rest of the world. In the last 100 years alone, they have killed more people than the people in the rest of the world have killed."

Prove this.  Otherwise it is subjective hyperbole.


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 4:11pm
Originally posted by AK47

Like ZamanH points out, the sheer amount of atrocities committed by the United States and its proxy nations greatly outweigh the crimes committed by other nations. For instance, the vast majority of nations that have oppressed their people in the 20th century were U.S. allies and dependents...

B: As I mentioned to ZamanH, please prove this, otherwise it is subjective hyperbole..

When Indonesia was committing atrocities against the East Timorese under Suharto, it was being supplied with the weapons to commit said atrocities by the United States under the guise of fighting "communist" insurgency in East Timor. It was only after Indonesia had outlived its usefullness to the United States that America was miraculously concerned with the welfare of East Timor. How can you even defend the United States at all?

B: If you want to get into the details of arms shipments here and there, you are going to have to broaden your criticism well beyond the US and into entire industrialized world including Russia, China and Europe to name 3 other huge players in arms dealings...has the US or US companies been wrong and done things that are wrong...sure but please be comprehensive in your criticism.  Furthermore, the way that certain groups receive arms is often extremely convoluted and doesn't lend itself easily to bi-polar moralisms of "US EVIL."

As Muslims, we do not target the United States and Israel alone for our criticism, first and foremost we target our own corrupt and immoral regimes. Why can't Americans do the same?

B: Americans do criticize our government - 24 x 7 at times...that's what we're all about in this huge, long running democratic experiment.  Can you point to the same level of dissent and results in any Arab country?  Do the leaders listen to the people?  Must they listen?  Americans often don't hear much about this internal criticism that you're talking about re: Muslim dominated governments.  Conversely we hear of your vocal criticisms of the US and Israel all the time.  Do you blame that on media coverage or on the relative dearth of the former?

Also, I was not throwing mud on the United States generally, I was stating historical fact. No nation in history has been so hypocritical, war-mongering, lying and two-faced as the United States. America's crimes began against the Native peoples of the United States already in 1776 and just expanded from there. I challenge you to disprove these historical facts on America's aggressive and imperialist behavior since its inception. Read Ward Churchill's book and disprove any of his points, all of which are historical facts (except for his points on Bosnia and Kosovo, which are completely false and I don't know where he got his information, in fact, the claims he makes regarding those two nations are CONTRARY to historical fact.)

B: Historical fact?  You haven't convinced me.  The reference you quote seems to be true as long as you agree with it and not true when you disagree...is that how we're to determine historical facts?  So before I go about disproving, or giving a different take on US history, why don't you come up with some specific beefs.



and btw: where are you from AK47?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: MPLS05
Date Posted: 13 July 2005 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by AK47


P.S: for an accurate portrayal of the mass murder, rape, genocide and imperialism that the United States has ingaged in since its inception, try reading "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens" by Ward Churchill (AK Press)


LOL!!  Ward Churchill.  The same man who has been accused of academic fraud, plagiarism, publishing others work without their permission, copyright infringement and most importantly, lying about his Native American heritage.  Not one person will take you serious if you mention this man's work.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 3:20pm
And, would we take you seriously without your Real name on your profile??


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 4:03pm

It's really getting more and more interesting.

Zaman, you must believe everything B95K says because he puts a "Period" at the end of his sentences. Plus, you must agree that it's not a "stated policy" of the US government to oppress Arabs and Muslims, it just happens to run that way.

Saddam never claimed to be a Muslim.

Why should we take your above narration as some gospel truth, especially, since that "babies in incubator" spin by the Americans through Bush the Elder Mid East war? You are so knowledgeable, could you kindly enlighten us about poor April Glaspie's fate? You may remember, she was your Ambassador in Baghdad when Saddam ran Kuwait over.

My friend it's a bit of an uphill task these days to correct the image and, the taste your government (and, specially, the New American Century project) has left with people around the world. I suggest if you spent half as much energy and got your admin to adapt a wee humane policies, it might help, not just the world but also the people of the United States of America.

Best of luck



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 4:09pm

When any people are attacked and occupied, with bogus reason and sheer criminal intent it's not just Jihaad but also the simplest most basic right of those people to fight and despatch the invaders - with whatever means at their disposal.

Does that make any sense or we should not fight for our freedoms if it's the Americans at the other end?



Posted By: Yusuf.
Date Posted: 16 July 2005 at 6:56pm

Assalamu alaikum,

The "stolen incubator" story is a proven lie:

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~marto/aip/mcohen.htm - http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~marto/aip/mcohen.htm



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Yusuf


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 4:03pm
Originally posted by Whisper

And, would we take you seriously without your Real name on your profile??


Is "Whisper" your real name?  Please....


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 18 July 2005 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Whisper

When any people are attacked and occupied, with bogus reason and sheer criminal intent it's not just Jihaad but also the simplest most basic right of those people to fight and despatch the invaders - with whatever means at their disposal.

Does that make any sense or we should not fight for our freedoms if it's the Americans at the other end?



"with bogus reason and sheer criminal intent."

Have the MNF handed over Afghanistan to Afghanis - YES. 
Have the MNF handed over Iraq to Iraqis - YES. 

Seems like what's bogus here Whisper is your reasoning on the matter..sure question the Americans, the MNF, the UN - but question and oppose with 'whatever means' necessary "Islamic leaders" also that are not doing what Islam demands - if Islam is truly a religion of peace..to not do so is hypocrisy.


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 7:28pm

For heaven's sake don't just lose whatever little goodwill you may be left here with us for the sheer sake of smartness. You well know that when you click on my profile you find my real name there!

Have you ever been anywhere near Afghanistan? It's one country you can't bullsh*t me about. Come on tell us what has been handed over there? And, to whom?

You must think we are really a bit thick here in this forum? And, we would believe anything just because it's said by an American? My friend those days are long lost when people used to respect the American word like that.

Let's climb down to the reality land and talk a bit just at man to man level. 

Do you or don't you understand that we are NOT comparing Muslim leaders with anyone here. Have I ever said that these Muslims re any better than your ratched lot? Just even once? You are getting into that comparison. Not me.

We are simply discussing US occupations, here, right now. It's sad, but I will have to ask you do you know what occupation means? I mean in the normal ordinary terms. In some dictionary. Not in Dick Chenny's head.

Even the US intellectuals, those people who happen to have a wee more than just the two brain cells to rub together, do understand what the US is doing to the world. If you don't understand what's happening in the world and to your country's image, please, go and bark at your Vice President's door, not at ours.

He promised you some rose garden. We did not.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 7:32pm

"with bogus reason and sheer criminal intent."
Sorry, I forgot to add a few words. "With dodgy bogus reasons, lies and utter cowboy style criminal intent and purpose"

Happy now? And, as shameless as an American?



Posted By: rocitreal
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by Whisper

Saddam never claimed to be a Muslim.

ya, he even had a tatoo on his arm, by Islamic law he should have his arm cut off shouldnt he.  Great laws demand respect even if they are barbaric.



-------------
Peace, its more than a word its a dream.


Posted By: rocitreal
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by Whisper

We are simply discussing US occupations, here, right now. It's sad, but I will have to ask you do you know what occupation means?

 

occupation    https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Doccupation">Audio pronunciation of "occupation" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (ky-pshn)
n.
    1. An activity that serves as one's regular source of livelihood; a vocation.
    2. An activity engaged in especially as a means of passing time; an avocation.
    1. The act or process of holding or possessing a place.
    2. The state of being held or possessed.
    1. Invasion, conquest, and control of a nation or territory by foreign armed forces.
    2. The military government exercising control over an occupied nation or territory.

Is the US really excercising control ??? i think the elected Iraqi Government is.  Conquest, thats a key word meaning "The act or process of conquering".

I wouldnt say the US has conquered Iraq anymore than Saddam conquered Iraq when he made his way to power.



-------------
Peace, its more than a word its a dream.


Posted By: rocitreal
Date Posted: 19 July 2005 at 9:20pm

To say the US was occupying Iraq, i can agree with but sence elections we are no longer in power, the Iraqi elected government is.  There would not be nearly as much of a US presence in Iraq if the security of the country was stable.  To many people want Iraq to be in civil war which is exactly what would happen if the US simply left the country at this point.

Its easy to point fingers at this point and say get out but if the US and UK did the place would be over ran with Insergent Islamic Extremest which would make there way to power similarly to how the Taliban did, by barbary in the midst of civil war.



-------------
Peace, its more than a word its a dream.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 1:51am

Rocitreal, my above post was for some cocky and slippery poster. I am glad you joined in with this string, you seem to be a genuine person.

You will agree with me that power always lies with the man with the gun. Election have made no difference to holds the actual power strings. Does it not matter at all if the Iraqis don't feel? The elections may be a good thing but just for the home market in the US. Other than that you will find that the "handover" drama and the "civil war will happen if we leave" songs are both far bigger fictions than even the WMDs.

The Afghan civil war was a product of the Vienna Conference when the Soviet Union and the US agreed to keep supplying arms to their respective clients in Afghanistan - a direct result of their interference in my country.

We need to look at global things away from just being an American.



Posted By: rocitreal
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 12:33pm

Why would Iraqi's go to risk there lives to vote in record numbers if they didnt believe there votes were worth anything ? 

is it completely un imaginable that a country known to have tried to develope WMD had them ? is it at all possible that they were there at some point ?

America did help arm the defenders of Afganistan from the USSR, would you have rather the USSR occupy the country ?



-------------
Peace, its more than a word its a dream.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 1:07pm

Yaar, why should it be one occupying if not the other? The deal the US and the Soviets made was anti Afghan in essence, just a recipe of civil war.

The Iraqis were promised by the political parties that this election will bring the end of occupation closer. They lined up for that.

Do you know of any people who like to be occupied?



Posted By: rocitreal
Date Posted: 20 July 2005 at 4:23pm

The US was only involved AFTER the USSR started the war.  We never sent troops to fight, only money and weapons for the fighters defending Afganistan.

US didnt start that war nor the current war in Afganistan.

It is true that by setting up an elected Iraqi Government and Constitution it is obviously transfering power from the allied forces to the Iraqi's.

Do you know how many parents like islamic terrorists killing there children in the streets ?  Do you know how many Iraqi's want murderers driving around with car bombs to blow up there streets and infrustructure



-------------
Peace, its more than a word its a dream.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 4:50pm
I agree with you they don't like being killed, but they also do not like being occupied at all.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by Whisper

The deal the US and the Soviets made was anti Afghan in essence, just a recipe of civil war.

B: You're suggesting some ad hoc deal with the Soviets or just what happened by default?

The Iraqis were promised by the political parties that this election will bring the end of occupation closer. They lined up for that.

Do you know of any people who like to be occupied?

B: Sasha, will you acknowledge that there has been a turnover of the keys of government, power and wealth to an elected Iraqi government, that the Iraqi economy grew by 52% in 2004 according to an extensive IMF study and is growing at another staggering 40% in 2005..?  How are any of these things consistent with any sort of definition of occupation?



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 21 July 2005 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Whisper

I agree with you they don't like being killed, but they also do not like being occupied at all.


If troops are in a country at the request of a popularly elected government - how is this considered (by Sasha) an occupation?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 7:59am

B: You're suggesting some ad hoc deal with the Soviets or just what happened by default?
I don't believe in "suggesting" things. In Vienna Conference (1989) the US and the USSR agreed to "keep supplying their respective clients with arms".

B: Sasha, will you acknowledge that there has been a turnover of the keys of government, power and wealth to an elected Iraqi government, that the Iraqi economy grew by 52% in 2004 according to an extensive IMF study and is growing at another staggering 40% in 2005..?  How are any of these things consistent with any sort of definition of occupation?

Bruce, would you like to genuinely discuss this as a human being or are you just keen of spreading the Neo-Con gospel?

If you are genuinely keen on knowing what's going on in Iraq, you would know the simple fact of life that the man with a gun always holds the ultimate power never mind who we may trust with a few keys.

Economy is the last point on an average Iraqis agenda. First is running water. The second, electricity supply. And the third is "good bye" of the occupation troops.

You wish to talk about economy. Would you please answer just these three questions simply - without typing in some doctorate worthy thesis:

1. Has Iraq suddenly gone into producing Boeing spare parts? Or, has some other locked up sector like tourism has added extra revenue streams to its economy

2. Is it possible that the sudden jump in crude prices reflects in these figures?

3. If such a jump in economy then why does it not reflect in the country's employment figures?

If troops are in a country at the request of a popularly elected government - how is this considered (by Sasha) an occupation?
Best ask those 71% Iraqis who consider they are occupied. Plus, we will share a little secret. Any Indian will tell you that one of my ancestors was in the habit of "being invited" to sort out the Punjaub at the request of one "head" of the area or the other. We all know about such arrangements in the world of real politique.

Let's be a little humane and not belittle people who are already ill with so many Sharon supporters on their soil. Not my opinion. That's how the Arab Street views the US army.

This government is elected only for drafting a constitution. Lets be friends and not kid each other or take the rest of the world to be some fools. Are you really not interested in what's happening in the real world?



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 22 July 2005 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Whisper


Best ask those 71% Iraqis who consider they are occupied.


I'm interested in this stat if you can source it...thanks...


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 23 July 2005 at 12:23pm

Bruce, do you ever follow the British or any other seious global publications? There was a very recent PEW poll in Iraq. It may not have been flashed in the US - like the US media did not touch on the Downing Street Memos - till a Senator set up a website.

Whats there for me to keep saying that a majority of Iraqis want you to leave? Also, in simple logical terms, if things were really that rosy in Iraq, the US President would never have breathed the "O" word. His words: "people don't like being occupied".

I will look into my Dbase and find that report for you, but first must swim. Too hot here!! 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 7:45am

Some juggler was trying to sell us slaughter and occupations under the "Liberation" designer label. He insisted on telling us how Eyerakis loved MNF troops. (never knew USA had now changed it's Trade Mark to MNF!)

Iraqis Put Contempt For Troops On Display

By Edward Cody
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, June 12, 2004; Page A01

BAGHDAD, June 11 -- A pair of AH-64 Apache helicopter gunships thumped back and forth overhead, scouring residential streets for insurgents. Dun-colored Bradley Fighting Vehicles snorted and wheeled around, their tracks gouging holes in the tarmac. A dozen Humvees stood sentry, closing off the four-lane avenue to Iraqi cars, while nervous American soldiers with M-16 automatic rifles forbade local residents from approaching.

"Look at this," said Ghassan Abu Ahmed, raising his hand in a sweeping gesture toward the tableau of military might. "This is freedom? It is crazy."

A car bomb had just hit a U.S. military convoy passing down the main avenue Friday afternoon in southwest Baghdad's Sayediyeh neighborhood, one of the near-daily attacks on occupation troops across Iraq. By the standards of Iraqi violence over the past two months, it was not particularly bloody. The U.S. military reported no serious casualties. But for what it told about Iraqis' attitudes toward the 13-month-old U.S. occupation, the attack was devastating.

"What Saddam did was awful, but what the Americans are doing is worse," said Abu Ahmed, a laborer who lives with his wife and four sons in a government-built apartment house flanking the road. "They say they are bringing us freedom. But this is what they bring."

Since U.S. forces drove to Baghdad and overthrew President Saddam Hussein in April 2003, the 138,000 American soldiers stationed here have lost their status as liberators in the eyes of most Iraqis. Polling by the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority has chronicled a steady souring of opinion, with the most recent surveys showing about 80 percent of Iraqis with an unfavorable opinion of U.S. troops.

They have been encouraged in their views by Muslim preachers, who, judging by their sermons, have concluded that the U.S. occupation should end immediately if peace is to be restored to Iraq. To buttress their arguments, they repeatedly have cited the abuse of Iraqi captives at Abu Ghraib prison, which has helped crystallize opinion against the presence of U.S. soldiers.

"It was discovered that the freedom in this land is not ours. It is the freedom of the occupying soldiers in doing what they like, such as arresting, carrying out raids, killing at random or stealing money," Sheik Mohammed Bashir declared in his sermon Friday at Um al-Oura, a Sunni Muslim mosque in the middle-class Ghazaliya neighborhood.

"No one can ask them what they are doing, because they are protected by their freedom," he continued. "No one can punish them, whether in our country or their country. The worst thing is what was discovered in the course of time: abusing women, children, men, and the old men and women whom they arrested randomly and without any guilt. They expressed the freedom of rape, the freedom of nudity and the freedom of humiliation."

Sheik Bagir Saad at the Hikma Mosque in Sadr City, a stronghold of Shiite Muslim militiamen who have confronted the occupation militarily, denounced U.S. and U.N. plans that he said call for increased involvement by the international body and an increased emphasis on military forces from a variety of countries.

"The new U.N. resolution calls for multinational forces, but we want to inform all the countries that we don't want their armies, whether Arab, Islamic or foreign armies, because we will look at any army coming to Iraq as an occupation, and they should not send their children into this trap," he said.

The Baghdad residents who lined up to watch as U.S. soldiers clustered around their wrecked Humvees on Friday were clearly among the majority who have heeded the call of their sheiks. No one was heard expressing concern for the soldiers who were bombed. Judging by their comments, the neighbors of Sayediyeh's middle-class apartments looked at the avenue and saw enemies in desert camouflage.

Mohammed Ali Ahmed, 24, a worker who lives nearby, complained that the wounded U.S. soldiers were picked up and driven away for medical care by an Iraqi civilian ambulance that happened by. Iraqi ambulances are not for occupying troops, he declared.

"They shouldn't have taken them in the ambulance. They should have left them there, left them to die," Ahmed said to a neighbor.

"That's not right," objected Aqil Kitab, 28, another worker who was standing next to him. "Have you ever been in the army? Even your enemy, when he is wounded, you have to treat him. Then you can interrogate him or put him in a prisoner-of-war camp. The ambulance driver did his job. It was the right thing to do."



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 25 July 2005 at 5:26pm
Interesting Sasha, that your article is from over a year ago - summer 2004!  Why don't we try to keep up with things...this was well before 8.5 million people voted in Jan. 2005, even before the handover of power in 2004...this is just absurd to be quoting this now without context..wow, Sasha, what's up with that?

And in general, sure there may be an unfavorable view of some things in Iraq - people are being killed - primarily by Death Cultists, street thugs and warlords that want chaos.  But that doesn't mean that most people don't support the ouster of Saddam Hussein (I notice that that question wasn't asked or highlighted and certainly not pull quoted by Sasha) nor the establishment of democracy - which has its own price.  

-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 11:36am

Interesting Sasha, that your article is from over a year ago - summer 2004!  Why don't we try to keep up with things...this was well before 8.5 million people voted in Jan. 2005, even before the handover of power in 2004...this is just absurd to be quoting this now without context.. wow, Sasha, what's up with that?

Good luck to you with such oft over repeated ouster of Saddam!

Right this moment we are talking just how the poor Eyerakis feel about your troops, specially, since those elections.

The elections were steged only:

1)      because Ayatallah Sistani forced the Americans to hold elections

      CPA was only interested in keeping the CIA operative, Ayad Allawi in power.

2)      Iraqis voted because they were told that this would bring an end to the occupation. (No one said it was osme Liberation)

Things have really gone worse since they don't see an end of this occupation.

What handover of POWER?

It's a universal truth:

POWER only ever lies with the chap who holds the GUN.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:11pm
Yes, it's from over a year ago. Things may have become better in your very kind imagination. On the ground they have gone worse, since.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 26 July 2005 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by Whisper

Yes, it's from over a year ago. Things may have become better in your very kind imagination. On the ground they have gone worse, since.


If you write in larger and larger type you will be heard more clearly...
Sasha, the clear point I am making is that the statistics you quoted from your article are before the handover of power, before the elections, etc...The violence is a horrible thing - but who and what is the cause of this violence?  Of course, that seems to be the point of our whole debate...

I will simply continue to posit that you cannot blame the defender of liberty for tyranny.  You must blame the tryants - OBL, Saddam, the Iranian mullahs, the Saudi Wahabi extremists - including those in the House of Saud, the Taliban and extremists all throughout the ME - DO NOT WANT DEMOCRACY and many others either sympathize with that view or somehow are indifferent toward democracy as it overlays into Islamic culture - thinking somehow the two are inconsistent.

Is Islam inconsistent with democracy and freedom?  I think that is a great test of Islamic veracity as a 'great Faith.'  Will it be a great Faith or will it be a "faith" and culture based on coercion or tradition vs. freedom and free will?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 10:39am

Stay this point instead of running away into some far off sunset of your convenience.

Those statistics and the hatred of the Iraqis have gone worse.

If you wish to contest it, please, support your claim with fresh evidence instead of humming your MNF, liberation mantra.

After that we will also discuss why we can't shower democracy from 52,000 feet.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Whisper

Stay this point instead of running away into some far off sunset of your convenience.

B: I never run away - despite your opining...

Those statistics and the hatred of the Iraqis have gone worse.

B: If Iraq has issues, it's certainly in large case because the ME has issues.  I don't see you addressing the terrorism and its antecedents in the area and in the ME.  No, all is the 'fault' of the EVIL US.  What utter simplism and true 'running away' (I know, ironic, isn't it?) This is not the fault of Americans, per se, or even Americans solely.  Sure America has her part in the ills of the world, to be sure.  But so does every other nation and every other person, including our self deluded, somehow purer than the rest, Sasha Whisper.  Sasha, you can labor under and harbor illusions or you can deal with facts and reality and try to be helpful to the future and to future generations.  That truly is your choice Sasha.

Ultimate and immutable support for my argument lies in the reality of human nature...and support for yours?



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 27 July 2005 at 3:56pm

You have again gone off the rails, though my point was dead simple. Do you have problem reading English or you run away only when a point exposes some US misdeeds.

I paste it here for you to read:

Those statistics and the hatred of the Iraqis have gone worse.

If you wish to contest it, please, support your claim with fresh evidence.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 01 August 2005 at 6:13pm
Originally posted by Whisper

You have again gone off the rails, though my point was dead simple. Do you have problem reading English or you run away only when a point exposes some US misdeeds.

B: For you to contend simplicity amidst the complexity of the ME is indeed simplisitic, our dear Sasha.  Such cannot be done, despite your protestations.

I paste it here for you to read:

Those statistics and the hatred of the Iraqis have gone worse.

If you wish to contest it, please, support your claim with fresh evidence.

B: My point is the same as it was on July 26th which is, "who and what is the cause of this violence?"  I've run no where Sasha, run from nothing, run from no point of yours.  The question is, where are you going?  Do you know?



-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by b95000

My point is the same as it was on July 26th which is, who
and what is the cause of this violence?"


But you already shared your opinion about who and what is the cause for all
this violence, didn't you claim it is a defected genes here in the forums?

How can we discuss current events with you if you have allready made up
your mind about people this way?

Can you share with us what you meant by that or where you joking?


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by jibreel

Originally posted by b95000

My point is the same as it was on July 26th which is, who
and what is the cause of this violence?" 


But you already shared your opinion about who and what is the cause for all
this violence, didn't you claim it is a defected genes here in the forums?

How can we discuss current events with you if you have allready made up
your mind about people this way?

Can you share with us what you meant by that or where you joking?


What?  Since when did I ever make any point, remotely close to what you're imputing to me?  No, I'm asking the question - who and what is the cause of our scourge of intentional violence and killing of innocent civilians around the world?  It cannot be Iraq nor Afghanistan, because many of these events pre-dated both of those actions...

No, the who and what is something else...it is a scourge in the side of Islam itself...and Islam is just starting to take public steps to deal with it.  Now actions must follow the fatwas in North America and the Sunni fatwa in Great Britain.

And actions among the Christians and Jews (et al) to embrace faithful Muslims in this cause must also happen.  None of this will be easy or familiar for any of us..


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by b95000

No, I'm asking the question - who and what is the
cause of our scourge of intentional violence and killing of innocent
civilians around the world? It cannot be Iraq nor Afghanistan, because
many of these events pre-dated both of those actions...


U.S.A and ISRAEL has been the cause of all the violence around the world,

Israel had agreed not to take other land then the amount when there
Zionists state was set up with the U.K. just after WW2, and since then they
have broken all there agreements and have carried out crimes against
humanity, babies dropped out windows to breaking Palestinians elbows
all caught on camera shows how religiously fanatical they are about
taking Zion.

Israel is the only Western country in the middle east today and the U.S. is
there big brother.

The U.S.A. has been supporting Israel in there own interests to get into
the middle east for years since the Ayatollah khomeini tried kicking out
anyone willing to help the U.S start business in those regions for oil,
Then., Reagan gave Sadam Hussein weapons to attack Iran, all backed up
by the CIA who his Vice President Bush ran in the background still, who
later also uses a BLAME GAME to frame SADAM 2 times with his son been
the last one we all witnessed which finaly penetrated one of the best oil
reserves in the world.

Is this what you call a demacracy?

Originally posted by b95000

No, the who and what is something else...it is a
scourge in the side of Islam itself...and Islam is just starting to take public
steps to deal with it. Now actions must follow the fatwas in North
America and the Sunni fatwa in Great Britain.

Fatwas are like warrants against people who committed crimes against
humanity or blasphemies against ALLAH, if anyone declares that they are
greater then ALLAH and start going around killing everyone he is really a
tyrant.

Jesus passed a Fatwa and expressed a "Jihaad" (PBUH). "I say to you that
to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not
have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies
who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in
my presence" (Luke 19:26-27).


And a Fatwa is unlike warrants in other countries which police capture the
perpetrator and torture him until the electric chair, or take money for the
crimes cost and let him go., you have to be realy busted for a seriously
evil thing to have a fatwa against you.

Originally posted by b95000

And actions among the Christians and Jews (et al) to
embrace faithful Muslims in this cause must also happen. None of this
will be easy or familiar for any of us..
Muslims already Embraced ALLAH and respect Jews and
Christians who do too., especially those who keet there religion and
helped the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) remove pagans from around the
Ka'baa which is a place of prayer Abraham (PBUH) who all 3 religions
reconize as the father of there faiths, anyone who is against this is not a
jew or christian at all, but a liar , especially who says islam spread with by
the sword, when there is no evidence of this.

And if a Jew claims he knew better then Mohammed (PBUH) then why did
these particular jews not remove the adulterers themselves from the
Ka'Baa?

Maybe you have not met any real Jews or Christians who practice there
faith like we do, and who respect islam for there peaceful contributions
and protections of Believers in other Abrahamic (PBUH) faiths for
centuries until Crusades showed up and ethnically cleansed Jews or
Christians while claiming to defeat Islam in spain.

And what kind of war was that about, religion or racism?

John 4
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall
worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to
worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit
and in truth.
[25] The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is
called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
[26] Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

The Immunity
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say:
The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they
imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy
them; how they are turned away!
[9.31] They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords
besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were
enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far
from His glory be what they set up (with Him).


Peace


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by jibreel

U.S.A and ISRAEL has been the cause of all the violence around the world,


That is ludicrous and you know it...you're only going to get Sasha to bite on that lure...

Jibreel, what do you think about the nature of people (nature of mankind?)  I say we're all fighting part of us that is evil/selfish/greedy by nature.  If you disagree and somehow think only Americans and Israelis suffer from this malady, then I feel sorry for you - as you labor under a grand illusion about yourself...


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 4:28pm
Some Zionists have been extreme and some have committed murder.  Civilized people oppose murderers through the rule of law and not through vigilante justice..you cannot condemn all of Israel because of the actions of a few extremists...the same is true for Islam, etc.

As to your quote from Luke - that was a parable that Jesus was telling - he was not speaking about Himself!  Please read the context of that passage..

Originally posted by jibreel


Maybe you have not met any real Jews or Christians who practice there
faith like we do, and who respect islam for there peaceful contributions
and protections of Believers in other Abrahamic (PBUH) faiths...

B: Of course, I know true believers in all three Faiths..





-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by b95000


Originally posted by jibreel

U.S.A and ISRAEL has been the cause of all the violence
around the world,


That is ludicrous and you know it...you're only going to get Sasha to bite
on that lure...

Jibreel, what do you think about the nature of people (nature of
mankind?) I say we're all fighting part of us that is
evil/selfish/greedy by nature. If you disagree and somehow think
only Americans and Israelis suffer from this malady, then I feel sorry
for you - as you labor under a grand illusion about yourself...

I do not agree that all Israelis and all americans are the same, i believe
that individuals who cowardly give up themselves to submit to
evil temptations become evil, do you agree?

Every person is responsible for there very own actions.

if you do, then submit to ALLAH, even if you are a Jew or Christian, DO
WHAT YOUR RELIGION ASKS YOU TO DO AND MOVE ON.

Peace is what comes from your ways of life, not what a country promises
and which changes all the time from one leader to the next perverted.,
rarely will you find a honest King these days who has not been
assassinated some say.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by jibreel

Originally posted by b95000


Originally posted by jibreel

U.S.A and ISRAEL has been the cause of all the violence
around the world,


That is ludicrous and you know it...you're only going to get Sasha to bite
on that lure...

Jibreel, what do you think about the nature of people (nature of
mankind?)  I say we're all fighting part of us that is
evil/selfish/greedy by nature.  If you disagree and somehow think
only Americans and Israelis suffer from this malady, then I feel sorry
for you - as you labor under a grand illusion about yourself...

I do not agree that all Israelis and all americans are the same, i believe
that individuals who cowardly give up themselves to submit to
evil temptations become evil, do you agree?

B: I agree to that and I thank you for not placing all Americans or all Israelis in the same huge pot...but you have said, "U.S.A and ISRAEL has been the cause of all the violence around the world" ???  How can you believe this, really?

Every person is responsible for there very own actions.

B: Yes, also true, I agree...

if you do, then submit to ALLAH, even if you are a Jew or Christian, DO
WHAT YOUR RELIGION ASKS YOU TO DO AND MOVE ON.

Peace is what comes from your ways of life, not what a country promises
and which changes all the time from one leader to the next perverted.,
rarely will you find a honest King these days who has not been
assassinated some say.

B: Really, Jibreel, we agree on these points.  I just disagree with you that all the violence in the world has been caused by the US and Israel...I think that is just too illogical a leap for anyone to make..


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by b95000

   I just disagree with you that all the violence in the
world has been caused by the US and Israel...I think that is just too
illogical a leap for anyone to make..


Check your facts and Prove it to be wrong then?   

I do not agree that all Muslims should be put in one melting pot by you,
this is the impression you have been giving all along since you have little
knowledge of Islam around here.

The fact is that a country is not the same as a faith,
A country can not hold people responsible as citizens against there
beliefs and to ask them too when they already committed to paying there
tax is clearly a argument with the hostilities of the Roman Empire and
why the U.S. supposed of to existed in the first place., breaking away of
mediocre hypocrisy of Paul's religion and its power hungry perverts.

But this never had anything to do with Islam, and it only testifies that
Islam is the true religion when westernized religions treat each other with
hostile manners due to power struggles., there religion then fails to stand
as a nation and is devided from all this.

i have come to the conclusion that you think the generations before us
who have made mistakes are not responsible for all these wars today,
when indeed they put people on the map where they do NOT belong or
asked to go.

We can go on forever if you have been ignoring my posts al this time,
because the very things you agreed to above are disagreed to by Zionists
and those in the U.S. behind a democracy hiding in a fascist corporate
world.

Ask me for links to any information you think you have doubt and i will
post the answers, it seems that no matter what the topic is it all boils
down to the very people who do not want to change from there
submission to evil rather then to ALLAH.

As of Today, Israel has no right and should of pulled out a long time ago
before they carried out atrocities.

And the U.S. and zionist supporters should be exposed.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 02 August 2005 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by jibreel

Originally posted by b95000

   I just disagree with you that all the violence in the
world has been caused by the US and Israel...I think that is just too
illogical a leap for anyone to make..


Check your facts and Prove it to be wrong then?   

B: Please, common sense alone dictates the ridiculousness of this absolute statement.  The nature of man is my evidence.  I need go no further.  You use no diplomacy with inflammatory false statements like that.  I could easily go into a more extensive treatment of this, but that should really be enough to prove my point unless you believe that people are somehow inherently different - i.e. a racialist argument.  I do not think so and most do not think that people are very different at our core.  In fact the biologists now tell us that all racial differences arise from only 1/2 of 1% of our genetic codes and that all other parts of human beings are similar. (c.f. Ken Ham)

I do not agree that all Muslims should be put in one melting pot by you,
this is the impression you have been giving all along since you have little
knowledge of Islam around here.

B: I have certainly not been saying that.  Where have you gotten that impression Jibreel?

The fact is that a country is not the same as a faith,
A country can not hold people responsible as citizens against there
beliefs and to ask them too when they already committed to paying there
tax is clearly a argument with the hostilities of the Roman Empire and
why the U.S. supposed of to existed in the first place., breaking away of
mediocre hypocrisy of Paul's religion and its power hungry perverts.

But this never had anything to do with Islam,

B: You don't think Islam has been politicized at all, ever?  I think that is another absolute statement that you will never be able to defend.  You're fond of these never, always, 100% statements at times, aren't you?

and it only testifies that
Islam is the true religion when westernized religions treat each other with
hostile manners due to power struggles., there religion then fails to stand
as a nation and is devided from all this.

B: I will never argue that Christianity, for instance has its full house in order - but you think Islam and Muslims do?  Please!  A little reality check..Perhaps you should focus your efforts on encouraging your brothers and sisters to uphold the Scriptures and not as much on claiming absolute wrongs with others and right with Islam (as presently practiced.)  That would be a good mature view, in my humble opinion...but you're entitled to your opinions, however faulty they evidently appear to be, as long as they don't contribute to violence against the innocent..

i have come to the conclusion that you think the generations before us
who have made mistakes are not responsible for all these wars today,
when indeed they put people on the map where they do NOT belong or
asked to go.

We can go on forever if you have been ignoring my posts al this time,
because the very things you agreed to above are disagreed to by Zionists
and those in the U.S. behind a democracy hiding in a fascist corporate
world.

B: I do not defend "all things American" or "all things corporate" or "all things Israel" - neither should you obsessively oppose those entities for no apparent reason.  To claim that Jews, as it appears you are claiming, have no right to be in and near Jerusalem and their holy cities is just ludicrous...how can you even go there and say the don't 'belong' there?

Ask me for links to any information you think you have doubt and i will
post the answers, it seems that no matter what the topic is it all boils
down to the very people who do not want to change from there
submission to evil rather then to ALLAH.

B: I agree Jibreel, much of the ills in the world are actually due to the lack of faithfulness of the faithful.  However, this is, of all the things we discuss, in our hands to change, isn't it?


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: Goerge the Jew
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 7:41am
I do not agree with any of you

America is about no religion, you want to get the job done then do it
yourself


"I wish I wasn't the war president. Who in the heck wants to be a war president? I don't." George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 6, 2004

-------------
Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish
fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6). , if you have a problem with this then your been anti-Semitic cuz i aint .


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 04 August 2005 at 6:22pm
Yawn, scroll........

-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: abujamal
Date Posted: 08 August 2005 at 2:28pm

Jihad is expending (ones) effort/ability in fighting in the way of Allah directly (mubashira) or assisting by wealth or opinion or increasing numbers or other than that. The fighting to raise the word of Allah is jihad. As for jihad by opinion in the way of Allah, this is jihad is the opinion relates directly to fighting in the way of Allah. If it does not relate directly to this, it is not Shara jihad even if it involves difficulty (mashaqqa) and even if there results benefits in raising the word of Allah. This is because jihad in Shara is specific to fighting, so there enters within it everything related directly to fighting. Similar to the opinion is writing and speaking; they are jihad if they are related directly to fighting in the way of Allah like the speech to the army to encourage it to fight directly or words inciting fighting the enemies. If not, they are not (jihad). Neither political struggle nor rebuking (muqaria) the rulers is termed jihad though their reward is high and their benefit to the Muslims great. The question/issue is not difficulty nor the benefit, but rather it is the Shara meaning with which it came for this word. The Shariah meaning is fighting and all that it related to it of opinion, speech, writing, strategy (makeeda) and other (similar) things.

The cause of jihad is not jizyah even though we stop (fighting) them when they accept the jizyah. Rather, the cause of jihad is that those whom we fight are disbelievers (kuffar) who rejected the dawah. The Supreme said: Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the deen of truth among the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah from their hands while they are humiliated [TMQ 9:29]. The command to fight them due to their attribute of disbelief (kufr) i.e. fight them because they do not believe in Allah and the Last Day etcso this description/attribute is a restriction (qayd) and at this point it becomes a cause (sabab). So the cause of fighting is disbelief. It came in another ayah: O you who believe, fight those who encircle you (close to you geographically) of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you [TMQ Tawba ] so the command to fight them is due to the attribute of disbelief. There are many similar ayat such as: Fight the allies of Satan [TMQ ] (and) Fight the leaders of disbelief [TMQ 9: ] (and) Fight the polytheists altogether [TMQ ] (which) all command the fighting due to a specific attribute which is the cause of fighting i.e. disbelief. As for the payment of jizyah, the Quran made it together with humiliation as the cause of stopping the fighting not the cause of fighting. Frome here it came that the cause of jihad is disbelief. If those whom we fight accept the dawah they become Muslims; if they refuse to accept Islam (but) accept to pay the jizyah and be ruled by Islam, it is accepted from them and they are not fought as it is not permitted to force them to accept Islam. As long as they accept to be ruled by it and pay the jizyah, they have submitted to the dawah even if they have not accepted Islam. Accordingly, it is not allowed to fight them after they accept to be ruled by it and pay the jizyah. However, if they accept to pay the jizyah but refuse to be ruled by Islam, it is not allowed to accept this from them because the cause of fightingwhich is that they are disbelievers who have refused to accept the dawahremains standing so fighting them remains obligatory, an obligation which has not fallen from the Muslims necks. As for the emergency treaties (muahadat idhtirariyya) in which the Khaleefah accepts from them the jizyah while leaving them to rule themselves by the system of disbelief, due to the absence of (muwatat) of the external and internal circumstances for it, the Shara gave concession (rakhasa) to this emergency situation in the situations of necessity so no analogy is done upon it. Therefore the cause of jihad is that those whom we fight are disbelievers who refused to accept the dawah and there is no other cause for jihad.

As for jizyah together with humiliation being a cause to stop fighting, this is only with non-polytheist Arabs. As for polytheist Arabs, it is not accepted from them except Islam or fighting due to the Supremes statement: You will fight them or they will become Muslims [TMQ ].

Jihad is obligatory by the explicit text (nass) of the Quran and Hadith. The Supreme said: Fight them so that there remains no (fitnah) and the deen becomes wholly/only for Allah[TMQ 2: ] and He said: Fight those who dont believe in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the deen of truth among the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah from their hands while they are humiliated [TMQ 9: ] and the Supreme said: If you do not go out (for jihad), He will punish you with a painful punishment [TMQ 9: ] and He said: O you who believe, fight those who encircle you of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you [TMQ 9: ]. From Anas who said: The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: Fight the polytheists with your wealth, your hands and your tongues (narrated by An-Nisai). Also from Anas that the Prophet (SAW) said: A morning in the way of Allah, or an evening, are better than the world and what is within it (narrated by Al-Bukhari). He also narrated that he (SAW) said: I was commanded to fight the people until they say There is no god but Allah. Imam Ahmad and Abu Dawud narrated from Anas who said: The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: Jihad (madhi) from when Allah sent me until the last of my Ummah fights the Dajjal. It will not be invalidated by the tyranny of the tyrant or the justice of the just (leader).

From Zayd bin Khalid who said: The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: Whoever prepares a warrior (ghazi) in the way of Allah has (also) fought, and whoever takes care of his family in goodness (khayr) after him has (also) fought (narrated by Ahmad). From Ata bin Yazid al-Laithi that Abud Said al-Khudri (RA) related to him: It was said: O Messenger of Allah, which of the people is better? The Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: A believer who does jihad in the way of Allah by his body and wealth (narrated by Al-Bukhari). And he (AS) said: Whoever dies without fighting or his soul thinking of fighting has died upon a branch of hypocrisy. From Abi Awfa that the Messenger of Allah (SAW) said: Know that paradise is beneath the shade of swords (narrated by Al-Bukhari). From Abu Hurayra who said: One of the Sahabah of the Messenger of Allah (SAW) passed by a ravine  with rivers of sweet water in it and was astounded by its beauty, so he said: What if I separated from the people and stayed in this ravine? But I will never do it until I seek permission from the Messenger of Allah (SAW) so he mentioned that to the Messenger of Allah who said: Do not do (so) for the standing of one of you in the way of Allah is better than his praying in his house for seventy years (narrated by At-Tirmidhi). Jihad is a collective obligation (fard kifayah) offensively (ibtidaa), and an individual obligation (fard ayn) against the enemy who attacks them while being a collective obligation upon the rest. The obligation does not fall until the enemy is expelled and the Islamic land liberated from their filth. The meaning of jihad being a collective obligation offensively is that we start fighting the enemy even if they do not start (fighting) us. If no Muslim performs the fighting offensively at any period then they will be sinful for leaving it. If the people of Egypt perform the offensive jihad then (its obligation) falls from the people of Indonesia, as there existed practically fighting by Muslims against belligerent disbelievers so the obligation of jihad has occurred. However if fighting (nashaba) between Muslims and disbelievers but the sufficiency (kifayah) has not occurred by the people of Egypt fighting the disbelievers alone, then its obligation does not fall from the people of India and Indonesia by the performance of the people of Egypt and Iraq. Rather it is obligatory upon the nearest (Muslim) then the nearest to the enemy until sufficiency occurs; if sufficiency does not occur except with all the Muslims, then jihad becomes obligatory upon all the Muslims until the enemy is conquered/subdued. The (muhil) of jihad being a collective obligation is if the Khaleefah has not told him to advance (jastanfiruhu); as for the one whom the Khaleefah has told him to advance, then jihad has become obligatory upon him due to the Supremes statement: O you who believe, what is wrong with you that when it is said: Go forth in the way of Allah you hold firm to the earth [TMQ 9:] and his (SAW) statement: And if you are asked to advance, then advance. The meaning of the sufficiency of jihad in the Islamic State is that there rises for jihad a people whose fighting is sufficient; whether they are an army for whom there are books of accounts (dawawin) for this as was the case in the time of Umar, or they had prepared themselves for jihad freely as was the case in the time of Abu Bakr. It is the same whether these ones or these ones or both of them together such that if the enemy targets them (al-manaah) occurs by them so it is a collective obligation upon them. If (al-manaah) does not occur through them, then the Khaleefah prepares other for jihad and so on. Offensive jihad does not mean that we initiate fighting the enemy directly; rather we must first call them to Islam.

If is not allowed for Muslims to fight those whom the Islamic dawah has not reached; rather, the disbelievers must first be called to Islam. If they reject, then the jizyah; and if they reject, we fight them. Muslim narrated from Sulayman bin Buraydah from his father: When the Messenger of Allah (SAW) appointed an Amir over an army or expedition, he would exhort him to fear Allah in his soul and to be good to those Muslims with him. Then he would say: Fight in the name of Allah, in the way of Allah. Fight those who disbelieve in Allah. Fight but do not betray, commit treachery, mutilate nor kill a child. When you meet your enemy among the polytheists then call them to three (khisal) or (khilal) such that whichever of them they respond to, accept from them and do not fight them. Then call them to Isalm; if they are respond to you, accept from them and do not fight them. Then call them to move (tahawwal) from their land to the land of the emigrants (Muhajireen) and inform them that if they do this then for them is what is due to the Muhajireen and against them is what is due from the Muhajireen. If they refuse to move from it, then tell them that they are like the bedouin Muslims upon whom does not run what rule of Allah which runs over the believers and there is no booty or spoils for them unless they fight jihad with the Muslims. If they refuse, ask them the jizyah; if they respond to you, accept from them and do not fight them. If they refuse, seek help from Allah against them and fight them. And from ibn Abbas: The Messenger of Allah (SAW) never fought except that he invited them (narrated by Ahmad). And from Furwat bin Maseek who said: I said to Messenger of Allah, should I fight with those of my people advancing (against) those of them fleeing? He said: Yes. When I turned (to go), he called me and said: Do not fight them until you invite them to Islam.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 08 August 2005 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by abujamal

"Neither political struggle nor rebuking (muqaria) the rulers is termed jihad"


So if everything that is specifically related to 'fighting for Allah' or 'fighting for Islam' is termed jihad, speech and actions related to fighting, etc.,  then the notion that struggle or difficulties for the sake of Islam is jihad should be dispelled.  Jihad is fighting and war for Allah, correct?  Then the question becomes, can there be unjust jihad and what are the terms, the conditions of 'just jihad?'  So let's look at this quote you gave Abujamal:
Originally posted by abujamal

Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the deen of truth among the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah from their hands while they are humiliated [TMQ 9:29].


At the very least this would forbid the so called 'jihadists' from fighting other Muslim believers and other monotheists, other People of the Book.  Now, we're into this, because the US and Israel and Europe, still, are full of People of the Book and monotheists.  The jihadists that are using the notion of jihad to advocate killing and 'purifying' Islam are just flat wrong and heretical toward Muslim theology and teaching.  True Muslim teachers need to rise up against such heresy.

Osama Bin Laden and Al Zarqawi are heretics and should be opposed by all Muslims for their heresy - as well as their murderous duplicity and co-opting the Muslim faith for political and 'worldly' considerations.

If Islam is to be truly, other worldly and focus people on faith in Allah, then why are these so-called jihadists focused on worldly events and politics?  Is not Allah above this fray?  It is so perverted for OBL and Z to be doing this - to be preverting Allah for their own worldly selfish means...

Muslims arise and awake to this sickening heresy and fight for your faith - for the faith of your fathers!

As I say this, I admonish myself to do the same - to fight for the faith of my fathers and against the perversion of it by the US materlialistic idolatry..that is not to say that all material is bad - I am not advocating nihilism - but I am saying that it is true poverty to worship things or wealth and power...I will fight against that til I die...and if anyone cares what I mean by fighting against materialism I will fill you in...


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 09 August 2005 at 7:13am
Bruce

    Jihad was a commandment from ALLAH to Abraham and also to Moses
(pbuh) for the children of Israel aka Jacob (no jews existed yet) but
before there was judaism., Exodus 20:13Thou shalt not kill (unless to
remove oppressors)

   this commandment was abused by corrupted by biblical scribes who
wanted to judge others by there own standards and not by the Universal
God., which results to racist discrimination as we wtinessed with Jesus
(pbuh) who was accused of things just because he was a samaritan.

John 8 [48] Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well
that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

And the children of Abraham (pbuh) as jesus (pbuh) refered as abraham
his father as well and others whom he called his family where also of the
same faith.

So while your defending the fight for satan, pride in things like a country,
money, oil.. or qnything that benefits you there are those who believe and
fight in the name of allah.

So you better get your story straight if you have a problem with that one.

The fact is that only a liar would call the believers fanatics, because a liar
wants to believe he is not the fanatic for going to bed with a teddy bear
to avoid the nightmares for the actions against there own soul.


Posted By: abujamal
Date Posted: 09 August 2005 at 9:42am

Firstly, the evidences presented above is the classical uderstanding of Jihad.

Originally posted by b95000

Originally posted by abujamal

"

So let's look at this quote you gave Abujamal:

[quote=abujamal]Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor follow the deen of truth among the People of the Book until they pay the jizyah from their hands while they are humiliated [TMQ 9:29].



At the very least this would forbid the so called 'jihadists' from fighting other Muslim believers and other monotheists, other People of the Book.  Now, we're into this, because the US and Israel and Europe, still, are full of People of the Book and monotheists. 

Secondly, that is not my quote, but a verse from the Quran. And ifwe turn to the classical scholars for their commentary on this verse such as the mufassir ibn Kathir, this is what you will find:

The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until They give the Jizyah

Allah said,

[ ]

(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.) Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad , they had no beneficial faith in any Messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah's Law and religion. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad , because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad's advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even though he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, they do not follow the religion of earlier Prophets because these religions came from Allah, but because these suit their desires and lusts. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets . Hence Allah's statement,

[ ]

(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture,) This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination. The Messenger sent his intent to various Arab areas around Al-Madinah to gather forces, and he collected an army of thirty thousand. Some people from Al-Madinah and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind, for that year was a year of drought and intense heat. The Messenger of Allah marched, heading towards Ash-Sham to fight the Romans until he reached Tabuk, where he set camp for about twenty days next to its water resources. He then prayed to Allah for a decision and went back to Al-Madinah because it was a hard year and the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing.

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Allah said,

[ ]

(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,

[ ]

(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,

[ ]

(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims. We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors [of our houses of worship] for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit [or betrayal] against Muslims. We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them. We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets. We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices [with prayer] at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets. We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.' When I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''

[ - ]

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20980 - http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20980



Posted By: abujamal
Date Posted: 09 August 2005 at 9:44am
doesnt support arabic text by the looks of it


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 12:32am
Hebrew for the Torah.,
Greek for the Gospels,
Arabic for the Qur'an.


the text above is a peace treaty....

Allah commands to fight only in the way of allah, no one has the rights to
fight for there own interests., this is only in the way of allah, for peace,
islam.

Anyone who disputes with this is defending there worship for other false
Gods,(money, women) whatever they cherish as they should cherish allah
there creator who sustains and gives them eyes to see and ears to hear
and a heart to understand with a brain to think.

so its obvious who is fighting blindly when they have no way of seen or
hearing, understanding or sense for others.


Posted By: abujamal
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 4:05am

Originally posted by jibreel



the text above is a peace treaty....

English is obviously not your first language.



Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by jibreel

this commandment [jihad] was abused by corrupted by biblical scribes


"abused by corrupted by"

And apparently by present day terrorists and murderers that plague Islam at the moment as well...You do not see Christians advocating 'jihad' or some version of it, these days, to 'spread the faith.'  Some radical, Islamic perverting terrorists (too many really - too high a percent to be settled about) are doing such today - supposedly, or ostensibly to 'spread Islam.'

All reasonable people know that this is not 'spreading Islam' but hurting Islam.  And Islam as a great faith must (continue to) respond..


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: firewall
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 5:48pm


Posted By: jibreel
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 11:45pm
peace treaty to live under the freedom of your own faith in one same God

or do some have other Gods they prefer?

--> We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set
against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and
protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit
against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken
and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of
defiance and rebellion.'''

the attacks on Islam and anyone for there faith is only a unjustifiable
attack by
hypocrites and polytheists.

why would people attack muslims or anyone for there faith and what did
you expect them to do, stand by and commit suicide?

live by the gun, die by the gun
live by the bomb, die by the bomb

islam will only defend itself and smack back the same ways the enemies
of God did to there innocent, and un like the jews, they will not kill 1000
non jews for a single life of one Jew, Islam rejects such racism.


Posted By: b95000
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by firewall

i've read that when fighters actually say they fight bcoz of the wars, ppl just don't believe it. the media seems to be in delusion, they still want to think it's all bcoz of Islam.

& thus when people who don't even know Islam read about the media smearing Islam, they just think, well... it's all bcoz of Islam. & then, the false ideas about Islam are spreaded. & we muslims are looked with a negative light.


When your faith is attacked or smeared, you need to put up a vigorous, Godly defense...that's what I'm suggesting...do not allow the extremists to use and manipulate what Islam is/is supposed to be...

I agree the secular media smears pious, God fearing, peaceful, industrious and creative people of faith - and that must not rest unopposed any more than the extremists must not rest unopposed..!


-------------
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.


Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 1:02am
WAR IN ISLAM.

INTRODUCTION
There are many armed struggles that are going on around the world in the name of Islam, they are doing indiscriminate killings, suicide bombings, guerrilla attacks, kidnappings, hijackings etc. terming such acts as strategy in    war. The groups who are doing so have leaders who Quote verses from Quran to make such violent acts seem fair in the eyes of muslims, muslims swear by the Quran and count it to be the book containing the words of God, the book which of a surety speaks of justice.
On the other hand there are muslims who count such men as Satanists, hate what they do, do not subscribe to their view/interpretation of Quran at all.
The general masses as well as muslims are in a confusion that what does the Quran actually say on war?
I tell you nobody actually knows the stand of Quran, the stand of God, no not even the scholars!!! Thats why there is no consensus on the issue as they themselves dont have clarity on the issue!!! Truly we have treated the Quran as foolish nonsense/ignored it/discarded it {25:30}, we dont let the Quran go further down our throats into our hearts.
May Allah the revealer of Quran forgive us muslims for what we have done in His name.

WHAT SCHOLARS OF TODAY THINK IT IS
The scholars without exception form their perception of war in Islam not by Quran, but by what seems to be obvious to their hearts with historical events in the background. The conclusions they come to, they do not care to cross check and then on top of it support those conclusions with verses from Quran in which God is encouraging muslims to fight and is promising His help.
They as almost all muslims think that  - prophet didnt fight in Mecca, in Mecca the order of God was to be patient, but then there is a limit to patience and God changed his stand in Medina and asked muslims to fight.
Now this belief is more or less the same in different groups, eg.  Those who believe in principle of Abrogation {see topic Abrogation Abrogated at www.rememberingallah.com} they say that the verses on patience have got abrogated, have been cancelled by verses of war and now we dont need to be patient but fight.
While other groups have gone ahead to define patience and define after how much patience one can fight. All these things have caused havoc and chaos all over the world and have left us muslims confused about our own religion.
However all these people have not been taking the path that they should i.e. first see Quran, then put it in historical perspective and then give conclusions from their hearts. For in this way we will get to know neeyat {intention} of God, I ask the reader to follow this way and not the other way.

THE MERCIFUL SPEAKS OF WAR FITNA, NOT QITAL.
What makes me angry/laugh at scholars who uphold war today is the fact that these scholars of highest eminence do not even know the difference between fitna and qital.
Now Quran speaks at many places about giving people their rights but explains inheritance at only one place, so wherever we read about giving people their right we go back to the verse which has details about inheritance division.  So also we do it in the case of zakat, sawm etc.
Similarly Quran talks about going to war at many places, but at one place has God talked about it in detail and has given the argument for war.
Quran {2:216-217}
fighting is prescribed for you and YOU DISLIKE IT,  but it is possible that you dislike a thing good for you and you like a thing bad for you, but Allah knows and you know not. They ask you concerning fighting in the prohibited month, Say fighting therein is a grave thing, but graver is it in the sight of Allah TO PREVENT ACCESS TO THE PATHS OF ALLAH, TO DENY HIM, TO PREVENT ACCESS TO THE SACRED MOSQUE AND DRIVE OUT ITS MEMBERS. PERSECUTION {FITNA} IS WORSE THAN KILLING {QITAL}. Nor will they cease fighting you until THEY TURN YOU BACK FROM YOUR FAITH IF THEY CAN, and IF ANYONE OF YOU TURN BACK FROM THEIR FAITH AND DIE IN UNBELIEF their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter, they will be the companions of the fire and abide therein forever.
I feel really sad that I will have to explain these verses and it wont be self manifesting to people whereas they are most clear, alas we muslims dont do tawassum, tadabbur, tafakkur {reflect, understand, ponder} as enjoined in Quran, our society as a whole is devoid of it.
1 {2:216} - you dislike war  - we muslims including our scholars do a lot of lip service that follow sunnats, follow sunnats here is one sunnat O muslims, prophet and his companions hated war!!! And see for yourself who is a witness, God himself is a witness to it. How many of us muslims follow it?? How many of us muslims hate to fight??? How many??
2- {2:216} you dislike a thing good for you and you like a thing bad for you these lines can only be understood after seeing the argument that God gives regarding war, thus will discuss them after the last verse.
3 {2:217} now Allah gives a context that the muslims who had been given a logic to fight and are ready to fight are unwilling to fight in the sacred months, as they think the logic to fight is not bigger than importance of sacred months. So Allah reiterates the logic adding that the logic to fight is even greater than the sacred months, but in doing so God makes it easy for us to understand the logic as Allah gives the whole logic in one go.
The logic given by Allah in {2:217} goes
a)    persecution is worse than slaughter fitna is worse than kital IN ISLAM WAR IS ONLY ALLOWED ON FITNA NOT ON QITAL. MARK THE WORDS  - WAR IS ONLY ALLOWED ON PERSECUTION AND NOT ON KILLING/SLAUGHTER. If there is killing then one can not fight but if there is persecution only then one can fight. The egs. Of Qital in Quran are Abel the muttaqee, magicians of pharaoh, killing of newborns of Israel and on it God saying go to pharaoh and talk to him gently. You will never find a change in the ways of God, there is no war on Qital/killing, war is only allowed on persecution/Fitna.
b)    What is fitna/persecution?  Wait it is not us who can define what fitna is when God himself has defined it. Allah tells what Fitna is in the previous sentence {2:217} stopping people from the paths of God, to deny him, to prevent access to sacred mosque and drive out its members
This is Fitna/persecution. This criteria is not being met anywhere today in the world, be it Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine etc. yes there is Qital/killing happening but there is no Fitna. One is free to do salat, read Quran, go to mosques etc.
Yes there is killing and there are enemies but there is no Fitna.   For enemies Allah says if we muslims have any faith in promise of Allah {41:34-35} good and evil are not alike, repel evil with goodness and your enemy will become your friend and intimate. Truly today world is filled with people like Hazrat Umar who with sword in his hand went to kill prophet but none of us accursed muslims is like his sister and brother in law. I ask scholars difference between fitna and Qital, and our ignorant scholars do not even know that, O muslims see whom you are trusting are pushing you towards hell, they dont know while they pretend that they know. We have given our affairs in the hands of those who do not even know basic concepts. If you think its a lie test it for yourself, ask a scholar what is fitna & see if he gives this definition of Allah or his own definition, his years of study would become clear to you as he will give his own. Quran {25:30} the prophet will say O my lord my people treated the Quran as foolish nonsense/ignored it/discarded it
c)    Now why is fitna worse than kital? Wait even                                                                            that has Allah answered, Allah tells in the next sentence the reason based on what Gods cause demands, they will turn you back from your faith and if you do you will be put in hell. Remember what Gods cause is paradise for all, but because of persecution that will not be possible and even those on path to paradise will end up in hell, how will one go to paradise if one is prevented from paths of God, how will one grow in faith if one is not allowed access to Quran, and when one wont come to faith he will not go to paradise, whereas the goal of Islam is to take people to paradise and work of prophet is to save people from hell. Seeing this we understand the verse you dislike a thing good for you and you like a thing bad for you for indeed in such a situation one has to fight and end a system in which God will have to put people in hell, whereas prophet knew God wants people in paradise, the system which only & only increases score of hell instead of score of paradise must be stopped, prophet understood that this situation will never let his work be accomplished until he picks the sword and fight to establish a system of Gods cause in which a person desires paradise even for his murderer, like Abel the muttaqee and doesnt die hating someone there is no place for hate in Universe of Allah.
To sum it up the verses {2:216-217} say
1 prophet and companions didnt like war.
2 - war is allowed on fitna and not on Qital ie on persecution and not killing.
3 fitna/persecution is trying to finish Islam completely from its very root.
4 because of fitna people will go in hell whereas God wants them in paradise, so fight and end that system for that is indeed good, overlook how much you hate war.
5 tell me where is patience in Allahs argument for war?? Where?? God does not talk about patience, patience is a different branch and fitna is a different branch, it is those who do not know difference between Fitna and Qital, its they who think patience is the key behind war and no war, no patience is not the key, Gods cause is the key, but then, they also dont know the Gods cause!!!

SUNNAH OF 2 PROPHETS AND WAY OF GOD
Persecution in itself does not allow a muslim to go to war. War is a very serious issue and the religion of Allah ensures that such a situation does not arise that humans start killing each other.
The best examples in this support is from Quran itself
On one hand was pharaoh doing persecution and on other it was Meccans doing persecution,  Allah says to Moses {pbuh} go to pharaoh and talk to him gently{20:44}, Allah says to Muhammad {pbuh} repel evil with goodness {ehsan} {41:34-35}, when persecution increases Allah asks Moses {pbuh} to migrate by night, when persecution increases Allah asks Muhammad{pbuh} to migrate by night, when pharaoh comes from behind to finish off religion of God, God destroys him, when Meccans come from behind to finish off religion of God, God destroys them as it was not possible for muslim army to win any war but God sent angels to fight as comes in Quran.
So we see there is absolutely no change in the ways of our God, they are same throughout history, so the sunnah of 2 highest ranked prophets and to top it, the way of Allah, the master of the 2 prophets lays it down that if there is persecution then migrate and if the persecutor comes from behind either Allah will destroy them or give you power to destroy them.
But this situation does not arise today as nowhere in the world there is persecution today, yes there is killing but there is no persecution. Yes there are enemies but was not hazrat umar too an enemy, hazrat Khalid bin waleed too an enemy, hazrat saad too was an enemy and tell me how many more enemies shall I name??? truly we have left the path and thus we have been humiliated in this world. Allah teaches in {41:34-35} to look at enemy as a potential friend. Woe to us muslims, woe to our scholars who teach fight against pharaoh, curse him while Allah taught go to pharaoh and talk to him gently {20:44}. Surely the worst hell awaits us all.

HE SAID THERE IS PERSECUTION TODAY
I had a friend who was filled with hate and violence and used to quote from Quran and emotionally supported the muslim violent struggles going on in the world.  He used to give the same arguments for war as discussed in second part of this topic, under what scholars of today think it is, he also didnt know what is fitna, what is qital etc. he had a lot of knowledge, indeed his knowledge was immense, but he had no analyses, zero analyses, like a computer, and was only speaking what was fed to him by false scholars above him.
We sat discussing this and when I showed him these verses it was clear to him that these are the criteria in Islam for war and these criteria are not being met anywhere today, as in every country Jamats go, Quran is distributed and salat is offered.
But he was not willing to kill the hate boiling inside. He instantly left his criteria, which he realized, were wrong and the criteria in {2:216-217} is the real criterion. He instantly in order to still support the hate and violence he was arguing for came up with cunning solution. He asked see {2:216-217} says that war is allowed on stopping people from the paths of Allah right? I said right, he said see setting an intrest free economy is a path of Allah, they dont let us set an intrest free economy so war is allowed
His argument is absolutely valid, but valid till the time he is the one who is defining what does stopping people from the paths of Allah mean. When we see the prophets definition his argument stands broken.
I counter asked him keeping in mind the definition of prophet tell me what is a bigger path of Allah Haj/umrah of Kaaba or intrest? he said ofcourse Kaaba is more important as Haj comes under 5 pillars of Islam whereas intrest doesnt. I asked will you go to war and shed blood if somebody stops you from going to Kaaba? Anger was allover his face and my learned friend said is that even a question!!! I said my brother even hazrat Umar would have gone to war but prophet Muhammad {pbuh} the beloved messenger of Allah didnt, he did sulaih Hudaibiya!!! He closed his eyes got up and left in anger as Quran says they run away from admonition like a frightened donkey running from a lion.
He was speechless as he knew what sulaih Hudaibiya was.
For those who dont know about it I will tell in brief, prophet gathered his companions and set off from Medina to visit Kaaba, the holiest of holy place in Islam, but the Meccans sent an army under Khalid bin Waleed to stop them, muslims took a different route and encamped in the valley of Hudaibiya close to Mecca. The Meccans were hell bent on not letting muslims visit the Kaaba, they came to do a treaty in which muslims were not to visit Kaaba and return, while doing the treaty Prophet was humiliated and even his beard was caught by a Meccan!!! All the companions were there including hzrt Abu Bakr Hzrt Umar etc. and none said decapitate his head like our false scholars who have more knowledge then the highest companions do!!! The man who did so was not even slapped, let alone decapitate his head!!! He was left to roam around the muslim camp at will.
All commentators comment the treaty as a humiliating treaty as all the conditions in it favored the Meccans and it appeared as if muslims are scared thats why they are doing so. Muslims felt so humiliated that almost all the companions were in a bad mood and hazrat Umar went and questioned the prophet are we not on truth? ie why this humiliating treaty, we have fought and defeated them many times, Hazrat Umar was not a rebel, he knew Quran, his concern was that war is allowed on barring people from path of God and we are being barred from visiting Kaaba. But the eye of the great prophet saw something else, prophet saw that the Meccans are saying return to Medina and do what you want there, offer salat, preach Quran etc. but just dont visit Kaaba.
The prophet saw that they are stopping me from the path of God is true, but they are not stopping me from the path of God is also true!!! This is wisdom O muslims this is wisdom which we lack. Prophet knew the situation is not like that of Badr where the Meccans wanted to finish off Islam from the very root, here they were not doing so, they were saying go do what you want in Medina. Lo the persecutor was not coming from behind to finish off the one who has migrated, the criteria was not being met. So stopping people from the path of Allah means stopping people from all the paths of Allah, what prophet did and we muslims should follow his sunnah if such a thing happens is that, he molded the public opinion of whole of Arabia and in some time entered victorious to visit the Kaaba!!! He didnt shed blood at Hudaibiya nor at victory of Kaaba.
My friend knew this and thats why got up and left speechless. Truly when truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes for falsehood by its very nature is bound to perish.


TODAY MY COMPLAINT TOMORROW GODS -
Certainly the false pen of the false scribe certainly works falsehood. We have indeed become like people of the book, we along with our scholars have become like donkeys with books laden on our backs but we understand nothing.
O scholars teach the ummah to be like prophet Yusuf {pbuh} that when children of Adam try to murder them and snatch everything from them and jail them in false cases, they become like children of Jacob and forgive the children of Adam, their brothers. O scholars if you want to teach us teach us how to be gentle to a person like Pharaoh if he comes in front of us as Allah taught Moses {pbuh} in {20:44}. O scholars teach us how to be like Abel and increase score of Allah even if it be on our loss, O scholars teach us how to be like Magicians of Pharaoh who died but didnt let a word of curse come on their lips for pharaoh and called it submission to Allah. Teach us how to be like Abraham {pbuh} that when Allah himself was punishing people of Lot he fell in prostration seeking forgiveness for them, O scholars teach us how to be like prophet Muhammad {pbuh} who will fall in prostration seeking forgiveness for those in hell, whom God will be punishing. O scholars dont be scholars of satan, follow that which is clear in Quran, dont try to follow that of the unclear part of which only the wise have knowledge {3:7}. Dont seek authority, political power and glory for yourselves, Allah will never forgive you for taking the whole ummah astray.
O ummah do tawassum, tadabbur, tafakkur {reflect, understand, ponder} today so that you dont cry tomorrow and if these scholars of Satan dont repent and mend their ways, they need to be deposed, they must be deposed so that the world comes on Gods cause.
May Allah guide us all, Aameen, summa-aameen.
Tawassum, Tadabbur, Tafakkur.
Pray for wisdom.





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The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 13 May 2011 at 9:57am
This article  really smacks of "toot-my-own-horn" and comes across very self-serving/promoting.  "The scholars without exception form their perception of war in Islam not by Quran, but by what seems to be obvious to their hearts with historical events in the background. The conclusions they come to, they do not care to cross check and then on top of it support those conclusions with verses from Quran in which God is encouraging muslims to fight and is promising His help."  What is the evidence for such a sweeping generalization?
"However all these people have not been taking the path that they should i.e. first see Quran, then put it in historical perspective and then give conclusions from their hearts. For in this way we will get to know neeyat {intention} of God, I ask the reader to follow this way and not the other way."  Is this a new fiqh?  Our entire corpus of fiqh should be tossed for conclusions from the heart?
 
 

 

 




Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 16 May 2011 at 2:56pm
@abuayisha - salamvalaikum brother
see for yourself what the Quran says in my post.....what have i said from outside the Quran?? i have quoted the verses you can cross check them, they are very clear, i even gave examples from prophets life....no brother it is not a new fiqh, it is return to the orignal one,,,,,,dont take my word....pick my sentences and prove....it shouldnt be hard to do so??
and i say most gently brother i have been true to Quran, do cross check everything.
peace be on you.


-------------
The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 16 May 2011 at 6:34pm
My question for you is; how are you able to determine that without exception scholars of Islam are all wrong and you have the correct opinion of war in Islam?  Further, that all of people have been taking an incorrect path of arriving at Allah's wisdom behind his legislation but you.  You claim to have the correct path - Quran, historical perspective, and then conclusions from the heart.  The principles of fiqh are Quran, Sunnah, Ijmaa and Qiyas.  What is the basis for what you have presented? 


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 16 May 2011 at 7:27pm
Last Friday while on site seeing tour of ground zero and it's environs found ourselves looking at the much maligned ground zero mosque...it didn't look anywhere like a mosque but just a prayer place in a dilapidated and abandoned old building!  Juma salaat at that place was happen chance totally unplanned!

 The regular imam was a no show so a substitute delivered the Khutba on similar lines as the bro's thesis!

The experience was unbelievably surrealistic...the construction of the new trade center was going full bore a block away and we were gathered in that place  without running water line had busted few days back! Imagine a Jamia Mosque without water!

 A New York cop sat outside in a cruiser keeping an eye for any trouble maker while we did our thing!

At the end of salaat the management made a plea for donations to have the plumbing fixed! And I wondered what was all that uproar few months back against a project with $100 millions budget?
It wasn't a good feeling at all!


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 27 May 2011 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

My question for you is; how are you able to determine that without exception scholars of Islam are all wrong and you have the correct opinion of war in Islam?  Further, that all of people have been taking an incorrect path of arriving at Allah's wisdom behind his legislation but you.  You claim to have the correct path - Quran, historical perspective, and then conclusions from the heart.  The principles of fiqh are Quran, Sunnah, Ijmaa and Qiyas.  What is the basis for what you have presented? 
 
This is what most muslims do when they run out of knowledge and logic. That's a blind faith on scholars, it can lead to shirk.
 
This shows a blind faith on the scholars and ignoring the Book, which is clwarly forbidden in Islam, Quran is your first ref, not the scholars.
 
If the scholars didnt get it wrong, why there are so many divisions in Islam? which set of scholars are right? You might say that only your scholars got it right, I have no counter for such attitude. So when your scholars are in dispute with major issues, please go back to the book, otherwise you may be surprised on the judgement day hearing that all your scholars were wrong and the book was so clear. Have more faith on your ability and Allah's rahmat in understanding Quran than being blind on scholars.
 
Book is above the scholars and scholars can get many things wrong for many reasons. 


-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 28 May 2011 at 8:50am
Nu001 you may want to read rememberallah's post "WAR IN ISLAM" as my response was specifically addressed to his comments.  You seem to have taken a specific response and made it general - out of context, because your post has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand in my estimation.


Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 31 May 2011 at 5:41am
@abuayisha - salamvalaikum brother
you said "What is the basis for what you have presented? "
my basis is first and foremost withoput any competition "the Quran" the furqan.....
point out things of what i have said in the main articles, which i have said from Quran and sunnah.....dont catch sentences which have no weightage....if i am proved wrong in the main article then i stand wrong and you right, otherwise i right.

@nu001 - salamvalaikum brother
i completely agree with you.....it was the practise of jews that they kept the word of their scholar above the word of Allah and commited shirk, which we muslims are also doing, as prophet said that muslims will follow the way of the people of the book inch by inch.

peace be on all


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The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 31 May 2011 at 7:08am
The burden of proof is upon the one who made the claim. 


Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 01 June 2011 at 12:56pm
salamvalaikum brother
dont just say it brother....point out....here i am posting it againg....point out.

WAR IN ISLAM.

INTRODUCTION
There are many armed struggles that are going on around the world in the name of Islam, they are doing indiscriminate killings, suicide bombings, guerrilla attacks, kidnappings, hijackings etc. terming such acts as strategy in    war. The groups who are doing so have leaders who Quote verses from Quran to make such violent acts seem fair in the eyes of muslims, muslims swear by the Quran and count it to be the book containing the words of God, the book which of a surety speaks of justice.
On the other hand there are muslims who count such men as Satanists, hate what they do, do not subscribe to their view/interpretation of Quran at all.
The general masses as well as muslims are in a confusion that what does the Quran actually say on war?
I tell you nobody actually knows the stand of Quran, the stand of God, no not even the scholars!!! Thats why there is no consensus on the issue as they themselves dont have clarity on the issue!!! Truly we have treated the Quran as foolish nonsense/ignored it/discarded it {25:30}, we dont let the Quran go further down our throats into our hearts.
May Allah the revealer of Quran forgive us muslims for what we have done in His name.

WHAT SCHOLARS OF TODAY THINK IT IS
The scholars without exception form their perception of war in Islam not by Quran, but by what seems to be obvious to their hearts with historical events in the background. The conclusions they come to, they do not care to cross check and then on top of it support those conclusions with verses from Quran in which God is encouraging muslims to fight and is promising His help.
They as almost all muslims think that  - prophet didnt fight in Mecca, in Mecca the order of God was to be patient, but then there is a limit to patience and God changed his stand in Medina and asked muslims to fight.
Now this belief is more or less the same in different groups, eg.  Those who believe in principle of Abrogation {see topic Abrogation Abrogated at www.rememberingallah.com} they say that the verses on patience have got abrogated, have been cancelled by verses of war and now we dont need to be patient but fight.
While other groups have gone ahead to define patience and define after how much patience one can fight. All these things have caused havoc and chaos all over the world and have left us muslims confused about our own religion.
However all these people have not been taking the path that they should i.e. first see Quran, then put it in historical perspective and then give conclusions from their hearts. For in this way we will get to know neeyat {intention} of God, I ask the reader to follow this way and not the other way.

THE MERCIFUL SPEAKS OF WAR FITNA, NOT QITAL.
What makes me angry/laugh at scholars who uphold war today is the fact that these scholars of highest eminence do not even know the difference between fitna and qital.
Now Quran speaks at many places about giving people their rights but explains inheritance at only one place, so wherever we read about giving people their right we go back to the verse which has details about inheritance division.  So also we do it in the case of zakat, sawm etc.
Similarly Quran talks about going to war at many places, but at one place has God talked about it in detail and has given the argument for war.
Quran {2:216-217}
fighting is prescribed for you and YOU DISLIKE IT,  but it is possible that you dislike a thing good for you and you like a thing bad for you, but Allah knows and you know not. They ask you concerning fighting in the prohibited month, Say fighting therein is a grave thing, but graver is it in the sight of Allah TO PREVENT ACCESS TO THE PATHS OF ALLAH, TO DENY HIM, TO PREVENT ACCESS TO THE SACRED MOSQUE AND DRIVE OUT ITS MEMBERS. PERSECUTION {FITNA} IS WORSE THAN KILLING {QITAL}. Nor will they cease fighting you until THEY TURN YOU BACK FROM YOUR FAITH IF THEY CAN, and IF ANYONE OF YOU TURN BACK FROM THEIR FAITH AND DIE IN UNBELIEF their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter, they will be the companions of the fire and abide therein forever.
I feel really sad that I will have to explain these verses and it wont be self manifesting to people whereas they are most clear, alas we muslims dont do tawassum, tadabbur, tafakkur {reflect, understand, ponder} as enjoined in Quran, our society as a whole is devoid of it.
1 {2:216} - you dislike war  - we muslims including our scholars do a lot of lip service that follow sunnats, follow sunnats here is one sunnat O muslims, prophet and his companions hated war!!! And see for yourself who is a witness, God himself is a witness to it. How many of us muslims follow it?? How many of us muslims hate to fight??? How many??
2- {2:216} you dislike a thing good for you and you like a thing bad for you these lines can only be understood after seeing the argument that God gives regarding war, thus will discuss them after the last verse.
3 {2:217} now Allah gives a context that the muslims who had been given a logic to fight and are ready to fight are unwilling to fight in the sacred months, as they think the logic to fight is not bigger than importance of sacred months. So Allah reiterates the logic adding that the logic to fight is even greater than the sacred months, but in doing so God makes it easy for us to understand the logic as Allah gives the whole logic in one go.
The logic given by Allah in {2:217} goes
a)    persecution is worse than slaughter fitna is worse than kital IN ISLAM WAR IS ONLY ALLOWED ON FITNA NOT ON QITAL. MARK THE WORDS  - WAR IS ONLY ALLOWED ON PERSECUTION AND NOT ON KILLING/SLAUGHTER. If there is killing then one can not fight but if there is persecution only then one can fight. The egs. Of Qital in Quran are Abel the muttaqee, magicians of pharaoh, killing of newborns of Israel and on it God saying go to pharaoh and talk to him gently. You will never find a change in the ways of God, there is no war on Qital/killing, war is only allowed on persecution/Fitna.
b)    What is fitna/persecution?  Wait it is not us who can define what fitna is when God himself has defined it. Allah tells what Fitna is in the previous sentence {2:217} stopping people from the paths of God, to deny him, to prevent access to sacred mosque and drive out its members
This is Fitna/persecution. This criteria is not being met anywhere today in the world, be it Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine etc. yes there is Qital/killing happening but there is no Fitna. One is free to do salat, read Quran, go to mosques etc.
Yes there is killing and there are enemies but there is no Fitna.   For enemies Allah says if we muslims have any faith in promise of Allah {41:34-35} good and evil are not alike, repel evil with goodness and your enemy will become your friend and intimate. Truly today world is filled with people like Hazrat Umar who with sword in his hand went to kill prophet but none of us accursed muslims is like his sister and brother in law. I ask scholars difference between fitna and Qital, and our ignorant scholars do not even know that, O muslims see whom you are trusting are pushing you towards hell, they dont know while they pretend that they know. We have given our affairs in the hands of those who do not even know basic concepts. If you think its a lie test it for yourself, ask a scholar what is fitna & see if he gives this definition of Allah or his own definition, his years of study would become clear to you as he will give his own. Quran {25:30} the prophet will say O my lord my people treated the Quran as foolish nonsense/ignored it/discarded it
c)    Now why is fitna worse than kital? Wait even                                                                            that has Allah answered, Allah tells in the next sentence the reason based on what Gods cause demands, they will turn you back from your faith and if you do you will be put in hell. Remember what Gods cause is paradise for all, but because of persecution that will not be possible and even those on path to paradise will end up in hell, how will one go to paradise if one is prevented from paths of God, how will one grow in faith if one is not allowed access to Quran, and when one wont come to faith he will not go to paradise, whereas the goal of Islam is to take people to paradise and work of prophet is to save people from hell. Seeing this we understand the verse you dislike a thing good for you and you like a thing bad for you for indeed in such a situation one has to fight and end a system in which God will have to put people in hell, whereas prophet knew God wants people in paradise, the system which only & only increases score of hell instead of score of paradise must be stopped, prophet understood that this situation will never let his work be accomplished until he picks the sword and fight to establish a system of Gods cause in which a person desires paradise even for his murderer, like Abel the muttaqee and doesnt die hating someone there is no place for hate in Universe of Allah.
To sum it up the verses {2:216-217} say
1 prophet and companions didnt like war.
2 - war is allowed on fitna and not on Qital ie on persecution and not killing.
3 fitna/persecution is trying to finish Islam completely from its very root.
4 because of fitna people will go in hell whereas God wants them in paradise, so fight and end that system for that is indeed good, overlook how much you hate war.
5 tell me where is patience in Allahs argument for war?? Where?? God does not talk about patience, patience is a different branch and fitna is a different branch, it is those who do not know difference between Fitna and Qital, its they who think patience is the key behind war and no war, no patience is not the key, Gods cause is the key, but then, they also dont know the Gods cause!!!

SUNNAH OF 2 PROPHETS AND WAY OF GOD
Persecution in itself does not allow a muslim to go to war. War is a very serious issue and the religion of Allah ensures that such a situation does not arise that humans start killing each other.
The best examples in this support is from Quran itself
On one hand was pharaoh doing persecution and on other it was Meccans doing persecution,  Allah says to Moses {pbuh} go to pharaoh and talk to him gently{20:44}, Allah says to Muhammad {pbuh} repel evil with goodness {ehsan} {41:34-35}, when persecution increases Allah asks Moses {pbuh} to migrate by night, when persecution increases Allah asks Muhammad{pbuh} to migrate by night, when pharaoh comes from behind to finish off religion of God, God destroys him, when Meccans come from behind to finish off religion of God, God destroys them as it was not possible for muslim army to win any war but God sent angels to fight as comes in Quran.
So we see there is absolutely no change in the ways of our God, they are same throughout history, so the sunnah of 2 highest ranked prophets and to top it, the way of Allah, the master of the 2 prophets lays it down that if there is persecution then migrate and if the persecutor comes from behind either Allah will destroy them or give you power to destroy them.
But this situation does not arise today as nowhere in the world there is persecution today, yes there is killing but there is no persecution. Yes there are enemies but was not hazrat umar too an enemy, hazrat Khalid bin waleed too an enemy, hazrat saad too was an enemy and tell me how many more enemies shall I name??? truly we have left the path and thus we have been humiliated in this world. Allah teaches in {41:34-35} to look at enemy as a potential friend. Woe to us muslims, woe to our scholars who teach fight against pharaoh, curse him while Allah taught go to pharaoh and talk to him gently {20:44}. Surely the worst hell awaits us all.

HE SAID THERE IS PERSECUTION TODAY
I had a friend who was filled with hate and violence and used to quote from Quran and emotionally supported the muslim violent struggles going on in the world.  He used to give the same arguments for war as discussed in second part of this topic, under what scholars of today think it is, he also didnt know what is fitna, what is qital etc. he had a lot of knowledge, indeed his knowledge was immense, but he had no analyses, zero analyses, like a computer, and was only speaking what was fed to him by false scholars above him.
We sat discussing this and when I showed him these verses it was clear to him that these are the criteria in Islam for war and these criteria are not being met anywhere today, as in every country Jamats go, Quran is distributed and salat is offered.
But he was not willing to kill the hate boiling inside. He instantly left his criteria, which he realized, were wrong and the criteria in {2:216-217} is the real criterion. He instantly in order to still support the hate and violence he was arguing for came up with cunning solution. He asked see {2:216-217} says that war is allowed on stopping people from the paths of Allah right? I said right, he said see setting an intrest free economy is a path of Allah, they dont let us set an intrest free economy so war is allowed
His argument is absolutely valid, but valid till the time he is the one who is defining what does stopping people from the paths of Allah mean. When we see the prophets definition his argument stands broken.
I counter asked him keeping in mind the definition of prophet tell me what is a bigger path of Allah Haj/umrah of Kaaba or intrest? he said ofcourse Kaaba is more important as Haj comes under 5 pillars of Islam whereas intrest doesnt. I asked will you go to war and shed blood if somebody stops you from going to Kaaba? Anger was allover his face and my learned friend said is that even a question!!! I said my brother even hazrat Umar would have gone to war but prophet Muhammad {pbuh} the beloved messenger of Allah didnt, he did sulaih Hudaibiya!!! He closed his eyes got up and left in anger as Quran says they run away from admonition like a frightened donkey running from a lion.
He was speechless as he knew what sulaih Hudaibiya was.
For those who dont know about it I will tell in brief, prophet gathered his companions and set off from Medina to visit Kaaba, the holiest of holy place in Islam, but the Meccans sent an army under Khalid bin Waleed to stop them, muslims took a different route and encamped in the valley of Hudaibiya close to Mecca. The Meccans were hell bent on not letting muslims visit the Kaaba, they came to do a treaty in which muslims were not to visit Kaaba and return, while doing the treaty Prophet was humiliated and even his beard was caught by a Meccan!!! All the companions were there including hzrt Abu Bakr Hzrt Umar etc. and none said decapitate his head like our false scholars who have more knowledge then the highest companions do!!! The man who did so was not even slapped, let alone decapitate his head!!! He was left to roam around the muslim camp at will.
All commentators comment the treaty as a humiliating treaty as all the conditions in it favored the Meccans and it appeared as if muslims are scared thats why they are doing so. Muslims felt so humiliated that almost all the companions were in a bad mood and hazrat Umar went and questioned the prophet are we not on truth? ie why this humiliating treaty, we have fought and defeated them many times, Hazrat Umar was not a rebel, he knew Quran, his concern was that war is allowed on barring people from path of God and we are being barred from visiting Kaaba. But the eye of the great prophet saw something else, prophet saw that the Meccans are saying return to Medina and do what you want there, offer salat, preach Quran etc. but just dont visit Kaaba.
The prophet saw that they are stopping me from the path of God is true, but they are not stopping me from the path of God is also true!!! This is wisdom O muslims this is wisdom which we lack. Prophet knew the situation is not like that of Badr where the Meccans wanted to finish off Islam from the very root, here they were not doing so, they were saying go do what you want in Medina. Lo the persecutor was not coming from behind to finish off the one who has migrated, the criteria was not being met. So stopping people from the path of Allah means stopping people from all the paths of Allah, what prophet did and we muslims should follow his sunnah if such a thing happens is that, he molded the public opinion of whole of Arabia and in some time entered victorious to visit the Kaaba!!! He didnt shed blood at Hudaibiya nor at victory of Kaaba.
My friend knew this and thats why got up and left speechless. Truly when truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes for falsehood by its very nature is bound to perish.


TODAY MY COMPLAINT TOMORROW GODS -
Certainly the false pen of the false scribe certainly works falsehood. We have indeed become like people of the book, we along with our scholars have become like donkeys with books laden on our backs but we understand nothing.
O scholars teach the ummah to be like prophet Yusuf {pbuh} that when children of Adam try to murder them and snatch everything from them and jail them in false cases, they become like children of Jacob and forgive the children of Adam, their brothers. O scholars if you want to teach us teach us how to be gentle to a person like Pharaoh if he comes in front of us as Allah taught Moses {pbuh} in {20:44}. O scholars teach us how to be like Abel and increase score of Allah even if it be on our loss, O scholars teach us how to be like Magicians of Pharaoh who died but didnt let a word of curse come on their lips for pharaoh and called it submission to Allah. Teach us how to be like Abraham {pbuh} that when Allah himself was punishing people of Lot he fell in prostration seeking forgiveness for them, O scholars teach us how to be like prophet Muhammad {pbuh} who will fall in prostration seeking forgiveness for those in hell, whom God will be punishing. O scholars dont be scholars of satan, follow that which is clear in Quran, dont try to follow that of the unclear part of which only the wise have knowledge {3:7}. Dont seek authority, political power and glory for yourselves, Allah will never forgive you for taking the whole ummah astray.
O ummah do tawassum, tadabbur, tafakkur {reflect, understand, ponder} today so that you dont cry tomorrow and if these scholars of Satan dont repent and mend their ways, they need to be deposed, they must be deposed so that the world comes on Gods cause.
May Allah guide us all, Aameen, summa-aameen.
Tawassum, Tadabbur, Tafakkur.
Pray for wisdom.


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The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 01 June 2011 at 2:34pm

You claim that scholars without exception form their perception of war in Islam not by the Quran, but by what seems to be obvious to their hearts with historical events in the background.   My question for you is how have you arrived at this assertion?

 You further claim that the conclusions they come to are not cross checked and on top of it they support those conclusions with verses from Quran.  I ask what examples can you give to illustrate this point?

You claim that scholars should have taken a path to first consult Quran, and then historical perspective and lastly conclusions from their heart, for in this way they will arrive at Allah's intention.  My question: What have you relied upon for giving this advice? from Quran? Sunnah? or any major scholar of Islam known to this Islamic community?



Posted By: memyselfn
Date Posted: 13 July 2011 at 4:00pm
We all are speaking about jihad but have we ever for once sit back & mediate the real truth behind it? to be sure of what jihad is all about. and don't forget that you can not fight for God cos all power belongs to the Almighty.


Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 10 August 2012 at 8:15am
somehow i missed these posts
@abuayisha - brother my article above has got 6 subheadings,
- Introduction, what scholars of today think it is, the merciful speaks of war, sunnah of 2 prophets and way of God, he said there is persecution today and today my complaint tomorrow God's

you are just quoting and complaining about the matter in 2nd subheading ie "what scholars of today think it is"....howeever what i have said in it is based on the matter that follow after it in the article.....if you complain about the things in the other subheadings, you point out where is it wrong, youshow me one schoar to day that matches with it or contradicts it telling his view point then only can the discussion take place....
i will take back my words if you prove the matter in the next subheadings wrong, however if you can not....and you can not.....then what i have said is true and we ie the ummah and the scholars have fulfilled the prophecy that you will loose the respect in the world and be beaten even though will be numerous as you will follow the way of jews and christians have come true for us.
we have indeed put the word of the scholar above the word of God.
Dont start saying is it a new fiqh? brother it is not a new ideology but it is a mere presentation of facts of what is there in Quran.
peace be on you
may Allah guide me, you and all the brothers and sisters from Adam {pbuh}


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The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 10 August 2012 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by rememberallah


you are just quoting and complaining
Over a year ago you posted a rather long discussion on Jihad, and I asked that you clarify several points.  There is no need to become defensive.  Perhaps you have shared with us an article authored from other than yourself, therefore can't explain what was intended, but please don't place the burden on me to prove or disprove what you have presented.  It is not intellectually fair to characterize me as complaining simply because I have asked you questions about your post.  This is a discussion board.  Would you like to discuss your article further?  If so, kindly answer the questions I have posed - or don't, totally up to you.
 


Posted By: rememberallah
Date Posted: 11 August 2012 at 9:34am
ofcourse i would like to discuss it furthur,
here are the answers to your three questions -
1 - because their conclusion does not match with Quran
2 - because they take verses out of context and do not view it wholistically, eg they will quote a verse about the issue of war but will not see it in the context of 2:216 which is actually explaining the matter in detail as pointed out in the article i posted
3 - from Quran and sunnah.
peace be on you
sorry if you found my earlier reply hurting.....i have come across many people who see the truth as clear as daylight and yet turn away to stick to the word of their scholar over word of Allah.....that angers me seeing they have become like people of book.



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The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 11 August 2012 at 9:53am
Rememberallah, did you write "War in Islam"?



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