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19ers?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islam for non-Muslims
Forum Discription: Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14671
Printed Date: 25 November 2014 at 11:58pm


Topic: 19ers?
Posted By: Ron Webb
Subject: 19ers?
Date Posted: 09 May 2009 at 10:01am

In several recent discussions we have been talking about various proofs that God exists or that the Quran or other scriptures are authentic.  I am surprised that no one so far has mentioned the so-called "Miracle of 19" that is supposedly encoded into the text of the Quran.  I have heard promoters of the alleged miracle called "19ers".  I don't know how prevalent that term is, but it is an apt name for them.

I know very little about the claim, and not speaking Arabic I am not really able to evaluate it.  If true, it would seem to me very strong evidence of the existence of God and the authenticity of the Quran.  I'm sure that most Muslims here know about it though, and the fact that it hasn't come up in our conversations suggests to me that most people reject it.
 
For those who don't know what I'm talking about, have a look at one of these two Web sites:
http://www.islamrevolution.org/ - http://www.islamrevolution.org/
http://www.submission.org/ - http://www.submission.org/
 
What is the opinion of most Muslims about this?  Has anyone actually sat down with an Arabic copy of the Quran and tried to verify the many mathematical claims being made?


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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.



Replies:
Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

In several recent discussions we have been talking about various proofs that God exists or that the Quran or other scriptures are authentic.  I am surprised that no one so far has mentioned the so-called "Miracle of 19" that is supposedly encoded into the text of the Quran.  I have heard promoters of the alleged miracle called "19ers".  I don't know how prevalent that term is, but it is an apt name for them.

I know very little about the claim, and not speaking Arabic I am not really able to evaluate it.  If true, it would seem to me very strong evidence of the existence of God and the authenticity of the Quran.  I'm sure that most Muslims here know about it though, and the fact that it hasn't come up in our conversations suggests to me that most people reject it.
 
For those who don't know what I'm talking about, have a look at one of these two Web sites:
http://www.islamrevolution.org/ - http://www.islamrevolution.org/
http://www.submission.org/ - http://www.submission.org/
 
What is the opinion of most Muslims about this?  Has anyone actually sat down with an Arabic copy of the Quran and tried to verify the many mathematical claims being made?
 
Hi,
 
I want to thank you very much for posting this topic.
I am new on this forum and your post led me write this comment. I have been interested in Islam for quite some time and I visited your links. If this is true, then I don't see what would prevent anyone who is sincere to become a Muslim. The first website provides a link to calculate "gematrical values" ( http://www.islamrevolution.org/361mainarticle.htm - http://www.islamrevolution.org/361mainarticle.htm , right before part 4.3.4) so apparently one does not need to be an Arabic speaker to verify some of the claims.
I believe we have to be very cautious and no one should take the information you provided for granted without verifying. If it happens to be true, then it would be absolutely incredible, to say the least.
It seems to me that the websites reject a traditional approach of Islam based on hadiths and follow Quran alone. I believe this would be a better
definition of who those people are.
 
Thanks again for sharing the info.
 
 


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 14 May 2009 at 6:19am
Hello Ronn,
 
Yes, you shall find none discussing this. We are not the followers of this person, who is declared as kafir. He believes in understanding Qur'an only by its verses, whereas we understand Quran by the saying of Prophet as well. Anyways we reject his mathematical codes.
 
These two sites you referred are also not referred by we muslims. Moreover, Quran is a divine scripture for the guidance of humanity. What can numbers help us as guidance ? He tried to get a mathematical code from Quran. We don't believe in any such numbers.
 
He is also said to have proclaimed himself as Prophet.
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: islamispeace
Date Posted: 14 May 2009 at 3:17pm
I agree with seekshidayath.  It is much more worthwhile to read the Quran the way it was meant to be.  It is a book of guidance.  Whether a mathematical code exists within it or not is not relevant.  

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Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 14 May 2009 at 4:15pm
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Suspect+1990+Arizona+mosque+murder+arrested+Calgary/1547134/story.html - http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Suspect+1990+Arizona+mosque+murder+arrested+Calgary/1547134/story.html


Posted By: Tony
Date Posted: 17 May 2009 at 10:02am
Originally posted by abuayisha

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Suspect+1990+Arizona+mosque+murder+arrested+Calgary/1547134/story.html - http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Suspect+1990+Arizona+mosque+murder+arrested+Calgary/1547134/story.html
 
Thanks for the link. It is very interesting that the alleged murderer of Rashad Khalifa (who discovered the miracle of 19) got arrested 19 years after the assassination.
 
I have done a little research on the website mentioned by Ron Webb( http://www.islamrevolution.org/rashadsdeathandsura19.htm - http://www.islamrevolution.org/rashadsdeathandsura19.htm ): Rashad Khalifa was stabbed 29 times; he unveiled the miracle of 19 explaining the function of the Quranic initials in the 29 suras that begin with quranic initials. The first verse of sura 19, in the 29 quranic initials system, is the 1230th verse (also gematrical "mathematical value" of Rashad Khalifa), and the last verse of sura 19 is the 1327th verse in the same system.
He was assassinated on the 31st of January 1990 (31/01/1990):
31/01/1990 = 31011990 = 19 x 1230 x 1327.
 
Is this a major sign from above to point at the one who discovered the miracle of 19, or is it a pure coincidence?
Any comments on the above?
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 31 May 2009 at 10:01pm
I should say that the table regarding the numbers are Abjad numbers and are right. I have personally not checked all mathematical relationships that are claimed. They can be easily checked and if they are right it is of course amazing. However, such mathematical relationship can neither be used to exclude a single verse of Quran nor to disprove Hadith in general. Ridiculous and shameful ahadith in Islamic reference books are apparently corrupted and fabricated. However, the true ahadith can be found with historical research and the benchmark provided by Quran.


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 27 February 2010 at 2:41am
Peace,
 
i know the reply is too late.Im actually a new member of this forum.i have verfied the miracle in the Quran Mashallah.Its truely amazing and proves the existance of GOD and that the Quran is truely the word of GOD.The ones who reject this amazing proof from GOD will certainly have no explanations to the Quranic initials.They say there is no need to understand the numbers in the Quran.So what are the Quranic initials there for?Do they have any clear explanation for it?.It is interesting that the Quran actually refers to the number 19 in Surah 74.The discovery of this miracle was in the year 1974.These informations are easily verfiable.The discoverer of this miracle did not claim to be a prophet as mentioned in the above post.He simply claimed to be a messenger of GOD.We all know that the last Prophet was Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh).
 
Peace!


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 03 March 2010 at 6:24am
Originally posted by haris30432

It is interesting that the Quran actually refers to the number 19 in Surah 74.The discovery of this miracle was in the year 1974.
It is especially interesting that this seems to endorse the standard Western calendar, based on the conventional (but inaccurate) birth date of Christ, rather than using the traditional Muslim Hijra calendar.  Oh well, sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence.
 
I have to say I am doubtful that all of those who claim to have independently verified the "miracle of 19" have actually done so (who has the time or the patience to count the number of words in the entire Quran?), but on the other hand I haven't seen any detailed refutations of it either.  I find that surprising.  If it is wrong, it should be easy enough to disprove.


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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 23 March 2010 at 5:10am
Peace Ron,
 
It can be verified easily using your computer.Plus softwares have been developed which u can use to count the words.On a weekly basis,some of us do go throo the math miracle chapter by chapter,verse by verse and yes its time consuming but definitely at the end the result is all worth the hard work!Praise GOD!..take care.!
 
Peace!


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 27 March 2010 at 8:14am
Originally posted by haris30432

Peace Ron,
 
It can be verified easily using your computer.Plus softwares have been developed which u can use to count the words.On a weekly basis,some of us do go throo the math miracle chapter by chapter,verse by verse and yes its time consuming but definitely at the end the result is all worth the hard work!Praise GOD!..take care.!
 
Peace!
 
Why don't you report the results of your weekly investigations here?  I'm sure we'd all like to know


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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 27 March 2010 at 12:15pm
Peace,
 
Wel.. i ve not come across anything new yet.I and some of my friends are simply verifying the information thats already out there.For a start,we went throo the basic facts like the Bismillah being 19 letters,the first revelation being 19 verses,the number or chapters 114 ,the discoverer's name coded in the Quran etc etc..We are planning in verifying the counts of the Initialed Surahs(chapters) now.And God willing we plan to start with the smaller Surahs first.Id love to post the verifications here but im not so sure its welcome here.So id suggest you google the information and God willing  u can verify it.If u would like any help from my side,please do contact me.Peace... Take care..
 
 
Haris :)


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 27 March 2010 at 12:27pm
Peace,
 
There are many who say follow Quran Alone without any solid basis.The math miracle provides the irrefutable evidence to support it and why any other source other than the Quran is not acceptable by GOD.And this is one of the major reasons why most of the so-called muslims reject the math miracle and the truths that was revealed throo it.Well..at the end of the day there is no compulsion in religion.The miracle will certainly serve its purpose.GOD willing!


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 March 2010 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Id love to post the verifications here but im not so sure its welcome here.
 
Well, from my experience here, this forum welcomes a wide diversity of opinions and points of view.  As long as you tell the truth as you see it and are respectful of others, I don't think anyone will object.
 
So id suggest you google the information and God willing  u can verify it.If u would like any help from my side,please do contact me.Peace... Take care..
 
It's kind of difficult for me to verify it without speaking Arabic.  Yes, I can Google it, and I have; but it would be foolish to trust something just because I found it on the Internet.  I would need to ask questions about the methods and criteria being used, and I can't generally do that with Internet Web pages.
 
For instance, I read somewhere that in order to make his "miracle" work, Dr. Khalifa had to make some minor changes ("corrections") to the Quran -- adding/removing words, changing spellings, etc.  How minor were those changes and can they be justified on any other basis?


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Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Qwertyfshag
Date Posted: 28 March 2010 at 5:42pm
this is a conspiracy against Muslims.  the code for 19 doesn't line up with all the Koran.  it only lines up with portions of the Koran.  so this website and organisation want to change the Koran so it fits the code.< id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" ="">


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Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 29 March 2010 at 12:35am

Peace Ron,

Well...if u look at the Quran,an overwhelming part or i shud probably say almost the whole of the Quran perfectly fits with the math miracle.However,there were two verses and an initial(nun)  which stood out like soar thumps and messed up the math miracle in the Quran.Since these were the only few places where the code did not make up,their authenticity was suspected.After further study and refering  to other historical evidences,Dr Khalifa came to the conclusion that these two verses werent a part of the Quran and that they were falsely injected into the Quran and  also that the initial Nun was actually Nun waw Nun as in the original text of the Quran.The oldest copy of the Quran available in Tashkent,confirms the Initial. One non mathematical reason for their (false verses)suspicion wud be that the Sura(chapter)9 is a Medinan(revealed in Madina)Surah but the last two verses are Meccan!How can a Medinan Surah hav meccan verses.From historical islamic sources including the hadiths we know that every single verse in the Quran was verified by a multiplicity of witnesses except verses 128 and 129 of Sura 9.These verses were found with only  Khuzeimah ibn thaabet al ansaary.How can these meccan verses be found with Khuzeimah a late medinan Muslim?.Despite these and many other discrepancies none dared to question their authenticity.The discovery of the math miracle in 1974 proves the authenticity of every element of the Quran.Also over 70 other reasons for their exclusion were also submitted.These are available for verification online. Unfortunately,for some this appears to be a manipulation or tampering of the Quran,to fit the code but thats absolutely not the case.If a proper and unbiased  study of the code  is done,this can be clear understood.
 
 
Peace!


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 April 2010 at 1:12am
Originally posted by haris30432

Peace Ron,

Well...if u look at the Quran,an overwhelming part or i shud probably say almost the whole of the Quran perfectly fits with the math miracle.However,there were two verses and an initial(nun)  which stood out like soar thumps and messed up the math miracle in the Quran.Since these were the only few places where the code did not make up,their authenticity was suspected.After further study and refering  to other historical evidences,Dr Khalifa came to the conclusion that these two verses werent a part of the Quran and that they were falsely injected into the Quran and  also that the initial Nun was actually Nun waw Nun as in the original text of the Quran.The oldest copy of the Quran available in Tashkent,confirms the Initial. One non mathematical reason for their (false verses)suspicion wud be that the Sura(chapter)9 is a Medinan(revealed in Madina)Surah but the last two verses are Meccan!How can a Medinan Surah hav meccan verses.From historical islamic sources including the hadiths we know that every single verse in the Quran was verified by a multiplicity of witnesses except verses 128 and 129 of Sura 9.These verses were found with only  Khuzeimah ibn thaabet al ansaary.How can these meccan verses be found with Khuzeimah a late medinan Muslim?.Despite these and many other discrepancies none dared to question their authenticity.The discovery of the math miracle in 1974 proves the authenticity of every element of the Quran.Also over 70 other reasons for their exclusion were also submitted.These are available for verification online. Unfortunately,for some this appears to be a manipulation or tampering of the Quran,to fit the code but thats absolutely not the case.If a proper and unbiased  study of the code  is done,this can be clear understood.
 
 
Peace!

Ron I would like to interject here for a quick comment!
http://www.waze.com/blog/the-19-most-complex-and-dangerous-roads-in-the-world/ - http://www.waze.com/blog/the-19-most-complex-and-dangerous-roads-in-the-world/
Here is list of 19 most complex and dangerous roads in the world but the road you are on is more dangerous than them all cuz it will surely lead you to hell for what you are making up about the Quraan...As I told you in another thread you are doing this pitch for a tragic man who start a cult just  cuz there is no prohibition of this kind of stuff in the US! As reported his followers were not called Muslims so you are not a Muslim either! correct?


Posted By: haris30432
Date Posted: 09 April 2010 at 10:43am
Correct!Im certainly not one of those whom u consider Muslim,but that doesnt matter does it?coz anyone can call themselves Muslim or Non Muslim.God knows best so i leave the judgement of that to him.
 
Here is list of 19 most complex and dangerous roads in the world but the road you are on is more dangerous than them all cuz it will surely lead you to hell for what you are making up about the Quraan.
 
 
Well for your kind info..the same hell that you are threatning me with has angels assigned by GOD and check out below how many of them.So may be u should start thinking which road you are on.

[74:30] Over it is nineteen.*

[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19)
 
 
Peace!!


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ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!



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