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Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14535
Printed Date: 25 October 2014 at 6:51pm


Topic: -
Posted By: hat2010
Subject: -
Date Posted: 11 April 2009 at 7:43am
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Replies:
Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 11 April 2009 at 10:07am
 
One law for the Muslims here, and one for everyone else.  Sharia Law in full swing, even on a forum :-)  Same old same old. Double standards and hypocrisy.
 
You are no 'peacemaker'.
 
 
Very selective in your deletions.
 
IF your 'friend' wants some education on this matter Jamal, I would be glad to help him/her if I can.  But will do it privately.  They can email me.  
 
I've seen as much as I need to see, and know here now. But will correspond via email if  it's helpful. And it will not be to defend Christianity/Islam or any other religion.
 
I have only ever tried to speak about the abuses in all religions, and how serious they are - having known them personally. Spending many long hours trying to understand that it had nothing to do with the 'true' religion or the 'message' that some people - priests/imams or anyone else, choose to abuse - in seeking the abuse/rape of children, or anyone else.
 
 
Some people here could see that and corresponded with me on those particular issues. But bigots have myopic vision. Not your fault. Maybe it religious 'abuse' :-)
 
 
Your job here, at least I thought was part of being Muslim, is to draw people to the greater desire for understanding your religon - not putting them off it completely.  And you my friend have played, and are playing with fire, a fire that will come back and really 'bite' your ass.
 
 
Good luck to you.
 
 Gulliver, I edited your post politely. And then you edited and continued your violation. Please refrain from editing mod-edited posts. 
 
 


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Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 11 April 2009 at 10:36am

It is important that we all comply with guidelines and stick to the topic.

Peace


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Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 11 April 2009 at 11:56am
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Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 11 April 2009 at 12:23pm
I am a revert to Islam. I am the only Muslim in my maternal/paternal families. Many of my friends are non-Muslim and I live in the U.S. where virtually all of my neighbors are non-Muslim. Surrounded by and related to non-Muslims as I am on a daily basis, I am never privy to the types of abuse that occurs here. Never.
 
I assume this is because most people, whatever their belief, would find it extremely rude to walk into someone's home and barrage them with highly offensive remarks, disguised as queries, regarding their religion. Nor would most normal people accost one on the street and do the same.
 
As I read the the various topics posted on the forum and the subsequent posts I am often amused and sometimes amazed at how indignant non-Muslims become when we respond to their posts in kind. 
Topics such as "Sad", "Shariah Law?", "Not Necessarily Domestic Violence", and "Pray for the future women of the world", "Islam a religion of love?", and "Reason why there are no homosexuals in Islam", etc... are openly insulting and posted in an attempt to protray Muslims and Islam in as bad a light as possible. These topics are eagerly jumped upon and made a "cause concern" by most non-Muslims on this forum, and there seems to be no sensitivity to the fact that the Muslims posting here might find this offensive.
 
However, let someone post a topic such as this one, even if done as an example, and we are immediately accused of double standards and hypocrisy.
 
While I suppose it was perfectly acceptible to post about Muslims raping children to force conversion, it is not quite so acceptible to post about priests raping children because they could do so with impunity. The difference here is that this is one topic, not one of hundreds.
 
I guess it is not so very pleasant having a glaring spotlight thrust upon something that has absolutely nothing to do with your religion or your personal belief system yet  was perpetrated by those who claim to share the same faith so it is suddenly part of YOUR RELIGION, and you are personally responsible for answering to it or explaining why. 
 
I believe this forum was created for the purpose of exchanging ideas, peaceful interaction, the sharing of culture and beliefs. It has instead become a place where we, the hosts, are under constant sniper attack and are accused of being unhospitable and not "being Muslim" when we shoot back. Well, every once in a while it's nice to take the target off of your own back...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 11 April 2009 at 12:33pm

Don't take it so personally, Gulliver.  It's not incumbent upon you to defend the indefensible or to answer for anyone's sins except your own: which is, I think, one of the reasons why Jam posted this, as an exercise. 

 

God, by way of Prophet Jeremiah, has an answer, and not a single one in the Curia or upon the so-called Throne of St. Peter -or, for that matter, within the Reformed (Protestant) churches- can ever annul it:

 

"Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD." (Jeremiah 23:1)

 

Serv



Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 11 April 2009 at 2:31pm
 
Hi folks
 
It is difficult for me not to be sensitive about this particular issue. I just had an email tonight from a friend who's back from a holiday in US.  He says, 'you have been very quiet recently', but understands how we all need a break at times. We deal with this issue day in and day out, week in and week out, month in and month out, year in and year out, and it's like swimming against the tide. I am very tired 'fighting'. I was having a break from it, and not expecting to have it shoved in my face in this place too. I was really enjoying my explorations of Islam, and sharing things people actually share. And most recently the poetry of Rumi. I was listening to it a lot yesterday and found it very uplifting. Beautiful stuff.   Anway - no matter about that. But it is something I know a LOT about, not least from personal experience, and maybe one time will talk some more about it, if someone wants. I was driven from 'religion' for many years because of it, and because I did not 'practice' my faith - believed I was nolonger fit to be called 'Christian' either - even though seeking to live a life of belief in God, and trying to do 'good' to others. I see others driven away too - equating God with religious/spiritual abuse. It is the greatest sin of all in my view. I had to fight a monumental battle which I am not long out of, with the 'hierarchy,' and one reason I fought so hard was that I would not give them the power over something they had no right to - the real good in that religion - the beautiful in it - the truly spiritual. They tried to rob it from me once. I was not letting them do it again. It needs another reformation methinks. And it's there, all that good and beauty. Just as it is in Islam. People judge Islam from ignorance - terrorism etc etc etc. That hurts those who know better, believe better in that religion. It's the same with other religions too - if it seems we judge another religion because of those who abuse relgious power. And some of us really do/should know better.  
 
Sorry Jamal. You are right to ask about these things, cause they all come under the umbrella of religious/spiritual abuses. I ask them all the time, and believe me my friend, you cannot even begin to imagine how I have fought and seek to alleviate the suffering of the 'abused' in this country. I'd do the same in Islam, if I were a Muslim. It does NOT mean Islam is bad. It's only about fighting abuses in religion, any religion, that turn people away from God. I also found that the more devout very often were just as hard to 'fight' as the clerics/scholarly types. They perceived an attack on anything to do with the religion as an attack on their faith. I had family members who knew the hell I'd been through not want 'to know'. It's insane. But that is all part of sexual abuse - and spiritual abuse of entire families/communities/societies. It's so much about power and secrecy. Sexual abuse pervades all strata of society, and often the society, or religion is, and chooses to remain, in denial over that issue and how bad it might actually be. I have been told that a Dublin Inquiry about to be released is DEVASTATING. Not devastating enough in my belief. In the sense of hitting those who need hit hardest. The sooner that lot are brought to their knees and stripped of all the power Christ never intended they have - temporal power, the better. A Phoenix may rise from the ashes of that rot and filth.
 
When I highlight any abuse, it is an abuse of religion generally - that hurts any individual to the degree they believe it's somehow 'God' who does this to them, abuses them, and it happens all the time in all religions, and so very many levels. I am highly sensitive to religious abuse of any kind in any religion and I will fight that before I seek to defend the religion.
 
 
Anway - I went off and listened to some Rumi on youtube. It's superb stuff.
 
Now I am going to bed to really switch off from all of this for a while.
 
To answer your question from my experience, much questionning, reading and learning Jamal - no, the bible does not condone child abuse, or abuse of anyone. Not in my understanding anyway. Priests are not told, nor allowed to abuse children.
 
Is it covered up ?!!

A most definite, YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I can personally testify to that from my own experience. But they still have not succeeded in driving me away completely. The journey continues.
 
Good night and God bless folks.
 


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 11 April 2009 at 7:45pm
As Salamu Alaikum Sister Shasta'sAunt. I too am the only Muslim in my family.Alhamduillah!We are Bless for this we over come fitna on the daily and we know how the deal with non-Muslims because we know were they are coming from, alot of them here do not understand that.I also feel that some get to push the envelope here on this forum everyday.Even though we are giving them Dawah.I use to always post that (This is an Islamic forum so it is only out of respect to greet eachother properly)Muslim or non-Muslim.I seen a DVD on a Kutbah given by Sheik Ahmed Didot called Dawah or Destruction.During his speach he talks about after he finishes and go for diner the other Muslims ask him why are you bothering the Christians? [IMG]smileys/smiley19.gif" align="middle" />


Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 12 April 2009 at 12:53am
As Christian, I have to face the real situation of our church, and this is one of the best examples that make me feel away from the general line of the Vatican.

I believe in Jesus Church, that church which is spread over the world taking care of the sick people, giving food and medicines in the third world, or just helping the poor people inside the most developed countries (for instance, in mine, Spain, you will find social centers to take care of disadvantaged.

Personally, I think first of all that the rape has no excuse, and if we are talking about a nine years old girl, it's worst, because she has no way to defend herself. The paper of the Church on this matter should be to help the girl just to go on with her life, giving her the medical attention she may need, and NEVER to see her as a guilty.

A nine years old girl is only that, a girl, and she has to be supported by the whole society on this trouble.

Regards


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 12 April 2009 at 2:51am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt


 
I believe this forum was created for the purpose of exchanging ideas, peaceful interaction, the sharing of culture and beliefs. It has instead become a place where we, the hosts, are under constant sniper attack and are accused of being unhospitable and not "being Muslim" when we shoot back. Well, every once in a while it's nice to take the target off of your own back...
 


Assalamualaikum sis Shasta's Aunt

Did you realize that on the first page of this section alone, there are more topics by non-Muslims than by Muslims alone?

I have no doubt that they have a concerted effort to belittle Islam or Muslims in an indirect way. They are constantly on attack mode towards Islam and Muslims. This is one of their strategy. They have an army of people like Apollo or Believer who I think are not here for the sake of Truth, but paid by some organizations that would like to defame Islam.

These people will come and go because at a certain point, they will get fed up due to the thick armour of defence that we Muslims had prepared. And others will take over from where they left or will start all over again.

We have nothing to be afraid of because we have Allah Al-Haqq - The Truth!


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 12 April 2009 at 12:24pm
Salams,Nur Ilahi(We have nothing to be afraid of because we have Allah Al-Haqq)Allahuakbar!


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 April 2009 at 12:30pm
My church does not excumunicate.  We do not condone abortion because killing the babies doesn't erase the fact that there was a violent rape.
 
Would seeing the baby daily be a horrible reminder of the rape, or if you could get past the rape the baby might end up being a source of joy. 
 
If the baby was adopted out it for sure would become a joy for a childless couple.
 
In a situation like this my Pastor would counsel, discuss all options for the mother and 9 year old and give them support in any discision.  Pastor would also visit the rapist in jail!
 
 
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/12/saudi.child.marriage/index.html - http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/12/saudi.child.marriage/index.html
 
By Mohammed Jamjoom
(CNN) -- A Saudi judge has refused for a second time to annul a marriage between an 8-year-old girl and a 47-year-old man, a relative of the girl told CNN.

The most recent ruling, in which the judge upheld his original verdict, was handed down Saturday in the Saudi city of Onaiza, where late last year the same judge rejected a petition from the girl's mother, who was seeking a divorce for her daughter.

The relative said the judge, Sheikh Habib Al-Habib, "stuck by his earlier verdict and insisted that the girl could petition the court for a divorce once she reached puberty." The family member, who requested anonymity, added that the mother will continue to pursue a divorce for her daughter.

The case, which has drawn criticism from local and international rights groups, came to light in December when al-Habib declined to annul the marriage on a legal technicality. The judge ruled the girl's mother -- who is separated from the girl's father -- was not the girl's legal guardian and therefore could not represent her in court, according to Abdullah al-Jutaili, the mother's lawyer.

The girl's father, according to the attorney, arranged the marriage in order to settle his debts with the man, who is "a close friend" of his. At the time of the initial verdict, the judge required the girl's husband to sign a pledge that he would not have sex with her until she reaches puberty, al-Jutaili told CNN. The judge ruled that when the girl reaches puberty, she will have the right to request a divorce by filing a petition with the court, the lawyer said.

Last month, an appeals court in the http://topics.cnn.com/topics/saudi_arabia - Saudi capital of Riyadh declined to certify the original ruling, in essence rejecting al-Habib's verdict, and sent the case back to al-Habib for reconsideration.

Under the complicated Saudi legal process, the appeals court ruling meant that the marriage was still in effect, but that a challenge to the marriage was still ongoing. The appeals court in Riyadh will now take up the case again and a hearing is scheduled for next month, according to the relative.

The issue of child marriage has been a hot-button topic in the deeply conservative kingdom recently. While rights groups have been petitioning the government to enact laws that would protect children from this type of marriage, the kingdom's top cleric has said that it's OK for girls as young as 10 to wed.

"It is incorrect to say that it's not permitted to marry off girls who are 15 and younger," Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh, the kingdom's grand mufti, said in remarks last January quoted in the regional Al-Hayat newspaper. "A girl aged 10 or 12 can be married. Those who think she's too young are wrong and they are being unfair to her."

Al-Sheikh reportedly made the remarks when he was asked during a lecture about parents forcing their underage daughters to marry.

"We hear a lot in the media about the marriage of underage girls," he said, according to the newspaper. "We should know that Sharia law has not brought injustice to women."

Sharia law is Islamic law. Saudi Arabia follows a strict interpretation of Islam called Wahhabism.

CNN was unable to reach government officials for comment.

Christoph Wilcke, a Saudi Arabia researcher for Human Rights Watch, told CNN in December that his organization has heard of many other cases of child marriages.

"We've been hearing about these types of cases once every four or five months because the Saudi public is now able to express this kind of anger -- especially so when girls are traded off to older men," Wilcke said.

Wilcke explained that while Saudi ministries may make decisions designed to protect children, "It is still the religious establishment that holds sway in the courts, and in many realms beyond the court."

Last December, Zuhair al-Harithi, a spokesman for the Saudi government-run Human Rights Commission, said his organization is fighting against child marriages.

"The Human Rights Commission opposes child marriages in Saudi Arabia," al-Harithi said. "Child marriages violate international agreements that have been signed by Saudi Arabia and should not be allowed." He added that his organization has been able to intervene and stop at least one child marriage from taking place.

Wajeha al-Huwaider, co-founder of the Society of Defending Women's Rights in Saudi Arabia, told CNN that achieving human rights in the kingdom means standing against those who want to "keep us backward and in the dark ages."

She said the marriages cause girls to "lose their sense of security and safety. Also, it destroys their feeling of being loved and nurtured. It causes them a lifetime of psychological problems and severe depression."



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 13 April 2009 at 7:41am
Salams,believer are you trying to relate the two stories?


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 13 April 2009 at 7:55am
Believer are you trying to change the subject?

We were speaking of priests who are supposed to be a man of God. But instead they had abused their power and many lives of innocent children were affected physically and spiritually.

The reason why this happened is because Christianity is a man-made religion. The idea of priests not allowed to have sex, is totally contradictory to man's nature. God Almighty knows that sex is part of a human's need. In Islam, if circumstances permit, the man could even have 4 wives. And indeed how true it is. There are many non-Muslim men who have one legal wife and at least another illegal one by fornication for example.

To deprive a man of his natural sexual desire is paramount to torture. I pity these people. There were/are many Muslim scholars, past and present who succeed spiritually at the same time having families of their own.

A True God is a God that knows what is best for His servants. Because He is Al-Aleem - MOST KNOWING.





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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 13 April 2009 at 8:24am
As Salamu Alaikum Sister Nur Ilahi.Nicely put.May Allah Bless you.


Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 13 April 2009 at 10:23am
 
You are generalising again Nur. It is only within Roman Catholicism that celibacy was made mandatory for Roman Catholic priests. The Eastern Orthodox do allow their clerics to marry, as does the Church of England, and many others. It is about power, most of it for sure - and controlling people by abusing that power. It is not natural to demand people cannot share intimacy, have sexual relations with those they love.
 
Not all people need sex. A lot of people can and do live perfectly well as celibates. We're not all sex mad horn balls who can't master our baser passions ;-) lol Women are not the demure litte creatures you'd have us believe in matters of sex. Women are often as bad, and worse than men in matters of sexuality. Didn't you know the place is coming down with nymphettes.
 
All those men with umpteen wives and harlots in the closets. Do they love them all, or is it more about the sex lives of the men ? Be very hard to love four people equally. And for four women to be happy sharing their man.  And what's with the sex addicts paradise ? Not that I believe that is what the Qu'ran speaks about at all. But some do interpret it that way. Sounds worse than Sodom and Gomorrah.
 
You need to learn more about Christianity Nur, fore you try and make the kinds of generalised claims you do. You only make yourself sound foolish and I was beginning to believe you knew what you were talking about.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 April 2009 at 4:11pm
Those of us who believe in accountability and God as overseer of all affairs will continue to strive for the truth. We have the hope of that day, when all will be justly dealt. What hope they have that decieve themselves when they try to decieve others?
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 April 2009 at 4:39pm

Exactly honeto.

I don't see the difference between the marriage of an 8 year old to a 47 year old and the rape of the 9 year old by her stepfather.
 
Gulliver mentioned the double standard and I was simply backing this up with fact.
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 13 April 2009 at 6:10pm
Originally posted by Gulliver

Do they love them all, or is it more about the sex lives of the men ? Be very hard to love four people
Salams, Gulliver.It is possible to love more than one. Love is not limited to just one,though it can be hard I know first hand Two wives, even one is hard.(LoL) Gulliver The Qur'an says marry two, three or four but one is best.You may not love them equally but you still love them both the same( get it)You still have two be able to support them both equally thats love isnt it?If you ask your parents(or your children) ask if you have more love for one of your sibblings (or children) than the other,what would they say?


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 14 April 2009 at 6:42am
Originally posted by honeto

Those of us who believe in accountability and God as overseer of all affairs will continue to strive for the truth. We have the hope of that day, when all will be justly dealt. What hope they have that decieve themselves when they try to decieve others?
 
Hasan


Assalamualaika Hasan,

You are so right.

We can deceive others, but we cannot deceive ourselves. The Truth is within ourselves and the more we struggle with the truth, the more peace will evade us.

Only by accepting the Truth, then our Pure Soul will be back to the Fitrah and be at Peace because it had found its Home.


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 14 April 2009 at 6:45am
Gulliver wrote -
<>

It is about power, most of it for sure - and controlling people by abusing that power.


The problem with Christianity is having hierarchy in their institutions. The power given by man themselves not God Almighty.


Our piety and humility only God knows because He is Al-Aleem - Most Knowing. In Islam a person with highest taqwa (humility in piety) is what matters to God.


Gulliver I  did not say that people cannot share intimacy or have sexual relations with those they love. That is against nature. if it is in accordance with nature by all means. What is against nature is to prey on innocent defenceless children. Or having it with other than your one's spouse. Or doing it within the same sex.

 

Here I quote from this link - http://www.islamawareness.net/Polygamy/why.html - http://www.islamawareness.net/Polygamy/why.html

"4. Qur'an permits limited polygyny As I mentioned earlier, Qur'an is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says 'marry only one'. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur'an: 'Marry woman of your choice in twos' threes' or fours' but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, (with them), then only one' [Al-Qur'an 4:3]

Before the Qur'an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals with them justly. In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says: 'It is very difficult to be just and fair between women'. [Al-Qur'an (4:129)]

Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to marry more than one wife."

 

You need to learn more about Christianity Nur, fore you try and make the kinds of generalised claims you do. You only make yourself sound foolish and I was beginning to believe you knew what you were talking about.

 

I do not know that one needs to be so very intelligent in order to know that there are paedophiles in the Church?




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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 14 April 2009 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Gulliver wrote -
<>

 

I do not know that one needs to be so very intelligent in order to know that there are paedophiles in the Church?


 
I'm sorry, but there are paedophiles everywhere, it's not matter of religion. Even in your religion, there are terrible histories about family rapes, or iman's abuses, so please, don't mix the discussion. I could talk about how many Spanish women were raped by muslims in their own houses, some of them over 80 years!! But they were not muslims, they were just criminals!
 
Please, make the difference between the sick people (I don't care if they are pastors or not, they are sick and dangerous) and the religion and it's meanings.
 
By my side, I'm part of the Catholic Church, in which the pastors are not allowed to get married or to have relation, because they make a comittement where they accept that situation. They give their lives to God as well as the people who may ask them for help (no matter who). If they where married, their priority would be their family, and in this way, the priorioty is just to follow God's Word and to help everyone.
 
What I see is that there is no interest here in finding something common to both religions, but just to tell the worst things of the other one, and it's really sad, because we have the necessary knowledge to grow with the other's words. I fell sorry for that.
 
Best regards


Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 14 April 2009 at 5:28pm
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Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 15 April 2009 at 6:25am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt


 
I assume this is because most people, whatever their belief, would find it extremely rude to walk into someone's home and barrage them with highly offensive remarks, disguised as queries, regarding their religion. Nor would most normal people accost one on the street and do the same.
 
As I read the the various topics posted on the forum and the subsequent posts I am often amused and sometimes amazed at how indignant non-Muslims become when we respond to their posts in kind. 
Topics such as "Sad", "Shariah Law?", "Not Necessarily Domestic Violence", and "Pray for the future women of the world", "Islam a religion of love?", and "Reason why there are no homosexuals in Islam", etc... are openly insulting and posted in an attempt to protray Muslims and Islam in as bad a light as possible. These topics are eagerly jumped upon and made a "cause concern" by most non-Muslims on this forum, and there seems to be no sensitivity to the fact that the Muslims posting here might find this offensive.
 
However, let someone post a topic such as this one, even if done as an example, and we are immediately accused of double standards and hypocrisy.
 
While I suppose it was perfectly acceptible to post about Muslims raping children to force conversion, it is not quite so acceptible to post about priests raping children because they could do so with impunity. The difference here is that this is one topic, not one of hundreds.
 
I guess it is not so very pleasant having a glaring spotlight thrust upon something that has absolutely nothing to do with your religion or your personal belief system yet  was perpetrated by those who claim to share the same faith so it is suddenly part of YOUR RELIGION, and you are personally responsible for answering to it or explaining why. 
 
I believe this forum was created for the purpose of exchanging ideas, peaceful interaction, the sharing of culture and beliefs. It has instead become a place where we, the hosts, are under constant sniper attack and are accused of being unhospitable and not "being Muslim" when we shoot back. Well, every once in a while it's nice to take the target off of your own back...
 


Nicely put. My sentiments exactly.


On a seperate note,
What if we replied to each 'Believer' in the same manner? That would make things so much interesting. What happened to the Christian teachings of turning the other cheek? (referring to Believer's CNN article). Or does 'your' church have a different take on that?




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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 15 April 2009 at 11:46am
Originally posted by believer

Exactly honeto.

I don't see the difference between the marriage of an 8 year old to a 47 year old and the rape of the 9 year old by her stepfather.
 
Gulliver mentioned the double standard and I was simply backing this up with fact.
 
 
The difference as I see it, according to the article YOU posted, is that the 47 year old man has been barred from having sex with the 8 year old until she reaches puberty at which time she can sue for divorce, so the sexual aspect will probably never happen. Whereas the 9 year old has already been raped by her stepfather.   See the difference?


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Pati
Date Posted: 19 April 2009 at 1:34am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

[
 
The difference as I see it, according to the article YOU posted, is that the 47 year old man has been barred from having sex with the 8 year old until she reaches puberty at which time she can sue for divorce, so the sexual aspect will probably never happen. Whereas the 9 year old has already been raped by her stepfather.   See the difference?
 
Are you sure of that? How many times we heard about girls scaping from their old husbands? The last one I heard was in Yemen, when a girl asked for divorce from her husband because of his abuses. He was 22 years older than her.
http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=elgordoylaflaca&message.id=3877696 - http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=elgordoylaflaca&message.id=3877696
As usually, and it's something common to all the religions, the theory is not the same than the practice.
 
 
 


Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 19 April 2009 at 1:43am
-

-------------


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 April 2009 at 10:24am
chrysalis- Did you not see my reply?
 
My church does not excumunicate.  We do not condone abortion because killing the babies doesn't erase the fact that there was a violent rape.
 
Would seeing the baby daily be a horrible reminder of the rape, or if you could get past the rape the baby might end up being a source of joy. 
 
If the baby was adopted out it for sure would become a joy for a childless couple.
 
In a situation like this my Pastor would counsel, discuss all options for the mother and 9 year old and give them support in any discision.  Pastor would also visit the rapist in jail!
 
OK I get it.   Muslims condone marriage of an 8 year old to a 47 year old, with no concern of what might go on behind closed doors, because it is all legal.
 
Turn the other cheeck:
 
"Back in the days of Christ, the Roman "masters" who were the indisputed rulers of man on earth, indisputed by all except Jesus and his followers of course. The accepted practice it seems was if you encountered a Roman soldier on your way and there was some mild altercation between you and he, he would strike you upon your cheek, often wearing a glove. The "proper" response was for you, the "peasant," to immediately kneel bow your head, exposing the back of your neck. This of course would signal submission. If the anger was not quenched by this display of subservience, you were to prostrate yourself, putting your forehead against the ground and the Roman solider would place his boot on your neck (heard of the saying: "Under the heel of Rome?").
 
"But along came Jesus the Christ, who said: Don't kneel to Rome, don't bow before earthly authority. Bow only to the Father in Heaven -- IF A MAN STRIKES YOU UPON YOUR CHEEK, TURN THE OTHER CHEEK! And act of absolute defiance and resistance to the tyranny of Rome."
 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 April 2009 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by Pati

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

[
 
The difference as I see it, according to the article YOU posted, is that the 47 year old man has been barred from having sex with the 8 year old until she reaches puberty at which time she can sue for divorce, so the sexual aspect will probably never happen. Whereas the 9 year old has already been raped by her stepfather.   See the difference?
 
Are you sure of that? How many times we heard about girls scaping from their old husbands? The last one I heard was in Yemen, when a girl asked for divorce from her husband because of his abuses. He was 22 years older than her.
http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=elgordoylaflaca&message.id=3877696 - http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=elgordoylaflaca&message.id=3877696
As usually, and it's something common to all the religions, the theory is not the same than the practice.
 
 
 
 
The only thing I am sure of in both of these cases is that sex has already occurred in one and not yet in the other. What will happen is beyond my knowledge.
 
 


-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 22 April 2009 at 1:33pm
  • Huckaby, a Sunday school teacher, was arrested last week
  •  
    (CNN) -- Nothing about Melissa Huckaby, a Sunday school teacher at her grandfather's California church, would indicate she's capable of killing her daughter's 8-year-old friend as police allege, relatives say.
    Melissa Huckaby faces charges of kidnapping and murder in the death of 8-year-old Sandra Cantu.
     
    Huckaby, expected to be arraigned Tuesday in the death of Sandra Cantu, is a wonderful mother who is at ease with other children, relatives say. Cantu's body was found last week in a suitcase submerged in a pond.

    But they acknowledge her life was less than tranquil before moving into her grandparents' Tracy, California, home last year. They say she's had difficulties dealing with a divorce, and she's had legal problems, including bankruptcy and a theft conviction.

    "She is a good, church-going girl, but she has had her challenges," California resident Cynthia Browning, Huckaby's great-aunt, told the San Francisco Chronicle.

    Huckaby, 28, was arrested on charges of http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Murder_and_Homicide - murder and kidnapping late Friday, four days after the suitcase with Cantu's body was found at a dairy farm's pond in Tracy, not far from the church run by Huckaby's grandfather.

    Cantu was last seen alive March 27 in the Tracy mobile home park where she lived. It's the same park where Huckaby lives with her 5-year-old daughter and grandparents. The two children were close friends and played frequently, Tracy police said.

    Investigators believe the suitcase is Huckaby's and that she lied about it being missing, http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Police - police said. Police Sgt. Tony Sheneman told reporters over the weekend that he didn't know the motive in the slaying, and he declined to say whether Huckaby confessed but said "she revealed enough information that we had probable cause to arrest her."

    On Sunday, Huckaby's relatives told reporters in Tracy they were shocked by the allegations against her.

    "The information we've been given regarding the charges against [her] are completely out of character for her," said one man, who identified himself only as a relative. Another relative, also declining to give her name, said Huckaby "is a fantastic mother, very loving."

    Huckaby, who grew up in Orange County, http://topics.cnn.com/topics/California - California , moved in with her grandparents about eight months ago, according to the Contra Costa Times. She did so in part so that she'd have more time "to take better care of her daughter, who ... gets sick a lot," Browning told the Chronicle.

    Huckaby divorced a few years ago and has had a hard time coping, her father, Brian Lawless of Orange County, told the Chronicle. She has fought depression, her relatives said, according to the newspaper.

    She also has faced legal difficulties. Citing court records, the Tracy Press reported she pleaded no contest January 9 to a felony charge of second-degree commercial burglary and a misdemeanor charge of property theft.

    A criminal complaint says she was jailed in Los Angeles County on a property theft conviction in 2006 and that she tried to steal from a store in November 2008. According to the complaint, she was on probation in San Joaquin County and was due back in court Friday.

    And she filed for bankruptcy in 2003, reporting credit card and medical debt, according to CNN affiliate KCRA-TV.

    Relatives said her only current job was the Sunday school teaching, according to the Chronicle.

    The allegations stunned a friend of Huckaby's from high school, Emily Glyer Fontes, according to the Orange County Register. Fontes said she recalled that Huckaby "was almost like a mother" to a baby girl that Huckaby's parents adopted while she was in high school.

    "That's why this is so overwhelming to me," Fontes, who said she and Huckaby were on the school's dance team, told the Register. "She was so wonderful with kids -- absolutely amazing. I feel so completely confused and so devastated about this. Everything I knew has been turned upside down."

    Police have not said how Cantu died. The day she was last seen, she came home from school, kissed her mother and left to play with a friend who lives nearby, a family spokeswoman has said.

    Before her arrest, Huckaby told the Tracy Press that Cantu came by her home to see whether she could play with Huckaby's daughter, but Huckaby would not let her daughter play because she wanted her daughter to pick up her toys. Cantu left for another friend's house, Huckaby told the newspaper.

    Huckaby also told the Tracy Press that she owned the suitcase in which the child's body was found, but said she reported it missing the day before the body's discovery. She said it disappeared about the same time the child did.

    Sheneman told reporters after Huckaby's arrest that "inconsistencies" between that interview and statements Huckaby had made to police were one reason police re-interviewed her Friday night.



    -------------
    “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
    Date Posted: 22 April 2009 at 1:36pm

    Finger Pointed At Cops In Cantu Case

    Suspect May Have Taken, Drugged Other Girl Months Earlier; Mom Of Girl Says Police Didn't Heed Her Warnings

     
     
    (CBS)  The suspect in the slaying of eight-year-old Sandra Cantu is scheduled to return to court Friday, when she's expected to enter a plea.

    Melissa Huckaby is charged with kidnapping, raping and killing Cantu late last month. Cantu was a playmate of Huckaby's young daughter.

    And now, the mother of a 7-year-old girl tells reporter David Begnaud of CBS station KOVR in Sacramento, Calif., that Huckaby took the girl without permission to a nearby park in January, and may have drugged her.

    All three families live in the same mobile home park in the Northern California town of Tracy.

    The woman, identified only as Lora, asserts that police didn't do enough to investigate Huckaby after the January incident.

    "I believe," Lora told Begnaud, "if Tracy police had looked into Melissa a lot more than they did, I believe Sandra might be alive. ... I kept telling them to look into Melissa Huckaby a little bit more."

    Lora says Huckaby took her daughter to the park without permission and, when she came home, her daughter could barely walk.

    Lora says her daughter didn't say Huckaby had given her any pills. The girl told Lora, "The only thing (Huckaby) got her was a water from Wendy's."

    Lora now questions why authorities didn't take her claims against Huckaby seriously. "I'm just kind of disappointed in them that they didn't look into Melissa more than they did," Lora remarked to Begnaud.

    Tracy Police Sgt. Tony Sheneman says there was "no probable cause to arrest anyone" at the time.

    Lora says she wasn't surprised when Huckaby was arrested. "My gut feeling," she tells Begnaud, "tells me she did it."

    And Lora believes her own daughter is lucky to be alive, saying, "I'm thankful she is OK, and my heart goes out to Sandra's family."


    Posted By: Pati
    Date Posted: 23 April 2009 at 9:14am
    Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

    http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=elgordoylaflaca&message.id=3877696 -
     
    The only thing I am sure of in both of these cases is that sex has already occurred in one and not yet in the other. What will happen is beyond my knowledge.
     
     


    I think you didn't read the article. Here I pasted you the words of the gir's husband:

    http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=elgordoylaflaca&message.id=3877696 - http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=elgordoylaflaca&message.id=3877696


    Thamer is in jail now. “Yes I was intimate with her, but I have done nothing wrong, as she is my wife and I have the right and no one can stop me," he said. "But if the judge or other people insist that I divorce her, I will do it, it’s ok.”


    You can read it in the article.

    Regards,
    Patricia


    -------------
    No God wants the killing, but the peace.
    The weapons are carried by people, not by religions.


    Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
    Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 11:57am
    Originally posted by Pati

    Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

    http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=elgordoylaflaca&message.id=3877696 -
     
    The only thing I am sure of in both of these cases is that sex has already occurred in one and not yet in the other. What will happen is beyond my knowledge.
     
     


    I think you didn't read the article. Here I pasted you the words of the gir's husband:

    http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=elgordoylaflaca&message.id=3877696 - http://foro.univision.com/univision/board/message?board.id=elgordoylaflaca&message.id=3877696


    Thamer is in jail now. “Yes I was intimate with her, but I have done nothing wrong, as she is my wife and I have the right and no one can stop me," he said. "But if the judge or other people insist that I divorce her, I will do it, it’s ok.”


    You can read it in the article.

    Regards,
    Patricia
     
    I was speaking about the original article posted by Believer.
     
    I know that what happened to the girl in your article is trerrible but at least she's not dead, like the little girl raped and murdered by the Sunday school teacher in the article above.  A woman with her own children whose grandfather is the pastor of the church.....   What does that say about the Christian leadership? It really isn't even safe to send your child to church.
     
     


    -------------
    “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    Posted By: Doo-bop
    Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 2:18pm
    Hmmmmm.........seems like the muslims are up to their old game in this thread.........the old game being this, that they are judging the Holy Faith of Christ by what some christians do.....
     
    Very silly, really.  If we were doing the same about Islam, we would be saying that Islam caused 9/11 (and x number of other things).  Which we are not saying.  We just stick to what muslim core texts say, and judge Islam on that basis


    -------------
    "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" - John the Baptizer (John 1:29)


    Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
    Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 5:52pm
    "Very silly, really.  If we were doing the same about Islam, we would be saying that Islam caused 9/11 (and x number of other things).  Which we are not saying.  We just stick to what muslim core texts say, and judge Islam on that basis"
     
    Have you been reading the threads? If you had read the first posts on this particular thread you would know that it is a not quite so tongue-in-cheek response to ALL of the Islam/Muslim bashing occuring here.
     
    But not having been responsible for any of this type of posting yourself I suppose you wouldn't recognise it if you read it.
     
    An example of "sincere" Christian inquiries:
     
    "Is it true then that all moderate Muslims support all radical muslims?"
     
    "I did not realize that Hamas were the heroes of your day that could do not wrong!!"
     
    "Gee, Geert Wilders is getting a lot of heat for talk against a religion, that people have a choice to choose to follow - not a people!!  You are born into your people!!  LOL!!
     
    Have you been keeping up with this?  Here is the latest, but this Sami Alrabaa might get attacked for hate speech too!!  LOL!!
     
    http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/8066 - http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/8066
     

    Wilders Prosecution is a Welcome Opportunity to Expose Islam

     By Dr. Sami Alrabaa  Saturday, January 31, 2009

    Prosecuting Geert Wilders, member of the Dutch Parliament, is a welcome opportunity to expose fascist Islam and radical Muslims. Wilders and his lawyers do not need to go far away to fetch crystal clear evidence that Islam, i.e. the Koran and Hadeeth incite to violence and hatred, and radical Muslims are behind numerous crimes against humanity. 

    A summary of quotations from the Koran which clearly incite to hatred and violence can be found in the following http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/authors/id.124/author_detail.asp - link

    There is an abundance of fatwas (religious edicts) by Muslim authorities inciting to genocide and suicide attacks against Christians and Jews. All these fatwas are based on the Koran and Hadeeth.

    Ali Gom’a, the grand mufti of Egypt, the highest Muslim religious authority in the world, supports murdering non-Muslims. In the daily Al Ahram (April 7, 2008), he says, “Muslims must kill non-believers wherever they are unless they convert to Islam.” He also compares non-Muslims to apes ...."

    "I didn't think there was the possibility of blasphemy against Mohammad, but was surprised by the reaction of some Muslims concerning the Mohammad cartoons.
     
    Speaking against Islam and Mohammad seems very different then speaking against GOD.  The Quran clumps those together.  Any Muslims out there that don't clump those together?"
     
    "I can believe that Islam will indeed pit itself against the entire world. And to think, many of your believers actually believe that God is up there in heaven cheerleading for terrorists and suicide bombers."
     

    "I'm sure that they are tired of being victims of Arab Muslim terrorist bombings. When they all leave, all that will be left will be the Zionists, and then they just might show their full power, and unfortunately,  thanks to the hateful terrorist mindset of the Muslim Arabs, they will be Justified in just about anything they have to do to defend themselves."

    etc,etc,etc........
     

     
     
     
     


    -------------
    “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    Posted By: Hayfa
    Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 6:49pm
    Well I ca nsee the interfaith knowledge growing on this thread.. sigh..

    -------------
    When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


    Posted By: Salome
    Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 6:50pm
         The church does frown on pedifiles although the Catholic church has had a real beating here in the US.
         Please remember there are different names of Christianity- Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant, Nazarene, etc. the list goes on and on.  I know there is only one Islam but isn't there different types of Muslims ? Sunni, Shia, and Wahabi, am I correct ? What makes each of them different, is it by region, belief, cultural ?
         It would be unfair to point out the bad things in religion and can be very hurtful to some people ( not me, I don't really care because I know who I am and what I believe ).  Religion is a very personal thing, it defines how we worship and also our very character. We all have our own personal relationship with God/ Allah and that should always be respected.

       Salome


    -------------
    May you have the hindsight to know where you've been
    the foresight to know where you're going
    and the insight to know when you're going too far.


    Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
    Date Posted: 24 April 2009 at 7:05pm
    Originally posted by Hayfa

    Well I ca nsee the interfaith knowledge growing on this thread.. sigh..
     
    LOL 
     
    But ya know, sometimes it's cathartic to just return the volley in kind... try it, you know you want to.... 


    -------------
    “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 25 April 2009 at 4:18pm
    I feel honored that my comments have such sticking power.  Hope you remember the context of the threads too.
     
    Doo bop - the problem is that the Quran is just vague enough that many groups- Taliban, Al-Quaeda, etc. believe that Islam condones killing of non-muslims.
     
    Yes we have had a few nut jobs here and there bombing at abortion clinics thinking that is the Christian way.
     
    The Gospel does not order the Christian to kill or condone killing.  It just can't be read into the Gospel the way is can the Quran.


    -------------
    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: Salome
    Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 12:11pm
         I actually beg to differ with Believer, it's not that the Qu'ran is vague. Most  of the " radical groups" in Islam I'm sure can not read and those that can exploit that and tell them ( the illiterate ) anything they wish to.
       Most Christians have never read the bible, so anyone can tell you what they want you to hear, i.e. David Koresh ( The Branch Davidians- Waco, TX )
        I think to say that the Qu'ran  Is vague is demeaning to the Muslim faith, I'm sure some translation gets lost between Arabic and English but they try to make sure that it gets close to what it says. The same goes with the Holy Bible- you have from the King James version to the Living Bible.

      Read the Qu'ran..... I plan to, my husband has two.

       Salome 


    -------------
    May you have the hindsight to know where you've been
    the foresight to know where you're going
    and the insight to know when you're going too far.


    Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
    Date Posted: 26 April 2009 at 1:46pm
    Originally posted by believer

    I feel honored that my comments have such sticking power.  Hope you remember the context of the threads too.
     
    Doo bop - the problem is that the Quran is just vague enough that many groups- Taliban, Al-Quaeda, etc. believe that Islam condones killing of non-muslims.
     
    Yes we have had a few nut jobs here and there bombing at abortion clinics thinking that is the Christian way.
     
    The Gospel does not order the Christian to kill or condone killing.  It just can't be read into the Gospel the way is can the Quran.
     
    Believer: I suppose if you can feel honor regarding the numerous scurrilous statements you have posted here then you are indeed a unique individual. 
     


    -------------
    “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    Posted By: Chrysalis
    Date Posted: 27 April 2009 at 4:14am
    Originally posted by Salome

         I actually beg to differ with Believer, it's not that the Qu'ran is vague. Most  of the " radical groups" in Islam I'm sure can not read and those that can exploit that and tell them ( the illiterate ) anything they wish to. 
       
       Salome 
     
    Good point you brought up Salome. A majority of followers of radical leaders, are illetrate, and have 2nd hand islamic knowledge - that is, if you wanna call it "islamic knowlegde". They believe anything that particular person tells them, because they trust those ppl blindly and believe sincerely that they are bieng taught the truth. Even if most that they are bieng taught has no place in Islam.
     
    Ignorant masses also dont have the ability to distinguish b/w personal opinions of the leader, and Islamic teachings. They confuse the two, and think all the leader is saying, is coming from Islam.
     
    For e.g: Afghanistan. Majority of the Afghani population is illetrate, and has little islamic awareness - which made it easy for the Taliban to preach thier message. Not to mention the fact that the Taliban itself were not well-versed in Arabic or the Qur'an - rather relied on bits and pieces of Islam that they learnt in Madrassahs. . .
     
    Had the population been educated, and well-versed in Islam - events would have been starkingly different.
     


    -------------
    "O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 28 April 2009 at 10:54am
    Very good post chrysalis and salome-
     
    knowledge is power!


    -------------
    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 28 April 2009 at 11:00am
    salome I have read the Quran.   I have been told many times that if I don't read the Quran in arabic the message is not complete.
     
    Do you believe that the message is lost when reading the Bible in various translations?  I don't believe it is. 
     
     


    -------------
    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: Salome
    Date Posted: 29 April 2009 at 6:10pm
       Believer, No I don't think the translation gets lost, BUT what language was the Bible written in in the beginning ? it wasn't written in english I assure you.
       The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and Aramaic and the New Testament was written in Greek. So, do you think possibly maybe there was somewhat of a loss in translation since some languages don't have letters or words that match up in the english language.

      Salome


    -------------
    May you have the hindsight to know where you've been
    the foresight to know where you're going
    and the insight to know when you're going too far.


    Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
    Date Posted: 29 April 2009 at 10:05pm
    Originally posted by believer

    salome I have read the Quran.   I have been told many times that if I don't read the Quran in arabic the message is not complete.
     
    Do you believe that the message is lost when reading the Bible in various translations?  I don't believe it is. 
     
     
     
    If there are misunderstandings or errors or misconceptions according to different translations, where are we going to refer to if there is no original around?
     
    Maybe the only percentage left after all the translations is about 50 percent. So where is the other fifty?
     
    KIA? MIA?


    -------------
    Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 30 April 2009 at 6:58am
    Your belief is that the various translations contradict each other but they are actually complimentary.

    I have mentioned before that many Bible studies request that you bring more then one translation to class.  It actually adds a fuller deeper meaning to the verse.

    That is why all of Christianity has worked to save scriptures and not burned them the way Uthman did the Quran.   Muslims have no originals to compare and prove that the Quran has not changed. 
     
    KIA? MIA?  It is known through history that verses were lost from the Quran before the Quran was compiled and there was war where people who had memorized the Quran were killed.  Aisha talks about chapers that had more verses then were present in her day.  What would be helpful to Islam is if some of the bones and leaves had been saved.  Also the various copies from the companions of Mohammd had been collected and saved.
     
    We have bits of scripture from 125AD- now remember the Scripture was written on a very fragile material so it is a miracle any of it has survived.  We also have are church fathers that reference scripture in their writings.


    -------------
    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: hat2010
    Date Posted: 04 May 2009 at 5:49pm
    -


    Posted By: Salome
    Date Posted: 04 May 2009 at 6:07pm
       Jamal,

       All religious beliefs have their own sick and twisted people, it's in their brain . It's not a matter of religious belief they were sick to begin with and will always be sick. Maybe it happen to them as a child... who knows.
       But abuse does not know race, religion, creed, country, etc....


       I always feel horrible for those who this happen to, and I always pray God will heal their wounds.

       Salome


    -------------
    May you have the hindsight to know where you've been
    the foresight to know where you're going
    and the insight to know when you're going too far.


    Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
    Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 5:26am
    Originally posted by believer

    Your belief is that the various translations contradict each other but they are actually complimentary.

    I have mentioned before that many Bible studies request that you bring more then one translation to class.  It actually adds a fuller deeper meaning to the verse.

    That is why all of Christianity has worked to save scriptures and not burned them the way Uthman did the Quran.   Muslims have no originals to compare and prove that the Quran has not changed. 
     
    KIA? MIA?  It is known through history that verses were lost from the Quran before the Quran was compiled and there was war where people who had memorized the Quran were killed.  Aisha talks about chapers that had more verses then were present in her day.  What would be helpful to Islam is if some of the bones and leaves had been saved.  Also the various copies from the companions of Mohammd had been collected and saved.
     
    We have bits of scripture from 125AD- now remember the Scripture was written on a very fragile material so it is a miracle any of it has survived.  We also have are church fathers that reference scripture in their writings.
    Why not quote sources Believer.
     
    One thing very wonderful about The Quran - The Word of God Almighty, The Creator of the whole universe is that, wherever you are, whether in China, in USA, in Sweden, in Africa, you turn to the first page and the first chapter is Al-Fatiha. And the first phrase is -
    BISMILLAHIRRAHAMANIRRAHEEM - IN THE NAME OF ALLAH MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL.
     
    Unlike Christianity, a Chinese Christian will read in Chinse, an Afrikan will read in Afrikan and so on and so forth. Why is there no universality in Christianity? Because there is no original copy around.
     
    If the God that you worship is Powerful, he would have preserve His True words could'nt he? But alas, no original Scripture of the Christians could be found. The reason none other than that it is a man-made religion.
     
    LAILAHAILALLAH - THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH!
     
    So sorry if I sound offensive, but this is the Truth! Allah is Al-Haqq! The Truth!


    -------------
    Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 9:41am

    LOL!!  Nur  - Allah could not preserve the original compiled Quran, there is no copy of it.

    Where are the bones, leaves etc. that the first verses were written on. 
     


    -------------
    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: Salome
    Date Posted: 05 May 2009 at 4:28pm
    Ah Nur,

       Yes, there is still original text in the world. It is written in Aramaic, Hebrew and in Greek. Ever heard of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS, which consists of roughly about 900 documents, including texts from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible - Hebrew Bible , discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave - caves in and around the Wadi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran - Qumran near the ruins of the ancient settlement of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran - Khirbet Qumran , on the northwest shore of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea - Dead Sea . The texts are of great religious and historical significance, as they include some of the only known surviving copies of Biblical documents made before 100 C.E., and preserve evidence of considerable diversity of belief and practice within late http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple - Second Temple Judaism. They are written in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew - Hebrew , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic - Aramaic and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek - Greek , mostly on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment - parchment , but with some written on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus - papyrus . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls#cite_note-0 - [1] These manuscripts generally date between 150 BCE to 70 CE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls#cite_note-1 - [2] The scrolls are most commonly identified with the ancient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew - Jewish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect - sect called the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes - Essenes , but recent scholarship has challenged their association with the scrolls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls#cite_note-2 - [3]

       You seem very one sided here, You may want to GOOGLE questions or statements you make, because you are not making correct ones and they coming out as assumptions instead.


       Salome
      

    -------------
    May you have the hindsight to know where you've been
    the foresight to know where you're going
    and the insight to know when you're going too far.


    Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
    Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 5:47pm
    Originally posted by believer

    LOL!!  Nur  - Allah could not preserve the original compiled Quran, there is no copy of it.

    Where are the bones, leaves etc. that the first verses were written on. 
     


    Believer, God Almighty had given us brains, intellect to think. Use that and search for the Creator of the whole Universe and worship Him, not a creation that He created.

    Imagine using bones and leaves to read the Quran in the Mosques? Tsk Tsk Tsk....



    -------------
    Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


    Posted By: honeto
    Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 5:53pm
    Originally posted by believer

    salome I have read the Quran.   I have been told many times that if I don't read the Quran in arabic the message is not complete.
     
    Do you believe that the message is lost when reading the Bible in various translations?  I don't believe it is. 
     
     
     
    my friend to have you understand this, here is a simple analogy:
    A translation by a human will have in it human element and  weakness.
    The original language and message as it was revealed and copied down to this day eliminates that weakness.
    Hasan


    -------------
    39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


    Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
    Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 5:58pm
    Originally posted by Salome

    Ah Nur,

       Yes, there is still original text in the world. It is written in Aramaic, Hebrew and in Greek. Ever heard of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS, which consists of roughly about 900 documents, including texts from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible - Hebrew Bible , discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave - caves in and around the Wadi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran - Qumran near the ruins of the ancient settlement of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran - Khirbet Qumran , on the northwest shore of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea - Dead Sea . The texts are of great religious and historical significance, as they include some of the only known surviving copies of Biblical documents made before 100 C.E., and preserve evidence of considerable diversity of belief and practice within late http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple - Second Temple Judaism. They are written in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew - Hebrew , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic - Aramaic and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek - Greek , mostly on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment - parchment , but with some written on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus - papyrus . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls#cite_note-0 - [1] These manuscripts generally date between 150 BCE to 70 CE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls#cite_note-1 - [2] The scrolls are most commonly identified with the ancient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew - Jewish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect - sect called the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes - Essenes , but recent scholarship has challenged their association with the scrolls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls#cite_note-2 - [3]

       You seem very one sided here, You may want to GOOGLE questions or statements you make, because you are not making correct ones and they coming out as assumptions instead.
       Salome
      


    The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered more than 50 years ago, yet till now there are no books published on these Dead Sea Scrolls. Why is that so? I mean there is no attempt to make it into a book so that Jews and Christians could have a chance to read and understand its contents.

    Why Salome?

    The reason is because publishing it would not serve either the Jews nor the Christians, because the texts of these sacred writings contradicts so much what the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible are teaching. However it confirms what was written in the Quran.





    -------------
    Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


    Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
    Date Posted: 06 May 2009 at 6:00pm

    More on the Dead Sea Scrolls from the perspective of a Muslim = http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/scrolls.htm

    Lawrence Schiffman says regarding Pesher Habakkuk: "It (Pesher Habakkuk) describes the struggle between the Teacher of Righteousness and his opponents - the Man of Lies (also termed the Spouter or Preacher of Lies) and the Wicked Priest. The Spouter is pictured as heading a community. The dispute between the Teacher and the Spouter is seems to have been based on matters of religious interpretation and law. The Wicked Priest is said to have begun his rule in truth but then to have abandoned the way of truth. He then persecutes the Teacher, confronting him on the holiest day of the year, the Day of Atonement" (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 228).

    This prophesy also continues in Pesher Psalms: "This text also mentions the familiar dramatis personae: the Teacher of Righteousness, termed 'the priest'; the wicked priest; and the Man of Lies. The Wicked Priest persecuted the Teacher and sought to kill him. The man of lies lead people astray" (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 229). What we begin to see in all of this is the story of the coming of Jesus (peace be upon him), his selection of Judas as one of the apostles, the deviance of Judas from the truth, how a sect of the Jews persecuted Jesus (peace be upon him), how this sect tried to deceive the masses and differed with Jesus (peace be upon him) regarding the truth of God's message, and finally, how they schemed with Judas to kill Jesus (peace be upon him). The Teacher of Righteousness is thus a reference to Jesus (peace be upon him); the "priestly" Messiah. The Wicked Priest is a reference to Judas, and the Spouter of Lies is most likely the leader of the "chief priests and Pharisees" who persecuted Jesus (peace be upon him) and are mentioned so often in the Bible.

    Many Christian scholars have snatched up these prophesies in order to prove the validity of their claim that Jesus (peace be upon him) was indeed sent by God and that the Jews are required to follow him. However, they have been thwarted in their attempts by one other quite amazing piece of evidence that the Jews continually manage to refute their claims with, specifically, that the Dead Sea Scrolls claim that the coming messiah will be persecuted and that the Wicked Priest will try to kill him, but that the Wicked Priest will not be successful and that it is he who will receive the fate he wished for the messiah.

    In interpreting Psalms 37:32: "The Wicked watches for the righteous, seeking to put him to death," the text states: 'Its interpretation concerns the Wicked Priest who watched out for the Teacher of Righteousness and sought to put him to death'" (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 233). So Judas will try to kill Jesus (peace be upon him).

    "The Wicked Priest began his career with the support of the sectarians, but he quickly lost his way and began to transgress in order to increase his wealth" (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 233).

    "And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver". (Matthew 26:15)

    "Various theories have sought to identify the Teacher with Jesus, claiming that he was executed by the Wicked Priest. However, had that been the case, the text would not have gone on to explain how God took vengeance against the priest by turning him over to the 'ruthless ones of the nations'. And according to this text, the teacher certainly survived the ambush. Indeed the entire passage is an interpretation of Psalms (37:33) where the text continues:

    "The Lord will not abandon him (the Righteous), into his hand (the Wicked); He (The Lord) will not let him (the Righteous) be condemned in judgement (by the wicked)." (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, pp. 233-234).

    The author goes on to quote Pesher Habakkuk with regard to the Wicked Priest's intentions and his punishment. He says: "Ultimately, however, the Wicked Priest was punished: '.. because of his transgression against the Teacher of Righteousness and the men of his council, God gave him over to the hands of his enemies to afflict him with disease so as to destroy him with mortal suffering because he had acted wickedly against His chosen one'.

    The Wicked Priest's enemies tortured him which represents divine punishment for his attacks on the Teacher of Righteousness. The sufferings of the Wicked Priest are even more graphically described in another passage: 'and all his enemies arose and abused him in order for his suffering to be fit punishment for his evil. And they inflicted upon him horrible diseases, and acts of vengeance in the flesh of his body'. But the one who suffered was the Wicked Priest, not the Teacher of Righteousness.

    "The enemies of the Wicked Priest, the nation against whom he had made war, are said to have tortured him, so that his life ended in mortal disease and affliction." (Reclaiming the Dead Sea Scrolls, Lawrence H. Schiffman, p. 234). If we read the Gospel of Barnabas, we will find that when Judas came with the Roman troops in order to betray Jesus (peace be upon him), God raised Jesus (peace be upon him) unto Him and saved him. He then made Judas look and even speak like Jesus (peace be upon him) so that the Romans dragged him (Judas) away with them kicking and screaming that he was not Jesus (peace be upon him) but Judas. Even the Apostles were totally bewildered.

    After the Romans had their fill afflicting Judas with all manner of abuse and torture, he was finally taken to trial. By now he had totally given up hope of ever being believed. So now when he was asked, "art thou Jesus?" He replied "Thou sayest". In other words, "you will not believe me if I say otherwise, so why fight it any more". His enemies (the Romans) then took him, mocked him, kicked him, cut him, spat on him, humiliated him, and tortured him. Finally, they put him up on the cross. It appears, however, that shortly after they took him down, he disappeared from his tomb (maybe to live in disease and torment and die later on if he was not already dead). The Gospel of Barnabas then goes on to describe how Jesus (peace be upon him) returned to the apostles to tell them of how God had saved him from the hands of the Jews and the Romans and how the traitor (Judas) was taken instead.

    This is exactly what the Qur'an has been saying for 1400 years now; that Jesus (peace be upon him) was not forsaken by God to be killed by the conspiracy of the Jews and Judas, but that "it was made to appear so to them":

    "But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear you witness that we have surrendered (unto Him). Our Lord! We believe in that which You have revealed and we follow him whom You have sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the truth). And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers"

    (Qur'an, Al-'Imran 3:52-54)



    -------------
    Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 8:44am
    Nur -  not read in a mosque but held in a museum the way the early Christian writings are protected.
     
    The Dead Sea Scrolls contain many different types of writings, not all is Scripture from GOD.  The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah is the Isaiah we have today.
     
    The Gospel of Barnabas is not included in the New Testatment because it was written  sometime after 1300 AD.  We know this because the Jubilee was celeberated every 5 years until Pope Boniface the Eighth ordered that the jubilee should be observed once every hundred years.
     
    'And then through all the world will God be worshipped, and mercy received, insomuch that the year of jubilee, which now cometh every hundred years, shall by the Messiah be reduced to every year in every place.' (The Gospel of Barnabas, p.104).
     
    No early church father referenced the Gospel of Barnabas and the earliest known copy is from 1500 AD.
     
    honeto- why can the Holy Bible be translated into every language of the world and people still understand the message?


    -------------
    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 9:21am
    http://www.abc.net.au/religion/features/scrolls/about.htm - http://www.abc.net.au/religion/features/scrolls/about.htm
     
    The Dead Sea Sect believed that it was the last remnant faithful to the covenant between God and Israel, and that their leader, the http://www.abc.net.au/religion/features/scrolls/about.htm#teacher - Teacher of Righteousness , gave "the last interpretation of the law" on all aspects of life.
     
    There would be no need for Mohammad and the Quran if this was the case.


    -------------
    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: honeto
    Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 3:44pm
    Originally posted by believer

    http://www.abc.net.au/religion/features/scrolls/about.htm - http://www.abc.net.au/religion/features/scrolls/about.htm
     
    The Dead Sea Sect believed that it was the last remnant faithful to the covenant between God and Israel, and that their leader, the http://www.abc.net.au/religion/features/scrolls/about.htm#teacher - Teacher of Righteousness , gave "the last interpretation of the law" on all aspects of life.
     
    There would be no need for Mohammad and the Quran if this was the case.
     
    believer,
    apart from your links which I don't have time to mess with here is a true believer's analogy. It is a grace from God that He has sent the last prophet and the Quran, because without it people would not have chance to worhsip their creator alone as it should be. And they will be worshipping created things as some still do, or assign partnership in godhead to some of His servants.
    I don't see anything come close as a religion that brings a person to the worship of His creator alone, and also gives him a guide to how to live a good life here that will gurantee success in the eternal life that will follow this.
    According to your and my belief, our Creator will not forgive if you direct your worship toward any other than Him, that will be the highest unjust act.
    Hasan


    -------------
    39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


    Posted By: honeto
    Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 4:00pm
    believer writes:
    honeto- why can the Holy Bible be translated into every language of the world and people still understand the message?

    I don't think so, because most of those who even approached me preaching the Bible did not know more than what they have been told by their so and so. They only live by memorizing some phrases to keep them going. When I ask them a basic question about what they are preaching, they say, come to the Bible study, we are just giving the information we are told to deliver. Many did not know that the mother tongue of Jesus, whom they refer as 'Lord' was in fact Aramiac.
     
    And, whenever a verse rally goes agaisnt their belief, as there are many, it all of a sudden is said to have hidden meanings other than what it appears to be saying. For example the one that says: hate you brother, or the one that says that I am returning to my God and your God. Or why call me good, there is only ONe that is good, it is God.
    I have been in some 'bible studies' where pastor selects what each one will read, and guess which ones he will choose? So don't give me that my friend and besides you only have tanslations from translations of what we now know as the Bible, no original Bible, as there isn't such a thing to go back to in case! The compilation first took place a few centuries after Jesus. So who are we decieving here?
     
    Hasan


    -------------
    39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


    Posted By: Salome
    Date Posted: 07 May 2009 at 5:59pm
    Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

    Originally posted by Salome

    Ah Nur,

       Yes, there is still original text in the world. It is written in Aramaic, Hebrew and in Greek. Ever heard of the DEAD SEA SCROLLS, which consists of roughly about 900 documents, including texts from the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible - Hebrew Bible , discovered between 1947 and 1956 in eleven http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave - caves in and around the Wadi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran - Qumran near the ruins of the ancient settlement of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qumran - Khirbet Qumran , on the northwest shore of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea - Dead Sea . The texts are of great religious and historical significance, as they include some of the only known surviving copies of Biblical documents made before 100 C.E., and preserve evidence of considerable diversity of belief and practice within late http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple - Second Temple Judaism. They are written in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew - Hebrew , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic - Aramaic and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek - Greek , mostly on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchment - parchment , but with some written on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus - papyrus . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls#cite_note-0 - [1] These manuscripts generally date between 150 BCE to 70 CE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls#cite_note-1 - [2] The scrolls are most commonly identified with the ancient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew - Jewish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect - sect called the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes - Essenes , but recent scholarship has challenged their association with the scrolls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls#cite_note-2 - [3]

       You seem very one sided here, You may want to GOOGLE questions or statements you make, because you are not making correct ones and they coming out as assumptions instead.
       Salome
      


    The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered more than 50 years ago, yet till now there are no books published on these Dead Sea Scrolls. Why is that so? I mean there is no attempt to make it into a book so that Jews and Christians could have a chance to read and understand its contents.

    Why Salome?

    The reason is because publishing it would not serve either the Jews nor the Christians, because the texts of these sacred writings contradicts so much what the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible are teaching. However it confirms what was written in the Quran.






       Well Nur,
      Explain to me then if they haven't written any books on the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Then how can you say " However it confirms what was written in the Quran."   if there is no books written on them where did you get your secret inside information on the contents of the dead sea scrolls.......

      ok, I'm waiting....Wacko

     Salome


    -------------
    May you have the hindsight to know where you've been
    the foresight to know where you're going
    and the insight to know when you're going too far.


    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 08 May 2009 at 6:04am

    The compilation of all the "books" into one Bible occurred in 300AD, but the separate books where in existance and referenced in the earliest church writings and by the earliest church fathers.  The Gospels were written before 100AD.

     

    Still you misunderstand that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not partners but are the One True GOD.

     

    When you read the Bible you must take into consideration the whole Gospel

     

    “hate you brother,”

     

    If you do a search on hating your brother Bible verses you will see that the number to the contrary far out way hating your brother.   It is possible that you are unable to understand what was a perfectly good explanation.  This happens when your heart is closed.

     

    This simply means to prefer no one in front GOD

     

    Matthew 10 

    37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

     

    1 John 3

    14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

     

    “I am returning to my God and your God”

     

    Yes the 100% human Jesus had a Father, and why wouldn’t the WORD of GOD return to GOD?

     

    John 20

     17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

     

    “call me good, there is only ONe that is good, it is God.”

     

    Have you ever heard of humility- humility is very good trait in the eyes of GOD.  Remember Jesus is on earth to show us literally GOD’s WORD in action - the perfect, sinless example of what GOD wants from us.  We are to humble ourselves to all.

     

    Luke 18

     19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.



    -------------
    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: Salome
    Date Posted: 08 May 2009 at 5:56pm
    Originally posted by honeto

    believer writes:
    honeto- why can the Holy Bible be translated into every language of the world and people still understand the message?

    I don't think so, because most of those who even approached me preaching the Bible did not know more than what they have been told by their so and so. They only live by memorizing some phrases to keep them going. When I ask them a basic question about what they are preaching, they say, come to the Bible study, we are just giving the information we are told to deliver. Many did not know that the mother tongue of Jesus, whom they refer as 'Lord' was in fact Aramiac.
     
    And, whenever a verse rally goes agaisnt their belief, as there are many, it all of a sudden is said to have hidden meanings other than what it appears to be saying. For example the one that says: hate you brother, or the one that says that I am returning to my God and your God. Or why call me good, there is only ONe that is good, it is God.
    I have been in some 'bible studies' where pastor selects what each one will read, and guess which ones he will choose? So don't give me that my friend and besides you only have tanslations from translations of what we now know as the Bible, no original Bible, as there isn't such a thing to go back to in case! The compilation first took place a few centuries after Jesus. So who are we decieving here?
     
    Hasan


        Hasan
             
        Bible studies are just the beginning of learning the bible, if you just sit back and listen to what someone else is saying to you that's when radicals develop.
         The Bible and the Qu'ran are ment to be studied,  that is why before I read my Bible I pray for God to give me his wisdom and knowledge while I read. I pray for God to open my eyes, to see new things ( and I also read some of the things I love to read, like the love story " The Song Of Solomon " ).

        Yes I know Jesus spoke Aramaic, but did you know there were two Jesus's in the Bible ?   (Jesus is Greek ) Joshua is Hebrew-   YaHWe- shua is YaHWeH - Jesus is Lord....


       Salome































    -------------
    May you have the hindsight to know where you've been
    the foresight to know where you're going
    and the insight to know when you're going too far.


    Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
    Date Posted: 08 May 2009 at 10:10pm
    Well Nur,
      Explain to me then if they haven't written any books on the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Then how can you say " However it confirms what was written in the Quran."   if there is no books written on them where did you get your secret inside information on the contents of the dead sea scrolls.......


    Salome, did you not read the article that I posted on the Dead Sea Scrolls?  

    Do you know why the Pope or the Church nor the Jewish Synagogue ever tried to compile it as evidence of the truth of their so-called Holy Scriptures?

    I will tell you why. In the Pesher Text found in the Dead Sea caves, it was prophesied that Jesus would not be killed or crucified instead the Wicked Priest that was Judas who would be the one crucified and tortured due to his betrayal. Imagine if this Dead Sea Scrolls were to be published word by word and published and distributed freely to the whole world. What would happen to Christianity and Judaism?  I believe majority would be enraged with the Pope and the Church for lying to them all these years.

    Did not that confirmed the Quran that said  - 4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge;  That they said (in boast):  'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.'  But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.”

    -------------
    Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


    Posted By: Salome
    Date Posted: 10 May 2009 at 4:52pm
    Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

    Well Nur,
      Explain to me then if they haven't written any books on the contents of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Then how can you say " However it confirms what was written in the Quran."   if there is no books written on them where did you get your secret inside information on the contents of the dead sea scrolls.......


    Salome, did you not read the article that I posted on the Dead Sea Scrolls?  

    Do you know why the Pope or the Church nor the Jewish Synagogue ever tried to compile it as evidence of the truth of their so-called Holy Scriptures?

    I will tell you why. In the Pesher Text found in the Dead Sea caves, it was prophesied that Jesus would not be killed or crucified instead the Wicked Priest that was Judas who would be the one crucified and tortured due to his betrayal. Imagine if this Dead Sea Scrolls were to be published word by word and published and distributed freely to the whole world. What would happen to Christianity and Judaism?  I believe majority would be enraged with the Pope and the Church for lying to them all these years.

    Did not that confirmed the Quran that said  - 4:156-159 "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge;  That they said (in boast):  'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.'  But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.”



       Why NUR do you not ever answer my question when I ask you one ?
      I asked you " ."   if there is no books written on them where did you get your secret inside information on the contents of the dead sea scrolls.......

       Why is it you have to be so snotty about things , why do you need to emit superiority over Christians ?  Obvious you need to study up on the religions of the world and step outside your sheltered world and see there are other people in this world and that the entire world DOES  NOT revolve around you or your opinions..... basically all you give is your opinion ( not necessarily fact )
       so again when did you read the dead sea scrolls, if not why do you believe everything you read, there are more then one source in this world..... again that is how radicals are made......

    Salome


    -------------
    May you have the hindsight to know where you've been
    the foresight to know where you're going
    and the insight to know when you're going too far.


    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 11 May 2009 at 6:31pm
    Nur - I have mentioned before on this forum that the Dead Sea scrolls themselves can be seen at different exhibitions.
     
    http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html - http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html
     
    There are translations of the writings.
     
    http://www.centuryone.com/9201-4.html - http://www.centuryone.com/9201-4.html
     
    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Complete-Dead-Sea-Scrolls-in-English/Geza-Vermes/e/9780140449525 - http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Complete-Dead-Sea-Scrolls-in-English/Geza-Vermes/e/9780140449525 http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/toc.html -


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    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: honeto
    Date Posted: 11 May 2009 at 6:39pm
    believer writes:
    Yes the 100% human Jesus had a Father, and why wouldn’t the WORD of GOD return to GOD."
     
    And who was Jesus' father according to you?
     
    Hasan


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    39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


    Posted By: honeto
    Date Posted: 12 May 2009 at 8:09am
    Originally posted by Salome

    Originally posted by honeto

    believer writes:
    honeto- why can the Holy Bible be translated into every language of the world and people still understand the message?

    I don't think so, because most of those who even approached me preaching the Bible did not know more than what they have been told by their so and so. They only live by memorizing some phrases to keep them going. When I ask them a basic question about what they are preaching, they say, come to the Bible study, we are just giving the information we are told to deliver. Many did not know that the mother tongue of Jesus, whom they refer as 'Lord' was in fact Aramiac.
     
    And, whenever a verse rally goes agaisnt their belief, as there are many, it all of a sudden is said to have hidden meanings other than what it appears to be saying. For example the one that says: hate you brother, or the one that says that I am returning to my God and your God. Or why call me good, there is only ONe that is good, it is God.
    I have been in some 'bible studies' where pastor selects what each one will read, and guess which ones he will choose? So don't give me that my friend and besides you only have tanslations from translations of what we now know as the Bible, no original Bible, as there isn't such a thing to go back to in case! The compilation first took place a few centuries after Jesus. So who are we decieving here?
     
    Hasan


        Hasan
             
        Bible studies are just the beginning of learning the bible, if you just sit back and listen to what someone else is saying to you that's when radicals develop.
         The Bible and the Qu'ran are ment to be studied,  that is why before I read my Bible I pray for God to give me his wisdom and knowledge while I read. I pray for God to open my eyes, to see new things ( and I also read some of the things I love to read, like the love story " The Song Of Solomon " ).

        Yes I know Jesus spoke Aramaic, but did you know there were two Jesus's in the Bible ?   (Jesus is Greek ) Joshua is Hebrew-   YaHWe- shua is YaHWeH - Jesus is Lord....


       Salome





























     
    Jouberar,
    did you know that Jesus has a Lord and a God? to whom he worshipped and prayed like I do. Did you know that Jesus of himself could not do a thing, only what God helped him to do. Did you know that Jesus was sent by His and my God. Did you know that Jesus returned to his God and my God.
    My friend, first logic has to establish before we fall into a half sleep submission. If you fall into a half sleep before figuring out the way in the dark, you are bound to fall on your face.
    That is what God want us to do, establish our belief through concious witnessing of the truth.
    I have said this before on this forum, I had never thought that Bible would contradict within itself until I start to read and know it. Now that I have known it. I can of a surety, based on my own homework can without doubt say that it contain things that cannot be from God, because they contradict the rest of it.
    Hasan


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    39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 12 May 2009 at 8:21am
    honeto- are you the father of your words?  Do your words come from your thoughts and directive?  Do your words act on their own accord? 
     
    Now I realize that in some sad cases of mental illness this analogy can't be used.  Talking healthy normal people here!!
     
    GOD is the Father of His WORD


    -------------
    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: honeto
    Date Posted: 13 May 2009 at 6:26pm
    no habla espańol amigo,  can you say what you said in English, " God is Father of His word"Thumbs%20Down
    So I am fathering what I speak?Wacko This is too much, I need a break! 
    Gracias!


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    39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


    Posted By: hat2010
    Date Posted: 18 June 2009 at 4:10am
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    Posted By: believer
    Date Posted: 18 June 2009 at 6:06am
    Jamal- Popes are human.  I am not Catholic so I do not believe he is infallible.
     
    Here is an example that shows even clerics are sinful and at times misunderstand their faith.
     
    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\06\17\story_17-6-2009_pg7_5 - http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\06\17\story_17-6-2009_pg7_5

    Family killed in name of honour

    SHAHDADKOT: Three persons including a woman and a child were killed in the name of honour by a group of armed men in a village near the Sanjar Bhatti Police Station, Shahdadkot district on Tuesday.

    Two people, Abdul Rasheed Junejo and his 3-year-old son Rashid, were killed by a group of armed men led by Imam Bux Brohi.

    According to the police report, the accused also shot and killed Junejo’s wife.

    Police have arrested the accused, Imam Bux Brohi, and Abdullah Brohi for their involvement in the murders.

    Honour killing is the murder of a family or clan member by one or more fellow family members, where the murderers and potentially the wider community believe the victim to have brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community. app

     
     


    -------------
    John 3
    16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


    Posted By: hat2010
    Date Posted: 18 June 2009 at 12:36pm
    -


    Posted By: honeto
    Date Posted: 18 June 2009 at 2:19pm
    Originally posted by believer

    Jamal- Popes are human.  I am not Catholic so I do not believe he is infallible.
     
    Here is an example that shows even clerics are sinful and at times misunderstand their faith.
     
    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\06\17\story_17-6-2009_pg7_5 - http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009\06\17\story_17-6-2009_pg7_5

    Family killed in name of honour

    SHAHDADKOT: Three persons including a woman and a child were killed in the name of honour by a group of armed men in a village near the Sanjar Bhatti Police Station, Shahdadkot district on Tuesday.

    Two people, Abdul Rasheed Junejo and his 3-year-old son Rashid, were killed by a group of armed men led by Imam Bux Brohi.

    According to the police report, the accused also shot and killed Junejo’s wife.

    Police have arrested the accused, Imam Bux Brohi, and Abdullah Brohi for their involvement in the murders.

    Honour killing is the murder of a family or clan member by one or more fellow family members, where the murderers and potentially the wider community believe the victim to have brought dishonour upon the family, clan, or community. app

     
     
     
    believer,
    I am not understanding your putting this story with misunderstanding one's faith, and the cleric connection?  from where you assumed that this person was a religious cleric? Also letting you know that Imam Bux is a pretty common name in Balochistan and Sindh for a man. So go ahead and explain. And Brahvi people are from Balochistan, rarely very religious, most inclined to their culture more so.
    Hasan


    -------------
    39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


    Posted By: hat2010
    Date Posted: 19 July 2009 at 6:10am
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    Posted By: hat2010
    Date Posted: 14 October 2009 at 11:00am
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    Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
    Date Posted: 14 October 2009 at 11:07am
    Unbelievable!Hey kids this is what molestation looks like.What is this? Catholisism the poster child.sick


    Posted By: Sign*Reader
    Date Posted: 14 October 2009 at 7:38pm
                   "A picture speaks thousand words" so true in the logo...
    If anyone researches the level of debauchery around early popes this whole sex thing would look trivial...they are so doggone conflicted or smart that instead of taking the normal middle course like any normal human they created a paradox with a well thought-out plan not apparent for the simpleton observer...And that they have a sword hanging over priest and laity alike to keep their dogmatic and financial control on the sheeple...
    An ordained priest is a money stream for the RC church given the supposed  supernatural powers who changes the bread and wine into body and blood of Christ with a sleight of hand and the laity captive tax payer for the salvation of the dead soul...He is an addict to the life style and if commits any sex crime can be moved around the world anywhere and the layman can't give up the seat on the redemption bus until the realization that the whole thing was a charade...

    Now here comes the rub of the paradox ... the celibate priest has access to the tremendous sin secrets of the laity through confessionals those may run like a  pornographic soap opera at times so has power over them...The children become an automatic victims who dare not expose their predicaments till late in life...It is no secret anymore at least in the US and the RC has been making big payouts to settle multi million dollar law suits...

    Just think after all the wholesale indulgences marketing by Pope to build Rome's basilica...  Martin Luther who btw had read Quran raised the flag of rebellion against RC church but even he started his own Protestant church instead of becoming a Muslim...It seems the European is wired different than middle eastern crowd IMHO...

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    Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


    Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
    Date Posted: 15 October 2009 at 12:53am
    the celibate priest has access to the tremendous sin secrets.True



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