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Fathering of Jesus.

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13723
Printed Date: 03 September 2014 at 12:13am


Topic: Fathering of Jesus.
Posted By: Friendship
Subject: Fathering of Jesus.
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 7:38am
Assalamu alaikum.

If Allah is the Father of Jesus and also Allah is the Father lights and mercy. In Israelite  religion and Judaism, Yahweh is called Father because of he is the creator, lawgiver and protector. Is Allah then not my Father? Why is only only the father of some one who walked on the earth, mothered, drink, eat, sleep and had friends and enemies? What is the gene pattern of Allah in light and mercy?
Friendship.



Replies:
Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.

If Allah is the Father of Jesus and also Allah is the Father lights and mercy. In Israelite  religion and Judaism, Yahweh is called Father because of he is the creator, lawgiver and protector. Is Allah then not my Father? Why is only only the father of some one who walked on the earth, mothered, drink, eat, sleep and had friends and enemies? What is the gene pattern of Allah in light and mercy?
Friendship.
  peace to you my brother and friend
 very,very interesting observations. i'm at a loss at the moment. this truely requires some thought.
 
leland


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love for all conquers all


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 11:10am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.If Allah is the Father of Jesus and also Allah is the Father lights and mercy. In Israelite  religion and Judaism, Yahweh is called Father because of he is the creator, lawgiver and protector. Is Allah then not my Father? Why is only only the father of some one who walked on the earth, mothered, drink, eat, sleep and had friends and enemies? What is the gene pattern of Allah in light and mercy?Friendship.


Allah is your father...in the manner that he is the creator of your spirit.

My church refers to all of humanity as his children. This places an even greater responsibility on us as siblings. When we kill, we are all as guilty as Cain. When you hit your wife you are hitting the daughter of God and must someday answer to her very angry father. We are to honor and obey our father and creator.

Allah is the absolute creator. Of course, if Allah has no gender and no human attributes, you can also consider Allah your Mother....


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 12:50pm
Assalamu alaiki.

Sister Angela posted: Allah is your father...in the manner that he is the creator of your spirit.

Response: Thank you very much for giving me that honour. God (Allah) was the Father of Eve and the Father of Adam. The sons of God are the professors of Islam (Religion) who are not profane and strangers to Him.
Friendship


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 2:18pm
Hi ,
as a Muslim, I don't see any reason to call God, father. As the term father is a wordly term, has its weaknesses. To a child abused by his/her father this word "father" may bring bad memories and may stand for bad, something of an abuser and so on, not of devine characteristics.
In Quran, God is not mentioned as father of anyone. A muslim is very carefull not to add or substract to what is revealed by God. Thus God is our God, not father in Islam.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 4:16am
Originally posted by honeto

Hi ,
as a Muslim, I don't see any reason to call God, father. As the term father is a wordly term, has its weaknesses. To a child abused by his/her father this word "father" may bring bad memories and may stand for bad, something of an abuser and so on, not of devine characteristics.
In Quran, God is not mentioned as father of anyone. A muslim is very carefull not to add or substract to what is revealed by God. Thus God is our God, not father in Islam.
Hasan
 
Salamalaikum Hasan,
 
I agree wholeheartedly what you said. Muslims should refrain from saying that Allah is our father, because Allah is Al-Ahad The Only One. For Muslim, it is very important to understand thoroughly Surah Al-Ikhlas -

Say: He is Allah, Absolute Oneness,

Allah, the Everlasting Sustainer of all.

He has not given birth and was not born.

And no one is comparable to Him.

We are not suppose to compare Him - The Creator - with any of His Creations.
 
Let's recite Astaghfirullah - I seek forgiveness from Allah.


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 4:20am

The Holy Quran

Introduction: Surah Al Ikhlas

It is a 112th surah of the Holy Quran in order. Surah Al Ikhlas "Sincerity, Pure" was revealed in Mecca, Arabia on Muhammad (peace be upon him). the last Prophet and Messenger of God (Allah Almighty ) Almighty.The surah describe, There is only one Allah Almighty the Almighty, Who is unique in His person and attributes.

No one share these with Him. Only His Law is in force in the entire universe; and all mankind should also live under that one Law. This will create unity in mankind. (The inevitable outcome of the concept of oneness of the Creator is the singularity of law and unity of mankind). The total number of verse in this surah are 4.

 
 

Summary of Surah : verse 1-4


1: (In this connection it should also be clearly explained to your own people that your victory and success are not merely on account of your armed strength. Your success is in fact the result of the ideology or teaching which you present with reason and which you make people accept through logical arguments. The fundamental point of this ideology is the concept of Allah Almighty the Almighty. In the way you present this concept of Allah Almighty , it is not possible for a man who ponders intelligently over it, to refuse to accept it.

(i) There is only one Allah Almighty the Almighty, Who is unique in His person and attributes. No one share these with Him. Only His Law is in force in the entire universe; and all mankind should also live under that one Law. This will create unity in mankind. (The inevitable outcome of the concept of oneness of the Creator is the singularity of law and unity of mankind).

2: (ii). Allah Almighty is self-sufficient and everything else is dependent on Him for its survival, nourishment and development. He is like a firmly established lofty rock which itself is safe from all dangers. And everyone else rushes towards it for seeking safety and protection from deluge.

3: He has brought into existence every living being through the process of creation; not of procreation. (In procreation a part of the producer is passed on to the product. Thus the father, namely the producer, becomes somewhat deficient. This is not the case in creation). Neither did He give birth to any one, nor is He Himself a product of the process of procreation.

4: (iii) There is no one who can ever be His equal or His like.

(Leaving the few atheists aside, the majority of people in the world proclaim that they believe in God. God however is not visible whereby everyone can see and believe in Him in the same way as others. God is non-physical, non-visible and beyond perception. Therefore a person has to tie the belief in God to the concept of God which he or she has. If you have only one concept of God, it means you believe in God. If at the same time you also have another concept, it means that you do not believe in God inspite of your claim that you do. The true concept of God is that which God Himself gave about Himself. That concept is not available anywhere outside the Quran. Therefore to believe according to the Quranic concept means truly believing in God. This concept of God has comprehensively been given in these few words. A purer or higher concept about Him cannot be obtained from any source of knowledge. The secret of success lies in believing this God and as far as humanly possible, one should reflect God's attributes in one's personality. The nation that bears such high qualities shall be invincible. No other nation will be able to face them).
http://www.quran-gateofislam.com/quran_surah_al_ikhlas.asp - http://www.quran-gateofislam.com/quran_surah_al_ikhlas.asp

 


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 16 December 2008 at 6:15am
Assalamu alaikum.

Nur Ilahi posted: A muslim is very carefull not to add or substract to what is revealed by God. Thus God is our God, not father in Islam.
Response: No Muslim with scholarship and Higher Criticism will call Allah his Father. Calling Allah one's Father was their understanding in the Book of Genesis that I quoted them. At least I am not putting them off from trying to understand Islam. The full text from Matthew Henry's commentary of Genesis 6:-2 is, "The sons of God( that is, the professors of religion (but we all know that it is wrong to translate ad-din or Islam as religion), who were called by the name of the Lord, and called upon that name). We call ourselves Abdurahman, Abdullahi, Abdulra'uf etc. I think that is one of the meaning of Chapter 16:25. Addition or subtraction to whet Allah revealed is a more serious issue in the Sunna of the holy Prophet than in Ta'wil. This unfortunately is what the majority of the Muslim do not guard against. 
Friendship 


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 17 December 2008 at 6:00am
Nur Ilahi posted: A muslim is very carefull not to add or substract to what is revealed by God. Thus God is our God, not father in Islam.
That quote was not from me but from Bro Honeto.
 
Response: No Muslim with scholarship and Higher Criticism will call Allah his Father.

The iman or faith of a Muslim does not depend on a scholarship or Higher Criticism as you called it. In fact I have never come across a term called Higher Criticism before. Still, the fact is no Muslim should call Allah his Father (Astaghfirullah!)

Calling Allah one's Father was their understanding in the Book of Genesis that I quoted them.

You must know how to differentiate the meaning of Allah. To Muslim, Allah is the Lord of the Whole Universe, the Creator, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful the AlMighty of the mightiest. Do not equate Allah The Creator with god the creation. I hope you are clear with this.

At least I am not putting them off from trying to understand Islam. 

You want to make them (non-Muslims) understand Islam, yet your version or explanation of Islam, even I a Muslim, cannot understand.


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 17 December 2008 at 10:40am
Assalamu alaikum.

We Muslims followers of Muhammad Rasulullah tend to rush in understanding Islam. We have to learn. hear, read, enquire, contemplate, make references and cross references and then ask questions. In the past, one is admitted into school of hadith at the age of 20 years, He is required to study for 40 years before he is allowed to make Fatwa. But today, one reads a book, a Translation without commentary, then followed by another without commentary, then another without commntary. I hope if you live long and continue reading you will come across what I told you is correct.
There is only one meaning of Allah that is the Lawgiver. It is Rabb that has many variations. Carefully examine the arguments in the Qur'an where Allah and son is mentioned and Rahman and son is mentioned. I hope you will come to conclusion that those who took the angles, Ezra and Jesus as the sons of Allah was based on Lordship (Rahman) and not Allahship. Thus why Muhammad said, in chapter 43:81 (issue of Rahman and not Allah having a son was dismissed by Muhammad), "If the Most Gracious (Rahman) had a son, then I am the first of Allah's worshippers". So the holy Prophet cut at the root of their argument and landed on worshipping (commanding) alone. Now, if we are arguing with the People of the Book, let us argue on worshipping Allah and leave everything aside. I hope I have explained myself now.
Friendship.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 18 December 2008 at 4:02am

To others who want to believe Friendship, I just want to add - Believe at your own peril!



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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 18 December 2008 at 1:48pm
Assalamu alaikum.

Nur Ilahi Posted:
(1) You want to make them (non-Muslims) understand Islam,. Their understanding of Islam that a righteous man is the son of God was what they understood in the Book of Genesis. If they call me the son of God, I will accept it because I believe I am righteous. If I do not accept I am unrighteous.
(11)  yet your version or explanation of Islam, even I a Muslim, cannot understand.
Response: You demonstrated your misunderstanding in your saying
: To others who want to believe Friendship. Where in the OT and NT Allah said that one should believe in what Friendship says? It is not Friendship who will make you understand Islam, but rather Allah. Thus why on the Day of Judgment Satan will say to those who failed to understand Islam, "Do not blame me, blame yourselves. I have no power over you and you have no power over me. I totally reject what you associate with me".
Friendship.
 

Who is more worthy of worship? God the creation or God the Creator?
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Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 18 December 2008 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.

Nur Ilahi Posted:
(1) You want to make them (non-Muslims) understand Islam,. Their understanding of Islam that a righteous man is the son of God was what they understood in the Book of Genesis. If they call me the son of God, I will accept it because I believe I am righteous. If I do not accept I am unrighteous.
(11)  yet your version or explanation of Islam, even I a Muslim, cannot understand.
Response: You demonstrated your misunderstanding in your saying
: To others who want to believe Friendship. Where in the OT and NT Allah said that one should believe in what Friendship says? It is not Friendship who will make you understand Islam, but rather Allah. Thus why on the Day of Judgment Satan will say to those who failed to understand Islam, "Do not blame me, blame yourselves. I have no power over you and you have no power over me. I totally reject what you associate with me".
Friendship.
 
peace and eddless love my brother my friend.
leland
Who is more worthy of worship? God the creation or God the Creator?
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love for all conquers all


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 18 December 2008 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by Angela



Allah is your father...in the manner that he is the creator of your spirit.

My church refers to all of humanity as his children. This places an even greater responsibility on us as siblings. When we kill, we are all as guilty as Cain. When you hit your wife you are hitting the daughter of God and must someday answer to her very angry father. We are to honor and obey our father and creator.

Allah is the absolute creator. Of course, if Allah has no gender and no human attributes, you can also consider Allah your Mother....


Only you could do this, Angela. Good and let this be a lesson that no one should beat his wife.  LOL

BMZ


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Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 December 2008 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by BMZ

Only you could do this, Angela. Good and let this be a lesson that no one should beat his wife.  [IMG]smileys/smiley36.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" />BMZ


I used to argue this point when I was a traditional Christian. People insist on giving God a male gender. Well, if "he" has no body, no form and is uncreated, then he can't be MALE and thus female pronouns would be just as fitting.

But, in the end, our creator does everything that a father does. He provides for us as he has created the whole world. He protects us by giving us the right path to follow. He disciplines us when we do wrong. He teaches us, albeit through Prophets, but the lessons are his. He loves us unconditionally, but he is firm and strict in his expectations.

Allah is my creator, he is the only one worthy of my worship. He is the father of my spirit and as his faithful daughter, I want to do all that I can to please him.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 19 December 2008 at 1:45pm
Assalamu alaikum.

Angela posted:  But, in the end, our creator does everything that a father does. He provides for us as he has created the whole world. He protects us by giving us the right path to follow. He disciplines us when we do wrong. He teaches us, albeit through Prophets, but the lessons are his. He loves us unconditionally, but he is firm and strict in his expectations.
Response: In the parlance of Tauhid, Monotheism,this is what in the Islam brought by Muhammad Rasulullah is called  the SIFFAT of Allah i.e His Qualities, Peculiarities, Characteristics etc. For example, Allah said, "O My servants I have forbidden oppression for Myself (I do not do injustice on Myself), and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress".  In another He said, "Indeed Allah is (Good) Pure and does not accept anything but that which is pure".
Friendship.



Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 19 December 2008 at 6:13pm
Hello, Friendship

Originally posted by Friendship

Who is more worthy of worship? God the creation or God the Creator?


Bold emphasis within your quote is mine.

Could you please clarify God the creation in above? Haven't heard of that before. What are you trying to say?

Salaams

BMZ





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Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 20 December 2008 at 12:26am
Assalamu alaikum.

BMZ.
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.

Nur Ilahi Posted:
(1) You want to make them (non-Muslims) understand Islam,. Their understanding of Islam that a righteous man is the son of God was what they understood in the Book of Genesis. If they call me the son of God, I will accept it because I believe I am righteous. If I do not accept I am unrighteous.
(11)  yet your version or explanation of Islam, even I a Muslim, cannot understand.
Response: You demonstrated your misunderstanding in your saying
: To others who want to believe Friendship. Where in the OT and NT Allah said that one should believe in what Friendship says? It is not Friendship who will make you understand Islam, but rather Allah. Thus why on the Day of Judgment Satan will say to those who failed to understand Islam, "Do not blame me, blame yourselves. I have no power over you and you have no power over me. I totally reject what you associate with me".
Friendship.
 
peace and eddless love my brother my friend.
leland
Who is more worthy of worship? God the creation or God the Creator?
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love for all conquers all
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That was the posting of Nazerene. But I think he meant who is worthy of worship to Allah the Creator or the being (or object) created by Allah?
Friendship.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 20 December 2008 at 5:07am
Originally posted by honeto

Hi ,
as a Muslim, I don't see any reason to call God, father. As the term father is a wordly term, has its weaknesses. To a child abused by his/her father this word "father" may bring bad memories and may stand for bad, something of an abuser and so on, not of devine characteristics.
In Quran, God is not mentioned as father of anyone. A muslim is very carefull not to add or substract to what is revealed by God. Thus God is our God, not father in Islam.
Hasan
 
 
Then you deny the teaching of you own prophet Jesus who said:-
 

Matthew 6:9

"‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 December 2008 at 8:29am
Wa alaikum assalaam, Friendship

Thanks for the clarification. My apologies.

BMZ



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Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 20 December 2008 at 9:02am
You know, I have been thinking about the idea that the word Father has a weakness.

It does not.

There are men who disgrace the calling of Father. But there are men who disgrace the calling of Human and disgrace the fact they are a creation of God.

There are men who malign the world God by ascribing it to things and to myths.

Father is the highest calling. You are responsible for the creation and care of the next generation. (As a human) You are protector, teacher, caregiver, discipliner, provider, and role-model.

There is no weakness to the calling of Father. But there are men, humans, who are unfit to carry this name. Calling God "Father" is acknowledging all that he is in one word. Most of the 99 names of God can be ascribed to a Father.

I mean, obviously ones like al-Hayy and al-Qayyum can only be given to God... this is what makes him more than "just" a Father.

My father had his human failings, but there is no other man on this planet who has shaped who I am more than he has. With that in mind, you men should keep that thought in your head when dealing with your children. You will shape what kind of men and women they become.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 20 December 2008 at 12:53pm
Assalamu alaikum.

Angela posted: Father is the highest calling. You are responsible for the creation and care of the next generation. (As a human) You are protector, teacher, caregiver, discipliner, provider, and role-model.
Response: What you said corresponds to what was written in Wikipedia encyclopaedia. However in  Israelite religion and modern Judaism, Yahweh is called Father because He is the creator, lawgiver and protector. However God in the NT was not found as author and beginner.
Philosophy can be applied to the Scriptures in explaining some concepts or matter that cannot be understood without using the freedom of expression given to us by our Creator. Islam i.e. the teaching of Muhammad accepts also philosophical interpretations as an auxiliary or a booster provided one remains within the intended meaning of that concept. Father as the highest calling is Allah which in Arabic means the Lawgiver. If we philosophically say Allah is our Father in a reflection of His Attributes which He breathed into us, then that philosophical concept lands us in the position of His vicegerents- His deputies. This position and responsibility given to us (human beings) by Allah was explained probably before He began the Creation of organic matter - 8 billion years ago. We are the deputies of Allah but without the power to enact any law but only to comply with His completed, perfected and chosen way of life. This was what indeed Jesus the son of Maryam said in Matthew 5:`8-21. Jesus the son of Maryam proVed that he was Allah's vicegerent in many places in the NT.  For example the people told Jesus: Don't accuse us for having someone else as our father (not Father). We just have one father and he is God" Jesus answered: If God were your Father (not father) you wold love me (This version where Muhammad spoke is also in the Qur'an), because I came from God and only from Him. He sent me. I did not come on my own.
Let me ask you Angela: Who was the wife of Allah then?
Friendship



Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 5:27am
Father as the highest calling is Allah which in Arabic means the Lawgiver.
 
Please quote any sunnah or verses from the AlQuran that states Allah means the Lawgiver.
 
If we philosophically say Allah is our Father in a reflection of His Attributes,
 
It is you who said philosophically that Allah is your father, but never have I come across any Muslim scholars who dared to say that Allah is our Father (Astaghfiruallah!)
 
This position and responsibility given to us (human beings) by Allah was explained probably before He began the Creation of organic matter - 8 billion years ago -
 
Perhaps I am not studious enough, but I have not come across any exact calculation from our Muslim scholars - that Allah began the Creation of organic matter  - 8 billion years ago.
 


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 11:16am
Assalamu alaikum.

Nur Ilahi posted.
Topic: Fathering of Jesus.
Posted: Today at 5:27am By Nur_Ilahi
Father as the highest calling is Allah which in Arabic means the Lawgiver.
 
Please quote any sunnah or verses from the AlQuran that states Allah means the Lawgiver.
 
If we philosophically say Allah is our Father in a reflection of His Attributes,
 
It is you who said philosophically that Allah is your father, but never have I come across any Muslim scholars who dared to say that Allah is our Father (Astaghfiruallah!)
 
This position and responsibility given to us (human beings) by Allah was explained probably before He began the Creation of organic matter - 8 billion years ago -
 
Perhaps I am not studious enough, but I have not come across any exact calculation from our Muslim scholars - that Allah began the Creation of organic matter  - 8 billion years ago.

Response: My post was not directed to you but to Angela who understood what was revealed to Muhammad Rasulullah as explained in the Bible. I am trying to explain to her how Bible was assimilated and explained by Muhammad Rasulullah. You should try to know and understand what bothers you. I am explaining Iman to her and not the Sunna of Muhammad Rasulullah.
Friendship.
 


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi


Perhaps I am not studious enough, but I have not come across any exact calculation from our Muslim scholars - that Allah began the Creation of organic matter  - 8 billion years ago.





 


Nur, perhaps you should study a little science with your Muslim scholars. Its not all calculations by men who have a degree in Quran and Quran only.

Allah's creations are fast, wonderful and complicated and one of those is our brains which give us the ability to think on our own.

Arabs were the forefathers of so much of todays modern science. It really bothers me when Muslims around the world stop thinking scientifically. Islam is a religion that encourages education.

The Quran says we are created from a blood clot? That's extremely close to the reality of sperm and eggs but its incorrect from a scientific standpoint. God has always revealed to man things in a manner in which he can understand at the time. Therefore, I highly doubt Moses, Abraham or even Muhammed would have been given a lecture on Carbon-14, nuclear decay and amino acids. It would have been far beyond their understanding and the understanding of their people.

God created our planets, stars and nebulae billions of years ago. How do you describe billions to peoples who barely have a concept of 0? The Babylonian, Greeks and others debated it 0 even existed. So, if they didn't have a concept of nothing...they couldn't really understand the vastness of space or the basics of its creation.

Studying theology is wonderful, Nur...but relying on it for all your information is why there are women in the Middle East who think that the clitoris will cause infertility or why there are those in the Congo who still believe in Witches. They leave their rationality and check their brains at the door.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 6:11pm

Response: My post was not directed to you but to Angela who understood what was revealed to Muhammad Rasulullah as explained in the Bible. I am trying to explain to her how Bible was assimilated and explained by Muhammad Rasulullah. You should try to know and understand what bothers you. I am explaining Iman to her and not the Sunna of Muhammad Rasulullah.
Friendship
.

Ok, I see your point, however, you must based your explanation according to our Quran and Hadiths not thru the Bible. Like one of our Muslim posters here who I had refuted and who believed that Jesus was dead because of the so called facts in the Bible. We are Muslims and therefore we have to adhere to our Quran and Hadiths. Whatever that are in the Bible that do not contradict the Quran and Hadiths, can be accepted, after all some of the teachings were original and were from Isa Alaihissalam.

I know your post was directed at Angela, but you must remember, there are many others who are reading your posts. And there are ignorant Muslims as well as New Muslims whose Aqidah or Iman are not strong. We have the responsibility to give them concrete facts that are based on AlQuran and AsSunnah so that their Iman could become stronger. That is part of AMAL MAKRUF NAHI MUNKAR. And you should also make sure that your points or facts are according to AhlusSunnah WalJamaah, not something that is just made up.



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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 6:17pm

Nur, perhaps you should study a little science with your Muslim scholars. Its not all calculations by men who have a degree in Quran and Quran only.

Then he should quote where his sources are from.

Allah's creations are fast, wonderful and complicated and one of those is our brains which give us the ability to think on our own.

Subhanallah! MashaAllah! Correct indeed. That I agree wholeheartedly. The insane or retarded person is exempted and not obligated to solat/prayers, fasting, zakah and hajj because he is deprived of sanity, a key component on which religious duties depend. In a hadith related by Ali Bin Abi Talib (raa), the Messenger of Allah (saas) said: "The Pen that records the deeds has been lifted from three people; the insane person, until he recovers; the sleeping person, until he wakes up; and the minor, until he dreams (i.e., has wet dreams.)" (Ahmed)

There is a saying in Islam that says Adeenul Aql - Religion is Intellect. A religion that is compatible with the Aqal is Islam. Adeenul Fitrah - The Natural Religion.

Arabs were the forefathers of so much of todays modern science. It really bothers me when Muslims around the world stop thinking scientifically. Islam is a religion that encourages education.

Yes there is no doubt of that. The importance of education is reflected in the first word of the AlQuran that came to Rasulullulah that was - ‘IQRA!” Read!.

The reason why the early Muslims were very good in Mathematics and Sciences, because they were not only good in worldy knowledge, but they were also the best of Allah's servants in terms of piety or Spiritual knowledge.

The Quran says we are created from a blood clot? That's extremely close to the reality of sperm and eggs but its incorrect from a scientific standpoint.

The Quran is a guide to all kinds of knowledge, not an encyclopeadia of sciences only. And the wonderful thing is, it never contradicts science, in fact science confirms it

Studying theology is wonderful, Nur...but relying on it for all your information is why there are women in the Middle East who think that the clitoris will cause infertility

Please give facts and figures so that your statement is not just an empty statement or a false accusation.

or why there are those in the Congo who still believe in Witches. They leave their rationality and check their brains at the door.

And there are also some whose brains are okay, yet still refuse to acknowledge that Muhammad is the best example of a human being ever lived.



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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 21 December 2008 at 10:28pm
Assalamu alaikum.

Nur Ilahi posted.
We have the responsibility to give them concrete facts that are based on AlQuran and AsSunnah so that their Iman could become stronger.
Response: That is true. But you should understand that the Qur'an is called Glorious because of its comprehensive composition-every skill or knowledge is mentioned in it briefly. It is left for the experts on that knowledge to elaborate on it. It was not the responsibility of the holy Prophet to explain such concepts nor was he commissioned by Allah to do so. It is left to one of us (mankind and not only his followers) to explain such concepts. No one is supposed to understand very concept of Faith (word or letter) in the Qur'an. Just understand one letter or word and then follow Muhammad. You cannot learn Islam without reading, and it seems you do not read books, or you do not know the right books to read. You must read the Bible especially the Book of Genesis and Deuterenomy and their available commentary. Islam since from the time of Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) taught that we should always listen to the understanding of one and then make better of it. When his brothers accused Benjamin of stealing he said, 'rather from the one on whom you found your goods'. The Sunna of the holy Prophet means Ibadat. No one has a say in it. Instead of the Muslims to concentrate on the sciences of the holy Qur'an for research they concentrated all their efforts on the unquestionable Sunna creating distortion, division and confusion among the Muslim Umma.

(11) And you should also make sure that your points or facts are according to AhlusSunnah WalJamaah, not something that is just made up.
Response: Please do not allow yourself to be deceived by people who believed they know better than Muhammad. Now tell me where Muhammad Rasulullah described Ahlal Sunna and Jama'a fittting the attitude of the present Muslim Umma. Ahlal Sunna and Jama'a are those group of Muslims with a Khalifa reflecting the period of the rightly guided Sahabas. They respect Muhammad and do exactly what he did when doing their Ibadat.
Friendship.





Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 22 December 2008 at 10:29am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi


Please give facts and figures so that your statement is not just an empty statement or a false accusation.

</SPAN>


Nur, research FGM and tribal beliefs regarding clitorectomies. Or read Infidel and get a first hand account of a woman who as a child was held down and had her private parts sheared off with scissors. I'm not going to get into another debate with you over that barbaric practic.

The point is that not all knowledge comes from the Quran. And there are many places that give you information on the timeline of this great creation of our Planet. The scriptures say 6 days, but what are 6 days to God? Allah has no time, therefore it is mankind that ascribes a time to an event.

When giving a "timeline" to the world, we must use our brains and what we have learned. The Universe that we understand was created 15 billion years ago. Our planet is 4.5 billion years old and their are planets and stars that have existed and died before our planet was woven into what it is today. This may be a timeline we cannot fathom, but to God, its been a blink of the eye.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 December 2008 at 5:50am

Waalaikum salam.

Friendship, in view of the many fake Muslims in this kind of forum, I took extra care towards one's posts.
 
 


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 December 2008 at 5:52am

Hi Angela,

I totally agree that FGM is barbaric. However the one that I had brought up in the other forum, was totally different. You will never know because you never experienced it.
 
There were never a definite time given as to the formation of this universe. Only conjecture. Only Allah Al-Aleem (Most Knowing) knows the answer.


-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 December 2008 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by honeto

Hi ,
as a Muslim, I don't see any reason to call God, father. As the term father is a wordly term, has its weaknesses. To a child abused by his/her father this word "father" may bring bad memories and may stand for bad, something of an abuser and so on, not of devine characteristics.
In Quran, God is not mentioned as father of anyone. A muslim is very carefull not to add or substract to what is revealed by God. Thus God is our God, not father in Islam.
Hasan
 
 
Then you deny the teaching of you own prophet Jesus who said:-
 

Matthew 6:9

"‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.
 
 
 
Robin,
I do not deny that Jesus glorified God, all of God's prophets and those of us who believe in God do glorify Him in our own ways. What I am saying is that God created us, the animals, the universe and all, God did not fathered these things. And all I am doing is to apply right terminology because I believe God will hold us resposible for our lose tongue, intentions and actions.
Quran 21:26 And they say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! they are (but) servants raised to honour."
For those who mend their actions and words after realizing their mistakes, God will bestow His Mercy and forgiveness.
 
Quran 7:35 "O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve."
 
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 28 December 2008 at 2:02am
Assalamu alaikum.

Honeto posted:
Robin, I do not deny that Jesus glorified God, all of God's prophets and those of us who believe in God do glorify Him in our own ways. What I am saying is that God created us, the animals, the universe and all, God did not fathered these things. And all I am doing is to apply right terminology because I believe God will hold us responsible for our lose tongue, intentions and actions.
Response: You have hit the nail by the head in your statement:
What I am saying is that God created us, the animals, the universe and all, God did not fathered these things. Allah cannot father human beings and not father lower primates! Logically, He told us that He created Adam from clay and the scientists who analysed the various verses came up with a beautiful explanation. Clay could not be the wife of Allah! Secondly, the use of terminology is very important. If we begin from the Canaanite language probably the language spoken by Adam up to Abraham, we need explanation from them. If we use the Syriac/Aramic language etc we need explanation from them. Likewise from the Hebrew, Greek and Latin languages. Our own is the Pure Arabic language free from any crookedness. So it is just a matter of tolerance and giving each one to express in his language. For example Prophet Yusuf (AS) [Joseph] said to his inmates, "mention me to your lord (rabbika). That was the canaanite expression. But definitely he did not mean Allah the creator. In my language we use the world loosely to mean your master or somone taking care of you. But it does not mean Allah! I studied usage of the word Father in the bible and it was never used biologically.
Friendship. 


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 09 January 2009 at 1:14am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.

If Allah is the Father of Jesus and also Allah is the Father lights and mercy. In Israelite  religion and Judaism, Yahweh is called Father because of he is the creator, lawgiver and protector. Is Allah then not my Father? Why is only only the father of some one who walked on the earth, mothered, drink, eat, sleep and had friends and enemies? What is the gene pattern of Allah in light and mercy?
Friendship.
 

Can It Possibly Be Said That Christ Is the Son of God?

IT IS unthinkable that God should have a son resulting from relations with a woman or that he would marry and beget children. God is unique. What humans do to reproduce should never be applied to him. This is precisely what the Holy Scriptures teach and emphasize.

Why, then, do the Holy Scriptures use the expression "son of God" in many instances? For example, it is said that Adam was a "son of God." (Luke 3:38) But how could that be? The Torah explains: "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man [Adam] out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) Therefore, Adam was called a son of God because his life came from God without human parents. Similarly, Jesus Christ is called the son of God, for his life came directly from God. We read in the Qur’ān: "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: And he was."—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:59.

Language also permits a figurative use of the word "son." In Arabic, for example, the expression "son of the village" is used to refer to a native villager, and the expression "the son of the language" is used to indicate the speaker of a tongue. Of course, such expressions do not mean that either the village or the language has literally begotten children through marriage! Similarly, in Al-Baqarah [2]:177 the rendering "wayfarer" is a translation of the Arabic expression "son of the road." Here again no one can say that the road has actually married and thereby produced a son. Likewise, when the Qur’ān employs such expressions as "the face of God," "the Hand of God," and "mounted He the Throne," these are not understood literally. (Al-Baqarah [2]:109, Rodwell; Al-Fath [48]:10; Al-A‘rāf [7]:54, MMP) Finally, not all Muslim scholars object to the use of the expression "son of God" in the Injīl. Both Imām Abū Hāmid Al-Ghazālī and Ibn Qutaybah accept it as a figure of speech.

 

robin



Posted By: Honzo
Date Posted: 09 January 2009 at 5:01am
Originally posted by Robin

Why, then, do the Holy Scriptures use the expression "son of God" in many instances? For example, it is said that Adam was a "son of God." (Luke 3:38) But how could that be? The Torah explains: "And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man [Adam] out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) Therefore, Adam was called a son of God because his life came from God without human parents. Similarly, Jesus Christ is called the son of God, for his life came directly from God. We read in the Qur’ān: "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: And he was."—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:59.


Yes brother Robin is right son of god is an expression used in Bible to denote Servant of God as we can see in the following verses of Bible


Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD." LUKE 3:38

 "That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose. ". . when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." GENESIS 6:2

 " . . Thus- saith the Lord, Israel is MY SON even my FIRSTBORN." EXODUS 4:22


 " . . and Ephraim is my FIRSTBORN," JEREMIAH 31:9


" . . Thou (o David) ART MY SON; this day have I (God) BEGOTTEN thee. " 
PSALMS 2:7


 
 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS OF GOD. ' ROMANS 8:14








Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 09 January 2009 at 10:30am
Assalamu alaikum.

Robin posted: The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: ‘Be’: And he was."—Āl ‘Imrān [3]:59.
Response: I think in the matter of Jesus the son of Maryam the People of the Book who are today the leaders of scientific investigations should hav
e focused their minds on what Allah said above, on the similitude and confirm what Allah said about the impossibility. On the hand the majority of the followers of Muhammad have little or no interest in exploring the mysteries of the holy Qur'an on what is not the responsibility of the holy Apostle and his sahabas to explain to mankind. If the one with keen interest in exploring a scientific verse of the holy Qur'an gives his Ta'wil, others will just jump to the conclusion that the Sahabas did not say so! This is ridiculous! We are talking of Ta'wil today and not during their time!
The choice of clay soil by Allah of all the type of soil was because it can be moulded, emits  sound and dries easily. Water is an
oxidant. Today we know of gene transfer, cloning artifical insemination etc. So why do we going on wrangling on something we are not supposed to know with certainty?  Why only one man out of all those created by Allah? Why not we be patient till the Day of Haqqul Yaqeen?
Friendship.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 31 January 2009 at 9:11am
Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.

Honeto posted:
Robin, I do not deny that Jesus glorified God, all of God's prophets and those of us who believe in God do glorify Him in our own ways. What I am saying is that God created us, the animals, the universe and all, God did not fathered these things. And all I am doing is to apply right terminology because I believe God will hold us responsible for our lose tongue, intentions and actions.
Response: You have hit the nail by the head in your statement:
What I am saying is that God created us, the animals, the universe and all, God did not fathered these things. Allah cannot father human beings and not father lower primates! Logically, He told us that He created Adam from clay and the scientists who analysed the various verses came up with a beautiful explanation. Clay could not be the wife of Allah! Secondly, the use of terminology is very important. If we begin from the Canaanite language probably the language spoken by Adam up to Abraham, we need explanation from them. If we use the Syriac/Aramic language etc we need explanation from them. Likewise from the Hebrew, Greek and Latin languages. Our own is the Pure Arabic language free from any crookedness. So it is just a matter of tolerance and giving each one to express in his language. For example Prophet Yusuf (AS) [Joseph] said to his inmates, "mention me to your lord (rabbika). That was the canaanite expression. But definitely he did not mean Allah the creator. In my language we use the world loosely to mean your master or somone taking care of you. But it does not mean Allah! I studied usage of the word Father in the bible and it was never used biologically.
Friendship. 
 
 
When God is called "Father" in The Bible as with Jesus it means that God was his creator as he was of Adam, so the word creator and father are interchangable in this instance; e.g. in can be said 'that God was the creator of Jesus' or is can be said 'that God was the father of Jesus', both these phrases mean the same thing, God is the cause of Jesus' existance.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 08 February 2009 at 9:12am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Originally posted by honeto

Hi ,
as a Muslim, I don't see any reason to call God, father. As the term father is a wordly term, has its weaknesses. To a child abused by his/her father this word "father" may bring bad memories and may stand for bad, something of an abuser and so on, not of devine characteristics.
In Quran, God is not mentioned as father of anyone. A muslim is very carefull not to add or substract to what is revealed by God. Thus God is our God, not father in Islam.
Hasan
 
Salamalaikum Hasan,
 
I agree wholeheartedly what you said. Muslims should refrain from saying that Allah is our father, because Allah is Al-Ahad The Only One. For Muslim, it is very important to understand thoroughly Surah Al-Ikhlas -

Say: He is Allah, Absolute Oneness,

Allah, the Everlasting Sustainer of all.

He has not given birth and was not born.

And no one is comparable to Him.

We are not suppose to compare Him - The Creator - with any of His Creations.
 
Let's recite Astaghfirullah - I seek forgiveness from Allah.
 
The Prophet Jesus calls Allah "father":-
 
Matthew 6:9
"‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.. . 
 
John 17:1
Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: "Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you,
 
John 20:17
Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’". . 
 
John 14:28
YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
 
John 16:28
I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Further, I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father."
 
So The Prophet shows that it is right to call God "Father"!


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 09 February 2009 at 5:36am
Originally posted by robin

 
The Prophet Jesus calls Allah "father":-
 
Matthew 6:9
"‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.. . 
 
So The Prophet shows that it is right to call God "Father"!
 
Robin, you are quoting the Bible which in your opinion is unadultered. Yet, in this modern times, if you bring the Bible to court to insist that it is an authentic book, you will fail!
 
If the Bible were to be a witness, it will be shredded to peices (metaphorically) by the Prosecutor.


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Katydid
Date Posted: 09 February 2009 at 10:23am
Nur Ilahi,
 

or why there are those in the Congo who still believe in Witches. They leave their rationality and check their brains at the door.

And there are also some whose brains are okay, yet still refuse to acknowledge that Muhammad is the best example of a human being ever lived.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, are you saying that there is  something deficient about those who do not accept Muhammad as the best example of a human being?  Please explain.

Katydid


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 11 February 2009 at 1:01am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Originally posted by robin

 
The Prophet Jesus calls Allah "father":-
 
Matthew 6:9
"‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.. . 
 
So The Prophet shows that it is right to call God "Father"!
 
Robin, you are quoting the Bible which in your opinion is unadultered. Yet, in this modern times, if you bring the Bible to court to insist that it is an authentic book, you will fail!  - BUT YOU HAVE NOT PROVED THAT TO ME!
 
If the Bible were to be a witness, it will be shredded to peices (metaphorically) by the Prosecutor. - THEN THAT WOULD DESTROY ISLAM AS IT IS BASED ON THE BIBLE!!
 
Faithful the Jews in The Bible knew God as their "Father".
 
Psalm 68:4-5
Raise up [a song] to the One riding through the desert plains As Jah, which is his name; and jubilate before him;  5 A father of fatherless boys and a judge of widows Is God in his holy dwelling.
 
Matthew 6:8
for God YOUR Father knows what things YOU are needing before ever YOU ask him.



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