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the sahaaba

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: Matters/topics, related to various sects, are discussed where only Muslims who may or may not belong to a sect take part.
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Printed Date: 16 September 2014 at 4:46am


Topic: the sahaaba
Posted By: asda
Subject: the sahaaba
Date Posted: 05 September 2008 at 3:31am
Salaams...

The companions of Prophet (SAW) were normal fallible human beings. They were neither divine, nor sent by Allah. The companions of Prophet (SAW), who were sincere with Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and his mission, who strived hard in the way of Islam, who did good to themselves and to others, before and after the demise of Prophet (SAW), will enter paradise through the process of accountability. And to such companions of Prophet (SAW), we pay our tribute and sign of respect.

But respecting all companions and loving all of them, claiming everyone of them to be truthful and pious, is wrong to the fundamentals of Quran and history. When Allah himself doesn't promise forgiveness to all of the companions, except those who believe and do good, then who are we to attribute piety to every one of the companions?

If all companions of Prophet (SAW) were infallibles and couldn't make mistakes, then which men have been condemned in the Quran for displaying niggardly behavior with respect to Jihad;

Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.
Quran [47:38]

Similarly, if all companions were saints, then can you show me from history that no Islamic punishment was ever legislated during the time of the Prophet (SAW) or the first four Caliphs, the era during which the Muslim community consisted of no one but the companions?

Prophet (SAW) is the real deal. He is the infallible Prophet of Allah. He is the representative of Allah. He is the fundamental of Islam. To be a Muslim, you need to testify his (SAW) prophethood.


Islam is not about the people you choose. They do not become a part of your faith. It is about the People Allah chose, the people who the Prophet of Allah chose!! Who did Allah choose?

Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above the nations.
Quran [3:33]


wsalaam



Replies:
Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 07 September 2008 at 2:05am
 
 Were Abubakr and Umar not descedents of Ibraheem a.s. ??? I am sure they were. And they were close companions of the prophet s.a.w.s. They were elected (chosen) by the pious people (sahabah) under the will of Allah (as per verse 24:55) as the Khalifah Raashid.
 
 So Abubakr became the first Imam (leader) of the Ummah after the Prophet and Hazrat Umar r.a. became the second Imam after Abubakr r.a. They led the Ummah in the right direction bringing peace and stability for the young state of Muslims at Madinah.
 
 The two were included amongst the Ashra'a Mubashhara (The ten selected by Allah to be the companions of Paradise).
 
 They two of them were closely related to the prophet as a father-in-law. That is a very close and dear relation demanding respect. They had sacrificed much in the way of Allah, their property and brought many Arabs in the fold of Islam by their preachings. They remained with the prophet s.a.w.s. till his last breath.
 
 The prophet loved them very much. I am only pointing out the good works of the first two Imams of the ummah for the benefit of all Muslims of the Ummah for their rememberance and not to harbor any grudge (hatred) against these two brave gentlemen,  very senior members of the Ummah.  mm


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 07 September 2008 at 2:40am
 
Sahabas were the finest human beings over earth. They  accepted Muhammad { sallal lahu alaihi wasallam} as  our Prophet and enter into faith. They hold a high status in Islam, because they were the contemporaries of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him); they fulfilled the duty of supporting him and being loyal to him, and they strove for the sake of Allah with their efforts, their wealth and their selves. Refer to the next chapter, you quoted. i.e 48 : 29

" Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing falling down prostrate, seeking reward from Allah and acceptance. The mark of them is on their faces from the traces of prostration. This is their description in the Tawrah. But their description in the Injil is like a seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, and becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers, that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward"

And the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) praised them when he said: “The best of my ummah is my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them.” (al-Bukhaari, 3650; Muslim, 2535)

An other hadith - “Whoever insults my companions, the curse of Allah, the angels and all of mankind will be upon him.” (al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 2340).

Fear Allah; fear Allah and (Refrain from using bad language) about my Companions! (He said it twice) Do not make them the target of your attacks after me! Whoever loves them, loves them on account of his love of me; whoever hates them, hates them on account of his hatred of me. He who maligns them, has maligned me, and he who maligns me, has maligned Allah, and it is embedment that Allah punishes those who malign him.” (Tirmidhi)

In his Sahih, Muslim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, "Do not abuse my Companions, for by the One in Whose Hand is my soul! If one of you spends the amount of Uhud in gold, that amount will never reach the level of one of them spending a Mudd half of it"

These were the hadiths, which shall inshaAllah , help you to learn, as why we respect and love the companions of Prophet.

And regarding the verse you referred to, its was a general one. ANyways, we respect and love companions of our Prophet since  they are the elite and the best of this ummah, and that Allah gave them the honour of being the companions of the Messenger of Allah . He praised them in His Book . 
 
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 07 September 2008 at 5:26am
Salaams..

Were Abubakr and Umar not descedents of Ibraheem a.s. ??? I am sure they were. And they were close companions of the prophet s.a.w.s. They were elected (chosen) by the pious people (sahabah) under the will of Allah (as per verse 24:55) as the Khalifah Raashid.


have you even read the verse 24:55.....here i would like to point u out a very basic point in it:

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. [QURAN 24:55]

if this verse is talking about ure 1st caliph...was the method of apponting a caliph used ever before in the history of islam as it was in saqifa???


They led the Ummah in the right direction bringing peace and stability for the young state of Muslims at Madinah.

nice choice of words....y is it that peace and stability of madinah is important....y not of the WHOLE MUSLIM UMMAH....was the WHOLE MUSLIM UMMAH living in peace and stability..






now to seekshidayath:

you have quoted a beutiful verse from the quran..let me highlight to u something from it which u must hav missed:

48 : 29
" Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing falling down prostrate, seeking reward from Allah and acceptance. The mark of them is on their faces from the traces of prostration. This is their description in the Tawrah. But their description in the Injil is like a seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, and becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers, that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward"



well in short....Allah (s.w.t) has difined a group among the ppl around Prophet Muhammad (a.s) who will be righteous and will do good deeds etc etc...others will not be forgiven...




And the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) praised them when he said: “The best of my ummah is my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them.” (al-Bukhaari, 3650; Muslim, 2535)

An other hadith - “Whoever insults my companions, the curse of Allah, the angels and all of mankind will be upon him.” (al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 2340).

“Fear Allah; fear Allah and (Refrain from using bad language) about my Companions! (He said it twice) Do not make them the target of your attacks after me! Whoever loves them, loves them on account of his love of me; whoever hates them, hates them on account of his hatred of me. He who maligns them, has maligned me, and he who maligns me, has maligned Allah, and it is embedment that Allah punishes those who malign him.” (Tirmidhi)

In his Sahih, Muslim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, "Do not abuse my Companions, for by the One in Whose Hand is my soul! If one of you spends the amount of Uhud in gold, that amount will never reach the level of one of them spending a Mudd half of it"



dont u feel odd wen u read the above....and u soon read this:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html


are these the best of believers??? or....a part of the believers were staunch in their aqeedah????


in the hadith u hav quoted...even if i accept them as sahih...the Prophet (a.s) clearly mentions all of these merits for the companions...and not for those who went astray...who were the tru companions wen the prophet (a.s) was alive or after he died....

wsalaam


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 07 September 2008 at 6:27pm
 
asda, again you are trying to use some hadith to downplay the First Imam of the Ummah i.e. hazrat Abu bakr. r.a. And you are showing dissent with his election at saqifah. You can have it your way. Nobody will agree with you because you have the errors. I may post my comments easily on your post very soon. keep looking.
 You are trying to suggest that Hazrat Fatima was the only heir (Waarith) of the prophet s.a.w.s. and she was needy and she did not agree to the Khilafat of Hazrat Abu bakr and that she knew the Khilafat was for her husband Ali. But still she went to claim the garden (fadak) and she never went to Hazrat Abubakr r.a. for the right of her husband to Khilafat.
 
 All these are bad shia stories. We do not like them. But you can keep them. We don't believe that hazrat Ali and the ahle bait of Hazrat Ali were so bad as you people are depicting them as greedy people.
 
 The Shias have the agenda to prove that the Ummah was misled and was not fully trained to handle anything. That they were all raw and incapable and that they were Munafiq. What a shameful belief of the Shias which reflects badly on the quality of the prophet too. It teaches that the prophet was ignorant and did not produce a good man and the prophet did not know that his close ompanions and relatives were his enemies (Hypocrites).
 
 It is an old shameful attitude of the Shias. That is all.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 07 September 2008 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by asda

Salaams..


Were Abubakr and Umar not descedents of Ibraheem a.s. ??? I am sure they were. And they were close companions of the prophet s.a.w.s. They were elected (chosen) by the pious people (sahabah) under the will of Allah (as per verse 24:55) as the Khalifah Raashid.


   asda: have you even read the verse 24:55.....here i would like to point u out a very basic point in it:

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. [QURAN 24:55]

if this verse is talking about ure 1st caliph...was the method of apponting a caliph used ever before in the history of islam as it was in saqifa???
 
 Yes, it is talking about the Ist Khalifah and the second and the third Khalifah. Khalifah Raashid is always made by Allah. The verse says that Allah will surely establish Khilafat. And He did it. You are opposing Allah's Will.

They led the Ummah in the right direction bringing peace and stability for the young state of Muslims at Madinah.

nice choice of words....y is it that peace and stability of madinah is important....y not of the WHOLE MUSLIM UMMAH....was the WHOLE MUSLIM UMMAH living in peace and stability..

 There will be stability in Madinah (the capital) then there will be stability in the rest of the places. You wanted to destroy the peace of the state of Madinah with your plan of non-election of a Khalifah? The head of state has to be elected immediately and the man who dies may not even be buried until a new head (Imam) is elected.


now to seekshidayath:

you have quoted a beutiful verse from the quran..let me highlight to u something from it which u must hav missed:

48 : 29
" Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are severe against disbelievers, and merciful among themselves. You see them bowing falling down prostrate, seeking reward from Allah and acceptance. The mark of them is on their faces from the traces of prostration. This is their description in the Tawrah. But their description in the Injil is like a seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong, and becomes thick and it stands straight on its stem, delighting the sowers, that He may enrage the disbelievers with them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward"



well in short....Allah (s.w.t) has difined a group among the ppl around Prophet Muhammad (a.s) who will be righteous and will do good deeds etc etc...others will not be forgiven...

  Where is it in this verse that others will not be forgiven. You are putting or suggesting some words for nothing. Hazrat Ali is included in these people. What is your problem? Why you are adding words in the verse which are not there? The verse says " Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him ..... "  Allah has remembered them with good words. Those who are with the prophet s.a.w.s. But you seem to disagree....


   Seeks: And the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) praised them when he said: “The best of my ummah is my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them.” (al-Bukhaari, 3650; Muslim, 2535)

An other hadith - “Whoever insults my companions, the curse of Allah, the angels and all of mankind will be upon him.” (al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 2340).

“Fear Allah; fear Allah and (Refrain from using bad language) about my Companions! (He said it twice) Do not make them the target of your attacks after me! Whoever loves them, loves them on account of his love of me; whoever hates them, hates them on account of his hatred of me. He who maligns them, has maligned me, and he who maligns me, has maligned Allah, and it is embedment that Allah punishes those who malign him.” (Tirmidhi)

In his Sahih, Muslim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said, "Do not abuse my Companions, for by the One in Whose Hand is my soul! If one of you spends the amount of Uhud in gold, that amount will never reach the level of one of them spending a Mudd half of it"

 The above is a good advice to you because you seem to like the Hadith too much. So please learn a lesson from the above Ahadith.

  asda: dont u feel odd wen u read the above....and u soon read this:
 
 We do not soon read that. That is also a hadith which is fabricated. Because it puts a bad shape on Fatima, that she was greedy. The story seems to be fabricated. The reasons will be clear later.
 In a verse of the Quran, in chapter 33 near the end, it is written that those who displease ( and hurt) the believers, they are cursed by Allah. there is la'anat on them from Almighty Allah.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 07 September 2008 at 6:49pm
As'Salamu Alaikum
 
I picked up that verse deliberately, as its one amongst those verses, whose meaning is distorted by a group of people.
 
Now, lets look at these verses
 
 "He it is Who sent down As-Sakinah into the hearts of the believers, that they may grow more in faith along with their faith. And to Allah belong the armies of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise"- 48 : 4
 
48 : 5. That He may admit the believing men and the believing women to Gardens under which rivers flow to abide therein forever, and He may expiate from them their sins; and that is with Allah supreme success,
In these verses , Allah swt  has made mention of sending down sakinat (tranquillity) and of effecting increase in the Faith of all those Companions who were present with the Holy Prophet at Hudaibiyah, and given them without any exception the good news of admission into Paradise.
 
48 : 18. Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave the pledge to you under the tree, He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down As-Sakinah upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory
 
Remember, the sahabas, you all slander, were under this tree. { Its regarding Baithul- Ridwan} . AIIah has expressed His good pleasure for aII those who took the pledge to the Holy Prophet under the Tree, and in this also there is no exception. When these companions were given the glad tidings of Jannah, why shud we then make those differences loud  which were under a misconception and later cleared.
 
 
48 : 26. When those who disbelieve had put in their hearts pride and haughtiness -- the pride and haughtiness of the time of ignorance, -- then Allah sent down His calmness and tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and made them stick to the word of Taqwa; and they were well entitled to it and worthy of it. And Allah is the All-Knower of everything.
 
In verse 26 also AIIah has used the word mu 'minin (believers) for aII the Companions, has made mention of sending down His sakinat to there, and obliged them to be righteous and pious, for they were most worthy and deserving of aII mankind. Here also it was not said that the news was being given only abut those who were believers among them. Then in the initial sentences also of this verse itself the characteristics mentioned arc of alI those people who were with the Holy Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace and blessings). The words are to the effect that aII the people who are with him have this and this quality and characteristic. After this, suddenly in the last sentence there could be no excuse to say that some of them were the believers and others were not.

And regarding that hadith you shared, here it is in full. Let the readers read the whole hadith , which shall give them a good understanding, insha Allah
 
Narrated 'Aisha: (mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle. She used to ask Abu Bakr for her share from the property of Allah's Apostle which he left at Khaibar, and Fadak, and his property at Medina (devoted for charity). Abu Bakr refused to give her that property and said, "I will not leave anything Allah's Apostle used to do, because I am afraid that if I left something from the Prophet's tradition, then I would go astray." (Later on) Umar gave the Prophet's property (of Sadaqa) at Medina to 'Ali and 'Abbas, but he withheld the properties of Khaibar and Fadak in his custody and said, "These two properties are the Sadaqa which Allah's Apostle used to use for his expenditures and urgent needs. Now their management is to be entrusted to the ruler." (Az-Zuhrl said, "They have been managed in this way till today.")  (Book #53, Hadith #325)
 
ANd now the read the immediate next hadith
 
Narrated 'Aisha: Fatima the daughter of the Prophet sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of what Allah's Apostle had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the Khaibar booty. On that, Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do." So Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself. When Fatima was alive, the people used to respect 'Ali much, but after her death, 'Ali noticed a change in the people's attitude towards him. So Ali sought reconciliation with Abu Bakr and gave him an oath of allegiance. 'Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death). 'Ali sent someone to Abu Bakr saying, "Come to us, but let nobody come with you," as he disliked that 'Umar should come, 'Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No, by Allah, you shall not enter upon them alone " Abu Bakr said, "What do you think they will do to me? By Allah, I will go to them' So Abu Bakr entered upon them, and then 'Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Apostle ." Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Apostle is dearer to me than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Apostle following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that 'Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So when Abu Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then mentioned the story of 'Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting what excuses he had offered; Then 'Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favored him with. 'Ali added, "But we used to consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e. Abu Bakr) did not consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with 'Ali as he returned to what the people had done (i.e. giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr).  (Book #59, Hadith }
 
When Ali and Abu Bakr { RA } cleared there differences, then who are we to prolong it.
 
Also read this    :  For six months Ali and some of his relatives did not pledge loyalty to Abu Bakr. That was because of a difference of opinion with the Caliph. The holy Prophet had some land at Medina and Khaibar. His daughter, Fatima, and his uncle, Abbas, laid claim to this land. But Abu Bakr set aside the claim, in the light of what the holy Prophet himself had said. "We Prophets cannot be inherited," was his saying; "whatever we leave behind is public property."
 
Fatima knew nothing of this saying of her father. She thought she was perfectly right in her claim. This created a little bitterness in her mind, and the mind of her husband, Ali. The hypocrites were quick to add to the misunderstanding.
 
But Abu Bakr and Ali were equally unselfish. During Fatima's illness, Abu Bakr himself went to see her and cleared away the misunderstanding. After her death, Ali went to Abu Bakr and said, "O Siddiq, we admit your superiority. We do not envy the position Allah has given you. But as relatives of the holy Prophet, we thought Caliphate to be our right. You had taken away this right of ours."
 
These words brought tears in Abu Bakr's eyes and he said, "By Allah, the relatives of the Prophet are dearer to me than my own relatives."
The assurance satisfied Ali. He went to the mosque and publicly took the pledge of loyalty
 
You can check the authenticity of those hadiths quoted in my first post. Hope and pray Allah swt to bless us with this wealth of love for the companions of the Prophets.
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 07 September 2008 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by asda

Salaams...

The companions of Prophet (SAW) were normal fallible human beings.
 
 
 
 
This is a strawman and a willfull distortion of the topic. Your claim is not a "strong point" of Sunnis which you are trying to distort.
 
 
 
They were neither divine, nor sent by Allah.
 
 
Another strawman, for thinking that the companions were divine would be shirk. Hardly a "strong point" from Muslims. As far as being sent by Allah, I would love to know just how you have ascertained the mind of Allah and His relationship with mankind. I am guessing you do not have any real answers to my ojections and your points were just part of your hyporbole and over editorializing of the topic.
 
 
 
The companions of Prophet (SAW), who were sincere with Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and his mission, who strived hard in the way of Islam, who did good to themselves and to others, before and after the demise of Prophet (SAW), will enter paradise through the process of accountability. And to such companions of Prophet (SAW), we pay our tribute and sign of respect.
 
 
I agree.
 
 
 

But respecting all companions and loving all of them, claiming everyone of them to be truthful and pious, is wrong to the fundamentals of Quran and history.
 
Thats quite a sweeping generalization. The topic of the companions is not as simplistic, nor is the view of Muslims so simplistic of the topic. A certain amount of adhab is used when approaching any of them, which does not mean that adhab for all is equivalent to worshiping for a few, many, most, or any.
 
 
 
 
 
 When Allah himself doesn't promise forgiveness to all of the companions, except those who believe and do good, then who are we to attribute piety to every one of the companions?
 
 
 
Adhab and piety are not the same things. Instead of making claims which such gaping generalizations, why not clarify your stance.
 
 
 

If all companions of Prophet (SAW) were infallibles and couldn't make mistakes, then which men have been condemned in the Quran for displaying niggardly behavior with respect to Jihad;
 
 
And you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.
 
You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".
 
 
 
 
 

Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.
Quran [47:38]

Similarly, if all companions were saints, then can you show me from history that no Islamic punishment was ever legislated during the time of the Prophet (SAW) or the first four Caliphs, the era during which the Muslim community consisted of no one but the companions?
 
 
Another complex question (a fallacy), please establish that every person that came in contact with the prophet is a saint, from the position of Muslims. The rest of your question is perplexing. Please clarify.
 
 
 

Prophet (SAW) is the real deal. He is the infallible Prophet of Allah. He is the representative of Allah. He is the fundamental of Islam. To be a Muslim, you need to testify his (SAW) prophethood.
 
And what? This is an established Muslim belief.
 
 
 
 



Islam is not about the people you choose. They do not become a part of your faith. It is about the People Allah chose, the people who the Prophet of Allah chose!! Who did Allah choose?
 
 
 
 
Actually it is, since a person's piety is based upon their closeness to God, which can be ascertained. Furthermore, how are you able to read God's mind to know who He likes or does not like?
 
(a narrow interpretation of the Quran will not serve my skepticsim of your flawed sect)
 
 
 
 


Surely Allah chose Adam and Nuh and the descendants of Ibrahim and the descendants of Imran above the nations.
Quran [3:33]


wsalaam
 
 
This begs the question: So what? How does this prove your sect's basic claims? I will answer for you: It does not without some manipulation and supposition.
 
 
 


-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 08 September 2008 at 5:10am
Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem..
Salaams...

It is an old shameful attitude of the Shias. That is all.


hey...i can hav such hard attitute towards u...but i believe in facts...and just not accept something just because i like....does this show ure incapability to defend some of the acts of the sahaaba after the prophet (a.s)....

Yes, it is talking about the Ist Khalifah and the second and the third Khalifah. Khalifah Raashid is always made by Allah. The verse says that Allah will surely establish Khilafat. And He did it. You are opposing Allah's Will.


i asked u simple question....and u dint even try to answer it.....look at the Quranic words:

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. [QURAN 24:55>

i ask: Give me an example from the HISTORY OF ISLAM WHERE A KHALIPHA OF GOD WAS MADE AS (U SAY) IT WAS MADE IN SAQIFA????....the history of islam starts from Hazrat Adam (a.s)....just give me example of one caliph of Allah!!!!!


There will be stability in Madinah (the capital) then there will be stability in the rest of the places. You wanted to destroy the peace of the state of Madinah with your plan of non-election of a Khalifah? The head of state has to be elected immediately and the man who dies may not even be buried until a new head (Imam) is elected.


you forgot abu bakr's war on the ppl who dint give zakah to the new ruler....while the quran clearly states:
"There is no compulsion in religion"....was this peace....was this a caliph accepted the whole ummah as u claim??



Where is it in this verse that others will not be forgiven. You are putting or suggesting some words for nothing. Hazrat Ali is included in these people. What is your problem? Why you are adding words in the verse which are not there? The verse says " Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him ..... " Allah has remembered them with good words. Those who are with the prophet s.a.w.s. But you seem to disagree....


acha....read the words of Allah (s.w.t):
"Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward"

doesnt this clearly states that there r 2 groups among the sahaaba...for if one genrally says: among u there r ppl who are gud...doesnt that mean the rest are bad????


[QUOTE]We do not soon read that. That is also a hadith which is fabricated. Because it puts a bad shape on Fatima, that she was greedy. The story seems to be fabricated. The reasons will be clear later.
In a verse of the Quran, in chapter 33 near the end, it is written that those who displease ( and hurt) the believers, they are cursed by Allah. there is la'anat on them from Almighty Allah.[QUOTE]

is claiming ones own right called GREED????? ok now for example..someone goes and robs ure house (GOD FORBID!!)...and u go to the athorities to claim ure stuff....IS THIS GREED???? ARE U ACCUSING THE DOUGHTER OF THE PROPHET (A.s) OF GREED WEN SHE CAME TO CLAIM HER OWN RIGHTS????? (i am not shouting....just highlighting some facts and questions for u to answer).....

secondly...just because u dont like the hadith....that does not make it fabricated....surly..."those who displease the believers, they are cursed by Allah (s.w.t)"....wasnt H.z Fatima (s.a) a believer....infact she was the BEST OF THEM!!!

i hav thrown u a bunch of questions...will u still ignore them like the ones u ignored on the taraaweeh thread??


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 08 September 2008 at 6:33am
Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem.

now to seekhidayath:

br...uptill now i hav liked the replies which are based on quran and sunnah/hadith....and has some logic..

"He it is Who sent down As-Sakinah into the hearts of the believers, that they may grow more in faith along with their faith. And to Allah belong the armies of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Ever All-Knower, All-Wise"- 48 : 4

48 : 5. That He may admit the believing men and the believing women to Gardens under which rivers flow to abide therein forever, and He may expiate from them their sins; and that is with Allah supreme success,

In these verses , Allah swt has made mention of sending down sakinat (tranquillity) and of effecting increase in the Faith of all those Companions who were present with the Holy Prophet at Hudaibiyah, and given them without any exception the good news of admission into Paradise.

48 : 18. Indeed, Allah was pleased with the believers when they gave the pledge to you under the tree, He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down As-Sakinah upon them, and He rewarded them with a near victory

Remember, the sahabas, you all slander, were under this tree. { Its regarding Baithul- Ridwan} . AIIah has expressed His good pleasure for aII those who took the pledge to the Holy Prophet under the Tree, and in this also there is no exception. When these companions were given the glad tidings of Jannah, why shud we then make those differences loud which were under a misconception and later cleared.


48 : 26. When those who disbelieve had put in their hearts pride and haughtiness -- the pride and haughtiness of the time of ignorance, -- then Allah sent down His calmness and tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and made them stick to the word of Taqwa; and they were well entitled to it and worthy of it. And Allah is the All-Knower of everything.

In verse 26 also AIIah has used the word mu 'minin (believers) for aII the Companions, has made mention of sending down His sakinat to there, and obliged them to be righteous and pious, for they were most worthy and deserving of aII mankind. Here also it was not said that the news was being given only abut those who were believers among them. Then in the initial sentences also of this verse itself the characteristics mentioned arc of alI those people who were with the Holy Prophet Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace and blessings). The words are to the effect that aII the people who are with him have this and this quality and characteristic. After this, suddenly in the last sentence there could be no excuse to say that some of them were the believers and others were not.


i hav highlighted in bold something intresting among the verses u have shown me.....and now there is another aayah in the same surah...i am talking about verse number 10:

Surely those who swear allegiance to you do but swear allegiance to Allah; the hand of Allah is above their hands.Therefore whoever breaks (his faith), he breaks it only to the injury of his own soul, and whoever fulfills what he has covenanted with Allah, He will grant him a mighty reward. [QURAN 48:10]

if Allah knew what was in their hearts...then y is there an exception for those who break the pledge....did the sahaaba keep on the the pledge(which was not to run away from a battle)...dint they turn back at hunayn and khybar???

When Ali and Abu Bakr { RA } cleared there differences, then who are we to prolong it.


well then if this is the case: If Hadhrath Ali (as) had no differences with the first three Khalifa's why did he not participate in any battles that took place during their reigns, particularly when Jihad against the Kuffar is deemed a major duty upon the Muslim? If he did not view it as necessary at that time, then why did he during his own Khilafath whilst in his fifties unsheathe his sword and participate in the battles of Jamal, Sifeen and Naharwan?

Everyone knows the fact that Imam Ali (a.s) is the most brave and powerful among the ummah wen it comes to Jihad as can be seen in Khybar...


Secondly, there are many verses in the quran which talks about Material inheiritence by the Prophets:

Allah (swt) declares in Surah Naml 027.016:

And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"
Al-Qur'an, Surah 27, Ayah 16,

for the tafseer of this aayah we read in a sunni tafseer called Tafseer Kashaf:

"Waris refers to Kingdom and Prophethood"
Tafseer Kashaf, Volume 3 page 140


Fatima knew nothing of this saying of her father. She thought she was perfectly right in her claim. This created a little bitterness in her mind, and the mind of her husband, Ali. The hypocrites were quick to add to the misunderstanding.


So now u r telling me that h.z Fatima (a.s) dint know that the Prophet (a.s) does not inheirit..are u accusing the prophet (a.s) of not doing his work right...because it is not important for abu bakr to know this fact...but if this is tru, then Fatima (s.a) shud hav known it...

instead it is a well known fact that she was not happy with Abu Bakr till the time she died....

Shahih Bukhari (Vol 5 book 57 hadeeth 61) it says:

"Allahs apostle said: Fatima is a part of me and he who makes her angry makes me angry"


But Abu Bakr and Ali were equally unselfish. During Fatima's illness, Abu Bakr himself went to see her and cleared away the misunderstanding. After her death, Ali went to Abu Bakr and said, "O Siddiq, we admit your superiority. We do not envy the position Allah has given you. But as relatives of the holy Prophet, we thought Caliphate to be our right.You had taken away this right of ours."



i dont knw where did u bring the above quotation...but r u trying to say that Imam Ali (a.s) was lying??? u r accusing someone who has been garunteed Paradise (as u all say) of a lie??

You can check the authenticity of those hadiths quoted in my first post. Hope and pray Allah swt to bless us with this wealth of love for the companions of the Prophets.


i dont need to chk the authenticity of such hadith...beacuse I dont take religion from those books...Its just to show u some facts bro...Even if i did take my religion from those books...i would reject such a hadith beacuse its been narrated hy Aysha, who was an enemy of Imam Ali (a.s) as we can see in battle of Jamal...

well there are loads of topics discussed on the same thread..i wud request u not to debate jamal with me...stik to the topic which we have chosen....

May Allah give all of us the wealth of love of his prophets (a.s) and their true companions...who were steadfast after the Prophets (a.s) died...


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 08 September 2008 at 11:20pm
 
  ( My old comments are in pink. The present comments are in blue)
 
Originally posted by asda

Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem..
Salaams...

It is an old shameful attitude of the Shias. That is all.


hey...i can hav such hard attitute towards u...but i believe in facts...and just not accept something just because i like....does this show ure incapability to defend some of the acts of the sahaaba after the prophet (a.s)....


Yes, it is talking about the Ist Khalifah and the second and the third Khalifah. Khalifah Raashid is always made by Allah. The verse says that Allah will surely establish Khilafat. And He did it. You are opposing Allah's Will
  I had to say the harsh words because the Shias Do come back to abuse the most senior members of the Ummah. 


i asked u simple question....and u dint even try to answer it.....look at the Quranic words:

Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. [QURAN 24:55>

i ask: Give me an example from the HISTORY OF ISLAM WHERE A KHALIPHA OF GOD WAS MADE AS (U SAY) IT WAS MADE IN SAQIFA????....the history of islam starts from Hazrat Adam (a.s)....just give me example of one caliph of Allah!!!!!
 asda, please be easy. I am only talking about Khilafat e rashidah, i.e. upto the khailaft of Hazrat Ali r.a. After that the system had changed to kingship.. You tell me , Do you deny that Allah established Khilafat after the prophets. Allah says, he did it. In what way is different. In whatever way it was done, it was done in all times.
 
 This was a different matter. It is told in the Quran about Momineen "Their  important matters are decided by mutual consultation." That means Shoora. So the Khilafat was established by consultation and Hazrat Abu bakr was elected as the first Imam i.e. Ist Khalifah. And so on.

There will be stability in Madinah (the capital) then there will be stability in the rest of the places. You wanted to destroy the peace of the state of Madinah with your plan of non-election of a Khalifah? The head of state has to be elected immediately and the man who dies may not even be buried until a new head (Imam) is elected.


you forgot abu bakr's war on the ppl who dint give zakah to the new ruler....while the quran clearly states:
"There is no compulsion in religion"....was this peace....was this a caliph accepted the whole ummah as u claim??

 Now you are crying about Zakat. It appears that you are against Zakat too. What can I do? You have a different religion. Then if people skip the prayer, you would like freedom for them too. That no tolerance has other meaning. Not the one you are demanding. I am sure Hazrat Ali never used that menaing when he was the Khalifah.

Where is it in this verse that others will not be forgiven. You are putting or suggesting some words for nothing. Hazrat Ali is included in these people. What is your problem? Why you are adding words in the verse which are not there? The verse says " Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him ..... " Allah has remembered them with good words. Those who are with the prophet s.a.w.s. But you seem to disagree....[/QUOTE]

acha....read the words of Allah (s.w.t):
"Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward"

doesnt this clearly states that there r 2 groups among the sahaaba...for if one genrally says: among u there r ppl who are gud...doesnt that mean the rest are bad????
 
 I will have to check the reference. There is no problem in the verse. You seem to have the problem with it. You are making two groups, catching on the straws..  I am sure youare wrong. It is a special style of the Quran which is not being utilised in above translation. give ref.

[QUOTE]We do not soon read that. That is also a hadith which is fabricated. Because it puts a bad shape on Fatima, that she was greedy. The story seems to be fabricated. The reasons will be clear later.
In a verse of the Quran, in chapter 33 near the end, it is written that those who displease ( and hurt) the believers, they are cursed by Allah. there is la'anat on them from Almighty Allah
.[QUOTE]

  is claiming ones own right called GREED????? ok now for example..someone goes and robs ure house (GOD FORBID!!)...and u go to the athorities to claim ure stuff....IS THIS GREED???? ARE U ACCUSING THE DOUGHTER OF THE PROPHET (A.s) OF GREED WEN SHE CAME TO CLAIM HER OWN RIGHTS????? (i am not shouting....just highlighting some facts and questions for u to answer).....
 There was no such case that you are building. The Caliph Abubakr r.a. did the right thing. You are only making up a case on the basis of some doubtful Ahadith. I am sure you are all wrong. There was a court system in the country. Why did not hazrat Ali, being more knowledgable, accompany fatima in this case. Why did notthe people of Madinah interfere in the matter. Youthink they were all ignorant and no one new the rules.
 
 Was Fatima the only Heir? The Shias have a funny way. They think that prophet had no children except Fatima. The prophet had no surviving son. And the Shias say that fatima was the only daughter. That means the prophet had only one child i.e. a dughter. How come?
 

secondly...just because u dont like the hadith....that does not make it fabricated....surly..."those who displease the believers, they are cursed by Allah (s.w.t)"....wasnt H.z Fatima (s.a) a believer....infact she was the BEST OF THEM!!!
  You cannot say that she was the best one. Otherwise she would not have gone asking for fadak and would not have argued with Abubakr, the elected head of State. She was very good, no doubt.
 
 I feel that she did not do anything bad. The Shias are building a case to downplay the great Sahabah. Hazrat Ali and Fatima and Hasan and Hussain were allwelland happy under the Khalifas. There was no conflict.
 
 But at the time of Hazrat Ali, after the Khalifah (Uthman)  had been killed in the capital, there was no peace and no truth. So all types of stories can be fabricated.
[quote]
i hav thrown u a bunch of questions...will u still ignore them like the ones u ignored on the taraaweeh thread??
 
 No I did not do any such thing. You please go and read my replies n the Traveeh section. All is there. Rather I have aske dyou some specific questions and I need a reply to those questions from you. Then picture will become very clear about Traveeh too.
 
 You keep on sending your points. We will consider them. But do not forget about Sunnat. Sunnat is before any Hadith. Do not say that Sunat cannot be proved without Hadith. Welcome.


-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 6:24am
Salaam

I had to say the harsh words because the Shias Do come back to abuse the most senior members of the Ummah.

did i abuse any of them???....shud i talk with u like this just because many sunnis say that shias are waajibul qatl...or shud i talk with u like this just because u accuse the prophet (a.s) of making mistakes??

see y do u treat everybody with the same attitude...and this is how hate and frustration increases....this forum is made to discuss...and not to accuse anybody...or use such harsh language..or wat is the use of this forum....like hooligans one shud go out and start fighting....we shud all treat each other in a respectable manner...



asda, please be easy. I am only talking about Khilafat e rashidah, i.e. upto the khailaft of Hazrat Ali r.a. After that the system had changed to kingship.. You tell me , Do you deny that Allah established Khilafat after the prophets. Allah says, he did it. In what way is different. In whatever way it was done, it was done in all times.

yah...Khilafat of Allah (s.w.t) did exist..with Imam Ali (a.s)....but people dint accept it...as was the case with h.z Harun (a.s)....they disobeyed him...He was the Caliph of Allah (s.w.t)as well....and the khilafah Rashidiyah is man made khilafah...


my question still remains....


Allah has promised to those of you who believe and do good that He will most certainly make them rulers in the earth as He made rulers those before them, and that He will most certainly establish for them their religion which He has chosen for them, and that He will most certainly, after their fear, give them security in exchange; they shall serve Me, not associating aught with Me; and whoever is ungrateful after this, these it is who are the. transgressors. [QURAN 24:55>

i ask: Give me an example from the HISTORY OF ISLAM WHERE A KHALIPHA OF GOD WAS MADE AS (U SAY) IT WAS MADE IN SAQIFA????....the history of islam starts from Hazrat Adam (a.s)....just give me example of one caliph of Allah!!!!!


i can give u a simple example of Hazrat Harun (a.s) being appointed by Allah (s.w.t)

وَوَاعَدْنَا مُوسَى ثَلاَثِينَ لَيْلَةً وَأَتْمَمْنَاهَا بِعَشْرٍ فَتَمَّ مِيقَاتُ رَبِّهِ أَرْبَعِينَ لَيْلَةً وَقَالَ مُوسَى لأَخِيهِ هَارُونَ اخْلُفْنِي فِي قَوْمِي وَأَصْلِحْ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ سَبِيلَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ {142}
And We appointed with Musa a time of thirty nights and completed them with ten (more), so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights, and Musa said to his brother Haroun: Take my place among my people, and act well and do not follow the way of the mischief-makers. (QURAN 7:142)

now u will say that H.z Harun(a.s) died before H.z Musa(a.s)..and so this is not an appropriate example...well the fact is....he was appointed directly by Allah (s.w.t)...and not elected by ppl...and thats the point i am trying to show...it is how a khalifa is appointed thats important...

so if khilafat e rashida is kilafatullah (maazallah), then give me one example from the History of Islam...simple..








Now you are crying about Zakat. It appears that you are against Zakat too. What can I do? You have a different religion. Then if people skip the prayer, you would like freedom for them too. That no tolerance has other meaning. Not the one you are demanding. I am sure Hazrat Ali never used that menaing when he was the Khalifah.


crying??? well do u wanna debate like proper human beings??? pls do so if u can....and...i was just trying to show u that the whole "ummah" dint accept him as caliph....








I will have to check the reference. There is no problem in the verse. You seem to have the problem with it. You are making two groups, catching on the straws.. I am sure youare wrong. It is a special style of the Quran which is not being utilised in above translation. give ref.

look at the words i have highlighted....
what can i say on ure assumptions.....are u practicing black magic??
"Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous good deeds, forgiveness and a mighty reward" [Quran 48:29]


well the translation says it clearly....its crystal clear bro...








There was no such case that you are building. The Caliph Abubakr r.a. did the right thing. You are only making up a case on the basis of some doubtful Ahadith. I am sure you are all wrong. There was a court system in the country.Why did not hazrat Ali, being more knowledgable, accompany fatima in this case.Why did notthe people of Madinah interfere in the matter. Youthink they were all ignorant and no one new the rules.


read Imam Ali (a.s)'s position:

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349

Umar's Words:
When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadhrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.



Was Fatima the only Heir?


was the hujra's(those small houses)of the Prophet (a.s)'s wife taken away??

They think that prophet had no children except Fatima.

This is wat the majority accepts....but still there are variations in opinion...if u dint knw....

How come?

u dont make sense here...read ure whole paragraph....u r just moving in rounds...


You cannot say that she was the best one. Otherwise she would not have gone asking for fadak and would not have argued with Abubakr, the elected head of State. She was very good, no doubt.



How can u lower her postion...
That Prophet of Islam described Fatima as follows: "The leader of all the ladies of Paradise." (Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 4, p.819.)

and i may remind u something:
وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَى {3}
[Quran 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى {4}
[Quran 53:4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,


and the Prophet (a.s) has also said:
"Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry." (Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, p. 61.)

and i want to again remind u:

3}
[Quran 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَى {4}
[Quran 53:4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,



wsalaam


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 8:34pm

 

 asda, you have differing knowledge about Islam. You say that the first three Khalifas were elected by men and not appointed by Allah. But Hazrat Ali only was appointed as Khalifah by Allah. 

 Q1. Can you show me how Hazrat Ali was appointed by Allah?

 Your knowledge about Hazrat harun is also very weak. He was the Khalifah only during a short time when Hazrat Musa went on the mount. He was not a Khalifah for all times.

 Similarly, hazrat Ali was made a Khalifah for a short time during a war. That was not for ever more. That was when the prophet and Abubakr and Hazrat Umar and Uthman had all gone away from the city of Madinah.

 Hazrat Ali also wanted to go with the war party and did not want to remain behind. The prophet consoled him with the words that he would be representing him in the city. So hazrat Ali was left behind to look after the ladies and children. Some one was needed in the city in the absence of the very senior important people.

 That Khilafat of Hazrat Ali finished as soon as the prophet and senior Sahabah came back from their mission.

 I will post further about your ideas. No offence. I hope you will not give me any chance to use any harsh words. It all depends on you. The moment I detect that you have used any bad word about the senior Sahabah or about the mothers of the faithful then I will check you.

 So I have only replied to your Harun statements and about the short time Khilafat of Hazrat Ali. I had informed you that the matters are decided by Mushawarat (consultation). There is no family affair in Islam. Otherwise it will be like did Hazrat Mua'awiyah that he made his son Yazeed the Khalifah.

 Q 2.  Do you want  a similar system in Islam?  That is the system of the kings. Or the Hindus have a caste system. The son of a Brahmin is a Brahmin, a sacred cow? (more later when I read your reply carefully)



-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 09 September 2008 at 10:19pm
 
Minuteman lets not proceed with the discussions further. WHat's the use of the discussion, wherein the starter of the topic, is rejecting hadiths just because it is of Ayesha RA, whom they considers an enemy.  {as posted in his post}. Why did you then use that hadith in your earlier post which was narrated by Ayesha RA ?
 
 Did n't you read that slandering any companion of the Prophets is wrong ? Is that not enough for you ?
 
 Anyways, we shall proceed and reply your posts, only when you answer Bro. Andalus's questions. Else these debate would lead nowhere except, disturbing peace of this site.
 
 
 
 


-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 2:17am
br minuteman...i will reply u later as ure post needs time...

Minuteman lets not proceed with the discussions further. WHat's the use of the discussion, wherein the starter of the topic, is rejecting hadiths just because it is of Ayesha RA, whom they considers an enemy. {as posted in his post}.


well in matters related to Maula Ali (a.s), one cannot take the words of his enemies...and if the truth is otherwise, then u can prove it to me on another thread..i can seriosly consider ure views..

Did n't you read that slandering any companion of the Prophets is wrong ? Is that not enough for you ?


i have already given an answer to u...


Else these debate would lead nowhere except, disturbing peace of this site.


well if this is the case...then i challenge u...show me one sentence where i have even said that sunnis have fake/vague/pontless/sensless etc etc (and other harsh words) belief.......i have never been harsh on u all...seeing the fact that these forums are made for a fact to discuss...thats it..and if i am anywhere SPOILING THE PEACE on this forum...then give me one sentence (from my post)where i hav acted rude...

on br andalus's post...i will do that next..and then reply to br.minuteman


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 3:02am
This is a strawman and a willfull distortion of the topic. Your claim is not a "strong point" of Sunnis which you are trying to distort.


thats a general fact...

Another strawman, for thinking that the companions were divine would be shirk. Hardly a "strong point" from Muslims. As far as being sent by Allah, I would love to know just how you have ascertained the mind of Allah and His relationship with mankind. I am guessing you do not have any real answers to my ojections and your points were just part of your hyporbole and over editorializing of the topic.


if the sahaaba dint exist...wud prophet muhammad (a.s)'s mission had failed??u knw the answer..


Thats quite a sweeping generalization. The topic of the companions is not as simplistic, nor is the view of Muslims so simplistic of the topic. A certain amount of adhab is used when approaching any of them, which does not mean that adhab for all is equivalent to worshiping for a few, many, most, or any.


well its not genralized???then we stand at the same point...cuz above i have been debating about the fact that all companions in "general" was not on haq...


Adhab and piety are not the same things. Instead of making claims which such gaping generalizations, why not clarify your stance.


wat clarification do u need...plz clarify...


And you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".[/QIAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".UPTAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established"


well look at the next aayah..



Another complex question (a fallacy), please establish that every person that came in contact with the prophet is a saint, from the position of Muslims. The rest of your question is perplexing. Please clarify.


not every person...but as u say...all the sahaaba has the "as-sakinah"...


how are you able to read God's mind to know who He likes or does not like?

now u r making it complex...well the quran is the best way know Allah (s.w.t)...tho he is above our understanding...but we can upto a certain level.



This begs the question: So what? How does this prove your sect's basic claims? I will answer for you: It does not without some manipulation and supposition.


the aayah is just an example of the point made above it...and u have taken it seperately..


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 4:26pm
asda, you have differing knowledge about Islam. You say that the first three Khalifas were elected by men and not appointed by Allah. But Hazrat Ali only was appointed as Khalifah by Allah.


well thats the truth..

Q1. Can you show me how Hazrat Ali was appointed by Allah?


well this questions has thousands of answers....well i know only a few of them...shud i relate to u the event of ghadir e khum, or the verse of vilayah, the comparision of Aaron with Moses (may peace be on both of them) with prophet muhammad (a.s) and Maula Ali (a.s)...the laws of Successorship in Quran (well thats a bit inter-related).....and umm..i cant remember any more...other answers i know here and there....


well we can start with gadhir e khum....which is the clear most event of appointment of Imam Ali (a.s) as his (a.s) successor..




the Prophet (PBUH&HF) stopped on that place (the pond of Khum) which was extremely hot. Then he sent for all people who have been ahead in the way, to come back and waited until all pilgrims who fell behind, arrived and gathered. He ordered Salman (RA) to use rocks and camel
toolings to make a pulpit (minbar) so he could make his announcement.

On this day the Messenger of Allah spent approximately five ours in this place; three hours of which he was on the pulpit. He recited nearly one hundred verses from The Glorious Quran, and for seventy three times reminded and warned people of their deeds and future. Then he gave them a long speech. The following is a part of his speech which has been widely narrated by the Sunni traditionists:

The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right (Awla) over the believers than what they have over themselves?" People cried and answered: "Yes, O' Messenger of God." Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the hand of Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."


Some of the Sunni references:
(1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
(2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
(3) Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 4,21
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
(5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370,
    372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
(6) Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
(7) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(9) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(10) Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
(11) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
(12) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
(13) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
(14) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
(15) Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
(16) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319,
     v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
(17) Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn
     al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas,
     Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...
(18) Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
(19) Hilyatul Awliya', by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
(20) al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn" (Ali), v2, p462
(21) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
(22) al-Mirqat, v5, p568
(23) al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
(24) Dhaka'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
(25) Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217
(26) Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p297

Let me remind u that the hadith of Ghadir is a mutawaatir Hadith....

well the argument which is done by the sunnis is that the word MAWLA means "friend"...our response:

we cant look at one sentence of the hadith and make an assumption....the word mawla has various meanings....infact the root of the word Mawla as far as i know is the word AWLA....the word AWLA means athority...well i wud request u to go up and look back at the full saying of the Prophet (a.s)...and here is the arabic narration just to make it ez:

     
حدثنا ابن نمير حدثنا عبد الملك يعني ابن أبي سليمان عن عطية العوفي قال سألت زيد بن أرقم فقلت له إن ختنا لي حدثني عنك بحديث في شأن علي رضي الله تعالى عنه يوم غدير خم فأنا أحب أن أسمعه منك فقال إنكم معشر أهل العراق فيكم ما فيكم فقلت له ليس عليك مني بأس فقال نعم كنا بالجحفة فخرج رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إلينا ظهرا وهو آخذ بعضد علي رضي الله تعالى عنه فقال يا أيها الناس ألستم تعلمون أني أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم قالوا بلى قال فمن كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه قال فقلت له هل قال اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه قال إنما أخبرك كما سمعت

look at the words AWLA (i cant highlight it...cuz aint working right)....the prophet simple asks:
"Do I not have more right (Awla) over the believers than what they have over themselves?"

and the rest of the ppl reply positively....now abviosly the Prophet (a.s) is talking about leadership in the above sentence...and surly its common sense to say that the topic of leadership was being discussed...therefore next the prophet (a.s) says: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla)."


the sunni support their case of mawla's meaning to be a "friend" with an event that happend in yemen...if that was the case then common sense says that the prophet (a.s) wud just adress them calling them personally...and not delivering a speach where he mentions that he is gonna die soon in the 1st sentence...

"Had he desired to just show `Ali's contributions, and to rebut those who bore grudge against him, he (pbuh) would simply have said: "This is my cousin, my son­in­law, the father of my descendants, the master of my household; therefore, do not harm him," or something like this to show mere admission of status and dignity. But the way this hadith is worded gives no impression other than what we have suggested. It points out rational and deductive proofs."



This is one of the places where the Prophet (a.s) clearly indicated the fact that Imam Ali (a.s) was his successor...


Your knowledge about Hazrat harun is also very weak. He was the Khalifah only during a short time when Hazrat Musa went on the mount. He was not a Khalifah for all times.


i knw that...and i did mention the fact that he died b4 h.Musa....but the main point to look at is how he was appointed...even for a second....
well if u want more examples from the history of Islam, i can bring them to u..



I will post further about your ideas. No offence. I hope you will not give me any chance to use any harsh words. It all depends on you. The moment I detect that you have used any bad word about the senior Sahabah or about the mothers of the faithful then I will check you.


inshallah we will debate in an healthy manner and respect each other's leaders...even if they are scholars...and think about the facts presented...and not just deny it just because it goes against what has been taught from childhood.....


So I have only replied to your Harun statements and about the short time Khilafat of Hazrat Ali. I had informed you that the matters are decided by Mushawarat (consultation). There is no family affair in Islam. Otherwise it will be like did Hazrat Mua'awiyah that he made his son Yazeed the Khalifah.


any one example from the past where the khilafat of Allah (s.w.t) was established by Mushawarat among "HUMANS"??? as the quran mentions the criteria of future caliphs of Allah (s.w.t)...


Q 2. Do you want a similar system in Islam? That is the system of the kings. Or the Hindus have a caste system. The son of a Brahmin is a Brahmin, a sacred cow? (more later when I read your reply carefully)


well the fathers (a.s) dint appoint the son as an Imam...Allah (s.w.t) did so...
and u r opening another chapter of Khilafat..u say that Imamat is like kingdom...which is not the fact...kingdom is where the earlier ruler appoints the latter...and its not true here.....

we better discuss one point....actually this debate has gone thru varios topics...and suddenly we r not discussing Sahaaba (as is the topic) and we r discussing Imamat/Khilafat...do u think we shud continue on another thread and leave this for discussing the acts of the sahaaba???


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 10:54pm
 
 asda, thanks for your reply. It has been noticed hat even you may not have been harsh but you have one way traffic. Youhave things of your own choice and you will reject the presentations of others. So how can the truth be decided. I am sure that you and your entire group is wrong. The reason being hatred of the very senior members of the Ummah.
 
 Now I am calling you wrong. I hope it is not abuse.
 
 I have full reply for your wrong ideas and I would reply if permitted by Seeks...
 
 As for as your Maula:
 
 Read please the meaning of maula in your maula of Ghadeer. The meaning you have given is authority: By that you mean Haakim or ruler, I suppose. Now read:
 
 If I am the ruler of some one then Ali is the ruler of that one. O, Allah, you also be the ruler of that one who is the ruler of Ali and you also be the enemy of the one who is the enemy of Ali.
 
  You can see the things now. Is it not a joke?. Maula is every where as your ruler in the translation of that hadith which is not authentic. i will prove it soon. What do you say, the above translation is right or wrong?
 
 And please do not give any Hadith business. I have told you before. First we should have Quran. And your case of Haroon a.s. does not fit. He was a prophet. He was khalifah for a short time as long as Hazrat Musa a.s was away from the place. Do you have such a similar thing for Hazrat Ali in the Quran?
 
 I shall look forward to the advice of Seeks to proceed further in this matter.
 
 
 
 If


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 10:57pm
 
 asda, I am waiting for your reply to the four questions that I raised in the other thread i.e. Traveeh.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 10 September 2008 at 10:59pm
 
 To Seeks:  asda has again entered the field. I am sorry that I have acted against your advice. Please guide or do something. Thanks.


-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 11 September 2008 at 5:48am
asda, thanks for your reply. It has been noticed hat even you may not have been harsh but you have one way traffic. Youhave things of your own choice and you will reject the presentations of others. So how can the truth be decided. I am sure that you and your entire group is wrong. The reason being hatred of the very senior members of the Ummah.


well give me ONE sentence from u which i hav denied without proof and reasoning..if there is then inshallah i will sort it out....
if the ppl u call "senior members of the ummah" so gud...then y did the Prophet (a.s)'s own doughter never spoke with them till she died??u knw the status of bibi Fatima Az-Zahraa (s.a)!!!!how can anybody hurt her and think that the Prophet (a.s) will be happy with him...if anybody hurts ure daughter (god forbid!!) will u ever like that person??
and if the Prophet (a.s) is not happy with such a person...then how can u even think they are worthy of praise??

Now I am calling you wrong. I hope it is not abuse.

that is nothing but a stubborn attitude u have....

If I am the ruler of some one then Ali is the ruler of that one. O, Allah, you also be the ruler of that one who is the ruler of Ali and you also be the enemy of the one who is the enemy of Ali.


well the "WAAALI" (and not mawla...i hope u can read arabic) is there a connection between the that word with "MAWLA" and "AWLA"????...

chalo u want 2 way traffic....well even if i accept ure translation as being friend...then y wud the prophet (a.s) would give so much importance to this and deliver a whole speach due to the fact that a few ppl disliked Imam Ali (a.s)....he would hav just gone and tole them that Imam Ali (a.s) is with "HAQ"...and y did the prophet (a.s) mention the fact that he is gonna die soon..and thirdly y would this event take place:

خرجنا مع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم حتى نزلنا غدير خم بعث مناديا ينادي فلما اجتمعنا قال : ألست أولى بكم من أنفسكم ؟ ‏قلنا : بلى يارسول الله ، قال : ألست أولى بكم من امهاتكم ؟ قلنا : بلى يا رسول الله ، قال : ألست أولى بكم من آبائكم ؟ قلنا : ‏بلى يا رسول الله ، قال : ألست ؟ ألست ؟ ألست ؟ قلنا: بلى يارسول الله ، قال : من كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه ( 1 ) أللهم وال من ‏والاه ، وعاد من عاداه ، فقال عمر بن الخطاب : هنيئا لك يابن ابي طالب أصبحت اليوم ولي كل مؤمن‎

Traveling with the Messenger of Allah [s], we stopped at the pond of Khumm and the Prophet [s] sent someone to call upon people to gather. When we came together he said: ‘Do I not have more right with you than your own selves?’ We said: ‘Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!’ He continued: ‘Do I not have more right with you than your mothers?’ We said: ‘Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!’ He continued: ‘Do I not have more right with you than your fathers?’ We replied: ‘Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!’ He kept asking ‘Do I not have’, and we kept answering ‘Yes indeed, O Messenger of Allah!’ He concluded: ‘To whoever I am his master, ‘Ali is his master. O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him.’ 'Umar b. al-Khattab said: ‘Congratulations O Ibn Abi Talib, today you have become the master(MAWLA) of every believer.’

Al-Bidayah wa'l-Nihayah fi al-Ta'rikh   
Cairo: Matba`at al-Sa`adah (14 vols), 1932- vol. 7, p. 349    
Mishkat al-Masabih   
Damascus: al-Maktab al-islami (3 vols), 1961-62 vol. 3, p. 246    
Al-Musannaf   
Karachi: Idara al-Qur'an wa al-`ulum al-Islamiyyah (15 vols in 16 parts), 1987 CE vol. 12, p. 78
Ta'rikh Baghdad   
Beirut: Dar al-kutub al-`arabi (18 vols), n.d. vol. 8, p. 290    
and this tridation is available in more books...


now if ure translation is correct then adding friend as mawla does not make sense.....i mean...how many times u hav been congratulated on making Friends.....:NONE....isnt it....


the waali means friend as it gets clear in the other part of the sentence...

I shall look forward to the advice of Seeks to proceed further in this matter.


i again would like to remind u that i dint force u to debate me....u came at ure own will......infact many sunni scholars do their best to keep the two parties i.e shia and sunnis away from each other...for facts known to them only...i hardly know a sunni to shia convert who has not been scolded by a sunni scholar(in his sunni days) for being in contact with the shias...


infact, more than making each other convert.....we should more focus on how to bring peace within the two groups to have unity among muslims.....and discussing these matters do help know each other.....while it is in instincts of a human to accept the truth.....


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 11 September 2008 at 10:27am

....just give me example of one caliph of Allah!!!!! 

No one is the successor of Allah. I'm sure you said it out of ignorance.

...i was just trying to show u that the whole "ummah" dint accept him as caliph....
 
Whole ummah? Munafiqs, zakat deniers, Musailama and the other false prophets?
 
"Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry." (sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, p. 61.)

and i want to again remind u:
[Quran 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.
 
[Quran 53:4] It is naught but revealation that is revealed,
 
True. The Quran and everything concerning belief and worship is by wahi. But not all sayings and actions of the Prophet were by wahi. Some of his sayings and actions were reproved by Allah in the Quran. See 66:1, 9:43, 80:1-11 and 8:67-68.
 
Verse 8:67-68 was a reproval for a decision the prophet took rejecting Umar al Faruq's opinion and this verse proved that the latter was right.
 

 


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 11 September 2008 at 11:01am
Quran 48:18
Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance unto thee beneath the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down peace of reassurance on them, and hath rewarded them with a near victory.
 
To say that most of the people, who Allah attests as believers in this verse, later became unbelievers, is tantamount to disbelief. Allah would never have attested their belief if they had gone on to disbelieve and He surely would not have been pleased with the deeds of people who would become unbelievers.
 
Quran 24:23
Lo! as for those who traduce virtuous, believing women (who are) careless, cursed are they in the world and the Hereafter. Theirs will be an awful doom.
 
To continue slandering Aisha (ra) when Allah has attested her belief and chastity is also tantamount to disbelief. 



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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 11 September 2008 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by asda

This is a strawman and a willfull distortion of the topic. Your claim is not a "strong point" of Sunnis which you are trying to distort.

thats a general fact...
 
 
What I find very telling about you is that are simply regurgitating (pasting) Shia diatribe, because in this entire reply from you, all you have done is "repeat" yourself, as if repeating various fallacies will some how make them true.
 
 
If it is a "general fact", then show that the general applies to particulars. You cannot assert your way through a discussion. If you will not back up your claims, then I will close this thread. It is that simple.
 
 
 
 
 


Another strawman, for thinking that the companions were divine would be shirk. Hardly a "strong point" from Muslims. As far as being sent by Allah, I would love to know just how you have ascertained the mind of Allah and His relationship with mankind. I am guessing you do not have any real answers to my ojections and your points were just part of your hyporbole and over editorializing of the topic.


if the sahaaba dint exist...wud prophet muhammad (a.s)'s mission had failed??u knw the answer..

 
 
 
"u knw"..."cuz"..????? I am not one of your "texting buddies" in class.  Appearance goes a long way, and you might be taken much more serious if you used real words.
 
 
Now, about your reply, once again you did not respond to what I stated. In fact, your reply is completely irrelevant. You made a claim, and I am calling you on it. You now have comitted a fallacy of "irrelevancy".
 
 
 
1) Show that Muslims worship the sahaba?
2) Show how you are able to ascertain whether or not some was/or was not sent by God?
 
 

Thats quite a sweeping generalization. The topic of the companions is not as simplistic, nor is the view of Muslims so simplistic of the topic. A certain amount of adhab is used when approaching any of them, which does not mean that adhab for all is equivalent to worshiping for a few, many, most, or any.


well its not genralized???then we stand at the same point...cuz above i have been debating about the fact that all companions in "general" was not on haq...

 
 
Not only is your texting style usage of words annoying, but you are unable to put out a coherent response. Are you now asking me if your claim is true? Are you telling me it is true? If it is a "general fact", then it should not be difficult for you to establish it here and now beyond your rediculous assertions. You seem to know more about my faith then I do. Astounding!
 
You are able to ascertain which companions were not of God and which were? Shi'ites never seem to amaze me. Please, show us the methodology you use to determine which companion was not of God and which was? As of now, you are trying to use unargued assertions to try and smear whoever you like. If you are unable to begin providing a criteria, a case, an example, that begins to show your claim of a "general fact", then this thread is closed.
 
 
 
 

Adhab and piety are not the same things. Instead of making claims which such gaping generalizations, why not clarify your stance.


wat clarification do u need...plz clarify...

 
 
The same clarification I have been asking for from the beginning that you are now avoiding, in part because you are limited to copying and pasting Shia polemics, but you are unable to get into the "nitty gritty" of the discussion. Your attempt to play obtuse is entertaining.
 
 
 

And you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".[/QIAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".UPTAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example.

You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established"


well look at the next aayah..

 
 
 
I do not need you to give me a verse from the Quran along with your official SHi'ite exegesis of the passage. You are full of assertions, what we need is for you to establish your first, basic claims.
 
 
 
 


Another complex question (a fallacy), please establish that every person that came in contact with the prophet is a saint, from the position of Muslims. The rest of your question is perplexing. Please clarify.

not every person...but as u say...all the sahaaba has the "as-sakinah"...

 
 
 
About your claim, please establish this belief we have. Clarify (not a quote from your websites or another assertion).
 
 
 
 
 

how are you able to read God's mind to know who He likes or does not like?

now u r making it complex...well the quran is the best way know Allah (s.w.t)...tho he is above our understanding...but we can upto a certain level.

 
It is not a complex question. There are no unargued claims buried in the premise of the question. It is not "complex". It is a a valid question pertaining to your claims.
 
 
 


This begs the question: So what? How does this prove your sect's basic claims? I will answer for you: It does not without some manipulation and supposition.


the aayah is just an example of the point made above it...and u have taken it seperately..
 
 
What point was that? You have made unargued assertions, and now you want to use a verse from the Quran and then handwave your interpretation? Willful distortions do not count as valid, or even reasonable claims.


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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 11 September 2008 at 10:45pm
 
Originally posted by asda

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html


are these the best of believers??? or....a part of the believers were staunch in their aqeedah????

 
 
Keep in mind that this thread has not stayed on topic. You have used this as an opportunity to dump Shia polemics. It is unreasonable to expect Muslims to jump and reply to every red herring you throw out. It no longer becomes a discussion, and it is simply you launching pasted claim from a shia polemical source. I am very close to closing this thread. If you want to have a seperate discussion about Fatima, or who the leaders are supposed to be, then open seperate threads. I will respond briefly to this one incident you have pasted.
 
 
Before I begin, I suspect that the website you are going to has an author who is in great need of a basic course in critical thinking. And this will become evident as we read on.
 
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.
 
 
 

1) Your claim makes the assertion (unproven) that she asked for the property BECAUSE it was ever given to her.
2) This is a Shia distortion, as there are no books authored by the Ahl Assunat who have stated that the property did indeed belong to her, or was given to her.
3) There are no Islamic books that have established that the property was ever given to her, or that she asked for it because it was given to her.
 
 
In fact, there are strong ahadith that establish the order concerning the prophet's statement about the relationship between a prophet, his inheritance, and his family. But this does not concern you, as Shi'ites only pick out the hadith that they can use and ignore everything else.
 
 
 

in the hadith u hav quoted...even if i accept them as sahih...the Prophet (a.s) clearly mentions all of these merits for the companions...and not for those who went astray...who were the tru companions wen the prophet (a.s) was alive or after he died....

wsalaam
 
 
What methodology do you use to accept or reject our hadith?
 
You see, it matters not what hadith we give you, since you are under no obligation to believe them. Your only method so far is that the hadith must agree with the absurd supposition of your sect. Such a methodology, my friend, is completely weak and unfounded and denies credebility to your claims.


-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 12 September 2008 at 12:45pm
My Replies are in BROWN


Originally posted by Saladin

....just give me example of one caliph of Allah!!!!! 


No one is the successor of Allah. I'm sure you said it out of ignorance....

my ignorance or ures..does caliph means successor....well if it does then who's successor was h.Adam when Allah (s.w.t) has said:
When Allah said to the angels Indeed I will establish a Calipha on this earth…’ [QURAN al-baqarah, 30>

wasnt the supposed calipha to be was H.Adam...and since hazrat Adam was the 1st man on earh....and if successor means caliph....then who's caliph was H.Adam???



i was just trying to show u that the whole "ummah" dint accept him as caliph....

 

Whole ummah? Munafiqs, zakat deniers, Musailama and the other false prophets?

 


they were not anti-zakat....as history clearly states that they stopped giving zakat to the new leader after the prophet (a.s)...they were giving zakah during the time of the Prophet (a.s)...and so where is ijma now....y werent their views taken...


"Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry." (sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, p. 61.) and i want to again remind u:

[Quran 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

 

[Quran 53:4] It is naught but revealation that is revealed, True. The Quran and everything concerning belief and worship is by wahi. But not all sayings and actions of the Prophet were by wahi. Some of his sayings and actions were reproved by Allah in the Quran. See 66:1, 9:43, 80:1-11 and 8:67-68.

 

those were events which had hiqma in them....and it was done so that the people around would learn something....and surly the tone in the aayah i have shown u,clearly states about the fact that he does not have error in his words..

Verse 8:67-68 was a reproval for a decision the prophet took rejecting Umar al Faruq's opinion and this verse proved that the latter was right.

 


doesnt this clearly show that he was incapable of making decisions??
 





Originally posted by Saladin

Quran 48:18
Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance unto thee beneath the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down peace of reassurance on them, and hath rewarded them with a near victory.


To say that most of the people, who Allah attests as believers in this verse, later became unbelievers, is tantamount to disbelief. Allah would never have attested their belief if they had gone on to disbelieve and He surely would not have been pleased with the deeds of people who would become unbelievers.



well this has been debated upon and Allah (s.w.t) had kept a condition in it which the sahaab had to fullfill...even when he knew what was in their hearts...

this aayah surly does not mean the fact that they have been given a picnic holiday for thir actions...no matter wat they do...they will go to jannah..please read earlier posts...


Quran 24:23

Lo! as for those who traduce virtuous, believing women (who are) careless, cursed are they in the world and the Hereafter. Theirs will be an awful doom.


To continue slandering Aisha (ra) when Allah has attested her belief and chastity is also tantamount to disbelief.



it is a tohmat on shias that they blame Aysha of adultry (maazallah).....surly not..

infact one of the the reasons for ayesha's disbelief is her role in the battle of Jamal...against Imam ALi (a.s)....


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 12 September 2008 at 3:20pm
My answers are in Brown


Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by asda

This is a strawman and a willfull distortion of the topic. Your claim is not a "strong point" of Sunnis which you are trying to distort. thats a general fact...

 

 

What I find very telling about you is that are simply regurgitating (pasting) Shia diatribe, because in this entire reply from you, all you have done is "repeat" yourself, as if repeating various fallacies will some how make them true.

 

what do u want....from the start of the topic u want me to start talking against the belivs of the sunnis..and be rude...and lead this discussion to a sensless debate...well thats a general fact...which is accepted by shias and sunnis....well actually my 1st post is an intro to the topic....it does not refute any claims to the full...its just an expression of a view point...and thus if someone does not accept this...will debate...isnt it simple...thus i dont need to prove the sunni point...u have baseless claims...u knw..its common sense..

If it is a "general fact", then show that the general applies to particulars. You cannot assert your way through a discussion. If you will not back up your claims, then I will close this thread. It is that simple.

 

 

the sahaaba had made major mistakes...and i have already shown u by mentioning the Doughter of the Prophet (a.s)'s views on then...fidak is one of the points where the sahaaba do come under criticism...if u think otherwise...then i pity u....
 

 

Another strawman, for thinking that the companions were divine would be shirk. Hardly a "strong point" from Muslims. As far as being sent by Allah, I would love to know just how you have ascertained the mind of Allah and His relationship with mankind. I am guessing you do not have any real answers to my ojections and your points were just part of your hyporbole and over editorializing of the topic.
if the sahaaba dint exist...wud prophet muhammad (a.s)'s mission had failed??u knw the answer..

 

 

 

"u knw"..."cuz"..????? I am not one of your "texting buddies" in class.  Appearance goes a long way, and you might be taken much more serious if you used real words.

 

Its my wish...i am not giving an english exam/test....untill and unless u understand my point..its right and done from me....and for a fact...y cant we talk like gud friends....or u r one of those who r doing their best to create disunity among the ummah???


Now, about your reply, once again you did not respond to what I stated. In fact, your reply is completely irrelevant. You made a claim, and I am calling you on it. You now have comitted a fallacy of "irrelevancy".

 

 

 

1) Show that Muslims worship the sahaba?


in urdu we say, akalmand ko ishaaraa kafee hai....that was written not in the real sense...it had a hidden meaning..where the point is being made that sunnis think all the sahaaba are on "HAQ"...while the truth is in contrast..
2) Show how you are able to ascertain whether or not some was/or was not sent by God?

 

i hav already answered dat..

Thats quite a sweeping generalization. The topic of the companions is not as simplistic, nor is the view of Muslims so simplistic of the topic. A certain amount of adhab is used when approaching any of them, which does not mean that adhab for all is equivalent to worshiping for a few, many, most, or any.
well its not genralized???then we stand at the same point...cuz above i have been debating about the fact that all companions in "general" was not on haq...

 

 

Not only is your texting style usage of words annoying, but you are unable to put out a coherent response. Are you now asking me if your claim is true? Are you telling me it is true? If it is a "general fact", then it should not be difficult for you to establish it here and now beyond your rediculous assertions. You seem to know more about my faith then I do. Astounding!

 

i hav clearly shown the displeasure of ahlel bayt (a.s) with the 1st rashidite caliph...and that is enough to establish the fact about the sahaaba they were against...but still u hav denied...thats astonishing to me as well..

You are able to ascertain which companions were not of God and which were? Shi'ites never seem to amaze me. Please, show us the methodology you use to determine which companion was not of God and which was? As of now, you are trying to use unargued assertions to try and smear whoever you like. If you are unable to begin providing a criteria, a case, an example, that begins to show your claim of a "general fact", then this thread is closed.

 

what do u mean by companions "of god"

just because the discussion is on...that does not mean i have not proven anything...i hav already raised some question..which hav not been answered....and u threaten me to close the thread....well well...
 


 

Adhab and piety are not the same things. Instead of making claims which such gaping generalizations, why not clarify your stance.
wat clarification do u need...plz clarify...

 

 

The same clarification I have been asking for from the beginning that you are now avoiding, in part because you are limited to copying and pasting Shia polemics, but you are unable to get into the "nitty gritty" of the discussion. Your attempt to play obtuse is entertaining.

 

i hav clarified my stance..from the very 1st post...we cant say that all the ppl with the prophet (a.s) were truthful companions....and surly some were...who were with the truth and had to bear the difficulties due to their staunch faith...
 

And you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example. You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".[/QIAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example. You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established".UPTAnd you are displaying niggardly behavior toward reason. Please clarify particulars such as a case example. You are asking a "complex" question since the assumption buried in your question as not been "established"
well look at the next aayah..

 

 

 

I do not need you to give me a verse from the Quran along with your official SHi'ite exegesis of the passage. You are full of assertions, what we need is for you to establish your first, basic claims.

 

feel free to prove ure point!!!!
 

 

Another complex question (a fallacy), please establish that every person that came in contact with the prophet is a saint, from the position of Muslims. The rest of your question is perplexing. Please clarify. not every person...but as u say...all the sahaaba has the "as-sakinah"...


 

 

 

About your claim, please establish this belief we have. Clarify (not a quote from your websites or another assertion).

 

See post number 3 of this thread from a sunni bro....this was his claim..
 


 

 

how are you able to read God's mind to know who He likes or does not like?
now u r making it complex...well the quran is the best way know Allah (s.w.t)...tho he is above our understanding...but we can upto a certain level.

 

It is not a complex question. There are no unargued claims buried in the premise of the question. It is not "complex". It is a a valid question pertaining to your claims.

 

i think this part of the discussion is over..as it has been answered
 

This begs the question: So what? How does this prove your sect's basic claims? I will answer for you: It does not without some manipulation and supposition.
the aayah is just an example of the point made above it...and u have taken it seperately..

 

 

What point was that? You have made unargued assertions, and now you want to use a verse from the Quran and then handwave your interpretation? Willful distortions do not count as valid, or even reasonable claims.
   


if u disagree...please feel free to prove ure claims...












Originally posted by Andalus


Originally posted by asda


Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325: Narrated 'Aisha: (mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html are these the best of believers??? or....a part of the believers were staunch in their aqeedah????



Keep in mind that this thread has not stayed on topic. You have used this as an opportunity to dump Shia polemics. It is unreasonable to expect Muslims to jump and reply to every red herring you throw out. It no longer becomes a discussion, and it is simply you launching pasted claim from a shia polemical source. I am very close to closing this thread. If you want to have a seperate discussion about Fatima, or who the leaders are supposed to be, then open seperate threads. I will respond briefly to this one incident you have pasted.


well the topic as u knw is sahaaba...and we r looking at the topic from their varios acts...u knw as well that the sahaaba(as u claim) do come under the microscope for their role in fidak....and due to this it has a very big relevance to the topic...

infact minuteman did start discussing "khilafa and imamat" on this thread...and i did discuss with him on going on another thread to discuss that...which he ignored in his reply....so u better threaten him of closing down the thread...and not me....cuz i have shown keenness to discuss the acts of the sahaaba in this topic...




Before I begin, I suspect that the website you are going to has an author who is in great need of a basic course in critical thinking. And this will become evident as we read on.


ya i do CnP the hadeeth and Quranic Aayah...but that does not mean my post on whole is CnP....infact i do that from sunni sites as well...to avoid mistakes...

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325: Narrated 'Aisha: (mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.




1) Your claim makes the assertion (unproven) that she asked for the property BECAUSE it was ever given to her. 2) This is a Shia distortion, as there are no books authored by the Ahl Assunat who have stated that the property did indeed belong to her, or was given to her.

3) There are no Islamic books that have established that the property was ever given to her, or that she asked for it because it was given to her.


she asked fidak as her share of inheiritence.....and something she was sure of the fact that it was her right!!!!! and that is enough to deduce the fact that the decision of the caliph was incorrect...just keeping in mind what the Prophet (a.s) had said about her high status....well it is odd that u have given soooo much importance even a small hint of praise of sahaaba....but u keep aside the facts which has clearly been stated by the Prophet (a.s)


In fact, there are strong ahadith that establish the order concerning the prophet's statement about the relationship between a prophet, his inheritance, and his family. But this does not concern you, as Shi'ites only pick out the hadith that they can use and ignore everything else.



bismillah...go ahead....whos stopping u from disclosing knowledge..


in the hadith u hav quoted...even if i accept them as sahih...the Prophet (a.s) clearly mentions all of these merits for the companions...and not for those who went astray...who were the tru companions wen the prophet (a.s) was alive or after he died.... wsalaam



What methodology do you use to accept or reject our hadith?


You see, it matters not what hadith we give you, since you are under no obligation to believe them. Your only method so far is that the hadith must agree with the absurd supposition of your sect. Such a methodology, my friend, is completely weak and unfounded and denies credebility to your claims.


i hav just given that sentence with a big "IF"....."if" u dint read that...its the way to discuss...infact i hav already given reasons to reject that hadith....infact if i start giving out hadith from the same books the br has reffered to...u will reject them as well..just because it does not fit ure faith...or u will give some logical reason...or if the hadith is totally out of context then u may use quran as well..

infact i would invite u to debate me not to prove anything...but to share knowledge...and if for example, i dont hav an answer to a question i will go to a scholar and ask him the same thing hoping to find a logical answer...and if it happens with u...i advice u to do the same....but i hav noticed that my questions hav not been replied and ignored to the most...well i hav not adressed them over and over again hoping that the person on the other end is doing some research on it...but the way i see the posts..thats not the fact....

i would also like everybody on this forum to treat each other with respect...see, no one will leave ones aqeedah by chatting on the internet...but the positive about such forums is that we all can mingle and discuss and learn from each other...and research on the things we dont knw....the best thing about these forums is that we can atleast try to clarify our aqeedah to the other...i am pointing out about the varios myths ppl have about the shia...which are surly untrue....one of them have been discussed (recently about Quran and Imam Ali (a.s))...insallah more facts will be cleared in future...


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 14 September 2008 at 12:44am
 
 There is a short question to asda. Is Hazrat Hussain a martyr (Shaheed)? He was killed ruthlessly in Karbala. Please tell. Thanks.


-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 14 September 2008 at 2:00am
 
see, no one will leave ones aqeedah by chatting on the internet...
 
asda, if Allah wills, you may get your aqeedah changed. We pray for it.
 
Here's a very intresting thing. You know, Ali RA , out of love and respect for his three brethen caliphs , named three of his sons after them.  He also gave his eldest daughter Umm Kulthoom in marriage to `Umar Ibn   khatab. In addition, we se that `Abdullah bin la'hr bin Abi Taalib ,' Ali's nephew) named one of his sons Abu Bakr, and the other one Mu'aawiyah. Mu'aawiyah bin `Abdullah named his son after Yazeed bin Mu'aawiyah bin Abu Sufyaan, who was considered to be of good repute, according to the testimony of Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiyyah bin `Ali bin Abu Taalib.
 
Is it not intresting !!!!!
 
I may not answer all your questions. Frankly speaking, i did not read your posts with much concentration. Can you kindly, post one question in each post. I shall try my best to answer it {until this thread gets closed Smile}
 
I did not want to answer you, as i wished to ignore. But again you may misconcept that we did not answer you , as we did not have answers with us. 
 
 


-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 14 September 2008 at 4:42am
asda, if Allah wills, you may get your aqeedah changed. We pray for it.

if thats the case.....inshallah u might accept the path of Ahlel Bayt(a.s) for they know the Prophet (a.s) more then the others..


how can keeping very common names among the people be a sign of love for a sepecific person?? ure daleel astonishes me...

He also gave his eldest daughter Umm Kulthoom in marriage to `Umar Ibn   khatab..


the event never took place bro...

Is it not intresting !!!!!

nope!!

while u have raised ure case by small events...
I invite u to the school of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) and fight with Imam Ali (a.s) in the Battle of Siffin and the battle of Jamal....
I invite u to stand beside the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) on their claims of fidak.
i Invite u to be with the ones who wanted the prophet (a.s) to write his will when he wanted pen and paper..
(thats just the begining)
i invite u to stay away from those who had hurt Fatima (a.s), the beloved doughter of the prophet (a.s)..
i invite u to stay away from those who did not let Prophet Muhammad (a.s) write his will...
i invite u to stay away from those who went against the orders of the Prophet Muhammad (a.s) and brought back Marwan bin Hakam's family back when the Prophet (a.s) had exiled them.....
i invite u stay away from the killers of Ammar bin Yaasir
i invite u to stay Away from the killers of Imam Hussain (a.s)..
(and thats just a begining as well i can go on and on)

inshallah...if u do research on the topics being discussed, inshallah u will know that The school of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) is the only right path....


I may not answer all your questions. Frankly speaking, i did not read your posts with much concentration. Can you kindly, post one question in each post. I shall try my best to answer it {until this thread gets closed }

will u stop threatning me of closing this thread...i hav already told u that its not me going out of the topic....u kwn...i dint write a very looooong reply...but still u dint read it...well well....

I did not want to answer you, as i wished to ignore. But again you may misconcept that we did not answer you , as we did not have answers with us.


y dont u understand that these debates are way much above than winning and loosing...u r still scratching ure head on that...i pity u bro....



ok as u say...lets go one by one..now ure one Question:

y dint h.Fatima (a.s) know that she had no inheiritence??? infact it is not important for Abu Bakr to know about the fact that Prophets (a.s) dint leave any inheiritence...are u trying to tell me that the Prophet (a.s) dint do his job well??


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 14 September 2008 at 1:30pm
There is a short question to asda. Is Hazrat Hussain a martyr (Shaheed)? He was killed ruthlessly in Karbala. Please tell. Thanks.


y do u need an answer to a very basic question....who can deny the reality???


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 September 2008 at 11:02am
 
  You should have replied properly in Yes or No please. No need to counter question. I needed direct answer.
 
 Now please tell me whether hazart Ali (who was involved in wars with Hazrat Mua'awiyah) and was killed in Kufa. Was he Shaheed or not?
 
Thank you.


-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 15 September 2008 at 12:40pm
actually my posts really take time to get approved..even if they r a one liner....

y r u waistting our time...u knw my answer...
Maula Ali (a.s) was a shaheed..
Maula Hassain (a.s) was syed e Shuhada..

what do u want to prove here???
and wat has ure question to do with the topic going on??...which is the sahaaba..


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 September 2008 at 4:42pm
 
 Maula Ali (a.s) was a shaheed..
 Maula Hassain (a.s) was syed e Shuhada.
 
 Yes, thank you very much.
 
 Now please tell me about Imam Uthman, the third Caliph.
 Was he a Shaheed or Not? He was killed in the Capital.


-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 16 September 2008 at 5:37am
on a lighter note:i never knew getting killed was the criteria of a shaheed...(",)

he and umar was not a shaheed since they dint die on eemaan...

lets see what has this to do with the topic...


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 September 2008 at 11:52pm
 
 

You have agreed that Hussain and Ali were Shaheed. But hazrat Uthman was not a Shaheed. Very bad. You are not a momin. You have bad ideology, bad agenda of hatred etc. You can never have the truth and there is now no need to discuss anything with you because you have come out as an open enemy of the First and second and third Imam of the ummah whom Ali gave his allegiance and even served faithfully under them.

I do not want to spoil your show but it is sure that the Shias have many illegal, illogical beliefs against the true principles of Islam. They think that the prophet was an ignorant person and he did not know that his close friends (his dear ones) were hypocrites. According to your theory, the prophet did not produce any good man except hazrat Ali. What a shameful idea.  (But that is beside the point here. It is not for you.)

That is not the only one bad idea but there is a very long list of such bad beliefs. It is such beliefs that ended the Khilafat. hazart Ali and his children were safe and living happily during the time of the Khalifas. But after the death of Hazrat Uthman, all the troubles for the family of Hazrat Ali started. When Hazrat Ali had no complaints against Hazrat Umar then what right have the shias to invent new complaints? Can you not see that you are playing in the hands of the enemies of Islam if you make difference between Abubakr, Umar Uthman and Ali?

Now you have special meanings for the Shaheed too. You do not see that Hazrat Uthman was cruelly killed in the capital by some enemies. Were they the followers of Hazrat Ali who killed Hazrat Uthman? If not then they must be the enemies of Ali who killed Uthman. But you say that Uthman is not Shaheed. I could also say that Hazrat Ali was killed in a battle. He was fighting hazrat Mua'wiyah so he was killed in a battle and he was not a Shaheed. Also Hussian knew where he was going. He was committing suicide. he could not be a Shaheed too because of his politics.

 

Such foolish things do not lead any one to good relations.

Whatever I have written above may not be your beliefs. So please forgive me if I have attributed anything wrong to you. But saying that Hazrat Uthman was not a Shaheed was wrong. In that way nobody could be a Shaheed. I hope you will think over  few things and let us know your good ideas.
 
mm


-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:29am
Originally posted by asda

asda, if Allah wills, you may get your aqeedah changed. We pray for it.
if thats the case.....inshallah u might accept the path of Ahlel Bayt(a.s) for they know the Prophet (a.s) more then the others..


how can keeping very common names among the people be a sign of love for a sepecific person?? ure daleel astonishes me...
 
Well you said you believe in facts and you deny it !!!! It astonishes  me too that u did not understand this simple ---- Will you give your children in marriage in a family wherein you have differences or sort of enemity ?

He also gave his eldest daughter Umm Kulthoom in marriage to `Umar Ibn   khatab..


the event never took place bro...
 
Go thru the books of history. You shall know this FACT

Is it not intresting !!!!!

nope!!

while u have raised ure case by small events...
I invite u to the school of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) and fight with Imam Ali (a.s) in the Battle of Siffin and the battle of Jamal....
I invite u to stand beside the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) on their claims of fidak.
i Invite u to be with the ones who wanted the prophet (a.s) to write his will when he wanted pen and paper..
(thats just the begining)
i invite u to stay away from those who had hurt Fatima (a.s), the beloved doughter of the prophet (a.s)..
i invite u to stay away from those who did not let Prophet Muhammad (a.s) write his will...
i invite u to stay away from those who went against the orders of the Prophet Muhammad (a.s) and brought back Marwan bin Hakam's family back when the Prophet (a.s) had exiled them.....
i invite u stay away from the killers of Ammar bin Yaasir
i invite u to stay Away from the killers of Imam Hussain (a.s)..
(and thats just a begining as well i can go on and on)
I invite you to practically implement the hadith of not slandering the companions of Prophets or call them apostates { Nauzbillah} !!!!.I invite you the path of truth !

inshallah...if u do research on the topics being discussed, inshallah u will know that The school of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) is the only right path....
 
Well, now read the hadiths am going to paste in my next post, its from your - own sources


I may not answer all your questions. Frankly speaking, i did not read your posts with much concentration. Can you kindly, post one question in each post. I shall try my best to answer it {until this thread gets closed }

will u stop threatning me of closing this thread...i hav already told u that its not me going out of the topic....u kwn...i dint write a very looooong reply...but still u dint read it...well well....
 
Well, its again your problem if you mis-interpret me. This thread can be closed, even if  me or any other member does n't stick to the topic. Moderators here are fair. They can lay there stick over me too. Anyways, the final thing is this thread may get closed even if i don't stick to the topic. 
 
Your topic  does n't addresses the subject exactly, you are discussing. There are many other subjects cropping up. If i start up a topic "Islam", it shall never get it closed. Anyways, -----
 


id not want to answer you, as i wished to ignore. But again you may misconcept that we did not answer you , as we did not have answers with us.


y dont u understand that these debates are way much above than winning and loosing...u r still scratching ure head on that...i pity u bro....
 
Who said you that its about winning or loosing. Did you not read, i said, i shall discuss untill it gets closed. Not until u or me wins. ---- i pity u  tooo.  




...lets go one by one..now ure one Question:

y dint h.Fatima (a.s) know that she had no inheiritence??? infact it is not important for Abu Bakr to know about the fact that Prophets (a.s) dint leave any inheiritence...are u trying to tell me that the Prophet (a.s) dint do his job well??[/QUOTE]
 
Shall answer it insha-Allah, in my next  posts now.
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:32am

To meet a death of martyr is the moment of happiness. Why do you all weep and cut yourselves. Don't even spare little kids.

You are people - so called - on a right path na !!! Becharay

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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:43am
Now coming to the hadith u had been repeating
 
Before going into it, let me help you learn a small but important point. A hadith can be well understood, infact can know it in real when, you go thru its context. Welll, here is a hadith from your own source  of ahle byth.
 
“Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry.”
 
Well, this is the hadith na, which you quoted. Now, read its explanation. Let's read it in its context
 
This incident is narrated by the esteemed founding father of Shia theology, Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummi, better known as Al-Sadooq. In his book, Al-Sadooq relayed the following narration on the authority of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq. This narration is also available on Al-Shia.com:
 
Translation: It is narrated on the authority of Abu Abdullah Jafar Al-Sadiq: A miserable of the miserables came to Fatima, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and said to her: “Did you not know that Ali proposed to marry (Khataba) the daughter of Abu Jahl?” She said: “Is it true what you say? He said three times: “What I say is true.” Jealousy entered into her (heart) to an extent she could not control, for Allah has ordained that women be jealous and that men perform Jihad, and He has made the reward of the patient (woman) similar to that of the Murabit and Muhajir in the way of Allah.
 
He said: And Fatima’s anguish became severe and she remained thinking about it until night time…she moved to her father’s residence. Ali came to his residence and did not see Fatima and his anguish increased and became great on him, even though he did not know what happened, and he was ashamed to call her from her father’s house so he went to the Masjid and prayed as much as Allah willed, and he collected some of the sand in the Masjid and laid on it.
 
When the Prophet saw how sad and anguished Fatima was, he poured water over himself and wore his clothes and entered the Masjid. He kept praying, making Rukoo and Sujood, and after every time he completed two Raka he made Du’a that Allah remove what Fatima had of sadness and anguish because he left her turning over and breathing heavily. When the Prophet saw that she could not sleep and could not rest he said: “O daughter, rise!” So she rose and the Prophet carried Al-Hassan and she carried Al-Hussain and took hold of Umm Kulthoom’s hand until they reached Ali (AS) while he was sleeping.
 
The Prophet put his foot on Ali, pinched him, and said: “Rise Abu Turab! You have disturbed many a resting person. Call for me Abu Bakr from his house and Umar from his Majlis and Talha.” So Ali went and got them from their houses and they gathered around the Messenger of Allah.
 
The Messenger of Allah then said: “O Ali! Do you not know that Fatima is a piece of me and I am from her. Whoever disturbs her, disturbs me and whoever disturbs me has disturbed Allah, and whoever disturbs her after my death then as if he has disturbed her in my lifetime and whoever disturbed her in my lifetime then as if he has disturbed her after my death.”
 
(source: Ibn Babveh Al Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, pp.185-186, Al-Najaf Print; also narrated in Majlisi “Bihar” 43/201-202)
 
This story is not only narrated by the Shia founding father Al-Qummi, but it is also narrated by Al-Majlisi in his book Jala Al-Eoyon. There are not many scholars of the Shia considered more authoratative than Al-Qummi and Al-Majlisi, and both narrate this story.
 
It was actually Ali  who had angered Fatima , and consequently, the Prophet  chastised him by saying that whoever angers Fatima  angers him. According to the Shia narration above, the Prophet  even “put his foot on Ali” and “pinched him.” Not only this, but the Prophet  rounded up some of the Sahabah in order to publically chastise Ali  on the matter. Hence, if the Shia would like to condemn Abu Bakr  for angering Fatima , then what about this incident in which Ali  does so? In fact, the very statement that the silly Shia use against us is in fact the same statement that was used by the Prophet  as a chastisement of Ali !
 
And this was not the only time that Ali angered Fatima . According to Shia sources, we see several other instances. On one occassion, she was angry with Ali  because she saw his head in the lap of a slave girl that was given to him as a gift. She even left him for awhile and went to her father’s house, which is something that females do when they are upset with their husbands or they are facing marital problems. This narration is available on the YaZahra.com, a reputable Shia website:
 
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:54am

Translation: Al-Qummi and Al-Majlisi narrated on the authority of Abu Thar: I migrated with Jafar ibn Abi Talib to Abyssynia. A slave girl worth 4,000 dirhams was given to Jafar as a gift. When we came to Medinah he gave it to Ali as a gift that she may serve him. Ali kept her in Fatima’s house. One day Fatima entered and saw that his head was in the girl’s lap. She said: “O Abu Al-Hasan! Have you done it!?” He said: “O daughter of Muhammad! I have done nothing, so what is it that you want?” She said: “Do you allow me to go to my father’s house?” He said: “I will allow you.” So she wore her Jilbab and went to the Prophet.

(source: Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, p.163; it is also narrated in Bihar Al-Anwar, pp.43-44, Chapter on “How her life with Ali was”)

Yasoob.com is another well-known Shia website, and it too has these narrations in which Fatima is angered by Ali.

The Shia say that Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) was angry at Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) in the incident of Fadak, but what about their own narrations that say that she was also angry at Ali (رضّى الله عنه) at the same time? We read the following, as narrated by Al-Majlisi’s Haqq-ul-Yaqeen as well as in Al-Tusi’s Amali:
 
“When Fatima asked for Fadak from Abu Bakr and he refused to give it to her, she returned full of anger that could not be described and she was sick; and she was angry with Ali because he refused to help her.” (Al-Majlisi’s Haqq-ul-Yaqeen, pp.203-204; also recorded in Al-Tusi’s Amali, p.295)
 
Thus, based on the simple fact that Ali (رضّى الله عنه) made Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) angry on more than one occassion, we arrive at the following conclusions:
1) The Prophet’s saying “whoever disturbs her, disturbs me” is addressed to Ali (رضّى الله عنه) but the Shia use it only for Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه); if this statement involved punishment from Allah then it would certainly befall Ali (رضّى الله عنه) before Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه).
 
 
2) There are other incidents (narrated by the well-reknowned Al-Majlisi, Al-Tusi, Al-Erbali, and others) that occurred in which Ali (رضّى الله عنه) angered Fatima (رضّى الله عنها). What is the Shia response to this anger? Whatever response they use to defend Ali (رضّى الله عنه), then we could use the same response to defend Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه).
 
No obedience In transgression

When the Shia try to condemn Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) by bringing up the Prophet’s words (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) about making Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) angry, we ask these mindless Shia to think of similar Hadith and Quranic exhortations about not making one’s parents angry. The Prophet has said that if a person makes his parents angry, then this will anger Allah. We are told that if we disobey or anger our parents, we disobey and anger Allah. However, what if a parent asks his daughter not to wear the Hijab, and what if he gets angry if she does wear it? Would it then be sinful for the girl to continue wearing Hijab? Of course not! The Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said:
 
“There is no obedience in transgression. Verily, obedience is in good deeds [only].” (Sahih Bukhari, Muslim)
 
We cannot obey another human being above Allah and His Messenger. So how could Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) place the words of Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) above that of the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) who clearly said that Prophets do not leave behind inheritance?
 
Fatima’s anger (رضّى الله عنها) in context

It should be noted that Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) is not God. Her anger does not decide who will go to Paradise and who will not. Not even the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) is God; nor will his anger decide who will go to Paradise and who will not. If the Shia ask us proof of this claim, then we give them the example of Washu who killed the Prophet’s uncle, Hamza (رضّى الله عنه). Washu would later convert to Islam and repent for his crimes; even still, the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) could not help but feel anger when he saw the face of the man who killed his uncle. However, this was only the personal feeling of the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم). It does not mean that Washu would be condemned to Hell-Fire for crimes that he committed prior to his conversion to Islam.
 
In any case, Fatima’s anger (رضّى الله عنها) is not the factor which decides who goes to Paradise and who burns in Hell-Fire. If Fatima’s anger (رضّى الله عنها) is based on something which is wrong from a Shariah standpoint [i.e. Fadak], then how can this be the reason for Abu Bakr’s condemnation (رضّى الله عنه)? Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) was angry at Ali (رضّى الله عنه) on at least one occassion: Ali (رضّى الله عنه) greatly upset Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) on many occassions, and even there were incidents in which she was so angry that she left Ali’s house (رضّى الله عنه) and went to stay with her father. Do we condemn Ali (رضّى الله عنه) as a Kaffir now?
 
The truth of the matter is that people–even loved ones–get in arguments. We have yet to see a husband who does not get in arguments with his wife. Siblings fight all the time, and parents get angry at their children. We even have the example of Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) who lost patience with Khidr (عليه السلام), and yet we find that these are amongst the best of people as mentioned in the Quran (and “infallible” according to the Shia). Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) and Umar (رضّى الله عنه) got in arguments, and yet we know that they were best of friends. Likewise, we believe that Ali (رضّى الله عنه) got in arguments with Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) and Umar (رضّى الله عنه). And the Ahlus Sunnah has no issue with this, so why do the Shia suddenly think we would cower at the site of anyone getting in one argument with Fatima (رضّى الله عنها)?
 
The Shia exploit the Hadith about whoever makes Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) angry makes the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) angry. The Shia believe that the same is true of Ali (رضّى الله عنه), that whoever makes him angry also makes the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) angry. Likewise, the Ahlus Sunnah believes that whoever upsets the Sahabah makes the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) angry. Thus, the Hadith about angering Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) must be taken into the appropriate context and cannot be taken in such simplistic and stark terms.
 
Furthermore, Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) was the Caliph of the Ummah; this is the highest rank possible, and all the subjects must obey him. As such, he deserved the respect and obedience of his subjects, of which includes Fatima (رضّى الله عنها). As such, if the Shia want to argue that Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) should have been careful about angering Fatima (رضّى الله عنها), an unbiased observer could easily argue that it was Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) who should have been careful of angering the Caliph of the Muslims who by the Shariah was at a rank higher in status than anyone else. If the Shia want to argue that Fatima’s position (رضّى الله عنها) is higher due to the fact that she is leader of the women of Paradise, then we can also say that Aisha’s position (رضّى الله عنها) is higher than that of Ali’s (رضّى الله عنه) based on the fact that she is “Mother of the Believers” as mentioned in the Quran.
Of course, the Ahlus Sunnah does not judge the Companions and relatives of the Prophet (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم), unlike the Shia slanderers. Hence, we do not criticize Fatima (رضّى الله عنها); we think she made a sincere mistake, and nothing more. The Shia propagandists will now resort to rhetoric and emotional arguments whereby they will ask if it is possible that the daughter of the Prophet–who was raised by him–could possibly not know a Hadith or make such a grievous mistake. By this same logic, one could defend all of the actions of Aisha (رضّى الله عنها), for she was the wife of the Prophet who was married to him at the tender age of six. So if the Shia ask why we say Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) made a mistake, we ask the Shia why they say Aisha (رضّى الله عنها) made mistakes (and even worse according to the Shia).
 
The reality is that any human being–even the greatest of Muslims–is capable of making mistakes. We reject the concept of infallibility; it is a form of exaggeration and an extension of Shirk, whereby the quality of Allah (i.e. perfection) is given to humans. Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) did not know of the Prophet’s Hadith which forbade inheritance from him. Thus, her demand for Fadak was not based out of sin, but rather out of a sincere mistake; mistakes are made by everyone, even the most pious individuals.
Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) reconciled with Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه)

In any case, it was only initially that Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) was angry at Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه). The Shia endeavour to capitalize on her feelings to convey the idea that because she was wronged, she had directed that Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) should not attend her Janaazah and that she remained angry with him until her demise. We do not agree with this narrative, and we believe that Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) eventually became pleased with Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه).
 
Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) was not motivated by ill-feeling or malice for Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) in the dispute regarding inheritance. In fact, placating her, Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) frequently said:
 
“By Allah! Oh daughter of Rasool-Allah! Kindness to the relatives of Rasool-Allah is more beloved to me than my kindness with my own relatives.”
 
According to both Sunni and Shia narrations, Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه) was greatly saddened by Fatima’s displeasure (رضّى الله عنها). He went to great lengths to please her while remaining firm on the Shariah. He went to her home, stood at her door in the midday sun and asked Ali (رضّى الله عنه) to be his intercessor in his sincere attempt to placate and please Fatima (رضّى الله عنها). Ultimately, she became pleased with him and accepted his decision. These narrations appear in Madaarijun Nubuwwah, Kitaabul Wafaa, Baihaqi and in the commentaries of Mishkaat.
 
Kitaabul Muwaafiqah narrates that Anaani said:
“Abu Bakr came to the door of Fatima in the midday sun and said: ‘I shall not leave from here as long as the daughter of Rasool-Allah remains displeased with me. Ali came to Fatima and giving her an oath urged her to become pleased. Then she became pleased (with Abu Bakr).”
Shia records also confirm that Fatima (رضّى الله عنها) became pleased with Abu Bakr (رضّى الله عنه).
 
 The Shia author of Hujjaajus Saalikeen states:
“Verily, when Abu Bakr saw that Fatima was annoyed with him, shunned him and did not speak to him after this on the issue of Fadak, he was much aggrieved on account of this. He resolved to please her. He went to her and said: ‘Oh daughter of Rasool-Allah! You have spoken the truth in what you have claimed, but I saw Rasool-Allah distributing it (i.e. the income of Fadak). He would give it to the Fuqaraa, Masaakeen and wayfarers after he gave your expenses and expenses of the workers.’ She then said: ‘Do with it as my father, Rasool-Allah had done.’ Abu Bakr said: ‘I take an oath by Allah for you! It is incumbent on me to do with it what your father used do with it.’ Fatima said: ‘ By Allah! You should most certainly do so.’ Abu Bakr said: ‘ By Allah! I shall most certainly do so.’ Fatima said: ‘O Allah! Be witness.’ Thus, she became pleased with this and she took a pledge from Abu Bakr. Abu Bakr would give them (Fatima and others of the Ahlel Bayt) expenses therefrom and distribute the balance to the Fuqaraa, Masaakeen and wayfarers.”
 
In the very reliable narration of Sunan Al-Bayhaqi, we read:
 
“When Fatima became ill, Abu Bakr came to her and asked for permission to enter. So Ali said, ‘O Fatima, this is Abu Bakr asking for permission to enter.’ She answerd, ‘Do you want me to give him permission?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ So she allowed him (to enter), and he came in seeking her pleasure, so he told her: ‘By Allah, I only left my home and property and my family seeking the pleasure of Allah and His Messenger and you, O Ahlel Bayt.’ So he talked to her until she was pleased with him.” (Sunan Al-Bayhaqi)
This Hadith is narrated by Bayhaqi in al Sunan al Kubra (6:300-301) and Dala’il al-Nubuwwa (7:273-281) who said: “It is narrated with a good (hasan) chain.” Muhibb al Din al-Tabari cited it in al Riyad Al Nadira (2:96-97 #534) and Dhahabi in the Siyar (Ibid). Ibn Kathir states it as Sahih in his Al Bidayah and Ibn Hajar in his Fath Al Bari.
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 12:57am
Hope mods will excuse me for pasting it. I just don't want to give the source am pasting from. But the refernces of the hadiths quoted from there own books are correct.
 
Any more questions - asda. I hope you balance yourselves properly. If you really wish to read the facts, read it in full.
 
Take care.
 
Regards
 
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 4:45am
LOLmy ignorance or ures..does caliph means successor....well if it does then who's successor was h.Adam when Allah (s.w.t) has said:
When Allah said to the angels Indeed I will establish a Calipha on this earth…’ [QURAN al-baqarah, 30>

wasnt the supposed calipha to be was H.Adam...and since hazrat Adam was the 1st man on earh....and if successor means caliph....then who's caliph was H.Adam???

Khalifa means successor or viceroy. Adam was the caliph of the earth not caliph of Allah.
 

they were not anti-zakat....as history clearly states that they stopped giving zakat to the new leader after the prophet (a.s)...they were giving zakah during the time of the Prophet (a.s)...and so where is ijma now....y werent their views taken...
 
That's a lame excuse, isnt it? Where does Allah or his messenger tell us to annul a principle of Islam if the caliph isnt acceptable. We dont have a caliph today. Is that a valid reason for us to avoid giving zakat?


"Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry." (sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, p. 61.) and i want to again remind u:

[Quran 53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.

[Quran 53:4] It is naught but revealation that is revealed, True. The Quran and everything concerning belief and worship is by wahi. But not all sayings and actions of the Prophet were by wahi. Some of his sayings and actions were reproved by Allah in the Quran. See 66:1, 9:43, 80:1-11 and 8:67-68.

those were events which had hiqma in them....and it was done so that the people around would learn something....and surly the tone in the aayah i have shown u,clearly states about the fact that he does not have error in his words..
 
It doesnt take divine inspiration to realise the Prophet's affection for his daughter. For the love of the Prophet, we love all that he loved. Fact is Abu Bakr could not obey uninspired saying by violating divine injunction:
 
"Prophets dont leave inheritance".
 
You wont accept hadith except when it suits your belief. Well then see the Quran.
 
59:7 "That which Allah giveth as spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and His messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, that it become not a commodity between the rich among you. And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal."
 
Whatever is for Allah and his messenger is for the state and state property is only inherited by the state. Whatever the Prophet took from it for his household needs, was as an allowance.
Abu Bakr was right about Fadak and Fathima's ijtihad was wrong on this matter. Ijtihad if unintentionally wrong, does not degrade the status of a believer. 


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 4:49am
Verse 8:67-68 was a reproval for a decision the prophet took rejecting Umar al Faruq's opinion and this verse proved that the latter was right.

doesnt this clearly show that he was incapable of making decisions??
 
Read it again. The latter (Umar) was right.


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 5:14am
Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem
Salaams..
I will go post by post...and luckily i have some of the books mentioned....all these discussions are somehow related to fidak...and inshallah i will look into them...but u have to give me time....because c&p a whole article is ez....but going for a reply will take time....btw..i knw where did u copy and past that from...dont worry...i will reply that...and u just have to give me time...


it is odd that none of my questions are answered at all....and u ignore them to the full....and pose questions to me....well i will inshallah do my best to understand them...

wsalaam.


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 5:24am
Quran 48:18
Allah was well pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance unto thee beneath the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, and He sent down peace of reassurance on them, and hath rewarded them with a near victory.


To say that most of the people, who Allah attests as believers in this verse, later became unbelievers, is tantamount to disbelief. Allah would never have attested their belief if they had gone on to disbelieve and He surely would not have been pleased with the deeds of people who would become unbelievers.



well this has been debated upon and Allah (s.w.t) had kept a condition in it which the sahaab had to fullfill...even when he knew what was in their hearts...

this aayah surly does not mean the fact that they have been given a picnic holiday for thir actions...no matter wat they do...they will go to jannah..please read earlier posts...
 
Basically, the muslims during the Prophet's time make Bay'at to confirm their faith in Islam. 48:10 is in reference to that, generally. But 48:18 is specifically about the sahabas who pledged at Hudaibiya and when Allah labels them as 'believers' and was pleased by them, believe it, if you believe in Allah's words. Conditions dont apply in this verse as its very specific. Arguing otherwise is only implying that Allah is not the All Knowing. Not believing in the words of Allah is 'unbelief'. 


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 5:48am
infact one of the reasons for ayesha's disbelief is her role in the battle of Jamal...against Imam ALi (a.s).... 
 
Anyone getting divine revealations to come to such conclusions??? Dont you believe the words of Allah when he attests Aisha's belief and declares her a 'mother of the believers'.
 
33:6 The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers.
 
Are you implying once again that Allah got it wrong? Just because Aisha got involved in the Jamal battle, does it make her a disbeliever??? 
Anyone believing in such devil inspired accusations as opposed to Allah's words are reeking with unbelief! 


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 5:57am
Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem

my replies will be seen in green...


Originally posted by minuteman

 
 

You have agreed that Hussain and Ali were Shaheed. But hazrat Uthman was not a Shaheed. Very bad. You are not a momin. You have bad ideology, bad agenda of hatred etc. You can never have the truth and there is now no need to discuss anything with you because you have come out as an open enemy of the First and second and third Imam of the ummah whom Ali gave his allegiance and even served faithfully under them.


Imam Ali (a.s) dint give alligence to them...infact if u see how uthman was elected, and what happend during he was elected u will understand that he did go against the decisions of the Prophet (a.s)....he brought back the family of marwan bin hakam(l.a) whose family was exiled by the prophet(a.s)...if going against Uthman's faith is bad ideology, then what do u say about Aisha, when she said:
When the situation became extremely grave, Uthman ordered Marwan Ibn al-Hakam and Abdurahman Ibn Attab Ibn Usayd to try to persuade Aisha to stop campaigning against him. They went to her while she was preparing to leave for pilgrimage, and they told her: "We pray that you stay in Medina, and that Allah may save this man (Uthman ) through you." Aisha said: "I have prepared my means of transportation and vowed to perform the pilgrimage. By God, I shall not honor your request... I wish he (Uthman ) was in one of my sacks so that I could carry him. I would then throw him into the sea."
Ansab al-Ashraf, Volume 6 pages 192-193


if therefore,someone like aysha can go against he second caliph, then what status has my words hav infront of u compared to the words of Aysha....i advice u to look bak deep into history...


I do not want to spoil your show but it is sure that the Shias have many illegal, illogical beliefs against the true principles of Islam. They think that the prophet was an ignorant person and he did not know that his close friends (his dear ones) were hypocrites. According to your theory, the prophet did not produce any good man except hazrat Ali. What a shameful idea.  (But that is beside the point here. It is not for you.)



Ya Allah(s.w.t)!!!! what do u know of shia beliefs...Prophet Muhammad (a.s) had done his job to the best...and i think best is a small word for his works....and if u think that we believe that Imam ALi (a.s) (and his family) was the only ppl with eemaan(after the prophet(a.s)), then u r WRONG!!!!
some of the tribes which were on eemaan were:
Banu Rabi'aa
Bani kamoona
Mazhaj
Shabaam

and many more...infact there were many...but were in minority...

well now if the people of H.z Musa (a.s) betrayed him, just when he left for 40 days, Will you accuse H.Musa (a.s) of not doing his work properly??or say that Allah(s.w.t) did not choose the right person??? (maazallah)...the answer is no....then if this is the case, what is the fault of Prophet Muhammad (a.s) that u accuse him just because that many people around him betrayed him...did u forget uhud???? when most of the people around him betrayed him.....now what will u say of the duties of the Prophet (a.s)???


That is not the only one bad idea but there is a very long list of such bad beliefs. It is such beliefs that ended the Khilafat. hazart Ali and his children were safe and living happily during the time of the Khalifas. But after the death of Hazrat Uthman, all the troubles for the family of Hazrat Ali started. When Hazrat Ali had no complaints against Hazrat Umar then what right have the shias to invent new complaints? Can you not see that you are playing in the hands of the enemies of Islam if you make difference between Abubakr, Umar Uthman and Ali?



Br. Dont u see their actions....even at the time of the Prophet (a.s)....i would seriosly advice u to read the history that surrounds the pact of Hudaybiyah in detail....Umar even had the guts to question the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (a.s).....How can one follow people who had such bad attitude with the Prophet??? If someone has such a weak eemaan, then will u follow his words???u have to decide ureself bro....

Now you have special meanings for the Shaheed too. You do not see that Hazrat Uthman was cruelly killed in the capital by some enemies. Were they the followers of Hazrat Ali who killed Hazrat Uthman? If not then they must be the enemies of Ali who killed Uthman. But you say that Uthman is not Shaheed. I could also say that Hazrat Ali was killed in a battle. He was fighting hazrat Mua'wiyah so he was killed in a battle and he was not a Shaheed. Also Hussian knew where he was going. He was committing suicide. he could not be a Shaheed too because of his politics.



Br. i would advice u to look DEEP into history....u have just divided the ummah into 2 groups, those who were with Maula Ali (a.s), and those who were not with Maula Ali (a.s)...and FYI there was a 3rd group...called the Khawaarij...who dint belive in any of the khilafat system....

Uthman's death is a mystery....while its another huge chapter in history...if u want to furthur discus this, then u r ready to open a new thread....

well some sunnis claim that shias killed Uthman.....and say someone called Abdullah ibn Saba had a hand in it.....which is totally wrong.....abdullah ibn saba dint exist.....and even if he did exist, he was surly not a shia of Ahlel Bayt (a.s), as he is not a respected person among the shias.....


 


Such foolish things do not lead any one to good relations.


Whatever I have written above may not be your beliefs. So please forgive me if I have attributed anything wrong to you. But saying that Hazrat Uthman was not a Shaheed was wrong. In that way nobody could be a Shaheed. I hope you will think over  few things and let us know your good ideas.


Alhamdulillah i hav clarified my beliefs in the above post....most of the shia beliefs u hav mentioned is wrong....and i hav done by best to correct them...and give sufficient proof if required....

if i have not replied/ignored any single question or line or anything is not answered properly, feel free to raise ure opinion....i am not a scholar...but i will do my best to answer u...inshallah...


mm
<FONT face=Arial size=2>


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 6:19am
Originally posted by seekshidayath

To meet a death of martyr is the moment of happiness. Why do you all weep and cut yourselves. Don't even spare little kids.



You are people - so called - on a right path na !!! Becharay


where is the answer to my ONLY QUESTION.......my only question is also unanswered..

while u have problems in our mourning style....well u knw that u have brought this up because u have no answer to my question...and thus now u r going off-topic....i will just give a simple reply of logic, and if u want to discuss this further, feel free to open a thread....

mourning is a protest against Yazeediyat as well..thus protesting has many forms...and one of the most common seen today is hunger strike.....u understand the logic between hunger strike, right??? surly u do....but isnt that harming oneself??? yes it is......

therefore our mourning, seeing it as a protest,we harm ourself (in limits)....
due to the success in it, the naasibis(anti-shia) do their best to bomb our holy sites on our mourning days.......as they do their best to stop it....but they shud know that they will surly fail...


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 11:54am
Plz w8 and dont write anything...as there is more to come...i have not done yet....


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 1:30pm
 
  asda, you are advising me to read the history. Do you think that I am unaware of the history of the Ummah? Surely not. But I will not go to abiased history which youhave been reading. I also know that most of the historians were Shias.
 
 Alo many of your Shias had the ample time to invent false Ahadith and put them in the books of the general Muslims, while remaining under cover. This is a well known fact.
 
 Every where a question is asked, you can reply in one line but you are calling to open another thread. Why? When the simple answer can be given in few words. You have justified your mourning in the open streets and Bazaars of the major cities to gather more recruits into Shia system. What for re you compalining. Is Yazeed here now? Do you think we are Yazeed? No. That mourning is just a show piece to gather more people to your clan.  It is totally illegal. Islam does not allow it.
 
 Then you jumped to Hazrat Musa and that his people discarded him. Do not apply that to our prophet. No one discarded our prophet s.a.w.s.
 
 Then you had the courage to malign Hazrat Umar during Hudaibia that he was angry. So were many other Sahabah. But Hazrat Umar did the Baya'ay Ridhwan under the tree. And Allah gave certificate of goodness to all who did the baya'at. But you seem to deny that too.
 
 Then you are in trouble about Uhud also. Did the prophet abuse any one for that. And you have no right to do so. But you people are making up false history. You have made up inumerable stories to malign the senior Companions of the prophet and to give uplift to the children of Ali. That is not justified. You cannot have it greased on both sides, i.e. downplaying one pious group and uplifting another doubtful group who had no part in the establishment of Islam, no money, no conversions, no fights or battles, only babies.
 
 Hazart Ali was much too young to do anything. He did not have anything even for his marriage. He could not give anything in the way of Allah. Let us not deal with these things. But since you are keeping the game of Yazeed alive, then there will be discussions about the weakness of the other side too. That only for your information. Otherwise you know that Sunnis do not hate or disrespect any of the ahle Bait Ali. r.a.
 
 Your saying that Hazart Ali did not give Bay'at to Hazrat Uthman is a balatant lie. Perhaps next time you will say that he did not give Bay'at to Abubakr and Umar too. You want to prove that Ali had no knowledge of religion or Quran? You know very well verse 24:55 which states that when Khilafat is established (And Allah has promised that He will establish it) then any one who will oppose it or differ with it, he will be a faasiq. So you want to prove that Hazrat Ali was a Faasiq? have a heart please.
 
 Already your beliefs are bordering upon Munafiqat. There are two types of enemies of Islam. 1. Munafiq who remain within the fold of Islam and try to cause maximum damage.   2. The Kaafir, who sit outside Islam and try to fight and oppose Islam.
 
 You belong to number one category, if you think seriously about it. I have informed you to be careful. Then it is upto you. Do as you like.  mm


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 3:40pm
well well...i am still not done yet man....i dont knw y do they take time to approve my one line....please read the post above u..(if it has been approved)

go back and read the line where u say"no one discarded our Prophet (a.s)"...i have already proved to u...even if they did...that does not mean that he dint do his work properly...

infact ure post have proved nothing.....u know u cant defend them....that is y u dont look deep into history...plz bro...stop the rigidity...and do some research...if u have already done....then please come up with gud answers...

Imam ALi (a.s) dint do bayah of Umar and Abu Bakr...
that can be seen during the selection of Uthman....i would again advise u not to boil up...and stay calm....and read history to open ure eyes....

ure hatred comes between acceptance....as u already know that u dont have any answer to a single question i have given.....if u r so right...then i challenge u to think with an open mind...and just not reject the facts just because something different is being taught to u all ure life......infact i have been brave enough to answer every single question....while u hav ignored them....inshallah a lot of lies will be exposed to u in my upcomming posts.....

btw..i hav called upon to open another threads so that we dont go off topic...

uhud was the time when one cud just imagine if the prophet (a.s) was in trouble wat would happen.. u also know that true friends are those who are with a person even during bad times.....



i have already told u...khilafat was established...but like H.Harun khilafat people betrayed him...

chalo....if i accept that khilafat was established by Allah (s.w.t) then the khilafat of Banu Umayyah and Banu Abbas did exist as well....and u surly know wat type of people became rulers....so if khilafat was established by Allah (s.w.t) is the worldly one (mazallah) as u say then what about the acts of the caliphs that followed followed Imam Hassan (a.s)...atleast as u say, khilafat to banu umayyah was transferred in peaceful way...so were banu umayyah calph of Allah (s.w.t) (maazalllah)???dont u see...this is an established khilafat??.....
and the banu Abbas took over....now y dont u say that Allah (s.w.t) made them win over banu umayyah...and its his khilafat???(maazallah)...as now thier khilafat was established..


Already your beliefs are bordering upon Munafiqat.


u know that wont make me angry on u....so dont test my patience...inshallah u have already seen it...May Allah (s.w.t) help u...


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 3:46pm
Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem

now i will look into the article...as i have already mentioned that i knw the source of this article...and that has helped me a lot in doing my research to collect a reasonable answer...inshallah the writer of this article will be exposed in his faulty quotes and inshallah i will show how he is misleading the ahlus sunnah....



Originally posted by seekshidayath

Now coming to the hadith u had been repeating
 

Before going into it, let me help you learn a small but important point. A hadith can be well understood, infact can know it in real when, you go thru its context. Welll, here is a hadith from your own source  of ahle byth.

 

“Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry.”

 

Well, this is the hadith na, which you quoted. Now, read its explanation. Let's read it in its context

 

This incident is narrated by the esteemed founding father of Shia theology, Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummi, better known as Al-Sadooq. In his book, Al-Sadooq relayed the following narration on the authority of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq. This narration is also available on Al-Shia.com:

 

Translation: It is narrated on the authority of Abu Abdullah Jafar Al-Sadiq: A miserable of the miserables came to Fatima, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and said to her: “Did you not know that Ali proposed to marry (Khataba) the daughter of Abu Jahl?” She said: “Is it true what you say? He said three times: “What I say is true.” Jealousy entered into her (heart) to an extent she could not control, for Allah has ordained that women be jealous and that men perform Jihad, and He has made the reward of the patient (woman) similar to that of the Murabit and Muhajir in the way of Allah.

 

He said: And Fatima’s anguish became severe and she remained thinking about it until night time…she moved to her father’s residence. Ali came to his residence and did not see Fatima and his anguish increased and became great on him, even though he did not know what happened, and he was ashamed to call her from her father’s house so he went to the Masjid and prayed as much as Allah willed, and he collected some of the sand in the Masjid and laid on it.

 

When the Prophet saw how sad and anguished Fatima was, he poured water over himself and wore his clothes and entered the Masjid. He kept praying, making Rukoo and Sujood, and after every time he completed two Raka he made Du’a that Allah remove what Fatima had of sadness and anguish because he left her turning over and breathing heavily. When the Prophet saw that she could not sleep and could not rest he said: “O daughter, rise!” So she rose and the Prophet carried Al-Hassan and she carried Al-Hussain and took hold of Umm Kulthoom’s hand until they reached Ali (AS) while he was sleeping.

 

The Prophet put his foot on Ali, pinched him, and said: “Rise Abu Turab! You have disturbed many a resting person. Call for me Abu Bakr from his house and Umar from his Majlis and Talha.” So Ali went and got them from their houses and they gathered around the Messenger of Allah.

 

The Messenger of Allah then said: “O Ali! Do you not know that Fatima is a piece of me and I am from her. Whoever disturbs her, disturbs me and whoever disturbs me has disturbed Allah, and whoever disturbs her after my death then as if he has disturbed her in my lifetime and whoever disturbed her in my lifetime then as if he has disturbed her after my death.”

 

(source: Ibn Babveh Al Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, pp.185-186, Al-Najaf Print; also narrated in Majlisi “Bihar” 43/201-202)


Well according to shia belief, this event never took place...for many reasons which will be discribed...
as u know, every hadith has to be tested from quran, ilme rijal and so on.....inshallah i will look into the flaws of the hadith and then i will look into the fact that even if i accept that hadith to be true, the event if analysed, does not fit ones common sence...may Allah (s.w.t) help me with my task...

the writer of the article is over smart...he thot only sunnis will read his article...and blindly accept his work.....
1st we will look into tho book Elal-Asharae' written by sheikh Saduq (r.a)


http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elalalsharae1ul0.jpg">


http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elalalsharae2ca2.jpg">


i think u know urdu...and i hope u can read the beautiful language....in the 1st image i have underlined the last narrators name....which is ABU HURAYRA and not Imam Jafar e Sadiq (a.s) as the writer claims....and secondly we dont take from abu hurayra, beacuse he is not considered to be a reliable person one reason is given here: http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abyhurayrank3.jpg..(i dint want to waste space or go off topic)

and now look at the second image...(its the next page)...i have surrounded the words by THE WRITER SHIEKH SADOOQ which says "Rivayat humaare nazdeek hargiz motabar aur Mustanid nahee hai"..this in sort means that he say.."the narration is not authentic and fabricated)...

well i am sure every published book has this note on this hadith...and the writer of the article either ignored that, thinking shias will blindly believe him or it was his mischiev which has been exposed...

infact if u read all the arabic texts...given in the article...no where it says its been narrated by Imam Jafar e Sadiq (a.s)....

now lets see the narration in Bihar Ul Anwar By allamah majlisi....look at the chain of narration (from the site ya-zahra.net)...[أبي ، عن سعد ، عن الحسن بن عرفة ، عن وكيع ، عن محمد بن إسرائيل ، عن أبي صالح ، عن أبي ذر رحمة الله >...as u can see there are 7 narrators till Abu Zarr...and Allamah majlisi was born in the Hijri year of 1024....well this hadith can only accepted if it is possible for all the narrators to live atleast around 125 years above or a bit less....since there is around 1014 year gap between Allamah Majlisi and Prophet Muhammad (a.s)!!!!!

since the al-shia link given there does not work..i cud not work on it...


 

This story is not only narrated by the Shia founding father Al-Qummi, but it is also narrated by Al-Majlisi in his book Jala Al-Eoyon. There are not many scholars of the Shia considered more authoratative than Al-Qummi and Al-Majlisi, and both narrate this story.

 

since the auther has given no quotations from Jala Al-Eoyon....his claims are worthless....

It was actually Ali  who had angered Fatima , and consequently, the Prophet  chastised him by saying that whoever angers Fatima  angers him. According to the Shia narration above, the Prophet  even “put his foot on Ali” and “pinched him.” Not only this, but the Prophet  rounded up some of the Sahabah in order to publically chastise Ali  on the matter. Hence, if the Shia would like to condemn Abu Bakr  for angering Fatima , then what about this incident in which Ali  does so? In fact, the very statement that the silly Shia use against us is in fact the same statement that was used by the Prophet  as a chastisement of Ali !

 

And this was not the only time that Ali angered Fatima . According to Shia sources, we see several other instances. On one occassion, she was angry with Ali  because she saw his head in the lap of a slave girl that was given to him as a gift. She even left him for awhile and went to her father’s house, which is something that females do when they are upset with their husbands or they are facing marital problems. This narration is available on the YaZahra.com, a reputable Shia website:


just because a website says it, and that website is just giving out a book ..we shud believe it???? inshallah in the next part of the reply i will see that even if i accept the narration... what are the flaws in it....
 


since i al still working on this...please dont post anything to divert attention....


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 4:13pm
inshallah lets see and analyse the incident...
one of the translations of the books mentioned is:

Translation: Al-Qummi and Al-Majlisi narrated on the authority of Abu Thar: I migrated with Jafar ibn Abi Talib to Abyssynia. A slave girl worth 4,000 dirhams was given to Jafar as a gift. When we came to Medinah he gave it to Ali as a gift that she may serve him. Ali kept her in Fatima’s house. One day Fatima entered and saw that his head was in the girl’s lap. She said: “O Abu Al-Hasan! Have you done it!?” He said: “O daughter of Muhammad! I have done nothing, so what is it that you want?” She said: “Do you allow me to go to my father’s house?” He said: “I will allow you.” So she wore her Jilbab and went to the Prophet.
(source: Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, p.163; it is also narrated in Bihar Al-Anwar, pp.43-44, Chapter on “How her life with Ali was”)

The incident quotes Abu Dharr as saying that he and Jafar bin Abi Talib came to Madina together. Jafar came to Madina following the conquest of Khyber that took place in the 7th Hijra whilst Abu Dharr arrived there after the battle of trench that was fought in the 5th Hijra. The conclusion arrived at is that Abu Dharr had reached Madina long before Jafar. Abu Dharr never went to Abyssinia nor did he return from there. This serves as further proof that the tradition is a fabrication.


well the writer of the article is very smart...he has also not written one of the hadith to the full...i will just give one paragaraph of the writer(given above) and complete the uncompleted part:

The Messenger of Allah then said: “O Ali! Do you not know that Fatima is a piece of me and I am from her? Whoever disturbs her, disturbs me and whoever disturbs me has disturbed Allah, and whoever disturbs her after my death then as if he has disturbed her in my lifetime and whoever disturbed her in my lifetime then it is as if he has disturbed her after my death.

Ali said: ‘Oh Allah's messenger, yes’. The Prophet said: ‘Then why you did so?’ Ali said: ‘By the one who sent you as Prophet, what you heard about me is not true and I never thought about that.’ The Prophet said: ‘You have spoken the truth’. Then Fatima smiled until her smile was visible.


therefore even if this Hadith "Fatima is part of me...." was said during the time mentioned by the accuser, then it surly does not go for Imam Ali (a.s)...for he even dint intend to marry her....


therefore...in the end of analysing this accusation, it shud now be sure to u that this narration has been made up by enemies of Imam Ali (a.s) such as Hassan bin Arafa and Wakee bin al-Jarah......


i hope my work clarifies my point.....therefore...now if Fatima (a.s) is angry....the Prophet (a.s) is angry...therefore we can see that Fatima (a.s) was angry with Abu Bakr till she died......and its easily seen that such a person does not deserve to rule people....


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Saladin

Verse 8:67-68 was a reproval for a decision the prophet took rejecting Umar al Faruq's opinion and this verse proved that the latter was right.

doesnt this clearly show that he was incapable of making decisions??

 

Read it again. The latter (Umar) was right.


i would apologise as i had written that in haste...

well the shia tafseers i have seen does not narrate the the verse in the context of ure claim....


the rest of ure posts has been replied on this thread...and therefore i will not repeat the answers...


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 4:27pm
i hope u all will w8 as some of my previous posts have still not been approved...


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by asda

Originally posted by seekshidayath

To meet a death of martyr is the moment of happiness. Why do you all weep and cut yourselves. Don't even spare little kids.



You are people - so called - on a right path na !!! Becharay


where is the answer to my ONLY QUESTION.......my only question is also unanswered..
 
I just wanted to answer all your questions from the beginnning. So started with the hadith , which was quoted in your earlier posts. InshaAllah, in my next posts , you shall get your question answered.

while u have problems in our mourning style....well u knw that u have brought this up because u have no answer to my question...
 
You are very impatient and jump in to conclusions. And you are always wrong LOL
 
and thus now u r going off-topic....i will just give a simple reply of logic, and if u want to discuss this further, feel free to open a thread....

mourning is a protest against Yazeediyat as well..thus protesting has many forms...and one of the most common seen today is hunger strike.....u understand the logic between hunger strike, right??? surly u do....but isnt that harming oneself??? yes it is......
 
HUnger strike ! A muslim leads his life following Qur'an and sunnah. Prove me thru Qur'an and sunnah that these forms of strike like hunger strike is allowed in Islam. To cry over dead and valing is strictly prohibitted in Islam.

therefore our mourning, seeing it as a protest,we harm ourself (in limits)....
 
Limits !!!! to cut with swords over a child who is n't even of two years is the LIMIT . Does that child know, why is he protesting for ? Cud you not see the tears and pain of that child ?
 
Non-muslims, due to there ignorance, take shiates as muslims, and question as, Is this Islam ???  But again, i had to explain them about you all and content him

Al-Bukhaari (1294) and Muslim (103) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.” 

Why don't you show your protest on the day when Ali RadhiAllah ta'ala anhu was matryred ?

due to the success in it, the naasibis(anti-shia) do their best to bomb our holy sites on our mourning days.......as they do their best to stop it....but they shud know that they will surly fail...


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 7:28pm

Now answering your question

You asked :
 
y dint h.Fatima (a.s) know that she had no inheiritence??? infact it is not important for Abu Bakr to know about the fact that Prophets (a.s) dint leave any inheiritence...are u trying to tell me that the Prophet (a.s) dint do his job well??
 
I don't understand why your assumptions go wrong always. When i said, fatima RA, did n't know of this hadith which forbaded the inheritance, it does n't mean, Prophet {Pbuh} had n't done his job well !!!
 
These hadiths get spread from another. Its not necessary that as soon as Prophet {Pbuh}, say anything, be heard by all. Esp, to those women who stayed at homes. Anyways, after the death of Prophet { Pbuh}, there were confusions and disagreements regarding his burial. Abu Bakr said: "I heard the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] say: ‘A dead Prophet is buried where he dies.’ Why did all those companions, not know of it then ? Its not necessary that all the sahabas, stay around  24/7.
 
Similarly, we have n number of examples which can be cited to prove that, the sahabas, learnt even the hadiths from each other.
 
Just an other short example : During the early days of ISLAM, the way of offering salah was different. They used to lift there hands from within there legs. But by the time, it got changed, few sahabas who migrated {hijrah}, did not know of it and they used to offer the way they learnt. Later, when they came to know thru other sahabas of it, they immediately learnt.
Anyways, we don't consider it as a sin when fatima RA, did not know of that hadith and claimed her right. Neither do we consider Abu Bakr RA, wrong as he was stricly following the saying of Allah 's messenger.
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by asda

Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem

now i will look into the article...as i have already mentioned that i knw the source of this article...and that has helped me a lot in doing my research to collect a reasonable answer...inshallah the writer of this article will be exposed in his faulty quotes and inshallah i will show how he is misleading the ahlus sunnah....



Originally posted by seekshidayath

Now coming to the hadith u had been repeating
 

Before going into it, let me help you learn a small but important point. A hadith can be well understood, infact can know it in real when, you go thru its context. Welll, here is a hadith from your own source  of ahle byth.

 

“Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry.”

 

Well, this is the hadith na, which you quoted. Now, read its explanation. Let's read it in its context

 

This incident is narrated by the esteemed founding father of Shia theology, Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummi, better known as Al-Sadooq. In his book, Al-Sadooq relayed the following narration on the authority of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq. This narration is also available on Al-Shia.com:

 

Translation: It is narrated on the authority of Abu Abdullah Jafar Al-Sadiq: A miserable of the miserables came to Fatima, the daughter of the Messenger of Allah, and said to her: “Did you not know that Ali proposed to marry (Khataba) the daughter of Abu Jahl?” She said: “Is it true what you say? He said three times: “What I say is true.” Jealousy entered into her (heart) to an extent she could not control, for Allah has ordained that women be jealous and that men perform Jihad, and He has made the reward of the patient (woman) similar to that of the Murabit and Muhajir in the way of Allah.

 

He said: And Fatima’s anguish became severe and she remained thinking about it until night time…she moved to her father’s residence. Ali came to his residence and did not see Fatima and his anguish increased and became great on him, even though he did not know what happened, and he was ashamed to call her from her father’s house so he went to the Masjid and prayed as much as Allah willed, and he collected some of the sand in the Masjid and laid on it.

 

When the Prophet saw how sad and anguished Fatima was, he poured water over himself and wore his clothes and entered the Masjid. He kept praying, making Rukoo and Sujood, and after every time he completed two Raka he made Du’a that Allah remove what Fatima had of sadness and anguish because he left her turning over and breathing heavily. When the Prophet saw that she could not sleep and could not rest he said: “O daughter, rise!” So she rose and the Prophet carried Al-Hassan and she carried Al-Hussain and took hold of Umm Kulthoom’s hand until they reached Ali (AS) while he was sleeping.

 

The Prophet put his foot on Ali, pinched him, and said: “Rise Abu Turab! You have disturbed many a resting person. Call for me Abu Bakr from his house and Umar from his Majlis and Talha.” So Ali went and got them from their houses and they gathered around the Messenger of Allah.

 

The Messenger of Allah then said: “O Ali! Do you not know that Fatima is a piece of me and I am from her. Whoever disturbs her, disturbs me and whoever disturbs me has disturbed Allah, and whoever disturbs her after my death then as if he has disturbed her in my lifetime and whoever disturbed her in my lifetime then as if he has disturbed her after my death.”

 

(source: Ibn Babveh Al Qummi’s “Elal Al-Sharae’”, pp.185-186, Al-Najaf Print; also narrated in Majlisi “Bihar” 43/201-202)


Well according to shia belief, this event never took place...for many reasons which will be discribed...
as u know, every hadith has to be tested from quran, ilme rijal and so on.....inshallah i will look into the flaws of the hadith and then i will look into the fact that even if i accept that hadith to be true, the event if analysed, does not fit ones common sence...may Allah (s.w.t) help me with my task...

the writer of the article is over smart...he thot only sunnis will read his article...and blindly accept his work.....
1st we will look into tho book Elal-Asharae' written by sheikh Saduq (r.a)


http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elalalsharae1ul0.jpg">  
 
If you don't accept hadiths from Abu Hurayrah RA, then why were it  published in your books ? WHy do not accept the hadiths from sahabas , whe led there lives in the companionship of Prophet {Pbuh}


http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=elalalsharae2ca2.jpg">


i think u know urdu...and i hope u can read the beautiful language....in the 1st image i have underlined the last narrators name....which is ABU HURAYRA and not Imam Jafar e Sadiq (a.s) as the writer claims....and
 
I shall share u the page i have, which shows that it was Jafar
 
 
secondly we dont take from abu hurayra, beacuse he is not considered to be a reliable person one reason is given here:
 
http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abyhurayrank3.jpg..(i dint want to waste space or go off topic)

Don't bother about space, Just share it in english since its not just me or you, many other readers shud also know it.

and now look at the second image...(its the next page)...i have surrounded the words by THE WRITER SHIEKH SADOOQ which says "Rivayat humaare nazdeek hargiz motabar aur Mustanid nahee hai"..this in sort means that he say.."the narration is not authentic and fabricated)...

Kyon kar woh aapke ke yahan yeh motabar ho sakthi hai ? Agar motabar hoti, tho unka yeh aqeedah kaisay aagay badtha ?
 
WHy cud the hadith be authentic to you all ? If it were authentic, how cud they spread there false beliefs. Anyways, am going to share a image which shows that it was narrated by Jafar. 


well i am sure every published book has this note on this hadith...and the writer of the article either ignored that, thinking shias will blindly believe him or it was his mischiev which has been exposed...
 
JUst read that exposure, whch am to share

infact if u read all the arabic texts...given in the article...no where it says its been narrated by Imam Jafar e Sadiq (a.s)....
 
You must not have read it carefully, or must have thought, i would not check it, But here is that line again.
 
This incident is narrated by the esteemed founding father of Shia theology, Ibn Babaveh Al-Qummi, better known as Al-Sadooq. In his book, Al-Sadooq relayed the following narration on the authority of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, I cud not present it in Arabic, as that web-page is been removed.
 


now lets see the narration in Bihar Ul Anwar By allamah majlisi....look at the chain of narration (from the site ya-zahra.net)...[أبي ، عن سعد ، عن الحسن بن عرفة ، عن وكيع ، عن محمد بن إسرائيل ، عن أبي صالح ، عن أبي ذر رحمة الله >...as u can see there are 7 narrators till Abu Zarr...and Allamah majlisi was born in the Hijri year of 1024....well this hadith can only accepted if it is possible for all the narrators to live atleast around 125 years above or a bit less....since there is around 1014 year gap between Allamah Majlisi and Prophet Muhammad (a.s)!!!!!
 
 
So ponder over it. How falllible are those hadiths narrated in your books !!! Check on other haidths too and answer it to yourselves, as how you people get deceited by mere handiwork of these satanic influenced people.


since the al-shia link given there does not work..i cud not work on it...
 
 
Yes, its not working now. I checked it and it says that the page is unavailable as its been removed. Did you see how quick are you people o hide the truth. Insha Allah, truth shall prevail. Just look on
 
 

This story is not only narrated by the Shia founding father Al-Qummi, but it is also narrated by Al-Majlisi in his book Jala Al-Eoyon. There are not many scholars of the Shia considered more authoratative than Al-Qummi and Al-Majlisi, and both narrate this story.

 

since the auther has given no quotations from Jala Al-Eoyon....his claims are worthless....
 
Just because its there are no quotations it cannot be said that its worthless. Check it, It is in your books. Don't forget , you are here to know the FACTS. Don't run away from it.

It was actually Ali  who had angered Fatima , and consequently, the Prophet  chastised him by saying that whoever angers Fatima  angers him. According to the Shia narration above, the Prophet  even “put his foot on Ali” and “pinched him.” Not only this, but the Prophet  rounded up some of the Sahabah in order to publically chastise Ali  on the matter. Hence, if the Shia would like to condemn Abu Bakr  for angering Fatima , then what about this incident in which Ali  does so? In fact, the very statement that the silly Shia use against us is in fact the same statement that was used by the Prophet  as a chastisement of Ali !

 

And this was not the only time that Ali angered Fatima . According to Shia sources, we see several other instances. On one occassion, she was angry with Ali  because she saw his head in the lap of a slave girl that was given to him as a gift. She even left him for awhile and went to her father’s house, which is something that females do when they are upset with their husbands or they are facing marital problems. This narration is available on the YaZahra.com, a reputable Shia website:


just because a website says it, and that website is just giving out a book ..we shud believe it????
 
It is from your own website. A very so called REPUTABLE shiate  site.
 





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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 8:46pm
Majlisi “Bihar” 43/201-202
إنه جاء شقي من الاشقياء إلى فاطمة بنت محمد صلى الله عليه واله فقال لها : أما علمت أن عليا قد خطب بنت أبي جهل فقالت : حقاما تقول : فقال : حقا ما أقول - ثلاث مرات - فدخلها من الغيرة ما لا تملك نفسها وذلك أن الله تبارك وتعالى كتب على النساء غيرة وكتب على الرجال جهادا .
وجعل للمحتسبة الصابرة منهن من الاجر ما جعل للمرابط المهاجر في سبيل الله .
قال : فاشتد غم فاطمة عليها السلام من ذلك ، وبقيت متفكرة هي حتى أمست وجاء الليل حملت الحسن على عاتقها الايمن والحسين على عاتقها الايسر وأخذت بيد ام الكثوم اليسرى بيدها اليمنى ثم تحولت إلى حجرة أبيها فجاء علي عليه السلام فدخل في حجرته فلم ير فاطمة عليها السلام فاشتد لذلك غمه وعظم عليه ، ولم يعلم القصة
ماهي فاستحيى أن يدعوها من منزل أبيها فخرج إلى المسجد فصلى فيه ماشاء الله ثم جمع شيئا من كثيب المسجد واتكا عليه .
فلما رأى النبي صلى الله عليه واله ما بفاطمة من الحزن أفاض عليه الماء ثم لبس ثوبه ودخل المسجد ، فلم يزل يصلي بين راكع وساجد وكلما صلى ركعتين دعا الله أن يذهب ما بفاطمة من الحزن والغم وذلك أنه خرج من عندها وهي تتقلب وتتنفس الصعداء فلما رآها النبي صلى الله عليه وآله أنها لا يهنئها النوم ، وليس لها قرار قال لها : قومي يابنية فقامت فحمل النبي صلى الله عليه واله الحسن وحملت فاطمة الحسين وأخذت بيد ام الكثوم فانتهى إلى علي عليه السلام وهو نائم فوضع النبي رجله على رجل علي فغمزه وقال : قم ياأبا تراب ، فكم ساكن أزعجة ، ادع لي أباكبر من داره وعمر من مجلسه وطلحة .
فخرج علي عليه السلام فاستخر جهما من منزلهما ، واجتموا عندرسول الله فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله : يا علي أما علمت أن فاطمة بضعة مني وأنا منها ، فمن آذاها فقد آذاني [ ومن آذاني فقد آذي الله ] ( 1 ) ومن آذاها بعد موتى كان كمن آذاها في حياتي ، ومن آذاها في حياتي كان كمن آذاها بعد موتى
You can check this book and its page. If its in urdu share it here. Even am trying to get it


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 17 September 2008 at 9:33pm
A protest is usually to rectify a wrong, or stimulate action . . .
 
What use is a protest, for something that happened centuries ago? Can protests today change what happened? What happens today during Ashura, is not a form of 'protest' . . . its a biddat, and a form of mourning.
Infact it has no use whatsoever.
 
If a muslim wishes to bereave a loved one, they should invoke Allah's forgiveness on them by praying . . . the way Allah and His Messengers taught us.


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 12:23am
Originally posted by seekshidayath

<FONT size=7>“Majlisi “Bihar” 43/201-202إنه جاء شقي من الاشقياء إلى فاطمة بنت محمد صلى الله عليه واله فقال لها : أما علمت أن عليا قد خطب بنت أبي جهل فقالت : حقاما تقول : فقال : حقا ما أقول - ثلاث مرات - فدخلها من الغيرة ما لا تملك نفسها وذلك أن الله تبارك وتعالى كتب على النساء غيرة وكتب على الرجال جهادا .وجعل للمحتسبة الصابرة منهن من الاجر ما جعل للمرابط المهاجر في سبيل الله .قال : فاشتد غم فاطمة عليها السلام من ذلك ، وبقيت متفكرة هي حتى أمست وجاء الليل حملت الحسن على عاتقها الايمن والحسين على عاتقها الايسر وأخذت بيد ام الكثوم اليسرى بيدها اليمنى ثم تحولت إلى حجرة أبيها فجاء علي عليه السلام فدخل في حجرته فلم ير فاطمة عليها السلام فاشتد لذلك غمه وعظم عليه ، ولم يعلم القصةماهي فاستحيى أن يدعوها من منزل أبيها فخرج إلى المسجد فصلى فيه ماشاء الله ثم جمع شيئا من كثيب المسجد واتكا عليه .فلما رأى النبي صلى الله عليه واله ما بفاطمة من الحزن أفاض عليه الماء ثم لبس ثوبه ودخل المسجد ، فلم يزل يصلي بين راكع وساجد وكلما صلى ركعتين دعا الله أن يذهب ما بفاطمة من الحزن والغم وذلك أنه خرج من عندها وهي تتقلب وتتنفس الصعداء فلما رآها النبي صلى الله عليه وآله أنها لا يهنئها النوم ، وليس لها قرار قال لها : قومي يابنية فقامت فحمل النبي صلى الله عليه واله الحسن وحملت فاطمة الحسين وأخذت بيد ام الكثوم فانتهى إلى علي عليه السلام وهو نائم فوضع النبي رجله على رجل علي فغمزه وقال : قم ياأبا تراب ، فكم ساكن أزعجة ، ادع لي أباكبر من داره وعمر من مجلسه وطلحة .فخرج علي عليه السلام فاستخر جهما من منزلهما ، واجتموا عندرسول الله فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله : يا علي أما علمت أن فاطمة بضعة مني وأنا منها ، فمن آذاها فقد آذاني [ ومن آذاني فقد آذي الله ] ( 1 ) ومن آذاها بعد موتى كان كمن آذاها في حياتي ، ومن آذاها في حياتي كان كمن آذاها بعد موتى

You can check this book and its page. If its in urdu share it here. Even am trying to get it


can u underline the words Ja'far As Sadiq in the above work??


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 12:34am
br seeks..
where have u answered my question??? u r just saying that the sahaaba dint know of something and dats it....how does that prove that it was not important for H.Fatima(a.s) to know about the rules of what she will inheirit... please dont go above the question....please go into it...and analyse the situation....

Surly H.Fatima (a.s) knew the rules....and she did debate it in front of Abu Bakr....and who can be a better knower of Quran than H.Fatima, the person who lived her whole life with Prophet Muhammad (a.s)...under Prophet's supervision...and surly the Prophet (a.s) spent more time of his life with her compared to any other sahaaba..

my question still remains for u to ponder upon...i have given an answer....think with an open mind bro...the truth is crystal clear...

jis se rasool razi, usse sab raazi, jisse rasool naraaz, usse sab naaraaz...


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 12:54am
So ponder over it. How falllible are those hadiths narrated in your books !!! Check on other haidths too and answer it to yourselves, as how you people get deceited by mere handiwork of these satanic influenced people.


agar mei aapkee kitabo'n se quote karna shuru kardiya to aapko pata hee hoga ke kya hoga... hum kyu'n jhootee hadees maanlai'n....bus kitaab mei likh diya to shih ho gaya....
our scholars have just written books and dint care about its authenticity because they spent their life just collecting hadith....and if they wud have gone into any of the narrators world, this wud have taken loads of time...infact there are books of rijal written to prove hadith authenticity...so please dont act naive to the situation...

even someone like ayesha had demanded her right of share in inheiritence:

We read in Sahih al Bukhari: …. "I told 'Urwa bin Az-Zubair of this Hadeeth and he said, 'Malik bin Aus has told the truth" I heard 'Ayesha, the wife of the Prophet saying, 'The wives of the Prophet sent 'Uthman to Abu Bakr demanding from him their 1/8 of the Fai which Allah had granted to his Apostle. But I used to oppose them and say to them: Will you not fear Allah? Don't you know that the Prophet used to say: Our property is not inherited, but whatever we leave is to be given in charity?"

Now there are only two options for Ahl'ul Sunnah to accept: Option 1: Ayesha believed the Hadeeth to be correct and still wanted a share of the Prophet's inheritance.

Option 2: Ayesha deemed the Hadeeth to be false and still maintained this position after all the other wives claims had been rejected.



The Apartments of the wives of the Prophet (a.s) was given to them:

"These apartments remained in the possession of the wives after his death. Whenever any one of his wives died, the apartment went to the possession of the relatives".
Seerat un-Nabi, Vol. 3, Page 164 & 165



Ayesha had some clothes of the Prophet (a.s)..
Sahih Muslim Book 024, Number 5181: Abu Burda reported: I visited A'isha and she brought out for us the coarse lower garment (of Allah's Messenger) made in Yemen and clothes made out of Mulabbada cloth, and she swore in the name of Allah that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) died in these two clothes.


therefore i would advice again to think over the issue with an open mind...the Quran, and many other hadith go against the judgement....
May Allah (s.w.t) help u...


on mourning:it has changed a lot...yazeediyat has been struk a blow....y do u think the wahaaabiz and the US army are doing there best to stop it...y do u think they bomb us on our mourning days....

[QUOTE>Why don't you show your protest on the day when Ali RadhiAllah ta'ala anhu was matryred ?[/QUOTE>

go into any shia mosque on the night of 19th and 21st of Ramazan....and u will see the Protest going on....infact there are more gains in azadari than protest....but that was ez to understand by logic...thats y i took that option....we Protest the death of the Prophet (a.s) as well...as well as the death of his progeny....
while if u dont know....we do celebrate the wiladat and good days of the Ahlel Bayt (a.s), for if a day they are happy, we r happy....wen they are sad, we r sad..

[QUOTE> Limits !!!! to cut with swords over a child who is n't even of two years is the LIMIT . Does that child know, why is he protesting for ? Cud you not see the tears and pain of that child ? [/QUOTE>

shud i show u wat sufis and barelvis do??? no right...therefore how many kids do u see happening dat to???....2...3..5???thats it??well that is surly jaahiliyah...and the majority have condemned such practice..shud i show u some of ure practices and condemn it??? i am not blind bro...and am fully aware that majority sunnis dont accept these(that i may show u)....how many false accusations i have done on ure practices???chk it out on my posts..therefore i wud advice u to plzzzz..open ure mind...


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 4:15am
 
I wanted you to get its urdu / english translation. Infact  this hadith presented in arabic is from your source has no name of any narrators. That does n't mean its not the work of Jafar.

Regarding the answer to your question., i did clearly explain as why fatima RA, must not have heard this hadith. If you are n't able to accept this fact, and am sure you will not accept it. Its not necessary that she must have heard the hadith.Just because she spent most of her time {as per your lines, } it does n't mean she must have known all the rules. Did she accompany Prophet {saws} in wars, or while Hijrah. Was she in masjids along with Prophet {Pbuh}, all the time It would be have been possible that Prophet {saws} told that time. If you do not want to accept this, its your wish.I cannot force you.

Let me also tell you am not amongst the followers of Sufism or belong to Barelvis.

You said in your own words that your scholars did not care for authenticity of hadeeths. Does it not open your minds to think how far is it reliable ? Just cool down and ponder over it.

 Many works of shi'ates are all infallible and filled with lies, hatred towards the companions of Prophet.

The lines you quoted in urdu : jis se rasool razi, usse sab raazi, jisse rasool naraaz, usse sab naaraaz... Can you share its hadith or a verse that supports it.

Kindly, let us use english, as most of our readers are n't urdu readers.  Let me translate this line of yours in urdu
 
u said:
 
agar mei aapkee kitabo'n se quote karna shuru kardiya to aapko pata hee hoga ke kya hoga... hum kyu'n jhootee hadees maanlai'n....bus kitaab mei likh diya to shih ho gaya....
 
It says :

If i start quoting from your books, then do you know what may happen ------ Why shud we believe in a fabricated hadith ----- well, it was written in book so it became correct.

Well, my dear, i don't care if your start up quoting from our books. I shall welcome it. But see that i believe in Quran and sunnah. Our hadiths shud be authentic. We just don't believe in all the books blindly. We do study it only after knowing its authenticity. And do mind that hadiths and the ayahs of  our Qur'an are context based. We don't wrongly interpret the ayahs.

U said :

our scholars have just written books and dint care about its authenticity because they spent their life just collecting hadith....and if they wud have gone into any of the narrators world, this wud have taken loads of time...infact there are books of rijal written to prove hadith authenticity...so please dont act naive to the situation...

Re-read your lines asda.

You blindly follow a book since your scholars had written it . And how did they write --- You yourself admit that they did not  check the authenticity. Even our scholars spent there life, in collecting hadiths, offered isteqarah and then finalised in there books.. And alhamdullilah, they did check the authenticity of hadiths. Else there were many people, who in the name of Prophet, lied and said it was from Prophet. You shall see the chain of narrators too.

U said

We read in Sahih al Bukhari: …. "I told 'Urwa bin Az-Zubair of this Hadeeth and he said, 'Malik bin Aus has told the truth" I heard 'Ayesha, the wife of the Prophet saying, 'The wives of the Prophet sent 'Uthman to Abu Bakr demanding from him their 1/8 of the Fai which Allah had granted to his Apostle. But I used to oppose them and say to them: Will you not fear Allah?

Don't you know that the Prophet used to say: Our property is not inherited, but whatever we leave is to be given in charity?"

Now there are only two options for Ahl'ul Sunnah to accept: Option 1: Ayesha believed the Hadeeth to be correct and still wanted a share of the Prophet's inheritance.

Option 2: Ayesha deemed the Hadeeth to be false and still maintained this position after all the other wives claims had been rejected.

Can  u share here, as in which volume of Sahih Bukhari is it ?  Kindly share its number too, so that i first check its authenticity and then reply you.


The Apartments of the wives of the Prophet (a.s) was given to them:

"These apartments remained in the possession of the wives after his death. Whenever any one of his wives died, the apartment went to the possession of the relatives".
Seerat un-Nabi, Vol. 3, Page 164 & 165

Whose seerah is it ? We have many  people writing the biographies of Prophet. Can you let me know if this line of yours is supported by any hadith ?

U said :
Ayesha had some clothes of the Prophet (a.s)..
Sahih Muslim Book 024, Number 5181: Abu Burda reported: I visited A'isha and she brought out for us the coarse lower
garment (of Allah's Messenger) made in Yemen and clothes made out of Mulabbada cloth, and she swore in the name of Allah that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) died in these two clothes.
therefore i would advice again to think over the issue with an open mind...the Quran, and many other hadith go against the judgement....
May Allah (s.w.t) help u...

What if she had those clothes. Why is it wrong when she stored it. We have many such memoirs of Prophet {pbuh}, in the museums.

May Allah swt guide the one who is astray. Ameen.

U said :

go into any shia mosque on the night of 19th and 21st of Ramazan....and u will see the Protest going on..

Why don't you display your mournings on the roads as you do on 10th of Muharram. Is it that you have little pain for Ali RA, so cry inside !!!! .

infact there are more gains in azadari than protest....but that was ez to understand by logic...thats y i took that option....we Protest the death of the Prophet (a.s) as well...as well as the death of his progeny....

Why do you protest the death of Prophet ? ???? I wonder why you all protest for it?  ANd whom do you show these protests to ?

while if u dont know....we do celebrate the wiladat and good days of the Ahlel Bayt (a.s), for if a day they are happy, we r happy....wen they are sad, we r sad..

I did present you the hadith which  forbids mourning and wailing. If you fear Allah swt and obey His messenger, kindly try to follow it.

U said :
therefore how many kids do u see happening dat to???....2...3..5???thats it??

BE IT one child, does the pain of the increase if the number increases. Pain is pain. If at all you feel you are to mourn and wail and hurt yourselves, why do you display over roads. Just lashing over chest, until blood flows ----- *****-- IS THIS Islam ?

WHy don't you also display your mournings and wailings, for those matryrs of Islam, during Prophet {saws}, during Battle of Badr, Uhud, and all that revolution. Even they are shaheeds ? May be you cry for them inside your mosques.



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 4:20am
 
Now, coming to an other FACT, I don't think you shall accept it over boards.

The fact is that according to your books, shia women do not inherit lands or fixed property.

Well, lets look in to this hadith from your books

In the Shia book of Hadith al-Kafi, al-Kulayni has included a chapter entitled “Women do not inherit land.” In this chapter, he narrates a Hadith from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir:

“Women do not inherit anything of land or fixed property.” (al-Kafi, vol. 7 p. 127, Kitab al-Mawarith, hadith no. 1)

He asked Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq about what a woman inherits. The Imam replied:

“They will get the value of the bricks, the building, the wood and the bamboo. As for the land and the fixed property, they will get no inheritance from that.” (Tahdhib al-Ahkam, vol. 9 p. 299; Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 104 p. 351)

Imam Muhammad al-Baqir said:

“A woman will not inherit anything of land and fixed property.” (Tahdhib al-Ahkam, vol. 9 p. 298; al-Istibsar, vol. 4 p. 152)

Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq said:

“Women will have nothing of houses or land.” (Tahdhib al-Ahkam, vol. 9 p. 299; Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 104 p. 351)

Now, when your sources say that women cannot inherit land, then how why do you claim that the land of inheritance be given to Fatima RA ? A big question . May Allah swt  guide you atleast thru this question.

An other question to you

When Ali {RA} became Caliph, he did not revoke the decision of Abu Bakr {RA} on the propety of Fadak. What stopped Ali {RA} from doing this? So why are the Shia against Abu Bakr {RA} when Ali {RA} upheld the decision?



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 5:44am
br....i want u to think on ure own words:
ure accusation!!!
You blindly follow a book since your scholars had written it . And how did they write --- You yourself admit that they did not check the authenticity.

You said in your own words that your scholars did not care for authenticity of hadeeths. Does it not open your minds to think how far is it reliable ?


we dont blindly follow those books FYI!!!!!do u even know how much a hadith is looked upon...

now ure claim:
Even our scholars spent there life, in collecting hadiths, offered isteqarah and then finalised in there books.. And alhamdullilah, they did check the authenticity of hadiths.

and then u say:
i don't care if your start up quoting from our books. I shall welcome it. But see that i believe in Quran and sunnah. Our hadiths shud be authentic. We just don't believe in all the books blindly. We do study it only after knowing its authenticity.


wen it comes to u, u will chk the authenticity, and wen it comes to me, i shud accept it blindly????wat a joke...

Many works of shi'ates are all infallible and filled with lies


lol...u knw wat...do ure best in trying to inflame me...u have failed...alhamdulillah...please stop spreading lies about shias...

Can u share here, as in which volume of Sahih Bukhari is it ? Kindly share its number too, so that i first check its authenticity and then reply you.


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 367

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html


Whose seerah is it ? We have many people writing the biographies of Prophet. Can you let me know if this line of yours is supported by any hadith ?

i think its a scholarly work....since its a sunni auther....i hope he has not taken this out from his pocket...he must have gone thru books..
heres da image: http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seeratunnabiv3p164165at5.jpg


What if she had those clothes. Why is it wrong when she stored it

arent clothes part of inheiritence??? wasnt this charity??

br...y are u being partial in ure judgement....wen aysha has a property of the Prophet (a.s), u say "Why is it wrong?" and wen Fatima (a.s) wants her right, u say it was not supposed to be her....REMEMBER...according to u the Prophet does not leave inheiritence!!! so where did this come from...

Why don't you display your mournings on the roads as you do on 10th of Muharram. Is it that you have little pain for Ali RA, so cry inside !!!!


its the same pain....no one has it more or less for any Imam (a.s)...infact there are juloos in pakistan on the death of Imam Ali (a.s).....what do u know about us??just what ure sunni scholar told u about shia, u belive it??? Br...i Pray for Allah (s.w.t) to help u..


BE IT one child, does the pain of the increase if the number increases. Pain is pain. If at all you feel you are to mourn and wail and hurt yourselves, why do you display over roads. Just lashing over chest, until blood flows ----- *****-- IS THIS Islam ?


did u even read wat i say....i have already said its an act of jahilliyah, and is not followed by 99.9% of shias!!!" plz dont blame us of a lie which few jahil ppl do.....

May be you cry for them inside your mosques.

if its a day of Happiness in the prophets Family we celebarate...and if its a day of sadness...then we observe it....


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 6:53am
Originally posted by seekshidayath

 

Now, coming to an other FACT, I don't think you shall accept it over boards.

The fact is that according to your books, shia women do not inherit lands or fixed property.


Well, lets look in to this hadith from your books


In the Shia book of Hadith al-Kafi, al-Kulayni has included a chapter entitled “Women do not inherit land.” In this chapter, he narrates a Hadith from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir:


“Women do not inherit anything of land or fixed property.” (al-Kafi, vol. 7 p. 127, Kitab al-Mawarith, hadith no. 1)


He asked Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq about what a woman inherits. The Imam replied:


“They will get the value of the bricks, the building, the wood and the bamboo. As for the land and the fixed property, they will get no inheritance from that.” (Tahdhib al-Ahkam, vol. 9 p. 299; Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 104 p. 351)


Imam Muhammad al-Baqir said:


“A woman will not inherit anything of land and fixed property.” (Tahdhib al-Ahkam, vol. 9 p. 298; al-Istibsar, vol. 4 p. 152)


Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq said:


“Women will have nothing of houses or land.” (Tahdhib al-Ahkam, vol. 9 p. 299; Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 104 p. 351)


Now, when your sources say that women cannot inherit land, then how why do you claim that the land of inheritance be given to Fatima RA ? A big question . May Allah swt  guide you atleast thru this question.


An other question to you


When Ali {RA} became Caliph, he did not revoke the decision of Abu Bakr {RA} on the propety of Fadak. What stopped Ali {RA} from doing this? So why are the Shia against Abu Bakr {RA} when Ali {RA} upheld the decision?





Mashallah!!!! u have done everything to help me....thank you very much....
read what quotes u have give...WOMEN does not inheirit land...isnt it???? WOMEN...not doughter.....wats da difference???

the WOMEN u r talking about is a wife...in urdu we say, "ahmed kee aurat"...exact translation, "ahmeds women"...correct translation ""ahmeds wife"....am i correct??

this hadith is in various shia books....and i will expose the writer of the article again inshallah...

actually the auther has misguided people by again quoting the hadith's one line and not the whole hadith:

as i have said: this hadith is available in other books as well...so its ez to understand wat i am saying...lets look at the same hadith in Elal-Ash Sharae'


http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=meeraasinshiabooksca9.jpg">


look at the image...i advice u to open it...and read from the top right hand side (after zooming it)...since i am not so gud in translation....can u please translate it for our non-urdu readers....


well for our non-urdu readers...i have the same hadith in the book Wasail as-Shia:

Maysarah: I he asked Abu Abdullah [as> about what a woman inherits. The Imam replied: ‘They will get the value of the bricks, the building, the wood and the bamboo. As for the land and the fixed property, they will get no inheritance from that’. Maysarah said: ‘What about daughters?’ He [as> replied: The daughters shall inherit.’ Maysarah said: ‘How come they (widow) don’t inherit (land or building) although their share is 1/8 of the inheritance and the (daughters') share is 1/4 ?’ He replied: ‘Because she is not a blood relative to inherit but she is relative in law. And this (widow not inheriting land) is because that woman might marry again and bring her husband or her sons from other husband (in the land/house) which would cause rivalry with others living in their house.’


http://www.rafed.net/books/hadith/wasael-26/26010.html - Wasail al-Shia, Volume 26 pages 206-207


the writer of the article has been exposed AGAIN!!!!please stop c&p from this website...this website will only bring shame to u.....plzz...and think with an open mind...and plzzz dont deny the facts just because u dont like it....



When Ali {RA} became Caliph, he did not revoke the decision of Abu Bakr {RA} on the propety of Fadak. What stopped Ali {RA} from doing this? So why are the Shia against Abu Bakr {RA} when Ali {RA} upheld the decision?



i knew that this wud come up....

there are many reasons...one is that he was following the sunnah of the Prophet (a.s)....when Prophet (a.s) returned to Makkah (after fatah e Makkah) he was urged by the sahaaba to take back his house wich was captured by aqeel?...the Prophet refused to do that...


same is the case with Imam ALi (a.s)

The restoration of Fadak carried a benefit, but would have created an image that Imam Ali (as) had reclaimed land that had been taken by the earlier Khalifas. He was aware that the current unlawful occupiers would openly resist this and would spread Fitnah throughout the empire, complaining against Imam Ali (as)’s 'unjust usurpation' of the land that had been given to them by the third Khalifa.


as u must have known, Fidak was not with the goverment during his khilafah....

in Al-Aqd al-Farid, Volume 2 page 87:


وأقطع فدك مروانَ

“He (Uthman) granted Fadak to Marwan”



i hope this is enough to satisfy ure answer.....



Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by asda

br....i want u to think on ure own words:
ure accusation!!!
You blindly follow a book since your scholars had written it . And how did they write --- You yourself admit that they did not check the authenticity.

You said in your own words that your scholars did not care for authenticity of hadeeths. Does it not open your minds to think how far is it reliable ?

we dont blindly follow those books FYI!!!!!do u even know how much a hadith is looked upon...
 
But you said that in your earlier post : These were your lines - " our scholars have just written books and dint care about its authenticity because they spent their life just collecting hadith....and if they wud have gone into any of the narrators world, this wud have taken loads of time...infact there are books of rijal written to prove hadith authenticity...so please dont act naive to the situation...


now ure claim:
Even our scholars spent there life, in collecting hadiths, offered isteqarah and then finalised in there books.. And alhamdullilah, they did check the authenticity of hadiths.

and then u say:
i don't care if your start up quoting from our books. I shall welcome it. But see that i believe in Quran and sunnah. Our hadiths shud be authentic. We just don't believe in all the books blindly. We do study it only after knowing its authenticity.

wen it comes to u, u will chk the authenticity, and wen it comes to me, i shud accept it blindly????wat a joke...
 
What seems authentic to you is unauthentic for me and that which is authentic for me is unauthentic for you. You don't accept Abu Hurayrah {May Allah 's mercy be upon him}. We hold respect for him. You said that your scholars did n't care to look as how authentic they were. Hah !! And you follow it. What a Joke ?

Many works of shi'ates are all infallible and filled with lies


lol...u knw wat...do ure best in trying to inflame me...u have failed...alhamdulillah...please stop spreading lies about shias...
 
Its again an assumption {that i try to inflame u} that went wrong as usual . Its a FACT not a lie my dear. If you are n't able to accept it
 


an u share here, as in which volume of Sahih Bukhari is it ? Kindly share its number too, so that i first check its authenticity and then reply you.


Volume 5, Book 59, Number 367

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt - http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt
 
.html
 
Well, my checking did get paid. All my praises be to Allah swt , who had given me hidayah to check it. Alhamdullilah.
 
Let me  share that hadith in full. What you shared is only last little part.
 
Narrated Malik bin Aus Al-Hadathan An-Nasri: That once 'Umar bin Al-Khattab called him and while he was sitting with him, his gatekeeper, Yarfa came and said, "Will you admit 'Uthman, 'Abdur-Rahman bin Auf, AzZubair and Sad (bin Abi Waqqas) who are waiting for your permission?" 'Umar said, "Yes, let them come in." After a while, Yarfa- came again and said, "Will you admit 'Ali and 'Abbas who are asking your permission?" 'Umar said, "Yes." So, when the two entered, 'Abbas said, "O chief of the believers! Judge between me and this (i.e. 'Ali). "Both of them had a dispute regarding the property of Bani An-Nadir which Allah had given to His Apostle as Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting), 'Ali and 'Abbas started reproaching each other. The (present) people (i.e. 'Uthman and his companions) said, "O chief of the believers! Give your verdict in their case and relieve each from) the other." 'Umar said, "Wait I beseech you, by Allah, by Whose Permission both the heaven and the earth stand fast! Do you know that Allah's Apostle said, 'We (Prophets) our properties are not to be inherited, and whatever we leave, is to be spent in charity,' and he said it about himself?" They (i.e. 'Uthman and his company) said, "He did say it. "'Umar then turned towards 'Ali and 'Abbas and said, "I beseech you both, by Allah! Do you know that Allah's Apostle said this?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "Now I am talking to you about this matter. Allah the Glorified favored His Apostle with something of this Fai (i.e. booty won without fighting) which He did not give to anybody else. Allah said:-- "And what Allah gave to His Apostle ("Fai"" Booty) from them--For which you made no expedition With either Calvary or camelry. But Allah gives power to His Apostles Over whomsoever He will And Allah is able to do all things." (59.6) So this property was especially granted to Allah's Apostle . But by Allah, the Prophet neither took it all for himself only, nor deprived you of it, but he gave it to all of you and distributed it amongst you till only this remained out of it. And from this Allah's Apostle used to spend the yearly maintenance for his family, and whatever used to remain, he used to spend it where Allah's Property is spent (i.e. in charity), Allah's Apostle kept on acting like that during all his life, Then he died, and Abu Bakr said, 'I am the successor of Allah's Apostle.' So he (i.e. Abu Bakr) took charge of this property and disposed of it in the same manner as Allah's Apostle used to do, and all of you (at that time) knew all about it." Then 'Umar turned towards 'Ali and 'Abbas and said, "You both remember that Abu Bakr disposed of it in the way you have described and Allah knows that, in that matter, he was sincere, pious, rightly guided and the follower of the right. Then Allah caused Abu Bakr to die and I said, 'I am the successor of Allah's Apostle and Abu Bakr.' So I kept this property in my possession for the first two years of my rule (i.e. Caliphate and I used to dispose of it in the same wa as Allah's Apostle and Abu Bakr used to do; and Allah knows that I have been sincere, pious, rightly guided an the follower of the right (in this matte Later on both of you (i.e. 'Ali and Abbas) came to me, and the claim of you both was one and the same, O 'Abbas! You also came to me. So I told you both that Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited, but whatever we leave is to be given in charity.' Then when I thought that I should better hand over this property to you both or the condition that you will promise and pledge before Allah that you will dispose it off in the same way as Allah's Apostle and Abu Bakr did and as I have done since the beginning of my caliphate or else you should not speak to me (about it).' So, both of you said to me, 'Hand it over to us on this condition.' And on this condition I handed it over to you. Do you want me now to give a decision other than that (decision)? By Allah, with Whose Permission both the sky and the earth stand fast, I will never give any decision other than that (decision) till the Last Hour is established. But if you are unable to manage it (i.e. that property), then return it to me, and I will manage on your behalf." The sub-narrator said, "I told 'Urwa bin Az-Zubair of this Hadith and he said, 'Malik bin Aus has told the truth" I heard 'Aisha, the wife of the Prophet saying, 'The wives of the Prophet sent 'Uthman to Abu Bakr demanding from him their 1/8 of the Fai which Allah had granted to his Apostle. But I used to oppose them and say to them: Will you not fear Allah? Don't you know that the Prophet used to say: Our property is not inherited, but whatever we leave is to be given in charity? The Prophet mentioned that regarding himself. He added: 'The family of Muhammad can take their sustenance from this property. So the wives of the Prophet stopped demanding it when I told them of that.' So, this property (of Sadaqa) was in the hands of Ali who withheld it from 'Abbas and overpowered him. Then it came in the hands of Hasan bin 'Ali, then in the hands of Husain bin 'Ali, and then in the hands of Ali bin Husain and Hasan bin Hasan, and each of the last two used to manage it in turn, then it came in the hands of Zaid bin Hasan, and it was truly the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle ."  (Book http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=59&translator=1&start=0&number=367 - #59 , Hadith http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=59&translator=1&start=0&number=367#367 - #367 )
Also read that which is in bold. Even the wives of Prophet, mother of we believers, did not know of that saying of the Prophet, but when they knew of it they stopped demanding it.
 
 
 



seerah is it ? We have many people writing the biographies of Prophet. Can you let me know if this line of yours is supported by any hadith ?[/QUOTE]
i think its a scholarly work....since its a sunni auther....i hope he has not taken this out from his pocket...he must have gone thru books..
heres da image: http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seeratunnabiv3p164165at5.jpg


What if she had those clothes. Why is it wrong when she stored it

arent clothes part of inheiritence??? wasnt this charity??

br...y are u being partial in ure judgement....wen aysha has a property of the Prophet (a.s), u say "Why is it wrong?" and wen Fatima (a.s) wants her right, u say it was not supposed to be her....REMEMBER...according to u the Prophet does not leave inheiritence!!! so where did this come from...
 
Go thru that hadith again , esp its bold part. Even when the wives of Prophet demanded it , {unknowingly}., they were stopped. And do you know the what all comes under "inheritance". Are clothes, to be INHERITED ? Haha , may be you all inherit even cloths.
 
 


 don't you display your mournings on the roads as you do on 10th of Muharram. Is it that you have little pain for Ali RA, so cry inside !!!![/QUOTE]

its the same pain....no one has it more or less for any Imam (a.s)...infact there are juloos in pakistan on the death of Imam Ali (a.s).....what do u know about us??just what ure sunni scholar told u about shia, u belive it??? Br...i Pray for Allah (s.w.t) to help u..
 
Shias here don't come on roads on the death anniversary of Ali RA. Perhaps they are less jahel than those in pak. I thought they have less grief over death of Ali RA than Hussain RA, that they do not display over roads.  May Allah swt give them hidayah not to mourn for the dead too. By the way , i have an other question, but before that thanks for clearing it, that this form of protesting is an act of Jahilliya which is to be condemned. Kindly spread this word in your community. My question is, do you also mourn or protest for the death of Khadijah RA., be it in mosques ? Kindly, do answer this.

f sadness...then we observe it....
[/QUOTE]


-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 18 September 2008 at 6:56pm
An other question
 
Why do you stress on just Fatima RA, even wives of Prophet {Pbuh} shud be having right over the Property na ? Even his other daughters, Zaynab and Umm Kulthum were alive then . Don't forget that. We all know that Khaybar was taken in the 7th year after the Hijrah, and that Zaynab died in the 8th year, and Umm Kulthum in the 9th year after the Hijrah. How can it then be thought that Prophet {Pbuh]  would give something to Fatimah but not to his other daughters?
 
Now acc to the hadith which you pasted, it says, widows cannot inherit, as they may get married again. Here, its an exception. Wives of Prophet {Pbuh} were not to marry any. So even they had there right over the property, if i agree that Fatima RA, had the right.  When you all condemn Abu Bakr , may Allah's mercy be upon him, for following the saying of Prophet, if he were wrong, nauzbillah, he would have given some share to his own daughter, Ayesha RA, who was also a wife of Prophet. Kindly, do ponder over it ! ! !
 
 
 


-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 4:21am
But you said that in your earlier post : These were your lines


they were compilers...and later scholars have written books on rijal...u just wanna go off topic dont u??.and wen i present a hadith, u wanna chk its authenticity...and i cant do that....how biased can u be...

What seems authentic to you is unauthentic for me and that which is authentic for me is unauthentic for you. You don't accept Abu Hurayrah {May Allah 's mercy be upon him}. We hold respect for him. You said that your scholars did n't care to look as how authentic they were. Hah !! And you follow it. What a Joke ?


do u wanna debate me about the acts of abu hurayra??


Its again an assumption {that i try to inflame u} that went wrong as usual . Its a FACT not a lie my dear. If you are n't able to accept it

ok then..do u accept the above debate??then i will show u wat a lie is..


Also read that which is in bold. Even the wives of Prophet, mother of we believers, did not know of that saying of the Prophet, but when they knew of it they stopped demanding it.


that means no body else knew about this hadith...and such an important matter...and the family dint knew it....well u have already blamed the Prophet of not doing his duty well....


[QUOTE[Go thru that hadith again , esp its bold part. Even when the wives of Prophet demanded it , {unknowingly}., they were stopped. And do you know the what all comes under "inheritance". Are clothes, to be INHERITED ? Haha , may be you all inherit even cloths.[/QUOTE]

well who shud i laugh on...i will give no explaination and just give a small gift....plzzz bro...dont spread the debate if u dont know the rules...plzzz..the truth is in front of u:

"rather the clothes and belongings of the deceased are part of his estate, and his heirs are entitled to them; they may make use of them or sell them"
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/102403


now wat do u have to say bro.....May Allah (s.w.t) give u hidayah!!!


Shias here don't come on roads on the death anniversary of Ali RA. Perhaps they are less jahel than those in pak. I thought they have less grief over death of Ali RA than Hussain RA, that they do not display over roads. May Allah swt give them hidayah not to mourn for the dead too. By the way , i have an other question, but before that thanks for clearing it, that this form of protesting is an act of Jahilliya which is to be condemned. Kindly spread this word in your community. My question is, do you also mourn or protest for the death of Khadijah RA., be it in mosques ? Kindly, do answer this.


bro do u think it is a show of power??? well where it is possible we mourn...going on streets does not show that the grief is more or less....about the death of H.Khadija, i think i dont really need to answer it...u knw the Prophet (a.s) mourned her death....just put 2+2=4..and the answer to it is YES!!!

if mourning is an act of jahiliyah, then u have to accept that the deen u follow is not deen e fitrat(nature)....we mourn because we love them, and no ones forced to do an act...

well i dont need to spread the word about wat they do to children is wrong...everyone knows it....its just those who have gone astray and ppl who have a bit of nassayree aqeeda do these things...but the blame comes on shias...


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 4:37am
Why do you stress on just Fatima RA, even wives of Prophet {Pbuh} shud be having right over the Property na ? Even his other daughters, Zaynab and Umm Kulthum were alive then . Don't forget that. We all know that Khaybar was taken in the 7th year after the Hijrah, and that Zaynab died in the 8th year, and Umm Kulthum in the 9th year after the Hijrah. How can it then be thought that Prophet {Pbuh] would give something to Fatimah but not to his other daughters?


since the other doughtets (if they were his biological doughters) were dead, the dead does not get any inheiritence....and as far as i know, the son in law does not inheirit anything as well...so there is no really doubts in it...


Now acc to the hadith which you pasted, it says, widows cannot inherit, as they may get married again. Here, its an exception. Wives of Prophet {Pbuh} were not to marry any. So even they had there right over the property, if i agree that Fatima RA, had the right. When you all condemn Abu Bakr , may Allah's mercy be upon him, for following the saying of Prophet, if he were wrong, nauzbillah, he would have given some share to his own daughter, Ayesha RA, who was also a wife of Prophet. Kindly, do ponder over it ! ! !


well thats a genera rule which has to be applied...being the wife of th Prophet (a.s) has more responsibility and therefore further rules are added on them and rules cannot be eased for worldly reasons...


there are many verses in the Quran as well which show that Prophets (a.s) do inheirit....and therefore there is no doubt about it...till now we have mostly relying on hadith to prove a point...inshallah lets see some of the aaya's of the Holy Quran...

And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)"
Al-Qur'an, Surah 27, Ayah 16

Who shall inherit of me and inherit (also) of the house of Jacob…”
Al-Qur'an, Surah 19, Ayah 6



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 3:52pm
 
   asda, while you are downplaying the senior most honored and beloved Companions of the prophet, may I ask you, who is your Imam now and where is he? because you need guidance and that is only possible from a guided one. Who is your Imam and the Imam of the Shias today? Where is he now?
 
 We had another Hadith (even though i do not run to any Hadith too much). That was an important information that "Allah will raise at the turn of every century, amongst this Ummah those who will revive (reform) their religion." Such people are called the reformers (Mujaddideen). They have been appearing amongst Muslims in every century. They did well and guided the Muslims and gave new life to the original religion.
 
 What says you and how is your religion being revived? Please give some details about your Imam sahib. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 19 September 2008 at 7:38pm
 they were compilers...and later scholars have written books on rijal...u just wanna go off topic dont u??

How can i trust those books written by a scholar, hidden in a cave.

.and wen i present a hadith, u wanna chk its authenticity...and i cant do that....how biased can u be...

It was good of me, that by Allah's hidayah, i checked that hadith. Else how would u get caught, when you presented only last part of it. If you want me accept Ayesha RA, preserving the clothes of Prophet, then you shud also accept the first part of  that hadith.
 
Regarding Abu Hurayrah , May Allah 's mercy be upon him,  i know your accusations against him. And again its going to be the same un-ending discussion. Since i gave you a word that i shall be here, either till the topic gets closed or, one of us agrees with other's aqeedah, am here. Else, i would not have wasted my  time. Neither, i shall be accepting  your books nor will you. So there's no point of we meeting. Let's go on until, we either get bashed by mods or its closed.

well who shud i laugh on...i will give no explaination and just give a small gift....plzzz bro...dont spread the debate if u dont know the rules...plzzz..the truth is in front of u:
"rather the clothes and belongings of the deceased are part of his estate, and his heirs are entitled to them; they may make use of them or sell them"  http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/102403 - http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/102403
 
Regarding clothes, thank you for letting me know that they come under inheritance. But here in Prophet;s case, i would regard it as  exception. If  u have read those hadiths, you would see, that the land of inheritance was a means of earning charity. And how would one earn any wealth by the clothes of Prophet ?
 
Moreover, we made it clear thru our hadiths that since they {daughter and wives of Prophet}, did not know that hadith they demanded there share. But when they knew it, never did they demand again. We also get to read that Ali and Abu Bakr RA, had good relations with each other. Infact it was Asma Bint Abu Bakr and Ali RA, who performed ghusl of Fatima RA, after her death. After her death, Ali RA got married to Umar RA's daughter. They all had good relations with each other. Years after, due to the influence of Jews, few hypocrites started up framing stories and fabricated them. This is what we believe in, after going thru our authentic records.  We respect all the companions of Prophet and hold honour for all of them.

that means no body else knew about this hadith...
 
I did explain you that its not necessary that all knew the sayings at the same time. When the differences of opinions arised of where Prophet {Pbuh} was to be buried,  Abu Bakr RA, solved the dispute easily, by narrating the hadiths.Now read this par t of hadith , "The (present) people (i.e. 'Uthman and his companions) said, "O chief of the believers! Give your verdict in their case and relieve each from) the other." 'Umar said, "Wait I beseech you, by Allah, by Whose Permission both the heaven and the earth stand fast! Do you know that Allah's Apostle said, 'We (Prophets) our properties are not to be inherited, and whatever we leave, is to be spent in charity,' and he said it about himself?" They (i.e. 'Uthman and his company) said, "He did say it." This shows that , even Umar RA and 'Uthman, 'Abdur-Rahman bin Auf, AzZubair and Sad (bin Abi Waqqas),also k new this.
 
bro do u think it is a show of power??? well where it is possible we mourn...going on streets does not show that the grief is more or less....about the death of H.Khadija, i think i dont really need to answer it...u knw the Prophet (a.s) mourned her death....just put 2+2=4..and the answer to it is YES!!!
Do u get to read any where that Prophet {pbuh]  cried or wailed, even years after death of Khadijah RA. Yes, he did recall those times spent with her, but did not mourn over it. Do you get to read any such day wherein Prophet {pbuh} ever mourn of it. Its natural that we cannot forget our beloved ones. Islam does n;t prohibit recalling those times spent with them.
 
if mourning is an act of jahiliyah, then u have to accept that the deen u follow is not deen e fitrat(nature)....we mourn because we love them, and no ones forced to do an act...
It is fitrah to get sad when our loved ones pass. Islam teaches us as how to face and behave at such times. There's a hadith that the deceased is tormented in the grave , because of the  wailings over him. Not more than 3 days, shud we mourn. Even we love Ali RA and his sons.But don't exaggerate them. Do you also mourn , commemorating Hamzah RA, uncle of Prophet's death. When is that day of mourning ? Read this hadith from Bukhari
 
Narrated Zainab bint Abi Salama : I went to Um Habiba, the wife of Prophet, who said, "I heard the Prophets saying, 'It is not legal for a woman who believes in Allah and the Last Day to mourn for any dead person for more than three days except for her husband, (for whom she should mourn) for four months and ten days'." Later I went to Zainab bint Jahsh when her brother died; she asked for some scent, and after using it she said, "I am not in need of scent but I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'It is not legal for a woman who believes in Allah and the Last Day to mourn for more than three days for any dead person except her husband, (for whom she should mourn) for four months and ten days.' "  (Book #23, Hadith #371)
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 20 September 2008 at 6:09am
How can i trust those books written by a scholar, hidden in a cave.


scholar??...cave???..hidden?? bhai kya huwa aapko??(what has suddenly happened to u??)



inshallah i will soon reply u, since u must know that we r bz with our majaalis as the big nights have started...

I pray to Allah (s.w.t) that all jaa'iz hajaat of u all be accepted and may Allah (s.w.t) give u the oppertunity for as much ebaadaat as possible in the nights of Laylatul Qadr....

p:s please read the second post on:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12233&PN=6


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 7:01am
Originally posted by seekshidayath


 

bro do u think it is a show of power??? well where it is possible we mourn...going on streets does not show that the grief is more or less....about the death of H.Khadija, i think i dont really need to answer it...u knw the Prophet (a.s) mourned her death....just put 2+2=4..and the answer to it is YES!!!

Do u get to read any where that Prophet {pbuh]  cried or wailed, even years after death of Khadijah RA. Yes, he did recall those times spent with her, but did not mourn over it. Do you get to read any such day wherein Prophet {pbuh} ever mourn of it. Its natural that we cannot forget our beloved ones. Islam does n;t prohibit recalling those times spent with them.

 

if mourning is an act of jahiliyah, then u have to accept that the deen u follow is not deen e fitrat(nature)....we mourn because we love them, and no ones forced to do an act...

It is fitrah to get sad when our loved ones pass. Islam teaches us as how to face and behave at such times. There's a hadith that the deceased is tormented in the grave , because of the  wailings over him. Not more than 3 days, shud we mourn. Even we love Ali RA and his sons.But don't exaggerate them. Do you also mourn , commemorating Hamzah RA, uncle of Prophet's death. When is that day of mourning ? Read this hadith from Bukhari

 

Narrated Zainab bint Abi Salama : I went to Um Habiba, the wife of Prophet, who said, "I heard the Prophets saying, 'It is not legal for a woman who believes in Allah and the Last Day to mourn for any dead person for more than three days except for her husband, (for whom she should mourn) for four months and ten days'." Later I went to Zainab bint Jahsh when her brother died; she asked for some scent, and after using it she said, "I am not in need of scent but I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'It is not legal for a woman who believes in Allah and the Last Day to mourn for more than three days for any dead person except her husband, (for whom she should mourn) for four months and ten days.' "  (Book #23, Hadith #371)

 


i have answered all this in this page:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12233&PID=112232#112232   post number 4...


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 7:12am
read my ans in green


Originally posted by seekshidayath

 they were compilers...and later scholars have written books on rijal...u just wanna go off topic dont u??

How can i trust those books written by a scholar, hidden in a cave.


are u sleeping?

.and wen i present a hadith, u wanna chk its authenticity...and i cant do that....how biased can u be...

It was good of me, that by Allah's hidayah, i checked that hadith. Else how would u get caught, when you presented only last part of it. If you want me accept Ayesha RA, preserving the clothes of Prophet, then you shud also accept the first part of  that hadith.


infact no one knew the hadith....and dats evident....can u prove Abu Bakr's stance from the Quran???? i have already shown u from quran that the Prophets (a.s) do leave inheiritence...

and regarding the clothes of the Prophet(a.s)...well as i have already told u that its inheiritnce...and according to the laws by abu bakr, it shud not be with aysha...and shud have been wid the goverment....
it is odd that u believe that none of the family members knew the hadith, even tho it was most important for them to know....

 

Regarding Abu Hurayrah , May Allah 's mercy be upon him,  i know your accusations against him. And again its going to be the same un-ending discussion. Since i gave you a word that i shall be here, either till the topic gets closed or, one of us agrees with other's aqeedah, am here. Else, i would not have wasted my  time. Neither, i shall be accepting  your books nor will you. So there's no point of we meeting. Let's go on until, we either get bashed by mods or its closed.


lets put it full and final....Prove the Stance of Abu Bakr From Quran....The Quran is hidayat for the Ummah isnt it....without any doubt....

well who shud i laugh on...i will give no explaination and just give a small gift....plzzz bro...dont spread the debate if u dont know the rules...plzzz..the truth is in front of u:

"rather the clothes and belongings of the deceased are part of his estate, and his heirs are entitled to them; they may make use of them or sell them"  http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/102403 - http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/102403

 

Regarding clothes, thank you for letting me know that they come under inheritance. But here in Prophet;s case, i would regard it as  exception. If  u have read those hadiths, you would see, that the land of inheritance was a means of earning charity. And how would one earn any wealth by the clothes of Prophet ?


the clothes can be given to the needy...
ok..now imagine if someone auctions for the clothes of Prophet Muhammad (a.s)....how much will u pay for it???? i am sure u r gonna give ure best bid on it...

these 2 points answers clearly to ure objections..


 

Moreover, we made it clear thru our hadiths that since they {daughter and wives of Prophet}, did not know that hadith they demanded there share. But when they knew it, never did they demand again. We also get to read that Ali and Abu Bakr RA, had good relations with each other. Infact it was Asma Bint Abu Bakr and Ali RA, who performed ghusl of Fatima RA, after her death. After her death, Ali RA got married to Umar RA's daughter. They all had good relations with each other. Years after, due to the influence of Jews, few hypocrites started up framing stories and fabricated them. This is what we believe in, after going thru our authentic records.  We respect all the companions of Prophet and hold honour for all of them.

that means no body else knew about this hadith...

 

I did explain you that its not necessary that all knew the sayings at the same time. When the differences of opinions arised of where Prophet {Pbuh} was to be buried,  Abu Bakr RA, solved the dispute easily, by narrating the hadiths.Now read this par t of hadith , "The (present) people (i.e. 'Uthman and his companions) said, "O chief of the believers! Give your verdict in their case and relieve each from) the other." 'Umar said, "Wait I beseech you, by Allah, by Whose Permission both the heaven and the earth stand fast! Do you know that Allah's Apostle said, 'We (Prophets) our properties are not to be inherited, and whatever we leave, is to be spent in charity,' and he said it about himself?" They (i.e. 'Uthman and his company) said, "He did say it." This shows that , even Umar RA and 'Uthman, 'Abdur-Rahman bin Auf, AzZubair and Sad (bin Abi Waqqas),also k new this.

 


I have already asked u to prove ure stance from Quran if u think they were on Haq!!!!...





br.minuteman; i will answer ure post soon..


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 25 September 2008 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by minuteman


 

   asda, while you are downplaying the senior most honored and beloved Companions of the prophet, may I ask you, who is your Imam now and where is he? because you need guidance and that is only possible from a guided one. Who is your Imam and the Imam of the Shias today? Where is he now?


 We had another Hadith (even though i do not run to any Hadith too much). That was an important information that "Allah will raise at the turn of every century, amongst this Ummah those who will revive (reform) their religion." Such people are called the reformers (Mujaddideen). They have been appearing amongst Muslims in every century. They did well and guided the Muslims and gave new life to the original religion.

 

 What says you and how is your religion being revived? Please give some details about your Imam sahib. Thanks.



hey man....instead of posting soo many questions, u cud have just asked: does ure Imam (a.s) exist?

well infact, to understand the concept of Imam Mehdi (a.s) one first has to understand the concept of Imamat...but i will try my best to directly make u understand this belief..

alhamd, thru the quran one can simply understand the existance of a Hujjat of Allah (s.w.t) on earth every time till the day of judgment...

u know that the Quran is a guidance for humanity...and it says to the believers:

Allah, Exalted, also said:

"O' you who believe! Obey Allah, and Obey Apostle and those from among you who are given authority." (Quran 4:59)

now it is clear that if u need help currently u cant go to rasulullah (a.s)...but who do we take help from.....

"And We assigned them Imams who guide by our authority and We have inspired in them the doing of good deeds." (Quran 21:73)

and Allah (s.w.t) has said:
"(O' Muhammad!) You are but a Warner,and for every community there exists a Guide.
(Quran 13:7)."

i wont do any commentry of the aayah above....u just look at the translation, and think ure self....does a hujjat of Allah (s.w.t) exist for us.....then the answer is YES!!

now who is the Hujjat of Allah (s.w.t)....we say its our Holy Imam Mehdi(a.s)..while the hujjat for sunnis is........?

The Messenger of Allah said: "The stars are amnesty for the inhabitants of the heavens, and if the stars go away (i.e., become non-existent), the inhabitants of the heavens will be destroyed. And my Ahlul-Bayt are amnesty for the inhabitants of the earth, and if my Ahlul-Bayt go away (i.e., all die), the inhabitants of the earth will be destroyed."
Sunni references:

Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p671, Tradition #1145
Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, p14
Manaqib Ahmad, and many more such as al-Tabarani, etc.
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p234
Musnad, Abu Ya'ala, on the authority of Salama Ibn Awka' in which the wording is: "The stars are amnesty for the inhabitants of the heavens, and my Ahlul-Bayt are the amnesty for my Ummah."


while there are many other Proofs that there has to exist an Imam for All times...i have presented a few of them...

now on ure questions one by one:


"who is your Imam now and where is he?because you need guidance and that is only possible from a guided one. Who is your Imam and the Imam of the Shias today? Where is he now?"
It is Imam Mehdi (a.s) and only Allah (s.w.t) knows where he(a.s) is.....we recieve guidence from him(a.s) in many ways...he(a.s) helps like a sun helps us even it is behind the clouds...and this is not a poetic answer...Our mujhtahideen have recieved guidence from him(a.s) from time to time...people have met him(a.s) and recieved guidence....he(a.s) is not non-functional....and is aware of everything going on....he(a.s) helps people from going astray....infact the world cannot exist if a Hujjat of Allah (s.w.t) is not present as is clear from the above ayahs...

u might ask can u meet ure Imam (a.s)??
i can, if i have reached a level of taqwa and ma'rifat...

then u might ask, if most of the shias cant meet the Imam (a.s) then wats the use of his existance?
while most ppl cant meet the Imam (a.s) we all are advised to move towards the biggest scholars of our time for help....as Imam Mehdi (a.s) has said in his last letter to Ali ibn Muhammad Sammari(r.a), the last special deputy: "...My scholars are "Hujjat" on u like I (a.s) is "Hujjat" on u..."..to understand deeply this concept it is important for the base of this truth is understood...and the base of this Imamat...i have tried to address both....but both topics needs loads of pages...i have just tried to summerise..

let remind u that i am not a scholar...there is a big difference between understanding and preaching, and this gap has to be filled with "power of literature"..it cud be power of speach or writing skills.....and i have tried to close this gap as much as possible....for surly i understand the topic quite well...



i hope this topic or any other topic which is irrelevent to the topic going on will not be touched in this thread again!!!!plzz...its a request...inshallah u will help me implement it....for any other discussion u r free to open a new thread..


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 3:08pm
salaams...just wanted to add 2 links wich discusses the topic we r on!!!..
http://www.abubakr.org/index.php
http://www.abubakr.org/fadak.php


Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 4:22pm
Assalamu alaikum.
For your beautiful discussions I just want to add that Abubakar and Umar were all descendants of Prophet Abraham through Quraysh or Fihr. Their grandfather was Ka'b. Abubakar was indirectly chosen by the holy Prophet to be the Khalifa of the Muslim Umma for he lead the prayer during the illness of the holy Prophet. They used this gesture as an argument that they should appoint him as their leader and this concurred with the functions of the Khalifa in leading the Umma in prayers. Whatever happened between the Sahabas especially those who lead the Umma is a lesson to us. Those who read extensively the conflict betwen Mu'awiya and Ali would understand this. Thus why the holy Prophet said we should not talk bad about them. The final judge is Allah. We have to be very careful for there are some of the Muslims who not understanding Islam and want to make fatwa to be known. I always find their history amusing and interesting. They never claimed to know everything. Their's is mutual consultation and sticking to what they know and believe to be the correct interpretation of the Sunna. We should not distinguish betwen them but we should praise them according to their ability to uphold the Sunna. Yes, Ali was a very brave Sahaba because he belonged to the Banu Makhzum from his mother, the warriors of Quraysh. Khalid bin Walid and Umar and the rest of the Banu Makhzum were fierce in battle field. Remember the valour of Ja'afar bin Abi Talib during the battle of Mu'ta. Umar and Ali have left an indelible history for us to copy. Umar was so feared that no one could talk. Ali fought againt arrogant and ignorant people and used his position as a Quraysh and believer to quell them. I am with them as for any Muslim to succedd as a Khalifa he must be like them. NO COMPROMISE! MUHAMMAD IS THE ONLY AUTHORITY! NO MERCY FOR THE ARROGANT AND TROUBLE MAKERS.
Friendship. 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 30 September 2008 at 4:24am
MM and SH
you bro's are doing great handling this  just Virus just fine!
Let me add my two cents!
Originally posted by asda


I invite u to the school of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) and fight with Imam Ali (a.s) in the Battle of Siffin and the battle of Jamal....
Ali was great fighter but he was a poor administrator and statesman, his handling of Uthman's assassination was awful>- getting on to Saffin & Jammal just ruined the chances of peace for the Ummah for ever!

What would have cost to get all the attackers on Uthman arrested and tried for their crimes and punished? The answer >practically nothing cuz it was not a secret who were involved! So what was the net result his own murder at the hands of same people he let go but Muawiya escaped by oversleeping and not going to the Jamia Mosque! I have studied the subject for so long that I almost became a Shia myself for the company I kept! Then it occured to me hey look at the whole picture than the belly aching propaganda of the sly Shias! They over sold the hupothsis like the Paul sold the make belief Passion of Jesus! Just look around we have moronic Shias the likes Alwites who deified Ali! That killer group helped by the enemies of Islam came through the back doors of Bathism by Xtian Mike Aflaq's controlling a Sunni country of Syria!
Come on guy get real

I invite u to stand beside the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) on their claims of fidak.
Another dumb point of blithering!
i Invite u to be with the ones who wanted the prophet (a.s) to write his will when he wanted pen and paper..
(thats just the begining) You knucklehead- he(s) couldn't write; it would be enough to announce it!
I have been friends with the shias and got burned big time, you are sly backstabbers!
i invite u to stay away from those who had hurt Fatima (a.s), the beloved doughter of the prophet (a.s)..
Shame on the people who are have been the traitors to the Muslim Ummah all along the history! Read The Crusades for the mirror!
i invite u to stay away from those who did not let Prophet Muhammad (a.s) write his will...
He(s) did warn about the folks like you who will bring the destruction land of Euphrates and it happening in front of our eyes through collaboration with the enemy! It has also damaged the attacking crusaders' economy and the world can see it as described by the Prophet(s)
i invite u to stay away from those who went against the orders of the Prophet Muhammad (a.s) and brought back Marwan bin Hakam's family back when the Prophet (a.s) had exiled them.....
Well it is meaningless point for the present! I would pray that you vipers stay away from the trampled Ummah of the Prophet(s) Your types took reigns of a country like Pakistan and made a mess of it and it is still onging!
i invite u stay away from the killers of Ammar bin Yaasir
You need to see a shrink!
i invite u to stay Away from the killers of Imam Hussain (a.s)..
Could he not be little patient like his brother Hassan and he could easily been elected Caliph after the passing of YazidQuestion
He made a blunder by traveling  toward untrustworthy Kofian so called instigators in defiance of the administration and that was a no no in that Arab tribal climate! An utter lack of wisdom and foresight!
And then Jewish Hassan bin Sabbah created this Fitnah of Shian-e- Ali! They have been willing agents royal of the colonialism and neocolonialism!
Just bad news all around! WHy is that every time the Anglo Americans put forces in the ME the shias have political gains and the Sunnis populations are being attacked! And this is going on for more than a century>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 30 September 2008 at 6:33am
to sign*...
and these are sort of ppl who r doing their best to spread hate...

infact dont u see,that wen it comes to ahle bayt(a.s) vs someone......u prefer taking the side of the "someone"....mu'awiah....yazid...talha....zubair....

while the Prophet (a.s) has said:
Ali is with truth, and truth is with Ali
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi

anybody against truth, is falsehood...a simple fact...

"Loving Ali is believing, and hating him is hypocrisy".
Ref.: i) Sahih Muslim, Vol.1, p.61.
       ii) Sunan al-Nisai, Vol. 6,P. 117.
       iii) Sahih al Tirmidhi, Vol. 8, P.306.


the names of Hypocrites are right in front of u...


Abu Huraira narrated:

     The Prophet (PBUH) looked toward Ali, Hasan, Husain, and Fatimah (AS),
     and then said: "I am in war with those who will fight you, and in
     peace with those who are peaceful to you."

Sunni references:
(1) Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p699
(2) Sunan Ibn Majah, v1, p52
(3) Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p767, Tradition #1350
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p149
(5) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p169
(6) al-Kabir, by al-Tabarani, v3, p30, also in al-Awsat
(7) Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Ibani, v2, p17
(8) Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v7, p137
(9) Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p144
(10) Talkhis, by al-Dhahabi, v3, p149
(11) Dhakha'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p25
(12) Mishkat al-Masabih, by Khatib al-Tabrizi, English Version, Tdadition #6145

i can go on and on in saying about the true merits of Ahle Bayt.....but in order to understand the truth, u have to be unbiased....


[QOUTE]he was a poor administrator and statesman[/QUOTE]

if this is poor administration, then what do u say about umar's administration wen he said:
"If there was not Ali, Umar would have perished"
Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p647, Tradition #1100' al-Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, v3, p39; Manaqib, by al-Khawarizmi, p48; al-Riyadh al Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v2, p194; Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p171

so atleast ure second caliph accepts the fact that Imam Ali(a.s)'s decisions were better than his own...so if Imam Ali (a.s) decisions were "poor" as u say...then obviosly the decisions of umar are................


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 30 September 2008 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by asda

to sign*...
and these are sort of ppl who r doing their best to spread hate...
You want to see hatred go to Iran where the assassination of Umar and a shrine of the Persian assassin is found; or go to the the Shia meetings!

Just go on the facts than who has more hate it the Shias who do have all the hate speeches in their gatherings of Muharram( Mujalas) with fever pitched environment for the ignorant masses even a place like the US. I thought with migration to the west they may clean up the act but still the same stinking Imambaras and same sick  mentality! I saw the ugliness so close that I felt like puking my gutts out!
They invite the professional whiners called Zakirs from their home countries with questionable types cuz I saw these characters up close! They almost wind the morons mostly the migrants from the subcontinent like robots and seeing the drama of crying adults is just pathetic! I knew some of the attendees personally who rarely would do salat or other things requird but going to this muharram hue and cry would get them the redemption!LOL
Even if they intermarried with the European crowd they are still brain washing their kids in the same crapola! It is appaling just like the Catholics passions!
A question for you Mr. knowitall:
Can you explain how do you keep using the same blistering hot weather story without water of Karbala of 10th of Muharram BTW which  for some years falls in the middle of freezing cold months gatherings in North America!
You know a self flagellation will freeze your booty in the subfreezing tempretures procession on the street! And doing in heated hall would be a joke! Just think about it! It might be OK for the subcontinent or ME not here!
Just a suggestion to make it simple for you morons :
Pick the solar date and fix it  on your calender--- the Muharram 10 64 AH would be September 7--- how do you  like it? 
 


infact dont u see,that wen it comes to ahle bayt(a.s) vs someone......u prefer taking the side of the "someone"....mu'awiah....yazid...talha....zubair....

My dear simpleton friend I am neutral here the things I just want keep spade as spade and not go over board in hyperbole period! The Xtians have done that with their religion so have you with yours!
This whole concept being partisans of Ali or Muawiah  has no basis in true Islam!
There are no partisans of Yazid preaching about what are you talking about?
Your concept of Passion of Hussain in Shiaism is so close to Catholicism's passion of Christ that it is comical from where I have seen things!

while the Prophet (a.s) has said:
Ali is with truth, and truth is with Ali
Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi
Start with Quraan and then go with facts! The doggone Persians after losing the Empire used their woman to water down the true religion of Islam!
 And all those who were involved with that got on the short end of the stick!
My brother is  even today married to a Persain woman and both of them have no religion she bad mouths the Prophet and all that we don't bring the religion up at the family dinners! What would you know if you want know the truth!

anybody against truth, is falsehood...a simple fact...
You forget all the Caliphs were the sheriffs of Mecca even before the advent of Revelations and they were all related to the Prophet(s) so discussing their business at our level is the height of st**idity and naivete but the insertion of the Persian minds into this has just thrown this calculus out of kilter!
"Loving Ali is believing, and hating him is hypocrisy".
Ref.: i) Sahih Muslim, Vol.1, p.61.
       ii) Sunan al-Nisai, Vol. 6,P. 117.
       iii) Sahih al Tirmidhi, Vol. 8, P.306.
Ali had a role but that was based on the seniority and certain protocol! Every body is supposed to love Ali but at the same time did The Prophet(s) say to bad mouth others?

the names of Hypocrites are right in front of u...


Abu Huraira narrated:

     The Prophet (PBUH) looked toward Ali, Hasan, Husain, and Fatimah (AS),
     and then said: "I am in war with those who will fight you, and in
     peace with those who are peaceful to you."
I have no issue here they were all loved and their names are part of the Friday Khutba!

i can go on and on in saying about the true merits of Ahle Bayt.....but in order to understand the truth, u have to be unbiased....


[QOUTE]he was a poor administrator and statesman


if this is poor administration, then what do u say about umar's administration wen he said:
"If there was not Ali, Umar would have perished"

so atleast ure second caliph accepts the fact that Imam Ali(a.s)'s decisions were better than his own...so if Imam Ali (a.s) decisions were "poor" as u say...then obviosly the decisions of umar are..............
I know he was a great consultant, jurist and fighter but being put in a elective competition the majority thought the seniors had a better hand at the till!
IMHO he should not have taken the Caliph's job after the murder of Uthman, it had crossed the threshold of Islamic law and order. The murder of Umar was one thing that the assasin was not one of them but in case of Uthman's that was the 
breakdown of respect and decency! And expecting things will settle down without apprehending the perpettrators and handing down of the verdict that was Ali's  forte being a jurist is just beyond me. The whole thing did happen in a way that did nobody good and that tradition still goes on!
 

Well finally what Umar accomplished is a hallmark of an achievement in serving  the Caliphate that has been recognized by even Michael Hart in his book "the 100" for his brilliant leadership of the new nation even ahead of Ashoka, Thomas Jefferson, Charlemagne and Julius Caesar and lot of others!! And of course the list is headed by our dear prophet being on the top! And there is no other Muslim happens to found in there!
[/QUOTE]

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 1:48am
ure post reflects ure akhlaq and how much have u understood the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (a.s)...

infact,if u dont know...we r not taught hatred at all...i have attended several imambargah's...and heard many maulana's and zakirs....infact there is defference on how u take it....i mean if we discuss topics like fidak and merits of Maula Ali (a.s) and other such stuff....u will surly not like it...

well again u have been biased in ure answer...and in ure frustration, u have proved nothing....i cant blame u for not having sufficient answers...and for a fact, u can do ure best to inflame me...inshallah u will fail....

u have done ure best in being naive in ure reply in defending those ppl u call sahaba....

infact if u truly see, i have not bad mouthed anybody at all....its u who have just shown ure failed akhlaq....

i hope such filth is not repeated, or else u will be responsible for spoiling the peace in this forum...

and about the book, "100 most..." by a non-muslim....lol....bee happppeeeee a non muslim has rated our Prophet (a.s)....woohooo....

well u knw wat....his opinions mean NOTHING AT ALL...cuz rasool's status does not differ and inch with his work....Rasoolullah (a.s) was the great and the greatest......

and about umar in that list....u can party out about him being above asoka and others zaalims.....but u also forgot he is below some zalims like HITLER GENGES KHAN, Alexander, Napolean...so now wat do u say???...alhamd. no other muslim is not there.....


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 4:07am
Br. Friendship

it is hard to rid out history from events like fidak, jamal, siffin, the zulm done to some good companions and other such stuff after the Prophet (a.s) died....infact if u see, the Ahlul Bayt (a.s) was left alone....while the Prophet (a.s) had said that he has left Quran and Ahle Bayt for his ummah in his last speach....but still we see ppl biased against them....May Allah (s.w.t) guide all...

actually it is hard to imagine how can leading prayers be a sign of being a desendant....can u please highlight on that..
i cant remember the name of the person, but someone else was leading the prayers wen umar was in his last days...who dint become the ruler....we thus have such examples...
infact, abu bakr shud not have been there in the 1st place...they shud have been in the army of usamah...


i disagree with u that Prophet Muhammad (a.s) is the ONLY athority....lets not forget QURAN...and his ITRAT..and we have to follow all of these...in order to be a successful muslim...

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim as well as many other sources that:

Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: "O' people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance... The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. (three times)."
Sunni Reference:

Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the virtues of Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1873, Tradition #36.
And many others such as Sahih al-Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad (see below).
For the English version of Sahih Muslim, see Chapter CMXCVI, v4, p1286, Tradition #5920



Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 6:51am
Brother Asda.
From your write ups, you know about the history of Islam. I am not a shit'ite and I do not believe in sectarianism. I am a Muslim. I understand Ali bin Abi Talib as a believer and a follower of Muhammad Rasulullah. He has two positions in Islam. People do not understand his role according to the Quraysh customs- the one closest to a clan. The holy Prophet had no male child and Ali happened to be the one among the sons of Abi Talib to be under his guardianship due to impoverishment of Abu Talib. ja'afar was 15 years old and stayed with Al-Abbas. Abu Lahab the riches was stingy. Harith died very early. Abdullah, Abu Talib and Harith with I think 8 females were full brothers. So Ali was the closes of the Propehts cousins. Ibn Abbas was yet to be born. Abdullah bin Umar was a distant cousin. So Ali took the important position of representing the holy Propeht according to their customs but not according to Islam because Allah said, "Fastabiqul khayrat". We are not allowed to say one is superior to the other as exemplied by Allah in Sura Baqra:253, Zukhruf:32. The Sahabas were appointed to positions by the holy Prophet according to their knowledge and the requirement in that position.We are all to race with one another to get the best from Allah buy following the Sunna of the holy Prophet.  Ali was asked if the holy Prophet gave them a special position above others. he said, "No! except from what is betwen the two leaves". Ali's eloqunce was genetic and induced by his closeness to the holy Prophet. His father was a great poet. The most eloquent of the Quraysh was the holy Prophet. So Ali was bound to be eloquent as a proof that he stayed with the holy Prophet and not with Abu jahl (Abu Hakam). Ali's grandmother was from the famous Banu Makhzum tribe and so he must be a warrior, like Khalid bin walid, Ja'afar bin Abi Talib, Umar, Abu Jahl, Aqil bin Abi Talib (I think matryed during the battle of Yarmuk or Qaddisiyya). The Quraysh Muhajiruns and his cousins alive at that period (death of Uthman) were all younger than Ali or were his contemporaries. Ali's confrontation was not primarily with the Sahabas, but with the young illiterate and over zealous Muslims from Iraq, Egypt, Syria and the neighbouring tribes who were yet to understand the Sunna.  They took the advantage of the Pilgrimage when few Sahabas were in Madina and launched their assault. Did they not accuse Ali of conspiracy? What could he have done at that time?.
On the question of Ahl bayt, we must seperate between the Ahl bayt according to Arab customs and Ahyl bayt that covers all Muslims. Hasan and Husayn were the grandchildren of the holy Prophet from their mothers side. The Sunna was clear on what to do with them after the death of their father or mother. But we inherit from the father and not mother like the Children of Israel. Why then should we not treat the rest of Ali's children on the same level? The maltreatment they received was a history and was not allowed by the Shari'a. So we have nothing to do with that. Allah will pay them in full. I do not see anywhere in the Qur'an where leadership is to be based on inheritance. The Prophets of the Children of Israel were appointed by Allah on fear of Allah and their knowledge but not on any other criteria. We should not quesion why Allah choose Prophets from them. If Ali was chosen as the Khalifa at that time, I believed that was the Sunna and what they understood from the holy Prophet. We were not there! The election of Abubakar who was not technically a Quraysh proved that the Sunna has nothing to do with personal desires or inheritance etc. It is purely on merit. Look, I have one experience! I have a grandchild who comes to disturbs me while praying in the same manner described Hasan and Husayn were doing. But my granddaughter does not come to disturb me neither does she disturbs her grandmother. So please let us respect history and the Sunna!
But what are we doing today? Who among the Muslim leaders today is elected on the criteria set up by the Qur'an and the Sunna or anything resembling the election of Abubakar or Ali?  Is it the Sunna that it is one of prerequisites of the leader of the Muslim Umma to be leading them in prayer? Why should we go to the Ka'ba and be lead in prayers by not our respective Political leaders, but by only thsoe who are not Ahl hal wal aqd?    
Please let us forget about Usbiyya and stick to what is clear. Let us remember what Ali told ibn Abbas when he sent him to meet those confronting him (called the Khawarij), "Discuss with them according to the Sunna, for the Qur'an has may interpretations". Those who do not know the Sunna of the holy Prophet in selecting leaders for the Umma, should please endeavour to know. Let us be practically oriented and not theoreticians! I always remeber Umar ibn Khattab and Ai bn Abi Talib for the work they did to Islam. But that does not mean that I do not remember Abubakar. I remember Abubakr wheneer i am reading Surat baqara in Subh prayer and Umar when reading Sura Yusuf. Islam now is need of warriors not those who are ready to comprise the Sunna for worldy positions!
Friendship 


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 02 October 2008 at 1:42am
Brother Friendship:
Jazakalla for such an excellent note on the subject, Thanks



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 10:42am



Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 15 October 2008 at 10:46am
Salaams..

i would just like to add the beautiful words of H.Fatima (a.s), also known as the Khutba of Fidak.




'Praise be to Allah for that which He bestowed (upon us); And thanks be to Him for all that which He inspired; and commended in His Name for that which He Provided: Form prevalent favors which He created, And abundant benefactions which He offered and perfect grants which He presented; (such benefactions) that their number is much too plentiful to compute; Bounties too vast to measure; Their limit was too distant to realize; He recommended to them (His creatures) to gain more (of His benefaction) by being grateful for their continuity; He ordained Himself praiseworthy by giving generously to His creatures; I bear witness that there is no God but Allah Who is One without partner, a statement which sincere devotion is made to be its interpretation; hearts guarantee its con­tinuation, and illuminated in the minds is its sensibility. He Who can not be perceived with vision; neither be described with tongues; nor can imagination surround His state.



He originated things but not from anything that existed be­fore them, and created them with­out examples to follow. Rather, He created them with His might and dispersed them according to His will; not for a need did He create them; nor for a benefit (for Him) did He shape them, But to establish His wisdom, Bring attention to His obedi­ence, manifest His might, lead His creatures to humbly vene­rate Him, and to exalt His decrees. He then made the reward for His obedience, and punishment for his dis­obedience, so as to protect His creatures from His Wrath and amass them into His Paradise.



I too bear witness that my Father, Muhammad, is His Slave and Messenger, Whom He chose prior to sending him, named him before sending him; when creatures were still concealed in that which was transcendental, guarded from that which was appalling, and associated with the termination and nonexistence. For Allah the Exalted knew that which was to follow, comprehended that which will come to pass, And realized the place of every event. Allah has sent him (Muhammad) as perfection for His commands, a resolution to accomplish His rule, and an implementation of the decrees of His Mercy. So he found the nations to vary in their faiths; Obsessed by their fires, Worshipping their idols, And denying Allah despite their knowledge of Him. Therefore, Allah illuminated their darkness with my Father, Muhammad, uncovered obscurity from their hearts, and cleared the clouds from their insights. He revealed guidance among the people; So he delivered them from being led astray, led them away from misguidance, guided them to the proper religion, and called them to the straight path.



Allah then chose to recall him back in mercy, love and pre­ference. So, Muhammad is in comfort from the burden of this world, he is surrounded with devoted angels, the satisfaction of the Merciful Lord, and the nearness of the powerful King.

So may the praise of Allah be upon my Father, His Prophet, Trusted one, the chosen one

from among His creatures, and His sincere friend, and may peace and blessings of

Allah be upon him.'



Fatima (A) then turned to the crowd and said:



'Surely you are Allah's slaves at His command Prohibition; You are the bearers of His religion and revelation; You are Allah's trusted ones with yourselves; and His messengers to the nations. Amongst you does He have righteous authority; A covenant He brought unto you, and an heir He left to guard you; That is The eloquent book of Allah; The truthful Quran; The brilliant light; The shining beam; Its insights are indisputable; Its secrets are revealed; Its indications are manifest; and its followers are blessed by it. (The Quran) leads its adherents to goodwill; and Hearing it leads to salvation; with it are the bright divine authorities achieved, His manifest determination acquired, His prohibited decrees avoided; His manifest evidence recognized; His satisfying proofs made apparent, His permissions granted, and His laws written.



So Allah made belief to be purification for you from poly­theism.

He made Prayer, An exaltation for you from conceit.

Alms -A purification for the soul and a (cause of) growth in subsistence.

Fasting an implantation of devotion.

Pilgrimage -A construction of religion.

Justice -A harmony of the hearts;

obeying us (Ahlul-Bayt)­Management of the nation.

Our leadership (Ahlul-Bayt), Safeguard from disunity.

Jihad (struggle)­ a strengthening of Islam.

Patience -A helping course for deserving (divine) reward.

Ordering goodness (Amr Bil Maruf)­ Public welfare.

Kindness to the parents­ A safeguard from wrath.

Maintaining close relations with one's kin -A cause for a longer life and multiplying the number of descend­ants.

Retaliation (Qesas)-For sparing blood (souls).

Fulfillment of vows-subjecting oneself to mercy.

Completion of weights and measures -A cause for preventing the neglect of others' rights. Forbiddance of drinking wines an exaltation from atrocity.

Avoiding slander -A veil from curse.

Abandoning theft-a reason for deserving chastity.

Allah has also prohibited polytheism so that one can devote himself to His Lordship.



Therefore; Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam;

Obey Allah in that which He has commanded you to do and that which He has forbidden, for surely those truly fear among His servants, who have knowledge.'



Lady Fatima Zahra (A) then added:



'O People! Be informed that I am Fatima, and my father is Muhammad I say that repeatedly and initiate it continually; I say not what I say mistakenly, nor do I do what I do aimlessly.



Now hath come unto you an Apostle from amongst yourselves; It grieves him that you should perish; Ardently anxious is he over you; To the believers he is most kind and merciful. Thus, if you identify and recog­nize him, you shall realize that he is my father and not the father of any of your women; the brother of my cousin (Ali (A)) rather than any of your men. What an excellent identity he was, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his descendants Thus, he propagated the Message, by coming out openly with the warning, and while inclined away from the path of the polytheists, (whom he) struck their strength and seized their throats, while he invited (all) to the way of his Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching He destroyed idols, and defeated heroes, until their group fled and turned their backs. So night revealed its dawn; righteousness uncovered its genuineness; the voice of the religious authority spoke out loud; the evil discords were silenced; The crown of hypocrisy was diminished; the tightening of infidelity and desertion were untied,



So you spoke the statement of devotion amongst a band of starved ones; and you were

on the edge of a hole of fire;(you were) the drink of the thirsty one; the opportunity of the desiring one; the fire brand of him who passes in haste; the step for feet; you used to drink from the water gathered on roads; eat jerked meat. (Lady Fatima (A) was stating their lowly situation before Islam) You were despised outcasts always in fear of abduction from those around you. Yet, Allah rescued you through my father, Muhammad after much ado, and after he was confronted by mighty men, the Arab beasts, and the demons of the people of the Book Who, whenever they ignited the fire of war, Allah extinguished it; and whenever the thorn of the devil appeared, or a mouth of the polytheists opened wide in defiance, he would strike its discords with his brother (Ali, (A)), who comes not back until he treads its wing with the sole of his feet, and extinguishes its flames with his sword. (Ali is) diligent in Allah's affair, near to the Messenger of Allah, A master among Allah's worshippers, setting to work briskly, sincere in his advice, earnest and exerting himself (in service to Islam); While you were calm, gay, and feeling safe in your comfort­able lives, waiting for us to meet disasters, awaiting the spread of news, you fell back during every battle, and took to your heels at times of fighting. Yet, When Allah chose His Prophet from the dwell of His prophets, and the abode of His sincere (servants); The thorns of hypocrisy appeared on you, the garment of faith became worn out, The misguided ignorant(s) spoke out, the sluggish ignorant came to the front and brayed. The he camel of the vain wiggled his tail in your courtyards and the your courtyards and the Devil stuck his head from its place of hiding and called upon you, he found you respon­sive to his invitation, and observing his deceits.



He then aroused you and found you quick (to answer him), and invited you to wrath, therefore; you branded other than your camels and proceeded to other than your drinking places. Then while the era of the Prophet was still near, the gash was still wide, the scar had not yet healed, and the Messenger was not yet buried. A (quick) undertaking as you claimed, aimed at preventing discord (trial), Surely, they have fallen into trial already! And indeed Hell surrounds the unbelievers. How preposterous! What an idea!

What a falsehood! For Allah's Book is still amongst you, its affairs are apparent; its rules are manifest; its signs are dazzling; its restrictions are visible, and its commands are evident. Yet, indeed you have casted it behind your backs! What! Do you detest it? Or according to something else you wish to rule? Evil would be the exchange for the wrongdoers! And if anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), it never will it be accepted from him; And in the hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost. Surely you have not waited until its stampede seized, and it became obedient. You then started arousing its flames, instigating its coal, complying with the call of the misled devil, quenching the light of the manifest reli­gion, and extinguished the light of the sincere Prophet. You concealed sips on froth and proceeded towards his (the Prophet) kin and children in swamps and forests (meaning you plot against them in deceitful ways), but we are patient with you as if we are being notched with knives and stung by spearheads in our abdomens, Yet-now you claim that there is not inheritance for us! What! "Do they then seek after a judgment of (the Days of)ignorance? But How, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah? Don't you know? Yes, indeed it is obvious to you that I am his daughter.



O Muslims! Will my inheritance be usurped? O son of Abu Quhafa! Where is it in the Book of Allah that you inherit your father and I do not inherit mine? Surely you have come up with an unprecedented thing. Do you intentionally abandon the Book of Allah and cast it behind your back? Do you not read where it says: And Sulaiman inherited Dawood'?



And when it narrates the story of Zakariya and says: `So give me an heir as from thyself (One that) will inherit me, and inherit the posterity of Yaqoob' And: `But kindred by hood have prior rights against each other in the Book of Allah'



And: Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children's (inheritance) to the male, a portion equal to that of two females' And, If he leaves any goods, that he make a bequest to parents and next of kin, according to reasonable usage; this is due from the pious ones.' You claim that I have no share! And that I do not inherit my father! What! Did Allah reveal a (Quranic) verse regarding you, from which He excluded my father? Or do you say: `These (Fatima and her father) are the people of two faiths, they do not inherit each other?!' Are we not, me and my father, a people adhering to one faith? Or is it that you have more knowledge about the specifi­cations and generalizations of the Quran than my father and my cousin (Imam Ali)? So, here you are! Take it! (Ready with) its nose rope and saddled! But if shall encounter you on the Day of Gathering; (thus) what a wonder­ful judge is Allah, a claimant is Muhammad, and a day is the Day of Rising. At the time of the Hour shall the wrongdoers lose; and it shall not benefit you to regret (your actions) then! For every Message, there is a time limit; and soon shall ye know who will be inflicted with torture that will humiliate him, and who will be confronted by an everlasting punishment. (Fatima then turned towards the Ansars and said:) O you people of intellect! The strong supporters of the nation! And those who embraced Islam; What is this short-coming in defending my right? And what is this slumber (while you see) injustice (being done toward me)? Did not the Messenger of Allah, my father, used to say: A man is upheld (remembered) by his children'? O how quick have you violated (his orders)?! How soon have you plotted against us? But you still are capable (of helping me in) my attempt, and powerful (to help me) in that which I request and (in) my pursuit (of it). Or do you say: "Muhammad has perished;"



Surely this is a great calamity; Its damage is excessive its injury is great, Its wound (is much too deep) to heal.



The Earth became darkened with his departure; the stars eclipsed for his calamity; hopes were seized; mountains submitted; sanctity was violated, and holiness was encroached upon after his death. Therefore, this, by Allah, is the great affliction, and the grand calamity; there is not an affliction-which is the like of it; nor will there be a sudden misfortune (as surprising as this).



The Book of Allah-excellent in praising him-announced in the courtyards (of your houses) in the place where you spend your evenings and mornings; A call, A cry, A recitation, and (verses) in order. It had previously came upon His (Allah's) Prophets and Messengers; (for it is) A decree final, and a pre­destination fulfilled: "Muhammad is not but an Apostle: Many were the apostles that passed away before him. If he died or was slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude." O you people of reflection; will I be usurped the inheritance of my father while you hear and see me?! (And while) You are sitting and gathered around me? You hear my call, and are included in the (news of the) affair? (But) You are numerous and well equipped! (You have) the means and the power, and the weapons and the shields. Yet, the call reaches you but you do not answer; the cry comes to you but you do not come to help? (This) While you are characterized by struggle, known for goodness and welfare, the selected group (which was chosen), and the best ones chosen by the Messenger for us, Ahlul-Bayt. You fought the Arabs, bore with pain and exhaustion, struggled against the nations, and resisted their heroes. We were still, so were you in ordering you, and you in obeying us. So that Islam became triumphant, the accomplishment of the days came near, the fort of polytheism was subjected, the outburst of was subjected, the outburst of infidelity calmed down, and the system of religion was well-ordered. Thus, (why have you) become con­fused after clearness? Conceal matters after announcing them? Turned on your heels after daring? Associated (others with Allah) after believing? Will you not fight people who violated their oaths? Plotted to expel the Apostle and became aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if you believe!



Nevertheless, I see that you are inclined to easy living; dismissed he who is more worthy of guardianship (Ali (A)); You secluded yourselves with meekness and dismissed that which you accepted. Yet, if you show ingratitude, ye and all on earth together, yet, Allah free of all wants, worthy of all praise. Surely I have said all that I have said with full knowledge that you intent to forsake me, and knowing the betrayal that your hearts sensed. But it is the state of soul, the effusion of fury, the dissemination of (what is) the chest and the presentation of the proof. Hence, Here it is! Bag it (leadership and) put it on the back of an ill she­ camel, which has a thin hump with everlasting grace, marked with the wrath of Allah, and the blame of ever (which leads to) the Fire of (the wrath of Allah kindled (to a blaze), that which doth mount (right) to the hearts; For, Allah witnesses what you do, and soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take! And I am the daughter of a warner (the Prophet) to you against a severe punishment. So, act and so will we, and wait, and we shall wait.'

(The end of Lady Fatima's speech.)



It appears from recorded historical events, that Lady Fatima (A) was successful at the beginning in persuading Abu Bakr to hand back Fadak to her; listen to part of a speech he (according to some historians) delivered after hearing Fatima's speech. He said:



"O daughter of the Messenger of Allah... Surely the Prophet is your father, not anyone else's, the brother of your husband, not any other man's; he surely preferred him over all his friends and (Ali) supported him in every important matter, no one loves you save the lucky and no one hates you save the wretched. You are the blessed progeny of Allah's Messenger, the chosen ones, our guides to goodness our path to Paradise, and you-the best of women-and the daughter of the best of prophets, truthful is your sayings, excelling in reason. You shall not be driven back from your right...But I surely heard your father

saying: `We the, group of prophets do not inherit, nor are we inherited Yet, this is my situation and property, it is yours (if you wish); it shall not be concealed from you, nor will it be stored away from you. You are the Mistress of your father's nation, and the blessed tree of your descendants. Your property shall not be usurped against your will nor can your name be defamed. Your judgment shall be executed in all that which I possess. This, do you think that I violate your father's (will)?"



Fatima (a.s) then refuted Abu Bakr's claim that the Prophet had stated that prophets cannot be inherited, and said:



"Glory be to Allah!! Surely Allah's Messenger did not abandon Allah's Book nor did he violate His commands. Rather, he followed its decrees and adhered to its chapters. So do you unite with treachery justifying your acts with fabrications? Indeed this-after his departure-is similar to the disasters which were plotted against him during his lifetime. But behold! This is Allah's Book, a just judge and a decisive speaker, saying:

`One that will (truly) inherit Me, and inherit the posterity of Yaqub,' (19:6)



and



'And Sulaiman inherited Dawood.' (27: 16)



Thus, He (Glory be to Him) made clear that which He made share of all heirs, decreed from the amounts of inheritance, allowed for males and females, and eradicated all doubts and ambiguities (pertaining to this issue which existed with the) bygones.



Nay!



But your minds have made up a tale (that may pass) with you, but (for me) patience is most fitting against that which ye assert; it is Allah (alone) whose help can be sought."


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 5:15pm
Sounds like a very eloquent khutba!
Where did you C&P'd from?
Who recorded it?
What is the purpose of posting it here?
Pitting Abu Bkr ra against  Fatima ra in this day and age when the Muslims are struggling under the neocolonialism is just is day late and dollar short!

As in the legal sense the statute of limitations expired long long time ago and continuing this blame game is utterly pathetic as if Abu Bkr pocketed the proceeds from Fidk!
Your logic is so convoluted you forget that Abu Bakr was Prophets' father in law and he had other widows left behind, if there was distribution of his inheritance Fatima would not be the only recipient!
Caliph Umar was also his Father in law so you guys just make as if these sahabas were from other planets!
Calif Uthman was a son in law!
Caliph Muawiyah was a brother in law!
If there is a family feud it is advisable for the outsider to stay away!
The problem is the Shiit have no game but the blame game and that will not get you anywhere! It is a divisive thinking sort of byproduct of living in some sort of bondage!
The Muslims' resources worth billions of have been robbed or wasted by the by the conflicts created by the shiit colluding with the enemies in your neighborhood; so you may be looking for a justification for all that monkey business! Aren't you?
 


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 11:45am
i would refrain from the language u speak, and hope Allah (s.w.t) give u hidaayah...

the reason for posting the beautiful sermon is for further knowledge of H.Fatima's stance...

if abu bakr was correct in his stance of fidak...please prove his stance from QURAN that "Prophets (a.s) dont leave inheiritence!!!"


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 4:35pm
Originally posted by asda

i would refrain from the language u speak, and hope Allah (s.w.t) give u hidaayah...


Man are you some preposterous moron, what is your issue here?
It is only you who knows the truth! How juvenile can you get?
You live in a place that is totally screwed up with corruption of all kinds and come here to show the path!
In your place you can't even get clean water  and food what are you talking about?

Originally posted by asda

the reason for posting the beautiful sermon is for further knowledge of H.Fatima's stance...

Why do you obfuscate and carry the grudge?
You haven't told us the source & who recorded it ?
It seems just shii prop!

Originally posted by asda

if abu bakr was correct in his stance of fidak...please prove his stance from QURAN that "Prophets (a.s) dont leave inheiritence!!!"

Did you forget that Prophet refused to give a slave to BB Fatima when she requested one from the prisoners? Why

You need to stop thsi propaganda against the man who gave all of his wealth for welfare of the Ummah!

You want to talk about the inheritance, then how can you exclude all the widows?





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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: asda
Date Posted: 23 October 2008 at 8:40am
lol...u r trying ure best....to know where i live.....and according to u i dont get pure water and food......hmmm...dats news to me....now after thinking all dat U WILL BE SURPRIZED WEN U COME TO KNOW WHERE I LIVE....HAHAHAHAHA..... no clean water...no clean food....
hint: da food and water is one of the cleanest and halal at country i live....tho its being ruled by zaalims..

millions others know the truth as well..look out man..

u can see da following references to knw who reported this sermon:

- Seerah al Halabiyah, vol 3 p 391 -> 400
- Fadak in History, Murtaza Muttaheri, p 85
- Fatimah the Gracious, Abu Muhammad Ordoni, 217 -> 240


i am not excluding the widows of their rights...

but still u have not yet proved abu bakr's stance from quran!!!!! is der some reason???

ure (bad)words show how much u love Allah (s.w.t) and his Prophet (s.a.w)....and what a shame u r for ure own community....do u think the Prophet (s.a.w) would like a person who uses suceh language and CLEARLY OPPOSES THE QURAN...Please read Surah Hujaraat, surah number 49, Aayat number 11...

http://www.alketab.com/quran_05.asp?nPage=702%5b/IMG - http://www.alketab.com/quran_05.asp?nPage=702

hope this might help...if not...then ure case is surly with the zaalimeen....(i am not saying dat...Quran does!!)



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