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A muslimah in frustration

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Culture & Community
Forum Name: Groups – Women (Sisters)
Forum Discription: Groups – Women (Sisters)
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12726
Printed Date: 21 October 2014 at 8:31pm


Topic: A muslimah in frustration
Posted By: seekshidayath
Subject: A muslimah in frustration
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 7:08pm
As'Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,
 
I did read sister {Shasta'aunt} at an other section replying me.
 
"Anyways Angel, women in Islam are given maximum freedom, which they can enjoy to the fullest. But if they try to cross them, they not only contaminate themselves, but also the whole society. We did read, how well do other religions treat women . Show me one single religion, which gives her such freedom.
 
Shasta'a aunt, a muslim woman can come out if there is necessity. But again if she defines her own definition of necessity, it may be tough again. Unless, the basic eminities are not met, she can go out for jobs."
 
If Muslim women have maximum freedom, which I personally believe they do, then they have the right to go out whenever they choose to do so. Your statement putting conditions on this negates your avowel of maximum freedom. If she has to, if a man lets her, but not if she herself defines the necessity, she can't cross boundaries or she will contaminate society....  All of this to feed your children? No wonder so many non-Muslims think Islam treats women so badly. It's not Islam, it's the Muslims
.
 
 Sister, you seem to take out all your anger. I did not want you to reply there, as it's a non-muslim's section. secondly we are not to debate. I see you more active here , also its a subject pertaining to "women".  So i thought this is a relevant section.
 
The boundaries / limits i was talking of were not  set  by me but by the shariah. Else it may lead to fitnah . Thus, she may be a cause to contaminate the society. Kindly read this link
 
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503548896 - LINK
 
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/22397/work - LINK2
 
 
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/12465/work - link3
 
May Allah swt, bestow all of us with patience and peace, and help us in adhering principles of this true religion. Ameen.
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."



Replies:
Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 01 July 2008 at 5:52am
it is irritating when women are defined as "cotaminating" society. They ARE society, usally half. Women are dirty, they are polluted, a contaminator... it just makes me sad. Unhappy
 
Unfortunately, most of these verses only apply to middle, upper middle class and wealthy women.
 
If I do not go out and work I shall starve. This is the case for most women in the world.  It would be great to follow the Shirah if we lived in an environment that had the Shirah as its model. And no where does it exisit.
 
And then really, only the rich shall marry.. thus causing more fitna.
 
Now as a western person living in western society, I am quite stumped as to how a Muslim woman in hijab is the cause of "contaminating" society. In fact it might be the other way around as they are seen and visable and they can meet nonMuslims. We actually may cause one or two people to question the path they are on.
 
And considering the vase quanities are quite haram activity, the most decent thing may be those women in hijab. One never knows.
 
It may be the language.. but words like contaminate makes us seem like a bacteria. And I am not a germ thank you.  


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 01 July 2008 at 11:04am
"The fact that Allaah has given men more than women in terms of reasoning, thinking and physical strength is something concerning which there is no dispute."
 
WHAT???  If there is no clear dispute on this, where is the daleel?
 
Honestly, this whole subject and the archaic thinking of some women regarding this matter has made me exhausted.
 
Sister, if you want to stay at home and be treated as someone who has less sense and rights than men that is your choice.  I find nothing in The Quran to justify this way of thinking, and if a Hadith cannot be verified by The Quran then the Word of Allah must have precedence. 
I will personally accept the Word of Allah and leave you to accept what you will.
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 01 July 2008 at 5:24pm
As'Salamu Alaikum ,
 
May be that was usage of a wrong word - {contaminate }.  Am very sorry that .
 
But i do vary your opinions again. SIster, { hayfa}, am not saying that even when there is a necessity, she cannot assist her husband financially. Who is asking her to starve ?  There may be necessity of work even for widows or divorcees too. On the other hand, they have an other option to get married again. Why do they not enable themselves with this "right" then, instead of going out and causing fitnah. { be it direct or indirect }.
 
And about the rules which you say get applied in an Islamic state -- Ahhhh !  Does that mean a muslimah, residing in a non-Islamic country  may or may not  wear hijab, can she speak to non-mahrams ,  can  use perfumes and thus, attract everyone around her, --- can do all those sorts which are to be implemented only in a islamic state ?
 
If so, then even Adultery and  drinking shud be haram in an Islamic state only. I don't understand on what basis is it said that these are the rulings only for an Islamic state.
 
Woman itself is a cause of temptation. So is she commanded to wear a hijab and come out when necessary. If you have read that link, you must have come across the verse wherein it is addressed to mother of believer to stay in there homes. At an other verse it is commanded to come out of necessity. I don;t  say that woman are to be in home always, They can come when necessity demands, but they are to be mindful of these conditions . I do respect these woman who work in hijab. I was answering shasta's aunt where she says that   there are no such conditions and they are made by me. Those links show up the conditions which are derived from Qur'an and sunnah .
 
Shasta's Aunt:
 
 
Honestly, this whole subject and the archaic thinking of some women regarding this matter has made me exhausted
 
These opinions of mine and those who agree with my thoughts may be archaic to you, but remember teachings of Islam are never archaic.
 
Shasta's aunt :
 
Sister, if you want to stay at home and be treated as someone who has less sense and rights than men that is your choice.
 
Firstly sister, i  would have ignored your sentence addressed to me at an other thread.  But since you were getting personal, and even in this sentence of yours you are getting personal, i had to start up. It shall be kind of you if you discuss the topic  in general terms. Alhamdulliah, i have many good friends and wellwishers apart from from family to advice me. You need not bother what i teach - in so called your words- "teach your children" or stay at home as someone who has less sense" -  If needed advice seek it.
 
i find nothing in The Quran to justify this way of thinking, and if a Hadith cannot be verified by The Quran then the Word of Allah must have precedence. 
 
On what basis can you claim so. If you do not find a hadith complying Quranic verse , will you reject it ?  If all hadiths are to be verified by Qura'an then there was  there is no need of hadith itself.
 
Suppose if any hadith contradicts with Qur'an then can we take up the verse and leave that hadith, as it may not match the context. BUt denying hadiths when there is not verse to it - is n't correct.
 
Quran repeatedly orders us to  obey Allah and obey Prophet! If every order of Prophet had to be verified by Quran then "Obey Allah" was enough. Why did Allah added obey prophet repeatedly.
 
 
May Allah SWT. guide all of us and help us in gaining knowledge that which is correct so that we implement it in our lives. Ameen
 
Am sorry for being tough but i had to be.
 
 
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 1:33am
Although I may not be directly involved with the issue at hand. . . I felt compelled to say something. . .
 
The subject is a little strange, 'muslima in frustration' . . . are you referring to yourself Seeks, or Sis Shasta's Aunt?
 
Secondly, Can't Non-Muslims access this section? I think they can . . . and thus one has to be careful with whatever they, in whatever section. Which is why with all due respect I would ask all the ppl with certain views with regard to Female Rights in Islam, to keep the personal opinions seperate from those of Islam. The Non-Muslims probably read all the cultural-based stuff here, and say 'Hah! Islam IS a female-subjugating religion' . . .when in reality it isnt.  Same with the Sisters/Brothers section . . .I dont think one can maintain exclusivity on an online forum, due to its public nature, even if they wish to.
 
 
 
The boundaries / limits i was talking of were not  set  by me but by the shariah. Else it may lead to fitnah . Thus, she may be a cause to contaminate the society. Kindly read this link
 
One of the Links you yourself posted, mentions VARIOUS working muslim women . . . with no mention that anyone of them worked because they were starving or widows or divorced. THESE ARE THUS WITHIN Islam's boundaries. . . Hazrat Zainab, the Prophet's wife earned simply because she wished to give Charity out of her own earnings.
 
A woman who steps out of the house DOES NOT  automatically cause Fitnah. Fitnah is caused by MEN & WOMEN who have sinful intentions, or disregard Islamic Ettiquette. And please do not quote the Hadith about women & Fitnah, because that does not refer to the all the WOMEN, but is saying that MEN should mind themselves, because Women are a temptation for them, thus can lead to Fitnah. It is not labelling the women as Fitnah . . .Niether are all believeing Muslimah = Fitnah.
 
Lastly, we have already gone through a pretty lengthy discussion on Working Women, and thus I saw no need to start another thread for it. Obviousley we all have our own views, and nobody is going to be changing them.
 


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 1:49am
Originally posted by seekshidayath

As'Salamu Alaikum ,
 
Woman itself is a cause of temptation.
 
Women are not intrinsically or naturally a 'tempatation'. Temptation stems from the Male, not the female. WHICH IS WHY Islam talks about the male hijab BEFORE the woman. And ORDERS them to lower thier gaze and guard thier modesty. MEN WILL BE QUESTIONED for thier own action. NO MUSLIM MAN will get away scott free fror Allah, because an attractive woman "misled" him or "tempted" him. He will be held responsible for his OWN action, and unless the woman was not following Hijab, she will not be held accountable, simply for venturing out.
 
If one wants to blame anyone, blame the weak, spineless "tempted" male. Not the Muslimah who ventures out. EVEN if a man is surrounded by women of loose character, HIS responsibility to protect his chatsity does not waver. Because he is NOT supposed to be looking at them ANYWAY.
Do not put all the blame on the women and ask them to stay behind closed doors, simply becase Men cannot obey Allah's order.
 
EVEN IF, supposedly all Muslim Women could be locked up, a muslim male will HAVE to face non-muslim females in thier/other countries, WHAT THEN? You cannot enforce Hijab on them . . . HENCE they need to work on the Imaan and Faith.
 
 
 
 
These opinions of mine and those who agree with my thoughts may be archaic to you, but remember teachings of Islam are never archaic.
With all due respect, though your basis/source IS Islam, the point of view slightly seems to deviate from the actual practise during Prophet Muhammad's time, and what he sanctioned, i.e. Women would venture out of thier houses, and not always due to neccassity.
 
 
 
 
 
 
If you do not find a hadith complying Quranic verse , will you reject it ?  If all hadiths are to be verified by Qura'an then there was  there is no need of hadith itself.
The Hadith may not have an exact verification in the Qur'an, but if it contradicts what the Qur'an says, then yes, it is to be considered unauthentic, and rejected. All authentic Ahadith, comply with Quranic Injunctions. . . i.e. are in accordance with what Allah says.
 
 
Quran repeatedly orders us to  obey Allah and obey Prophet! If every order of Prophet had to be verified by Quran then "Obey Allah" was enough. Why did Allah added obey prophet repeatedly.
 There is no doubt about what you said. But if a Hadith is contradicting the Qur'an, I am not going to say that na'azubillah the Prophet was wrong, because that cannot be. . .I am going to say that the narrator made a human error and most probably misquoted the Hadith
 
 
May Allah SWT. guide all of us and help us in gaining knowledge that which is correct so that we implement it in our lives. Ameen
Ameen.
 
Apologies for any disrespect.
 
 


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 7:12am
Sister:
 
I apologise if I seem harsh, but I have to honestly say, if I were a non-Mulsim thinking about Islam as my religion and read some of these posts I would be terrified.
 
Islam does not teach that women are responsible for men's temptation, men are responsible for their own thoughts and deeds.
 
The links you posted contradict each other. One states that women can work if they want and moved about freely, in hijab, at the time of The Prophet, the other states the opposite. Which is correct?
 
By archaic I meant before the time of the Prophet when women were treated as belongings and baby girls had so little value they were buried alive. Islam put a stop to all of that, yet many people today seem to be resorting back to that way of thinking. Perhaps not to the point of killing their baby girls, yet, but definitely to the point of controlling the thoughts and actions of women.
 
I took exception to what was written: "The fact that Allaah has given men more than women in terms of reasoning, thinking and physical strength is something concerning which there is no dispute."
 
So I will ask you this:  if a Muslim woman commits murder, what is her punishment? If a Muslim man commits murder what is his punishment?  They are the same. If a Muslim man commits zina what is his punishment? If a Muslim woman commits zina what is her punishment? They are the same.  What about theft? Didn't the Prophet himself say if Fatima commited theft he would cut off her hand?
 
What about the Quran? Does it prescribe different punishments or levels of punishment for men and women who sin? No. In fact the Quran states over and over again that men and women will be punished and rewarded according to their actions. There is nothing written within the Quran that states men and women will be punished differently for their actions. I can post the Ayats if you like.
 
Now, I have to ask if you believe that Allah(SWT) is Fair, Just, and Merciful? If you believe this to be true, then how can women have been created with less reasoning and thinking abilities than men, yet be subject to the same punishments as men, in this life and on the Day of Judgement?
 
If we are indeed created that way, it is not our fault, so how can we be equally guilty as a man who was created smarter and superior to woman? Surely if Allah(SWT) created us with less reasoning and thinking abilities than men, then He would have given us a different set of punishments for the same crimes/sins.  We would obviously not be as responsible for commiting those sins as men because we wouldn't have the created ability from Allah to think it out and reason through what we were doing like a man.
 
IF Allah(SWT) created men with superior thinking and reasoning, yet He punishes women the same as men, then that is not fair or just or even merciful. Allah(SWT) would be holding us to a standard that we could not reach because He had created us with less ability to think and reason through our actions.  
 
So, either Allah(SWT) created women equal to men, and thus holds us equally accountable for our sins and deeds as states in the Quran, or Allah(SWT) created us not equal to men in our mental capacities, yet holds us equally accountable as men for our sins and deeds, even though by His own creation we can NEVER be mentally equal. So Allah(SWT) would be punishing us for the way He created us.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 8:11am
"i find nothing in The Quran to justify this way of thinking, and if a Hadith cannot be verified by The Quran then the Word of Allah must have precedence. 
 
On what basis can you claim so. If you do not find a hadith complying Quranic verse , will you reject it ?  If all hadiths are to be verified by Qura'an then there was  there is no need of hadith itself.
 
Suppose if any hadith contradicts with Qur'an then can we take up the verse and leave that hadith, as it may not match the context. BUt denying hadiths when there is not verse to it - is n't correct"
 
I was speaking in regards to the matter of this particular thread. Over and over again The Holy Quran states that men and women are equal in the judgement of Allah, yet for some reason many Muslims seem to choose the Hadith that denigrate women.
 
Hadith are the words of men regarding the actions and behavior of the Prophet. The Hadith are not the Word of God, nor has Allah guaranteed that the Hadith would not be free of mistakes, as with The Quran.
 
4:1 O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.
 
Allah created all of us from a single person, we are of like nature and have mutual rights. There is nothing stated here that men have superiority over women, rather we are the same.
 
49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
 
The only superiority in the sight of Allah is the most righteous. I hope you REALLY grasp what this Ayat is stating.
 
78:8 And (have We not) created you in pairs,
 
Created in pairs, of like nature
 

32:8 And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised:

 

32:9 But He fashioned him in due proportion, and breathed into him something of His spirit. And He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and sight and feeling (and understanding): little thanks do ye give!

All of mankind has been given the faculties of understanding. All of the progeny of Adam and Eve, men and women. There is nothing stated in the Ayat that only man was given understanding, or woman was given less understanding.
 
3:195 And their Lord hath accepted of them, and answered them: "Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female: Ye are members, one of another: Those who have left their homes, or been driven out therefrom, or suffered harm in My Cause, or fought or been slain,- verily, I will blot out from them their iniquities, and admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing beneath;- A reward from the presence of Allah, and from His presence is the best of rewards."
 
4:124 If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.
 
Nowhere is it stated that men and women are not held equally responsible. And if women were not equal, then it would be an injustice to hold them equally accountable, but this Ayat makes it clear this is not the case.
 
33:35 For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise,- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
 
Equal reward...

33:59 O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft- Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Apparently Allah states it is fine for Muslim women to go out, as long as they are covered.
 
Please show me the Ayats from the Quran, not Hadith, which abrogate the Ayats posted here or prove that men are superior to women or that women have less thinking and reasoning abilities than men. And please do not use the qiwamah, or maintenance, because that is an obligation given to men by Allah, not a part of their genetic make-up. If men were genetically created to work and provide maintenance there wouldn't be so many women having to work.
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 7:26pm

As'Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu,

All my praises be to Allah swt. Am glad sister that we are back to normal moods. May Allah swt forgive us for being  indifferent to each other.  InshaAllah, i hope this discussion hereonwards, shall benefit us to gain knowledge with deep discussions.

Coming to one of   the points  of discussion in your above post -

"I was speaking in regards to the matter of this particular thread. Over and over again The Holy Quran states that men and women are equal in the judgement of Allah, yet for some reason many Muslims seem to choose the Hadith that denigrate women.

Certainly, Men and woman are equal in the JUDGEMENT of Allah swt. This term equality shall be discussed below , inshaAllah. Regarding that hadith, sister why do you look at it as women being denigrated. Infact you shud feel happy that women are being protected and taken care. Can you  kindly paste that hadith here again.

 
Hadith are the words of men regarding the actions and behavior of the Prophet. The Hadith are not the Word of God, nor has Allah guaranteed that the Hadith would not be free of mistakes, as with The Quran. "

So, will you rejects all the hadiths, as you feel they are not free of mistakes. These have been verified and reverified and then were collected . Hadith -e- Qudsi are word of God, though the verbatim differs. Anyways, the hadiths being quoted is authentic hadith. So, there rises no question of  mistakes in it.

Now, coming to an other point which needs a very detailed explanation - Men and Women in Islam

Let us first try to understand this tern 'Equality".   In  an other faith, women as a human being, irrespective of rights and responsibilities, is considered an inferior being, one  who committed the first sin and hence was condemned forever. She is considered inferiror. When the they  broke itself away from religion, at the  start of Renaissance, there was nothing which could provide as basis for the concept of equality between men and  women as human beings. So they then constructed a concept, which was based on having equal rights and responsibilities in different spheres of life. This is what the whole feminist movement is all about. - Even "Woman's day" is being celebrated, and all such movements and fights for rights , khayr. Now coming to Islam , Allah states  that men and women are created equal.  - We need to rememner that  this  equality does not mean  IDENTICALITY.  We are equal as humanbeings. But when we look at responsibilities and rights assigned to both men and women, they differ. Here Allah swt the - Al-Adl  { The- Just },  He takes them into account with equal justice, even after assigning then with different responsibilities according to there natural inclinations.


Its not the woman in Islam are not deared to Allah swt or men are dearer to Allah swt.

Allah swt says  "if any do deeds of righteousness - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Paradise, and not the least  injustice will be done to them."[4:124]. Dr. Zakir Naik  often explains this concept with this example. Before that let me quote a verse , "“And the male is not like the female” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:36] . This shows that both are not alike. Anyways, lets read this example.


In a class, two students - student ‘A’ and ‘B’ get the highest marks in a subject - 80 out of 100.

The question paper consisted of 10 questions, each of 10 marks.

In the first answer student ‘A’ gets 9 out of 10, student ‘B’ gets 7 out of 10. So in question 1 student ‘A’ has a degree of advantage than student ‘B’.

In question 2, student ‘B’ gets 9 out of 10, and student ‘A’ gets 7 out of 10. So in question 2, student ‘B’ has a degree of advantage, than student ‘A’.

In the remaining 8 questions, both get 8 out of 10, and if you total the marks of both the students, both get 80 out of 100.

So if you analyze, both student ‘A’ and ‘B’ have got over all equal marks.

But in answers to some questions, student ‘A’ has a degree of advantage and in answers to some other questions, student ‘B’ has a degree of advantage - but in terms of overall marks, both are equal.

Since men and women both came from the same essence, they are equal in their humanity. Hope sister, you have now understood  my point well with the above example.

Now, let us see how this A  and B score up in different answers. I mean how men and women are assigned with different responsibilities.

Men can marry woman from ahle kitab and woman cannot.

A woman may wear silk and gold, but a man must not wear them

Prayer in the mosque is obligatory for men, but not for women; a woman’s prayer in her house is more beloved to Allah

Men are different from the female in many ways, in his strength, in his body, in his toughness and roughness, whereas women are soft and gentle, though sometimes they are very harsh. Smile

Women are bore a child while men cannot.

 Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men. So two witnesses of woman are equal to one.

"And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her”

 One of them is asked to remind other because of there forgetful nature


Jihad is obligatory for men, but jihad in the sense of fighting is not obligatory for women.

Don't you agree sister that women are more emotional than men. When a child falls down and gets hurted, see the differences of reaction of a mother and a father. Men are not capable of doing women's job. They  can neither raise children nor can they provide the most necessary love and care to them.

And yes, not to forget  these two hadiths - "Paradise is under the feet of a mother " and the other one is

"A person came to Prophet Mohammed (saw), and asked him, ‘Who is the person who deserves the maximum love and companionship in this world ?’

The Prophet replied, ‘Your mother.’

The man asked, Who next?’

The Prophet said, ‘Your mother.’

The man asked, ‘After that who?’

The Prophet repeated for the third time, ‘Your mother.’

The man asked, ‘After that who?’

Then the Prophet said, ‘Your father.’

So, 75% or 3/4 of the love and companionship of the children are due to the mother and only 25% or 1/4 of the love and companionship goes to the father. In other words, the mother gets the gold medal, she gets the silver medal, as well as the bronze medal. The father has to be satisfied with a mere consolation prize.  Dr. Zakir Naik quotes this.

You did not want me to quote of  "Qawammah". So i leave it. And the other difference ---- yes, awarah is different for them. Men shud cover  the area between navel and kness, whereas its different for women.


 A man can have 4 wives at a time and a woman cannot. In case of separation she gets preference over men in getting the custody of children.

Women are allowed to reject any marriage proposal made to her by prospective suitors, thus if she does not feel she can abide by the rules of the Qur'an and Sunnah if she marries a certain person, she can reject his proposal.

Incase of Ibadahs both are assigned equally. Like the salah is same, Wuduh, zakah etc
 
Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally. In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim are to regard  that as a mercy from Allah swt. We shud n't forget that while there accountability we all shall be judged by The Just.


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 9:21pm
Chrysalis you said:
 
Temptation stems from the Male...
 
So are women immune to temptation? Or we (men) just hormonal creatures?


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 10:06am
Seekshadith:
 
Once again, I take exception to any "sheik" stating that men are superior mentally to women.  That is what I am speaking of, and I see no proof of that in the Quran.  None of what you posted really even addresses this point.
 
As for women being weaker in memory and forgetting more than men, who was responsible for memorising most of the Hadiths?  A woman..... This is supposed to be in matters where the woman might not have knowledge regarding what they are swearing to: how to change a catalytic converter.  Ask any man how many centimeters his wife dilated before she crowned or what size tampons she needs on the fourth day of her menses....
 
You did not want me to quote of  "Qawammah". So i leave it. And the other difference ---- yes, awarah is different for them. Men shud cover  the area between navel and kness, whereas its different for women.
 
This is just common sense.
 
 A man can have 4 wives at a time and a woman cannot. In case of separation she gets preference over men in getting the custody of children.
 
This is because of paternity.

Women are allowed to reject any marriage proposal made to her by prospective suitors, thus if she does not feel she can abide by the rules of the Qur'an and Sunnah if she marries a certain person, she can reject his proposal.

So are men.
 
This is my point: there are those within the Islamic Ummah who state that women are created inferior to men mentally.  I ask only that proof be shown that Allah states this in the Quran.  That's all. 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 10:09am
Originally posted by Israfil

Chrysalis you said:
 
Temptation stems from the Male...
 
So are women immune to temptation? Or we (men) just hormonal creatures?
 
Well, women are brainless ninnies who shouldn't leave their homes for fear of tempting you, or maybe because we might forget how to get back?


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Originally posted by Israfil

Chrysalis you said:
 
Temptation stems from the Male...
 
So are women immune to temptation? Or we (men) just hormonal creatures?
 
Well, women are brainless ninnies who shouldn't leave their homes for fear of tempting you, or maybe because we might forget how to get back?
 
I don't know the relevance of your point or is it a "feminist rant" but I certainly did not say that women are such!
 
I do believe that even during the prophet's time (which historically it is shown he didn't change it) that Arab society as well as most of the civilized world was largely partriarchal. Women staying home tending the children while men worked is a developed social system developed out of patriarchal society because it establishes a hierarchal system in the family. the reason sister Nausheen and other Muslimah's (as well as non-muslims e.g. Angela) argue for this type of system is purely out of two things: religious tradition and social conditioning.
 
It this type of family structure is supposedly divinely related then the people will be taught, conditioned and perform what their religion says overlooking any of the realistic circumstances. They will argue in defense and wven try to show proof using statistics to show why this type of familial system is important this is why I wasn't surprised to see Muslim women being on the defensive regarding women staying home tending the children. there are even some feminist women who argue for women's independence yet, still perpetuate patriarchal values by their defending on the patriarchal system of family.
 
When I came on the scene on this issue some time ago I was one against many who supported this patriarchal system because at the time I was the 'outsider' on this issue. As an arguably Muslim man, I reject this patriarchal system wholeheartedly and will not choose it for my life. I believe in the independence of women and them being autonomous creatures. I do not believe women should just stay home and work and support the family but BOTH men and women help support the family. A man who simply works, works, works just to provide in the Muslim culture shows that men's familial bond between wife and child is demphasized.
 
I believe men are capable of staying home cooking and cleaning and taking care of the children is as calable of performing these duties as women have for centuries. Because I don't see myself being a millionare of billionare anytime soon, I hope to find a woman who is a working professional and independent. I hope we share the same realistic values of family and hope we can work as a TEAM and not independent of each other. don't get me wrong I have no objections of a woman staying home especially when she is birthing my child-(ren), but I have objections to a woman who, at the beginning will say "I'm staying home and taking care of the house and children because its my [Islamic] right." Women must understand that rights don't equal priviledge it means in law that you have the 'legal' choice to do certain things.
 
Men who are sheikhs who comment on these issues have no 'right' to comment on what a woman should and should not do. How can a male, comment on the role of what it is a woman should do? Male Sheikhs have no say so over anything gender related. This is why I definitely support the creation of women Imams and scholars on gender issues within the Muslim community. Although class issues within the female gender would be internal issues in female commentaries I believe women are capable of explaining social issues regarding family, children, and what they want at home and at work.
 
Muslim women on this website who support this male dominant patriarchal system have a hard time counter arguing my point on how this type of family system is gender neutral. In this system men have the upper hand and if you believe otherwise please counter argue this point. Legally, at least in America if I work and provide for the woman and take care of my children and decide to divorce my wife for whatever reason I have the legal upper-hand because a woman has nothing to show for what she has done except what she does at home. Although women working at home can be as hard as working in the "real" world (depending on your financial circumstances) women are not independent because essentially, they depend on the man to take care of them and the children economically, socially, and even spiritually. Like I said, in this syetm men have the upper hand and its sad so many women are blind that they don't see it.
 
I want a woman who don't need me financially but is co-dependent on me emotionally and spiritually and wants to work as my teammate instead of my subordinate.

 


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 8:12pm
[QUOTE=Israfil]
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Originally posted by Israfil

Chrysalis you said:
 
Temptation stems from the Male...
 
So are women immune to temptation? Or we (men) just hormonal creatures?
 
Well, women are brainless ninnies who shouldn't leave their homes for fear of tempting you, or maybe because we might forget how to get back?
 
I don't know the relevance of your point or is it a "feminist rant" but I certainly did not say that women are such!
 
I do believe that even during the prophet's time (which historically it is shown he didn't change it) that Arab society as well as most of the civilized world was largely partriarchal. Women staying home tending the children while men worked is a developed social system developed out of patriarchal society because it establishes a hierarchal system in the family. the reason sister Nausheen and other Muslimah's (as well as non-muslims e.g. Angela) argue for this type of system is purely out of two things: religious tradition and social conditioning.
 
It this type of family structure is supposedly divinely related then the people will be taught, conditioned and perform what their religion says overlooking any of the realistic circumstances. They will argue in defense and wven try to show proof using statistics to show why this type of familial system is important this is why I wasn't surprised to see Muslim women being on the defensive regarding women staying home tending the children. there are even some feminist women who argue for women's independence yet, still perpetuate patriarchal values by their defending on the patriarchal system of family.
 
When I came on the scene on this issue some time ago I was one against many who supported this patriarchal system because at the time I was the 'outsider' on this issue. As an arguably Muslim man, I reject this patriarchal system wholeheartedly and will not choose it for my life. I believe in the independence of women and them being autonomous creatures. I do not believe women should just stay home and work and support the family but BOTH men and women help support the family. A man who simply works, works, works just to provide in the Muslim culture shows that men's familial bond between wife and child is demphasized.
 
I believe men are capable of staying home cooking and cleaning and taking care of the children is as calable of performing these duties as women have for centuries. Because I don't see myself being a millionare of billionare anytime soon, I hope to find a woman who is a working professional and independent. I hope we share the same realistic values of family and hope we can work as a TEAM and not independent of each other. don't get me wrong I have no objections of a woman staying home especially when she is birthing my child-(ren), but I have objections to a woman who, at the beginning will say "I'm staying home and taking care of the house and children because its my [Islamic] right." Women must understand that rights don't equal priviledge it means in law that you have the 'legal' choice to do certain things.
 
Men who are sheikhs who comment on these issues have no 'right' to comment on what a woman should and should not do. How can a male, comment on the role of what it is a woman should do? Male Sheikhs have no say so over anything gender related. This is why I definitely support the creation of women Imams and scholars on gender issues within the Muslim community. Although class issues within the female gender would be internal issues in female commentaries I believe women are capable of explaining social issues regarding family, children, and what they want at home and at work.
 
Muslim women on this website who support this male dominant patriarchal system have a hard time counter arguing my point on how this type of family system is gender neutral. In this system men have the upper hand and if you believe otherwise please counter argue this point. Legally, at least in America if I work and provide for the woman and take care of my children and decide to divorce my wife for whatever reason I have the legal upper-hand because a woman has nothing to show for what she has done except what she does at home. Although women working at home can be as hard as working in the "real" world (depending on your financial circumstances) women are not independent because essentially, they depend on the man to take care of them and the children economically, socially, and even spiritually. Like I said, in this syetm men have the upper hand and its sad so many women are blind that they don't see it.
 
I want a woman who don't need me financially but is co-dependent on me emotionally and spiritually and wants to work as my teammate instead of my subordinate.

 
[/QUOTE]
 
Geez Israfil, sometimes you are a little slow on the uptake. I was sarcastically alluding to previous posts. You know, men are hormonal and so weak minded they can't control themselves so women have to stay hidden away and women are brainless and unable to reason so it's better if they stay hidden away. And to protect the men from their raging hormones, of course.
 
I think we are actually kinda on the same side here, except regarding the Islamic right of the woman to stay home if she chooses. Allah obliges men to provide full maintenance and that is something that is not in question. It is not any scholar's opinion, it is written in The Quran, therefore the Word of God.
 
BTW: Go Boston! Go Boston! Smile


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 9:16pm

Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men.

 

And I’ll take my memory capabilities over the vast majority of people I have ever met and I am a woman.  Allah has well-endowed me with a “man’s memory” capacity.. my niece is brilliant at math.. guess she has a “man’s” brain as well… maybe she got this from her grandmother who studies chemistry in college back in the 1930s… lol Smile

 

It funny some people just want to base everything on one’s gender. Let’s face it. We all know weak women and we’ve all known weak men. We all know st**id people who make poor decisions of both. We know really smart people. We know really pious people.  We know some families where the man makes all the decisions and some where the woman does or else nothing would happen. I’ve met “dramatic” people of both who are so into themselves you feel you are watching a movie-there is so much drama...

 

Its interesting how cultural it all is... Like when they were interviewing women in Saudi Arabia. Some said women should not vote cause they cannot make a rational choice. And here.. we have many women who know women can make reasonable and rational decisions, who are strong who are becoming Muslims. None who I know of would have become Muslims if it said in anyway in the Quran that we are mentally inferior…



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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by Hayfa

Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men. 

 
  Why is it that my wife is able to reproach me with vivid details of some problem I caused her 15 years ago as if it were yesterday?


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 5:44am
Originally posted by Israfil

Chrysalis you said:
 
Temptation stems from the Male...
 
So are women immune to temptation? Or we (men) just hormonal creatures?
 
Israfil. . . I completley agree that BOTH men AND women are EQUALLY prone to temptations. . . however I was referring to the case where ppl say that women should not venture out because it causes temptations. Hence I was saying, if the male is tempted. . .the woman is not at fault, bcz the man is the one responsible for his own temptations
 
Thats what I meant when I said that temptations stem from the male when they look at a woman. .  .hence its thier fault, and not the woman's . . .thus they should worry about controlling thier own actions and stop worrying about why women are venturing out.


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 1:41pm

S.A.

Well the sarcasm wasn't obviously funny nor was it "obviously sarcasm" use emotes *hint *hint. Besides you're slowness was obvious by the fact that the comment wasn't even generated totally to you.....notice I said (Chrysalis).
 
it is written in The Quran, therefore the Word of God.
 
Then if I'm wrong about my view God obviously know why I choose my beliefs the way I do.
 
 
Thats what I meant when I said that temptations
 
Chrysalis perhaps I can convince you to say "some men" instead of using the general term of 'men' since some men aren't the cause of temptations rather, women too can only cause them as well.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 4:34pm

"S.A.

Well the sarcasm wasn't obviously funny nor was it "obviously sarcasm" use emotes *hint *hint. Besides you're slowness was obvious by the fact that the comment wasn't even generated totally to you.....notice I said (Chrysalis)."
 
You seem to be the only one who took it seriously or I would have been inundated by rebuttals by now. 
 
The sarcastic element was the fact that I called women brainless ninnies after having argued throughout three threads that they are anything but.  If I ever have occasion to share a sarcastic aside with you again I will put a complete explanation in parenthesis in tiny little letters*.
 
*(That was sarcasm)
 
BTW: the Go Boston was sarcasm too.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

Originally posted by Hayfa

Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men. 

 
  Why is it that my wife is able to reproach me with vivid details of some problem I caused her 15 years ago as if it were yesterday?
 
My husband can't remember what we had for dinner last night or where he put his keys, his wallet, where the silverware is in the kitchen, etc....


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 6:14pm
Hahahaa ! but sisters, don't be under misconception, that they don't remember dates. Men, forget those important days intentionally Smile.
 
Regarding  temptation - here's a hadith
 
Before that let me remind you all, that Allah swt , created man in a world of tests and trials. One of the fitnahs, by which men are tested are women. ANd here is the sahih hadith
 
"Prophet { Sallal lahu alayhi wasallam) said: “I have not left behind me any fitnah (temptation) more harmful to men than women.”
 
So did i state that  they are cause of temptation. When she wears hijab its less.  I have a question for you all ? If mixing is allowed in Islam, and if  both were equal - then why are women to stand in the last rows during salah ? WHy was it not said, stand wherever, they can ?
 
Alhmadullilah, there are many women in Islam who memorise Qur'an. The qualities of women which are little less than men { cleared in my earlier post}, like forgetfulness,  and all others, are natural and general. There may be exceptions that we find a wife stronger than her husband {physically}, like wise in all other cases, they may overcome man, but its rare and is an exception.
 
Why is it said that we need two witnesses instead of one, and why is it asked for a woman to remind the other ?
 
Here's an observation - WHenever there is a fight or difference between a husband and a wife, its the wife who returns first to reconcile {says sorry} , even if she is correct. She forgets all  that happened and soon overcomes from that stress that  happened earlier.
 
Anyways, sister in US, i have an humble wish. Hope you shall try to meet it. You know IFOD - Islamic Foundation  for curicullum in resenent and Development. Try to meet its founder - Amena. I don't know her full name.
 
Yesterday, i did read her story into Islam. Its many years ago that she was blessed with it. She is a very good daee. She works for the spread of Islam  moving all around the places in US, kindly, try to meet her. I have no clue where she resides. Its not mentioned here. But yes, she says that she was born in Los Angels and moved to Florida. 100s of women entered into folds of Islam after meeting her, Alhamdullilah. She is now well - verses in Arabic, and studies Qur'an with different commentaries. She delivers her speeches over radio and tV  as well. Kindly meet her once, and discuss to her of this topic, we are into. She views the same as i do Smile
Try to associate with her dawah institute and work for the spread of Islam there. I do  now understand as why its tough for you all to agree with. khayr --
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 7:53pm

So you think it is rare for women to have better memories then men??  As the following scientific articles point out.. there are different types of memory. And women excel in certain areas.. and men in others. Read about gender differences in memory.

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_2002_Dec/ai_98125314 - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_2002_Dec/ai_98125314

 

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/98144.php - http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/98144.php

 

The whole issue with finance and having a friend is that men rule the money world. If you are not typically in the "men"s world then you are less likely to be treated as correctly. And clearly some will take advanctage of you. It is like many other areas.. done for the protection of women. Cause there are unscrupulous people out there. Best to have a witness. Or as they do nowadays.. put it in writing.

 

If there are any studies that universally say that women re weaker in memory bring it forth.

 

Whenever there is a fight or difference between a husband and a wife, its the wife who returns first to reconcile {says sorry} , even if she is correct. She forgets all that happened and soon overcomes from that stress that  happened earlier.

 
No way.. women remember everything.. and trust me..  you can think that.. but we women know and don’t forget. Wink 
 

Alhmadullilah, there are many women in Islam who memorise Qur'an. The qualities of women which are little less than men {cleared in my earlier post}, like forgetfulness, and all others, are natural and general.

 

Where is the proof?? How do you make that assumption. Considering that men have better education in much of the Muslim world the pool of people to choose from for women is limited. Its like if women are given same opportunities as men they often outperform men in many areas.  You can see that in western society. Women are outnumbering men in law and medical schools. The men are not able to keep up academically with women now that women have same access to education.   If you gave 1000 men and 1000 women the same training and access then you can compare.  You'd have to do a controlled measured study to make this more then just perception.



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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 10:40pm
 
But you did not answer my two questions. Those lines of my post which were highlighted were my opinions, which i did not present with Quran and sunnah.
 
WHy are women to stand in last rows while is salah ? WHats the wisdom behind that ? Why don't you now say, even we are equal, mixing allowed -- why shud we stand behind. When you don't spread fitnah, and when you are in hijab, why don't you stand amongst men. WHy are you limiting Islam only till salah ? Why  do you not follow in other matters of life too. Culture can be changed. It is we who make the culture and break it.
 
Why are two witnesses of women equated to men.
 
Why is it then said that , if you forget let the other woman remind her ? WHy is it not said to man ? Why women are specifically mentioned.
 
Don't forget that we cannot change these rules of Islam for sake of culture. When we submit ourselves to Allah swt, we are to follow His rules.
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath

 
Why is it said that we need two witnesses instead of one, and why is it asked for a woman to remind the other ? 
 

The Qur'anic verse known as "verse of indebtedness" in which Allah prescribes writing debt contracts as a precautionary measure is: (O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing. Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.) (Al-Baqarah 2:282)

 

The reason for variations in the number of male and female witnesses required is given in the same passage. No reference is made to the inferiority or superiority of one gender's witness or the other's. The only reason given is to corroborate the female's witness and prevent unintended errors in the perception of the business deal. The Arabic term used in this passage, tadhilla, literally means "loses the way," "gets confused," or "errs." But are females the only gender that may err and need corroboration of their testimony? Definitely not, and that is why the general rule of testimony in Islamic law is to have two witnesses, even when they are both male.

One possible interpretation of the requirements related to this particular type of testimony is that in numerous societies, past and present, women generally may not be heavily involved with and experienced in business transactions. As such, they may not be completely cognizant of what is involved. Therefore, corroboration of a woman's testimony by another woman who may be present ascertains accuracy and, hence, justice. It would be unreasonable to interpret this requirement as a reflection on the worth of women's testimony, as it is the only exception discerned from the text of the Qur'an. This may be one reason why a great scholar like At-Tabari could not find any evidence from any primary text (Qur'an or hadith) to exclude women from something more important than testimony: being herself a judge who hears and evaluates the testimony of others.



Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 2:38am
 
JazakAllah for your response brother

I don't say, anyone of them are  superior or inferior. But the distribution of responsiblities vary between men and women. They are n't distributed equally. Anyways, i shall not comment over your post right now. Am waiting for an other question to be answered.

Why are women to stand last in the rows while offering salah ?



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 5:22am
Originally posted by seekshidayath

   
WHy are women to stand in last rows while is salah ? WHats the wisdom behind that ? Why don't you now say, even we are equal, mixing allowed -- why shud we stand behind.  
 

Every row of performing salat is good, however unnecessary mixing is undesirable, thus we find the best row for men is the front and the best for women is the back.

 

      Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "The best of the men's rows (in Salat) is the first row and the worst is the last; but the best of the woman's row is the last and the worst of their rows is the first.''
[Muslim].

 

  Ali Ibn Abi Taalib once remarked:

     “If the religion was according to opinion, it would be more fitting to wipe the bottom of the sock, rather than the top. Surely, I saw Allah’s Messenger (P.B.U.H) wiping over the tops of his socks.” (Abu Dawud and Ad-Daraqutni).



Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 8:32am
Originally posted by Israfil

Chrysalis perhaps I can convince you to say "some men" instead of using the general term of 'men' since some men aren't the cause of temptations rather, women too can only cause them as well.

 
Smile Indeed I was referring to only those men who are weak enough to get 'tempted' when they see woman in the workplace/outside her home. And yes, both men and women are equally prone to/ are the cause of temptations. . . that was I initially meant. Perhaps I couldnt xplain myself tht well.
 
Btw, with refernce to Shasta's post . . . though I agree with everything else, I dont believe that on a whole the nature of both men & women is equal/the same.
 


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 8:53am

Originally posted by Hayfa

If there are any studies that universally say that women re weaker in memory bring it forth.

I did a quick Google search ("men women memory studies") and it looks like women have better memories than men for most things.  Here is a typical study:

Sex Differences In Memory: Women Better Than Men At Remembering Everyday Events

...

Psychologists Agneta Herlitz and Jenny Rehnman in Stockholm, Sweden asked an even more complicated question of human predisposition: Does one’s sex influence his or her ability to remember every day events? Their surprising findings did in fact determine significant sex differences in episodic memory, a type of long-term memory based on personal experiences, favoring women.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080220104244.htm - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080220104244.htm



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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 8:54am
Originally posted by seekshidayath

 
But you did not answer my two questions. 
 
WHy are women to stand in last rows while is salah ? WHats the wisdom behind that ? .
 
Why are two witnesses of women equated to men.
 
 
 
Not even a minimally knowledgable Muslim will say that the above aspects of Islam & Qur'an are wrong. HOWEVER they can disagree with the logic people invent in order to explain the injunctions. And though I happily accept Allah's injunctions, I do not and will not accept the reason you and some other muslims put forward to explain this.
 
The above injunctions in no way imply that women are mentally deficient to men. Both have been blessed with EQUAL yet different natural tendencies/capabilities. Yet there are still some men & women out there that defy the natural tendencies and are exceptional/different.
 
As for why women pray behing men i.e. in the last rows. . .does not mean that they are inferior etc. It is so the mosque remains a place where the focus strictly remains on Allah & worship. Not the oppositte gender. Also like I mentioned in an earlier post, women pray in the last rows, for thier own convenience of the hijab. So that men do not ogle at them while they are engrossed in worship, or body parts are in plain view. ETC
 
As for the ayah that refers to two female witnesses. The verse is referring to financial transactions, like Brother Abuaisha so correctly mentioned. Btw, one can look up completely non-religous researches that show that male-female minds function differently when it somes to subjects like maths, language, science etc etc.
Whatver country you may go to, you will still find that the more men are in the financial fields, and have more business/financial experience on a whole. Thus when it comes to witnesses, there is an exception in the number of witnesses.
 
HOWEVER in non-financial transactions, even during Prophet Muhammad's time, on many a times, a single woman's testomony was accepted. Especially since in many cases, only women are present and thus only they can be a witness - especially when it comes to cases pertaining to family affairs etc.
 
The Prophet cancelled a nikah from taking place bcz a woman stood up and said that she had breastfed both the prospective bride & groom as kids. . . (as a wet-nurse) thus both became related. I can also quote other examples later. . . as well as references.


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 10:00am

When witnesses are needed regarding other aspects such as committing zina, theft, rape, the number of witnesses remains the same whether men or women.  In the case of zina or rape in which the penalty would be death, why didn't Allah demand double the number of female witnesses? This is a far more serious matter than indebtedness.

I don't think anyone has said that men and women are not different. I think what we are saying is that they are equal.  Equal does not mean identical. Equal means like in quality, nature, or status.  What I have been saying is that nowhere in the Quran does is state that men and women are not equal except where it comes to maintenance which is an obligation from Allah upon men.  The Quran clearly states that men and women are like in quality, nature and status:
 
4:1 O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 06 July 2008 at 2:05am
Originally posted by Chrysalis

Originally posted by seekshidayath

 
But you did not answer my two questions. 
 
WHy are women to stand in last rows while is salah ? WHats the wisdom behind that ? .
 
 
  
As for why women pray behing men i.e. in the last rows. . .does not mean that they are inferior etc. It is so the mosque remains a place where the focus strictly remains on Allah & worship. Not the oppositte gender. Also like I mentioned in an earlier post, women pray in the last rows, for thier own convenience of the hijab. So that men do not ogle at them while they are engrossed in worship, or body parts are in plain view. ETC
 
 
 
From a previous post: When you are in a congregation, there are all sorts of ppl in them . . good, bad, perverts, etc etc. During prayers, one has to go thru various positions, bending over, bowing down etc, this may expose parts of the body or make them look obvious. . . you cannot ensure that the men behind the women do not leer at her or, or lose the purpose of the prayer.
 
Women also have a certain amount of privacy at the back . . . they may want to breastfeed a child, adjust the hijab etc. Some women observe the Niqaab, and have to remove it for prayers, thus they too need to be at the back as well.
 
Just because a person is at the front, and another is at the back, does not denote inferiority. You can use the same analogy for the Imam of the prayer and the Jamaat. .  .one can use that logic to say that the people standing behind the Imam are inferior to him?!? No. The placements of the Jamaat have nothing to do with inferiority/supererioty etc.
 


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 12:02am

Not sure what this thread is exactly about ... but there are no barriers to which thoughts can go, so lets flow by the trend :0)

I simply dont understand how someone who stays at home has become "inferior". Can anyone explain that, please.
 
Also to Hayfa ... if you may please take the time to carefully read on various strings regarding the topic of working women, nowhere it has been stated that you should be confined to your home when there is a genuine need to go and earn.
of course the whole discussion is about working because of the "work culture" rather for any specific need.
 
SH:: I commend your himmah on this topic. Just know that the forums are to exchange and not to change opinions. In other words you wont be able to change anyone's thinking even if you were to exhaust yourself to eternity.
 
I remember debating with a brother on these very forums - and might I add - endlessly - about women's education. He said there is no need for women to go to schools and colleges and they can serve as very good mothers even without any formal education.
 
Today, I still don't agree with the first part of that debate ... ie the "no need of any education" concept, but over the time my view of a "good mother" has changed to the point that I do believe uneducated (in secular sciences) mothers can do a great job bringing up children. At least I know my grandmother who knows only Urdu as a language of communication, and besides that she can read arabic. But she is a wonderful muslima and has been a wonderful mother -and a wonderful grandmother.   -- so people's views change in time, but they certainly don't change by reading a long post on IC forums -  so, my advice to you, and I pray you don't burn yourself over the matter.
 


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 1:42am
Originally posted by Nausheen

 
SH:: I commend your himmah on this topic. Just know that the forums are to exchange and not to change opinions. In other words you wont be able to change anyone's thinking even if you were to exhaust yourself to eternity.
 
Though what you say is true Nausheen, that one cannot change opinions on issues. I believe many like me, do not post just so they can change the other's opinion. . .
 
Speaking for myself, I knw that when I put forward the opposite view or any knowledge, especially on a public forum such as this one, or you-tube for e.g it also educates others who happen to chance upon it. For e.g a muslim that is ignorant of Islamic injunctions, or a non-muslim that thinks Islam is a dark religion. Many a times I'm sure there are muslims out there on the brink, who have been let down by the culture-tainted version of Islam, and may be pushed on either side of the line of Islam. . . Thus I knw that atleast I did my job by putting the view I believe is the Islamic-based one. And thus I cease to post replies on threads that I believe are turning into a 'debate' rather than discussion . . .
 
PS: I know this was meant at Shasta's Aunt, but I can relate to her wanting to strive to put the info based on islamic sources out there. Which is why I added my own 2 cents.
 


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 3:59pm
Sister Nausheen:
 
There were links posted to some fatwas which stated that women were inferior in their mental abilities. That is why I have responded so fervently.
 
I have never thought that women who work outside the home are superior to women who work inside. They are all working extremely hard and choosing what they believe is important. I object 100% to any "sheik" or "scholar" stating there is no doubt in Islam that men are mentally superior to women. THere are no Islamic grounds for such a statement and even though I have asked repeatedly for one Ayat that negates those I have posted showing our equal nature, not identical, equal, none have been forthcoming.
 
I know that there are Muslims who will still hold these views as truth even without daleel of any sort, but I hope that anyone who comes here to learn will take into account the actual Words of Allah, not our personal opinions.
 
I wrote this on another thread which was about the same general issue, but I think it is appropo here:
 
I have read so many articles trying to explain that Islam does not oppress women, Islam was the first religion to give women their rights, etc... yet the very fact that these articles have to be written to try to convince people this is so means that something is very wrong.  If the Ummah were truly treating women the way Allah intended and giving women all of their rights there would be no need for such articles and assurances because it would be a nonissue, it would just be a fact of life. 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 7:07pm
As'Salamu Alaikum,
 
Hope sisters, you shall excuse me for sometime. I need some time to concentrate and read your posts well to reply you all. Insha Allah, i shall surely post mine.
 
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 8:14pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
Chrysalis,
 
My post was not directed to anyone in particular. To me the most needy person is myself, all muslims being better, because I know my follies.
SA is a revert, and reverts to me are like my 10 year old who is so new to Islam. Yet, I have read SA on many occasions where she has posed arguments better than anyone on these boards - so please let me not judge.
 
I know that people can be "informed" on forums. But I also know that when we argue people usually switch off their "understanding" faculties, and switch on their "refuting" faculties. So the best thing is to allow them room for their own study.  SH had been trying to give some pragmatic advice, but it will only be received by any of you when you have done your own study on the matter.
 
As for the debate of men and women and their equality in Islam. What is the meaning of equality, I ask all of you?
Islam says a man is protector and provider of his women folk - and it nowhere places the burden of being a provider on the woman - is this inequality?
 
If you open any book on islamic rights and duties in a marriage, there is a small section on woman's duties, and an endlessly long section on her rights. Is this inequality?
The door to anyone's jannah is from his/her mother's feet, not the father's feet. Is this inequality?
 
A woman gets the thawab of hajj when she wakes up one time to tend to her baby. Can anyone show me any hadith where a father gets the same thawab? Is this inequality?
 
Yet, all of this looks like a woman is being preferred.
 
And there can be several other examples where you will find men are being preferred.
 
In reality neither one is being preferred over the other due to any gender bias.
 
Men and women, arab and non arab are all equal in term of human rights. And they are all equal with respect to righteousness. If a man prays tahajjud his prayer is no better than a woman who gets up to pray, except when the circumstances of the two are different, and their devotion is different.
 
So islam has marked roles for each in a society. Islam also demands different types of "birr" from each. Because islam does recognise them as different. If "different" translates as "unequal" it is a problem of comprehension, nothing more.
 
Just a small side note: I have long decided not to read on islamonline.net or islamqa .... I found some things seriously contradictory to what I alrady know and my way of learning is that if I find some flaw in a website I dont rely on it primarily.  I am not saying the shaykh there don't have knowledge, just that I might run into problems understanding things if I were to spend time there. 
Best places to read is a good book. After that, one may research a website and read only when the heart is settled to what they are relaying. So no comment on the links.
 
SA, I agree with all that you directed to me in the above post.
 
I am not sure how one can say women are inferior in intellect.
 
The only thing I know scientifically is that a bigger brain is considered as better in mental ability. On "an average" - and not in exceptional cases - a baby boy's brain weighs more than a baby girls.
The brains of men and women work differently, so the execution of tasks is different depending on gender.  Men are better with precision, and women are better in executing multiple tasks at the same time. I don't know if that can spell superiority of one over another - did not read any such thing so far.
 
There is an incident in quran where it is stated that two female witnesses are required as opposed to one male - this is explained by scholars as a wisdom because women tend to forget facts more quickly than men. Some people might read that as lesser mental ability - wallahu alam.
 
I read that the power to forget is  a blessing from Allah, because if we were not able to do that life would have been very miserable since we would be carrying all the baggage of bad experiences into the rest of our lives.
In the same vein, it was said that the word for womb is rahm which comes from the rood word rahma or mercy. It is the woman who carries the womb, and Allah has placed in a woman a greater  ability to have mercy - she is softer, more compassionate and kinder. This difference is agian not an inequality, rather out of a wisdom, because men and women have different roles and responsibilities in society.
Mercy and compassion cannot develop if one were to keep grudges. A woman is more compassionate because her ability to forget is better than of a man - in other words it is easier for her to let go of grudges than men.
 
Having a finer ability to forget bad experiences does not mean this human brain is less eqquipped to retain important details which it forces to retain.
 
Another subject I wished to touch - was mentioned by others.
 
If you think men and women are same in their sensualities you are again wrong. It is a scientifically proven fact that a man's bloodstream carreis 5-20% more testosterone than a woman's. This brings about many behavorial differences between the two.
A situation which is more likely to make a man slip, a woman might not even notice it.  A row of magazines on a stand with "less appropriate" pictures are "more likely" to arouse a man's feelings than a woman's.
 
Same element is never a source of same level of temptation for the two genders - and I wont debate this, rather leave if for you either to disagree or research.
 
If Islam allows women to go out, it does not mean it is preferable for them to go out rather than stay indoors.
 
Since Islam is very rational, it does not pose absolutes on us, instead leaves many areas for flexibility depending on situations. Look at marriage - it is said that one who marries has completed 50% of his deen, and marriage is highly recommended. However, it is still not a fard, but remains a sunnah. Why?
The answer is obvious, not everyone may have the wherewithal to marry ... thus it remains a sunnah - a highly recommended sunnah.
 
In the same way, the religion was not designed to confine women in their homes, they are allowed to go out and seek their needs - yet the better for them is that they stay at homes. In one of the duties of a husband is that when he leaves his home he should take care so far that he makes sure she has the material to wash her hair ... whatever it used to be in olden times.  
 
Women are not fitna, but they are more likely to become a cause of fitna. Confining them is not an opression, rather a means of protection. If we want to see this in a positive light the insinuations are plenty. Yet if we want to get sensitive about the matter, our miseries will likewise be plenty.
 
Even here in Japan which is such a safe society that in general there is no danger for a girl walking on a lonely street in the middle of the night, yet we do here cases of molestation in this country. We do hear advices from wise people to not do "foolish" things.
 
If we look at the whole thing its a matter of rationale, and not oppression, rights, daleel etc etc ...
 
 
 


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 12:46am
Assalamu Alaikum:
 
Yes, I am a revert of eleven plus years. I studied Islam for perhaps ten years before I reverted.  I have found that many reverts are extremely knowledgeable about Islam because they do tend to study before and after reverting. They are not subject to the cultural baggage that people born into Islam seem to have, nor do they do things a certain way simply because that's what their family has always done. 
 
Look at the emerging scholars today: Humsa Yusuf, Siraj Wahhaj, Yusuf Islam, Abdal Hakim Murad, they are reverts.  Jeffrey Lang and Karen Armstrong have become very well known for their writings on Islam and Muslims in the west. Both reverts. 
 
Reverting to Islam gives you an opportunity to learn about Islam without all of the external influences often found within established Muslim families and societies. You are not burdened by the perspective of generations of culture and familial pressure, and unthinking obedience.
 
 
 
 
 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_2002_Dec -  

 
 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 3:45am
Salaams Shasta's Aunt" Did Karen Armstrong revert??

And you cna add Iman Zaid Shakir to that list as well ..

If bigger brain's indicated more intelligence then elephants and whales would be ahead of all of us.. lol



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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 8:44am
Originally posted by Hayfa

Salaams Shasta's Aunt" Did Karen Armstrong revert??

And you cna add Iman Zaid Shakir to that list as well ..

If bigger brain's indicated more intelligence then elephants and whales would be ahead of all of us.. lol

 
And Yusuf Estes, Abdur Rahim Green . . .
 
Also, with regards to brain sizes and intelligence. An African Grey Parrot has a walnut sized brain, if not smaller - yet it has the same cognitive capabilities of a human toddler. . . with a bigger brain.


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Yes, I am a revert of eleven plus years.
"Revert" suggests to me someone who was once a Muslim, left the religion and then returned.  Do you mean "convert"?


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Yes, I am a revert of eleven plus years.
"Revert" suggests to me someone who was once a Muslim, left the religion and then returned.  Do you mean "convert"?
 
All babies are born Muslim in that they are free of sin and in submission to God. When we return to Islam we revert back to this submission.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by Hayfa

Salaams Shasta's Aunt" Did Karen Armstrong revert??

And you cna add Iman Zaid Shakir to that list as well ..

If bigger brain's indicated more intelligence then elephants and whales would be ahead of all of us.. lol

 
Sorry, I was writing this at 4 am and I meant Yvonne Ridley, but Karen Armstrong came out....
 
I know there are many others, but my tired brain couldn't conjure their names. Bilal Phillips, Ibrahim Hooper of CAIR, Ingrid Mattson(a womanShocked) and president of ISNA, Yusef Estes, and more....
 
Don't forget dolphins....
 
 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

All babies are born Muslim in that they are free of sin and in submission to God. When we return to Islam we revert back to this submission.
So that would make all non-Muslims apostates?


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 5:38pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

All babies are born Muslim in that they are free of sin and in submission to God. When we return to Islam we revert back to this submission.
So that would make all non-Muslims apostates?
 
Only if you are fully cognizant as a newborn infant and choose to turn from Islam.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 6:15pm
 For a while it really made me happy to hear that Karen Armstrong is a revert ... but thanks for the confirmation.
 
Also am sorry for not realising I was not talking to a group from science background.
I camparison of brain size versus intelligence cannot penetrate interspecise. Also size is not the only factor which will determine intelligence. It is actually the convulusions of the grey matter that results in intelligence (within Homo sapiens - for the sake of this discussion), slo at first more the grey matter, more is the intelligence - which is an attribute of size or rather weight. Along with this between two brains of equal weight and size, the more the convolusions, more will be the intelligence.
 
 
 
 


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Only if you are fully cognizant as a newborn infant and choose to turn from Islam.
If a newborn is not fully cognizant, how can it be said to have any religion at all?  What does it mean for a newborn to "believe" in Allah?


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 10:04am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Only if you are fully cognizant as a newborn infant and choose to turn from Islam.
If a newborn is not fully cognizant, how can it be said to have any religion at all?  What does it mean for a newborn to "believe" in Allah?
 
A Muslim is someone who submits to God's Will. It is not a religion but a state of being.  All of the non-human animals on the earth, the angels, the heavens, all submit to God's Will without choosing to do so.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 5:59pm
This really is getting us nowhere and I don't want hijack the discussion, but let me try just once more.  How can one be said to submit to God's will if one doesn't have a choice?  Surely submission is a choice, i.e. a voluntary subordination of one's own will to God's.

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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 10 July 2008 at 9:24pm

Is that your hobby? - Hijacking thread's Question At least you shldn't have done that in women's section ... Confused

It is believed in Islam that Allah took a covanant from all souls after creating them - this is before they come to the realm of this world. Thus all of us are already under this covanant as soon as the soul is breathed into the body - this event takes place at 120 days of gestation.


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 12:04am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

This really is getting us nowhere and I don't want hijack the discussion, but let me try just once more.  How can one be said to submit to God's will if one doesn't have a choice?  Surely submission is a choice, i.e. a voluntary subordination of one's own will to God's.
 
Yes, newborn infants are forced to choose as they emerge from the womb.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 12:49am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

This really is getting us nowhere and I don't want hijack the discussion, but let me try just once more.  How can one be said to submit to God's will if one doesn't have a choice?  Surely submission is a choice, i.e. a voluntary subordination of one's own will to God's.
 
This means that a human-bieng has a natural inclination in him/her to believe in a higher-power and Diety, and knows that a Superior bieng exists, even without bieng told to. And there is a natural inclination towards believing in God/Allah.
 
It is external factors that turn a person into an Athiest etc. And the foremost aspect of Islam is believeing in ONE Supreme bieng, Allah. That is wht muslims mean when they say that all babies are born as Muslims. A baby is not aware of Islamic injunctions and Shariah.
 
Also, I woudnt have a problem believing that Allah makes a covenant with us before birth, because we never remember anything that happens in the womb, and forget everything about our birth anyway! So who am I to say what happened/ or did not in the womb? Since I dont remember/know anything from that time. Or before conception/after it.


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 10:12am
Originally posted by Nausheen

Is that your hobby? - Hijacking thread's Question At least you shldn't have done that in women's section ... Confused
I had forgotten that this discussion was in the Women's section.  My apologies.


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Chrysalis

Originally posted by Ron Webb

This really is getting us nowhere and I don't want hijack the discussion, but let me try just once more.  How can one be said to submit to God's will if one doesn't have a choice?  Surely submission is a choice, i.e. a voluntary subordination of one's own will to God's.
 
This means that a human-bieng has a natural inclination in him/her to believe in a higher-power and Diety, and knows that a Superior bieng exists, even without bieng told to. And there is a natural inclination towards believing in God/Allah.
 
It is external factors that turn a person into an Athiest etc. And the foremost aspect of Islam is believeing in ONE Supreme bieng, Allah. That is wht muslims mean when they say that all babies are born as Muslims. A baby is not aware of Islamic injunctions and Shariah.
 
Also, I woudnt have a problem believing that Allah makes a covenant with us before birth, because we never remember anything that happens in the womb, and forget everything about our birth anyway! So who am I to say what happened/ or did not in the womb? Since I dont remember/know anything from that time. Or before conception/after it.
 
We believe babies are born completely innocent and free of sin.  They remain so until they are able to comprehend right from wrong and reach an age of accountability.
It is outside influence that cause them to turn one way or another.
 
A for submission without choice, babies also submit to the will of their parents, their caregivers, older siblings, in a more physical sense without choosing to do so. They are helpless infants.... 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt



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