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WHY CHRISTIANS REJECT THE KAABA.

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12658
Printed Date: 16 April 2014 at 1:31am


Topic: WHY CHRISTIANS REJECT THE KAABA.
Posted By: robin
Subject: WHY CHRISTIANS REJECT THE KAABA.
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 2:50am

WHY CHRISTIANS REJECT THE KAABA.

 

The reason is based of the teachings of The Prophet Moses (see below) in the first instance then on how Christians followed the same teaching.  

 

This shrine is the Kaaba, a cube-shaped structure normally covered by a large curtain of black brocade and containing the sacred Black Stone. This stone, which Muslims believe was given to Adam for the forgiveness of sins upon his expulsion from Eden, was then supposedly white.   In Muslim tradition the original Kaaba perished in Noah’s Flood, but the Black Stone was preserved and later given to Abraham by the angel Gabriel, after which Abraham rebuilt the Kaaba and restored the Black Stone to its proper place. It is in the direction of the Kaaba—according to Islam the holiest place on earth—that Muslims orient themselves in prayer five times a day.   The Quran commands the worship of the Kaaba stone, the pilgrimage to Mecca, the fast during the month of Ramadhan.

 

The Law of Moses says stone must not be worshiped!:-

Leviticus 26:1

“‘YOU must not make valueless gods for yourselves, and YOU must not set up a carved image or a sacred pillar for yourselves, and YOU MUST NOT PUT A STONE AS A SHOWPIECE IN YOUR LAND IN ORDER TO BOW DOWN TOWARD IT; for I am Jehovah YOUR God.

 

  «لا تَصْنَعُوا لَكُمْ اوْثَانا وَلا تُقِيمُوا لَكُمْ تِمْثَالا مَنْحُوتا اوْ نَصَبا وَلا تَجْعَلُوا فِي ارْضِكُمْ حَجَرا مُصَّوَرا لِتَسْجُدُوا لَهُ. لانِّي انَا

الرَّبُّ الَهُكُمْ.

Deuteronomy 4:28

And there YOU will have to serve gods, THE PRODUCT OF THE HANDS OF MAN, wood and STONE, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.

 

  وَتَصْنَعُونَ هُنَاكَ آلِهَةً صَنْعَةَ أَيْدِي النَّاسِ مِنْ خَشَبٍ وَحَجَرٍ مِمَّا لا يُبْصِرُ وَلا يَسْمَعُ وَلا يَأْكُلُ وَلا يَشُمُّ.

 

Deuteronomy 29:17-18

“...and you used to see their disgusting things and their dungy idols, wood and STONE, silver and gold, that were with them;) 18 that there may not be among YOU a man or a woman or a family or a tribe whose heart is turning today away from Jehovah our God to go and serve the gods of those nations; that there may not be among YOU a root bearing the fruit of a poisonous plant and wormwood.

 

  وَرَأَيْتُمْ أَرْجَاسَهُمْ وَأَصْنَامَهُمُ التِي عِنْدَهُمْ مِنْ خَشَبٍ وَحَجَرٍ وَفِضَّةٍ وَذَهَبٍ

  لِئَلا يَكُونَ فِيكُمْ رَجُلٌ أَوِ امْرَأَةٌ أَوْ عَشِيرَةٌ أَوْ سِبْطٌ قَلبُهُ اليَوْمَ مُنْصَرِفٌ عَنِ الرَّبِّ إِلهِنَا لِكَيْ يَذْهَبَ لِيَعْبُدَ آلِهَةَ تِلكَ الأُمَمِ. لِئَلا يَكُونَ فِيكُمْ أَصْلٌ يُثْمِرُ عَلقَماً وَأَفْسَنْتِيناً.

 

 

Does not the following teach humans to break God’s Law on the worship of Idols?

Su 2:125

Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the Station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Ismail, that they should sanctify My house for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or Prostrate themselves (therein in prayer). … 127  And remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing."

 

Su 5:100

Allah made the Kaba, the Sacred House, as an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them: That ye may know that Allah hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

 

In The Bible Moses says:-

Deuteronomy 4:25

“In case you become father to sons and grandsons and YOU have resided a long time in the land and do act ruinously and do make a CARVED IMAGE, A FORM OF ANYTHING, and do commit evil in the eyes of Jehovah your God so as to offend him ...”

 

 «إِذَا وَلدْتُمْ أَوْلاداً وَأَحفَاداً وَأَطَلتُمُ الزَّمَانَ فِي الأَرْضِ وَفَسَدْتُمْ وَصَنَعْتُمْ تِمْثَالاً مَنْحُوتاً صُورَةَ شَيْءٍ مَا وَفَعَلتُمُ الشَّرَّ فِي عَيْنَيِ الرَّبِّ إِلهِكُمْ لِإِغَاظَتِهِ

 

1 Corinthians 10:14

Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from IDOLATRY. 

  لِذَلِكَ يَا أَحِبَّائِي اهْرُبُوا مِنْ عِبَادَةِ الأَوْثَانِ.

1 John 5:21

Little children, guard yourselves from IDOLS.

  أَيُّهَا الأَوْلاَدُ احْفَظُوا أَنْفُسَكُمْ مِنَ الأَصْنَامِ. آمِينَ.




Replies:
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:09pm
It does seem so much like idol worship, but I have been told it most definitely is not.
 
What is really odd is the kissing of the black stone.  Have you seen pictures of the stone?
 
http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone.html - http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone.html
 
Scroll down to about mid page.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 9:50pm
you talking about that silver object? which is definitely strange.

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 1:06am
Originally posted by believer

It does seem so much like idol worship, but I have been told it most definitely is not.
 
What is really odd is the kissing of the black stone.  Have you seen pictures of the stone?
 
http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone.html - http://www.crystalinks.com/blackstone.html
 
Scroll down to about mid page.
 
 
Sound very familiar!
 
Kissing stone images etc, in the Bible condemned:-

 

1 Kings 19:18

And I have let seven thousand remain in Israel, all the knees that have not bent down to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

 

Hosea 13:1-2

“When Ephraim spoke, there was trembling; he himself carried [weight] in Israel. But he proceeded to become guilty in regard to Baal and die. 2 And now they commit additional sin and make for themselves a molten statue from their silver, idols according to their own understanding, the work of craftsmen, all of it. To them they are saying, ‘Let the sacrificers who are men kiss mere calves.’



Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 5:59am
 
Its again a misconception amongst non-muslims  that muslims worship, Black stone and Kaaba. Its no where in the Glorious Qur'an that we are to worship black stone. And we bow down none but to Allah. Kaaba is our Qibla, which means the direction wherein we are to face. While offering our prayers { Salah} whichever part of the world we may be, but we face this direction of Kaaba. For instance, if we are in west, we face east, or if we are in the eastern part of the world, then we face west. Like wise, we all face kaaba while worshipping One true God. Thus, unity fosters amongst us. Our prostrations are only for Allah swt.

We  Muslims regard the Black  Stone as 'just a stone'. When Umar ibn al-Khattab, the second Caliph, came to kiss the Stone, he said, in front of all assembled:

 "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger kissing you, I would not have kissed you."

Even we muslims today follow the same trend. An an other point to be noted, that during the days of Prophet { Peace be upon him} people even used to call for prayers { Adha"an} over the terrace of Kabah. Even today while draping kabah with a new cloth or people do climb over it. If it were Kaaba or the Black stone we worshipped, why would we stand over it.

We believe that the Black stone did ascend from the heavens. History of Kabah , can be read in the link shared by 'believer".



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 6:32am
 What was the purpose of robin for this post? It was something to do with Moses a.s. There is no truth in saying that Muslims worship kaabah or the black stone. robin has given some references whxi do not prove anything. robin should comment on the words of Deut chapter, what is understood by that. Like Moses said, the Muslims also do not mould or cut images for worship.
 
 If Moses said anything about Ka'abah then at least it proves the history of Ka'abah to the time of Moses a.s. That would be very useful for the Muslims. Let us understand what did moses a.s. say about Ka'abah. Then a good reply will be given


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 9:45am
Originally posted by minuteman

 What was the purpose of robin for this post? It was something to do with Moses a.s. There is no truth in saying that Muslims worship kaabah or the black stone. robin has given some references whxi do not prove anything. robin should comment on the words of Deut chapter, what is understood by that. Like Moses said, the Muslims also do not mould or cut images for worship.
 
 If Moses said anything about Ka'abah then at least it proves the history of Ka'abah to the time of Moses a.s. That would be very useful for the Muslims. Let us understand what did moses a.s. say about Ka'abah. Then a good reply will be given
 
It is like the following.
 
PAGAN ORIGIN OF RELIC WORSHIP
In addition to what God’s holy Word the Bible says on the matter there are other very good reasons why true Christians should not venerate or worship religious relics. The practice and custom did not originate with Christ or his apostles or with God’s chosen nation of Israel. It is clearly a pagan invention and hence of the Devil, pure and simple, and the Catholic Encyclopedia admits as much. It says that the veneration of relics is "a primitive instinct" and is associated with many other religious systems besides that of Catholicism. It goes on to tell how the ancient Greeks superstitiously worshiped the bones and ashes of their heroes, how the Persians "treated with the deepest veneration" the remains of Zoroaster, and how "relic-worship amongst the Buddhists of every sect is a fact beyond dispute".

Other authorities have shown that the ancient Egyptians, Assyrians and Babylonians likewise venerated the relics of their lords and princes. "In the realms of Heathendom the same worship had flourished for ages before Christian saints or martyrs had appeared in the world. . . . From the earliest periods, the system of Buddhism has been propped up by relics, that have wrought miracles at least as well vouched as those wrought by the relics of St. Stephen, or by the ‘Twenty Martyrs’ [mentioned by Augustine]." (Alexander Hislop’s The Two Babylons, pages 177,178) In Kandy, Ceylon, a 400-year-old temple contains what is said to be Buddha’s tooth, "venerated by many millions of people." (The Ceylon Daily News, April 1, 1950) Into the presence of this relic the British foreign secretary, Ernest Bevin, was brought on January 1, 1950, in the hope it would miraculously cure his ailments.—New York Times, Jan. 16, 1950.

The heathen idea of attributing magical powers to bones, skulls, teeth and skins is so much older than Christianity, the above Catholic authority chooses to call it "a primitive instinct". In reality it is nothing more than fetishism, concerning which the Encyclopedia Americana (1942 ed., vol. 11, p. 158) says: "It is the lowest of the unsystematic forms of worship found among uncivilized tribes, and exists especially among the Negroes of Africa, but also among the natives of both Americas, the Polynesians, Australians, and Siberians." When Catholic Portuguese mariners sailed down the west coast of Africa they could see little difference between the worship of "sacred" bones, skulls and charms by the natives, and their own worship of religious relics and amulets which they called feitiços, and from which we get the name fetish.

M’Clintock & Strong’s Cyclopœdia (vol. 8, p. 1028) well sums up the whole matter when it says: "There is no doubt that the worship of relics is an absurdity, without the guarantee of Scripture, directly contrary to the practice of the primitive Church, and irreconcilable with common-sense."



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 1:49pm
Robin,
write it down: "Muslims don't worship anything that is Created by God." In my understanding kissing or touching of the black stone is as that of a relic, since we believe our forefathers and prophets like Abraham and even Adam has placed it when they erected the house of worship to God in that place. I have not been there, but if ever went, to touch it would be like to touch something that our prophets have touched, so in a way to connect with them, its probably about that feeling, and not at all how you are suggesting.
 
So don't waist your time in looking for quotes.
If you are told so, you are misguided. Here is a chance to correct your knowledge about Islam.
We do not make images of God or bow down to them like Cristians,  Hindu,   and others did and do, nor we think of God as a super size white man.
When we bow down we bow down only to God, our and your God like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus did and taught.
 
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 1:02am
Originally posted by honeto

Robin,
write it down: "Muslims don't worship anything that is Created by God." In my understanding kissing or touching of the black stone is as that of a relic, since we believe our forefathers and prophets like Abraham and even Adam has placed it when they erected the house of worship to God in that place. I have not been there, but if ever went, to touch it would be like to touch something that our prophets have touched, so in a way to connect with them, its probably about that feeling, and not at all how you are suggesting.
 
So don't waist your time in looking for quotes.
If you are told so, you are misguided. Here is a chance to correct your knowledge about Islam.
We do not make images of God or bow down to them like Cristians,  Hindu,   and others did and do, nor we think of God as a super size white man.
When we bow down we bow down only to God, our and your God like Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus did and taught.
 
Hasan
 
 
 
The correct view is:-
 
An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined.   Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol.   It is usually practiced toward a real or supposed higher power, whether such power is believed to have animate existence (as a human, an animal, or an organization) or is inanimate (as a force or lifeless object of nature).   Idolatry generally involves some form, ceremony, or ritual.
 
 


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 21 June 2008 at 3:09am
Robin: An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined.   Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol.   It is usually practiced toward a real or supposed higher power, whether such power is believed to have animate existence (as a human, an animal, or an organization) or is inanimate (as a force or lifeless object of nature).   Idolatry generally involves some form, ceremony, or ritual.

This is not a correct definition of idolatry. Do you never love Isa (as) ? He was an animate existence (as a human). If this is a correct definition and If you love Isa (as) then I can accordingly say you are committing idolatry!

In addition, it does not prove that the true act of worshiping (regarding with Haj) by Mohammad (sawa) is an idolatry, does it?



Posted By: _ALI_
Date Posted: 21 June 2008 at 5:52pm

Salam Robin

It is a great misconception (generally among the non-Muslims not Muslims) that Muslims worship the Kaba. Kaaba is the Qibla i.e. the direction Muslims face during their prayers. It is important to note that though Muslims face the Kaaba during prayers, they do not worship the Kaaba. Muslims worship and bow to none but Allah.

It is mentioned in Surah Baqarah:

"We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction."
                              [Al-Qur’an 2:144]
 

 Islam believes in fostering unity

For instance, if Muslims want to offer Salaah (Prayer), it is possible that some may wish to face north, while some may wish to face south. In order to unite Muslims in their worship of the One True God, Muslims, wherever they may be, are asked to face in only one direction i.e. towards the Kaaba. If some Muslims live towards the west of the Kaaba they face the east. Similarly if they live towards the east of the Kaaba they face the west. Imagine, I meet so many Muslims online and I do not know where they are from, but I know that they bow in the same direction I bow. That is called unity in Islam.

Hadith of Umar (may Allah be pleased with him)

Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, there is a hadith (tradition), attributed to the illustrious companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Umar (may Allah be pleased with him).

According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you".

 People stood on Kaaba and gave the adhaan
At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the ‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. I ask you, if we worship the Kaba and it is like our idol then which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?
I agree that Christianity discourages idol worship (which is strange since many Christians worship statues of Jesus) but even Christianity understands the concept of bowing down to a sacred place.
Psalm 138:2
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word
.
Let me also quote Quran to clear things up
Behold!  We gave the site, To Abraham, of the (Sacred) House (i.e., the Kaaba), (Saying):  'Associate not anything (In worship) with Me; And sanctify My House For those who compass it round, Or stand up, Or bow, or prostrate themselves (Therein in prayer).  And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;  (The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)"
So After giving Kaba to Abraham, God immidiately says: Associate nothing (in worship) with Me, clearly implying that do not worship the sacred House, worship Me. 


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 21 June 2008 at 7:40pm
 
 The christians do not have any Center of prayer. They do not have a system of regular prayers. But the Jews have a system in which they need to have a center of worship.
 
 The Muslims have maximum prayer system, in every town, village, house, country etc. The Muslims have a day and night prayer system. They need a proper Center of worship system. Otherwise, people in one house will be praying haphazardly, the son facing east, the father facing west and so on.
 
 Also, beside individual prayers (Nawafil) the most important is the obligatory (fardh) prayers five times a day. These prayers need to be performed in a mosque. There may be many mosques in a village or city. Imagine, if they had no central direction then one mosque will be facing west, the other east and the third one facing south.
 
 Also people would fight with each other about the direction of the mosque. Each one would like to build the mosque facing his own house. To do away with us such maladies, Allah guided the prophets, from the very beginning about a center of worship. Hazrat Ibraheem a.s. built that center of worship for the purpose of the worship of the One God (Allah) in Makkah, Arabia.
 
 That place is the center only. It is not the item of worship. Nobody worships Makkah or Ka'abah. If the place of wroship has no value then why it is written in the OT about Abraham and Jacob and others building a place of worship. Why to build any place at all? If it is a useless act.
 
 The christians cannot understand the importance of the center of worship. They do not have any center. And they do not have any law too. Just their own man made laws of marriage and divorce and worship. Nothing from God. So we request them to read the OT and try to understand the importance of the places of worship. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 5:29am
Originally posted by myahya


This is not a correct definition of idolatry. Do you never love Isa (as) ? He was an animate existence (as a human). If this is a correct definition and If you love Isa (as) then I can accordingly say you are committing idolatry!
 
 
THINK!!
 

By your comment and definition to Love Allah, is then Idolatry!

 
I should go and thinks again if I was you!


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 9:04pm
 
 
The correct view is:-
 
 
You are "asserting" a view, which does not make it a fact.
 
 
 
 
 
An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined.   Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol. 
 
 
Juvenile. According to this rubbish, you mother is an idol.
 
 
This fails to define what idolatry is.
 
 
 
 
 
 
  It is usually practiced toward a real or supposed higher power, whether such power is believed to have animate existence (as a human, an animal, or an organization) or is inanimate (as a force or lifeless object of nature). 
 
 
The word "usually", still leaves room for you mother to be an idol, and you an idol worshipper.
 
 
  Idolatry generally involves some form, ceremony, or ritual.
 
 
Usually or not, this does not make my view about the ka'aba "idolatry". You worship a man that is no different than the myriad man god cults that existed in the same region that your faith was born. Semi bowing to the wall in Israel, or to the Ark of Moses is no more "idolatry" then what you have attempted to accuse Muslims of doing. You, or the source you copied and pasted from, has made a willful distortion of the bible to fit their means, an act you faith has mastered.


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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by minuteman

The christians do not have any Center of prayer. They do not have a system of regular prayers. 
 
The christians cannot understand the importance of the center of worship. They do not have any center. And they do not have any law too. Just their own man made laws of marriage and divorce and worship. Nothing from God. So we request them to read the OT and try to understand the importance of the places of worship. Thanks.
 
 
This is not correct. Christians to have a centre of worship, either home or the church. There are the Alters at the head of the church, and people in the homes make up a little alter to face and focus on. When entering the church you dab your fingers in the holy water and make the sign of the cross while kneeling down with one knee towards the Alter. The church outside has a board with times of services/mass to attend to, you don't need to attend all of them. Sundays many people to keep that day for serives just as muslims attend Friday prayers. In the home many followers have prayer just before dinner. If you cannot attend church because of illness then someone can come to the home and preform holy communion, this is what my Grandmother doesm has she cannot get to church. She does miss attending church, She attended everyday for the morning services.
 
So please don't sit there and say that Christians don't have a direction of focal point and a centre of focus or system of regular prayers. Many attend regular prayers like my grandmother did everyday and still does but in the home!
 
While Rome may be the centre for the head of the church, It is the place of Jesus' birth and death that are important. Just because there is no particular direction of west or east or north or south, does not make it any less value. Direction is of no importance but focusing on God where ever you are in whatever direction. God is not in some particular direction, usually people look towards the sky since that is supposedly where heaven is. 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by robin

[QUOTE=honeto]An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined.   Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol.   It is usually practiced toward a real or supposed higher power, whether such power is believed to have animate existence (as a human, an animal, or an organization) or is inanimate (as a force or lifeless object of nature).   Idolatry generally involves some form, ceremony, or ritual.
 
 
 
Robin, you have not done yourself good here, your explanation can also be said of mass in church which is a ceremony/ritual of giving of the blood (wine) and bread (the wafer) given.
 
Also robin, of pagan orgins of things, before trying to point out others seem to follow pagan rituals, you might like to re-learn the history of Christianity, even the hats of bishops are mithesism in origin.


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by robin

 
  
[quote] 
An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined.   Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol. 
 
 
Juvenile. According to this rubbish, you mother is an idol.
 
 
This fails to define what idolatry is.
 
 
LOL 
 
Try Brad Pitt Tongue 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 10:00pm
Robin: THINK!! By your comment and definition to love Allah, is then idolatry

I have not presented any definition here. This is what can be concluded from your definition. Are you saying this to me or yourself?!!
 






Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 22 June 2008 at 10:33pm

Angel: Direction is of no importance but focusing on God where ever you are in whatever direction.

As a Muslim I do not doubt that wherever you turn you can talk to God:

Quran (2:115): The East and West are God's: wherever you may turn, there will be God's countenance, for God is boundless-all knowing.

and I do so. However, and besides, a place is of specific importance when Allah swt glorifies it and gives it that importance:

Quran (2:125): Thus we set up the House as a resort for mankind and a sanctuary. Adopt Abraham's station as a place for prayer. We entrusted Abraham and Ishmael with cleaning out My house for those who circle around it and are secluded[praying] there, and who bow down on their knees in worship.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 10:45am
Originally posted by Angel

[QUOTE=minuteman]The christians do not have any Center of prayer. They do not have a system of regular prayers. 
 
 
 
 
This is true, because we do not need, it we can pray to The Almighty God from anywhere on earth at any time from our hearts and not by rote from a book our to orders of men, as The Prophet Jesus said:-
 
Matthew 6:5-8
"Also, when YOU pray, YOU must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I say to YOU, They are having their reward in full. 6 You, however, when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret; then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you. 7 But when praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words. 8 So, do not make yourselves like them, for God YOUR Father knows what things YOU are needing before ever YOU ask him.
 
 


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 9:18am

There are different types of Prayers in Islam. There is the formal, the ritual. That Muslims are obligated to perform 5 times per day. There is structure and formality. With a few exceptions they can be performed anywhere. Yes one faces the direction of the Kaaba. But the prayers can be done almost anywhere...

I liken it to karate.. I use karate metaphors often. We, in karate all wear the same uniform. Learn the same techniques. There is structure and formaity so to speak. This helps to focus and clear the mind of outside interferences. Same with prayers. The formal and the structure helps us to focus as well as helps discipline us.  By facing the kaaba we all know what to do. No worries, no debates.. just do the structure and focus on Allah.
 
We also can pray to Allah at any point as well. In fact we are encouraged to remember Allah as much as possible in all of our actions and thoughts. But to pray or "talk" to Allah.. that can happen all the time.
 
Also the formal prayers are about bringing all together, sharing and actually eliminating differences.  The prayers are for the most part the same. I can travel in the world, meet Muslims and we all can do prayers together. When I attend the masjid I pray with women from all over the world... none of us is better than each other except what is in our hearts. Sometimes we cannot speak much to each other. But we bow our heads together and share our love of Allah.
 
Idolotry is about praying to a person or item and giving it powers attributed to God. I know of no Muslim who worships the Kaaba.


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by robin

 
  
[quote] 
An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined.   Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol. 
 
 
Juvenile. According to this rubbish, you mother is an idol.
 
 
This fails to define what idolatry is.
 
 
LOL 
 
Try Brad Pitt Tongue 
 
 
If she is put before God, YES.
 
Brad Pitt (and many more of the like) can be a on screen Idols too!
 
Anything that is put before God is an Idol, even ones own self can be, as in the western world!!


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 3:25pm

Do the prayers not count if you don't face Mecca?



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 4:32pm
 
 
Robin,
that sounds good, but the following verse is kind-a strange, as Jesus himself use to pray in open with others.
Luke 22:39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
 
believer,
if you are reading this, note that Jesus get strengthened by an angel. We know that if he was God, as you claim, he would not need an angel of God's help.  

 Hasan



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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 5:32pm
SALAM
First of all I pray peace and Allah grace to us all.  I was born and raised christian all my life and a licensed teacher (minister) of the Gospel. I was one of the fortunate to be found of Islam. My brothers and sisters to walk in a religion and live it fully to your knowledge is great, but to be found by truth (Islam) is the greatest.  To even think of the Kaaba as an idol or that Muslims worship it is lack of knowledge.   Instead of focusing on biblical scripture, one should study the Quran and see (that's if you have eyes to see and ears to hear).  To see Islam as pagan worship is also lack of knowledge.  The truth will stand and we all will be raised on that Great Day.  I only SUGGEST that anyone wanting to know instead of listening to the media and people calling themselves leaders speak about something they have no knowledge of.  Search and find the truth.  Truth is like this, it will sit and wait to be found of; then it STANDS!  Once it stands, it will not sit again! PEACE...... Wink  


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 12:25am
Originally posted by honeto

 
 
Robin,
that sounds good, but the following verse is kind-a strange, as Jesus himself use to pray in open with others.
Luke 22:39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
 
believer,
if you are reading this, note that Jesus get strengthened by an angel. We know that if he was God, as you claim, he would not need an angel of God's help.  

 Hasan

 
 Hasan, that is a great post from you. We are telliing the christian friends all about the real status of Jesus. But they by-pass the good verses and do not try to understand the reality. Why was jesus praying? To whom he was praying? He had a God? He was being visited by an angel. The angel was giving him message of goodness from his God and Jesus was being strengthened by the angel of God.
 That is in accordance with the verse of the Quran too, in which it was told to Jesus that he will not die on the cross but he will die a respectable death and he will be raised to Allah respectfully (3:52 to 3:55)
 Bible has also given hint to that message (Luke 22:43) as mentioned by the Quran. The angel from heavens visited Jesus in the time of great difficulty and assured him that all will be well by Grace of Allah and that he will not die a cursed death on the cross. That was the cup that Jesus was trying to avoid.
 
 Anyhow, it is good help from hasan to understand that Jesus was being helped and promised good things by the angel. That is a point the christian friends should try to understand with fair mind. Thanks hasan.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 5:01am
LOL!!  minuteman you are putting words into GOD's mouth- but I do not fault you for that.  In the Quran one can see all the words in parathesis that man has added to Mohammad/Allah's words.
 
["assured him that all will be well by Grace of Allah and that he will not die a cursed death on the cross."]
 
Remember that Jesus as the Living WORD of GOD was under the authority of GOD, limited by His human body, so of course He would pray to GOD.
 
LOL!!  honeto - Jesus was praying in front of His followers, not just any Joe-smoe on the street!!
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 6:20am
Originally posted by Zaharah

SALAM
First of all I pray peace and Allah grace to us all.  I was born and raised christian all my life and a licensed teacher (minister) of the Gospel. I was one of the fortunate to be found of Islam. My brothers and sisters to walk in a religion and live it fully to your knowledge is great, but to be found by truth (Islam) is the greatest.  To even think of the Kaaba as an idol or that Muslims worship it is lack of knowledge.   Instead of focusing on biblical scripture, one should study the Quran and see (that's if you have eyes to see and ears to hear).  To see Islam as pagan worship is also lack of knowledge.  The truth will stand and we all will be raised on that Great Day.  I only SUGGEST that anyone wanting to know instead of listening to the media and people calling themselves leaders speak about something they have no knowledge of.  Search and find the truth.  Truth is like this, it will sit and wait to be found of; then it STANDS!  Once it stands, it will not sit again! PEACE...... Wink  
 
MASHALLAH! SUBHANALLAH!


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 6:25am
Originally posted by believer

Do the prayers not count if you don't face Mecca?

 
From what I understand, when you are near Mecca, you are required to face Mecca, however when you are far far away, your Qiblah or direction is towards the sunset.
 
Imagine this, a Muslim in China starts praying facing the West, an Ausralian Muslim prayers also starts from the West, an African Muslim also faces the West. Muslims pray in one language and in one set of actions that were taught by our dear Prophet Muhammad. In other words, if a Muslim from China were to enter a mosque in Africa, he will not feel out of place, as the language and the actions are all the same.
 
That is the universality of ISLAM. The CHOSEN RELIGION OF GOD ALMIGHTY.
 


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 6:43am

Hi Robin,

Do you know that the Kaaba is the center of the earth?
 
That it has zero magnetism compared to all other parts of the earth?
 
Muslim Scientist: Neil Armstrong Proved Mecca - World Center
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixfk4LsKWnw&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixfk4LsKWnw&feature=related
 
MASHALLAH!
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPww2q6-kfE -  


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 7:53am
From what I understand, when you are near Mecca, you are required to face Mecca, however when you are far far away, your Qiblah or direction is towards the sunset.
 
Is this true?? I live far away and have never heard this.  In fact no one hears prays in the direction if sunset..  that might be in the far east where you are from.. but is not true in North America or the west coast of Africa or South America.


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 9:51am
 
 From what I understand, when you are near Mecca, you are required to face Mecca, however when you are far far away, your Qiblah or direction is towards the sunset.
 
 The above is not true. No body faces sunset direction except thos ewho are in the east side of Makkah. It is very easy to find the direction of Makkah from any place in the world. Whenever a mosque is built, the proper direction of Makkah is noted and mosque built accordingly.
 
 It is interesting to note that Makkah lies just at the point where the sun passes in May and July. Makkah is about 23 degrees North latitude. The exact time and date can be found when the sun is directly above Makkah. At that time if the shadow of a staff (long rod) is noted, that will be the exact direction of Ka'abah.
 
 So from north of England or from any place in Australia, the exact direction of Qiblah can be found and followed. It should also be noted that the order is to face the Qiblah physically and spiritually (intentionally). A small mistake when praying in a house can be overlooked. Or, when travelling in a train or a plane, the person may pray in whichever direction the transport is moving.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 6:25pm
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Hi Robin,

Do you know that the Kaaba is the center of the earth?
 
That it has zero magnetism compared to all other parts of the earth?
 
Muslim Scientist: Neil Armstrong Proved Mecca - World Center
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixfk4LsKWnw&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixfk4LsKWnw&feature=related
 
MASHALLAH!
 
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPww2q6-kfE -  
 
Brother, kindly post this at "General Discussion". There was once a discussion over this topic, and few members wanted us to prove that Kaa'ba is the centre of the earth.
 
 


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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 June 2008 at 2:24pm

Daniel 7

25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by honeto

 
 
Robin,
that sounds good, but the following verse is kind-a strange, as Jesus himself use to pray in open with others.
Luke 22:39Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." 41He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." 43An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
 
believer,
if you are reading this, note that Jesus get strengthened by an angel. We know that if he was God, as you claim, he would not need an angel of God's help.  

 Hasan

 
You are right!
 
Jesus is NOT God!


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by believer

Daniel 7

25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.

 
Can you address the issue rather than cut and past believer??
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Nasir
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 7:16pm
Funny how Islam never says reject a christians beliefs, or any other religion. But Christians always have the tendency to find false information in Quran, but no matter how you try my friend there is none. 1 word in the quran has more than 1 million meanings.

Stop trying to show us why you reject us, it is your religion Robin and you follow it as we follow ours. Why is it that you assume that Muslim Terrorist, OH WAIT DID I SAY MUSLIM?? The last time I checked being a muslim does not involve terrorism, nor does it involve beating your wife and screaming derka derka. You ignorant white folks have been ignorant since the beginning of racism. We are all people, there is one god, he has no sons, and  Muhammed is his prophet (peace be upon him).


Posted By: Zaharah
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 7:24pm
Believer,
could you please explain to us in this forum what daniel 7: 25 means and why you post it here, we need clarification
ZaharahStern%20Smile


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 28 June 2008 at 3:06am
 
 From believer:
Daniel 7

25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.

 I was also wondering why believer posted the above from Daniel 7. There are some pronouns used in the verse. Who is He, the most high, his saints, handed over to him (him?) etc. Nothing is understood unless we open the chapter 7 of Daniel and ready the material from there. Thanks anyhow>
 


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Nasir

Funny how Islam never says reject a christians beliefs, or any other religion. But Christians always have the tendency to find false information in Quran, but no matter how you try my friend there is none. 1 word in the quran has more than 1 million meanings.

Stop trying to show us why you reject us, it is your religion Robin and you follow it as we follow ours. Why is it that you assume that Muslim Terrorist, OH WAIT DID I SAY MUSLIM?? The last time I checked being a muslim does not involve terrorism, nor does it involve beating your wife and screaming derka derka. You ignorant white folks have been ignorant since the beginning of racism. We are all people, there is one god, he has no sons, and  Muhammed is his prophet (peace be upon him).
 
Not all muslims are as you say above, but we go by actions as they speak louder than words.
 
The words that suit the action of some Muslims:_
 
Sura (Chapter) 9:29
 
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book*, until they pay the Jizya** with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

*Christians

**The Head Tax levied on non Muslims living in an Islamic country.

 

 

PARADISE FOR SOLIDERS!

The Holy Qur'an by Abdullah Yusuf Ali p.1315 says at:-

Surah (Chapter) 47:4
"4   Therefore, when ye meet* the Unbelievers (in fight),
smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): Thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself);
but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah,-He will never let their deeds be lost.

6   And admit them to The Garden** which He Has announced for them."

*Footnote No. 4820 on page 1315:-
"When once the fight (Jihad) is entered upon, carry it out with utmost vigour, and strike home your blows at the most vital points (smite at their necks) both literally and figuratively. You cannot wage war with kid gloves."

**Footnote No. 4826 on page 1316:-
"The Garden which He has announced for them: the state of Bliss which is declared in Revelation to be destined for those who serve Allah,"

 
Surah 4:101 Section 15. When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for fear the Unbelievers may attack you: For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.

Some Religious Groups:-

HAMAS - Islamic Resistance Movement.

HAZBOLLAH - Party of God.
JAISH-E-MOHAMMED -
Army of Mohammed



Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 29 June 2008 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by _ALI_

Salam Robin

It is a great misconception (generally among the non-Muslims not Muslims) that Muslims worship the Kaba. Kaaba is the Qibla i.e. the direction Muslims face during their prayers. It is important to note that though Muslims face the Kaaba during prayers, they do not worship the Kaaba. Muslims worship and bow to none but Allah.

It is mentioned in Surah Baqarah:

"We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction."
                              [Al-Qur’an 2:144]
 

 Islam believes in fostering unity

For instance, if Muslims want to offer Salaah (Prayer), it is possible that some may wish to face north, while some may wish to face south. In order to unite Muslims in their worship of the One True God, Muslims, wherever they may be, are asked to face in only one direction i.e. towards the Kaaba. If some Muslims live towards the west of the Kaaba they face the east. Similarly if they live towards the east of the Kaaba they face the west. Imagine, I meet so many Muslims online and I do not know where they are from, but I know that they bow in the same direction I bow. That is called unity in Islam.

Hadith of Umar (may Allah be pleased with him)

Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, there is a hadith (tradition), attributed to the illustrious companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Umar (may Allah be pleased with him).

According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you".

 People stood on Kaaba and gave the adhaan
At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the ‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. I ask you, if we worship the Kaba and it is like our idol then which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?
I agree that Christianity discourages idol worship (which is strange since many Christians worship statues of Jesus) but even Christianity understands the concept of bowing down to a sacred place.
Psalm 138:2
I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word
.
Let me also quote Quran to clear things up
Behold!  We gave the site, To Abraham, of the (Sacred) House (i.e., the Kaaba), (Saying):  'Associate not anything (In worship) with Me; And sanctify My House For those who compass it round, Or stand up, Or bow, or prostrate themselves (Therein in prayer).  And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;  (The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)"
So After giving Kaba to Abraham, God immidiately says: Associate nothing (in worship) with Me, clearly implying that do not worship the sacred House, worship Me. 

 

The Hadith is much like the Jewish Talmud or the Churches Book of Common Prayer or the Catholic Missal, the words of men so not of much use as it is only dogmas or history and not God's inspired words!



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 8:24am
robin, where it mentions, Al-Qur'an and the noble quran, then it is the word of God not man.

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 02 July 2008 at 12:55am
Originally posted by myahya

Robin: An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined.   Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol.   It is usually practiced toward a real or supposed higher power, whether such power is believed to have animate existence (as a human, an animal, or an organization) or is inanimate (as a force or lifeless object of nature).   Idolatry generally involves some form, ceremony, or ritual.

This is not a correct definition of idolatry. Do you never love Isa (as) ? He was an animate existence (as a human). If this is a correct definition and If you love Isa (as) then I can accordingly say you are committing idolatry!

In addition, it does not prove that the true act of worshiping (regarding with Haj) by Mohammad (sawa) is an idolatry, does it?

 
You know as well as I do the the key factor is "Worship" is in the above and it is regarding the Bible's usage!


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 3:39am
Robin: You know as well as I do the the key factor is "Worship" is in the above and it is regarding the Bible's usage!

Well, the key factor is worship. Now, who has told you (or how did you conclude) that Mohammad (sawa), while he was performing Haj, was worshiping anything except God or Allah swt?!! ... And the same for Muslims.



Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 3:18pm
[QUOTE=myahya] Robin: You know as well as I do the the key factor is "Worship" is in the above and it is regarding the Bible's usage!

Well, the key factor is worship. Now, who has told you (or how did you conclude) that Mohammad (sawa), while he was performing Haj, was worshiping anything except God or Allah swt?!! ... And the same for Muslims.

[/QUOTE]
 
Here is the TRUE GOD:-
1 Chronicles 22:1
Then David said: "This is the house of Jehovah the [true] God, and this is an altar for burnt offering for Israel."
 
2 Chronicles 26:5
And he continually tended to search for God in the days of Zecha·riah, the instructor in the fear of the [true] God; and, in the days of his searching for Jehovah, the [true] God made him prosperous.
 
Nehemiah 8:6
Then Ezra blessed Jehovah the [true] God, the great One, at which all the people answered, "Amen! Amen!" with the lifting up of their hands. They then bowed low and prostrated themselves to Jehovah with [their] faces to the earth.
 
Nehemiah 9:7
You are Jehovah the [true] God, who chose A´bram . . 
 
 

THE FIRST THREE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

Exodus 20:1-17

“And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying:

 

1        2 “I am Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 You must not have any other gods against my face.

 

2        4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; 6 but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.

 

3        7 “You must not take up the name of Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.

Where do it say the he - Jehovah - must be worshiped in the Quran, as Moses penned the 10 Commandments?

 



Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Andalus

 
 
The correct view is:-
 
 
You are "asserting" a view, which does not make it a fact.
 
 
 
 
 
An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined.   Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol. 
 
 
Juvenile. According to this rubbish, you mother is an idol.
 
 
This fails to define what idolatry is.
 
 
 
 
 
 
  It is usually practiced toward a real or supposed higher power, whether such power is believed to have animate existence (as a human, an animal, or an organization) or is inanimate (as a force or lifeless object of nature). 
 
 
The word "usually", still leaves room for you mother to be an idol, and you an idol worshipper.
 
 
  Idolatry generally involves some form, ceremony, or ritual.
 
 
Usually or not, this does not make my view about the ka'aba "idolatry". You worship a man that is no different than the myriad man god cults that existed in the same region that your faith was born. Semi bowing to the wall in Israel, or to the Ark of Moses is no more "idolatry" then what you have attempted to accuse Muslims of doing. You, or the source you copied and pasted from, has made a willful distortion of the bible to fit their means, an act you faith has mastered.
 
Thank you Andalus. The section of Christianity that Robin states he/she belongs to only recognizes one feast, that of Nisan 4, where all of them gather in congregation to "memorialize" the supposed death of Jesus. It is at this ceremony that they pass bread and wine to the congregation, but only those who are of the 144,000 people that will be the only ones to go to heaven can eat of this bread and wine. Doesn't that follow a ritual form  of worship and is not that a prescribed ceremony? How does that differ?  And how mean you are to your own followers if they are "disfellowshipped" and treated as viciously as my brothers wife was when she married him after she left an abusive JW husband and did not wait until he "committed fornication" by marrying and sleeping with another woman. She is now a muslimah alhamdullilah and realized how brainwashed she was! I find the teachings of your cult very unkind and not of the Teachings of Jesus or a forgiving and compassionate Creator!
The Christians of so called Christiandom are ahead of you! But we will all account for our deeds on Judgement Day when we stand before Him for an accounting.


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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by mariyah

[/QUOTE
 
Thank you Andalus. The section of Christianity that Robin states he/she belongs to only recognizes one feast, that of Nisan 4, where all of them gather in congregation to "memorialize" the supposed death of Jesus. It is at this ceremony that they pass bread and wine to the congregation, but only those who are of the 144,000 people that will be the only ones to go to heaven can eat of this bread and wine. Doesn't that follow a ritual form  of worship and is not that a prescribed ceremony? How does that differ?  [/QUOTE]
 
1
IT IS NISAN 14TH.
 
2
The Prophet Jesus commanded it to be done, so if one does not do it one does not except him as a prophet or messenger of God:-
 
Luke 22:19-20
Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
 
thus is it not wrong to do as ALLAh commanded it to be done via his Prophet!


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 2:13am

Robin: Here is the TRUE GOD:-

1 Chronicles 22:1

Then David said: "This is the house of Jehovah the [true] God, and this is an altar for burnt offering for Israel."

2 Chronicles 26:5

And he continually tended to search for God in the days of Zecha·riah, the instructor in the fear of the [true] God; and, in the days of his searching for Jehovah, the [true] God made him prosperous.

Nehemiah 8:6

Then Ezra blessed Jehovah the [true] God, the great One, at which all the people answered, "Amen! Amen!" with the lifting up of their hands. They then bowed low and prostrated themselves to Jehovah with [their] faces to the earth.

Nehemiah 9:7

You are Jehovah the [true] God, who chose A´bram . . 

I see no relevance between these verses and the question I asked in the last post. All prophets such as Adam (as), Noah (as), Abraham (as), Ismaeel (as), Isaac (as), Moses (as), Isa (as) and the last one Mohammad (sawa) all spoke of one true God in different languages. What are you trying to prove with the name Jehovah?!!

THE FIRST THREE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

Exodus 20:1-17

“And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying:

1        2  “I am Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 You must not have any other gods against my face.

Again it has nothing to do with my question.

2        4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; 6 but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Abraham (as) did not make Kaba for himself. The True God (that you are talking about) told him to do so. He did what Allah swt willed. I have already quoted the corresponding verse from Quran in this thread.

3        7 “You must not take up the name of Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah (Heb. vuvh) will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.

How did you come up with worthlessness of the way of worshiping in Haj by Mohammad (sawa)? Is it written in the above verse? No. Therefore, take care to not make for yourself a carved belief in your mind and heart without any evidence.

 
Where do it say the he - Jehovah - must be worshiped in the Quran, as Moses penned the 10 Commandments?

In Quran? You can find it in Quran wherever it says that Allah swt must be worshiped.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 9:09am
round and round it goes... Cool

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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 9:56am
 
 
 I have noticed some interesting things. I knew a few Jehovas Witnesses. I noticed somethings good in them. But lately I have understood some very weak points too. I had praised the JW's in front of a friend of mine who had much more actual experience of the JW's. I had praised them but he stopped me and said that they are very dangerous (misled) sect or he said something to the effect that they were not really good at all.
 
 Now I am learning from robin if robin is at all a JW. I have seen few JW's. They do too much research into the bible OT and NT. They have bible pages marked with cross references so much that nearly every page and every line is marked.
 
 I found them peaceful and very hard working organised people. But the problem now at hand is: There is a name of God. Surely it must be in different languages. In English it may be called God. In Hindi Parmatama. In Persian KHuda. In Arabic it is called Allah. So what difference does it make if He is called by different names in different languages? The God is the same One God, the creator of the heavens and earth.
 
 But the whole building or tower that is built by the JW's is resting on the name of God as Jehova as if it cannot be anything else. That is their absolute weakness, I mean a very hollow base. They have revolved the whole religion around one word "Jehova" and built the whole theory of their religion on that. That is not fair. There are many other spiritual things to be considered.
 
 Perhaps they think that one word Jehova will do miracles. That they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. At this stage, robin is busy making a vocabulary of words in new and old araimic. What is the use of teaching us the deep meaning of things (words) such as "begotten" and "Worship" etc.

Perhaps they think that Jesus is not God and it may be some diversion / achievment for them. But in the next breath robin said that Jesus was a smaller (lesser) God. The JW's have all the ills of the general christians such as Jesus dying on the cross, then calling the instrument of death as a stake (not cross) then believing that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. Then saying that he came back to life after death. Then believing in the original sin. There is hardly anything of the R. Catholics or protestants that the Jehova's Witnesses do not possess. Yet they are hated like hell by other christians and the other sects do not admit the Jehovas Witnesses in the fold (field) of Christendom.

They are taking shelter behind that one name of God and they think that they have achieved something very superior.while it is not so. I have seen their good organisation, i.e. the Tower Society. It is a splinter group of the main christian faith.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 
 I have noticed some interesting things. I knew a few Jehovas Witnesses. I noticed somethings good in them. But lately I have understood some very weak points too. I had praised the JW's in front of a friend of mine who had much more actual experience of the JW's. I had praised them but he stopped me and said that they are very dangerous (misled) sect or he said something to the effect that they were not really good at all.
 
 Now I am learning from robin if robin is at all a JW. I have seen few JW's. They do too much research into the bible OT and NT. They have bible pages marked with cross references so much that nearly every page and every line is marked.
 
 I found them peaceful and very hard working organised people. But the problem now at hand is: There is a name of God. Surely it must be in different languages. In English it may be called God. In Hindi Parmatama. In Persian KHuda. In Arabic it is called Allah. So what difference does it make if He is called by different names in different languages? The God is the same One God, the creator of the heavens and earth.
 
 But the whole building or tower that is built by the JW's is resting on the name of God as Jehova as if it cannot be anything else. That is their absolute weakness, I mean a very hollow base. They have revolved the whole religion around one word "Jehova" and built the whole theory of their religion on that. That is not fair. There are many other spiritual things to be considered.
 
 Perhaps they think that one word Jehova will do miracles. That they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. At this stage, robin is busy making a vocabulary of words in new and old araimic. What is the use of teaching us the deep meaning of things (words) such as "begotten" and "Worship" etc.

Perhaps they think that Jesus is not God and it may be some diversion / achievment for them. But in the next breath robin said that Jesus was a smaller (lesser) God. The JW's have all the ills of the general christians such as Jesus dying on the cross, then calling the instrument of death as a stake (not cross) then believing that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. Then saying that he came back to life after death. Then believing in the original sin. There is hardly anything of the R. Catholics or protestants that the Jehova's Witnesses do not possess. Yet they are hated like hell by other christians and the other sects do not admit the Jehovas Witnesses in the fold (field) of Christendom.

They are taking shelter behind that one name of God and they think that they have achieved something very superior.while it is not so. I have seen their good organisation, i.e. the Tower Society. It is a splinter group of the main christian faith.

 
Yes and it is the safest place to be:-
 
Ezekiel 36:23
And I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned among the nations, which YOU profaned in the midst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among YOU before their eyes.
 
The nations are being put on notice by Jehovah God that he is coming in Judgement very soon! 


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 9:25am
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by mariyah

 
Thank you Andalus. The section of Christianity that Robin states he/she belongs to only recognizes one feast, that of Nisan 4, where all of them gather in congregation to "memorialize" the supposed death of Jesus. It is at this ceremony that they pass bread and wine to the congregation, but only those who are of the 144,000 people that will be the only ones to go to heaven can eat of this bread and wine. Doesn't that follow a ritual form  of worship and is not that a prescribed ceremony? How does that differ? 
 
1
IT IS NISAN 14TH.
 
2
The Prophet Jesus commanded it to be done, so if one does not do it one does not except him as a prophet or messenger of God:-
 
Luke 22:19-20
Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
 
thus is it not wrong to do as ALLAh commanded it to be done via his Prophet!
[/QUOTE]
 
Your convoluted explanation is really beyond me when I realize that you are unable to provide a single, solid rational case for your beliefs, inluding why my belief's are wrong.
 
Robin: You were instruced by your prophet by Allah to commit idolatry through act A, and this is what idolatry is (her definition placed here).
 
Mariyah: Well you beliefs have an "act A" that also constitutes a form of worship which is in your defintiion of idolatry.
 
Robin: But Jesus commended this, so it is ok.
 
 
Mariyah caught Robin in the fallacy of special pleading. Robin's weak definition of idolatry (which I have clearly shown to be weak through exmaples I have provided in the particualr contribution) is too general and not specific enough.
 
 
Robin attempts to deflect this by telling us all that Jesus commanded it.
 
The problem is that I could be an athiest or a Jew, and state, "proove that Jesus was a prophet or had authority to make such a command". The issue that Robin has tried to sneak in here is not about any definition of idolatry, but it is a strawman fallacy, because now she is saying that if you are given certain commands by an establishhed authority, then you can commit some form of idolatry according to her given definition and you are ok, thus circumventing her abuse of a special pleading fallacy caught by Mariyah (Robin has traded a case of special pleading for a sneaky strawman fallacy). Robin, you are trying to be "slick", which speaks volumes about your intellectual honesty. Instead of just drinking your sect's "coolaid", and taking their bait hook, line, and sinker, why not adhere to intellectual honesty and learn something from these discussions. If you have to adhere, consistantly, to rhetorical fallacies as a way to prove you point, then either you belief system has flaws, or you are not as educated in your belief system as you would like to be. 
Allahu 'alim 


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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 06 July 2008 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by mariyah

 
Thank you Andalus. The section of Christianity that Robin states he/she belongs to only recognizes one feast, that of Nisan 4, where all of them gather in congregation to "memorialize" the supposed death of Jesus. It is at this ceremony that they pass bread and wine to the congregation, but only those who are of the 144,000 people that will be the only ones to go to heaven can eat of this bread and wine. Doesn't that follow a ritual form  of worship and is not that a prescribed ceremony? How does that differ? 
 
1
IT IS NISAN 14TH.
 
2
The Prophet Jesus commanded it to be done, so if one does not do it one does not except him as a prophet or messenger of God:-
 
Luke 22:19-20
Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
 
thus is it not wrong to do as ALLAh commanded it to be done via his Prophet!
 
Your convoluted explanation is really beyond me when I realize that you are unable to provide a single, solid rational case for your beliefs, inluding why my belief's are wrong.
 
Robin: You were instruced by your prophet by Allah to commit idolatry through act A, and this is what idolatry is (her definition placed here).
 
Mariyah: Well you beliefs have an "act A" that also constitutes a form of worship which is in your defintiion of idolatry.
 
Robin: But Jesus commended this, so it is ok.
 
 
Mariyah caught Robin in the fallacy of special pleading. Robin's weak definition of idolatry (which I have clearly shown to be weak through exmaples I have provided in the particualr contribution) is too general and not specific enough.
 
 
Robin attempts to deflect this by telling us all that Jesus commanded it.
 
The problem is that I could be an athiest or a Jew, and state, "proove that Jesus was a prophet or had authority to make such a command". The issue that Robin has tried to sneak in here is not about any definition of idolatry, but it is a strawman fallacy, because now she is saying that if you are given certain commands by an establishhed authority, then you can commit some form of idolatry according to her given definition and you are ok, thus circumventing her abuse of a special pleading fallacy caught by Mariyah (Robin has traded a case of special pleading for a sneaky strawman fallacy). Robin, you are trying to be "slick", which speaks volumes about your intellectual honesty. Instead of just drinking your sect's "coolaid", and taking their bait hook, line, and sinker, why not adhere to intellectual honesty and learn something from these discussions. If you have to adhere, consistantly, to rhetorical fallacies as a way to prove you point, then either you belief system has flaws, or you are not as educated in your belief system as you would like to be. 
Allahu 'alim 
[/QUOTE]
 
 
You claim Jesus as your prophet then do not do as he commands in the power of Allah and by the will of Allah:-
 
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.
 
Daniel 7:14
And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
 
Matthew 11:27
All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son but the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father but the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.
 
Ephesians 1:21
far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.
 
Philippians 2:9
For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,
 

When Jesus gave the command to celebrate the Lord's Evening Meal (as above) and those who claim to be his followers do not do it, than they do not do the will of Allah they stand against Allah because as Jesus said himself, he has been given "all authority" by Allah, so his command do something, it must to be done it is the will of Allah, thus cannot be idolatry!

 
Then you deny your own prophet!  
 
You need to understand the Bible better as you make your points with no support from scripture, thus they are not of much worth!


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 July 2008 at 11:32pm
 
 robin, your post:
Daniel 7:14
And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
 
 
About whom daniel is speaking? It is not about Jesus. There is no name of Jesus in it. You cannot attach every good thing to Jesus without proof.
 
 robin please tell me when was Jesus given any rulership, dignity and kingdom? We do  not see any sign of it in the bible NT. All we see is that he had no place to rest. He said that a prophet is never respected in his own area. That means he was considering himself as a prophet only and people believed him as a prophet of God.
 
 He never proclaimed himself as a god and did not preach a single day that he should be worshipped or that he was a small god. He did not have any government or office. Will you admit it please?
 
 
  Ephesians 1:21
far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. 
 
 Unless it is something secret, or supposed, or wishful thinking or metaphorical, we do not see any government or authority had been given to Jesus..... These are perhaps the words of Saul of Tarsus (an enemy of Jesus). WE could not take anything less than from Jesus himself....
 
 
Philippians 2:9
For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,
 
 The remark is same as above. You suppose or imagine that Jesus was exalted to a very superior position. Well and good. But please remain in some limits with your flying thoughts.
 


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 10:00am

robin, your post:

Daniel 7:14

And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

 

 

About whom daniel is speaking? It is not about Jesus. There is no name of Jesus in it. You cannot attach every good thing to Jesus without proof.

 

 robin please tell me when was Jesus given any rulership, dignity and kingdom? We do  not see any sign of it in the bible NT. All we see is that he had no place to rest. He said that a prophet is never respected in his own area. That means he was considering himself as a prophet only and people believed him as a prophet of God.

 

 He never proclaimed himself as a god and did not preach a single day that he should be worshipped or that he was a small god. He did not have any government or office. Will you admit it please?

 

THE PROPHETIC BOOK OF DANIEL ITSELF SHOWS THAT ONE TO BE THE “SON OF MAN” TO WHOM ARE GIVEN “RULERSHIP AND DIGNITY AND KINGDOM, THAT THE PEOPLES, NATIONAL GROUPS AND LANGUAGES SHOULD ALL SERVE EVEN HIM.” (DAN 7:13, 14) JESUS’ OWN PROPHECY, IN WHICH THE REFERENCE TO “THE APPOINTED TIMES OF THE NATIONS” OCCURS, POINTS DEFINITELY TOWARD CHRIST JESUS’ EXERCISE OF SUCH WORLD DOMINATION AS GOD’S CHOSEN KING, THE HEIR OF THE DAVIDIC DYNASTY. (MTT 24:30, 31; 25:31-34; LUK 21:27-31, 36) THUS, THE SYMBOLIC STUMP, REPRESENTING GOD’S RETENTION OF THE SOVEREIGN RIGHT TO EXERCISE WORLD DOMINATION IN “THE KINGDOM OF MANKIND,” WAS DUE TO SPROUT AGAIN IN HIS SON’S KINGDOM.—PS 89:27, 35-37.

 

FOLLOWING THE OVERTHROW OF THE LAST KING TO SIT ON “JEHOVAH’S THRONE” IN JERUSALEM (1CHON 29:23), THE PROPHET DANIEL WAS GIVEN A VISION DESCRIBING THE FUTURE APPOINTMENT OF GOD’S OWN SON TO SERVE AS KING. JEHOVAH’S POSITION STANDS OUT CLEARLY WHEN HE, AS THE ANCIENT OF DAYS, GRANTS RULERSHIP TO HIS SON. THE ACCOUNT STATES: “I KEPT ON BEHOLDING IN THE VISIONS OF THE NIGHT, AND, SEE THERE! WITH THE CLOUDS OF THE HEAVENS SOMEONE LIKE A SON OF MAN HAPPENED TO BE COMING; AND TO THE ANCIENT OF DAYS HE GAINED ACCESS, AND THEY BROUGHT HIM UP CLOSE EVEN BEFORE THAT ONE. AND TO HIM THERE WERE GIVEN RULERSHIP AND DIGNITY AND KINGDOM, THAT THE PEOPLES, NATIONAL GROUPS AND LANGUAGES SHOULD ALL SERVE EVEN HIM. HIS RULERSHIP IS AN INDEFINITELY LASTING RULERSHIP THAT WILL NOT PASS AWAY, AND HIS KINGDOM ONE THAT WILL NOT BE BROUGHT TO RUIN.” (DAN 7:13, 14) A COMPARISON OF THIS TEXT WITH MATTHEW 26:63, 64 LEAVES NO DOUBT THAT THE “SON OF MAN” IN DANIEL’S VISION IS JESUS CHRIST. HE GAINS ACCESS TO JEHOVAH’S PRESENCE AND IS GIVEN RULERSHIP.—COMPARE PS 2:8, 9; MTT 28:18.

FINALLY JESUS WAS PUT UNDER OATH BY THE HIGH PRIEST AND QUESTIONED AS TO WHETHER HE WAS THE CHRIST THE SON OF GOD. WHEN JESUS ANSWERED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE AND ALLUDED TO THE PROPHECY AT DANIEL 7:13, THE HIGH PRIEST RIPPED HIS GARMENTS AND CALLED UPON THE COURT TO FIND JESUS GUILTY OF BLASPHEMY.

 

 

 

  Ephesians 1:21

far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. 

 

 Unless it is something secret, or supposed, or wishful thinking or metaphorical, we do not see any government or authority had been given to Jesus..... These are perhaps the words of Saul of Tarsus (an enemy of Jesus). WE could not take anything less than from Jesus himself....

 

HE IS ABOVE THEM BUT THEY DO NOT ACCKNOLADGE IT AND WILL NOT UNTIL:-

 

2 THESSALONIANS 1:76-10

BUT, TO YOU WHO SUFFER TRIBULATION, RELIEF ALONG WITH US AT THE REVELATION OF THE LORD JESUS FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS POWERFUL ANGELS 8 IN A FLAMING FIRE, AS HE BRINGS VENGEANCE UPON THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT OUR LORD JESUS. 9 THESE VERY ONES WILL UNDERGO THE JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT OF EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM BEFORE THE LORD AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS STRENGTH, 10 AT THE TIME HE COMES TO BE GLORIFIED IN CONNECTION WITH HIS HOLY ONES AND TO BE REGARDED IN THAT DAY WITH WONDER IN CONNECTION WITH ALL THOSE WHO EXERCISED FAITH, BECAUSE THE WITNESS WE GAVE MET WITH FAITH AMONG YOU.

 

 

Philippians 2:9

For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,

 

 The remark is same as above. You suppose or imagine that Jesus was exalted to a very superior position. Well and good. But please remain in some limits with your flying thoughts.

 

AS IT SAYS IN PSALM 2:-

PSALM 2:2-9

THE KINGS OF EARTH TAKE THEIR STAND AND HIGH OFFICIALS THEMSELVES HAVE MASSED TOGETHER AS ONE AGAINST JEHOVAH AND AGAINST HIS ANOINTED ONE,  3 [SAYING:] “LET US TEAR THEIR BANDS APART AND CAST THEIR CORDS AWAY FROM US!”  4 THE VERY ONE SITTING IN THE HEAVENS WILL LAUGH; JEHOVAH HIMSELF WILL HOLD THEM IN DERISION.  5 AT THAT TIME HE WILL SPEAK TO THEM IN HIS ANGER AND IN HIS HOT DISPLEASURE HE WILL DISTURB THEM,  6 [SAYING:] “I, EVEN I, HAVE INSTALLED MY KING UPON ZION, MY HOLY MOUNTAIN.”  7 LET ME REFER TO THE DECREE OF JEHOVAH; HE HAS SAID TO ME: “YOU ARE MY SON; I, TODAY, I HAVE BECOME YOUR FATHER.  8 ASK OF ME, THAT I MAY GIVE NATIONS AS YOUR INHERITANCE AND THE ENDS OF THE EARTH AS YOUR OWN POSSESSION.  9 YOU WILL BREAK THEM WITH AN IRON SCEPTER, AS THOUGH A POTTER’S VESSEL YOU WILL DASH THEM TO PIECES.”



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 1:30am
 
 robin, please be brief. Tell me, did Jesus have any authority or kingdom or rulership or commanded any place? Do not go back to daniel etc. You have the biography of Jesus in the four gospels. Tell me did Jesus ever was a ruler or a king? Did he have authority at all while he was here on earth??
 
 Be brief please. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 9:17am
 
Asalaamu alaikum:
 
I have found the following information on the book of Daniel, It is interesting how it is categorized. It is not of the Torah:
 

Book of Daniel

General Information

Daniel, a book in the Old Testament of the Bible, is listed with the Major Prophets by Christians and with the Writings (Ketuvim) by the Jews. It comprises six stories of the trials of Daniel and his companions while they served at the court of Babylon, as well as four visions of the end of the world. The book takes its name, not from the author, who is actually unknown, but from its hero, a 6th century Jew. Internal evidence indicates that the book was written during the Maccabean wars (167 - 164 BC).

Daniel is a form of Apocalyptic Literature rather than prophecy; it is cast in symbolic imagery about the end of time and is attributed to an earlier authority. The book was intended to encourage Jews in the face of religious persecution by the Hellenistic kingdom of the Seleucids and their Jewish sympathizers. Daniel contains the only certain Old Testament reference to bodily Resurrection, presents a form of the Son of Man tradition influential in the Gospel traditions about Jesus Christ, and was a primary source for the visions of the New Testament Book of Revelation.

found at http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/daniel.htm - http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/daniel.htm

And from the Jewish encylopedia, a differing view, you may go to the link to see all the information: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=34&letter=D

The Book of Daniel was written during the persecutions of Israel by the Syrian king Antiochus Epiphanes. This assertion is supported by the following data: The kingdom which is symbolized by the he goat (viii. 5 et seq.) is expressly named as the "kingdom of Yawan"—that is, the Grecian kingdom (viii. 21) the great horn being its first king, Alexander the Great (definitely stated in Seder "Olam R. xxx.), and the little horn Antiochus Epiphanes (175-164). This kingdom was to persecute the host of the saints "unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings" (viii. 14, R. V.); that is, "half-days," or 1,150 days; and Epiphanes did, in fact, profane the sanctuary in Jerusalem for about that length of time, from Kislew 15, 168, to Kislew 25,165 (I Macc. i. 57, iv. 52). The little horn described in Dan. viii. 9-12, 23-25 has the same general characteristics as the little horn in vii. 8, 20; hence the same ruler is designated in both passages. The well-known passage ix. 23-27 also points to the same period. The first and imperative rule in interpreting it is to begin the period of the seventy times seven units (A. V. "seventy weeks") with the first period of seven (ix. 25), and to let the second period, the "sixty-two times seven units," follow this; forif this second period (the sixty-two weeks) be reckoned as beginning again from the very beginning, the third period, the "one week," must be carried back in the same way. The context demands, furthermore, that the origin of the prediction concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem be sought in Jer. xxv. 11-13 and the parallel passage, ib. xxix. 10. The "anointed," the "prince," mentioned after the first seven times seven units, must be Cyrus, who is called the anointed of the Lord in Isa. xlv. 1 also. He concluded the first seven weeks of years by issuing the decree of liberation, and the time that elapsed between the Chaldean destruction of Jerusalem (586) and the year 538 was just about forty-nine years. The duration of the sixty-two times seven units (434 years) does not correspond with the time 538-171 (367 years); but the chronological knowledge of that age was not very exact. The Seder 'Olam Zuṭa (ed. Meyer, p. 104) computed the Persian rule to have lasted fifty-two years. This is all the more evident as the last period of seven units must include the seven years 171-165 (see "Rev. Et. Juives," xix. 202 et seq.). This week of years began with the murder of an anointed one (compare Lev. iv. 3 et seq. on the anointing of the priest)—namely, the legitimate high priest Onias III.—and it was in the second half of this week of years that the Temple of the Lord was desecrated by an abomination—the silver altar erected by Antiochus Epiphanes in place of the Lord's altar for burnt offering (see I Macc. i. 54).

Genesis of the Book of Daniel.

Stories undoubtedly existed of a person by the name of Daniel, who was known to Ezekiel as a wise man. Tradition then ascribed to this wise man all the traits which Israel could attribute to its heroes. He was exalted as the pattern of piety and faithfulness; and it may also have been said that he interpreted dreams, read cryptograms, and foreshadowed the beginning of the Messianic kingdom. In any case his name may have played the same rôle in literature as that of Solomon or that of Enoch; and as one author ascribed his book, "Koheleth," to Solomon, so another author may have made Daniel responsible for his. As to the origin of his prophecies, it would probably be unjust to say that they were inventions. They may have been suggested by the author's enthusiastic study of the past history of God's people. He utilized the past to unlock the future. This is evident from ix. 2, where the author says that he had paid attention to the prophecy of Jeremiah concerning the seventy years, which prophecy became the basis for a new prophecy. This shows that the author was merely a disciple of the Prophets, one who reproduced the prophecies of his masters. His book, indeed, is not included in the section Nebiim.

 
 
[QUOTE=minuteman] 
 robin, your post:
Daniel 7:14
And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.
 
 
About whom daniel is speaking? It is not about Jesus. There is no name of Jesus in it. You cannot attach every good thing to Jesus without proof.
 
 robin please tell me when was Jesus given any rulership, dignity and kingdom? We do  not see any sign of it in the bible NT. All we see is that he had no place to rest. He said that a prophet is never respected in his own area. That means he was considering himself as a prophet only and people believed him as a prophet of God.
 
 He never proclaimed himself as a god and did not preach a single day that he should be worshipped or that he was a small god. He did not have any government or office. Will you admit it please?
 
 
  Ephesians 1:21
far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come. 
 
 Unless it is something secret, or supposed, or wishful thinking or metaphorical, we do not see any government or authority had been given to Jesus..... These are perhaps the words of Saul of Tarsus (an enemy of Jesus). WE could not take anything less than from Jesus himself....
 
 
Philippians 2:9
For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,
 
 The remark is same as above. You suppose or imagine that Jesus was exalted to a very superior position. Well and good. But please remain in some limits with your flying thoughts.
 
[/QUOTE]

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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 09 July 2008 at 7:27pm
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 robin, please be brief. Tell me, did Jesus have any authority or kingdom or rulership or commanded any place? Do not go back to daniel etc. You have the biography of Jesus in the four gospels. Tell me did Jesus ever was a ruler or a king? Did he have authority at all while he was here on earth??
 
 Be brief please. Thanks.
 

Matthew 28:18

And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: All authority has been given* me in heaven and on the earth.

*”Given” passed tense

 

Matthew 11:27

All things have been* delivered to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son but the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father but the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.

*” have been” passed tense.

 

John 3:35

The Father loves the Son and has given* all things into his hand.

*”Given” passed tense

 

John 17:2

according as you have given* him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life.

*”Given” passed tense

 

Luke 10:22

All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one [knows] but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him.”

*” have been” passed tense.



Posted By: Ariff
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 10:23am

Al-Kaafiroon (The Disbelievers)

 Say (O Muhammad () to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!
 I worship not that which you worship,
 Nor will you worship that which I worship.
 And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
 Nor will you worship that which I worship.
 To you be your religion, and to me my religion



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 28 September 2008 at 11:37pm
 
 robin, please come to the real terms. Do not talk in parables. jesus said that all authority was given to him by his father in heaven & on earth. But I was asking you, did Jesus have any authority over anything here in this world? Practically nil.
 
 The good example of authority is Moses a.s and muhammad s.a.w.s. Did Jesus have anything like that? Do not copy paste and waste your energy.
 
Jesus admitted himself that his kingdom was not of this world. That is the end of all. So why are you trying to put up wrong things and trying to spread wrong news? You should say that Jesus never had any authority over anything even for one day here.
 
 What will happen in later times is yet to be seen. You did not admit the truth but rather tried to linger on with the falsehood. It is far better to admit the truth, please.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 12:20pm

 Jesus said in Mathew 28:18-20 ".....All authority (from GOD) has been give to me in heaven and on the earth...." it clearly shows that Jesus had a stronger or higher power over him.  One has to ask himself a very simple question here:  How can GOD say that GOD had given him authority?  It doesn't make any sense, does it?


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 September 2008 at 6:04pm
Do you have power over your words?
 
Jesus was GOD's WORD made flesh.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 1:42pm
Originally posted by believer

Do you have power over your words?
 
Jesus was GOD's WORD made flesh.


My first question to the believer about John 1:1 is this, is this Jesus speaking? The answer is no, this is NOT Jesus speaking! This is supposedly the disciple John writing this here not Jesus! So what we have is an interpretation of what one man thought! Why cant Christians get us Jesus saying in the beginning the word was with God and the word was God, why didn’t Jesus ever say this?! So Christians now want us to believe Jesus is God because of what a man said? A man’s interpretation! The Bible itself testifies that the disciples often miss-understood Jesus and didn’t understand him!

So John 1:1 does not prove anything, it is not Jesus speaking.

I could care less about the interpretation of the New Testament authors. I want to see what Jesus said about himself directly. 

Plus others might disagree with you believer regarding John 1:1...

http:// http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85 - www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85





Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 01 October 2008 at 9:39pm
 
 Word cannot be made into flesh. Where is the flesh now? Only John knew about the word made flesh. The other three important writers of gospel, mathew, mark and Luke did not know about this all important message. It proves that this message is not reliable about word and flesh.
 
 God did not say so. Jesus did not say so. Why did only John say it?


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 02 October 2008 at 7:10am
LOL!!  Is the Quran GOD's speaking?  Why did the Quran have to go through an angel to get to Mohammad?  We do not have the proof!!
 
Allah - angel - Mohammad - scribes - Quran
 
God - Disciples and Apostles - Holy Bible
 
How do you know Matthew, Mark and Luke didn't know about it?  LOL!!  They just didn't write about it.
 
GOD can create life out of dust- GOD can create dust!!  There is a really great joke about this- Scientists say, "We can create life from dust".  GOD says to them get your own dust!!
 
You are saying GOD is incapable of forming life from His Word?


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 02 October 2008 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by believer

 
God - Disciples and Apostles - Holy Bible
 
How do you know Matthew, Mark and Luke didn't know about it?  LOL!!  They just didn't write about it.
 


 There is enough proof to prove that these above authors are not original authors of Gospels.

 Do you know that?

"The gospels are all priestly forgeries over a century after their pretended dates." (Joseph Wheless, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, Acharya S)

The books [canonical gospels] are not heard of till 150 A.D., that is, till Jesus had been dead nearly a hundred and twenty years. No writer before 150 A.D. makes the slightest mention of them."  (Bronson, C. Keeler, A Short History of the Bible)

"The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the use of these Gospels had they existed in his time. He makes more than 300 quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the four Gospels. (The Book Your Church Doesn’t Want You to Read, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Tim%20C.%20Leedom&rank=-relevance,+availability,-daterank - - Leedom )

“Not a single Gospel was written down at the time of Jesus, they were all written long after his earthly mission had come to an end” (Maurice Bucaille, The Bible, the Quran, and Science p. 127)

“Each of the four canonical Gospels is religious proclamation in the form of a largely fictional narrative. Christians have never been reluctant to write fiction about Jesus, and we must remember that our four canonical Gospels are only the cream of a large and varied literature” (Rendal Helms, Gospel Fictions p.11)

 




Posted By: Friendship
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 2:51pm

Assalamu alaikum.

My brother roben.

Please know that Allah called mankind Muslims in the first instance. Allah called the children of jacob, Children of Israel after they named him Israel -one who wrestles with Allah. Allah told Muhammad that there are some some people with whom He had a Covenant calling themselves Nasaara. The Covenant was that taken with Allah from Noah to Abraham and Moses that there is only One Allah - I am-. The name Nasaara was what was translated to mean Christian. These I think were the Christians from Najran (Yaman) who came to the holy Prophet after the conquest of Makka. They later on accepted Islam. Before the building of the temple of Solomon all prophets were facing the Ka'aba to pray. Do not be deceived by the deceivers.      

Friendship


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 October 2008 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by robin

WHY CHRISTIANS REJECT THE KAABA.

 

The reason is based of the teachings of The Prophet Moses (see below) in the first instance then on how Christians followed the same teaching.  

 

This shrine is the Kaaba, a cube-shaped structure normally covered by a large curtain of black brocade and containing the sacred Black Stone. This stone, which Muslims believe was given to Adam for the forgiveness of sins upon his expulsion from Eden, was then supposedly white.   In Muslim tradition the original Kaaba perished in Noah’s Flood, but the Black Stone was preserved and later given to Abraham by the angel Gabriel, after which Abraham rebuilt the Kaaba and restored the Black Stone to its proper place. It is in the direction of the Kaaba—according to Islam the holiest place on earth—that Muslims orient themselves in prayer five times a day.   The Quran commands the worship of the Kaaba stone, the pilgrimage to Mecca, the fast during the month of Ramadhan.

 

The Law of Moses says stone must not be worshiped!:-

Leviticus 26:1

“‘YOU must not make valueless gods for yourselves, and YOU must not set up a carved image or a sacred pillar for yourselves, and YOU MUST NOT PUT A STONE AS A SHOWPIECE IN YOUR LAND IN ORDER TO BOW DOWN TOWARD IT; for I am Jehovah YOUR God.

 

  «لا تَصْنَعُوا لَكُمْ اوْثَانا وَلا تُقِيمُوا لَكُمْ تِمْثَالا مَنْحُوتا اوْ نَصَبا وَلا تَجْعَلُوا فِي ارْضِكُمْ حَجَرا مُصَّوَرا لِتَسْجُدُوا لَهُ. لانِّي انَا

الرَّبُّ الَهُكُمْ.

Deuteronomy 4:28

And there YOU will have to serve gods, THE PRODUCT OF THE HANDS OF MAN, wood and STONE, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.

 

  وَتَصْنَعُونَ هُنَاكَ آلِهَةً صَنْعَةَ أَيْدِي النَّاسِ مِنْ خَشَبٍ وَحَجَرٍ مِمَّا لا يُبْصِرُ وَلا يَسْمَعُ وَلا يَأْكُلُ وَلا يَشُمُّ.

 

Deuteronomy 29:17-18

“...and you used to see their disgusting things and their dungy idols, wood and STONE, silver and gold, that were with them;) 18 that there may not be among YOU a man or a woman or a family or a tribe whose heart is turning today away from Jehovah our God to go and serve the gods of those nations; that there may not be among YOU a root bearing the fruit of a poisonous plant and wormwood.

 

  وَرَأَيْتُمْ أَرْجَاسَهُمْ وَأَصْنَامَهُمُ التِي عِنْدَهُمْ مِنْ خَشَبٍ وَحَجَرٍ وَفِضَّةٍ وَذَهَبٍ

  لِئَلا يَكُونَ فِيكُمْ رَجُلٌ أَوِ امْرَأَةٌ أَوْ عَشِيرَةٌ أَوْ سِبْطٌ قَلبُهُ اليَوْمَ مُنْصَرِفٌ عَنِ الرَّبِّ إِلهِنَا لِكَيْ يَذْهَبَ لِيَعْبُدَ آلِهَةَ تِلكَ الأُمَمِ. لِئَلا يَكُونَ فِيكُمْ أَصْلٌ يُثْمِرُ عَلقَماً وَأَفْسَنْتِيناً.

 

 

Does not the following teach humans to break God’s Law on the worship of Idols?

Su 2:125

Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the Station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Ismail, that they should sanctify My house for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or Prostrate themselves (therein in prayer). … 127  And remember Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of the House (with this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing."

 

Su 5:100

Allah made the Kaba, the Sacred House, as an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them: That ye may know that Allah hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

 

In The Bible Moses says:-

Deuteronomy 4:25

“In case you become father to sons and grandsons and YOU have resided a long time in the land and do act ruinously and do make a CARVED IMAGE, A FORM OF ANYTHING, and do commit evil in the eyes of Jehovah your God so as to offend him ...”

 

 «إِذَا وَلدْتُمْ أَوْلاداً وَأَحفَاداً وَأَطَلتُمُ الزَّمَانَ فِي الأَرْضِ وَفَسَدْتُمْ وَصَنَعْتُمْ تِمْثَالاً مَنْحُوتاً صُورَةَ شَيْءٍ مَا وَفَعَلتُمُ الشَّرَّ فِي عَيْنَيِ الرَّبِّ إِلهِكُمْ لِإِغَاظَتِهِ

 

1 Corinthians 10:14

Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from IDOLATRY. 

  لِذَلِكَ يَا أَحِبَّائِي اهْرُبُوا مِنْ عِبَادَةِ الأَوْثَانِ.

1 John 5:21

Little children, guard yourselves from IDOLS.

  أَيُّهَا الأَوْلاَدُ احْفَظُوا أَنْفُسَكُمْ مِنَ الأَصْنَامِ. آمِينَ.

 
 
 
Robin,
I am sure by now you have realized that Muslims don't worship the Kaba. The black stone in it neither what we worship. Its is like a marker, where we are told the first house of worship to the One God was erected. As a universal symbol of Oneness believers face toward it, when they bow down in front of their Creator.
I see you equate this practice to idol worshipping, which is not the case. A Muslim like myself here in the USA never think of the Black stone or the Kabba as an object of worship when I bow down in my five daily Salath to my maker, God Almighty.
 
I would like your opinion on the following quotes from the OT.

Genesis 35:14 Jacob set up a stone pillar at the place where God had talked with him, and he poured out a drink offering on it.

Genesis 6:12 So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

 
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 7:19am

LOL!!  Because we don't have a physical copy!!  If you read the Bible you will see proofs of a very early established church and writings!!

 Galatians 1
18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. 19I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother. 20I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. 21Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. 22I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23They only heard the report: "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy." 24And they praised God because of me.

Clement of Rome---96 AD

In Part A of this chapter we saw that I Corinthians was written in 55 AD. Forty years later in about 96 AD, a man named Clement, a bishop in Rome, wrote a letter to the church at Corinth just as Paul had done. In that letter he writes,

"Read your letter from the blessed Apostle Paul again."

What letter is Clement referring to? He is referring to I Corinthians, the very letter in which the Doctrinal Gospel was written down for the first time, and he quotes from I Corinthians 15:20 saying,

 Polycarp's letter to Philippi---107 AD

Polycarp was born in 69 or 70 AD in Asia (now Turkey). He heard the Gospel from the Apostle John who lived in Turkey in his old age, and according to Irenaeus, Polycarp "had had familiar intercourse with many who had seen Christ." In his later years he became Bishop of the church in Smyrna, about 40 miles north of Ephesus. Smyrna still exists today as the town of Izmir, Turkey with about 200,000 people.

Sometime around 107 AD, he wrote a letter to the church at Philippi---a church started by Paul in 49 or 50 AD.

In his letter he refers to "the apostles who brought us the Gospel, and the prophets who foretold the coming of the Lord (the Messiah)". At least three times he mentions Paul by name, as well as stressing the fact that Paul had preached to the Philippians and then written to them. He calls Paul's letter to the Ephesians "scripture"---the same title used for the Torah of Moses---as we see in the following quotation:

"I have no doubt you are well versed in Holy Scripture...it says there, `Do not be angry to the point of sin; do not let the sun go down on your indignation'. [quoted from Ephesians 4:26] The happy man is he who keeps this in mind...May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Jesus Christ himself, the Son of God, help you to grow in faith and truth.

"In him (Jesus the Messiah), endurance went so far as to face even death for our sins...Though you never saw him for yourselves, yet you believed in him...well knowing that it is by grace you are saved, not of your own doing. [quoted from Ephesians 2:8]

The sections in boldfaced type show that he firmly believed in the Doctrinal Gospel, and in this short letter of seven pages, he quotes from the Gospel according to Matthew, Acts, Romans, I Corinthians, Galatians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, I Peter, and I John, as well as Ephesians, for a total of 10 of the 27 New Testament books.

These ten books, originating in places as far apart as Palestine, Turkey, Greece, and Rome, were well-known to Polycarp only ten or 15 years after the death of John the Apostle, again demonstrating the early and wide dissemination of the New Testament scriptures.

The first council was during the time of Paul.  The Church was established.

Acts 15

The Council at Jerusalem
 1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 05 October 2008 at 3:49pm

 Response to Robin

 THE BLACK STONE IS NOT WORSHIPPED BY MUSLIMS

 
The Black Stone - Hajar al- Aswad - is NOT mentioned in the Quran.  The Black Stone is located about five feet from the ground on the East corner of the Kaaba (this corner is known as "al-rukn al-Aswad").

While there are traditions about kissing or touching the Stone, its real significance is as marker of the point at which one starts the Tawaaf (circumambulation of the Kaaba as part of hajj or omra.)  Even the traditions which talk about kissing or touching the stone are VERY CLEAR that the Stone is JUST A STONE!

BUKHARI:

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667: 

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:  Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."  

Volume 2, Book 26, Number 675:

Narrated Zaid bin Aslam from his father who said:  "Umar bin Al-Khattab addressed the Corner (Black Stone) saying, 'BY ALLAH! I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT NOR HARM. Had I not seen the Prophet touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you.' Then he kissed it and said, 'There is no reason for us to do Ramal (in Tawaf) except that we wanted to show off before the pagans, and now Allah has destroyed them.' 'Umar added, '(Nevertheless), the Prophet did that and we do not want to leave it (i.e. Ramal).'"

MUSLIM:

Book 007, Number 2914: 

Abdullah b. Sarjis reported:  I saw the bald one, i. e. 'Umar b. Khattib (Allah be pleased with him). kissing the Stone and saying: BY ALLAH. I AM KISSING WITH FULL CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND THAT YOU CAN NEITHER DO ANY HARM NOR GOOD; and if I had not seen Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you. I would not have kissed you. The rest of the hadith is the same.

The Stone is not be worshipped or regarded as anything but a marker.


===============================================

At hajj time you are actually unlikely to see the Black Stone: Masjid Al-Haram is just two crowded.  There is a line on the floor of the Masjid to tell you where the line of the Black Stone is.  Many hajis must perform Tawaaf NOT on the Kaaba floor but on the SECOND OR THIRD STORIES of the Majid Al-Haram!

On Levels #2 and #3 there are both marks on the floor and neon lights to show you where to start and stop tawaaf.

The scholars agree that waving in the direction of the Black Stone is sufficient recognition of its location as the start and stop of Tawaaf.

In actuality, waving in direction of the Black Stone is the best you will probably do at hajj time

=================================================

The Black Stone has had an interesting history during the Islamic period.  In 930 AD a ruler of Bahrain - who belonged to a branch of Ismailism known as the Karmatians - sacked Makkah and carried the Black Stone away for some 70 years until it was ransomed.

In the process, the Black Stone was cracked. It is now held together by a silver band.   The fact that Islam was able to function without the Black Stone for 70 years is one of the best illustrations that it is but a marker for Tawaaf - and NOT an object of worship.




Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 3:15am
Isn't the centre of prayer and worship - for Christian and Muslim - the heart ? God looks at the heart - the 'intent' there. We can dress up in white clothes and point in any direction, Christian or Muslim or anyone else, and perform the ritual of prayer. If the heart is not in it, then aren't we just, as Christ said "whited sepulchres" ?
 
The Islamic 'saint' Rabi'a al-Adawiyya: "It is the Lord of the House Whom I need. What have I to do with the House? I need to meet with Him Who said: 'Whoso approaches Me by a span's length I will approach him by the length of a cubit.'  The Ka`ba which I see has no power over me. What does the Ka`ba bring to me?" ....
 
 
I can see that the Ka'ba be a centre of prayer for Muslims - uniting them before God. A good thing.
 
How any of us pray though is really a matter tween each of us and God. God sees the heart. We speak to God from the heart. I've seen Christians argue about idolatry and idol worship too and it was very apparent that one was judging the other - presuming to know what was in the heart of the other when they prayed because of external appearances/perceptions. This is wrong I think. Only God knows what is in the heart of the one who prays.
 
Is idolatry about seeing and believing anything created to be the Creator ? Dunno. I think that's what it means. How many people in their hearts pray to the created and not the Creator ? Think about that one. Don't be coming back saying, "well Christians pray to this, or Muslims pray to that or blah blah blah." Like I said, God alone sees the heart and intent on the one praying. We all need to work on our own prayer lives if we find we have a right, or need to criticise how another may or may not pray to God.
 
Take the plank out of our own eye fore looking the splinter in the eye of another.
 
 


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 11:32am

 To member_profile.asp?PF=60458&FID=7 - Gulliver

 The Prophet Muhamamd (pbuh) said: “The reward of deeds depend upon the intentions, and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended.” - 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, Vol. 8, Book 78, Number 680


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 12:49pm
 
 In Islam, the prayer is obligatory as well as optional (Nawafil). The obligatory prayer is congregational. And it is to be performed by every Muslim. At home and in mosque. The heart business is right but that cannot avert or explain the situation at hand.
 
 Just imagine what would happen if there was no direction to face for the prayers. I am sure there would be havoc and discard, in every house and every village / city.  Mosques will have to be built every where. The various chiefs of the villages would fight for the direction of the mosque to be towards their homes. I wish friends understand the wisdom (Hikmah) in advising (ordering) the correct One direction of prayer. Please leave the heart alone here. That is not the subject.
 
 Did the prophet know that his religion will spread far and wide and people will need guidance about the facing of the people for their prayers? This seems to be a miracle indeed..
 I believe that in Jewish system too, there is a mention about east and west and curtains and tables etc.... Why is that? Would that all be absurd? I hope not.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 1:47pm
I am not suggesting there is anything wrong in the direction people look to pray. It doesn't matter what direction you look to though, if the intention in prayer does not begin and end in the heart. In my opinion and belief.
 
The ritual aspect is about discipline, which is very necessary in the early stages of prayer life. The prayer of the heart develops from this in time. Jesus said, "Pray always." When prayer takes root in the heart - the heart is like a constant living prayer. God is always near hand - in thought and in the heart.
 
You say to leave the heart out of it. If there is not heart in it Minuteman - all your prostrations and directions are worthless. It's a meaningless ritual.
 
Don't get me wrong. It's a very beautiful thing to see Muslims pray together, and in the same direction, and I can see how this encourages a real sense of global unity. But if a person seeks to keep the remembrance of Allah always before him/her - then they should be free to pray anywhere and everywhere - giving the heart itself to God. God comes to to the heart - not the Ka'ba.  With the prayer of the heart - the heart itself expands to hold the whole world and all the concerns of the world. It grows in real compassion as God is compassionate and prays for every soul on the planet. It is enough then to offer the heart to God without litanies. Though I realise I may only be speaking from a Christian perspective.
 
In Catholicism - regular prayer was establised. Daily too. The Catholic Mass is seen as the highest form of prayer. But I won't go into that. People kneel and face in the same direction.
 
I was in a place once where we had something akin to the 'call to prayer'. The first call was at 3AM. Like Jesus praying in the garden when the apostles slept. The night prayer was to worship God and supplicate for the world while 'that same world slept. There were seven prayer times daily. I didn't appreciate that then.
 
I remember once at the 3AM prayer. It was near enough to a form of prostration. I fell asleep. I was mortified.  lol  But my intent was good and I am sure God forgave me and had a smile on His face.
 
The first time I saw a pic of the Ka'ba, I thought it looked a bit like a Borg Cube.
 
I do see and understand and appreciate what you are saying Minuteman - and the 'wisdom' of it. But without the heart and intent  - the ritual is meaningless, dead.  Same in all religions. Well that's my belief anyway.
 
God bless :-)


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 October 2008 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Gulliver

I am not suggesting there is anything wrong in the direction people look to pray. It doesn't matter what direction you look to though, if the intention in prayer does not begin and end in the heart. In my opinion and belief.
 
 
  You are bringing in something which is not the subject matter. Even though you may be right. BHut that is not the subject. But if you are advising that if there is prayer from the heart then it does not matter which way Muslims face for prayer, that will be wrong.
 
 Muslim prayer rules are regulated. There are other orders which tell the Muslims to prayer to Allah from the bottom of their heart...
 
The ritual aspect is about discipline, which is very necessary in the early stages of prayer life. The prayer of the heart develops from this in time. Jesus said, "Pray always." When prayer takes root in the heart - the heart is like a constant living prayer. God is always near hand - in thought and in the heart.
 
You say to leave the heart out of it. If there is not heart in it Minuteman - all your prostrations and directions are worthless. It's a meaningless ritual.
 
 I have to ask  if Islam told Muslims not to pray with the full attention of their heart. If there is no such thing then you should not try to teach something  which Muslims are not doing.
 
 Yes, I have to check about the heart business. The discussion here is about the direction of the Muslim prayers towards Ka'abah. The christians do not have any law and any center of their prayers. Nobody has seen the heart which way it is praying. You have also not discussed about the system of the early Jews, what they used to do.
 
 So the christian may be the odd one out in this matter too. You are trying slowly to divert the subject matter by bringing in your stress on the heart.
 
 
Don't get me wrong. It's a very beautiful thing to see Muslims pray together, and in the same direction, and I can see how this encourages a real sense of global unity. But if a person seeks to keep the remembrance of Allah always before him/her - then they should be free to pray anywhere and everywhere - giving the heart itself to God. God comes to to the heart - not the Ka'ba.  With the prayer of the heart - the heart itself expands to hold the whole world and all the concerns of the world. It grows in real compassion as God is compassionate and prays for every soul on the planet. It is enough then to offer the heart to God without litanies. Though I realise I may only be speaking from a Christian perspective.
 
   Teaching a wrong philosophy here, something of your good wishes cannot be a rule. You are suggesting that if some one prays with true intentions of the heart then it does not matter where he prays. That is meant, in which direction he prays. But there you are wrong. You are challenging God that He gave wrong orders to definitely face the Ka'abah for the daily prayers.
 
 Do you realise that you are teaching something to disobey Allah.
 
 Now I tell you that if any one will not obey Allah and he will pray his daily prayer facing Tokyo, then he need not pray even from his heart. His prayer will never be accepted. I hope you undertand and we may cut down this long dialogue.
 
In Catholicism - regular prayer was establised. Daily too. The Catholic Mass is seen as the highest form of prayer. But I won't go into that. People kneel and face in the same direction.
 
 Thanks for mentioning it. Please tell in which direction the Catholics face. Is it that all their churches face in the same direction? That could be useful.
 
 
I was in a place once where we had something akin to the 'call to prayer'. The first call was at 3AM. Like Jesus praying in the garden when the apostles slept. The night prayer was to worship God and supplicate for the world while 'that same world slept. There were seven prayer times daily. I didn't appreciate that then.
 
 I need not ask who were these people. They must be Muslims. And I can understand your dislikeness of what they were doing.
 
 
 
I remember once at the 3AM prayer. It was near enough to a form of prostration. I fell asleep. I was mortified.  lol  But my intent was good and I am sure God forgave me and had a smile on His face.
 
The first time I saw a pic of the Ka'ba, I thought it looked a bit like a Borg Cube.
 
I do see and understand and appreciate what you are saying Minuteman - and the 'wisdom' of it. But without the heart and intent  - the ritual is meaningless, dead.  Same in all religions. Well that's my belief anyway.
 
God bless :-)
 
 I am surprised. Again the heart? Who said that prayer be without heart and intent? You are making up a false case. If we will face the Ka'abah then our heart will be there with God otherwise  not. Disobedience or lessons for disobedinece will get us nowhere.
 


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 07 October 2008 at 5:09am
Hi Minuteman
 
I am not seeking or trying to make a case. I am not a logician. I just speak from the heart ;-) lol  It's true. I am all heart me. One of my worst faults.
 
I am only expressing opinions Minuteman.
 
"If we will face the Ka'abah then our heart will be there with God otherwise  not."
 
My opinion here is that it is not necessary to face the Ka'ba to have our heart with God. I am sure there are many who face the Ka'ba and their hearts are anywhere but with God, as happens in all religions. They fulfill an obligation - a ritual, for a variety of reasons - fear and/or indoctrination usually.
 
All your musings here do seem to refer to Muslims specifically here and I can see that now. If I pray with my heart wherever I am, I don't believe I am disobeying God by so doing. That's your belief not mine. Jesus did not tell us to face any direction when we pray. He asked we pray from the heart.
 
"Our Father......  etc"
 
Sorry Minute I didn't mean to distract from the topic at hand. I see the purpose of the Ka'ba and discipline in prayer life to achieve one end - direct the heart :-), mind body and soul to God. There was a prescribed method given to Muslims for this. But it's not the only one.
 
All catholic churches do not face in the same direction no. But the people face the front of the churches. Why not go and see one for yourself. Experience it for yourself. You could explain the mosque to me. But nothing beats my having gone to experience it for myself.
 
" I was in a place once where we had something akin to the 'call to prayer'. The first call was at 3AM. Like Jesus praying in the garden when the apostles slept. The night prayer was to worship God and supplicate for the world while 'that same world slept. There were seven prayer times daily. I didn't appreciate that then.
 
 "I need not ask who were these people. They must be Muslims. And I can understand your dislikeness of what they were doing."
 
What an arrogant assumption you make.
 
No Minuteman they were, are not Muslims. They are Christians. And I did not dislike what they were doing at all. I did it too. And I still have the greatest respect for these people and the lives they live. I have not one shred of doubt that Muhammad himself would have felt nothing but respect for them.
 
I will leave this topic Minute. It does seem specifically directed to Muslims and the Ka'ba, and I don't fully understand all of that. I don't know about the history either, so can't comment on that with you.
 
I do see everything you are saying re: the Ka'ba and the prescribed prayers, rituals etc. That this does encourage unity, obedience and a discipline in the spiritual life which is very necessary. Muslims are not the only ones who believe this or have this as part of their religion.
 
If the leader of a village would fight to have a mosque pointing in a certain direction - then he is not fit to be a spiritual leader.
 
I really believe it is a blasphemy and offence to God, certainly the God I believe in, to say that how I pray, not being a Muslim, or not praying in a certain way is 'not acceptable'.  Only the 'shaitan' would put forth such a nonsensical notion. God cannot be put in a box. But then Catholics tried to do that too and that led to madness n mayhem.  
 
God bless :-)


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 4:46pm
Let me say it again that facing in the direction of Kaba is no more than a universal symbol of unity for the believers. People of the book (the Bible) used to pray also in a direction, Jeruselam. We must not forget the fact that Muslims also used to pray toward Jeruselam before God commanded the believers to change their direction when praying toward the Kaba. This according to the Quran was to test the believers in their faith and same time it showed that facing toward either direction was not because we worship either one, but only as a universal symbol of One Ummah or community of believers, a command from God.
2:144 We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a qibla (direction) that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction.
2:143 Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 08 October 2008 at 5:02pm
Thanks for clearing that up Hasan.
 
Next time you pray - say one for me :-) I need all the duas I can get right now :-)
 
Unity is good. That they be One, as we are One.
 
Ut Unum Sint.
 
God bless


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 7:04am

If you don't pray towards Mecca does the pray still reach Allah?



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by believer

If you don't pray towards Mecca does the pray still reach Allah?

 
believer, 
One thing I would like to elaborate before answering your question. That the prayer is only a part of what we are talking about here, the Salath which is more than just a prayer in Islam. It is, in my own understanding a composite act of purification of ones' body and mind, it includes meditation, suplication, worship, devotion, reminders of our covanant with God by reciting different verses of His revealed guidance, exercise, acknowledement of God as the Most High and above All and the self as totally dependant on Him and His Forgiveness and Mercy, prayer, act of graditute, and act of total submission to our maker, show of love to our Creator  and more.
 
Now as far as your question, everything we do is known by God, of course.  And of course our prayer still reaches Him. The thing is that there are certain pre-requisites for Salath in Islam, facing toward he Holy Mosque (Kaba) is one of them. Having clean cloths on is as must as ones' clean body. In situtaion when you  don't have the means to  do things as priscribed for reasons beyond your control, there are concessions and God knows our intentions. Only willfull non-compliance is something God has said He does not like. If we are unable to figure out the direction, no harm. You must not delay your Salath becaue of that nor abondon it.
If you are unaware of direction, i.e. during a journey or at night, and cannot find the direction, you may pray in any direction. I would ask my learned brothers/sisters to quote anything that helps answer this question technically.
I have seen for example in a moving train Salath is offered while the facing direction changes continuously. Same when traveling here in the US, if for some reason I can't find the direction, a guess is as good because my intention is there. But remember, we are given excuse only where there is a genuine reason, no willfull disobedience or lazyness is intended, nor we are allowed to make changes to what Allah the All knowing and His messanger (pbuh) has taught us. 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 09 October 2008 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by believer

If you don't pray towards Mecca does the pray still reach Allah?



 "I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.  (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

 
Tell us believer, what is the temple made out of?  Wouldn't bowing down to it be an idol worship to you?


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 October 2008 at 3:05pm
Thanks honeto!
 
LOL!!  Mansoor Ali - The Temple in David's time had not been built.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 11 October 2008 at 9:33am
Originally posted by believer

Thanks honeto!
 
LOL!!  Mansoor Ali - The Temple in David's time had not been built.


Why bow down? Bowing is a symbol of reverence. Because God is God we honor Him and bow down.

But I, by your great mercy, will come into your house; in reverence will I bow down towards your holy temple.
Psalms 5:7 NIV

I will bow down
towards your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word.
Psalms 138:2 NIV       

The reference by David to God's "house" and "holy temple" in verse 7 is not anachronistic. Although Solomon's temple, of course, was not built when David was alive, the tabernacle of God was referred to as His "temple" before Solomon's time (see I Sam. 1:9 and I Sam. 3:3 for other examples of this).               



Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 12 October 2008 at 1:11am
Is there anything in Islam that suggests that the human being is the 'temple of the Holy Spirit' ?
 
I know Islam believes Jibril is the Holy Spirit ?
 
If human beings are temples of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps this is again part reason why the angels bow before man.
 
 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 October 2008 at 5:40pm
Originally posted by Gulliver

Is there anything in Islam that suggests that the human being is the 'temple of the Holy Spirit' ?
 
I know Islam believes Jibril is the Holy Spirit ?
 
If human beings are temples of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps this is again part reason why the angels bow before man.
 
 
 
Gulliver,
we must remember, that in Islam, angels are also God's creation.
Neither do we worship angels nor they worship man.
I am not aware of anything in Islam that suggests that "the human being is the temple of the Holy Spirit" as you suggested.
However, humans, as a creation is said to be above the rest of God's creation. Now, a Muslim is very careful not to play with words to derive different meanings out of it. We don't touch with what God revealed. It simply means what it says, humans above the rest of the creation.
 
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 October 2008 at 6:13pm
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60570&FID=7 - Mansoor_ali - It is not what the tabernacle of the Old Testament is made of, but by whom- men, consecrated by the blood of goats and bulls.  Also it is what was in the tabernacle- the Ark of the covenant.
 
The Ark held the Word of GOD.
 
Jesus is the new Ark of the Covenant- the Word of GOD made flesh.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 October 2008 at 6:37pm
"the Word of GOD made flesh."
I thought you wrote before that "Jesus was God"? Now you say "word of God made flesh". Constantly changing, change is good.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 2:29am

"Now, a Muslim is very careful not to play with words to derive different meanings out of it."

I noticed this with my Muslim friend. He got quite annoyed that I dared question why God might do this or that. Can't remember what we were discussing, but I was questionning, as I am wont to do ;-)  I said, "what about the angels who ask God about the creation of Adam." They didn't seem too sure it was a good idea - man being someone who would wreak havoc, murder and mayhem on the earth. 
 
 
"We don't touch with what God revealed. "
 
So in that case, who decides what anything in the Qu'ran actually means ? There is not agreement on certain matters, as has been made very clear to me on this forum.
 
The Qu'ran says that 'God's spirit' is breathed into us. Therefore we can be said to be, 'temples of the holy spirit.' God's spirit is holy is it not. I read on an Islamic site once that this was why the angels prostrated before Adam. Humanity has 'God's spirit' - and they, angels, do not. Jibril could not ascend as near to God as Muhammad, not having 'God's spirit' as part of his makeup.
 
I think we should look to what things may or may not mean H - as it showsin this case it might give a greater sense of awe at the dignity bestowed on humanity by God, and what we can aspire to becoming........ 
 
OTHER GODS !  ;-) lol  I am KIDDING !!   ( I know, I am going to burn in hell for all eternity.)
 
The implication is we have a very high destiny - 'humans above the rest of creation.'
 
Not sure why you're talking about humans worhsipping angels or angels humans. I have not suggested that. I just mention sometimes how the angels prostrate to Adam, and perhaps why.
 
_______________________________
 
Is the 'word of God', like 'God's spirit,' somehow completely separate from God - like a 'creation' ?
 
When we don't look at 'different' possible meanings - then religious fundamentalists often make the literal interpretations into 'sticks' with which to beat their fellow human beings, some times to death. Same in Christianity.
 
 
"Constantly changing, change is good."  Oh make your mind up Hasan, and stop playing with words ;-) lol


Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 21 October 2008 at 2:40am
It would seem too, perhaps, that this is why when I 'sin' - I hurt my self, my neighbour - and so God - as we have 'God's spirit' within us. God's spirit is what unites us to each other and to God, perhaps, and when we 'sin' - we 'hurt' God, self and neighbour. 


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 2:16am
Originally posted by believer

If you don't pray towards Mecca does the pray still reach Allah?



Probably the following revelation Allah must have planned and sent just for the people like you! He knew a so called believer would like to stump the faithfuls with a question!

2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or west; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfill the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.
26:89 "But only he (will prosper) that brings to Allah a sound heart;
It is of course the heart that has been mentioned by Allah in revelation about 12 dozen times, so it is still matter of what is in the worshippers' hearts!


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 2:55am
robin:
The basis of your thread is just too flimsy and laughable!
It is a case of the sour grapes !
You can reject some thing you have been offered or have the possession of it!
The reality is since the time of Prophet's birth the Xtians are jealous about its existence cuz they and the Jews (except a remnant of the Temple) don't have anything linking themselves with the Abrahamic traditions!! The Xtian King of Yemen Abraha attempted to destroy it by attacking Mecca with a large force and he and forces were destroyed by the birds making a rain of stones!

105:1 ART THOU NOT aware of how thy Sustainer dealt with the Army of the Elephant?


105:2 Did He not utterly confound their artful planning?


105:3 Thus, He let loose upon them great swarms of flying creatures


105:4 which smote them with stone-hard blows of chastisement pre-ordained,


105:5 and caused them to become like a field of grain that has been eaten down to stubble


 

 Xtians or any other disbelievers are prohibited from getting in the precinct of the Kaaba after Prophet took over and had it cleansed of the idolatry trash!
The Xtian forces tried to get close to it during the first Gulf invasion and which triggered a 911 big birds attack and Iraqi and Afghanistan bore the  brunt of it and the rest is history still in making!



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 3:02am
Why is 'believer' getting such a hard time on the 'Obsession' thread,  and this is being tolerated ?  Admin !! 
 
What are 'Xtians' ?
 
 "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Xtians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."
 
Seems like this is exactly what it does mean - literally, for all the waffling done by others.
 
Thanks for the wake up Sign.   
 
"The reality is since the time of prophet's birth the Xtians are jealous about its existence (the borg cube) cuz they and the Jews (except a remnant of the Temple) don't have anything linking themselves with the Abrahamic traditions!! The Xtian King of Yemen Abraha attempted to destroy it by attacking Mecca with a large force and he and forces were destroyed by the birds making a rain of stones!"
 
This sounds like a script for Babylon 5.   LOL 
 
Sorry Sign.  Oh dear God, we should all be sedated and put in strait jackets ;-) lol    I wonder if a real Xtian from planet Xtia came to earth what it'd make of all our 'religion's.

 
 


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 3:00pm
Ignorance may be bliss for robin and believer!
What blather robin started the thread with!
None of you have the experience about the place but just want to join the band wagon to spew ignorant nonsense!

Kaaba is our home anyone attacks it and not expect a response would need some  sedation one way or another enough of this drunken capitalist hubris!

Kevin you want to join them that is your decision!

I am glad you are finally awake!

Anyone who is here to learn Dr Ali Shariati has this classic essay that I can relate to after my participation!
The Ka'aba 

Made of dark rough stones laid in a very simple manner with white chalk filling the fissures, the Kaaba is an empty cube - nothing else. You cannot but shiver and wonder about what you see Here ... There is no one! There is nothing to view! An empty room (cube) is visible. Is that all?!! Is this the center of our faith, prayers, love, life and death? 

Questions and doubts arise in your mind. Where am I? What is here? What you see is the antithesis of your visual imaginations of the Kaaba. You might have perceived it as an architectural beauty (like a palace) whose ceilings covered a spiritual silence. Another possible portrayal was that of a high tomb housing the grave of an important human being - a hero, genius, imam or prophet! No - instead it is an open square, an empty room. It reflects no architectural skill, beauty, art, inscription, nor quality; and no graves are found there. There is nothing and nobody there to whom you can direct your attention, feelings and memories. 

You will realize that there is nothing and nobody there to disturb your thoughts and feelings about God. The Kaaba, which you want to fly over to come into contact with the "absolute" and "eternal", is the roof for your feelings. This is something you were unable to achieve in your world of fragmentation and relativity. You could only be philosophical, but now you can see the "absolute", the one who has no direction - Allah! He is every where. 

How good it is to see the Kaaba empty! It reminds you that your presence is for the sake of performing Hajj. It is not your destination. Moreover, it is a guide to show the direction. 

Kaaba is only a cornerstone, a sign to show the road. 

Having decided to move toward eternity, you begin the Hajj.

It is an eternal movement toward Allah not toward the Kaaba.

The Kaaba is the beginning and not the end - when no more can be done.

It is the place where Allah, Ibrahim, Mohammad and people will meet. You will be present there only if your mind is not preoccupied with self-centered thoughts. You must be one of the people! Everyone is dressed in special garments. Being Allah's chastity and family you are honored by him . He has more enthusiasm toward this family than any one else. However, the Kaaba, His property and His house is called the "house of people". 

Quran III:96 

Lo! The first sanctuary appointed for mankind was that at Bekka (Mecca), a blessed place, a guidance to the people. 

You are not allowed to enter this sacred house if you are still self attached, that is, thinking of yourself. 

Mecca is called "Baite-Atiq". Atiq represents being free! Mecca belongs to nobody. It is free from the reign of rulers and oppressors; therefore, no one controls it. Allah is the owner of Mecca while the people are its residents. 

Under the provisions of, the Muslim is allowed to shorten his prayers if traveling at least forty miles away from his home. But at Mecca, regardless of where you are from or how far you have traveled, your prayer is complete. It is your land, your community and you are safe. You are not a visitor, but you are at home. 

Before coming to Mecca, you were a stranger, exiled in your own land. But now, you are invited to join Allah's family. Mankind, the dearest family of the world, is invited to this house. If you as an individual are "self centered", you will feel like a homeless stranger lost with no shelter and no relatives. Therefore, shed the self distinctive tendencies. You are now prepared to enter the house and join this family. You will be welcomed as a friend and close relative of Allah's family. 

The Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) who was the oldest and most rebellious man of history, may be visualized. Denying all the idols on earth, he greatly loved and obeyed Allah alone. With his own hands, he built the Kaaba. This structure symbolizes Allah in the world. 

The building is very simple. Black rocks of "Ajoon" are laid on top of each other. There is no design or decoration involved. Its name, Kaabah, means a "cube" in terms of architectural design - but why a "cube"? 

Why is it so simple lacking color and ornamentation? It is because Almighty Allah has no "shape", no color and none is similar to Him. No pattern or visualization of Allah that man imagines can represent Him. Being omnipotent and omnipresent, Allah is "absolute". 

Although Kaaba has no direction (because of its cubic shape), by facing Kaaba when performing the prayers, you choose Allah's direction and face Him. Kaaba's absence of direction may seem difficult to comprehend. However, universality and absoluteness prevails. Having six sides, the appropriate structure is a cube! It encompasses all directions and simultaneously their sum symbolizes no direction! The original symbol of this is the Kaaba! 

Quran II:115 

Unto Allah belongs the east and west, and whitherso-ever you will be facing Allah.  

When praying outside of Kaaba you must face it. Any structure except Kaaba directs north, south, east, west, up or down. Kaaba, an exception, is facing all directions while it is facing none. Truly a symbol of Allah, it has many directions yet it has no particular direction. 

Toward the west of Kaaba there is a semi-circular short wall which faces Kaaba. It is called Ismail's Hajar. Hajar signifies lap or skirt. The semi lunar wall resembles a skirt. 

Sarah, the wife of Ibrahim had a black maid (Ethiopian) called Hajar. She was extremely poor and humbled to the degree that Sarah did not object to her becoming a bed-mate of her husband, Ibrahim, in order to bear him a child. Here was a woman who was not honored enough to become a second wife to Ibrahim yet Allah connected the symbol of Hajar's skirt to His symbol, Kaaba. And this tradition also became a part of the Israelites that four sons (Dan, Nephtali, Gad & Asher) of Jacob's were from the concobines/hand maids(Bilhah & Zilpah) of Jacob's wives (Leah & Rachel)*!

The skirt of Hajar was the area in which Ismail was raised. The house of Hajar is there. Her grave is near the third column of Kaaba. 

What a surprise since no one, not even prophets, is supposed to be buried in mosques but in this case, the house of a black maid is located next to Allah's house! Hajar, the mother of Ismail is buried there. Kaaba extends toward her grave. As a result, Allah's house is directed toward her skirt! 

There is a narrow passage between the wall (Hajar's skirt) and Kaaba. When circumambulating around Kaaba, Allah commanded that you must go around the wall (not through the passage) otherwise your Hajj will not be accepted. 

Those who believe in monotheism and those who have accepted Allah's invitation to go to Hajj must touch this skirt when circumambulating the Kaaba. The grave of a black African maid and a good mother is now a part of Kaaba; it will be circumambulated by man forever! 

Allah, the Almighty, in His great and glorious Divinity is all alone by Himself. He needs nobody and nothing. Nevertheless, among all His countless and eternal creatures, He has chosen one, mankind, the noblest of them. 

From among all humanity: a woman, From among all women: a slave, And from among all slaves: a black maid! 

The weakest and most humiliated one of His creatures was given a place at His side and a room in His house. He has come to her house and become her neighbor and roommate. So now, there are two, Allah and Hajar, under the ceiling of this "house"! 

IN THE ISLAMIC COMMUNITY, THE "UNKNOWN SOLDIER" IS SO ELECTED! 

The rituals of Hajj are a memory of Hajar. The word Higrah(migration) has its root in her name as does the word Mahajir (immigrant). "The ideal immigrant is the one who behaved like Hajar." Mohammad (PBUH) 

Higrah is what Hajar did. It is also a transition from savagery to becoming civilized and from Kofr to Islam. 

In Hajars mother language her name means "the city". Even the name of this black Ethiopian slave is symbolic of civilization. Furthermore, any migration like hers is a move toward civilization! 

Hajar's grave is in the midst of man's circumambulation of Kaaba. You, the mohajir (immigrant), who has divorced himself from everything and accepted Allah's invitation to go to Hajj, you will circumambulate Hajar's grave and the Kaaba of Allah simultaneously. 

What is being said in these paragraphs? It is difficult to realize. But for those who think they live in freedom and defend humanism, the significance of these incidents transgresses the scope of their understanding!
*Underlined mine
 
 




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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 October 2008 at 5:56pm
 
 
Gulliver,
if you can give refrances to what parts you are talking about about what matter, we can talk about it, one by one.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 23 October 2008 at 3:39am
Sign. I am not looking to attack the Kabaa or disrespect it. I know I talk a load of tripe here most of the time, and carry on some times. I only started to seriously look at 'religion' again a year ago. I am very mistrustful of all of it. But that's another story. I know God is not religion - but can be known and experienced through certain religious 'practices' -  prayer not the least.  I have complete and utter respect for the way Muslims pray.  Joined them as you know and wish there were a mosque in this town so I could do it more often. I do believe there is a LOT to be learned in that disciplined prayer life by others, myself included. It was the reference to 'Xtian'. Like taking the 'Christ' out of Christmas. Whatever I believe about Christ or not. When they stuck an X in there - it made what should be a time for family and charity etc - about the 'money changers' - big corporate businesses making mega bucks. Don't even get me started on that one ;-) I have a feeling you'd be in total agreement with me. It's not helpful calling them Xtians or 'unbelievers'.  The Qu'ran does not refer to 'the people of the book' that way :-) We all have to think a little bit fore we open our traps. And me more than most, believe me. lol ;-)
 
I am not joining anyone. There is a LOT to read and to learn and it's gonna take time.
 
God bless
 
Oh - and thanks Sign for giving me my proper name ;-) I thought no one noticed it. Please take all I say with a good pinch of salt. I would never deliberately offend anyone. This thing can give a false impression of who we truly are very often as I am sure you know.
 
The worst about the internet. There are so many people you would love to get to meet for real - but they are on other side of the world. Take care.
 


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 25 October 2008 at 3:41pm
[QUOTE=Gulliver]

Me In blue--

I know God is not religion - but can be known and experienced through certain religious 'practices' -  prayer not the least.  I have complete and utter respect for the way Muslims pray.  Joined them as you know and wish there were a mosque in this town so I could do it more often. I do believe there is a LOT to be learned in that disciplined prayer life by others, myself included.
I whole heartedly agree!

 It was the reference to 'Xtian'. Like taking the 'Christ' out of Christmas. Whatever I believe about Christ or not. When they stuck an X in there - it made what should be a time for family and charity etc - about the 'money changers' - big corporate businesses making mega bucks. Don't even get me started on that one ;-) I have a feeling you'd be in total agreement with me. It's not helpful calling them Xtians or 'unbelievers'.  The Qu'ran does not refer to 'the people of the book' that way :-) We all have to think a little bit fore we open our traps. And me more than most, believe me. lol ;-)
Kevin: I am sorry that you didn't approve of me using X .  Do you think it is my fault really when I see lots of people who like to tell others what their religion is all about by wearing this X around their necks! For them X is interchangeable with Jesus and that is a bit simplistic religion!

The money changers of Wall Street with blessings of White house and White Hall have destroyed lots of families of their own kinds by proving what Allah had been telling since the time immemorial but people won't listen to the truth! This Christmas would be a shock for the corporations alike as the unrepentant gluttonous debt ridden consumers!

There will be time to contemplate for some to get serious about the true message of any Allah sent Prophets!

Kevin: General rule of thumb in quality assurance sciences is always check the product by the latest approved version of the standards, drawings & specifications! 

I was expecting robin
to respond being the one lectur'g us on what Kaaba is supposed to be according to her scripture!

Wherever the Quraan mentions them they are listed as Nazerens those believed about the creed that came from the men of Nazareth, and translators make it Christians!

Then your quoting "believer" !

AS humans we are supposed to have differences even as siblings I don't have the same POV as my own brother and sister would! That doesn't mean I would go along with my brother who leaves for unbelief or some thing against the deen of Allah while in the company of non believers of any kind in his case him marrying a non practicing shiit!
Kaaba is that touchstone or direction that separates the Truth from the falsehood ultimately!
He (believer)  and his ilk have an agenda and they gonna get the pay back  from God from a different directionand you see it happening. Getting the Democratic a Kenyan American beating a right wing Islamophobes candidate  no matter how much propaganda against Islam and Muslims they spread in the US! This is truly a sign of the time! 
They and their Jewish buddies have bankrupted the American society and still they are not seeing the truth!
5:82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
 
God bless
Peace be to you
 
Oh - and thanks Sign for giving me my proper name ;-) I thought no one noticed it. Please take all I say with a good pinch of salt. I would never deliberately offend anyone. This thing can give a false impression of who we truly are very often as I am sure you know.
 
The worst about the internet. There are so many people you would love to get to meet for real - but they are on other side of the world. Take care.

I hear you;
Love you too!
I think if you happen to be in SoCal we can go out and break bread !

 



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 26 October 2008 at 1:39am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader



I was expecting robin to respond being the one lectur'g us on what Kaaba is supposed to be according to her scripture!

 
I do not have to because the Bible just says:-
 
1 John 5:21
Little children, guard yourselves from idols.
 
1 Corinthians 10:14
Therefore, my beloved ones, flee from idolatry.
 
 
Additionally, false worshipers would often kiss their idols as at 1 Kings 19:18:-
 
() added
And I have let seven thousand remain in Israel (faithfull ones who did not worship Baal), all the knees that have not bent down to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 26 October 2008 at 1:40am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

robin:
The basis of your thread is just too flimsy and laughable!
It is a case of the sour grapes !
You can reject some thing you have been offered or have the possession of it!
The reality is since the time of Prophet's birth the Xtians are jealous about its existence cuz they and the Jews (except a remnant of the Temple) don't have anything linking themselves with the Abrahamic traditions!! The Xtian King of Yemen Abraha attempted to destroy it by attacking Mecca with a large force and he and forces were destroyed by the birds making a rain of stones!

105:1 ART THOU NOT aware of how thy Sustainer dealt with the Army of the Elephant?


 
It is to unbelivers

105:2 Did He not utterly confound their artful planning?


105:3 Thus, He let loose upon them great swarms of flying creatures


105:4 which smote them with stone-hard blows of chastisement pre-ordained,


105:5 and caused them to become like a field of grain that has been eaten down to stubble


 

 Xtians or any other disbelievers are prohibited from getting in the precinct of the Kaaba after Prophet took over and had it cleansed of the idolatry trash!
The Xtian forces tried to get close to it during the first Gulf invasion and which triggered a 911 big birds attack and Iraqi and Afghanistan bore the  brunt of it and the rest is history still in making!



Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 27 October 2008 at 8:31am
Originally posted by Gulliver

 
 
Oh - and thanks Sign for giving me my proper name ;-) I thought no one noticed it. .
 
 
Smile I know/noticed ur name too - didnt use it publicy on the forum, cz some ppl like to keep thier identity off the forums. . .
 
lol. sorry for the sidetracking . . .


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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."


Posted By: Gulliver
Date Posted: 27 October 2008 at 12:22pm
Oh trust you to get your oar in Chrys ;-) lol  As the Bard once said, "What's in a name......  that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." And do I smell.  ;-) LOL 
 
Kidding. Now, back to business.
 
 



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