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THE BIBLE SAYS TO WORSHIP JESUS IS IDOLAT

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12616
Printed Date: 30 September 2014 at 5:18am


Topic: THE BIBLE SAYS TO WORSHIP JESUS IS IDOLAT
Posted By: robin
Subject: THE BIBLE SAYS TO WORSHIP JESUS IS IDOLAT
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 8:18pm

ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE THE WORSHIP OF JESUS CHRIST IS IDOLATRY!

 

TO WORSHIP JESUS AS GOD IS TO WORSHIP AN “ICON”!

 
A visit to almost any place of worship will reveal how many religious people have elevated creatures (humans or otherwise)  above the Creator.  How so?  By their image and icon veneration and their worship rendered to Saints, Madonnas, Crosses, some with and images of Jesus.  (See Psalm 115:2-8; 2 Corinthians 5:7; 1 John 5:21).

 

Can God, who “is spirit,” (John 4:24) and “invisible” (Colossians 1:15) be represented by a man made material image (or anything)? No.   Regardless of how imposing an icon may be, it can never match the glory of God.  So an manmade etc. image of God could never be a representation of him. (Romans 1:22, 23)  Would a person be ‘worshiping in truth’ if he approached God through some man-made icon?

 

The Bible states of Jesus Christ at 2 Cor. 4:4:

 

“… that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image (Gk.“eikon”) of God, might not shine through.”

 

Colossians 1:15

He is the image (Gk.“eikon”) of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

 

Icon  n. (also ikon) 1 painting of Christ etc., esp. in the Eastern Church. 2 image or statue. 3 symbol on a VDU screen of a program, option, or window, esp. for selection.  iconic adj. [Greek eikon image].”-Oxford Dictionary

 

image  —n. 1 representation of an object, e.g. a statue. 2 reputation or persona of a person, company, etc. 3 appearance as seen in a mirror or through a lens. 4 mental picture or idea. 5 simile or metaphor. —v. (-ging) 1 make an image of; portray. 2 reflect, mirror. 3 describe or imagine vividly.  be the image of be or look exactly like. [Latin imago imagin-].”-Oxford Dictionary

 

 

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT IMAGE OR ICON WORSHIP!

 

Exodus 20:4

“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth.

 

Deut 27:15

“‘Cursed is the man who makes a carved image or a molten statue, a thing detestable to Jehovah, the manufacture of the hands of a wood-and-metal worker, and who has put it in a hiding place.’

 

Isa. 42:8

“I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.

 

Image  - God’s firstborn Son, who later became the man Jesus, is in his Father’s image. (2 Cor 4:4) Inasmuch as that Son was obviously the one to whom God spoke in saying, “Let us make man in our image,” this likeness of the Son to his Father, the Creator, existed from when the Son was created. (Gen 1:26; John 1:1-3; Col 1:15, 16) When on earth as a perfect man, he reflected his Father’s qualities and personality to the fullest extent possible within human limitations, so he could say that “he that has seen me has seen the Father also.” (John 14:9; 5:17, 19, 30, 36; 8:28, 38, 42) This likeness, however, was certainly heightened at the time of Jesus’ resurrection to spirit life and his being granted “all authority . . . in heaven and on the earth” by his Father, Jehovah God. (1 Pet 3:18; Mtt 28:18) Since God then exalted Jesus to “a superior position,” God’s Son now reflected his Father’s glory to an even greater degree than he had before leaving the heavens to come to earth. (Php 2:9; Heb 2:9) He is now “the exact representation of [God’s] very being.”—Heb 1:2-4.

 

 
The Point!   If humans worship Jesus Christ then they worship an “image” (Gk. eikon) a “representation” a “copy” etc. which is idolatry:-

 

1 John 5:21

 “Little children, guard yourselves from idols.”




Replies:
Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 5:57am
Christians do not worship icons or other man-made portrayals of God, saints, etc. Rather they are meant as a visual reminder of God's glory to focus our attention on him, in much the same way the Psalms or Proverbs do so through written word. Your connection between Jesus and icons is an interesting one, but one I believe to be mistaken. While stained glass, sculptures and paintings were created by human hands, and therefore imperfect, Jesus was created by God and thus the only perfect human being to ever have existed. We believe quite literally the Jesus is God incarnate--in a human body, and that he became so in order to form a bridge between Himself and imperfect humanity....a covenant between Himself and a broken world, so that our brokenness can be forgiven and we can spend an eternity in his presence rather than be condemned to an eternity apart from him.

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Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 1:31pm
Originally posted by thomasd

Christians do not worship icons or other man-made portrayals of God, saints, etc. Rather they are meant as a visual reminder of God's glory to focus our attention on him, in much the same way the Psalms or Proverbs do so through written word. Your connection between Jesus and icons is an interesting one, but one I believe to be mistaken. While stained glass, sculptures and paintings were created by human hands, and therefore imperfect, Jesus was created by God and thus the only perfect human being to ever have existed. We believe quite literally the Jesus is God incarnate--in a human body, and that he became so in order to form a bridge between Himself and imperfect humanity....a covenant between Himself and a broken world, so that our brokenness can be forgiven and we can spend an eternity in his presence rather than be condemned to an eternity apart from him.
 
That is not quite right as Cahtloics pray to mary and the saints, that is an act of worship!


Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 3:07pm
Originally posted by robin

That is not quite right as Cahtloics pray to mary and the saints, that is an act of worship!

any conversation with God (or other spiritual beings) is prayer, regardless of whether or not it is intended as worship, to express thanks, or to ask for something.

Catholics (if there are any of you out there and I'm slightly wrong in my explanation of this, correct me), believe that the saints have a sort of direct line to God (which we all do really...), and that they have been given power by God to do miracles, and so when they pray to saints they are asking them to relay a request to God, or to perform small miracles.

I personally don't hold that belief...God cares about all of us and is always listening to our requests, but I don't see anything idolatrous about it.

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Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 7:29pm
Thomasd, my question to you differs the topic. You said that you believe 
 
"Jesus was created by God and thus the only perfect human being to ever have existed"
 
What do you say about Adam AS. He was also created by God. Likewise who is the creature of all the creations around us. These mountains, and rivers , birds and animals --- Allah swt is the only creator.Don't you agree to it ?
 
What do you say ? 
 


Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath

<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>Thomasd, my question to you differs the topic. You said that you believe 
<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1> 

<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>"Jesus was created by God and thus the only perfect human being to ever have existed"

<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1> 

<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>What do you say about Adam AS. He was also created by God. Likewise who is the creature of all the creations around us. These mountains, and rivers , birds and animals --- Allah swt is the only creator.Don't you agree to it ?

<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1> 

<FONT face="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif" size=1>What do you say ? 

 


excellent question. Adam is actually an interesting parallel to Jesus. both were created to be perfect and yet have free will. Both were tempted (the tree, and Jesus's 40 days in the desert). The difference being that Adam gave in to temptation.

w.r.t. you question about creation. Allah is the original creator, yet the Bible says He crafted us in His own image. Obviously this doesn't mean physically, it means spiritually. And so Christians believe that part of that is that He gifted us with creativity...the ability to create new things. We don't always use that ability to His glory as was intended for us, but thats where free will and our fallen nature come out.

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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 10:37am
 
 Catholics (if there are any of you out there and I'm slightly wrong in my explanation of this, correct me), believe that the saints have a sort of direct line to God (which we all do really...), and that they have been given power by God to do miracles, and so when they pray to saints they are asking them to relay a request to God, or to perform small miracles.
 
Your post shown above ( and other points mentioned elsewhere) are very good and to the point except the one I mention below. Mind you it is not to downplay you but it is rather to confirm most of your good words that I have noted. I do not want to be a judge but i can give my opinion only.
 
 Please note where I disagree with you. I have colored it black above in your post. Thanks.
 
 Nobody can pray to any one but God. By the word pray, perhaps you mean calling them only in prayers. Even that is wrong if they are no more alive. We cannot call them and reqest them for anything at all if they are not alive.
 
 If any such person is living then it is alright to approach him for prayers so that he will pray to God for our purpose (our need to be granted).  I do not know if I have explained it well or not.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by minuteman

   Nobody can pray to any one but God. By the word pray, perhaps you mean calling them only in prayers. Even that is wrong if they are no more alive. We cannot call them and reqest them for anything at all if they are not alive. If any such person is living then it is alright to approach him for prayers so that he will pray to God for our purpose (our need to be granted).  I do not know if I have explained it well or not.

yes, your meaning is clear, and I agree with you, that we should not call on the dead to intercede with God on our behalf. yet prayer is not limited to being an act of worship, and so I also do not believe that asking a request of a dead saint is idolatrous or blasphemous.

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Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 2:55am
Originally posted by thomasd

Originally posted by minuteman

   Nobody can pray to any one but God. By the word pray, perhaps you mean calling them only in prayers. Even that is wrong if they are no more alive. We cannot call them and reqest them for anything at all if they are not alive. If any such person is living then it is alright to approach him for prayers so that he will pray to God for our purpose (our need to be granted).  I do not know if I have explained it well or not.

yes, your meaning is clear, and I agree with you, that we should not call on the dead to intercede with God on our behalf. yet prayer is not limited to being an act of worship, and so I also do not believe that asking a request of a dead saint is idolatrous or blasphemous.
 
 You have agreed and then disagreed. I stress the point again for your understanding that we Muslims do not call any dead man to intercede on our behalf. We always pray to God only and ask everything from HIm. Otherwise, if we have a living leader, we may speak to him or write to him requesting him to pray to The God for our such and such need.
 
 But your last sentence means much different. You still suggest that it is alright to call any one who has passed away to intercede with God on our behalf. That is not possible. Even some Muslims may also be believeing the same thing as you do. But I do not do that. Intercession is another matter. It is only to be done when God permits any one. Not before that. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 5:43am
Originally posted by minuteman

You have agreed and then disagreed.

I agreed that praying to saints isn't a spiritually healthy practice. I disagreed with your actual definition of prayer.

Originally posted by minuteman

I stress the point again for your understanding that we Muslims do not call any dead man to intercede on our behalf. We always pray to God only and ask everything from HIm. Otherwise, if we have a living leader, we may speak to him or write to him requesting him to pray to The God for our such and such need.

yes, me too.

Originally posted by minuteman

But your last sentence means much different. You still suggest that it is alright to call any one who has passed away to intercede with God on our behalf.

I suggest that it is neither idolatrous nor blasphemous (which is what the original topic was about).

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Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 4:50am
Originally posted by thomasd

Originally posted by robin

That is not quite right as Cahtloics pray to mary and the saints, that is an act of worship!

any conversation with God (or other spiritual beings) is prayer, regardless of whether or not it is intended as worship, to express thanks, or to ask for something.

Catholics (if there are any of you out there and I'm slightly wrong in my explanation of this, correct me), believe that the saints have a sort of direct line to God (which we all do really...), and that they have been given power by God to do miracles, and so when they pray to saints they are asking them to relay a request to God, or to perform small miracles.

I personally don't hold that belief...God cares about all of us and is always listening to our requests, but I don't see anything idolatrous about it.
 
The Bible says:-
 
Colossians 1:3
We thank God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ always when we pray for YOU,
 
1 Thessalonians 1:2
We always thank God when we make mention concerning all of YOU in our prayers,
 
2 Corinthians 13:7
Now we pray to God . . .
 
Prayers to anyone else other than Almighty God are of no use as the Bible sets the pattern for all Christians; even Jesus prayed to Almighty God and he is:-
 
1 Peter 2:21
In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely.


Posted By: thomasd
Date Posted: 23 July 2008 at 8:21am
Originally posted by robin

Prayers to anyone else other than Almighty God are of no use as the Bible sets the pattern for all Christians; even Jesus prayed to Almighty God and he is:-

Christian's firmly believe that Jesus and the Almighty God are the same, thus by our beliefs praying to Jesus is equivalent to praying to the Almighty God.


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Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 26 July 2008 at 7:53am

Originally posted by thomasd

Originally posted by robin

Prayers to anyone else other than Almighty God are of no use as the Bible sets the pattern for all Christians; even Jesus prayed to Almighty God and he is:-

Christian's firmly believe that Jesus and the Almighty God are the same, thus by our beliefs praying to Jesus is equivalent to praying to the Almighty God.

 

The followers of Jesus do not agree with you, nor Jesus himself:-

John 4:23-24
Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."
 
 
True christians only worship the Father as Jesus said!


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 03 August 2008 at 6:55pm

No, you are wrong, Robin.  With all due respect, you, like many other non-Catholics incorrectly believe we pray to saints and the Holy Mother of God.  That is NOT SO.  We ask their help for many problems/situations in life.  It is the same as asking a dear friend or relative to "please pray for me."  Nothing more, nothing less.  Mary is in Heaven, very close to our Lord, as are the saints.  We believe they are so close to God, and if we ask them to pray for us too, we are greatly increasing our hope of having our problems, whatever they may be, solved.  You should read a good Catechism because you are woefully lacking in your knowledge of what true, devoted Catholics really believe.  This is not uncommon, but it is very sad!  I mean no disrespect or harshness toward you....but I must speak up when I see my religion being misrepresented.  I trust you understand.

God's Peace,

Patty



Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 03 August 2008 at 7:09pm
I would humbly add this Scripture from Phillipians regarding our Lord, Jesus Christ:
 
Philippians 2 http://kingjbible.com/philippians/3.htm - >>
King James Bible
 

http://bible.cc/philippians/2-1.htm - 1  If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, http://bible.cc/philippians/2-2.htm - 2  Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. http://bible.cc/philippians/2-3.htm - 3  Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. http://bible.cc/philippians/2-4.htm - 4  Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. http://bible.cc/philippians/2-5.htm - 5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: http://bible.cc/philippians/2-6.htm - 6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: http://bible.cc/philippians/2-7.htm - 7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: http://bible.cc/philippians/2-8.htm - 8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. http://bible.cc/philippians/2-9.htm - 9  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: http://bible.cc/philippians/2-10.htm - 10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 04 August 2008 at 5:53am
Patty it is interesting what you wrote..
 
Is it not St. Anthony the patron saint of lost things? There is a Saint known for this.
 
Still why pray to a person to help you when you can pray to God?


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by Hayfa

Patty it is interesting what you wrote..
 
Is it not St. Anthony the patron saint of lost things? There is a Saint known for this.
 
Still why pray to a person to help you when you can pray to God?
 
Hello Hayfa,
 
I guess I could ask why ask others we know to be devout Muslims, Jews, or Christians to pray for us when we need help.  We are not praying to the person, i.e., St. Anthony, we are ASKING him to help us.....or in other words to "intercede" for us to our Lord.  We also of course pray most earnestly to God to help us, but asking our friends, relatives, saints, and the Blessed Mother to pray for us too certainly is not a wrong or bad thing to do, imo.  I know I need all the help I can get!!LOL  And when anyone asks me to pray for them, I am more than happy to do so.  This is the same thing.  I hope you understand what I am saying....I am not always good or clear at explaining what I mean.
 
Peace,
Patty


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 04 August 2008 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

No, you are wrong, Robin.  With all due respect, you, like many other non-Catholics incorrectly believe we pray to saints and the Holy Mother of God.  That is NOT SO.  We ask their help for many problems/situations in life.  It is the same as asking a dear friend or relative to "please pray for me."  Nothing more, nothing less.  Mary is in Heaven, very close to our Lord, as are the saints.  We believe they are so close to God, and if we ask them to pray for us too, we are greatly increasing our hope of having our problems, whatever they may be, solved.  You should read a good Catechism because you are woefully lacking in your knowledge of what true, devoted Catholics really believe.  This is not uncommon, but it is very sad!  I mean no disrespect or harshness toward you....but I must speak up when I see my religion being misrepresented.  I trust you understand.

God's Peace,

Patty

 
As she is not the Mother of God, as Jesus is Not God!
 
Jesus also said:-
 
John 14:6
Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
 
Any other approch to God does not work, as Jesus himself said!


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 04 August 2008 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

I would humbly add this Scripture from Phillipians regarding our Lord, Jesus Christ:
 
Philippians 2 http://kingjbible.com/philippians/3.htm - >>
King James Bible
 

http://bible.cc/philippians/2-1.htm - 1  If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, http://bible.cc/philippians/2-2.htm - 2  Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. http://bible.cc/philippians/2-3.htm - 3  Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. http://bible.cc/philippians/2-4.htm - 4  Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. http://bible.cc/philippians/2-5.htm - 5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: http://bible.cc/philippians/2-6.htm - 6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: http://bible.cc/philippians/2-7.htm - 7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: http://bible.cc/philippians/2-8.htm - 8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. http://bible.cc/philippians/2-9.htm - 9  Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: http://bible.cc/philippians/2-10.htm - 10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.
 
It does not say any other "name" that "EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW" so to go through a saint or Mary (the name of) etc. is of no use, as the text you quoted says!
 
The Bible aslo says that ONLY God Himself hears prayers:-
 
Psalm 65:1-2
For you there is praise—silence—, O God, in Zion; And to you the vow will be paid.  2 O Hearer of prayer, even to you people of all flesh will come.


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 04 August 2008 at 6:08pm
Robin,
This topic is a mute point unless you are a Jehovah's Witness.  I just realized that is your religion.  I would like to say that God does hear prayers, as you just said yourself.....and that would include prayers from saints and the Holy Mother, and all human beings as well.
 
I wish you well.  I have invited many Jehovah Witnesses into my home for discussions....but there is no way to communicate because your beliefs are so totally different from all Christian faiths and denominations.
 
I wish you well, my friend.
 
God's Peace Always,
Patty


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 05 August 2008 at 9:43am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by Hayfa

Patty it is interesting what you wrote..
 
Is it not St. Anthony the patron saint of lost things? There is a Saint known for this.
 
Still why pray to a person to help you when you can pray to God?
 
Hello Hayfa,
 
I guess I could ask why ask others we know to be devout Muslims, Jews, or Christians to pray for us when we need help.  We are not praying to the person, i.e., St. Anthony, we are ASKING him to help us.....or in other words to "intercede" for us to our Lord.  We also of course pray most earnestly to God to help us, but asking our friends, relatives, saints, and the Blessed Mother to pray for us too certainly is not a wrong or bad thing to do, imo.  I know I need all the help I can get!!LOL  And when anyone asks me to pray for them, I am more than happy to do so.  This is the same thing.  I hope you understand what I am saying....I am not always good or clear at explaining what I mean.
 
Peace,
Patty
 
 In Islam, it is alright to ask some living person by phone or letter or message to pray to Allah for us. But it is never done for any man who has passed away because he is not living. His activity (account) is closed. We can pray for him. But he that has passed away cannot do anything.
 
 About intersession also, it will be in the next life and will be with the permission of Allah. No one will incede on behalf of any one without the permission first being granted to him.
 
 Conclusion: We can pray for the prophets and saints. We cannot ask them to help us or to do anything (pray) for us. Those who have passed away cannot pray and do not pray.


-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 05 August 2008 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by minuteman

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by Hayfa

Patty it is interesting what you wrote..
 
Is it not St. Anthony the patron saint of lost things? There is a Saint known for this.
 
Still why pray to a person to help you when you can pray to God?
 
Hello Hayfa,
 
I guess I could ask why ask others we know to be devout Muslims, Jews, or Christians to pray for us when we need help.  We are not praying to the person, i.e., St. Anthony, we are ASKING him to help us.....or in other words to "intercede" for us to our Lord.  We also of course pray most earnestly to God to help us, but asking our friends, relatives, saints, and the Blessed Mother to pray for us too certainly is not a wrong or bad thing to do, imo.  I know I need all the help I can get!!LOL  And when anyone asks me to pray for them, I am more than happy to do so.  This is the same thing.  I hope you understand what I am saying....I am not always good or clear at explaining what I mean.
 
Peace,
Patty
 
 In Islam, it is alright to ask some living person by phone or letter or message to pray to Allah for us. But it is never done for any man who has passed away because he is not living. His activity (account) is closed. We can pray for him. But he that has passed away cannot do anything.
 
 About intersession also, it will be in the next life and will be with the permission of Allah. No one will incede on behalf of any one without the permission first being granted to him.
 
 Conclusion: We can pray for the prophets and saints. We cannot ask them to help us or to do anything (pray) for us. Those who have passed away cannot pray and do not pray.
 
 
Hello Minuteman,
 
This is where religious tolerance comes in, I suppose.  This is why you are a good Muslim, and I am a good (I hope) Catholic.  We disagree here, and that's okay.  Catholics believe that those who are in Heaven can pray for us, just as those who are still here on earth may do so.  This is a basic difference in beliefs.  I am only stating what I believe, and why I believe it.  But I certainly do not expect you to believe as I believe.  I am not so naive'.  It is good to explain what we believe and why we believe it. There are many references in the Holy Bible to enforce my beliefs....just as there are many in the Qur'an to enforce your comments and beliefs. 
 
As adults I feel we know inside we are not going to change anyone's basic religious beliefs.  It is useful and interesting to discuss and explain why we believe what we do.  That is all I am trying to do here.
 
God's Blessings to you.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 06 August 2008 at 1:13am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Robin,
but there is no way to communicate because your beliefs are so totally different from all Christian faiths and denominations.
 
But according to The Bible they should not be so:-
 
1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.
 
1 Corinthians 12:25
so that there should be no division in the body, . . .
 
Therefore now divinsions should exist, true. this makes tow or more faith, and the Bible says there is only "one" faith:-
 
Ephesians 4:4-6
One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father. . .
 
Thus only "one" truth!
 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 November 2008 at 6:56pm
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=16&version=31&context=verse -
 
Deuteronomy 32:16
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 29 November 2008 at 7:14pm
Originally posted by honeto

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=16&version=31&context=verse -
 
Deuteronomy 32:16
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.
Hasan
 
 
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.
 
 
 


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 30 November 2008 at 11:29am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
"That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.


Here is the link which brushes argument about Jesus being worshiped: http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun25.htm - http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun25.htm


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 01 December 2008 at 4:51pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=16&version=31&context=verse -
 
Deuteronomy 32:16
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.
Hasan
 
 
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.
 
 
 
 
Dear Patty,
I note that in your quote above its someone other than Jesus that is saying what it is saying: i.e. "Jesus Christ be worshipped."
 
Here is a quote from the same Bible, and these words suppose to be coming out of the mouth of Jesus, and here it is as if he is speaking, delivering a command, let's read it:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Hasan


 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 01 December 2008 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=16&version=31&context=verse -
 
Deuteronomy 32:16
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.
Hasan
 
 
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.
 
 
 
 
Dear Patty,
I note that in your quote above its someone other than Jesus that is saying what it is saying: i.e. "Jesus Christ be worshipped."
 
Here is a quote from the same Bible, and these words suppose to be coming out of the mouth of Jesus, and here it is as if he is speaking, delivering a command, let's read it:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Hasan


 
 
Yes, Hasan, it is God who is speaking in the verse above from Deuteronomy.  Hasan, I thought Muslims did not believe in the NT, yet you are quoting a verse from St. John, one of the four Gospels in the NT.  Why would you believe this verse?  But since you did post this one verse from the Gospel of St. John, I'll add a couple more verses so that you can see what Jesus was really stating:
 

John 4:20-26 (New International Version)

20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 

26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
 
God's Peace,
Patty



-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 December 2008 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=16&version=31&context=verse -
 
Deuteronomy 32:16
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.
Hasan
 
 
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.
 
 
 
 
Dear Patty,
I note that in your quote above its someone other than Jesus that is saying what it is saying: i.e. "Jesus Christ be worshipped."
 
Here is a quote from the same Bible, and these words suppose to be coming out of the mouth of Jesus, and here it is as if he is speaking, delivering a command, let's read it:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Hasan


 
 
Yes, Hasan, it is God who is speaking in the verse above from Deuteronomy.  Hasan, I thought Muslims did not believe in the NT, yet you are quoting a verse from St. John, one of the four Gospels in the NT.  Why would you believe this verse?  But since you did post this one verse from the Gospel of St. John, I'll add a couple more verses so that you can see what Jesus was really stating:
 

John 4:20-26 (New International Version)

20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 

26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
 
God's Peace,
Patty

 
Dear Patty,
let me clear out your confusion, I do not believe the present form of what we now know as the Bible to be God's pure word sent down to prophets before the last prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The reason I quote from it is to show those who believe in it when engaged in a conversation like this to prove or disprove a claim.
Deuteronomy 32:16 was to show you that God does not like the worship of other than God, also it shows that God does not like idols be worshipped. That and many other verses in the Bible, including that of the ten commandments clearly state not erecting idols of God or any living thing for the purpose of worship. I mention that to show Catholics that by making representations of any living thing, praying and bowing down to them is against the teachings of not just the Quran, but the very book they claim to be guiding them!
 
In response you wrote the folowing:
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity."
 
Now to show you that your quote of worshipping Jesus cannot be true since in the same Bible Jesus is quoted to have said that actually its God (the Father) that to be worshipped. Here is that quote again:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
 
So my use of these quotes from the Bible is to show you, who believe in it to be true word of God, that it also negate almost every claim you make and prove through it.
Hasan
 
 
T


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 03 December 2008 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=16&version=31&context=verse -
 
Deuteronomy 32:16
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.
Hasan
 
 
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.
 
 
 
 
Dear Patty,
I note that in your quote above its someone other than Jesus that is saying what it is saying: i.e. "Jesus Christ be worshipped."
 
Here is a quote from the same Bible, and these words suppose to be coming out of the mouth of Jesus, and here it is as if he is speaking, delivering a command, let's read it:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Hasan


 
 
Yes, Hasan, it is God who is speaking in the verse above from Deuteronomy.  Hasan, I thought Muslims did not believe in the NT, yet you are quoting a verse from St. John, one of the four Gospels in the NT.  Why would you believe this verse?  But since you did post this one verse from the Gospel of St. John, I'll add a couple more verses so that you can see what Jesus was really stating:
 

John 4:20-26 (New International Version)

20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 

26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
 
God's Peace,
Patty

 
Dear Patty,
let me clear out your confusion, I do not believe the present form of what we now know as the Bible to be God's pure word sent down to prophets before the last prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The reason I quote from it is to show those who believe in it when engaged in a conversation like this to prove or disprove a claim.
Deuteronomy 32:16 was to show you that God does not like the worship of other than God, also it shows that God does not like idols be worshipped. That and many other verses in the Bible, including that of the ten commandments clearly state not erecting idols of God or any living thing for the purpose of worship. I mention that to show Catholics that by making representations of any living thing, praying and bowing down to them is against the teachings of not just the Quran, but the very book they claim to be guiding them!
 
In response you wrote the folowing:
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity."
 
Now to show you that your quote of worshipping Jesus cannot be true since in the same Bible Jesus is quoted to have said that actually its God (the Father) that to be worshipped. Here is that quote again:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
 
So my use of these quotes from the Bible is to show you, who believe in it to be true word of God, that it also negate almost every claim you make and prove through it.
Hasan
 
 
T
 
I maintain the accuracy and truthfulness of the Holy Bible which was sent to the apostles and disciples from God.  You do not believe it, and that is your right.  Jesus warned of false prophets who would follow him, and warned us to beware of them. 
 
Hasan, we will just have to agree to disagree.  This dialogue is a stalemate.  You are devoted to your faith, and I am just as devoted to mine.
 
I wish you peace.
 
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 04 December 2008 at 4:30pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

  
Yes, Hasan, it is God who is speaking in the verse above from Deuteronomy.  Hasan, I thought Muslims did not believe in the NT, yet you are quoting a verse from St. John, one of the four Gospels in the NT.  Why would you believe this verse?
 
 We believe only in those parts of Bible which are closest to Quran.We donot reject a Bible as a whole.
 
 Visit:
 
 What parts of the Bible do Muslims believe are closest to the Truth?
  http://answering-christianity.com/warning.htm - http://answering-christianity.com/warning.htm
 
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

But since you did post this one verse from the Gospel of St. John, I'll add a couple more verses so that you can see what Jesus was really stating:
 
 Let's see
 
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

John 4:20-26 (New International Version)

20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

 
 How can Jesus deserves a worship when he himself clearly worships his father?
 
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 
26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
 
 "I who speak to you am he" It simply proves that Jesus was Messiah(he)
 
 Here is proper response
  http://books.google.com.pk/books?id=ISQw9ojVazsC&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=I+who+speak+to+you+am+he.&source=web&ots=ApSjheNU3X&sig=3xU-wLyROfX9U0Fckal_uZkEPuU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result - http://books.google.com.pk/books?id=ISQw9ojVazsC&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=%22I+who+speak+to+you+am+he.%22&source=web&ots=ApSjheNU3X&sig=3xU-wLyROfX9U0Fckal_uZkEPuU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result
 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 04 December 2008 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=16&version=31&context=verse -
 
Deuteronomy 32:16
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.
Hasan
 
 
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.
 
 
 
 
Dear Patty,
I note that in your quote above its someone other than Jesus that is saying what it is saying: i.e. "Jesus Christ be worshipped."
 
Here is a quote from the same Bible, and these words suppose to be coming out of the mouth of Jesus, and here it is as if he is speaking, delivering a command, let's read it:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Hasan


 
 
Yes, Hasan, it is God who is speaking in the verse above from Deuteronomy.  Hasan, I thought Muslims did not believe in the NT, yet you are quoting a verse from St. John, one of the four Gospels in the NT.  Why would you believe this verse?  But since you did post this one verse from the Gospel of St. John, I'll add a couple more verses so that you can see what Jesus was really stating:
 

John 4:20-26 (New International Version)

20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 

26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
 
God's Peace,
Patty

 
Dear Patty,
let me clear out your confusion, I do not believe the present form of what we now know as the Bible to be God's pure word sent down to prophets before the last prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The reason I quote from it is to show those who believe in it when engaged in a conversation like this to prove or disprove a claim.
Deuteronomy 32:16 was to show you that God does not like the worship of other than God, also it shows that God does not like idols be worshipped. That and many other verses in the Bible, including that of the ten commandments clearly state not erecting idols of God or any living thing for the purpose of worship. I mention that to show Catholics that by making representations of any living thing, praying and bowing down to them is against the teachings of not just the Quran, but the very book they claim to be guiding them!
 
In response you wrote the folowing:
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity."
 
Now to show you that your quote of worshipping Jesus cannot be true since in the same Bible Jesus is quoted to have said that actually its God (the Father) that to be worshipped. Here is that quote again:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
 
So my use of these quotes from the Bible is to show you, who believe in it to be true word of God, that it also negate almost every claim you make and prove through it.
Hasan
 
 
T
 
I maintain the accuracy and truthfulness of the Holy Bible which was sent to the apostles and disciples from God.  You do not believe it, and that is your right.  Jesus warned of false prophets who would follow him, and warned us to beware of them. 
 
Hasan, we will just have to agree to disagree.  This dialogue is a stalemate.  You are devoted to your faith, and I am just as devoted to mine.
 
I wish you peace.
 
Patty
 
Dear Patty,
the purpose of whole this hard work is not to say "I believe this and you believe that and we are not going to agree with each other, and yet keep bringing up issues!" rather to back up our claims upon which we profess to build our faiths.
You made a claim, backed it up by a source. The same source should not contradict it, if it does then either: your claim is not true, or your source is inconsistant.  There is no hidden truth about it other than that.
 
Simple truth of what we discussed above is that you through a Bible quote claimed that Jesus to be worshipped, I through another quote from the same book showed you that it is not to be true, and in fact God, the Father is the only one to be worshipped. Now without taking sides, your claim was proven wrong dear, plain and simple.
 
If I claim, which I do that only God, whom Bible refers as 'Father' is to be worshipped according to the Quran, and then you happen to find a quote that shows somone else to be worshipped, then you have proved me wrong, that simple.
 
Dear, first we have to test and prove a claim we make before we put our trust, and everything else into it.
 
Let us apply that simple rule, what we expect when we sign next credit card sales reciept, or a bank, car or legal document. When we sign it after reading /knowing/ understanding and making sure it does not have a descripency we don't get surpises like we do otherwise, when we don't pay attention and sign without reading or understanding it. Is hereafter of less value, or we jsut don't believe it to be true??
 
Hasan
 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 05 December 2008 at 3:43am
Dear Ali,
 
You stated this
 
"We believe only in those parts of Bible which are closest to Quran.We donot reject a Bible as a whole."
 
Uh, huh.....well it speaks volumes to know that you "pick and choose" which parts of the Bible to believe and which to disregard.  No, the Bible is inspired by God.  Every single word of it.  How easy it would be to say "I think I'll believe God/Jesus said this, but I don't like that part, so I'll reject it."  It is therefore a moot point to have a mature dialogue when you do not believe the inspired word of God.
 
Peace to you,
Patty
 


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 05 December 2008 at 3:49am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=16&version=31&context=verse -
 
Deuteronomy 32:16
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.
Hasan
 
 
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.
 
 
 
 
Dear Patty,
I note that in your quote above its someone other than Jesus that is saying what it is saying: i.e. "Jesus Christ be worshipped."
 
Here is a quote from the same Bible, and these words suppose to be coming out of the mouth of Jesus, and here it is as if he is speaking, delivering a command, let's read it:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Hasan


 
 
Yes, Hasan, it is God who is speaking in the verse above from Deuteronomy.  Hasan, I thought Muslims did not believe in the NT, yet you are quoting a verse from St. John, one of the four Gospels in the NT.  Why would you believe this verse?  But since you did post this one verse from the Gospel of St. John, I'll add a couple more verses so that you can see what Jesus was really stating:
 

John 4:20-26 (New International Version)

20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 

26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
 
God's Peace,
Patty

 
Dear Patty,
let me clear out your confusion, I do not believe the present form of what we now know as the Bible to be God's pure word sent down to prophets before the last prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The reason I quote from it is to show those who believe in it when engaged in a conversation like this to prove or disprove a claim.
Deuteronomy 32:16 was to show you that God does not like the worship of other than God, also it shows that God does not like idols be worshipped. That and many other verses in the Bible, including that of the ten commandments clearly state not erecting idols of God or any living thing for the purpose of worship. I mention that to show Catholics that by making representations of any living thing, praying and bowing down to them is against the teachings of not just the Quran, but the very book they claim to be guiding them!
 
In response you wrote the folowing:
 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity."
 
Now to show you that your quote of worshipping Jesus cannot be true since in the same Bible Jesus is quoted to have said that actually its God (the Father) that to be worshipped. Here is that quote again:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
 
So my use of these quotes from the Bible is to show you, who believe in it to be true word of God, that it also negate almost every claim you make and prove through it.
Hasan
 
 
T
 
I maintain the accuracy and truthfulness of the Holy Bible which was sent to the apostles and disciples from God.  You do not believe it, and that is your right.  Jesus warned of false prophets who would follow him, and warned us to beware of them. 
 
Hasan, we will just have to agree to disagree.  This dialogue is a stalemate.  You are devoted to your faith, and I am just as devoted to mine.
 
I wish you peace.
 
Patty
 
Dear Patty,
the purpose of whole this hard work is not to say "I believe this and you believe that and we are not going to agree with each other, and yet keep bringing up issues!" rather to back up our claims upon which we profess to build our faiths.
You made a claim, backed it up by a source. The same source should not contradict it, if it does then either: your claim is not true, or your source is inconsistant.  There is no hidden truth about it other than that.
 
Simple truth of what we discussed above is that you through a Bible quote claimed that Jesus to be worshipped, I through another quote from the same book showed you that it is not to be true, and in fact God, the Father is the only one to be worshipped. Now without taking sides, your claim was proven wrong dear, plain and simple.
 
If I claim, which I do that only God, whom Bible refers as 'Father' is to be worshipped according to the Quran, and then you happen to find a quote that shows somone else to be worshipped, then you have proved me wrong, that simple.
 
Dear, first we have to test and prove a claim we make before we put our trust, and everything else into it.
 
Let us apply that simple rule, what we expect when we sign next credit card sales reciept, or a bank, car or legal document. When we sign it after reading /knowing/ understanding and making sure it does not have a descripency we don't get surpises like we do otherwise, when we don't pay attention and sign without reading or understanding it. Is hereafter of less value, or we jsut don't believe it to be true??
 
Hasan
 
 
There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan.  The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit.  We pray, "Praise the Holy Trinity, UNDIVIDED UNITY, etc., but this is a concept you cannot grasp, it takes a great amount of faith, it is a mystery....and without belief in the Trinity you are confusing the sameness of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.  I cannot explain it to you, obviously.  Perhaps someone with more elequent speech will be more successful.  Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
 
Kind Regards,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 06 December 2008 at 10:07am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Dear Ali,
 
You stated this
 
"We believe only in those parts of Bible which are closest to Quran.We donot reject a Bible as a whole."
 
Uh, huh.....well it speaks volumes to know that you "pick and choose" which parts of the Bible to believe and which to disregard.  No, the Bible is inspired by God.  Every single word of it.  How easy it would be to say "I think I'll believe God/Jesus said this, but I don't like that part, so I'll reject it."  It is therefore a moot point to have a mature dialogue when you do not believe the inspired word of God.
 
Peace to you,
Patty
 


 To PattyaMainer

 Bible inspired word of God?Who says that?And by the way which Bible you are talking about?Are you talking about Protestant Bible which contains 66 books?or you are talking about Catholic Bible which contains 73 books?Which Bible or the books are inspired?Is it the Greek Orthodox,Ethiopic,Coptic,or the Syriac?

 I think you need to know about the history of the Bible.

 Visit:
 
Textual Integrity Of The Bible
  http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 06 December 2008 at 10:16am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer


There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan.  The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit.  We pray, "Praise the Holy Trinity, UNDIVIDED UNITY, etc., but this is a concept you cannot grasp, it takes a great amount of faith, it is a mystery....


 Why isn't the trinity Logical? (It doesn't make sense).
 
How can people believe in the trinity if they don't understand it?
 
If we don't need to understand the trinity and we need to just believe, then  why did god give us a brain?

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

and without belief in the Trinity you are confusing the sameness of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.  I cannot explain it to you, obviously.  Perhaps someone with more elequent speech will be more successful.  Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
 
Kind Regards,
Patty


 Claim 1>. Jesus says, " I and the Father are One (John 10:30)."

It is claimed on the basis of this quotation (which is almost always presented without its context) that Jesus was claiming equality with God. The problem with this assertion is that the context has been taken out, either deliberately or out of ignorance.

Beginning at verse 23 of the Gospel of John, chapter 10 we read (in the context of 10:30) about Jesus talking to the Jews. In verse 28, talking about his followers as his sheep, he states: "...Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29)My Father who gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30) I and the Father are One."

The above verses prove only that Jesus and the Father are one in that no man can pluck the sheep out of either's hand. It does not at all state that Jesus is God's equal in everything. In fact the words of Jesus, " My Father, who gave them me is Greater than ALL...," completely negates this claim, otherwise we are left with a contradiction just a sentence apart. All includes everyone even Jesus.


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 07 December 2008 at 4:45am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Dear Ali,
 
You stated this
 
"We believe only in those parts of Bible which are closest to Quran.We donot reject a Bible as a whole."
 
Uh, huh.....well it speaks volumes to know that you "pick and choose" which parts of the Bible to believe and which to disregard.  No, the Bible is inspired by God.  Every single word of it.  How easy it would be to say "I think I'll believe God/Jesus said this, but I don't like that part, so I'll reject it."  It is therefore a moot point to have a mature dialogue when you do not believe the inspired word of God.
 
Peace to you,
Patty
 


 To PattyaMainer

 Bible inspired word of God?Who says that?And by the way which Bible you are talking about?Are you talking about Protestant Bible which contains 66 books?or you are talking about Catholic Bible which contains 73 books?Which Bible or the books are inspired?Is it the Greek Orthodox,Ethiopic,Coptic,or the Syriac?

 I think you need to know about the history of the Bible.

 Visit:
 
Textual Integrity Of The Bible
  http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/ - http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/
 
I believe in the Catholic Bible, of course.  Ali, I have studied the Bible and the history of the life of Jesus, the Holy Land, tradition, culture, etc., etc., longer than you havae probably been alive.  You do not believe and YOU take the true meaing of the Bible out of context.  So, you think I need to kow the history of the bible?  This did give me a little chuckle!  I cannot discuss my Bible with you when you have been convinced it is a false book.  What's to discuss?  You don't believe it, and nothing I could present would change your mind.  Yes you believe everything you read in the Qur'an without question.  I could present much evidence and pose many questions as to discrepancies and false statements in your Holy Book, but out of respect for your religion and beliefs I choose not to do so.
 
Peace,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 08 December 2008 at 9:34am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
I believe in the Catholic Bible, of course.  Ali, I have studied the Bible and the history of the life of Jesus, the Holy Land, tradition, culture, etc., etc., longer than you havae probably been alive.  You do not believe and YOU take the true meaing of the Bible out of context.  So, you think I need to kow the history of the bible?  This did give me a little chuckle!  I cannot discuss my Bible with you when you have been convinced it is a false book.  What's to discuss?  You don't believe it, and nothing I could present would change your mind.  Yes you believe everything you read in the Qur'an without question.  I could present much evidence and pose many questions as to discrepancies and false statements in your Holy Book, but out of respect for your religion and beliefs I choose not to do so.
 
Peace,
Patty


 So here is challenge to prove any single discrepancie and false statement in Quran.

 Here is little example of corruption in your Bible which you supposed to be Holy.

 

mark16_corruption.jpg%20%2854552%20bytes%29

 ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31; - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31; )

The above text reads: "The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20."

Now my concern to this corruption and 'answer-the-problem-away' statement is that what are those so-called "reliable early manuscript(s)" and who are the "ancient witnesses"?

 If the "gospel of Mark" was indeed Divine and from GOD Almighty, then we wouldn't have this corruption, that they're admitting above, in it.

Further regarding this Gospel, we read the following commentary about Mark 16:9-20:

"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark.  They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark.  His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost(From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

 The quote "or its original ending has been lost" proves that what we call today "Gospels" were not written by their original authors such as Mark, John, Matthew, etc.It proves that the Gospel had been tampered with by man.

 If John Mark wasn't the one who wrote Mark 16:9-20, then who did? And how can you prove the ownership of the other person?

 



Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 08 December 2008 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
I believe in the Catholic Bible, of course.  Ali, I have studied the Bible and the history of the life of Jesus, the Holy Land, tradition, culture, etc., etc., longer than you havae probably been alive.  You do not believe and YOU take the true meaing of the Bible out of context.  So, you think I need to kow the history of the bible?  This did give me a little chuckle!  I cannot discuss my Bible with you when you have been convinced it is a false book.  What's to discuss?  You don't believe it, and nothing I could present would change your mind.  Yes you believe everything you read in the Qur'an without question.  I could present much evidence and pose many questions as to discrepancies and false statements in your Holy Book, but out of respect for your religion and beliefs I choose not to do so.
 
Peace,
Patty


 So here is challenge to prove any single discrepancie and false statement in Quran.

 Here is little example of corruption in your Bible which you supposed to be Holy.

 

mark16_corruption.jpg%20%2854552%20bytes%29

 ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31; - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:9-20;&version=31; )

The above text reads: "The most reliable early manuscript and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20."

Now my concern to this corruption and 'answer-the-problem-away' statement is that what are those so-called "reliable early manuscript(s)" and who are the "ancient witnesses"?

 If the "gospel of Mark" was indeed Divine and from GOD Almighty, then we wouldn't have this corruption, that they're admitting above, in it.

Further regarding this Gospel, we read the following commentary about Mark 16:9-20:

"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark.  They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark.  His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost(From the NIV Bible Foot Notes, page 1528)"

 The quote "or its original ending has been lost" proves that what we call today "Gospels" were not written by their original authors such as Mark, John, Matthew, etc.It proves that the Gospel had been tampered with by man.

 If John Mark wasn't the one who wrote Mark 16:9-20, then who did? And how can you prove the ownership of the other person?

 

 
This has been given great study by theologians from the Vatican.  Here is one brief response:
 
This passage of Mark 16:9-20 is sometimes called "The Longer Ending". This designation is in comparison to the shorter ending found in some less important manuscripts.

Citations from the early Church Fathers indicate that this passage was composed in the first century. The vocabulary and style of the passage, however, indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark.

The issue, however, is not really whether or not Mark wrote the passage or if it was added later. The only real issue is whether is belongs in the canon of inspired Sacred Scripture.

Tradition has always considered this passage as Scripture, but if there were any doubts the Council of Trent officially and infallibly declared this passage to be part of the canon of Mark.

The passage certainly is a true statement. The footnotes of the NAB remark: "It is, in essence a general resume of the material concerning the appearances of the risen Jesus, refelcting, in particular, traditions found in Luke 24 and John 20."

Bottomline: it looks like Mark did not write this passage of Mark 16:9-20, but nevertheless the Church has declared the passage to be Sacred Scripture.
 
Bro. Ignatius Mary
 
 
Kind Regards,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 December 2008 at 4:06pm
Dear Patty,
 
you wrote:
 " There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan."
Good, you say that, but it needs to show in our practice as such.
 
 "The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit."
 
Look Patty, common sense tells us that someone who is born to another human. Ate, walked around, worshiped his creator, cried and called for help to God cannot be God.
Per your insistance suppose I take your claim serious for a moment, you are unable to give me a single prove from the book you believe it says so. Where, have you found a verse where Jesus, the servant of God even claimed to be God? If you cannot bring out a prove to back up your claim. I request you not to make such a false claim because you heard others do that.
You may be older and more knowledgeable than many of us, but does that make you right for sure, I would be careful making any claims rather try to bring out evidance to support my claim or admit that I have been led by other without poofs or knowledge.
It is not that I am slow at learning thus unable to grasp Trinity. My dear Patty, its something many devout Christians themselves don't understand, let alone to convince another. Many former Christians have told me that they never grasped what it was rather were told that it was, and it was a mystry.
I don't know about you but I would not sign my next lease if I see any blanks or unclear contents in there and am told not to worry, its just a mystry, just sign it you will be fine."  No thank you. Its funny how lightly we take something with graver consequences.
 
Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
Are you kidding me with that one? Where did Jesus said, "I am God worship me in that quote" Obviously if (as you claim) He was God, He would tell others about it and tell them to worship him. God has addressed to mankind, and told them throughout (in Bible and in Quran as well) " I am your God, worship me. And you should not take anyone else as God"
Now, if Jesus was God, as you claim, where is that claim as it should be: " I am Jesus, your God, you should worship me"?????
And that "one" thing don't fulfill the claim just look at this quote:

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name— the name you gave meso that they may be one as we are one.

 
And remember, its not about faith or this and that. Its two adults trying to make their points. You claim he was God, but you have no convincing prove of that. Should we still believe you because you are older than most of us, know more and have been reading Bible before I opened my eyes in this world, are a white American lady, living in Maine? I respect all of that my dear, but we are talking here something as simple as 2+2 in my opinion.
Your claim of Jesus being God, is without a proof, but I have given you saveral quotes to show you (and that's according to the same book you believe) that Jesus was a man, a prophet, a great guide for mankind, born to a virgin, Virgin Mary, a great woman, a human who did not worship her son.
 
May God guide us all to the truth, our only saviour.
 
 
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 08 December 2008 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by honeto

Dear Patty,
 
you wrote:
 " There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan."
Good, you say that, but it needs to show in our practice as such.
 
 "The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit."
 
Look Patty, common sense tells us that someone who is born to another human. Ate, walked around, worshiped his creator, cried and called for help to God cannot be God.
Per your insistance suppose I take your claim serious for a moment, you are unable to give me a single prove from the book you believe it says so. Where, have you found a verse where Jesus, the servant of God even claimed to be God? If you cannot bring out a prove to back up your claim. I request you not to make such a false claim because you heard others do that.
You may be older and more knowledgeable than many of us, but does that make you right for sure, I would be careful making any claims rather try to bring out evidance to support my claim or admit that I have been led by other without poofs or knowledge.
It is not that I am slow at learning thus unable to grasp Trinity. My dear Patty, its something many devout Christians themselves don't understand, let alone to convince another. Many former Christians have told me that they never grasped what it was rather were told that it was, and it was a mystry.
I don't know about you but I would not sign my next lease if I see any blanks or unclear contents in there and am told not to worry, its just a mystry, just sign it you will be fine."  No thank you. Its funny how lightly we take something with graver consequences.
 
Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
Are you kidding me with that one? Where did Jesus said, "I am God worship me in that quote" Obviously if (as you claim) He was God, He would tell others about it and tell them to worship him. God has addressed to mankind, and told them throughout (in Bible and in Quran as well) " I am your God, worship me. And you should not take anyone else as God"
Now, if Jesus was God, as you claim, where is that claim as it should be: " I am Jesus, your God, you should worship me"?????
And that "one" thing don't fulfill the claim just look at this quote:

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name— the name you gave meso that they may be one as we are one.

 
And remember, its not about faith or this and that. Its two adults trying to make their points. You claim he was God, but you have no convincing prove of that. Should we still believe you because you are older than most of us, know more and have been reading Bible before I opened my eyes in this world, are a white American lady, living in Maine? I respect all of that my dear, but we are talking here something as simple as 2+2 in my opinion.
Your claim of Jesus being God, is without a proof, but I have given you saveral quotes to show you (and that's according to the same book you believe) that Jesus was a man, a prophet, a great guide for mankind, born to a virgin, Virgin Mary, a great woman, a human who did not worship her son.
 
May God guide us all to the truth, our only saviour.
 
 
Hasan
 
Dear Hasan,
 
I am not in any manner demanding respect from you or anyone else.  You are not obligated to respect be because of age, culture, religion, ethnicity, or any other reason.  I am simply explaining my beliefs to you.  I will offer the following to you:
 

Matthew 4:3-11

This famous passage, about Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil, is not just a romantic story, nor is it just the devil trying to cause Jesus as a man to fall. In the passage Jesus says that He was God.

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.

The devil persists in trying to get Jesus to do his bidding, and Jesus replied: “It is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (verse 7). He was referring to God as a Trinity (including Himself), not only to the Father, for Satan was trying to tempt (or test) Jesus on this earth. He distinctly says He was the Lord God in this verse. In verse 10 Jesus underlines His being God by saying “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”  This was a remarkable piece of verbal structure, for it does two things – it tells Satan that Jesus (as Man) could not worship a creature because only God is to be worshiped and, it tells him that he must only worship Him, Jesus Christ, for He is God.

There are many, many verses in the OT and NT which indicate that Jesus is God.  You have to read them with an open mind and without prejudice.  I wish you peace and understanding, Hasan.
 
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 December 2008 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Dear Patty,
 
you wrote:
 " There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan."
Good, you say that, but it needs to show in our practice as such.
 
 "The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit."
 
Look Patty, common sense tells us that someone who is born to another human. Ate, walked around, worshiped his creator, cried and called for help to God cannot be God.
Per your insistance suppose I take your claim serious for a moment, you are unable to give me a single prove from the book you believe it says so. Where, have you found a verse where Jesus, the servant of God even claimed to be God? If you cannot bring out a prove to back up your claim. I request you not to make such a false claim because you heard others do that.
You may be older and more knowledgeable than many of us, but does that make you right for sure, I would be careful making any claims rather try to bring out evidance to support my claim or admit that I have been led by other without poofs or knowledge.
It is not that I am slow at learning thus unable to grasp Trinity. My dear Patty, its something many devout Christians themselves don't understand, let alone to convince another. Many former Christians have told me that they never grasped what it was rather were told that it was, and it was a mystry.
I don't know about you but I would not sign my next lease if I see any blanks or unclear contents in there and am told not to worry, its just a mystry, just sign it you will be fine."  No thank you. Its funny how lightly we take something with graver consequences.
 
Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
Are you kidding me with that one? Where did Jesus said, "I am God worship me in that quote" Obviously if (as you claim) He was God, He would tell others about it and tell them to worship him. God has addressed to mankind, and told them throughout (in Bible and in Quran as well) " I am your God, worship me. And you should not take anyone else as God"
Now, if Jesus was God, as you claim, where is that claim as it should be: " I am Jesus, your God, you should worship me"?????
And that "one" thing don't fulfill the claim just look at this quote:

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name— the name you gave meso that they may be one as we are one.

 
And remember, its not about faith or this and that. Its two adults trying to make their points. You claim he was God, but you have no convincing prove of that. Should we still believe you because you are older than most of us, know more and have been reading Bible before I opened my eyes in this world, are a white American lady, living in Maine? I respect all of that my dear, but we are talking here something as simple as 2+2 in my opinion.
Your claim of Jesus being God, is without a proof, but I have given you saveral quotes to show you (and that's according to the same book you believe) that Jesus was a man, a prophet, a great guide for mankind, born to a virgin, Virgin Mary, a great woman, a human who did not worship her son.
 
May God guide us all to the truth, our only saviour.
 
 
Hasan
 
Dear Hasan,
 
I am not in any manner demanding respect from you or anyone else.  You are not obligated to respect be because of age, culture, religion, ethnicity, or any other reason.  I am simply explaining my beliefs to you.  I will offer the following to you:
 

Matthew 4:3-11

This famous passage, about Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil, is not just a romantic story, nor is it just the devil trying to cause Jesus as a man to fall. In the passage Jesus says that He was God.

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.

The devil persists in trying to get Jesus to do his bidding, and Jesus replied: “It is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (verse 7). He was referring to God as a Trinity (including Himself), not only to the Father, for Satan was trying to tempt (or test) Jesus on this earth. He distinctly says He was the Lord God in this verse. In verse 10 Jesus underlines His being God by saying “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”  This was a remarkable piece of verbal structure, for it does two things – it tells Satan that Jesus (as Man) could not worship a creature because only God is to be worshiped and, it tells him that he must only worship Him, Jesus Christ, for He is God.

There are many, many verses in the OT and NT which indicate that Jesus is God.  You have to read them with an open mind and without prejudice.  I wish you peace and understanding, Hasan.
 
Patty
 
Patty,
you suggest I read with an open mind and without prejudice. Let us do that, let us not assume what the hidden meaning vs what the words itself mean.
 
Here is that quote you are talking about as it appears in a Bible: 
Matthew 4:3-11 The tempter came to him. He said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."

 4 Jesus answered, "It is written, 'Man doesn't live only on bread. He also lives on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

 5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. It is written,
   " 'The Lord will command his angels to take good care of you.
      They will lift you up in their hands.
   Then you won't trip over a stone.' " 
 7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'  8 Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 "If you bow down and worship me," he said, "I will give you all of this."

 10 Jesus said to him, "Get away from me, Satan! It is written, 'Worship the Lord your God. He is the only one you should serve.'

 11 Then the devil left Jesus. Angels came and took care of him.

 
I do not see anything in these verses that leads me to beleive that Jesus is God, or as you see. And let me break it down so all can see.
 
3 The tempter came to him. He said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
 
"Son of God" that's what it reads, nowhere it says God. And as we know there are several sons of God in the Bible beside Jesus, that means having called son of God is not calling God. Otherwise all of those refered as sons of God in the Bible will qualify to be God as well.
 
 5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
Just read it: 'devil took Jesus', first it says Jesus, the name given to son of Mary. It does not say God.
Second, 'devil took him' sounds like, if you are God, your own creation will take you around? You ask me to be open and without prejudice, I ask you to be a bit sensible about what and who God is, He is certainly not a joke, "He had him (God according to your claim) stand on the highest point of the temple.
 
As we further read:
6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. It is written,
   " 'The Lord will command his angels to take good care of you.
 Sounds like God will be saved by His angels if we assume Jesus to be God.
      
..They will lift you up in their hands.  (so the angles will lift up God to safety?? according to you.)
   Then you won't trip over a stone.' "  7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'  8 Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 "If you bow down and worship me," he said, "I will give you all of this."
 
Patty, all of this goes against your argument. No Creation of God will try and never can subjugate His Creator and maker who has control over all. Hence this quote actually proves that Jesus was a servant of God and not God. The devil was trying and tempting him to leave the worship of God, and turn in to worhip him instead.
 
Let us give this an honest evaluation.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 09 December 2008 at 4:06am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Dear Patty,
 
you wrote:
 " There is no worship of anyone other than God, Hasan."
Good, you say that, but it needs to show in our practice as such.
 
 "The point you cannot understand or believe is the Trinity.  Jesus IS God.  So is the Holy Spirit."
 
Look Patty, common sense tells us that someone who is born to another human. Ate, walked around, worshiped his creator, cried and called for help to God cannot be God.
Per your insistance suppose I take your claim serious for a moment, you are unable to give me a single prove from the book you believe it says so. Where, have you found a verse where Jesus, the servant of God even claimed to be God? If you cannot bring out a prove to back up your claim. I request you not to make such a false claim because you heard others do that.
You may be older and more knowledgeable than many of us, but does that make you right for sure, I would be careful making any claims rather try to bring out evidance to support my claim or admit that I have been led by other without poofs or knowledge.
It is not that I am slow at learning thus unable to grasp Trinity. My dear Patty, its something many devout Christians themselves don't understand, let alone to convince another. Many former Christians have told me that they never grasped what it was rather were told that it was, and it was a mystry.
I don't know about you but I would not sign my next lease if I see any blanks or unclear contents in there and am told not to worry, its just a mystry, just sign it you will be fine."  No thank you. Its funny how lightly we take something with graver consequences.
 
Jesus is God "The Father and I are ONE."
Are you kidding me with that one? Where did Jesus said, "I am God worship me in that quote" Obviously if (as you claim) He was God, He would tell others about it and tell them to worship him. God has addressed to mankind, and told them throughout (in Bible and in Quran as well) " I am your God, worship me. And you should not take anyone else as God"
Now, if Jesus was God, as you claim, where is that claim as it should be: " I am Jesus, your God, you should worship me"?????
And that "one" thing don't fulfill the claim just look at this quote:

John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name— the name you gave meso that they may be one as we are one.

 
And remember, its not about faith or this and that. Its two adults trying to make their points. You claim he was God, but you have no convincing prove of that. Should we still believe you because you are older than most of us, know more and have been reading Bible before I opened my eyes in this world, are a white American lady, living in Maine? I respect all of that my dear, but we are talking here something as simple as 2+2 in my opinion.
Your claim of Jesus being God, is without a proof, but I have given you saveral quotes to show you (and that's according to the same book you believe) that Jesus was a man, a prophet, a great guide for mankind, born to a virgin, Virgin Mary, a great woman, a human who did not worship her son.
 
May God guide us all to the truth, our only saviour.
 
 
Hasan
 
Dear Hasan,
 
I am not in any manner demanding respect from you or anyone else.  You are not obligated to respect be because of age, culture, religion, ethnicity, or any other reason.  I am simply explaining my beliefs to you.  I will offer the following to you:
 

Matthew 4:3-11

This famous passage, about Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil, is not just a romantic story, nor is it just the devil trying to cause Jesus as a man to fall. In the passage Jesus says that He was God.

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.

The devil persists in trying to get Jesus to do his bidding, and Jesus replied: “It is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (verse 7). He was referring to God as a Trinity (including Himself), not only to the Father, for Satan was trying to tempt (or test) Jesus on this earth. He distinctly says He was the Lord God in this verse. In verse 10 Jesus underlines His being God by saying “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”  This was a remarkable piece of verbal structure, for it does two things – it tells Satan that Jesus (as Man) could not worship a creature because only God is to be worshiped and, it tells him that he must only worship Him, Jesus Christ, for He is God.

There are many, many verses in the OT and NT which indicate that Jesus is God.  You have to read them with an open mind and without prejudice.  I wish you peace and understanding, Hasan.
 
Patty
 
Patty,
you suggest I read with an open mind and without prejudice. Let us do that, let us not assume what the hidden meaning vs what the words itself mean.
 
Here is that quote you are talking about as it appears in a Bible: 
Matthew 4:3-11 The tempter came to him. He said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."

 4 Jesus answered, "It is written, 'Man doesn't live only on bread. He also lives on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'

 5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. It is written,
   " 'The Lord will command his angels to take good care of you.
      They will lift you up in their hands.
   Then you won't trip over a stone.' " 
 7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'  8 Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 "If you bow down and worship me," he said, "I will give you all of this."

 10 Jesus said to him, "Get away from me, Satan! It is written, 'Worship the Lord your God. He is the only one you should serve.'

 11 Then the devil left Jesus. Angels came and took care of him.

 
I do not see anything in these verses that leads me to beleive that Jesus is God, or as you see. And let me break it down so all can see.
 
3 The tempter came to him. He said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
 
"Son of God" that's what it reads, nowhere it says God. And as we know there are several sons of God in the Bible beside Jesus, that means having called son of God is not calling God. Otherwise all of those refered as sons of God in the Bible will qualify to be God as well.
 
 5 Then the devil took Jesus to the holy city. He had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
Just read it: 'devil took Jesus', first it says Jesus, the name given to son of Mary. It does not say God.
Second, 'devil took him' sounds like, if you are God, your own creation will take you around? You ask me to be open and without prejudice, I ask you to be a bit sensible about what and who God is, He is certainly not a joke, "He had him (God according to your claim) stand on the highest point of the temple.
 
As we further read:
6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. It is written,
   " 'The Lord will command his angels to take good care of you.
 Sounds like God will be saved by His angels if we assume Jesus to be God.
      
..They will lift you up in their hands.  (so the angles will lift up God to safety?? according to you.)
   Then you won't trip over a stone.' "  7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'  8 Finally, the devil took Jesus to a very high mountain. He showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 "If you bow down and worship me," he said, "I will give you all of this."
 
Patty, all of this goes against your argument. No Creation of God will try and never can subjugate His Creator and maker who has control over all. Hence this quote actually proves that Jesus was a servant of God and not God. The devil was trying and tempting him to leave the worship of God, and turn in to worhip him instead.
 
Let us give this an honest evaluation.
Hasan
Dear Hasan,
 
With all due respect, I see no point in continuing this "dialogue."  It is pointless on a Muslim forum.  I have given you many scriptures which prove my point, but being the good Muslim you are, you turn to other verses, or take the verses out of context, etc.  I know what is the Truth, and I know you believe just as strongly that you have the truth.
 
I wish you well, but God does not expect me to continue on in a situation where the other person cannot see what is being presented.  You have a perfect right to believe as you do.  And I have just as much right to believe as I do.  With religious issues, one can very rarely ever change the mind of a person who believes differently from what you believe.  Such is the case here.  You are not really interested in hearing what I have to say.  You only use my words as an "opportunity" to twist them into YOUR interpretation.  It takes many years of study, and a lot of prayer and faith to understand the meaning of scriptures.  You do not want to understand them, only discredit them.  And so I will not respond any longer.  I have the true understanding of holy scriptures and the faith in God to believe what is being stated in His Word.  Also, I have never once questioned your holy book or Mohammed.....I do not believe in doing that, even though there are MANY questions I could have posed.  It would only cause hard feelings, which I definitely do not want here.
 
You take your path, and I will continue on mine.  Peace and good will to you, Hasan.  Goodbye.
 
Patty
 
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Akhe Abdullah
Date Posted: 09 December 2008 at 6:14am
Originally posted by honeto

As salaamulaikum Honeto.I dont know why you bother with this women.As you know we cannot make the blind to see or the deaf to hear.To us be our religion and to them be theirs.
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=32&verse=16&version=31&context=verse - -
 

Deuteronomy 32:16[/COLOR - They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.


Hasan

 

 

 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity.

 

 

 

 

Dear Patty,

I note that in your quote above its someone other than Jesus that is saying what it is saying: i.e. "Jesus Christ be worshipped."

 

Here is a quote from the same Bible, and these words suppose to be coming out of the mouth of Jesus, and here it is as if he is speaking, delivering a command, let's read it:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - - John 4:23[/COLOR - Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Hasan


 

 

Yes, Hasan, it is God who is speaking in the verse above from Deuteronomy.  Hasan, I thought Muslims did not believe in the NT, yet you are quoting a verse from St. John, one of the four Gospels in the NT.  Why would you believe this verse?  But since you did post this one verse from the Gospel of St. John, I'll add a couple more verses so that you can see what Jesus was really stating:

 


<H3>John 4:20-26 (New International Version)</H3>
<DIV ="result-text-style-normal">

<SPAN id=en-NIV-26167 ="sup">20</SPAN>Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

 <SPAN id=en-NIV-26168 ="sup">21</SPAN>Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. <SPAN id=en-NIV-26169 ="sup">22</SPAN>You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. <SPAN id=en-NIV-26170 ="sup">23</SPAN>Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. <SPAN id=en-NIV-26171 ="sup">24</SPAN>God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

 <SPAN id=en-NIV-26172 ="sup">25</SPAN>The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 

<SPAN id=en-NIV-26173 ="sup">26</SPAN>Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

 

God's Peace,

Patty

<DIV ="result-text-style-normal">

 

Dear Patty,

let me clear out your confusion, I do not believe the present form of what we now know as the Bible to be God's pure word sent down to prophets before the last prophet, Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). The reason I quote from it is to show those who believe in it when engaged in a conversation like this to prove or disprove a claim.

Deuteronomy 32:16 was to show you that God does not like the worship of other than God, also it shows that God does not like idols be worshipped. That and many other verses in the Bible, including that of the ten commandments clearly state not erecting idols of God or any living thing for the purpose of worship. I mention that to show Catholics that by making representations of any living thing, praying and bowing down to them is against the teachings of not just the Quran, but the very book they claim to be guiding them!

 

In response you wrote the folowing:

 "That in the Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth..." (Phil. 2:10) It follows then, that it is of the Faith (de Fide) that Jesus Christ is to be worshipped by all men, with the gesture of adoration, which is kneeling before Him in His Sacred Humanity."

 

Now to show you that your quote of worshipping Jesus cannot be true since in the same Bible Jesus is quoted to have said that actually its God (the Father) that to be worshipped. Here is that quote again:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse - - John 4:23[/COLOR - Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

 

So my use of these quotes from the Bible is to show you, who believe in it to be true word of God, that it also negate almost every claim you make and prove through it.

Hasan

 

 

T

 

I maintain the accuracy and truthfulness of the Holy Bible which was sent to the apostles and disciples from God.  You do not believe it, and that is your right.  Jesus warned of false prophets who would follow him, and warned us to beware of them. 

 

Hasan, we will just have to agree to disagree.  This dialogue is a stalemate.  You are devoted to your faith, and I am just as devoted to mine.

 

I wish you peace.

 

Patty

 

Dear Patty,

the purpose of whole this hard work is not to say "I believe this and you believe that and we are not going to agree with each other, and yet keep bringing up issues!" rather to back up our claims upon which we profess to build our faiths.

You made a claim, backed it up by a source. The same source should not contradict it, if it does then either: your claim is not true, or your source is inconsistant.  There is no hidden truth about it other than that.

 

Simple truth of what we discussed above is that you through a Bible quote claimed that Jesus to be worshipped, I through another quote from the same book showed you that it is not to be true, and in fact God, the Father is the only one to be worshipped. Now without taking sides, your claim was proven wrong dear, plain and simple.

 

If I claim, which I do that only God, whom Bible refers as 'Father' is to be worshipped according to the Quran, and then you happen to find a quote that shows somone else to be worshipped, then you have proved me wrong, that simple.

 

Dear, first we have to test and prove a claim we make before we put our trust, and everything else into it.

 

Let us apply that simple rule, what we expect when we sign next credit card sales reciept, or a bank, car or legal document. When we sign it after reading /knowing/ understanding and making sure it does not have a descripency we don't get surpises like we do otherwise, when we don't pay attention and sign without reading or understanding it. Is hereafter of less value, or we jsut don't believe it to be true??

 

Hasan

 
Surah Al Ikhlas : Bismillah AR Rahnan AR RahimSay He is Allah(God)The One and Only Allah,the Eternal,Absolute;He begetteth not,Nor is He begotten;And there is none Like unto Him


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 09 December 2008 at 7:09am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
This has been given great study by theologians from the Vatican.  Here is one brief response:
 
This passage of Mark 16:9-20 is sometimes called "The Longer Ending". This designation is in comparison to the shorter ending found in some less important manuscripts.

Citations from the early Church Fathers indicate that this passage was composed in the first century. The vocabulary and style of the passage, however, indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark.


 If John Mark wasn't the one who wrote Mark 16:9-20, then who did? And how can you prove the ownership of the other person?Was he appointed or inspired by GOD Almighty?  If yes, then who is that man?

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The issue, however, is not really whether or not Mark wrote the passage or if it was added later. The only real issue is whether is belongs in the canon of inspired Sacred Scripture.

Tradition has always considered this passage as Scripture,but if there were any doubts the Council of Trent officially and infallibly declared this passage to be part of the canon of Mark.


 Support your claim by evidence.

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The passage certainly is a true statement. The footnotes of the NAB remark: "It is, in essence a general resume of the material concerning the appearances of the risen Jesus, refelcting, in particular, traditions found in Luke 24 and John 20."

Bottomline: it looks like Mark did not write this passage of Mark 16:9-20, but nevertheless the Church has declared the passage to be Sacred Scripture.
 
Bro. Ignatius Mary
 
 
Kind Regards,
Patty


 Here is response to your response

 Topic:Corruption of Mark 16:9-20


 There was some dispute among textual critics in the 19th century as to whether 16:9-20, describing some disciples' encounters with the resurrected Jesus, were actually part of the original Gospel, or if they were added later. The oldest extant manuscripts do not contain these verses and the style differs from the rest of Mark, suggesting that they were a later addition. A few manuscripts even include a different ending after verse 8. By the 5th century, at least 4 different endings have been attested. (See Mark 16 for a more comprehensive treatment of this topic.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16

Mark 16 is the final chapter of the Gospel of Mark. There is much debate about the ending of Mark, and many textual problems—there are nine different endings known—but most of the debate focuses around the so-called ‘longer’ ending (16:9-20).

Possible Scenarios

* The original ending of Mark was lost, and somebody else at a very early date completed the gospel. C. H. Turner has suggested that the original version of the gospel may have been a codex and the last pages may have been lost. However, it seems unlikely that Christian use of the codex form stretched as far back as the proposed date for the writing of Mark, though there is evidence for its adoption in the second century;

* The author(s) of Mark intentionally ended the gospel at 16:8, and someone else at an early date completed the gospel;

* More than one edition of Mark’s Gospel was made, so some Christian communities would have possessed the longer ending edition, and others would have possessed the edition that stopped at 16:8. ( SAM- MEANING PEOPLE HAD DIFFERENT BIBLES)

* The original ending was inconvenient to the church, and it was replaced.

Verses 16:8-9 read as follows in the New Revised Standard Version:

(16:8) So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid. (16:9) Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from who he had cast out seven demons.

Note the way the narrative flow abruptly changes from "they were afraid" to "now after he rose". Also, Mary Magdalene, introduced at the beginning of the chapter (16:1), is re-introduced almost as though she had not already been mentioned.

The final sentence in v.8 is also regarded as strange by many scholars, because in the Greek text it finishes with the conjunction ?a? (gar, 'for'). It is contended by those who see 16:9-20 as originally Markan that ?a? literally means “because”, and this ending to v.8 is therefore not grammatically coherent (literally, it would read “they were afraid because”). However, this objection misunderstands the nature of the Greek language. Since Greek is an inflexive language as opposed to a syntactic language such as English, word order is not as important. (Compare Grammar in Greek language and Grammar in English language.) ?a? is never the first word of a sentence: there is no such rule that states it can never be the last word, though it is very rare for a book to end with ?a?.

Still, ?a? aside, the grammar of v.8 is still odd, as the verb f?ße?µa? (phobeomai, 'I fear') has no object. Gundry also mentions that only 10% of Mark’s ?a? clauses—6 out of 66—conclude pericopes (Mark: A Commentary on His Apology for the Cross, Chapters 9-16). As such, this statistic favours the view that, rather than concluding 16:1-8, v.8 begins a new pericope, the rest of which is now lost to us. Gundry therefore does not see v.8 as the intended ending; a resurrection narrative was either written, then lost, or planned but never actually written. Either way, the originality of vv.9-20 is denied by Gundry—and, indeed, the overwhelming majority of textual critics.

Mark 16:9-20 is in most of the undamaged Greek copies of the Gospel of Mark. A copy of a manuscript, however, is only as good as the text being copied, so all of the texts with 16:9-20 may simply be copies of the same non-Markan addition. The verses are absent in the oldest manuscripts of Mark, including the vitally important Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, which both conclude the gospel at 16:8.

However, Mark 16:9-20 is absent in other early church fathers (e.g. Clement of Alexandria, Origen). At any rate, all that can be concluded from this use of the longer ending is that, rightly or wrongly, Mark 16:9-20 had become part of Church tradition and scripture much like other apocryphal writings such as The Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache, neither of which are now considered canonical.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09674b.htm - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09674b.htm

 Some textual problems, however, still remain, e.g. whether Gerasenon or Gergesenon is to be read in v, 1, eporei or epoiei in vi, 20, and whether the difficult autou, attested by B, Aleph, A, L, or autes is to be read in vi, 20

the great textual problem of the Gospel concerns the genuineness of the last twelve verses. Three conclusions of the Gospel are known: the long conclusion, as in our Bibles, containing verses 9-20, the short one ending with verse 8 (ephoboumto gar), and an intermediate form which (with some slight variations) runs as follows: "And they immediately made known all that had been commanded to those about Peter. And after this, Jesus Himself appeared to them, and through them sent forth from East to West the holy and incorruptible proclamation of the eternal salvation." Now this third form may be dismissed at once. Four unical manuscripts, dating from the seventh to the ninth century, give it, indeed, after xvi, 9, but each of them also makes reference to the longer ending as an alternative (for particulars cf. Swete, op. cit., pp. cv-cvii). It stands also in the margin of the cursive Manuscript 274, in the margin of the Harclean Syriac and of two manuscripts of the Memphitic version; and in a few manuscripts of the Ethiopic it stands between verse 8 and the ordinary conclusion. Only one authority, the Old Latin k, gives it alone (in a very corrupt rendering), without any reference to the longer form. Such evidence, especially when compared with that for the other two endings, can have no weight, and in fact, no scholar regards this intermediate conclusion as having any titles to acceptance.

We may pass on, then, to consider how the case stands between the long conclusion and the short, i.e. between accepting xvi, 9-20, as a genuine portion of the original Gospel, or making the original end with xvi, 8. In favour of the short ending Eusebius ("Quaest. ad Marin.") is appealed to as saying that an apologist might get rid of any difficulty arising from a comparison of Matt. xxviii, 1, with Mark, xvi, 9, in regard to the hour of Christ's Resurrection, by pointing out that the passage in Mark beginning with verse 9 is not contained in all the manuscripts of the Gospel. The historian then goes on himself to say that in nearly all the manuscripts of Mark, at least, in the accurate ones (schedon en apasi tois antigraphois . . . ta goun akribe, the Gospel ends with xvi, 8. It is true, Eusebius gives a second reply which the apologist might make, and which supposes the genuineness of the disputed passage, and he says that this latter reply might be made by one "who did not dare to set aside anything whatever that was found in any way in the Gospel writing". But the whole passage shows clearly enough that Eusebius was inclined to reject everything after xvi, 8. It is commonly held, too, that he did not apply his canons to the disputed verses, thereby showing clearly that he did not regard them as a portion of the original text (see, however, Scriv., "Introd.", II, 1894, 339). St. Jerome also says in one place ("Ad. Hedib.") that the passage was wanting in nearly all Greek manuscripts (omnibus Grćcić libris poene hoc capitulum in fine non habentibus), but he quotes it elsewhere ("Comment. on Matt."; "Ad Hedib."), and, as we know, he incorporated it in the Vulgate. It is quite clear that the whole passage, where Jerome makes the statement about the disputed verses being absent from Greek manuscripts, is borrowed almost verbatim from Eusebius, and it may be doubted whether his statement really adds any independent weight to the statement of Eusebius. It seems most likely also that Victor of Antioch, the first commentator of the Second Gospel, regarded xvi, 8, as the conclusion. If we add to this that the Gospel ends with xvi, 8, in the two oldest Greek manuscripts, B and Aleph, in the Sin. Syriac and in a few Ethiopic manuscripts, and that the cursive Manuscript 22 and some Armenian manuscripts indicate doubt as to whether the true ending is at verse 8 or verse 20,

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark.html - http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark.html

The author of the Gospel of Mark does indeed seem to lack first-hand knowledge of the geography of Palestine. Randel Helms writes concerning Mark 11:1 (Who Wrote the Gospels?, p. 6): "Anyone approaching Jerusalem from Jericho would come first to Bethany and then Bethphage, not the reverse. This is one of several passages showing that Mark knew little about Palestine; we must assume, Dennis Nineham argues, that 'Mark did not know the relative positions of these two villages on the Jericho road' (1963, 294-295). Indeed, Mark knew so little about the area that he described Jesus going from Tyrian territory 'by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee through the territory of the Ten Towns' (Mark 7:31); this is similar to saying that one goes from London to Paris by way of Edinburgh and Rome. The simplist solution, says Nineham, is that 'the evangelist was not directly acquainted with Palestine' (40)."

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/mark/intro.htm - http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/mark/intro.htm

Other hands have attached additional endings after Mark 16:8; see the note on Mark 16:9-20.

All this information is enough to cast doubt upon the entire book of Mark. We don’t know for sure on who wrote Mark, we don’t where it was exactly written, we don’t know exactly when it was written. Finally the fact that there is such a controversy on the ending of Mark throws the whole book into   question just on this fact alone. The fact that additions have been made in the last chapter leaves us wondering what else has been added in Mark. 


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 09 December 2008 at 1:38pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
Matthew 4:3-11

This famous passage, about Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil, is not just a romantic story, nor is it just the devil trying to cause Jesus as a man to fall. In the passage Jesus says that He was God.

 Response to PattyaMainer

 The Bible says that God cannot be tempted (James 1:13) and yet Jesus is said to have been tempted by the Devil no less (Matthew 4:1). Doesn't this prove that Jesus is not God?

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.


 Jesus the "Son" of GOD

THE MEANING OF THE SON OF GOD

 Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son%5Fof%5FGod


In the Tanakh

In the Tanakh, the phrase "sons of god" has multiple meanings:

  • The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language - Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "The Sons of God", describes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels - angels , demigods or immensely powerful human beings. See Genesis 6:2-4. Many Bible scholars believe that this is a reference to pre-Biblical near-eastern mythology.
  • It is used to denote a human judge or ruler (Ps. lxxxii. 6, "children of the Most High"; in many passages "gods" and "judges" seem to be equations); and to the real or ideal king over Israel (II Sam. vii. 14, with reference to David and his dynasty; comp. Ps. lxxxix. 27, 28).
  • The phrases "sons of God" and "children of God" are applied to Israel as a people (comp. Ex. iv. 22 and Hos. xi. 1), the Jewish people, and also to all members of the human race.

In the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh - Tanakh the term does not connote any form of physical descent from, or essential unity with, God. The Hebrew idiom conveys an expression of godlikeness (see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Godliness&action=edit - In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism - Judaism the term "son of God" is rarely used in the sense of " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah - messiah ."

Taken from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=son+of+God - http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=son+of+God

 

son of God

One entry found for son of God.

<> < name="hdwd" value="son of God" ="">< name="listword" value="son of God" ="">< name="book" value="Dictionary" ="">

 

Main Entry: son of God
1 often capitalized S : a superhuman or divine being (as an angel)
2 capitalized S : http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/messiah+ - So note, the term son of God does not mean God. As you can see, Jews had already been using this term, and they never took it to mean God now did they?

Secondly, Jesus was sent to these very same Jews, so hence when Jesus called himself the son of God, he was defintly referring to the same definition the Jews had, which is that the son of God does not mean God, and that it just means someone special or someone in power.
 

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The devil persists in trying to get Jesus to do his bidding, and Jesus replied: “It is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (verse 7). He was referring to God as a Trinity (including Himself), not only to the Father, for Satan was trying to tempt (or test) Jesus on this earth. He distinctly says He was the Lord God in this verse. In verse 10 Jesus underlines His being God by saying “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”  This was a remarkable piece of verbal structure, for it does two things – it tells Satan that Jesus (as Man) could not worship a creature because only God is to be worshiped and, it tells him that he must only worship Him, Jesus Christ, for He is God.

There are many, many verses in the OT and NT which indicate that Jesus is God.  You have to read them with an open mind and without prejudice.  I wish you peace and understanding, Hasan.
 


 Patty Read Matthew 4:8-10 carefully

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' (Matthew 4:8-10)"

 
There are two logical problems with the trinity in these verses:

1-  Notice how satan told Jesus "if you will bow down and worship me."  It is crystal clear that satan knew Jesus as a Messenger from GOD Almighty, and not GOD Almighty Himself.  Otherwise, he wouldn't dare to tell his Creator that.

2-  Notice Jesus' response to satan: "Away from me satan! For it is written 'Worship the LORD your God, and serve Him only".   Jesus here was clearly directing satan to GOD Almighty; a being other than Jesus.   Jesus did not tell satan "worship me".


 


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 09 December 2008 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
Matthew 4:3-11

This famous passage, about Jesus in the desert being tempted by the devil, is not just a romantic story, nor is it just the devil trying to cause Jesus as a man to fall. In the passage Jesus says that He was God.

 Response to PattyaMainer

 The Bible says that God cannot be tempted (James 1:13) and yet Jesus is said to have been tempted by the Devil no less (Matthew 4:1). Doesn't this prove that Jesus is not God?
 
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.


 Jesus the "Son" of GOD

THE MEANING OF THE SON OF GOD

 Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_God - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son%5Fof%5FGod


In the Tanakh

In the Tanakh, the phrase "sons of god" has multiple meanings:

  • The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language - Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "The Sons of God", describes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels - angels , demigods or immensely powerful human beings. See Genesis 6:2-4. Many Bible scholars believe that this is a reference to pre-Biblical near-eastern mythology.
  • It is used to denote a human judge or ruler (Ps. lxxxii. 6, "children of the Most High"; in many passages "gods" and "judges" seem to be equations); and to the real or ideal king over Israel (II Sam. vii. 14, with reference to David and his dynasty; comp. Ps. lxxxix. 27, 28).
  • The phrases "sons of God" and "children of God" are applied to Israel as a people (comp. Ex. iv. 22 and Hos. xi. 1), the Jewish people, and also to all members of the human race.

In the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh - Tanakh the term does not connote any form of physical descent from, or essential unity with, God. The Hebrew idiom conveys an expression of godlikeness (see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Godliness&action=edit - In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism - Judaism the term "son of God" is rarely used in the sense of " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah - messiah ."

Taken from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=son+of+God - http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=son+of+God

 

son of God

One entry found for son of God.

<> < name="hdwd" value="son of God" ="">< name="listword" value="son of God" ="">< name="book" value="Dictionary" ="">

 

Main Entry: son of God
1 often capitalized S : a superhuman or divine being (as an angel)
2 capitalized S : http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/messiah+ - So note, the term son of God does not mean God. As you can see, Jews had already been using this term, and they never took it to mean God now did they?

Secondly, Jesus was sent to these very same Jews, so hence when Jesus called himself the son of God, he was defintly referring to the same definition the Jews had, which is that the son of God does not mean God, and that it just means someone special or someone in power.
 

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The devil persists in trying to get Jesus to do his bidding, and Jesus replied: “It is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” (verse 7). He was referring to God as a Trinity (including Himself), not only to the Father, for Satan was trying to tempt (or test) Jesus on this earth. He distinctly says He was the Lord God in this verse. In verse 10 Jesus underlines His being God by saying “Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.”  This was a remarkable piece of verbal structure, for it does two things – it tells Satan that Jesus (as Man) could not worship a creature because only God is to be worshiped and, it tells him that he must only worship Him, Jesus Christ, for He is God.

There are many, many verses in the OT and NT which indicate that Jesus is God.  You have to read them with an open mind and without prejudice.  I wish you peace and understanding, Hasan.
 


 Patty Read Matthew 4:8-10 carefully

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' (Matthew 4:8-10)"

 
There are two logical problems with the trinity in these verses:

1-  Notice how satan told Jesus "if you will bow down and worship me."  It is crystal clear that satan knew Jesus as a Messenger from GOD Almighty, and not GOD Almighty Himself.  Otherwise, he wouldn't dare to tell his Creator that.

2-  Notice Jesus' response to satan: "Away from me satan! For it is written 'Worship the LORD your God, and serve Him only".   Jesus here was clearly directing satan to GOD Almighty; a being other than Jesus.   Jesus did not tell satan "worship me".


 
 
Ali, you are once again twisting the meaning which is right in front of you. Jesus was confronted by Satan in the desert.  The Devil "ATTEMPTED" to tempt Jesus.  He did NOT succeed!Confused  Jesus told him in no uncertain, or twisted words, "You shall NOT tempt the Lord your God."  Of course he meant himself!!  Uh, remember, that's who Satan was TRYING to tempt.
 
Jesus "stuck to his guns" and rebuffed the devil each time he tried another tactic, such as offering him great wealth, kingdoms, etc.  Jesus was God, the devil is smart, not st**id, and he knew exactly who he was dealing with here, and it was not a messanger or a prophet....it was God Himself.  That is why Jesus kept telling Satan to "get thee behind me."  What on earth do you mean, "he (the devil) wouldn't dare try to tempt God?"  Of course he would....that's his whole plan for all eternity. 
 
Read my original post, carefully Ali:
 
"
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.
"
 
As you can see, the Devil was not questioning IF he was God, he already knew he was God....he was trying to cause Jesus to do his bidding because IF Jesus did, he would have lost his power.  Jesus, of course, being God in the 2nd person, did NOT fall for it responded in two ways, by telling him not to tempt HIM/GOD, and to "get lost."  That is exactly what these verses of the Bible state....very clearly and specifically.
 
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 December 2008 at 6:26pm
Patty,
its interesting that when I quoted this verse in which Jesus says : " I am returning to my God and your God" or " that father is greater than I" you change your position there by saying because Jesus was in human form. Now when the devil is talking to him, you wants us to not take Jesus as the man form, rather as God form.
And by the way, it is ridiculous to assume that the devil, created by God will try to trick and ask God " if you do this (God) I will give you this and that. That is laughable. My 3rd, 5th and 7th grader all will be laughing when I tell them this later tonight.
 
God is not a joke Patty.  Truth is not always easy to come, yet its the only choice. And you don't have to butter it up, its that simple and flat. None of the God's prophets according to the records were diplomatic when it came to belief in one God. They were as clear and blunt as can be. They knew and were told to make things clear and warn of the consequences. There is not other way.
Only thing I showed you is the truth of the matter and the argument with proof from your trusted source.
You will be asked what and why you believed, and I will be asked the same. We will be justly dealt! word for word, act for act by the Almighty, that's how I believe.
 
By the way we don't need an intercessor to connect us to the Almighty. God is near to you and I than them.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 10 December 2008 at 7:37pm
Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
its interesting that when I quoted this verse in which Jesus says : " I am returning to my God and your God" or " that father is greater than I" you change your position there by saying because Jesus was in human form. Now when the devil is talking to him, you wants us to not take Jesus as the man form, rather as God form.
And by the way, it is ridiculous to assume that the devil, created by God will try to trick and ask God " if you do this (God) I will give you this and that. That is laughable. My 3rd, 5th and 7th grader all will be laughing when I tell them this later tonight.
 
God is not a joke Patty.  Truth is not always easy to come, yet its the only choice. And you don't have to butter it up, its that simple and flat. None of the God's prophets according to the records were diplomatic when it came to belief in one God. They were as clear and blunt as can be. They knew and were told to make things clear and warn of the consequences. There is not other way.
Only thing I showed you is the truth of the matter and the argument with proof from your trusted source.
You will be asked what and why you believed, and I will be asked the same. We will be justly dealt! word for word, act for act by the Almighty, that's how I believe.
 
By the way we don't need an intercessor to connect us to the Almighty. God is near to you and I than them.
Hasan
 
I cannot explain the Trinity to you, Hasan.  It is three separate entities, persons, who come together to form ONE God.  Christians do NOT believe in multiple Gods.  What really bothers me is your statement that you will have children laughing at MY beliefs and religion.  I would never stoop to do such a thing to any child.  Yes, God is very near to me.  You are right on that one.  As I mentioned to you previously, we follow different paths.  Peace to you on your journey.  I spoke with two priests who told me it is impossible to explain the Trinity to Muslims for many reasons.  It is a difficult concept to be sure and takes great faith.  It is there in the Bible (not the word trinity, but the concept).  This is my last post to you because it is futile to even attempt to explain my beliefs, but mainly because you have become somewhat rude in your posts to me, and especially because of your comments regarding disrespecting my religion to the point of having young children laugh.  I would never resort to disrespecting any religion to a child.  What a shame you feel that is great fun.
 
 


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 11 December 2008 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
Ali, you are once again twisting the meaning which is right in front of you. Jesus was confronted by Satan in the desert.  The Devil "ATTEMPTED" to tempt Jesus.  He did NOT succeed!Confused


 Let's see who is twisting the meaning?

 Satan did tempt Jesus to climb up the mountain.Here are some verses whic
h support my claim:

"At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.  (Mark 1:12-13)"

"Jesus,full of the Holy Spirit,returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.  (Luke 4:1-2)"

Jesus SUFFERED when he was tempted by satan:

 Hebrews 2
17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

 
How is Jesus supposed to be the Creator of the Universe when he was tempted and controlled by satan for 40 days, while James 1:13 verse says clearly that GOD Almighty can not be tempted by satan?

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Jesus told him in no uncertain, or twisted words, "You shall NOT tempt the Lord your God."  Of course he meant himself!!  Uh, remember, that's who Satan was TRYING to tempt.


 Patty read the Matthew 4:7 in its CONTEXT.Let me present the verse in its context:

 Matthew 4:5-7

 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

 6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

 So said Jesus when satan urged him to cast himself down from the pinnacle of the Temple because God's angels would hold him up according to a promise of God.We are not to put God to the test.( http://books.google.com.pk/books?id=FozDQzGHxmsC&pg=PA96&dq=Biblical+commentary+of+Matthew+4:7+7+Jesus+said+unto+him,+It+is+written+again,+Thou+shalt+not+tempt+the+Lord+thy+God.&lr= - Source )

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Jesus "stuck to his guns" and rebuffed the devil each time he tried another tactic, such as offering him great wealth, kingdoms, etc.  Jesus was God, the devil is smart, not st**id, and he knew exactly who he was dealing with here, and it was not a messanger or a prophet....it was God Himself.  That is why Jesus kept telling Satan to "get thee behind me."  What on earth do you mean, "he (the devil) wouldn't dare try to tempt God?"  Of course he would....that's his whole plan for all eternity. 
 
Read my original post, carefully Ali:
 
"
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.
"
 
As you can see, the Devil was not questioning IF he was God, he already knew he was God....he was trying to cause Jesus to do his bidding because IF Jesus did, he would have lost his power.  Jesus, of course, being God in the 2nd person, did NOT fall for it responded in two ways, by telling him not to tempt HIM/GOD, and to "get lost."  That is exactly what these verses of the Bible state....very clearly and specifically.
 
Patty


 let us read the verses of Satan tempting Jesus. Let us read from Matthew 4 verse 8 to 10:

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve

Now very interesting points to read from those verses, for one, Satan tried to tempt Jesus to worship him! Satan tells Jesus he will give him everything, if Jesus bows down and worships him, Jesus of course denies him, and is not tempted and tells Satan it is written that thou shalt worship the lord thy God.

Main points to look over, which I find outrageous and a blasphemy:

1- Satan tries to tempt Jesus by giving him the kingdoms of the world, meaning giving him power and authority.

2- Satan tells Jesus to worship him if he wants to get the kingdoms of heaven.

Now with those 2 points we have, we must say, if Jesus indeed was God, how could Satan even try to command Jesus to worship him! How could Satan even have tried to offer Jesus the kingdoms of the earth! Everything belongs to God, the whole earth belongs to God, and so does every other planet. The whole universe belongs to God! How could Satan even try such an act if Jesus was God? The reason why Satan tried to tempt Jesus to worship him is because Jesus is not God. Because Satan would never ever make such a command, and secondly Satan would never make an offer of giving Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, because he would already know all things belong to God!

Those main 2 points prove without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is not God, but it shows he is no more than a prophet, because Satan would try to tempt great prophets in that way, to try and promise them the world, if they worship him instead of God. That is the ultimate success for Satan, to make a great prophet such as Jesus to leave God and to worship him. Also the fact that Satan offers Jesus all the kingdoms is further proof that he is not God because a mere man, a prophet, would always be tempted greatly if he could have all the kingdoms of this planet.

What use would it be to offer God all the kingdoms of the earth when he owns them all anyway! It makes no sense.



Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 11 December 2008 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
Ali, you are once again twisting the meaning which is right in front of you. Jesus was confronted by Satan in the desert.  The Devil "ATTEMPTED" to tempt Jesus.  He did NOT succeed!Confused


 Let's see who is twisting the meaning?

 Satan did tempt Jesus to climb up the mountain.Here are some verses whic
h support my claim:

"At once the Spirit sent him out into the desert, and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.  (Mark 1:12-13)"

"Jesus,full of the Holy Spirit,returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.  (Luke 4:1-2)"

Jesus SUFFERED when he was tempted by satan:

 Hebrews 2
17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

 
How is Jesus supposed to be the Creator of the Universe when he was tempted and controlled by satan for 40 days, while James 1:13 verse says clearly that GOD Almighty can not be tempted by satan?

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Jesus told him in no uncertain, or twisted words, "You shall NOT tempt the Lord your God."  Of course he meant himself!!  Uh, remember, that's who Satan was TRYING to tempt.

 Patty read the Matthew 4:7 in its CONTEXT.Let me present the verse in its context:

 Matthew 4:5-7

 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

 6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

 So said Jesus when satan urged him to cast himself down from the pinnacle of the Temple because God's angels would hold him up according to a promise of God.We are not to put God to the test.( http://books.google.com.pk/books?id=FozDQzGHxmsC&pg=PA96&dq=Biblical+commentary+of+Matthew+4:7+7+Jesus+said+unto+him,+It+is+written+again,+Thou+shalt+not+tempt+the+Lord+thy+God.&lr= - Source )

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Jesus "stuck to his guns" and rebuffed the devil each time he tried another tactic, such as offering him great wealth, kingdoms, etc.  Jesus was God, the devil is smart, not st**id, and he knew exactly who he was dealing with here, and it was not a messanger or a prophet....it was God Himself.  That is why Jesus kept telling Satan to "get thee behind me."  What on earth do you mean, "he (the devil) wouldn't dare try to tempt God?"  Of course he would....that's his whole plan for all eternity. 
 
Read my original post, carefully Ali:
 
"
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

The question asked by the devil in verse 3 is rhetorical He knew that Jesus was God and he was not questioning if He was God. Rather, he was testing Him AS God! “If thou be the Son of God...” then do this, or that to prove it (knowing that if Jesus did what he asked, then He would have lost His authority). The term ‘Son of God’ means far more than just ‘son’, because the Son IS God.
"
 
As you can see, the Devil was not questioning IF he was God, he already knew he was God....he was trying to cause Jesus to do his bidding because IF Jesus did, he would have lost his power.  Jesus, of course, being God in the 2nd person, did NOT fall for it responded in two ways, by telling him not to tempt HIM/GOD, and to "get lost."  That is exactly what these verses of the Bible state....very clearly and specifically.
 
Patty


 let us read the verses of Satan tempting Jesus. Let us read from Matthew 4 verse 8 to 10:

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve

Now very interesting points to read from those verses, for one, Satan tried to tempt Jesus to worship him! Satan tells Jesus he will give him everything, if Jesus bows down and worships him, Jesus of course denies him, and is not tempted and tells Satan it is written that thou shalt worship the lord thy God.

<!--[if !supEmptyParas]--> Main points to look over, which I find outrageous and a blasphemy:

<!--[if !supEmptyParas]--> 1- Satan tries to tempt Jesus by giving him the kingdoms of the world, meaning giving him power and authority.

<!--[if !supEmptyParas]--> 2- Satan tells Jesus to worship him if he wants to get the kingdoms of heaven.

<!--[if !supEmptyParas]--> Now with those 2 points we have, we must say, if Jesus indeed was God, how could Satan even try to command Jesus to worship him! How could Satan even have tried to offer Jesus the kingdoms of the earth! Everything belongs to God, the whole earth belongs to God, and so does every other planet. The whole universe belongs to God! How could Satan even try such an act if Jesus was God? The reason why Satan tried to tempt Jesus to worship him is because Jesus is not God. Because Satan would never ever make such a command, and secondly Satan would never make an offer of giving Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, because he would already know all things belong to God!

<!--[if !supEmptyParas]--> Those main 2 points prove without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is not God, but it shows he is no more than a prophet, because Satan would try to tempt great prophets in that way, to try and promise them the world, if they worship him instead of God. That is the ultimate success for Satan, to make a great prophet such as Jesus to leave God and to worship him. Also the fact that Satan offers Jesus all the kingdoms is further proof that he is not God because a mere man, a prophet, would always be tempted greatly if he could have all the kingdoms of this planet.

<!--[if !supEmptyParas]--> What use would it be to offer God all the kingdoms of the earth when he owns them all anyway! It makes no sense.

 
Ali,
With all due respect, I will not respond to anymore "interrogations" regarding the Holy Trinity.  Muslims do not believe in it....most Protestants and ALL Catholics do.
 
In summary to all the empty, repetitive words above......Satan ATTEMPTED to tempt Jesus because he was in his human form.  Jesus was just like us in every single way, except he was without sin and he was divine in nature.  It was because Jesus had assumed his human form that Satan TRIED (unsuccessfully) to bribe, cajole, tempt, and corrupt Jesus Christ the Son of God, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity My Lord and My God...Amen!
 
Blessings,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 December 2008 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
its interesting that when I quoted this verse in which Jesus says : " I am returning to my God and your God" or " that father is greater than I" you change your position there by saying because Jesus was in human form. Now when the devil is talking to him, you wants us to not take Jesus as the man form, rather as God form.
And by the way, it is ridiculous to assume that the devil, created by God will try to trick and ask God " if you do this (God) I will give you this and that. That is laughable. My 3rd, 5th and 7th grader all will be laughing when I tell them this later tonight.
 
God is not a joke Patty.  Truth is not always easy to come, yet its the only choice. And you don't have to butter it up, its that simple and flat. None of the God's prophets according to the records were diplomatic when it came to belief in one God. They were as clear and blunt as can be. They knew and were told to make things clear and warn of the consequences. There is not other way.
Only thing I showed you is the truth of the matter and the argument with proof from your trusted source.
You will be asked what and why you believed, and I will be asked the same. We will be justly dealt! word for word, act for act by the Almighty, that's how I believe.
 
By the way we don't need an intercessor to connect us to the Almighty. God is near to you and I than them.
Hasan
 
I cannot explain the Trinity to you, Hasan.  It is three separate entities, persons, who come together to form ONE God.  Christians do NOT believe in multiple Gods.  What really bothers me is your statement that you will have children laughing at MY beliefs and religion.  I would never stoop to do such a thing to any child.  Yes, God is very near to me.  You are right on that one.  As I mentioned to you previously, we follow different paths.  Peace to you on your journey.  I spoke with two priests who told me it is impossible to explain the Trinity to Muslims for many reasons.  It is a difficult concept to be sure and takes great faith.  It is there in the Bible (not the word trinity, but the concept).  This is my last post to you because it is futile to even attempt to explain my beliefs, but mainly because you have become somewhat rude in your posts to me, and especially because of your comments regarding disrespecting my religion to the point of having young children laugh.  I would never resort to disrespecting any religion to a child.  What a shame you feel that is great fun.
 
 
 
Patty,
I am sorry that it bothered you what I have said. And let me tell you, my kids 7,9, and almost 12 are very respective to all regardless. They are also very advanced kids in term of learning. These are kids that start reading at age 3 1/2- 4. They are homeschooled. My 7 year old is a 3rd grader. They know about major world beliefs since they were 3-4 years old. Apart from what they believe, they can tell you what a Hindu worships, a Catholic, a Christian or a Jew. And they also know what and who is God. They also know its not a joke talking about God.
As I went home that day. Before our Isha Salath, which we do together I told them that today I have a question for them and I asked them this question: "According to a Catholic lady, a friend of mine, the Devil, a creation of God, is offering to God, great rewards for serving and worshipping him, how does that sounds to you?" 
You know they did not laugh, and I am sorry if said they would, very seriously and without blinking they said, "that's silly" my oldest one further added that God has command over all, including the Devil who depends on God. How can he dare to do that, its silly, she said seriously.
So true, devil can never dare to trick, or lower God into some reward for serving him. God serving devil, the one created by God, no my dear you are gravely mistaken and anyone who says so.
Now if you say that Devil tried to lower Moses or Jesus or any of God's prophets and offer some reward for that, I can understand that and it would not be untrue. Many of us fight with the devil on a second to second basis thes days due to abundance of his council.
But regardless of being in any religious context, it is obsurd to claim that a creation will try to offer something, trick and overcome its creator.  And we are talking about 'The CREATOR.'
 
Wish you the Best.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 11 December 2008 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
its interesting that when I quoted this verse in which Jesus says : " I am returning to my God and your God" or " that father is greater than I" you change your position there by saying because Jesus was in human form. Now when the devil is talking to him, you wants us to not take Jesus as the man form, rather as God form.
And by the way, it is ridiculous to assume that the devil, created by God will try to trick and ask God " if you do this (God) I will give you this and that. That is laughable. My 3rd, 5th and 7th grader all will be laughing when I tell them this later tonight.
 
God is not a joke Patty.  Truth is not always easy to come, yet its the only choice. And you don't have to butter it up, its that simple and flat. None of the God's prophets according to the records were diplomatic when it came to belief in one God. They were as clear and blunt as can be. They knew and were told to make things clear and warn of the consequences. There is not other way.
Only thing I showed you is the truth of the matter and the argument with proof from your trusted source.
You will be asked what and why you believed, and I will be asked the same. We will be justly dealt! word for word, act for act by the Almighty, that's how I believe.
 
By the way we don't need an intercessor to connect us to the Almighty. God is near to you and I than them.
Hasan
 
I cannot explain the Trinity to you, Hasan.  It is three separate entities, persons, who come together to form ONE God.  Christians do NOT believe in multiple Gods.  What really bothers me is your statement that you will have children laughing at MY beliefs and religion.  I would never stoop to do such a thing to any child.  Yes, God is very near to me.  You are right on that one.  As I mentioned to you previously, we follow different paths.  Peace to you on your journey.  I spoke with two priests who told me it is impossible to explain the Trinity to Muslims for many reasons.  It is a difficult concept to be sure and takes great faith.  It is there in the Bible (not the word trinity, but the concept).  This is my last post to you because it is futile to even attempt to explain my beliefs, but mainly because you have become somewhat rude in your posts to me, and especially because of your comments regarding disrespecting my religion to the point of having young children laugh.  I would never resort to disrespecting any religion to a child.  What a shame you feel that is great fun.
 
 
 
Patty,
I am sorry that it bothered you what I have said. And let me tell you, my kids 7,9, and almost 12 are very respective to all regardless. They are also very advanced kids in term of learning. These are kids that start reading at age 3 1/2- 4. They are homeschooled. My 7 year old is a 3rd grader. They know about major world beliefs since they were 3-4 years old. Apart from what they believe, they can tell you what a Hindu worships, a Catholic, a Christian or a Jew. And they also know what and who is God. They also know its not a joke talking about God.
As I went home that day. Before our Isha Salath, which we do together I told them that today I have a question for them and I asked them this question: "According to a Catholic lady, a friend of mine, the Devil, a creation of God, is offering to God, great rewards for serving and worshipping him, how does that sounds to you?" 
You know they did not laugh, and I am sorry if said they would, very seriously and without blinking they said, "that's silly" my oldest one further added that God has command over all, including the Devil who depends on God. How can he dare to do that, its silly, she said seriously.
So true, devil can never dare to trick, or lower God into some reward for serving him. God serving devil, the one created by God, no my dear you are gravely mistaken and anyone who says so.
Now if you say that Devil tried to lower Moses or Jesus or any of God's prophets and offer some reward for that, I can understand that and it would not be untrue. Many of us fight with the devil on a second to second basis thes days due to abundance of his council.
But regardless of being in any religious context, it is obsurd to claim that a creation will try to offer something, trick and overcome its creator.  And we are talking about 'The CREATOR.'
 
Wish you the Best.
Hasan
 

Every Muslim knows from childhood that Christians believe in three Gods. He is constantly warned about committing this "sin of sins". The fact that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit sounds like blasphemy to a Muslim and is synonymous with breaking the first commandment: "You shall not have any other gods before me." Anyone who confesses that there are one or two god-like persons beside Allah commits an unforgivable sin. This coincides with the sin against the Holy Spirit (Sura al-Nisa 4:48 and 116).

A Muslim does not know the reality of the triune God, nor does he want to know it. He rejects it decidedly. A Muslim feels repelled when Christians try to explain the Trinity to him. "Three cannot be one, and one is not three," is their stereotyped answer. Allah in Islam does not need a helper, mediator or partner. He alone is great. No one is like Him.

A divine triumvirate could, in the eyes of a Muslim, bring the possibility of an insurrection of one God against the other. Jealousy, ambition, hate and criticism would be unavoidable. At the head of a Muslim country there is usually just one ruler. Rivals are executed. In the same way Allah can only be one.

The mystery that our God is love remains hidden to Muslims. The Father loved the Son before all time. He is not an egoist who only loves Himself. Through Him, the "Word," He created the universe. After Jesus' substitutionary death of reconciliation, the Father bestowed all power in heaven and on earth into the hands of the risen conqueror. The Holy Spirit today is completing the work of the Son in His church. Muslims see none of this. They also do not understand that the Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself, but the Son, and the Son continually honours the Father, who has set the Victor over sin, death and hell at His right hand. Such spiritual relationships in the Holy Trinity are completely foreign to a Muslim. He does not want to understand the words of Jesus: "I and the Father are one", or "the Father is in Me and I in Him." Love, humility and self-denial, in Islam, do not emerge as roots of every spiritual authority. Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable.

According to Islamic faith, Allah is the unquestioned ruler and despot who reigns arbitrarily. No one knows why he leads some to paradise, or why hell is the destiny of others. A Muslim prostrates himself on the ground before Allah like a slave before his master, who does not know whether he will be apportioned life or death, grace or damnation. He longs for mercy and his honest intent to worship the only true God earnestly brings no assurance of everlasting life.
 
God's Peace Always,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
Ali,
With all due respect, I will not respond to anymore "interrogations" regarding the Holy Trinity.  Muslims do not believe in it....most Protestants and ALL Catholics do.
 
In summary to all the empty, repetitive words above......Satan ATTEMPTED to tempt Jesus


Your claim contradicts with Mark 1:12-13,Luke 4:1-2,Hebrew 217-18.

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

because he was in his human form.  Jesus was just like us in every single way, except he was without sinand he was divine in nature.


 Can you bring me the verse where Jesus claims to have dual natures i.e. fully man and fully God?

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

It was because Jesus had assumed his human form that Satan TRIED (unsuccessfully) to bribe, cajole, tempt, and corrupt Jesus Christ the Son of God, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity My Lord and My God...Amen!
 
Blessings,
Patty


 You should backup your claims with the help of Biblical verses.


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 13 December 2008 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
Ali,
With all due respect, I will not respond to anymore "interrogations" regarding the Holy Trinity.  Muslims do not believe in it....most Protestants and ALL Catholics do.
 
In summary to all the empty, repetitive words above......Satan ATTEMPTED to tempt Jesus


Your claim contradicts with Mark 1:12-13,Luke 4:1-2,Hebrew 217-18.

No, Ali, my claim does not contradict those verses. Satan attempted to cause Jesus to follow him, or to fall from grace, but he (Obviously) did not succeed.



Originally posted by PattyaMainer

because he was in his human form.  Jesus was just like us in every single way, except he was without sinand he was divine in nature.


 Can you bring me the verse where Jesus claims to have dual natures i.e. fully man and fully God?

Yes, but you'll more than likely refuse to believe it, or twist it in some manner.  Here it is:

John 1:1-18 (New King James Version)

John 1

The Eternal Word
 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26044a - a ] it.
John’s Witness: The True Light
   
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26048b - b ]
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26050c - c ] and His own[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26050d - d ] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Becomes Flesh
   
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26055e - e ] of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26057f - f ] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

It was because Jesus had assumed his human form that Satan TRIED (unsuccessfully) to bribe, cajole, tempt, and corrupt Jesus Christ the Son of God, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity My Lord and My God...Amen!
 
Blessings,
Patty


 You should backup your claims with the help of Biblical verses.
 
I just did, as I have since the beginning of this topic.
 
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 10:00am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

No, Ali, my claim does not contradict those verses. Satan attempted to cause Jesus to follow him, or to fall from grace, but he (Obviously) did not succeed.

  From where you get the idea that satan actually 'attempted' to temp Jesus?You should backup your claim with the help of Biblical verses.

 Further no where in Bible the word 'attempted' is written.It is your own insertion.

 Can you show me a single verse which says that "Satan attempted to tempt Jesus..."

  And suppose you are succeeded to show me a verse then it contradicts with Mark 1:12-13,Luke 4:1-2,Hebrew 2:17-18

 It is another case you donot admit it.

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Yes, but you'll more than likely refuse to believe it, or twist it in some manner.  Here it is:

John 1:1-18 (New King James Version)

John 1

The Eternal Word
 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26044a - John’s Witness: The True Light   
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26048b - 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26050c - - d ] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Becomes Flesh
   
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26055e - 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26057f -   Now my first question to you regarding John 1:1 is this, is this Jesus speaking? The answer is no, this is NOT Jesus speaking.This is supposedly the disciple John writing this here not Jesus! So what we have is an interpretation of what one man thought! Why cant you get us Jesus saying in the beginning the word was with God and the word was God, why didn’t Jesus ever say this?

 So you now want us to believe Jesus is God because of what a man said? A man’s interpretation!
The Bible itself testifies that the disciples often miss-understood Jesus and didn’t understand him!

 So John 1:1 does not prove anything, it is not Jesus speaking.






Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

No, Ali, my claim does not contradict those verses. Satan attempted to cause Jesus to follow him, or to fall from grace, but he (Obviously) did not succeed.

  From where you get the idea that satan actually 'attempted' to temp Jesus?You should backup your claim with the help of Biblical verses.

 Further no where in Bible the word 'attempted' is written.It is your own insertion.

 Can you show me a single verse which says that "Satan attempted to tempt Jesus..."

  And suppose you are succeeded to show me a verse then it contradicts with Mark 1:12-13,Luke 4:1-2,Hebrew 2:17-18

 It is another case you donot admit it.

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Yes, but you'll more than likely refuse to believe it, or twist it in some manner.  Here it is:

John 1:1-18 (New King James Version)

John 1

The Eternal Word
 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26044a - a ] it.
John’s Witness: The True Light
   
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26048b - b ]
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26050c - c ] and His own[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26050d - d ] did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Becomes Flesh
   
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”
16 And[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26055e - e ] of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:1-18;&version=50;#fen-NKJV-26057f - f ] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

 
 I think you didnot understand what i am asking from you.I said '...Can you bring me the verse where Jesus claims to have dual natures i.e. fully man and fully God...?'

  Now my first question to you regarding John 1:1 is this, is this Jesus speaking? The answer is no, this is NOT Jesus speaking.This is supposedly the disciple John writing this here not Jesus! So what we have is an interpretation of what one man thought! Why cant you get us Jesus saying in the beginning the word was with God and the word was God, why didn’t Jesus ever say this?

 So you now want us to believe Jesus is God because of what a man said? A man’s interpretation!
The Bible itself testifies that the disciples often miss-understood Jesus and didn’t understand him!

 So John 1:1 does not prove anything, it is not Jesus speaking.




 
Oh yea of little faith, Ali!  St. John was a prophet of God....what he said in the Gospel of John were the inspired words given to John to say in this Gospel.  Are you saying God told John to say false words?? 
 
I DID show you in the other topic where Jesus himself told St. Thomas that "since you touched the nail prints in my hands you believe (that I am the Christ)....but blessed are those who have NOT felt the nail prints in my hands yet still believe (That I am the Christ).  Yes, Ali, Jesus Christ Himself said these words in the Gospel.
 
Peace and Wisdom,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 4:04pm



from patty:
 
Oh yea of little faith, Ali!  St. John was a prophet of God....what he said in the Gospel of John were the inspired words given to John to say in this Gospel.  Are you saying God told John to say false words??
 
 just maybe JOHN may have told us false words .{ or at least the person it comes from }.
 
I DID show you in the other topic where Jesus himself told St. Thomas that "since you touched the nail prints in my hands you believe (that I am the Christ)....but blessed are those who have NOT felt the nail prints in my hands yet still believe (That I am the Christ). 
 
this line was also used by church  to legitamize their demand on people for blind faith to them and the word they keep. no freewill no freedom of thought if so you were a haratic. burnt,drowned ,starved death and tortured to clean you of your sin though the suffering of christ. { freaks! }. jesus also said YOU'LL TELL BY THIER FRUITS IF THEY COME FROM ME! 
 
 
 
 Yes, Ali, Jesus Christ Himself said these words in the Gospel.
 
no my friend JOHN said jesus said these words. also i thing it strange that "THE BELOVED APOSLE " remains such a seacret but then signs his name to the front page!
 
 Peace and Wisdom,
Patty
[/QUOTE] peace to you today,
  i've read  your post noticed a few things.
i'm sorry to ask questions , { i've been told i lack faith for doing so before and not accepting without question { blindly } the word from the pulpit.} but i could not resist.
leland


-------------
love for all conquers all


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by Nazarene




from patty:
 
Oh yea of little faith, Ali!  St. John was a prophet of God....what he said in the Gospel of John were the inspired words given to John to say in this Gospel.  Are you saying God told John to say false words??
 
 just maybe JOHN may have told us false words .{ or at least the person it comes from }.
 
I DID show you in the other topic where Jesus himself told St. Thomas that "since you touched the nail prints in my hands you believe (that I am the Christ)....but blessed are those who have NOT felt the nail prints in my hands yet still believe (That I am the Christ). 
 
this line was also used by church  to legitamize their demand on people for blind faith to them and the word they keep. no freewill no freedom of thought if so you were a haratic. burnt,drowned ,starved death and tortured to clean you of your sin though the suffering of christ. { freaks! }. jesus also said YOU'LL TELL FRUITS IF THEY COME FROM ME! 
 
 
 
 Yes, Ali, Jesus Christ Himself said these words in the Gospel.
 
no my friend JOHN said jesus said these words. also i thing it strange that "THE BELOVED APOSLE " remains such a seacret but then signs his name to the front page!
 
 Peace and Wisdom,
Patty
peace to you today,
  i've read  your post noticed a few things.
i'm sorry to ask questions , { i've been told i lack faith for doing so before and not accepting without question { blindly } the word from the pulpit.} but i could not resist.
leland
[/QUOTE]
 
Leland,
 
You are quite obviously a rabid anti-Catholic.  I feel sorry for your tremendous lack of knowledge and misinformation regarding my Church.  Your post is not worthy of a response as it is terribly rude and disrespectful.  I may not agree with the Islamic religion, but I would never stoop to disrespecting those who do, nor would I ever intentionally be rude.  Your post is disgraceful to many Protestants and Catholics alike who truly are doing their best to serve our Lord, Jesus Christ.  I have several relatives who are Protestant, but they certainly do not speak or misbehave as you just did.
 
May our Loving God grant you wisdom,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 14 December 2008 at 7:07pm
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by thomasd

Christians do not worship icons or other man-made portrayals of God, saints, etc. Rather they are meant as a visual reminder of God's glory to focus our attention on him, in much the same way the Psalms or Proverbs do so through written word. Your connection between Jesus and icons is an interesting one, but one I believe to be mistaken. While stained glass, sculptures and paintings were created by human hands, and therefore imperfect, Jesus was created by God and thus the only perfect human being to ever have existed. We believe quite literally the Jesus is God incarnate--in a human body, and that he became so in order to form a bridge between Himself and imperfect humanity....a covenant between Himself and a broken world, so that our brokenness can be forgiven and we can spend an eternity in his presence rather than be condemned to an eternity apart from him.
 
That is not quite right as Cahtloics pray to mary and the saints, that is an act of worship!
 
You are sadly and horribly misinformed about Roman Catholics, Robin. I am really disgusted by the lies you spread due to your ignorance.  I am a devout Roman Catholic who loves God with all my heart and soul.  I honor the saints and Mary, whom God chose to be the mother of Jesus.  We do NOT pray to her or the saints.....we "ask" them to intercede to the Father/God for us.  It is no more than if I would ask a friend to pray for me if I were sick.  The saints are close to God as they are in Heaven, most of them were martyrs....they DIED for their faith.  We do have many beautiful photographs of Jesus Christ, Mary, St. Joseph,  as reminders of the holy people.  We have the cross as a reminder of the death Jesus endured for our salvation.  You are woefully mistaken about Catholics and other Protestant denominations. 
 
I do not agree with your beliefs, but I respect your right to practice it and to live your life in accordance with what you have been taught is right.    But for some reason, JW's cannot stand to allow people to live and practice their own religion according to their conscience and beliefs. My church goes back 2000 years, how far does yours go back?  I have read MUCH about Jehovah Witness religion.  It is NOT Christian, and it is very much more like a cult.  Nonetheless, if that's what you believe you have every right to believe it.....but I truly feel sorry for you, and I feel extremely sorry for those who have died because of your misconception about blood transfusions!!!  So please learn the truth before you make such inaccurate and outlandish statements about the Roman Catholic Church, which was established by Jesus himself over 2,000 years ago.
 
Btw, the Ave Maria (Hail Mary) comes from the Gospel of Luke:
 
The angel appeared to Mary and said, "Hail Mary, full of grace...the Lord is with you.  BLESSED are you among women, and blessed the fruit of your womb, JESUS."


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 3:45am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
Oh yea of little faith, Ali!  St. John was a prophet of God....what he said in the Gospel of John were the inspired words given to John to say in this Gospel.  Are you saying God told John to say false words??


 If John 1:1 is a words of Christ then why RED LETTER BIBLE doesnot mention it in red colors?

 I am not arguing whether John was a prophet of God or not?Even i can show you that Gospel of John is not written by him.Even i can show you that John 1:1 doesnot prove any divinity of christ.

 But my point is John 1:1 is not saying of christ and we all know this fact.It is a problem of your Bible that not a single Gospel was written in time of Christ.All the works had been completed after Jesus Christ and not in his presence.It is very easy to say that John was 'inspired'


Originally posted by PattyaMainer

I DID show you in the other topic where Jesus himself told St. Thomas that "since you touched the nail prints in my hands you believe (that I am the Christ)....but blessed are those who have NOT felt the nail prints in my hands yet still believe (That I am the Christ).  Yes, Ali, Jesus Christ Himself said these words in the Gospel.
 
Peace and Wisdom,
Patty


 I am waiting


Posted By: Nazarene
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 5:07am
my dear patty:
peace you and your family
 
 as for the church, it practice geniside on my people in the name of jesus.{ jesus also says " YOU'LL TELL BY THIER FRUITS IF THEY ARE FROM ME "}
 
i am no prodestent.
 
all i did was state an historical fact,
 
all i did was ask a question.
 
truths?
 
your reply......speaks of many truths.
leland
 
 


-------------
love for all conquers all


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 10:37am
Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

 
Oh yea of little faith, Ali!  St. John was a prophet of God....what he said in the Gospel of John were the inspired words given to John to say in this Gospel.  Are you saying God told John to say false words??


 If John 1:1 is a words of Christ then why RED LETTER BIBLE doesnot mention it in red colors?

 I am not arguing whether John was a prophet of God or not?Even i can show you that Gospel of John is not written by him.Even i can show you that John 1:1 doesnot prove any divinity of christ.

 But my point is John 1:1 is not saying of christ and we all know this fact.It is a problem of your Bible that not a single Gospel was written in time of Christ.All the works had been completed after Jesus Christ and not in his presence.It is very easy to say that John was 'inspired'


Originally posted by PattyaMainer

I DID show you in the other topic where Jesus himself told St. Thomas that "since you touched the nail prints in my hands you believe (that I am the Christ)....but blessed are those who have NOT felt the nail prints in my hands yet still believe (That I am the Christ).  Yes, Ali, Jesus Christ Himself said these words in the Gospel.
 
Peace and Wisdom,
Patty


 I am waiting
 
It is a moot point, Ali.  As I have said before you only want me to respond so you can continue to insult my faith and twist the Holy Scriptures.  I am sure you are a good person, and a devout Muslim....I am also a devout Catholic and I try (but sometimes fail) to be a good person myself.  It is impossible to explain anything to you, as a Muslim, because you can simply say "well, that's not true....your bible is false,  Jesus didn't say that, this doesn't make sense, how do you know God told St. John to say those words", etc. etc., ad nauseum.  How rude!!!  I could say the same about Mohammed.....how do you know what people wrote in the Qur'an is really what Mohammed said, or how do you even know what he said was inspired?"  See how awful it feels to have your beliefs, your religion scoffed at???  Well, that is exactly what you have been doing to mine, only much worse!  I believe in the Catholic Church because I have faith...the same reason you believe the Qur'an.  We have faith that our beliefs are correct.  I am a little weary of talking to you, as you respond like a rock.  You repeat the same mantra over and over and over.  You believe nothing I say, so I will say this....I hope one day you listen with an open mind and an open heart.  Until then, there is no point in discussing religion. 
 
Peace to you,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 11:24am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer




 It is a moot point, Ali.  As I have said before you only want me to respond so you can continue to insult my faith and twist the Holy Scriptures.  I am sure you are a good person, and a devout Muslim....I am also a devout Catholic and I try (but sometimes fail) to be a good person myself.  It is impossible to explain anything to you, as a Muslim, because you can simply say "well, that's not true....your bible is false,  Jesus didn't say that, this doesn't make sense, how do you know God told St. John to say those words", etc. etc., ad nauseum.  How rude!!! I could say the same about Mohammed.....how do you know what people wrote in the Qur'an is really what Mohammed said, or how do you even know what he said was inspired?"  See how awful it feels to have your beliefs, your religion scoffed at???  Well, that is exactly what you have been doing to mine, only much worse!  I believe in the Catholic Church because I have faith...the same reason you believe the Qur'an.  We have faith that our beliefs are correct.  I am a little weary of talking to you, as you respond like a rock.  You repeat the same mantra over and over and over.  You believe nothing I say, so I will say this....I hope one day you listen with an open mind and an open heart.  Until then, there is no point in discussing religion. 
 
Peace to you,
Patty


 My question was very simple 'Where Jesus Christ himself claims to have dual nature?'

 And you didnot quote a single verse where Jesus himself claimed to have dual nature.

 You are going to quote John 1:1 and we know that it is not a Jesus's speaking(and you also know very well if you donot know then read Red Letter Bible)

 Note:The New Testament is a collection of  4 biographies of Christ, 27 epistles of St. Paul, and other books on the lives and adventures on the followers of Christ.  There is no record of a book revealed to Jesus. Perhaps the closest to it are the words of Jesus himself, which constitutes less than 10% of the NT.

 If you still insist that no no John 1:1 is inspired by God and actually Jesus told John to write John 1:1.

 Then let us move to John 1:1

 Do you think John 1:1 proves any divinity of Christ?Do you think John believe in divinity of Christ?

 If this is a case then you are wrong.Because John 1:1 doesnot prove any divinity of Christ.

 Here is briefly response:

 John 1:1
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85 - http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85
 

 
 

 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
its interesting that when I quoted this verse in which Jesus says : " I am returning to my God and your God" or " that father is greater than I" you change your position there by saying because Jesus was in human form. Now when the devil is talking to him, you wants us to not take Jesus as the man form, rather as God form.
And by the way, it is ridiculous to assume that the devil, created by God will try to trick and ask God " if you do this (God) I will give you this and that. That is laughable. My 3rd, 5th and 7th grader all will be laughing when I tell them this later tonight.
 
God is not a joke Patty.  Truth is not always easy to come, yet its the only choice. And you don't have to butter it up, its that simple and flat. None of the God's prophets according to the records were diplomatic when it came to belief in one God. They were as clear and blunt as can be. They knew and were told to make things clear and warn of the consequences. There is not other way.
Only thing I showed you is the truth of the matter and the argument with proof from your trusted source.
You will be asked what and why you believed, and I will be asked the same. We will be justly dealt! word for word, act for act by the Almighty, that's how I believe.
 
By the way we don't need an intercessor to connect us to the Almighty. God is near to you and I than them.
Hasan
 
I cannot explain the Trinity to you, Hasan.  It is three separate entities, persons, who come together to form ONE God.  Christians do NOT believe in multiple Gods.  What really bothers me is your statement that you will have children laughing at MY beliefs and religion.  I would never stoop to do such a thing to any child.  Yes, God is very near to me.  You are right on that one.  As I mentioned to you previously, we follow different paths.  Peace to you on your journey.  I spoke with two priests who told me it is impossible to explain the Trinity to Muslims for many reasons.  It is a difficult concept to be sure and takes great faith.  It is there in the Bible (not the word trinity, but the concept).  This is my last post to you because it is futile to even attempt to explain my beliefs, but mainly because you have become somewhat rude in your posts to me, and especially because of your comments regarding disrespecting my religion to the point of having young children laugh.  I would never resort to disrespecting any religion to a child.  What a shame you feel that is great fun.
 
 
 
Patty,
I am sorry that it bothered you what I have said. And let me tell you, my kids 7,9, and almost 12 are very respective to all regardless. They are also very advanced kids in term of learning. These are kids that start reading at age 3 1/2- 4. They are homeschooled. My 7 year old is a 3rd grader. They know about major world beliefs since they were 3-4 years old. Apart from what they believe, they can tell you what a Hindu worships, a Catholic, a Christian or a Jew. And they also know what and who is God. They also know its not a joke talking about God.
As I went home that day. Before our Isha Salath, which we do together I told them that today I have a question for them and I asked them this question: "According to a Catholic lady, a friend of mine, the Devil, a creation of God, is offering to God, great rewards for serving and worshipping him, how does that sounds to you?" 
You know they did not laugh, and I am sorry if said they would, very seriously and without blinking they said, "that's silly" my oldest one further added that God has command over all, including the Devil who depends on God. How can he dare to do that, its silly, she said seriously.
So true, devil can never dare to trick, or lower God into some reward for serving him. God serving devil, the one created by God, no my dear you are gravely mistaken and anyone who says so.
Now if you say that Devil tried to lower Moses or Jesus or any of God's prophets and offer some reward for that, I can understand that and it would not be untrue. Many of us fight with the devil on a second to second basis thes days due to abundance of his council.
But regardless of being in any religious context, it is obsurd to claim that a creation will try to offer something, trick and overcome its creator.  And we are talking about 'The CREATOR.'
 
Wish you the Best.
Hasan
 

Every Muslim knows from childhood that Christians believe in three Gods. He is constantly warned about committing this "sin of sins". The fact that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit sounds like blasphemy to a Muslim and is synonymous with breaking the first commandment: "You shall not have any other gods before me." Anyone who confesses that there are one or two god-like persons beside Allah commits an unforgivable sin. This coincides with the sin against the Holy Spirit (Sura al-Nisa 4:48 and 116).

A Muslim does not know the reality of the triune God, nor does he want to know it. He rejects it decidedly. A Muslim feels repelled when Christians try to explain the Trinity to him. "Three cannot be one, and one is not three," is their stereotyped answer. Allah in Islam does not need a helper, mediator or partner. He alone is great. No one is like Him.

A divine triumvirate could, in the eyes of a Muslim, bring the possibility of an insurrection of one God against the other. Jealousy, ambition, hate and criticism would be unavoidable. At the head of a Muslim country there is usually just one ruler. Rivals are executed. In the same way Allah can only be one.

The mystery that our God is love remains hidden to Muslims. The Father loved the Son before all time. He is not an egoist who only loves Himself. Through Him, the "Word," He created the universe. After Jesus' substitutionary death of reconciliation, the Father bestowed all power in heaven and on earth into the hands of the risen conqueror. The Holy Spirit today is completing the work of the Son in His church. Muslims see none of this. They also do not understand that the Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself, but the Son, and the Son continually honours the Father, who has set the Victor over sin, death and hell at His right hand. Such spiritual relationships in the Holy Trinity are completely foreign to a Muslim. He does not want to understand the words of Jesus: "I and the Father are one", or "the Father is in Me and I in Him." Love, humility and self-denial, in Islam, do not emerge as roots of every spiritual authority. Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable.

According to Islamic faith, Allah is the unquestioned ruler and despot who reigns arbitrarily. No one knows why he leads some to paradise, or why hell is the destiny of others. A Muslim prostrates himself on the ground before Allah like a slave before his master, who does not know whether he will be apportioned life or death, grace or damnation. He longs for mercy and his honest intent to worship the only true God earnestly brings no assurance of everlasting life.
 
God's Peace Always,
Patty
 
 
Patty,
sorry I was away for a few days, but here I am to respond to your statements. I notice some of your statments are not so characteristic of you and I must correct you on those.
 
you wrote: Every Muslim knows from childhood that Christians believe in three Gods. He is constantly warned about committing this "sin of sins". The fact that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit sounds like blasphemy to a Muslim and is synonymous with breaking the first commandment: "You shall not have any other gods before me." Anyone who confesses that there are one or two god-like persons beside Allah commits an unforgivable sin. This coincides with the sin against the Holy Spirit (Sura al-Nisa 4:48 and 116).
 
I must say Patty, you are wrong on that. First not all Muslims teach their kids how others believe, many in fact don't teach their kids about their own while many others do. So its incorrect  for you so think that that's how all Muslims teach their kids.  I grew up in a Muslim country with our front door Christian neighbors very close to us ineveryday life. We never try to convince or counter religion with them. All we knew that they believe God has a son. My best friend in college back home was a Christian, all if I ever heard was that they believe that God has a son. That's all I knew about him. It was not until I came here that I heard that the son also being God.
I have mentioned this before, my wife is also a former Christian, and I know of many other former Catholics (hispanics) who are now Muslims. They tell me that trinity was always a mystry to them as they were told how it is, In Islam they say now they are free of that mystry. Now this is not Muslims who are came up with, these are people who all their lives were believing in trinity, yet did not understand or grasped it.
To any Christian that I have encoutered, and I did many, this was a great challange when I asked them about explaining it. After being unable to do so, just like you said "I cannot explain the Trinity to you, Hasan" they will just invite me to come to their church, and that's it.
I do not teach my kids that Christians believe in three gods, rather how Christians say it themselves. That God is One, who has a son, Jesus and supported by the Holy Spirit. And they understand that, they just cannot see that to be true. They say, God cannot and does not have a son. If God has a son than He is not God, because God is above these kind of things we human can have. They also say, that if God has a son, and a Mother as you and Catholics believes then there is more than three. God the Mother should be first, God the Father, then comes God the Son and then the Holy Spirit. They also say what happened to God the Grandmother, and God the Grandfather, and you know all of the above. So, its a never ending thing. Thus we believe what is without mystry and evident reality, One God. No nothing else beside him as god. No ifs no butts. You got that right there is none like God, period. God does not need anything and anyone, the only One Free of All Wants and Needs.
 
You also wrote:

The mystery that our God is love remains hidden to Muslims. The Father loved the Son before all time. He is not an egoist who only loves Himself. Through Him, the "Word," He created the universe. After Jesus' substitutionary death of reconciliation, the Father bestowed all power in heaven and on earth into the hands of the risen conqueror. The Holy Spirit today is completing the work of the Son in His church. Muslims see none of this. They also do not understand that the Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself, but the Son, and the Son continually honours the Father, who has set the Victor over sin, death and hell at His right hand. Such spiritual relationships in the Holy Trinity are completely foreign to a Muslim. He does not want to understand the words of Jesus: "I and the Father are one", or "the Father is in Me and I in Him." Love, humility and self-denial, in Islam, do not emerge as roots of every spiritual authority. Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable.

This is more of an attack and not expected of someone like you Patty, did someone hijacked you name, or someone else is speaking behind you? LOL
 
No God's love is not hidden from us the Muslims. You are 100% wrong to say that Muslims say that God only loves himself, or that God has ego. That is just your thoughts and not the truth at all.  We Muslims are aware of God's love for humanity that He has bestowed upon us since Adam, in form of his guides and guidance.
We understand that His love is abundent, and it was his love for us that He sent us the guidance and the last testament, the Quran. Its upto us to answer that call of love and salvation with humbleness and truth, or keep living in love for ourself and in ignorance to our own loss.
We understand that if we don't answer to his call before the angel of death takes our soul, we will have no part in the herafter, thus be among the loosers.
 
Further you said: Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable
 
Wrong again dear Patty, this is how close God is to all of us, 
Quran 50:16"It is (God) Who created man, and (God) knows what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein."
3:76 "Nay.- Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright,-verily Allah loves those who act aright."
 
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 15 December 2008 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
its interesting that when I quoted this verse in which Jesus says : " I am returning to my God and your God" or " that father is greater than I" you change your position there by saying because Jesus was in human form. Now when the devil is talking to him, you wants us to not take Jesus as the man form, rather as God form.
And by the way, it is ridiculous to assume that the devil, created by God will try to trick and ask God " if you do this (God) I will give you this and that. That is laughable. My 3rd, 5th and 7th grader all will be laughing when I tell them this later tonight.
 
God is not a joke Patty.  Truth is not always easy to come, yet its the only choice. And you don't have to butter it up, its that simple and flat. None of the God's prophets according to the records were diplomatic when it came to belief in one God. They were as clear and blunt as can be. They knew and were told to make things clear and warn of the consequences. There is not other way.
Only thing I showed you is the truth of the matter and the argument with proof from your trusted source.
You will be asked what and why you believed, and I will be asked the same. We will be justly dealt! word for word, act for act by the Almighty, that's how I believe.
 
By the way we don't need an intercessor to connect us to the Almighty. God is near to you and I than them.
Hasan
 
I cannot explain the Trinity to you, Hasan.  It is three separate entities, persons, who come together to form ONE God.  Christians do NOT believe in multiple Gods.  What really bothers me is your statement that you will have children laughing at MY beliefs and religion.  I would never stoop to do such a thing to any child.  Yes, God is very near to me.  You are right on that one.  As I mentioned to you previously, we follow different paths.  Peace to you on your journey.  I spoke with two priests who told me it is impossible to explain the Trinity to Muslims for many reasons.  It is a difficult concept to be sure and takes great faith.  It is there in the Bible (not the word trinity, but the concept).  This is my last post to you because it is futile to even attempt to explain my beliefs, but mainly because you have become somewhat rude in your posts to me, and especially because of your comments regarding disrespecting my religion to the point of having young children laugh.  I would never resort to disrespecting any religion to a child.  What a shame you feel that is great fun.
 
 
 
Patty,
I am sorry that it bothered you what I have said. And let me tell you, my kids 7,9, and almost 12 are very respective to all regardless. They are also very advanced kids in term of learning. These are kids that start reading at age 3 1/2- 4. They are homeschooled. My 7 year old is a 3rd grader. They know about major world beliefs since they were 3-4 years old. Apart from what they believe, they can tell you what a Hindu worships, a Catholic, a Christian or a Jew. And they also know what and who is God. They also know its not a joke talking about God.
As I went home that day. Before our Isha Salath, which we do together I told them that today I have a question for them and I asked them this question: "According to a Catholic lady, a friend of mine, the Devil, a creation of God, is offering to God, great rewards for serving and worshipping him, how does that sounds to you?" 
You know they did not laugh, and I am sorry if said they would, very seriously and without blinking they said, "that's silly" my oldest one further added that God has command over all, including the Devil who depends on God. How can he dare to do that, its silly, she said seriously.
So true, devil can never dare to trick, or lower God into some reward for serving him. God serving devil, the one created by God, no my dear you are gravely mistaken and anyone who says so.
Now if you say that Devil tried to lower Moses or Jesus or any of God's prophets and offer some reward for that, I can understand that and it would not be untrue. Many of us fight with the devil on a second to second basis thes days due to abundance of his council.
But regardless of being in any religious context, it is obsurd to claim that a creation will try to offer something, trick and overcome its creator.  And we are talking about 'The CREATOR.'
 
Wish you the Best.
Hasan
 

Every Muslim knows from childhood that Christians believe in three Gods. He is constantly warned about committing this "sin of sins". The fact that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit sounds like blasphemy to a Muslim and is synonymous with breaking the first commandment: "You shall not have any other gods before me." Anyone who confesses that there are one or two god-like persons beside Allah commits an unforgivable sin. This coincides with the sin against the Holy Spirit (Sura al-Nisa 4:48 and 116).

A Muslim does not know the reality of the triune God, nor does he want to know it. He rejects it decidedly. A Muslim feels repelled when Christians try to explain the Trinity to him. "Three cannot be one, and one is not three," is their stereotyped answer. Allah in Islam does not need a helper, mediator or partner. He alone is great. No one is like Him.

A divine triumvirate could, in the eyes of a Muslim, bring the possibility of an insurrection of one God against the other. Jealousy, ambition, hate and criticism would be unavoidable. At the head of a Muslim country there is usually just one ruler. Rivals are executed. In the same way Allah can only be one.

The mystery that our God is love remains hidden to Muslims. The Father loved the Son before all time. He is not an egoist who only loves Himself. Through Him, the "Word," He created the universe. After Jesus' substitutionary death of reconciliation, the Father bestowed all power in heaven and on earth into the hands of the risen conqueror. The Holy Spirit today is completing the work of the Son in His church. Muslims see none of this. They also do not understand that the Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself, but the Son, and the Son continually honours the Father, who has set the Victor over sin, death and hell at His right hand. Such spiritual relationships in the Holy Trinity are completely foreign to a Muslim. He does not want to understand the words of Jesus: "I and the Father are one", or "the Father is in Me and I in Him." Love, humility and self-denial, in Islam, do not emerge as roots of every spiritual authority. Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable.

According to Islamic faith, Allah is the unquestioned ruler and despot who reigns arbitrarily. No one knows why he leads some to paradise, or why hell is the destiny of others. A Muslim prostrates himself on the ground before Allah like a slave before his master, who does not know whether he will be apportioned life or death, grace or damnation. He longs for mercy and his honest intent to worship the only true God earnestly brings no assurance of everlasting life.
 
God's Peace Always,
Patty
 
 
Patty,
sorry I was away for a few days, but here I am to respond to your statements. I notice some of your statments are not so characteristic of you and I must correct you on those.
 
you wrote: Every Muslim knows from childhood that Christians believe in three Gods. He is constantly warned about committing this "sin of sins". The fact that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit sounds like blasphemy to a Muslim and is synonymous with breaking the first commandment: "You shall not have any other gods before me." Anyone who confesses that there are one or two god-like persons beside Allah commits an unforgivable sin. This coincides with the sin against the Holy Spirit (Sura al-Nisa 4:48 and 116).
 
I must say Patty, you are wrong on that. First not all Muslims teach their kids how others believe, many in fact don't teach their kids about their own while many others do. So its incorrect  for you so think that that's how all Muslims teach their kids.  I grew up in a Muslim country with our front door Christian neighbors very close to us ineveryday life. We never try to convince or counter religion with them. All we knew that they believe God has a son. My best friend in college back home was a Christian, all if I ever heard was that they believe that God has a son. That's all I knew about him. It was not until I came here that I heard that the son also being God.
I have mentioned this before, my wife is also a former Christian, and I know of many other former Catholics (hispanics) who are now Muslims. They tell me that trinity was always a mystry to them as they were told how it is, In Islam they say now they are free of that mystry. Now this is not Muslims who are came up with, these are people who all their lives were believing in trinity, yet did not understand or grasped it.
To any Christian that I have encoutered, and I did many, this was a great challange when I asked them about explaining it. After being unable to do so, just like you said "I cannot explain the Trinity to you, Hasan" they will just invite me to come to their church, and that's it.
I do not teach my kids that Christians believe in three gods, rather how Christians say it themselves. That God is One, who has a son, Jesus and supported by the Holy Spirit. And they understand that, they just cannot see that to be true. They say, God cannot and does not have a son. If God has a son than He is not God, because God is above these kind of things we human can have. They also say, that if God has a son, and a Mother as you and Catholics believes then there is more than three. God the Mother should be first, God the Father, then comes God the Son and then the Holy Spirit. They also say what happened to God the Grandmother, and God the Grandfather, and you know all of the above. So, its a never ending thing. Thus we believe what is without mystry and evident reality, One God. No nothing else beside him as god. No ifs no butts. You got that right there is none like God, period. God does not need anything and anyone, the only One Free of All Wants and Needs.
 
You also wrote:

The mystery that our God is love remains hidden to Muslims. The Father loved the Son before all time. He is not an egoist who only loves Himself. Through Him, the "Word," He created the universe. After Jesus' substitutionary death of reconciliation, the Father bestowed all power in heaven and on earth into the hands of the risen conqueror. The Holy Spirit today is completing the work of the Son in His church. Muslims see none of this. They also do not understand that the Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself, but the Son, and the Son continually honours the Father, who has set the Victor over sin, death and hell at His right hand. Such spiritual relationships in the Holy Trinity are completely foreign to a Muslim. He does not want to understand the words of Jesus: "I and the Father are one", or "the Father is in Me and I in Him." Love, humility and self-denial, in Islam, do not emerge as roots of every spiritual authority. Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable.

This is more of an attack and not expected of someone like you Patty, did someone hijacked you name, or someone else is speaking behind you? LOL
 
No God's love is not hidden from us the Muslims. You are 100% wrong to say that Muslims say that God only loves himself, or that God has ego. That is just your thoughts and not the truth at all.  We Muslims are aware of God's love for humanity that He has bestowed upon us since Adam, in form of his guides and guidance.
We understand that His love is abundent, and it was his love for us that He sent us the guidance and the last testament, the Quran. Its upto us to answer that call of love and salvation with humbleness and truth, or keep living in love for ourself and in ignorance to our own loss.
We understand that if we don't answer to his call before the angel of death takes our soul, we will have no part in the herafter, thus be among the loosers.
 
Further you said: Allah is different. He is the only one exalted from beginning to end, solitary and unreachable
 
Wrong again dear Patty, this is how close God is to all of us, 
Quran 50:16"It is (God) Who created man, and (God) knows what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein."
3:76 "Nay.- Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright,-verily Allah loves those who act aright."
 
Hasan
 
My Dear Hasan,
 
I apologize if I have offended you.  It is my own lack of verbal ability to accurately explain to you what you have been asking about.  It frustrates me deeply, because I am such a devout Catholic and Christian, yet I seem to fail miserably in my efforts to explain my faith to you.  Also, I had learned that a dear friend of mine was found dead in her home, and I have been saddened by this tragedy.
 
You see, Hasan, I think I have mentioned this before, but on an Islamic website I cannot (or will not) out of respect say anything questioning about your religion.  There are many things in the Qur'an which appear contradictory or inaccurate, even violent toward infidels, to me.  But that aside, the more I attempt to explain or enlighten you regarding why Catholics believe, worship, think the way we do, the more I am met with more statements telling me how my Bible is corrupt, that "Jesus never said that, or how Hispanics are becoming Islamic because they "don't understand the Trinity."  That is no secret that many Hispanics are converting to Islam.....but I seriously doubt it is for that reason.  I will not comment further on that topic.  My main point is that I cannot have a mature exchange regarding our religions because you, as a Muslim, do not believe the Bible.  You believe some doddering old fool wrote whatever he wanted, that God did not inspire the prophets (saints) in my Bible, etc.  So with your frame of mind, how could I possibly expect you to understand? 
 
I have spent so many hours studying ancient writings, such as the Greek Septuagint, the writings of Flavius Josephus and the Jewish Antiquities, the Latin Vulgate, and all the more modern Bibles.  I have a friend who is a scholar of the ancient writings, a Jesuit priest and professor at Fordham University in NY.  We have had many conversations about these translations and the translators.  I have no doubt regarding their authenticity and validity.  I am sure you must realize portions of the original writings are still here on earth in museums....one I know of in particular, written on papyrus,  is in a museum in Dublin, Ireland. 
 
You know, Hasan, one thing which I really appreciate within the Catholic Church is our belief that God is a very mericful and just God.  He loves us because we are His children....He created us.  So Catholics believe that upon our death God calls to everyone of us to accept Him and believe.  We also believe that He accepts into His Kingdom ALL THOSE who have lived their life in a moral, decent, and just manner.  Many have never had the opportunity to learn of our God.  Are they to be damned to Hell since their lack of knowledge is through no fault of their own?  The Catholic Church says NO, and so do I (for whatever it is worth.)  I believe God is very fair, and I believe at the end of our lives, or on Judgement Day, He will look at each person's heart, did they love their "brothers", were they moral and upright, were they intentionally evil?  I believe people from ALL religions will be judged by our Almighty God and their fate will be determined based on how this person conducted himself/herself during their lifetime.  In Heaven I believe I will find people from all faiths, even no faith IF they lived the best moral, just, kind, and upright life possible....as this is what God expects of all humans. 
 
So we shall see, Hasan.  I am sure you, based on your many messages to me, will certainly be in Paradise when your time comes around.  I only pray that I will be there to see you. LOL    (I'm trying my best.)
 
God's Peace to You,
Patty


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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 December 2008 at 11:03am

Dear Patty,

I understand your frustration, but I must stick to the topic and to what we are trying to achieve here. The purpose of this forum as I understand is to learn, and to let others know what and how you understand and believe it be.
Morals and being good toward God's creation is a universal believe we all must practice as told in the Quran. 
Please don't be afraid of questioning Islam, and Quran. If you have a question or comment  please don't hesitate. Just look for appropriate topic or thread, if not found just start a new one.
And never think that you will affend anyone, unless you mean to do so.
I can of myself cannot decide who will be in paradise and who will be in hell fire, for me that is for God to decide. I only seek His mercy and forgiveness which I can expect if I know and serve Him correctly, which I can only do, if I base my action of serving him through knowledge and truth, which comes only through what I see, hear, learn and know about Him through what He has blessed me with, the capabilities of listening, seeing, thinking, analysing, and making judgements based on true obervations not internal or external fears and reservations.  
I do believe in illusions of all being in paradise, as good and evil are not the same according to the Quran, and one of the biggest evil is directing one's worship to someone other than God. There are many others who will not enter paradise according to the Quran. Many don't like to hear that, but that's the truth whether we like it or not. Everything has a consequence. And in Islam, a person correects his conduct seeing the consequence it may bring him later.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 17 December 2008 at 12:20pm

 Is Jesus Yahweh?

 
Jesus cannot be Yahweh. In Isaiah 44:24 it says that Yahweh was alone when he created the heavens and the earth. Matthew 12:18 quotes Isaiah 42:1 which says that Yahweh will send his servant. Who is that servant? It is Jesus.

Now if Yahweh was the one true God (Exodus 20:2-3) who alone created the heavens and the earth and he was the one who was to send his servant (Jesus), then that means that Jesus is not Yahweh. This means that Jesus is not God.


 


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 18 December 2008 at 1:25pm
Originally posted by honeto

Dear Patty,

I understand your frustration, but I must stick to the topic and to what we are trying to achieve here. The purpose of this forum as I understand is to learn, and to let others know what and how you understand and believe it be.
Morals and being good toward God's creation is a universal believe we all must practice as told in the Quran. 
Please don't be afraid of questioning Islam, and Quran. If you have a question or comment  please don't hesitate. Just look for appropriate topic or thread, if not found just start a new one.
And never think that you will affend anyone, unless you mean to do so.
I can of myself cannot decide who will be in paradise and who will be in hell fire, for me that is for God to decide. I only seek His mercy and forgiveness which I can expect if I know and serve Him correctly, which I can only do, if I base my action of serving him through knowledge and truth, which comes only through what I see, hear, learn and know about Him through what He has blessed me with, the capabilities of listening, seeing, thinking, analysing, and making judgements based on true obervations not internal or external fears and reservations.  
I do believe in illusions of all being in paradise, as good and evil are not the same according to the Quran, and one of the biggest evil is directing one's worship to someone other than God. There are many others who will not enter paradise according to the Quran. Many don't like to hear that, but that's the truth whether we like it or not. Everything has a consequence. And in Islam, a person correects his conduct seeing the consequence it may bring him later.
Hasan
 
I did not mean to imply that sinners, those who do not follow the teachings and commandments of Our Lord will go to paradise.  But it is all ultimately up to God to determine their fate.  I as for forgiveness many times when I know I have strayed from the path God has told us to follow.  I believe his promise that He will always forgive us if we only ask.
 
In my faith, which I believe in every bit as staunchly as you believe in Islam, we DO NOT worship, or pray to, ANYONE other than God....who is my religion is comprised of three totally separate entities which together comprise the Godhead, the Holy Trinity.  They are all separate, yet they are all equal....they ARE God.
 
Here are as many verses as I have time for you to read at your leisure from the Bible:
 
 

Bible Verses Stating Jesus is God also

Jesus was: "God Among Us"

 

 " javascript:void%280%29 - Shema Yisrael Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad."
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"Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord"
Deuteronomy 6: 4

But, our one God is Spirit and Light, with 3 natures
Jesus is God also, a part of the same spirit and the same light of the Father.

The Son differs to the Father nature as being Greater than the Son. When Jesus was fully man (and fully God), He was "positionally" inferior to the Father.  The Son is also the Logos, and the Word of God, who made everything seen & unseen by His Word.
 
The Father differs to the Son nature for our Salvation (our only mediator).
 
The Holy Spirit permeates all to bring us knowledge of God.
 

For more on this, and Jesus' statement:

"I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater [meizon] than I"

Read
http://prorege-forum.com/forum_entry.php?id=2581 - here


 

Reference to the Trinity

16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;  Isaiah 48:16-17

The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said:  "But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me."

The baptismal formula shows 3:

"baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19).

1st. Note how Jesus always cast out demons, cured the sick, and did miracles in His own name.  Also, on several occasions Jesus deliberately said; "I AM".  This would never have been taken lightly by any Jew of Jesus' time.

Think!  Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” When first encountered, this might not seem to be a claim to be God. However, when we look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “For a good work we stone thee not; replied the Jews, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” (John 10:33). Now we see an actual claim.  The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).

John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, "I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. " Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God? John repeatedly tells us of the Lord's connection to "I Am".  See John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58,and 13:19.  The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus "..is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (Colossians 1:15-17)

John 1:1 says that “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says that “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, "...Be shepherds of the church of God, which He bought with His own blood." Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. Acts 20:28 declares that God purchased the church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

To try and grasp the Trinity, first understand that God the Father the Son and Holy Spirit are Spirit, light, awesomeness, power, justice and love -- and He in no way conforms to a human's understanding.  Jesus told us God is Spirit.  Shine two beams of light on the same spot, and you have the light of one, separate, yet also the same as the others.  An example of Jesus' light and the Father's light as the same is at this true Near Death Experience http://bibleprobe.com/valvita.htm - here

Next, try to grasp Jesus' nature as being both totally human and totally God. To help you with this consider these paradoxes by early church father Gregory of Nazianzus (329-390 A.D.). Gregory used these to argue against Arianism.

"He was baptized as a man -- but He remitted sins as God...He was tempted as man, but he conquered as God...He hungered -- but He fed thousands...He was wearied, but He is the rest of them that are weary and heavy-laden. He was heavy with sleep, but He walked lightly over the sea...He pays tribute, but it is out of a fish; yea He is the king of those who demanded it...He prays, but he hears prayer. He weeps, but He causes tears to cease. He asks where Lazarus was laid, for He was man; but He raises Lazarus, for He was God. He is sold, and very cheap, for it is only for thirty pieces of silver; but He redeems the world, and that at a great price, for the price was His blood. As a sheep he is led to the slaughter, but He is the shepherd of Israel, and now of the whole world also...He is bruised and wounded, but He heals every disease and every infirmity. He is lifted up and nailed to the tree, but by the tree of life He restores us. He dies, but he gives life, and by His death He destroys death."

Cyril of Alexandria (376 - 444 AD) says, ‘Indeed, the mystery of Christ runs the risk of being disbelieved precisely because it is so incredibly wonderful.  For God was in humanity.  He who was above all creation was in our human condition; the invisible one was made visible in the flesh; he who is from the heavens and from on high was in the likeness of earthly things; the immaterial one could be touched; he who is free in his own nature came in the form of a slave; he who blesses all creation became accursed; he who is all righteousness was numbered among the transgressors; life itself came in the appearance of death.  All this followed because the body, which tasted death, belonged to no other but to him who is the Son by nature,’  [On the Unity of Christ]

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name ImmanuelIsaiah 7:14  (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matthew 1:23

For unto us a Child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder: and his name will be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 
Isaiah 9:6 (written: 712 BC (Before Christ)

And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
Luke 7:16

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

because he had not only broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:18

Jesus said:
I and my Father are one.
John 10:30

The Jews answered him [Jesus], saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
John 10:33

When many were about to stone Jesus for blasphemy (John 10:30-39), He said to them that said he blasphemed "because I said, I am the Son of God?" (John 10:36).

You call Me Teacher and Lord; and ye say well; for so I Am.
John 13:13
 

But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, I Am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mark 14:61-62

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Psalm 110:1

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:9

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?  The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works." ( http://www.jesuscentral.com/ji/life-of-jesus-ancient/biography-of-jesus-christ/who-is-Jesus-by-john/gospel-of-john-14_5-14.php - John 14:10 )

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:5

And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God.
John 20:28

...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:14-17

...Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Philippians 2:6

...For in him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Colossians 2:9

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16

...who [Jesus] is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1 Timothy 6:15

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.
Hebrews 1:2-3

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Titus 2:13

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS
Revelation 19:16

I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.  John 8:24

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I amJohn 8:58

Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven Matthew 7:21

And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us).

Note: "his wings" Isaiah 8:8 ...See the prophecy of the Tzit-Tzit (fringes of His gown) that Jesus fulfilled
http://www.bibleprobe.com/tzittzit.htm - here

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS
Jeremiah 23:5-6

Once, a paralytic man was presented before Jesus for healing ( javascript:NewWindow%28Luke.5.17-26.html%29 - Luke 5:17-26 ), and Jesus said, “Man, thy sins are forgiven thee” (Luke 5:20).  And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? (Luke 5:21).  But Jesus (God in flesh) knew their thoughts and queried,

But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts? Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house. (Luke 5:22-24)

And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God

Revelation 19:11-14 - speaking of Yeshua/Jesus leading the Army of Heaven:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Jehovah shares His glory only with Jesus...

In Isaiah 42:8 Jehovah himself is speaking, and He emphatically declares "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." Again, in Isaiah 48:11, Jehovah is speaking, and He declares: "For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another."

John 17:5 tells us Jesus said; "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Of course that is Jesus speaking of being part of the Godhead Himself. Since God will not share His glory. And Jesus tells us He had this glory with Yahweh/Jehovah before creation. What more proof from Jehovah or the lips of Jesus do you want?

The Scriptures bear unmistakable testimony to the creative activity of God's Son, distinguishing Him from among the "things" created, as the Creator and Sustainer of  "all things."

The Book of Colossians:

The entire context of Colossians 1:15-27 is filled with superlatives in its description of the Lord Jesus as the "image of the invisible God, the first begetter [or according to Erasmus ''original bringer forth''] of every creature."

The Apostle Paul lauds the Son of God as Creator of all things (v.16) and describes Him as existing "before all things" and as the one by whom "all things consist" (v.17). This is in perfect harmony with the entire picture Scripture paints of the Eternal Word of God (John 1:1), who was made flesh (John 1:14) and of whom it was written: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). The writer of Hebrews also pointed out that God's Son "[upholds] all things by the word of his power" (Hebrews 1:3) and that He is Deity in all its fullness, even as Paul wrote to the Colossians: "For...in him should all fullness (of God) dwell" (Colossians 1:19)

Reference for above, "Jehovah shares His glory only with Jesus..." -The Kingdom of the Cults (Walter Martin & Ravi Zacharias), page 96

WHAT ABOUT THIS "SON OF MAN" THING?

The expression, “son of man,” was used in the Old Testament by Daniel as the term for the Messiah Who, at His second descent to earth at the end of this age, would come “...with the clouds of heaven” ( javascript:NewWindow%28Dan.7.13,14.html%29 - I hope this will help you understand what I believe, and why I believe it. 

Peace,
Patty


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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 19 December 2008 at 1:35pm
 
 Response to Patty

Verses Commonly Used to Try to Support  the Doctrine of the Trinity

 

Old Testament

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=56 - Genesis 1:1

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=65 - Isaiah 7:14

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=57 - Genesis 1:26

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=66 - Isaiah 9:6

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=58 - Genesis 11:7

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=67 - Isaiah 43:11

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=59 - Genesis 16:7-13

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=68 - Isaiah 44:6

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=60 - Genesis 18:1 and 2

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=69 - Jeremiah 17:5

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=61 - Deuteronomy 6:4

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=70 - Jeremiah 23:6

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=62 - Psalm 45:6

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=71 - Micah 5:2

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=63 - Psalm 110:1

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=157 - Zechariah 12:10

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=64 - Proverbs 8:23

 

 

New Testament

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=72 - Matthew 1:23

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=116 - 1 Corinthians 8:6

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=73 - Matthew 4:10

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=117 - 1 Corinthians 10:4b

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=74 - Matthew 9:2 and 3

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=118 - 1 Corinthians 10:9

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=75 - Matthew 9:8b

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=119 - 1 Corinthians 12:4-6

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=76 - Matthew 28:18

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=120 - 2 Corinthians 5:19

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=77 - Matthew 28:19

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=121 - 2 Corinthians 12:19b

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=78 - Matthew 28:20b

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=122 - 2 Corinthians 13:14

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=79 - Mark 2:7

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=123 - Ephesians 1:22 and 23

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=80 - Luke 1:35

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=124 - Ephesians 3:9

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=81 - Luke 1:47

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=125 - Ephesians 4:7 and 8

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=82 - Luke 5:20 and 21

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=126 - Ephesians 5:5

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=83 - Luke 7:16

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=127 - Philippians 2:6-8

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=84 - Luke 8:39

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=128 - Colossians 1:15-20

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=85 - John 1:1

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=129 - Colossians 2:2

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=86 - John 1:3

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=130 - Colossians 2:9

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=87 - John 1:10

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=131 - 2 Thessalonians 1:12

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=88 - John 1:14a

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=132 - 1 Timothy 3:16

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=89 - John 1:15

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=133 - 1 Timothy 5:21

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=90 - John 1:18

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=134 - 1 Timothy 6:14-16

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=91 - John 2:19

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=135 - 2 Timothy 4:1

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=92 - John 2:24

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=136 - Titus 2:13

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=93 - John 3:13

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=137 - Hebrews 1:2

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=94 - John 5:18b

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=138 - Hebrews 1:8

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=95 - John 6:33

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=139 - Hebrews 1:10

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=96 - John 6:38

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=140 - Hebrews 2:16

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=97 - John 6:62

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=141 - Hebrews 4:8

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=98 - John 6:64

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=142 - Hebrews 7:3

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=99 - John 8:24b

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=143 - Hebrews 13:8

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=100 - John 8:58b

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=144 - 1 Peter 1:11

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=101 - John 10:18

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=145 - 2 Peter 1:1b

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=102 - John 10:30

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=164 - 1 John 2:22

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=103 - John 10:33

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=146 - 1 John 3:16

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=104 - John 14:11

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=165 - 1 John 4:1-3

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=105 - John 14:16 and 17

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=147 - 1 John 5:7 and 8

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=106 - John 17:5

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=148 - 1 John 5:20

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=107 - John 20:17

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=149 - Jude 4

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=108 - John 20:28

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150 - Revelation 1:8

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=109 - Acts 5:3 and 4

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=151 - Revelation 1:11

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=110 - Acts 7:45

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=152 - Revelation 1:13-15

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=111 - Acts 7:59

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=153 - Revelation 1:17

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=112 - Acts 20:28b

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=154 - Revelation 3:14

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=113 - Romans 9:5

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=155 - Revelation 21:6

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=114 - Romans 10:9

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=156 - Revelation 22:13

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=115 - Romans 10:13

 

 







Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 December 2008 at 3:09pm
Patty,
there is a lot in common between us as to how you believe about God's mercy and forgivenss. Then there are some very basic things we differ upon greatly.
In your long post above there is a small line that I want you to confirm for me, you said about Trinity:
"They are all separate, yet they are all equal....they ARE God."
 
I have two questions for you:
1-Is any one of the three (of the Trinity) has authority over the other or not?
2-Do you stand behind that statement of yours, and give me only two quotes from the Bible to support that claim of yours.
Thanks.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 30 December 2008 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
there is a lot in common between us as to how you believe about God's mercy and forgivenss. Then there are some very basic things we differ upon greatly.
In your long post above there is a small line that I want you to confirm for me, you said about Trinity:
"They are all separate, yet they are all equal....they ARE God."
Do you stand behind that statement of yours, and give me only two quotes from the Bible to support that claim of yours.
Thanks.
Hasan
 
Hasan,
 
Now you have talked to me long enough to know that I stand behind all my statements regarding my beliefs, my faith.  Here is one Scripture verse from I John 5-7:
 
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
 
 
And in Second Corinthians 13:14, I offer you this verse, Hasan:
 
 
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
 
Here we have the grace of the Son, the love of the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit.  Are these three different God's? Are love, grace, and communion three different items? No. Love, grace, and communion are one element in three stages: love is the source, grace is the expression of love, and communion is the transmission of this love in grace. Likewise, Father God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one God expressed in three Persons: Father God is the source, Christ is the expression of God, and the Holy Spirit is the transmission bringing God in Christ into man. So these are two verses which I stand firmly by in my belief of the Holy Trinity......ONE GOD in three stages.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
 


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 01 January 2009 at 9:52am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
there is a lot in common between us as to how you believe about God's mercy and forgivenss. Then there are some very basic things we differ upon greatly.
In your long post above there is a small line that I want you to confirm for me, you said about Trinity:
"They are all separate, yet they are all equal....they ARE God."
Do you stand behind that statement of yours, and give me only two quotes from the Bible to support that claim of yours.
Thanks.
Hasan
 
 
 
Hasan,
 
Now you have talked to me long enough to know that I stand behind all my statements regarding my beliefs, my faith.  Here is one Scripture verse from I John 5-7:
 
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
 
 
And in Second Corinthians 13:14, I offer you this verse, Hasan:
 
 
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
 
Here we have the grace of the Son, the love of the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit.  Are these three different God's? Are love, grace, and communion three different items? No. Love, grace, and communion are one element in three stages: love is the source, grace is the expression of love, and communion is the transmission of this love in grace. Likewise, Father God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one God expressed in three Persons: Father God is the source, Christ is the expression of God, and the Holy Spirit is the transmission bringing God in Christ into man. So these are two verses which I stand firmly by in my belief of the Holy Trinity......ONE GOD in three stages.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
 
 
Patty,
you are right I have known you and your belief by now.
Unfortunately, any of your claim has not been able to establish yet.
If you look at my question, it was to your claim, " yet they are all equal" 
In your reply you did not give a quote that shows that they are all equal.
Please quote an appropriate verse.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 01 January 2009 at 11:07am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
there is a lot in common between us as to how you believe about God's mercy and forgivenss. Then there are some very basic things we differ upon greatly.
In your long post above there is a small line that I want you to confirm for me, you said about Trinity:
"They are all separate, yet they are all equal....they ARE God."
Do you stand behind that statement of yours, and give me only two quotes from the Bible to support that claim of yours.
Thanks.
Hasan
 
 
 
Hasan,
 
Now you have talked to me long enough to know that I stand behind all my statements regarding my beliefs, my faith.  Here is one Scripture verse from I John 5-7:
 
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
 
 
And in Second Corinthians 13:14, I offer you this verse, Hasan:
 
 
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
 
Here we have the grace of the Son, the love of the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit.  Are these three different God's? Are love, grace, and communion three different items? No. Love, grace, and communion are one element in three stages: love is the source, grace is the expression of love, and communion is the transmission of this love in grace. Likewise, Father God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one God expressed in three Persons: Father God is the source, Christ is the expression of God, and the Holy Spirit is the transmission bringing God in Christ into man. So these are two verses which I stand firmly by in my belief of the Holy Trinity......ONE GOD in three stages.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
 
 
Patty,
you are right I have known you and your belief by now.
Unfortunately, any of your claim has not been able to establish yet.
If you look at my question, it was to your claim, " yet they are all equal" 
In your reply you did not give a quote that shows that they are all equal.
Please quote an appropriate verse.
Hasan
 
Hasan,
 
I think I have given you more than enough evidence to show that the Father, the Son (Word), and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD.  Three separate individuals who come together to form the Holy Trinity, the Godhead.  It says as much in the two verses I offered you, when the verse in I John says "AND THESE THREE ARE ONE"....ONE GOD, HASAN.  Being one Triune God certainly makes them equal.
 
Have a good day,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 January 2009 at 2:13pm
Patty,
unfortunately that claim of yours don't take one more than a few inches let alone to the next reality of life.
Not too far just inches away in the same book here is something to reflect upon. And as always you would find my reponse short, to the point, clear, and simple.
John 20:17
"I am ascending to my father and your father, and to my God and your God"
Please Patty read this many times over in a peaceful and quiet place. And it will click to you.
May God guide us all.
Hasan
 
 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Honzo
Date Posted: 05 January 2009 at 9:24pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Here is one Scripture verse from I John 5-7:
 
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."




The only verses in the whole Bible that explicitly ties God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one "Triune" being is the verse of 1 John 5:7

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

This verse is now universally recognized as being a later "insertion" of the Church and all recent versions of the Bible, such as the Revised Standard Version the New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc. have all unceremoniously expunged this verse from their pages.

Why is this? The scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gives the following explanation for this action in his "Emphatic Diaglott." Mr. Wilson says:

"This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have lead them to appeal to it's authority. It is therefore evidently spurious."

Others, such as the late Dr. Herbert W. Armstrong argued that this verse was added to the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible during the heat of the controversy between Rome, Arius, and God's people.

Whatever the reason, this verse is now universally recognized as an insertion and discarded. Since the Bible contains no verses validating a "Trinity" therefore, centuries after the departure of Jesus, God chose to inspire someone to insert this verse in order to clarify the true nature of God as being a "Trinity." Notice how mankind was being inspired as to how to "clarify" the Bible centuries after the departure of Jesus (pbuh). People continued to put words in the mouths of Jesus, his disciples, and even God himself with no reservations whatsoever. They were being "inspired" (see chapter two).

If these people were being "inspired" by God, I wondered, then why did they need to put these words into other people's mouths (in our example, in the mouth of John). Why did they not just openly say "God inspired me and I will add a chapter to the Bible in my name"? Also, why did God need to wait till after the departure of Jesus to "inspire" his "true" nature? Why not let Jesus (pbuh) say it himself?

The great luminary of Western literature, Mr. Edward Gibbon, explains the reason for the discardal of this verse from the pages of the Bible with the following words:

"Of all the manuscripts now extant, above fourscore in number, some of which are more than 1200 years old, the orthodox copies of the Vatican, of the Complutensian editors, of Robert Stephens are becoming invisible; and the two manuscripts of Dublin and Berlin are unworthy to form an exception...In the eleventh and twelfth centuries, the Bibles were corrected by LanFrank, Archbishop of Canterbury, and by Nicholas, a cardinal and librarian of the Roman church, secundum Ortodoxam fidem. Notwithstanding these corrections, the passage is still wanting in twenty-five Latin manuscripts, the oldest and fairest; two qualities seldom united, except in manuscripts....The three witnesses have been established in our Greek Testaments by the prudence of Erasmus; the honest bigotry of the Complutensian editors; the typographical fraud, or error, of Robert Stephens in the placing of a crotchet and the deliberate falsehood, or strange misapprehension, of Theodore Beza."

"Decline and fall of the Roman Empire," IV, Gibbon, p. 418.

Edward Gibbon was defended in his findings by his contemporary, the brilliant British scholar Richard Porson who also proceeded to publish devastatingly conclusive proof that the verse of 1 John 5:7 was only first inserted by the Church into the Bible in the year 400C.E.(Secrets of Mount Sinai, James Bentley, pp. 30-33).

Regarding Porson's most devastating proof, Mr. Gibbon later said

"His structures are founded in argument, enriched with learning, and enlivened with wit, and his adversary neither deserves nor finds any quarter at his hands. The evidence of the three heavenly witnesses would now be rejected in any court of justice; but prejudice is blind, authority is deaf, and our vulgar Bibles will ever be polluted by this spurious text."

To which Mr. Bentley responds:

"In fact, they are not. No modern Bible now contains the interpolation."

Mr. Bentley, however, is mistaken. Indeed, just as Mr. Gibbon had predicted, the simple fact that the most learned scholars of Christianity now unanimously recognize this verse to be a later interpolation of the Church has not prevented the preservation of this fabricated text in our modern Bibles. To this day, the Bible in the hands of the majority of Christians, the "King James" Bible, still unhesitantly includes this verse as the "inspired" word of God without so much as a footnote to inform the reader that all scholars of Christianity of note unanimously recognize it as a later fabrication.

Peake's Commentary on the Bible says

"The famous interpolation after 'three witnesses' is not printed even in RSVn, and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early Trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus."

It was only the horrors of the great inquisitions which held back Sir Isaac Newton from openly revealing these facts to all:

"In all the vehement universal and lasting controversy about the Trinity in Jerome's time and both before and long enough after it, the text of the 'three in heaven' was never once thought of. It is now in everybody's mouth and accounted the main text for the business and would assuredly have been so too with them, had it been in their books… Let them make good sense of it who are able. For my part I can make none. If it be said that we are not to determine what is scripture and what not by our private judgments, I confess it in places not controverted, but in disputed places I love to take up with what I can best understand. It is the temper of the hot and superstitious part of mankind in matters of religion ever to be fond of mysteries, and for that reason to like best what they understand least. Such men may use the Apostle John as they please, but I have that honor for him as to believe that he wrote good sense and therefore take that to be his which is the best"

Jesus, Prophet of Islam, Muhammad Ata' Ur-Rahim, p. 156

According to Newton, this verse first appeared for in the third edition of Erasmus's (1466-1536) New Testament.

For all of the above reasons, we find that when thirty two biblical scholars backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations got together to compile the Revised Standard Version of the Bible based upon the most ancient Biblical manuscripts available to them today, they made some very extensive changes. Among these changes was the unceremonious discardal of the verse of 1 John 5:7 as the fabricated insertion that it is. For more on the compilation of the RSV Bible, please read the preface of any modern copy of that Bible.

Such comparatively unimportant matters as the description of Jesus (pbuh) riding an ass (or was it a "colt", or was it an "ass and a colt"? see point 42 in the table of section 2.2) into Jerusalem are spoken about in great details since they are the fulfillment of a prophesy. For instance, in Mark 11:2-10 we read:

"And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring [him]. And if any man say unto you, Why do ye this? say ye that the Lord hath need of him; and straightway he will send him hither. And they went their way, and found the colt tied by the door without in a place where two ways met; and they loose him And certain of them that stood there said unto them, What do ye, loosing the colt? And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him. And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed [them] in the way And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord: Blessed [be] the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest."

Also see Luke 19:30-38 which has a similar detailed description of this occurrence. On the other hand, the Bible is completely free of any description of the "Trinity" which is supposedly a description of the very nature of the one who rode this ass, who is claimed to be the only son of God, and who allegedly died for the sins of all of mankind. I found myself asking the question: If every aspect of Christian faith is described in such detail such that even the description of this ass is so vividly depicted for us, then why is the same not true for the description of the "Trinity"? Sadly, however, it is a question for which there is no logical answer.


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 06 January 2009 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Honzo

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Here is one Scripture verse from I John 5-7:
 
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."




The only verses in the whole Bible that explicitly ties God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one "Triune" being is the verse of 1 John 5:7

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

This verse is now universally recognized as being a later "insertion" of the Church and all recent versions of the Bible, such as the Revised Standard Version the New Revised Standard Version, the New American Standard Bible, the New English Bible, the Phillips Modern English Bible ...etc. have all unceremoniously expunged this verse from their pages.

Why is this? The scripture translator Benjamin Wilson gives the following explanation for this action in his "Emphatic Diaglott." Mr. Wilson says:

"This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have lead them to appeal to it's authority. It is therefore evidently spurious."

Others, such as the late Dr. Herbert W. Armstrong argued that this verse was added to the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible during the heat of the controversy between Rome, Arius, and God's people.

Whatever the reason, this verse is now universally recognized as an insertion and discarded. Since the Bible contains no verses validating a "Trinity" therefore, centuries after the departure of Jesus, God chose to inspire someone to insert this verse in order to clarify the true nature of God as being a "Trinity." Notice how mankind was being inspired as to how to "clarify" the Bible centuries after the departure of Jesus (pbuh). People continued to put words in the mouths of Jesus, his disciples, and even God himself with no reservations whatsoever. They were being "inspired" (see chapter two).

If these people were being "inspired" by God, I wondered, then why did they need to put these words into other people's mouths (in our example, in the mouth of John). Why did they not just openly say "God inspired me and I will add a chapter to the Bible in my name"? Also, why did God need to wait till after the departure of Jesus to "inspire" his "true" nature? Why not let Jesus (pbuh) say it himself?

The great luminary of Western literature, Mr. Edward Gibbon, explains the reason for the discardal of this verse from the pages of the Bible with the following words:

"Of all the manuscripts now extant, above fourscore in number, some of which are more than 1200 years old, the orthodox copies of the Vatican, of the Complutensian editors, of Robert Stephens are becoming invisible; and the two manuscripts of Dublin and Berlin are unworthy to form an exception...In the eleventh and twelfth centuries, the Bibles were corrected by LanFrank, Archbishop of Canterbury, and by Nicholas, a cardinal and librarian of the Roman church, secundum Ortodoxam fidem. Notwithstanding these corrections, the passage is still wanting in twenty-five Latin manuscripts, the oldest and fairest; two qualities seldom united, except in manuscripts....The three witnesses have been established in our Greek Testaments by the prudence of Erasmus; the honest bigotry of the Complutensian editors; the typographical fraud, or error, of Robert Stephens in the placing of a crotchet and the deliberate falsehood, or strange misapprehension, of Theodore Beza."

"Decline and fall of the Roman Empire," IV, Gibbon, p. 418.

Edward Gibbon was defended in his findings by his contemporary, the brilliant British scholar Richard Porson who also proceeded to publish devastatingly conclusive proof that the verse of 1 John 5:7 was only first inserted by the Church into the Bible in the year 400C.E.(Secrets of Mount Sinai, James Bentley, pp. 30-33).

Regarding Porson's most devastating proof, Mr. Gibbon later said

"His structures are founded in argument, enriched with learning, and enlivened with wit, and his adversary neither deserves nor finds any quarter at his hands. The evidence of the three heavenly witnesses would now be rejected in any court of justice; but prejudice is blind, authority is deaf, and our vulgar Bibles will ever be polluted by this spurious text."

To which Mr. Bentley responds:

"In fact, they are not. No modern Bible now contains the interpolation."

Mr. Bentley, however, is mistaken. Indeed, just as Mr. Gibbon had predicted, the simple fact that the most learned scholars of Christianity now unanimously recognize this verse to be a later interpolation of the Church has not prevented the preservation of this fabricated text in our modern Bibles. To this day, the Bible in the hands of the majority of Christians, the "King James" Bible, still unhesitantly includes this verse as the "inspired" word of God without so much as a footnote to inform the reader that all scholars of Christianity of note unanimously recognize it as a later fabrication.

Peake's Commentary on the Bible says

"The famous interpolation after 'three witnesses' is not printed even in RSVn, and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early Trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus."

It was only the horrors of the great inquisitions which held back Sir Isaac Newton from openly revealing these facts to all:

"In all the vehement universal and lasting controversy about the Trinity in Jerome's time and both before and long enough after it, the text of the 'three in heaven' was never once thought of. It is now in everybody's mouth and accounted the main text for the business and would assuredly have been so too with them, had it been in their books… Let them make good sense of it who are able. For my part I can make none. If it be said that we are not to determine what is scripture and what not by our private judgments, I confess it in places not controverted, but in disputed places I love to take up with what I can best understand. It is the temper of the hot and superstitious part of mankind in matters of religion ever to be fond of mysteries, and for that reason to like best what they understand least. Such men may use the Apostle John as they please, but I have that honor for him as to believe that he wrote good sense and therefore take that to be his which is the best"

Jesus, Prophet of Islam, Muhammad Ata' Ur-Rahim, p. 156

According to Newton, this verse first appeared for in the third edition of Erasmus's (1466-1536) New Testament.

For all of the above reasons, we find that when thirty two biblical scholars backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations got together to compile the Revised Standard Version of the Bible based upon the most ancient Biblical manuscripts available to them today, they made some very extensive changes. Among these changes was the unceremonious discardal of the verse of 1 John 5:7 as the fabricated insertion that it is. For more on the compilation of the RSV Bible, please read the preface of any modern copy of that Bible.

Such comparatively unimportant matters as the description of Jesus (pbuh) riding an ass (or was it a "colt", or was it an "ass and a colt"? see point 42 in the table of section 2.2) into Jerusalem are spoken about in great details since they are the fulfillment of a prophesy. For instance, in Mark 11:2-10 we read:

"And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring [him]. And if any man say unto you, Why do ye this? say ye that the Lord hath need of him; and straightway he will send him hither. And they went their way, and found the colt tied by the door without in a place where two ways met; and they loose him And certain of them that stood there said unto them, What do ye, loosing the colt? And they said unto them even as Jesus had commanded: and they let them go And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him. And many spread their garments in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed [them] in the way And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord: Blessed [be] the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest."

Also see Luke 19:30-38 which has a similar detailed description of this occurrence. On the other hand, the Bible is completely free of any description of the "Trinity" which is supposedly a description of the very nature of the one who rode this ass, who is claimed to be the only son of God, and who allegedly died for the sins of all of mankind. I found myself asking the question: If every aspect of Christian faith is described in such detail such that even the description of this ass is so vividly depicted for us, then why is the same not true for the description of the "Trinity"? Sadly, however, it is a question for which there is no logical answer.
 
I realize (and understand why) Muslims are quite intimidated and frightened by this verse in I John.  I will offer this explanation to you:
 

Integrity of the Bible

It is hard to accept that God was capable of protecting the Qur’an from alteration and yet powerless to preserve his earlier books, the Torah, the Zabur, the Injil and the books of the prophets. Muslims, in believing that the Bible once was Allah’s word, but is no longer, in fact contradict the Qur’an which says: "There is none who can change His words" (Surah 6:116; 6:34; 10:64). Several centuries before Muhammad, the Bible stated: "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever" (1 Peter 1:24-25).

In the Qur’an we do not find any suggestion whatsoever that the text of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures had been altered at the time of Muhammad. Indeed Muhammad himself trusted these Scriptures so much that we find verses in the Qur’an which instruct Christians and Jews to follow their own Scriptures. How could the Qur’an say such things if the Bible were corrupted?

Let the people of the Gospel judge according to what has been revealed in it. ... Say O People of the Scriptures, Ye have naught of guidance till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord (Surah 5:47,68).

The immediate followers of Muhammad were so busy in establishing a Muslim community, that they did not have much time to read and compare the earlier Scriptures. When the next generation of Muslims after Muhammad came into regular contact with Christians, they found certain difficulties in reconciling the Qur’an with the Bible. First, Jesus did not prophesy about Muhammad and secondly, the Gospel narrative that Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose again. If, in the light of what the Qur’an said, they accepted that the Bible was a guide and light from God, then they would have had to accept the supremacy of Jesus. This would not only have led to the absorption of Islam into Christianity, but would also have diminished their political power. Since, in their opinion, the Qur’an could not be wrong, they were forced to discredit the text of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures by claiming that they had been changed.

Missing verses

Both orthodox and Ahmadi Muslims refer to certain variations they find in different translations of the Bible. To prove the Bible fallible, in their discussion with Christians, they compare certain passages from the Authorised Version with the Revised Standard Version and then argue that a certain verse is found in one copy and is missing in others, proving that the original text has been tampered with.5

Typical examples are John 5:2-4 and 1 John 5:7. Some translations have added brackets to such verses while other recent translations in English have included them in the margins or footnotes, stating that this portion of the text is not found in some of the earlier manuscripts discovered recently. However Bashir-ud-din, Mirza’s son has this to say:

When the Christians entered into conflict with the Muslims and the latter began to hurl attacks at such passages, the former altered the text of their sacred Scriptures and the words within brackets were expunged .6

In recent translations, only the first sentence of 1 John 5:7 is found compared with a long verse in the Authorised Version. Thus Bashir claims that it was simply done, ‘out of fear of Muslim criticism’.7 In endeavouring to discredit the Bible, other Muslim writers claim that by taking out most of 1 John 5:7 from the present day translations, the doctrine of the Trinity has been removed. This was the main passage that represented the ‘nearest thing to the Christian Trinity in the whole of the Bible’.8

If this were all the evidence, the doctrine of the Trinity would be in serious doubt. However there are other passages which provide evidence about the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Ephesians 2:18 and 2 Corinthians 13:14).

The standard in question

The irony is that the Qur’an has also suffered from variant readings, and thus the above argument can be used against the Qur’an, or any other book claiming to be inspired or revealed. Variant readings are not found in the present Qur’an simply because the Caliph Uthman (the third successor after Muhammad) ordered that the version codified by his commission should be treated as the official text. All other copies, even those of the most prominent Qurra, Qur’an reciters and the nearest companions of Muhammad, were ordered to be burnt.9 If the Bible had been rectified in such a way, we also would have had the one and only text available to us.

If our leading men had burnt all the ancient MSS. of the Bible and compelled all copies to be made from one which they had caused to be written, we too should have but few varied readings in our Bible, but all men of learning would feel that no reliance whatever was to be placed upon the text thus produced.10

The drastic action on the part of Uthman is itself evidence that major textual differences existed between various copies of the Qur’an. These differences were not only affecting the qira, recitation of the Qur’an, but also its form and content. Both orthodox and Ahmadi Muslims claim that the differences between these Qur’ans were only to be found in the pronunciation and in the recitation of the text:

The variations which have become the subject-matter of discussion were not variations either of the text or verse or even variations of a word. They were all cases of enunciation of vowel points which did not in any way alter the meaning or significance of a word.11

One wonders how anyone can accept the idea that the differences could appear only in the verbal recital of the text, without appearing in the written text and would not alter the meaning of a word. The unifying fact was the destruction of the written text that Uthman ordered. Furthermore, there were no vowel points in the early written text of the Qur’an. Therefore the difference in recital would never have appeared in the written manuscript. Thus Uthman was standardising one text of the Qur’an at the expense of all other Qur’ans with variant texts.

Although these major early Qur’anic manuscripts were destroyed, we have come to know about them and their variants from Muslim traditions, classical commentaries such as those of At-Tabari and Az-Zamakhsheri, and Islamic books written by respected and eminent Muslim divines. Such works as Jalaldin Sayyuti’s ‘Itaqan’ and Ibn-Abi Dawood’s ‘Kitab al-Masahif’ still survive. The latter contains the most information about differences that existed between the pre-Uthmanic codices. In the records of these early Muslim writers, we find many indications, from first hand sources, that the present Qur’an is incomplete. Abdullah ibn Umar, for example, is quoted as saying:

Let no man say, ‘I have learned the whole of the Qur’an!’ How can he have learned the whole of it when much of it has been lost? Let him say, ‘I have learned what is extant of it.’12

Like other Muslims, Ahmadiyya authors, in spite of strong proof, boldly allege that the Qur’an text "has been preserved absolutely pure and entire, down to the last vowel point".13

This is just exaggeration, because the history of the Qur’an text shows that diacritical marks and vowel points were only fully introduced at least two hundred years after Muhammad’s death.



-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Honzo
Date Posted: 06 January 2009 at 10:29pm

Originally posted by patty

I realize (and understand why) Muslims are quite intimidated and frightened by this verse in I John.  I

will offer this explanation to you:



patty u hv no clue wt u r talking abt, i hv stated the view point of ur own biblical scholars not my own personal

view.Which clearly suggest john 5-7 to be interpolation.


Originally posted by patty

It is hard to accept that God was capable of protecting the Qur’an from alteration and yet powerless to preserve

his earlier books, the Torah, the Zabur, the Injil and the books of the prophets. Muslims, in believing that the Bible

once was Allah’s word, but is no longer, in fact contradict the Qur’an which says: "There is none who can change His

words" (Surah 6:116; 6:34; 10:64)



Here i will help u out finding those verses:

But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words

from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them-

barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who

are kind. – [Quran 5:13]



Originally posted by patty

In the Qur’an we do not find any suggestion whatsoever that the text of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures had

been altered at the time of Muhammad. Indeed Muhammad himself trusted these Scriptures so much that we find verses in

the Qur’an which instruct Christians and Jews to follow their own Scriptures. How could the Qur’an say such things if

the Bible were corrupted?



From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message

that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the Day of Judgment.

And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. – [Quran 5:14]

Again we see in this verse, the Quran clearly mentions people who call themselves “Christians” (i.e. followers of

Christ) broke their covenant and abandoned the true message that was sent to them. When people like Paul came along

they abandoned the true teachings of Jesus (as) and tried to create a religion of their own. There was a race of

popularity being run by Paul. The Jews rejected Paul and today some scholars doubt that Paul himself was a Jew. However

that is to be discussed in a later article. Paul wanted people to accept his version of Christianity. As a marketing

ploy he included paganism in the teachings of Jesus so as to make it appealing to the Romans. This point will also be

discussed in a later article Insha’allah however it was appropriate to make reference to the doings of Paul here and

hence I did. Such people are being referred to by the Quran and truly today Christianity is no more than a Pauline

religion rather than being the religion brought by Jesus (as).



Among the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, “We hear and disobey” and “Hear but be

not heard” and “Ra‘ina,” twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], “We hear and

obey” and “Wait for us [to understand],” it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed

them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few. – [Quran 4:46]


The example of those who were entrusted with the Torah and then did not take it on is like that of a donkey who carries

volumes [of books]. Wretched is the example of the people who deny the signs (ayaat) of Allah. And Allah does not guide

the wrongdoing people. – [Quran 62:5] (emphasis added)



Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: “This is from Allah,” to traffic with it for

miserable price! - Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. – [Quran 2:79]


Originally posted by patty

Let the people of the Gospel judge according to what has been revealed in it. ... Say O People of the

Scriptures, Ye have naught of guidance till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you

from your Lord (Surah 5:47,68).




Allah Almighty commanded the Jews and Christians to rule among themselves according to the Bible only in the social and domestic disputes.  This was when Islam was partial and its Laws were not yet complete.  The following Hadith further proves this:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: "The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 829)"

But after Islam became complete, there was no reason for them to continue following the Bible:  ".....This day those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion:  Yet fear them not But fear Me (Allah).  This day have I (Allah) perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your (complete) religion....(The Noble Quran, 5:3)"



Here is what Noble Verse 7:157 states: "Those who follow the Messenger [Muhammad], the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good and prohibits them from what is bad; He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them.  So it is those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the Light which is sent down with him- it is they who will prosper."

We Muslims believe that Allah Almighty did send the Torah (Old Testament or the Law) to the Jews, but they then corrupted this Holy Message;  "We (Allah) certainly gave the Book To Moses, but differences arose therein:  had it not been That a Word had gone forth Before from thy Lord, the matter Would have been decided Between them:  but they Are in suspicious doubt Concerning it.  (The Noble Quran, 11:110)"  




Originally posted by patty

The immediate followers of Muhammad were so busy in establishing a Muslim community, that they did not have much time to read and compare the earlier Scriptures. When the next generation of Muslims after Muhammad came into regular contact with Christians, they found certain difficulties in reconciling the Qur’an with the Bible. First, Jesus did not prophesy about Muhammad and secondly, the Gospel narrative that Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose again. If, in the light of what the Qur’an said, they accepted that the Bible was a guide and light from God, then they would have had to accept the supremacy of Jesus. This would not only have led to the absorption of Islam into Christianity, but would also have diminished their political power. Since, in their opinion, the Qur’an could not be wrong, they were forced to discredit the text of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures by claiming that they had been changed.



Already proved otherwise .


here is something interesting tht ur own bible says:

"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.  (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"




Originally posted by patty

Missing verses

Both orthodox and Ahmadi Muslims refer to certain variations they find in different translations of the Bible. To prove the Bible fallible, in their discussion with Christians, they compare certain passages from the Authorised Version with the Revised Standard Version and then argue that a certain verse is found in one copy and is missing in others, proving that the original text has been tampered with.


First learn the difference between interpolation and variant. here is an example of variant reading in bible:


King James Bible
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

American King James Version
And he said, Who are you, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom you persecute: it is hard for you to kick against the pricks.


can u tell us wt are these pricks tht jesus is talking abt. Now this owrd "pricks" is not consideres as interpolation


Lets see wt they hv done in other versions:


International Standard Version (©2008)
Now get up, go into the city, and you will be told what you are to do."

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Saul asked, "Who are you, sir?" The person replied, "I'm Jesus, the one you're persecuting.




Originally posted by patty

When the Christians entered into conflict with the Muslims and the latter began to hurl attacks at such passages, the former altered the text of their sacred Scriptures and the words within brackets were expunged .6

In recent translations, only the first sentence of 1 John 5:7 is found compared with a long verse in the Authorised Version. Thus Bashir claims that it was simply done, ‘out of fear of Muslim criticism’.7 In endeavouring to discredit the Bible, other Muslim writers claim that by taking out most of 1 John 5:7 from the present day translations, the doctrine of the Trinity has been removed. This was the main passage that represented the ‘nearest thing to the Christian Trinity in the whole of the Bible’.




patty pls go back to my previous thread and read wt i hv mentioned.Have given enough evidences from ur biblical scholars which proves it to be interpolation
Here are more,

Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D on joh 5:7

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1186 - http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1186


Originally posted by patty

If this were all the evidence, the doctrine of the Trinity would be in serious doubt. However there are other passages which provide evidence about the unity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Ephesians 2:18 and 2 Corinthians 13:14).



None of those verses prove trinity.


Originally posted by patty

The standard in question

The irony is that the Qur’an has also suffered from variant readings, and thus the above argument can be used against the Qur’an, or any other book claiming to be inspired or revealed. Variant readings are not found in the present Qur’an simply because the Caliph Uthman (the third successor after Muhammad) ordered that the version codified by his commission should be treated as the official text. All other copies, even those of the most prominent Qurra, Qur’an reciters and the nearest companions of Muhammad, were ordered to be burnt.9 If the Bible had been rectified in such a way, we also would have had the one and only text available to us.

If our leading men had burnt all the ancient MSS. of the Bible and compelled all copies to be made from one which they had caused to be written, we too should have but few varied readings in our Bible, but all men of learning would feel that no reliance whatever was to be placed upon the text thus produced.




U hv failed to understand few basic, Qirat is not variant reading.


We would first like to define what is the actual meaning of Qirâ'a which is frequently translated as 'variant reading'. The Hans-Wehr Dictionary Of Modern Written Arabic defines Qirâ'a as:

    Qirâ'a pl. -ât recitation, recital (especially of the Koran); reading (also, e.g., of measuring instruments); manner of recitation, punctuation and vocalization of the Koranic text.

It is quite clear that the Qirâ'a is not a 'variant' reading or text. The Muslims in history have never considered different Qirâ'ât as different 'versions' of the Qur'an.



Originally posted by patty

Although these major early Qur’anic manuscripts were destroyed, we have come to know about them and their variants from Muslim traditions, classical commentaries such as those of At-Tabari and Az-Zamakhsheri, and Islamic books written by respected and eminent Muslim divines. Such works as Jalaldin Sayyuti’s ‘Itaqan’ and Ibn-Abi Dawood’s ‘Kitab al-Masahif’ still survive. The latter contains the most information about differences that existed between the pre-Uthmanic codices. In the records of these early Muslim writers, we find many indications, from first hand sources, that the present Qur’an is incomplete. Abdullah ibn Umar, for example, is quoted as saying:

Let no man say, ‘I have learned the whole of the Qur’an!’ How can he have learned the whole of it when much of it has been lost? Let him say, ‘I have learned what is extant of it.’12



can u pls provide authentication of the above narration :-D


Originally posted by patty

This is just exaggeration, because the history of the Qur’an text shows that diacritical marks and vowel points were only fully introduced at least two hundred years after Muhammad’s death



It is to be made clear that the Arabic script before and during the time of cUthmân was written without vowel and diacritical marks. To say that the vowels and diacritical marks were not included in the cUthmânic Qur'an actually shows the ignorance regarding of Arabic script. The need for vowel and diacritical marks arose only after the time of cUthmân to prevent the wrong recitation of the Qur'an by ignorant Arabs and non-Arabs.

Arabic orthography at the time of cUthmân was not yet developed in the way we have known for centuries, particularly in two important areas. There was no distinction between letters of the alphabet of similar shape and there were no vowel marks. This may now give the impression that such a system must have given rise to great confusion in reading. This was not actually the case because the morphological patterns of words in Arabic enable readers to read even very unfamiliar material without the short vowels being marked. More important, however, as far as the Qur'an was concerned, was the fact that learning and reading relied above all on oral transmission. In the Islamic tradition, writing remained a secondary aid; nevertheless, to ensure correct reading of the written texts of the Qur'an, particularly for those coming after the first generation of Muslims, steps were taken gradually to improve the orthography. This started with the two above mentioned areas by introducing dots to indicate different vowels and nűnâtion and these were put in different coloured ink from that of the text. There were also dots to distinguish between consonants of similar shape. This work was carried out chiefly by three men: Abű-l-Aswad al-Du'alî (d. 69 / 688), Nasr Ibn cAsim (d. 89 / 707) and Yahya Ibn Yacmur (d.129 /746). Understandably there was some opposition at first to adding anything to the way the Qur'an was written. Ibn cUmar (73/692) disliked the dotting; others welcomed it, clearly because it was, in fact, doing no more than ensuring proper reading of the Qur'an as received from the Prophet(P), and this view was accepted by the majority of Muslims throughout the different parts of the Muslims world, from the time of the tâbicűn. The people of Madinah were reported to have used red dots for vowels - tanwîn, tashdîd, takhfîf, sukűn, wasl and madd and yellow dots for the hamzas in particular. Naqt (placing dots on words in the mushaf), became a separate subject of study with many books written on it. For details please see the article http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Scribal/haleem.html - Qur'anic Orthography: The Written Representation Of The Recited Text Of The Qur'an.










Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 January 2009 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
there is a lot in common between us as to how you believe about God's mercy and forgivenss. Then there are some very basic things we differ upon greatly.
In your long post above there is a small line that I want you to confirm for me, you said about Trinity:
"They are all separate, yet they are all equal....they ARE God."
Do you stand behind that statement of yours, and give me only two quotes from the Bible to support that claim of yours.
Thanks.
Hasan
 
 
 
Hasan,
 
Now you have talked to me long enough to know that I stand behind all my statements regarding my beliefs, my faith.  Here is one Scripture verse from I John 5-7:
 
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
 
 
And in Second Corinthians 13:14, I offer you this verse, Hasan:
 
 
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
 
Here we have the grace of the Son, the love of the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit.  Are these three different God's? Are love, grace, and communion three different items? No. Love, grace, and communion are one element in three stages: love is the source, grace is the expression of love, and communion is the transmission of this love in grace. Likewise, Father God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one God expressed in three Persons: Father God is the source, Christ is the expression of God, and the Holy Spirit is the transmission bringing God in Christ into man. So these are two verses which I stand firmly by in my belief of the Holy Trinity......ONE GOD in three stages.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
 
 
Patty,
you are right I have known you and your belief by now.
Unfortunately, any of your claim has not been able to establish yet.
If you look at my question, it was to your claim, " yet they are all equal" 
In your reply you did not give a quote that shows that they are all equal.
Please quote an appropriate verse.
Hasan
 
Hasan,
 
I think I have given you more than enough evidence to show that the Father, the Son (Word), and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD.  Three separate individuals who come together to form the Holy Trinity, the Godhead.  It says as much in the two verses I offered you, when the verse in I John says "AND THESE THREE ARE ONE"....ONE GOD, HASAN.  Being one Triune God certainly makes them equal.
 
Have a good day,
Patty
 
Patty,
on this quote you said: "Bieng one truine God certaily makes them equal."
Now your asumption contradicts this folowing verse:
"  ...for my Father is greater them I"
this is what Jesus claimed according to John 14:28
 
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 09 January 2009 at 1:08am
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

No, you are wrong, Robin.  With all due respect, you, like many other non-Catholics incorrectly believe we pray to saints and the Holy Mother of God.  That is NOT SO.  We ask their help for many problems/situations in life.  It is the same as asking a dear friend or relative to "please pray for me."  Nothing more, nothing less.  Mary is in Heaven, very close to our Lord, as are the saints.  We believe they are so close to God, and if we ask them to pray for us too, we are greatly increasing our hope of having our problems, whatever they may be, solved.  You should read a good Catechism because you are woefully lacking in your knowledge of what true, devoted Catholics really believe.  This is not uncommon, but it is very sad!  I mean no disrespect or harshness toward you....but I must speak up when I see my religion being misrepresented.  I trust you understand.

God's Peace,

Patty

 
I do not think I am wrong as my wife and her family were cathloics before she became a Christian so I think I know I am talking about!
 
Mary is the cataechism:-
 
 
The 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' p.221
"When the course of her (Mary) earthly life was finished, [she] was taken body and soul into heavenly glory, and was exulted by the Lord as Queen over all things".

Ishtar is symbolised

WORSHIPPERS FELL TO THE WORSHIP OF ISHTAR

Judges 10:6 ; 2 Kings 23:13:- Ishtar is called in the Bible ASTORETH, she was symbolised by a Cow. King Reoboam's introduction of Calf worship in Israel was a great sin in Jehovah's eyes, 1 Kings 12:28-30. (it-1 p. 975)

Jerimiah 7:18 " Queen of the Heavens," (Just like mary); 2 Kings 23:5 "Signs of the Zodiac.

Jehovah's condemnation of Astoreth/Ishtar & Astrology, King Josiah cleans out false worship.

The star VENUS, which is the ruling planet of the Zodiac sign Taurus the Bull. (Venus=Ishtar, Myths of Babylon & Assyria by D.A.Mac Kenzie p.?) The whole Zodiac belt was called The Girdle Of Ishtar (Women's Mysteries by Harding p.163)

This to is Idol worship.

 



Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 09 January 2009 at 9:46am
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

No, you are wrong, Robin.  With all due respect, you, like many other non-Catholics incorrectly believe we pray to saints and the Holy Mother of God.  That is NOT SO.  We ask their help for many problems/situations in life.  It is the same as asking a dear friend or relative to "please pray for me."  Nothing more, nothing less.  Mary is in Heaven, very close to our Lord, as are the saints.  We believe they are so close to God, and if we ask them to pray for us too, we are greatly increasing our hope of having our problems, whatever they may be, solved.  You should read a good Catechism because you are woefully lacking in your knowledge of what true, devoted Catholics really believe.  This is not uncommon, but it is very sad!  I mean no disrespect or harshness toward you....but I must speak up when I see my religion being misrepresented.  I trust you understand.

God's Peace,

Patty

 
I do not think I am wrong as my wife and her family were cathloics before she became a Christian so I think I know I am talking about!
 
Mary is the cataechism:-
 
 
The 'Catechism of the Catholic Church' p.221
"When the course of her (Mary) earthly life was finished, [she] was taken body and soul into heavenly glory, and was exulted by the Lord as Queen over all things".

Ishtar is symbolised

WORSHIPPERS FELL TO THE WORSHIP OF ISHTAR

Judges 10:6 ; 2 Kings 23:13:- Ishtar is called in the Bible ASTORETH, she was symbolised by a Cow. King Reoboam's introduction of Calf worship in Israel was a great sin in Jehovah's eyes, 1 Kings 12:28-30. (it-1 p. 975)

Jerimiah 7:18 " Queen of the Heavens," (Just like mary); 2 Kings 23:5 "Signs of the Zodiac.

Jehovah's condemnation of Astoreth/Ishtar & Astrology, King Josiah cleans out false worship.

The star VENUS, which is the ruling planet of the Zodiac sign Taurus the Bull. (Venus=Ishtar, Myths of Babylon & Assyria by D.A.Mac Kenzie p.?) The whole Zodiac belt was called The Girdle Of Ishtar (Women's Mysteries by Harding p.163)

This to is Idol worship.

 

 
I object to your sentence above stating your wife was a Catholic before she became a Christian. lolol  Catholics were the first Christians and still are very devout Christians of the Catholic Church.
 
Only in the OT did people worship idols, as far as what you are talking about.  They were not Christians, they were pagans.  In the NT after the coming of Jesus that was done away with. 
 
With all due respect, Robin, for the seventh time, no, Catholics do not worship idols, Mary included.  You are most wrong on this issue.  I have many times explained to you that we honor and revere her as the Mother of Jesus and we ask her to pray for us.  
 
It is very important, I believe, that all people of all religions, faiths, etc., have and show respect for those of a different faith.  I could hammer you religion to death if I wanted to......but why would I do such a thing?  I believe you are sincere in what you believe, just as I believe Muslims are sincere.  I am not here to "change you" or to "make you see the light."  I am here to respectfully discuss our religions and why we believe what we do.  I hope you are here for the same reasons.  I have welcomed many JW's into my home, and we have had some very respectful discussions.  I did not change their mind, nor vice versa....but that was not my reason for inviting them into my home in the first place.  I did so out of respect and because I am sure Jesus Christ would expect me to do so out of brotherly love (love thy neighbor.)
 
Have a good day, Robin.
 
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Mansoor_ali
Date Posted: 18 January 2009 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer



Hasan,
 
Now you have talked to me long enough to know that I stand behind all my statements regarding my beliefs, my faith.  Here is one Scripture verse from I John 5-7:
 
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."


 Response to PattyaMainer

 Here is response to 1 John 57 by BiblicalUnitarian:
  http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=147 - http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=147


Originally posted by PattyaMainer

And in Second Corinthians 13:14, I offer you this verse, Hasan:
 
 
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all."
 
Here we have the grace of the Son, the love of the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit.  Are these three different God's? Are love, grace, and communion three different items? No. Love, grace, and communion are one element in three stages: love is the source, grace is the expression of love, and communion is the transmission of this love in grace. Likewise, Father God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one God expressed in three Persons: Father God is the source, Christ is the expression of God, and the Holy Spirit is the transmission bringing God in Christ into man. So these are two verses which I stand firmly by in my belief of the Holy Trinity......ONE GOD in three stages.
 
God's Peace,
Patty
 
 


 Here is response to 2 Cor.13:14 by BiblicalUnitarian:
  http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=122 - http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=122


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 January 2009 at 9:56am
Patty,
you wrote:
"I realize (and understand why) Muslims are quite intimidated and frightened by this verse in I John.  I will offer this explanation to you:"
 
"Keep dreaming baby"
pardon me Patty, I don't rally use this king of language, but I have lived so long here I could not resist to use this slang I hear often.
Yes, its just in your imagination, a Muslim is never intimidated or frightened by any part of the Bible, if they know the Bible.
After knowing the Bible, a book I repect as sacred to many but full of errors and contradcitions for me and others. How can one be afraid of such a thing.
The Bible has multiple stands on who and what is God.
The Bible contradicts how many sons God has, or who is the only son.
The Bible contradicts how salvation is achieved.
There are many other issues but the obove three are the most important ones, and on all three of them the Bible contradcits.
I understand, how one would be scared to believe in it, but I cannot understand how one would be scared to not believe in it. I leave that judgement to the reader.
 
 
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 January 2009 at 10:08am
Originally posted by honeto

Patty,
you wrote:
"I realize (and understand why) Muslims are quite intimidated and frightened by this verse in I John.  I will offer this explanation to you:"
 
"Keep dreaming baby"
pardon me Patty, I don't rally use this king of language, but I have lived so long here I could not resist to use this slang I hear often.
Yes, its just in your imagination, a Muslim, one who know and serves the One and Only God, is never intimidated or frightened by any part of the Bible, if they know the Bible.
After knowing the Bible, a book I repect as sacred to many but full of errors and contradcitions for me and others. How can one be afraid of such a thing.
The Bible has multiple stands on who and what is God.
The Bible contradicts how many sons God has, or who is the only son.
The Bible contradicts how salvation is achieved.
There are many other issues but the obove three are the most important ones, and on all three of them the Bible contradcits.
I understand, how one would be scared to believe in it, but I cannot understand how one would be scared to not believe in it. I leave that judgement to the reader.
 
 
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: OneWay
Date Posted: 28 January 2009 at 8:26am
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59794&FID=10 - robin
 
Roman Catholics follow tradition they do not follow the bible.  Majority of catholics, including priest do not know the bilbe. 
 
The worship of Jesus is not idolatry.  Jesus is God!
 
I am a bible beleiving christian. 
 
Either you beleive the bible or you don't.
 
The bible is clear Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God, God the Father is God, but the bible says there is only one God. 
 
Therefore God the Father, God the Son and God The  Holy Spirit are one.
 
No one can explain God.  If you could understand God then you would be God.
 
In a billion year we will never comprehend God.  So if you think you can explain God, you are a fool.


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 29 January 2009 at 6:15am
Originally posted by OneWay

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59794&FID=10 - robin
 
Roman Catholics follow tradition they do not follow the bible.  Majority of catholics, including priest do not know the bilbe. 
 
The worship of Jesus is not idolatry.  Jesus is God!
 
I am a bible beleiving christian. 
 
Either you beleive the bible or you don't.
 
The bible is clear Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God, God the Father is God, but the bible says there is only one God. 
 
Therefore God the Father, God the Son and God The  Holy Spirit are one.
 
No one can explain God.  If you could understand God then you would be God.
 
In a billion year we will never comprehend God.  So if you think you can explain God, you are a fool.
 
My Dear One Way,
 
You are another perfect example of one who has been told so many "myths" about the Roman Catholic Church, and devout Catholics.  I pity your ignorance, as it is very widespread among Protestants and is not completely your fault.  Although it would serve you well to research and learn what you are saying before spreading more deceptions.  Here is what Catholics truly believe....and yes, it is a bit lengthy.  It may take five or ten minutes to read it, but if you want to be truthful and knowledgeable in your posts which reach virtually every country in the world, I would think that you, as a Christian, would take the time to read and absorb it.
 

Do Catholics follow the Bible?

Catholics have used the Scriptures for their faith for as long as they have existed. The Bible has not always existed in its current form. In fact, it was not put together as a compiled work until well into the 4th century!

However, some people, particularly non-Catholics, feel that the Bible is the only thing that should guide their Christian faith even though the Christian faith existed before the Scriptures and was originally transmitted orally and through tradition.

Catholics believe that the Bible was written by God and by human authors. Here's a quote from the NAB footnotes on 2 Timothy 3:16-17:

"In this classic reference to inspiration, God is its principal author, with the writer as the human collaborator. Thus the scriptures are the word of God in human language. See also 2 Peter 1:20-21."

Scripture alone?

Sola Scriptura simply means "Scripture (or Bible) alone." It was one of the battlecries of the Reformation. It's not something evil, it's just something not completely correct. Today, "Bible alone" is usually meant that the Bible, all 66 books (in the non-Catholic Bibles), is the be-all, end-all, rule of faith for all Christian doctrine and practice.

It is a composite of holy Scripture that all doctrines of Christianity should be compared against. If a matter of faith or morals is anti-Biblical then that is a bad sign.

Unfortunately, Sola Scriptura or Bible alone is nowhere to be found in the Bible! If this were to be true, according to Sola Scriptura, then this statement would have to appear somewhere in the Bible in one form or another implicit or explicit. In fact it is anti-Biblical!

A common claim in support of Sola Scriptura is the reference of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 which says:

"All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work."

Let's break that down.

  1. All scripture is inspired by God
    • We know that God's truth stands the test of time and all subsequent Scripture must be inspired by God as well. But, the important thing to keep in mind is that this verse does not say that Scripture is the only thing inspired by God.
  2. All scripture...is useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction...(and the list goes on).
    • I emphasized the word "useful" for a reason. Notice how it says "useful" and not something like "the only thing" or "the only means". In other words, scripture is helpful, it is a resource, an aid (add your own synonym here). This verse, nor the word "useful", nor its synonyms imply that it is the only rule of faith. It says that it is something useful for one's faith.
  3. ...so that one who belongs to God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
    • Meaning that Scripture is a good tool for learning to live out the Gospel.

By carefully studying this verse it is clear to see that it does not say that the Bible alone is our sole rule of faith. If one is able to produce other Biblical evidence that the Bible implicitly or explicitly says that it is the sole rule of faith please http://www.aboutcatholics.com/faith_beliefs/bible_alone/contact/ - contact me .

Then what is our guiding principle?

So, what does the Bible say is the rule of faith or the foundation of truth?

Not one single thing is our guiding principle or rule of faith; it is a combination of what we have done in the past and what was handed on to us (called Tradition) and the Bible. In order to find out what the foundation of truth is we only need to go back a few pages to 1 Timothy 3:15:

"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

1 Timothy 3:15 explains that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. "The pillar and foundation of truth" refers only to "the church" in that sentence. Some will contest that it depends on one's definition of "church." That is a valid argument, but is why it works under any of the accepted definitions of church.

One argument against is that "the church is not a building, it is just the believers." Well, it is correct, but only in a particular sense. No, the church is not just a building and the Catholic Church clearly recognizes that. In fact there is no one, single Catholic church building, it is an amalgam churches worldwide that recognize appointed authorities just like in the time of the apostles!

Jesus appointed specific people, 12 to be exact, to carry out his mission. Even though Jesus has many, many followers, he called out 12 specific indivuduals to guide his flock. Even in Jesus' time there was a structured church. In fact the church could not exist if Jesus had not been around to start it himself and he did, but he left it in the hands of Peter (Mt 16:13-19).

So, we see that there was a church, with a specific structure of leaders that were called by God to lead the church. This is the Catholic definition of church.

Now, if the church is founded upon the leaders then it is safe to say that "the church" can also mean "the leaders" or "the one's with teaching authority" called the Magisterium.

Another way of looking at it is that the pillar and foundation of truth is the Magisterium, since they are the ones with the teaching authority (Mt 16:19, 18:18) commisioned by Jesus Christ himself. Jesus handed us the church, not the Bible or Scripture.

The Bible is not the sole rule of faith, but it is the people called and commissioned by God and the holy Scriptures along with our Tradition (capital "T"). Neither is separate or greater from the other since both were given to us from God.

Using the Bible to authenticate the Bible

One might ask, "why does this guy quote the Bible when trying to prove the authenticity of the Bible?" Good question! Circular logic will not work. If I say that I am Miss America does that mean I am because I said so? No! I would need another recoginized authority or governing body to declare that I am such before it can be recognized by others.

In other words, something outside the Bible has to verify the sacredness of the Scriptures. What was that sanctioned body? The Catholic Church, the one started by Jesus Christ, the one whose leaders can trace their office back to one of the 12 Apostles. The only reason that any Christian today has reverance for the Bible is because the Catholic Church has said that the books contained therein are sacred Scripture.

Just the simple fact that we revere Scripture and follow what is contained within is a Tradition of the Catholic Church. Some people follow Catholic teachings and don't even know it!

"Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ," said St. Jerome.

 

In addition the the above information regarding Catholics studying the Bible, I would like to add the following.  I would doubt that you have ever attended a mass, but let me assure you that the Bible is read three times during the mass.  There are two scripture readings, and one reading by the priest from one of the Holy Gospels.  He then offers his sermon, called a Homily, which is usually related to what he has just read in the Gospel.  Oh, Catholics have regular bible studies in each others home and in "Sunday School" rooms in the church.  We meditate and pray over the Bible verses we are studying....and most of the time the Bible Study is LED BY OUR PRIEST!!!!!! 

I thought you might also like to know that Catholic priests attend college and then seminary for over 12 years before they are ordained into the priesthood.  They must know every word of the Bible.  You really need to hold your tongue until you know what you are speaking about.  I have many friends who are Protestant ministers (I am not prejudiced toward anyone's religion...I only am disgusted by ignorance), and these ministers have, at the most, 4 years of post high school education in theology.  This is not to put them down in any manner, they are for the most part fine Christian preachers, but to make an honest comparison in the matter of knowledge of scriptures and theology, since you made the comment that Catholic priests do not know or follow Holy Scripture.  You have quite obviously never known a priest or attended a mass.  I have gone to every church to observe first hand what transpires, including Jewish temples.  I would not want to spew lies or inaccuracies when speaking about any religion, and I am very careful not to do so.  If I have offended anyone's religion here, I humbly apologize.
 
May God Grant You Wisdom,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 03 February 2009 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by OneWay

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59794&FID=10 - robin
 
Roman Catholics follow tradition they do not follow the bible.  Majority of catholics, including priest do not know the bilbe. 
 
The worship of Jesus is not idolatry.  Jesus is God!
 
I am a bible beleiving christian. 
 
Either you beleive the bible or you don't.
 
The bible is clear Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God, God the Father is God, but the bible says there is only one God. 
 
Therefore God the Father, God the Son and God The  Holy Spirit are one.
 
No one can explain God.  If you could understand God then you would be God.
 
In a billion year we will never comprehend God.  So if you think you can explain God, you are a fool.
 
True that we can never understand all about God based on our limitations. But should we ignore facts, logic and reasoning? I don't think so.
God is One, and what else can describe it better than that?
 
You say Bible says that Jesus is God, but what about when the same Bible quotes Jesus himself declare that he has a God, or that God is greater than him.
Why we not consider this quote as serious as the other ones? or not accept the facts?
Here are a few quotes from the Bible stating Jesus to be God's servant, and Jesus having a God. We all agree that God does not have a God, but we know that according to the Bible Jesus has a God. 
 

Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Ephesians 1:17"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ."
 
John 20:17 ".....but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
 
John 14:28 "...for my Father is greater than I."
 
For my friends that insist that Jesus was God on earth, these quotes are more than enough proof and my response from their trusted source (apart from logic and reasoning and Quran's correction) that he was not god, in fact he has a God like all of us to whom he served as a humble servant.
Hasan
 
 
 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 08 February 2009 at 8:56am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by OneWay

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59794&FID=10 - robin
 
Roman Catholics follow tradition they do not follow the bible.  Majority of catholics, including priest do not know the bilbe. 
 
The worship of Jesus is not idolatry.  Jesus is God!
 
I am a bible beleiving christian. 
 
Either you beleive the bible or you don't.
 
The bible is clear Jesus is God, The Holy Spirit is God, God the Father is God, but the bible says there is only one God. 
 
Therefore God the Father, God the Son and God The  Holy Spirit are one.
 
No one can explain God.  If you could understand God then you would be God.
 
In a billion year we will never comprehend God.  So if you think you can explain God, you are a fool.
 
True that we can never understand all about God based on our limitations. But should we ignore facts, logic and reasoning? I don't think so.
God is One, and what else can describe it better than that?
 
You say Bible says that Jesus is God, but what about when the same Bible quotes Jesus himself declare that he has a God, or that God is greater than him.
Why we not consider this quote as serious as the other ones? or not accept the facts?
Here are a few quotes from the Bible stating Jesus to be God's servant, and Jesus having a God. We all agree that God does not have a God, but we know that according to the Bible Jesus has a God. 
 

Acts 3:13 "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus."

Ephesians 1:17"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ."
 
John 20:17 ".....but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
 
John 14:28 "...for my Father is greater than I."
 
For my friends that insist that Jesus was God on earth, these quotes are more than enough proof and my response from their trusted source (apart from logic and reasoning and Quran's correction) that he was not god, in fact he has a God like all of us to whom he served as a humble servant.
Hasan
 
 
 
 
I disagree with a lot of what you say Hasan, but I must admit that you are right here.
 
robin


Posted By: OneWay
Date Posted: 11 February 2009 at 9:30am

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60139&FID=10 - PattyaMainer

 

“You are another perfect example of one who has been told so many "myths" about the Roman Catholic Church, and devout Catholics.  I pity your ignorance, as it is very widespread among Protestants and is not completely your fault.  Although it would serve you well to research and learn what you are saying before spreading more deceptions.  Here is what Catholics truly believe....and yes, it is a bit lengthy.  It may take five or ten minutes to read it, but if you want to be truthful and knowledgeable in your posts which reach virtually every country in the world, I would think that you, as a Christian, would take the time to read and absorb it.”

 

 

 

I think you need to research before you try and correct someone.

 
      There was very little controversy over the canon of the Old Testament. Hebrew believers recognized God’s messengers, and accepted their writings as inspired of God. While there was undeniably some debate in regards to the Old Testament canon, by 250 A.D. there was nearly universal agreement on the canon of Hebrew Scripture. The only issue that remained was the http://www.gotquestions.org/apocrypha-deuterocanonical.html - Apocrypha , with some debate and discussion continuing today. The vast majority of Hebrew scholars considered the Apocrypha to be good historical and religious documents, but not on the same level as the Hebrew Scriptures.

       For the New Testament, the process of the recognition and collection began in the first centuries of the Christian church. Very early on, some of the New Testament books were being recognized. Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the Old Testament ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Timothy%205.18 - 1 Timothy 5:18 ; see also http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Deuteronomy%2025.4 - Deuteronomy 25:4 and http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Luke%2010.7 - Luke 10:7 ). Peter recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/2%20Peter%203.15-16 - 2 Peter 3:15-16 ). Some of the books of the New Testament were being circulated among the churches ( http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Colossians%204.16 - Colossians 4:16 ; http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Thessalonians%205.27 - 1 Thessalonians 5:27 ). Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the Apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John.

The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in (A.D. 170). The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. In A.D. 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with the Apocrypha) and the 27 books of the New Testament were to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.

1.   Calling the Priests "Father" is forbidden

 

FACT: Catholics are taught to call their priest, "Father", as a religious title of respect. Christians in the first century never called their leaders, "father". This first happened hundreds of years later.

Question #1: Does Jesus approve of calling the leaders of the church, "Father"?

Answer: Matthew 23:9 o YES NO o

"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Matthew 23:9

2. Praying repetitive words using Rosary beads is forbidden.

FACT: Catholics pray repetitive words with rosary Beads that were first invented in 1090 AD, by "Peter the Hermit" and made popular by St. Dominic in 1208 AD. Catholics believe that Mary appeared to St. Dominic in 1208 AD, at the church of Prouille and revealed the Rosary Beads to him. From this time, Catholics prayed 15 sets of 10 consecutive "hail Marys" in a row (150 times), in the Rosary. However, in 2003 AD, Pope John Paul added a new set of Mysteries, so now it is 20 sets of 10 "Hail Marys", (200 times in the Rosary, in total.) Catholics will vainly appeal to Psalm 136 that alternates the same phrase 26 times with 26 different blessings God gives us. It is not 26 in a row as with the rosary! This is also a song, not a prayer. Revelation 4:8 has "angels singing" not "men praying".

 

Historical note: Roman Catholics borrowed the idea of praying with beads from the pagan religions who were already using them hundreds of years before: In 456 AD, Hindus are thought to have introduced the concept of praying with beads to the world. The earliest reference to a rosary (boberkhas) is in their "Jain Canon" (456 AD) These boberkhas had various numbers of beads 6,9,12,18,36 (any sub-multiple of 108) Islam (610 AD) uses a rosary of 99 beads, one for each of the names of God. Buddhists have 108 prayer beads on the string. The Rosary is of pagan origin and no Christian prior to 1000 AD used beads to pray.

Question #1: Did Jesus forbid repetitive prayer using Rosary Beads?

Answer: Matthew 6:7 o YES NO o

"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. Matthew 6:7

 

2.   Virgin Mary

 

FACT: Roman Catholics are taught the virgin Mary never had sex after Jesus was born and that Jesus had no brothers and sisters. The Pope teaches that Mary is the mediator between God and man. Catholics also engage in more praising of Mary than Jesus Christ himself and actually pray to her to have their prayers answered. Rosary Beads graphically represent how Roman Catholics heap 10 times more praise upon Mary than God himself. Of the 59 total beads of the Rosary, 53 beads are "Hail Marys", but only 6 beads are "Our Father". The Rosary most often ends with a "Hail, Holy Queen" prayer to Mary, not God.

Question #1: Did Jesus have brothers and sisters from the womb of Mary?

Answer: Matthew 13:55-56 o YES NO o

"Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" Matthew 13:55-56 

Question #2: Did Joseph begin normal sexual relations with his wife after Jesus was born?

Answer: Matthew 1:24-25 o YES NO o

"And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus." Matthew 1:24-25

Question #3: The Bible says there is only one mediator between God and man. Is mary that one mediator?

Answer: 1 Timothy 2:5 o YES NO o

"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5

Question #4: Catholics engage in endless praise of Mary. When a woman praised Jesus’ mother to his face, did Jesus commend encourage this woman to continue praising Mary?

Answer: Luke 11:27-28 o YES NO o

"While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."" Luke 11:27-28

 

4. Every Christian drinks of the communion cup

FACT: Although Roman Catholics are permitted to eat the bread (body) of the Lord’s Supper, they are generally not allowed to drink the wine (blood) of the Lord’s Supper, as any Catholic knows from his own experience from attending Mass. (Except on rare special occasions.) The laity (the people in the pews) are withheld the cup of the Lord and it is usually reserved for church leaders only. Yes there are denominations within the Roman Catholic "communion" where some RC sects actually offer the juice, but most Mass attending Catholics know they rarely drink the cup of wine.

Historical note: Two early popes condemned withholding the cup, (Pope Leo I [died 461 AD] and Pope Gelasius [died 496 Ad]; but in the 12th century the practice was begun, and formally approved by the Catholic Council of Constance in 1415 AD. So for the first 1000 years, the Catholics in the Pews drink the cup, then the Pope changed this apostolic tradition.

Question #1: Did Christ and the apostle Paul command that every Christian should drink of the communion cup?

Answer: Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 11:23-28 o YES NO o

To the disciples: "Drink from it, all of you" Matthew 26:27

To the whole church in Corinth: "in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup." 1 Corinthians 11:28

"While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins." Matthew 26:26-28

"For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup." 1 Corinthians 11:23-28

 

5. All Christians are saints

FACT: The Pope says only very special dead Catholic people qualify to be called "saints". For example, Pope John Paul II could not make Mother Teresa a saint (official canonization) until after she was dead. The average Catholic in the pew is never called a "saint" dead or alive! In fact if a pew dwelling Catholic started calling himself a "saint", he would be rebuked by the parish priest!

Question #1: Was every living Christian in the church in Corinth called a saint?

Answer: 1 Corinthians 1:2 o YES NO o

"To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours" 1 Corinthians 1:2

Question #2: Did Paul write the book of Ephesians to dead saints?

Answer: Ephesians 1:1 o YES NO o

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus" Ephesians 1:1

Question #3: Was the average Christian in the church at Philippi called a saint, in distinction to bishops and deacons?

Answer: Philippians 1:1 o YES NO o

"Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons" Philippians 1:1

Question #4: Was every Christian living in Rome called to be a saint?

Answer: Romans 1:7 o YES NO o

"to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 1:7

6. All Christians are priests

FACT: The Pope decided to reserve the title of "priest" to worn by church leaders only. The average pew dwelling Catholic never refer to themselves as "priests". In fact if a lay Catholic started calling himself a "priest", he would be rebuked by "the parish Priest"!

Question #1: Did Jesus make all Christians to be priests, including the average member in the pew?

Answer: 1 Peter 2:5,9; Revelation 1:6; 5:10 o YES NO o

"you (all Christians) also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. " 1 Peter 2:5

"But you (all Christians) are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; " 1 Peter 2:9

"Jesus has made us (all Christians) to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen." Revelation 1:6

"You have made them (all Christians) to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." Revelation 5:10

7. Bishops must be Married.

FACT: In 1079 AD celibacy was first enforced for priests and bishops by Pope Gregory VII. Before this time, they were permitted to marry.

Question #1: Does the Bible teach that a bishop (overseer) must be married AND ALSO have children as one of the conditions of being qualified to be a bishop?

Answer: 1 Timothy 3:2-5 o YES NO o

"A bishop, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?)" 1 Timothy 3:2-5

Question #2: In the very next chapter of the Bible after bishops are told they must be married with children, does the Holy Spirit warn that "forbidding to marry" is a "doctrine of demons"?

Answer: 1 Timothy 4:1-3 o YES NO o

"But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth." 1 Timothy 4:1-3

8. Peter was married

FACT: Most Catholics believe that Apostle Peter was the first Pope and was not married. As one Roman Catholic leader said, "if Peter had a wife when he first met Jesus, he got rid of her quick!"

Question #1: Did Peter have a wife?

Answer: Mark 1:30 o YES NO o

"Now Simon’s mother-in-law was lying sick with a fever; and immediately they spoke to Jesus about her." Mark 1:30

Question #2: Did Paul say all the apostles including Peter had a right to be married?

Answer: 1 Corinthians 9:5 o YES NO o

"Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?" 1 Corinthians 9:5

9. Latin Mass forbidden

FACT: For over 1000 years, the Roman Catholic church often conducts their mass services entirely in the Latin language, when no one sitting in the pews understands the Latin language. Most Roman Catholics who have sat through such a Latin Mass service have wondered what is going on. It was not until 1965 AD that the Pope finally understood 1 Cor 14:19 and allowed masses to conducted in the same vernacular language of the local people. (English in North America)

Question #1: Is Latin Mass forbidden in the Bible when no one in the pews understands Latin?

Answer: 1 Corinthians 14:19 o YES NO o

 

10. Worshipping idols, icons and images violates the 2nd commandment.

FACT: Catholics regularly bow down to idols, icons and images of Jesus, Mary and the apostles, kissing the feet of the statues and praying to them.

Historical note: The Pope deleted the 2nd of the 10 commandments so they could use statues & images in worship. They split the 10th commandment on coveting into two commandments so they could still have 10 in number. Don’t believe this? Look at the list of 10 commandments published by the Roman Catholic church! The issue here is not how the Ten Commandments are numbered, rather the issue is that most published lists of the 10 commandments do not include the words, "you shall not for yourself an idol". Open your Catholic Bible and look for yourself!

Question #1: Does the 2nd commandment approve of bowing down and kissing idols?

Answer: Exodus 20:4 o YES NO o

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them." Exodus 20:4-5

 

11. Every Christian can understand the Bible by merely read it.

FACT: Catholics are taught that only the priests can understand the Bible and the common man in the pew cannot understand the Bible without the priests help.

Question #1: Do the scriptures say that when anyone reads the Bible, they can understand for themselves?

Answer: Ephesians 3:4 o YES NO o

"By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ" Ephesians 3:4

12. Human tradition and man made doctrine is apostasy

FACT: The Pope teaches that he can change what is in the Bible if he wants.

Question #1: Did Jesus say it was OK for man to change what the word of God teaches for man-made Catholic doctrine?

Answer: Mark 7:7-9 o YES NO o

"‘But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’ "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition." Mark 7:7-9

Conclusion: How the Catholic church views the Bible

Below are the kinds of replies you can expect from a Roman Catholic priest if you ask him about the contents of this Bible study.

  1. Yes I know Matthew 23:9, seems to condemn calling me "Father", but you are not able to understand the Bible like I do.
  2. Yes I know is appears like Jesus condemned the repetitive prayer of the Rosary beads in Matthew 6:7, but Mary appeared to St. Dominic in 1208 AD and revealed to him the Rosary Beads herself!
  3. Yes Matthew 13:55-56 seems to indicate that Jesus had brothers and sisters, but these were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage or just cousins.
  4. Yes, I agree that 1 Timothy 2:5 sounds like Jesus is the only mediator between god and man, but the Pope decided she was indeed also a mediator between God and man

·  Yes Christ and Paul did command every Christian to drink of the communion cup in Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 11:23-28. And Yes I know that two early popes condemned withholding the cup, (Pope Leo I [died 461 AD] and Pope Gelasius [died 496 Ad]; but in the 12th century the practice was begun, and formally approved by the Catholic Council of Constance in 1415 AD.

·  Was every living Christian in the church in Corinth called a saint?

·  Yes I know that in the Bible (1 Corinthians 1:2; Ephesians 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Romans 1:7) every Christian was a saint and every saint was a Christian. Yes I agree, the Bible uses the word saint as interchangeably synonymous with being a Christian, but the Roman Catholic church has the power to change the Bible.

·  Yes I know that in the apostolic church (1 Peter 2:5,9; Revelation 1:6; 5:10), every Christian was a priest and the two terms are used interchangeably synonymous with being a Christian, but the Roman Catholic church decided that only leaders should be called priests.

·  Yes I know that the Bible appears to teach that 1 Timothy 3:2-5 bishops must be married with believing children, but you can’t even understand the Bible anyway, why do you ask? Just trust me because only Catholic priests can understand the Bible.

·  Yes I have read 1 Timothy 4:1-3, and is seems to condemn forbidding the marriage of Catholic priests, but the Pope decided that unmarried men are more holy than married men.

·  Yes I know that Mark 1:30; 1 Corinthians 9:5 say that Peter had a wife 23 years after Christ died on the cross (53 AD), but Pope Gregory VII decided in 1079 AD from that time onward, that church leaders cannot marry.

·  Yes I know that sitting through a Latin Mass service can be very boring for many Catholics in the pews. And yes I know that 1 Corinthians 14:19 condemns conducting a church service in a language the average member does not understand, but the Pope decided that Latin sounds real holy and has both historical and mystical qualities.

·  Yes I know that the Roman Catholic church deleted the 2nd commandment (Exodus 20:4) in order to hid from the masses God’s condemnation of bowing down and kissing images of Mary and Peter, but Mary revealed herself to us in a vision.

·  Yes I know Ephesians 3:4 plainly seems to say that when you read the Bible by yourself, you can have the same insight that the apostle Paul had into spiritual things, but we Catholic priests cannot teach all our false doctrines that contradict the Bible unless we convince you that you can’t understand the Bible unless the priest helps you.

·  Yes I know that human traditions that contradict the Bible are condemned in Mark 7:7-9, but all the doctrines that contradict the Bible which the Pope through up were revealed to him directly by Christ and therefore, although they contradict the Bible, they are divinely approved by Christ himself.

·  You really shouldn’t be reading the Bible anyway. And while we are talking about it, what else do you want me to teach you about what the Bible says?

 

 



Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 11 February 2009 at 5:41pm
Oneway,
 
I won't even bother with "quoting" the garbage you just posted.  Suffice it to say that you are woefully misinformed regarding the Catholic Church.  I'll touch on just two of your misconceptions.
 
1.  Catholics receive the Sacred Blood as well as the Body at each mass.  Go observe a mass sometime if you honestly want to know the truth.  I have gone to all Protestant churches to see what transpires.....so don't spread malicious lies about something you so obviously do not know.
 
2.  Catholics have bible studies with, and WITHOUT, a priest.  We have many bible studies in our homes and in the church with one of the parishioners reading and everyone discusses the scriptures we read.  You are so miserably misinformed.
 
As for the rest of your lies and distortions, I feel nothing but pity for you. There are so many lies I don't have the time to correct them.....and I think you are either Pentacostal or Apostolic, so it would be a waste of my time to even attempt.  I have visited those churches on several occasions.  In summary, no, Catholics do not worship anyone but God, the Trinity. IF you are Apostolic I know you do not believe in the Trinity, but in "Jesus Only", therefore you're likely online name "OneWay."  We honor them, and we believe they are in Heaven with God.  We ask them to pray for us....we DON'T pray to them.  Who in the name of all that's holy are YOU to tell ME I shouldn't be reading the Bible????  YOU are disgraceful, ignorant of the Catholic faith, and very, very sadly mistaken.  I hope no one takes you seriously!


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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."



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