Print Page | Close Window

syahadah

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: General Islamic Matter
Forum Discription: Discuss Islamic matters/issues that not covered by other sub catagories
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12471
Printed Date: 02 October 2014 at 9:48am


Topic: syahadah
Posted By: dian
Subject: syahadah
Date Posted: 14 May 2008 at 11:19pm
Assalammu 'alaykum warahmatullah wabarakatuh,

Is it obligatory for children born in islamic family to recite syahadat at the time when they are baligh in order to be muslim? I read different versions on this topic which is quite confusing. please help....

jazakumullah khairan katsira,

dian



Replies:
Posted By: Rukkaiyah
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 2:46am

Asalamu Alaikum Warahmatulahi Wabarakatohuh

If a person is born in a muslim family they have the adhaan recited into their ear within the first few weeks of their life. As far as I know this makes them automatically muslim.



Posted By: lovesakeenah
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 1:58am
Wa alaykum salaam waarahamatullah wabarakatuh
 
I just wanted to add that everyone is born in a state of 'Islam'.(or Fitrah).It is later on that they change their status to any other form.So,that's why we refer to people coming into Islam after having practised another religion as'reverts'(not converts) because they are reverting back to their original status as Muslims.But if they leave for another religion,we can call them'converts'.
 


-------------
"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".


Posted By: dian
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 5:22am
Jazakillah for your reply ukhty,
it has really shed light on my understanding of the matter. For you to know i'm a born muslima but have just begun seriously learning islam these past few years. To make the matter worse, in the place that i live there are so many islamic organizations, each claims to practise the truest islamic values as practised by the prophet SAW. Yet, each of these organization has quite different perception regarding basic principles of our deen, one of which is syahadah. some say the same as you say, but the other say that islam identity is different from nationality. when your parents are American, you will automatically be American but, so they say, it's not the case with islam identity. Groups holding this view also say that the pillars of islam are different from the pillars of iman. The former requires physical actions, like sholat through hajj, different from the latter which is just a matter of belief.
That is why, the confusing part of groups holding the "anomalous" opinion regarding syahadah is their statement about the practice of syahadah itself. If converts declare it (in front of some witnesses from Muslim community) as a symbol of entering islam, then shouldn't those born in islamic family do the same thing as a declaration that they accept islamic rules and therefore become a member of islamic family.
I used to hold the view but alhamduLLILLAH, HE has showed me the true view and erased all doubt and confusion inside. i am just worried about my friends here who were influenced by the view and still strongly hold it. I hope that Allah will give them His Hidayah and open their mind to accept the truth.
 
Jazakillah khairan katsira


Posted By: lovesakeenah
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 4:03am
AS-salaaam alaykum warahamatullah wabarakatuh
 
Dear sis.Dian,I understand how you must feel knowing that your friends are been led astray with the same people who are supposed to be guiding them.Astagfirullah!But you should not give up on them,share your knowledge with them when you get the opportunity.And believe me,I know what it feels like to believe that certain people know better because they have claimed so&people see them that way.While I was learning the basics of Islam,I blindly emulated certain practices of the Organisation I belonged to,with the believe that they were,righteous and that everything they did was according to the Qur'an and Sunnah of Rasulullah(s.a.w)But alliamdulillah,they showed me their true colour&my eyes were opened.I realized any believer would not be discriminatory towards their fellow Muslims nor rebuke them when they are supposed to guide them.
People who find themselves in influential positions sometimes misuse it.May Allah forgive us all and grant us hidyah.


-------------
"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 25 May 2008 at 1:42pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

asslamu alaikum

Sister member_profile.asp?PF=57223&FID=88 - lovesakeenah can you please tell me who translates the word Fitrah to mean Islam, i know many muslims claim this but i have never seen an actual source.

-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: lovesakeenah
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 2:43am
As-salaam alaykum warahamatullah wabarakatuh bro. rami
 
Un fortunately,I cannot tell you who"translated it" because I do not know.But I have read from a few Books where it was used as such.
I do not recall the title of most of it now,astagfirullah but it was either"The Making of a Muslim Child" by Al-Munajjid Saleh" or some other Literature I can't recall now.It was about Child naming&rites in Islam.Like you rightly mentioned,"many Muslims" use this word".And so far from what I have learnt&read(until now),it was never a sibject of controversy.Meanwhile,I am not verse in Arabic to begin explaining the 'root' or generative word for"Fitra".Wallahu an'lam..
If you do find anything on the Translator,please do share with us!


-------------
"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 2:55am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

wa alaikum assalam

my understanding is that the fitrah we are born on refers to the Oath allah made all souls take before entering this world and that is to believe in only him it has nothing to do with submitting your will to him he didnt make us take an oath to do that although we are "asked" to.

I dont agree with this translation at all and i havnt seen the word used this way by any classical scholar, it may seem like im being trivial sister but if we keep diluting and changing things like this we will loose many more words.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: lovesakeenah
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 5:38am
As-salaam alaykum warahaamtullah wabarakatuh
 
According to your statement,"my understanding is that the fitrah we are born on refers to the Oath allah made all souls take before entering this world and that is to believe in only him......."
This sounds like"Tawheed" to me.And if this is Monotheism,what is Islam?


-------------
"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 11:02am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

wa alaikum assalam

Yes essentially this Fitra is Tawheed its also the reason why Allah in the Quran states that the sin of shirk is the only he can never forgive. If you look at history all nations, tribes, people of all lands had this instinct in them that a God existed regardless of whether or not they had 50 Gods or just 1. You could say the ones with the pure hearts searched for it and didnt simply accept what they where raised on. For example Saydinah Ibrahim, Rasul Allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam], Abu Bakr, salman al farsi...anyway essentially all humans know enough in themselves that a higher being exists.

if Fitrah is like an instinct to believe in god or rather how upright humans know in themselves that monotheism is the truth Islam the religion is the particulars of how Allah wants us to live our lives. He didnt take an oath from all souls to pray 5 times a day, fast, pay 2.5% zakkat...etc.

If you are referring to what the word Islam with out context means then it means submitting your will to him, his will is known through his Deen not by fitrah, either way you can not interchange Fitrah with Islam becouse Islam is more than Tawheed. submitting your will is a choice we each make its not binding on us and why only believing in him alone is.

here is a short clip [which i found recently] explaining the meaning and quoting the entire hadith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0trElMCi4o



-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 7:02pm
As'Salamu Alaikum,
 
I was surprised to read brother Rami, that Fitrah is the Oath taken by all the souls. Though i do agree at few points of yours but not the whole post. This made me to study the following which am pasting below. Kindly, highlight the points you disagree with. And yes brother Rami, as i cannot open Youtubes, so cud not view it.
 
Extracted with slight modifications from "Fitrah: The Islamic Concept of Human Nature" 1996 TA-HA Publishers Ltd.
 
In attempting a definition of fitrah, I give an exposition of its linguistic and religious meaning. The religious understanding of fitrah is based on the positive interpretation of fitrah
 
Suffice it to say that linguistic and positive religious explanations have one thing in common: both define fitrah as an inborn natural predisposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings. What makes our religious understanding positive is that it not only acknowledges fitrah as a natural predisposition, but also one which is inclined towards right action and submission to Allah, the One God.
 
1. The Linguistic Meaning of Fitrah
Every new-born child is born in a state of fitrah. Then his parents make him a Jew, a Christian or a Magian, just as an animal is born intact. Do you observe any among them that are maimed (at birth)?[1]
The word fitrah comes from the Arabic radicals fa ta ra, the verbal noun being fatrun. The root action means, he clove, split, slit, rent or cracked it. Note the usage of the first form fatarahu (He created it); that is, He caused it to exist, newly, for the first time. Thus fatirus-samwt, the Originator or Creator of the heavens.
 
The second form, fattara(hu) (verbal noun taftir), denotes repetition, muchness and frequency of the root action which means, as we saw, he clove, split, slit, rent or cracked it. Futira (ala shay) is equivalent to tubia, which is the passive form of tabaa (verbal noun tabun) he sealed, stamped, printed or impressed, being a synonym of khatama, he sealed. Ar-Rghib says that it means the impression of a thing with the engraving of the signet and stamp; thus tabaallhu al qalbih Allh sealed his heart, that is the unbelievers heart. Similarly, khatama alaihi, pertains to the natural constitution which denotes a quality of the soul; either by creation or habit, but more especially the creation. Also, taba allhu al amr Allh created (him) with a disposition to the affair, state or condition. Likewise, tubia ala shay he was created with a disposition to a thing which is synonymous with jubila or futira. Tabun originally a verbal noun signifies nature or an inborn disposition. Its synonyms are sajjiyah, jibillah, khalqah, tabah and mizj. These are names for innate natural disposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings. Thus, fitrah, having the same meaning as tabun, linguistically means an inborn natural disposition.
 
The term fitrah literally means, creation; the causing a thing to exist for the first time; and the natural constitution with which a child is created in his mothers womb. It is said that is the meaning in the Qur'an (30:29), and in the central, opening hadith.
 
2. The Religious Meaning of Fitrah
 
In the context of the hadith, according to Ab Haytham, fitrah means to be born either prosperous or unprosperous [in relation to the soul]:
And if his parents are Jews, they make him a Jew, with respect to his worldly situation; [i.e. with respect to inheritance, etc.] and if Christians, they make him a Christian, with respect to that situation; and if Magians, they make him a Magian, with respect to that situation; his situation is the same as that of his parents until his tongue speaks for him; but if he dies before his attaining to the age when sexual maturity begins to show itself, he dies in a state of conformity to his preceding natural constitution, with which he was created in his mothers womb.
 
Fitrah is also associated with Islam and being born as a Muslim. This is when fitrah is viewed in respect to Shahadah that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah which makes a person a Muslim. Fitrah, in this sense, is the faculty, which He has created in mankind, of knowing Allah. It is the natural constitution with which the child is created in his mothers womb, whereby he is capable of accepting the religion of truth..That fitrah refers to religion is further shown in a tradition in which it is related that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, taught a man to repeat certain words when lying down to sleep, and said: Then if you die that same night, you die upon the fitrah (in the true dn). Also by the saying: The paring of the nails is of the fitrah (i.e. of the dn).
 
This meaning is affirmed by srah 30 yah 30:
 
Set your face to the dn in sincerity (hanfan) which is Allah's fitrah (the nature made by Allah) upon which He created mankind (fatran-ns). There is no changing the creation of Allah. That is the right dn but most people know not.
 
Apparently Ab Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, cited this verse after the central hadith which means that, in his view, the fitrah of the hadith is the same fitrah in the ayah. The ayah refers to the fitrah as good because the right religion is being described as Allah's fitrah. Thus according to Ab Hurairah, fitrah is associated with the dn of Islam.
Since Allah's fitrah is engraved upon the human soul, mankind is born in a state in which tawhd is integral. Since tawhd is intrinsic to mans fitrah, the prophets, peace be upon them, came to remind man of it, and to guide him to that which is integral to his original nature. The ayah describes a fitrah of primordial faith which Allah Himself implanted in human nature. It implies Islam's essential message of submission to the will of Allah as taught as practised by the prophets.
 
The Laws or the sharahs, which the prophets were sent with, are guiding lights to the essential faith in Allah which is created in every human being. Furthermore, since this faith comes from Allah, it naturally follows that only laws capable of guiding man back to it must also come from Allah, hence Islam is also called dn al-fitrah, the religion of human nature.
That every child is born in this pure state of fitrah is also supported by the following hadith concerning the polytheists:
 
It is related that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said that he saw in a vision an old man at the front of a large tree and around him were children and in the vision he was told that the old man was Ibrihim and that the children who were around him were the children who, before attaining the age of discretion, had died. At this, some Muslims had asked hum: "And the children of the polytheists too, Messenger of Allah?" The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, replied: "The children of the polytheists as well."
 
Being with Ibrhm meant being in Paradise, and this includes children of polytheistic families. It is clear, from the Qur'an and from the hadith, that every child is born with a pure nature, as a Muslim. Islam recognises that all children, whether born of believing or unbelieving parents, go to Paradise if they die before attaining the age of discretion.
 
Imm Nawaw defined fitrah as the unconfirmed state which exists until the individual consciously acknowledges his belief. Hence, if a child were to die before he attains discretion he would be on of the inmates of Paradise. This view applies to the children of polytheists as well, and is supported by the above-quoted hadith. The legal implication of this hadith is that all children are born pure, sinless and predisposed to belief in one God; moreover they are of the inmates of Paradise; however, if their parents are non-Muslims, the religion of their parents will be applicable to them in this world.
 
Islam is also called dn al-fitrah, the religion of human nature, because its laws and its teachings are in full harmony with the normal and the natural inclination of the human fitrah to believe in and submit to the Creator. Like the word al-Islam, the word dn also means, according to Lane, obedience and submission, among other meanings.
 
Allah states:
And who is better in obedience (in dn) than he who resigns himself to Allah? (Qur'an 4:125)
 
There shall be no compulsion in obedience (dn). (Qurn 2:256)
 
Ad-dn implies religion in the widest sense of the word, embracing both the practical aspects of the acts of worship and ordinary transactions of life, and the teachings of religion; and it is a name for that whereby one serves Allah.
 
Truly, the religion (dn) in the sight of Allah is al-Islam. (Qurn 3:19)
And, according to Lane, it means particularly the religion of al-Islam. The synonyms of ad-dn are ash-Shariah (the law), tawhd (Oneness of Allah) and wara (caution). Ad-dn also comes from the verb dana, meaning he had indebted. This is significant, according to al-Attas, because man is indebted to Allah for his existence and sustenance. The believer will realise that his spirit acknowledged Allah in pre-existence, and that the debt that he must return is his self, and this can be done by service and submission to Allah. This return implies a return to mans inherent spiritual nature, to his fitrah. The one who submits to Allah is called abd (a slave) of Allah, and his service is called ibdah (slavehood or conscious submission to the will of Allah). By worshipping Allah in such a manner, man in fulfilling the purpose of his creation and existence.
 
I have not created the Jinn and man but that they should serve Me (li yabudn). (Qur'an 51:56)
 
Such worship or submission does not entail loss of freedom, for, freedom is to act as ones true nature demands; that is, as ones fitrah demands. Al-Attas succinctly explains the connection between submission, fitrah and dn as follows:
 
When we say that such a man is fulfilling the purpose for his creation and existence, it is obvious that that mans obligation to serve God is felt by him as normal because it comes as a natural inclination on the mans part to do so. This natural tendency in man to serve and worship God is also referred to as dn, here in the religious context it has a more specific signification of the natural state of being called fitrah. In fact dn also means fitrah. Fitrah is the pattern according to which God has created all things Submission to it brings harmony, for it means realisation of what is inherent in ones true nature; opposition to it brings discord, for it means realisation of what is extraneous to ones true nature.
 
 
 


-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 7:04pm

3. Fitrah and Human Responsibility

 Man is distinguished from the rest of the creation because he has been endowed with intellect (aql) and free-will (irdah). The intellect enables him to discern right from wrong. He can use these faculties to complement his fitrah and to please Allah or to be untrue to it and displease Allah. The choice is his. The prophets and Divine revelation are external sources of guidance to guide the intellect and will of man. The Qur'an declares that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, enjoins the right and lawful things (marf) and forbids the wrong and unlawful things (munkar). Man is responsible for his actions and accountable to Allah for every atom of right and wrong that he does. It is in this sense of accountability that guides man to act in accordance with the Divine will. It empowers him to struggle against the wrong-doing of his lower self (nafs) as well as the negative influences of the social circumstances. The central hadith makes plain that it is the social circumstances after the birth of the child that causes the individual to diverge from fitrah. Hence if someone follows an aberrant path it is not because of any innate wrong within his nature, but because of the emergence of the lower self or nafs after birth, and negative effects in the social circumstances.

The concept of fitrah as original goodness, in my view, does not merely connote a passive receptivity to good and right action, but an active inclination and a natural innate predisposition to know Allah, to submit to Him and to do right. This is mans natural tendency in the absence of contrary factors. Although all children are born in a state of fitrah, the influence of the environment is decisive; parents may influence the religion of the child by making him a Christian, Jew or Magian. If there are no adverse influences, then the child will continuously manifest his fitrah as his true nature. Since many infants are born with gross physical deformities, the maiming referred to in this hadith is not meant in the physical sense; it means that all children are born spiritually pure, in a state of fitrah. The reference to animals born intact in the central hadith should be viewed as an analogy to illustrate the parallel spiritual wholeness of children at birth.

It is precisely because of mans free-will and intellect that he is able to overcome the negative influences of the environment and attain to the highest level of psycho-spiritual development, an-nafs al-mutmainnah, the self made tranquil. At this level, his inner and outer being, his soul and body, are able to conform to the requirements of his fitrah and the dictates of the Shariah. He actualises his fitrah, and attains psycho-spiritual integration and inner peace.

 

4. Alienation from Fitrah

The central hadith suggest that circumstantial (i.e. parental and other social) influences cause man to change and become alienated from his fitrah. However in Qur'an 30:30 (There is no changing in the creation of Allah.) suggests that fitrah is universal unchanging given of the human constitution. This meaning is consistent with the linguistic definition of fitrah as innate natural disposition which cannot change, and which exists at birth in all human beings. The synthesis of the meanings of both statements is that although fitrah remains a universal unchanging given of the human constitution, people may, because of the elements of intellect and free-will, decide and choose to conduct themselves in a wrong or unlawful manner. All the children of Adam, including those who deviated from the path of tawhd, possessed fitrah. Civilisations which have been condemned and destroyed by Allah because of their practice of polytheism (shirk) and unbelief (kufr), possessed fitrah. Fitrah is a universal and immutable given of the metaphysical human constitution, and as a rule, cannot be corrupted or altered. No wrong action can pollute the Divine spirit [maintainers note: i.e. spirit created by God] which Allah has blown into man (Qur'an 15:29) despite the many generations of polytheism and unbelief. For example, a generation whose forefathers were mushrikn (those who practice shirk) does not possess a fitrah of a lesser quality than a generation of believers. However, both shirk and kufr represent the antithesis of fitrah by undermining its very object and raison detre; kufr is a rejection of the oneness of Allah (tawhd). When a individual commits shirk or kufr he denies his own nature. Fitrah which is integral to mans spirit (rh) was created by Allah so that he man acknowledge Him as the Lord Who has power over all things. Tawhd is intrinsic to mans fitrah because Allah in His infinite wisdom intended for man to know Him as the One God. This is why man was able to acknowledge his Lord before his existence on earth, that is, in pre-existence state.

The function of the prophets and Divine revelation is not only to remind man about that which he already knows (that is, tawhd), but also to teach him that which he does not yet know (that is, Shariah). Man already knows tawhd because of the pre-existent fitrah as well as his earthly unchanging fitrah. The prophets have come only to remind man of tawhd; the choice is left to the individual, as suggested in the following verse:

Surely, this is a reminder; so whoever wills, let him take a way to his Lord. (Qur'an 76:29).

Knowledge of the Divinely revealed laws, the methodology of worship and devotion, etc. are acquired by man from Shariah which is based on Divine revelation and the teachings of the prophets. Since every individual is endowed with the innate knowledge of tawhd, he is held accountable for his belief in Allah precisely because of his fitrah. Not every soul, however, will be held accountable for not practicing Shariah because knowledge of Shariah is acquired only by those who received the message of the Divine revelations and the teachings of he prophets.

The distinction between the inborn knowledge of tawhd (which includes the knowledge of right and wrong) and the acquired knowledge of Shariah (which includes what is lawful and unlawful) is significant because of the legal implications of each. The mushrik, one who violates tawhd, will not be pardoned for his polytheism, irrespective of whether he received the message of Islam or not. On the other hand, the practice of Shariah is only required from the Muslim while the non-Muslim (who did not receive the message of Islam) is not expected to fulfil this obligation. An individual may be forgiven for not practising the Shariah if he had not received the message of Islam, but he will not be forgiven for rejecting tawhd. The Muslim will thus be held responsible for tawhd and Shariah. Dr. Faruqi Ahmad Dasuqi, who holds this view, adds that the hunafa of past centuries had acknowledged tawhd and will not be held accountable for Shariah.

Apart from the chosen prophets, I venture to say that there is no difference between the fitrah of individual men: all men are endowed with the same or an equal fitrah. The believer is in harmony with his fitrah because his instincts are directed in service of Allah, but the unbeliever is alienated from his fitrah because his instincts are in the service of everything else besides Allah. The reason for mans destruction of himself and his environment is that he has become alienated. Nevertheless, he can overcome this estrangement his will and intellect with the Divine will and knowledge. It is mans recourse to Islam which will enable him to effect such a reconciliation.



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 27 May 2008 at 7:26am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

member_profile.asp?PF=54219&FID=88 - seekshidayath

Just so you know the reaction of surprise means you are astounded that the person said or did something becouse prior to this you could not believe that they could say or do such a thing. So unless you literally believed that i could never say something wrong your reaction of surprise makes no sence and frankly leads me to believe this wasnt your genuine reaction.

that Fitrah is the Oath taken by all the souls.


I think you are taking what i said to extremes and beyond what the words i said could possibly mean. Does it make sense to you that Fitrah IS [literaly] the oath, no what i rather said was that it is its cause or the reason why it is there in us even the article you quote equates fitrah with the oneness of Allah but over extends its meaning by implication ["Since Allah's fitrah is engraved upon the human soul [and what caused tawheed to be engraved], mankind is born in a state in which tawhd is integral."].

The term fitrah literally means, creation; the causing a thing to exist for the first time; and the natural constitution with which a child is created in his mothers womb. It is said that is the meaning in the Qur'an (30:29), and in the central, opening hadith.


030.029
YUSUFALI: Nay, the wrong-doers (merely) follow their own lusts, being devoid of knowledge. But who will guide those whom Allah leaves astray? To them there will be no helpers.

So basically what the author is saying is that a child is born a "wrong doer" and his lust is there in his natural disposition i.e fitrah which he is following.....so essentially we DONT have free will and are doomed to hell from infancy. well that's what the literal meaning of these words are anyway so please correct me if i understood them wrong becouse they are so outlandish i am suprised anyone would say this.

Fitrah is also associated with Islam and being born as a Muslim. This is when fitrah is viewed in respect to Shahadah


You cant be a muslim without the shahadah he acknowledges this plainly but goes on to make a conclusion that he hasn't established and is not even remotely connected to what the word means. Humans and jinn are created with the Fitrah of La illaha illah llah only not "Lah illaha illah llah muhamad rasul allah".

So when and how has fitrah ever been viewed "in respect" to the shahadah?

which makes a person a Muslim. Fitrah, in this sense, is the faculty, which He has created in mankind, of knowing Allah.


Where is "Muhamad Rasul allah" in any of this?

This meaning is affirmed by srah 30 yah 30:

No its not.

030.030
YUSUFALI: So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the standard Religion: but most among mankind understand not.

This has nothing to do with the Fitrah of man being "La illaha illah llah muhamad rasul allah", all the verse is referring to is that man is created in a clean state upright and with the ability to lead a good life but the parents psychologically scar the child for life with there baggage. What does the Quran say about the mushriks on Qiyamah they will say we were following what our forefathers where following [not exact wording] meaning they didn't challenge there parents and blindly followed them.

Apparently Ab Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, cited this verse after the central hadith which means that, in his view, the fitrah of the hadith is the same fitrah in the ayah. The ayah refers to the fitrah as good because the right religion is being described as Allah's fitrah. Thus according to Ab Hurairah, fitrah is associated with the dn of Islam.


you cant draw that conclusion from what Abu Hurairah said, yes they refer to each other but neither refers to Islam the religion being the Fitrah the author just made that up.

It implies Islam's essential message of submission to the will of Allah as taught as practised by the prophets.

Even here he admits it only refers to Tawheed and not Islam as a whole, clearly he is over extending the meaning of the word fitrah by what he presumes it implies.

Islam is also called dn al-fitrah, the religion of human nature, because its laws and its teachings are in full harmony with the normal and the natural inclination of the human fitrah to believe in and submit to the Creator.


how can the laws of islam be in harmony with the fitrah of man [from the beginning of time] every time allah brought a new religion he changed those laws. Did he change man to conform to the laws NO he changed the laws to conform to mans changing nature.

So how can all humans from the time of Adam be born muslims when each had there own religion which conformed to the fitrah that the humans of the time where born on.

I mean this only in the general sense as no amount of purifying our heart [so we know our pure nature clearly] will ever lead me to realise that my fitrah is to pay 2.5% zakkat, the reality is all these laws are commandments from Allah we are not expected to know them specifically in our hearts.

"Each child is born in a state of "Fitrah", then his parents make him a Jew, Christian or a Zoroastrian, the way an animal gives birth to a normal offspring. Have you noticed any that were born mutilated?" [according to the shaykh in the video] the full hadith [he gives his sources] states then the sahabah asked rasul allah what if the child dies in its infancy or once it is small the prophet replied when allah created them allah knew best what they where going to do.

The shaykh goes on to say; so if the word fitrah means they where all muslims there was no need for the sahabah to ask what happens if they do die in that state.


as i said the author is over extending the meaning of the word to the point where it contradicts other things in the religion.




-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: lovesakeenah
Date Posted: 27 May 2008 at 9:17am
As-salaam alaykum warahamatullah wabarakatuh
 
Jazakallahu seekshidayath for keeping this topic going&most especially for getting"facts and figures".
Meanwhile,bro,rami...I would have even replied,not with these facts of course as I haven't been able to do the research I intended to.I had some personal stuff to take care of.And,I must confess I haven't read this post because I have problem reading for long on screen.Masha Allahu,I'll have it printed out from work.And I wasn't able to listen to that Video from youtube but hope to try it later.I just saw the picture,no sounds as the system I used then didn't have a speaker( I was at work,actually).
 
So,insha Allahu,I'd get back to you once I've read&digested it.
 
May Allah increase our Ilm.
BYW bro. rami.Am not going to drag this with you as am not in the habit of doing that.I personally believe Allah has given us brains and minds to reason-freewill.So,humans don't always have to agree with everything.Even when presented with facts (referring to life in general).And what I do personally is state my point (s),it is not my duty to convince or persuade people to accept what I have stated.So,let's keep learning masha Allahu.May Allah guide us from straying away from the purpose of this dicsuss.


-------------
"I have conviction that Allah has power over everything.Verily!Allah's knowledge includes and encompasses everything".


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 27 May 2008 at 7:30pm
As'Salamu Alaikum,
 
Brother Rami, i was surprised to know that fitrah is Oath taken by all souls. Since it was totally new and quite astonishing for me. Be it from any other person too, my reaction would have been same. Anyways, discussions of  my emotions are unimportant Smile. I  really wish to add up to my knowledge, from the discussions esp with  you.
 
Yes, i took the meaning in the literal sense.  JazakAllah for correcting my understanding.
 
And i think that verse 30 : 29 was misquoted in this article. It is no where connected to the subject. Lust there means, {refering prior to the ayah of it i.e 30 :28 too} , lust in there means worship of idols and own Gods.
 
Insha-Allah, brother, shall answer the rest of the part later. Am to leave now.  I think you got confused between deen and shariah.
 
 
 


-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 27 May 2008 at 9:36pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

If you haven't read the ahadith about allah making all souls take this oath before man was created [which i assumed was general knowledge] then i misunderstood your post, Allahu Allam.

just to preempt what you might say,

I think you got confused between deen and shariah.


the word deen itself does not mean religion, shariah or islam it has a much wider meanig like "a way", "path taken", "the way you live your life" or "lead your life".

http://islam1.org/khutub/Defn__of_Deen_&_Islam.htm - http://islam1.org/khutub/Defn__of_Deen_&_Islam.htm [i dont agree with everything btw]

your article states it is synonimous with shariah but i dont agree [as the article above states and other islamic sources] since shariah limits its meaning to what the word shariah itself means.

so when allah says

Truly, the religion [din] in the sight of Allah is al-Islam. (Qurn 3:19)

and

srah 30 yah 30:
 
Set your face to the dn in sincerity (hanfan) which is Allah's fitrah (the nature made by Allah) upon which He created mankind (fatran-ns). There is no changing the creation of Allah. That is the right dn but most people know not.

in the first quote the full meaning of the verse is narrowed down [or lost] to what the word religion means [which shariah is a part of]. In the second quote the word deen in no way is reffering to religion the meaning is much deeper [although the translation is not wrong it isnt entirely correct or rather giving us the full meaning] Yusuf Ali's translation is much more accurate [but also doesnt convey the full meaning of deen in relation to fitrah, due to the nature of the english language],

030.030
YUSUFALI: So set thou thy face steadily and truly to the Faith: (establish) Allah's handiwork according to the pattern on which He has made mankind: no change (let there be) in the work (wrought) by Allah: that is the standard Religion: but most among mankind understand not.

the word deen is used twice the first time he translates it as faith the second time as religion, while pickthal and shakir translate it both times as religion.

PICKTHAL: So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not -
SHAKIR: Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know--

In the end the words Deen, Shariah, Islam, Muslim and Fitrah all have different meanings and refer to different things Fitrah doesn't mean Islam just like Islam doesnt mean Muslim or shariah doesn't mean Deen.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 28 May 2008 at 2:07am

Brother Rami said :

 Humans and jinn are created with the Fitrah of La illaha illah llah only not "Lah illaha illah llah muhamad rasul allah".

So when and how has fitrah ever been viewed "in respect" to the shahadah?

Where is "Muhamad Rasul allah" in any of this?


La ilaha ill Allah is indeed part of fitrah, But Mohammed ur RasoolUllah is subjected to knowledge only. Muhammad ur Rasool Allah is being attested.If a person never heard about Prophet Mohammed PBUH but did not commit shirk also, he is  considered  as  a true believer.

There is a hadith that  belief in Prophet is subjected to knowledge. For instance -  the Sabians. They , they did not have a specific religion that they followed and enforced, because they remained living according to their Fitrah (instinctual nature). 

 
This has nothing to do with the Fitrah of man being "La illaha illah llah muhamad rasul allah", all the verse is referring to is that man is created in a clean state upright and with the ability to lead a good life

Tafseer of this verse says that, Allah says: `so set your face and persevere in the religion which Allah has prescribed for you, the worship of Allah Alone, the religion of Ibrahim, to which Allah has guided you and which He has perfected for you with the utmost perfection. In this manner, you will also adhere to the sound Fitrah with which He created His creation.' Allah created His creation to recognize Him and know His Tawhid, and that there is no God except Him, { which is again a shahadah - La ilaha illal lah }

And according to a Hadith, Allah said,"I created my servants Hunafa (i.e., monotheists), then the Shayatin misled them from their religion.'' We will see in the Hadiths that Allah created His creation with the Fitrah of Islam, then among some of them there emerged corrupt religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism..

how can the laws of islam be in harmony with the fitrah of man [from the beginning of time] every time allah brought a new religion he changed those laws. Did he change man to conform to the laws NO he changed the laws to conform to mans changing nature.

So how can all humans from the time of Adam be born muslims when each had there own religion which conformed to the fitrah that the humans of the time where born on.

I mean this only in the general sense as no amount of purifying our heart [so we know our pure nature clearly] will ever lead me to realise that my fitrah is to pay 2.5% zakkat, the reality is all these laws are commandments from Allah we are not expected to know them specifically in our hearts.

Here i thought you got confused with deen and shariah. Certainlly they are different terms. La ilaha ilala is part of fitrah. In a verse Allah says that a witness comes to him {man}  from Allah.  That witness is the pure, perfect and magnificent legislation that Allah revealed to the Prophets. These legislations were finalized with the legislation (Shari`ah) of Muhammad . The believer has the natural disposition that bears witness to (the truth of) the general legislation, and accepts that specific laws are taken from the general legislation. The Fitrah accepts the Shari`ah and believes in it .

And finally, i do not have much deeper knowledge of the words Deen, Shariah, Islam, Muslim and Fitrah as you possess . Yes, i do agree that they are different terms, at the same time they are inter-related.



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 28 May 2008 at 7:33pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
 
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheemIf you haven't read the ahadith about allah making all souls take this oath before man was created [which i assumed was general knowledge] then i misunderstood your post, Allahu Allam.

 
It is writtein in "Lives of Man" by Imam al-Haddad, that Allah took an oath from all mankind after they were once born from Adam (alaihe salam).  And since he had been talking about 5 lives of man, this first time birth of entire mankind all at one time is a phenomenon which is not the same as our birth which we know of commonly - it is something to be understood in a similar light as the saying of our prophet (sallallahu alaihe wasallam) "I was a prophet when Adam was between man and clay"
 
Can you confirm where it has been said that the oath was taken before man was created?


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 28 May 2008 at 10:08pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

it is from memory sister, i maybe wrong but i dont think i am since i also remember a shaykh once explaining that the tawheed aspect of our fitrah was placed there by Allah to help us remember this oath in life and fulfill it. I think there is a mistranslation of the work since the hadith clearly states he brought all the souls together, unless there are multiple contradictory ahadith on the mattter?

i did a Quick google search i couldn't find the specific hadith but the auther of this post at least thinks the hadith says what i said....allahu allam.
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:n38hWH8c7YEJ:darulislam.info/Article130.html+allah+gatherd+all+souls+oath&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=au&client=firefox-a -
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:n38hWH8c7YEJ:darulislam.info/Article130.html+allah+gatherd+all+souls+oath&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=au&client=firefox-a


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 9:43pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
My apologies to you Rami for such a late response to this post. Always intended to bring the quotes for your reference, but something would keep me from doing so.
First of all Jazak Allahu khair for posting the chached link, it made things a lot simpler.
 
Not sure if the real hadith is quoted in the article or it is being re-itterated.
 
The copy of "Lives of Man"that I have is tranlated by Mustafa al-Badawi and publisher is Fons Vitae, Quilliam Press - if this info bears any authenticity ...
 
quote pg 7: The first life begins with God's creation of Adam, upon whom be peace, and the entrusting of his progeniture (dhurriya) to his blessed loins, both the people of the right and those of the left ....
 
Then God brought this progeniture out from Adam's loins all at once, to take the covenant (mithaq) that they recognised [His] Unity and Lordship. This event which happened at Numan, a valley near Araafat, is referred to in His saying (Exalted is He!) :
 
When your lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify of themselves [He said:] 'Am I not your Lord?' They said: 'Yea! we testify! [That was] lest you should say on the Day of Rising: 'Of this we were unaware' [7:172]
 
The verse following this referes to it also. It has been related in Tradition that when He took the covenant, He recorded it in writing and fed it to the Black Stone, and that this was the meaning of the saying of those who touch the Black Stone during the circumbulation of the Ancient House: 'O God! This is believing in you, fulfilling our pledge to You, and declaring the truth of Your Record'
 
Because of these things, there can be no doubt that the progeniture was possessed of existence, hearing and speech; this, however was at a degree or dimension of existence other than that of this world ..... end of quote
 
So I think for a simple mind it suffices to say that the oath was taken from the mankind before they came to the life of this world, which is a life of accountability. However from the above it appears the oath was taken after their creation.
 
Also, the oath here is referred to  in parenthesis by the word mithaq, as opposed to fitrah that was being discussed earlier.
 
Strong possibilty exists that the apparent cotroversy is only due to my feable understanding of the two resources.
 
 And Allah knows best.  
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 10:20pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I dont think it makes a difference to this discussion sister since the ulumah agree that man has an instinctual beliefe in God which is fitrah.

I think your quote makes more sense since saydinah adam had direct ccontact with Allah and it would not have been nesisary for him to take such an oath but i dont think allah gave us bodies he simply gathered the souls [as i remember the hadith] becouse this would indicate we had already died beffore being born if we had bodies.

Allahu allam


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 11:50pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
 
 
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I dont think it makes a difference to this discussion sister since the ulumah agree that man has an instinctual beliefe in God which is fitrah.

I think your quote makes more sense since saydinah adam had direct ccontact with Allah and it would not have been nesisary for him to take such an oath but i dont think allah gave us bodies he simply gathered the souls [as i remember the hadith] becouse this would indicate we had already died beffore being born if we had bodies.

Allahu allam
 
Not necessary that we had died once. One strong reason why I don't think is indicated here in the title of the book : "LIVES of Man". When the book goes into discussing life and then death, then life after death, and later the eternal life - it has very carefully organised the episodes of lives our soul passes through. It does not mention two deaths.
 
Another point which is mentioned in the quote ... Because of these things, there can be no doubt that the progeniture was possessed of existence, hearing and speech; this however, was at degree or dimension of existence other than that of this world. There are many levels of existence, as is well known by those people who know existence.
 
And there is more on the subject which I am reluctant to quote because I am myself not sure of its meanings.
 
Though honestly speaking there are occasions when I am stuck without a teacher explaining the ideas expressed in this book. It is by no means easy on the intellect. So don't let it bother you too much. If am able to find better explainations in future, perhaps we can have a fresh discussion. Khair inshAllah.
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Chrysalis
Date Posted: 13 June 2008 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by dian

Assalammu 'alaykum warahmatullah wabarakatuh,

Is it obligatory for children born in islamic family to recite syahadat at the time when they are baligh in order to be muslim? I read different versions on this topic which is quite confusing. please help....

jazakumullah khairan katsira,

dian
 
As'sallamualaikum sister. . .
 
According to what we read in the Qur'an, Hadith and the Prophet's practise. . . .there is no such "obligation" /ritual for a muslim child to recite the shahadah at the onset of Puberty.
 
To other readers: Do not get me wrong. I am not at alll saying that Shahadah itself is not obligatory. I am referring to the misconception that there is such a ritual as reciting Shahdah when one reaches puberty.
 
The Prophet never asked the muslims to recite Shahadah when they reach puberty. This suggests that the child was not muslim before? Bcz such a declaration suggests that now he is. . .
 
Sister Dian, whenever you are confused about the different 'versions' of Islam that you hear from different groups-which you will get. . . the best way to know which is "right" or according to Islamic injunctions to ask them for a reference from either the Qur'an, Sahih (Authentic) Hadith or Sunnah. If they quote/refer from the Hadith, Qur'an or Sunnah . . .then your obligation is to look it up (if the person u hear it frm is not to be trusted, or u doubt him/her - so best to confirm later) . . . and if the person seems/is reliable enough then you can accept thier authentic quotation. Needless to say, if the person cannot support thier theory with an Islamic refernce, one should not believe it immediatley, rather ONLY believe stuff that can be verified (the Prophet mentioned something in a hadith which I can mention later)
 
The reason why there is no such ritual is because a muslim-born child will/should already have the knowledge that There is no god but Allah, who is ONE, and that Muhammad is the last messenger of Allah. If a non-muslim family converts, then the child should also recite Shahadah, no need to wait for puberty.
    Also, islamically speaking. . . a muslim child should be given adequate/minimum islamic knowledge as a child. This includes some Qur'anic verses (if not reading the Qur;an with translation atleast once) as well as necessary fiqh/islamic injunctions such as Taharat (ablution/cleansing) etc It is also a strongly recommended that the muslim child should know the 6 Kalimahs, which includes aspects of Shahadah as well, as well as atleast some Surahs of the Qur'an so he/she can use it in Prayers.
 
Hence, by bieng born muslim, and having even minimum Islamic knoweldge, the child will already have knowledge of Shahadah. Having said that, there is no obligatory ritual to officially recite shahadah at puberty.


-------------
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."



Print Page | Close Window