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13th question about islam

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islam for non-Muslims
Forum Discription: Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12433
Printed Date: 20 April 2014 at 8:26pm


Topic: 13th question about islam
Posted By: Tariq
Subject: 13th question about islam
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 4:51am


13. EQUALITY OF WITNESSES
Question:

Why are two witnesses who are women, equivalent to only one witness
who is a man ?

Answer:

1. Two female witnesses not always considered equal to one male
witness
There are no less than three verses in the Qur’an which speak about witnesses
without specifying man or woman.

a) While making a will of inheritance, two just persons are required as
witnesses. In Surah Maidah chapter 5 verse 106, the Glorious Qur’an says:

“Oh you who believe! When death approaches any of you, (take)
witnesses among yourself when making bequests,– two just persons
of your own (brotherhood) or others from outside if you are journeying
through the earth and the chance of death befalls you.” [Al-Qur’an 5:106]

b) Two persons endued with justice in case of talaq.

“And take for witness two persons from among you, endued with
justice, and establish the evidence (as) before Allah”. [Al-Qur’an 65:2]

c) Four witnesses are required in case of charge against chaste women

“And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce
not four witnesses (to support their allegatios) flog them with eighty
stripes; and reject their evidence even after: for such men are wicked
transgressors”

[Al-Qur’an 24:4]

2. Two female witnesses is equal to male witness only in financial
transaction
It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only
one male witness. It is true only in certain cases. There are about five verses
in the Qur’an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There
is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one
male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 282. This is the
longest verse in the Qur’an and deals with financial transactions. It says:

“Oh! ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions
involving future obligation in a fixed period of time reduce them to
writing and get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not
two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses
so that if one of them errs the other can remind her.” [Al-Qur’an 2:282]

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This verse of the Qur’an deals only with financial transactions. In such cases,
it is advised to make an agreement in writing between the parties and take two
witnesses, preferably both of which should be men only. In case you cannot find
two men, then one man and two women would suffice.

For instance, suppose a person wants to undergo an operation for a particular
ailment. To confirm the treatment, he would prefer taking references from two
qualified surgeons. In case he is unable to find two surgeons, his second option
would be one surgeon and two general practitioners who are plain MBBS
doctors.

Similarly in financial transactions, two men are preferred. Islam expects men to
be the breadwin ners of their families. Since financial responsibility is
shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions
as compared to women. As a second option, the witness can be one man and
two women, so that if one of the women errs the other can remind her. The
Arabic word used in the Qur’an is ‘Tazil’ which means ‘confused’ or ‘to err’.
Many have wrongly translated this word as ‘to forget’. Thus financial
transactions constitute the only case in which two female witnesses are equal
to one male witness.

3. Two female witnesses equal to one male witness even in the case
of murder
However, some scholars are of the opinion that the feminine attitude can also
have an effect on the witness in a murder case. In such circumstances a woman
is more terrified as compared to a man. Due to her emotional condition she can
get confused. Therefore, according to some jurists, even in cases of murder,
two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness. In all other cases,
one female witness is equivalent to one male witness. In all other cases, one
female witness is equivalent to one male witness.

4. Qur’an clearly specifies that one female witness equal to one male
witness
There are some scholars who are of the opinion that the rule of two female
witnesses equal to one male witness should be applied to all the cases. This
cannot be agreed upon because one particular verse of the Qur’an from Surah
Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male
witness:

“And those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in
support) no evidence but their own - their solitary evidence can be
received.” [Al-Qur’an 24:6]

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5. Solitary witness of Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) is
sufficient for Hadith to be accepted
Ayesha (May Allah be pleased with her) the wife of the beloved Prophet has
narrated no less than 2220 Ahadith which are considered authentic only on her
solitary evidence. This is sufficient proof that one witness of a women can also
be accepted.

Many jurists agree that even one witness of a woman is sufficient for the
sighting of the crescent of the moon. Imagine one woman witness is sufficient
for one of the pillars of Islam, i.e. fasting and the whole Muslim community of
men and women agree and accept her witness! Some jurists say that one
witness is required at the beginning of Ramadaan and two witnesses at the end
of Ramadaan. It makes no difference whether the witnesses are men or women.

6. Female witnesses are preferred in some cases
Some incidents require only female witness and that of a male cannot be
accepted. For instance, in dealing with the problems of women, while giving the
burial bath i.e. ‘ghusl’ to a woman, the witness has to be a woman.

The seeming inequality of male and female witnesses in financial transactions
is not due to any inequality of the sexes in Islam. It is only due to the different
natures and roles of men and women in society as envisaged by Islam.




Replies:
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 6:02pm
In Islam don't there have to be 4 men witnesses to the one rape victim to prove the rape?   In this case the woman's witness carries no weight.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Tariq
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 12:18pm
I begin with name of allah most merciful  and beneficient
 
In islam to prove a rapest either men or women for the punishment of HAD or in arabic حد which literally means boundary but in islamic terminolgy its a punishment which is given to islam in comparison with jewish law of committing adultry, and it is punishment which requires proof for either man or women which is atleast four men for proving that this man or women is eligible for this punishment , Now what about punishment except HAD , It does not mean he or she who has commited  rape will not  be punished without four witness a justice could say put the walll over him for his serious crime put him in celll for whole life and he could be dead
 but according to sunnah of prophet it is not acceptable for  a women no matter how many they are because may they are probabilty that the womens are taking side of female victim or probabaly they are supporting there objectives or may be they want revenge or may be somethhing else ,And in most of the case in sociological life womens are not to be found as helpers or witnesses in locations where rape has occured it is a probability but for an instance if she is a witness she may be scared of or forced to give false statements  as it happens mostly in feudal societies  but in man case same is the situation if man has been a target it also requires four witness  
 
The HAd is a special punishment for man and women in which he or she is grounded and stoned but it requires proof to give this level of punishment but other punishments are still in the hand of JUSTICE or JUDGE
this is deep jurisprudence even most muslims dont tdiferentiate between HAD and other judiciary made punishments


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 16 May 2008 at 8:17am
In Islam don't there have to be 4 men witnesses to the one rape victim to prove the rape?   In this case the woman's witness carries no weight.
 
Four men watching a woman get raped and not doing anything to save her, end up as accomplices to the rape. Rape comes under the Hirabah Laws, ie. Laws for highway,armed robbery,causing corruption in the land; punishable by death. Rape is considered as a woman robbed of her chastity and dignity with physical danger and hence capital punishment.
 
There is a hadith in Abu Dawud, where the Prophet(pbuh) did not consider witnesses for a rape and ordered the perpetrator to be stoned to death.


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Tariq
Date Posted: 16 May 2008 at 3:52pm
Assalam o alaiqum,
Brother i hope you will recieve my message in best of your health.
Actually the matter of hudood laws and their punishments require proofs for giving a punishment of death and stonning to death is among Hadood laws.
The hadith which you have quoted from sunnan abu daoowd is very weak in line of narrator or in arabic dhaeef, which is not acceptable inLaws and obligations of shariah.
This is a big debatic issue why that hadith is not acceptable and what is the condition of weak hadith (the hadith which has transmitters and narrators who are not authentic or appropriate) in narrating.
For that you have to Study Sciences of hadiths, Rules and Principles of Jurisprudence and Biographies and historical books on narrators and transmitters which is among the miracles of islam to be found and preserved till this day.
Alhamdu lillah


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 May 2008 at 3:37pm
I agree Saladin!!-Four men watching a woman get raped and not doing anything to save her, end up as accomplices

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Tariq
Date Posted: 18 May 2008 at 4:19pm
Actually you agreed four men watching a women being raped , and at the same time they caught him as well, no matter how much he raped her more or less the condition will remain the same , and  they brought him to justice to justice made the execution of the rapist either stoning him to death if hes already married person and if not then 70 strokes of hard rope .
If there was one man  the rapist had the chance to run away or beat him in two persons there is also a chance , in three there is also a bit chance and in four it is almost impossible  to escape as well conformatory of the incident.
End of the problem


Posted By: Tariq
Date Posted: 18 May 2008 at 4:23pm

BELIEVER AND SALADIN WHAT IF  A WOMEN ACCUSE BOTH OF RAPING HER AND YOU BOTH DIDNT ACTUALLY DONE IT

SO WHAT WOULD YOU DO WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE PUNISHED WITHOUT PROOF.

THIS IS ALSO A MAIN RESON FOR THE REQUIRMENT OF WITNESS



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 6:17am
The answer is in the forensic evidence and DNA!!!

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 3:20pm
believer,
DNA testing is a new thing what about the rest of the times before??
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Tariq
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 5:44am

This a serious matter to discuss. It requires many proofs. in order to give to the punishment of Rajam(stoning to death) but it does not mean that  he will not be punished , despite of that he could be locked up for whole life , he could be stand behind wall and the wall is made fell upon him, There are numerous punishments which a justice could give instead of rajam which are more worse than rajam.

Rajam is a religious law of punishment in islam as well it was in shariah of Moses peace be upon him as well. For reference you should read Quran chapter 5 verse 45.


Posted By: Tariq
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 5:45am

Dna tests and Forensics are new techniques and as well as there not trustable and authentic because there are propbabilities in having match,

 
1 It could be mistaken and  execution could be given on the false observation,
2 There are chances of bribery , that some use unfair means of making good an evil and evil in to good . Like the media always do in the west about islam by picking up the black sheeps adn show them as a resemblence of islam.
3 The Laws of shariah requires 100 percent witness and authentic proof not just microscopic evidence . Which judge or majistrate cant see it.


Posted By: Tariq
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 5:47am

Dna tests and Forensics are new techniques and as well as there are not trustable and authentic because there are probabilities in having match

 
1 It could be mistaken and  execution could be given on the false observation.
2 There are chances of bribery , that some use unfair means of making good an evil and evil in to good . Like the media always do in the west about islam by picking up the black sheeps adn show them as a resemblence of islam.
3 The Laws of shariah requires 100 percent witness and authentic proof not just microscopic evidence . Which judge or majistrate cant see it.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 6:25am
The man standing by watching to be witness is guilty!

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 2:59am
 Salaam Alaikum Tariq,
 
 I haven't come upon a hadith asserting, that four witnesses are required to prove a rape. Evidence is certainly needed but evidence in the form of four or more witnesses is what i'm skeptical about. What if a woman was raped and there were 1,2 or 3 witnesses or forensics to prove the rape? Would such evidence still be invalid? If its so, then a woman raped and unlucky to not have 4 to testify, will have to forget about justice in this world and all a rapist has to do, to evade punishment is to ensure that not more than 3 witness the act.
 I hope people in the know would clarify this for me. 
 
  


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 3:18am
 There is no pnishment such as stoning for adultry / fornication. The punshment for Zina (adultry / fornication) is 100 lashes only. It is obligatory  (Faradh) and should be carried out in the open air in the presence of many people. (Surah Noor verses 1-2)
 
 Stoning to death is a capital punishment and cannot be carried out unless it is mentioned in the Quran. The stoning to death of the fornicators/ adulterers as mentioned in the Torah is not applicable to Muslims (after the revelation of verses of Surah Noor).
 
 Rape is something different. That may need capital punishment or some other kind of severe punishment. The 100 lashes is only for the wiliing fornicators and adulterers.
 
 There is no secret meaning in the verses 24:1-2 and other verses of Surah Noor.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 5:25am

 There is no pnishment such as stoning for adultry / fornication. The punshment for Zina (adultry / fornication) is 100 lashes only. It is obligatory  (Faradh) and should be carried out in the open air in the presence of many people. (Surah Noor verses 1-2).

 I agree. The quran is clear about that.
 
 Stoning to death is a capital punishment and cannot be carried out unless it is mentioned in the Quran. The stoning to death of the fornicators/ adulterers as mentioned in the Torah is not applicable to Muslims (after the revelation of verses of Surah Noor).
 
 We can see capital punishment for crimes besides Qisas, in the Quran, in this verse.
  "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. (5:33)
 Well, two crimes are mentioned here deserving capital punishment. 1.Making war against Allah and his messenger. 2.Striving after corruption in the land. Zina by a married or unmarried person like once or low key and then repentant, may not deserve capital punishment. Theirs will be the 100 lashes as in verse 24:2. But what if  serial fornicators, rapists, serial rapists, or prostitutes are on the loose, striving for and causing corruption in the land with their lechery, rapes or prostitution, would not these then deserve the punishment mentioned in 5:33, for striving after corruption in the land?
 
 


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 6:04am
Rape is one of the most difficult crimes to prosecute not matter the syastem. It often boils down to "he said, she said." In cases of DNA and forensics and such can prove that sexual activity took place. But the quiestion in social situations is consent. This is different if obvious battery took place as well.  To prove rape case in other circumstances is very difficult.. you are on  a date, at work only.. proof is hard to come by.
 
People get the witness stuff all mixed up. It varies for different type of crimes.
 
As far as financial transactions, one should have things written, but in cases of not, having two women is a safe-gaurd for the women. That is how I look at it. Not that women cannot remember (my memory is better than most people) but that people often try and take advantage of women. Business is typically a "man's world," no matter the culture.  It is best to bring a friend to protect yourself.  This is actually quite coomon sense. I watch some of the ocurtr TV shows and so many people either don't write things down or don't have a witness and thus have a hard time proving their case.
 


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 9:08am
"Rajam is a religious law of punishment in islam as well it was in shariah of Moses peace be upon him as well. For reference you should read Quran chapter 5 verse 45."
 
Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)

5:45 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

Are you saying this Ayat orders stoning? Stoning as a punishment is not found in The Quran.

 



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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt



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