Print Page | Close Window

Revisiting an "Old Issue"

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: General Islamic Matter
Forum Discription: Discuss Islamic matters/issues that not covered by other sub catagories
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12353
Printed Date: 30 July 2014 at 12:19am


Topic: Revisiting an "Old Issue"
Posted By: Israfil
Subject: Revisiting an "Old Issue"
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 10:21pm

Although we have discussed this issue many times on this forum, the trends of intolerence are still a reality in many global communities. It is unfortunate that, with the espousal of praising God with our lips we contradict our spiritual morality by being intolerent of others because of their "difference."

To what am I referring you may wonder?
 
I am referring to homosexuality. there are many individual today who still retain prejudicial biases based upon shared cultural ignorance. Many individuals do not understand how and why members of the same sex find attraction to one another. Although we may disagree with the practice on a religious level in accordance to the faith it is important enough to understand why human beings are so different in this aspect.
 
To dispel some myths:
 
1) Being homosexual is not a disease
 
2) Being homosexual is not a curse
 
3) Being homosexual is not a genetic defect (I'm going against the grain here).
 
4) Being homosexual does not mean you have an oversexual behavior.
 
5) Being homosexual does not mean you are against God.
 
The reason I'm stating these reason here is because I've notice that even today some f our languages have rendered themselves intolerant towards others. I noticed mean unwilling to give other men hugs they do not want to be categorized and labeled as being a "fag" which I might say the latter is an intolerant and inappropriate word to denote homosexuals.
 
We all must understand that our sexual orientation is also facilitated socially, therefore many of us who are attracted to the opposite sex may thank the society we live in that helps us become attracted to the opposite sex. As of now, there is no conclusive evidence that states that we are inheritently heterossexual save certain studys on hormonal studies by biologist on attraction. but even if social conditioning was not the case for our attraction for the opposite sex can anyone us explain word for word why we are attracted to the opposite sex that is not commonly found in culture? Surely a woman cannot say she is attracted solely to men because she likes men. this is vague, therefore can each of us explain why we are attracted to the opposite sex? Of course not. Just like we cannot explain how we love someone. Certain behaviors simply cannot be explained.
 
On a similar note, many homosexuals derive their explanations from this reality. Even in an heterosexual environment, many homosexuals still cling to "internal" feelings they themselves cannot even explain. So how do we explain this? By helping them fight against a possible biological urge? By praying for them? By telling them to repent to God? Isn't it a bigger crime for one to deny one's trueself? Or does this mean that we've come to a problem here with respect to doctrine and God being the author of things?
 
More importantly I find what makes this issue problematic is the dialetical language we use to denote homosexuals. In today's research we are looking at genetic differences between homosexual brains and heterosexual brains. Although this is intriguing research, ethically speaking one could use the genetic defect arguement to denote homosexuality as a genetic defect of the human brain which would render someones sincere feelings a deffective effect of their brain chemistry. This is truly wrong science if this was the case. Just as there are biological differences in ethnic groups we must also accept sociological/biological differences in sexual orientation even if we at the core of our beliefs disagree with them.



Replies:
Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 11:07pm

Salam/Peace;

I think you are wasting time brother. I think in islam it is very clear, homosexual is final it's very clear in may verses in the Quran that talk about Prophet Lot pbuh.
 
I think homosexual is "heart" (moral) diseases like gambling addiction, sex predator, serial killer etc. Somehow their brain for whatever reason (maybe due to life experience, habit etc) has been change chemically that make them behave like that, release different chemistry compare to the normal people for the same response.
 
This disease must be cured, and can not be tolerate. If we tolerate homosexual, with the same logic we me may need to tolerate sex predator and serial killer. If there is no (God's+Human's) punishment for homoxesual, also it shouldn't be any punishment for the sex predator and serial killer because they have similar disease.
 


-------------
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"


Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:46am

The crime of homosexuality is one of the greatest of crimes, the worst of sins and the most abhorrent of deeds, and Allaah punished those who did it in a way that He did not punish other nations. It is indicative of violation of the fitrah, total misguidance, weak intellect and lack of religious commitment, and it is a sign of doom and deprivation of the mercy of Allaah. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. 

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

81. ‘Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins).’

82. And the answer of his people was only that they said: ‘Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!’

83. Then We saved him and his family, except his wife; she was of those who remained behind (in the torment).

84. And We rained down on them a rain (of stones). Then see what was the end of the Mujrimoon (criminals, polytheists and sinners)”

[al-A’raaf 7:80-84] 

“Verily, by your life (O Muhammad), in their wild intoxication, they were wandering blindly.

73. So As‑Saihah (torment — awful cry) overtook them at the time of sunrise.

74. And We turned (the towns of Sodom in Palestine) upside down and rained down on them stones of baked clay.

75. Surely, in this are signs for those who see (or understand or learn the lessons from the Signs of Allaah).

76. And verily, they (the cities) were right on the highroad (from Makkah to Syria, i.e. the place where the Dead Sea is now)”

[al-Hijr 15:72-76] 

al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi

Ahmad (2915) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “May Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot, may Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Loot,” three times. This was classed as hasan by Shu’ayb al-Arna’oot in Tahqeeq al-Musnad

 



-------------
And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 9:34am

Thw two previous posts here is why I made this thread.

The fact that you (Semar) called homosexuality a disease like alcoholism and drugs is a great misunderstanding and misconception you have regarding sexual orientation. Of course I know homosexuality is not accepted in Islam nor am I making an attempt to make it acceptable. What I'm saying here is that even though its unacceptable we do not have to be intolerate. Being intolerate just because we disagree with it nullifies any sincere reason why we don't accept it regardless whether it's a moral problem for us.
 
You (Semar) said:
 
This disease must be cured, and can not be tolerate. If we tolerate homosexual, with the same logic we me may need to tolerate sex predator and serial killer. If there is no (God's+Human's) punishment for homoxesual, also it shouldn't be any punishment for the sex predator and serial killer because they have similar disease.
 
How can you compare one's sexual orientation to a conscious manipulation of one seducing a child sexually?

 

 
 
 


Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Israfil

How can you compare one's sexual orientation to a conscious manipulation of one seducing a child sexually

 
How about serial killers. They happy to see sombody die on their hand. There is somthing wrong on their brain. Similar with homosexual, they happy to have sex with the same gender (attracted by the same gender), so there is something wrong to their brain. So it need to be cured.


-------------
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by semar

Originally posted by Israfil

How can you compare one's sexual orientation to a conscious manipulation of one seducing a child sexually

 
How about serial killers. They happy to see sombody die on their hand. There is somthing wrong on their brain. Similar with homosexual, they happy to have sex with the same gender (attracted by the same gender), so there is something wrong to their brain. So it need to be cured.
 
Semar,
 
This misconception you have here s your generating an assumption that homosexuality equates with having a sexual behavior and it's the idea. Heterosexual's tend to be more ambitious when it come to exhibitionism, than homosexuals when it comes to reports. Homosexuality is not about simply having sexual intercourse with the same sex. From my understanding from research, it's about the cognitive choice to prefer to be with someone of the same sex. This "choice" although cognitive, perhaps may originate from a neuro-chemical reaction which is quite distinct from heterosexual. The problem here is there is not enough proof to show that this is the case.
 
But it is intolerant language to compare homosexuality to someone who is a serial killer since one is a deliberate action with disregard to life and the other is a deliberate choice. You are comparing apples and oranges.


Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 1:55pm

Originally posted by Israfil

This "choice" although cognitive, perhaps may originate from a neuro-chemical reaction which is quite distinct from heterosexual. The problem here is there is not enough proof to show that this is the case.
 
If they do that by choice, to me, islamically this is more serious problem. On the other hand it is easier to be cured.
Originally posted by Israfil


But it is intolerant language to compare homosexuality to someone who is a serial killer since one is a deliberate action with disregard to life and the other is a deliberate choice. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Assuming that both of them caused by brain " defect / misbehave ",  both of them medically are the same.



-------------
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:07pm
I am aghast that this even needs to be explained to anybody, but here goes:
Originally posted by semar

Originally posted by Israfil

How can you compare one's sexual orientation to a conscious manipulation of one seducing a child sexually
 
How about serial killers. They happy to see sombody die on their hand. There is somthing wrong on their brain. Similar with homosexual, they happy to have sex with the same gender (attracted by the same gender), so there is something wrong to their brain. So it need to be cured.
The difference between homosexuals and serial killers is that homosexuals hurt no one, except possibly themselves in your opinion.
 
I suggest you be a bit careful about who you label as "morally diseased" and in need of a "cure".  There are many people who say the same thing about Islam, and would like to "cure" you.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 8:26pm

Originally posted by Israfil

Although we have discussed this issue many times on this forum, the trends of intolerence are still a reality in many global communities. It is unfortunate that, with the espousal of praising God with our lips we contradict our spiritual morality by being intolerent of others because of their "difference."

Global communities are vague, you need to be specific!

I reckon if you made the thread here, you must mean Islamic!

What you label intolerance might be necessary to keep the filth out!

To what am I referring you may wonder?

Enough homo--- words in the thread to kill that suspense!
 
I am referring to homosexuality. there are many individual today who still retain prejudicial biases based upon shared cultural ignorance.

Many individuals do not understand how and why members of the same sex find attraction to one another.

Why do they need to? It is sanctioned by Allah as punishable promiscuous behavior!

 Although we may disagree with the practice on a religious level in accordance to the faith it is important enough to understand why human beings are so different in this aspect.

There can be no acknowledgement of a PC’ed homosexuality in faith based environment. In this category you may add any other sexual abnormal behaviors.

 

To dispel some myths:

 

1) Being homosexual is not a disease

 

2) Being homosexual is not a curse

 

3) Being homosexual is not a genetic defect (I'm going against the grain here).

 

4) Being homosexual does not mean you have an oversexual behavior.

 

5) Being homosexual does not mean you are against God.

 

What ever myths you have attempted to dispel may be futile cuz they are lot more than those myths! IT is debauchery.

 Are you one?

The reason I'm stating these reason here is because I've notice that even today some f our languages have rendered themselves intolerant towards others. I noticed mean unwilling to give other men hugs they do not want to be categorized and labeled as being a "fag" which I might say the latter is an intolerant and inappropriate word to denote homosexuals.

God calls for punishing them for their lewd acts; in case of women it is even more sever ; Since Bill Clinton’s time they are the most privileged minority in the US more so than blacks! What you are saying that is

"We're here, we're queer, get used to it."

 

 

We all must understand that our sexual orientation is also facilitated socially, therefore many of us who are attracted to the opposite sex may thank the society we live in that helps us become attracted to the opposite sex. As of now, there is no conclusive evidence that states that we are inheritently heterossexual save certain studys on hormonal studies by biologist on attraction. but even if social conditioning was not the case for our attraction for the opposite sex can anyone us explain word for word why we are attracted to the opposite sex that is not commonly found in culture? Surely a woman cannot say she is attracted solely to men because she likes men. this is vague, therefore can each of us explain why we are attracted to the opposite sex? Of course not. Just like we cannot explain how we love someone. Certain behaviors simply cannot be explained.

 

 

On a similar note, many homosexuals derive their explanations from this reality. Even in an heterosexual environment, many homosexuals still cling to "internal" feelings they themselves cannot even explain. So how do we explain this? By helping them fight against a possible biological urge? By praying for them? By telling them to repent to God? Isn't it a bigger crime for one to deny one's trueself? Or does this mean that we've come to a problem here with respect to doctrine and God being the author of things?

 

 

More importantly I find what makes this issue problematic is the dialetical language we use to denote homosexuals.

 

 

In today's research we are looking at genetic differences between homosexual brains and heterosexual brains. Although this is intriguing research, ethically speaking one could use the genetic defect arguement to denote homosexuality as a genetic defect of the human brain which would render someones sincere feelings a deffective effect of their brain chemistry. This is truly wrong science if this was the case.

 

Just as there are biological differences in ethnic groups we must also accept sociological/biological differences in sexual orientation even if we at the core of our beliefs disagree with them.

This is gibberish; how confused can you get?

 I find you in a sea of moral confusion.

You aught to be ashamed of yourself for making this thread as supposed to be a Muslim!

Homosexuality is an abomination, and wouldn’t advocate "tolerance" of a perverse  behavior, any more than would teach "tolerance" of pedophilia or other sexual predators in the community!

 



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:08am

Originally posted by Sign*Reader (in unnecessarily large type)

"We're here, we're queer, get used to it."

Yes, I think that is essentially what Israfil is saying, though your insinuation that Israfil is homosexual is offensive and inappropriate.

The greatest sin, the single unforgivable sin according to the Quran, is shirk.  Millions of Muslims live in communities of (alleged) mushriks, and yet we do our best to tolerate one another and even to treat each other with mutual respect and fairness.

That is all most homosexuals want, and it is no less than they deserve.  Nobody is asking you to like what they do, or even to approve of it.  They are asking you to tolerate them, to understand that their sexuality is none of your business, and leave it to Allah to judge them as He will.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 6:00pm
I have to say that Sign Reader has reached the Zenith of his own ignorance. 
 
Are there more myths I could have listed? Yes.
 
But my primary reason for making this thread was to promote tolerance whether you accept people of this particular sexual orientation is of your choice. I find it contradictory and hypocritical of Muslims here to talk about how we want others to accept our faith and distinguish us from those who commit crime in the name of Islam yet, we will not tolerate other human beings simply because of their sexual orientation. And our reason? Because we call it an abonination and a disease comparable to pedophilia.
 
Sign Reader your post is one of the dumbest I've ever seen and the dumbest remark of the day. If tolerating people regardles sof their sexual orientation means ex-communicating me from the Muslim community then I'll gladly accept it. I'd rather live with human beings who are different than me and can respect me for who I am than self-righteous, ignorant religious A-holes like yourself. Your are ignorance incarnate by the fact that you can quote a Quranic verse and then judge me on my own morality. If there is a joke to be heard its your cognition (or lack thereof).
 
Obviously people didn't read the damn carefully (with the exception of Ron) when I said "Homosexuality is not a disease." In research we find similar behavior in animals and it is very well in the animal kingdom, so with this in mind are we going to say that all animals are diseased?
 
If you are st**id enough to question my sexuality then you don't have to worry for I love women. I want children of my own genes and want marriage. I thank God for coolness of my temperment because the younger me would have wnated to break your neck for making such comments. I highly doubt you would say that to my face and not end up with permanent injuries to your face. To you sign reader I am not Muslim and I'll gladly accept my disassociation with you or you ilk GLADLY!
 
Semar
 
It is non-sensical to say homosexuality is equated with someone who commits acts of murder/crime. That is like saying people who choose to like the color red are more likely to rob banks. You cannot compare two totally different things and link them together. If you were to present this to the scientific community you'd get laughed at. You surely cannot use the story of LOT to support your argument. How can you say homosexuality was the cause of their behavior? Aren't there other elements that may have caused their behavior?
 
Quite obviously those people in the time of Lot being Homosexual, was not the sole reason for their behavior. Perhaps the people did not have a strong found of faith (obviously) or were in to heavy drugs or were into a multitude of things. We should take into account the possible reasons why they believed what they did. Just because the Qur'an doesn't mention it doesn't mean it doesn't ever exist. It is good to critically think on these issues. Using the story of Lot is a weak argument.
 
I certainly find many Islamicity members to be very hypocritical when it comes to tolerance. The fact that you cannot tolerate someone simply because of their sexuality I find equated with NOT accepting someone because of their race. In many instances, people do not choose their sexuality many individuals feel "they just are" that way. The fact that many of you can classify this as a disease is insulting and a shame. The fact that others outside the community can see how intolerant some of your comments are will not win converts nor will it show how accpeting of 'difference' Muslims are. This is why I'm always on many of your cases when it comes to those political issues you say the U.S. has caused. Instead of whinning about another country we dont focus on what is at home in our community.
 
Sign Reader the fact that you couldn't make a comment without insulting me runs high. So I'll give you the same warning I gave Whisper a long time ago. Each time you make a person attack on me without provocation I will get person 10x back towards you. This thread was supposed to be about discussing the those differences of our opinions. If you disagree with me fine! But don't make insulting remarks and especially question my sexuality infront of others. Consider this your first and last warning. The moderators may be sleeping on your st**idity but I won't stand it here. The fact that your insulting post got through for approval is amazing.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 6:47pm
Israfil.. you are definitely trying your best.. Smile
 
Its funny people talk about this canot be "tolerated" etc. And funnily today I went to the masjid for "fun fest" and I sat along for 1 and a quarter hours by myself. Now I understand that the men might not be "friendly" but to sit along, most people did not say salaams, people just walked by, few smiled. Even when alone with two women they chose to speak another language (and they knew English)... but no one went out of their way to come back. And one wonders why new Muslims don't often stick around... sad just sad
 
 
Maybe tonight.. I don't understand many Muslims at all....


-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 10:31pm
Wa Salaam Sr. Hayfa,
 
I appreciate the words of encouragement and appreciate you taking the time to read the thread. It is indeed unfortunate that in today's world human beings are still stuck in their shallow mindset. I too feel that I do not understand Muslims at all. It has become more evident here on the world wide web than it has in actuality. Since my inception in this website since '03 it has become quite evident here that there are just some individuals if not the majority of Muslims on this website who do not accept people for who they are out of sheer ignorance and arrgoance.
 
Of course anyone here can try a rebuttal by simply saying it says in the Qur'an this and that are bad. I understand there is that fine line where we take into account the Quranic and Hadith text but how far do we interpret those words into intolerable actions played out by us? I wonder in my own questioning if God indeed is the author of our bological processes then, by knowing that homosexuality is the result of biological and social processes and knowingly leads to sin and knowing that it is more impulsive than will why allow humans to behave that way? I wonder if God would share into that accountability.
 
If indeed sexual orientation is impulsive than will (will denotes the ability to  consciously act whereas impulse is purely spontaneous reaction) then how can we hold people accountable? If Islamic morality is not universal among people and if there are individuals who sincerely do not agree with some of Islamic practices then to what truth are homosexuals accountable for? There are so many unanswered questions but I've resolves the issue within myself by simply knowing that homosexuality in practice, is still consdiered taboo in many of the patriarchal socities and communities in which conservative, heterosexual attitudes are still evident.
 
The fact that we as a people in the United States (or aborad) cannot elect an official of important status simply because of their sexual orientation is amazing. through history we can see +200 years back no person in the U.S. would ever think there would be an African-American candidate running for the presidency (or a woman). I guess I can say through my own skepticism of our ambiguous world there is some optimism I do share about the future.
 
I do hope mainstream Muslims at least here can get over their own ignorance regarding other human beings and begin to define 'tolerance' in a more fluid definition. Although it is not surprising that we still have muslims here who defend cultural exclusion in marriage, therefore it shouldn't be an even greater surprise that Muslims will here at least will nont tolerate gays. I wonder when we will get to a point where we alleviate ourselves from our own hypocrisy and moral confusion as (Sign Reader points out I have)?
 
I don't think we will anytime soon.......


Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by Israfil

 
Semar
 
It is non-sensical to say homosexuality is equated with someone who commits acts of murder/crime. That is like saying people who choose to like the color red are more likely to rob banks. You cannot compare two totally different things and link them together. If you were to present this to the scientific community you'd get laughed at. You surely cannot use the story of LOT to support your argument. How can you say homosexuality was the cause of their behavior? Aren't there other elements that may have caused their behavior?
 
Quite obviously those people in the time of Lot being Homosexual, was not the sole reason for their behavior. Perhaps the people did not have a strong found of faith (obviously) or were in to heavy drugs or were into a multitude of things. We should take into account the possible reasons why they believed what they did. Just because the Qur'an doesn't mention it doesn't mean it doesn't ever exist. It is good to critically think on these issues. Using the story of Lot is a weak argument. 
  
 
Israfil, I compared homosexuality with serial killer just to make the statement stronger. If I compared homosexuality with "anger management disorder" or other "psychological disorder" will be so plain, probably nobody will give any comment. Another reason that I took this example because both of the activity islamically have very serious violation to the faith.
 
"the scientific community you'd get laughed at", maybe yes maybe not.
Just in August, 1997, the Council of Representatives of the American Psychological Association approved a resolution that homosexuality is not a disorder. So if we can not say this is recently at least this is not long ago. And very sure this is not pure scientific decision but had very strong political aroma because 'homosexual community is getting bigger and gain more political muscle.
 
Yes, I agree that this (psychological disorder) is not the only cause, and could be combinations of many, even  I believe the main reason they "perform homosexual activity", because lack of faith.
 
I understand many peoples very hesitant  to against homosexual because if we see just "physically" it'll not heart anybody, the response just like sexual intercourse outside marriage. But both of them religiously have very serious consequence. I also believe both of them create social problem. Broken home that caused childs abandoned that initiated by outside marriage sex intercourse of spauses are very common this days.  If the percentage homosexual is getting bigger the population will shrink, even now (2007) the US white population is already shrink because many of them are not marriage, who are marriage, large percentage of them are only have one child, and very-very small percentage have more than 2 children. The year 2007 is the milestone that the percentage of American adults who are single more than 50%.
 
Just for additional reading:
- homosexual is cure-able
  http://www.narth.com/docs/evidencefound.html - http://www.narth.com/docs/evidencefound.html
 
Facts About Homosexuality and Mental Health   http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_mental_health.html - http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_mental_health.html


-------------
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:51am

I have to say that Sign Reader has reached the Zenith of his own ignorance. 

 Thank you very much for the nasty response!

My ignorance is fine as long as I can follow the Allah’s go no go gage i.e,

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)

3:104 Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.

 

But my primary reason for making this thread was to promote tolerance whether you accept people of this particular sexual orientation is of your choice.

You need to get one thing through your thick skull that when it comes to matters Islamic  neither of us could  take liberty about the clearly addressed issues by God in the scriptures.

 4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

4:16 If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

Islam is faith of clean living with modesty and the homos’y is life of filthy living by design and being against God ‘s word. It is like you telling others to tolerate parasites!

If they cannot procreate where would they get their new members from? the regular population

You want them around your family and children good luck! 


 I find it contradictory and hypocritical of Muslims here to talk about how we want others to accept our faith and distinguish us from those who commit crime in the name of Islam yet, we will not tolerate other human beings simply because of their sexual orientation.

Well; that is a wrongly ASS U Med proposition. Haven’t heard if the Muslims accept H/S't'y, they will be received with open arms and would be safe from the islamophobia!


The condition of Muslims is not going to get better coming out of bondage of colonialism any time soon even if they start tolerating homos. Their condition needs lot more introspection about the poor practice of their faith in order to get out of the condition they are in!.

The homos have lot more privileges in the US than probably the Muslims will ever have!

And our reason? Because we call it an abonination and a disease comparable to pedophilia.

Studies have revealed that new recruits do have homosexual contacts in their formative years that were overlooked by the parents or any responsible adults

 
Sign Reader your post is one of the dumbest I've ever seen and the dumbest remark of the day. If tolerating people regardles sof their sexual orientation means ex-communicating me from the Muslim community then I'll gladly accept it. I'd rather live with human beings who are different than me and can respect me for who I am than self-righteous, ignorant religious A-holes like yourself.

It tells about how enlightened background you come from and I am not surprised, I wonder what kind of neighborhood is your beat is in?

You can kiss and hug anyone what the heck I care!

Your are ignorance incarnate by the fact that you can quote a Quranic verse and then judge me on my own morality. If there is a joke to be heard its your cognition (or lack thereof).

You are demanding some thing before proving your point, after all this an Islamic matter you conveniently are ignoring at your own peril!


You can do all the name calling your kind are good at, it doesn’t bother me at all!

I don’t need to judge anyone, this is internet- in fact you are self incriminating yourself!

 

Obviously people didn't read the damn carefully (with the exception of Ron) when I said "Homosexuality is not a disease." In research we find similar behavior in animals and it is very well in the animal kingdom, so with this in mind are we going to say that all animals are diseased?

I agree it is not a disease but the numbers don’t lie they do carry more disease than others! Their life spans are no where near the normal population!

If the male monkeys hang out together doesn’t mean they are our role models!

What an argument?

Ron being in Canada has to go along as that is the country’s law!

 

If you are st**id enough to question my sexuality then you don't have to worry for I love women. I want children of my own genes and want marriage. I thank God for coolness of my temperment because the younger me would have wnated to break your neck for making such comments. I highly doubt you would say that to my face and not end up with permanent injuries to your face. To you sign reader I am not Muslim and I'll gladly accept my disassociation with you or you ilk GLADLY!

What the heck I care about your orientation!

But birds of a feather flock together saying has some truth in it!

Thank goodness IM on the internet, telling you off on face to face will of course be st**id, whose role models happen to be homosexual animals!

 I certainly find many Islamicity members to be very hypocritical when it comes to tolerance. The fact that you cannot tolerate someone simply because of their sexuality I find equated with NOT accepting someone because of their race.

I think you have  psychological issues cuz of race based personal encounters and need to get 
extra mileage out of it! Don't try to mix apples and oranges!

 In many instances, people do not choose their sexuality many individuals feel "they just are" that way. The fact that many of you can classify this as a disease is insulting and a shame.

It may not be a disease per se but it sure is abomination and lewd behavior a step toward disease and misery!

http://MEDICAL%20CONSEQUENCES%20OF%20WHAT%20HOMOSEXUALS%20DO - MEDICAL CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT HOMOSEXUALS DO

 

 The fact that others outside the community can see how intolerant some of your comments are will not win converts nor will it show how accpeting of 'difference' Muslims are.

Quality always beats quantity!

 

 This is why I'm always on many of your cases when it comes to those political issues you say the U.S. has caused. Instead of whinning about another country we dont focus on what is at home in our community.

Shows the level of your comprehension; you are shouting at the internet forum on what to do!

 

Sign Reader the fact that you couldn't make a comment without insulting me runs high. So I'll give you the same warning I gave Whisper a long time ago. Each time you make a person attack on me without provocation I will get person 10x back towards you.

LOL do you consider yourself in Whisper’s class—dream on brother!

Why would I insult you? As matter of fact I just gave you some facts and a question and you say I insulted you! How weird!

This thread was supposed to be about discussing the those differences of our opinions. If you disagree with me fine! But don't make insulting remarks and especially question my sexuality infront of others. Consider this your first and last warning. The moderators may be sleeping on your st**idity but I won't stand it here. The fact that your insulting post got through for approval is amazing.

The amazing thing is that you want some special privileges like” the head I win tail you lose”

 I will not let you get past the first base if you do another dumb attempt in starting an anti Quranic thread no matter how intelligent you think of yourself!!!  

If it is such a normal thing why did Jim McGreevey & Mark Foley resigned after their homosex’l behavior came to surface ?

 

 

 



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 9:37am
Semar,
 
The reason the scientific/psychological community (one which I am apart of) considers homosexuality NOT to be a disorder is because of the ethical stipulations of labeling a sexual orientation as a disorder. That is to say, if one has a compulsion of attraction to the same sex then to label such an attraction a disorder is to create a stigma based upon one's own sexuality which is ultimately wrong.
 
I believe the main reason they "perform homosexual activity", because lack of faith.
 
The problem with this statement is that it reeks of stereotypical and prejudicial garb. what is homosexual activity? Are you referring to simply homsexual, sexual, activity? First off, when you see people who are gay or lesbian why would you automatically think of sexual intercourse or sexual things? Maybe its the social condition that you and/your social upbringing has developed. I have befriended many gays and lesbians who have regular lives like all of us. Many of these individuals hold down positions of importance and can perform the same as we heterosexual individuals do. Besides, if you don't have a choice in matters of sexuality how do you lack faith?
 
There is no distinction in behavior of a homosexual and a heterosexual except certain behavioral traits and sexual traits other than that they are human like us. It is unfortunate that when we think of homosexuality we equate it with the attitudes of the people of Lot as if that has so relevance to today's gays and lesbians. Remember, times have changed and the attitudes of people change. there are a lot of more individuals who are conscious of what is right and wrong and just because our standards are different doesn't give us the right to be intolerant.
 
Semar (and others) read the following:
 

Since 1975, the American Psychological

Association has called on psychologists

to take the lead in removing the stigma

of mental illness that has long been associated

with lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations.

The discipline of psychology is concerned

with the well-being of people and groups

and therefore with threats to that well-being.

The prejudice and discrimination that people

who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual

regularly experience have been shown to have

negative psychological effects.

How do people know if they

are lesbian, gay, or bisexual?

According to current scientific and professional

understanding, the core attractions that form

the basis for adult sexual orientation typically

emerge between middle childhood and early

adolescence. These patterns of emotional,

romantic, and sexual attraction may arise

without any prior sexual experience. People

can be celibate and still know their sexual

orientation-–be it lesbian, gay, bisexual, or

heterosexual.

Different lesbian, gay, and bisexual people

have very different experiences regarding their

sexual orientation. Some people know that

they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual for a long

time before they actually pursue relationships

with other people. Some people engage in

sexual activity (with same-sex and/or othersex

partners) before assigning a clear label

to their sexual orientation. Prejudice and

discrimination make it difficult for many

people to come to terms with their sexual

orientation identities, so claiming a lesbian,

gay, or bisexual identity may be a slow process.

What causes a person to

have a particular sexual

orientation?

There is no consensus among scientists

about the exact reasons that an individual

develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or

lesbian orientation. Although much research

has examined the possible genetic, hormonal,

developmental, social, and cultural influences

on sexual orientation, no findings have

emerged that permit scientists to conclude

that sexual orientation is determined by any

particular factor or factors. Many think that

nature and nurture both play complex roles;

most people experience little or no sense of

choice about their sexual orientation.

Is homosexuality a mental

disorder?

No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are

not disorders. Research has found no inherent

association between any of these sexual orientations

and psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior

and homosexual behavior are normal aspects of

human sexuality. Both have been documented

in many different cultures and historical eras.

Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray

lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed,

several decades of research and clinical experience

have led all mainstream medical and mental

health organizations in this country to conclude

that these orientations represent normal forms

of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual

relationships are normal forms of human bonding.

Therefore, these mainstream organizations long ago

abandoned classifications of homosexuality as a

mental disorder.

What about therapy intended to

change sexual orientation from

gay to straight?

All major national mental health organizations

have officially expressed concerns about therapies

promoted to modify sexual orientation. To

date, there has been no scientifically adequate

research to show that therapy aimed at changing

sexual orientation (sometimes called reparative

or conversion therapy) is safe or effective.

Furthermore, it seems likely that the promotion

of change therapies reinforces stereotypes and

contributes to a negative climate for lesbian, gay,

and bisexual persons. This appears to be especially

likely for lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals who

grow up in more conservative religious settings.

What is “coming out” and why

is it important?

The phrase “coming out” is used to refer to several

aspects of lesbian, gay, and bisexual persons’

experiences: self-awareness of same-sex attractions;

the telling of one or a few people about these

attractions; widespread disclosure of same-sex

attractions; and identification with the lesbian, gay,

and bisexual community. Many people hesitate to

come out because of the risks of meeting prejudice

and discrimination. Some choose to keep their

identity a secret; some choose to come out in

limited circumstances; some decide to come out in

very public ways.

Coming out is often an important psychological

step for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. Research

has shown that feeling positively about one’s

sexual orientation and integrating it into one’s

life fosters greater well-being and mental health.

What about sexual orientation

and coming out during

adolescence?

Adolescence is a period when people separate

from their parents and families and begin to

develop autonomy. Adolescence can be a period

of experimentation, and many youths may

question their sexual feelings. Becoming aware of

sexual feelings is a normal developmental task of

adolescence. Sometimes adolescents have same-sex

feelings or experiences that cause confusion about

their sexual orientation. This confusion appears

to decline over time, with different outcomes for

different individuals.

Some adolescents desire and engage in samesex

behavior but do not identify as lesbian, gay,

or bisexual, sometimes because of the stigma

associated with a nonheterosexual orientation.

Can lesbians and gay men

be good parents?

Many lesbians and gay men are parents; others

wish to be parents. In the 2000 U.S. Census, 33%

of female same-sex couple households and 22% of

male same-sex couple households reported at least

one child under the age of 18 living in the home.

Although comparable data are not available, many

single lesbians and gay men are also parents, and

many same-sex couples are part-time parents to

children whose primary residence is elsewhere.

You can read the entire pdf.file from the following link: http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.pdf - http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.pdf
 
I believe my evidence here speaks volumes, besides this link is credible as if comes from the APA (American Psychological Association).


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 10:33am

Assalamu Alaikum,

First of all, I find very offensive to see the level of rudeness and tone of the language in this thread. I say this not only as a moderator, but also as a participant. Since it is a da’wah site, utmost care should be given as to how we communicate here; it is much more important for Muslims as they are hosts; they are the ones here who are supposed to communicate and explain to the guests and to the global audience about Islam.

As far as issue at hand is concerned, it has already been explained here many times that homosexuality is a major sin in Islam. In fact, it was a crime for which the people of Prophet Lot ( peace be upon him ) were punished after being warned of severe consequences if they wouldn’t abandon this bad habit. Many world religions, including Islam, forbid this practice.

Please see the following link for further study:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544846 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544846

The matter as to how a homosexual should be treated varies from society to society. In many Muslim as well as non-Muslim societies, this practice is not acceptable at all; in some societies, this is given permissibility even at public level. In general, tolerance towards such people by Muslims can be interpreted as tolerance towards any other human being, including non-Muslims, polytheists etc. The best thing for Muslims would be to refrain from this forbidden practice and let laws of the land decide in such matters.

We should avoid bringing such serious issues in the future that already have sundry explanations posted by various members here time and again. The kind of manner noticed here indicates that just claiming to be a Muslim is not enough on this da’wah site; a transformation or change is required in order to meet the criteria of being a da’iy. I don’t exclude myself here, and even I need to upgrade my skills to educate masses about Islam.

This form of abusive and foul language as witnessed in this thread will not be tolerated nor will the opening of such sensitive topics or issues, discussed at various occasions from time to time, be acceptable here.

Please refer to past threads on this topic or ask a scholar for any further clarification.

May Allah guide us all.

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 11:16am
Salams,
 
Israfil, you have chosen a name of a very important angel during the time the world will come to end and Judgement Day will commence, yet you do not seek the truth nor have done sufficent research on the myth of homosexuality.
 
As for suggesting that homosexuality is "scientifically normal", let me assure you that this is a MYTH.
 
Please do more research and read these:
 
http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2003/02/Article01.shtml - http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2003/02/Article01.shtml
 
 
http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html - http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html
 
Do you not think that if Allah swt, the Most Merciful, knew homosexuality was 'normal' that He would have allowed gays to get married? It is clear to most decent Muslims that homosexuality is sexual perversion. It is rebellion, it's a disbute of a man against womankind and for lesbians their disbute is with mankind. I agree with Br Samer, it is a psychological disorder, unlike that of islamophobes who say the same about Islam and Muslims. Just as you can never compare incest with the religion of Christianity, therefore you may not compare Islam with homosexuals, or any psychological disorders, because our Prophet was neither a homosexual nor had he ever commited incest or adultery, finally he certainly was not a mad man or suffering from dementia.
 
We, Muslims are neither afraid to speak the truth nor afraid to defend our honourable faith.
 
May Allah guide you and help you to focus on the more important matters, the reality of life and death, our final goal to Allah and to be raised again on His final Judgement Day.
 
Wasalam


Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 11:18am
Originally posted by Israfil

Semar,
 
The reason the scientific/psychological community (one which I am apart of) considers homosexuality NOT to be a disorder is because of the ethical stipulations of labeling a sexual orientation as a disorder.

That was my point (ethical or political decision not  scientific decision).
 
Originally posted by Israfil


I believe the main reason they "perform homosexual activity", because lack of faith.
 
The problem with this statement is that it reeks of stereotypical and prejudicial garb. what is homosexual activity? Are you referring to simply homosexual, sexual, activity? First off, when you see people who are gay or lesbian why would you automatically think of sexual intercourse or sexual things? Maybe its the social condition that you and/your social upbringing has developed. I have befriended many gays and lesbians who have regular lives like all of us. Many of these individuals hold down positions of importance and can perform the same as we heterosexual individuals do. Besides, if you don't have a choice in matters of sexuality how do you lack faith?
 

 
"Homosexual activity" means "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things".
I have no problem if they don't do the "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things", for us there is no proof anyway, if they don't do that. I think by using the premise that Allah will not punish people who have intention to do bad things until they really do that, so in this case will be the same, if they have not done the "unusual things" will be OK.
 
Originally posted by Israfil


I have befriended many gays and lesbians who have regular lives like all of us. Many of these individuals hold down positions of importance and can perform the same as we heterosexual individuals do. Besides, if you don't have a choice in matters of sexuality how do you lack faith?
 

If we talk about about this issue, I think we should refer to the "faith's ethical standard".
I agree that they regular people, like people who commit adultery also regular people and many of them hold importance position. But in the eye of religion both of them are big sinners (in my understanding).
 
Moreover if Allah ask us not to do something I believe there is bad implication if we violate it, even if we can't not see/understand it now. On earlier post the population shrinking is one possibility, high percentage aids cases on homos another possibility.


-------------
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:39pm
Peacemaker
Salamoalaykum:
Jazakullah for Islam on line link and appropriate advisement on the subject!Lamp



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Israfil

It is good to critically think on these issues. Using the story of Lot is a weak argument.
 
Israfil, your comment is suggesting that the Quran verses on Lot are "weak arguments", I am saddened to read this, as a Muslim, you should know the contrary to be true.
 
 


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 6:05pm

I'm not sure what the point of this discussion is.  Obviously the Quran considers it a major sin; but beyond that, arguing about whether homosexuality is "unusual", abnormal", a "disease", etc., is nothing more than playing word games.  The underlying question is not what it is, but what we should do about it.  And the answer is clear: nothing at all, because regardless of what words you use to describe it, it's none of your business.

I do want to address one especially egregious bit of nonsense, however:

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I agree it is not a disease but the numbers don’t lie they do carry more disease than others! Their life spans are no where near the normal population!

Actually the numbers often do lie -- or rather the people generating the numbers do.  This is a notoriously difficult subject for researchers for obvious reasons, but the best data I have seen puts (American male) homosexual lifespans a mere eight months less than the general population.

I invite you to quote some sources that say otherwise, and I'll be pleased to explain why and how they are lying.  I've been all over the 'Net debating this topic and I think by now I've seen 'em all.

Just one friendly piece of advice: don't cite Paul Cameron.  That would make it too easy. Smile



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 9:46pm

Peacemaker,

 I'm sorry but I will NOT apologize for my rant. if you can check the inital posts in the beginning I made no personal attack on Sign Reader but quite the opposite. although I'm conscious of the forum guidelines I feel as an individual I deserve the right to defend myself if I feel that I'm personally attacked. I don't care whether someone finds my words ignorant. That is fine, welcome an attack on my argument or whatever but when individuals make personal reference to me (not the discussion) then it goes beyond the scope of the thread. For God's sake even Ron picked up on it. I don't give a damn if the person is Muslim or not I am a man before anything and I will not accept personal attacks on me especially if they are unwarranted.
 
you also said: We should avoid bringing such serious issues in the future that already have sundry explanations posted by various members here time and again.
 
I found this thread to be quite relevant because as you can see especially from the posts of Semar, there are a lot of individuals ignorant of homosexuality. the fact that an individual can equate homosexuality with pedophilia or serial killers is an alarming statement. It let's me know there is no fundamental knowledge on the issue. Besides most of the topics have become redundant here anyway (see political threads). I find this issue one that has not been discussed enough.
 
I have realized since my time on this site since '03 that I am not the best Muslim ( or even Muslim at all) but one thing I do know is that in my life I have treated humans with decency and respect and at least I can accept the differences of others whether physiological or mental. I am of the opinion which runs consistent and true here is that ther eis not enough tolerance of difference of people here and that is the honest truth.
 
Fareeda,
 
You said:
 
Israfil, you have chosen a name of a very important angel during the time the world will come to end and Judgement Day will commence, yet you do not seek the truth nor have done sufficent research on the myth of homosexuality.
 
Since you're a newbie I'll clue you in. I am a researcher and I do know the "truth" about homosexuality. We do over 2,000 case studies per year with individuals who identify themselves as homosexual. The basis of our finds in our research runs consistent and there is high internal validity in our reports. Now to what truth you are talking about I'm not sure, but of course the most obvious is the fact that you may be referring to the truth of homosexuality with respect to the Quranic verse regarding the people of Lot.
 
As for suggesting that homosexuality is "scientifically normal", let me assure you that this is a MYTH.
 
Obviously you didn't read my long post with the link attached that dispelled your above statement. I refuse to look at religious links because they tend to be biased towards their own religious agenda. Most religionist do not do case studies nor take the time to do research, but only look at compelling numbers that are geared towards their own opinion. If one does an objective research study regarding homosexuality one would see the differences in attitudes that are a great contrast to the conservative views of the religious community.
 
Fareeda you also said:
 
Do you not think that if Allah swt, the Most Merciful, knew homosexuality was 'normal' that He would have allowed gays to get married?
 
The above statement is non-sensical. Laws forbid gays and lesbians to get married not nature. It is obvious if laws permitted gays and lesbians to get married then they would. There are many gays and lesbians who consider themselves "married" even though it is not recognized by law so I'm not sure what your point is here in that sentence.
 
You also said:
 
It is clear to most decent Muslims that homosexuality is sexual perversion. It is rebellion, it's a disbute of a man against womankind and for lesbians their disbute is with mankind.
 
I have also shown that homosexuality, in many instances is not a matter of choice. how can one rebel against God if the feeling is innate. Society especially the conservative religious society has created a stigma in this type of categorization of moralizing the issue of homosexuality. We through doctrine have conditioned our society to not tolerate it because it is not accepted in the Qur'an. Although it is quite clear that God in the time of Lot did not accept the behavior, I am saying still this is no excuse for us to not be tolerant of people of this particular sexual orientation.
 
You also said:
 
I agree with Br Samer, it is a psychological disorder, unlike that of islamophobes who say the same about Islam and Muslims.
 
Semar's views on saying homosexuality as a psychological disorder has been proven via provided link by the american Psychological Association. A credible source see: http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.pdf - http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.pdf
 
 
Semar you said:
 
That was my point (ethical or political decision not  scientific decision).
 
You are playing with words now because your original post did not have any inclination towards what you are saying in the above. As I have provided in the link the APA has mad eit clear that homosexuality is NOT a psychological disorder. There is no evidence that is shown that there are neurological disorders of any kind.
 
You also said:
 
"Homosexual activity" means "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things".
 
You have not mad eit clear what homosexual activity is. Your words are vague and unclear. What is homosexual activity I need you to be descriptive here.
 
You also said:
 
I have no problem if they don't do the "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things", for us there is no proof anyway, if they don't do that. I think by using the premise that Allah will not punish people who have intention to do bad things until they really do that, so in this case will be the same, if they have not done the "unusual things" will be OK.
 
Again you are still being unclear here.
 
You said:
 
If we talk about about this issue, I think we should refer to the "faith's ethical standard".
 
The world is much more bigger than our own standards in faith. If I see someone I cannot judge them based on what I know except their actions but if I don't know them why judge at all? My standards lie in what God wants from me not what I want in others. How I see others should have no bearing on my faith. People are people and you must understand you cannot change society. By simply being intolerant you are validating the social stigma that is placed on Islam and Muslims as an intolerant culture.
 
 "high percentage aids cases on homos another possibility."
 
Calling someone "homos" is definitely a derogatory term FYI. With respect to your AIDS/HIV case there are a lot of factors that contribute to the high rates of AIDS cases. In research we do not rule out extraneous variables that may affect the findings of HIV/AIDs case studies. Simply limiting it to sexual orientation is not enough to make a generalization that being homsexual or homsexual contributes to HIV/AIDS. Less we forget sharing needles, blood transfusions, lack of contraceptive use etc.
 
Fareeda you said:
 
Israfil, your comment is suggesting that the Quran verses on Lot are "weak arguments", I am saddened to read this, as a Muslim, you should know the contrary to be true.
 
I never said the vers eitself to be weak. Obviously that is contrary to my beliefs. I said I found it weak to simply quote the verse and say "there, I refuted your position because God said so here." In intellectual discourse if you are making a demonstrative claim and if you are quoting a doctrinal verse it is best to demonstrate your point from what the Qur'an says even if it sounds clear. Again it is easy to misappropriate the practices and beliefs of those ancient people with people of today. Like I mentioned with Semar, there are many homosexual individuals who are practicing physicians saving lives everyday. So would you say the doctor who is gay is like the person in the time of Lot? Again, by simply saying homosexuals are synonymous with evil like those people in the time of lot is an unfair association since the mentalities of that era has changed drastically.
 
Many scholars with personal agendas have used doctrinal verses to further their own cause. We have seen it with Osama Bin Laden. We have seen it with Billy Graham. We have seen it in the times of slavery where people used the story of Ham to validate slavery. Like I said, anyone can use a doctrinal verse and say that the truth is there but this is not demonstrative proof. I'm asking for demonstrative proof not a verse and someone telling me that there is the proof. I call for an explanation even if the person feels the doctrine doesn't need one it still helps. After all everyones perception of a thing is different.
 
 



 


 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 12:07am

Israfil Said:
 
You are playing with words now because your original post did not have any inclination towards what you are saying in the above. As I have provided in the link the APA has mad eit clear that homosexuality is NOT a psychological disorder. There is no evidence that is shown that there are neurological disorders of any kind.

 
I am sorry Israfil, unfortunately I have not read the APA link yet. Apparently you  make an assumption about me. Hopefully on your other statement were not just  assumptions.  Here what I said on post even before you post the APA link:
===
Just in August, 1997, the Council of Representatives of the American Psychological Association approved a resolution that homosexuality is not a disorder. So if we can not say this is recently at least this is not long ago. And very sure this is not pure scientific decision but had very strong political aroma because 'homosexual community is getting bigger and gain more political muscle.
===
 

Israfil Said

You also said:
 
"Homosexual activity" means "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things".
 
You have not mad eit clear what homosexual activity is. Your words are vague and unclear. What is homosexual activity I need you to be descriptive here.
 
You also said:
 
I have no problem if they don't do the "unusual" sexual intercourse or other "unusual" sexual things", for us there is no proof anyway, if they don't do that. I think by using the premise that Allah will not punish people who have intention to do bad things until they really do that, so in this case will be the same, if they have not done the "unusual things" will be OK.
 
Again you are still being unclear here.


What can be clearer, we are adult bro.
 
Israfil said:
 You said:
 
If we talk about about this issue, I think we should refer to the "faith's ethical standard".
 
The world is much more bigger than our own standards in faith. If I see someone I cannot judge them based on what I know except their actions but if I don't know them why judge at all? My standards lie in what God wants from me not what I want in others. How I see others should have no bearing on my faith. People are people and you must understand you cannot change society. By simply being intolerant you are validating the social stigma that is placed on Islam and Muslims as an intolerant culture.

I thought because this is Islamic forum so to me the discussion is about homosexual from Muslim/Islamic perspective.
 
Israfil said:

 "high percentage aids cases on homos another possibility."
 
Calling someone "homos" is definitely a derogatory term FYI. With respect to your AIDS/HIV case there are a lot of factors that contribute to the high rates of AIDS cases. In research we do not rule out extraneous variables that may affect the findings of HIV/AIDS case studies. Simply limiting it to sexual orientation is not enough to make a generalization that being homosexual or homosexual contributes to HIV/AIDS. Less we forget sharing needles, blood transfusions, lack of contraceptive use etc.

I used "homos" to make shorter word, so please read it as homosexual persons. Anyway how many percent of homos who have HIV/AIDS positive who used to use needles. You stated that you were researcher you might have data about that. From that we can draw conclusion, needles or anal sexual intercourse, the main cause of HIV/AIDS in homos community.

 



-------------
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 3:25am
Whoever said that homosexuality is a myth really needs to do some more learning.
 
 


-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 4:07am
Quoting Ronn: Re: "nothing more than playing word games"
 
Yes that is my point, esp when you haven't done any research, Ronn!
 
Just remember this is only *your* opinion, not ours, and it's certainly not based on sound, scientific research or Islam! So instead of telling and attacking Muslims, I suggest you to practice what you preach and as you said "mind your own business"
 
Sorry to sound harsh.
 


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 4:34am
Originally posted by semar

You also said:
 
You have not made it clear what homosexual activity is. Your words are vague and unclear. What is homosexual activity I need you to be descriptive here.
 
You also said:
Israfil
 
I agree with you Br Semar. The point is, when people are indulging or want to indulge in haram activities, they will make any excuse to make it appear that sinful relations are right. Allah swt mentioned to us in the Quran 8:48:
 
Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them...
 
Brother, it's no use wasting time, arguing with those bent on sympathising with disbelief, who ignore Allah's signs from the Quran, who have no respect for our Prophet, his way of life. These people come in many guises in order to waver us from our path. You will all be here in endless and mindless debate simply because they have another agenda - to spread misinfo and disinfo on Islam and make muslims submit to evil,  and make them think there is something worng with our religion, when in fact they are the real losers. It's far better to support a better cause than to be amongst those who don't want to listen or take any note of scientific evidence that I have posted here.
 
They are the ignorant.
....And turn away from the ignorant” (Quran 7:199)
 
To those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with Allah. (Quran 4:139)
 
Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. (Quran 4:140)
 


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 9:49am
I love self-righteous people!
 
Iam not persuading you to believe as I! I'm merely making a point to be tolerant to people of this sexual orientation as human beings not accept what they do these are entirely two different things. I obviously and personally do not believe in practicing homosexuality but I can tolerate it because I understand that for many, its not a matter of choice.
 
>>>>It's far better to support a better cause than to be amongts those who don't want to listen or take any note of scientific evidence that I have posted here.<<<<<
 
Religious postsor religious links are non-scientific I'm sorry. The basis of some religious findings are more inclined towards doctrinal than actual objective observations. I've done research long enough to know the difference.
 


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 10:07am
Originally posted by Israfil

I love self-righteous people!
 
Speak for yourself. It seems you are a Non Muslim, Israfil, yet you have chosen a religious user name of a particularly, highly esteemed angel, in Islam, only to be sullied by your character online.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Iam not persuading you to believe as I! I'm merely making a point to be tolerant to people of this sexual orientation as human beings not accept what they do these are entirely two different things. I obviously and personally do not believe in practicing homosexuality but I can tolerate it ....
 
Be careful, you are retracting and self-contradicting your statements.
None of us said we are intolerant of others. Your friends can live as they like as long as they do not indoctrinate us with *their* "values"
 
Originally posted by Israfil

So would you say the doctor who is gay is like the person in the time of Lot?
 
Why, what makes you think there were no gay doctors at the time of Prophet Lot? 
 
So would you say the pedophile who gives charity is like a religious person such as Lot or prophet Muhammad pbuh? Would you say http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2135604.stm - the doctor who mass murdered his patients is decent as a believer in God and so you think he will go to paradise without judgment? 
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Again, by simply saying homosexuals are synonymous with evil like those people in the time of lot is an unfair association since the mentalities of that era has changed drastically..
 
Again, by simply saying piety is synonymous with evil, and belief is synonymous with disbelief, that Muslims are synonymous with homosexuals is an unfair association since religious mentalities between believers from those of atheists, pagans, criminals, sexual perverts, pedophiles, rapists, fornicating homosexuals, are drastically different - Just as Moses was different to Pharaoh, David to Goliath, Lot to Sodom & Gomorrah, Jesus was to Herod and Julius Caesar then so are believers different to atheists, pagans, criminals and those who commit sexual crime and obscenities.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Laws forbid gays and lesbians to get married not nature.  It is obvious if laws permitted gays and lesbians to get married then they would. There are many gays and lesbians who consider themselves "married" even though it is not recognized by law ...
 
1. How can you prove that 'nature' allows gays and lesbians to get married? Do lesbians have the same reproductive systems as males and can gay men get pregnant and give birth to children?
 
Answer: - Obviously and Naturally not!
 
2. Are the semen and the egg, the different sexual reproduction systems and genitals in males and females, are both systems found in gays or lesbians?
 
Answer: -Scientifically not!
 
3. Do lesbians females have an erected male organ when they are attracted to another female? Do gay men suffer from PMS or morning sickness during pregnancy?
 
Answer: - Medically and psychologically not!
 
Therefore, you are naturally and scientifically, medically and psychologically, completely and utterly wrong. God's Laws AND Nature forbid males and females to form gay and lesbian relationships or for them to get married.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

The above statement is non-sensical...
 
The most nonsensical sentence has to be yours about "nature" allowing homosexuality. To a Non-Muslim who doesn't believe in Allah or the Quran (or studied natural science for that matter) Twist the truth, turn myths into reality, sound nonsensical but blame it on others - you're a typical propagandist! I am sure scientific evidence also must sound nonsensical to you. 
 
Originally posted by Israfil

so I'm not sure what your point is here in that sentence...
 
It's called common sense - in case you didn't know.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Religious postsor religious links are non-scientific I'm sorry. The basis of some religious findings are more inclined towards doctrinal than actual objective observations..
 
What a pity you are wrong again. On what scientific basis do you assert that religious persons are non-scientific? Since when was NARTH non-Scientific? Someone doesn't get a graduation and is called a Doctor, unless they have studied science.
 
Here are the links for you to check again.
 
http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2003/02/Article01.shtml - http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2003/02/Article01.shtml
 
http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html - http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html
 
Originally posted by Israfil

I've done research long enough to know the difference.
 
Oh really? Surely, you don't expect everyone to believe only you are correct? How unscientific.  I am sure that is what they call being arrogant. And no, people are not going to be bullied or pushed around or forced into believing your fantasies and dogma, only because, you say so.  
 
Get your facts right next time - if you don't want to be humiliated any further.
 


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 11:36am
Originally posted by Israfil

 I'm merely making a point to be tolerant to people of this sexual orientation as human beings  
 
I think that most people of faith, Muslims, Jews, Christians and others are indeed tolerant Israfil, but the question becomes how tolerant.  Tolerance is a relative term having different meanings.  Let us take for example having our children participate with a local boys scouts group only to find that the scout leader is gay.  Are you tolerant enough to continue sending your son on camping trips?  Do you believe that same-sex couples should be allowed to adopt children thus denying them  an opportunity to grow up in a home with a mother and a father?   Lastly, it will be a hard sell on any site where members have moral values to expect them to become totally comfortable with that which is against their faith - keeping in mind that most are in fact tolerant, however the degree to which they are tolerant will differ depending upon the circumstances involved.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by fareeda

Originally posted by Israfil

I love self-righteous people!
 
Speak for yourself. It seems you are a Non Muslim, Israfil, yet you have chosen a religious user name of a particularly, highly esteemed angel, in Islam, only to be sullied by your character online.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Iam not persuading you to believe as I! I'm merely making a point to be tolerant to people of this sexual orientation as human beings not accept what they do these are entirely two different things. I obviously and personally do not believe in practicing homosexuality but I can tolerate it ....
 
Be careful, you are retracting and self-contradicting your statements.
None of us said we are intolerant of others. Your friends can live as they like as long as they do not indoctrinate me and others with "their values"
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Religious postsor religious links are non-scientific I'm sorry. The basis of some religious findings are more inclined towards doctrinal than actual objective observations. I've done research long enough to know the difference.
 
What a pity you are wrong again. On what scientific basis do you assert that religious persons are non-scientific? Since when was NARTH non-Scientific? Someone doesn't get a graduation and is called a Doctor, unless they have studied science.
 
Here are the links for you to check again.
 
http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2003/02/Article01.shtml - - http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html
 
Originally posted by Israfil

I've done research long enough to know the difference.
 
Oh really? Surely, you don't expect everyone to believe only you are correct? How unscientific.  I am sure that is what they call being arrogant. And no, people are not going to be bullied or pushed around or forced into believing your fantasties and dogma, only because, you say so.  
 
Get your facts right next time - if you don't want to be humiliated any further.
 

                           
Clap-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thumbs%20Up



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 11:32pm
Speak for yourself. It seems you are a Non Muslim, Israfil, yet you have chosen a religious user name of a particularly, highly esteemed angel, in Islam, only to be sullied by your character online.
 
Thank You.
 
None of us said we are intolerant of others. Your friends can live as they like as long as they do not indoctrinate us with *their* "values"
 
My friends? Since when I did I mention my friends and the fact that you have quoted quranic veses and called them evil and comparable to serial killers is enough evidence to show intolerance. also where did you find me contradicting my statements? Let's see I said tolerate....Not accept sexual orientation....these are two different things one can tolerate something one does not believe in.
 
Why, what makes you think there were there no gay doctors at the time of Prophet Lot? So would you say the pedophile who gives charity is like a religious person such as Lot or prophet Muhammad pbuh? Would you say http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2135604.stm - the doctor who mass murdered his patients is decent as a believer in God and so you think he will go to paradise without judgement? 
 
This is purely an ignorant analysis of the issue. For god's sake do you honestly think today's modern physicians with their advanced technical knowledge of medicine and some who declare themselves to be homosexual were like the people of Lot? Come on! that is backwards thinking. Technology and the amount of knowledge we have and the variety of personalities we have today surely cannot be comparable to those who lived in that time. Sure, there are certain behaviors we may find horrid comparable to those individuals but to compare killers pedophiles to homosexuals is simply absurd.
 
Again, in the same way, by simply saying piety is synonymous with evil, and belief is synonymous with disbelief, that Muslims are synonymous with homosexuals is an unfair association since religious mentalities between believers from those of atheists, pagans, criminals, sexual perverts, pedophiles, rapists, fornicating homosexuals, are drastically different -
 
Fareeda you honestly have no idea what you are talking about and a clue to the issue at hand. It is almost like you really have no logical sense or coprehension of the subject matter. I suggest with sincerity, to read on the issue. Read on the psychological reports on homosexuality and challenge your own beliefs with the reports of the American Psychological Association or the American Psychiartic Association.
 
What a pity you are wrong again. On what scientific basis do you assert that religious persons are non-scientific? Since when was NARTH non-Scientific? Someone doesn't get a graduation and is called a Doctor, unless they have studied science.
 
Narth is not even reputable much less accepted by the American Psychological Association which has completed way more research and way more studies than some company whose main theme is "sexual reorientation." One of the links you provided was religiously based and the  other I along with others in the scientific community would call psuedo-psychology would not even consider it a source. Besides there is only few empirical evidence presented or current that shows reports of "ex-gays" going through sexual reorientation (Professional Psychology: Research and Practice. 2002 Jun Vol 33(3) 242-248).
 
Oh really? Surely, you don't expect everyone to believe only you are correct? How unscientific.  I am sure that is what they call being arrogant. And no, people are not going to be bullied or pushed around or forced into believing your fantasties and dogma, only because, you say so.  
 
Get your facts right next time - if you don't want to be humiliated any further.
 
So far the only defense you have presented was Quranic verse which you failed to explain in detail how it supports your argument. you called Homosexuality a myth (obviously echoing the websites beliefs). I provided detailed rebuttal using only the APA pamphlet. No response. You linked homosexuality with serial killers i've provided a rebuttal for that no response.
 
If I showed you my own personal finds I'd be afraid you would even get the scientific jargon we use to even understand what we are saying. So why should I waste time and effort to show you actual scientific/psychological findings? It is quite obvious your mind is set on the issue. My only focus is to discuss some of the intolerant attitudes we face within the community. I only called you intolerant as soon as you started making claims that are considered socially intolerant.
 
>>Lastly, it will be a hard sell on any site where members have moral values to expect them to become totally comfortable with that which is against their faith - keeping in mind that most are in fact tolerant, however the degree to which they are tolerant will differ depending upon the circumstances involved.<<<
 
Agreed and you are right to say that the level of tolerance idffers from person to person. but there are things in the world we tolerate that we don't give great values to but are greatly valuable themselves. for instance I may not agree or like polytheism as a psiritual belief but I can tolerate those who believe in it. just because I am commanded to not believe in it or to not worship dieties aside from God doesn't mean I should not treat others with respect. I am definitely not saying here All muslims do not do this. I'm saying that from what has transpired here and from what I've seen and evaluated there is some intolerance going on here when it comes to the subject of homosexuality. Do I expect some criticism to this, of course but this is no different when someone is willing to challenge someone's beliefs. Besides, why tolerate Christianity but not gays? Why tolerate a faith that many muslims believe is polytheistic philosophically yet we can live among them? Because they are the people of the book? My challenge is why not the same for those who are sexually differen than we? That is my question.
 
I highly doubt anyone here concerning the issue has a rebuttal...
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Truth_light24
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 11:38pm
Clap mashallah Fareeda..that great!!! Clap Thumbs%20Up

-------------
And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. Quran33:59


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 2:19am
Israfil, are you a Muslim or not? If not then what are doing coming here and forcing us to listen to your dictates on homosexuality? Follow what you want and allow us to follow our faith, Islam. 
 
You are full of chauvanist attacks and your post sounds very illogical and prejudiced. It seems that you just want to manipulate this board to promote promiscuity and homosexuality. You have not read my comments or researched the links on scientific evidence against homosexuality that I posted, but only attacked all my posts even when it is crystal clear now that homosexuality is a disorder. It is very foolish of you, Israfil to say all those scientists in NARTH are wrong.
 
http://www.narth.com/menus/officers.html - http://www.narth.com/menus/officers.html
 
You should be careful before scandalizing a full team of educated scientists. They have far more qualifications than you and I. So, some humility will benefit you, as you only make yourself appear really ridiculous when you reject scientific and medical research. And sisnce you quoted me out of context, I am re-pasting my full response to you again. You haven't bothered reading or researching the evidence but just here to debunk and attack anyone who disagrees with you.
 
Homosexuals living together as man and wife and dressing and acting as the opposite sex is strictly forbidden in Islam.  See the hadiths on homosexuality quoted here: http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexuality.htm - Islam & Homosexuality .
 
Abu Hurayrah said: “The Messenger of Allaah  (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed the man who wears women’s clothes, and the woman who wears men’s clothes.”  (Reported by Abu Dawud, 4/355; see also Saheeh al-Jaami', 5071)
 
See these verses in the Quran:
 
"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81
 
"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165
 
I haven't read the rest of your post as I got bored half way. So as the http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/109.qmt.html - Quran says to you is your way and to me is mine .
 
There is no such a thing as gay or lesbian marriage in Islam and never will be. Once homosexulaity is rampant there will be no law preventing bestiality or pedophilia and it will be open as pronography is today. There are valid hadiths about our prophet who addressed gays and lesbians while preforming sexual acts as: adulterers. I do not have the references but you may search them in Bukhari & Muslim and others. Here is an excerpt from Islam Online:
 
"Homosexuality, moreover, is an abomination and a grave sin. In Hadith, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, clarifies the gravity of this abomination by saying: “Allah curses the one who does the actions (homosexual practices) of the people of Lut” repeating it three times; and he said in another Hadith: “If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers.” Here, he considered homosexuality tantamount to adultery in relation to the Shari’ah punishments because it is an abomination on the one hand and the definition of adultery applies to it on the other hand."
 
See Islam Online: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545556 - Death Fall As Punishment For Homiosexuality
 
Think for a minute if homosexuality was prevalent throught time and in all societies then you wouldn't exist today.
 
“And Allah has made for you from yourselves mates and has made for you from your mates sons and grandsons…” (Holy Quran 16:72).
 
If everyone followed your opinion, Israfil and they accepted homosexuality as the norm then in a very short period of time we would all be extinct, so rather than calling yourself Israfil, instead it would have been far more appropriate if you had chosen the name Israel, the Angel of Death.
 
Peace.
 
 
_______________________________________________
 
 
Here was my full response to Israfil:
 
Originally posted by Israfil

I love self-righteous people!
 
Speak for yourself. It seems you are a Non Muslim, Israfil, yet you have chosen a religious user name of a particularly, highly esteemed angel, in Islam, only to be sullied by your character online.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Iam not persuading you to believe as I! I'm merely making a point to be tolerant to people of this sexual orientation as human beings not accept what they do these are entirely two different things. I obviously and personally do not believe in practicing homosexuality but I can tolerate it ....
 
Be careful, you are retracting and self-contradicting your statements.
None of us said we are intolerant of others. Your friends can live as they like as long as they do not indoctrinate us with *their* "values"
 
Originally posted by Israfil

So would you say the doctor who is gay is like the person in the time of Lot?
 
Why, what makes you think there were no gay doctors at the time of Prophet Lot? 
 
So would you say the pedophile who gives charity is like a religious person such as Lot or prophet Muhammad pbuh? Would you say http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2135604.stm - the doctor who mass murdered his patients is decent as a believer in God and so you think he will go to paradise without judgment? 
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Again, by simply saying homosexuals are synonymous with evil like those people in the time of lot is an unfair association since the mentalities of that era has changed drastically..
 
Again, by simply saying piety is synonymous with evil, and belief is synonymous with disbelief, that Muslims are synonymous with homosexuals is an unfair association since religious mentalities between believers from those of atheists, pagans, criminals, sexual perverts, pedophiles, rapists, fornicating homosexuals, are drastically different - Just as Moses was different to Pharaoh, David to Goliath, Lot to Sodom & Gomorrah, Jesus was to Herod and Julius Caesar then so are believers different to atheists, pagans, criminals and those who commit sexual crime and obscenities.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Laws forbid gays and lesbians to get married not nature.  It is obvious if laws permitted gays and lesbians to get married then they would. There are many gays and lesbians who consider themselves "married" even though it is not recognized by law ...
 
How can you prove that 'nature' allows gays and lesbians to get married?
 
1. Do lesbians have the same reproductive systems as males and can gay men get pregnant and give birth to children?
 
Answer: - Obviously and Naturally, not!
 
2. Are the semen and the egg, the different sexual reproduction systems and genitals in males and females, are both systems found in gays or lesbians?
 
Answer: -Scientifically, not!
 
3. Do lesbian females have an erected male organ when they are attracted to another female? Do gay men suffer from PMS or morning sickness during pregnancy?
 
Answer: - Medically and psychologically, not!
 
Therefore, you are naturally and scientifically, medically and psychologically, completely and utterly wrong. God's Laws AND Nature forbid males and females to form gay and lesbian relationships or for them to be married.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

The above statement is non-sensical...
 
The most nonsensical sentence has to be yours about "nature" allowing homosexuality. To a Non-Muslim who doesn't believe in Allah or the Quran (or studied natural science for that matter) Twist the truth, turn myths into reality, sound nonsensical but blame it on others - you're a typical propagandist! I am sure scientific evidence also must sound nonsensical to you. 
 
Originally posted by Israfil

so I'm not sure what your point is here in that sentence...
 
It's called common sense - in case you didn't know.
 
Originally posted by Israfil

Religious postsor religious links are non-scientific I'm sorry. The basis of some religious findings are more inclined towards doctrinal than actual objective observations..
 
What a pity you are wrong again. On what scientific basis do you assert that religious persons are non-scientific? Since when was NARTH non-Scientific? Someone doesn't get a graduation and is called a Doctor, unless they have studied science.
 
Here are the links for you to check again.
 
http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2003/02/Article01.shtml - http://www.islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2003/02/Article01.shtml
 
http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html - http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html
 
Originally posted by Israfil

I've done research long enough to know the difference.
 
Oh really? Surely, you don't expect everyone to believe only you are correct? How unscientific.  I am sure that is what they call being arrogant. And no, people are not going to be bullied or pushed around or forced into believing your fantasies and dogma, only because, you say so.  
 
Get your facts right next time - if you don't want to be humiliated any further.
 


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 2:29am

Fareeda, Israfil is not asking you or anyone to believe he is the only correct person, only to give him the benefit of the doubt of what he brings across according to his many research.

I've been in many discussions about homosexuality and its always the same muslims are head strong in not believing in anything else that is presented in front of them, even if its natural and homosexuality spreads across the whole of the animal kingdom for we we humans are a part of.
 
You say this to Israfil "Your friends can live as they like as long as they do not indoctrinate me and others with "their values"" How about the religious folk do the same and not indoctrinate and say you are going to hell! Or God will punish you! 
 
The story of Lot and God destroying the city and that He doesn't like it, well that is God's place not yours or I. This story doesn't mean that we have to be mean or intolerant or hate.


-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 10:38am

Angel go and read our posts and study the researched evidence and links I have pasted before attacking. I am not going to repeat myself and I prefer it if you minded your own business and allowed others to speak up for themselves. What some other Muslims may do is not my buisiness and neither is it part of Islam to enforce religion onto others, as no one can compel anyone to follow Islam, see Quran 2:256.



Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 10:49am
Assalamu Alaikum,
 
Everyone,
 
Since it is General Islamic Matter section, please support your opinions pertaining to Islam with reliable evidence as not doing so may result in misrepresentation of the faith.
 
It is also equally important to comply with the guidelines.


-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:08pm
Thanks to all brothers and sisters, and to Sign Reader and True Light.
 
Jazak Allahkhair
 
Wasalam
 


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:02pm
Salams,
 
Hamza Yusuf discusses http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWYoJ3tcHG0&NR=1 - Homosexual Marriages  in this interview with Mark Lawson, posted on Youtube.


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:04pm

The People of Lut (as) And The City which was Turned Upside Down 

The people of Lut rejected (his) warning. We sent against them a violent Tornado with showers of stones, (which destroyed them), except Lut's household: them We delivered by early Dawn,- As a Grace from Us: thus do We reward those who give thanks. And (Lut) did warn them of Our Punishment, but they disputed about the Warning. (Surat al-Qamar: 33-36)

Both Lut (as)and Ibrahim (as) lived at the same time. Lut (as) was sent as a messenger to one of Ibrahim's (as) neighbouring communities. These people, as the Qur’an tells us, practiced a perversion unknown to the world up till then, namely sodomy. When Lut (as) told them to give up this perversion and brought them Allah's warning, they denied him, refused his prophethood, and carried on with their perversion. In the end, these people were destroyed by a dreadful disaster.

The city where Lut (as) resided is referred to as Sodom in the Old Testament. Being situated to the north of the Red Sea, this community is understood to have been destroyed just as it is written in the Qur’an. Archaeological studies reveal that the city is located in the area of the Dead Sea which stretches along the Palestine-Jordan border.

Before examining the remains of this disaster, we shall examine why the people of Lut (as) were punished in this fashion. The Qur’an tells how Lut (as) warned his people and what they said in reply;

The people of Lut rejected the messengers. Behold, their brother Lut said to them: "Will ye not fear (Allah)? I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. So fear Allah and obey me. No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds. Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!"

He said: "I do detest your doings." (Surat ash-Shu’ara: 160-168)

The people of Lut (as) threatened him in response to his inviting them to the right way. His people detested him because of his showing them the right way, and wanted to banish both him and the other believers beside him. In other verses, the event is told as follows:

We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" (Surat al-A‘raf: 80-82)

Lut (as)called his people to an obvious truth and warned them explicitly, but his people did not heed any warnings whatsoever and continued to reject him and to deny the penalty of which he told them.

And (remember) Lut: "Behold" he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway? And practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." (Surat al-Ankaboot: 28-29)

Receiving the above answer from his people, Lut asked for the help of Allah,

He said: "O my Lord! help Thou me against people who do mischief!" (Surat al-Ankaboot: 30)

"O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!" (Surat ash-Shu’ara: 169)

Upon Lut’s (as) prayer, Allah sent two angels in the form of men. These angels visited Ibrahim (as)before coming to Lut (as). Giving Ibrahim (as) the good news that his wife would give birth to an infant, the messengers explained the reason for their being sent: the insolent people of Lut (as) were to be destroyed.

(Ibrahim) said: "And what, O ye Messengers, is your errand (now)?" They said, "We have been sent to a people (deep) in sin; To bring on, on them, (a shower of) stones of clay (brimstone), Marked as from thy Lord for those who trespass beyond bounds." (Surat adh-Dhariyat: 31-34)

Excepting the adherents of Lut: them we are certainly (charged) to save (from harm) - All - Except his wife, who, We have ascertained, will be among those who will lag behind. (Surat al-Hijr: 59-60)

After leaving Ibrahim’s (as) company, the angels, who were sent as messengers, came to Lut (as). Not having recognised the messengers, Lut (as) first became anxious, but then understood that they were sent by Allah:

When Our messengers came to Lut, he was grieved on their account and felt himself powerless (to protect) them. He said: "This is a distressful day." (Surah Hud: 77)

He said: "Ye appear to be uncommon folk." They said: "Yea, we have come to thee to accomplish that of which they doubt. We have brought to thee that which is inevitably due, and assuredly we tell the truth. Then travel by night with thy household, when a portion of the night (yet remains), and do thou bring up the rear: let no one amongst you look back, but pass on whither ye are ordered." And We made known this decree to him, that the last remnants of those (sinners) should be cut off by the morning. (Surat al-Hijr: 62-66)

Meanwhile, his people had learned that Lut (as) had visitors. They did not hesitate to approach these visitors perversely as they had approached others before. They encircled the house. Being afraid for his visitors, Lut (as) addressed his people as follows:

Lut said: "These are my guests: disgrace me not: But fear Allah, and shame me not." (Surat al-Hijr: 68-69)

The people of Lut retorted:

They said: "Did we not forbid thee (to speak) for all and sundry?" (Surat al-Hijr: 70)

Thinking that he and his visitors subjected to evil treatment, Lut said:

"Would that I had power to suppress you or that I could betake myself to some powerful support." (Surah Hud: 80)

His "visitors" reminded him that they were the messengers of Allah and said:

(The Messengers) said: "O Lut! We are Messengers from thy Lord! By no means shall they reach thee! now travel with thy family while yet a part of the night remains, and let not any of you look back: but thy wife (will remain behind): To her will happen what happens to the people. Morning is their time appointed: Is not the morning nigh?" (Surah Hud: 81)

When the perversity of the city people reached its fullest extent, Allah saved Lut (as) by means of the angels. In the morning, his people were destroyed by the disaster of which Lut (as) had informed them in advance.

And they even sought to snatch away his guests from him, but We blinded their eyes. (They heard:) "Now taste ye My Wrath and My Warning." Early on the morrow an abiding Punishment seized them. (Surat al-Qamar: 37-38)

The verses describe the destruction of this people as follows:

But the (mighty) Blast overtook them before morning, And We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay. Behold! in this are Signs for those who by tokens do understand. And the (cities were) right on the high-road. (Surat al-Hijr: 73-76)

When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer,-Marked as from thy Lord: Nor are they ever far from those who do wrong! (Surah Hud: 82-83)

But the rest We destroyed utterly. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)! : Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful. (Surat ash-Shu’ara: 172-175)

When the people were destroyed, only Lut (as) and the believers, who were only as many as one "household", were saved. Lut’s (as) wife did not believe either and she was also destroyed.

We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?
For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."
And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!"
But we saved him and his family, except his wife: she was of those who legged behind.
And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime! (Surat al-A‘raf: 80-84)

Thus, Prophet Lut (as) was saved along with the believers and his family with the exception of his wife. As described in the Old Testament, he emigrated with Ibrahim (as). As for the perverted people, they were destroyed and their dwellings were razed to the ground.

“The Obvious Signs” in the Lake of Lut

One of the verses of Surah Hud clearly states the kind of disaster that befell the people of Lut (as). "When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer". (Surah Hud: 82)


A satellite photograph of the region where the people of Lut (as) lived.

The statement of "turning (the cities) upside down" implies that the region was totally destroyed by a violent earthquake. Accordingly, The Lake of Lut, where the destruction took place, bears "obvious" evidence of such a disaster.

We quote German archaeologist Werner Keller: 

    Together with the base of this mighty fissure, which runs precisely through this area, the Vale of Siddim, including Sodom and Gomorrah, plunged one day into the abyss. Their destruction came about through a great earthquake which was probably accompanied by explosions, lightning, issue of natural gas and general conflagration. http://www.harunyahya.com/pernat13.php#13 - 13

As a matter of fact, the Lake of Lut, or the Dead Sea as it is otherwise known, is located right on the top of an active seismic region, that is, an earthquake zone:

    The base of the dead sea is located with a tectonic rooted downfall. This valley is located in a tension stretching between the Taberiye Lake in the north, and mid of Arabah Valley in the south. http://www.harunyahya.com/pernat13.php#14 - 14


The Lake of Lut, or Dead Sea as otherwise called.

The event was expressed as "we rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer" in the last part of the verse. This is in all probability meant to be the volcanic explosion that took place on the banks of the Lake of Lut, and because of which the rocks and stones that erupted were in a "baked form". (The same event is related in the verse 173 of Surat ash-Shu’ara as "We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)!")

In relation to this subject, Werner Keller writes:  

An illustration showing the volcanic eruption and the collapse that followed it, which caused the whole people to disappear.

These lava and basalt layers constitute the greatest evidence that a volcanic explosion and earthquake had once taken place here. The catastrophe depicted in the following expression as "we rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer" in the Qur’an most probably points to this volcanic explosion, and Allah knows best. The expression "When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down" which occurs in the same verse, must be referring to the earthquake which caused volcanoes to erupt over the surface of the earth with devastating impact, and to the fissures and debris brought by it, and only Allah knows the truth of it.

The "obvious signs" conveyed by the Lake of Lut are indeed very interesting. In general, the events which are related in the Qur’an take place in the Middle East, the Arabian Peninsula and Egypt. Right in the middle of these lands, is the Lake of Lut. The Lake of Lut, as well as the incidents that have taken place around it, deserves attention geologically. The Lake is approximately 400 metres below the surface of the Mediterranean. Since the deepest point in the Lake is 400 metres, the bottom of the Lake is 800 metres below the surface of the Mediterranean. This is the lowest point on the earth. In other areas which are lower than sea level, the depth is at most 100 metres. Another property of the Lake of Lut is that the salt content of its water is very high, the density being nearly 30%. Because of this, no living organism, such as fish or moss, can survive in this lake. This is why the Lake of Lut is called the "Dead Sea" in Western literature.

 


A distant view of the Lake of Lut

The incident of Lut’s (as)people, which is recounted in the Qur’an, occurred around 1800 BC according to estimates. Based on his archaeological and geological researches, the German researcher Werner Keller noted that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were in fact located in the Siddim Valley which was the region at the furthest and lowest end of the Lake of Lut, and that there were once big and widely inhabited sites in those regions.

The most interesting structural characteristic of the Lake of Lut is evidence showing how the disaster incidence recounted in the Qur’an took place:  

On the eastern shore of the Dead Sea the peninsula of El-Lisan protrudes like a tongue far into the water. El-Lisan means "the tongue" in Arabic. Unseen from the land the ground falls away here under the surface of the water at a prodigious angle, dividing the sea into two parts. To the right of the peninsula the ground slopes sharply down to a depth of 1200 feet. On the left of the peninsula the water remains remarkably shallow. Soundings taken in the last few years established depths of only fifty to sixty feet. That extraordinary shallow part of the Dead Sea, from the peninsula El-Lisan to the southernmost tip, was the Vale of Siddim. http://www.harunyahya.com/pernat13.php#16 - 16

Werner Keller noted that this shallow part, which was discovered to have formed subsequently, was the outcome of the aforementioned earthquake and the massive collapse this earthquake had caused. This was the place where Sodom and Gomorrah were situated, that is, where Lut’s (as) people lived.


An overhead view of the mountains around the Lake of Lut.

Once, it was possible to cross this region by walking. However, now, the Vale of Siddim, where Sodom and Gomorrah were once situated, is covered by the flat surface of the lower part of the Dead Sea. The collapse of the base as a result of the dreadful catastrophe that came to pass in the beginning of the second millennium BC, caused salt water from the north to flow into this recently formed cavity and filled the basin with salty water.

The traces of Lut’s (as) people are visible… When one takes a rowing boat across the Lake of Lut to the southernmost point, if the sun is shining in the right direction, one sees something quite fantastic. Some distance from the shore and clearly visible under the surface of the water, there are the outlines of the forests which the extraordinarily high salt content of the Dead Sea preserved. The trunks and roots in the shimmering green water are very ancient. The Siddim valley, where these trees were once in blossom green foliage covered their twigs and branches, was one of the most beautiful locations in the region.


Some of the remains of the city, which had slipped into the lake, were found on the banks of the lake. These remains showed that the people of Lut had quite a high standard of life.

The mechanical aspect of the disaster that befell the people of Lut (as) is revealed by the researches of the geologists. These reveal that the earthquake which destroyed the people of Lut (as) came about as a consequence of a fault line in the earth, along the 190-kilometre distance making up the bed of the River Sheri’at. River Sheri’at makes a fall of 180 metres in total. Both this and the fact that the Lake of Lut is 400 metres below sea level are two important pieces of evidence showing that an enormous geological event once took place here.

The interesting structure of the River of Sheri’at and the Lake of Lut make up only a small part of the crack or split passing from this region of the earth. The condition and length of this crack have only recently been discovered.


The destruction of the people of Lut (as) has inspired many painters. An example is given above.

The fault starts from the outskirts of Mount Taurus, stretches to the southern shores of the Lake of Lut and proceeds over the Arabian desert to the Gulf of Aqaba and continues across the Red Sea, ending up in Africa. Along the length of it, strong volcanic activities are observed. Black basalt and lava exist in the Galilee Mountains in Israel, high plain regions of Jordan, the Gulf of Aqaba and other areas nearby.

All these remains and geographical evidences show that a catastrophic geological event took place in the Lake of Lut. Werner Keller writes:

Together with the base of this mighty fissure, which runs precisely through this area, the Vale of Siddim, including Sodom and Gomorrah, plunged one day into the abyss. Their destruction came about through a great earthquake which was probably accompanied by explosions, lightning, issue of natural gas and general conflagration. The subsidence released volcanic forces that had been lying dormant deep down along the whole length of the fracture. In the upper valley of the Jordan near Bashan there are still towering craters of extinct volcanoes; great stretches of lava and deep layers of basalt have been deposited on the limestone surface. http://www.harunyahya.com/pernat13.php#17 - 17  

National Geographic makes the following comment:

The mount of Sodom, a barren wasteland, rises sharply above the dead sea. No one has ever found the destroyed cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, but scholars believe that they stood in the Vale of Siddim across from these cliffs. Possibly flood waters of the Dead Sea engulfed them following an earthquake. http://www.harunyahya.com/pernat13.php#18 - 18


Above is a picture representing the luxury and prosperity of the city of Pompeii before the disaster. 

Pompeii Had a Similar End 

The Qur’an tells us in the following verses that there is no change in Allah’s laws:

They swore their strongest oaths by Allah that if a warner came to them, they would follow his guidance better than any (other) of the Peoples: But when a warner came to them, it has only increased their flight (from righteousness) - On account of their arrogance in the land and their plotting of Evil, but the plotting of Evil will hem in only the authors thereof. Now are they but looking for the way the ancients were dealt with? But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing). (Surat al-Fatir: 42-43)

Yes, "no change will be found in Allah’s way (rules)". Everybody, who stands against His laws and rebels against Him, is subject to the same divine law. Pompeii, the symbol of the degeneration of the Roman Empire, was also involved in sexual perversity. Its end was similar to that of the people of Lut (as).

The destruction of Pompeii came by means of the eruption of the volcano Vesuvius.

The volcano Vesuvius is the symbol of Italy, primarily the city of Naples. Remaining silent for the last two millennia, Vesuvius is named the "Mountain of Warning". It is noteworthy that Vesuvius is known as such. The disaster that befell Sodom and Gomorrah is very similar to the disaster that destroyed Pompeii.


The pictures above are petrified corpses unearthed in excavations made in Pompeii.

 

To the right of Vesuvius lies Naples and to the east lies Pompeii. The lava and ash of a huge volcanic eruption, that happened thousands of years ago, caught the inhabitants of that city. The disaster happened so suddenly that everything in the town was caught in the middle of its everyday life and remains today exactly as it was two millennia ago. It is as if the time had been frozen.

The removal of Pompeii from the face of the earth by such a disaster was not purposeless. The historical record shows that the city was exactly the centre of dissipation and perversity. The city was marked by a rise in prostitution to such an extent that even the number of brothels was not known.

But the lava of Vesuvius wiped the whole city off the map in a single moment. The most interesting aspect of the event is that nobody escaped despite the terrible violence of the eruption of Vesuvius. It is almost like they did not even notice the catastrophe, as if they were charmed. A family eating their meal were petrified right at that moment. Numerous petrified couples were found in the act of intercourse. The most interesting thing is that there were couples of the same sex and couples of young boys and girls. The faces of some of the petrified human corpses unearthed from Pompeii were unharmed. The general expression on those faces was bewilderment.


Other examples of petrified human corpses uncovered among the remains of Pompeii

Here lies the most incomprehensible aspect of the calamity. How did thousands of people wait to be caught by death without seeing and hearing anything?

This aspect of the event shows that the disappearance of Pompeii was similar to the destructive events mentioned in the Qur’an, because the Qur’an particularly points to "sudden annihilation" while relating these events. For example, the "inhabitants of the city" described in Surah Ya-Sin died all at once in a single moment. The situation is told as follows: 

It was no more than a single mighty Blast, and behold! they were (like ashes) quenched and silent. (Surah Ya-Sin: 29)


Some other examples of petrified human corpses uncovered at Pompeii. The picture on the left is a very good example of how instantaneous the disaster was.

In Surat al-Qamar, again the "instantaneous annihilation" is emphasised when the destruction of Thamud is recounted:

For We sent against them a single Mighty Blast, and they became like the dry stubble used by one who pens cattle. (Surat al-Qamar: 31)

The death of the people of Pompeii took place instantaneously as just as the events recounted in the above verses.

Despite all of this, things have not changed much where Pompeii once stood. The districts of Naples where debauchery prevails do not fall short of those licentious districts of Pompeii. The Island of Capri is a base where homosexuals and nudists reside and is represented as a "Homosexual paradise" in tourist commercials. Not only on Capri and in Italy, but in nearly all the world, a similar moral degeneration is at work and people insist on not learning from the awful experiences of past peoples.

http://www.harunyahya.com/pernat13.php - http://www.harunyahya.com/pernat13.php


Posted By: aka2x2
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:34pm

The logic of the original post is flawed. If this argument is accepted then one might argue that murderers, child molesters, and rapists deserve tolerance as well.

 

Homosexuality is legal in the US but it is a sin in Islam. The American society and legislature have made homosexuality legal, but they cannot make it Halal. Only Allah (swt) has the authority to make Halal and Haram.

 

HHMuslims are not required to be tolerant of sin. Asking us to do otherwise misses the whole point of submitting to God’s will as opposed to the whims of the society.



-------------

Respectfully
aka2x2


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by aka2x2

The logic of the original post is flawed. If this argument is accepted then one might argue that murderers, child molesters, and rapists deserve tolerance as well.
 
Let me state the obvious, again: murders, child molester and rapists hurt other people.  Homosexuals do not.
 
HHMuslims are not required to be tolerant of sin. Asking us to do otherwise misses the whole point of submitting to God’s will as opposed to the whims of the society.
What does that mean in practice?  What are you being asked to do, exactly, that you are unwilling to do?


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 9:50pm
Obviously I'm not concerned with Fareeda's pictorials as they prove nothing to the argument at hand.
 
Israfil, are you a Muslim or not? If not then what are doing coming here and forcing us to listen to your dictates on homosexuality? Follow what you want and allow us to follow our faith, Islam. 
 
This question is redudant and tiresome. You have obviously characterized me as a "non-muslim" so what is the difference whether I state what I am? This will not change your position.
 
You are full of chauvanist attacks and your post sounds very illogical and prejudiced. It seems that you just want to manipulate this board to promote promiscuity and homosexuality.
 
Calling me whatever is your opinion and frankly, without merit. but as far as manipulation is concerned I have done none. You are claiming that I am promoting homosexual promiscuity when you have not provided evidence that such a sexual orientation leads that type of behavior. heterosexual men with multiple wives, concubines, men who cheat I don't know I guess homosexuals are the only ones who are promiscuous.
 
You have not read my comments or researched the links on scientific evidence against homosexuality that I posted, but only attacked all my posts even when it is crystal clear now that homosexuality is a disorder. It is very foolish of you, Israfil to say all those scientists in NARTH are wrong.
 
I read the partial article on the Islamic website you've provided. The obvious response from me is that I cannot hold their views valid as it is religious and biased. Many religious scholars have not done the independent studies to prove this. they leave it up to other researchers with low to none empirical evidence to advance their beliefs. I've seen this in many religious articles concerning homosexuality and Catholicism and I see no difference here on Islamic weblinks. Simply stating that individuals who are gay and can receive therapy for that stigmatizes those who have legitimate feelings of their sexuality and in turn considers persons who are gay unethical and immoral. This is wrong and unanimously rejected therapy in the APA (American Psychological Association). I am a member of APA and as I mentioned in previous posts the APA does not accept the standards of Narth. Aklthough they do in fact do research their studies on "ex-gays" and reparitive therapy are not agreed upon by researchers. Not only are these studies done with small samples, there is not enough to generalize the findings on a larger scale See ref: http://0-web.ebscohost.com.torofind.csudh.edu/ehost/pdf?vid=4&hid=105&sid=e639b0ff-2837-47f8-9d8d-f857594653bc%40sessionmgr103 - http://0-web.ebscohost.com.torofind.csudh.edu/ehost/pdf?vid=4&hid=105&sid=e639b0ff-2837-47f8-9d8d-f857594653bc%40sessionmgr103
 
In addition, many of these repartive therapies have religious variables that influence the change in sexual reorientation see another article concerning this matter : http://0-web.ebscohost.com.torofind.csudh.edu/ehost/pdf?vid=5&hid=105&sid=e639b0ff-2837-47f8-9d8d-f857594653bc%40sessionmgr103 - http://0-web.ebscohost.com.torofind.csudh.edu/ehost/pdf?vid=5&hid=105&sid=e639b0ff-2837-47f8-9d8d-f857594653bc%40sessionmgr103
 
You should be careful before scandalizing a full team of educated scientists. They have far more qualifications than you and I.
 
Any scientist can call themselves a researcher. It is my duty as a researcher myself to chanllenge the validity of these findings. like I said there is not enough evidence to support NARTH's theories if you read the articles that I've listed you'll see.
 
Homosexuals living together as man and wife and dressing and acting as the opposite sex is strictly forbidden in Islam.
 
Fareeda the above bold is a pure example of your ignorance of sexual orientation. First off, dressing as the opposite sex while being of that particular sex is called "cross-dressing" not homosexuality. Sure there are certain homosexual  persons who fulfill those roles but you cannot prove that this sexual orientation shows a causality of such. For example if a gay man decides to dress up as a woman for whatever reason it is because he is trying to psychologically speaking fulfill the role of a typical "woman."
 
From your website:

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."

I kinda laughed at that. I wish the authors explained more on what that meant.
 
"Lesbianism by women is adultery between them." (Tabarani, sahih)"
 
I highly doubt the word "lesbianism" was a word known back then.
 
What is sinful in homosexuality is the actual sexual act between the couple of a similar sex.
 
This is the problem here in your article is that when one thinks of homosexuality you think of "gay sex." Who is the perverted here? What if there are individuals who are homosexual but are not sexually active? After all you have "elderly couples" who are homosexual who are not sexually active.
 
One could argue from a biologixcal standpoint God created all mammals heterosexual for the purpose of replenishing the population. But from a Cognitive standpoint one can say that although our biological processes are evident, they do not necessarily mean we are to be with the opposite sex. After all we see homosexuality in the animal kingdom:
 
Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate
 

Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html - http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

If homosexuality is so horrible, why would god allow this affect both humans and animals? Since animals have no rational capacity as humans why do both have the similar behaviors when it comes to companionship?
 
Think for a minute if homosexuality was prevalent throught time and in all societies then you wouldn't exist today.
 
This is a no brainer. Obviously if homosexuality was more evident then heterosexuality then human population would dwindle to near extinction. Duh!
 
If everyone followed your opinion, Israfil and they accepted homosexuality as the norm then in a very short period of time we would all be extinct, so rather than calling yourself Israfil, instead it would have been far more appropriate if you had chosen the name Israel, the Angel of Death.
 
You'd be dumb to even think that is an insult. If the world was as intolerant as you....well...actually a lot of people in the world do think like you. no wonder humans treat each other like crap.
 
 

The logic of the original post is flawed. If this argument is accepted then one might argue that murderers, child molesters, and rapists deserve tolerance as well.

 
aka2x2 give me a break write more poetry and not this garb. As Ron rightly points out you cannot make one's sexual orientation synonymous with someone who deliberately takes another persons life. This is laughable thinking.
 

Homosexuality is legal in the US but it is a sin in Islam. The American society and legislature have made homosexuality legal, but they cannot make it Halal. Only Allah (swt) has the authority to make Halal and Haram.

 
By definition of "Halaal" if the United States has not outlawed homosexuality, then in essence it is making it "Halaal" because the law is allowing homosexuals to behave accordingly. the only think NOT recognized by the courts are gay marriage and that is changing. you need to read more.
 
Muslims are not required to be tolerant of sin. Asking us to do otherwise misses the whole point of submitting to God’s will as opposed to the whims of the society.
 
Funny but if we consider the Christians to sin when they worship Jesus and not God the Creator we tolerate them. I don't see a difference in this type of  thinking. I'm merely saying, in essence despite the title of thread that we should tolerate the differences of humans.


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 1:19am

To AK2X2

I totally agree with you on the basis of the responsibility of Sin. What some users here don't understand or deliberately ignore is the fact that Islam is against homosexuality, therfore, Muslims can not engage in homosexuality, it is a sin. Religion makes no difference to whether you are a good scientist, or or not.  In fact religion has been a boost to scientific research as 'adab' (in arabic) has to be strictly followed in scientific methodology. A complacent, fraudulant liar can never be an unbiased, research scientist or a devoted doctor promoting good health. This is why you will see among evolutionists themselves http://www.atenizo.org/evolution-quotes.htm - who denounce the hypothesis of Charles Darwin and a whole http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html - team of scientists in Narth speaking out the truth against abnormal homosexual behaviour, because it is unatural and doesn't agree to the inner 'fitrah', the natural disposition to be pure within us which Allah swt created and because speaking the truth and standing for justice is a part and parcel of human beings and is has to be included in scientific opinion when partaking in research.
 
Also yes the concept of religious tolerance and freedom, allowing people to believe what they want is something that fascists and dictators never want to promote. Although they live in a free society, and seem to want to grab the whole world, they can never really get round accepting those who are different from them allowing them to live in peace in accordance to their human rights.
 
This is why Allah swt says to us to strive against oppression, because there is no compulsion in religion, and we are entitled to live as Muslims and commit ourselves to our religious worship of Allah, to follow our holy scripture, the Quran no matter how much the disbelievers want to be against us.
 
Finally, yes we can still have great scientists who believe in the authority of God the creator of the universe and follow His divine laws, rather than listening and responding to casual chavanist bloggers on the net!
 
 


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 2:03am
Gay activists have strenuously argued that there is no connection between homosexuality and the sexual abuse of children. They point out that the majority of child molestation cases are by heterosexuals. But they neglect a pivotal fact: Homosexuals comprise only a small percentage of the population, yet account for an extraordinarily high percentage of offenses against children.
 
See: 
 
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Sodomy/pedophilia_and_homosexuals.htm - Pedophilia more common among 'gays'  
 
http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/three.php - Exposed: Homosexual Child Molesters
 
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/865615/posts - Homosexuals and the Pedophile Connection      
 
http://www.narth.com/docs/listen.html - Listen to Ex-Gays, Too
 
A NARTH Member sent the following letter to a call-in radio show, "Love Line," hosted by a psychotherapist named Dr. Drew. As an ex-gay man himself, our reader was disturbed that Dr. Drew had a one-sided understanding of the homosexual condition. This insightful struggler notes that people should not necessarily act on what or who they are attracted to, because those attractions may be rooted in a deficit cannot be fulfilled within a sexual relationship.
 


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 2:53am
Watch these:
 
http://www.perishednations.com/ - http://www.perishednations.com/ http://www.perishednations.com/ -
 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cxzaJIzm__4 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=cxzaJIzm__4
 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VgDs6lf9A30 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=VgDs6lf9A30
 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cxzaJIzm__4 -  


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 7:53am

The reason I'm stating these reason here is because I've notice that even today some f our languages have rendered themselves intolerant towards others. I noticed mean unwilling to give other men hugs they do not want to be categorized and labeled as being a "fag" which I might say the latter is an intolerant and inappropriate word to denote homosexuals.

 

Israfil, that is actually western culture. When I was in Pakistan the men held arms and hands ALL the time. Probably did that more then with family female relatives. It was an eye-opener for me as a guest. I was staring at them! For others, no big deal. Because in Islam you don’t really show affection for the opposite sex in public. Maybe hold hands.. but again, it goes back to the public vs. private concept of sexuality.

 

So how do we explain this? By helping them fight against a possible biological urge? By praying for them? By telling them to repent to God? Isn't it a bigger crime for one to deny one's trueself?

 

See that is a different type of notion.. about “denying one’s true self.” Yes one should in many cases. The obligation, if you have certain values is to love Allah first and foremost. This life is an illusion. Now people don’t have this as their value system then so be it. But its like, there are things I “like” that I refrain from doing as it is not TRULY helpful to me.  Its hard to explain. But its like the man who hits 40. His wife is older and bore his children. Maybe got a bit out of shape. His “true self” says I want a younger, prettier wife. What does he do? He leaves her and finds a young woman. Just as an example. Now in Islam it is not about this life, but the afterlife. And yes, maybe he can find a greater reason to do the “right thing.”  We view happiness as a “right.” But how we define “happiness” is so tied up to pleasing ourselves. That is one world view. Another view is that when I please and obey people, I please Allah. The binds that tie people are deeper. Not about “me” but about others.    

 

And, what would happen to these folks if they were only in a place with the opposite sex? Say a gay man with only women? Would he sleep with them, or deny himself sex for really long periods of time??

 

And really, whether “sexuality” is socially controlled or created is irrelevant in that for Muslims, society IS geared towards a certain dynamic and Muslims feel it should be that way. It is what we are told to do by the Quran and Sunnah. Like why people don’t “date” or men and women pray in separate sections or areas. There is purpose.

 

Also…

 

1. putting homosexualtiy with pedophila and rape are not the same. For the issue is consent and violence. In rape as in pedophilia, the woman (or man in rape) and young children are not giving their consent. So on that level they are separate.  All might be considered acts against God, but not all are considered acts against innocent people (unless it is rape)

 

2. There is the angle of private vs. public. There are all types of "deviant" behavior. All over the world. As we know, it is Allah's to judge. But what is different, I think, is the public nature of sexuality of all forms as we see ehre in the west. What two people do in their bedroom is up to them. But when it becomes public... then it is an issue. And maybe as the west is so publically sexualized that people who are gay want they same as everyone else.

 

3. one may have "feelings" but the question is action upon them. If I like to drink I should refrain. And as been pointed out, yes they may not be too keen on having sex with the oppostie sex, but they still can.  We are not meant to be "happy" per say in this world. We all have different trials. The people in Burma face one now, the people in war town countries faace them, people with diseases face them, people who need mor self-control face them.  Unfortunately society is about the here and now, my "pleasures" and going for them are constantly stimulated. And there is no discipline. So to think someone who has different ideas should refrain from the sexualized culture.. well... they are just as confused by it all as many people are.

 

4. When speaking about tolerance.. the  question always arises as to what is acceptable in any culture.. or group. For instance, if going to the masjid, there are probably men who abuse their wives. Yet they are tolerated.. Or there are people who go to clubs and sleep around with the opposite sex. And yet the family does not disown them?  But will an openly gay couple be accepted? No.  I am not passing  judgement, just thinking a few thoughts.



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: aka2x2
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 10:06am

Ron

You said “what are you asked to do?”

Well we are asked to condone/tolerate or at least keep silent about homosexuality. As I have stated before this is not in our authority to give. Allah made it a sin and He is the only one who can change the verdict on that. I am sure He had his reasons.

 

However, I must also point out that as a Citizen/Muslim I am not required to uncover, judge, or punish homosexuals any more than I am required to act regarding other sinners.

 

Your argument about Homosexuals not hurting anyone does not hold water. Pedophiles don’t think they are hurting anyone. They think kids like having sex with them. Necrophilia certainly does not hurt anyone living. Sex with animals could be explained away by saying the other party is not human and does not have any rights…etc…etc.

 

Whether you hurt the other party or not does not determine if something is a sin or not.

 

Israfil,

Please don’t make me feel tired all over.

Allah made Homosexuality Haram in the Quran when He told the story of Lot and his people. The fact that the act is not illegal in America does not “make it Halal by definition”.

 

I hope you’ll take a piece of advice from me:

 

Do not cherry pick from Islam to support your own sense of right and wrong; instead see what is in the Quran and try to follow it. Otherwise, you are on a very slippery slope.

 

I have said my piece.

Go in peace you all.



-------------

Respectfully
aka2x2


Posted By: fareeda
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 10:44am
Watch these:
 
http://www.perishednations.com/ - http://www.perishednations.com/ http://www.perishednations.com/ -
 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cxzaJIzm__4 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=cxzaJIzm__4
 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VgDs6lf9A30 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=VgDs6lf9A30
 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=cxzaJIzm__4 -  


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 10:45am

Assalamu Alaikum,

Keeping in mind the sensitivities and objectives of the forum, and also due to several repetitive discussions on the topic in the past as described earlier, this topic, in any form, will no longer be allowed to be discussed anywhere; any violation in this matter will be considered very serious, and your support and cooperation in this regard would be highly appreciated.

For further readings, you may refer to the following links. You may also refer to the past threads on the topic or ask a scholar to enhance your knowledge on the subject:

How to Give Up Homosexuality:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546996 - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503546996

How to Deal with Homosexuals:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543082&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543082&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

Homosexuality Is a Major Sin:
 
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543878&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543878&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

Islam’s Stance on Homosexual Organizations:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503545314&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar - http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503545314&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar

May Allah guide us all.

Peace



-------------
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13



Print Page | Close Window