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Jesus was crucified according to historia

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Printed Date: 28 July 2014 at 7:39pm


Topic: Jesus was crucified according to historia
Posted By: believer
Subject: Jesus was crucified according to historia
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 3:11pm

No serious historian doubts the existence of Jesus Christ. Atheist scholars and Christians alike acknowledge the reality and impact of his life. But the three great religions with roots in the Middle East—Judaism, Islam and Christianity—divide over the death of Jesus and what it means. The final moment in the life of Jesus—the moment he died--was the all-important moment. That's what this book addresses: What does the Christian Bible teach about why Jesus suffered so much and died?

The Denial by Muslims

Nothing is more relevant or controversial today. Islam affirms that Jesus lived, but most Muslims have been taught that Jesus was not crucified. For example, one Sunni Muslim says, “Muslims believe that Allah saved the Messiah from the ignominy of crucifixion.” http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftn1 - [1] Another adds, “We honor [Jesus] more than you [Christians] do. . . . We refuse to believe that God would permit him to suffer death on the cross.” http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftn2 - [2]

The place in the Qur'an that provides the basis for this denial of the crucifixion (and resurrection) is a discussion of supposed Jewish errors:

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger—They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt therefore; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise. There is not one of the People of the Scripture [Jews] but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftn3 - [3]

The Witness of Non-Christian History

However, those who were much closer to the historical situation than Mohammed (who was born in a.d. 571) reported that Jesus died by crucifixion. These witnesses include non-Christian historians who had no motive to fabricate Christ's death. For example, the Roman historian, Tacitus (who was born in a.d 55), wrote in his Annals (15:44) an explanation of how Nero, the emperor (who died in a.d 68) blamed Christians for the great fire of Rome in order to deflect rumors that he had started the blaze. In this passage Tacitus alludes to a fact which no one disputed: Christ had been crucified under Pontius Pilate:

All human efforts . . . of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus , and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftn4 - [4]

It was common and undisputed knowledge in the second half of the first century that Jesus Christ had been crucified. If there were any question that he had died in this way, it would have been eagerly disputed wherever Christians preached. But it wasn't. The fact of his death by crucifixion was not questioned.

Abundant Eyewitnesses and the Absence of Denial

If the death of Jesus was a myth, it had to be created overnight, since within weeks Christians were preaching the saving power of Christ's suffering and death. Even more significant, it was being preached in Jerusalem—the very city which had the greatest interest in making sure the error was stopped. As far as the Jewish leaders were concerned, this new religion was a distortion of the Jewish faith, and, in fact, was blasphemy, since Christians claimed that Jesus was himself the Son of God (Mark 14:61-64). “We have a law,” the Jewish leaders said to Pilate, “and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God” (John 19:7).

The fact is that Christians openly based their faith on the fact that Jesus was publicly tried, condemned, executed, and raised from the dead. They spoke this way within weeks after these events, when thousands of people who opposed this faith could have proved it wrong, if Jesus had not died. They could have gone to Pilate the governor or Herod the king or the Jewish Council or the soldiers or other witnesses of the crucifixion and gotten proof that he had not been condemned or crucified the way Christians said he was. But, in fact, no one did that. Everyone in Jerusalem knew that Jesus had been crucified, and many had watched him die. The resurrection was disputed, but not the crucifixion.

The early Christians were keenly aware that eyewitnesses were crucial in verifying their claims about the death and resurrection of Jesus. Their earliest writer, the apostle Paul, who was a contemporary of Jesus, said, “ Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures. . . . he was buried . . . he was raised on the third day . . . Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive” (1 Corinthians 15:3-6). Why did Paul say “most of whom are still alive”? Because he was not afraid to have his claims put to the test. He knew they could be verified by eyewitnesses. In other words, Christianity was spreading during the very decades when eyewitnesses could have most easily proved it false. But the basic claims stood the test. The events had happened.

An Improbable Myth

Moreover why would a group of Jews (for all the first Christians were Jews by birth) fabricate the death of Christ? The Christians had nothing to gain from creating the story of a crucified Messiah. It made the spread of Christianity almost impossible from a natural viewpoint. Crucifixion was an obscene form of torture and execution reserved for despised criminals. Most people, hearing the Christian message that Jesus Christ was the divine Son of God who died by crucifixion, thought it was ludicrous. One of the earliest first-century Christian preachers said, “ We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles [that is, non-Jews]” (1 Corinthians 1:23 ). It was not to the advantage of Christians to concoct a crucified Messiah. It made their life and mission much harder.

The Critical Issue of the 21st century

The claim of many Muslims that Christ was never crucified, and that early Christians were mistaken or were myth-makers, goes against all the historical and intuitive evidence. The key issue between Christians and Muslims is not first and foremost the identity of Allah, but the fact and meaning of the death of Jesus Christ. This is also true for Judaism and Christianity: Who was this Jesus and why did he die? Both Judaism and Islam deny the essence of Christianity—that Jesus was the long-expected Messiah, the divine Son of God, who was crucified and raised from the dead to bring forgiveness of sins and eternal life to all who believe in him.

This makes Jesus incredibly relevant and controversial in the 21st century. The massive movement of Islam (over 1.3 billion people), and the comparatively small people of Israel have explosive significance in world affairs. The most critical issue between Islam and Judaism on the one hand, and Christianity on the other, is not whether Islam and Judaism are monotheistic. Nor is the issue whether Islam and Judaism try to honor Jesus. The issue is: Do Islam and Judaism—or any other faiths besides Christianity—cherish the righteous suffering and death of the God-Man, Jesus Christ, as the only ground of our acceptance with God?

The answer to that question is No. Only Christians base their acceptance with God on the death of a crucified, risen, and reigning person. All other faiths reject the unique saving relevance of Jesus Christ. That is the critical issue of the 21st century: What happened between man and God when Jesus Christ died?

The Offense of Jesus' Passion—Then and Now

It was absolutely astonishing to the Roman world after the death of Jesus that Christians were willing to be tortured for faith in a convicted and crucified criminal. If this were a self-created myth, it was suicidal. In his History of Christian Missions , Stephen Neil wrote, “Christians under the Roman Empire had no legal right to existence, and were liable to the utmost stringency of the law. . . . Every Christian knew that sooner or later he might have to testify to his faith at the cost of his life.” http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftn5 - [5] All of this because they believed that the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ was the most important event in the history of the world. The foolishness of the claim was almost insurmountable. And the Christians didn't try to water it down.

The modern (sub)version of Christianity that preaches health, wealth, and prosperity is a cut flower, finally to wither in the arid winds of 21 st century suffering. If what you've seen on television is all you know of Christianity, you may never have seen the real thing. If you want to know the true Christ, read the New Testament. Those who market him today with the bait of money and success have severed their roots in the crucified Christ. His way was different: “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me” (Luke 9:23).

The early church knew that crucifixion was not just the experience of her Lord, but also a personal summons to sacrificial love. The fading of Christianity from cultural mainstream Western culture in the last 50 years is a dose of early church normalcy. Cultural Christianity has become a curse. It is time for the wheel of history to turn and the Christian church to discover the implications of her founder's finest hour, namely, his last.


http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftnref1 - [1] Badru D. Kateregga and David W. Shenk, Islam and Christianity: A Muslim and a Christian in Dialogue (Nairobi: Usima Press, 1980), 141.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftnref2 - [2] Quoted from The Muslim World, in Muslims and Christians on the Emmaus Road, ed. J. Dudley Woodberry (Monrovia, Ca: MARC, 1989), 164.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftnref3 - [3] Sara 4, 157-159, quoted from The Meanings of the Glorious Qur'an, trans. Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall (New Delhi : Kitab Bhavan, n.d.), 91.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftnref4 - [4] Tacitus, Annals, translated by Alfred John Church and William Jackson Brodribb, accessed 11-26-03, http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.11.xv.html. Italics added.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftnref5 - [5] Stephen Neill, History of Christian Missions (New York: Penguin, 1964), 43.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



Replies:
Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 3:18pm

Are we absolutely sure that Muslims are interpreting the Quran writings accurately?  Has it been translated correctly?



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 3:21pm
beleiver,
I would suggest you to learn Arabic, if you are not satisfied with the translations.
beleiver, this issue has been discussed before. As a Muslim let me clarify, that for a Muslim, the Quran is the word of God, and thus is the authority. We trust and submitt to the truth sent by God. For us their is not a tiny chance of doubt what it tells us about this issue.
I will ask you to respect other's believe as they respect yours. Also present your point let others present theirs and that's it. There is no other purpose but to bring out facts. Let people decide for themselves without compulsion and distortion.
 
The Quran speaks clearly of Jesus(pbuh) being a man, a prophet a word from God. It also states that Jesus was raised by God to Himself, so not be humiliated, and crusified by disbelievers who thought to have power to do so. Thus God rescued and saved His beloved prophet and servent from the hands of disbelievers.
 
We Muslims do not deny Jesus (pbuh), we deny what non-Mulsims associate with him.
 
I can understand, from a Christian's perspective, denying that "Christ died for your sins" is the end of it.  You have nothing left to sell??
 
We Muslims more so celebrate lives of the prophets not their deaths.
We believe it was their life that brought humanity the salvation, not their deaths. Death is a reality anyway for all of those who are born, according to the Quran, and so was Jesus, son of Mary.
 
You may disagree with me, and you ae welcome to do so.
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 3:27pm

honeto - do you read or write arabic?

I didn't know that Muslims celebrate Jesus' birthday.  What special things do you do and what date do you observe it?
 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by believer

Are we absolutely sure that Muslims are interpreting the Quran writings accurately?  Has it been translated correctly?


This no place to let John Piper's Christian hedonism find roots? This evangelical  preacher  is no different than others in the heap of an anti Islamic crowd. What part of the sign he doesn't understand? Why is he quoting from Pickthall? he could go and read in Arabic and come back then!
The Quran is a go - no go gauge of the of quality assurance in divine revelations!
So far Chapter  4 sign 157-159 is concerned it is quite explicit that Allah has the power to show what He wanted to show to blood thirsty Jews to make their lives even more sinister! Think if Jesus had a what the Jews would do to him for a having son who told them what to do!
You can't tell a Jew what to think and do if you mention to him about his wrong doing.
You tell me what wrong business they are not in today? Every presidential candidate is beholden to them at this moment!Why?
And a Jew named Saul who wasn't on the scene did that by creating a new cult based on the purported show of crucifixion!  And that concept was no different than the Mithraism in many details!
Instead of casting stone at the Muslim's understanding of the Quranic meanings you need to understand one comparative difference between Jesus and Muhammad's apostleships that former was shrouded in mystery while the later was in the full view of the world history with minutest details. The west can't buy that just cuz it was a party to that history as a loser. Now when the west has been successful in dismantling the nemesis politically; is on the rampage to question the Quranic absolutes!
Just think the evangelistic driven president W with his bunch of liars; with full availability of all resources, the people were manipulated to believe all the lies for invading Iraq. Then kept changing the  justification about Iraqi which rather is a crusade in disguise albeit a Judeo Christian  monstrosity cuz they found takers in the Anglo American  audience? Same is true for the  Jesus story the perfect fit for the western hedonism that they want a cover for all their evil ways!



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by believer

honeto - do you read or write arabic?

I didn't know that Muslims celebrate Jesus' birthday.  What special things do you do and what date do you observe it?
 
 
beleiver,
Arabic, I can read and write quite a bit, but not completely. I do not know the language though, I wish I did.
I reccomended for you to learn Arabic, because you seem to have problem with the translations. I don't have that problem.
 
As far as celebrating the birthday of prophet  Jesus (pbuh), no we don't celebrate it.  What I was saying was that we don't see a prophets death as a good thing as you do, rather their coming into this world as our guides as a blessing from God. Their lives were for a purpose, to guide us out of error and into the right direction. They died or went back to God when their life on earth finished and were called back, as we all must return to Him one day when our time finishes.
 
Let me make it easy for you to understand. Just like you don't celebrate birthdays of any pevious prophets, like Yahya (John the Baptist), Moses or Abraham (pbut) simply because you don't know nor we when were they born. Same way for us Jesus (pbuh) is a prophet of the past, There is no authentic record of his birth date. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is our last prophet, and we celebrate his birthday.  We celebrate it not the same way though as you do of the Christ, and its not the biggest holiday in Islam.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 10:23pm
Originally posted by believer

No serious historian doubts the existence of Jesus Christ. Atheist scholars and Christians alike acknowledge the reality and impact of his life. But the three great religions with roots in the Middle East—Judaism, Islam and Christianity—divide over the death of Jesus and what it means. The final moment in the life of Jesus—the moment he died--was the all-important moment. That's what this book addresses: What does the Christian Bible teach about why Jesus suffered so much and died?

The Denial by Muslims

Nothing is more relevant or controversial today. Islam affirms that Jesus lived, but most Muslims have been taught that Jesus was not crucified. For example, one Sunni Muslim says, “Muslims believe that Allah saved the Messiah from the ignominy of crucifixion.” http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftn1 - [1] Another adds, “We honor [Jesus] more than you [Christians] do. . . . We refuse to believe that God would permit him to suffer death on the cross.” http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftn2 - [2]

The place in the Qur'an that provides the basis for this denial of the crucifixion (and resurrection) is a discussion of supposed Jewish errors:

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger—They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt therefore; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah is ever Mighty, Wise. There is not one of the People of the Scripture [Jews] but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftn3 - [3]  

 
 
Even Christians beleive that Jesus was resurrected, also a scheme that included the "error" of the Jews who wanted him executed. I find the skeptical impilication of the word chosen by the mentally challenged author to be of great humour, "supposed Jewish errors".
 
 
 
 
 
 
The Witness of Non-Christian History

However, those who were much closer to the historical situation than Mohammed (who was born in a.d. 571) reported that Jesus died by crucifixion.

 
Revelation gives a more accurate account, hence it is almost nonsensical to say that 571 ACE would not be as accurate as 100-300 ACE. A "historical" account near the source is only as good as the reliablity of the witness, which in this case if the myriad of MSS that floated around dervived from unknown authors.
 
 
 
These witnesses include non-Christian historians who had no motive to fabricate Christ's death. For example, the Roman historian, Tacitus (who was born in a.d 55), wrote in his Annals (15:44) an explanation of how Nero, the emperor (who died in a.d 68) blamed Christians for the great fire of Rome in order to deflect rumors that he had started the blaze. In this passage Tacitus alludes to a fact which no one disputed: Christ had been crucified under Pontius Pilate:

All human efforts . . . of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus , and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1994/1526_The_Great_Offense_Was_Jesus_Really_Crucified/#_ftn4 - [4]

 
Tacitus did not write as a first handwittness to the "alleged" event, he simply wore what others said about the group in question. In other words, this cannot be used as a historical witness, and no true historian would make this claim. It is simply another unvalidated, and unverifable writing from the first century that does not allow us to have any close look from a historical view.
 
 
 
 
It was common and undisputed knowledge in the second half of the first century that Jesus Christ had been crucified. If there were any question that he had died in this way, it would have been eagerly disputed wherever Christians preached. But it wasn't. The fact of his death by crucifixion was not questioned.
 
 
The author has just tried to hood wink us. The first assertion is simply that, an assertion, which has a conclusion that was given by nothing more than a "handwave".  Since the majortiy of what as actually circuylated is not gone, one can only make such a claim about the traditions that have been preserved. This silly claim takes the odd assumption that what we have now is exactly what everyone read, practiced, and followed. Modern research tells us that the old sunday school fable about how "real" Christianity has been the same going all the way back to the apostles is pure rubbish.
 
 
 

Abundant Eyewitnesses and the Absence of Denial

If the death of Jesus was a myth, it had to be created overnight, since within weeks Christians were preaching the saving power of Christ's suffering and death.

 
 
 
the conclusion "it had to be created overnight" is nothing mroe than juvenile handwaving. It does not follow from the premise, and it begs the question: How do you know what was taught within weeks.  The answer: The quthor does not have a real clue. And this is why he just "handwaved" the conclusion.
 
 
 
 
Even more significant, it was being preached in Jerusalem—the very city which had the greatest interest in making sure the error was stopped.
 
 
1) Islam does not teach that a "crucifiction" did not necessarily take place, it simply says that Jesus did not die in the event.
2) Many things were being taught in late second temple period. MOdern research tells us that your tenents were only a drop in the bubket of the on going beliefs of the day. So once more, proof needs to be shown, and argued, that your tenants were the only core teaching being spread. Assumpions do not count.
 
 
 
As far as the Jewish leaders were concerned, this new religion was a distortion of the Jewish faith, and, in fact, was blasphemy, since Christians claimed that Jesus was himself the Son of God (Mark 14:61-64). “We have a law,” the Jewish leaders said to Pilate, “and according to that law he ought to die because he has made himself the Son of God” (John 19:7).
 
 
Argue that the book of John is a verifiable, and an authenticated witness to Jesus. (Not that I agree with the interpretation, but why argue about something that cannot even be authentocated with even the slighets of confidence?)
 
 
The fact is that Christians openly based their faith on the fact that Jesus was publicly tried, condemned, executed, and raised from the dead.
 
 
Bold. That is not a fact.
 
 
 
 They spoke this way within weeks after these events, when thousands of people who opposed this faith could have proved it wrong, if Jesus had not died.
 
 
 
 
 
Prove it.
 
 
 
 They could have gone to Pilate the governor or Herod the king or the Jewish Council or the soldiers or other witnesses of the crucifixion and gotten proof that he had not been condemned or crucified the way Christians said he was.
 
 
Why?
 
 
 
 But, in fact, no one did that. Everyone in Jerusalem knew that Jesus had been crucified, and many had watched him die. The resurrection was disputed, but not the crucifixion.
 
 
 
A cricifiction does not imply that Jesus did or did not die from it.
 
There are not enough witnesses from the period to give us an accurate account.
 
 
 
 
<snip irrelevant drivel> appealing to emotion is intellectually bankrupt.
 
 
 

An Improbable Myth

Moreover why would a group of Jews (for all the first Christians were Jews by birth) fabricate the death of Christ?

 
Strawman argument, no one has argued otherwise.
 
 
 
The Christians had nothing to gain from creating the story of a crucified Messiah.
 
 
 
 
Irrelevant. It has nothing to do with what gain they might. or might not have had. A tradition may or may not offer a gain if believed in. A tradition can be embraced without any change of benefit between the believer and the tradition. In this case, the crucifiction was the element to explain the means for God to forgive us. So the above statement is really irrelevant and does not touch upon the actual scenerio. In fact, it is much of a strawman.
 
 
 
It made the spread of Christianity almost impossible from a natural viewpoint. Crucifixion was an obscene form of torture and execution reserved for despised criminals.
 
Complete rubbish. The crucifiction was the means for the godman to sacrifice himself as a means to forgive humanity of sin. Jesus, according to your tradition, was not a common criminal (his crime was not "common"), and the entire symbolim written into the Christian mythos was one of "sacrifice" to bring about redemption. The context makes the above statement into nonsense.
 
 
Most people, hearing the Christian message that Jesus Christ was the divine Son of God who died by crucifixion, thought it was ludicrous. One of the earliest first-century Christian preachers said, “ We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles [that is, non-Jews]” (1 Corinthians 1:23 ). It was not to the advantage of Christians to concoct a crucified Messiah. It made their life and mission much harder.
 
 
The Jews rejected yuour accounts because
1) Paul committed willful distortions of the TANAKH, something gentiles would not pick up on.
2) The gospels were full of "willful" distortions to manipulate the TANAKH into validating the "replacement theology" spouted by the church.
3) The real audience were pagans, who were quite familiar with godmen, gods fathering children, and mystery religions that were full of symbols about resurrection
 
 
 
 

The Critical Issue of the 21st century

The claim of many Muslims that Christ was never crucified, and that early Christians were mistaken or were myth-makers, goes against all the historical and intuitive evidence.

 
 
 
Funny. The author provided not a single ounce of evidence fromt he historical evidence he claims exists.
 
 
 
 
The key issue between Christians and Muslims is not first and foremost the identity of Allah, but the fact and meaning of the death of Jesus Christ. This is also true for Judaism and Christianity: Who was this Jesus and why did he die? Both Judaism and Islam deny the essence of Christianity—that Jesus was the long-expected Messiah, the divine Son of God, who was crucified and raised from the dead to bring forgiveness of sins and eternal life to all who believe in him.

This makes Jesus incredibly relevant and controversial in the 21st century. The massive movement of Islam (over 1.3 billion people), and the comparatively small people of Israel have explosive significance in world affairs. The most critical issue between Islam and Judaism on the one hand, and Christianity on the other, is not whether Islam and Judaism are monotheistic. Nor is the issue whether Islam and Judaism try to honor Jesus. The issue is: Do Islam and Judaism—or any other faiths besides Christianity—cherish the righteous suffering and death of the God-Man, Jesus Christ, as the only ground of our acceptance with God?

 
 
My God does not have to send Himself through a vagine, use the toiler, walk around, ans then preach for a few years, and then commit suicide so He can be a perfect sacrifice for Himself in order to forgive man of sin.
 
The TANAKH does not indicate any need to change the system in place for seeking resolution with God, hence there is no need for God to send Himself to die for man so that man can seek atonement with God. It is simply absurd, and makes no sense. And God must also suffer? This is such a convoluted theology, I am truly amazed that many Christian proudly revel in this story. My God does not need to suffer, and He is capable of forgiving my sins without Him having to be born to die.
 
The rest of the piece is simply an intellectual waste of time. The author offers no further direction that seeks to prove what he claims.
 
 
 
 
 


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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 6:21am
LOL!!  Anadulas - you are not proving your stance, just dismissing each with comedic comments.
 
You say revelation most important- the Gospel which the Quran verifies says Jesus was crucified.
 
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?

037.103
YUSUFALI: So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
PICKTHAL: Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face,
SHAKIR: So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his forehead,

037.104
YUSUFALI: We called out to him "O Abraham!
PICKTHAL: We called unto him: O Abraham!
SHAKIR: And We called out to him saying: O Ibrahim!

037.105
YUSUFALI: "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
PICKTHAL: Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good.
SHAKIR: You have indeed shown the truth of the vision; surely thus do We reward the doers of good:

037.106
YUSUFALI: For this was obviously a trial-
PICKTHAL: Lo! that verily was a clear test.
SHAKIR: Most surely this is a manifest trial.

037.107
YUSUFALI: And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
PICKTHAL: Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR: And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.



-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 4:34pm
 
LOL!!  Anadulas - you are not proving your stance, just dismissing each with comedic comments.
 
My stance is that the piece you posted is so full of holes that it does notprovide a single solid argument. That is my stance, which was shown. Dismissing claims on the grounds of fallacies is the point.
 
 
You say revelation most important- the Gospel which the Quran verifies says Jesus was crucified.
 
 
I discussed the fact that the year of a revelation is irrelevant in terms of the time that has passed about a given event contained in the revelation. Given that a revelation is from God, that it would be hte most historically accurate. The point about the time period of the revelation vs the time period some oral narrative was written is a moot point.
 
 
The Quran states that Jesus was not killed by the Jews.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Your question is cryptic. What is it that you are trying to ask. A coherent question is in order.


-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 5:36am
We all know that it was a trial test of Abraham's obedience.  I am asking since there was no sacrifice- it was stopped whether you believe it was Ishmael/Isaac.- 
 
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?
 
I know that the Quran does not say what Muslims believe.  GOD did take Jesus up to Him, GOD ended His time on earth.  The Jews believe they had control of the situation.  Mohammad is saying that the Jews did not have the power over Jesus in killing Him- GOD did. 
 
GOD ended Jesus' time on the Cross early.
 
Mark 15
 
42It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. 44Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.
 
003.055
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
 

004.156
YUSUFALI: That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
PICKTHAL: And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;
SHAKIR: And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Marium a grievous calumny.

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

004.158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL: But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.



-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 2:43pm
believer,
the issue before us as you started was, in your words, "Jesus was crucified according to historia"
you  heard Islamic understanding on that issue. You have right to keep your and we to our understanding. You offered quotes in your argument, we provided ours. You are not forced to accept views and proves we provided, nor are we bound to accept yours.
I think each one of us can see and decide for ourself.
You tried to use Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his beloved son in the way of God as a comparasion here even though it does not fit here as such.
 
God tests us and it is easy to give in the way of God what we don't need, but to give in his cause something that we love so much is harder. So the test for Abraham was to give in the way of God what he loved the most. Remember that Abraham did not have any children until he was very old. When God called him to service, he asked God to give him a son. God granted his request and blessed him with a son whom he loved and who was deerest to him. Now God tests Abraham for his faith in Him by asking Abraham to sacrifice his beloved son. Abraham's faith did not shake and he was ready to offer what he loved the most. When he was about to execute his promise, God asked him to hold on, stop, as Abraham triumped in his true believe in God. Thus God accepted his willingness to sacrifice what was the most dear to Abraham. 
It was a test of faith, it was not a ransom of any kind for anything as you understand it when you said:  "Who was the victim?  What ransom?
 
Further you wrote:  "I know that the Quran does not say what Muslims believe.  GOD did take Jesus up to Him, GOD ended His time on earth.  The Jews believe they had control of the situation.  Mohammad is saying that the Jews did not have the power over Jesus in killing Him- GOD did. 
I don't know why you say that. We beleive what Quran tells us, it is you who don't believe what Quran says, right.
You are right that God did not let Jews to do what they thought they have control over, killing Jesus. God raised him up to Himself to show them who is in control. Here is the quote that states that: 
The Quran 4:157"That they said in (boast),  "we killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God-,
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, And those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certian knowledge but only conjucture to follow. For of a surety they killed him not."
 
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 4:38am
honeto said-"it was not a ransom of any kind for anything "
 
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?

037.103
YUSUFALI: So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
PICKTHAL: Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face,
SHAKIR: So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his forehead,

037.104
YUSUFALI: We called out to him "O Abraham!
PICKTHAL: We called unto him: O Abraham!
SHAKIR: And We called out to him saying: O Ibrahim!

037.105
YUSUFALI: "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
PICKTHAL: Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good.
SHAKIR: You have indeed shown the truth of the vision; surely thus do We reward the doers of good:

037.106
YUSUFALI: For this was obviously a trial-
PICKTHAL: Lo! that verily was a clear test.
SHAKIR: Most surely this is a manifest trial.

037.107
YUSUFALI: And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
PICKTHAL: Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR: And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.

Are you saying the above is a false statement?


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 3:32pm
 
beleiver,
 It says, "we ransom him (Ishmael) with a feast sacrifice (a ram).
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by believer

We all know that it was a trial test of Abraham's obedience.  I am asking since there was no sacrifice- it was stopped whether you believe it was Ishmael/Isaac.- 
 
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?
 
1) Ishmael nor Isac were killed.
2) Another offering was given to Abraham
3) I am the victim of odd questions about the Quran which have Christian theological assumptions buried into them
4) The Quran says a ransom was offered in terms of a great sacrifice. Hadith tells us that it was a Ram brought by Gabriel (as).
 
 
I know that the Quran does not say what Muslims believe. 
 
 
The Quran states what Muslims believe.
 
 
 
 
 GOD did take Jesus up to Him, GOD ended His time on earth.  The Jews believe they had control of the situation.  Mohammad is saying that the Jews did not have the power over Jesus in killing Him- GOD did. 
 
 
 
The Quran says that God took Jesus to him, and that he was not killed. The Quran says that the Jews did not kill him.
 
 
 
GOD ended Jesus' time on the Cross early.
 
 
The Quran does not actually say this.
 
It appears as if you are trying to superimpose Christian theology onto Islam as far as you questions are formed. Keep in mind that these "assumptions" are only accepted by Christians as fact. This is why it is difficult to figure out what point you are trying to make at times.
 
Hope this helps


-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by believer

honeto said-"it was not a ransom of any kind for anything "
 
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?
 
 
Believer, you are making a mountain from a mole hill. You are trying to read WAAAAAAY too much Christian theology onto the Quran. The verses are very straight forward. Niether were killed, and something else was offered in their place. Hadith says it was a special Ram from Gabriel. It is that simple. Your overly zealous notion of victimization, and sacrifices, and ransoms are terms that second century Church doctors over used and manipulated to explain the foriegn notion of Christian atonement theology, and original sin, and all the other Church interests to explain their new faith. None of these terms have the same meaning in Islam or Judaism.


-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 5:41am

037.107
YUSUFALI: And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
PICKTHAL: Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR: And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.

Yes I know that Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed.  By reading just the Quran how do you know it is a ram?  A ram is a monetous sacrifice?
 
Yes, it is true that Jesus did not die a permanent bodily death for He raised from the dead!  All is in the Gospel confirmed by Mohammad.


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 12:44pm
beleiver,
you are looking for meanings other than what the words are saying:
Let us read again:
" and we ransomed him with a feast sacrifice"
who was offered for sacrifice? = Ishmael
what is a feast sacrifice? = being born and raised in city up in the mountain in south asia, near middle east, I can tell you what that means to me.
 
When you have a feast for guests or an event, you sacrifice or cut the best animal in your herd. Remember, its God providing replacement, a ransom for Ishmael. What is hard to understand here. If a sheperd can provide the best lamb or ram of his herd to his guests, can't God provide better, even more tremendous or the best ram for a replacement sacrifice of beloved (Ishmael) of his beloved (Abraham)??
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 2:18pm
Yes, I understand that GOD can do this.  I was just saying that a ram is not mentioned and not all of man would know this.

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 10:38pm
I was just saying that a ram is not mentioned and not all of man would know this.
 
 
The word used denotes something to feast on. Prophet Muhammad (saw) said it was a Ram. The world would know it if it asks the proper questions to the proper authorties of the knowledge in question. Not unlike other types of knowledge.


-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 5:39am

OK, now I understand hadith and imam needed for understanding of the verses.  The verses are to be taken literally.

Yes as a Christian I know the story.  I was trying to understand what it would mean to those that did not know the whole story.  To the Christian it is a foretelling of the sacrifice or Jesus.
 
Genesis 22
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

 13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

Andalus sometimes your printing is so small I can not read it.


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 11:16am
Originally posted by believer

OK, now I understand hadith and imam needed for understanding of the verses.  The verses are to be taken literally.

Yes as a Christian I know the story.  I was trying to understand what it would mean to those that did not know the whole story.  To the Christian it is a foretelling of the sacrifice or Jesus.
 
Genesis 22
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."

 13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, "On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided."

Andalus sometimes your printing is so small I can not read it.
 
beleiver,
here is another classical example of Christians translating in their own words.
Here is the translation from a Jewish Bible, remember that Christians inherated the O/T from the Jews. Here is their version of the Genesis 22:14
"And Abraham called the name of that place Adonai-jireh; as it is said to this day: 'In the mount where the LORD is seen"
By the way this verse don't  give a tiny hint of Jesus' sacrifice.
Hasan 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 6:16am
honeto- I understand that if you believe the sacrifice did not happen that it would not be a foretelling. 
 
LOL!!  in the King James: 
 
14And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.The Lord sees",


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 5:57pm
believer,
you said, "To the Christian it is a foretelling of the sacrifice or Jesus."
 
I have asked you where in this verse is the forstelling of Jesus' sacrifice??
You did not answer that question. Forget obout how I believe, you say you see the fortelling of Jesus' sacrifice, where in this quote to you see that my friend?
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 7:30am
My apologies, I should have used the word foreshadow.  Foretelling would have been an actual prophecy.
 
To the Christian it is a foreshadow of the sacrifice of Jesus.


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 May 2008 at 5:53pm
believer,
can you explain how??
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 17 May 2008 at 8:46am
Jesus was crucified according to historia.
 
AND ACCORDING TO HISTORIA AND THE BIBLE - THE WORD CHRISTIANITY WAS NEVER EVEN WRITTEN.
NEVER EVEN MENTIONED.
 
DO NOT TELL ME THAT GOD FORGOT?
 
WHAT KIND OF GOD WILL EVER FORGET TO MENTION HIS RELIGION IF IT IS REALLY FROM HIM?
 
CAN YOU SAY THAT CHRISTIANITY IS NOT FROM GOD ALMIGHTY, BUT A MAN-MADE PAGANISTIC RELIGION?
 


-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 May 2008 at 5:36pm
Surely you jest.
 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 17 May 2008 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by believer

Surely you jest.
 
 
No I am not.
 
The problem with Christians and Christianity is that, they thought that worshpping God directly is impossible. It has to be thru Jesus.
 
God created this whole wide world without the assistance of any of His creations. Why should we worship Him thru a creation of His?


-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 6:31am

Acts 11:26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

We don't worship GOD thru a creation of Hs but through a manifestation of Him.

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 1:53pm
Just like a Hindu who worhip God through many manifestations of Him, or others did in ancient Rome or Greece.
Hasan

-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 3:08pm
As I understand in Hinduism all the humans, animals, gods, and objects are one divine being

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 9:27am
Originally posted by believer

As I understand in Hinduism all the humans, animals, gods, and objects are one divine being
 
Incarnations of the One God.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 6:38am
Originally posted by believer

As I understand in Hinduism all the humans, animals, gods, and objects are one divine being
 
That is why Christianity is no better than Hinduism since both are worshipping the Creator thru a creation of His.
 
It is indeed an 'insult' to the Greatness of God, that God who could create the furthest of the stars and the deepest of the oceans, dwell in a creation of His.
 
This is what Aqidah in Islam is all about.
 
That there is no other God worthy of being worshipped except ALLAH Al-Khaliq. (God the Creator).


-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 11:26am
LOL!!  Nur- Christians do not believe that GOD manifests as objects, what would be the point of that?
 
Muslims believe that Allah's word/thought is manifest in the Quran.  Christians believe that Jesus is GOD's Word. 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 May 2008 at 5:41pm
"believer" You are right, God's Word, and not God. We have cleared that up for you before.
But the problem is that you don't stick to your ground and say things other than that. Let me rephrase all of your standings on this matter so far.
As you said above:
1- " Jesus is God's Word" good we agree with you on that.
       but you have said before these other things as well:
2- " Jesus is the only Son of God, who was offered for sacrificed by God".
3- " Jesus is God, who came on the earth as a man"
 
Hasan
 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 6:45am
So you are agreeing that Jesus is a part of GOD!!
 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by believer

So you are agreeing that Jesus is a part of GOD!!
 
 
Where did I say that?
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 01 June 2008 at 7:25am
" Jesus is God's Word"

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 02 June 2008 at 4:50am
HI Believer,
 
Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9.
"He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' "
 


-------------
Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 June 2008 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by believer

" Jesus is God's Word"
 
believer,
of course Jesus is God's word, does that make Him God, no.
4:171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of allah, and His word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in God and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for God is one God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. and enough is God as a Disposer of affairs.
 
Also:
3:59 The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
 
Remember whatever is given or is from God (i.e., God's word, God's spirit, God's servent, God's creation) is as such and not God, just like whatever is your's (i.e., your house, your spirit, your son etc.) is not you. It's that simple.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 10 June 2008 at 9:45am
Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

HI Believer,
 
Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9.
"He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' "
 
 
And according to the Bible:-
 
Revelation 3:14
"And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen [another name for Jesus] says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 10 June 2008 at 9:46am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by believer

As I understand in Hinduism all the humans, animals, gods, and objects are one divine being
 
Incarnations of the One God.
Hasan
 
Just like the ancient Egyptians.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 10 June 2008 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

HI Believer,
 
Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9.
"He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' "
 
 
And according to the Bible:-
 
Revelation 3:14
"And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen [another name for Jesus] says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
 
Robin,
I don't agree with your interpretation in the above quote. Whoever wrote and rewrote "Revelation" seem to have used words loosely and disrespectfully in my opinion.
Take for example:
"Revelation 1:5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, "
 
........14His (Jesus') head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
 
........16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. "
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 11 June 2008 at 1:24am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

HI Believer,
 
Jesus is a word of God, God said "be" and then Jesus was created, Quran 19:9.
"He said, "Thus said your Lord: `It is easy for Me to do. I created you before that, and you were nothing.' "
 
 
And according to the Bible:-
 
Revelation 3:14
"And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen [another name for Jesus] says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
 
Robin,
I don't agree with your interpretation in the above quote. Whoever wrote and rewrote "Revelation" seem to have used words loosely and disrespectfully in my opinion.
Take for example:
"Revelation 1:5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, "
 
MEANS THE FIRST TO BE RESSURECTED TO IMMORTAL LIFE!
 
 
........14His (Jesus') head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
 
 

Means that he is sharp, alert, as he searches, tests, or expresses indignation on God behalf

 
 ........16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
"
 

a sharp, long two-edged sword." What a fitting feature as Jesus is the one appointed to pronounce Jehovah’s final judgments against His enemies. Decisive utterances from his mouth result in the execution of all wicked ones.—Revelation 19:13, 15.

 
Hasan


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 June 2008 at 4:13pm
Robin,
we all are good at explaining what things mean when they directly don't look good and are not in agreement with our belief, we try to find their hidden meanings the way we want them to sound like, don't we?
 
To you it may mean what you have said but to me it means what it reads.
 
"Revelation 1:5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, ............"
 
My second quote: 
"........16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
 
you have tried to give your interpretation, but the fact is that its John who is describing what he saw:
I will quote the verses that will describe this a bit more:
:9 I, John, your brother and companion ............10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

 12   I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. "

I can understand as it reads, "his face was like sun" we all use some times such expressions, as it says, 'like'
But  when the person writing describes what he sees: "and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edge sword"??
 
As I said before, loose language and words are used here as in many parts of the Bible, and I believe that God does not use loose words, even when He inspires His servents.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 8:10pm

Hebrews 4  http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2 -

 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 11:29am
believer,
in your quote the writer is comparing, 'word of God' to double-edged sword.  And I understand it fine, because it uses the words 'sharper than'.
but what I have quoted above and I will quote again does not say the same. It is not a comparsion rather a narration of what John saw in a vision. Remember he is not doing any comparision of any kind here he is simply saying what he saw, let me quote it again:
:9 I, John, your brother and companion ............10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

 12   I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. ......................... 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. ..........."

Read again, and you will see that John is not comparing anything here rather saying what he saw in the vision.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:51pm

honeto -

Are you saying you believe it is an actual sword coming out of the "son of man's" mouth?
 
That a vision is strictly literal?


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 11:34am
believer,
its not about how you take a verse, it is about what its saying. We can each interpret and understand about God making the Earth in "six days" differently, I understand that. 
But here is a man, John who is quoted to have been describing what he saw, remember he says: hair white like wool, as white as snow , that I can understand he is just comparing the hair to snow or wool, understood.
But he does not compare, when he describe what he saw further : "and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword"
To me this description of John's vision of what he saw and described is not how God is but with these words I see what John is describing literally.
That's my understanding.
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 2:03pm
OK, You are saying you believe it is an actual sword coming out of the "son of man's" mouth?
 
honeto- I find that very interesting.  That is very interesting!!
 
Do you see how the sword might mean a judgement spoken by GOD? 
 
Do you own a Bible?  If you look at the verse and see the letter aboove the verse mine happens to have a small b, then look at the center column you will see where that phrase is used in another part of Scriputure.  These are the verses listed with that verse-
 
Isaiah 1

 20 but if you resist and rebel,
       you will be devoured by the sword."
       For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Isaiah 49

 2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
       in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
       he made me into a polished arrow
       and concealed me in his quiver

Hebrews 4

 12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Revelation 2
 
 12"To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:
      These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword
 
...
 
16Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth
 
Revelation 19
 
15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.
 
...

21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 4:27pm

believer,

I just find such word and expressions used in the Bible to be of poor taste in my judgement, specially when they are associated with the Devine or devinely guided people, and be part of a "Holy book".
Since I am not used to such words associated to the prophets of God or God in the Quran, they seem odd and desrespectful to me.
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 23 June 2008 at 11:43pm

JESUS SAID HE WOULD DIE!

 
Jesus Christ as one of God’s prophets, cannot lie, he said he would die, not someone in his place!

 
Matthew 16:21

From that time forward Jesus Christ commenced showing his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the older men and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised up.

 

Matthew 17:22-23

It was while they were gathered together in Gal´i·lee that Jesus said to them: “The Son of man is destined to be betrayed into men’s hands, 23 and they will kill him, and the third day he will be raised up.” Consequently they were very much grieved.

 

Matthew 20:17-19

Being now about to go up to Jerusalem, Jesus took the twelve disciples off privately and said to them on the road: 18 “Look! We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered up to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death, 19 and will deliver him up to [men of] the nations to make fun of and to scourge and to impale, and the third day he will be raised up.”

 

Mark 8:31

Also, he started teaching them that the Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the older men and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and rise three days later.

 

Luke 9:22

but said: “The Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the older men and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised up.”

 

Luke 24:46

and he said to them: “In this way it is written that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day,

 

John 3:14

And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up,

 

John 12:30-34

In answer Jesus said: “This voice has occurred, not for my sake, but for YOUR sakes. 31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw men of all sorts to me.” 33 This he was really saying to signify what sort of death he was about to die. 34 Therefore the crowd answered him: “We heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever; and how is it you say that the Son of man must be lifted up?. . .

 

John 20:9

For they did not yet discern the scripture that he must rise from the dead.

 

 

If Jesus himself did not die, that would make him a false prophet as what he said was not true and thus he would not be s servant of God (Allah)!



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 June 2008 at 3:21pm
In Islam we believe that Jesus (pbuh) was born, served his mission for which he was sent, and he was taken up to God.
We believe that it is his life that has a purpose and was of more importance than his death (as Christians believe).
We believe that he was sent to guide those who strayed from the straight path. We believe God does not grant salvation through blood sacrifice, as such has been a pagan ritual for pleasing gods.
 
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 25 June 2008 at 7:04am
Robin: If Jesus himself did not die, that would make him a false prophet as what he said was not true and thus he would not be s servant of God (Allah)!

Matthew 17:22-23

It was while they were gathered together in Gal´i·lee that Jesus said to them: “The Son of man is destined to be betrayed into men’s hands, 23 and they will kill him, and the third day he will be raised up.”


Matthew 20:17-19

Being now about to go up to Jerusalem, Jesus took the twelve disciples off privately and said to them on the road: “Look! We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be delivered up to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death, 19 and will deliver him up to [men of] the nations to make fun of and to scourge and to impale, and the third day he will be raised up.”


Mark 8:31

Also, he started teaching them that the Son of man must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by the older men and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed, and rise three days later.


From what I see, even if we assume the above verses are surely right and not corrupted, the bottom line is that Isa (as) is not talking about himself in these verses. He seems to be referring to another one.

Even if, on the other hand, Isa (as) has said to his disciples that he will die, how can you conclude (today) that his death is already happened?





Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 11:48pm
 
  Every where in the above post references by Robin, it is said that the son of man,,,, Son of Man,  Son of man...  Jesus was not son of man. He was son of a woman (as per Quran). he was son of God as per christians belief. So please settle this issue about jesus. Is he really the son of man?? Then tell which man?? This is a question to the christian friends here. Please teach us the real things as per bible.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 03 July 2008 at 8:47am
Originally posted by minuteman

 
  Every where in the above post references by Robin, it is said that the son of man,,,, Son of Man,  Son of man...  Jesus was not son of man. He was son of a woman (as per Quran). he was son of God as per christians belief. So please settle this issue about jesus. Is he really the son of man?? Then tell which man?? This is a question to the christian friends here. Please teach us the real things as per bible.
 
 
Yes Jesus was born of a woman Smile It has nothing to do with genics.
According to wikipedia, in ancient Mesopotamia, "son of man" was used to denote humanity or self.
 
Some christians, signify Jesus upholding his identification with his humanity and fellowship with mankind, perhaps also conveying the idea that Jesus is the man par excellence. In this last context it serves as putting humans and Jesus on the same level.
 
Jewish interpretation
  1. As generally interpreted by Jews, denotes mankind generally, with special reference to their weakness and frailty ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job - Job 25:6; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms - Psalms 8:4; 144:3; 146:3; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah - Book of Isaiah 51:12, etc.).
  2. It is a title frequently given to the prophet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezekiel - Ezekiel , probably to remind him of his human weakness.

Additionally, the Biblical http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel - book of Daniel mentions the prophet's vision of the coming of one 'like a son of man'; possibly implying that this is not actually a man but a divine figure.

When interpreting the Bible, one cannot exclusively rely on English translations. Son of man in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job - Job 25 is ben adam ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language - Hebrew : בן־אדם‎), and "son of man" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms - Psalms 144 is ben enosh ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language - Hebrew : בן־אנוש‎).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Man#Christian_interpretation - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Man#Christian_interpretation

 
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14144a.htm - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14144a.htm
 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 04 July 2008 at 11:23pm

Angel: Some christians, signify Jesus upholding his identification with his humanity and fellowship with mankind, perhaps also conveying the idea that Jesus is the man par excellence. In this last context it serves as putting humans and Jesus on the same level.

As I told before, many verses (such as the above ones) apparently show that “The son of man” can not be Isa (as) because Isa (as) is talking about “The son of man” as a third person.

Jewish interpretation

As generally interpreted by Jews, denotes mankind generally, with special reference to their weakness and frailty ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job - - Psalms 8:4; 144:3; 146:3; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah -

This can not be a general issue: The son of man.

It is a title frequently given to the prophet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezekiel - Ezekiel , probably to remind him of his human weakness.

In which verse? And what is the evidence for this claim?

Additionally, the Biblical http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Daniel - When interpreting the Bible, one cannot exclusively rely on English translations. Son of man in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job - - Hebrew : בן־אדם), and "son of man" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms - - Hebrew : בן־אנוש).

Again, it is The son of man. I am not convinced that it is generally referring to human or Bani Adam, while I do not think this comes from a bad translation.

However, if we can not rely exclusively on the translation then on what ground Christians quote the verses of Bible? You see, even a bad translation of "a" to "the" or vice versa in a Holy scripture can make a considerable deviation. 


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 6:18am

John 10

14
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 July 2008 at 1:08am
 Yes we know Jesus had other sheep too. But they were not in Palestine (kana'an).  robin wrote:
 
 

JESUS SAID HE WOULD DIE!

 
Jesus Christ as one of God’s prophets, cannot lie, he said he would die, not someone in his place!
 
 Very good. Jesus said that he would die. It was true and he died. But not on the cross please. He may have died some where else. He also said that he will die himself and not some one in his place. That is also very good and correct. We do not believe that some one else died in  place of Jesus.
 
 It follows that he must have said that every one will bear his own burden and no one will bear the burden (of sins) of others.. He must have said it. The same is written in the Quran that no one will bear the burden of others.
 
 When no one else will die in place of Jesus then why should Jesus bear the burden of others?  That would be un-natural, illegal, irrational.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 July 2008 at 6:48am
LOL!!  minuteman you are looking at Jesus as mere man.
 
Jesus layed His life down for us- sacrifice. 
 
Jesus was a gift of grace given to each and everyone of us from GOD.  By Jesus' sacrifice the debt of sin is paid.
 
GOD will judge you, the Muslim by how many good deeds you have performed, the Christian by their faith in Jesus.
 
I praise GOD for the beautiful gift of eternal life He has given me through Jesus.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 July 2008 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by believer

LOL!!  minuteman you are looking at Jesus as mere man.
 
Jesus layed His life down for us- sacrifice
 
Jesus was a gift of grace given to each and everyone of us from GOD.  By Jesus' sacrifice the debt of sin is paid.
 
GOD will judge you, the Muslim by how many good deeds you have performed, the Christian by their faith in Jesus.
 
I praise GOD for the beautiful gift of eternal life He has given me through Jesus.
 
 You are not right. Jesus gave his life for you or me, i.e. sacrifice. But is Jesus the only person who gave his life in the cause of truth? If some one else also gave his life for us, shall we make him into a god?
 
 You are mistaken about being judged by faith alone. That was a wrong lesson given to you by Saul of Tarsus. Jesus called every one to faith and good deeds. You are mistaken all around.
 
 By Jesus sacrifice (unwilling sacrifice) the debt of sin cannot be paid. Who told you that and why should it be like that. I told you that many had given their life in the way of Allah. Jesus was not the only one. Please think over.
 
 I have read some replies from Ron in another thread. He seems to be more near truth than you. We have noticed that you people use too many symbols / metaphors without telling that you are talking in symbolic language. You say that jesus was son of God. But you know that he was not son in the real sense of the word. But only in symbolic language, it could be so.
 
 I will retrun later, please.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 4:12am
 
 In the meantime, robin, please let us know :
 
  1. if Jesus was the real son of God?
  2. If Ishmael was the real son of Abraham?
 
  What is your opinion please?


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 6:55am
Hebrews 10
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
   "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
      but a body you prepared for me;
 6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
      you were not pleased.
 7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
      I have come to do your will, O God.' " 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
 
minuteman -remember faith without works is dead. 
 
Remember each letter, Epistle in the New Testament was written to a different church.  Each church lacking in a different way in following the truth.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 08 July 2008 at 10:04am
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 In the meantime, robin, please let us know :
 
  1. if Jesus was the real son of God?
  2. If Ishmael was the real son of Abraham?
 
  What is your opinion please?
 
Yes and Yes.


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 3:16am

minuteman: Very good. Jesus said that he would die. It was true and he died.

I am astonished why you insist that Isa (as) must be died. It can not be referred from Quran. His possible aliveness does not contradict any Islamic pillar or doctrine.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 11 July 2008 at 6:15am

003.055
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

 
 
What did they plot and plan?  Jesus' crucifixion!!!
 
Jesus was crucified and He was raised up to sit at the right hand of GOD.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 12 July 2008 at 3:54am

Believer:

YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

I will take thee and raise thee to Myself” doesn't show that Isa (as) is already died.  Being taken and raised up to Allah swt doesn't show that it must have been done through death. In this verse the Arabic word “Motevaffik” is used for taking Isa (as) which is never employed for showing “death” in Quran. Instead, the word “Mowt” is used in Quran for “death” and the word “Ghatl” is used for “Killing”.

follows 003.054
YUSUFALI: And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.


What did they plot and plan?  Jesus' crucifixion!!!

Even if we interpret as you said, it again does not show that they could perform what they planned. It only says that they had a plan and emphasizes that Allah swt is the best planner.

Following verses confirms what I am saying:

Quran (4:157): And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so(looks like Isa), and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture and they did not kill him for sure

Quran (4:158):  Nay! Allah took him up to Himself and Allah is  mighty wise.




Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 12:51am
Originally posted by myahya

minuteman: Very good. Jesus said that he would die. It was true and he died.

I am astonished why you insist that Isa (as) must be died. It can not be referred from Quran. His possible aliveness does not contradict any Islamic pillar or doctrine.
 
I Jesus Christ had not died, then Christianity would not of existed!
 
Romans 5:6-11
For, indeed, Christ, while we were yet weak, died for ungodly men at the appointed time. 7 For hardly will anyone die for a righteous [man]; indeed, for the good [man], perhaps, someone even dares to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, therefore, since we have been declared righteous now by his blood, shall we be saved through him from wrath. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, now that we have become reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only that, but we are also exulting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 14 July 2008 at 3:35am
Originally posted by myahya

minuteman: Very good. Jesus said that he would die. It was true and he died.

I am astonished why you insist that Isa (as) must be died. It can not be referred from Quran. His possible aliveness does not contradict any Islamic pillar or doctrine.
 
 Yes, I do believe that all prophets have died including Isa a.s. But it would need some explanation. So please refer to the Quran and Hadith and try to find out if there is any verse of Quran which says that Jesus is alive. Or any Hadith which says that Jesus is still alive and he has not died. You can do that yourself. But if necessary, you may approach me. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 1:35am

minuteman: So please refer to the Quran and Hadith and try to find out if there is any verse of Quran which says that Jesus is alive.

When Allah says in Quran that they did not kill or crucify Isa (as) but We took him up, it may mean one of two following interpretations:

First interpretation: Allah swt took only Isa’s spirit up (death)

Second interpretation: Allah swt took both Isa’s spirit and body up

In any kind of death (whether natural or not) Allah swt takes only the spirit up for everyone and it is not needed to mention it distinctly (but We took him up) for Isa (as). Even if they had killed Isa(as) Allah swt would have taken up his spirit, wouldn’t He? Therefore, to me the second one seems the right interpretation which means Allah swt took up both Isa’s spirit and body and he is not on the earth but where Allah swt took him up to there.

Anyway, thanks for the reply and I will look more into this concept.



Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 2:12am

Hi Minuteman.

Lately I had been very interested in Sufism. The pure Sufism that was taught by our Prophet Muhammad Salallahualaihiwasallam.

Sufism is more spiritual than physical. It teaches us to cleanse ourselves from the bad influence of Satan and how to cleanse the Nafs or the ego which is in ourselves. As we know there are 7 levels of Nafs, the lowest being the worst and the top most being the purest.
 
The great sufis that we read in our history books knows the power of the Ruh or spirit. As we know without our Ruh, we cannot do anything at all. We are useless. It is the Ruh that acts like electricity to our body that enable us to do anything that we like.
 
This Ruh once purified from Nafs and Satan could penetrate and envelope our physical body. I have read about Sufis that can walk on water, that could be present in two places at one time. In Isra' Mi'raj, our dear Prophet Muhammad was taken up in the night journey with Jibril alaihissalam. How did he do it? It is this same way. So was Jesus alaihissalam. These prophets of Allah, had got pure spirits that can penetrate and envelope the whole body.
 
In short, Jesus had not died, but is still in the presence of Allah and will return soon very soon indeed as the world now is very sick and need him to affirm the Oneness of God Almighty and unite the whole world under one banner of LA ILA HAILALLAH MUHAMMADURASULULLAH.
 
 


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 15 July 2008 at 12:38pm
 I agree with your points regarding Sufism and the purification of the soul (Nafs). You are right. But I do not agree that Isa a.s. is alive now. That is because the Quran is clearly telling that his Ruh went up to Allah (that is forever, never to return to earth). That is the word Tawaffa. It has a meaning "To capture or take the soul" It is done in two ways. 1. During sleep.  2. During death.
 
 When soul is taken away during sleep, it is returned back to the body (Al Quran 39:42) but when it is taken away during death it is withheld and not returned to body. The soul is taken and body is left behind.
IN the case of Isa .a.s. his soul has gone away to its high place forever. But you please see the Hadith too. If you know any Hadith that says Isa a.s. is still alive. I have not seen any.
 
 It is not right that our prophet Muhammad has died and gone away for ever but a prophet of some other Ummah may be alive. That is not possible. No prophet is alive now. All prophets have passed away. (3:144)


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 1:23am

Coming back to the topic of this thread, I think the bottom line is that Isa a.s. is not killed nor crucified according to the literal words of Quran. Even if it is mentioned in history, again according to literal words of Quran it has been nothing more than a mere mistake. It seems that people killed someone else instead of Isa a.s.



Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 8:14am
Originally posted by minuteman

 
 It is not right that our prophet Muhammad has died and gone away for ever but a prophet of some other Ummah may be alive. That is not possible. No prophet is alive now. All prophets have passed away. (3:144)
 
Minuteman, remember that All prophets were just servants of God, likewise we all are. They were Muslims. And Muslim means submitting to the will of Allah. They do not belong to Christians or Muslims but to God Al-Khaliq - The Creator.
 
You should not say the above words, as our knowledge is nothing compared to Allah Al-Aleem (Most Knowing).
 
I will quote something that I read as I have to sign off now.
 
The Qur’an as well as the Hadiths indicate that Isa, alaihissalam will come back to the earth. This is the verse in Surah Zukhruf, which you referred to:
And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way. (Qur’an (Zuيhruf) 43: 61)
In the above translation by Yusuf Ali, we find the name Jesus given in brackets, as the Sign of the Hour of Judgment. This seems to be a correct interpretation of the verse, especially when we look at hadiths like the following:
Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim quoted the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, as saying: “Soon the Son of Mary will descend among you as a just judge. He will break the cross, kill the pig, remove the Jizyah and the wealth will overflow to the extent that people will get disinterested in it, and until the prostration (sajdah) will be better than the world and whatever is in it. Then Abu Hurayrah said, 'Read if you wish, 'And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness on them."(An-Nisa' 4:159)
The eminent scholar Dr Muzammil Siddiqui has written:
“The second coming of Jesus is clearly a well- established fact, according to the Qur'an and authentic Sunnah. We Muslims should not have any doubt about this matter.”
And Allah knows best.


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 10:08am
 
 Minuteman, remember that All prophets were just servants of God, likewise we all are. They were Muslims. And Muslim means submitting to the will of Allah. They do not belong to Christians or Muslims but to God Al-Khaliq - The Creator.
 
 I agree. I also agree that Ibne Maryam will definitely come in this Ummah. That is because of the Hadith of Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim. But that does not prove that he is alive. There is no word in the Quran or the Hadith that Jesus (Isa a.s.) is alive. In fact the Quran specially mentions that he (Jesus) has passed away peacefully (not on the cross).
 
 There is not a single word to say that Jesus is alive. And we know that those who pass away do not come back to this world. I will present the Hadith about the coming of Ibne Maryam properly and then we will discuss it. In the meantime, please note that there are few Hadith as follows:
 
1. There is no prophet who did not have at least half the life of his predecessor. Isa lived for 120 years and I hope to depart at the age of 60. (This Hadith is reported by Hazrat Fatima a.s.)
 
 2. Even if Jesus and Moses were alive today, they would have no option except to follow in my footsteps (Meaning they would follow my code i.e.  my Shariyat).
 
 Anyhow, all prophets have passed away. I will discuss the Hadith about the second coming of Isa a.s. in next post. That Hadith is as follows:
 
 By the One in whose hand is my life (i.e. Allah), surely Isa ibne Maryam will descend amongst you as a just judge. He will break the cross and kill the swine and abolish Jizyah......"
 
 Please consider this Hadith and try to explain it as much as you can. It is a well agreed authentic Hadith.Thanks.
 


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 3:29pm
Yes we all think we have so much control over life, when in truth it is GOD along that has control over all things.  God did raise up Jesus.
 
According to the Quran when did GOD raise up Jesus?
 
We know also that Jesus' soul did not die.  Christians agree because we know that while His body was in the tomb His soul was preaching to those in prison.  We know too that His bodily death was not permanent.
 
Quran (4:157): And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so(looks like Isa), and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture and they did not kill him for sure

What is the time span between these 2 verses?

Quran (4:158):  Nay! Allah took him up to Himself and Allah is  mighty wise.
 
SInce Jesus was not dead why didn't He go on with His preaching?


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 3:49pm
Why was Jesus the only prophet raised to Allah to actually stay with Allah?

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: semar
Date Posted: 16 July 2008 at 5:15pm
Originally posted by believer

Why was Jesus the only prophet raised to Allah to actually stay with Allah?
 
To me, Allah/God had different scenarios for each of his prophet. Due to the scenario each prophet had different special treatment.
Like prophet Abraham, the scenario for him required him to be "fireproof".
Prophet Mose's scenario required him to have ability to divide the sea.
Prophet Solomon's scenarios required him to be able to speak to the animal and control the jinns (the unseen creautures like shaitan/satan).
Prophet Jonah's scenario required him to survive in the fish's stomach.
Prophet Jesus's scenario required him to be raised, in order to save him.
 
This special treatment it doesn't make them as "Devinne" figure.
 
 


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Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 7:25am

Believer:

According to the Quran when did GOD raise up Jesus?

It seems that it happened around the same time when people had the plan to kill him.

What is the time span between these 2 verses?

As I checked the chronological sequence of the Quran, no distance mentioned among the verses of this chapter. All of them are revealed in Madineh.

SInce Jesus was not dead why didn't He go on with His preaching?

If  there was a need for his preaching, he would certainly do so. There is the last religion and the truth in revealed. There is no need for his preaching.

Why was Jesus the only prophet raised to Allah to actually stay with Allah?

He will come back again when  Isa a.s. will be a Muslim to the last religion revealed to the last prophet, Mohammad s.a.w.a.

after his coming back,  ALL people of the book will believe in him before his death.



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 8:10pm

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59082&FID=10 - myahya - no I meant when Jesus was first place on the cross, half way through the crucifixion, or near the end of His life?  Did His body raise or just His soul?  Who were the witnesses? 

 
It sounds like you are saying there was no need to preach after Jesus?


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 17 July 2008 at 11:13pm

Believer: no I meant when Jesus was first place on the cross

Isa a.s. has never been crucified. There is no doubt at all that he is not killed nor crucified according to the literal words of Quran.

Allah s.w.t raised him up. Was his body raised up or his soul as well? It seems to me both his body and soul were raised up almost at the same time that people wanted to kill him. Allah s.w.t raised him up and people killed another person instead of him by mistake. Allah’o’alam. However, regardless of whether his body is also taken up or not, he will come back again on this earth. When he comes back he will kill the Antichrist (Dajjal) with his hands and will pray behind a man among Muslims.

It sounds like you are saying there was no need to preach after Jesus.there was no need to preach after Jesus?

If you mean new religion or revelation as a religion by “preaching”, there is no need for that as Islam is the last one. When Isa a.s. comes back, it is not for preaching a new religion. Although, today, many Christians may not accept the Islam or the last prophet Mohammad s.a.w.a. but Isa a.s. does not have to follow Christians, does he? Isa a.s. preached the news of the last prophet many times when he was on the earth (as Moses a.s. did).



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 22 July 2008 at 7:00pm
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59082&FID=10 - myahya - Who do you think was put on the cross in place of Jesus?  Why doesn't it say in the Quran that another was substituted for Jesus and the name of the person?
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 1:02am
Believer: Who do you think was put on the cross in place of Jesus?

It is not written in Quran, may be in Hadith it can be found I have to search.

Why doesn't it say in the Quran that another was substituted for Jesus


When it says in Quran "it was made (or appeared) to them", the first and straight forward meaning one can imagine is that somebody else was crucified (who was appeared to them as Isa a.s.)


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 24 July 2008 at 1:05am
 
 For Nur Ilahi:   I had posted the words of the authentic Hadith as follows:
 
 By the One in whose hand is my life (i.e. Allah), surely Isa ibne Maryam will descend amongst you as a just judge. He will break the cross and kill the swine and abolish Jizyah......"
 
 Please consider the words of the Hadith. If they are acceptable then try to give your comments about the above Hadith.  Thereby please explain this all important Hadith (words of the holy prophet s.a.w.s.).  Welcome.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 25 July 2008 at 7:30am
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59082&FID=10 - myahya - ok,  I see how we have interpreted the words differently.
 
"it was made to them" to me means that Jesus' body died but He was not truly dead because His spirit was alive, but the witnesses could not see that because as humans we can only see the outward form of the body.
 
Jesus' spirit did go to the souls in prison to preach while His body was in the tomb so He was away from GOD.  This is spiritual death for the Christian- being away from GOD.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 25 July 2008 at 11:45pm
 
 Dear Believer, we Muslims do not believe that Jesus was god. We believe that he did not die on the cross. That is the teaching of the Quran.
 
 We cannot understand your beliefs. You believe that Jesus was god. Then you believe that he died too. How could a god die? Then you believe that while he was dead for three days, Jesus was in hell. Horrible beliefs.
 
 You are building youir own religion and turning into different alleys the way you like. You people believed in the original sin, that every human being is a sinner, even a one day new born baby is a sinner. Why is that? For that you invented the death of Jesus on the cross so that he take away the sin of the people.
 
 First you make the all people sinners, even a new born baby and even all prophets you make sinners (except Jesus). That is a funny selective attitude. Then you want to kill Jesus, an innocent person, for the sins of others. Why? It is not fair to kill some one for the sins of others. If a crime (sin) is committed by A and B, you kill C for their crimes.
 
There is Trinity too. Unexplanable Trinity. It was John who wrote "in the beginning was word. The word was with God. The word was god." Quite strange sentence. The word was with God. The word was God. How could that be? It means that God was with God.
 
 Who told that to John? Mathew and Luke and Mark did not know about all that. Why? That is three against one. These words are not of Jesus. So who told all that about the word business to John. He was nobody to invent something which even Jesus did not say and did not know.
 
 Believer, there are many complications in the church teachings. We Muslims have simple teachings. You can believe what you like and teach what you like. There is no harm to us. But please consider our points too. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 July 2008 at 6:59am
It doesn't matter if you believe Jesus is GOD, but you must believe that He died on the Cross for you!!
 
What you call horrible is actually beautiful. 
 
LOL!!  I didn't make them sinners their own nature did this.  Where does it say in the Quran that all are sinless, or any are sinless?
 
You don't have to believe in the Trinity!!
 
GOD's Word the Quran says the same about Jesus, He is GOD's Word.  How amazing that GOD's Word could be made flesh.  You believe that GOD's Word was made Quran!!  Some Muslims believe the Quran always was.  Just as the Bible says of GOD's Word Jesus.
 
Just because the other Bible authors didn't write it doesn't mean they didn't agree with John.  How could it be explained in a more beautiful way?
 
GOD told John what to write down for all to read!!
 
Yes I am considering your points, but there is much confusion in whether to believe hadith or Quran only- why do you have to rely on hadith to understand GOD's Word?  Why are there words that no one understands- what is GOD's point in that?!? 
 
The most important thing that MUST be studied: 
 
Why can the very words of the Quran be translated into another language and match up with the Bible stories when in anopther they do not!!


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 27 July 2008 at 12:31pm
 
  Believer, God has many words. Not just one (Jesus). That word was some order for the creation of Jesus. That was to "Be" and he was. That does not make Jesus or that word as God.
 
 God has many words. Those are not God.
 
 If you are taking support from Quran then Quran only says "it was a word from Allah". The Quran also says that Jesus is not God. So please believe that too. Do not believe just one sentence. Thanks.
 


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 28 July 2008 at 12:46am

Believer: "it was made to them" to me means that Jesus' body died but He was not truly dead because His spirit was alive, but the witnesses could not see that because as humans we can only see the outward form of the body.

Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death?



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 28 July 2008 at 6:32pm
No remember Jesus' body was resurrected so body and soul reunited and He was raised to heaven and sits at the right hand of GOD.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 29 July 2008 at 1:25am
my question was about his death not after it.


Posted By: relaxjack
Date Posted: 07 August 2008 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by believer

No remember Jesus' body was resurrected so body and soul reunited and He was raised to heaven and sits at the right hand of GOD.
But Paul believed in a spiritual resurrection, not physical.
 
If it was a spiritual resurrection, how do you explain a spirit (Jesus) that eats among his disciples and the ability of Thomas to touch Jesus' hands?


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 August 2008 at 12:22pm

relaxjack please read -

http://www.christianorigins.com/resbody.html - http://www.christianorigins.com/resbody.html


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 13 August 2008 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by believer

No remember Jesus' body was resurrected so body and soul reunited and He was raised to heaven and sits at the right hand of GOD.
 
believer,
I thought you said before that Jesus was/is God, how than is he sitting next to... God?
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 13 August 2008 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by myahya

Believer: "it was made to them" to me means that Jesus' body died but He was not truly dead because His spirit was alive, but the witnesses could not see that because as humans we can only see the outward form of the body.

Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death?

 
The Bible tells us Jesus was Sin free so he could not die as Sin produces death:-
 
Hebrews 4:14-15
Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. 15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.
 
 


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 13 August 2008 at 8:43pm
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by myahya

Believer: "it was made to them" to me means that Jesus' body died but He was not truly dead because His spirit was alive, but the witnesses could not see that because as humans we can only see the outward form of the body.

Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death?

 
The Bible tells us Jesus was Sin free so he could not die as Sin produces death:-
 
Confused
 
 
Hebrews 4:14-15
Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. 15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.
 
 
Not sure what this verse as to do with the above.


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 14 August 2008 at 6:13am
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by myahya

Believer: "it was made to them" to me means that Jesus' body died but He was not truly dead because His spirit was alive, but the witnesses could not see that because as humans we can only see the outward form of the body.

Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death?

 
The Bible tells us Jesus was Sin free so he could not die as Sin produces death:-
 
Confused
 
 
Hebrews 4:14-15
Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. 15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.
 
 
Not sure what this verse as to do with the above.
 

It means that Jesus was sin free or a perfect man not libel to death, he could have lived forever as a human being on earth!

 


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 7:20am
honeto- Jesus is a manifestaion of GOD. 
 
Jesus is GOD's Word.  GOD is standing by His Word and His WORD is with GOD for all times.  The truth that is Jesus in the New Testament is with GOD.
 
myahya - Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death? 
 
No.  Jesus' soul is alive and well, His body died on the cross and was then ressurected.
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 August 2008 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by believer

honeto- Jesus is a manifestaion of GOD. 
 
Jesus is GOD's Word.  GOD is standing by His Word and His WORD is with GOD for all times.  The truth that is Jesus in the New Testament is with GOD.
 
myahya - Literal word of Quran says Isa a.s. is not killed. So, does it mean to you that Isa a.s. is died of natural death? 
 
No.  Jesus' soul is alive and well, His body died on the cross and was then ressurected.
 
 
 
believer,
as you say, "If Jesus is a manifestation of God", then try to understand my question that, if God manifested himself as Jesus on the earth according to you, then upon him going back he be God, not sitting next to God as you also claimed?? I hope you understand what I mean, if he is God, why is he sitting next to God?
 
Hasan  


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 August 2008 at 7:53am

 

 That was a good question. Also I would like to know whether Jesus was sinless before the incident of the cross or after that incident?. Was he a god before that incident or after that?

 



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If any one is bad some one must suffer



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