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Why do muslim countries not have strong economy?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Politics
Forum Name: World Politics
Forum Discription: World Politics
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12329
Printed Date: 20 April 2014 at 12:05pm


Topic: Why do muslim countries not have strong economy?
Posted By: deepblue
Subject: Why do muslim countries not have strong economy?
Date Posted: 27 April 2008 at 3:00am
Salam Alaikum
 
Does anyone else know the reason why none of the muslim countries do not have a strong economy ? Most of them rich but they dont manage this richness why ? Who establish the first economy? Why cannot we have an open and strong economy ?
 
We should discuss these topics first before why USA invade Iraq because we lose and are lost in economical issues for last century? If Palestean or any other muslim country who suffers would have the same economy with Israel, Would they suffer so much ?
 
We should be councious I think, brothers and sisters...
 
 
Regards
deepblue
 
 



Replies:
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 11:29pm

Originally posted by deepblue

Salam Alaikum


Does anyone else know the reason why none of the muslim countries do not have a strong economy ?

walaikum assallam

I would say Malaysia is the exception!

They observed the humiliation of their British colonial masters by another colonial power the Japanese during WWII. They had an awakening to learn the requirement  of  being a  free nation united in faith and discipline with an independent thinking national leadership who were not going to act as brown sahibs! They learned the rules of value added industry requiring high levels of technical education and rule of law!

Most of them rich but they dont manage this richness why ?
You must be thinking the oil producing countries! It is called easy come easy go!

Their richness is almost like the Nawabs and Maharajas in colonial India.

The Jewish operators under the guise of American diplomatic cover roam at will in the holy land!

Take the case of Pakistan a so called Islamic nation the day it was declared   the American base started it’s establishment in the north west.  Right now the country’s main politicos are on American payroll or they are stealing from that country and stashing in the US! The people are totally helpless!

Who establish the first economy?

According to Quran if I say it was Prophet Yusuf I won't be too far off think!

Then  Adam Smith is generally after his Wealth of Nation initiated modern economics!


Why cannot we have an open and strong economy ?

The most Muslim populated countries have been former colonies and consequently have the bad habits of people in bondage, lack of faith, discipline and integrity. In there is constant altercation about interest but the people and politician have no  qualms about loan defaults by intent  and not even pay the principal.

 The term economics comes from the Greek for oikos (house) and nomos (custom or law), hence "rules of the house(hold)."


. The places are in dire need of house cleaning before one can have the real functioning economy or rather any thing worthwhile!

I think with AKP rule Turkey's economy  is doing pretty good!.

 

We should discuss these topics first before why USA invade Iraq because we lose and are lost in economical issues for last century? If Palestean or any other muslim country who suffers would have the same economy with Israel, Would they suffer so much ?

 

We should be councious I think, brothers and sisters...

 You need to rephrase the last para about Iraq/Us/Israel/ Palestine etc- it is not clear!

 

Regards

deepblue

 

 



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 11:44pm
For Deep Blue,
 
Because, the Islamic countries have embraced 'Capitalistic' economy after about 400 years of western countries, whom you are comparing.
 
If you are comparing with the ex socialist countries, they are ahead of most of them.


-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: deepblue
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 11:35am

Salam Alaikum

Does anyone else know the reason why none of the muslim countries do not have a strong economy ?

walaikum assallam

I would say Malaysia is the exception!

Really, I went to Malaysia... I saw a part of it thats why i am not sure but I dont think that there is a strong economy in Malaysia if you mean trade yes trade can make a country rich but cannot make a real economy... in order to have a strong economy you should produce you should have factories in each sector... who produce will have a word in word politics...   
 
They observed the humiliation of their British colonial masters by another colonial power the Japanese during WWII. They had an awakening to learn the requirement  of  being a  free nation united in faith and discipline with an independent thinking national leadership who were not going to act as brown sahibs! They learned the rules of value added industry requiring high levels of technical education and rule of law!

Most of them rich but they dont manage this richness why ?
You must be thinking the oil producing countries! It is called easy come easy go!
 
Yes it is true You are right!
 
 
Their richness is almost like the Nawabs and Maharajas in colonial India.

The Jewish operators under the guise of American diplomatic cover roam at will in the holy land!

Take the case of Pakistan a so called Islamic nation the day it was declared   the American base started it’s establishment in the north west.  Right now the country’s main politicos are on American payroll or they are stealing from that country and stashing in the US! The people are totally helpless!

Who establish the first economy?

According to Quran if I say it was Prophet Yusuf I won't be too far off think!

Really, I did not know that. Now I learned thank you ! What kind of economy did Yusuf implement ?  

Then  Adam Smith is generally after his Wealth of Nation initiated modern economics!

I know Adam Smith but who first practice it as a country as a nation ?
 

Why cannot we have an open and strong economy ?

The most Muslim populated countries have been former colonies and consequently have the bad habits of people in bondage, lack of faith, discipline and integrity. In there is constant altercation about interest but the people and politician have no  qualms about loan defaults by intent  and not even pay the principal.

Turkey has never been a colony but still It has problems with its economy... I think it is related with politics

 The term economics comes from the Greek for oikos (house) and nomos (custom or law), hence "rules of the house(hold)."


. The places are in dire need of house cleaning before one can have the real functioning economy or rather any thing worthwhile!

I think with AKP rule Turkey's economy  is doing pretty good!.

No I dont think so... Can you tell me one thing that They have done for Turkish Economy so far despite of that great power they took! It is related with mentality.   

We should discuss these topics first before why USA invade Iraq because we lose and are lost in economical issues for last century? If Palestean or any other muslim country who suffers would have the same economy with Israel, Would they suffer so much ?

 

We should be councious I think, brothers and sisters...

 You need to rephrase the last para about Iraq/Us/Israel/ Palestine etc- it is not clear!

Ok. I meant who has a strong economy who produces has a word in world politics and who does not have economy unfortunately does not have a word too in world politics and suffer!
 
deepblue

 



Posted By: deepblue
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 11:39am
Originally posted by nu001

For Deep Blue,
 
Because, the Islamic countries have embraced 'Capitalistic' economy after about 400 years of western countries, whom you are comparing.
 
If you are comparing with the ex socialist countries, they are ahead of most of them.
 
I dont think so, most of the muslim countries like Asian countries are socialist. They could not establish a Capitalistic economy...


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by deepblue

Originally posted by nu001

For Deep Blue,
 
Because, the Islamic countries have embraced 'Capitalistic' economy after about 400 years of western countries, whom you are comparing.
 
If you are comparing with the ex socialist countries, they are ahead of most of them.
 
I dont think so, most of the muslim countries like Asian countries are socialist. They could not establish a Capitalistic economy...
 
Your view is too simplistic, you mean anyone not socialist is capitalist economy. ME hosts the largest number of Muslim countries and they definitely didn't have a truely capilalistic economy. Almost like the Socialists, their investments were also mostly in the hand of the state. what do you think they were doing that the socialists were not doing, except the religious factor?
 
You cant take the example of Mal & Indo and call that all Islamic countries. I think except Pakistan and Afghanistan there is no Islamic country in Asia (Less ME). Rest all are secular democracies.


-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 11:21pm
In one breath you are talking of aunt Eekanomi and in the same breath you refuse to accept Eekanomi with Uncle Industria!
 
Primarily, sir, aunt Eekananomi doesn't lay eggs in a place which does not have grandfather Justice there. Rizq grows only in a healthy society. Plus, rizq is not just the number of factories a country has, what about the National contentment factor? 


-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Syed Nasruallah
Date Posted: 06 July 2008 at 4:05am

the muslim countries were ecnomicaly back, because they use their money & mind only in fightning with each other, but not to get united & work for one misison  of Prophet Mohammad SAWW. they need to have a stratgic view over it and work for & onbehalf of imparting education to their children & to work hard for their economic reconstruction.

 
 
thanks
 
wa salam alykum wa rahmatu allah wa barakata hu


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 20 August 2008 at 11:29am
We should discuss these topics first before why USA invade Iraq because we lose and are lost in economical issues for last century? If Palestean or any other muslim country who suffers would have the same economy with Israel, Would they suffer so much ?
 
I wonder if anyone could come up with the prescription for Palestine to have a good economy - with all that blockade, persecution and destruction on daily basis?
 
Most other economies are sucked up and made to evaporate by IMF and the World Bank prescriptions. I suggest we should read Professor Stiglitz and Naomi Klien on this matter.


-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Megatron
Date Posted: 14 September 2008 at 11:13am
Here's my two cents. 
1.  We don't provide our women with the same educational and professional opportunities so 50% of our population is not realizing its potential.
2.  We are often controlled by dictators or dysfunctional governments.
3.  We value strength and sabre rattling over intelligence and diplomacy.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 08 November 2008 at 12:18pm
I love it when some interesting half baked thesis is floated!
 
1.  We don't provide our women with the same educational and professional opportunities so 50% of our population is not realizing its potential.
 
And grooming women as workhorses and Mortgage contributers will carve some healthy society?
 
How many happy women do you ever see on the 7:40 from Paddington or anywhere else? I had asked that question from a woman friend, a famous barrister and a writer, a few years ago while we were travelling in the London tube.
 
We counted faces.
All carried that slave sadness in them!
 
Sir, where and how do you coin your concespts?


-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Megatron

Here's my two cents. 
1.  We don't provide our women with the same educational and professional opportunities so 50% of our population is not realizing its potential.
2.  We are often controlled by dictators or dysfunctional governments.
3.  We value strength and sabre rattling over intelligence and diplomacy.
 
Megatron, you are very insightful and use outstanding judgement.  I agree with your 3 reasons 100%.
 
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 10:08am
Originally posted by Whisper

I love it when some interesting half baked thesis is floated!
 
1.  We don't provide our women with the same educational and professional opportunities so 50% of our population is not realizing its potential.
 
And grooming women as workhorses and Mortgage contributers will carve some healthy society?
 
How many happy women do you ever see on the 7:40 from Paddington or anywhere else? I had asked that question from a woman friend, a famous barrister and a writer, a few years ago while we were travelling in the London tube.
 
We counted faces.
All carried that slave sadness in them!
 
Sir, where and how do you coin your concespts?
 
Grooming women as workhorses is sooo ridiculous a statement.  All women deserve the opportunity to a good education.  If they choose to stay home and be a housewife and mother, that's wonderful.  But no woman should be kept down simply because she is a female.  Look at all the extremely intelligent lady doctors, lawyers, writers, business owners, scientists, etc., etc.  They deserve the right to a career just as much as anyone else.  I loved working in hospitals and caring for others when I was younger.  My own physician is a wonderful doctor AND a woman.  Perhaps if more men gave real thought to how they are harming their own countries by the fallacy that women are really unhappy to be educated and working, their homelands would begin to show great improvement. But it's much easier to blame everyone else than to face the truth.
 
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 11:07am
3.  We value strength and sabre rattling over intelligence and diplomacy.
 
What great observation! 
My friend, when we say something as publically as, say, on this forum, then we are bound to substantiate what we have said. I wonder if you would be able to quote some examples of when and where los pobre Mozlems rattled sabres and what strengths they ever had to value?
 
Or are we just trying to fry just a few browny points with some ultra right wing red necks, here?
 
I remember Sabre, it was almost the F 18 of its day. It's not a very difficult task to see who has had more Sabres to rattle!
 
I never realised that it was the Mozlems who were valuing their strengths in some Bagdad street or at those defenseless Afghan pueblos?
 
No, I know, what you mean, yes los Palestinos are rattling their sabres around the globe and scaring the hell out of everyone!
 
Or those terrible Kashmiris are out in the open with all their weaponry and holding the rest of the world to ransome?
 
My friend, it does help to think a little before speaking. I had always taken you as a Canadian, well, didn't know that it was such a porus border for such influence to seep through.


-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 11:19am
Grooming women as workhorses is sooo ridiculous a statement. 
 
Just please tell me what do you really know about my part of the world and our women, not the ones who have run away to the US but the ones who are here, in my villages and towns?
 
And, what great society have you carved with your part time motherhood? Money, opportunity, some great plastic temples with those tin gods!
 
Bless you, please, keep what you have and we will make with what we have. Rudyard Kipling found and defined the great divide and how we live on its either sides. The world does NOT run just by the standards you have in the US.


-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 11:38am
Originally posted by Whisper

Grooming women as workhorses is sooo ridiculous a statement. 
 
Just please tell me what do you really know about my part of the world and our women, not the ones who have run away to the US but the ones who are here, in my villages and towns?
 
And, what great society have you carved with your part time motherhood? Money, opportunity, some great plastic temples with those tin gods!
 
Bless you, please, keep what you have and we will make with what we have. Rudyard Kipling found and defined the great divide and how we live on its either sides. The world does NOT run just by the standards you have in the US.
 
Please spare me your wealth of knowledge, Sasha!  I know as much or more about women than you ever will!  I may have not carved any great society, but I did my best to improve it and to help provide for my family and my children.  They are all well educated, happy, and devoted to God. For that, I give God all the Glory!  Kindly keep your snide remarks toward my religion out of this thread.  Just because you disagree with my comments gives you NO right to degrade my Catholic faith.  I would never stoop to degrading the Islamic religion.  You are very rude, and very mistaken on many issues my friend.  Your remarks which are intended to insult my religion only set a poor example for Islam....fortunately I know what your temper can cause you to say.....many other non-Muslims do not, and your statements are of the type that cause great harm between the faiths.
 
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 11:57am
Kindly keep your snide remarks toward my religion out of this thread.  Just because you disagree with my comments gives you NO right to degrade my Catholic faith. 
 
Are you on something, Patty?
Can you show how and where I have made any snide remark on your religion or on any faith? Can you read plain simple English?
 
You must be the only one in the whole wide world to force my reference to Cap It All ism's Tin Gods + Plastic Temples.
 
Anyway, you do provide a good laugh at times.
Please. just tell me what you know about my street and our women?


-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 10 November 2008 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Whisper

Kindly keep your snide remarks toward my religion out of this thread.  Just because you disagree with my comments gives you NO right to degrade my Catholic faith. 
 
Are you on something, Patty?
Can you show how and where I have made any snide remark on your religion or on any faith? Can you read plain simple English?
 
You must be the only one in the whole wide world to force my reference to Cap It All ism's Tin Gods + Plastic Temples.
 
Anyway, you do provide a good laugh at times.
Please. just tell me what you know about my street and our women?
 
Why don't you try speaking in plain English then?  And, NO, I am not "on something."  Unless it's wrong in your eyes to eat ginger snaps and drink a glass of water.  I'm quite sure I am not the only one to "force your reference"....not hardly, Sasha.  Nice try though.
 
I'm glad I am able to provide you with a good belly laugh or two....it's obvious you can use them.  
 
About your street and women.....which street in which country would it be to which you are referring?  You have so many different residences, I can't keep track of which one you're talking about.
 
 


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 1:51am
Whisper,

Its a proven fact that when a woman has an education, her children prosper better than women who do not have an education.  This goes directly towards her ability to raise them.

Also, women who have an education fare better when tragedy strikes the family.  I point out often about the time when my husband hurt his back and I became the only income in the home.  If I hadn't been educated, we would have been homeless and destitute.

In the uncertainty of war and famine, women with educations will fare better if something happens to her husband.  She will not be reduced to begging in the streets.

In a perfect world, a woman would have a husband, sons, brothers, father etc to support her.  But the world is imperfect.  A society where the women are educated will florish. 

A perfect example of this is the Golden Age of Islam.  Khadija was a merchant, Aisha memorized the Quran and more Hadith than any other.  It was the women who supported Muhammed (pbuh) and it was they who carried it forward. 

If the Middle East and Central Asia want to rise from poverty, education needs to be provided to all children.  Women doctors need to be trained so that infant mortality and women's health issues are addressed in the confines of the modest lifestyles.  Women teachers need to be trained for schools and women need to participate in government to protect their sisters from the ever present corruption.

Its not about trotting women out and making them slaves of a two income household.  Its preparing them for disasters and helping them to strengthen their community. 

Sasha, you are so quick to jump in and enjoy when Duende, Mariyah and myself are online.  But, I come from a poor family...  I would not be able to be here had I been born in some areas of Africa or Asia.  My mother would not have had a high school education and she would not have been able to make sure that her two daughters got a college education.

The prosperous nations do not ignore the contributions from half their populations.  Malaysia is a prime example.  You look at pictures from around Kuala Lampur and you see women in Hijab walking around the business centers with briefcases. 

I want to see the Muslim world succeed in pulling itself out of poverty.  I told my husband I have a dream of taking the "$100 Laptops" and going to Afghanistan and teaching young girls how to utilize this glory of technology to prosper.  Maybe if God grants me the resources, someday I can do that.  How wonderful would it be for a young woman to provide the education and resources so that her sons and daughters can go to college.  Or how a young farm wife would be able to help her husband by researching modern farming techniques and finding international buyers over the internet? 

Poverty leads to instability, war and corruption.  Education is a tool to get out of poverty.  It shouldn't be denied to anyone.


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 4:38am
Originally posted by Angela

Whisper,

Its a proven fact that when a woman has an education, her children prosper better than women who do not have an education.  This goes directly towards her ability to raise them.

Also, women who have an education fare better when tragedy strikes the family.  I point out often about the time when my husband hurt his back and I became the only income in the home.  If I hadn't been educated, we would have been homeless and destitute.

In the uncertainty of war and famine, women with educations will fare better if something happens to her husband.  She will not be reduced to begging in the streets.

In a perfect world, a woman would have a husband, sons, brothers, father etc to support her.  But the world is imperfect.  A society where the women are educated will florish. 

A perfect example of this is the Golden Age of Islam.  Khadija was a merchant, Aisha memorized the Quran and more Hadith than any other.  It was the women who supported Muhammed (pbuh) and it was they who carried it forward. 

If the Middle East and Central Asia want to rise from poverty, education needs to be provided to all children.  Women doctors need to be trained so that infant mortality and women's health issues are addressed in the confines of the modest lifestyles.  Women teachers need to be trained for schools and women need to participate in government to protect their sisters from the ever present corruption.

Its not about trotting women out and making them slaves of a two income household.  Its preparing them for disasters and helping them to strengthen their community. 

Sasha, you are so quick to jump in and enjoy when Duende, Mariyah and myself are online.  But, I come from a poor family...  I would not be able to be here had I been born in some areas of Africa or Asia.  My mother would not have had a high school education and she would not have been able to make sure that her two daughters got a college education.

The prosperous nations do not ignore the contributions from half their populations.  Malaysia is a prime example.  You look at pictures from around Kuala Lampur and you see women in Hijab walking around the business centers with briefcases. 

I want to see the Muslim world succeed in pulling itself out of poverty.  I told my husband I have a dream of taking the "$100 Laptops" and going to Afghanistan and teaching young girls how to utilize this glory of technology to prosper.  Maybe if God grants me the resources, someday I can do that.  How wonderful would it be for a young woman to provide the education and resources so that her sons and daughters can go to college.  Or how a young farm wife would be able to help her husband by researching modern farming techniques and finding international buyers over the internet? 

Poverty leads to instability, war and corruption.  Education is a tool to get out of poverty.  It shouldn't be denied to anyone.
 
Outstanding post, Angela.  I heartily agree.
 
Peace to you always,
Patty


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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 11:34am
Nice try though.
 
What makes you think that am going to try something just for frying some browny points with you?
 
Plastic Temples and Tin Gods have nada to do with ANY faith at all. This is my pet reference for the great Cap It All itis and CONSUMERISM. Do you understand?
 
Give me just one good reason why I should run anything Catholic down?


-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 11:39am
Outstanding post, Angela.  I heartily agree.
 
You can agree absolutely as far as your circumstances run, in your set up. But who says that the ENTIRE world is run like the US? And the US conditions apply everywhere?
 
That's where the Amreekanos make absolute mess of things in the world.
 
This post does not apply to our Tribal culture.


-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by Whisper

Nice try though.
 
What makes you think that am going to try something just for frying some browny points with you?
 
Plastic Temples and Tin Gods have nada to do with ANY faith at all. This is my pet reference for the great Cap It All itis and CONSUMERISM. Do you understand?
 
Give me just one good reason why I should run anything Catholic down?
 
Mea culpa.  I have trouble following your "pet references" sometimes.
 
There is no good reason why you should run anything Catholic down..I'm glad to see I was wrong in my thinking.  Forgive me, Sasha.
 
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 11 November 2008 at 8:46pm
Can there not be a balance??
 
honestly, you see people, most men and women, now working up to 12 hours in a working day. Supposedly to then have time and energy to enjoy their families.
 
Then you have women who have no access to an education, a basic one of that in parts of the world.  
 
One thing that I noticed in my travels is that for women not facing poverty, they lived, generally, a good communal life.  It is the struggles of women and men in poverty, and who often lack access to education that is where the trouble lies.
 
Yes we need women doctors and teachers. But not everyone can do those jobs. Should women have just as good as education as men, absolutely.
 
But our society has changed, motherhood is less then the"ideal." This is even more so in Europe and othger parts of the world, like Japan where birthrates are declining. Unfortunately one's work is often how we are defined and how we define others.
 
Somewhere we need balance ang give people the basics to survive and yet not become caught up in this dunya.. a fine line I think...


-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 4:37am
Originally posted by Hayfa

Can there not be a balance??
 
honestly, you see people, most men and women, now working up to 12 hours in a working day. Supposedly to then have time and energy to enjoy their families.
 
Then you have women who have no access to an education, a basic one of that in parts of the world.  
 
One thing that I noticed in my travels is that for women not facing poverty, they lived, generally, a good communal life.  It is the struggles of women and men in poverty, and who often lack access to education that is where the trouble lies.
 
Yes we need women doctors and teachers. But not everyone can do those jobs. Should women have just as good as education as men, absolutely.
 
But our society has changed, motherhood is less then the"ideal." This is even more so in Europe and othger parts of the world, like Japan where birthrates are declining. Unfortunately one's work is often how we are defined and how we define others.
 
Somewhere we need balance ang give people the basics to survive and yet not become caught up in this dunya.. a fine line I think...
 
Yes, there should be a balance, Hayfa.  I think what concerns me are those women who are starved to learn, to obtain an education.  They are capable of doing many things other than highly professional careers.  Many could successfully operate a safe, high standard day care center for women who are working.  They could learn how to start and run a business of their choosing, such as a bookstore, art supply store, sewing business, etc.  The opportunities are endless for a woman who has an education which will give her the basics of working for herself or at a job which she enjoys and find interesting.  This would help her self-esteem, and bring money into the home to help with household expenses.  Even for women who do not care to work outside the home, an education would enable her to feel she is equal in intelligence to other educated women.  She would enjoy reading about a variety of issues, managing money more efficiently, etc.  I think all women deserve the right to an education, and it is sad that some women are denied that right simply because they are a woman.  I've known women in Eastern Kentucky, not far from where I was raised.  They were not educated then, and they were very sad, unhappy women.  Things are changing there now, but change comes slowly.  I cannot think of any positive or good reason for depriving a woman of an education.
 
God's Peace,
Patty


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 6:23am
Originally posted by Whisper

Outstanding post, Angela.  I heartily agree.
 
You can agree absolutely as far as your circumstances run, in your set up. But who says that the ENTIRE world is run like the US? And the US conditions apply everywhere?
 
That's where the Amreekanos make absolute mess of things in the world.
 
This post does not apply to our Tribal culture.


Tribal Culture is fine.  There is no reason why adaptation will not benefit the Tribe.  The whole point of a Tribal Structure is to provide a network of support and security.  Tribes were formed in times before formal governments and today are a source of cultural identity.  Many tribal cultures are being lost and do you know who is preserving them?  Members of tribes who have left and become educated and came back to enrich and preserve. 

Just because you introduce education into a society does not mean that captialism and Western society follows.  However, the prevention of education for fear of that encroachment is simply unwise.

For example, many of your countrymen are farmers and livestock traders.  Image how much more productive a man can be if his sons go to college and learn modern agricultural techniques.  The farmers cannot make ends meet in some areas and turn to poppies because the money is better.  But if they could learn to get a better yield from a more Halal crop, how is that not work in a tribal society.  If he becomes more productive, he might be able to hire field workers, thus creating jobs.

The thing is education is never wasted.  I know a dear friend who has a degree in Biochemistry.  She has two daughters and stays at home and does not work.  As soon as the girls were old enough to start to learn to talk, she started to teach them to read.  Her oldest daughter is barely 4 years old and uses a computer, reads easy books and can do basic math.  She is a wonderful child.  I'm sure the youngest who just turned one will be the same way, she's already showing interest in what her sister is doing.

My dream of seeing education flourish in the tribal areas is not to destroy the Tribal society, but to enrich it.  There are still some very stone age customs that thrive in areas where there is little education.  Men who beat their wives (and this happens in poorer areas of the US too...), justice systems that are less based on evidence and fact than social standing and custom, and the abuse of children.

When you look at your family and friends, what do you want to see for them?  Sanitary conditions, schools, hospitals, employment, solid social programs to help the poor and the sick?  Or do you want to see bad roads, poor health and rampant unemployment?

Education is key to bringing prosperity.  Educating women passes these values to their children.  When a woman is educated, she is aware of her worth and she is even more prepared to help her family succeed.  This does work in a tribal society.

I will tell you at times I hear about the "tribal" customs of some regions and I cringe.  The brutality that happened to 3 girls trying to elope and 2 women who only begged for mercy...  done for the honor of the tribe.

Husbands and wives being torn apart in divorce because one was from an inferior tribe. 

In Albania, in the tribal regions, for a woman to have equal rights to a man she had to swear to be an eternal virgin and take on the persona of a man.

In Indonesia a Muslim community clings to pre-Islamic traditions of 5 genders and communicating with the dead. 

In India, tribal regions drag women from their homes and kill them as witches.

These are customs that are unnecessary with education.  They do not fulfill the purpose of a tribe which is to strengthen the family and provide security and support.

Yet, in Dubai, a traditionally tribal region, education is flourishing.  They now have the premier research facility in the world for Autism.  The center was opened by a powerful and educated wife of the Sheikh.  I talk to women from the UAE several times a week at work who are programmers and web designers.

Who provides the medicine to the women in your tribal regions?  I'm sure its not very Kosher to have male doctors doing gynecological exams?

Tribal Culture and Economics need to be separated.  Tribal Culture and the access to Education need to be separated.  One has to look at their "culture" and see what is important and what has become a tool to oppress.

In the old country, no one would think a thing if my great-grandfather drank himself st**id and beat my grandmother.  There she was just property and should know her place.  Here, her son's were educated and they stood up to their father and told him to clean up his act.  Her life improved because of education.  Even if it was indirectly.  I think you've fallen into the trap of using "tradition" as excuse.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 11:02am
I agree with you Angela. Unfortunately do to peoples' actions, outsiders who show no respect to other peoples' values, they are ineffective.
 
Education is one aspect to ending violence. Just one. one needs to work within the cultural construct. When I was in Pakistan I met a foreign woman trying to help women who were vicitms of violence using western models. That did not work.  Instead she should o her reseach, respect the culture and needs of people, use other models from other cultures instead of imposing our model.
 
 
 
 


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 12:47pm

Angela

We have had a long debate going in our part of the world about the difference between education and schooling. We have had some great scholars digging at it for almost good few decades.

Schooling just trains a person to become a consumer.

Education is something different and nobler, my own Foundation educates women but with a slightly different view we may have in the US.

 

Its a proven fact that when a woman has an education, her children prosper better than women who do not have an education.  This goes directly towards her ability to raise them.

 

Prosper needs to be defined.

Prosper in what sense?

Also, women who have an education fare better when tragedy strikes the family.  I point out often about the time when my husband hurt his back and I became the only income in the home.  If I hadn't been educated, we would have been homeless and destitute.
I agree with you more than 100%.

That’s of utmost importance in the US and in all those countries where life has been reduced to a man, his wife and, if they can afford, a kid or two. In these set ups (I find it hard to call these societies) the greatest responsibility we have is to our Mortgage, to the Money Lender who owns our house.

 

But no one becomes homeless in cultures where traditional family housing is available to the whole clan or the tribe.


In the uncertainty of war and famine, women with educations will fare better if something happens to her husband. She will not be reduced to begging in the streets.
In a healthy society I have never seen anyone being reduced to begging in the streets. In the cultures I am talking about, out of my own experience, a man and a woman don’t get married, two families and a whole set of clans get married and share responsibility not just of the woman but all her family.


 A society where the women are educated will florish. 
Shall I ask you just one question?

We have a lot of schooled women in the US, what society have we got there?

 

A perfect example of this is the Golden Age of Islam.  Khadija was a merchant, Aisha memorized the Quran and more Hadith than any other.  It was the women who supported Muhammed (pbuh) and it was they who carried it forward. 

I have never for one moment discouraged women from education and ventures as long as she just doesn’t turn into some Honorary Man!


If the Middle East and Central Asia want to rise from poverty, education needs to be provided to all children. 

Angela, the Middle East and the Central Asian States are some of the richest in the world. They have real money, liquid cash, their money doesn’t exist just on their computer screens.

 

Its not about trotting women out and making them slaves of a two income household.  Its preparing them for disasters and helping them to strengthen their community. 
So, a woman can strengthen a community by just playing some part time mother?


Sasha, you are so quick to jump in and enjoy when Duende, Mariyah and myself are online.  But, I come from a poor family...  I would not be able to be here had I been born in some areas of Africa or Asia.  My mother would not have had a high school education and she would not have been able to make sure that her two daughters got a college education.
I like education, I just fail to consider it noble if it’s just aimed at productivity, better prospect and more dollars. In fact, I find it out right vulgar.

The prosperous nations do not ignore the contributions from half their populations.  Malaysia is a prime example.  You look at pictures from around Kuala Lampur and you see women in Hijab walking around the business centers with briefcases. 
Great! In fact, I love Malaysia, long story. But is a Business Centre the only thing that nurtures society?


I want to see the Muslim world succeed in pulling itself out of poverty. 

My friend, if the Muslim world is rife with such poverty then why is Uncle Sam and their cousins from the other side of the Atlantic are trying do hard to get into it by hook or crook and at such an expense of blood and money?

 

I told my husband I have a dream of taking the "$100 Laptops" and going to Afghanistan and teaching young girls how to utilize this glory of technology to prosper.  Maybe if God grants me the resources, someday I can do that.  How wonderful would it be for a young woman to provide the education and resources so that her sons and daughters can go to college.  Or how a young farm wife would be able to help her husband by researching modern farming techniques and finding international buyers over the internet? 
How will she ever go on line in Afghanistan?

Plus how can anyone ever find foreign buyers for anything? The western countries have an embargo. Plus, I have experience of our women, they like their men to look after them.

 

It may be very hard for people at the other end of the Great Divide (Rudyard Kipling) to understand that some women do enjoy being Full Time mothers. All the women know, they do. And a 3.4 million strong sample must carry some weight.


Poverty leads to instability, war and corruption. Education is a tool to get out of poverty.  It shouldn't be denied to anyone.

I am sorry, I had always thought that the US was quite an educated country. The largest numbers of wars are started by the US, directly or as their proxies.

 

Tribal Culture is fine.  There is no reason why adaptation will not benefit the Tribe. 

Our experience is that imported concepts don’t grow in our cultures. In my world the tribe has not become something of collector interest as yet.


Western society follows. 

Society is a very different thing than the set up that has grown in the industrialised countries.


For example, many of your countrymen are farmers and livestock traders.  Image how much more productive a man can be if his sons go to college and learn modern agricultural techniques. 

In some places life doesn’t just flow with productivity. In a SOCIETY there are many other ingredients.

 
My dream of seeing education flourish in the tribal areas is not to destroy the Tribal society, but to enrich it. 

How do we enrich society? Just by making it more productive?

 

When you look at your family and friends, what do you want to see for them?  Sanitary conditions, schools, hospitals, employment, solid social programs to help the poor and the sick?  Or do you want to see bad roads, poor health and rampant unemployment?
Honest, good governance is needed for these things.

Education is key to bringing prosperity.  Educating women passes these values to their children.  When a woman is educated, she is aware of her worth and she is even more prepared to help her family succeed.  This does work in a tribal society.
We will need to define; Prosperity, Worth and Success.

These values are not exactly the same in every part of the world. In some countries, a woman’s worth is defined by how many kids she has and how they INTERACT with the people around.

 
The brutality that happened to 3 girls trying to elope and 2 women who only begged for mercy...  done for the honor of the tribe.
That was sad and the most unusual of a tribe, it was more because the chaps were politically well connected.
 
These are customs that are unnecessary with education.  They do not fulfill the purpose of a tribe which is to strengthen the family and provide security and support.
Angela, education for better behaviour is one thing, schooling for prosperity is just a wee different.
Who provides the medicine to the women in your tribal regions?  I'm sure its not very Kosher to have male doctors doing gynecological exams?
They have an interesting traditional medication system – free of Pharma Giants exploitation – we have loads of health visitors. Please, try and understand, I am not against noble education. I have a problem with vulgarity of schooling aimed at increased dollar production.


I think you've fallen into the trap of using "tradition" as excuse.

I could not have done that even if I tried my best, I have been educated in Europe, have always lived here, at least a good 5 months of my life. Angela, I had tried a few interesting projects when I was forced in to a position my father never accepted, for whatever reasons. I reached the point that the women in this part of the world want their men to look after them!

I learnt my lesson and left them to it.



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:24pm
I should define what I call prosperity.  Its not wealth... 

One can be rich without being wealthy.  My husband and I have a little car and an old SUV for the winter.  We have a modest 2 bedroom house that we rent and most of our furniture is bought from IKEA and other discounted furniture stores.  I consider us prosperous.  We are not wealthy... we struggle in a poor economy, but I have enough money for food on the table and we have money for taking care of ourselves.

I see every winter massive amounts of food aid going into areas that are poor...  The people there do not have enough resources to provide for their families.  They may have one meal per day and its not very nutritious.

This is what I mean about bringing prosperity.  Good jobs don't bring wealth, they bring a means to provide for a family.  Prosperity is the farms producing enough food for the people in the area and the people in the area being able to afford (even through barter) to purchase that food.

Enrich - what I mean by enrich society is by innovation.  Muslim scholars brought us algebra, astronomy, poetry, innovations in cryptology and medicine.  These innovations came from men and women who lived in the security of a Tribal community with traditional values.

Its true that governments in the Middle East are wealthy.  But, the average person is not as well off.  Men and women in Bahrain require help from their Sultan for welfare and that is the richest country in the world.  

Pakistan is suffering from a split personality.  On one hand, they are growing and on the other, inflation and poverty are hurting the poorest of citizens.

I find it a bit of a paradox that we are so maligned by the rest of the world for our excesses, yet I see 1000s coming here every year for an opportunity they do not have in their home countries.

There are those of us here in the US that would like things to be much simpler.  I think we are feeling the pain of that excess with our collapsing economy.  Greedy people buying homes they could not afford and greedy lenders taking advantage of people who don't understand the complicated world of mortgages.

It would be nice to live with my family for 10 years and have the money to buy a house outright.  However, I feel that I would have killed my father in law in that amount of time... LOL   It would be nice to be able to go to my sisters house and drop off my children if I had to work.  Or watch her children if she had to work. 

I do feel you are being a bit optimistic that women don't fall through the cracks.  Her father may be dead, she may have had no brothers or sons...  Everyone else is marriageable in Islamic society.  I would maybe be able to go live with a cousin or even my inlaws if I were widowed because in this country marrying your cousin is illegal.  A muslim woman does not have those choices.  She must quickly get married if she has no mahrams and society has not provided for her to be self-sufficient.

I want to stay home when I have my first child and while they are too young to go to school.  That is a desire of almost every woman.  However, the idea that opening opportunity is a bad thing... that is beyond me.

Perhaps its just that Afghanistan has been repeatedly smashed for nearly 30 years that things are so completely off kilter there.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:31pm
Hayfa,

That is one of the reasons why I would like to someday go to those areas and help women learn to use a computer.

An Afghani woman doesn't want to go out and work like a man.  I don't blame her.  But she might be able to learn how to sell her sewing online all over the world and help provide for her family.  Or she might even be able to work from home as a computer programmer or web designer and it would allow her to tend her children without worry about babysitters and daycare.  Not to mention how she could help her children with their schooling using that same computer.

I would not counsel a domestic violence victim in that part of the world the same way I would here.  Instead of the "leave the bum" line that women get here.  It would be more geared to her culture, her religion and her opportunities.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:35pm
Originally posted by Angela


It would be nice to live with my family for 10 years and have the money to buy a house outright.  However, I feel that I would have killed my father in law in that amount of time... LOL  
 
Really?!  For some reason I thought only mother-in-laws were problematic.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 1:44pm
I don't have a mother in law, she passed before we were married.  However, my father in law is ummm, how to put this nicely.....  insane.  Wacko

I adore him.  I love him like a father, but we have very different personalities and opinions.LOL


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 8:16pm
Hayfa: Thanks for the link!

The prophet of the politics Machiavelli is absolutely clear in what he wrote in treatise The Prince;  that is almost a protocol for colonialists of past and the  neocolonialists of present time!

Every western leader has followed this line beside taking God's name in vain!
The people in bondage in Muslim lands have no other way but to know Machiavelli's edicts so they can prepare a  true antidote for their freedom from neocolonialist's control! Then and only then they will be able to own what they will build and then there will be no talk of want or economy will be  a non issue!

The Prince

by Nicolo Machiavelli


CHAPTER V

Concerning The Way To Govern Cities Or Principalities Which Lived Under Their Own Laws Before They Were Annexed

WHENEVER those states which have been acquired as stated have been accustomed to live under their own laws and in freedom,

there are three courses for those who wish to hold them:

I.the first is to ruin them,(Indian nations of Americas, African slave trade)

II.the next is to reside there in person,( Colonialism of Americas, and Muslim lands in Asia / Africa)

the third is to permit them to live under their own laws, drawing a tribute, and establishing within it an oligarchy which will keep it friendly to you.(Current neocolonialism of Asia & Africa inc ME)

Because such a government, being created by the prince, knows that it cannot stand without his friendship and interest, and does its utmost to support him; and therefore he who would keep a city accustomed to freedom will hold it more easily by the means of its own citizens than in any other way.

The Muslim countries are in structured bondage I quote a sample below:
file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - King Faisal I of Iraq to the British high commis­sioner, Iraq/Mesopotamia, August 17, 1921

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - Allah has a macro cycle for the nations as follows:

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - From bondage to

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - 1.Faith in the Cause

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - 2.great courage to face the enemies within & without

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - 3. liberty/ Leadership/ Justice

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - 4.abundance

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - 5.selfishness

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - 6.complacency

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - 7. apathy

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - 8.dependence & back to bondage again!

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - Just think if Mao didn't have the faith for the long march! 

Finally look AT THE US IT IS AT THE 5TH STAGE AND SLIPPING ! living off on the borrowed money from the votaries of Mao who America refused to recognize for a long time!

 Wow What can be better example than this my friends! 

But you know some of the resourceful areas of the Muslim world(ME) skipped the first three and juggling between stage four and five!or even down to sixth stage!

A microcosm of this sample you can see in places like http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-brooks13-2008nov13,0,5513249.column - Dubai 

The scene at Dubai's luxury Burj al Arab hotel is anything to go by, there's  robust demand for hotel rooms that start at about $1,500 a night and bikinis that cost $800. This level of consumption is impressive, especially when you consider that the super-rich must struggle with a serious unemployment problem-- almost none of the designer-clad men and women who grace the Burj al Arab appear to have, uh, jobs. But they cope bravely with this situation, finding in it an opportunity to pay culturally enriching visits to Dubai's many beaches, nightclubs and shopping malls.!

And this supposed to be Muslim countryWink



file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 12 November 2008 at 9:48pm

I should define what I call prosperity. 
In some way, I do understand what you mean, but is such a So tatty (I would not honour any such place by calling it a Society!) worth living in – where a woman doesn’t have her place as a DEPUTY CREATOR and can feel her “worth” only when she becomes a work horse and pays her way through the Terms Of Enslavement, the mortgage.

 

Angela, I would have been the greatest admirer of this system just if I had not known it so well!

 

One can be rich without being wealthy. 
We are discussing just the economic aspects, continually. I understand that. In some parts of the world, a woman would wish to be really rich – with something that only her Creator can grant her and soonest – her grandchildren!


Prosperity is the farms producing enough food for the people in the area and the people in the area being able to afford (even through barter) to purchase that food.
You know I am farmer. My lands were producing good crops for hundreds of years. I took charge at a very st**id age. I was a freshly cut graduate! I knew everything about life that anyone needed to know. I put in “better” practices – my yields increased, I was producing over 32 to 40 tonnes of cane from an acre! Fan simply tastic!

In 30 years my lands have died. They are poisoned by what Exxon has been selling me. (And, please, don’t tell anyone, I had got my manager appointed as their Regional Agent)

After all this prosperity, we are producing nada sugar cane.

There is no natural model of continued growth.


Enrich - what I mean by enrich society is by innovation.  Muslim scholars brought us algebra, astronomy, poetry, innovations in cryptology and medicine.  These innovations came from men and women who lived in the security of a Tribal community with traditional values.
They had a whole millennium of a great time, the chap who started this string must be strung by a nylon wire for his lack of sense.


Men and women in Bahrain require help from their Sultan for welfare and that is the richest country in the world.  
That is the culture there, they work on that model, this US model doesn’t and it won’t fit just everywhere.


Pakistan is suffering from a split personality.  On one hand, they are growing and on the other, inflation and poverty are hurting the poorest of citizens.
Yes, absolutely, but then what do you get when you import the American value system and live on their standards?


I find it a bit of a paradox that we are so maligned by the rest of the world for our excesses, yet I see 1000s coming here every year for an opportunity they do not have in their home countries.
Yes, Allah has created some for the ultimate suffering and He sends them to there hells even on this earth.


There are those of us here in the US that would like things to be much simpler.  I think we are feeling the pain of that excess with our collapsing economy.  Greedy people buying homes they could not afford and greedy lenders taking advantage of people who don't understand the complicated world of mortgages.
It’s plain, the Shylocks of our world would die without their pounds of real human flesh. The system is based on bleeding humans.

It would be nice to live with my family for 10 years and have the money to buy a house outright.  However, I feel that I would have killed my father in law in that amount of time... LOL   It would be nice to be able to go to my sisters house and drop off my children if I had to work.  Or watch her children if she had to work. 
Yes! But don’t you agree that it would be the best system in which the both of you could watch your children and neither of you was required to play for those Terms of Enslavement?

I do feel you are being a bit optimistic that women don't fall through the cracks.  Her father may be dead, she may have had no brothers or sons...  Everyone else is marriageable in Islamic society.  I would maybe be able to go live with a cousin or even my inlaws if I were widowed because in this country marrying your cousin is illegal.  A muslim woman does not have those choices.  She must quickly get married if she has no mahrams and society has not provided for her to be self-sufficient.
Angela, all I believe is that a system that doesn’t assign woman with her basic natural “worth” of a Deputy Creator is a scam, a plain simple fraud and absolutely haram.
I want to stay home when I have my first child and while they are too young to go to school.  That is a desire of almost every woman.  However, the idea that opening opportunity is a bad thing... that is beyond me.
Absolutely. Thank goodness, I will die a happy man (well I nearly did on 12th June) in my community every woman holds and enjoys her status as a Deputy Creator. And, this Deputy Creator decree is my invention, because for ever I took God to be a bit better, more powerful and loving than my mother! For me, she was His Deputy. I may be wrong but for me that’s what she was!

-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 4:46am
Originally posted by Whisper


Absolutely. Thank goodness, I will die a happy man (well I nearly did on 12th June) in my community every woman holds and enjoys her status as a Deputy Creator. And, this Deputy Creator decree is my invention, because for ever I took God to be a bit better, more powerful and loving than my mother! For me, she was His Deputy. I may be wrong but for me that’s what she was!


I have a personal question my dearest Sasha.  What worth would I be in your society?  I am not a deputy creator.  I would have no value, no place and no options.  This "Deputy Creator" thing would leave me less than a dog.  And I mean that with all the pain and sadness in my heart.  Its all fine and good for woman to be measured in worth by her motherhood.  But what about the rest of us. 

I saw this in the news today.   I just thought I would add it to the numerous articles. 


Two schoolgirls blinded in acid attack in Afghanistan



Two men on a motorcycle used water pistols to spray acid on girls walking to school Wednesday in the southern Afghan city of Kandahar, blinding at least two of them, military spokesmen said.

U.S. Col. Greg Julian said Afghanistan's National Military Command Center told him that four girls were hurt in the incident. Two were blinded and remain hospitalized, and two were treated and released, he said.

The men escaped after the attack, and no one claimed responsibility for it, but Arab-language network Al-Jazeera said Taliban militants were suspected to be responsible.

The incident occurred about 8 a.m. near Mirwais Nika Girls High School in the Meir Weis Mena district.

Kandahar government spokesman Parwaz Ayoubi gave different figures on the number of girls injured, saying six were burned, one of them severely. He called the attackers "enemies of education."

Girls were forbidden to attend school under the Taliban, which ruled the country from 1996 to 2001, when U.S.-led forces removed them from power.

According to Al-Jazeera, the girls were attacked with battery acid. Two teenage sisters, one of whom suffered serious burns, were among the victims.

"We were on the way to school when two men on motorbikes stopped next to us. One of them threw acid on my sister's face. I tried to help her, and then they threw acid on me, too," Latefa, 16, told the Qatar-based satellite network.

"We were shouting, and people came to see what was going on. Then the two men escaped," she said.

Latefa told Al-Jazeera that she was hurt, and her 18-year-old sister was in serious condition with acid burns on her face.

Al-Jazeera said schoolgirls in Kandahar can be recognized by their uniform of black pants, white shirt, black coat and head scarf.

The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan condemned the incident, as well as a suicide bombing that occurred near a government building hours later that killed and wounded several civilians, including women and children.

"These cowardly acts reflect how dishonorable the insurgents truly are," Gen. David McKiernan said in a statement posted on the Web site of the International Security Assistance Force.

"No one can honestly say they are fighting for the people, then purposefully attack innocent women and children," he said.



Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 1:14pm
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=10655326&ch=4226714&src=news - http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=10655326&ch=4226714&src=news


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 3:23pm
These men are the very epitome of evil.  I pray the girls will recover and be well, but they will obviously be scarred.  Very sad and troubling.

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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 8:42pm
These men are the very epitome of evil.  I pray the girls will recover and be well, but they will obviously be scarred.  Very sad and troubling.
 
I like you Patty, BUT please you will have the right of talking about any men, good or evil, ONLY when your evil men have left our lands. Period
 
Their presence in our lands has been a tool of provocation. Not that I expect you to understand it, but I am declaring it in genaral idiotic American public interest.


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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 13 November 2008 at 8:51pm
I have a personal question my dearest Sasha.
 
Angela, your whole question is travelling to Madrid with me, just in an hour and I will be here long before I leave for the UK.
 
We can't taste the whole of society just with a few freak incidents, specially, when most of these freak incidents are inspired and conducted by various intell services!
 
I am not going to credit just the CIA, but the ISI, the RAW and even, will you believe it, MOSSAD are in the game.


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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 14 November 2008 at 3:52am
Whisper, I am as seduced as the next woman by the declaration of woman as a Deputy Assistant Creator. I agree that women in Western society have largely been downgraded from their once respected role as such, to a role as mere 'productive' members of society, where production=wealth creation. I love the idea that women reach self-realisation, satisfaction if you will, by giving birth. But I know that this is simply not true for every woman.

Is it right to sanctify life? Obviously and emphatically yes. But is it right to equate a woman with God? Is it right to sanctify women as deputy creators, as something close to the divine? I think not, this creates some impossible conundrums. God is beyond us, by elevating a woman’s fertility to Godliness, is to place a burden upon her shoulders which no man could bear, let alone a woman. Perhaps this is one reason why we have known no great female prophets. Why did God entrust his message only to men? We know women are not less intellectually capable than men and the old excuse that women ‘have not been allowed to’ be like men works only up to a point. History is dotted with great female writers, artists, musicians, scientists etc. But they are tucked away in the pages of ‘exceptions to the rule’. Their society and circumstances did not allow for their complete recognition and they remain exceptions, and modern women are still trying to have them removed from the exceptions category and simply taken for granted, as we do the few great men.

The feminist push for women's education and eventual consideration as man's equal is confronted by this basic undeniable fact: women bear children and men do not. But what sort of consideration, under your Deputy Creator title do childless women have? The choice not to have children is often conscious and deliberate, not simply due to personal circumstances, or biological 'defects'. In the old days, a childless woman was called 'barren'. To be barren. Imagine the term; a waste land where nothing at all will grow. Imagine being described, your whole self, summing you up as a useless patch of wasteland. Lorca wrote a very powerfull theatre work about a barren woman in deepest Andalucia, called ‘Yerma’, it was inspired and set in a small community here in Almeria. On the other hand, an infertile man receives no similar label, yet I am sure his pain is no less accute.

If western society is to achieve anything more than a semblance of equality and balance between the sexes, then it must ACCEPT women- the feminine- in ALL her aspects. In a debate on Spanish TV after the appointment of a heavily pregnant woman to the post of Defence Secretary, a female journalist said in an intensely passionate and improvised speech: if you want to involve women in every aspect of society, in government, institutions, in the work place etc., you MUST accept her in all her manifestations: single, married, pregnant, mother and not a mother.
This is the basic paradox Western society has yet to embrace (there's not much else you can do with paradoxes ....) it is common knowledge that prospective employers (despite laws requiring complete equality) will rather look for a woman they can be sure will not one day announce her pregnancy and require subsequent paid maternity leave. A sign of the failure of the feminist movement is the fact that often these discriminating employers, are themselves, women

Angela, your dream of taking computers to the women of Afghanistan is wonderful, but it seems similar to taking digital watches to the Guarani tribesmen of the Amazon. Our Western desire to help people we perceive to be backward and lacking is often terribly mistaken in its assumptions, and woefully misguided in its intentions. As Whisper points out, often the women we wish to help by providing them with a key to independence, resent us for actually taking them out from under the protective role of their husbands.

You seem to want to separate the cultural traditions from 'education', you say: "Tribal Culture and Economics need to be separated. Tribal Culture and the access to Education need to be separated. One has to look at their "culture" and see what is important and what has become a tool to oppress"

but I think it is far better to try to incorporate, to include and adapt education within the millenia old traditions of tribal culture, rather than create an 'either or' education. Cultures do not change. Here in Spain there are many many aspects of the culture, at the 'street' level if you like, which are almost exactly as they were during the days of the Moorish rule. That this is so, is hotly denied by such statesmen as our previous president, Aznar, and people totally immersed in the centuries of Arab denialism Spanish society is just starting to come to terms with, and which was instigated by and largely kept alive here, by the Catholic church. But the mere fact that Spaniards go on holiday by the thousands to Muslim lands and find a weird sense of feeling at home, is testament to the persistence of cultural habits, customs, perspectives etc., despite the ravages of time, the efforts of reformers, or the edicts of laws.

.(... I just want to come back and by way of edit, add that I don't condone nore wish to see perpetuated throughout time the barbaric 'customs' perpetrated against women in some tribal cultures! It's just that I do not think one can change many aspects of a culture from the outside ... time has shown that with good governance, and yes, education, societies can rectify their ways: we gave up witch burning quite a few years ago!)


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 14 November 2008 at 5:29am
Originally posted by Whisper

These men are the very epitome of evil.  I pray the girls will recover and be well, but they will obviously be scarred.  Very sad and troubling.
 
I like you Patty, BUT please you will have the right of talking about any men, good or evil, ONLY when your evil men have left our lands. Period
 
Their presence in our lands has been a tool of provocation. Not that I expect you to understand it, but I am declaring it in genaral idiotic American public interest.
 
I like you too, Sasha, but don't try to tell me what I may say or when I may say it.  Your bashing of anything and everything American interfers with good sense, and makes for only more hatred.  Something I would love to see disappear.  Angela brought the subject of these girls to light.  Why do you not correct her for revealing it in the first place?  I don't take orders from you, Sasha.  If the moderators tell me I cannot express my opinion then I will comply.  You are allowed great leniency on this board because of who you are, I would never (for example) get away with calling the public interest in Afghanistan "idiotic"......But then I would not insult any country as a whole by doing so in the first place.


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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 14 November 2008 at 7:47am
Deunde, very good post! Clap
 
 


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 15 November 2008 at 2:21pm
Duende,

Thank you for your post.  You pointed out exactly what I was trying to say and far more elegantly.  In western society, (which I do NOT consider perfect), I am given some worth even if I'm "barren."  However, in other areas where a woman is thought of on a local basis as the domestic anchor and simply the mother of the next generation, I become labeled and worthless.

My dream for the computers is not one that can be done under the current conditions but it is actually with cultural ideas in mind.

There are still many men in Afghanistan who do not like the idea of their wives and daughters traveling and working without their Mahrams.  Giving women and assess to income without them having to travel or interact outside of their social boundaries would help them.

I want to prevent situations where women are reduced to begging when war and famine ravage a country.  In a society that expects women to refrain from unnecessary contact with no related men, the internet gives her access to medical information, communities of Muslimahs or other women and a source of income.

Otherwise, this is what happens.

Afghan girl begs for bread, prays for help


Little Banafsha wakes up in her small mud home, has a cup of tea and braces herself for the day ahead.

She is just 11 years old but she is the breadwinner for her family. Literally. Without the bread that she begs from strangers, she, her sisters, baby brothers and mom would all go hungry.

Her father is a drug addict, focused only on his next high, her mom cares for the little ones and heavy responsibility falls on Banafsha's young shoulders.

Every day she heads far from her home, trekking up and down steep hills to the wealthier parts of the Afghan capital where she can but hope richer people will take pity on her.

She is not bitter, explaining: "My two younger sisters also work. They beg for bread and sell gum -- there's no choice."

When she gets to the Wazir Akbar Khan district, a hangout of diplomats and aid workers, she unwraps her folded rice sack.

"Sir, do you have some bread?"

Banafsha clutches the bag tight as she walks from building to building, eyeing who will help and who will not.

"Sir, do you have some bread?" she asks again.

This is her recitation for the next six hours, as she darts around in her worn blue plastic sandals, knowing that danger could be there at any turn, even in this more affluent neighborhood.

"A few days ago, some girls were kidnapped around here and many people have gone missing. The girls' mother still comes around here looking for them but they still haven't been found," Banafsha says.

This time of the year the sun begins to set at 4:30 p.m. in Kabul. But Banafsha continues to roam the dark streets. The 6 o'clock rush hour is her peak business time.

Her eyes well up with tears, but she doesn't allow them to fall, quickly wiping them away and biting her thumb like the vulnerable child that she is.

She prays everyday, "I say 'God take me out of this poverty and have my father go work so I can go to school.' "

She dreams of being a teacher and for three hours a day she gets to be a little girl with big dreams.

On her way to beg, Banafsha stops off at a center run by an Afghan nongovernmental organization called Aschiana -- the name means "nest" in Dari -- for a little education, a little recreation and a glimmer of hope.

The first center opened in 1995 for 100 children. By June 2008, Aschiana had eight centers catering to 7,600 children in the capital city of Kabul alone.

The group thought it had secured a major source of funding in March this year, but the money never arrived. Four centers had to be closed in June, sending 4,000 children back to the streets without their three-hour reprieve.

Inside, Banafsha and the other children get to laugh. In every room there is a sense of serenity, whether the children are practicing brush strokes for calligraphy, tumbling around in judo or gliding their little fingers over the harmounia, a type of piano used in music class.

For now, the center is surviving on small, private donations, but it is not enough. Aschiana stopped providing food for the children at three of the remaining centers because they couldn't afford it.

Without that relief, even more children head back to the streets to beg for the smallest morsels to fill their empty stomachs.

On a good day, Banafsha will trek back across the steep hills to the home she helped her mother build with some bread in her bag and maybe 50 cents.

At home, the work continues. As the eldest sister she tends to her siblings. Her mother relies on her help; her father is only focused on his next high.

Finally, she will sleep. But tomorrow, Banafsha will walk down into the crowded city streets again, among the estimated 60,000 other street kids in Kabul, dreaming of a better life.


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 15 November 2008 at 11:56pm
Angela: " In western society, (which I do NOT consider perfect), I am given some worth even if I'm "barren."

Exactly, that's what I was getting at in reply to Sasha's elevation of woman as the Supreme Breeder!

We in the West know there is so much more to women, because we have had the circumstances (political and social stability, access to ideas and education,) we've been allowed to discuss and argue with men etc, etc, all of this led us down the path to the place women have attained generally in societies of developed countries such as the US and Central and Eastern Europe, Russia and most of the ex-soviet territories.

As you say, of course, this doesn't mean we are in a perfect place, or that all women are now blissfully happy! Each indiviual woman's circumstances are different, but it is vital that each and every one have access to all of these things, even if, at the end of the day, all they wish is to be a stay-at-home mom. (Now I know that's a controversial subject, giving rise to something called "the Mommie Wars"- the paradox of the working woman versus the stay-at-home mom.)

Quote: "I want to prevent situations where women are reduced to begging when war and famine ravage a country."

I support you in that.

I can't read the rest of your post, as I find these things quite simply unbearable. And it pains me deeply that there seems to be so little I can do to change the criminal policies and choices made by all the parties involved in maintaining such circumstances. I also find too many of these articles simply smack of propaganda, ultimately ensuring a particular image and assumption is held by those of us who have never had to deal with such extremes, and who have little hope of ever visiting Afghanistan, or Somalia, Iraq or even Palestine. Once this image is fixed, it leads to stereotyping and makes us easy victims of manipulation and false expectations.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 4:28am
Duende,

I can understand not being able to read it.  I once read an article about a forced abortion of a woman in China who did not get the proper permit to have her child.  The local authorities killed the baby at 8 months to term and left her infertile.  I promptly went to the bathroom and threw up at the inhumanity and cried for an hour.

What changed the US was World War II.  My Aunt was a Rosie Rivoter and many of my grandmother's generation had to step out of the house while our men were fighting the Nazis and the Japanese.  When the men came home, most women went back home and did their patriotic duty and had more children.  (Hence the Baby Boomers)  But, a number of them were empowered by having their own money and not having to depend on a situation that was not always dependable.  These women just wanted some independence. 

I blame women's current troubles in the US on Feminists.  I really do.  They were so short sighted on a number of topics.  They thought bra burning would free us.  Instead of being slaves to the house, we are now slaves to sex and culture.   Living expectations also changed.

Everyone has to have 2 cars, a big house, a pool, new TV, expensive toys.  There kids have to be in soccer, ballet, karate, music lessons and no one sits down and has dinner together anymore.

I don't believe that our way is the best way.  Nor do I believe that what some others have is best either.  There was a woman on TV who builds schools in Africa.  She felt Oprah's school was obscene.  She could have been 200 schools all over Africa for 1000s of children for the price Oprah paid for one school for a handful of girls.

I do agree with Whisper and you that bringing education to an area should be done with culture and need in mind.  Right now, we just need schools that are safe for the boys and girls.   If they can get a handle on the thugs and drug dealers....


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 4:57am
I also think that the 60s had a profound affect on people. First was TV. This was the time of Vietnam. And it was the time where people, average Americans saw the "dirtiness" and immortality of most wars. People, th young were angry. And many were conscripted to go fight a phantom enemy. I think it had a profound affect on people.
 
People blame things on the "feminists,"  who were these people?? We glorify the women who worked in the factories in WWII who did not wantto go back to being Suzy home-maker. Is she to blame? Who are the feminists? People use that term as if a few academics at universities were the causes in the changes in the society. I just don't buy it.
 
Women went out more and more into the labor force, by choice or not (economics.) There was far more mixing in society. Where do most affairs take place.. the work place.
 
We view it as a few college kids having a party as the cause for these profound changes and I just don't but it. TV changed the world.  Far more than anything else did.
 
I read an interesting book about the Lies they Taughht in school and one was about Vietnam. And you know the people who were the most supportive, up until the end, were the well to do people. Those living in the two car houses etc. Those of the upper economic class. They were the least negatively affected by the war. And those who benefitted from the status quo.
 
And remember, that growing up, in a Christian tradition-Cathloic one, you read how Eve "tempted" Adam. Eve was at fault, how Women could not divorce. etc. etc. I rejected this teaching. I did not like its anti-woman stance. Still do not. You leave this as a young person and where can you go? At the time never heard about Islam... so you head out into the main, big world. I wil largue that for other women I know, they left for these, and other reasons as well. And questioned the fundamentals of Christianity. Where did one go?? 
 
 
We also like to talk about everything.. and in a sense, we talk to "end the shame" but it also can have the negative affect of making things more acceptable. So behaviors then seem normal.  For instance. Young girl screws up, gets pregnant. Used to be you hid it,  gave baby away etc. Well people started to talk about it so she does not "feel bad." Wel lthen it became acceptable to be unwed and pregnant. Growing up that was not the case for me, even in the early 80s. But TV changed everything.
 
And actually, bras can be quite torturous, would you not agree?? lol
 


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 6:48am
Originally posted by Hayfa

I also think that the 60s had a profound affect on people. First was TV. This was the time of Vietnam. And it was the time where people, average Americans saw the "dirtiness" and immortality of most wars. People, th young were angry. And many were conscripted to go fight a phantom enemy. I think it had a profound affect on people.
 
People blame things on the "feminists,"  who were these people?? We glorify the women who worked in the factories in WWII who did not wantto go back to being Suzy home-maker. Is she to blame? Who are the feminists? People use that term as if a few academics at universities were the causes in the changes in the society. I just don't buy it.
 
Women went out more and more into the labor force, by choice or not (economics.) There was far more mixing in society. Where do most affairs take place.. the work place.
 
We view it as a few college kids having a party as the cause for these profound changes and I just don't but it. TV changed the world.  Far more than anything else did.
 
I read an interesting book about the Lies they Taughht in school and one was about Vietnam. And you know the people who were the most supportive, up until the end, were the well to do people. Those living in the two car houses etc. Those of the upper economic class. They were the least negatively affected by the war. And those who benefitted from the status quo.
 
And remember, that growing up, in a Christian tradition-Cathloic one, you read how Eve "tempted" Adam. Eve was at fault, how Women could not divorce. etc. etc. I rejected this teaching. I did not like its anti-woman stance. Still do not. You leave this as a young person and where can you go? At the time never heard about Islam... so you head out into the main, big world. I wil largue that for other women I know, they left for these, and other reasons as well. And questioned the fundamentals of Christianity. Where did one go?? 
 
 
We also like to talk about everything.. and in a sense, we talk to "end the shame" but it also can have the negative affect of making things more acceptable. So behaviors then seem normal.  For instance. Young girl screws up, gets pregnant. Used to be you hid it,  gave baby away etc. Well people started to talk about it so she does not "feel bad." Wel lthen it became acceptable to be unwed and pregnant. Growing up that was not the case for me, even in the early 80s. But TV changed everything.
 
And actually, bras can be quite torturous, would you not agree?? lol
 
 
I agree, Hayfa.  TV, the introduction of hard rock/heavy metal music, and Hollywood filth were the great contributors to the loss of high moral standards in the 60s.  I fell victim to that myself (sad to say.)  But only by the grace of a loving God did I find my way "home."  And on the optimistic side, many others have returned to decency too, but the trappings of materialism, sex, and immoral behavior are thrown daily into the faces of our young people today.   I feel very badly for them, and try to ensure that my four grandchildren are exposed to more healthy ventures, such as sports, reading great books, the importance of God and Church in their lives, and even exposure to one of my favorite interests, classical music. They do enjoy all these things and two of my grandchildren (one graduates this year) have had nothing but straight A's since kindergarten. Okay, I know I am a bragging grandmother.  My point is it's up to this generation to instill constantly the virtures which we may have rejected in our younger years.  I refuse to see any Hollywood movie lower than GP, never read gossip mags, rarely watch TV except for documentaries and the news.  There is MUCH we can do to turn these precious young people around.  They are looking to us to set limits and to discipline them.  They are so lost!  It is our responsibility to make every effort to be consistant in our DAILY efforts to attempt to help them behave in a manner acceptable to God.   (I'm done rambling for now.)
 
Peace,
Patty


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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 7:41am
Angela:
"I blame women's current troubles in the US on Feminists. I really do. They were so short sighted on a number of topics. They thought bra burning would free us. Instead of being slaves to the house, we are now slaves to sex and culture.   Living expectations also changed."

Agreed.

Hayfa, I don't think Angela is singling out a particularly identifiable group, I don't know, was there ever an 'official' Feminist movement with its own offices, letter heads and spokeswoman? There is of course a complete list of books relating to the 'feminist movement, but I don't even think they had a 'mission statement' or was there also a 'feminist manifesto'? One of the supposed 'Doyennes' (let's call her a Queen)of the movement wrote recently how absolutely sinfull it is for women with brains, accumen, degrees or what have you to opt out of the rat race and simply stay at home and become mothers. As far as she is concerned it is a disservice to society, for a woman not to fulfill her working worth. Bah!

Yes, the feminist movement has produced a hotch potch of ideas and mixed results. Another confusing aspect of it is the inclusion of lesbianism as some kind of inalianable right, alongside the job as CEO, or fire'man' and soldier (soldierette?).

Has anybody watched the series "The Century of Self" ? It shows you how the tools of TV, and advertising generally have been used to brain wash the masses (i.e you and me). It's worth Googling until you find a collection, some of it is probably still up on Youtube. It also explains how the burning bra incident was invented, actually the result of some passing comment, not a conscious act. Yet, there it is, burned into our collective subconscious as something concrete and far reaching....

Hayfa: "And actually, bras can be quite torturous, would you not agree?? lol"

Absolutely! My mother once saw a report telling of the African women who received some clothes packages from the West: they wore the bras on the outside of their sweaters and tops. Wasn't it Howard Hughes who famously designed the 'cantilever' bra, using the same engineering as a bridge? I wonder what he was thinking .. ..

Patty, you are right about giving youth the best tools for a morally and ethically good upbringing. The things we like to complain about, about the youth of today, are timeless: I think all parents and grand parents throughout the ages have despaired at some point or another of the behaviour and choices of their succesors. Isn't it a hopefull sign, and a sign of the basic goodness of humans generally, that we've managed to get this far without descending into some variation on hell? (or is that a questionable conclusion?)


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 7:58am
Originally posted by Duende

Angela:
"I blame women's current troubles in the US on Feminists. I really do. They were so short sighted on a number of topics. They thought bra burning would free us. Instead of being slaves to the house, we are now slaves to sex and culture.   Living expectations also changed."

Agreed.

Hayfa, I don't think Angela is singling out a particularly identifiable group, I don't know, was there ever an 'official' Feminist movement with its own offices, letter heads and spokeswoman? There is of course a complete list of books relating to the 'feminist movement, but I don't even think they had a 'mission statement' or was there also a 'feminist manifesto'? One of the supposed 'Doyennes' (let's call her a Queen)of the movement wrote recently how absolutely sinfull it is for women with brains, accumen, degrees or what have you to opt out of the rat race and simply stay at home and become mothers. As far as she is concerned it is a disservice to society, for a woman not to fulfill her working worth. Bah!

Yes, the feminist movement has produced a hotch potch of ideas and mixed results. Another confusing aspect of it is the inclusion of lesbianism as some kind of inalianable right, alongside the job as CEO, or fire'man' and soldier (soldierette?).

Has anybody watched the series "The Century of Self" ? It shows you how the tools of TV, and advertising generally have been used to brain wash the masses (i.e you and me). It's worth Googling until you find a collection, some of it is probably still up on Youtube. It also explains how the burning bra incident was invented, actually the result of some passing comment, not a conscious act. Yet, there it is, burned into our collective subconscious as something concrete and far reaching....

Hayfa: "And actually, bras can be quite torturous, would you not agree?? lol"

Absolutely! My mother once saw a report telling of the African women who received some clothes packages from the West: they wore the bras on the outside of their sweaters and tops. Wasn't it Howard Hughes who famously designed the 'cantilever' bra, using the same engineering as a bridge? I wonder what he was thinking .. ..

Patty, you are right about giving youth the best tools for a morally and ethically good upbringing. The things we like to complain about, about the youth of today, are timeless: I think all parents and grand parents throughout the ages have despaired at some point or another of the behaviour and choices of their succesors. Isn't it a hopefull sign, and a sign of the basic goodness of humans generally, that we've managed to get this far without descending into some variation on hell? (or is that a questionable conclusion?)
 
Yes, Duende, it is true that each generation has dispaired over the behavior of their young people.  I am not convinced it is a hopeful sign, perhaps it is, or is it only by the grace of a merciful God who has not yet chosen to put His blessed foot down and end this dispicable sinfulness? I think at the Final Judgement we will know, but not until then.
 
Patty


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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Hyposonic
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 9:16am
"Everyone has to have 2 cars, a big house, a pool, new TV, expensive toys.  There kids have to be in soccer, ballet, karate, music lessons and no one sits down and has dinner together anymore."
 
 
(Looks around)
 
Um, where do you ge tthe idea that "we" have that?


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 12:07pm
Obsessive sex culture: as I reflected upon my life hourney, one can look at TV and the changes.. I remember as a teen watching soaps after school or watching Dallas at night. This is where people sleep around, cheat, lie etc.
 
Cable was the next step and the advent of MTV.
 
And the culture..what sells to the demogrphics of the younger folks: sex sells. All over the world actually.. lol Lots of people are obsessed... So the TV folks, in it for the money (except PBS) started promoting shows, products that infer many things. You'd think we would be saturated.. clearly not.
 
I agree people were short-sighted.. and I think that has to do with a certain level of idealism.. that there are simple solutions for often complex societal issues.  For one, acces to education. This was limited back in the day. Wel lthat has changed and women are now having higher acceptance and graduation rates than men.  Does it change things yet.. but is the alternative to limit women's education? of course not.
 
Now if we all could fix it here on the internet...lol
 
 


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 19 November 2008 at 4:53pm
I like you too, Sasha, but don't try to tell me what I may say or when I may say it. 
 
My friend, your admin has lost you the right to say anything, at all till your boots are on my land. Period.
 
When you get your boys out of there, we will talk about a horde of issues. 
 
I say, when you get those boys out of there because you are the one who keeps beating about democracy and all that in the US. Till you occupy our lands, you are not just idiots but the worst criminals in the world, war criminals!
 
It has nada to do with hatred at all, but with plain simple truth. Why should I ever come to hate a country that has nothing from my point of view, it's bankrupt and stands as a war criminal across the world.


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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 20 November 2008 at 10:14am

Patty,

 

I am allowed to participate in this thread because I have consistently confessed my national sins and have sought expiation.

 

As a side-note, and returning to topic, even though “pan-Islamism” is the big spooky bugaboo against which the secular, militant and increasingly unified West –not to mention the Zionists- must presumably fight, I sometimes wonder if it would be better not only for Muslims but for all of us if Muslims predominantly within the Middle-Eastern region could merely (Servie smiles): (1) abandon nationalism and all nationalistic aspirations (Palestinians in this case notably included); (2) form a working and effective Commonwealth; and (3) reestablish the Caliphate.  Not necessarily in that order.

 

The above, by the way, is meant to be sung to the tune of John Lennon’s ode to atheistic Marxism, Imagine.

 

Serv

 

It’s Just what we needed:  Hillary Clinton is the new Gertrude Bell!



Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 20 November 2008 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Whisper

I like you too, Sasha, but don't try to tell me what I may say or when I may say it. 
 
My friend, your admin has lost you the right to say anything, at all till your boots are on my land. Period.
 
When you get your boys out of there, we will talk about a horde of issues. 
 
I say, when you get those boys out of there because you are the one who keeps beating about democracy and all that in the US. Till you occupy our lands, you are not just idiots but the worst criminals in the world, war criminals!
 
It has nada to do with hatred at all, but with plain simple truth. Why should I ever come to hate a country that has nothing from my point of view, it's bankrupt and stands as a war criminal across the world.
 
I have every right to say whatever I believe....unlike some who are denied that right by their corrupt "governments."  I am fully aware of the many faults of my country, Sasha.  What makes you think "I" could get our MEN out of there????????  There is nothing I would rather see then all American men and our allies' men back in their homelands. 
 
Whatever you write has EVERYTHING to do with hatred.  Even with the difficulties my country has at this time, I do not blame anyone but my government, and the greediness and spoiled brat mentality of many Americans.  I was not raised with money, therefore, I do not miss it.  I am blessed, you see.  I don't need or want money.  I have the woods, the animals of the woods, food on my table, a loving family (even though my mother is dying of a horrible illness), and most of all I have FAITH IN GOD that HE will take care of all this.  I have peace and I have freedom.  Yes, I want American men home where they belong!  Don't put this on me.....I have no control over it whatsoever, but if I did, they would never have left US soil in the first place. 
 
Oh, America has many troubles and problems, it has had many times in the past too, but I believe it will still survive as long as we believe in God and the fundamentals our country was founded on.  The bottom line is this, Sasha, even if there were no troops in the ME, Afghanistan, etc., you would still hate America and the West.  It consumes you. 
 
I hope you find peace of mind one day,
Patty
 
 


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 20 November 2008 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by Hyposonic

"Everyone has to have 2 cars, a big house, a pool, new TV, expensive toys.  There kids have to be in soccer, ballet, karate, music lessons and no one sits down and has dinner together anymore."
 
 
(Looks around)
 
Um, where do you ge tthe idea that "we" have that?

That is middle class living in say western US!


-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 20 November 2008 at 10:18pm
file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - I have a hypothesis about the Afghan freedom fighters for not letting their woman folks go to American funded school system....

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -  

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - They need the replacement of the lost fighters killed during the occupation of last seven and a general state of war for last fifty years!

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - The merciless carpet bombing of that country in the beginning of the invasion.... and air strikes do kill large number of men, woman and children on regular basis... even at weddings and funerals so what plan will make up the dead?

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - The population ratio of the invading countries vis- a- vis file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - Afghanistan file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - is 20 to 1 and it is quite remarkable that they have hung in there against such odds!

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - So do you think the educated women would have played the role of making up the losses? NOT really!

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -  

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - Look around here in the file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - US file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - they can't make the quotas, they have been sending any alien they could find legal or not .....I am told they are sending file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - Who is checking on the contracted killers? Lkes of Blackwater etc

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - I may be wrong till some one provides a better long term human resource strategy during a protracted war....it is survival of the fittest and it is not an issue you and I discuss at the dinner table!

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -  

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - If nothing else the war has destroyed US balance of payments and turned her -   POTUS educated by the profs of 60's radicalism and nurtured by leftist Zionism!

What aided his election now Can Swamp Him with the worsening crises! He better wake up soon! LA Times Business report Monday
file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - To make things worse while people were having a ball with easy money the banksters pulled the rug from under them with greatest heist in Caplitalism's history and now the capitalist world is down its knees!

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - I think the Afghan and Iraqi freedom fighters have put the file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - US file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - in the same spot as the file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - USSR file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - after her exit from that place!


Finally the thread was Muslim countries' economy!

Who has strong economy today? Everybody in the same boat of downturn and chaos!


file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml -

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - For a nice comparison please:

file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CHP_ADM%7E1%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml - Click http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259 - "Collapse Gap"



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 21 November 2008 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Finally the thread was Muslim countries' economy!

Who has strong economy today? Everybody in the same boat of downturn and chaos!
 
Iran is the least effected muslim country by the current recession as I see it, except somehow from their European bussiness contracts.
 
The US was the leading voice in their effort to close the Iranian banks and to restrict the Iranian banking system internationally. The US also under the Zionist instruction have shut the muslims charity organizations at random just by declaring they are terrorist related organization.
 
Yet now it is their own banks right in their turf that are collapsing. They threw the boemerang just for the sake of it - and the boemerang is returning. Citi bank is a worry by the look of it.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 21 November 2008 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by nothing

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Finally the thread was Muslim countries' economy!

Who has strong economy today? Everybody in the same boat of downturn and chaos!
 
Iran is the least effected muslim country by the current recession as I see it, except somehow from their European bussiness contracts.
 

I've got this by email today. I can not read the signature so I don't know the original artist but I've decided to share anyway.



Right now each USD is 9350 Iranian Rials. It used to be 70 IRRs (Iranian Rials) before the 1979 revolution. This year the minimum monthly salary is around 2'300'000 IRRs.
The inflation rate is 25%!
The unemployment is 11% official who knows what is real!
You should be able to read the numbers, The first digit is 1 (۱) and those dot's are 0s ( ۰). In the middle it's written Many Thousand Rials.


-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: nothing
Date Posted: 22 November 2008 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Finally the thread was Muslim countries' economy!

Who has strong economy today? Everybody in the same boat of downturn and chaos!
 
Originally posted by nothing

Iran is the least effected muslim country by the current recession as I see it, except somehow from their European bussiness contracts.
 

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I've got this by email today. I can not read the signature so I don't know the original artist but I've decided to share anyway
.



Right now each USD is 9350 Iranian Rials. It used to be 70 IRRs (Iranian Rials) before the 1979 revolution. This year the minimum monthly salary is around 2'300'000 IRRs.
The inflation rate is 25%!
The unemployment is 11% official who knows what is real!
You should be able to read the numbers, The first digit is 1 (۱) and those dot's are 0s ( ۰). In the middle it's written Many Thousand Rials
.
 
I thought this thread is about today's economic downturn.
 


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 22 November 2008 at 3:25pm
The discussion started about the Muslim economies way before the current MBS market crash that kicked in around September .... thread started April 27

-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 22 November 2008 at 4:16pm

Patty a queston? Were we not responsible for elected Bush Twice into office? We at least ARE accountable for better or worse cause we do "have a say."

And assuming you have been strong on your anti-abortion stance you probably did not vote for Gore or Kerry...  well.. if either have been elected would this sense stuff have happened??

i dont't actually think that Sasha hates Americans per say or the west. Many people are angry. Thie familes are DYING because the US in its arrogance but culturally and militarily decided it has the RIGHT to. If you think this war had one iota about "freedom" then honestly you've been brainwashed by this government. Sorry.

And it would be easy for you to be at "peace" you live in the woods in Maine and no one is bombing your home and shooting your family.
 
Its like if my brother was abusing my sister-in - law (which he does not) and her family was angry. I'd be pissed off and angry to. And YES I would agree that he is wrong  and should be stopped, punished and held accountable. He is my brother and I love him, but there is a higher moral standard. Just because it is my country so to speak, does not mean that I must remain loyal in the face of clear moral injustice.
 
It reminds me when white people could not understand why many black people were angry at white people in this country. How they're familes were enslaves, beaten, tourtures, treated like property, their names stolen, families destroyed, treated like dirt, dehumanized, segregated and the "why are you mad at me??"  Come on.
 
And now with internet, the whole world watches.. watches as we carpet bomb a people with little on their backs who face a winter of starvation. The world watches. And you cannot understand anger?? And yes there are Americans who "suffer." But it is all relative. And really, we did it to ourselves. no one is bombing us to smitherines...
 
And we as Americans are quite passive. Why, cause we really do lead a good life. Yeah, someone will loose their home and they'll move to an apartment. Sad, but their kids have a school. Yes we have some very poor people. But on a whole most Americans are quite well off by world-wide standards. And most Americans can care less as long as they have cheap gas. Where it comes from and hoe many peoples' lives we  destroy, they don't care.
And are most people "jealous" I don't think so, not anyone past 25.. but they are angry and how we abuse that power and destroy their lives in economic and political ways.
 
You speak about we are a "God believing" country.. well I don't think we are.. casue after 9-11 you know what it was it was revenge. people did not care who died. Let's go kill those Afghanis. Even when Paksitan offered Bin Laden. We refused. We wanted war. Did people fear God? No it was blood lust.
 
CLearly enough "God believing" people of the US believed it was alright to kill innicent people.  Becasue really the 12 people who attacked the US are dead. Dead to meet their maker. Other people may wonder what type of "God" we belieive in to kill the innocent in blood lust.
 
And actually there is nothing wrong with being angry in the face of injustice. I would say anyone with a higher moral code would be angry and be able to understand other's anger. You talk that you are upset and want "our boys home" but you cannot understand Sasha (or anyone else's anger-as you perceive it)??
 


-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 30 November 2008 at 8:19am

123 thanks Hayfa

Patty fails to understand that it's not some romantic case of hating or loving something. The sadness is that the US attempt at trying to make people love them by carpet bombing them didn't seem to work


-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Tariq abu
Date Posted: 02 December 2008 at 4:51pm
the muslims need to understand that its not just the quran that we shold be following but we should be using our minds...we know that it is better to abvoid doubtful matters but it seems as though many of the muslims are now following weak opinions knowing they can be downright wrong but they follow these doubtful opinions anyway and that is a reason why the muslims are in such a bad shape today.


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 02 December 2008 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by Tariq abu

muslims are now following weak opinions knowing they can be downright wrong but they follow these doubtful opinions anyway and that is a reason why the muslims are in such a bad shape today.
 
Are there a few examples to illustrate your point?  Also, what would be the correct or stronger opinion we should follow?


Posted By: Tariq abu
Date Posted: 03 December 2008 at 9:32am
examples of muslim giving riba....their is opinions that say a muslim can give riba unmder nesseicty but how often is there a real nessicity to give riba.....99.9% of the times there is none at all it is very rare..but yet muslims take this opinion and misuse it as a need when they have only a want .....it is a shame that the muslims hearts are so weak the only remedy for this problem is that the muslims grow up get real and stop with this ignorant way they abide by..the strongest opinion is the sunnah and thats that.


Posted By: icforumadmin
Date Posted: 03 December 2008 at 5:52pm
Salam,
 
Tariq Abu, please check your spelling so it will be easier to be read. If you use Internet explorer you download and install this spelling check software:
 
http://www.iespell.com/download.php - http://www.iespell.com/download.php
 
Thanks,
 
Admin


Posted By: Tariq abu
Date Posted: 09 December 2008 at 4:53pm
riba is indeed a problem for the muslims even in muslim countries you can find people that are taking riba...and the muslims wonder why we are having such problems in our lands...the source is riba and wasting..muslims buy to much useless thigs that are waste of money.. elimentate these things and yuo are closer to sloving th e problem....


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 10 December 2008 at 3:24am
You know...I looked at my husband as I was paying on my student loans this week and prayed that Islamic banking would take over the world.

Taking on debt is bad.  Unfortunately, Western society makes life nearly impossible without it...my education will end up costing my 75,000USD.

If the Ummah could build strong economies that do not rely on Riba/Interest and high amounts of debt, they could become a model for the rest of the world.

I see so much potential in the Ummah.  Sadly, when I look at Middle Eastern and African Nations that are predominantly Muslim...... I see the same problems of greed and oppression that I see in other non-Muslim countries.

Islam is about loving and fearing God...  Like the genocides in Darfur... I wonder if there is enough loving and enough fearing....


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 10 December 2008 at 6:56am
Angela must have lived in  Missouri; "The Show Me State".


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 10 December 2008 at 8:56am
Missouri....no no no.... Missouri is bad for Mormons... until 1978 it was legal to kill us on sight there. hahaha

I come from the "Practice what you Preach!" school of thought.   

Hypocrits need not apply.


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 10 December 2008 at 9:01am
Hayfa,

I was scripture studying today and found this.... I though I would share...

He who gives to the poor will never want, but he who shuts his eyes will have many curses. (Proverbs 28:27)


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 10 December 2008 at 11:03am
Originally posted by Angela


I come from the "Practice what you Preach!" school of thought.   

Hypocrits need not apply.
 


Posted By: Tariq abu
Date Posted: 18 December 2008 at 6:43pm
allah knows best but the muslims shoud find good business practices to help stengthen thier ecomomy


Posted By: alidi9090
Date Posted: 18 February 2009 at 7:15am
its simple dictators are taking all the money for themselves and there clan


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 18 February 2009 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by alidi9090

its simple dictators are taking all the money for themselves and there clan
 
You are absolutely correct!!!!


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 19 February 2009 at 8:35pm

The discussion on the economy is moot! You talk about Muslim economies FIRST THING FIRST  they need  to come out of the neocolonial bondage and then  every thing could be fine....the dictators are the western thieves and agents...People should know the western economic system is fractured and it is time for people to know this...
Let us come out of the heedlessness.... the Zionist banksters have enslaved the whole world through the dumb free spending American sheeple as their surrogates.... Now it is time for Americans and all to get  mad but Americans are just too illiterate and brainwashed by the Zionist media and Hollywood to understand ....Watch the following PBS Frontline video and learn the truth who is screwing who .............
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meltdown/view/ - INSIDE THE MELTDOWN 

-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 20 February 2009 at 6:51am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader


The discussion on the economy is moot! You talk about Muslim economies FIRST THING FIRST  they need  to come out of the neocolonial bondage and then  every thing could be fine....the dictators are the western thieves and agents...People should know the western economic system is fractured and it is time for people to know this...
Let us come out of the heedlessness.... the Zionist banksters have enslaved the whole world through the dumb free spending American sheeple as their surrogates.... Now it is time for Americans and all to get  mad but Americans are just too illiterate and brainwashed by the Zionist media and Hollywood to understand ....Watch the following PBS Frontline video and learn the truth who is screwing who .............
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meltdown/view/ - INSIDE THE MELTDOWN 
 
I have watched many videos, the latest concerning Radical Islam's hatred for anything non-Muslim....along with how they indoctrinate their very young children to hate everyone from the West, and/or anyone who is not Muslim...i.e., Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu, etc.  Talk about child abuse!!!!  Clean up your own act and if Islam is really a religion of peace, start behaving in a peaceful manner.  Your hatred consumes you.  Your ignorance is beyond belief.


-------------
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 20 February 2009 at 10:22pm
Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by Sign*Reader


The discussion on the economy is moot! You talk about Muslim economies FIRST THING FIRST  they need  to come out of the neocolonial bondage and then  every thing could be fine....the dictators are the western thieves and agents...People should know the western economic system is fractured and it is time for people to know this...
Let us come out of the heedlessness.... the Zionist banksters have enslaved the whole world through the dumb free spending American sheeple as their surrogates.... Now it is time for Americans and all to get  mad but Americans are just too illiterate and brainwashed by the Zionist media and Hollywood to understand ....Watch the following PBS Frontline video and learn the truth who is screwing who .............
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meltdown/view/ - INSIDE THE MELTDOWN 
 
I have watched many videos,
No you haven't watched this one ....I don't know what crap you have been watching................
the latest concerning Radical Islam's hatred for anything non-Muslim....
What the heck this Radical Islam....when you have evengelists kissing Zionist butts the why complain....
along with how they indoctrinate their very young children to hate everyone from the West, and/or anyone who is not Muslim...i.e., Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu, etc.  Talk about child abuse!!!!  Clean up your own act and if Islam is really a religion of peace,
Non sequitur non sense
 start behaving in a peaceful manner.  Your hatred consumes you.  Your ignorance is beyond belief.
Listen grama if I gave you piece of my mind the way you scream here in your second childhood, the mods might get on my case.... I feel for Whisper's predicament when he has to deal with you....

You didn't watch this video .......This is PBS broadcast about American bankers stealing everybody's savings...
Do you know what MELTDOWN this video talks about?
I think you should be the last people even bringing the subject of religion for discussion ever....In this banking shell game video is so poignant that all your favorite coreligionist are shown as the guilty parties helping each other out in the rip of the helpless American tax payers and the world's workers....the Jews running the shell game and Christians selling the tickets.....
This is an open challenge to you Patty...I DARE you....See it then talk

No one likes the tirades of a senile old lady..... the video is about money that Americans have stolen from the whole world under your favorite ex president Bush...

You said you have watched many videos..... what videos?






-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: PattyaMainer
Date Posted: 21 February 2009 at 6:22am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by PattyaMainer

Originally posted by Sign*Reader


The discussion on the economy is moot! You talk about Muslim economies FIRST THING FIRST  they need  to come out of the neocolonial bondage and then  every thing could be fine....the dictators are the western thieves and agents...People should know the western economic system is fractured and it is time for people to know this...
Let us come out of the heedlessness.... the Zionist banksters have enslaved the whole world through the dumb free spending American sheeple as their surrogates.... Now it is time for Americans and all to get  mad but Americans are just too illiterate and brainwashed by the Zionist media and Hollywood to understand ....Watch the following PBS Frontline video and learn the truth who is screwing who .............
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meltdown/view/ - INSIDE THE MELTDOWN 
 
I have watched many videos,
No you haven't watched this one ....I don't know what crap you have been watching................
the latest concerning Radical Islam's hatred for anything non-Muslim....
What the heck this Radical Islam....when you have evengelists kissing Zionist butts the why complain....
along with how they indoctrinate their very young children to hate everyone from the West, and/or anyone who is not Muslim...i.e., Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindu, etc.  Talk about child abuse!!!!  Clean up your own act and if Islam is really a religion of peace,
Non sequitur non sense
 start behaving in a peaceful manner.  Your hatred consumes you.  Your ignorance is beyond belief.
Listen grama if I gave you piece of my mind the way you scream here in your second childhood, the mods might get on my case.... I feel for Whisper's predicament when he has to deal with you....

You didn't watch this video .......This is PBS broadcast about American bankers stealing everybody's savings...
Do you know what MELTDOWN this video talks about?
I think you should be the last people even bringing the subject of religion for discussion ever....In this banking shell game video is so poignant that all your favorite coreligionist are shown as the guilty parties helping each other out in the rip of the helpless American tax payers and the world's workers....the Jews running the shell game and Christians selling the tickets.....
This is an open challenge to you Patty...I DARE you....See it then talk

No one likes the tirades of a senile old lady..... the video is about money that Americans have stolen from the whole world under your favorite ex president Bush...

You said you have watched many videos..... what videos?




 
I am talking about the terrorists, oh ignorant one.  I think you understand who they are, do you not???  Talk about senile!  I may be a grandmother, and I am proud of that, but I am not old, and I am certainly not senile.  Nor am I rude, as you certainly are.  What gives you the right to speak so rudely against my religion and then turn around and tell me who my favorite ex-president is?  (And it most certainly is NOT President Bush). You have no right.  I have read more books (on both sides, including the Koran), than you can shake a stick at.  I have known many Muslims.....thank Allah they are NOT like you.  You do Islam no favors, that's for sure.  So go ahead and blame the West for all your problems.  Don't ever let the thought of WORKING toward improving your situation in the working cross your mind. 
 
I know perfectly well, much more so than you, what the state of America's economy is.  I know how it got to this point, and acknowledge it is a very distressing situation for the world.  But don't blame me.  I didn't do it.  God will handle it in HIS way and in HIS time.  Yes, Sign*Reader, I readily admit the financial situation is not good.  There are many, many to blame, including the dumb American people who did buy homes they knew they could never afford, AND the banks which lent them the money!!!  Unlike you, I know America has its faults and I admit them.  We will work to correct them and bring the economy back where it should be.  What about you?  Why don't you ever admit to any faults of your own?  Oh, you're too busy rudely attacking a Christian grandmother to ever consider improving your own failures.  You talk very disrespectfully, like a little boy throwing a temper tantrum.  You make a lot of noise, like leaves blowing in the wind, but you really know and understand very little.  You are a disgrace before Almighty God.  Read some "UNBIASED" books and educate yourself..then come back and talk like an intelligent man....one who can carry on a decent dialogue with others.  At this point in your life you are woefully inept to do so.
 
 


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"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."


Posted By: tawhidbd218
Date Posted: 10 March 2009 at 1:07am
I don't think the economy of the Arab Gulf Countries in general and United Arab Emirates in particular are weak.

Why do you think otherwise?


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 11 March 2009 at 1:52am
I think it is a combination of both would you not SignReader.. having just come back from Pakistan..  it is a classic case of people not seeing what is in front of them to solve the problem. And actually, i could argue it is cultural, people there are terrible planners and thinkers.. both short-term and long-term. I am talking about the educated sector.

I agree it is a form on enslavement.. but how do you change that? The masses do not have the education to do so and the educated are just as much puppets as anyone else..

i think it is true of average people all over the world.. we are all enslaved by a system.

It really bothered me to be there.. and people could not see the forest through the trees.. and begin to change on a grass roots level.. alot of talk and bellyaching not no grass roots level change. And it can change...


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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi



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