Print Page | Close Window

What is Shirk?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Islam for non-Muslims
Forum Discription: Non-Muslims can ask questions about Islam, discussion for the purpose of learning.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12312
Printed Date: 31 October 2014 at 8:21pm


Topic: What is Shirk?
Posted By: Ron Webb
Subject: What is Shirk?
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 6:37pm

The one unforgivable sin in Islam is something that the Quran describes as "setting up partners with Allah":
"Verily, Allaah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allaah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin." [an-Nisaa’ 4:48]

This sin is given the name shirk, which I believe comes from an Arabic root meaning "to share".

But what, exactly, is shirk?  I have heard it applied to everything from idolatry to polytheism to atheism to paganism (whatever that is) to greed (worshipping wealth) and a whole lot more.  It seems like shirk is treated as a catch-all for just about any wrong belief.  It also seems to me that that can't be right.  Surely Allah must have had something very specific in mind for so grievous a sin that it could never be forgiven.

I'd like to hear what Muslims think the phrase "setting up partners with Allah" means.  I have my own idea, which you may have already read on another discussion, but I'll try to keep my own (non-Muslim) thoughts out of this at least to begin with.




Replies:
Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 7:15pm

When we say La ilalaha illal la - There is no God but Allah, then all our worships {Ibadahs} shud be for Him alone. When we do believe in that there is only one God, then why is there any need to ascirbe partners to Him ? When He is our Creator, why shud we associate any other false ones.

 Anyways, shirk is to associate partners with Allah swt. It may be any form. Even if we hold any object higher than Allah swt, it is a shirk. Invoking any other besides Allah, to love anyone more than Allah, to trust any others rather than on Allah swt --- these are all shirks. Just to worship Allah alone, seek Only his help , trust Only Him are the requirements of tawheed. Definitely, if everyone tries to follow one’s own desires, there will be nothing but chaos and corruption, for each one’s desires will conflict with the desires of others. And when there will be conflict, there cannot be peace and tranquility in the world. This was the reason that Allah describes Shirk as the biggest crimes.’Verily Shirk is the biggest crime.’ (31:13) Shirk does not mean merely worshipping idols. God cannot be so narrow that He would feel offended by merely prostrating before inanimate objects like pieces of stone and bronze. God is much more above these petty considerations. In fact, He is against the mean mentality that works behind worshipping these inanimate objects.

 
Can u just share with us your idea again. I did not read it.


-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath

Can u just share with us your idea again. I did not read it.
Thank you for your reply.  I have sent you a private message with the link to my message in another discussion that touched on this subject.  However, for right now I would like to keep my own thoughts out of this discussion.  I am more interested to hear what Muslims think.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 12:50pm
Hi, I think, Seekshidayath's description of what shirk is speaks for most of us.
In short, shirk is to deny God's Oness by serving and worshipping others as god(s) or lords.
Hasan 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath

Anyways, shirk is to associate partners with Allah swt. It may be any form. Even if we hold any object higher than Allah swt, it is a shirk. Invoking any other besides Allah, to love anyone more than Allah, to trust any others rather than on Allah swt --- these are all shirks.
 
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with "associating partners".  Just because I love money more than Allah does not mean I think of money as a partner to Allah.  On the contrary, if I choose money over Allah, then money is a competitor, not a partner, isn't it?  It is wrong, of course, but I don't see why it is shirk.
 
Originally posted by honeto

Hi, I think, Seekshidayath's description of what shirk is speaks for most of us.
In short, shirk is to deny God's Oness by serving and worshipping others as god(s) or lords.
Hasan 
 
So if I am a Hindu, am I committing shirk by worshipping the Hindu pantheon of gods?  But Hindus don't even believe in Allah.  How can they be said to be associating partners with a being they don't even think exists?


Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 25 April 2008 at 11:10am
Greed by itself has never been considered shirk in Islam. But, if love of money increases to such an extent that the person becomes extremely careless about all the orders of Allah SW, then he/she actually is keeping his desire in the place of Allah. Thus constituting shirk.
 
Read this hadith.
Abu Hurayra (Radhiallaahu Anhu) narrates that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, ‘May the slave of Dinar (gold coin) and the slave of Dirham (silver coin) be cursed.
The Arabic word used here for slave is Abd, which also means worshipper.
However, keep in mind that shirk can also be used in general term.
There is something called Major shirk and minor shirk.
 
It is only Major shirk that throws a person out of fold of Islam.
If a person perform prayer to show off, this is minor shirk because he is praying for people instead of Allah.
 
But, if a person pray to anybody beside Allah SW, he is making major shirk that throws him out of fold of Islam.
 
As per hindu, what made you to think that they Don't believe in Allah? Agreed that they worship many dieties but they do believe in a Lord who is creator of Heaven and earth. He is called Eshwar or parmatama in hinduism.
However if a person does not believe in a Lord who is creator of heaven and earth, he/she will find something, an object or an ideology around which his/her life shall revolve. thus making it his/her god.
45:23 Then seest thou such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire?
Read this..
http://www.jaafaridris.com/English/Articles/atheists.htm - http://www.jaafaridris.com/English/Articles/atheists.htm


Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 25 April 2008 at 11:35am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

 
I'm not sure what any of this has to do with "associating partners".  Just because I love money more than Allah does not mean I think of money as a partner to Allah.  On the contrary, if I choose money over Allah, then money is a competitor, not a partner, isn't it?  It is wrong, of course, but I don't see why it is shirk.
Well, our belief about Allah is that, He is Lord and Master of heaven and earth. He has knowledge and power of each and verything that exists.
Second aspect of believing Allah is that, He alone deseve our worship, which also includes supplication, prayer, extent of love and attachment which constitutes worship, fasting etc
Have a look at dictionary meaning of Ilah (god)
Dictionary Meanings
The root of this word consists of the three letters, alif, lam, and ha and the connotations of various derivations, as one finds in lexicons are as follows:
bullet Became confused or perplexed.
bullet Achieved peace and mental calm by seeking refuge with someone or establishing relations with him.
bullet Became frightened of some impending mishap or disaster, and someone gave him the necessary shelter.
bullet Turned to another eagerly, due to the intensity of his feelings for him.
bullet The lost offspring of the she-camel rushed to snuggle up to its mother on finding it. Became hidden, or concealed. Also, got elevated.
bullet Adored, offered worship to.
 
If we reflect upon these original meanings, we can gain the necessary idea of how the verb came to mean the act of worship and the noun to denote the object of worship. There are four considerations to bear in mind in this connection:
  1. Foremost among the factors which engender a sentiment of some degree of adoration for some one is a person's own state of being in distress or need. He cannot even conceive of worshiping someone unless he has reason to believe that someone to be in a position to remove his distress, to fulfil his needs, to give him shelter and protect him in time of danger, and soothe his troubled heart.
  2. It goes without saying that the above belief is accompanied by a belief also in the superiority of the other in status, power, and strength.
  3. It is also a matter of fact that where any of the needs of a human being are met under the ordinary process of give and take, which takes place perceptibly before one's own eyes, it leads to no sense of reverence, much less of adoration, for the other. For example, if I should be in need of money and, having applied for, and been given a job, am paid for it, since the whole transaction would take place within the full ken of my senses, and I would be fully aware of the circumstances or the reason for giving me the money, I would experience not the slightest desire to offer my employer any adoration. That sentiment arises only when there is some element of mystery surrounding the personality, the power, or the ability of the other to fulfil peoples' needs or to influence events. That is why the word chosen to denote an object of worship includes in its meanings the senses of mystery, perplexity, and superiority in status, etc.
  4. Lastly, it is only natural that if one believes another to be in a position to fulfill one's needs, to provide shelter and protection, to soothe a disturbed heart and fill it with peace and calm, one turns eagerly to that person as a matter of course.
 
The above passage for the dictionary meaning of Ilah (godship) is taken from
here
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/shariah/ilah.htm - http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/shariah/ilah.htm
 
 
Now, my point is that it is not possible for a person to believe that somebody else other than Allah is god(ilah) in all respect. People can take other gods only partially not in full. That is the reason "associating partner"  is used instead of "associating competitior".
 
Now, look at the word what bible says, just for comparision.
You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 25 April 2008 at 8:40pm

Originally posted by abuzaid

As per hindu, what made you to think that they Don't believe in Allah? Agreed that they worship many dieties but they do believe in a Lord who is creator of Heaven and earth. He is called Eshwar or parmatama in hinduism.

I think you mean Brahma, and beyond being the Creator he bears little or no resemblance to Allah.  Frankly, I think it's absurd to equate the two.  Brahma is only the creative aspect of the Hindu trinity, along with Vishnu (the Preserver) and Shiva (the Destroyer).  You might be closer to compare Allah with Brahman, which encompasses all three aspects and represents the whole Universe; or Atman, the spirit form of Brahman which exists within all of us.

But I think if you suggested to a Hindu that any of these is Allah, they would just laugh.  The god described in the Quran is nothing like any of them.

Now, my point is that it is not possible for a person to believe that somebody else other than Allah is god(ilah) in all respect.

If that is your point, then I don't think we can discuss it further.  I'm sure you would be offended if a Hindu were to tell you that it is not possible for you to believe what you believe.



Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 12:10am

There is no fixed belief in hinduism, almost everyone among hindus have his own idea of religion and God. For a person to be hindu it is not necessary to believe in trimurthy (Brahma, Vishnu and mahesh or shiva). Whoever claim to be hindus and does not associate himself with any other religion is hindu.

In my personal experience after speaking to many hindus, though their belief is not clear they believe in one God who is master and creator of heaven and earth. Sometime they call Him Eshwar, prameshwar or pramatama. They never claim that Brahma, Vishnu or mahesh are Pramatama. So, they do believe in one greatest God along with many dieties.
 
I am from India and many of my work associates are hindus.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 6:11pm
Hi,
I agree with abuzaid's understanding here. Once I heard a Hindu say that Hiduism in not bound to time. What he meant was that with time a Hindu's ideology evolves and so does its believes and teachings.
What I will add here is the broader Islamic concept that Adam (pbuh) was first man and first prophet who was taught the same belief about God as we have today in Islam. Thus all humanity once recieved true guidance, it was only after that people choose to leave it for something other than that. And as the Hindu's idea that their belief evolves with time does offer a proof of that.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by abuzaid

In my personal experience after speaking to many hindus, though their belief is not clear they believe in one God who is master and creator of heaven and earth. Sometime they call Him Eshwar, prameshwar or pramatama. They never claim that Brahma, Vishnu or mahesh are Pramatama. So, they do believe in one greatest God along with many dieties.
 
I am from India and many of my work associates are hindus.
 
Maybe you should give one of your work associates a copy of the Quran, and ask them if it describes any of their gods.  When they say no, tell them that that is impossible, that they must believe in Allah even if they don't know it.  Then stand well back. Wink


Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 11:23pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

and ask them if it describes any of their gods
 
You have come out from the misconception that they only believe in "gods" and not God. Instead of asking me to do this exercise don't you think you too have to gain some more knowledge about hindusim. The most ancient and authentic books of hindusm (vedas) talk only about one and only God.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 4:12pm
Okay, this is getting me nowhere.  I started this discussion to get some feedback on what Muslims thought about Shirk, but I've allowed myself to be drawn into a debate about Hinduism. Confused
 
Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that all Hindus believe in Allah, whether they know it or not.  In that case, I have a few other questions:
 
1. Do all polytheists believe in Allah?
2. Are all Hindus, and/or all polytheists, guilty of Shirk?
3. If so, does that mean there is no hope of forgiveness for them, even if they convert to Islam?


Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

1. Do all polytheists believe in Allah?
Human being by nature is created to believe in Allah, even if a person denies belief in Allah he is in the state of denial.
This is what we understand from the verse.
7:172 When thy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants, and made them testify concerning themselves, (saying): "Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?"- They said: "Yea! We do testify!" (This), lest ye should say on the Day of Judgment: "Of this we were never mindful":
 
This is testification indicates inherent belief in Allah, irrespective of claim of that person. Even when an atheist claim that he does not believe in God, he does.
Originally posted by Ron Webb

2. Are all Hindus, and/or all polytheists, guilty of Shirk?
Whoever worship anybody beside Lord of Heaven and earth, whoever claim to have more than one Lord of heaven and earth. Whoever, claim that anybody other than God shares the power and attributes of God are mushrik.
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

3. If so, does that mean there is no hope of forgiveness for them, even if they convert to Islam?
If a person dies in the state of shirk, there is no hope of forgiveness. What is counted is the state of person at the time of death. Many of companions of Prophet Mohammed PBUH were comitting shirk before Islam and after Islam all the sins were cleared.
The verse that talks about shirk being unforgivable is in case of not repenting. God may forgive others sins if a person dies without repenting also.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 6:20pm

Originally posted by abuzaid

This is testification indicates inherent belief in Allah, irrespective of claim of that person. Even when an atheist claim that he does not believe in God, he does.

Are you saying that all atheists are liars?  Or that they believe in God, but they just don't believe that they believe? Confused

The verse that talks about shirk being unforgivable is in case of not repenting. God may forgive others sins if a person dies without repenting also.

The verse doesn't say anything about repenting, and I would have thought that repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness anyway.  Is there some other verse in the Quran that suggests to you that shirk can be forgiven if the sinner repents?



Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Are you saying that all atheists are liars?  Or that they believe in God, but they just don't believe that they believe?  Confused
Actually this is something to do with deep human psychology. Once they honestly realise that their faith does not give all the answers, rather create more confusion they have to take a stand. Unlike other chrsitians they honestly take a clear stand that christianity has some major problems. Yet, out of their arrogance they does not want to look into other religion for the answers of said questions. Sometime, they are programmed to think in some specific terms and direction which force them to dislike terms and methodology of other religion. Sometime they are programmed only to hate other religions. Because of all these problems, neither they get satisfied with thier religion nor they look for answers in other religion. So, they turn out to be atheist just because of their own wish. At time it is possible that a claimed atheist may not understand his own thinking process. What I have mentioned above may not be a conscious decision, but may be it is something in their non-conscious.
 
Another reason is that many does not like religious rulings because it restricts their desires. So, the moment they realise that something is going to restrict their desire they avoid it and does not take it seriously.
So, I agree that atheist are liars, or they believe in God, but they just don't believe that they believe?
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

The verse doesn't say anything about repenting, and I would have thought that repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness anyway.  Is there some other verse in the Quran that suggests to you that shirk can be forgiven if the sinner repents?
Before I quote anything from Quran, you should know little bit about Islamic history. Prophet Mohammed PBUH, started preaching religion of God when almost whole of Arabian penninsula was sunk in shirk. If shirk can't be forgiven, then the whole preaching of Islam is in vain. Why did Prophet Mohammed give Da'wah to mushriks? We do not require any verse for specifically to mention that shirk can be forgiven in case of repentance. This is the very basic meaning of Islamic da'wah. We believe that when christians worship Jesus, they make shirk of highest degree becase they believe that Jesus is God almightly! They associate a partner to God in the "SELF" of God where as others associates parrners, in worship or attributes.
 
Repentance is pre-requisite to forgiveness?
for minor sins repnetance is not a pre-requisite and for major sins repentance in a pre-requisite. This is general rules scholars have derived. This is not something God have specifically promised us.
God have authority, He reserves full right to catch us for minor sins and He is merciful enough to forgive our major sins even without repentance. There is no such mathematical rule for forgiveness, it is between a slave and His Lord.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by abuzaid

So, I agree that atheist are liars, or they believe in God, but they just don't believe that they believe?
I was being sarcastic, but apparently you aren't.  If you truly believe that all atheists (and that would probably include me) are liars, then maybe I should just call it quits before I say something I'll regret. Angry And if you are pretending you know what I believe better than I do, that's not much better.
 
If shirk can't be forgiven, then the whole preaching of Islam is in vain.
No, those who are born into Islamic families are safe, but most of the population of the world (never mind the Arabian peninsula) are doomed.  If that makes you uncomfortable, well, frankly it should; but you can't just make up an escape clause about repentance to get around it.  If it isn't in the Quran, you can't add it yourself to satisfy your own sense of horror at the implications.
 
Personally, my own escape clause is that I don't think that anyone can be said to "set up partners with Allah" if they don't believe in Allah to begin with.  And I think it's nonsense (not to mention arrogance) to argue that everyone believes in Allah, even if they don't believe that they believe.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 11:26pm
Brother Abu Zaid said :
At time it is possible that a claimed atheist may not understand his own thinking process. What I have mentioned above may not be a conscious decision, but may be it is something in their non-conscious.

Very true brother. It is proven right here.

Ronn Webb said :
The verse doesn't say anything about repenting, and I would have thought that repentance is a prerequisite to forgiveness anyway.  Is there some other verse in the Quran that suggests to you that shirk can be forgiven if the sinner repents?

Read these verses

53. Say: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, verily, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
54. "And turn in repentance (and in obedience with true faith) to your Lord and submit to Him before the torment comes upon you, (and) then you will not be helped.
55. "And follow the best of that which is sent down to you from your Lord, before the torment comes on you suddenly while you perceive not!
.
This Ayah is a call to all sinners, be they disbelievers or others, to repent and turn to Allah. This Ayah tells us that Allah, may He be blessed and exalted, will forgive all the sins of those who repent to Him and turn back to Him, no matter what or how many his sins are, even if they are like the foam of the sea. This cannot be interpreted as meaning that sins will be forgiven without repentance, because Shirk can only be forgiven for the one who repents from it.

Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said that some of the people of Shirk killed many people and committed Zina (illegal sexual acts) to a great extent; they came to Muhammad and said, "What you are saying and calling us to is good; if only you could tell us that there is an expiation for what we have done.''

Then the following verses were revealed
And those who invoke not any other god along with Allah, nor kill such person as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse

Say: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the mercy of Allah

Except those who repent and believe, and do righteous deeds  (25:70)

Prophet {Pbuh} said, ""O My servants who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, verily, Allah forgives all sins He does not reckon him Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.'' .This  indicates that what is meant is that Allah forgives all sins provided that a person repents. Additionally, one must not despair of the mercy of Allah even if his sins are many and great, for the door of repentance and mercy is expansive.

Rest part, Bro. Abu Zaid shall answer you in his best way

 


-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 9:11am
Ron, I don't see a point in contunuing with this discussion. You started it with your understanding of Islamic beliefs which we believe is not true. It is of no use to prove you or I wrong. Things are getting personal here instead of discussing the actual issue. I am trying to prove that you are in the state of denial because of your desires and you are trying to prove that I am wrong.
I would like just to clear some point you raised in you previous point.
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

If you truly believe that all atheists (and that would probably include me) are liars,
Some are liars and some are suffering from denial. Kindly read my posts properly.
This is what I said
"At time it is possible that a claimed atheist may not understand his own thinking process. What I have mentioned above may not be a conscious decision, but may be it is something in their non-conscious.
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

No, those who are born into Islamic families are safe, but most of the population of the world (never mind the Arabian peninsula) are doomed.  If that makes you uncomfortable, well, frankly it should; but you can't just make up an escape clause about repentance to get around it.  If it isn't in the Quran, you can't add it yourself to satisfy your own sense of horror at the implications.
Seekshidayah, have made it clear in the previous post.
 
Read the verse of Quran in sequence.
25:68 Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment.
25:69 (But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy,-
25:70 Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful,
 
Can you see that, these verses are clear that act of shirk, muder and fornication can be forgiven in case of repentance.
 
Further, what I said is something you choose to ignore. I said, whole Da'wah of Islam is in vain if shirk can't be forgiven by repentance! If that is the case why did Prophet Mohammed PBUH give da'wah to mushriks of Makkah?
 
Finally, do you think this a good way to make argument with muslims? You mean, you assume a meaning of verse of Quran and believe that in the last 1400 years none of the muslims understood the proper meaning of that verse in Quran and start arguing with us with your understanding of Quran. 
 
Don't you think it is better for you to ask about Islam rather than teaching us our own religion??
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Personally, my own escape clause is that I don't think that anyone can be said to "set up partners with Allah" if they don't believe in Allah to begin with.  And I think it's nonsense (not to mention arrogance) to argue that everyone believes in Allah, even if they don't believe that they believe.
Well, Allah has given you choice to believe so. I too reserve my right to reject your understanding. I believe that human by nature is believer of Allah. Let us go with it. I have made my point clear and you too have made you point clear. Readers of this forum are intelligent enough to make their choice.
 
I am not going to continue with this thread until I feel that some misconception has to be cleared.
 


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 5:35pm

Originally posted by abuzaid

Don't you think it is better for you to ask about Islam rather than teaching us our own religion??

That is quite an ironic remark from someone who has spent much of the previous discussion trying to convince me that he knows what Hindus, atheists and others believe better than they do themselves.

Let's look at the passage you quoted (25:68-70) in even larger context:

25:63  And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!";
25:64  Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate and standing;
25:65  Those who say, "Our Lord! avert from us the Wrath of Hell, for its Wrath is indeed an affliction grievous,-
25:66  "Evil indeed is it as an abode, and as a place to rest in";
25:67  Those who, when they spend, are not extravagant and not niggardly, but hold a just (balance) between those (extremes);
25:68  Those who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred except for just cause, nor commit fornication; - and any that does this (not only) meets punishment.
25:69  (But) the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to him, and he will dwell therein in ignominy,-
25:70  Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful,
25:71  And whoever repents and does good has truly turned to Allah with an (acceptable) conversion;-
25:72  Those who witness no falsehood, and, if they pass by futility, they pass by it with honourable (avoidance);
25:73  Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind;
25:74  And those who pray, "Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous."
25:75  Those are the ones who will be rewarded with the highest place in heaven, because of their patient constancy: therein shall they be met with salutations and peace,
25:76  Dwelling therein;- how beautiful an abode and place of rest!

The passage gives a long list of virtues to strive for and sins to avoid.  Inserted in the midst of that list is a parenthetical warning (which I have coloured blue for clarity) that for one sin in particular ("any that does this", 25:68), the penalty is doubled, unless the sinner repents.  That one sin is the last one mentioned: fornication.  If 25:70-71 was intended to refer to the last several sins (i.e., to include shirk, which is three sins back in the list), 25:68 would have to say "any that does these".

Granted, the passage might be slightly different in the original Arabic, but the most you could hope to show is that 25:70 directly contradicts 4:48, which unequivocally states that shirk cannot be forgiven, period.  This contradiction would call into question the infallibility of the Quran.  You don't want to go there, do you?


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath

Read these verses

53. Say: "O My servants who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, verily, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
54. "And turn in repentance (and in obedience with true faith) to your Lord and submit to Him before the torment comes upon you, (and) then you will not be helped.
55. "And follow the best of that which is sent down to you from your Lord, before the torment comes on you suddenly while you perceive not!
.
This Ayah is a call to all sinners, be they disbelievers or others, to repent and turn to Allah.

Yes it does, but you'll notice that it refers only to those "who have transgressed against themselves" (and I suppose fornication would be an ideal example of that).  Shirk is surely on a higher level, a transgression against Allah Himself.
 
Again, as I said to abuzaid, maybe it is slightly different in the original Arabic, but if you think it means that even shirk can be forgiven, then you have to explain why 4:48 specifically says that it cannot, and how it is that the words of Allah can contradict one another.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 4:36am

Ronn webb said :

Yes it does, but you'll notice that it refers only to those "who have transgressed against themselves" (and I suppose fornication would be an ideal example of that).  Shirk is surely on a higher level, a transgression against Allah Himself.

It does n't matter, what you or me suppose. For we believers, it matters that what  Quran and sunnah teaches us.


Look Ronn, to understand Quran we need to study its commentary, which tells us as when was that verse revealed and is supported by hadith and thus explains, which helps us gain a better understanding of that verse. You have ommited the hadith which was discussed there. Read its first part again here.

Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said that some of the people of Shirk killed many people and committed Zina (illegal sexual acts) to a great extent; they came to Muhammad and said, "What you are saying and calling us to is good; if only you could tell us that there is an expiation for what we have done.'' ------.

NOTE THOSE IN BOLD AND COLORED FOR YOU. Those people commited all the major sins. Apart from fornification, shirk and murder are also major sins.One who commits sins trangress against his ownself. He drags himself towards hell. 

Ronn Webb said :
 but if you think it means that even shirk can be forgiven, then you have to explain why 4:48 specifically says that it cannot, and how it is that the words of Allah can contradict one another.

Its not that i think. Its the Quran and hadith that explain us and we obey it. They are n't contradicting. Just read below explanation.

4 :48. Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin

As said we need to go thru its commentary. I don't think that you shall be accepting it since you are n't willing so. TO benefit other readers ,{especially as its  posted at non-muslim section} , so that they  shall not get into any misconception, here it is. Am merely repeating the gyst of brother AbuZaid's post..

Here is the commentary of Ibn Kathir for the verse 4 :48

Verily, Allah  forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship),) meaning, He does not forgive a servant if he meets Him while he is associating partners with Him, (but He forgives except that) of sins, (to whom He wills) of His servants.

Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Dharr said that the Messenger of Allah said, Allah said, "O My servant! As long as you worship and beg Me, I will forgive you, no matter your shortcomings. O My servant! If you meet Me with the earth's fill of sin, yet you do not associate any partners with Me, I will meet you with its fill of forgiveness.''

This hadith explains us that while in the state that we meet Allah swt,  if we do repent and not associate any partners , we shall be forgiven.

I don't understand, when Allah swt is the Forgiver and is ready to forgive any of our sins when repented, then what's your problem. Why are you creating fuss about it. Its so simple here that even major sins like shirk are also forgiven. And why does it matter when Allah swt specifically says or general. Few minds need specific reminders and few understand them in general.  Its the style of Quran!!!



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath

This hadith explains us that while in the state that we meet Allah swt,  if we do repent and not associate any partners , we shall be forgiven.
 
Therefore this hadith directly contradicts the Quran (4:48) and cannot be accurate and authentic.
 
I don't understand, when Allah swt is the Forgiver and is ready to forgive any of our sins when repented, then what's your problem. Why are you creating fuss about it.
 
I'm not creating a fuss.  I started this discussion to find out what Muslims think shirk means.  Unfortunately, I've only got two or three opinions; and those opinions either contradict Allah's own words in the Quran, or they make the frankly ridiculous assumption that I actually believe in Allah, even though I don't know it.
 
So I don't really know where to go from here.  Ermm


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:10am

You need not go anywhere Ronn Smile

Read the same verse.

Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.

Now, carefully read again  - partners shud be  SET  up with Him. And the other part  - whoever SETS UP partners with Allah swt.


They  are in "present tense".  It would have been better if you and me understand Arabic, which is a beautiful language. In Arabic "tenses" matters  a lot.   I would catch up a member who can understand Arabic. Till then ----
 
But yes, final word, while meeting Allah swt, if he is in the state that he did not repent and associated partners with Allah i.e , in the state of shirk then he shall be punished. Hope, atleast NOW, you understand it. May Allah swt, give all of us its understanding. Smile


-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."



Print Page | Close Window