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Is the Injeel corrupted?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12306
Printed Date: 24 October 2014 at 9:25am


Topic: Is the Injeel corrupted?
Posted By: dzkouns
Subject: Is the Injeel corrupted?
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 10:31am
Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim (I believe this as a Christian, for sure
 
I am studying Islam in school and have had a hard time figuring out some of the beliefs that Muslims have about the Injeel.

1. Was the Injeel corrupted when Mohammed lived?

2. Who corrupted it and how/why?

3.Has anyone read it? (The Qur'an commands that one read the Injeel, the Tawrat, and the Zabur!)  If so, how did it match with the Qur'an?

Not trying to convert anybody here, but I haven't understood how these answers play out in Muslim thinking.  Thanks.



Replies:
Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:59pm
Hello and welcome,
a Muslim's believe about Injeel or Gospel is very clear, it is our individual level  of knowledge, understanding, and explaining that may describe it differently.
My understanding of Injeel, according to the teachings of Quran, is very clear. Injeel or Gospel was the word of God given to prophet Jesus (Pbuh) to bring people back to the worship of their Creator. It came at a time when previously sent word of God was not practiced and was also altered.
Through Quran we learn that Gospel or Injeel was altered and God's word was changed.
Thus there was a need for pure word of God again, and God chose a prophet and revealed His word, the Quran onto him.
 
So, to answer your specific questions:
1- yes, because if it was pure then, there would not have been any need for a new message.
 
2- Church, I would guess since it was not accessable to the common believer. Those who were incharge of its keeping I guess were responsible for such act. The fact is that it went through many revisions, compilations, additions and substractions throughout its history.
3- I am not aware of Quran commanding us to read those books. However, as a believer in submission to One God, as a Muslim we do believe that Torah and Gospel were word fo God sent to the prophets before. Anyone who does not believe that is not a Muslim.
I had a chance to read "the Bible" as we now know it.  For me it confirmed the Quran's claim.
I do not know what you mean by "how did it match with the Quran".
If I understand your question as if they both are same? no, I find Quran to stand firm on its teachings, as it is pure word of God. For example if it teaches Oneness of God, there is nothing in it to contradict it. If it talks about how the salvation be achieved, there is no contradiction in it. About status of Jesus (pbuh) it is clear. It says, he was born of virgin Mary of a miracle, for God that is easy.
He was a man, a true prophet. There is nothing in Quran that contradict that.
These are some of the very important points, on which, in my experience Chrisitians and the Bible contradict.
I hope I answered your questions, should you have any more, or want further clearification, do not hesitate to write.
 
Hasan
 
 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: dzkouns
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 4:22pm

I greatly appreciate your well considered response.  I have a few more questions concerning this topic.

1.  Would you consider the original form of the New Testament as Injeel or just 1-4 of the Gospels? Or is it that the message God gave Jesus was never in the first compiled New Testament?

2.  You stated that the Church corrupted the Injeel since it wasn't available to the common believer, but what about the earliest manuscripts that were found that match the manuscripts we've had for centuries?  For example, the Qumran scrolls validated that our Old Testament scrolls were accurate.  We are always finding new scrolls that validate the New Testament.  In fact, we have over 10,000 manuscripts for the New Testament alone and all of them match (except for maybe a missing accent here or a mispelled word there). 

3. Has the Church been corrupting ALL of these manuscripts even as early as 20 years after Christ's ascension?  I don't mean to be argumentative or offensive, but history hasn't even granted the Qur'an that kind of evidence.
 
4

Originally posted by honeto

About status of Jesus (pbuh) it is clear. It says, he was born of virgin Mary of a miracle, for God that is easy.


We also believe that He was born of a virgin, but we believe that He wa the God incarnate, the Son of God.  I know this is a stumbling block for Muslims, but we don't actually believe that God had Mary as a wife.  We believe that God took the form of Jesus.  If it so easy to accept the idea that Jesus was born of a virgin, why would it be any harder to believe that God could take the form of man and reside with man?  If God is so merciful, wouldn't it be the ultimate act of mercy to humble Himself to save us from Hell?

Once again, not trying to convert anyone, but these are questions that I have had concerning Islam.  Thanks.



Posted By: dzkouns
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 4:33pm
Also, we agree that God knows all, so why would He even bother giving Isa if He knew that it was going to be corrupted?  If God is as powerful as we both believe He is, how can His Word be corrupted?  Wouldn't it be as blasphemous to Muslims if I were to say that the Quran was corrupted?  If it is all the Word of God, how can any of it be corrupted?


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 8:12pm
honeto said - Through Quran we learn that Gospel or Injeel was altered and God's word was changed.
Thus there was a need for pure word of God again, and God chose a prophet and revealed His word, the Quran onto him.
 
Which verse?


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: relaxjack
Date Posted: 23 April 2008 at 11:44pm
The Quran does not say that the Injeel or the Taurat was corrupted. The Quran does not also say that what the Jews and Christians have are the Taurat or Injeel.
 
What the Quran says is that some people took the message of the old scriptures, add their own words and stories to it, and claim that the new book is from God.
 
Notwithstanding that, Muslims believe the bible contain the core message of the taurat and injeel (believe in One God) and the bible contain stories that are inaccurate.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by dzkouns

I greatly appreciate your well considered response.  I have a few more questions concerning this topic.

1.  Would you consider the original form of the New Testament as Injeel or just 1-4 of the Gospels? Or is it that the message God gave Jesus was never in the first compiled New Testament?

2.  You stated that the Church corrupted the Injeel since it wasn't available to the common believer, but what about the earliest manuscripts that were found that match the manuscripts we've had for centuries?  For example, the Qumran scrolls validated that our Old Testament scrolls were accurate.  We are always finding new scrolls that validate the New Testament.  In fact, we have over 10,000 manuscripts for the New Testament alone and all of them match (except for maybe a missing accent here or a mispelled word there). 

3. Has the Church been corrupting ALL of these manuscripts even as early as 20 years after Christ's ascension?  I don't mean to be argumentative or offensive, but history hasn't even granted the Qur'an that kind of evidence.
 
4

Originally posted by honeto

About status of Jesus (pbuh) it is clear. It says, he was born of virgin Mary of a miracle, for God that is easy.


We also believe that He was born of a virgin, but we believe that He wa the God incarnate, the Son of God.  I know this is a stumbling block for Muslims, but we don't actually believe that God had Mary as a wife.  We believe that God took the form of Jesus.  If it so easy to accept the idea that Jesus was born of a virgin, why would it be any harder to believe that God could take the form of man and reside with man?  If God is so merciful, wouldn't it be the ultimate act of mercy to humble Himself to save us from Hell?

Once again, not trying to convert anyone, but these are questions that I have had concerning Islam.  Thanks.

 
Hi,
1- what I have said is that Injeel was Injeel in its original form, until God's word was not altered. after it went through transformation, it is accoding to so and so. The Bible went through many revisions throughout its history. I beleive that Word of God need no revision. In my understanding four versions of the Gospel of Jesus made to the current compilation, according to John, Matthew, Paul and Luke. There were other Gospels that were left out because they differed too much and did not agree with the doctrine preached by the Church. Some noticable variations are enough poof for me to believe that they do not speak the truth otherwise they would not differ on account. And that's a fact that tells us that somthing went wrong along the way.
 
2- In fact if they were that accurate and complete, they would be on the library shelves and book stores and churches. Why are they kept away. If they existed complete and unaltered they rightfully be called the true Gospel.
 
3- Look the poof is in the pudding, you don't need to take my word for it. Read the history and revisions of the Bible. No holy book went through so many organised revisions as the Bible.
And I, who is not a scholar, but a firm believer in truth has discovered enough inconsistancies through my own examination of the book that confirms for me that it has suffered in the hands of man. 
The Quran, after its compilation never went through a revision to this day. And exists in the same language it was revealed, written and compiled.
 
4- You contradict here, but I know you don't see that. Let me explain what I mean by that. First you said, "son of God", then you said, "God took form of Jesus".
Do you see your contradiction here?
 
Also, for Muslim God does not have, son, just as He does not have a mother, father, a daughter or a son-in-law. Its not God if it has any of those. God is One. You wonder "why would it be any harder to believe that God could take the form of man and reside with man"
Why for you would be hard that God take form of an elephant or a monkey, as a Hindu believes,  or anything imaginable, why not?
It's not about what He is capable of doing, Nothing is beyond His reach. It is about what He is and what He is not. God is not a white or blue man, God does not take over body of a man, monkey or elephant. Those are man's utterances or ideas.  
You said, "If God is so merciful, wouldn't it be the ultimate act of mercy to humble Himself to save us from Hell?
God is Merciful, and it is only though His Mercy and Love that He has sent guidence to all his prophets for their people in their respective times. Those who live by His command sent for their time will be successful in this life and in the Hereafter, and the fire will not touch them, and they will be in the gardens of Paradise.
 
It is He who is God in Heavens and on Earth; And He is full of Wisdom and Knwledge.  (Quran 43:84)
 
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: dzkouns
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 5:01pm
The Bible went through many revisions throughout its history
No, the Bible went through many translations to help believers understand the message.  I know that this is a stumbling block for Muslims because a translation of the Quran is considered more of an interpretation than a translation and that's why I think it is a shame that more Christians don't at least attempt to learn Greek and Hebrew.
In fact if they were that accurate and complete, they would be on the library shelves and book stores and churches. Why are they kept away. If they existed complete and unaltered they rightfully be called the true Gospel.
Actually, I have two copies of the New Testament and a copy of the Old Testament in the original languages.  I bought one at a bookstore around the corner, one at school, and I was given the Old Testament in Hebrew by my cousin.  These texts are based on the most accurate manuscripts available today and are widely available.
Some noticable variations are enough poof for me to believe that they do not speak the truth otherwise they would not differ on account.
The core truth is there.  If we all witness an car wreck, but vary on the minor details when giving an account to the police, no one assumes that the car wreck didn't happen because we can't agree on minor details.  Maybe I said the truck was maroon and you say it is dark red.  The truck is still there.  We don't view the Bible as being descended from Heaven as you view the Quran.  God used men to share His message just like you believe happened with Mohammed.  These men wrote this message with guidance from the Holy Spirit, but these men weren't perfect.  Some of them had bad grammar, some of them forgot a couple of accents, some of them told accounts in a different order, but just like varying accounts at the scene of a wreck, it doesn't mean they were lying.  Do you know Arabic?  Do you read the Quran in Arabic? If yes, great.  But I know that 80% of Muslims rely on "interpretations" and I am willing to bet these "interpretations" have through revisions and may vary on language (some may sound archaic and some more modern).  Are you just as quick to dismiss these interpretations?
 
God would not take the form of an elephant because He isn't seeking a personal relationship through redemption with elephants.  God created Adam to worship.  Adam sinned and cursed us all.  We are born with sin which seperates us from worship and fellowship with God.  So, He elected to humble Himself and take on the punishment for sin which is a blood sacrifice.  He gave the ultimate sacrifice, Himself.  With regards to language like "Son of God" it is referring to His human nature which is intertwined with the Divine nature.  This is a difficult concept for Christians and I can't really go into it (I'm sure Islam has equally difficult doctrines that you struggle to explain), but the point of this was to identify Himself with our situation and provide an example for how we are to live and die, as a worshipful sacrifice.  God showed us that law does not redeem, but only through mercy and grace can one be in fellowship with Him.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." Ephesians 2:8-22


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 6:14pm
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59675&FID=10 - relaxjack -Please point me to those verses.  That's it believe in One GOD, no other moral message?  But the already did?!?

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by believer

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59675&FID=10 - relaxjack -Please point me to those verses.  That's it believe in One GOD, no other moral message?  But the already did?!?
 
Hi beleiver, If I point you out those verse would you believe them, as you demand to see them?
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 5:37pm
Hi beleiver,
here is it anyway, I hope this confirms my claim and point.
"
Al Maidah (5):12 God did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel......(13) their hearts grew hard. They changed the words from their places and forgot a good part of the messsage that was sent them...........
14 From those who call themselves Christians we did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them.........soon will God show them what it is they have done.
15. O people of the Book (Jews and Christians) there hath come to you our Messanger, revealing to you that you used to hide in the book, and passing over much (that is now unneccessary."
 
There hath come to you from God a new light and a perspicuous Book.
16 Wherewith God guides all who seek His good pleasure, to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness by His will, Unto the light-guideth them to  a path that is straight.
 
Hasan
 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 7:27pm

Thank you honeto -

What people fail to remember is that letters and manuscripts from the first disciples were being sent back and forth to the first churches at the very beginning.  Multiple copies were made so many different early churches had the same copies.  There was a meticulous way the scribes made copies.
 
Verse 5:14 - obviously means that in their every day lives the Christians and Jews have forgotten to live by the message they were given.  At the very first Christian church services there were sermons and readings as part of the service.  Even today people do not carry the message from the service out of the church into their every day lives.
 
the Quran says in 5:14 "we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment".  Yes for a time there was but now all Christians live in peace together.  This prediction from the Quran has not panned out.
 
As for 5:17- We all know that Jesus worked under the authority of GOD. 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 7:32pm
honeto - don't you realize the quran had many variations and all but a few were burned!

-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by believer

honeto - don't you realize the quran had many variations and all but a few were burned!
 
beleiver,
its your words against mine. I don't claim what I did not witness. I claim what I witness and observe on my own. The proof is in the pudding.
I had shown you Bible contradictions, on at least these three issues:
1-God
2-Jesus
3-Salvation
Those are the most important issues to me and probably to most of us.
The Bible's position on all three of these is contradictory, a sign of its weakness.
While Quran's contents are in absolute agreement with its contents, a sign of its truthfulness.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: dzkouns
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 4:36pm

Does Allah lie?

But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers S. 3:54
Are they then secure from Allah's deception? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme save folk that perish. S. 7:99

"how the word makr (scheming or plotting), which implies deceitfulness or dishonesty, could be attributed to God." (The Quran and Its Interpreters – The House of Imran [State University of New York Press [SUNY], Albany 1992], Volume II, p. 165)

"Qurtubi observes that some scholars have considered the words ‘best of schemers’ to be one of God’s beautiful names. Thus one would pray, ‘O Best of Schemers, scheme for me!’ Qurtubi also reports that the Prophet used to pray, ‘O God, scheme for me, and do not scheme against me!’ (Qurtubi, IV, pp. 98-99; cf. Zamakhshari, I, p. 366)."

 

"a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time," Titus 1:2

"Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged." Hebrews 6:17-18

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" Galatians 1:8-9



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 5:58pm
You have not shown contradictons in the Bible about any of these things.
 
All you have shown is what is said in the Quran, a book that has no proof that it is the word of GOD.   Just the say so of Mohammad.
 
Do you not see the contradictions in the Quran?  Or your understanding of what is really said?
 
On one hand the Quran confirms the Torah and Injil, then Mohammad says that the Christians and jews are chinging the words- which of course he means the people are not living out what is commanded in their lives.
 
The Quran in its present stage is not a clear understanding for all man.


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: dzkouns
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 6:01pm

who was the first Muslim?

Mohammed?
Say: Shall I choose for a protecting friend other than Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, Who feedeth and is never fed? Say: I am ordered to be the first to surrender [aslama] (unto Him). And be not thou (O Muhammad) of the idolaters. S. 6:14 Pickthall

Say, verily my Lord hath directed me into a right way, a true religion, the sect of Abraham the orthodox; and he was no idolater. Say, verily my prayers, and my worship, and my life, and my death are dedicated unto God, the Lord of all creatures: He hath no companion. This have I been commanded: I am the first Moslem (Wa 'Ana 'Awwalu Al-Muslimin). S. 6:161-163 Sale

He hath no associate. This am I commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims. S. 6:163 Rodwell

Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only). And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him). S. 39:11-12 Pickthall

Jesus and His disciples?
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. S. 3:52

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.’ And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims.’" S. 5:110-111

Abraham?
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim (musliman), and he was not one of the polytheists. S. 3:67 Shakir

Solomon?
Lo! it is from Solomon, and lo! it is: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful; Exalt not yourselves against me, but come unto me as those who surrender (muslimeena). ... So, when she came, it was said (unto her): Is thy throne like this? She said: (It is) as though it were the very one. And (Solomon said): We were given the knowledge before her and we had surrendered (wakunna muslimeena) (to Allah). ... It was said unto her: Enter the hall. And when she saw it she deemed it a pool and bared her legs. (Solomon) said: Lo! it is a hall, made smooth, of glass. She said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged myself, and I surrender (aslamtu) with Solomon unto Allah, the Lord of the Worlds. S. 27:30-31, 42, 44 Pickthall

Or Adam?
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help! S. 22:78

How can Mohammed be the first Muslim? Does the Quran contradict itself?



Posted By: dzkouns
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 6:07pm

Who can Muslims marry?

And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful. S. 2:221 Shakir

O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and let them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise. S. 60:10 Shakir

O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean (al-mushrikoona najasun). So they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, ALLAH will enrich you out of HIS bounty, if HE pleases. Surely, ALLAH is All-Knowing, Wise. Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in ALLAH, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what ALLAH and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection. And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of ALLAH,’ and the Christians say, ‘the Messiah is the son of ALLAH;’ that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved (kafaroo) before them. ALLAH's curse be on them! How they are turned away. They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides ALLAH. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but HE. Holy is HE far above what they associate (yushrikoona) with Him! They seek to extinguish the light of ALLAH with their mouths; but ALLAH refuses but to perfect HIS light, though the disbelievers (al-kafiroona) may resent it. HE it is Who has sent HIS Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that HE may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the idolaters (al-mushrikoona) may resent it. S. 9:28-33 Sher Ali

what about Jews and Christians?
They indeed have disbelieved (kafara) who say, `Surely ALLAH - He is the Messiah, son of Mary.' Say, `Who then has any power against ALLAH, if HE desired to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother and all those that are in the earth?' And to ALLAH belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them. HE creates what HE pleases and ALLAH has power over all things. S. 5:17 Sher Ali

They are unbelievers (kafara) who say, 'God is the Messiah, Mary's son.' For the Messiah said, 'Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything (innahu man yushrik biAllahi), God shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.' S. 5:72 Arberry

Certainly they disbelieve (kafara) who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve. S. 5:73 Shakir

Doesn"t this verse contradict the rest of the Quran?
Today the good things are permitted you, and the food of those who were given the Book is permitted to you, and permitted to them is your food; Likewise believing women in wedlock, and in wedlock women of them who were given the Book before you if you give them their wages, in wedlock and not in licence, or as taking lovers. Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed, and in the world to come he shall be among the losers. S. 5:5 Arberry

 



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by dzkouns

Does Allah lie?

But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers S. 3:54
Are they then secure from Allah's deception? None deemeth himself secure from Allah's scheme save folk that perish. S. 7:99

"how the word makr (scheming or plotting), which implies deceitfulness or dishonesty, could be attributed to God." (The Quran and Its Interpreters – The House of Imran [State University of New York Press [SUNY], Albany 1992], Volume II, p. 165)

"Qurtubi observes that some scholars have considered the words ‘best of schemers’ to be one of God’s beautiful names. Thus one would pray, ‘O Best of Schemers, scheme for me!’ Qurtubi also reports that the Prophet used to pray, ‘O God, scheme for me, and do not scheme against me!’ (Qurtubi, IV, pp. 98-99; cf. Zamakhshari, I, p. 366)."

 

"a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time," Titus 1:2

"Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged." Hebrews 6:17-18

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" Galatians 1:8-9

 
Hi
this is a prime example of interpreting something to fit your purpose and misleading others.
Here is the correct translation:
"And the unbeleivers plotted and planned, And God too planned. And the best of planners is God."3:54
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: dzkouns
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 8:58pm
But the Arabic word makr means to decieve as in lie, not plan.  There is a huge diference.  And multiple English translations render this with the same meaning.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 8:10am
Originally posted by dzkouns

But the Arabic word makr means to decieve as in lie, not plan.  There is a huge diference.  And multiple English translations render this with the same meaning.
 
No, the Arabic word makr means a secret plan or strategy. It does not mean lie or decieve.
 
Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)

3:54 And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.   (Yusuf Ali)

3:54 And the unbelievers schemed [against Jesus]; Asad(3,44)   but God brought their scheming to nought: for God is above all schemers. (M Asad)

3:54 And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers. (Picktall)

 

 



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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 8:24am
"the Quran says in 5:14 "we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment".  Yes for a time there was but now all Christians live in peace together.  This prediction from the Quran has not panned out."
 
What planet are you living on?  There have been wars, and will be more wars.  Rape, murder, child abduction and abuse. Genocides. Look what the Christians are doing to each other in the Congo right now.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 8:51am
Originally posted by dzkouns

 
You are in bold.....
 
who was the first Muslim?
 
Adam
 
Mohammed?
 
These verses are not directed toward the Prophet Mohammed specifically but toward mankind in general. When you put in the beginning verses of the chapter you see that Allah is addressing all of mankind.
 
 
6:1 Praise be Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth, and made the darkness and the light. Yet those who reject Faith hold (others) as equal, with their Guardian-Lord.
 
6:2 He it is created you from clay, and then decreed a stated term (for you). And there is in His presence another determined term; yet ye doubt within yourselves!

Say: Shall I choose for a protecting friend other than Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, Who feedeth and is never fed? Say: I am ordered to be the first to surrender [aslama] (unto Him). And be not thou (O Muhammad) of the idolaters. S. 6:14 Pickthall
 
In this verse Allah is talking to all of mankind, that you should be first in surrendering to God, not among those who do not.
 
Say, verily my Lord hath directed me into a right way, a true religion, the sect of Abraham the orthodox; and he was no idolater. Say, verily my prayers, and my worship, and my life, and my death are dedicated unto God, the Lord of all creatures: He hath no companion. This have I been commanded: I am the first Moslem (Wa 'Ana 'Awwalu Al-Muslimin). S. 6:161-163 Sale
 
6:161 Say: "Verily, my Lord hath guided me to a way that is straight,- a religion of right,- the path (trod) by Abraham the true in Faith, and he (certainly) joined not gods with Allah."
 
6:162 Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds:
 
6:163 No partner hath He: this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His will.
 
Better translation. Once again, these are directed to all of mankind, not the Prophet Mohammed in particular, that you should hasten be first among men to give obedience to God.  Abraham is even mentioned here as one of those who was a Muslim.
 
 
Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only). And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him). S. 39:11-12 Pickthall
 
39:10 Say: "O ye my servants who believe! Fear your Lord, good is (the reward) for those who do good in this world. Spacious is Allah's earth! those who patiently persevere will truly receive a reward without measure!"
 
39:11 Say: "Verily, I am commanded to serve Allah with sincere devotion;
 
39:12 "And I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam."
 
Once you add the first verse it becomes self explanatory.
 
Jesus and His disciples?
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. S. 3:52

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.’ And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims.’" S. 5:110-111

Abraham?
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim (musliman), and he was not one of the polytheists. S. 3:67 Shakir

3:67 Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.
 
 
Solomon?
Lo! it is from Solomon, and lo! it is: In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful; Exalt not yourselves against me, but come unto me as those who surrender (muslimeena). ... So, when she came, it was said (unto her): Is thy throne like this? She said: (It is) as though it were the very one. And (Solomon said): We were given the knowledge before her and we had surrendered (wakunna muslimeena) (to Allah). ... It was said unto her: Enter the hall. And when she saw it she deemed it a pool and bared her legs. (Solomon) said: Lo! it is a hall, made smooth, of glass. She said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged myself, and I surrender (aslamtu) with Solomon unto Allah, the Lord of the Worlds. S. 27:30-31, 42, 44 Pickthall

Or Adam?
And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help! S. 22:78

How can Mohammed be the first Muslim? Does the Quran contradict itself?

 
The Quran does not say that Mohammed was the first Muslim. By the very verses that you posted the Quran states that all of the Prophets and Messengers were Muslims and Adam was the first.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 8:59am
Originally posted by dzkouns

Who can Muslims marry?

And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful. S. 2:221 Shakir

O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and let them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise. S. 60:10 Shakir

O ye who believe! surely, the idolaters are unclean (al-mushrikoona najasun). So they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year of theirs. And if you fear poverty, ALLAH will enrich you out of HIS bounty, if HE pleases. Surely, ALLAH is All-Knowing, Wise. Fight those from among the people of the Book, who believe not in ALLAH, nor in the Last Day, nor hold as unlawful what ALLAH and HIS Messenger have declared to be unlawful, nor follow the true religion, until they pay the tax considering it a favour and acknowledge their subjection. And the Jews say, ‘Ezra is the son of ALLAH,’ and the Christians say, ‘the Messiah is the son of ALLAH;’ that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved (kafaroo) before them. ALLAH's curse be on them! How they are turned away. They have taken their priest and their monks for lords besides ALLAH. And so have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were not commanded but to worship the One God. There is no God but HE. Holy is HE far above what they associate (yushrikoona) with Him! They seek to extinguish the light of ALLAH with their mouths; but ALLAH refuses but to perfect HIS light, though the disbelievers (al-kafiroona) may resent it. HE it is Who has sent HIS Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, that HE may make it prevail over every other religion, even though the idolaters (al-mushrikoona) may resent it. S. 9:28-33 Sher Ali

what about Jews and Christians?
They indeed have disbelieved (kafara) who say, `Surely ALLAH - He is the Messiah, son of Mary.' Say, `Who then has any power against ALLAH, if HE desired to destroy the Messiah, son of Mary, and his mother and all those that are in the earth?' And to ALLAH belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them. HE creates what HE pleases and ALLAH has power over all things. S. 5:17 Sher Ali

They are unbelievers (kafara) who say, 'God is the Messiah, Mary's son.' For the Messiah said, 'Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything (innahu man yushrik biAllahi), God shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.' S. 5:72 Arberry

Certainly they disbelieve (kafara) who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve. S. 5:73 Shakir

Doesn"t this verse contradict the rest of the Quran?
Today the good things are permitted you, and the food of those who were given the Book is permitted to you, and permitted to them is your food; Likewise believing women in wedlock, and in wedlock women of them who were given the Book before you if you give them their wages, in wedlock and not in licence, or as taking lovers. Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed, and in the world to come he shall be among the losers. S. 5:5 Arberry

 

 
 
No, because the believing women that Muslims are allowed to marry would not believe that Jesus is God, the son of God, or in the Trinity. Since most Christians now hold these beliefs a Muslim man should not marry them, as clearly outlined in the above verses from the Quran.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 9:53am

"a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time," Titus 1:2

"Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged." Hebrews 6:17-18

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." John 8:44

"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" Galatians 1:8-9"

1 Kings
 
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

 22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

 23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2 Thessalonians
 
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

 
Ezekiel 14
 
 9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
 
John 7
 
6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

 7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

 8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

 9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

 10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.



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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 4:07pm

Shasta- is it fighting in the name of Christianity?

 

 



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 4:10pm
There will always be wars- man's sinful nature. 
 
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by believer

Shasta- is it fighting in the name of Christianity? 

 
Which war?
 
I'm sorry, does it only count if the Christians fighting do so in the name of God?
 
General Boykin: "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian ... and the enemy is a guy named Satan."

Discussing the battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia, Boykin told another audience, "I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."

"We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of God have been raised for such a time as this," .

George W. Bush:  "I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
 
"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."
"The short-term objective of this country is to find an enemy and bring them to justice before they strike us. The long-term objective is to make this world a more free and hopeful and peaceful place. I believe we'll succeed because freedom is the Almighty God's gift to every man and woman in this world."
 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: dzkouns
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:37am
"Which war?
 
I'm sorry, does it only count if the Christians fighting do so in the name of God?
 
General Boykin: "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian ... and the enemy is a guy named Satan."

Discussing the battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia, Boykin told another audience, "I knew my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."

"We in the army of God, in the house of God, kingdom of God have been raised for such a time as this," .

George W. Bush:  "I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
 
"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."
"The short-term objective of this country is to find an enemy and bring them to justice before they strike us. The long-term objective is to make this world a more free and hopeful and peaceful place. I believe we'll succeed because freedom is the Almighty God's gift to every man and woman in this world."
 "
You know what, for a second I just identified with how it must feel to be a Muslim because the first thing I thought when you listed these quotes was "Wait a second, that doesn't count because they don't represent our message!"  George Bush in no way represents Christianity.  He is a political pawn used to get the evangelical's vote.  It has been unfortunate that a lot of Christians haven't seen through that and misrepresent or beliefs.  It seems that a lot of the junk we pull as the US, our government loves to use Christianity to justify it- such as the support of Israel and the imperialistic mindset.  Now, I don't want to criticize Christianity because I love the Church as the Body of Christ.  I am disappointed that many of my brothers and sisters in Christ don't see through this.  All this to say, whatyou (Shasta'sAunt) posted kind of gave me insight into some of the frusration that must follow when someone asks you about terrorists.  (And I don't know who this General Boykin is but I wish God would hit him with a Bible for making st**id statements like that!)


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 3:23pm
"You know what, for a second I just identified with how it must feel to be a Muslim because the first thing I thought when you listed these quotes was "Wait a second, that doesn't count because they don't represent our message!"  George Bush in no way represents Christianity.  He is a political pawn used to get the evangelical's vote.  It has been unfortunate that a lot of Christians haven't seen through that and misrepresent or beliefs.  It seems that a lot of the junk we pull as the US, our government loves to use Christianity to justify it- such as the support of Israel and the imperialistic mindset.  Now, I don't want to criticize Christianity because I love the Church as the Body of Christ.  I am disappointed that many of my brothers and sisters in Christ don't see through this.  All this to say, whatyou (Shasta'sAunt) posted kind of gave me insight into some of the frusration that must follow when someone asks you about terrorists.  (And I don't know who this General Boykin is but I wish God would hit him with a Bible for making st**id statements like that!)"
 
WOW! I feel kinda warm and fuzzy.  A second of insight is worth a thousand barely skimmed posts.  Thank you for taking that moment and for sharing it.
 
General Boykin was the United States Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence. He has recently retired, but was a major player in the war in Iraq and has recently been tied to Abu Ghraib.  


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: dzkouns
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 9:24am

It is so unfortunate how faith can be hijacked by a government.  It happened with Constantine, Hitler, and the American Republican Party for Christians.  I know it happens in Islam as well.  I think what I've learned from engaging in these conversations and the class I'm taking on Islam now is that faith really comes down to just that- faith.  You can throw all the proof texts against Christianity all day, but the only way I would ever convert to Islam is if Jesus Christ Himself showed up at my door and told me to convert.  I think that it would be the same for you.  I think that I sometimes try to strip down religion to logic and philosophy, but I know that my heart is anchored in Jesus Christ and that I shouldn't expect others to be so shallow in their faith that they would abandon their beliefs at the drop of a couple questions.  I am not comprimising my faith- I still believe that Christ is the only means for salvation and Heaven.  I apologize if anything I have posted has come off as rude or argumentative. 



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:34pm
Shasta's aunt- you are not understanding. 
 
At one time the Christians did fight one another over how to worship, interprete the Bible, who should pastor a church, etc. That is what 5:14 is talking about.  Fighting over religious matters,  not what is going on with Bush and his war on terror. 
 
Also 5:14 is talking about Christian against Christian not Christian against Muslim. 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by believer

Shasta's aunt- you are not understanding. 
 
At one time the Christians did fight one another over how to worship, interprete the Bible, who should pastor a church, etc. That is what 5:14 is talking about.  Fighting over religious matters,  not what is going on with Bush and his war on terror. 
 
Also 5:14 is talking about Christian against Christian not Christian against Muslim. 
 
This is still happening today. Look how "mainstream" Christians treat Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc...  It is extremely interesting given that Christianity in it's modern form was spread by the Catholic Church, and if it were not for the Holy See Christianity might have stalled and withered away. Historically speaking....
 
There are Christians fighting Christians, at any time there are any number of wars and skirmishes occuring all over the world, not to mention crime.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by dzkouns

It is so unfortunate how faith can be hijacked by a government.  It happened with Constantine, Hitler, and the American Republican Party for Christians.  I know it happens in Islam as well.  I think what I've learned from engaging in these conversations and the class I'm taking on Islam now is that faith really comes down to just that- faith.  You can throw all the proof texts against Christianity all day, but the only way I would ever convert to Islam is if Jesus Christ Himself showed up at my door and told me to convert.  I think that it would be the same for you.  I think that I sometimes try to strip down religion to logic and philosophy, but I know that my heart is anchored in Jesus Christ and that I shouldn't expect others to be so shallow in their faith that they would abandon their beliefs at the drop of a couple questions.  I am not comprimising my faith- I still believe that Christ is the only means for salvation and Heaven.  I apologize if anything I have posted has come off as rude or argumentative. 

 
It's all about faith. Faith that God exists to begin with, then you go from there.
 
I think I can come off as aggressive at times, but that is only because it seems as though Islam itself is taking a beating and people just don't want to really listen to what normal, everyday Muslims have to say about the religion they love and live daily. Every Muslim on the board will tell you about the beauty of Islam. Many of us are reverts. Do you really think we would willingly accept a religion of hatred and intolerance? Do you think we would think that beautiful?
 
What I find most frustrating is the double standard. If someone is a Muslim, whether they practice Islam or not, when they do something wrong it is because of Islam and it suddenly becomes a tenant of our faith. When a Christian does something wrong, they aren't a "real" Christian or they are not following Christianity. End of story.
 
Having been a Christian for most of my life, I do have a working knowledge of Christianity, so it is difficult for me not to respond in kind when I feel that Islam is under attack.  Therefore I must apologise also. It is not my intention to undermine Christianity or mock anyone's beliefs, but rather to show that given a certain mindset and taking things completely out of context can make any religion look bad.  It is up to us as individuals to look beyond this and try to see the truth.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: dzkouns
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 6:11am

Shasta'sAunt- So you're a revert?  Do you mind me asking what demoniation of Christianity you practiced and how you came to Islam?  I think it is very interesting when Christians convert to Islam because of the Christian doctrine on Perserverance of the Saints (Yes, I admit it, I am Calvinist in my understanding of salvation!)



Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by dzkouns

Shasta'sAunt- So you're a revert?  Do you mind me asking what demoniation of Christianity you practiced and how you came to Islam?  I think it is very interesting when Christians convert to Islam because of the Christian doctrine on Perserverance of the Saints (Yes, I admit it, I am Calvinist in my understanding of salvation!)

 
My mother was raised Catholic and my father Baptist. We first went to Baptist services, but as I got older I went to different churches. I was searching.
 
I don't really know anything about Calvinism, but I did do a search when I read this post. In the Baptist church there are some who believe that once you are saved you are always saved, no matter what. I think this might be close to the beliefs of the Calvinists?
 
Even as a child I did not believe that one person could be held responsible for the mistakes, or sins of another: Adam, nor did I believe that one person could pay for the mistakes/sins of another.  The whole concept of all of mankind being tainted for the sin of Adam made absolutely no sense to me. If I didn't personally commit the sin, how could I be guilty for it? Just as the concept of Jesus being sacrificed to atone for my sins, but in a greater sense the original sin of Adam, made no sense to me.
 
Even a small child can see that if you are the one who lies or breaks the vase, you are the one punished for it.  I never understood how all of mankind was collectively punished, then collectively forgiven through the death of another, without doing anything at all.  I am born so I am a sinner, I accept that Jesus died for me and I am not. In the meantime I haven't done anything....
 
I guess I didn't understand how God could create man just to punish him willy nilly, without rhyme or reason.  That didn't seem fair, just or loving in any way. Nor did the human sacrifice of Jesus to make up for the sins that man committed and inherited.  How is it that I can sin, yet be saved just because someone else died? Where is my personal responsiblity in any of this, and why would God create man then play such strange and unjust games with His creation?
 
I also had difficulty believing the doctrine of the Trinity. God is monotheistic, yet He is three separate entities. 
 
There was no logic behind this doctrine and I began questioning it at a very early age.  I believed that God was a Fair and Loving God.
I also believe that as a rational being who has been created with intelligence and the ability to reason, that I must be held responsible for my own sins, and try to work towards my own salvation.
 
Surely God did not create man just to confuse and punish him. That would not be a loving God at all. So, I started studying other religions, looking for something that was missing. I think I was looking for logic, something that gave me a sense of rightness (for lack of a better word), and verification that God is Loving, Forgiving, Just, and Fair.  That all men are judged equally and given the same criterion for salvation, we only have to strive to meet that criterion. 
 
In Islam we believe, although sometimes shamefully do not practice, that all men are equal, money, status, power, beauty do not matter, they are raised above others by Allah only by their righteousness.  But it is that individual's righteousness, not collective, not third party, not preordained by Allah.  In Islam you truly do reap what you sow. 
 
Very simply, there is truth in Islam.   


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 May 2008 at 4:46am
Shasta's Aunt- Ok, I think I see, you are equating diassagreement and discussion with fighting.
 
You believe the statment to mean complete harmony.  Does that also mean only one expression of Christian faith?
 
Just curious about your opinion.  Do you believe that Muslims are all in harmony?  I have spoken with some that believe yes and others that say no.
 
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 2:18am
Originally posted by believer

Shasta's Aunt- Ok, I think I see, you are equating diassagreement and discussion with fighting.
 
You believe the statment to mean complete harmony.  Does that also mean only one expression of Christian faith?
 
Just curious about your opinion.  Do you believe that Muslims are all in harmony?  I have spoken with some that believe yes and others that say no.
 
 
 
I think the original verse from The Quran said enmity and hatred, not necessarily war. You stated that at one time this was true but now all Christians live in peace together, but I disagree with this statement. Leaving military conflict aside, all Christians do not necessarily live without enmity or hatred. 
 
I do not think all Muslims are in harmony, but we all have the same basic beliefs. 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 1:16pm
Hi,
great conversation and replies by everyone. I guess it comes down to the fact, that people will be people regardless what they follow or claim to follow. Whether be Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Communist, Capitalist etc. If each one follow its course and doctrine correctly will not fight but for the right and Justice, and not otherwise.
 
And I guess it is also the very reason that we are having this talk to find answers to our questions and to understand things better. Hopefully thus we help to make a differance individually, toward a better outcome for ourself and for others!
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 6:02pm

Galatians 6

 7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

James 2  http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=22 -   http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=10 -   http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=26 -   http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2 -

Faith and Deeds
 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
      Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 9:38am
believer,
that is right, every action and intention a man does, he will reap it then. A true believer is the one who knows the rights and duties of others put on him by God. It is through doing good and avoiding bad in truth that God will overlook and forgive your bad actions you did but repented.
That is quite unlike the blood sacrifice idea that Christians try to sell, that the price of sin is death and one can only be saved by a blood sacrifice, and not just by God's forgiveness and good works of an individual.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 7:01am
Think of Jesus' sacrifice as covering the part leftover when  our good deeds fall short of erasing all the bad deeds.
 
Christians believe that everyone is incapable of erasing all their bad deeds.
 
Am I understanding that Muslims believe they are able to be perfect-sinless?


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by believer

Think of Jesus' sacrifice as covering the part leftover when  our good deeds fall short of erasing all the bad deeds.
 
Christians believe that everyone is incapable of erasing all their bad deeds.
 
Am I understanding that Muslims believe they are able to be perfect-sinless?
 
If Jesus wipes out part of our sins, then we are not reaping what we sow.
 
Muslims do not believe man can be perfect-sinless, we believe that Allah is very forgiving of man's sin when they repent with sincerity and truly strive to be righteous.
 
Man will never be equal to Allah in perfection or lack of sin, and Allah as our Creator knows this. How could He not know it?  So, why would Allah create us as imperfect beings, then expect us to be perfect?  


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 3:11pm

Well said Shasta's Aunt.

believer,you wrote:
"Christians believe that everyone is incapable of erasing all their bad deeds. Am I understanding that Muslims believe they are able to be perfect-sinless?"
I don't know why it is said in your bible that once you are a true Christian, you will not sin no more? you did not think it was possible, right??
But look here in your own book what it says:
It is John quoted here to have said:
1 John 2
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; "
 
Just as Shasta's Aunt said we, Muslims  seek God's forgiveness, which is promised for those who repent. In fact your book says that as well.
Luke 13:5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
We know every day , every moment we make mistakes, and a true believer asks God's forgivess as many times. And this we don't do through a self appointed intermediatory, but directly to God, even in our heart and it reaches Him. God is The Forgiving, The Merciful. 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 7:17pm
honeto I think you meant-1 John 3:9.  Read the whole thing.  I think of this as more of a pep talk.  
 
1 John 3
 
1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

 4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

 7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 13 May 2008 at 6:41am

Our souls were born perfect. NO SOULS WERE BORN IMPERFECT.

But the NAFS or the lust/passion/desire and the Satan in us leads us astray from the ONE TRUE GOD. And God also created in us the Angels to lead us to Him. He also created in us the 'Aqal or brain that can differentiate right from wrong. However the brain or intellect cannot work without 'ilmu or knowledge of God Almighty. with the knowledge of God, the NAFS could be tamed and Satan's grip could be weakened. However, for Muslims, 'ilmu or knowledge is not enough if it is not being practised. (amal)
 
That is why ALLAH IS AL-GHAFUR- MOST FORGIVING. ALLAH IS AT-TAWWAB - THE ACCEPTER OF REPENTANCE. AND HE IS AR-RAHMAN AND AR-RAHEEM - MOST COMPASSIONATE AND MOST MERCIFUL.
 
 


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: Tariq
Date Posted: 15 May 2008 at 10:00am

WHAT THEY SAY

CHRISTIANS CONFESS

Dr. W. Graham Scroggie of the MOODY BIBLE INSTITUTE, Chicago, one of the most prestigious Christian Evangelical Mission in the world, answering the question — "Is the Bible the Word of God?" (also the title of his book), under the heading: IT IS HUMAN, YET DIVINE. He says on page 17:

"Yes, the Bible is human, though some, out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, 1 have denied this. Those books2 have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men, and bear in their style the characteristics of men." (Emphasis added).

Another erudite Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says on page 277 of his book, "The Call of the Minaret":

"Not so the New Testament3 . . . There is condensation and editing; 4 there is choice, reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the Church behind the authors. They represent experience and history." 5

If words have any meaning, do we need to add another word of comment to prove our case? No! But the professional propagandists, after letting the cat out of the bag, still have the face to try to make their readers believe that they have proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that the Bible is the "irrefragable 6 Word of God." Their semantic gymnastics — equivocating, and playing with words — is amazing!

1. Out of ignorance.

2. The Bible is not Just a Book. It is a selection and compilation of many books.

3. As opposed to the Qur’ân.

4. Another word for Interpolating.

5. Emphasis are mine.

6. Indisputable.

Both these Doctors of Religion are telling us in the clearest language humanly possible that the Bible is the handiwork of man, all the while pretending that the are proving to the contrary. An old Arab saying goes: "IF SUCH ARE THE PRIESTS, GOD BLESS THE CONGREGATION."

With this sort of drivel, the hot-gospeller and the Bible-thumper is "inspired" to harry the "heathen." 1 A theological student — a not-yet-qualified young evangelist — from the University of Witwatersrand, became a frequent visitor to the Newtown Mosque in Johannesburg, with the "noble" thought of "witnessing"2 to the members of its congregation. When I was introduced to him, (and having learnt his purpose), I invited him to lunch at my brother's residence — a stone's-throw from the Mosque. While discussing the authenticity of the Bible over the dinner table and sensing his stubborn dogmatism, I put out a feeler: "Your Professor Geyser, (The Head of the Department of Theology) does not believe the Bible to be the Word of God." Without the slightest surprise he answered, "I know." Now I personally had no knowledge of the Professor's conviction about the Bible. I had only assumed so from a controversy which raged around him about the "Divinity of Christ." 3 He had taken issue with the orthodox believers on this point some years ago. I continued further, saying, "Your lecturer does not believe the Bible as being God's Word." The young evangelist, responded again, "I know" but he continued this time-with the words, "but I believe that it is the Word of God!" There is no real remedy for such people. Even Jesus bewailed this sickness:

"... seeing they see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." (Matthew 13:13)

Al-Qur'an, the Holy Book of God, also condemns this mulish mentality:

file:///D:/web/IS%20THE%20BIBLE%20GODS%20WORD%20-%20By%20Ahmed%20Deedat_files/Image58.jpg - - - These pages are now addressed to those sincerely humble souls, who are genuinely interested in seeking the Light of God, and who wish to be guided by it. As for the other, with a sickness in their souls, the facts presented herein can only increase the disease of their hearts. - - 1. by the same MOODY PRESS of Dr. Scroggie. - - 2. - - 3. - - file:///D:/web/IS%20THE%20BIBLE%20GODS%20WORD%20-%20By%20Ahmed%20Deedat_files/blesepd.gif -

-



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 May 2008 at 6:54pm

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58927&FID=10 - I don't think it matters if you believe in the original sin or that man was born perfect.  All die having sinned, none are perfect.

What does the Muslim believe is the cause of death?


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 18 May 2008 at 7:31am
Originally posted by believer

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58927&FID=10 - I don't think it matters if you believe in the original sin or that man was born perfect.  All die having sinned, none are perfect.

What does the Muslim believe is the cause of death?
 
Regarding the original sin, of course it matters. A Christian perception of God is a God who is not Merciful, full of vengeance, asking blood sacrifice from a beloved servant of His. Wonder what kind of God the Christians are worshipping to.
 
All souls were born perfect. But we were born with Nafs (passion/lust/desire and Satan) With these elements in us, we can never be perfect. Perfection belongs to God.
 
Muslims' perception of God is a God who is full of Compassion and Mercy. Most Forgiving and An Accepter of Repentance.
 
A Merciful God would never leave His beloved prophet helplessly strapped  to a pole. Allah in the Quran had stated that He with His Mercy, took His beloved prophet up with him and in turn the betrayer that was Judas, took the form of Jesus and was crucified. You know why? Because He is capable of doing it. He is indeed Allahuakbar! Allah the Greatest. Leaving a beloved of His, contradicts His Mercy and His Compassion.
 
The cause of death is when the five important organs in your body do not function anymore and thus not compatible with the soul Hence the soul must leave the body.


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 19 May 2008 at 11:53pm
Originally posted by dzkouns

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim (I believe this as a Christian, for sure
 
I am studying Islam in school and have had a hard time figuring out some of the beliefs that Muslims have about the Injeel.

1. Was the Injeel corrupted when Mohammed lived?

2. Who corrupted it and how/why?

3.Has anyone read it? (The Qur'an commands that one read the Injeel, the Tawrat, and the Zabur!)  If so, how did it match with the Qur'an?

Not trying to convert anybody here, but I haven't understood how these answers play out in Muslim thinking.  Thanks.
 
True errors have been found in the text of the Bible, but when they are found and corrected then that leaves you wigh a corrected or uncorupted text, God's cleans words.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 10:59am
If you are born with nafs then you are not bron perfect!!!
 
Jesus is GOD, not a poor helpless prophet!!


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by believer

If you are born with nafs then you are not bron perfect!!!
 
Jesus is GOD, not a poor helpless prophet!!
 
Hi Believer,
 
May I ask you if King David had a nafs or not? Jesus is somehow, unnecessarily, linked to him.
 
Hope you like this! I have begun to suspect there were two Jesuses. Wink
 
Jesus is MAN, not a poor helpless God!! LOL
 
BMZ
 
 


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Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."



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