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Seems like a false statement. Please explain.

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12245
Printed Date: 25 October 2014 at 4:37pm


Topic: Seems like a false statement. Please explain.
Posted By: believer
Subject: Seems like a false statement. Please explain.
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 2:16pm

Does Allah know?  Yes both follow Old Testament , but Jews do not follow the New Testament Scriptures like the Christians.

002.113
YUSUFALI: The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



Replies:
Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 3:17pm
Why is it a false statement?   Both religions study the same book, that book being the Old Testament.  The fact that Christians also study another book (the new Testament) does not make the first statement untrue.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:12pm
The Old and New Testament is combined in our Book.  The sentence combines both Jewish and Christian Holy Scripture into the same Book.
 
If it had said that the Jews and Christians study the same Torah it would be correct.


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:54am
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
I dont find any word equivalent to *same* in the arabic text. If you notice two of the three translations have put this word in parenthesis - which denotes their** understanding of the word Al-Kitaab - literally The Book. It means the scriptures in the context of this verse.  Allahu alam.


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:21pm

Yes i see that thnk you.

What is your understanding of Scripture?  Book?
 
 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:26pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
When Quran talks about "the-book" it means revelation. Be it a former revelation or the Quran itself, depending on the context.  The jews and christians were also given revelations ... or scriptures or the-book.
 
 
and Allah knows best.


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by believer

Yes i see that thnk you.

What is your understanding of Scripture?  Book?
 
 

It is not a false statement; OT & NT found bound together is being pointed out by Allah that Paul abrogated the LAW and Jews don't accept the Messiahship of Jesus! With all that it doesn't make sense to keep them in one cover unless  everyone  doing his own interpretations!


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Doo-bop
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by believer

Yes i see that thnk you.

What is your understanding of Scripture?  Book?
 
 

It is not a false statement; OT & NT found bound together is being pointed out by Allah that Paul abrogated the LAW and Jews don't accept the Messiahship of Jesus! With all that it doesn't make sense to keep them in one cover unless  everyone  doing his own interpretations!
 
http://w -
Paul did not abrogate the law, Christ fulfilled the law, bringing the age of Mosaic law to completion.  The law of Moses was for the Jews, but the Gospel is for everyone to obey


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by believer

Yes i see that thnk you.

What is your understanding of Scripture?  Book?
 
 

It is not a false statement; OT & NT found bound together is being pointed out by Allah that Paul abrogated the LAW and Jews don't accept the Messiahship of Jesus! With all that it doesn't make sense to keep them in one cover unless  everyone  doing his own interpretations!
 
 Yes, it is interesting to note that bible NT and OT are bound together in one book without any reason. That is specially bad since the Jews rejected Jesus completely to the point of killing him. So the Jews reject the NT.
 
 The Christians (Due to Saul) reject the the Mosaic Law. So what use is the OT to the christians? When they do not follow the Law of Moses ( That law being a curse to the christians by the teachings of Saul), then why the two books are bound together? The Jews definitely do not need such a book.
 
 The christians, if their teaching was perfect, should also not need anything extra to what Jesus gave them. Why they are occupied with something that did not belong to Jesus? The OT does not belong to Jesus. And the writings of Saul also do not belong to Jesus. If all these extra writings are taken away from the church people (Bible NT)  then they will have very little left of their real book. Even that will also not be real. There will be four books (gospels in parallel)  all describing the life time of Jesus. So the four books will be equal to ( + or - ) one book only. That would be very little.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:43pm
We follow the 10 Commandments, but Jesus tells us to follow them as mentioned in the Gospel. 
 
The Old testament is the history of the Jewish people.  Through Jesus we are grafted onto the vine of the Jews.
 
The Old Testament is an honest portrayal of man and show us why we need Jesus.  It is also included to prove that the prophecies have been fulfilled by Jesus.
 
 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by believer

We follow the 10 Commandments, but Jesus tells us to follow them as mentioned in the Gospel. 
 
The Old testament is the history of the Jewish people.  Through Jesus we are grafted onto the vine of the Jews.
 
The Old Testament is an honest portrayal of man and show us why we need Jesus.  It is also included to prove that the prophecies have been fulfilled by Jesus.
 
 
 
beleiver,
so can you show me where in the Old testament did it say that God will come to the earth in the form of a man.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by minuteman

The christians, if their teaching was perfect, should also not need anything extra to what Jesus gave them. Why they are occupied with something that did not belong to Jesus?

Muslims accept many of the characters in the Old Testament as prophets, do they not?  And aside from the occasional mention of their names in the Quran, how do Muslims know about these prophets except through the Old Testament?  So aren't Muslims also "occupied" with the Old Testament in exactly the same way as Christians?


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 6:38am
 
  At least we do not say that law given to Moses was a curse. We say that was a good law for the children of Israel. i.e. for Jesus and his friends. Jesus Never rejected that law. But it is not practiced by the christians. Their theory is that law was a curse.
 
 Since that law is written in the bible OT, The christians should get away from it. But they carry the OT with  them as part of their faith. They consider it as a  sacred book and  at the same time think that was a curse.
 
 We Muslims do not have the bible OT or NT tied up with our Quran.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by Doo-bop

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by believer

Yes i see that thnk you.

What is your understanding of Scripture?  Book?
 
 

It is not a false statement; OT & NT found bound together is being pointed out by Allah that Paul abrogated the LAW and Jews don't accept the Messiahship of Jesus! With all that it doesn't make sense to keep them in one cover unless  everyone  doing his own interpretations!
 
http://w -
Paul did not abrogate the law, Christ fulfilled the law, bringing the age of Mosaic law to completion.  The law of Moses was for the Jews, but the Gospel is for everyone to obey

You seem to act like resident adjudicator when you don't know what you are talking about; you would think think others are living under some rock!
Nice try! Read it loud who are you foolin my man?

Galatians 3:10-14
10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11
Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Where is fulfilled mentioned?
What do you mean by fulfilled anywaus?
What an easy way to make a link with Abraham! Who must be turning in his grave!

As the saying goes  "Want to have a  cake and eat it too!"

Law was for the Jews and the (Gospel) lawlessness for the rest-gentilesLOL
Why are they still selling and buying Kosher stuff also at premium prices?

No wonder now the Jews control the fate of the gentiles worldwide!
The heads of the super powers are in Israeli back pockets!
I recommend that you do your homework first before post time!Wink


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 4:56pm
 
Matthew 15
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

 3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
 8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me.
 9They worship me in vain;
      their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

 10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Matthew 19
 Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
 
Jesus as sinless being came to magnify, or fill completely full, the meaning of God's law.
 
You missed the point- 12The law is not based on faith;
 
"Falling short of the law leads to death. At this we diverge from all other religions on earth. Do you realize that according to just these two scriptures not only are we cursed, but so are all religions that depend upon living up to the law? Because they depend on obeying the law for salvation – whether God’s law or any other law – they are cursed."


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by minuteman

The christians, if their teaching was perfect, should also not need anything extra to what Jesus gave them. Why they are occupied with something that did not belong to Jesus?

Muslims accept many of the characters in the Old Testament as prophets, do they not?  And aside from the occasional mention of their names in the Quran, how do Muslims know about these prophets except through the Old Testament?  So aren't Muslims also "occupied" with the Old Testament in exactly the same way as Christians?
 
Hi Ron,
let me explain and correct your purception of Mulsim's accepting what you refered to as " many of the characters in the Old Testament as prophets".
Muslims only accept the account of previous prophets mentioned in the Quran. We do not consult or use any information stored in the O/T for refrance or otherwise.
The Quran provides us with authentic unaltered information on the prophets of the old, revealed by God. 
If you see us quote here anything from the O/T or the N/T is only when we are engaged into a discussion with those who beleive in it to be true.
Muslims do not beleive in O/T or N/T to be from God anymore, as we beleive them to have be altered by man, thus no more the word of God.
Thus Muslims do not have the O/T like the Christians do as you suggested.
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by believer

 
 
12The law is not based on faith;
 
"Falling short of the law leads to death. At this we diverge from all other religions on earth. Do you realize that according to just these two scriptures not only are we cursed, but so are all religions that depend upon living up to the law? Because they depend on obeying the law for salvation – whether God’s law or any other law – they are cursed."
 
Believer, you are saying that God's Law is not based on faith, and that anyone who follows God's Law is cursed?
 
BTW: Islam does not believe that falling short of God's Law is death. 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 3:18pm
No still not getting it.  If GOD is going to judge us on the last day by HIS Law then we will perish because non of us is capable of following HIS Law.
 
There are many people who are atheists they have the law written on their hearts, but have no faith. 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 3:28pm
Islam does not believe that falling short of God's Law is death. 
 
So who go to hell in Islam? 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by believer

Islam does not believe that falling short of God's Law is death. 
 
So who go to hell in Islam? 
 
First, going to hell is not death. It is eternity in hell.
 
Second, God has stated in the Quran that the only sin God will not forgive is shirk.  Otherwise He forgives who He wills.
 
God created man and therefore would know how well we could follow His Laws. I am rather confused as to what is so difficult? 
 
I don't understand how you can keep saying that God is so loving, yet believe that He would demand man to be perfect, when God who created knows we are not, and demand a human sacrifice to make up for the imperfection He gave us. 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by believer

No still not getting it.  If GOD is going to judge us on the last day by HIS Law then we will perish because non of us is capable of following HIS Law.
 
There are many people who are atheists they have the law written on their hearts, but have no faith. 
 
 
You seem to think that God created His Laws so that man would fail to follow them.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 4:19pm
 LOL!!  OK, I was using the wages of sin is death- as of the soul being separate from GOD.
 
shirk - could be serving anything other then GOD.  A lot of people serve things of this world other then GOD -  Fashion, cars, drugs, money, jogging -yes jogging!!  lol!! 
 
So some there are some people that Allah will not forgive under any condition?  for some reason unknown to us?
 
How long can you go before having a mean thought,
 
Because He gave of Himself for us!!  All can be saved!!  GOD will forgive even shirk by repenting and beliving in Jesus.
 
 
 


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 4:31pm
"GOD will forgive even shirk by repenting and beliving in Jesus."
 
If you believe Jesus is God, then you'd have to believe this.... 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 4:42pm
LOL!!  Do you believe in only the literal shirk?
 
So some there are some people that Allah will not forgive under any condition?  for some reason unknown to us?


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

God created man and therefore would know how well we could follow His Laws.
He would know generally how capable (or not) we are of following His laws, but I don't see how He can know our every action in advance.  If you assume that, then you have to reject the whole concept of free will and we become mere automatons.  Furthermore, if we are incapable of making real choices -- if all our behaviour is predetermined -- then how can we be blamed for our sins?


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

God created man and therefore would know how well we could follow His Laws.
He would know generally how capable (or not) we are of following His laws, but I don't see how He can know our every action in advance.  If you assume that, then you have to reject the whole concept of free will and we become mere automatons.  Furthermore, if we are incapable of making real choices -- if all our behaviour is predetermined -- then how can we be blamed for our sins?
 
If God knows what we will choose to do, how does that in any way diminish our ability to choose it?  God is not forcing us to make the choice. 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by believer

LOL!!  Do you believe in only the literal shirk?
 
So some there are some people that Allah will not forgive under any condition?  for some reason unknown to us?
 
 

“Verily, Allaah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allaah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin” [al-Nisa’ 4:48] 

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) there are no helpers” [al-Maa'idah 5:72] 



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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 7:16pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

If God knows what we will choose to do, how does that in any way diminish our ability to choose it?  God is not forcing us to make the choice. 
If God knows what I will do in advance, then it must be determined in advance.  If it is determined in advance, then I cannot choose any other path.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 7:32pm
"If God knows what I will do in advance, then it must be determined in advance.  If it is determined in advance, then I cannot choose any other path."
 
Who determines it?
You are given the choice and only you can make the choice. Perhaps you yourself already know what you will choose, but that does not mean that you haven't chosen it. If you get drunk tonight and drive your car, God isn't making you do that. You are choosing to do it yourself. Because God is Omniscient He knows that you will choose to get drunk and drive, but God certainly isn't forcing you to drink or handing you the car keys.
 
Just because God knows everything, that does not take the onus off of mankind to choose the correct path. You still have free will. 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Who determines it?
Obviously not me.  You are implying that my choices are determined even before I am born.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Who determines it?
Obviously not me.  You are implying that my choices are determined even before I am born.
 
I am implying that God has knowledge of your existence and what paths you will choose in your lifetime. YOU still have to make those choices. 
 
If you come to a fork in the road and have to go left or right God will know which direction you will choose, but you still have to make that choice.  It is still completely up to you.
 
I think the problem you are having here is the concept of God being All-Knowing. 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 4:47pm
It it is predetermined, then it is not a choice.  The only way God could know what I will "choose" is if he has designed me in such a way, and exposed me to such external influences which have developed my character in such a way, that in a given situation there is only one possible "choice" that I can make.
 
But that's not a choice; at best it's only an illusion of choice.  The choice was actually made by God, when He designed me or exposed me to those external factors which determined my choice.  I have no more free will than an actor, cast in a role in a cosmic play whose script was written by God.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

It it is predetermined, then it is not a choice.  The only way God could know what I will "choose" is if he has designed me in such a way, and exposed me to such external influences which have developed my character in such a way, that in a given situation there is only one possible "choice" that I can make.
 
But that's not a choice; at best it's only an illusion of choice.  The choice was actually made by God, when He designed me or exposed me to those external factors which determined my choice.  I have no more free will than an actor, cast in a role in a cosmic play whose script was written by God.
 
If you believe that then there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 7:30pm
Ermm Of course I don't believe that.  I'm making a reductio ad absurdum argument.  The assumption that God knows in advance everything that I will do leads inevitably to the (absurd) conclusion that I have no free will.
 
In a nutshell: either I make the choice, or God made the choice when He made me (and/or the universe).  You can't have it both ways.


Posted By: ejdavid3
Date Posted: 25 April 2008 at 6:48pm
Well, Well, Well. The final judgement. According to some Roman Catholics, at the end of times those in heaven will be shown those in hell and asked if those in hell should be forgiven.

The obvious answer is yes, of course. The church does not like to explore this subject much in public, because it could lead to some, well, missunderstanding of sin.

Still, I find it the best of all possible conclussions.


Posted By: ejdavid3
Date Posted: 25 April 2008 at 7:11pm
Ron

I have spent the last decade or two exploring the possible confluence of Quantum Mechanics (Hiesnbergs Uncertainty Principle for instance), and find a very large opening for free will. Recently, The Standard Model, String Theory, and M theory pretty much open the way not only for eternal life, but even RESURECTED life. As if it were simple childs play.

After all, every photon and every particle in the universe affects all the others. In addition, Quantum Mechanics is STILL supporting that the laws of thermodynamics etc, do not permit the loss of any information, even in a black hole.

Well! The more robust expansions of M theory postulate all this is coordinated by a specific number of OTHER dimensions. I think the agreed upon number is either 9 or 11, but no matter.

Actual science is very near the point of no return. First, whatever word you wish to use for God is insufficent to accomodate the actual science. Second, thirty years of SETI, and refinements in the Drake Equation are becoming irrisistable. We may very well be the only techonological life that has ever existed in this Universe. I find that a curious possibility, but the science over the last several decades has moved inexorably in that direction.

I will discuss the Drake Equation with anyone who knows the original predicted 47 technological civilization in the milky way galaxly at this time. You will NOT believe the number of zeroes (the power of 10) that have been revealed since then.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 12:22pm
Originally posted by ejdavid3

I have spent the last decade or two exploring the possible confluence of Quantum Mechanics (Hiesnbergs Uncertainty Principle for instance), and find a very large opening for free will.

Yes, I agree.  The point I was making is that is that if we have free will, then our actions are not predetermined; and that means that no one, not even God, knows what choices we will make.
 
To put it another way, if God knew when He created us exactly what we would do and what sins we would commit, then surely He should at least share the blame.  It was His choice to make us the way we are.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 12:52pm

Shausta's Aunt you said:

I am implying that God has knowledge of your existence and what paths you will choose in your lifetime. YOU still have to make those choices. 
 
If you come to a fork in the road and have to go left or right God will know which direction you will choose, but you still have to make that choice.  It is still completely up to you.
 
I think the problem you are having here is the concept of God being All-Knowing. 
 
 
My post is in bold
 
This is a terrible explanation  by you.....
 
If God knows I will sin at 10:00am how am I ultimately  free? This pre-determinist problem has staunched many and don't think you can explain it very well on IslamiCity. Of course God may not cause someone to sin at 10:00am how we can also say that by God not acting upon intervening we can also say that by God's own laws God is not free himself to intervene because it violates so-called free-will. By God knowing our choices does not necessarily mean that our choices are free once we act upon them. In God's mind our actions have already been actualized in the future (e.g. since God knows the future before it actually happens in our time).
 
So here are the problems with freewill
 
1) God knows I will sin at 10:00am
 
2) God knows I will sin at 10:00am but will not intervene
 
We can say God is all-knowing all we want but if God knows prior to action that one will sin then the actions that I do in actuality are thus fulfilling what has transpired in God's mind already. In otherwords although its 8:00am 2 hours from now, God knows that I will sin at 10:00am and thus my actions up until that point are just fulfilling what God already knew.
 
Actions are not independent of God therefore they are dependent upon potentialities (e.g. things such as experiences are set up for us that allows us to act) which come from other previous actions (yes this is quite philosophical of me!). If God intervenes he knew in his mind that at 10:00am he would prevent me from sinning, but even with this in mind I could say God violated my freewill to sin. Of course we could go on and on about this but more importantly what I wanted to comment on what Shausta's comment which was totally false.
 
God's prior knowledge of our actions does nopt necessitate that we actually are free. If God knows I'm going to Hell, the choicesd I make on earth are thus fulfilling what God already knows. I hope this sounds clear.
 


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 26 April 2008 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by Israfil

God's prior knowledge of our actions does nopt necessitate that we actually are free.  
We're on the same page, Israfil, but I would say the converse: God's prior knowledge of our actions would necessitate that we are not actually free.  Further, if God knows about a crime in advance, and is (of course) able to stop it but does nothing, then IMHO that would make Him an accessory to that crime.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 4:37pm
"Of course we could go on and on about this but more importantly what I wanted to comment on what Shausta's comment which was totally false."
 
 
Israfil:
 
I'm not sure what part you find false, that Allah is All-Knowing or that Allah gave us free will?
 
Allah is AL-ALIM: The All-Knowing.   ALL KNOWING.  Past, present, future...... 
 
AL-KHABIR: The All-Aware. ALL AWARE. Aware of everything, everywhere.
 
AL-BASIR: The All-Seeing.  ALL SEEING.
 
AS-SAMI: The All-Hearing. ALL HEARING.
 
Allah also states:
 
Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

The only compulsion that Allah has put upon man was creating man with free will.   Thus we are compelled to choose, but WE make the choice.
 
 
 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 5:08pm
"Actions are not independent of God therefore they are dependent upon potentialities"
 
I did not say that our actions are independent of God, did I? Nothing can be independent of God because we are all acting within a sphere of God's creation and cannot act out of that sphere. Nor can we act beyond the limits of the order established by God.
 
However, God willed that we should be free to make our own decisions within the sphere and limits of His creation and that we should be held responsible for those decisions.
 
 
"God's prior knowledge of our actions does nopt necessitate that we actually are free. If God knows I'm going to Hell, the choicesd I make on earth are thus fulfilling what God already knows."
 
What is your point here? That because God knows, you are somehow not free to make your own choices?  How does God's knowledge preclude you from making a choice? YOU still have to make that choice.
 
God gave us free will and has told us He will judge us upon our actions.
 
An-Nahl (The Bee)

16:93 If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions.

Al-Insan (Man)

76:3 We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will).

 
 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 7:02pm
predetermine
 

Main Entry:
pre·de·ter·mine javascript:popWin%28/cgi-bin/audio.pl?predet02.wav=predetermine%29">Listen%20to%20the%20pronunciation%20of%20predetermine
Pronunciation:
\-di-ˈtər-mən\
Function:
transitive verb
Etymology:
Late Latin praedeterminare, from Latin prae- + determinare to determine
Date:
1622
1 a:  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/foreordain - foreordain , http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predestine - predestine b: to determine beforehand
2: to impose a direction or tendency on beforehand (Merriam-Webster)
 
Allah is not determining nor is He imposing a direction beforehand. Allah knows what you will choose, but He is not determing that choice for you, nor is He imposing a choice upon you. 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 11:27pm
S.A. you said:
>>>Allah is not determining nor is He imposing a direction beforehand. Allah knows what you will choose, but He is not determing that choice for you, nor is He imposing a choice upon you. <<<<
 
It doesn't matter if God didn't determine my actions, what matters is God knows! If we believe god is All-Knowing that means his knowledge encompasses past, present and future all at once. If the future has not happened yet here, it has already happened in God's mind. God knows the sequence of events in the future and although he is "allowing" us to fulfill these actions on our own will so to speak, our actions have already been finalized in the future in God's mind. In other words, since God knows I'll sin at 10:00am even though he is letting me continue in my behavior until that time, he still knows what the end result of my actions even before I complete it  before 10am.
 
Because God knows my future I am not free. Whether I got to hell or heaven my life has already been set in God's mind. Since God does not change within himself, it is impossible to necessitate that I'm free to change my life.
 
 


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by Israfil

S.A. you said:
>>>Allah is not determining nor is He imposing a direction beforehand. Allah knows what you will choose, but He is not determing that choice for you, nor is He imposing a choice upon you. <<<<
 
It doesn't matter if God didn't determine my actions, what matters is God knows! If we believe god is All-Knowing that means his knowledge encompasses past, present and future all at once. If the future has not happened yet here, it has already happened in God's mind. God knows the sequence of events in the future and although he is "allowing" us to fulfill these actions on our own will so to speak, our actions have already been finalized in the future in God's mind. In other words, since God knows I'll sin at 10:00am even though he is letting me continue in my behavior until that time, he still knows what the end result of my actions even before I complete it  before 10am.
 
Because God knows my future I am not free. Whether I got to hell or heaven my life has already been set in God's mind. Since God does not change within himself, it is impossible to necessitate that I'm free to change my life.
 
 
 
You are assuming that God's mind is like our mind. We do not know this, nor can we assume how God perceives time: past, present or future.  What is the future to you may not be so to God. 
 
Besides, I still do not see how God knowing negates your act of choosing. YOU still have to choose, even if it is only in your own mind. You have to make that choice, good or bad, right or wrong, evil or rightousness.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 12:05am
Ar-Ra'd (The Thunder)

13:11 For each (such person) there are (angels) in succession, before and behind him: They guard him by command of Allah. Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls). But when (once) Allah willeth a people's punishment, there can be no turning it back, nor will they find, besides Him, any to protect.

Al-Kahf (The Cave)

18:29 Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject (it): for the wrong-doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a couch to recline on!

Ash-Shura (The Consultation)

42:30 Whatever misfortune happens to you, is because on the things your hands have wrought, and for many (of them) He grants forgiveness.



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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 9:41am
"You are assuming that God's mind is like our mind."
 
This statement negates the assertion that God is "All-Knowing" because all knowing is a humanly conceivable trait. S.A. apparently it's difficult for you to get my simple statement...obviously.....I don't see how you don't get it but oh well.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by Israfil

"You are assuming that God's mind is like our mind."
 
This statement negates the assertion that God is "All-Knowing" because all knowing is a humanly conceivable trait. S.A. apparently it's difficult for you to get my simple statement...obviously.....I don't see how you don't get it but oh well.
 
IS:
 
Allah has described His attributes to us in a way that our human minds can comprehend. That does not mean that He is in any way limited to our human comprehension.  
 
I am not really too worried about getting your statement. I am much more concerned with getting Allah's.  Since Allah has stated that we have free will and we will be judged accordingly, this conversation is negligible. It is not my responsibility to try to force you to believe, YOU must CHOOSE to believe.....


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

I am not really too worried about getting your statement. I am much more concerned with getting Allah's.  Since Allah has stated that we have free will and we will be judged accordingly, this conversation is negligible. It is not my responsibility to try to force you to believe, YOU must CHOOSE to believe.....
I don't think anyone is saying that we do not have free will.  What we are saying is that it is logically impossible to believe that we have free will, and also that Allah knows in advance what we will choose.  One or the other is possible, but not both.
 
Omniscient doesn't literally mean all-knowing, any more than omnipotent means all-powerful.  It is impossible for Allah to build a fortress so strong that not even He can breach it, for instance.  (Or if that is possible, then it is impossible for Allah to breach such a fortress.  Take your pick.)  In the same way, it is impossible for Allah to know the choices made by creatures whom He has given free will.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 6:39pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

I am not really too worried about getting your statement. I am much more concerned with getting Allah's.  Since Allah has stated that we have free will and we will be judged accordingly, this conversation is negligible. It is not my responsibility to try to force you to believe, YOU must CHOOSE to believe.....
I don't think anyone is saying that we do not have free will.  What we are saying is that it is logically impossible to believe that we have free will, and also that Allah knows in advance what we will choose.  One or the other is possible, but not both.
 
Omniscient doesn't literally mean all-knowing, any more than omnipotent means all-powerful.  It is impossible for Allah to build a fortress so strong that not even He can breach it, for instance.  (Or if that is possible, then it is impossible for Allah to breach such a fortress.  Take your pick.)  In the same way, it is impossible for Allah to know the choices made by creatures whom He has given free will.
 
Ronn,
 
In philosophy a way around that problem (God creating a rock so big he cannot lift) is that it would remain illogical for God creating a rock to 'lift' as lifting requires one to have 'arms' to exert energy to do such an action. Because God is not depenedent upon having external extremities (since, according to Islamic theology God is without form anyway) it would be nonsense to have such a scenario.
 
I have to disagree with the following analysis: I don't think anyone is saying that we do not have free will.
 
I'm saying that we do not have freewill. I'm not free to live if I jump off a 1,000 feet building and land on the ground because such actions would consequently end my life therefore I do not do it. The consequences, not the actions itself, thus render us limited. Freedom as I define it, is absolute and without restriction.
 
In essence if you believe God exists, and you believe in a Heaven and Hell we are not free to sin because consequently, the end will be devastating for us therefore I am not free spiritually to sin against God nor to sin against my soul. Although we may act in opposition to what is morally right, our actions in temporality (e.g. our time as of now) can have consquences in the future which may effect us. If we look at our biology for instance I am NOT free to be without thirst because my body depends on water. I am also NOT free to consciously  stop breathing for a really long period of time without suffering consequences because my hypothalamus is programmed to tell my cardiovascular system to breathe.
 
With all being said, we all are not free but act within a limited space called reality. Although our actions are autonomous we can only act within the provided space. I make indepdendent actions synonymous with driving on afreeway if any of you have driven on one-L.A is the worse!
 
I may drive on a clear road but the road is only clear insofar as there is not another vehicle hinfdering my path. I may change lanes and may turns on the freeway but my ability to manuever and drive is clear insofar as there is a path for me. The same with actions. Going back to my original analogy it is said that god allows us to sin but our ability to sin exist because there is a limited opportunity to sin such as infidelity. I may cheat on my wife but that possibility is there only if the resources are there.
 
S.A. It's funny you say you don't care whether you understand because I've never made the claim that God never said we didn't have freewill. It is important for you as well as myself to understand each other. I honestly think you don't even know what you're talking about or have enough knowledge on Islamic theology. Those of us who have spent time studying it understand and even Ronn Webb, a non-Muslim who don't even know me can understand my point why can't you?
 
Here is why you (shausta's Aunt) are not making sense:
 
1) Choice does not necessitate freedom
 
-If I'm locked in a room do I have a choice to leave?
 
-If I'm robbed with a gun to my head and told if I move I'm dead do I have a choice to resist? Of course we do, but most of the time we do NOT make the choice because of risk being killed. the consequence (or FEAR) of death would render us incapable of moving.
 
-In a so-called Islamic state, do I have a choice to defile the Holy Qur'an in front of Muslim clerics? I may have a choice to do this but the consequence would result in either death or being locked up.
 
Choices do not necessitate freedom it means we have options, but consequences of certain actions render us limited in ability to act upon our impulses thus restraining our will to act. That means WE ARE NOT FREE!!!!!!!
 
 


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 29 April 2008 at 7:47pm
Well, Israfil, it seems that we mean different things by "free will".  What you call "free will" I would call "omnipotence".
 
Of course our choices are constrained by a number of things, including the desire to avoid unpleasant consequences (e.g., that sudden stop at the bottom of a thousand foot cliff) as well as the realities of physics and biology.  The only being not so constrained is God, which is why we call Him omnipotent.
 
By "free will" I mean the ability to choose anything at all.  The choice of stepping forward with my right foot first, or with my left foot, is a simple choice.  If I am free to choose that, then I have at least some free will.  If, on the other hand, God has already determined which foot I will put forward first (because He knows in perfect detail how my brain works, knows what previous influences have been stored in my memory, etc.), then I am simply an automaton, preprogrammed by God.  And if that is so, then God, and God alone, is responsible for what I do.  My "choices" are not choices at all, but simply the playing out of behaviours according to God's design.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 7:40am
"I'm saying that we do not have freewill.....I honestly think you don't even know what you're talking about or have enough knowledge on Islamic theology...... WE ARE NOT FREE!!!!!!!"
 
So, you are repudiating the Word of Allah? Which Islamic theology have you studied that would allow you to do so, and please bring forth the daleel(proof) of what you are saying.
 
I have shown you verses from The Quran stating that we do in fact have free will and will be judged by Allah accordingly. Now you show me the verses from The Quran which state otherwise.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 30 April 2008 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

"I'm saying that we do not have freewill.....I honestly think you don't even know what you're talking about or have enough knowledge on Islamic theology...... WE ARE NOT FREE!!!!!!!"
 
So, you are repudiating the Word of Allah? Which Islamic theology have you studied that would allow you to do so, and please bring forth the daleel(proof) of what you are saying.
 
I have shown you verses from The Quran stating that we do in fact have free will and will be judged by Allah accordingly. Now you show me the verses from The Quran which state otherwise.
 
I'm not repudiating anything. I've shown you demonstrative proof regarding Freewill. I made an observation based off your reasons why I do not think you have a foundational knowledge of Islamic theology. Your dialetical argument's have no foundational proof. Even if you shown me verses you have not provided a detailed explanation as to how they support your argument. This is the reason why I don't copy and paste Quranic verses because I am for one, not proficient in the Arabic language and two, it would be an injustice to being to interpret The word of God.
 
My arguments stem from God's attributes. Despite our constant battle on stating that God is byond our attributes we still have an idea of what he is and is not thus comprehending his attributes anyway. I mentioned before that God knows past, present, and future.
 
Since God already knows what I will do in the future in detail, in a sphere or realm of God's mind I cannot comprehend, someonehow, in God's infinite wisdom I've already performed the act because God knew I would.  What I meant by not free I'm referring to actions not being independent of God. Actions that are not independent of God are not free.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:26am
"I'm not repudiating anything. I've shown you demonstrative proof regarding Freewill. I made an observation based off your reasons why I do not think you have a foundational knowledge of Islamic theology. Your dialetical argument's have no foundational proof. Even if you shown me verses you have not provided a detailed explanation as to how they support your argument. This is the reason why I don't copy and paste Quranic verses because I am for one, not proficient in the Arabic language and two, it would be an injustice to being to interpret The word of God."
 
Did you mean dialogical or dialectical?  I'm afraid I don't recognise dialetical.
 
You do not have to interpret God's Word, He has made it quite clear that man has free will and will be judged accordingly. The entire Quran is a testament to this. If not, why would we even need the Quran to guide us?  Guidance in itself infers that we may choose another way.
 
I do like to quote The Quran. I  find that it answers all of my questions in a way that "philosophy" or other psuedo-intellectual schools of thought or their followers, just cannot do.  For the most part The Quran is very self explanatory. If you read The Quran you will see this to be the case. A detailed explanation is not necessary, just a teeny tiny bit of common sense. The foundational proof is The Quran itself, the Word of God.
 
If The Quran states:
 
42:15 Now then, for that (reason), call (them to the Faith), and stand steadfast as thou art commanded, nor follow thou their vain desires; but say: "I believe in the Book which Allah has sent down; and I am commanded to judge justly between you. Allah is our Lord and your Lord: for us (is the responsibility for) our deeds, and for you for your deeds. There is no contention between us and you. Allah will bring us together, and to Him is (our) Final Goal.
 
do you really need someone to explain that Allah is allowing man to choose his own path and be held responsible for his own deeds?
 
In the following Ayat you see that man has the choice of belief or disbelief, of doing good deeds or not, and Allah will reward everyone accordingly.
 
4:173 But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them.
 
Here we see that man is free to accept or reject the signs that Allah has given, and will be rewarded accordingly.
 
7:147 Those who reject Our signs and the meeting in the Hereafter,- vain are their deeds: Can they expect to be rewarded except as they have wrought?
 
And this is very clear, if Allah had wanted He could have willed all of mankind to believe, but He gave us the choice... we have to choose to believe.
 
13:31 If there were a Qur'an with which mountains were moved, or the earth were cloven asunder, or the dead were made to speak, (this would be the one!) But, truly, the command is with Allah in all things! Do not the Believers know, that, had Allah (so) willed, He could have guided all mankind (to the right)? But the Unbelievers,- never will disaster cease to seize them for their (ill) deeds, or to settle close to their homes, until the promise of Allah come to pass, for, verily, Allah will not fail in His promise.
 
How can you reject faith if you have no choice in the matter?
 
31:23 But if any reject Faith, let not his rejection grieve thee: to Us is their return, and We shall tell them the truth of their deeds: for Allah knows well all that is in (men's) hearts.
 
Here a clear choice, rejection or belief, and the recompense for the choice you make:
 
35:7 For those who reject Allah, is a terrible Penalty: but for those who believe and work righteous deeds, is Forgiveness, and a magnificent Reward.
 
Do I really need to go on? I am afraid that God's Word must trump your demonstrative proof in this matter. However, if you cannot accept the Word of God as foundational proof then...
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:52am
"I made an observation based off your reasons why I do not think you have a foundational knowledge of Islamic theology."
 
BTW: I am still curious as to which school of Islamic theology you are an adherent and the daleel within this theology that would allow you to conclude that despite the Word of God in The Quran man does not have free will.
Daleel is usually The Quran or an authentic Hadith. I know that you do not like to cut and paste from The Quran, I am not sure if you feel the same about the Hadith, so feel free to list the Surah and Ayat number or the number of the Hadith by book: The Fiqh us-Sunnah, etc... I will be more than happy to look them up on my own.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 4:24pm
The problem with all your quotes, Auntie, is that none of them show that we have a true choice.  They show that some people will believe and behave righteously, and some will reject Allah and commit sins, and Allah will reward or punish them accordingly; but who made them believers or skeptics, and thus determined what choices they will make?
 
In fact, one of your quotes makes my point exactly: Do not the Believers know, that, had Allah (so) willed, He could have guided all mankind (to the right)?  It is Allah, not mankind, who decides whether to guide us to the right or the wrong.  Or so it could be interpreted, anyway.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

The problem with all your quotes, Auntie, is that none of them show that we have a true choice.  They show that some people will believe and behave righteously, and some will reject Allah and commit sins, and Allah will reward or punish them accordingly; but who made them believers or skeptics, and thus determined what choices they will make?
 
In fact, one of your quotes makes my point exactly: Do not the Believers know, that, had Allah (so) willed, He could have guided all mankind (to the right)?  It is Allah, not mankind, who decides whether to guide us to the right or the wrong.  Or so it could be interpreted, anyway.
 
Well, if some people will believe and some will reject then they are clearly given the choice to do so.  Allah is not making them believers or skeptics as you so kindly pointed out: Do not the Believers know, that, had Allah (so) willed, He could have guided all mankind (to the right)? 
 
Allah gave us the freedom to choose right or wrong, if He had willed it otherwise He could have done so and then as you have said we would all be automatons. 
 
Do you believe that some outside force has made you a skeptic and is even at this moment putting thoughts into your head? That you do not have the intelligence or moral compass to choose right from wrong? That you have no personal responsibilty for your actions? Do you believe that what you believe is what YOU believe, or are you being forced to believe it? 
 
At some point you have to realise that you have intelligence, an internal moral compass, the ability to judge right from wrong, and personal responsibility for the choices you make. If you have no cognizant realisation of these facts you are probably a sociopath or worse... 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Well, if some people will believe and some will reject then they are clearly given the choice to do so.
 
That is not clear at all.  Some computers run Microsoft Windows and some do not.  This isn't a "choice" -- it's how they were designed.
 
Do you believe that some outside force has made you a skeptic and is even at this moment putting thoughts into your head? That you do not have the intelligence or moral compass to choose right from wrong? That you have no personal responsibilty for your actions? Do you believe that what you believe is what YOU believe, or are you being forced to believe it? 
 
I believe that I was fortunate enough to have been born to parents who encouraged me to think for myself and to explore beliefs other than their own.  If I had been born to Muslim parents in a repressive Muslim society, I have no doubt that I would have become a devout Muslim myself, and the ideas that I currently believe would have been anathema to me.
 
At some point you have to realise that you have intelligence, an internal moral compass, the ability to judge right from wrong, and personal responsibility for the choices you make. If you have no cognizant realisation of these facts you are probably a sociopath or worse... 
 
That internal moral compass, and the standards by which I judge right from wrong, were placed in my head by others and/or developed as a result of circumstances that I have observed or experienced in the past.  I'm sure a Muslim who commits terrorism also has a moral compass, which points in a very different direction from my own.  To him, he is virtue personified while I am probably a sociopath or worse.  This is the way he and I are both made.  We did not choose to be who we are.  *****
 
Let me state again, for the record: I too believe in free will.  However, I recognize that I am not a "blank slate", that in some respects my choices are at least partly predetermined and influenced by externalities; and I can understand the point of view that sees free will as completely illusory.


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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 4:08am
I believe that there is neither absolute free will nor absolute predetermination but something in the middle. However, I have to say that Allah's prior knowledge of our actions would not necessitate that we are whether free or not at all. The fact that Allah swt is all-knowing doesn’t prove any of them.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 7:55am
I think people believe what they want to believe.  If you want to believe that you are a victim of external influences and not completely in charge of the decisions you make that is your choice.  I have seen too many people rise above circumstances that are truly horrific to believe this myself.
 
To compare human free will to computer programming is rather a stretch. The programmers don't punish the computers for running the programs they installed. 
I do not believe for one minute that God "designed" some people to be disbelievers and then punishes them for disbelieving.
God has clearly stated that you will be punished for what your own hands have wrought, not what you are preprogrammed to do.
 
I can honestly say that little of what I believe to be right or wrong was put into my head by others, and I thank God for that almost daily. I am quite happy to have an independent mind and the ability to judge for myself. This is what led me to Islam, where I can be as repressed and controlled as I so choose.
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Farooqui
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 9:40am
...don't we all have a choice but just find ourselves at different starting points? (The distance to the shore may vary but we might be carried by the same wave) 
"...Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)." 42:13
 
So the choice is for us to turn to God initially and thereby deserving His guidance.
 


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The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of the self. (Bukhari)


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by myahya

I believe that there is neither absolute free will nor absolute predetermination but something in the middle. However, I have to say that Allah's prior knowledge of our actions would not necessitate that we are whether free or not at all. The fact that Allah swt is all-knowing doesn’t prove any of them.
 
There are some things that are predetermined: where and when we will be born, who our parents will be, when we will die. That we are born on the earth and subject to Allah's laws of nature...  The very fact that Allah did not give us a choice about having free will to begin with.  But these are external factors.
 
The choices that we make within the confines of these external factors are all ours to make.  If we are born into poverty we can choose to let it defeat us or we can choose to rise above it. Perhaps not monetarily, but with our spirit.  The same with a handicap, etc...
 
The old saying: you can't control what other people will do, only your reaction to it, is appropo here. We can't control the external factors that Allah has given us, but we can control our reactions to them.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Farooqui

...don't we all have a choice but just find ourselves at different starting points?  
So is it just a wild coincidence that the vast majority of Muslims had Muslim parents, and the vast majority of Christians come from Christian families, etc.?  You don't see any empirical evidence that people's beliefs (religious and otherwise) are strongly influenced by their upbringing?


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 10:40pm
I'll be responding shortly give me a sec


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:04am
Originally posted by believer

 
Matthew 15
1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2"Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"

 3Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
 8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
      but their hearts are far from me.
 9They worship me in vain;
      their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

 10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen and understand. 11What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Matthew 19
 Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
 
Jesus as sinless being came to magnify, or fill completely full, the meaning of God's law.
 
You missed the point- 12The law is not based on faith;
 
"Falling short of the law leads to death. At this we diverge from all other religions on earth. Do you realize that according to just these two scriptures not only are we cursed, but so are all religions that depend upon living up to the law? Because they depend on obeying the law for salvation – whether God’s law or any other law – they are cursed."
 
Hello. Believer
 
I wrote the following on another site and append it below for your reading pleasure. We must remember that Jesus used Tu Quoque and never gave a straight answer to anything. We find him doing that very often. There was nothing bad in doing that. He used to irritate his adversaries. Please enjoy the following. Hope you like it. It is no use quoting a few verses. I prefer reading an entire section.
 
Let us look at the following from Matthew 15. This is an important passage written but extremely misinterpreted by Christians and allows them to eat anything, thus breaking the Law of food permitted, which in turn, meant disobeying the Law of God Almighty.

Quote:
Matthew 15

1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus (B)from Jerusalem and said,

2"Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

3And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

4"For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'

5"But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"

6he is not to honor his father or his mother[a].' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

7"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

10After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, "Hear and understand.

11"It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

12Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?"

13But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.

14"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

The Heart of Man
15Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us."
16Jesus said, "Are you still lacking in understanding also?

17"Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated?

18"But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.

19"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

20"These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."


The question asked by the Pharisees was: "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

That was the question and finally, the answer was "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man."

In other words, Jesus said it was okay to eat with unwashed or dirty hands.

Did the Pharisees ask,"Is everything lawful for your disciples/followers to eat? No such question was asked. The question had nothing to do with getting permission to eat non-kosher or haram food or unlawful food.

Jesus' message was to talk properly, kindly, nicely and politely as harsh and dirty words coming out of the mouth of a person, could be filthier than the food that was eliminated.

Even Peter could not understand. And what happened after that? All food became lawful. Instead of an iota, an entire "I" of the Law was changed due to overzealous reporting by the gospel writer and the misinterpretation . Rolling%20Eyes

Let us also take a look at this, which the disciples, Paul and other founders of Christianity forgot to remember. I have made the fonts to appear in dark blue:


7"You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
9'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

Isaiah's prophecy came true through the lips of Jesus, when various doctrines such as trinity, hypostatic union and incarnation came up through the percepts of men. Did they not?

BMZ



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Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:19am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Why is it a false statement?   Both religions study the same book, that book being the Old Testament.  The fact that Christians also study another book (the new Testament) does not make the first statement untrue.
 
Hi Ron,
 
The Jews only read and recite the Jewish Holy Scriptures. They do not even read the Septuagint aka LXX and they do NOT read the Christians' Old Testament (OT) which is the first part of the Christian Bible. This is confirmed.
 
I have read the Christians' Old Testament and the Jewish Holy Scriptures from Alpha to Omega of both. There are differences. If you read the Jewish Holy Scriptures and the Christians' OT in parallel, you will easily spot the differences and the changes made, to show Jesus in the Jewish Scriptures.
 
I will give you one example: Psalm 2:10-12 From the Christians' OT
 
10 Therefore, you kings, be wise;
       be warned, you rulers of the earth.

 11 Serve the LORD with fear
       and rejoice with trembling.

 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry
       and you be destroyed in your way,
       for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
       Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

If you read Psalm 2:10-12 in the Jewish Holy Scriptures, you will NOT find,
"Kiss the Son" mentioned at all.
 
Cheers
BMZ


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Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 6:35pm

Going down the list of responses.

So, you are repudiating the Word of Allah? Which Islamic theology have you studied that would allow you to do so, and please bring forth the daleel(proof) of what you are saying.
 
Who is sounding like the psuedo-intellectual here? I wouldn't even qualify you as an interpreter of Quranic text let alone can actually disprove what I am saying. I gave you several points of why we do not have freewill which you have yet to refute. I do not follow any school of thought or any fiqh if you were wondering.
 
Did you mean dialogical or dialectical?  I'm afraid I don't recognise dialetical.
 
Dialetical is a philosophical term which means to make an arguement without concrete demonstration. Quoting the Qur'an is not demonstrative proof unless you interpret into a framework which is demonstrative. This means not quote something verbatum and then say you have refuted my position. That is dialetical.
 
You do not have to interpret God's Word, He has made it quite clear that man has free will and will be judged accordingly.
 
Obviously there things in God's word that aren't clear. For instance many schoalrs interpret several spheres of action which designates man's ability to act.
 
The concept of qadar used in the Qur’an means a measure or the latent possibilities with which Allah (God) created human beings and all things of nature.....
http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=islam&cdn=religion&tm=5&gps=136_119_1020_619&f=00&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.islam-online.net/english/in_depth/islamintro/Belief/Destiny/article01.shtml - http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=islam&cdn=religion&tm=5&gps=136_119_1020_619&f=00&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.islam-online.net/english/in_depth/islamintro/Belief/Destiny/article01.shtml
 
If God created "possibilities" for us then he creates those limited possibilities to which man can act, therefore our actions are NOT determined but are limited hence are not free. Freedom does not mean the will to act in one instance and not another, but to act however and whenever.
 
If Allah says believe I am ONE and I will reward you and NOT believe in me as One I will punish you is (if choice is made) not an independent choice but contingent upon the possible penalty of suffering in Hell or lounging in paradise. If I choose to believe in God solely because I'm afraid of Hell I am not making an independent choice but a choice based upon the hereafter. Again S.A. Your proofs fail. Not by the Qur'an but your inability to interpret the Qur'an.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 03 May 2008 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Farooqui

...don't we all have a choice but just find ourselves at different starting points?  
So is it just a wild coincidence that the vast majority of Muslims had Muslim parents, and the vast majority of Christians come from Christian families, etc.?  You don't see any empirical evidence that people's beliefs (religious and otherwise) are strongly influenced by their upbringing?
 
There are many people born into a faith who do not understand or follow it. How many Christians actually follow the Christian faith?  Just as there are many Muslims who do things because it is custom, not because they understand the reasoning behind it. 
 
But look how many who are born into one faith and choose another....


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 9:17am
Originally posted by BMZ

I have read the Christians' Old Testament and the Jewish Holy Scriptures from Alpha to Omega of both. There are differences. If you read the Jewish Holy Scriptures and the Christians' OT in parallel, you will easily spot the differences and the changes made, to show Jesus in the Jewish Scriptures.
 
Yes, there are differences.  There are numerous variants of both the Old and New Testaments.  There are whole books within the Bible that are recognized by some denominations (Catholic versus Protestant, for instance) and not by others.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible  for a summary of the differences.
 
Nevertheless, those books that the various faiths have in common are obviously different editions of the same books, from the same original sources.  That is what the Quran means.  It should also be noted that the Quran does not use the word "same".  That is an interpolation provided by some (but not all) translators.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

[There are many people born into a faith who do not understand or follow it. How many Christians actually follow the Christian faith?  Just as there are many Muslims who do things because it is custom, not because they understand the reasoning behind it.
 
I think most people who are born into a faith but don't follow it are children of parents who similarly don't follow their faith. 
 
But look how many who are born into one faith and choose another....
 
Not nearly as many as those who simply inherit their faith.  Look at it this way: what are the odds that a child born to an even nominally Christian family in the United States will become a Muslim?  Hint: less than 1% of the Americans are Muslim, so even if every one of those was born to a Christian family that's still very low odds.
 
Conversely, what are the odds that a child born to a Muslim family in Saudi Arabia will become a Christian?  Another hint: apostacy is illegal in Saudi Arabia and punishable by death.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:08am
Originally posted by Israfil

Going down the list of responses.

So, you are repudiating the Word of Allah? Which Islamic theology have you studied that would allow you to do so, and please bring forth the daleel(proof) of what you are saying.
 
Who is sounding like the psuedo-intellectual here? I wouldn't even qualify you as an interpreter of Quranic text let alone can actually disprove what I am saying. I gave you several points of why we do not have freewill which you have yet to refute. I do not follow any school of thought or any fiqh if you were wondering.
 
Did you mean dialogical or dialectical?  I'm afraid I don't recognise dialetical.
 
Dialetical is a philosophical term which means to make an arguement without concrete demonstration. Quoting the Qur'an is not demonstrative proof unless you interpret into a framework which is demonstrative. This means not quote something verbatum and then say you have refuted my position. That is dialetical.
 
You do not have to interpret God's Word, He has made it quite clear that man has free will and will be judged accordingly.
 
Obviously there things in God's word that aren't clear. For instance many schoalrs interpret several spheres of action which designates man's ability to act.
 
The concept of qadar used in the Qur’an means a measure or the latent possibilities with which Allah (God) created human beings and all things of nature.....
http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=islam&cdn=religion&tm=5&gps=136_119_1020_619&f=00&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.islam-online.net/english/in_depth/islamintro/Belief/Destiny/article01.shtml - http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=islam&cdn=religion&tm=5&gps=136_119_1020_619&f=00&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.islam-online.net/english/in_depth/islamintro/Belief/Destiny/article01.shtml
 
If God created "possibilities" for us then he creates those limited possibilities to which man can act, therefore our actions are NOT determined but are limited hence are not free. Freedom does not mean the will to act in one instance and not another, but to act however and whenever.
 
If Allah says believe I am ONE and I will reward you and NOT believe in me as One I will punish you is (if choice is made) not an independent choice but contingent upon the possible penalty of suffering in Hell or lounging in paradise. If I choose to believe in God solely because I'm afraid of Hell I am not making an independent choice but a choice based upon the hereafter. Again S.A. Your proofs fail. Not by the Qur'an but your inability to interpret the Qur'an.
 
But you are still choosing, whatever your reasoning. If you don't grasp that not so subtle point at this juncture then you probably never will.
 
Yes. there are things in God's Word that are not clear and God points them out saying that man will never know the meaning of these things. However, judgement based upon our choices is not one of these things. This is a recurrent theme common among all of God's Messengers, Prophets, and Sacred Texts. It honestly can't get much clearer. 
 
I think you mean dialectical not dialetical....

dialectical

< name=entry =/dictionary method=post>2 entries found.

< =:.entry.submit() size=2 name=jump> < ed>dialectical<>dialectical materialism


Main Entry:
di·a·lec·ti·cal javascript:popWin%28/cgi-bin/audio.pl?dialec05.wav=dialectical%29">Listen%20to%20the%20pronunciation%20of%20dialectical
Pronunciation:
\ˌdī-ə-ˈlek-ti-kəl\
Variant(s):
also di·a·lec·tic javascript:popWin%28/cgi-bin/audio.pl?dialec06.wav=dialectic%29">Listen%20to%20the%20pronunciation%20of%20dialectic \-tik\
Function:
adjective
Date:
1548
1 a: of, relating to, or in accordance with http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialectic - dialectic <dialectical method> b: practicing, devoted to, or employing http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialectic - dialectic <a dialectical philosopher>2: of, relating to, or characteristic of a http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dialect - dialect
di·a·lec·ti·cal·ly javascript:popWin%28/cgi-bin/audio.pl?dialec07.wav=dialectically%29">Listen%20to%20the%20pronunciation%20of%20dialectically \-ti-k(ə-)lē\ adverb
 
Gee, I remember stating in my earlier post that we act within a sphere of God's creation and are limited to God's Laws within that creation. You are just taking my words and changing them up. Not extremely original.  You have yet to bring the daleel that we do not have free will to choose right from wrong, to believe or disbelieve.  I do not have to refute you musings. Allah has said that we have the ability to choose and He will judge us accordingly. The fact that you continue to argue against this makes me question your sincerity.  There is a point beyond which one goes from questioning something because they truly do not understand to almost mocking the belief. 
 
This MIGHT help you.....
http://www.islamicity.com/qa/action.lasso.asp?-db=services&-lay=Ask&-op=eq&number=11627&-format=detailpop.shtml&-find - http://www.islamicity.com/qa/action.lasso.asp?-db=services&-lay=Ask&-op=eq&number=11627&-format=detailpop.shtml&-find
 
As for qualifying to interpret Quran, most concepts in the Quran are so simple a child can understand. It was revealed as a guidance and mercy for ALL of mankind, those with a simple intellect and those who are a tad sharper. You might actually learn something from reading the Quran in it's simplicity. The ability to choose right from wrong,  those things which Allah has made clear with clear signs and warnings, the Islamic perspective on homosexuality..... 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 12:13am
IS:
This is from the article link that you posted to refudiate what I have been saying. Sound familiar???   Thank you for pasting a link to an artcle that backs up everything that I have said, almost verbatim.   
 
 
"From an Islamic point of view, human beings are free for all practical purposes. A person has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or destiny, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn’t expect a miracle!

We should not worry about what Allah has written for us, since we can never know it. But our duty is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, if Allah wills.

As for the question of whether humans are predestined to enter Paradise or Hell, we must remember that Allah transcends the limits of time. He is All-Knowing of the past, present and future. Thus He knows in advance which path — good or evil — each individual will choose and what will be his or her final destination — Paradise or Hell. But such knowledge does not mean that He makes each person choose a certain path."



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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 5:02am
BMZ - Let's start another thread on this. I feel like we would be getting in the middle of another discussion then were the others are going.
 
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 9:54am
Firs toff in the last part of your previous comment what does homosexuality have to do with anything? I've clearly stated in the other thread that it is not a matter of choice, if you want to argue your point there then do so but I found the end part of you rcomment not relevant here...
 
As far as the daleel you are looking for I don't have time to look up word for word to refute your point.
 
Ithe major fallacies I see in your argument is saying god is All-knowing yet state he transcends our knowledge of him. this doesn't make sense because it is obvious we comprehend what "All-knowing" is yet in the same context you say we don't know what All-knowing is because it is not our definition. It is either he is All-knowing in the context we understand or not.
 
If God is All-knowing and knows past, present, and future and knows our destination before we do it is PROBLEMATIC on will. This doesn't take into account the biological, environmental and other external limitations God has set for us, but the metaphysical is definitely important here. Like I said, free action is action without limitation (which means independent of any external forces) and if God already knows I will sin at 10:00am I am only fulfilling in our world, what God knows. I have repeated this several times
 
You ask How does God knowing necessitate our lack of Freewill.....
 
If God is the designer of the universe he knows when, why, and how it will operate. Prior to the universe's existence he knew he would create a universe and knew its qualities and knew that in this solar system Earth would be the destination in which he would show life forms his wonderous works. God's foreknowledge of events itself have determined what will be. He knows who will be in heaven and hell before it actually happens in our 'time' so regardless of what I do on this earth God already knows my destination.
 
Many scholars say well only sincere prayer can mediate what happens in the future is also fallacious because that means God's mind can change when it is law which is also problematic for doctrinal faiths. The reason being is because we can say that God's laws are not concrete but can be subject to change as God wills and if this is true then there is no concrete standard of divine law since, ultimately, it is up to God. Personally I find the latter to be true.
 
I don't think i personally choose something if God already knows what the effect is. True, God may not personally act upon my behalf but the fact that god knows the end result means I've already perform the action in God's mind so how are my actions Free? I'm still limited by God knowing them because of his knowledge. In addition to this problem is intervention.
 
since you brought up homsexuality let's look at it this way. Since it is indeed proven to be innate and not choice, much like heterosexuality, if god finds homsexuality to be a sin why not intervene and stop this innate feeling? Or why even design it? It doesn't seem smart for a deity to create what he hates and then commands people to stop this 'innate' feeling. So if it is not choice and if god cares and loves us why not violate his own law of so-called freewill and intervene? Either way there is no freedom so by God intervening it wouldn't make a difference. So many questions.
 
 


Posted By: peacemaker
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 10:46am
Everyone,
 
It is very important to comply with guidelines. And in religious matters, you must bring evidence to confirm your statements, please. 


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Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

IS:
This is from the article link that you posted to refudiate what I have been saying. Sound familiar???   Thank you for pasting a link to an artcle that backs up everything that I have said, almost verbatim.   
 
 
"From an Islamic point of view, human beings are free for all practical purposes. A person has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or destiny, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn’t expect a miracle!

We should not worry about what Allah has written for us, since we can never know it. But our duty is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, if Allah wills.

As for the question of whether humans are predestined to enter Paradise or Hell, we must remember that Allah transcends the limits of time. He is All-Knowing of the past, present and future. Thus He knows in advance which path — good or evil — each individual will choose and what will be his or her final destination — Paradise or Hell. But such knowledge does not mean that He makes each person choose a certain path."

 
The above is not MY argument. Once again, this is an excerpt of the article link that YOU posted to repudiate my argument. So now, you are arguing against the article that you quoted to repudiate my original argument....


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 10:55pm
"Since it is indeed proven to be innate and not choice, "
 
This has not been proven. In fact, Rice, Risch, and Ebers all concluded that the X-linkage theory put forth by Hamer could not be proven and their studies in fact found the opposite.  Since these studies have been the most progressive using human genetyping, there is absolutely no evidence that homosexuality is innate.
 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 9:51pm
I will respond shortly


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 6:12am
Originally posted by believer

BMZ - Let's start another thread on this. I feel like we would be getting in the middle of another discussion then were the others are going.
 
 
 
Yes and welcome, but please go slow as I write on many sites, mostly hostile to Islam and the Muslims.  Smile
 
BMZ


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Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 10:32pm
S.A. since it is impossible for you to understand my philosophical approach, we'll discuss the issue from the Quranic approach. I will also address your previous comment regarding the weblink and excerpt you have posted.
 
The following are surah's I've highlighted for discussion:
 
(1) Nor can a soul die except by Allah’s leave, the term being fixed as by writing. If any do desire a reward in this life, We shall give it to him; and if any do desire a reward in the Hereafter, We shall give it to him. And swiftly shall We reward those that (serve us with) gratitude. S. 3:145 
(2) Say: For myself I have no power to benefit, nor power to hurt, save that which Allah willeth. Had I knowledge of the Unseen, I should have abundance of wealth, and adversity would not touch me. I am but a warner, and a bearer of good tidings unto folk who believe. S. 7:188 
 Allah Predestines the Fate of Every Soul.
 
 (3) The guiding of them is not thy duty (O Muhammad), but Allah guideth whom He will. And whatsoever good thing ye spend, it is for yourselves, when ye spend not save in search of Allah's Countenance; and whatsoever good thing ye spend, it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged. S. 2:272
 
  Allah Predestines Our Wills 

(4) “Unto whomsoever of you willeth to walk straight. And ye will not, unless (it be) that Allah willeth, the Lord of Creation.” S. 81:28-29 

As we see in example (1) bodies which extinguish e.g. death do not die except by Allah's leave. All sentient beings which exist and move and breathe and extinguish do so by God's own knowledge. this point is followed by God's will in point (2). Although I am aware that scholars have divided the philosophy of predestination into several spheres i personally wanted to address the problem of attributes as this would relate to the problem.

When we say "God is All-knowing" it is obvious we are discussing God's knowledge being the maximum comprehensive capcity. What this means is that God knows everything basically. If God knows everything then he knows our past (our past which is the path which we didn't exist prior to our existence) our present (our existence from birth to present) and our future (that which will happen that hasn't). This has become problematic and to support this allow me to present the following Hadith narration:

Abu al-Aswad reported that ‘Imran b Husain asked him: What is your view, what the people do today in the world, and strive for, is it something decreed for them or preordained for them or will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teaching which they did not act upon? I said: Of course, it is something which is predetermined for them and preordained for them. He (further) said: Then, would it not be an injustice (to punish them)? I felt greatly disturbed because of that, and said: Everything is created by Allah and lies in His Power. He would not be questioned as to what He does, but they would be questioned; thereupon he said to me: May Allah have mercy upon you, I did not mean to ask you but for testing your intelligence. Two men of the tribe of Muzaina came to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion that the people do in the world and strive for, is something decreed for them; something preordained for them and will their fate in the Hereafter be determined by the fact that their Prophets brought them teachings which they did not act upon. And thus they became deserving of punishment? Thereupon, he said: Of course, it happens as it is decreed by Destiny and preordained for them, and this view is confirmed by this verse of the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious: “Consider the soul and Him Who made it perfect, then breathed into it its sin and its piety” (xci. 8). (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6406)

Also the following:
 
Allah's Apostle, the truthful and truly-inspired, said, “Each one of you collected in the womb of his mother for forty days, and then turns into a clot for an equal period (of forty days) and turns into a piece of flesh for a similar period (of forty days) and then Allah sends an angel and orders him to write four things, i.e., his provision, his age, and whether he will be of the wretched or the blessed (in the Hereafter). Then the soul is breathed into him. And by Allah, a person among you (or a man) may do deeds of the people of the Fire till there is only a cubit or an arm-breadth distance between him and the Fire, but then that writing (which Allah has ordered the angel to write) precedes, and he does the deeds of the people of Paradise and enters it; and a man may do the deeds of the people of Paradise till there is only a cubit or two between him and Paradise, and then that writing precedes and he does the deeds of the people of the Fire and enters it.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 77, Number 593) 
As you can see according to the hadiths God has already preordained our duties whether we know them or not. In my view, Freedom is our ignorance of the future because although we seem to act without proviocation accept from our own will, we are still fulfilling what has been preordained before us. Actions cannot be independent of God because God has established the "stage" for our ability to act.
 
A scholar once said:
 

Risaleh-i-Barkhavi says:  

“Not only can He do anything, He actually is the only One Who does anything. When a man writes, it is Allah who has created in his mind the will to write. Allah at the same time gives the power to write, then brings about the motion of the hand and the pen and the appearance upon paper. All other things are passive, Allah alone is active.”  


 
     


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 10:50pm

The article within the link I posted was meant to discuss qadar.

Now, if you read my words carefully I was discussing the concept of Qadar and the fact that we act in limited fashion. But my question is how can freedom als have limited involvement? If we are limited how are we free? I'm taking god's knowledge out of the equation for a moment here and discuss absolute freedom. But first, let us define what freedom is:
 
If in fact we are free then there is no limitation on will. If there is limitatiom then we are not free. See the following:
 
 

freedom

1.the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action
 
2. unrestricted
 
3. liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another.
 
Physical laws and their limitations are a given so we ALL know that physically we are not free to do anything. Whereas laws of action and inaction (non-physical laws) are more comprehensive. As the article states if you "punch a brick wall and complain that it hurts you cannot blame it on Qadar becaus you are conscious of the wall."
 
I would agree with the person here that we do act. But I am critiquing the point of view that such action is considered free. Certain actions are acutalized by compulsion as well and if this is true are those actions free? Someone who calls themself an exhibitionist but is compelled to have "sexual intercourse" openly (there are studies on this but let us assume this is hypothetical) are they free? In our eyes the causality of their action is the result of some form of deliberation which in this case a type of conscious effort. However, the problem here lies in what actually caused  the behavior. One may argue that it is not compulsion but deliberation. This too is another problem of freedom along with the attributes.
 
Truly, if possible, we can say freedom is extended to all persons regardless of their biological makeup. I wonder, if such is true then individuals who are mentally defective are they free? I hope you can dwell on these questions.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 1:35am

IS:

First, what is written in The Quran will always hold prominence over the Ahadith. You can look at the Ahadith in light of The Quran, but if something in the Ahadith is not in line with The Quran then you should follow The Quran.
 
The fact that Allah knows what will happen before it happens is not the same as Allah deciding what will happen.
Knowing the future is not the same as creating the future.
You may think that because Allah knows what you are going to do it will cause you to do it, but rather your actions are not caused by Allah's knowledge but Allah's knowledge is of your choices. He did not make these choices for you, nor did He cause you to make them.   

Allah has clearly stated in The Quran that man will be judged according to what choices he makes. If you read the context and Ayats of the verses you yourself posted you will see that even these support this. 

"every soul will have what it has earned and it will be held responsible only for its own doing." Al Baqarah 2:286 
 
This is an excellent excerpt:
 
"But there is no need to go to such extremes, since it is not difficult to reconcile Divine qadar (predestination) and human responsibility. Allah decided to create man as a free agent, but He knows (and how can He not know!) before creating every man how he is going to use his free will; what, for instance, his reaction would be when a Prophet clarifies Allah’s message to him. This foreknowledge and its registering in a ‘Book’ is called qadar.

“But if we are free to use our will” a Qadari might say, “we may use it in ways that contradict Allah’s will, and in that case we would not be right in claiming that everything is willed or decreed by Allah.”

The Qur’an answers this question by reminding us that it was Allah who willed that we shall be of free will, and it is He who allows us to use our will. Allah, Most High, says, “Lo! This is an Admonishment, that whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord. Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.” (Al-Insan: 29-30)

“If so,” a Qadari might say, “He could have prevented us from doing evil."

Yes indeed He could. Allah says, “Had Allah willed, He would have brought them all together to the guidance; if thy Lord had willed whoever is in the earth would have believed, all of them, all together.” (Yunus: 99) “Had Allah willed, they were not idolaters; and We have not appointed thee a watcher over them neither art thou their guardian.” (Al-An`am: 107)

But Allah has willed that men shall be free especially in regard to matters of belief and disbelief. Allah Almighty says, “Say: The truth is from your Lord; so let whosoever will believe, and let whosoever will disbelieve.” (Al-Kahf: 29)

But men would not be so free if whenever any of them wills to do evil Allah prevents him from doing it and compels him to do good.

“If our actions are willed by Allah,” someone might say, “then they are in fact His actions.”

This objection is based on a confusion that Allah wills what we will in the sense of granting us the will to choose and enabling us to execute that will, i.e., He creates all that makes it possible for us to do it. He does not will it in the sense of doing it, otherwise it would be quite in order to say, when we drink or eat or sleep for instance that Allah performed these actions. Allah creates them, He does not do or perform them." (Based on Dr. Ja`far Sheikh Idris’s article “Belief in Qadar”. (Source: http://isgkc.org/pillars_qadar.htm).
 
Since Allah has stated that every soul will be held responsible for its own doing then you must either believe that or believe:
 
1. Allah is not being truthful when He states that man will be judged according to what his own hand has wrought
 
2. That Allah is not Just and Merciful because He is rewarding and punishing people for something that they had no control over   


-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 2:44am
Israfil,
 
I'm curious. You say that homosexuality is innate and natural and still manage to believe in a God who destroyed a nation for that very reason. What does that mean? Was God wrong about Sodom? Had I that doubt, that's good reason for me to not believe in that God.
 
I can add one more to your example of the prevalence of homosexuality in the animal kingdom (or so as you say). Male chimps stimulating each other sexually, due to the absence  of female chimps, as I read in some Wildlife site. We also find some chimps engaging in cannibalism. If we are to take points from that, perhaps Dahmer wasnt as sick as we thought he was, huh?
 
 
 


-------------
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 11:39am
The fact that Allah knows what will happen before it happens is not the same as Allah deciding what will happen.
 
I believ I made that distinction already. I made it clear in several posts back that although God is not personally directing my actions.
 
You may think that because Allah knows what you are going to do it will cause you to do it, but rather your actions are not caused by Allah's knowledge but Allah's knowledge is of your choices. He did not make these choices for you, nor did He cause you to make them.   
 
Agreed. The problem (as I've already explained in several posts back) here is God is the ultimate causality of things although he is not direct in individual actions he is the cause of all actions. I believe we all can agree on this. We can also agree on the belief that prior to all the universe's inhabitants existence (notice I'm including any other life forms that we are not aware of) he knew what the universe was and how it is and what will transpire in both the particulars and the general.
 
With that said, since his knowledge is broad because prior to our existence there was our what we in philosophy call our potentiality (means the area in which we are coming into existence) he knew what we we are and what we will do in the future. As I mentioned although we at a specific time didn' exist yet God knew what we would become in the future and our spiritual destination would be. This is the problem I have.
 
God already knows my destiny before I know. I cannot change my destiny because all the actions that I perform only fulfill what God knows. Although I may act "freely" I am not acting free because God's knowledge precedes my action. I understand S.A. it is hard for you to understand but this makes perfect sense. God doesn't need to act or violate my freewill in order for me to be limited. The fact that (1) God is the first cause and (2) God has knowledge of past, present and future, makes this problematic.
 
Because God is (1) it is impossible to say that which caused is independent of God since all causes are caused by (1) mover that which is God. What this means is although God may remain inactive independently from us, his will through us causes us to act. This will is our ability to act. God has given us the will to act independently. For instance if I create a computer program to only calculate multiplication in less than .1 seconds that is what it will do until I design another ability within it. Although me being a human I cannot complete certain multiplications in less than .1 this computer has that ability, but because the computer can do this ability faster than I it doesn't necessarily mean that I can calculate this fast. Of course this is somewhat comparable to the discussion I cannot make the computer designer analagous to God/human action. But from this example you should get my point.
 
 
Since Allah has stated that every soul will be held responsible for its own doing then you must either believe that or believe:
 
1. Allah is not being truthful when He states that man will be judged according to what his own hand has wrought
 
2. That Allah is not Just and Merciful because He is rewarding and punishing people for something that they had no control over  
 
Shausta you are making this too easy.....
 
If I were a god, and couldn't be held accountable to my own laws (because I'm infinite and the first cause of all things) I could easily manipulate laws in which inhabitants whom I've created and designed would only be held accountable to those laws. The greatest thing about God is he doesn't have to be held accountable to laws which he has designed (not saying I believe this to the extreme but this is a critique to the questions you posted) so even if he has created the will in us to act even to do good things he cannot be held accountable for the laws which he designed specifically for humans.
 
What I believe is God has given us a limited amount of space to act (this is not freedom of course) and although our moral conscience and our religious duties is what gets us closer to God I believe that what we do in this life is already determined apriori. I realize on the Day of Judgement I cannot say "well God, you did know I was gonna cheat with 100 prostitutes and kill 100 people" of course I am held accountable because at some point I am conscious of my actions. But even with this in mind this raises anothe rproblem. If God knew I'd kill 100 people why would he cause me to exist in the first place?
 
As you can see the discussion on predestination and freewill takes several turns not just in the problem of freedom but morality and ethics as well.
 
Israfil,
 
I'm curious. You say that homosexuality is innate and natural and still manage to believe in a God who destroyed a nation for that very reason. What does that mean? Was God wrong about Sodom? Had I that doubt, that's good reason for me to not believe in that God.
 
I am at a point where these questions which has no relevance to the thread should not even be said much less addressed by me. What does you question (Saladin) have to do with our discussion? What does that mean? Well. I don't know God wiped out people for specifically for their sexual orientation? I particularly don't believe he destroyed an entire race of people simply because they are gay I'm sure there was more to it than that. The people in Lot's time could have done some really bad things I don't know. But I believe God is just wiping a whole people out simply because of their sexual orientation is an unbelievable act. If I truly felt this way then I would cease to believe in any Abrahamic deity.
 
 I can add one more to your example of the prevalence of homosexuality in the animal kingdom (or so as you say). Male chimps stimulating each other sexually, due to the absence  of female chimps, as I read in some Wildlife site. We also find some chimps engaging in cannibalism. If we are to take points from that, perhaps Dahmer wasnt as sick as we thought he was, huh?
 
Humans are a sick species. We kill, torture and murder people just for pleasure! That is scary. And yes in some sectors of the world humans eat other humans too. This is why we are not different from other creatures especially chimps since as biologist have mapped out over 90% of our genes are linked to chimps. As far as Jeffrey Dahmer he was just  sick psychologically because he was a psychopath. It is weird even for some murders to eat their victim. Of course this is off topic.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by Israfil

The fact that Allah knows what will happen before it happens is not the same as Allah deciding what will happen.
 
I believ I made that distinction already. I made it clear in several posts back that although God is not personally directing my actions.
 
You may think that because Allah knows what you are going to do it will cause you to do it, but rather your actions are not caused by Allah's knowledge but Allah's knowledge is of your choices. He did not make these choices for you, nor did He cause you to make them.   
 
Agreed. The problem (as I've already explained in several posts back) here is God is the ultimate causality of things although he is not direct in individual actions he is the cause of all actions. I believe we all can agree on this. We can also agree on the belief that prior to all the universe's inhabitants existence (notice I'm including any other life forms that we are not aware of) he knew what the universe was and how it is and what will transpire in both the particulars and the general.
 
With that said, since his knowledge is broad because prior to our existence there was our what we in philosophy call our potentiality (means the area in which we are coming into existence) he knew what we we are and what we will do in the future. As I mentioned although we at a specific time didn' exist yet God knew what we would become in the future and our spiritual destination would be. This is the problem I have.
 
God already knows my destiny before I know. I cannot change my destiny because all the actions that I perform only fulfill what God knows. Although I may act "freely" I am not acting free because God's knowledge precedes my action. I understand S.A. it is hard for you to understand but this makes perfect sense. God doesn't need to act or violate my freewill in order for me to be limited. The fact that (1) God is the first cause and (2) God has knowledge of past, present and future, makes this problematic.
 
Because God is (1) it is impossible to say that which caused is independent of God since all causes are caused by (1) mover that which is God. What this means is although God may remain inactive independently from us, his will through us causes us to act. This will is our ability to act. God has given us the will to act independently. For instance if I create a computer program to only calculate multiplication in less than .1 seconds that is what it will do until I design another ability within it. Although me being a human I cannot complete certain multiplications in less than .1 this computer has that ability, but because the computer can do this ability faster than I it doesn't necessarily mean that I can calculate this fast. Of course this is somewhat comparable to the discussion I cannot make the computer designer analagous to God/human action. But from this example you should get my point.
 
 
Since Allah has stated that every soul will be held responsible for its own doing then you must either believe that or believe:
 
1. Allah is not being truthful when He states that man will be judged according to what his own hand has wrought
 
2. That Allah is not Just and Merciful because He is rewarding and punishing people for something that they had no control over  
 
Shausta you are making this too easy.....
 
If I were a god, and couldn't be held accountable to my own laws (because I'm infinite and the first cause of all things) I could easily manipulate laws in which inhabitants whom I've created and designed would only be held accountable to those laws. The greatest thing about God is he doesn't have to be held accountable to laws which he has designed (not saying I believe this to the extreme but this is a critique to the questions you posted) so even if he has created the will in us to act even to do good things he cannot be held accountable for the laws which he designed specifically for humans.
 
What I believe is God has given us a limited amount of space to act (this is not freedom of course) and although our moral conscience and our religious duties is what gets us closer to God I believe that what we do in this life is already determined apriori. I realize on the Day of Judgement I cannot say "well God, you did know I was gonna cheat with 100 prostitutes and kill 100 people" of course I am held accountable because at some point I am conscious of my actions. But even with this in mind this raises anothe rproblem. If God knew I'd kill 100 people why would he cause me to exist in the first place?
 
As you can see the discussion on predestination and freewill takes several turns not just in the problem of freedom but morality and ethics as well.
 
Israfil,
 
I'm curious. You say that homosexuality is innate and natural and still manage to believe in a God who destroyed a nation for that very reason. What does that mean? Was God wrong about Sodom? Had I that doubt, that's good reason for me to not believe in that God.
 
I am at a point where these questions which has no relevance to the thread should not even be said much less addressed by me. What does you question (Saladin) have to do with our discussion? What does that mean? Well. I don't know God wiped out people for specifically for their sexual orientation? I particularly don't believe he destroyed an entire race of people simply because they are gay I'm sure there was more to it than that. The people in Lot's time could have done some really bad things I don't know. But I believe God is just wiping a whole people out simply because of their sexual orientation is an unbelievable act. If I truly felt this way then I would cease to believe in any Abrahamic deity.
 
 I can add one more to your example of the prevalence of homosexuality in the animal kingdom (or so as you say). Male chimps stimulating each other sexually, due to the absence  of female chimps, as I read in some Wildlife site. We also find some chimps engaging in cannibalism. If we are to take points from that, perhaps Dahmer wasnt as sick as we thought he was, huh?
 
Humans are a sick species. We kill, torture and murder people just for pleasure! That is scary. And yes in some sectors of the world humans eat other humans too. This is why we are not different from other creatures especially chimps since as biologist have mapped out over 90% of our genes are linked to chimps. As far as Jeffrey Dahmer he was just  sick psychologically because he was a psychopath. It is weird even for some murders to eat their victim. Of course this is off topic. 
 
 
I am totally baffled by your response. Who has said that God is being held accountable for anything?
 
And, you actually did state in a few posts that we have no freedom of will, and quoted that man is passive Allah is responsible for all action....
 
God is not the cause of our actions, He is associated with our actions. There is a huge difference. God created me, the earthly environment I live in and gave me the freedom to choose my path, thus He is associated with my choices through His creation, but God does not cause me to choose the right path or the wrong path. I choose. 
 
Anyway, you have your belief and I have mine.


-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 11:05pm

S.A you have greatly misunderstood AGAIN and tried to systematically explain to you what I mean. Anyway we've exhausted this long enough




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