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tell me where I'm wrong

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12232
Printed Date: 22 December 2014 at 2:49pm


Topic: tell me where I'm wrong
Posted By: jusaskin
Subject: tell me where I'm wrong
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 2:49pm

My purpose for presently being in this forum is to introduce one of my inquisitive grandsons to Islam, and for myself to learn more of your religion from, what I assumed to be, ordinary everyday Muslims. I can read the Quran, Hadith, and various books about Islam, but I wanted to hear Muslims discuss their beliefs among themselves and with others of different faiths, especially Christians. I have formed some opinions and would like a quick check before I leave the forum. Please tell me where you think I am wrong.

Christianity and Islam cannot come to a common understanding of the Creator. For a Christian, Jesus is the second person of the triune God, who became man in order to die on a Roman cross as a sacrifice for all of humanity. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are what Christians know to be one God, in a unity that is unique to human understanding.

Muslims will never accept those beliefs because they are specifically refuted in the Quran. When there is disagreement about anything, their interpretation of the Quran is the final word because it is supposed to have been sent for that purpose.

The Quran is reported to be in it's original Arabic wording exactly as received by Muhammad from the angel Gabriel, and is therefore believed to be a reliable reference when compared to the scriptures of Christians who must rely on translations of the original works, believed to have been corrupted over time.

A Christian will never accept the Quran's description of Jesus. If he does he ceases to be a Christian.

A Muslim will never accept the words of the Bible when they do not agree with their understanding of the Quran.

For either a Christian or a Muslim to accept the other's understanding of one God requires them to deny their own faith.

Having come to these conclusions, it seems pointless to ask further questions. I am willing to hear opinions on why my conclusions are wrong, but otherwise I feel that I am wasting my time and yours. However, I'd like to sincerely thank all those who were willing to discuss these things with me in the various posts

. Thank you!


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joe



Replies:
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by jusaskin



My response is in color

My purpose for presently being in this forum is to introduce one of my inquisitive grandsons to Islam, and for myself to learn more of your religion from, what I assumed to be, ordinary everyday Muslims. I can read the Quran, Hadith, and various books about Islam, but I wanted to hear Muslims discuss their beliefs among themselves and with others of different faiths, especially Christians. I have formed some opinions and would like a quick check before I leave the forum. Please tell me where you think I am wrong.

Christianity and Islam cannot come to a common understanding of the Creator. For a Christian, Jesus is the second person of the triune God, who became man in order to die on a Roman cross as a sacrifice for all of humanity. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are what Christians know to be one God, in a unity that is unique to human understanding.

What about the humanity that passed before Jesus even all the Allah(God) prophets likes of Abraham(as) are they left in the left field?

( It is an old Trintarianism been around way before Christianity )

From the earliest ages, the concept of the Great Goddess was a trinity and the model for all subsequent trinities, female, male or mixed.  Anatolian villages in the 7th millennium B.C. worshipped a Goddess in three aspects – as a young woman, a birth-giving matron, and an old woman.  (See, Merlin Stone, When God Was A Woman at 17). 

This typical Virgin-Mother-Crone combination was Parvati-Durga-Uma (Kali) in India, Ana-Babd-Macha (the Morrigan) in Iceland, or in Greece Hebe-Hera-Hecate, the three Moerae, the three Gorgons, the three Graeae, the three Horae, etc.  Among the Vikins, the threefold Goddess appeared as the Norns; among the Romans, as the Fates or Fortunae; among the Druids, as Diana Triformis.  The Triple Goddess had more than three: she had hundreds of forms.

Pre-Roman Latium worshipped her as the Capitoline Triad under the collective name of Uni, “The One,” a cognate of yoni.  Her three personae were Juventas the Virgin, Juno the Mother, and Menarva or Minerva the wise Crone.  Under the empire, Juventas was ousted to make room for a masculine member of the trinity, Jupiter.  (See, Georges Dumezil, Archaic Roman Religion at 116). 

Some modern scholars refer to the two-female, one-male Capitoline Triad of the later period as “three gods” – as if they might describe a group of two women and one man as “three men.”  (See, J.B. Carter, The Religious Life of Ancient Rome at 26).

 
Cumont says, “Oriental theologians developed the idea that the world forms a trinity; it is three in one and one in three.”  (See, Franz Cumont, Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans at 69).

The masculine scholar substitutes the neuter “world” for “Goddess,” though they were in a sense synonymous.  It was she who established the Trinitarian form of Creator, Preserver, and Destroyer.  Even though Brahmans evolved a male trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva to play these parts, Tantric scriptures insisted that the Triple Goddess had created these three gods in the first place.  (See, Amaury de Riencourt, Sex and Power in History at 167).

Mother of the Greek gods was a trinity composed of Virgin Hebe, Mother Hera, and Crone Hecate; at Stymphalus she was worshipped as Child, Bride, and Widow.  (See, Robert Graves, The Greek Myths at 1, 52).

Each of her personae could be a trinity again, so she could be the Muses or the Ninefold Goddess.  Hecate was called Triformis and shown with three faces, each a lunar phase.  Among the Irish she was the Triple Morrigan, or Morgan, sometimes multiplied into “nine sisters” who kept the Cauldron of Regeneration and ruled the western isle of the dead.  (See, Robert Graves, The White Goddess at 406; Alwyn & Brinely Rees, Celtic Heritage at 193).

The Goddess Triformis ruled heaven as Virgin, earth as Mother, and the underworld as Crone, or Hel, or Queen of the Shades.  This was remembered even in Chaucer’s time, for his Palamon invoked her “Three Forms,” Luna in heaven, Diana on earth, Proserpine in hell.  (See, Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales at 81, 511).  The old name of Sicily, Trinacria, invoked her as a “center of the earth” with three realms.

 
Bardic romances abounded in manifestations of the Triple Goddess.  Wayland the Smith married her, after she first appeared to him as three magic doves.  (See, Thomas Keightley, The World Guide to Gnomes, Fairies, Elves and Other Little People at 215)  King Arthur went to Avalon with her.  The triadic Guinevere was another version of her.  Sir Marhaus (Mars) encountered her as the Three Damosels at their magic fountain: the eldest “threesome winters of age, wearing a garland of gold; the second thirty winters of age, wearing a circlet of gold; the youngest fifteen winters of age, wearing a wreath of flowers.”  (See, Sir Thomas Malory, Le Morte d’Arthur at 1, 115).  Fifteen was the number of the pagan Virgin Kore, the pentacle in the apple.  Mythic virgin mothers, like that of Zoroaster, typically gave birth at the age of fifteen.  Double that was the Mother’s age, double again the age of the Crone.

 

The notion of a trinity appeared during the 14th century B.C., a popular Babylonian trinity was composed of Shamash, Sin, and Ishtar – Sun, Moon, and Star.  In Greece this was repeated as Helios the sun, Selene the Moon, and Aphrodite the star.  A Father-Mother-Son trinity was worshipped at Costopitum as Jupiter Dolichenus, Celestial Brigantia and Salus.  (See, Jack Lindsay, The Origins of Astrology at 112, 328, 375; Dorothy Norman, The Hero at 71).

 Gnostic versions of the trinity followed the Father-Mother-Son patterns of the contemporary east, with the Holy Ghost recognized as a female Sophia, the Dove, worshipped as the Great Goddess in Constantinople, and viewed by most Gnostics as the Shakti of God.  The Christian God was originally modeled on Far-Eastern heaven-fathers such as Brahma and Dyaus Pitar, all of whom needed their female sources of “Power,” or else they could not act.  (See, Heinrich Zimmer, Myths and Symbols in Indian Art and Civilization at 25) 

Therefore, a female member of the triad was essential even to God.  Among Arabian Christians there was apparently a holy trinity of God, Mary, and Jesus, worshipped as an interchangeable replacement for the Egyptian trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus.  (See, Geoffrey Ashe, The Virgin at 206).

 During the Christian era, all-male trinities became popular among Germanic tribes.  Woden, Thor, and Saxnot were worshipped together by the Saxons of the 8th and 9th centuries.  Norsemen called them Odin, Tyr, and Frey.  According to a certain fragmentary myth, the Triple Goddess seems to have burned as a witch.  She had to be burned to ashes three times.  Afterward, youth, beauty, and love in the person of Freya departed from Asgard; and there was war in heaven.  (See, Brian Branston, Gods of the North at 112, 213-14).



Muslims will never accept those beliefs because they are specifically refuted in the Quran. When there is disagreement about anything, their interpretation of the Quran is the final word because it is supposed to have been sent for that purpose.

The Quran is reported to be in it's original Arabic wording exactly as received by Muhammad from the angel Gabriel, and is therefore believed to be a reliable reference when compared to the scriptures of Christians who must rely on translations of the original works, believed to have been corrupted over time.

Before you compare with Muslims you need to do the same with Jews cuz OT make the first half of  the Bible. It will be quite enlightening !
If you can't convince them how can you ask the Muslims to agree to the concept of the old Trinitarian belief system?

A Christian will never accept the Quran's description of Jesus. If he does he ceases to be a Christian.

A Muslim will never accept the words of the Bible when they do not agree with their understanding of the Quran.

For either a Christian or a Muslim to accept the other's understanding of one God requires them to deny their own faith.

2:113 And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.

Having come to these conclusions, it seems pointless to ask further questions. I am willing to hear opinions on why my conclusions are wrong, but otherwise I feel that I am wasting my time and yours. However, I'd like to sincerely thank all those who were willing to discuss these things with me in the various posts

. Thank you!


You are welcome!

This is an inter faith section as a Muslim one should know one guiding principle :
 
29:46 And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 6:57pm
"Muslims will never accept those beliefs because they are specifically refuted in the Quran. When there is disagreement about anything, their interpretation of the Quran is the final word because it is supposed to have been sent for that purpose."
 
Muslims do not accept this belief, not only because it is refuted in the Quran, but because the very notion of the Trinity implies that God is not monotheistic.  This belief was also held by the followers of the Abrahamic religion until the advent of Saul, who taught that Jesus was divine, and the Council of Nicea who made God a Trinity to explain how Jesus and the Holy Spirit could be divine.
 
Jesus did not teach the doctrine of the Trinity, nor did any Prophet who came before him.


-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 10:03pm

Hi Joe,

 

Welcome to the discussions, from me, a non-Muslim guest.

 
I wouldn’t presume to tell you where you are wrong, as your thread title states, but I might simply rather ask what you were expecting from inter-faith dialogue?  Of course, with rare exceptions, all sides are at best doctrinally intransigent.  I mean, after all, it is religion that is being for the most part discussed and that has an epistemology all its own

 

However much the Muslims might at times seem to like to erect a firewall between themselves and Christians, it might interest you to know that, at one point in their history, early on, when Muslims were besieged by their enemies and a contingent had crossed the Red Sea to seek and obtain the protection of the (probably monophysite) Christian King of Abyssinia (Ethiopia), this is what reportedly transpired:

"The [Christian} King welcomed them [the Muslims] and promised to protect them from their enemies. In the royal presence a question was put to them: “What do you say concerning Jesus?” The spokesman for the group replied, “concerning Jesus we can only say what our Prophet has taught us: Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, the spirit and word of God, whom God entrusted to the Virgin Mary.” When the King Negus heard this testimony, he picked up a twig from the ground and said, “I swear, the difference between what we believe about Jesus, the Son of Mary, and what you have said is not greater than the width of this twig.”" [bold emphasis added]

I emphasize (and place in bold) the latter portion of the statement because it is not at all unusual to hear Muslims insist upon the former part, that Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, a fact with which no Christian should disagree, but it is just that, lately, the other part, “the spirit and word of God,” doesn’t seem to get quite as much airplay on the Muslim side.  I think it was that spirt and word part that St. John tried to describe in the prologue to his Gospel.

 

Best regards,

 

Serv

 

Ref: (note: not able to verify the following source, but do seem to recall having read the above letter in the authenticated History of al-Tabari , Muhammad at Mecca.)

 
http://www.rumiforum.org/server/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=70&Itemid=43 - ht


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 1:51am
 The quotation by Servetus is perfectly right. The first part and the later part are all correct. The Muslims have no reason to deny that Jesus was a word from Allah and a spirit from Allah. If the very early Muslims understood it that way, we cannot do any better than what they understood.
 
 This is a fact described in the Quran that Jesus was Kalimah (a word or message or meaningful sentence) from God (given to Mary). It is also described in the Quran that Jesus was a spirit from God.
 
 So, in short, we Muslims believe that Jesus was:
 
 1. Kalimatullah (a word from Allah)
 2. Roohullah, (Spirit from Allah)
 3. Nabi Allah, (Prophet of Allah)
 4. Rasool Allah, (Messenger from Allah)
 5. Ayatullah, ( A sign from Allah) Ch. 19, verse 21
 6. Rehmatullah (Mercy from Allah) 19:21
 7. Abdullah (Servant of Allah) Ch. 19:30.
 8. Mubarak, (Blessed from Allah)
 9. In peace all the time,
 
 But Jesus is not Allah and he is not son of Allah. Not Ibn Allah.
 


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 9:11am
Originally posted by Servetus

"The spokesman for the group replied, “concerning Jesus we can only say what our Prophet has taught us: Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, the spirit and word of God, whom God entrusted to the Virgin Mary.”"

"Virgin" Mary?  I didn't know that Muslims recognized the miracle of the virgin birth.  So who was Jesus' father? Confused


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 9:29am
I want to add a few words here about the concept of the Trinity, because it seems like many Muslims misunderstand it.
 
All Christians believe that there is only one God.  The Trinity represents three different aspects or ways of understanding that one God, not three separate Gods.
 
As an analogy, I am also three "persons": to my wife I am a Husband: to my daughter I am a Father, and to my nephew I am an Uncle.  My wife, my nephew and my daughter think of me and interact with me very differently, but there's really only one of me.
 
In the same way, Jesus is the manifestation of God as a living person, as known to his contemporaries; God the Father is the creator of the universe, who (as I understand it) cannot be directly known by us; and the Holy Spirit is the "Comforter" whom Jesus promised would come after him, and who can be known directly by anyone who has faith.
 
It's not my own personal belief, so I'd be pleased if a Catholic would care to correct me, but that is my understanding of it.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 4:27pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I want to add a few words here about the concept of the Trinity, because it seems like many Muslims misunderstand it.
 
All Christians believe that there is only one God.  The Trinity represents three different aspects or ways of understanding that one God, not three separate Gods.
 
As an analogy, I am also three "persons": to my wife I am a Husband: to my daughter I am a Father, and to my nephew I am an Uncle.  My wife, my nephew and my daughter think of me and interact with me very differently, but there's really only one of me.
 
In the same way, Jesus is the manifestation of God as a living person, as known to his contemporaries; God the Father is the creator of the universe, who (as I understand it) cannot be directly known by us; and the Holy Spirit is the "Comforter" whom Jesus promised would come after him, and who can be known directly by anyone who has faith.
 
It's not my own personal belief, so I'd be pleased if a Catholic would care to correct me, but that is my understanding of it.
 
However you try to describe the Trinity, you are still taking three separate entities and making them equal to God.


-------------
“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Servetus

"The spokesman for the group replied, “concerning Jesus we can only say what our Prophet has taught us: Jesus is the servant and messenger of God, the spirit and word of God, whom God entrusted to the Virgin Mary.”"

"Virgin" Mary?  I didn't know that Muslims recognized the miracle of the virgin birth.  So who was Jesus' father? Confused
 
Jesus doesn't have a "father".  Allah said "BE" and Jesus was.  


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 4:43pm
3:59 The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.   (Al-Imran)

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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 6:16pm
Ron:
Who was Dolly the sheep's father?




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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 7:50pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

However you try to describe the Trinity, you are still taking three separate entities and making them equal to God.
Not separate entities.  The same entity, different manifestations.  If my analogy of family relationships was unclear, try thinking egg, larva, chrysalis, butterfly.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Ron:
Who was Dolly the sheep's father?
Genetically, Dolly had the same mother and father as the sheep from which she was cloned.  But Jesus could not have been a clone of Mary because they were different sexes.  Jesus must have got at least some of his DNA (e.g., his Y chromosome) from someone else, some man.


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 8:10pm

 

Serv,

what you were expecting from inter-faith dialogue?

As I stated earlier, I was interested in the everyday conversations between Muslims, and especially between Muslims and Christians, in a non-professional setting. One can always pick up the various Scriptures, books written about Islam and Christianity, or find any number of "learned" opinions on the subject, but I wanted to talk/listen to "real" Muslims. The idea was to get another point of view (or not).

We (grandson and I) have heard enough for now. Perhaps there may be questions later, but for now it's time to mull over what we have obtained.

But I think it's best said by Peter (I'll reference Peter since many Muslims disdain Paul) as he recalls an earlier revelation concerning Jesus (1 Peter, Chapter 2): "... it is contained in Scripture, behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious; and he that believes on him shall not be put to shame.  For you therefore that believe is the preciousness, but for those who disbelieve, the stone which the builders rejected, the same was made the head of the corner, and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, for they stumble at the word, being disobedient, where unto also they were appointed."



-------------
joe


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 9:36pm
If Allah who could create Adam from clay, and Eve from Adam why would have problems making Jesus out of Mary?

Christian have some faith to talk about!

Why would Allah's word not take care of the chromosome/DNA issue?

Either you have the faith in the power of Allah's creation or your Roman / Greek mythological mentality towers above it!

 Which is it? Can't have it both ways! Do you doubt the His dominion of creation?


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 2:47am
Auzubillahi Minash Shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
>For either a Christian or a Muslim to accept the other's understanding of one God requires them to deny their own faith.<
 
This is the most striking point I found in your above post. Absolutely. Accounts of some reverts from cristianity who I have read had a reason to disbelieve in their own faith.
 
Whenever we talk about faith, we should allow logic to take rest, and illumination of heart to preside over ... only then it is called belief or faith! What is percieved by mind is not always that which is necessarily settled in the heart ...
 
hope some of it makes sense.
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:11am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

However you try to describe the Trinity, you are still taking three separate entities and making them equal to God.
Not separate entities.  The same entity, different manifestations.  If my analogy of family relationships was unclear, try thinking egg, larva, chrysalis, butterfly.
 
What about the ever popular water, ice, evaporation?
 
The problem with these analogies is that these might be different aspects of one entity, but they are not three entities in one. 
 
Egg, larva, etc... is evolution of one entity. You do not have a separate egg, larva, chrysalis, and butterfly that somehow all form one being.  The egg evolves to the larva state which in turns evolves, etc...
 
You may be husband, father, and uncle, but you are not three Rons fulfilling these roles. You are one Ron in three different situations.
 
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate entities.  If not, then how was Jesus filled with the Holy Spirit and to whom was he praying when he prayed to the Father? "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."  Was he speaking to himself?  


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:33am
Don't you think a person can understand what another believes, but they don't have to accept it?
 
I have a good grasp of many religions, but I don't agree. 
 
Actually the butterfly is a good example of Jesus and ressurection.
 
I have used this one before -Air or water, you can separate some out all that is on the earth and put it in a container but it is still the air or water.
 
In the case of water the larger mass controls the level the water will seek- water towers and pressure.
 
In the case of the air in say a ballon, if the size of a ballon was not limited the outside air pressure allows the ballon to expand to just a certain point.
 
Equal componenets, make-up, but the one follows the "will" of the other.
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 8:56am

The years go by, the twig grows up, and now, after all these years, the Christian King of Abyssinia stands pointing at a redwood tree, a giant sequoia, and says to the Islamic delegate before him:

 

I swear, the difference between what we believe about Jesus, the Son of Mary, and what you have said is not greater than the height of this twig.”"

 

(This is me in shades: Cool  )

 

Serv



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by jusaskin

My purpose for presently being in this forum is to introduce one of my inquisitive grandsons to Islam, and for myself to learn more of your religion from, what I assumed to be, ordinary everyday Muslims. I can read the Quran, Hadith, and various books about Islam, but I wanted to hear Muslims discuss their beliefs among themselves and with others of different faiths, especially Christians. I have formed some opinions and would like a quick check before I leave the forum. Please tell me where you think I am wrong.

Christianity and Islam cannot come to a common understanding of the Creator. For a Christian, Jesus is the second person of the triune God, who became man in order to die on a Roman cross as a sacrifice for all of humanity. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are what Christians know to be one God, in a unity that is unique to human understanding.

Muslims will never accept those beliefs because they are specifically refuted in the Quran. When there is disagreement about anything, their interpretation of the Quran is the final word because it is supposed to have been sent for that purpose.

The Quran is reported to be in it's original Arabic wording exactly as received by Muhammad from the angel Gabriel, and is therefore believed to be a reliable reference when compared to the scriptures of Christians who must rely on translations of the original works, believed to have been corrupted over time.

A Christian will never accept the Quran's description of Jesus. If he does he ceases to be a Christian.

A Muslim will never accept the words of the Bible when they do not agree with their understanding of the Quran.

For either a Christian or a Muslim to accept the other's understanding of one God requires them to deny their own faith.

Having come to these conclusions, it seems pointless to ask further questions. I am willing to hear opinions on why my conclusions are wrong, but otherwise I feel that I am wasting my time and yours. However, I'd like to sincerely thank all those who were willing to discuss these things with me in the various posts

. Thank you!
 
Hi Joe,
I sense some disappointment from your post, I hope I am wrong. If your purpose to come to this forum was to learn, I hope you have learned something new you did not know about Islam. If your purpose was to share and preach your belief, I still hope you learnt something about your own belief, how others see it.
You wrote "A Muslim will never accept the words of the Bible when they do not agree with their understanding of the Quran."
Joe it is not that way, for a Muslim, the Bible was the word of God. Only after its alteration it is not wht it was before. Thus Quran was revealed and it is the pure word of God. So Muslims only accept the Quran to be the true guidance. We cannot take the word of Bible because:
1- The Quran confirms that it (Bible) was (sent by God but) altered by man.
2- Our study shows and confirms Quran's claim.
It is that honest study and its outcome that have brought many of Christians into Islam.
 
As a Muslim, I can never deny that there is One and Only God. That God does not beget, nor is God begotten. It is the same and Only God worshipped and preached by Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed (pbut).
Last but not least, there is no compromise on facts and truth intentionally when you sign up a car or house deal, why not apply the same principle here! isn't more at risk here than that?
Take care,
Hasan 
 
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

If Allah who could create Adam from clay, and Eve from Adam why would have problems making Jesus out of Mary?
I doubt that you will find many modern Christians who believe that Adam was literally made from clay, or Eve was literally made from Adam's rib, any more than they believe that the world was created in six literal days.
 
I'm not saying that God would have a "problem" creating Jesus out of Mary.  What I'm saying is that if Jesus was a man, then by definition he had a Y chromosome.  That chromosome must have come from somewhere.  If it came from God, then by definition God is his father.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:19pm
Ron,
God creates, not Father his creations. You may need x and y, God does not, what is a miricle for us is nothing more than a word for God, and it is.
God is not made up of x and y like you and me otherwise its not God we are talking about. You seem to be stuck with Christian thinking that God is like  us, a human looking super size man, that has two arms, two blue eyes, blonde hair, and as you said x and y chromosome??
And why would I take anything serious from a book that has proved to  contradict itself in principle?
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:30pm
God does not need a Y chromosome, but a man does, or by definition he is not a man.  Was Jesus a man?


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:40pm
Auzubillahi Minash Shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
When Allah created Adam, there was neither X nor Y to begin with. Nor there were the other 22 pairs of chromosomes.
 
Is it impossible for Allah to create something that does not follow the "laws of nature"  as we created beings know them?
 
Nothing is impossible for Allah. Jesus alaihe salam was a man. He will return, marry and have children like any other man on earth. But he did not have a father, and this is not difficult for Allah.
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:54pm
What are you suggesting, Nausheen?  That Jesus was not biologically a man, but some kind of freak of nature with only the outward appearance of a man?  And what kind of creature was Adam if he did not have human DNA? Confused


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 6:13pm
Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir Rajeem.
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
>>I doubt that you will find many modern Christians who believe that Adam was literally made from clay, or Eve was literally made from Adam's rib, any more than they believe that the world was created in six literal days.<<
 
The good news is that modern Christians cannot change history or facts. All they have been able to change is their perception of them :)
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 6:20pm
Auzubillahi Minash Shaitan ir Rajeem
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
You could not understand my suggestion Ron. All I said was Allah is able to do anything. His power to create is not limited to any rule.
When He wanted to creat man out of clay He was able to do it. When He wanted to create a man without the intervention of another man, He was again able to do it.
 
To believe that Allah needs a set of 23 chromosomes to create a human being means His powers are not limitless or He is in need of anything. Contrary to this He is omnipotent and free of all needs.


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 7:00pm
Nausheen, I have no doubt that God is able to do anything, including creating bizarre creatures that physically resemble humans but do not have human DNA.  What I don't understand is, why would you call such a creature a "man"?
 
I also don't understand why you would think that Adam did not have human DNA.  Do you suppose his sons Cain and Abel did?  Did their sons?  When did human DNA first come into existence?


Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 8:42pm

Hi Ron,

Thank you for enlivening the discussions with your posts. From what I have read, I am enjoying them and I am pleased to meet you.

From my standpoint, I think that the long-absent but fortunately now returned Nausheen's explanation is characteristically brilliant. To my view, which I think is based more upon the logic than the biologic of the situation, it seems no more implausible to say that Jesus was born of a virgin than to say that he had no father. Both statements, it seems to me, are equally absurd. And because both statements are equally absurd, they are, to borrow one of Tertullian's maxims, equally believable. This is his maxim, or credo: "credibile est, quia ineptum est" (a detailed explanation is linked below, but nobody is either asked or necessarily expected to read it).

Best regards,

Serv

Ref: http://www.tertullian.org/articles/sider_credo.htm



Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 9:00pm

Hasan,

I sense some disappointment from your post

It must have leaked through, although it wasn't meant to. Some questions went unanswered and some replies were typical rants, but for the most part I enjoyed the discussions.

If your purpose was to share and preach your belief, I still hope you learnt something about your own belief, how others see it.

It was not my intent to "preach", but I'm always willing to explain when asked. As for learning more about how others see Christianity ..... always! It's a nice side benefit of asking others about their religious beliefs.

the Bible was the word of God ... Our study shows and confirms Quran's claim.

From the Christian's perspective, the present day Bible is pegged to many manuscripts written prior to Muhammad, and if it was the word of God then, it is the word of God yet. But I understand how you will believe the Quran if it says the Bible is corrupt. However I would be interested in hearing an elaboration on the studies you refer to? I assume you are speaking of evidence outside the Quran which shows the Bible to be seriously altered.

I can never deny that there is One and Only God

Neither can I.

there is no compromise on facts and truth intentionally when you sign up a car or house deal, why not apply the same principle here

Sounds a bit accusative, but perhaps I don't quite understanding your meaning.



-------------
joe


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 11:53pm
Auzubillahi minash Shaitan ir Rajeem
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
Ron,
here is what has happened ...
 
Allah created man out of clay, and embued him with knowledge of the secrets of heaven and earth. He was such an excellent slave of Allah, that all Angels of the heavens prostrated to him. However one, who was not from them, but was raised in ranks as the crown of angels became jealous.  He thus earned such anger of Allah that he was destined to the fire, though given some respite. This former crown of angels vowed to cause a spiritual mutation in the progeny of his rival - created from clay.
 
Therefore, many of those who we are familiar with are actually the bizzare spiritually mutated form of the human being who Allah created from clay.  These days the angels dont prostrate them, the devils don't envy them, and the secrets of heavens and earth have left them.  They are dazzled by the glamour of this ephimeral world, forgotten about their return to Allah, following the former crown of Angels to his destined end.
 
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:11pm

Nausheen,

I'm interested in your explanations to Ron since it contains items I had not heard before. Would you direct me to the verses in the Quran from which you extracted the following declarations:

 1. "... embued him {man} with knowledge of the secrets of heaven and earth."

2. "He {man} was such an excellent slave of Allah, that all Angels of the heavens prostrated to him."

In this particular one, it sounds as if man "earned" honor from the angels, but I thought the Quran said that God declared that the angels should prostrate themselves.

3. "This former crown of angels vowed to cause a spiritual mutation in the progeny of his rival"

Where is Satan given that title? And that Satan can beguile or tempt is one thing, but to cause seems a bit extreme.

4. "When Allah created Adam, there was neither X nor Y to begin with. Nor there were the other 22 pairs of chromosomes."

I don't mean to bother you with the burden of producing a whole ton of verses; one or two for each item would be sufficient for me to begin further study.



-------------
joe


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 2:45pm
Hi Joe,
good to see you around,
You wrote:
"From the Christian's perspective, the present day Bible is pegged to many manuscripts written prior to Muhammad, and if it was the word of God then, it is the word of God yet. But I understand how you will believe the Quran if it says the Bible is corrupt. However I would be interested in hearing an elaboration on the studies you refer to? I assume you are speaking of evidence outside the Quran which shows the Bible to be seriously altered."
 
Joe, let us put the Quran to a side. I am talking about what claims are associated with the Bible and if the Bible supports them without contradicting theose claims.
So, our study is Bible against Bible.
What I was refering to as I have before that status of God for example is the most important principle in any religion. Followers of the Bible claim that Jesus(pbuh) is God (naozubillah=God forgive) and they base their claim into the Bible. When we study the Bible it shows that Jesus has a God instead, so their claim is dispoved by their own book their own source does not support the very first principle of their belief.
Followers of the Bible claim that Jesus is one of the three persons of God in holy trinity where all three are same and are equal in power. Through our study of the Bible we discovered that Jesus (pbuh) admitted that he has less power and Father is greater than him. He also said, he cannot do anything by himself without power given to him, from above.
Joe, the list goes on, those are some very serious contradictions to the very first fundamantle of a belief. And you know what, I believe that the knower of all never contradicts, nor those who have been sent His inspiration or reveltions. Its people who corrupt and contradict, because they have lost their belief in truth.
Hasan 


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:44pm

Originally posted by honeto

What I was refering to as I have before that status of God for example is the most important principle in any religion. Followers of the Bible claim that Jesus(pbuh) is God (naozubillah=God forgive) and they base their claim into the Bible. When we study the Bible it shows that Jesus has a God instead, so their claim is dispoved by their own book their own source does not support the very first principle of their belief.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Jesus has a God", but I'm guessing you are referring to passages in the Bible where Jesus prays to God.  Well, why wouldn't he?  Jesus was a man, with all the emotional needs of a man.  He would pray for the same reason all of us pray -- for emotional strength, as a source of comfort, a form of meditation, etc.  Moreover, he prayed as an example to others.  The fact that he is praying to himself is ironic but it doesn't prove that they are two different people.

As a husband, I have a joint bank account with my wife.  As a father, I might have a separate account to save for my daughter's education.  (My daughter is all growed up by now, but bear with me.)  It's not strictly necessary to have two separate accounts, but it's a useful formality.  If I need to transfer money from one account to another, I write myself a cheque, withdrawing from the account of "Ron the Husband" and depositing it to the credit of "Ron the Father".  It always feels a bit odd to write a cheque to myself, but it doesn't mean that I am two different people.

In the same way, God the Son can pray to God the Father, and he did.  It may not have been strictly necessary, since the Father already knows what the Son needs before he asks; but then the same is true when we pray too, right?  It's a useful formality, and a comforting ritual.  Jesus was a man, and he suffered as a man would suffer (else what was the point in the whole scenario?).  Would you deny him the comfort of prayer?

Followers of the Bible claim that Jesus is one of the three persons of God in holy trinity where all three are same and are equal in power. Through our study of the Bible we discovered that Jesus (pbuh) admitted that he has less power and Father is greater than him. He also said, he cannot do anything by himself without power given to him, from above.

It's also true that Ron the Father has certain powers that Ron the Husband would never try to wield (I can just imagine the result if I tried to set a curfew for my wife!).  Again, it doesn't show that I am two different people.  It only shows that I perform different roles, and each role has different powers.



Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 7:20pm
Auzubillahi minash Shaitan ir Rajeem
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
 
Originally posted by jusaskin

Nausheen,

I'm interested in your explanations to Ron since it contains items I had not heard before. Would you direct me to the verses in the Quran from which you extracted the following declarations:

 1. "... embued him {man} with knowledge of the secrets of heaven and earth."

2. "He {man} was such an excellent slave of Allah, that all Angels of the heavens prostrated to him."

In this particular one, it sounds as if man "earned" honor from the angels, but I thought the Quran said that God declared that the angels should prostrate themselves.

3. "This former crown of angels vowed to cause a spiritual mutation in the progeny of his rival"

Where is Satan given that title? And that Satan can beguile or tempt is one thing, but to cause seems a bit extreme.

4. "When Allah created Adam, there was neither X nor Y to begin with. Nor there were the other 22 pairs of chromosomes."

I don't mean to bother you with the burden of producing a whole ton of verses; one or two for each item would be sufficient for me to begin further study.

 
Joe, I was not sure anyone would be interested in my blabber, obviously Ron was on a very different page than myself. Anyway, Jazak Allahu Khair for paying some ear to the above ...
 
The story of creation of Adam (alaihe salam) is mention in two or three places,  - surah baqarah, surah miraaj and perhaps surah imraan. I will surly dig the verses for you - please give me some time.
 
Crown of Angels was a metaphor I used, on the basis of information in some hadith liturature that Iblis (now the Satan) was such an ardent slave of Allah, that there is not even a space - the size of a handspan on this earth where he has not prostrated Allah. Through his worship he was raised in ranks and was called  "the peacock" of angels. 
The Quran says (Insha Allah  will get the verses sometime later in the day) when the punishment was pronounced upon him he told Allah he will be miguiding the progeny of Adam leading them to hellfire.
"spiritual mutation" was another metaphor which is purely mine - but I guess you were able to decipher it
 
will get back to you in a couple of hours insha Allah.
 
 


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:00pm
Auzubillahi minash Shaitan ir Rajeem
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim
 
Copying from: http://www.oneummah.net/quran/ - http://www.oneummah.net/quran/  
 
Al-Baqarah (chapter 2)
(28) He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things. (29) And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not. (30) And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful. (31) They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise. (32) He said: O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said: Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide. (33) And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.
 
Al Hijr (Chapter 15)
(27) And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter's clay of black mud altered, (28) So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him. (29) So the angels fell prostrate, all of them together (30) Save Iblis. He refused to be among the prostrate. (31) He said: O Iblis! What aileth thee that thou art not among the prostrate? (32) He said: I am not going to prostrate myself unto a mortal whom Thou hast created out of potter's clay of black mud altered! (33) He said: Then go thou forth from hence, for verily thou art outcast. (34) And lo! the curse shall be upon thee till the Day of Judgment. (35) He said: My Lord! Reprieve me till the day when they are raised. (36) He said: Then lo! thou art of those reprieved (37) Till an appointed time. (38) He said: My Lord! Because Thou hast sent me astray, I verily shall adorn the path of error for them in the earth, and shall mislead them every one, (39) Save such of them as are Thy perfectly devoted slaves. (40) He said: This is a right course incumbent upon Me: (41) Lo! as for My slaves, thou hast no power over any of them save such of the froward as follow thee, (42) And lo! for all such, hell will be the promised place. (43) It hath seven gates, and each gate hath an appointed portion. (44) Lo! those who ward off (evil) are among gardens and watersprings.
 
Al-Araf (chapter 7)
10) And We created you, then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration. (11) He said: What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee? (Iblis) said: I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of mud. (12) He said: Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride here, so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded. (13) He said: Reprieve me till the day when they are raised (from the dead). (14) He said: Lo! thou art of those reprieved. (15) He said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray, verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path. (16) Then I shall come upon them from before them and from behind them and from their right hands and from their left hands, and Thou wilt not find most of them beholden (unto Thee).
 
Joe,
You can find the episode of prostration and pronouncement of Iblis' punishment in the above verses. Also in chapters 3, 17 and 20.
 
In 2:30 - it says the Allah taught him the names ... this is understood as that Allah gave Adam (alaihe salam) the knowledge of many things in heavens and earth, which the angels did not know.
You are correct to understand that the command to prostrate came from Allah - and their prostration was in obediance as well as adoration of Adam (alaihe salam) because obviously, as one can read in chapter 2 he was taught knowledge which even the angels were not aware of.
 
I have also underlined  the verses which tell us that satan vowed to lead mankind astray.
 
However, a subtle point which many of us usually miss is that the misguidance of the devil is not a strong force. The Quran mentions his methods as mere whispering, also says that his plots are weak and that he will not be able to misguide those who are righteous, devout and firm in faith. It is not so worthwhile to pay much attention to shaytan - many of the scholars of spiritual training warn their student of this and remind to make the mention of Allah rather than worrying about the shaytan.
 
Hope this was of some help.
 
nausheen


-------------
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:31pm
Ron you are in black:
I doubt that you will find many modern Christians who believe that Adam was literally made from clay, or Eve was literally made from Adam's rib, any more than they believe that the world was created in six literal days.
 
I'm not saying that God would have a "problem" creating Jesus out of Mary.  What I'm saying is that if Jesus was a man, then by definition he had a Y chromosome.  That chromosome must have come from somewhere.  If it came from God, then by definition God is his father.


LOL  your doubt about the belief of the modern Christens and still being part of the group you would like to be considered believers!
Believers in what ? Modernized old paganism!
Are you one of them that doubt the creation of Adam as per OT?
It proves what has been revealed in Quran that they are but the transgressors; they mislead  themselves and stray from the straight path!
If you do not believe when Allah fashioned Adam, and said be  and he was then what are we talking about?
What is your belief?
If you are the type who would be suggesting that angel that brought word from the creator to Mary brought Y chromosome to conceive then this discussion won't go anywhere fast!
It not uncommon the conflicts about sex in the Christian churches in general and the Christians in particular!
It is by a recent poll like 63% of the Catholics believe the same sex couples should have same legal rights as heterosexual  couples and the abortion should be OKed and the church is "out of touch"! What chance you stand do you have with this kind of behavior who started it all!
That preached celibacy for the preachers -not that it made any sense- and then ends up in hock with a law suit by 5000 kids sexual abuse cases with payoff amounting to 2.5 billion dollars in damages and closure of 800 churches in the US!
I guess Christian mentality is just so physical;
then why talk about word of God incessantly!



-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:29am

Hasan,

 " ... our study is Bible against Bible."

Ok, now I understand what you mean by a "study". First let me say that I'm not a scholar, and maybe not even a good student of the Bible so my comments will be less than what you may want/need. However I'll try to respond as best I can.

Taking your first issue, "Jesus has a God", I think I tried to explain that earlier .... that Jesus was a man in every way, and as a man He put aside his divinity, but not His need to acknowledge and be obedient to His Father. You will not, of course, see it that way, but that's the best I can do. From what I have observed, Muslims seem to pick and choose which parts of Scripture they use as authentic and disregard those things that Christians see as confirmations of their beliefs. For instance, when Jesus was baptized by John .... a baptism that God surely wouldn't need, but one that Jesus saw as necessary to fulfill his role as a man .... the Father spoke of Him as "My beloved Son". Or when Jesus wanted to know who His followers thought He was, and Peter acknowledged Him as Messiah and Son of the living God, or all of the miracles He performed, especially His death and resurrection. All of that is denied .... so what is there to discuss? You will not believe! And I'm not attempting to "preach", merely trying to respond to your statements.

 

As to, "... we discovered that Jesus (pbuh) admitted that he has less power and Father is greater than him. He also said, he cannot do anything by himself without power given to him, from above." I will provide the same reasoning .... Jesus is an observant Jewish man explaining to other observant Jews why He does things they think unlawful (heal on the Sabbath). His authority,as a man, comes from His Father, which His listeners rightfully, but violently, understood as equating Himself with the Father. He speaks as man, acts as that unfathomable entity we call the Second Person of the triune God, the One God of history and eternity. You don't believe it, and I can't explain it.

"...the list goes on"

Yes it does! And I will venture to guess that we could do this until I'm kicked out of the forum.

"... I believe that the knower of all never contradicts, nor those who have been sent His inspiration or reveltions."

I agree!



-------------
joe


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:12am

Ron: “I'm saying is that if Jesus was a man, then by definition he had a Y chromosome.”

You are right. We may assume or say he had it.

Ron: “That chromosome must have come from somewhere”

Exactly

Ron: “If it came from God, then by definition God is his father”

I have to disagree. How did you come up with such a conclusion? Allah (swt) said “be” and then Jesus was in Mary even with all required human elements such as Y chromosome. Is this the act of a so called “father”? This is the act of a creator not a father by any definition even biological. On the other hand, as you claimed, it is not a problem for Allah (swt), is it?



Posted By: Servetus
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 9:55am

Hi Joe,

 

Thank you for the quotation from St. Peter.  I have taken note.  By the way, you may have discovered this as well, that it is not just the Muslims who keep the arguably too-Hellenic St. Paul at arm’s length.  If the works of, among others, Hyam Macoby and Alan Segal are any indication, Saul-cum-Paul is also being systematically circumscribed in Jewish circles as well.  By the way, I almost, just then, made a very timely and topical Freudian slip by typing “circumcised,” but caught myself just in time.  I might have added a smiley face emoticon to finish this post, but sometimes they seem too silly.

 

Best regards,

 

Serv



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by jusaskin

Hasan,

 " ... our study is Bible against Bible."

Ok, now I understand what you mean by a "study". First let me say that I'm not a scholar, and maybe not even a good student of the Bible so my comments will be less than what you may want/need. However I'll try to respond as best I can.

Taking your first issue, "Jesus has a God", I think I tried to explain that earlier .... that Jesus was a man in every way, and as a man He put aside his divinity, but not His need to acknowledge and be obedient to His Father. You will not, of course, see it that way, but that's the best I can do. From what I have observed, Muslims seem to pick and choose which parts of Scripture they use as authentic and disregard those things that Christians see as confirmations of their beliefs. For instance, when Jesus was baptized by John .... a baptism that God surely wouldn't need, but one that Jesus saw as necessary to fulfill his role as a man .... the Father spoke of Him as "My beloved Son". Or when Jesus wanted to know who His followers thought He was, and Peter acknowledged Him as Messiah and Son of the living God, or all of the miracles He performed, especially His death and resurrection. All of that is denied .... so what is there to discuss? You will not believe! And I'm not attempting to "preach", merely trying to respond to your statements.

 

As to, "... we discovered that Jesus (pbuh) admitted that he has less power and Father is greater than him. He also said, he cannot do anything by himself without power given to him, from above." I will provide the same reasoning .... Jesus is an observant Jewish man explaining to other observant Jews why He does things they think unlawful (heal on the Sabbath). His authority,as a man, comes from His Father, which His listeners rightfully, but violently, understood as equating Himself with the Father. He speaks as man, acts as that unfathomable entity we call the Second Person of the triune God, the One God of history and eternity. You don't believe it, and I can't explain it.

"...the list goes on"

Yes it does! And I will venture to guess that we could do this until I'm kicked out of the forum.

"... I believe that the knower of all never contradicts, nor those who have been sent His inspiration or reveltions."

I agree!

 
Hi Joe,
we seem to go in circles. Let me ask you this, where in the old testament is mentioned that God will come to the earth in the form of a man. I imagine so many other things were predicted there, this must be bigger than any other news foretold.
Hasan


-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:43pm

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Are you one of them that doubt the creation of Adam as per OT?

Yup, I believe in evolution, and carbon-14 dating, and the Big Bang, and all the rest of that "modernized old paganism".

If you do not believe when Allah fashioned Adam, and said be  and he was then what are we talking about?
What is your belief?

I believe in logic and common sense.  I'm pretty much an agnostic when it comes to formal religion, in that I don't believe it is possible to know which one (if any) of the many, many fanciful stories that have been told about God(s) happens to be true.  However, I often come across logical inconsistencies in these stories, for instance the idea that a man could be conceived without getting a Y chromosome from somewhere; and when I notice such things I like to point them out.


If you are the type who would be suggesting that angel that brought word from the creator to Mary brought Y chromosome to conceive then this discussion won't go anywhere fast!

I think the most plausible explanation is that the Y chromosome came from Joseph.  It is also possible that it came from God, via an angel or not; but it is not possible that Jesus did not have one.  The absence of a Y chromosome would make Jesus a woman by definition.  (Actually, there are some who have thus concluded that Jesus must have been biologically a woman, but with certain, umm, "transgenic" anatomical features that would make her appear to be a man.  Such things do indeed occur in nature but IMHO that theory is just too speculative to be worth considering.)



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:56pm
Wouldn't GOD have access to all the DNA of every living thing on earth? 
 
AND every mineral and element in the universe?


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by myahya

Ron: “If it came from God, then by definition God is his father”

I have to disagree. How did you come up with such a conclusion? Allah (swt) said “be” and then Jesus was in Mary even with all required human elements such as Y chromosome. Is this the act of a so called “father”? This is the act of a creator not a father by any definition even biological. On the other hand, as you claimed, it is not a problem for Allah (swt), is it?

I keep saying, by definition the biological father is the male who contributes genetic material to the infant.  If you have some other definition for the word "father" then you're welcome to it (and I'd like to hear it), but there's no point in debating definitions.
 
No, this is not the act of a typical father, but then an (alleged) virgin birth is hardly a typical situation, is it?  In vitro fertilization is not the act of a typical father either, but we still recognize the male who contributes half the genes as the biological father.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by believer

Wouldn't GOD have access to all the DNA of every living thing on earth? 
 
AND every mineral and element in the universe?
Of course -- or he could synthesize whatever DNA He wanted from nothing at all.  But He still would be the source of the Y chromosome, and that would still make Him the biological father.  (Or I suppose if He used DNA from Moses, then you could say that Moses was the biological father and God was the Heavenly Lab Assistant conducting the in vitro procedure.LOL)


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:06pm

Nausheen,

Thanks for the references; I will look into them further. When I made my inquiry I was a bit puzzled by the style used to present your opinions. I am in the process of trying to determine how Muslims relate to the Quran, and it seemed predominately technical and very literal, so I wasn't sure how to interpret, what seemed to be an liberal presentation. Now that I understand how you speak of things in the Quran I will be less apt to question the source (although many questions remain).

 Would you mind interpreting: "Auzubillahi minash Shaitan ir Rajeem Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim." and "Jazak Allahu Khair" and " Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara." ?

 


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joe


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by believer

Wouldn't GOD have access to all the DNA of every living thing on earth? 
 
AND every mineral and element in the universe?
Of course -- or he could synthesize whatever DNA He wanted from nothing at all.  But He still would be the source of the Y chromosome, and that would still make Him the biological father.  (Or I suppose if He used DNA from Moses, then you could say that Moses was the biological father and God was the Heavenly Lab Assistant conducting the in vitro procedure.LOL)
 
Hi Ron,
by creating, or by providing a chromsome as in this case, God still is the creator, not father of anyone. God does not father himself, because this is one of the claim that Jesus is God.  So God does not father himself.
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 7:27pm

Originally posted by honeto

by creating, or by providing a chromsome as in this case, God still is the creator, not father of anyone. God does not father himself, because this is one of the claim that Jesus is God.  So God does not father himself.

Well, this is becoming a debate about semantics.  It seems to me that a father is a creator (as in "let's make a baby!").  At any rate I don't see why the two terms are mutually exclusive.  Why can't God be both a creator and a father?

Jesus is God Incarnate, i.e. given a human form.  God is the Father (Creator, if you prefer) of that human form, but both Father and Son are united by a single Spirit.  It's a slippery concept, I'll grant you, but IMHO it is logically consistent.



Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:00pm

Hasan,

 we seem to go in circles.

Around to me again?

 where in the old testament is mentioned that God will come to the earth in the form of a man.

OK, that's a fair question, but it has a complicated answer. If you are looking for something like, 'I'm going to send My Son to earth on December 25th, 0003, to die on a Roman cross for all your sins.", you will be disappointed. Rather, let's start with Jesus' own words on the subject as he speaks to fellow Jews who want to kill him: "Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and it's they which testify of me."

Here are a few of the verses that Jesus had reference to: (and I will just submit the locations in alphabetical order since I think it is considered "dumping" if I quote them in this post)

Amos 8:9, 1 Chronicles 17:11-14, Deuteronomy 18:18, Genesis 3:15, 12:2-3, 21:12, 22:18, 35:1-12, 49:10, Isaiah 1:10, 7:14, 8:14, 9:1, 11:1-3, 22:16, 23:3-4, 28:1, 33:22, 35:5-6, 40:3, 42:1, 49:6-7, 50:6, 53:3-12, 60:3, 61:1-2, Jeremiah 23:5, 31:15, Malachi 3:1, Micah 5:1-2, Numbers 24:17, Psalm 2:6-7, 16:10, 22:1&7-8&14&17-18, 31:5, 34:20, 35:11, 38:11, 41:9, 45:7, 55:12-14, 68:18, 69:4&8-9&21, 72:10, 78:2, 109:24-25, 110:1-4, 118:22, 2 Samuel 7:12-16, Zecharia 9:9, 11:12-13, 12:10, 13:6-7.

Please avoid the temptation to spot check just a few. There is a tapestry to discover, and I hope I have included enough to give you a good enough look. Leaving out more of the pattern will just further distort the picture.



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joe


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 11:49pm
 
Auzubillahi minash Sahitan ir Rajeem
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
 
 
Originally posted by jusaskin

Nausheen,

Thanks for the references; I will look into them further. When I made my inquiry I was a bit puzzled by the style used to present your opinions. I am in the process of trying to determine how Muslims relate to the Quran, and it seemed predominately technical and very literal, so I wasn't sure how to interpret, what seemed to be an liberal presentation. Now that I understand how you speak of things in the Quran I will be less apt to question the source (although many questions remain).

Joe,
I returned to the forums after a considerable long absence, and a friend of mine was urging me to stay (via PM) though I was not finding any such need in the discussions. Was, about to leave since the 23 pair of chromosomes were not sparkling any interest ... if the Y came from a test tube then the father is that test tube kind of analogy was not inspiring ... thus I thought of throwing something completely off the tangent.
But it did catch your attention - to my surprise Smile
 
Like I have said many times(in the past), Quran is not a book of history, or science or technology or a bed time story book .... it has a very unique style which cannot be understood by simply grabbing a translation and going over it from cover to cover. This book has layers of meanings, which cannot be understood unless we sit with a teacher (they are called mufassireen or scholars of quranic tafsir - exiges) and study every arabic word in its  context.
 
you will be surprised to know that a scholar wrote a complete book (100s of pages)  explaining just the first chapter of the quran - which is a supplication and has only 7 verses.
 
Anyway, to cut the long story short ...  we cannot rely on translations alone - they are just a hint in a particular direction, with gaps to be filled in from arabic text itself, hadith and sometimes even the isrealiyats (accounts from Injeel and Torah) - yes, I know what you may be thinking - but its true, many times scholars of tafsir study the accounts of torah to "complete" a picture that is sketched in the Quran. One very obvious example is the story of the sleepers of the cave - chapter 18 - we can learn many details from the isrealiyat in this case.
 
 
 
Originally posted by jusaskin

Would you mind interpreting: "Auzubillahi minash Shaitan ir Rajeem Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim." and "Jazak Allahu Khair" and " Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara." ?
 
 
no interpretations this time :)
 
Auzubillahi minash Shaitan ir Rajeem : I seek refuge in Allah from the satan the accursed one.
 
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim. : Beginning with the name of Allah, Most compassionate, most merciful.
 
Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara:  somewhat a loose translation - We (Allah) revealed in the Quran what is a healing  and mercy to the believers - it increases the disbelievers in nothing but loss.
 


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 12:03am
 
Just to clarify,
if a story can be completed using the accounts of former scriptures, this does not mean the message of Quran is not complete in itself.
 
One reading the Quran may find that an account begins suddenly and ends suddenly - the subjects change and reappear  -  there is no set of order as we may expect in any normal book.
 
This is so, because the sole purpose of this book is to give a believer guidance which is nessecary and sufficient for his/her salvation - all other details are omitted. Things are mentioned as per their relevance, and verbosity is avoided. That is why it does not tell for instance if the sleepers of the cave were six or seven, or eight, which part of history this account is from - who was the ruler, etc etc ... though these details can be found in the isrealiyat, they are not so important for ones salvation thus they are not mentioned here.
 
Hope this clears a little fog that may have appeared in my writing of the above post.
 
 


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 6:55am

Ron : “If you have some other definition for the word "father" then you're welcome to it (and I'd like to hear it) , but there's no point in debating definitions.”

There is point in debating definitions if they are wrong, not complete or not selected properly leading to wrong results. I use your definition to show you how your consideration is regarding Allah (swt). Your definition: the biological father is the male who contributes genetic material to the infant. This definition has two parts:

1-     Father is a male and

2-     Father contributes genetic material to the infant

Now let’s go to biological definition of a male. A male is the sex (of plant or animal) that produces gametes (spermatozoa) that perform the fertilizing function in generation, right? This means you are proposing that Allah (swt) must be plant, animal or have a masculine organ and produce spermatozoon (according to biological definition).

1-  If you say Allah (swt) doesn’t need or doesn't use biological male characteristics, then He is not a male and therefore not a father by the biological definition (of yours).

2-  If you or others would like to consider Him needing organs and sperm with numerous conditions to fertilize, you are welcome to your opinion. I don’t accept such a consideration.

3-   If you are proposing that “Father” doesn’t mean a typical father here, but it means “Creator”, then it is a matter of words and literature (semantics) rather than the concept.

I think there are no contradictions in what Jesus (as) has recited (as he was prophet), unless injected contradictions from two following sources:

1- What people have changed, deleted or badly translated into other languages (both intentionally and/or accidentally).

2- What  people have superficially misunderstood from what Jesus (as) recited.




Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 12:51pm

Nausheen,

Thanks for the translations!

At first I was taken aback at your story of 100+ pages to explain 7 verses, until I realized I have seen similar efforts on the part of Bible expositors. I didn't detect how you felt about that, but in my experience it's "overkill" (no offense to the scholar you mentioned). I truly appreciate the complexity of God's word, and understand that the Creator of all things cannot be entirely comprehended by mere mortals (as evidenced by "science" which has a most difficult time explaining His handiwork); but some of the exegesis I have read are deluxe speculations (in my unworthy opinion).

I'm a bit downcast at the prospect of having to study so hard to learn more of the Quran .... I don't think I have enough time left in this life to make much headway, according to the picture you just painted for me :-)

And I think you are the first Muslim I have spoken/written to who has ever admitted that there are beneficial verses in the Bible. I have seen what I thought were admonitions in the Quran to do the very thing you mentioned, but have never heard anything except veiled disdain toward our Scriptures. Oh, there are any number of reference to Bible verses, but in the context of disproving some other verse or opinion. I'm glad to hear that we still have something of value for Islam from the many prior communications offered by God, even it it's just to fill in some details.

But please don't stick around the forum on my account. I have been meaning to extract myself; however the posts lately have generated more dumb questions for me to ask; and you will most likely be bored to death with the simplicity of my inquiries. I have a lot to learn about Islam and Muslims, and since there are no organized Muslims in my area (at least not that I know of), this forum is a good place to supplement my reading with real live conversation (for as long as they will put up with me).



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joe


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:04pm
"Of course -- or he could synthesize whatever DNA He wanted from nothing at all.  But He still would be the source of the Y chromosome, and that would still make Him the biological father.  (Or I suppose if He used DNA from Moses, then you could say that Moses was the biological father and God was the Heavenly Lab Assistant conducting the in vitro procedure.LOL)"
 
Adam and Eve also had chromosomes. They are not the children of God, they are His creation.
 
Neither Adam or Eve had human parents. Where did the DNA come from?  They were the first, so it had to come from another source. 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 7:14pm

Originally posted by myahya

There is point in debating definitions if they are wrong, not complete or not selected properly leading to wrong results.

There is a point in clarifying definitions so we can communicate effectively, but if we can't agree on a definition then all we can do is avoid using the word.  Words are just arbitrary symbols, after all.

Now let’s go to biological definition of a male.

No, let's not.  God is not a biological creature.  If you think the word "male" necessarily implies biology, then I shouldn't have used the term, because that is (obviously) not what I meant.

If you are proposing that “Father” doesn’t mean a typical father here, but it means “Creator”, then it is a matter of words and literature (semantics) rather than the concept.

Of course God is not a "typical father", but if (by whatever atypical means) he provided the requisite male DNA for Mary to conceive a male child, then by my definition he is the father.  If he merely wanted to "create" Jesus, he could have done so without Mary's help.

But if you choose to define "father" in such a way that it precludes God, then it's pointless to argue the matter.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
 
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
 
- Alice through the Looking Glass, by Lewis Carroll


Posted By: Nausheen
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 9:17pm
Auzubillahi Minash Shaitan ir Rajeem
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
Joe,
you are most welcome. It is my pleasure if anything from this end is of help to you. Shoot your questions, insha Allah I will try to address them if I have knowledge.
 
Don't think you have little time, and do your best. A humble advice to you, have a pure intention of earning the good pleasure of your Lord in whatever you do ... you will find light in your heart through your deeds.
 
May your Lord be your guide. Ameen!
 
Take care,
nausheen
 
 


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Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 11:26pm

Ron, fortunately it seems you are getting closer to what Islam means. In Islam (and so in teachings by ALL Prophets) there is only One Main creator, Allah (swt). As much as I have understood as a Muslim,  infinite creations in worlds are different manifestations of his ability to create from one side, and under his full control of creation from another side. Furthermore “Creator” is only ONE of the names of Allah (swt).

“Ron: If he merely wanted to "create" Jesus, he could have done so without Mary's help.”

Of course, but it doesn’t prove that He has done it this way for us to call Him “Father”.

I have also arguments about your example of Jesus (as) praying to himself and bank account, Enshaa Allah, in another free time.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 11:45pm
 "If he merely wanted to "create" Jesus, he could have done so without Mary's help."
 
Perhaps the miracle of the birth of Jesus was to show a clear sign that Jesus was a Prophet of God. Just as Moses was able to part the Red Sea. God could have just smited the Egyptians, but He chose another way.
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

 "If he merely wanted to "create" Jesus, he could have done so without Mary's help."
 
Perhaps the miracle of the birth of Jesus was to show a clear sign that Jesus was a Prophet of God. Just as Moses was able to part the Red Sea. God could have just smited the Egyptians, but He chose another way.
 
 
 
How come you can give this answer and yet you cannot accept that God did such and such in the thread about "Jesus' new commandment"
 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 10:26pm
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

 "If he merely wanted to "create" Jesus, he could have done so without Mary's help."
 
Perhaps the miracle of the birth of Jesus was to show a clear sign that Jesus was a Prophet of God. Just as Moses was able to part the Red Sea. God could have just smited the Egyptians, but He chose another way.
 
 
 
How come you can give this answer and yet you cannot accept that God did such and such in the thread about "Jesus' new commandment"
 

To add my two cents will point to a very important commonality amongst the three recipients of major revelations  Prophets Musa(Moses), Isa (Jesus) and Muhammad (pbut) the elimination of father figures from their lives from the get go. And for a very important reason cuz they would a  a major hassles  in their  line of work. Remember patriarch of prophets Ibrahim(s)'s father was such a pain Wink
In case of Isa(a) there was a major event of immaculate birth that denoted a multiple pronouncements from Allah,
1. A shock to the smart alecky Jews of his time to come to their senses after such a miraculous birth.
2. Termination of  prophet hood line in the Israelites for ever.
3. Last chance for Jews to repent and be good help Jesus in Allah's work.


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 4:29am
"How come you can give this answer and yet you cannot accept that God did such and such in the thread about "Jesus' new commandment"
 
I am speaking from logic. If you look at the history of the Scriptures from the creation of man until the arrival of the Prophet Jesus, God always gave mankind clear and unquestionable guidance. If you chose to ignore it, that was up to you, but there was no doubt that the message came from God. And there was no doubt as to what God wanted. He made it very clear.
 
In Islam and Judaism we still believe that God has given us clear and unquestionable guidance.  Since we will judged by our deeds on the Day of Judgement we must be responsible for what we have said and done. If we have not followed the Word of God we will be responsible for that. But how can we be held responsible for a doctrine that is ambiguous at best?
 
God is always Just and Fair. If Jesus was God and came to earth to atone for our sins, yet that was not made extremely clear to us by God, then how can we be held accountable for not following this doctrine? Especially since every message from God that came before contradicts the foundation of this doctrine?  God stated very clearly that He is the One and Only God and we shall not associate partners with Him.
 
If all of the Messages and Prophecies sent to earth from God before Jesus were no longer valid and  this was not made extremely clear to mankind, then how could a Just and Merciful God judge us for that?
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: myahya
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 3:58am

Ron: If I need to transfer money from one account to another, I write myself a cheque, withdrawing from the account of "Ron the Husband" and depositing it to the credit of "Ron the Father".

If I am right, you are considering two different roles of one existence (Ron): “Ron the husband” and “Ron the father”. Both of them are selected (to be or to be played) by Ron and both of them exist as long as Ron wills. Ron has potentially absolute power to do anything he wills about both roles. No one can generally or essentially and rationally say “husband is Ron” or “father is Ron”. “Husband” and “Father” are two manifestations of Ron. Furthermore, Ron was the same Ron before taking each of the roles “husband” or “father”. 

I should thankfully say, by using this example regarding Jesus (as) (Son is the name you may prefer to use), you have shown the followings:

Jesus (as) was selected by Allah (swt). Jesus (as) exists as long as Allah (swt) wills. Allah (swt) has potentially absolute power to do anything He wills about Jesus (as). No one can say “Jesus (as) is Allah (swt)”. Jesus (as) is one manifestation of Allah (swt). And finally, before and after the birth of Jesus (as), Allah (swt) was exactly the same Allah (He was not changed and nothing was added to or missed of Him).

Ron: The fact that he is praying to himself is ironic but it doesn't prove that they are two different people.

The example shows well that the existence of Allah (swt) is absolutely inherent and independent of Jesus (as) or any other manifestations, creatures or things. However, I didn’t understand how you showed that Jesus (as) praying to himself is a FACT. From what I see, it is neither a fact nor more than an assumption of yours.



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