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Clarification needed

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: General
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: General Discussion
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1223
Printed Date: 01 September 2014 at 4:29pm


Topic: Clarification needed
Posted By: The One
Subject: Clarification needed
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 2:11am
Hello everyone!

I am a Hindu from India going to marry Muslim woman. Our marriage, though not accepted by the Islamic Law, is accepted by the Law of the land.

My question is, will my would be cease to be a Muslim if she marries me? If not what will she be considered for marrying a non-Muslim? I have no objection towards her Faith.

Thank you.



Replies:
Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 16 June 2005 at 3:54am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Her marriage will not be valid under islamic law, she would be living in sin if she goes through with the marriage.

There is no excemunication in islam she would still be considered a muslim only one who is commiting a great sin.

I have no objection towards her Faith.


have you decided what faith the children will be?


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 5:23am
Hello Rami!

Can I know why the marriage is considered a great sin? Does that mean she will go to hell?

About our children, its their wish about the Faith. No compulsion about it.

Thank you.


Posted By: hkrespect
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 8:13am

i am sorry but a muslim woman cannot be married to a non muslim man, it invalidates the shahada.

she ceases to be muslim

why did the prophet pbuh request his daughters be returned to him pbuh.



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hk


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 8:35am

Assalamu alaikum,

hkrespect: marrying a non-Muslim man does not invalidate the shahada anymore than commiting any other sin.  You cannot tell someone they are not Muslim for sinning, judgement is Allah's alone.

In your scenario, any Muslim who gambles, eats pork, drinks alcohol, commits adultery, fails to say five daily salat, mingles with members of the opposite sex, doesn't fast in Ramadhan, doesn't wear proper hijab, and so on and so on... is no longer Muslim.  That is ludicrous.

Only Allah can judge.  Allah is oft forgiving, Most Merciful.  A sinner is simply a sinner.  Sin, with the exception of shirk, does not invalidate anyone's shahada.  And even then, only Allah can judge.

If this Muslim woman marries The One, she will be sinning, but she will still be a Muslim.  Allah will weigh her good deeds against her bad deeds on the judgement day.

Peace, ummziba.



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Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 9:04am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

how does commiting a sin ivalidate what you believe to be true, faith is in the heart read the ahadith about allahs mercy if you go to him with sins as high as the sky and not commit the one thing unforgivable shirk he will forgive you. Saying it invalidates the shahada is the beliefe of the Khawarij, so we should be careful that our beliefe is correct.

He requested it becouse the marriage is no longer valid and the would be living in sin.

The One a muslim women can not marry a non muslim man, Allah has decreed against it that is why it is a sin.

I dont know if she will go to hell, if Allah forgives her than no. Our deeds are weighed on the day of judgment those whose sins number more than there good deeds will go to hell. No muslim will stay in hell for ever it is only a punishment not an eternal destination.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Lameese
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 9:31am

Hmmmm if the man were Muslim and the woman were Hindu could he marry her then?

Lameese



-------------
You Shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
Let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another and let it be a moving sea between the the shores of your soul


Posted By: ummziba
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 9:59am

Assalamu alaikum,

No, a Muslim man cannot marry a Hindu.  He can only marry a Muslim or a practicing woman from the people of the book (Christian, Jew) who believes in and worships the One God.  That pretty much narrows the field to Muslims only.

Peace, ummziba.



-------------
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 8:48pm
Salam to everyone!

Any specific reason for not allowing marriage between a Muslim and a non-Muslim? I heard that Quran talks about equality. But what equality does it teach?

Because everyone knows that love is not a choice or a decision. It directly comes from God, as a decree. If we do not follow that decree, we will be punished it here itself, isn't it?

If I want to be a Muslim, in which sect will I be included considering me as a Hindu?
And if my would be wants to change to my religion, what will her status be according to Islam?

And if we talk about sin, no one in the whole world is a Muslim by the word or deed. Everyone including the non-Muslims will be in hell.

Thank you.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 8:56pm

The One God's peace be upon you!

I do agree with bro Rami and Sister Ummziba on this matter.....We are merly talking about Islamic law and what the guidelines are. However I understand the intimate love you both have for each other and as the brothers and sisters here  have said it is considered a sin. I however as a human being cannot say what you do is wrong. You in fact, love her and she loves you and if you accept her for who she is and vice versa then I have to say its right. However I do not condone what she does as a Muslim. I also echo what the brothers and sisters here say. Because she married a non-Muslim she doesn't cease to be Muslim. There are Muslims who perform many sinful vices but God, whom is your lord and mine is so merciful that if you truly feel what you've done in your life was morally wrong then he is all forgiving.

Me personally I've seen the beauty of marriage of different couples of various religious backgrounds and on a religious level I cannot say I condone it, but if you love her and she loves you then Godspeed!



Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 9:11pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

salam

Any specific reason for not allowing marriage between a Muslim and a non-Muslim? I heard that Quran talks about equality. But what equality does it teach?

Yes Allah has forbiden it specificaly in the Quran. The teachings of the Quran are taken as a whole we dont pick and choose as we like.

Because everyone knows that love is not a choice or a decision. It directly comes from God, as a decree. If we do not follow that decree, we will be punished it here itself, isn't it?

That is not true, of any religion i know. We do not believe love is a decree from god. We dont have a say in many things are they also from god? people are atracted to many things and love comes and goes. Much of it is simply desire rather than love.

If I want to be a Muslim, in which sect will I be included considering me as a Hindu?

You can not be a hindu and a muslim at the same time, muslims believe in one God. The majority of Muslims are Sunni if she is sunni then i supose that would be the logical path.

If you mean you want to be a muslim coming from hindu background then your background does not matter, Islam wipes away all sins of the past when you choose to be a muslim, you will not be held responsible for any past sins.

And if my would be wants to change to my religion, what will her status be according to Islam?

She will no longer be a Muslim and her punishment would be severe in the next life.

And if we talk about sin, no one in the whole world is a Muslim by the word or deed. Everyone including the non-Muslims will be in hell.

Comiting a sin does not make a person a non muslim, so no only those who sin and not repent will be punished.





-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: ummsalam
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 9:18pm
"Any specific reason for not allowing marriage between a Muslim and a non-Muslim? I heard that Quran talks about equality. But what equality does it teach? "

asalamu alaikum.
For a man, it is okay for him to marry a woman outside of Islam, but like earlier stated they have to be adhering to monothestic religion. For a woman, on the other hand, is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim man, because yes its said in the quran, but the reason behind that is because the child takes two things from the father, their religion and their name. And because Islam encourages conversions to Islam and not another religion, a woman needs a man who will give Islam to his children.
get what i mean
if i have said something wrong than please forgive me
jazakum Allahu khairan
asalamu alaikum


-------------
umm salam


Posted By: Arabian
Date Posted: 17 June 2005 at 11:21pm
ummsalam,

You are quite right actually.  In Islam a man is permitted to marry any woman belonging to the people of the book (dhimmi's).  A woman however can not marry into such relations.

In the case of the man, he can not impose any Muslim customs on the woman, and is not permitted to keep his wife from attending church or synagogue.

Peace,
Arabian


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 18 June 2005 at 9:58am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Actualy Arabian it is obligatory that she be practicing her faith ie atending a church or synagog not simply be a christian or jew. She must be a reasonably moral person.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Arabian
Date Posted: 18 June 2005 at 10:11am

rami,

I never came across your claim in the Quran.  What I understood is that a man can intermarry but a woman can not.  Also, there are limits to marriage; a man can only marry among the people of the book.  I didn't see any claim as to whether the woman must be practicing her faith or not.

"And do not marry the polytheist women until they believe. A believing slave woman is better that a polytheist woman, even though the latter may please you. And do not marry your womenfolk to disbelieving men until they believe. A believing slave is better that a polytheist even though the latter may please you . . ." [Sura Al Baqarah/2:221]

A woman can be a believer and not actively practice her faith.

"This day all innately good things are lawful for you…Lawful to you are the chaste women from among those who have been given the Book before you. . . ." [Sura Al Ma'ida (5:6)]

Peace,
Arabian



Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 18 June 2005 at 11:53am
Hello everyone!

This is really interesting and much more confusing...

My would be is a Sunni, and if I have to convert I would only convert to a more reasonable religion or sect.

What are the differences between a Sunni and a Shia?

Hey Rami, the most interesting part of the post is, "Islam wipes away all sins of the past when you choose to be a muslim, you will not be held responsible for any past sins."

What is the basis followed by you to consider a religion to be polytheistic or monotheistic? World has many religions and Quran talks only about Christianity and Judaism. It does not consider any of the East Asian religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucism, Taoism, Shintoism etc. There are much older civilizations like the Chinese and the Indian, but does not talk about them. And you have to study them to find out whether they are polytheistic or monotheistic. Isn't it?

Thank you.

Aparichitudu


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 18 June 2005 at 6:27pm
Bi ismillahir rahamnir raheem

assalamu alaikum

Arabian i was talking about who a muslim man can marry.

The One,

What are the differences between a Sunni and a Shia?


Sunni: One who follows the Sunna (path of the prophet), therefore orthodox, or a non-Shi'ite Muslim.

The main difference is that Shia believe that only a decendend of the Prophet can hold leadership position or be a Khalif. Sunni's believe any person can provided he fulfills the basic requirments to be suitable for the position so the shia have rejected many people in power based on this point. Sunni comprise roughly 85% of the world Muslim population although Shia are the largest non Sunni group.

What is the basis followed by you to consider a religion to be polytheistic or monotheistic? World has many religions and Quran talks only about Christianity and Judaism. It does not consider any of the East Asian religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucism, Taoism, Shintoism etc. There are much older civilizations like the Chinese and the Indian, but does not talk about them. And you have to study them to find out whether they are polytheistic or monotheistic. Isn't it?


The Quran explains this best,

Say: He is Allah, the One
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten
And there is none comparable unto Him
Quran:112

he has many atributes such as The All-Merciful, The All-Compassionate, The Source of Peace, The Creator, The Maker of Order, The Judge, The Satisfier of All Needs. Christianity Judaism and Islam as well as many other sub sects of chritianity and judaism believe in the same one god except teaching are different.

Allah has given us knowledge about many past religions and faiths older than Bhudism and many other religions of past,  He has sent  messengers and prophets to every single nation or people on earth in the past to guide them to the truth, but as time has gone on many of these teachings have either been lost, changed, the messenger was ignored or killed by his people or the people have simply died out.

This why you see truths in many of the older religions but the original message it self has not been entirely preserved properly and over time distorted delibretaly or lost and changed through translation. Some of our scholars after studying the teachings of older religions have said there is a real posability that  Budha and Confucious were in reality messengers from God but non of there original teachings have survived to this day uncorupted.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Arabian
Date Posted: 18 June 2005 at 7:11pm

The difference between Shia and Sunni narrows down to a political dispute.  Shia's believe that only the descendants of Muhammad can obtain the Caliphate and Sunni's believe anybody can obtain the Caliphate.  Why should you mingle yourself in such things, just consider yourself a Muslim, non-denominational.  Truly love Allah, his messenger and the family of Muhammad.  Love all humans, and love all that is good.

Peace,
Arabian



Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 19 June 2005 at 12:25am
Hey Rami!

I know about that verse. Its no different from what we Hindus hold.

You said, "Allah has given us knowledge about many past religions and faiths older than Bhudism and many other religions of past, ..."

Can I know what He has exactly said. As far as I know, there is nothing written about the world religions. Please be specific.

I know that Muslim and Christian scholars are always sceptical about East Asian religions. Unlike the Abrahamic religions, East Asian religions have no quarrels with each other even though their may be differences and mostly fulfill each other. The main theme being "Reincarnation" or "Rebirth" which is strongly rejected in the Abrahamic religions. I wonder what is the basis of that rejection.

Aparichitudu


Posted By: Arabian
Date Posted: 19 June 2005 at 9:37am
Aparichitudu,

I am studying the Quran and various Islamic works with the attempt to find proof of reincarnation in Islam.  I have run across a few verses that support it, but I am looking for more information before I post my findings.

I believe Sufi Islam supports reincarnation.

Peace,
Arabian


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 19 June 2005 at 7:49pm
Hey Arabian!

Thats interesting! Considering that Quran directly rejects the concept of reincarnation. As far as I know only Quran and Hadith are considered the true works.

I have read Quran, but couldn't find anything supporting reincarnation. I would be pleased to know about those verses that support reincarnation. This brings us closer.

Thank you.

Aparichitudu


Posted By: modarjan
Date Posted: 19 June 2005 at 10:42pm

Marriage is based on love, an eternal love of heart and soul and is in depth goes beyond the physical intimacy. It may start with initial physical attraction, but it gradually ascends into soul, reaching where the level of love is spiritual, unselfish, and caring. How can that be attained specially for a muslim woman, who knows that she is sinning in the intimate physical act, according to the faith she believes in. Bondage in marriage is emancipated in every aspect of living, thinking beyond self, always willing to sacrifice for each other and for family out of love. On the same token of love reaching that level, there are external forces, which could disturb that harmony. It is only my humble opinion, that believing in different faith is such factor. Think about it carefully! Who are the people in our daily life, in our extended families, our friends, our colleague, that we get along? People who click with us, meaning those, who have similar thinking as ours. We choose from among these groups of people to socialize with. Will, then, this same principle apply in our soul-mates too? Harmony in life is established and maintained with similar practice of faith, specially when you have children. For the well being of whole family to grow together soundly with physical, emotional and spiritual development, it is so very important that both parents believe in the same philosophy of life. Different set of philosophy and faith brings confusion in the development of minds of children. What is sacred in one religion, is all right to be consumed in the other or what is considered as God or image of God, is an idol worship in other. Please know, that I am just making a point regarding differences in practice of religious beliefs and not condemning any religious practice. My humble suggestion would be to search and study and analyze and talk about it with open mind of learning and knowing. A good example here is from consumer world that we live in.. You want to buy an outfit. If you buy from one shop, you will never know, if this one was the best in terms of color, design, price etc. but if you shop around, you will have that satisfaction, that you bought the best. Religion is important part of life. It is essential for our spiritual being. Without religion, we cater to only our physical existence of flesh and blood. So search for the one which appeals to your conscious mind. Analyze,discuss and compare notes and thoughts, strengths and weaknesses in your faiths and then choose one as partners in life and eternity. May The Most Merciful Almighty God lead you to the right path, God willing! I will share experiences of family and friends in that relation, if I get positive and open response from you. Modar

 

 



Posted By: Lameese
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 12:03am

The One,

Hello, would you be willing to convert? Or at least look at your beloved's religion? Let her tell you all about it

Maybe that will help you understand her better and yourself.

 

Lameese



-------------
You Shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
Let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another and let it be a moving sea between the the shores of your soul


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 8:03am

Originally posted by The One

Hey Arabian!

Thats interesting! Considering that Quran directly rejects the concept of reincarnation. As far as I know only Quran and Hadith are considered the true works.

I have read Quran, but couldn't find anything supporting reincarnation. I would be pleased to know about those verses that support reincarnation. This brings us closer.

Thank you.

Aparichitudu

Though, I don't know about Quran, but can you point out the source of incarnation in hinduism? I mean, which Veda originally presented the idea of incarnation or rebirth? What I know from Quran is that when we all die, we would remain dead in our graves, untill the day of Judgement when we all be called alive to account for our actions and deeds done in our lives on earth. So, the concept of rebirth is little different, I think, from your ideas of rebirth in the form of reincarnation. But again, I shall appreciate it if you can point out its source of information, e.g. Vedas, or Mahabaratta or other epics etc. 



Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 11:48am
Hey Modarjan,

Even others have written what you have written. Why do you people think that our love is physical?

Thank you for your post, but it is much like a marriage counselling.

Religion is a habit. I dont mean to hurt you, but I do not find anything spiritual about Islam. I dont find any "world without time" concept in Islam. The goal of Islam is reaching heaven and not God itself. Even if I convert, it would be for my love and not for the love of Islam. Hinduism accepts every religion. I will be a human being even if I convert from Hinduism. So there is no problem for me to convert to another religion. But I dont want to take a hasty decision. And I would like to know your experiences. Experience is the only teacher.

Thank you,

Aparichithudu.


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 11:52am
Hiya Lameese!

Thank you for your suggestion, but we don't generally talk about religion. Frankly, I don't want to discuss religion with her.

Aparichithudu


Posted By: Lameese
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 12:08pm

The One,

You really need to discuss it because when you have children that will be a whole different ball game. I am speaking from Experience here.

Just talk about it before marriage so you both know where you stand so there are no suprises after you are married.

Lameese



-------------
You Shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
Let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another and let it be a moving sea between the the shores of your soul


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 12:10pm
Salam Ahmad!

Vedas do not discuss about reincarnation. Upanishads have the concept of reincarnation. But as far as I know, reincarnation is not discussed as a subject. It is an accepted truth not only in Hinduism but all the East Asian religions like Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, Confucism etc. This concept is not followed because it has been written in some book or epic. The concept of rebirth or reincarnation is related to science rather than religion. Science has more references and proofs to this concept than religion.

Aparichithudu


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 12:16pm
Dear Lameese,

Thank you for your kind suggestion. We had been together for many years now, we both are from same profession and my parents and her parents are family friends since their childhood.

Even if we talk about religion, we don't take each other seriously.

And I would consider your experiences, but may not follow you. I am waiting for an Indian Muslim to see and answer my posts. An Indian Muslim can understand my situation better.

Thank you.

Aparichithudu.


Posted By: Lameese
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 12:20pm

If you have been together many years then everything should be ok because you already know eachothers values and experiences. Good Luck!

 

Lameese



-------------
You Shall be together when the white wings of death scatter your days.
Let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
Love one another and let it be a moving sea between the the shores of your soul


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 20 June 2005 at 9:16pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

Originally posted by Arabian

Aparichitudu,

I am studying the Quran and various Islamic works with the attempt to find proof of reincarnation in Islam.  I have run across a few verses that support it, but I am looking for more information before I post my findings.

I believe Sufi Islam supports reincarnation.

Peace,
Arabian


You will not find reincarnation in islam it goes against the teachings and the aim of the religion. It is not taught by Allah in the Quran or the Sunnah, we know the exact reason for the revelation of each and every verse and our scholars have spent 1400 years studying this religion it does not exist.

What you are atempting to do rather is re-interpret some versus and take them out of context of the Quran and the reason for there original revelation. Remember that each verse in the Quran was revealed becouse of a particular event that occured at the time of the prophet (sallah llahu alahi wa sallam).


I know about that verse. Its no different from what we Hindus hold.


Shirk or polythiesm is basicly atributing divinity to other than the one God, somthing different than what is in Hinduism.

You said, "Allah has given us knowledge about many past religions and faiths older than Bhudism and many other religions of past, ..."

Can I know what He has exactly said. As far as I know, there is nothing written about the world religions. Please be specific.


God sent prophets to all nations on earth, at various stages of their histories. The Holy Quran says:

"And for every nation there is a messenger." (10:47)

"And there is not a people but a warner has gone among them." (35:24)

Islam speaks in detail about past nations, the main prophets are mentioned in the Quran, if i remember corectly there are 25 mentioned. The clear majority dating back further than moses who was alive roughly 4-5000 years ago this is a brief list

  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Adam+and+Eve&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Adam آدم
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Idris+%28prophet%29&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Idris ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Enoch&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Enoch ) ادريس
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Noah&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Nuh ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Noah&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Noah ) نوح
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Hud+%28prophet%29&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Hud ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Heber&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Heber ) هود
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Saleh&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Saleh ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Shelah&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Shelah ) صالح
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Abraham&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Ibrahim ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Abraham&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Abraham ) ابراهيم
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Lut&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Lut ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Lot+%28biblical%29&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Lot ) لوط
  • Ismail ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Ishmael&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Ishmael ) اسماعيل
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Ishaq&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Ishaq ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Isaac&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Isaac ) اسحاق
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Yaqub&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Yaqub ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Jacob&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Jacob ) يعقوب
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Yusuf&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Yusuf ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Joseph+%28Hebrew+Bible%29&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Joseph ) يوسف
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Shoaib&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Shoaib ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Jethro&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Jethro ) شعيب
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Musa+%28prophet%29&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Musa ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Moses&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Moses ) موسى
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Harun&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Harun ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Aaron&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Aaron ) هارون
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Daud&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Daud ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=David&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - David ) داود
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Sulayman&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Sulayman ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Solomon&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Solomon ) سليمان
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Job+%28Biblical+figure%29&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Ayub ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Job+%28Biblical+figure%29&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Job ) أيوب
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Ilyas&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Ilyas ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Elijah&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Elias ) إلياس
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Dhul-Kifl&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Zulkifl (possibly http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Ezekiel&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Ezekiel ) ذو الكفل
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Al-Yasa&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Al-Yasa ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Elisha&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Elisha ) اليسع
  • Yunus ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Jonah&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Jonah ) يونس
  • Zakariya ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Zechariah&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Zechariah ) زكريا
  • Yahya ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=John+the+Baptist&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - John the Baptist ) يحيى
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Isa&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Isa ( http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Jesus&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Jesus ) عيسى
  • http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=562lhkq0o7e0q?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Muhammad&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc04b" class="ilnk" target="_top - Muhammad محمد


I havnt checked the infomation provided about each above. It has been estimated that Allah has sent 124000 prophets to various nations or people at different times throughout history. We dont have the names of all, it is based on the verse "And there is not a people but a warner has gone among them."

I know that Muslim and Christian scholars are always sceptical about East Asian religions. Unlike the Abrahamic religions, East Asian religions have no quarrels with each other even though their may be differences and mostly fulfill each other. The main theme being "Reincarnation" or "Rebirth" which is strongly rejected in the Abrahamic religions. I wonder what is the basis of that rejection.


We are going of topic now, this would be better in a new post.




-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 21 June 2005 at 12:03am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

i should add the Quran is full of accounts of past nations and peoples, the Sunnah has even more.

The reason why i state this is that you said earlier you had read the Quran.


-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 21 June 2005 at 6:14am
Thank you Lameese for you wish.

Aparichithudu


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 21 June 2005 at 6:26am
Salam Rami!

God is One. There is no denying of it. Yes, I would not get off topic.

Why is it considered a great sin to marry a Hindu?

I didn't get any answer regarding equality according to Islam.

Hey Rami, you say "i should add the Quran is full of accounts of past nations and peoples, the Sunnah has even more."

I am not a scholar, but I know there is no mention of either Indian civilization or Chinese civilization in both Holy Quran and Hadith.

Aparichithudu.


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 21 June 2005 at 7:44am

Salam to All,

Regarding equality in Islam,

" `And We have made you nations and tribes so that you may know each other; verily the best of you in God's sight is the most pious.'" (Surat Al Hujurat:13.)

The Quran does not give any nation, race, etc. superiority over any other. Allah (s.w.a.) assigns a value to an individual based on his level of piety. I have not seen a statement of equality like this in any other religion, as it does not even say that a Muslim is superior to a non-Muslim. Only Allah (s.w.a.) knows the true value (and ultimate destination) of an individual.

" Why is it considered a "great sin" to marry a Hindu?" ("'s used because any haram action has serious consequences).

And do not marry the 'Mushrik' women unless they come to believe;  and a Muslim slave girl is better than a 'Mushrik' woman, even though she may attract you; and do not give (your women) in marriage to 'Mushrik' men unless they come to believe;  and a Muslim slave is better than a 'Mushrik' even though he may attract you.  They invite to the Fire when Allah invites, by His will, to the Paradise and to forgiveness, and makes His verses clear to the people, so that they may observe the advice. 

Surah Al-Baqarah 2: 221

Your acceptance and practice of Polytheism (Shirk) is contrary to the teachings of the most basic tenent of Islam. I am not an expert (by any means) on Hinduism, however, I do know that no scholar of religion considers Hinduism to be monotheistic (despite your claims to the contrary).

Regarding Islams mention of past civilizations

Islam is not a history (or anthropology) book. Islam gives stories of past civilizations for a specific purpose (i.e., spiritual guidance). Allsh (s.w.a.) is the Guide (Al-Hadi), and he knows the best method of guiding his servents to him.

Salam

 



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 21 June 2005 at 8:27pm
Salam Ali!

I know about the verse from that Sura(49:13), but I do not find any relation to equality in that. Its just a statement. You said," I have not seen a statement of equality like this in any other religion," and then you also said, "I am not an expert (by any means) on Hinduism".

I do not understand without knowing what is preached in a religion, how can one conclude it to be a polytheistic or monotheistic. You said, "I do know that no scholar of religion considers Hinduism to be monotheistic (despite your claims to the contrary)."
Can you please quote a scholar who is a Hindu who said that Hinduism is a polytheistic religion? Looking at our practices, anyone can conclude that it is polytheistic. But everything which is practiced need not be preached by the religion. And how can you conclude that everyone is polytheistic?

This is the reason I asked what is the basis of your categorization of religions.

Aparichithudu.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 21 June 2005 at 9:06pm

Salaam,

To extend on brother Rami's point (forgive me for saying this) the brief reason God in the Qur'an does not mention (remember Allah never specifically rejects reincarnation) is because contrary to Eastern religons (in this case Hinduism) is because in the spiritual sense God will judge mankind accordingly where when life ceases there is no continuation after that except through judgement. God has argued in the Qur'an that resurrection only occurs not reincarnation. With reincarnation the mind/conscious of the person takes new shape/or form. In Islam when God ressurects the body he does with both soul and the same body in which the soul ascended from. As I understand with some elitest caste members in Indian society the reincarnation is another effort to go up on the ladder of the caste system perhaps you can add more to this in another forum.



Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 22 June 2005 at 7:56am

Alakum Salam "The One"

" Can you please quote a scholar who is a Hindu who said that Hinduism is a polytheistic religion?"

This demostrates (very well) the problem that the two of us have (and most likely will continue to have) in this discussion. Speaking only for myself, I do not care much whether or not a Hindu scholar considers Hinduism polytheistic or not. As a former Christian, and can tell you that Christians also consider themselves monotheistic, however, they define the term differently than the academic (or Islamic, in this case). Buddists do not consider themselves atheists, but atheists include Buddists among their school of thought. Mormons call themselves Christians, however, Lutherns do not consider them as such. Do you see a problem here.....

The term monotheistic (academic terminology) means the worship of only One God. To a Muslim, they call the One and Only God, Allah (s.w.a.). Since you do not worship Allah (s.w.a.), and you also worship other dieties (hence the many temples to these dieties), then neither a Muslim nor an academic (secular) scholar consider you to be monotheistic. How you define yourself has nothing to do with my point.

You are continuing to post on this site because (I assume) you have some interest in learning about Islam. I (although I am already a Muslim) am also seeking knowledge of Islam. This is where our interests converge.

Your original question was about the status of Hindus in Islam. This question has been answered (in the same way) by the other Muslims that have responded to you. You continue to request that people learn about Hinduism (or are an Indian Muslim) to respond to your posts. As for me, I am not interested in learning about Hinduism (otherwise, I would be posting on a Hindu website).

Salam



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 22 June 2005 at 9:24am
Salam Israfil!

I consider study or concept of rebirth is related more to science than to religion. I know there is a strong rejection about rebirth in case of three religions, viz., Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And I have nothing against your belief. Everyone has to die one day, and that day they will clearly know what really happens to us when we die.

I did not understand by" As I understand with some elitest caste members in Indian society the reincarnation is another effort to go up on the ladder of the caste system perhaps you can add more to this in another forum."
There is nothing called an elite caste. Everyone are equal. And there is nothing like "up the ladder".

Aparichithudu.


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 22 June 2005 at 10:25am
Salam Ali bhai!

No, I sincerely don't want to continue talk about categorization of religions by the west nor I want to "teach" you Hinduism. Though I want to know more about Islam. What I know is still not sufficient considering that I will share my life with a Muslim. This is interesting the way you are accusing me of teaching Hinduism in a Muslim forum.

I don't care on what scale the world recognizes my religion. But I care how Islam categorizes any religion to be a polytheistic religion. Worship of One God is totally different from admiration of dieties. Only God can be worshipped, dieties can only be admired. I want to know what you mean by worship.

Thats what I was saying and was not asking about "status of Hindus".

Aparichithudu.


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 22 June 2005 at 11:10am

Aalakum Salam "The One"

" I want to know what you mean by worship."

My meaning is not a specific or specialized meaning, it is the meaning that you will find in any dictionary. Here are some.

wor·ship= reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence

or

extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

SOURCE: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=worship&x=10&y=17 - http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va =worship&x=10&y=17

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WORSHIP AND REVERANCE

In Islam, there is no problem with showing reverance or respect for REAL things. (such as putting flowers on grave or visiting dead people, shrines (tombs) for REAL people who are worthy of respect, not harming (and caring for ) plants, animals, etc.) This is reverance. The difference between worship and reverance is two things. 1.) Revered things are REAL and ACTUAL things, not something that has been created out of the mind, imagination and 2.) The recognition that these things have NO power in themselves, and are totally and completely dependent on Allah (s.w.a.)

Any object, sign, symbol, etc. (such as a picture of an human/animal, a stone, a piece of wood) that is imaginary, or a real thing that is given divine qualities and revered is (based on the definition above) being worshiped. Materialism is also a form of shirk (and a materialist, in a sense, is also a Mushrik). The reason is that the dollar (or coin) is revered and is given divine qualities (such as the ability to bring happiness, peace) which belongs only to Allah (s.w.a.)

In general anything (other than Allah (s.w.a.)) which is attributed with divine qualities (that were not given by Allah (s.w.a.)) and revered is being worshipped.



-------------
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 22 June 2005 at 11:45am

Also,

You said in another post that " I find no difference between a name or image."

Here's the difference,

A name is a man-made creation (i.e., it is not divine) and has absolutely no intrinsic value. A symbol (such as a letter, number, etc.) has no "reality", other than it's agreed upon meaning.

An image is a depiction of something, either real or imaginary. A picture has an intrinsic reality (i.e., it has universal resonance (similar to a musical note)) and it's meaning is RECOGNIZED intrinsicly, even if not understood.

Here is an example of the difference.

To a person who does not know how to read Arabic, the letters "Alif-Lam-Lam-Alif-Ha" are meaningless and have no value to that person. That is absolute proof that the letters and their meaning were created by man and are meaningful only to those who have learned their meaning and agreed to recognize it. These letters are used only to be a "placeholder" for something else, and have no intrinsic value or meaning.

Let's assume (for the sake of argument) that there is a person on the earth who knows absolutely nothing about Islam and has never seen a picture of the Kaba. If a picture of the Kaba were shown to him, his mind would immediately start to make assumptions about what it was that he was looking at. Even if you didn't tell him anything about the reality of what it was, he would make (most likely false) assumptions about what he saw. The picture that he saw would have the effect of creating a false reality regarding the Kaba in his mind. If (years later) he was told about the Kaba and shown the picture again, he would have two realities (a real and false one) competing in his mind.

It is for this reason that, in Islam, letters are used to "symbolise" divine ideas and pictures are not. Pictures of (non-human things, such as angels, jinn, etc.) are forbidden, although they are discussed using words and letters.

As a child, I remember looking at the Sistine chapel. Until I became Muslim, I always pictured (astafirAllah) God as an old man with a white beard sitting on a cloud. When I prayed to God, this is the picture I had in my mind. Intellectually, I knew that this was not God, however, this image that I saw had a lasting and profound effect on my idea of God. This idea was false and had the effect of producing "shirk" in my soul. Only Islam cured me of this diseise. The three letters G-O-D in the Bible certainly DID NOT have this effect.



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 24 June 2005 at 11:55am
As far as I know, if the Muslim woman have sex with you (before or after "marriage") she is answerable for the crime of zina, as the marriage won't be considered valid.

-------------
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 25 June 2005 at 10:56am
Salam alaikum Ali Zaki!

That was interesting, but it does not bear any relevance. This is because of what you have said about "difference between worship and reverence" is your view. The meaning you gave is entirely your version. If I ask another, he/she will give a totally different explanation.

Just like language(words), images are also not understood.   You said, "A picture has an intrinsic reality (i.e., it has universal resonance (similar to a musical note)) and it's meaning is RECOGNIZED intrinsicly, even if not understood." Same image holds different meaning to different people and that "similar to a musical note" is not understood by all, it is only understood by the one who knows how to write a musical note. That intrinsic recognition totally depends on the person who percieves it. And "even if not understood" is only regarding very few images just like words.

You also said, "These letters are used only to be a "placeholder" for something else, and have no intrinsic value or meaning." Just replace "letters" with "images" and you find no difference. For example, "Al Rahim" means "The Merciful". Does it completely explain Allah? NO. Its only one of the attributes of Allah. I have said, Hindus do not pray to a stone, they contemplate on the attribute the image implies. Just like you do not pray to the word "Al Rahim", we do not pray to an image.

You just cannot say that a man standing before a stone with closed eyes is praying to that stone.

The argument about Ka'ba was good. It similarly applies to even words. If you say Al Rahim, what is the immediate picture in your mind? Certainly anyones mind cannot be blank. Most of the Muslims think of Ka'ba in their minds.

Its upto the man/woman who wants to see an image as God or contemplate on an idea or principle.

And idol worship is not preached in Hinduism. People practice it due to ignorance.

Aparichithudu.

-------------


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 25 June 2005 at 12:08pm
Salam alaikum Zaman bhai!

Kya haal hai?

What are you saying? Why is it a crime? I am not a idol worshipper nor a polytheist. Then how can she be punished for sleeping with me?

Aparichithudu.

-------------


Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 26 June 2005 at 8:19pm
Mujhe lagta hai ki tuu jhoot bol rahaa hai. Agar tuu sach bol rahaa hai to shaadi najayaz hogi.

-------------
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 26 June 2005 at 11:41pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

You are not of the People of the Book Either which would certainly be the only people muslims are alowed to marry if what you were saying was true.

By Islamic defanition The One, Hindu's are polythiest who worship idols/false Gods.  you claim they have power this means that you are atributing divinity to them by islamic terms and atributing divinity and power to Other than Allah.

Allah did not give what Hindu's worship any power to do anything not even intercede on his behalf. Thess figures/idols themselfs which you revere are fictitious and have no reality in islam hence polythiesm.

Allah did not take on any forms nor was he born or given birth, there is nothing like him.

The Hindu trinity is of http://www.hindunet.org/god/trinity/brahma/index.htm - Brahma , http://www.hindunet.org/god/trinity/vishnu/index.htm - Vishnu and Shiva. They are respectively the creator, preserver and destroyer of the universe. They are also aligned as the transcendent Godhead, http://www.hindunet.org/god/trinity/shiva/index.htm - Shiva , the cosmic lord, Vishnu and the cosmic mind, Brahma.


By Islamic defanition the Christian Trinity is Polythiesm.



-------------
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 3:19am
Originally posted by The One

Salam alaikum Zaman bhai!

Kya haal hai?

What are you saying? Why is it a crime? I am not a idol worshipper nor a polytheist. Then how can she be punished for sleeping with me?

Aparichithudu.


Peace freind

If you are not a polytheist, and are a declared monotheist, there are no problem whatsoever according to the Quran. The concept that weman are weaker mentally, and need others to protect their deen is ludicris and have no origin in the Quran whatsoever. I accept the Qurans authority over EVERYTHING else. So lets take a look...

First, do you accept this?
"Those who have faith, and those who are Jewish, and the Converts, and the Nazarenes, whosoever has faith in GOD and the last day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve." (5:69)


Do you without question, belive that there is God and your destiny lies with God?

5:7 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent from the believing women, and the independent from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their dowries, protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.

2:221 Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters,who associate), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise.

Its all about monotheism. But because it is men being adressed in these verses, and verses like them. Schoolar thought...well he doesnt mentione females, so we better come up with a proper explanation. The proper explanation is that the Quran is a guidence to ALL mankind, this including weman. So whatever goes for men, goes for weman unless otherwise stated. Such as it is a mans responsability to provide for his spouse. This is not put on weman, but it is altso directly stated, so theres not really an issue here.

Peace
TnE

 


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 3:25am
The one.

be carefull with mullah law, and go look up Gods law. However, if you belive in a trinity as one god, rather than GOD, The God. She is off limits to you. Same if you pray to stone idols. If you cannot pray to the Lord of all without having something else to look at. You are not monotheist. But God alone judge us :)

Peace
TnE


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 5:53am
Zaman bhai, isme jhooth bolne ki kya baath hai.
Quran tho iska khilaaf nahi hai na bhai. Quran mai Hinduon ka ya Hindustan ka zikr hi nahi hai. Phir bhi kuch logoan ka imaan se pure quam ko kafir ya mukshir kehna theek nahi hai.

Aparichithudu

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Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 6:38am
Hey Rami bhai,

"Hinduism" is the name given to the conglomerate of various beliefs in India. And not all believe in the trinity. Sri Krishna in Bagavadh Gita says, "Those devotees who worship other dieties with deep faith, they also are worshipping It(God) alone, though contrary to the injunctions. It(God) is indeed the only enjoyer and Lord of all sacrifices(prayers). But they(the worshippers of other dieties) do not understand It(God) in Its true nature. So they fall."(9:23,24)

Aparichithudu.

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Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 6:41am

Salam to all,

al-'Imam al-Sadiq (A) is reported to have said to 'Unwan al-Basri: 

Avoid giving fatwa in the way you would run away from a lion; do not make your neck a bridge (over hell) for the people.

Imam Ali (a.s.) from Naghjul Balagha (The Peak of Eloquence)

Allah may bless him who listens to a point of wisdom and retains it, when he is invited to the right path he approaches it, he follows a leader (by catching his waist band) and finds salvation.

Imam Ali (a.s.) from Naghjul Balagha (The Peak of Eloquence)

I wonder, and there is no reason why I should not wonder, about the faults of these groups who have introduced alterations ...They act on the doubts and tread in (the way of) their passions. For them good is whatever they consider good and evil is whatever they consider evil. Their reliance for resolving distresses is on themselves. Their confidence in regard to dubious matters is on their own opinions as if every one of them is the Leader (Imam) of himself. Whatever he has decided himself he considers it to have been taken through reliable sources and strong factors.

Islam is clear on this issue.Please avoid giving your own personal opinion, as someone may consider this a real (i.e. scholarly) one.



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 7:06am
Salam Noah!

Thank you for your post friend.

There is no meaning in polytheism. Ignorant people alone do not recognize the Oneness of God. We cannot blame them.

There is no meaning in asking a believer whether he believes.

Islam is not the only monotheistic religion. You said,"If you are not a polytheist, and are a declared monotheist" Who would declare me a monotheist?

Aparichithudu.

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Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 7:12am
Hey Ali,

Thats good. Everyone believes what they want to believe.

You say, "Please avoid giving your own personal opinion..." Do you mean to say that their is a universal opinion?

Aparichithudu.

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Posted By: Ali Zaki
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 10:14am

To Br. "The One"

My previous post was direct towards Noah (although I was trying to be subtle about it), and not you.

I do not think my posting are helpful to you. This does not surprise me, however, my wish is that Allah (s.w.a.) may guide you (and me).

For what it's worth, I would like to say that by negating something in your own mind (There is no meaning in asking a believer whether he believes, There is no meaning in polytheism) this does not change the reality of it's existence. Reality is not for us to decide, but only for Allah (s.w.a) to decree.

The reality of a believer (i.e., his/her true value and sincerity of intention) is known only to the person and Allah (s.w.a.) Our purpose here is not to asses the value of an individual, but to discuss the system/way that Allah (s.w.a.) has blessed us with to allow us to move closer to His reality (Islam). Regarding "there is no meaning in polytheism", as they say in my country , "Actions speak louder then words!".

Peace



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"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)


Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 27 June 2005 at 11:11am
Zaman bhai, isme jhooth bolne ki kya baath hai.

Woh tu behtar jaanta hai.

Quran tho iska khilaaf nahi hai na bhai. Quran mai Hinduon ka ya Hindustan ka zikr hi nahi hai. Phir bhi kuch logoan ka imaan se pure quam ko kafir ya mukshir kehna theek nahi hai.

Quran samajhne ke liye sirf Quran padhna kaafi nahin hai. Sunnat aur hadith bhi malum hona chahiye.

Wiase, tuu urdu mere se acchi bol leta hai.


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An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 7:00am
Ali bhai,

I was agreeing with you. I was not negating you. When I said "Thats good" I was saying "That post was good".

Your posts are helpful to me. Whether it is a little help or a great help, help is helpful.

You said, "The reality of a believer (i.e., his/her true value and sincerity of intention) is known only to the person and Allah (s.w.a.)" I totally agree with you. One may say one thing and believe another. Thats what is called hypocrisy, isn't it?

Regarding "there is no meaning in polytheism", as they say in my country , "Actions speak louder then words!".

Yes, actions speak louder than words, but not always.

Thats what I was saying to Zaman bhai. One cannot judge the whole community just by looking at a few people. Religion is not sampling.

"Actions speak louder then words!" is at a personal level.

Aparichithudu.

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Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 7:10am
Salam alaikum Zaman bhai!

Woh tu behtar jaanta hai.

samajh me nahi aaya.

Quran samajhne ke liye sirf Quran padhna kaafi nahin hai. Sunnat aur hadith bhi malum hona chahiye.

maalum hai. magar sunnah aur hadith me bhi hinduon ke baren me kuch bhi nahi hai.

Wiase, tuu urdu mere se acchi bol leta hai.

shukriya bhaijaan.

Aparichithudu.

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Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 9:16am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

Please keep the discussion in english a moderator is not able to do there job if he can not understand what is being said. If you wish to continue this conversation please do it via private message or email.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 11:16am
You have heard The Brother Rami Editation Warning,Editation May Come Soon!...

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Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 11:49am

samajh me nahi aaya.

Hindus are not very serious about religion and very few Hindus  marry Muslims. If you are true, you are like an exception amongst exceptions. That is why I doubt if you are telling the truth.

Also, about the  hadith. http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=21380&dgn=4 - This is to answer you. .

See also, http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&CR=344&dgn=4 - Conditions of marriage

 



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An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet


Posted By: rami
Date Posted: 28 June 2005 at 10:01pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

18. If any board member is found inadequate in observing any of the above rules, he/she may be prompted once, twice or thrice by the moderators before denying him/her all access to discussion boards in future.

consider this your first warning sulayman.


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Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.


Posted By: Suleyman
Date Posted: 29 June 2005 at 2:32am

Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

18. If any board member is found inadequate in observing any of the above rules, he/she may be prompted once, twice or thrice by the moderators before denying him/her all access to discussion boards in future.

consider this your first warning sulayman.

 Es_Selam'un Aleykum Brother Rami,

....brother,are u discussing with the other moderators before taking ur decisions?...best regards,i am just making fun please don't mind to my writings...u are seriously cool...

These laughing faces are really comic:)))



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Posted By: safwanwaddoul
Date Posted: 02 July 2005 at 10:36am

Dear friend from India the old country of rituals and good culture.

As Musslim I don't deny any religion or fath. It is up to Allah al-Mighty to judge at the day of judgement.

My observation to your mariying the Mosslim sister is the following:

In Islamic law and in the old traditional observation, a woman can't marry a non Mosslim, because the children should follow the religion of their father(as the father will be the head of the house, and the mother will be the body of it, and therefore both will form the sole of marriage head and body full of mercy and sentiments fo oive and understanding);

As for a Mosslim man can marrya non Mousslim woman, with no obligation toward her to change her religion if she is from the people of the book who warship Allah alone.

So, your matter is clear and staright forward. Or you becom a Mosslim, or you should not maryy her, or you will ignor all the fact of thye religion and go ahead with your paln but you will be counted as well as her to your deeds. And Allah al-Mighty knows best.

Peace on you all

Safwan waddoul



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Safiwadi


Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 02 July 2005 at 2:58pm

Salam,

 

The One, I made a reply to your discussion about non-Muslims marrying Muslim woman on the other thread where you originally started your post.  I was going to repost it here but it is quite lengthy and I did not want to be disrespectful to those that may have already read it on the other thread. 

 

After reading all of the discussion on this thread, it appears that maybe you are looking for others to tell you that this marriage is okay.  I say this because you have repeatedly rejected what others on this thread have been telling you and you said yourself that you are waiting for a Muslim from India to replay to your posts because he/she would better understand your position.  Truth does not come about in numbers.  So, even if you can find 1,000,000 Indian Muslims who agree with you, it doesn’t make marrying her right according to Allah (swt).  Allah (swt) is the one who made the laws.  We are commanded to follow those laws, to not deviate from them and not to make innovations to them.

 

I want to point out a difference between Hinduism and Islam which I don’t think has been mentioned yet.  You keep saying that you only believe in ‘one god.’  So, let’s take a look at that.  I understand that according to your faith, there is one god and that all of the other deities are mere attributes of the one god.  For those who have a hard time grasping this concept, picture a prism with light shining through it from which a multitude of colors appear.  According the Hindu faith, each of those colors is merely an attribute of the one god; hence, worship of any or all of these attributes is simply considered worship of the one god.  So, these deities (attributes of the one god) are used as conduits for the devotee’s consciousness.  Actually, what you get in Hinduism is one god with everything in the universe as a manifestation of that one god…even humans are a mere manifestation of god.  So, the goal of humans is to try to find their way back to the oneness of existence, i.e., god. 

 

According to Hinduism, seeking god is equivalent to seeking “self actualization.”  If one reaches this stage, when he/she dies in this life, they will return to the oneness with god and not be reborn; however, if they fall short, then they are reborn to try again.  Given this understanding of Hinduism, it is best not to call it a polytheist religion but rather a pantheist religion, one where all of existence is merely a manifestation of god.  If we see Hinduism in this light, which I believe is basically the true (even if I have made it brief) meaning of Hinduism, we can clearly see that even if we are justified in classifying Hinduism as a “monistic” religion, it is definitely not the same monotheistic religion that we find in Islam.  In Islam, we acknowledge that Allah (swt) created all things; however, we don’t then turn around and say that a cow is Allah (swt) or that a tree is Allah (swt).  Allah (swt) gives us signs through nature, not that He is nature.  In other words, we don’t believe in pantheism, that is, there is a clear distinction between Allah (swt) and His servants.

 

Another major difference between Hinduism and Islam is in the concept of death.  It is clear in the Qur’an that when we die, we remain in the grave until we are called back on the Day of Judgment when we are brought in front of Allah (swt) to answer for our sins.  (The only exception to this described in the Qur’an are those that Allah (swt) took straight up into paradise prior to death, e.g., Jesus (pbuh).)  On the Day of Judgment, one of three things will happen to us:  1.)  Allah (swt) can have great mercy on us and allow us directly into paradise, 2.) He can send us to hell to taste the fires for the sins we have committed and then allow us to enter paradise, or 3.) He will submit us to the fires of hell for eternity.  It is also clear in the Qur’an that there will be those that will cry out to Allah (swt) to be given a change to be reborn so that they can follow His will upon their return; however, He will not allow this.  So, in Islam, there is cry for reincarnation but not an allowance for it.  In other words, you don’t get to live the kind of life you personally chose to live and then when you face Allah (swt) request another go at it.  The opposite seems to be the case with Hinduism.  According to the Hindu faith, if a person fails to find “self actualization” in this life, he/she is automatically made to be reborn to try again and again until he/she gets it right.  And if he/she doesn’t get it right, he/she is destined to be reincarnated for an eternity.  That in itself is contradictory to Islam.  Muslims are promised a Day of Judgment, an end to this world for all of mankind. 

 

Also, what is this “self-actualization” for Hindus?  What if they reach it?  What does it mean?  It means that they then becomes one with god and do not have to come back to earth to suffer any of the hardships here.  There is no paradise.  This also is a far from what was promised to Muslims by Allah (swt) in the Qur’an.

 

So, The One, even if we concede to your statement that Hinduism is a monistic religion, you still need to prove that it is the type of monistic faith that is set forth in the Qur’an.  But since that is clearly not the case, there is no more reason for you to argue that you can marry this Muslim sister based up the fact that Hinduism is also monistic faith.



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Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 03 July 2005 at 9:20am

Salam walaikum to Zaman!

Hindus are not very serious about religion and very few Hindus  marry Muslims.

I find it to be a sweeping statement.  You cannot generalize that all Hindus are not serious about religion. Very few Muslims stay in the Southern part of India and I think you are from South India(considering you don't know much of Urdu). And what you see everywhere in India is very degenerated form of Hinduism which has more emphasis on rituals than the required part. I agree few Hindus marry Muslims with respect to Shariah. But there are many inter-religious marriages in every state of India.

The Arabic Quran when translated to English, gives similar statements as you pointed out from the websites. As far as my knowledge is concerned women should not be married to a non-believer or one who submits to others(other than Allah). But why is it generalised to only Muslims?

Your brother,

Aparichithudu.



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Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 03 July 2005 at 9:24am

Salam to Safwanwaddoul!

Thank you for your concern. I know the custom followed in a Muslim family. But its a custom, not an edict from God.

Aparichithudu.



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Posted By: The One
Date Posted: 03 July 2005 at 9:25am

Salam Khadhija!

I apologize for not reading the post in other discussion forum. I will read both the posts thoroughly and would reply you promptly.

Aparichithudu.



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Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 05 July 2005 at 8:38am

Salam The One,

Thank you, I am patiently waiting your response.

PAZ



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Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: FeistyNomad
Date Posted: 05 July 2005 at 5:22pm

If I'm going to have my posts deleted, can one of the moderators kindly tell me what rule/s I breached?



Posted By: Khadija1021
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 8:04pm

The One,

I'm still waiting on the response you promised me.

PAZ



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Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)


Posted By: ZamanH
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 9:30pm
This should be seen as example to all the Muslims who let their daughters freely interact with men and allow them to move around without restrictions and send them for education to co-educational instituitions. Their daughters might also begin a relationship with someone and elope with their lovers.

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An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet



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