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some questions

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Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12160
Printed Date: 30 August 2014 at 1:28am


Topic: some questions
Posted By: jusaskin
Subject: some questions
Date Posted: 31 March 2008 at 12:08pm

A few questions please, since I have read and heard different opinions on the following:

1.Is it correct to say that each word in the Quran was told to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel, who received the words from God? And that Muhammad received these message at different times, and being illiterate, he passed them on to someone who could write?

2. Is the Quran compiled according to some particular order? If the order is not according to when it was received, has this order ever been determined .... in other words, is there an index according to when the verses were received?

3. How is the Quran supposed to be read as relating to the existing scriptures of the Jews and Christians? Does the Quran supersede, amend or in some other manner link itself to those writings? Where can this be found in the Quran?

4. A question I asked in another post but have not received an answer .... what is meant by "the Book" and "people of the Book", in the Quran?

Being unfamiliar with this forum's etiquette, is it preferable to post one question at a time, or is a multiple questions post acceptable?



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joe



Replies:
Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 31 March 2008 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by jusaskin

A few questions please, since I have read and heard different opinions on the following:

1.Is it correct to say that each word in the Quran was told to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel, who received the words from God? And that Muhammad received these message at different times, and being illiterate, he passed them on to someone who could write?

You understanding is correct!

2. Is the Quran compiled according to some particular order? If the order is not according to when it was received, has this order ever been determined .... in other words, is there an index according to when the verses were received?

It commences with a short chapter called Fatiha (Opening) or oft repeated The Lord's Prayer.

It was determined by the Prophet (saw) as to combine the common themed revealed sign passages(ayaas) under  common chapters. He would recite the revealed portion at every anniversary in the month of Ramadan along with the arch angel Gabriel and  He did twice before his death.

The order in the final Quraanic scheme  of it's recitation the longest to the shortest got settled in the lineup. The chapters in front contain most of the items jurisprudential and the items having to do with warnings for the disbelievers or describing the handiworks of the creator about life and resources provided in the maintenance of transitory life are set in later part of the readings.

If some one who is opting to be a Muslim Jurist  then he reads the Prophet(Saw) biography along with the revelatory time line which gives case by case causes of revelations. You can get yourself  a good copy of seerah(Prophet's biography) which can tell you how it worked!

3. How is the Quran supposed to be read as relating to the existing scriptures of the Jews and Christians?

The Quraan is totally independent reading.

Does the Quran supersede, amend or in some other manner link itself to those writings?

It does all of the things you mentioned!

Where can this be found in the Quran?

You could use Quraanic search of IC subject by subject basis to find where Allah (swt) did those corrections as He deemed appropriate! As a matter of fact those references helped me to rediscover Islam in the US that was lost in the British colonial times.

It is a long subject my friend!

4. A question I asked in another post but have not received an answer .... what is meant by "the Book" and "people of the Book", in the Quran?

Generally speaking  there are three Prophets(as) who were giving a set of defined revelations beside  Muhammad(saw) cuz they had a nation audience (Israelites) to apply those instructions to as required by Allah. It was a Allah's time based project to proclaim Allah's worship and economic justice in the known world.In this mission Torah was revealed to Musa (as), Zaboor to Dawud(as) and Ingeel to Esa(as). It so happened that none of these prophets could complete the assignments due to the unreasonable demeanor of this relentless race- instead they took the economic control of the world as we know it!

Generally who followed the fore mentioned books; were called People of the Book  and some times differentiated by being called Jews & Christians/ Nezranis!, The secularist out of these groups were classified as pagans!

Being unfamiliar with this forum's etiquette, is it preferable to post one question at a time, or is a multiple questions post acceptable?

It is the moderators' purview!

I guess for questions it shouldn't be a problem



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 01 April 2008 at 1:07pm

SignReader,

Thanks very much for the good information!

Does the Quran supersede, amend or in some other manner link itself to those writings?

It does all of the things you mentioned!

I’m a bit confused here …. To supersede would mean that the other scriptures were to be replaced by the Quran. Or to put it another way, the Torah, Zaboor and Ingeel would no longer be valid for it’s readers, but would be replaced by the Quran. Is that really what you mean? And it may well be, as I have heard that expressed before. I just want to make sure that is what you are telling me here.

Where can this be found in the Quran?

You could use Quraanic search of IC subject by subject basis to find where Allah (swt) did those corrections as He deemed appropriate! As a matter of fact those references helped me to rediscover Islam in the US that was lost in the British colonial times.

Please forgive my ignorance again, but I’m not sure what you mean  by “Quraanic search of IC subject by subject”.

 It is a long subject my friend! Thanks for the warning 



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joe


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 7:08am

 

 About the Quran superceding or abrogating the bible, I will soon try to find out and I hope to send some reply. There is a mixed report about these matters. I will try to give some reply.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 02 April 2008 at 6:40pm

http://www.altafsir.com/Quran.asp?SoraNo=5&Ayah=46&NewPage=0&img=D - [5:46]
And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).

http://www.altafsir.com/Quran.asp?SoraNo=5&Ayah=47&NewPage=0&img=D - [5:47]
Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.

http://www.altafsir.com/Quran.asp?SoraNo=5&Ayah=48&NewPage=0&img=D - [5:48]
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

 



-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 03 April 2008 at 8:55pm

Originally posted by jusaskin

 
SignReader,

 

Thanks very much for the good information!

 

Does the Quran supersede, amend or in some other manner link itself to those writings?

 

It does all of the things you mentioned!

 

I’m a bit confused here …. To supersede would mean that the other scriptures were to be replaced by the Quran. Or to put it another way, the Torah, Zaboor and Ingeel would no longer be valid for it’s readers, but would be replaced by the Quran. Is that really what you mean? And it may well be, as I have heard that expressed before. I just want to make sure that is what you are telling me here.

 

Where can this be found in the Quran?

 

The message Allah to Moses had tremendous number of  dietary and other legal points cuz the Israelites had lived under slavery in Egypt for so long and they needed to be set on an right path with approved procedures after their escape from the Egyptians tormentors. Due their bad habits they were let to wander in the Sanai wilderness for couple of generations. When Jesus (as) got picked up by Allah(saw) Paul preached his version of Gospel he wrote himself and he did the reverse of what Musa(as) that most laws from Musa(as) or Dawood(as) were no longer applicable on his new followers/converts. So things he or other added or promulgated are superseded or set aside.

Following this when Allah permitted the Muslims food from the kitchens of people of Book, He categorically excluded the swine, blood and other foods (Read Chapter 5 Al Maida (The Table Spread)i.e., to observe Moses' dietary rules but not the way Jewish Rabbi had gotten the Kosher rules written down!


It is but natural for the people to stick to the religious practices and the weaning process happens to be quite tedious. Whoever amongst the People of the Book stayed on the monotheistic worship and strictly followed the rules, Allah gave them the pass for redemption in the hereafter even if they did not profess Kalima. It is what we call they got "grand fathered" as long as things stayed peaceful but events moved fast  so the grand fathering became tentative cuz the majority of the People of the Book and it's clergy did not want to follow the rules! They were OK with the secular rules but not the religious ones!

The writings of Paul also alluded to some racial overtones that didn't bode well for the Arabs and the European based Christianity's underpinnings!

If you look at the behavior of the preachers today, you can get some idea what I am talking about!

 
Read Quraan if like to see what I am saying in Chapter 6 to at least upto verse 67(Al-An'am (The Cattle)

6:67 For every message is a limit of time, and soon shall ye know it."

 and Chapter 13:38 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Every age has had its revelation:

The miracle of Quraan was being the seal on further revelations cuz Muhammad (saw) completed his mission it's application in his life time and and then the companions carried on for the world that neither recipients of the Torah or Gospel  could achieve in their own times! 

 

Please forgive my ignorance again, but I’m not sure what you mean  by “Quraanic search of IC subject by subject”.

When you open IC’s front page look on the right column at about middle you find-Quran Search-click that, it will open Quran search page that gives options to search by word, topic, phonetic on the left column and by chapter & verse on the right column. It couldn’t get any easier than that! try it!

I hope you aren't more confused! 

 



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 12:46pm

Sign Reader,

When you open IC’s front page look on the right column at about middle you find-Quran Search

Now I see! I had not known what you meant by "IC". That is a very good source of information, and really well done. Fun to see how much Arabic one can match up with the English.

I hope you aren't more confused! 

You did a very good job of trying to inform me, but making sense of the Quran, for a Christian, is confusing work .... at least for this Christian. It's hard to read that my scripture is full of lies, and that Muslims are forbidden to be friends with me. Still I will try to see where we have common ground, and make the best of that.



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joe


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 April 2008 at 6:49pm

I know what you mean jusaskin.

Here are some verses regarding the truth in our Holy Scriptures- 

Remember though that unlike the Bible the different translations can really change the whole meaning of the verses.  words in ( ) translators own words

003.003

YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

PICKTHAL: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

SHAKIR: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

005.047


YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

005.048


YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
PICKTHAL: And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
SHAKIR: And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

005.068


YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

002.087

YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
SHAKIR: And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then a messenger came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.


- Sura 3:48 - And He (Isa/Jesus) will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat (Torah) and the Injeel (Christian Gospel).

- Sura 3:50 - And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat (Torah) and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

003.084
YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

005.044
YUSUFALI: It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
PICKTHAL: Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.
SHAKIR: Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers
.


005.046
YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

005.047
YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.


005.068
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

-

006.154
YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
PICKTHAL: Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
SHAKIR: Again, We gave the Book to Musa to complete (Our blessings) on him who would do good (to others), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord.

006.155
YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy:
PICKTHAL: And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed. So follow it and ward off (evil), that ye may find mercy.
SHAKIR: And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed; therefore follow it and guard (against evil) that mercy may be shown to you.

006.156
YUSUFALI: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"
PICKTHAL: Lest ye should say: The Scripture was revealed only to two sects before us, and we in sooth were unaware of what they read;
SHAKIR: Lest you say that the Book was only revealed to two parties before us and We were truly unaware of what they read.

006.157
YUSUFALI: Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.
PICKTHAL: Or lest ye should say: If the Scripture had been revealed unto us, we surely had been better guided than are they. Now hath there come unto you a clear proof from your Lord, a guidance and mercy; and who doeth greater wrong than he who denieth the revelations of Allah, and turneth away from them? We award unto those who turn away from Our revelations an evil doom because of their aversion.
SHAKIR: Or lest you should say: If the Book had been revealed to us, we would certainly have been better guided than they, so indeed there has come to you clear proof from your Lord, and guidance and mercy. Who then is more unjust than he who rejects Allah's communications and turns away from them? We will reward those who turn away from Our communications with an evil chastisement because they turned away.


- Sura 29:46 "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;

- Sura 32:23 - And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

- Sura 43:63 - When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

046.012
YUSUFALI: And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.
PICKTHAL: When before it there was the Scripture of Moses, an example and a mercy; and this is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.
SHAKIR: And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:04am
Originally posted by jusaskin

Sign Reader,

When you open IC’s front page look on the right column at about middle you find-Quran Search

Now I see! I had not known what you meant by "IC". That is a very good source of information, and really well done. Fun to see how much Arabic one can match up with the English.

I am glad you are having fun but: Are you familiar with Arabic?

I hope you aren't more confused! 

You did a very good job of trying to inform me, but making sense of the Quran, for a Christian, is confusing work .... at least for this Christian. It's hard to read that my scripture is full of lies, and that Muslims are forbidden to be friends with me. Still I will try to see where we have common ground, and make the best of that.

Joe: Let me give you a fundamental rule of thumb in Islam only the part that is a revealed from God(Allah) to an authentic messenger is a true word of God and it neither mine nor yours per se. It God's word the Quran or Gospel need to pass that muster! The saying of the Prophet Muhammad(was) / Jesus(s) are not God's words when some one tries to mix things up need to reject lot!The Chritians have different way to Judge the God's word and probably the Jews do the same thing!

So far your being friends with Muslims is concerned you need to read the Bio of the Prophet to see why those verses were revealed and the circumstances for them that is absolutely a must! I have been lot closer in friendship in  business with Christians than Muslims. It all depends upon the person to person.

Historically speaking though the Muslim nations have been burnt by the Christian nations, look at the colonialism of last couple of centuries and the neo colonial control of the lands now




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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 9:16am

Believer,

Thanks! That's a nice selection, and I have run into some of them before .... which is where some of the frustration and confusion originates. I would imagine that Muslims will go to other verses and "help" us "understand" your selection. And I can see how and why they would do that. From what little I know of Islam, a devout follower will be convinced that the Quran is the ultimate authority over all other scriptures. Where the Quran conflicts with another, the Quran trumps the other. For a devout Christian it's the other way around, the Bible over the Quran. And that seems to be the basic problem. I wonder if it's even possible for the two to reconcile?

There is something appealing in these words of 5:48, "... for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;"

I like the notion that we would "strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds", if it could be interpreted as both working toward loving God and our fellow man in a spirit of cooperation rather than competition. Even there, the Christian understands that good deeds are not meritorious toward the reward of eternity with God, in that Jesus has already gained that for us; but that should not prevent us from working side by side with the believers of Islam who hold a different view.

In the effort to understand Islam, I'm often coming back to some things Paul said to Timothy in his second letter: "... strive not about words to no profit ... shun profane and vain babblings for they will increase unto more ungodliness ... foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes", but also considering, "... the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves ... ". I wonder sometimes if this is just "vain babblings" or do my conversations profit me and the other person? I hope it's the latter.

 



-------------
joe


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 11:19am

Sign Reader,

"only the part that is a revealed from God(Allah) to an authentic messenger is a true word of God"

We have the situation in the Bible where nothing can be verified as "authentic" if we must produce a document that claims to be written by Jesus, and it seems that would be the only authenticity that would satisfy a Muslim. Christians are convinced that our Scripture is accurate enough to convey the intended message of God through Jesus, and I am puzzled by how a Muslim can differentiate between what is "authentic" in our Scripture, and what is not.

Perhaps we could take a specific incident and you can help me see how that is done. Are you aware of a much loved accounting of Jesus teaching the people called "the sermon on the mount"? One version is found in the gospel of Matthew, chapters 5, 6, and 7. I would like to know what of that teaching, if anything, can be determined by a Muslim to be a revelation from God. And while that might sound like a challenge, I only propose it as a tool for understanding.

"So far your being friends with Muslims is concerned you need to read the Bio of the Prophet to see why those verses were revealed and the circumstances for them"

This also confuses me! I was under the impression that whatever was found in the Quran was the exact words of God, and that the sole purpose of the Quran was to be a teaching for all mankind. Your statement sounds like one must read God's words as being conditional, and that other sources are needed to explain His intention. If I need to go elsewhere for clarification, wouldn't I be relying on a mere mortal to speculate on what God meant?

I'm not trying to be quarrelsome, but that really threw me! I was just getting ready to think I understood how to read the Quran, but now I'm once again unsure. Can I take a verse like ... oh, let's say, 6:121 .... "Eat not of (meats) on which God's name hath not been pronounced: That would be impiety." Would that injunction need further clarification as to whether it applies to everyone? Is it meant just for people of that day, or today also? Or does it mean just what it says, without further qualifications?

"I have been lot closer in friendship in  business with Christians than Muslims."

I had to smile at that one! I have the same sort of problem with Christians, especially when it comes to business transactions. I suppose we expect more (or maybe a better deal) of one who proclaims the same faith as yourself. It also proves that just because one professes a belief, it does not automatically mean that it is a sincere belief.

"Historically speaking though the Muslim nations have been burnt by the Christian nations, look at the colonialism of last couple of centuries and the neo colonial control of the lands now"

Separating religion from politics in world affairs is not my strong suite ..... if I even have one. When I look at Ireland, for instance, and try to figure out if Catholics and Protestants are religious or political antagonists, it seems a blur. Were the Crusades religious or political? Both, I imagine. Do we attribute religious motives to political motives at times? I'm pretty sure we do. Would it be better if we worked together to build a better world community, than to insist our way is the only way? I think so.

Which reminds me ..... thanks for your willingness to try to help me understand Islam. That's why I'm here.



-------------
joe


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 11:57am

I like that verse too.  There is a chance though that if this is an earlier verse, a better one has been put in place of it. 

Good Questions.  I want to know - How do you know if a messanger is authentic? 

I have been asked repeatedly but Muslims -where is the Gospel that Jesus wrote?  The Quran wasn't written by Mohammad.

Allah ->Gabriel -> Mohammad -> Scribes

YHWH->Apostles(who happened to be the sribes)

 



-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by believer

I know what you mean jusaskin.

Here are some verses regarding the truth in our Holy Scriptures- 

Remember though that unlike the Bible the different translations can really change the whole meaning of the verses.  words in ( ) translators own words

003.003

YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

PICKTHAL: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

SHAKIR: He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

005.047


YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.

005.048


YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
PICKTHAL: And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
SHAKIR: And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

005.068


YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

002.087

YUSUFALI: We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
PICKTHAL: And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?
SHAKIR: And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then a messenger came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.


- Sura 3:48 - And He (Isa/Jesus) will teach him the Book and the wisdom and the Tavrat (Torah) and the Injeel (Christian Gospel).

- Sura 3:50 - And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat (Torah) and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.

003.084
YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
SHAKIR: Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

005.044
YUSUFALI: It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
PICKTHAL: Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.
SHAKIR: Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers
.


005.046
YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
PICKTHAL: And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

005.047
YUSUFALI: Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
SHAKIR: And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.


005.068
YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
PICKTHAL: Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: Say: O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.

-

006.154
YUSUFALI: Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
PICKTHAL: Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord.
SHAKIR: Again, We gave the Book to Musa to complete (Our blessings) on him who would do good (to others), and making plain all things and a guidance and a mercy, so that they should believe in the meeting of their Lord.

006.155
YUSUFALI: And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy:
PICKTHAL: And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed. So follow it and ward off (evil), that ye may find mercy.
SHAKIR: And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed; therefore follow it and guard (against evil) that mercy may be shown to you.

006.156
YUSUFALI: Lest ye should say: "The Book was sent down to two Peoples before us, and for our part, we remained unacquainted with all that they learned by assiduous study:"
PICKTHAL: Lest ye should say: The Scripture was revealed only to two sects before us, and we in sooth were unaware of what they read;
SHAKIR: Lest you say that the Book was only revealed to two parties before us and We were truly unaware of what they read.

006.157
YUSUFALI: Or lest ye should say: "If the Book had only been sent down to us, we should have followed its guidance better than they." Now then hath come unto you a clear (sign) from your Lord,- and a guide and a mercy: then who could do more wrong than one who rejecteth Allah's signs, and turneth away therefrom? In good time shall We requite those who turn away from Our signs, with a dreadful penalty, for their turning away.
PICKTHAL: Or lest ye should say: If the Scripture had been revealed unto us, we surely had been better guided than are they. Now hath there come unto you a clear proof from your Lord, a guidance and mercy; and who doeth greater wrong than he who denieth the revelations of Allah, and turneth away from them? We award unto those who turn away from Our revelations an evil doom because of their aversion.
SHAKIR: Or lest you should say: If the Book had been revealed to us, we would certainly have been better guided than they, so indeed there has come to you clear proof from your Lord, and guidance and mercy. Who then is more unjust than he who rejects Allah's communications and turns away from them? We will reward those who turn away from Our communications with an evil chastisement because they turned away.


- Sura 29:46 "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;

- Sura 32:23 - And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.

- Sura 43:63 - When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

046.012
YUSUFALI: And before this, was the Book of Moses as a guide and a mercy: And this Book confirms (it) in the Arabic tongue; to admonish the unjust, and as Glad Tidings to those who do right.
PICKTHAL: When before it there was the Scripture of Moses, an example and a mercy; and this is a confirming Scripture in the Arabic language, that it may warn those who do wrong and bring good tidings for the righteous.
SHAKIR: And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good.

You are now "dumping", which is prohibited (see the thread at beginning of interfaith section). If you want to argue that a verse supports your view of your NT, then argue for that verse and show it to be as you say. "Dumping" is a game, which includes pasting a long line of verses with nothing more than an assertion labled on the paste. Please follow the rules.



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 5:49pm

Hi Joe,  you wrote: "Christians are convinced that our Scripture is accurate enough to convey the intended message of God through Jesus, and I am puzzled by how a Muslim can differentiate between what is "authentic" in our Scripture, and what is not."

Joe, the simple answer to your question is because we the Muslims, if are convinced of anything is the absolute Oness of God, we are truly monothiestic without any ifs or buts. We may deny anything else but we are very hard headed (very firm) when it comes to accepting anything other than absolute One God.

Chirstians may be conviced about the authenticity of their scripture as you said, I was too before I read it.  

There are some fundamantals upon which a belief is built, God and our salvation are the two most important ones for most of us. On both of those basic points Christians and the Bible failed to agree. Their stand on those two points does not convince me, and so many other people who were Christians before and after figuring out the facts by themselves, no longer accept its teaching and have become Muslims.

We the Muslim believe that God is One, He is not begotten, nor he begets. So if we see anyone or anything saying otherwise, we know its not the truth. We believe that our salvation comes through following the guidance we are given by God, and through obedience to Him. God loves those who obey Him, for them He has promised forgiveness and a reward. If any tell us otherwise it's not the truth. We belief each one of us works toward his/her own destiny. If any tell us otherewise it must not be the truth.

So based on that open eye knowledge upon which we build our belief, we are able to figure out the right from wrong, firmly.

Hasan



-------------
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 8:30pm

Why did Allah and Mohammad authenticate the Torah and Gospel? 

How was the Quran authenticated?



-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by believer

Why did Allah and Mohammad authenticate the Torah and Gospel? 

How was the Quran authenticated?

Please provide proof of what you say, so that we may know what context you are referring to. Asking loaded questions that have unargued assumptions buried in them is not a sign of honest dialogue.

 



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 07 April 2008 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by believer

Why did Allah and Mohammad authenticate the Torah and Gospel?

No they did not, Torah and Gospel are NOT available in their original form! Yes Torah or Gospel is mentioned cuz they were revealed books  of which portions  were  lost intentionally or otherwise!

You know the history!

How was the Quran authenticated?

Many ways:

After revelation it was read to public on a progressive basis and commited to memory by the believers and recorded! After Prophets migration to Medina it became the Law of the land and stays that way till today! The original manuscripts can still be found.

You can pick a hafiz from say Canada and another from other side of globe say Malaysia and hear them recite the same original text verbatim from beginning to end. They will do it even Arabic is not their own mother tongue!



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 3:44pm
Hasan,
 
There are some fundamantals upon which a belief is built, God and our salvation are the two most important ones for most of us. On both of those basic points Christians and the Bible failed to agree.
 
I regret that I do not understand the above quote. That "God" and "our salvation" are two fundamental beliefs, I get, but I'm not sure what you mean with the next sentence. Are you saying that Christians and the Bible disagree with each other, or disagree with Islam?
 
Perhaps an example would help.


-------------
joe


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 10:35am
Originally posted by jusaskin

Hasan,
 
There are some fundamantals upon which a belief is built, God and our salvation are the two most important ones for most of us. On both of those basic points Christians and the Bible failed to agree.
 
I regret that I do not understand the above quote. That "God" and "our salvation" are two fundamental beliefs, I get, but I'm not sure what you mean with the next sentence. Are you saying that Christians and the Bible disagree with each other, or disagree with Islam?
 
Perhaps an example would help.
 
Hi Joe,
what I mean is that in any religion those two points are the most important one:
One, how you define and believe who God is, and second: How you achieve salvation, to be successfull in this life and the hereafter.
I say that in my study and knowledge, Christians and the Bible disagree on those two points within themselves.
For example (as you asked for one): God, who God is, according to Christians I have talked to believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of God, the Bible contradicts that as God is quoted to have more begotten sons throughout the Bible. Then they say that Jesus is God, and through my study I find that Jesus infact has admitted to have a God. I heard they say that all three part of God (trinity) are equal in power, I find in the Bible Jesus admitting that God (father) is greater than him.
So many more, but this is enough to explain what I meant.
Take care,
Hasan
 
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: jusaskin
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 12:13pm
Hasan,
 
I know you are sincere in your belief, and desire to help others see things the way you do .... believing it to be the only true way. But the one thing you are unable to do is to understand what you read in the Christian Bible.
 
I completely understand your logic. The Bible seems to contradict itself in many places, but that's because you read it with an Islamic filter. Even without that filter you can miss the real messages without the very attitude you recommended to me in a different post ... "with open eyes,mind and heart".
 
You cannot hear Jesus as man, Prophet, Son of God, Redeemer, Messiah, the firstborn of a new generation, etc. because you can only hear Him as He is presented in the Quran. You don't understand that He can say that God is His God when He speaks as an ordinary human being on earth (which He was), and then later speak of Himself as mankind's Redeemer, or accept worship from others, of do/say the many things that show Him to be God's Son. He speaks as the ONLY begotten Son, but you don't know how to rightly understand what that means because the Quran rejects it.
 
We could dispute these things forever, but you will not convince me, nor will I convince you. The fundamental difference we have is our sincere belief in our own Scripture; likewise I believe we have a fundamental commonality .... our love for God. Only God can judge our soul, and I am content to leave it up to Him. I trust one day (if that be the right term) that we will meet in the hereafter and God will have shown us how and why we differed. Until then .... peace to you!


-------------
joe


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 7:19pm

"We have the situation in the Bible where nothing can be verified as "authentic" if we must produce a document that claims to be written by Jesus, and it seems that would be the only authenticity that would satisfy a Muslim. Christians are convinced that our Scripture is accurate enough to convey the intended message of God through Jesus, and I am puzzled by how a Muslim can differentiate between what is "authentic" in our Scripture, and what is not."

While the Prophet Mohammed did not personally write the Quran, he was unlettered, he was alive and personally conveyed the Word of God as he received it.
 
Muslims believe that the Bible, especially the New Testament, cannot be authenticated for a number of reasons. First, the authors of the Gospels are unknown. Second, the Gospels were written long after the death of Jesus.  Third, and most important, the Bible has numerous contradictions, the true Word of God would never contradict itself.  Even within the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the purported story of the life of Jesus, God incarnate, there are contradictions.
 
It is not that Muslims demand a document written by Jesus, although if an authentic document where he claims to be God on earth could be produced that would be great and would solve a lot of problems, it is more that we cannot accept the inaccurate word of man as that of God.
 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 6:42am
How do you know if a messanger is authentic? 
 
We know that the Gospels were written by the Disciples of Christ within their lifetime, but not Jesus'. 
 
Actually if you carefully study the Bible you would see that all supposed contradictions can be explained.
 
This is sort of reverse reasoning - What many people don't understand is that the people of the time believed that Jesus was acting and saying things that equated Himself with GOD.  If He was lying then He was not a good prophet.!!

The following dates are not always exact, but are very good estimates.

Old Testament
 
Book

Author

Date Written

Genesis Moses ? - 1445 B.C.
Exodus Moses 1445 - 1405 B.C.
Leviticus Moses 1405 B.C.
Numbers Moses 1444 - 1405 B.C.
Deuteronomy Moses 1405 B.C.
Joshua Joshua 1404-1390 B.C.
Judges Samuel 1374-1129 B.C.
Ruth Samuel 1150? B.C.
First Samuel Samuel 1043-1011 B.C.
Second Samuel Ezra? 1011-1004 B.C.
First Kings Jeremiah? 971-852 B.C.
Second Kings Jeremiah? 852-587 B.C.
First Chronicles Ezra? 450 - 425 B.C.
Second Chronicles Ezra? 450 - 425 B.C.
Ezra Ezra 538-520 B.C.
Nehemiah Nehemiah 445 - 425 B.C.
Esther Mordecai? 465 B.C.
Job Job? ??
Psalms David 1000? B.C.

Sons of Korah wrote Psalms 42, 44-49, 84-85, 87; Asaph wrote Psalms 50, 73-83; Heman wrote Psalm 88; Ethan wrote Psalm 89; Hezekiah wrote Psalms 120-123, 128-130, 132, 134-136;
Solomon wrote Psalms 72, 127.

Proverbs Solomon wrote 1-29
Agur wrote 30
Lemuel wrote 31
950 - 700 B.C.
Ecclesiastes Solomon 935 B.C.
Song of Solomon Solomon 965 B.C.
Isaiah Isaiah 740 - 680 B.C.
Jeremiah Jeremiah 627 - 585 B.C.
Lamentations Jeremiah 586 B.C.
Ezekiel Ezekiel 593-560 B.C.
Daniel Daniel 605-536 B.C.
Hosea Hosea 710 B.C.
Joel

Joel

835 B.C.
Amos

Amos

755 B.C.
Obadiah

Obadiah

840 or 586 B.C.
Jonah

Jonah

760 B.C.
Micah

Micah

700 B.C.
Nahum

Nahum

663 - 612 B.C.
Habakkuk

Habakkuk

607 B.C.
Zephaniah

Zephaniah

625 B.C.
Haggai

Haggai

520 B.C.
Zechariah

Zechariah

520 - 518 B.C.
Malachi

Malachi

450 - 600 B.C.



New Testament

Book

Author

Date Written (A.D)

Matthew Matthew 60's
Mark John Mark late 50's
early 60's
Luke Luke 60
John John late 80's
early 90's
Acts Luke 61
Romans Paul 55
1 Corinthians Paul 54
2 Corinthians Paul 55
Galatians Paul 49
Ephesians Paul 60
Philippians Paul 61
Colossians Paul 60
1 Thessalonians Paul 50 - 51
2 Thessalonians Paul 50 - 51
1 Timothy Paul 62
2 Timothy Paul 63
Titus Paul 62
Philemon Paul 60
Hebrews (Paul, Apollos, Barnabas...?) 60's
James James, half brother of Jesus 40's or 50's
1 Peter Peter 63
2 Peter Peter 63 - 64
1 John John late 80's
early 90's
2 John John late 80's
early 90's
3 John John late 80's
early 90's
Jude Jude, half brother of Jesus 60's or 70's
Revelation John late 80's
early 90's


-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 3:23pm
Theologians almost universally believe that the authors of the Gospels are unknown and that they were written after the death of Jesus. Most of the books of the New Testament are attributed to Paul, who never even met Jesus.
 
I could cut and paste alot of material to support what I say, but anyone who has studied the subject knows this to be true, and if not, then all you have to do is Google it...


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: relaxjack
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 7:51am
Originally posted by jusaskin

A few questions please, since I have read and heard different opinions on the following:

1.Is it correct to say that each word in the Quran was told to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel, who received the words from God? And that Muhammad received these message at different times, and being illiterate, he passed them on to someone who could write?

That is correct.
 
Originally posted by jusaskin

2. Is the Quran compiled according to some particular order? If the order is not according to when it was received, has this order ever been determined .... in other words, is there an index according to when the verses were received?
There is a hadith from Ibn Abu Dawud which says
 
Uthman replied: When the verses of the Qur'an were revealed to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), he called someone to write them down for him and said to him: Put this verse in the surah in which such and such has been mentioned; and when one or two verses were revealed, he used to say similarly (regarding them).
 
The above indicates the order of the Quran was determined during the Prophet's lifetime.
 
Originally posted by jusaskin

3. How is the Quran supposed to be read as relating to the existing scriptures of the Jews and Christians? Does the Quran supersede, amend or in some other manner link itself to those writings? Where can this be found in the Quran?

The Quran is the continuation and final revelation given to earlier prophets. The Quran says it is the Furqan (the Criterion) between Truth and Falsehood. As such, Muslims use the Quran to distinguish what is true in the bible and what is not true written in the bible.
 
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (Surah Al-Maedah 5:48)
Originally posted by jusaskin

 
4. A question I asked in another post but have not received an answer .... what is meant by "the Book" and "people of the Book", in the Quran?
In the context of the Quran, 'People of the Book' refers to the Christians and the Jews who hold the bible. The bible is not the original Injeel and Taurat, but the essence of the earlier revelations can still be found in their scriptures. Muslims believe the bible contains Truth plus many writings which are not true. The Quran therefore is used as a Furqan to distinguish the Truth from the Error. 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by jusaskin

Hasan,
 
I know you are sincere in your belief, and desire to help others see things the way you do .... believing it to be the only true way. But the one thing you are unable to do is to understand what you read in the Christian Bible.
 
I completely understand your logic. The Bible seems to contradict itself in many places, but that's because you read it with an Islamic filter. Even without that filter you can miss the real messages without the very attitude you recommended to me in a different post ... "with open eyes,mind and heart".
 
You cannot hear Jesus as man, Prophet, Son of God, Redeemer, Messiah, the firstborn of a new generation, etc. because you can only hear Him as He is presented in the Quran. You don't understand that He can say that God is His God when He speaks as an ordinary human being on earth (which He was), and then later speak of Himself as mankind's Redeemer, or accept worship from others, of do/say the many things that show Him to be God's Son. He speaks as the ONLY begotten Son, but you don't know how to rightly understand what that means because the Quran rejects it.
 
We could dispute these things forever, but you will not convince me, nor will I convince you. The fundamental difference we have is our sincere belief in our own Scripture; likewise I believe we have a fundamental commonality .... our love for God. Only God can judge our soul, and I am content to leave it up to Him. I trust one day (if that be the right term) that we will meet in the hereafter and God will have shown us how and why we differed. Until then .... peace to you!
 
Hi Joe,
good to see that you are back. And peace be with you too.
I must say that it is our duty to varify and sort out things here. Because it will be too late later. 
I would like to correct you that I did not read the Bible through an Islamic filter. I will not be truthful to myself if I did that. Years ago when I started looking into it. I was shocked to see the same messege that I knew in Islam (at that time I was not a learned believer) but then I could see passages that could not go along the rest neither the logic. I had more respect for it  before I knew it. Now as the truth of its contents have exposed to me I cannot say the same now.
One thing further if I may say, never have God came as a incarnation(s) on the earth, in a man or various forms but only according to the Pagans.
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"



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