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"triple point" in physics

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Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12059
Printed Date: 25 October 2014 at 12:14am


Topic: "triple point" in physics
Posted By: believer
Subject: "triple point" in physics
Date Posted: 19 March 2008 at 4:47pm

Water, under certain precise conditions of pressure and temperature, enters a triple state wherein it simultaneously and continuously passes to and from liquid to solid to gaseous forms, each of which is really 'water', and yet has its own identity.

The analogy with the simultaneous trinitarian nature of the godhead is obvious.

Likewise the two forms of light, wave and particle, suggest analogies with the two natures, divine and human, of Jesus; these are equally real and simultaneously operative, and yet we cannot fully focus on both at the same time.



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



Replies:
Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 19 March 2008 at 7:25pm

This is a ridiculous analogy for the Trinity.....

Read some of Peter Abelard's writings on the Trinity to know how to defend the trinitarian argument.



Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 19 March 2008 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by believer

Water, under certain precise conditions of pressure and temperature, enters a triple state wherein it simultaneously and continuously passes to and from liquid to solid to gaseous forms, each of which is really 'water', and yet has its own identity.

The analogy with the simultaneous trinitarian nature of the godhead is obvious.

That would mean the nature of it is the same and the identity is different like Father and son. Is the nature of the father and son are the same?

Jesus said: "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone."
( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:18&version=9 - Mark 10:18 )

According to Jesus (S) he confesses that he is not good!

tnc



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 19 March 2008 at 9:35pm

Science and religion never mix

Not so long ago church was trying to kill science [galileo, anyone?]

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Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 19 March 2008 at 10:15pm

Originally posted by ak_m_f


Science and religion never mix

Not so long ago church was trying to kill science [galileo, anyone?]

 I am not sure on that one, I think you should follow this link: http://www.miraclesofthequran.com - www.miraclesofthequran.com

tnc

 

 

 



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 20 March 2008 at 12:28am

correct me if I am wrong

I don't think that Quran ever claimed to be book of science, It is a book of guidance.


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Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 20 March 2008 at 6:11am
Originally posted by believer

Water, under certain precise conditions of pressure and temperature, enters a triple state wherein it simultaneously and continuously passes to and from liquid to solid to gaseous forms, each of which is really 'water', and yet has its own identity.

The analogy with the simultaneous trinitarian nature of the godhead is obvious.

Likewise the two forms of light, wave and particle, suggest analogies with the two natures, divine and human, of Jesus; these are equally real and simultaneously operative, and yet we cannot fully focus on both at the same time.

Your analogy implies modalism. It is a heresy according to most church doctrines.



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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 20 March 2008 at 2:33pm

Originally posted by ak_m_f


correct me if I am wrong

I don't think that Quran ever claimed to be book of science, It is a book of guidance.

 You are right that Quran is not a book for science. But tnc is right about not agreeing with you.

 Part of your post was right about Galileo and the anti-science attitude of the church. The matter about science and Quran can be understood as follows:

 The science or nature is the work of God (Allah). He has created or made the nature and its rules (laws) etc. The entire Universe is the work of God in which the laws of science are applying. The laws are also made by Allah.

 The Science is the work of God and the Quran is the word of God. There is no difference in the work (Kaam) of God and the word (Kalaam) of God. God will not say something else and do something else. There is no disparity between His work and His word.

 In that we say that whatever is described in the Quran, even though it is not as a text book of science, whatever is described is according to science. Or, at least the science has not been able to disprove anything that is stated in the Quran. Rather most of the scientific truths are described in the Quran.

 I will give just one very small example: The scientists are struggling to find life in other planets. They are looking for water in the other planets first. Why?? Because they know that if there will be water there will be life. And please remember that Quran says about it: "We have created every living thing from water". See Below:

 [21:30] Do not the disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed up-mass, then We opened them out? And We made of water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Then there is mention of creating everything in pairs. See below:

 

[51:48] And the earth We have spread out, and how excellently do We spread it out!
[51:49] And of everything have We created pairs that you may reflect.

 Also:

 78:8] And We have created you in pairs.

 These and many other things are described in the Quran and science admits those things.



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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 20 March 2008 at 11:22pm

Salaam!

Originally posted by minuteman

 The Science is the work of God and the Quran is the word of God. There is no difference in the work (Kaam) of God and the word (Kalaam) of God. God will not say something else and do something else. There is no disparity between His work and His word.

Masha Allah Bro. You put it in a nut shell!

TNC.



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 21 March 2008 at 5:02pm

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God.  It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms.  Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times.  At the incarnation, the mode was the Son.  After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit.  These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous.  In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another.  Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.  Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches.  They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation.  These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods.  This is not what the Trinity is.  The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons:  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 



-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 2:49am
Originally posted by believer

At the incarnation, the mode was the Son.  These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous.  In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another.  Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three

when he was in the "son mode" he was week? He said, he is not "good" and also seperate himself from the "father mode"

And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone."
( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:18&version=9 - Mark 10:18 )

He said: “I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.” (John.5:30)

“For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”  ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:49&version=9 - John 12:49 )

 

Who is Jesus (pbuh) Father?

 

Jesus (pbuh) said: “…Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and my God, and your God.” ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:16-17%20&version=9 - John 20:16-17 AKJV)

 

According to him, his Father is “OUR GOD and HIS GOD; He has a GOD, He said: “MY GOD AND YOUR GOD.”

thc



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 8:04am
Originally posted by believer

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God.  It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms.  Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times.  At the incarnation, the mode was the Son.  After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit.  These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous.  In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another.  Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.  Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches.  They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation.  These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods.  This is not what the Trinity is.  The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons:  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 

You are not understanding what you are reading. The various states of water, regardless of their states, are still water (H2O).



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 8:18am
Originally posted by believer

Likewise the two forms of light, wave and particle, suggest analogies with the two natures, divine and human, of Jesus; these are equally real and simultaneously operative, and yet we cannot fully focus on both at the same time.

Quick note: The notion that light has wave like and particle like behavior does not mean that it is both wave and particle. The consensus by such greats as the late Richard Feynman (spelling) conclude it is a particle. These trinity analogies are great for those who already believe and they entertain the masses at a sunday sermon, but they hold no real value in the arena of discourse.



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by believer

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God.  It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms.  Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times.  At the incarnation, the mode was the Son.  After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit.  These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous.  In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another.  Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.  Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches.  They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation.  These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods.  This is not what the Trinity is.  The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons:  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. 

You are not understanding what you are reading. The various states of water, regardless of their states, are still water (H2O).

Or is you who don't understand what you are saying? There are two point here:  First is: the (states: gass, liquid and solid) and that is "IDENTITY". Secondly: the (contents or nature of it) and that is (H20).

Now, The "first state" is father son and holy ghost as you claimed but are they the same as the "second and most important is the one in nature (like the H20)? Let's examine it: 

 

1-  Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”  AND Luke 18:19 Jesus said ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

Here the nature of God is Good and Jesus (S) is the opposit not good!

2-  John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

Here in nature the Father is more great and Jesus (S) is less great!

3-  John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

Here he is powerless but God Almighty is all powreful!

4-  Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Here his Knowledge is limited but God Almighty is the all knowing!

5-  Even in the Old Testament, the foretold Prophet, Jesus, was said to have the Spirit of Fearing GOD Almighty in him:

  Isaiah 11:1-3
"1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD
(Jesus fearing his GOD)--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears;"

Here  Jesus (S) fearful but God Almighty is not fearful!

I don't know about your god, but my GOD Almighty doesn't fear anything! 

tnc



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 2:17pm

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by believer

Likewise the two forms of light, wave and particle, suggest analogies with the two natures, divine and human, of Jesus; these are equally real and simultaneously operative, and yet we cannot fully focus on both at the same time.

Quick note: The notion that light has wave like and particle like behavior does not mean that it is both wave and particle. The consensus by such greats as the late Richard Feynman (spelling) conclude it is a particle. These trinity analogies are great for those who already believe and they entertain the masses at a sunday sermon, but they hold no real value in the arena of discourse.

"light has wave like and particle like behavior does not mean that it is both wave and particle."

  You have miss understand this phrase " wave and particle like behaviorthat is a descriptive phrase or we can say "two attributes" wave like behavior and particle like behavior” also it a way to describe light "as particles".

  Let me give you an example: If we say “God” is has no power without the attributes: like God the Almighty the all powerful, the all wise and so on; it is ways to describe God Almighty. If you don’t know the attributes it is just a word.

tnc



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 3:22pm

1-  Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”  AND Luke 18:19 Jesus said ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

Does Jesus say I am not good?   NO!! He doesn't.  If you were to read this as  - WHY?!? do you call me good, you would see that Jesus is asking the man to think, what is good and WHY?

Jesus says:

John 10

11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

2-  John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

Here in nature the Father is more great and Jesus (S) is less great!

Hebrews 2

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Philippians 2 

 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
 6Who, being in very nature God,
      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
 7but made himself nothing,
      taking the very nature of a servant,
      being made in human likeness.
 8And being found in appearance as a man,
      he humbled himself
      and became obedient to death—
         even death on a cross!

3-  John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

Here he is powerless but God Almighty is all powreful!

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit work together in unity as the One True GOD.  One is not greater then the other or greater then GOD by Themselves.

4-  Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Remember Jesus has 2 natures.    His human nature would not be all knowing.

5-  Even in the Old Testament, the foretold Prophet, Jesus, was said to have the Spirit of Fearing GOD Almighty in him:

  Isaiah 11:1-3
"1. A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him (Jesus)-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of
counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD
(Jesus fearing his GOD)
--
3. and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or
decide by what he hears with his ears;"

This is the mindset God wanted brought to us.  Remember we discussed the seven fold Holy Spirit.



-------------
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by believer

1-  Mark 10:18 Jesus said “And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”  AND Luke 18:19 Jesus said ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

Does Jesus say I am not good?   NO!! He doesn't.  If you were to read this as  - WHY?!? do you call me good, you would see that Jesus is asking the man to think, what is good and WHY?

Jesus says:

John 10

11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

You splicing to make your point. Let's read it in context:

  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:17-18&version=9 - Mark 10: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:17-18&version=9 - 17-18 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

You see, he adresses Jesus (S) as "Good Master" and he denied being good in the next verse: 

18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Originally posted by believer

2-  John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

Here in nature the Father is more great and Jesus (S) is less great!

Hebrews 2

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

That contradicted the (H20)

 

Originally posted by believer

 Philippians 2 

 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
 6Who, being in very nature God,
      did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
 7but made himself nothing,
      taking the very nature of a servant,
      being made in human likeness.
 8And being found in appearance as a man,
      he humbled himself
      and became obedient to death—
         even death on a cross!

What nature you are talking about? When he don't have devine knowledge on the hour?

 

Originally posted by believer

 3-  John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"

Here he is powerless but God Almighty is all powreful!

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit work together in unity as the One True GOD.  One is not greater then the other or greater then GOD by Themselves.

You are contradicting youe self! If the The Father, Son and Holy Spirit work together in unity as the One True GOD. What happen here:  Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

What happen to the "unity"?

This is your answer conveniently:

Originally posted by believer

 4-  Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

Remember Jesus has 2 natures.  His human nature would not be all knowing.

So what happen to the "H20" Nature?

tnc

 



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LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 5:14pm

Hi believer,

after reading what you keep writing here and there on this board, I suggest you change your name to "disbeliever". You seem to deny every proof and truth shown to you.

It is ridiculas to say that until Jesus' time God was not fully known or understood to all of those prophets of God.

Accept the truth before you are struck by it. Be a true believer, or just change your name.

Gracias

Hasan



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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Andalus
Date Posted: 22 March 2008 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by believer

Likewise the two forms of light, wave and particle, suggest analogies with the two natures, divine and human, of Jesus; these are equally real and simultaneously operative, and yet we cannot fully focus on both at the same time.

Quick note: The notion that light has wave like and particle like behavior does not mean that it is both wave and particle. The consensus by such greats as the late Richard Feynman (spelling) conclude it is a particle. These trinity analogies are great for those who already believe and they entertain the masses at a sunday sermon, but they hold no real value in the arena of discourse.

"light has wave like and particle like behavior does not mean that it is both wave and particle."

  You have miss understand this phrase " wave and particle like behaviorthat is a descriptive phrase or we can say "two attributes" wave like behavior and particle like behavior” also it a way to describe light "as particles".

  Let me give you an example: If we say “God” is has no power without the attributes: like God the Almighty the all powerful, the all wise and so on; it is ways to describe God Almighty. If you don’t know the attributes it is just a word.

tnc

I am not following your point Br. Perhaps you have misunderstood my point? I was simply pointing out that the Christian was misusing the idea of wave/particle duality, which does not actually mean that light is both wave and particle. The consensus is that it is a particle. That is my only point.

 



-------------
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/


Posted By: truthnowcome
Date Posted: 23 March 2008 at 2:15am
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by truthnowcome

Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by believer

Likewise the two forms of light, wave and particle, suggest analogies with the two natures, divine and human, of Jesus; these are equally real and simultaneously operative, and yet we cannot fully focus on both at the same time.

Quick note: The notion that light has wave like and particle like behavior does not mean that it is both wave and particle. The consensus by such greats as the late Richard Feynman (spelling) conclude it is a particle. These trinity analogies are great for those who already believe and they entertain the masses at a sunday sermon, but they hold no real value in the arena of discourse.

"light has wave like and particle like behavior does not mean that it is both wave and particle."

  You have miss understand this phrase " wave and particle like behaviorthat is a descriptive phrase or we can say "two attributes" wave like behavior and particle like behavior” also it a way to describe light "as particles".

  Let me give you an example: If we say “God” is has no power without the attributes: like God the Almighty the all powerful, the all wise and so on; it is ways to describe God Almighty. If you don’t know the attributes it is just a word.

tnc

I am not following your point Br. Perhaps you have misunderstood my point? I was simply pointing out that the Christian was misusing the idea of wave/particle duality, which does not actually mean that light is both wave and particle. The consensus is that it is a particle. That is my only point.

 

Salaam! I am sorry Br. I sure did misunderstood you.

Wasalaam!

tnc



-------------
LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!



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