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Jesus’ new commandment

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Religion - Islam
Forum Name: Interfaith Dialogue
Forum Discription: It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims. We encourge that dialogue takes place in a cordial atmosphere on various topics including religious tolerance.
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11922
Printed Date: 28 July 2014 at 1:38pm


Topic: Jesus’ new commandment
Posted By: believer
Subject: Jesus’ new commandment
Date Posted: 04 March 2008 at 7:13pm

John 13:34 

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=24 -  34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



Replies:
Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 05 March 2008 at 3:41am
This is a very fine example of God's continuing instructions to us over the ages, and a very nice 'follow up' to the Ten Commandments. Whilst God directly revealed the ten Commandments to Moses, He uses his messengers to reveal further instructions, in this case Jesus. All religions would believe in this commandment. Whilst religions could dispute when and how such instructions come about today, one thing we should all remember- God may or may not use messengers today, but He can and does guide/talk to us all as individuals in our current lives

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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 07 March 2008 at 10:10pm

Why is Allah so often called The Most Compassionate, Most Merciful? Because He knows that we sin very easily. It is not easy to love each and everyone of us, even though this is the basic teachings of all religions.

He is also AtTawab - The Accepter of Repentance. He said in Hadis Qudsi, If my servant take a step towards me, I will run to him.

Alhamdulillah - Praise be to Allah.



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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 March 2008 at 5:19pm

Nur_Ilahi

Lol!  "not easy to love each and everyone of us"  You've got that right!



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 09 April 2008 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by believer

John 13:34 

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=24 -  34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Hi believer,

no doubt that God's love and Mercy never ceases, and the message He gave to mankind always have that component in it.

Your quote certainly refelects that thought, however what puzzles me is this quote in Matthew 10:

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[e]

Hasan



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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: monasjazz
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 2:55am

 

dear believer ..
 
34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another
 
that does mean that you also love Muhammad ..
 
tell me ..and be honest , are you loved Muhammad ?

Smile

.

 

 



Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 12:00pm
honeto-  It is not what Jesus wanted , He was telling us what was in store.  Jesus was right, look at the hatred aimed at Christians.
 
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59631&FID=10 - monasjazz - Yes, we are to love the sinner, but that does not mean that we love the sin or that the sin does not go unpunished. 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: monasjazz
Date Posted: 10 April 2008 at 8:57pm
Originally posted by believer

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59631&FID=10 - monasjazz - Yes, we are to love the sinner, but that does not mean that we love the sin or that the sin does not go unpunished. 
 
well, I think it is a good idea to love all human ( the children of Adam, becuase they all seems look like as your brotherhood as human being  ) eventhough they are a sinner .. but could you to exposing your reasoning for this case ?
 
tell me ..
 
Wink
 
 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 11 April 2008 at 11:16am
Hi believer,
you say "It is not what Jesus wanted "
Two issues with that statement of yours:
One, according to the quote, Jesus is not guessing what will happen rather he is declaring a statement, saying: " Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household."
 
Second: (whe you say, "It is not what Jesus wanted")
Are you admiting the all power nature of God while not all powerful nature of Jesus.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 12 April 2008 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by believer

honeto-  It is not what Jesus wanted , He was telling us what was in store.  Jesus was right, look at the hatred aimed at Christians.
 
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59631&FID=10 - monasjazz - Yes, we are to love the sinner, but that does not mean that we love the sin or that the sin does not go unpunished. 
 
 
So you're interpretation of this Verse is that Jesus was predicting that His teachings would cause wars? Cause families and nations to turn against each other?


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 2:39am
 Believer is saying that Jesus did not know what he was talking about. The words of Jesus are clear that he had not come to make peace in the world. But believer is giving different meaning to it as if Jesus did not know what he was trying to say. Why not believer believe that Jesus had not come to make peace in the world? Why be ashamed of it?
 
 Even though we Muslims need not blame Jesus for anything. But we would not allow believer to twist the meanings.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 13 April 2008 at 7:16am
LOL!!  I can't believe how hard it is for you to understand.  
 
GOD gave us free will to choose our path. 
 
Jesus was giving ALL the gift of salvation.  Jesus was ready this is what He wanted.
 
People chose to fight against each other, not believe,  not allow the believers to follow Jesus. 
 
minuteman - you are putting words in my mouth.  Is this the type of lying allowed by Mohammad/Allah?  Are you laughing to yourself thinking you are so witty talking badly about Jesus?  GOD forgive you.
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by believer

LOL!!  I can't believe how hard it is for you to understand.  
 
GOD gave us free will to choose our path. 
 
Jesus was giving ALL the gift of salvation.  Jesus was ready this is what He wanted.
 
People chose to fight against each other, not believe,  not allow the believers to follow Jesus. 
 
minuteman - you are putting words in my mouth.  Is this the type of lying allowed by Mohammad/Allah?  Are you laughing to yourself thinking you are so witty talking badly about Jesus?  GOD forgive you.
 
 
believer,
I think what Jesus is refered here to say is wrongly associated with him. I believe a prophet (let alone a prince of peace) will never announce, yes that's what he is doing here,announcing that:
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’
I think its more clear than what you are trying to say.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 14 April 2008 at 7:20pm
Maybe if you read the whole chapter:
 
Matthew 10
Jesus Sends Out the Twelve
 1He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

 2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.

 5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.

 11"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. 12As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

 17"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. 18On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

 21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

 24"A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!

 26"So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

 32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

 34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
   " 'a man against his father,
      a daughter against her mother,
   a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
    36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

 37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

 40"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."



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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 3:08pm
Hi believer,
I still do not see your title stand up to what is written in these verses. You are trying to say, when you started this topic, " Jesus' new commandment" which you claim is peace and love, as I have heard Christians often proclaim him as, the prince of peace.
These quotes certainly do not support that claim, if that's what you were getting at. Jesus' new commandment, "love one another" or peace. These verses regardless of reading the whole book don't change the perception they give. 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:17pm
NO kidding!!!  LOL!!  Jesus told man to love one another- He was prophesying that they would not!!  LOL!! 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 7:36am
Originally posted by believer

NO kidding!!!  LOL!!  Jesus told man to love one another- He was prophesying that they would not!!  LOL!! 
 
He stated that he brought the sword. If he were the Prince of Peace he would have presented himself and beliefs in such a way that would not have caused such dissention. 
 
If his sole mission was to come here as saviour of mankind, then why not do it correctly?  He was God, after all.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:52pm
"If he were the Prince of Peace he would have presented himself and beliefs in such a way that would not have caused such dissention."
 
HOW?
 
I believe that it was done correctly.  


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:04pm
Hi beleiver,
Shasta's Aunt brings another good point, which in turn brings us to another contradiction of the followers of the Bible. In fact according to the Bible Jesus' death on the cross paid for not just their (those who claim to follow him) sins, but the sins of the whole world. And remember this verse says for the whole world, no one excuded!
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=2&verse=2&version=9&context=verse - 1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by believer

"If he were the Prince of Peace he would have presented himself and beliefs in such a way that would not have caused such dissention."
 
HOW?
 
I believe that it was done correctly.  
 
And yet people still do not believe he was God or the son of God. They do not even believe he was the Messiah, for whom they were waiting.  They fight over religion and even within Christianity there is disagreement and division.  Apparently something went very awry.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:47pm
Shasta- HOW?  How would you have done it in a better way?  correct way?
 
YES!!  MAN is the problem they don't see the beautiful gift from GOD that is right in front of their face.  So often the disagreements are very st**id, I am glad the majority of us think of other Christian denominations as just following a different expression of Christianity.
 
honeto - Not sure what you are saying, but Yes! Jesus died for the sins of all of mankind, Mohammad, Osama bin Laden, me, you, Abraham, minuteman, etc.
 
GOD is just, evil is done a price must be paid, He sacrificed His Son and we are all saved.  It is really very simple. 
 
You choose to believe or not.  I just want you to understand what Christians believe.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 6:17pm
believer,
you said," GOD is just, evil is done a price must be paid, He sacrificed His Son and we are all saved.  It is really very simple"
 
beleiver I thought you said  he was God in human form, now you say God sent his son for sacrifice??
 
Are you going in circles again??
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 6:45pm
lol!
 
honeto, look at it this way. When Muhammed was revealing quranic verses, he wasn't coming from himself but of God (not being God so don't mistake me please) and at other times he was himself. So its possible that its the same for Jesus.


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 16 April 2008 at 6:47pm
I think some people get mixed with the saying, when Jesus, says I am god we are gods its not God God, its the presentation of the "g" "G"

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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 2:19am
"Shasta- HOW?  How would you have done it in a better way?  correct way?"
 
Well, I can't speak from experience,  but if I were who you claim Jesus to be, I would proclaim it so that all would know my mission. You know, like all of the Prophets and Messengers have done, except apparently Jesus who kept his true identity and mission a secret.
 
You know, Noah built a huge ark and warned everyone that the flood was coming. Moses gave Pharoah and the Egyptians numerous chances to free the Jews and go in peace.  Lot went into Sodom and Gamorrah and searched for any righteous people in order to save the cities from God's wrath.  Etc....
 
All of the Prophets and Messengers of God made it quite clear who they were and what their message was. They told anyone and everyone, didn't matter if they were believed or how much they were persecuted.  Because God told them to do so.
 
Yet God incarnate, comes to earth on the most important quest of all, to save all of mankind, and just doesn't tell anybody.  Is so secretive that 2000 years after his "death" people still can't agree on what happened. Even the Gospels, the story of his own life, are contradictary. 
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Because God told them to do so.
 
and yet here lies the issue, God told them so but obviously it was different when it came to Jesus, God did things different. And to ask why God did so, is one that you need to propose to God. Smile
 
You saying that what was done before had to keep continuing. But if God had a plan and he did, then God carried it out.
 
Yet God incarnate, comes to earth on the most important quest of all, to save all of mankind, and just doesn't tell anybody.  Is so secretive that 2000 years after his "death" people still can't agree on what happened. Even the Gospels, the story of his own life, are contradictary. 
 
Perhaps God had his reasons for not telling everybody.


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 8:37pm
You know you can keep on asking these types of questions but there is no real answer. That's life. Everyone has there record. Just because it doesn't match the other doesn't make it any less truthful.
 
As said, I do have my own beliefs.


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 17 April 2008 at 11:52pm
"Perhaps God had his reasons for not telling everybody."
 
Perhaps, but if the purpose was the salvation of all of mankind through the acceptance of Jesus as the Lord God, then it should have been made clear.  Otherwise what was the point?


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 April 2008 at 5:18am
Shasta' aunt- maybe at your life's end you will understand and accept.  It does not matter if you don't accept until the end.
 
I am not sure about the contradictions you mention.  Jesus was crucified.
 
LOL!! honeto- Jesus incarnate in human form born of a woman-is SON, one of the manifestations of GOD.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by Angel

You know you can keep on asking these types of questions but there is no real answer. That's life. Everyone has there record. Just because it doesn't match the other doesn't make it any less truthful.
 
As said, I do have my own beliefs.
Hi Angel,
if something is unclear to us and we are unsure about it, we are told in Islam to not to follow and pursue it, since there is a chance we may fall in error.  Thus we are commanded only to pursue what is made clear to us by God himself.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 19 April 2008 at 8:18pm

Did God send the Messengers, Prophets, and His Word as a guidance to all of mankind?

If you answer yes to this then you must ask yourself, why?   Personally I assume it was because God wanted mankind to follow His Word and be righteous. God has told us very clearly that those who follow His Word and guidance will be rewarded with paradise, or heaven, if you will. He has also told us very clearly that those who do not follow His Word and guidance will be punished.

Since this is the only criterion that God has set up for us, then I also personally assume that is why God sent us so many Messengers and Prophets, Holy Writs, and clear signs of His existence. How else would we know what to follow to either please Him or reject Him.
 
So, how can it be that God would expect us to follow His Word, yet keep that Word a secret?  We cannot follow something we do not know. If this is the case, then how can we be judged by this criterion?  How can we be punished for something that was kept secret or not made extremely clear?
 
I think that God wants us to be righteous and follow His Word. I think that throughout time God has sent various Messengers and Prophets and Holy Writs to guarantee that mankind would understand what He expected of us, and make very clear what would happen if we did not follow what was expected of us.  
 
So how can it be that our only source of salvation, accepting Jesus as Lord, would be kept a secret from us or shrouded in such mystery, confusion, and contradiction that people wouldn't know what to believe?  Don't you believe God wants to us to know the right path for forgiveness and eternity in paradise?


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 April 2008 at 2:33pm

Acts 17

 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

We need to keep seeking and searching for GOD.
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 April 2008 at 11:49am
Originally posted by believer

Acts 17

 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

We need to keep seeking and searching for GOD.
 
 
 
Hi beleiver,
what Paul's words you quoted all seem to be in agreement with Islamic teachings, except verse 28 where it says: "As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring."
Now remember Paul is talking to the Pagans of Athens here according to an earlier verse. So Paul is taking a Pagan idea and applying it to what he is preaching in the verse, strange??
 
I also find very interesting the verse after, which you did not post:
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."  

Now Paul is using the term God's offspring for all, himself and all the pagan audiences he was addressing.  That is interesting!!!

What I find further interesting is what Paul is saying: That we should not think of God as we did in the past (remember he is talking to pagans) as something confined in man made images of stone, silver, and gold. And he equates such acts as "ignorance"
 
beleiver you said: "We need to keep seeking and searching for GOD."
 
I hope and pray that you be succesful in your sincere search for God.
Hasan
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 24 April 2008 at 4:29am

Thank you.  Right back at you. 

You have probably heard -"the journey is as important as the destination"  or something like that
 
What is the saying?


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by believer

Thank you.  Right back at you. 

You have probably heard -"the journey is as important as the destination"  or something like that
 
What is the saying?
 
 
Hi beleiver,
I am not a language expert to know many proverbs, but what is your response to my post?? what you have to say?
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 28 April 2008 at 6:52pm
the "Right back at you" was for the - "I hope and pray that you be succesful in your sincere search for God"
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 4:00pm
believer,
God knows what was in yur heart!!


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by honeto

believer,
God knows what was in yur heart!!
Believer's use of a modern English slang expression may have created a misunderstanding.  Just so you know, honeto: "Right back at you" means "And I wish the same for you"; i.e., that you too are successful in your search for God.Smile


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 02 May 2008 at 3:00pm

Yes Ron is right!!

 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: relaxjack
Date Posted: 04 May 2008 at 7:21am
Originally posted by believer

John 13:34 

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=24 -  34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Few questions which I hope you could reply:
 
1) Who were Jesus enemies, according to the Bible?
 
2) According to the bible, Jesus told his followers to love their enemies:
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you... (Matthew 5:4)
 
3) How did the bible describes Jesus loving his enemies?
 
Matt. 23:17, 27 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?..."Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
Matt. 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
4) In what way was the commandment to love thy enemies different from the actual treatment of Jesus' enemies... according to the bible? 


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 5:12am
for the enemies of Jesus:
 
John 8
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

 13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

 14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

 19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

   "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

 21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

 22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

 23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26395a - a ] you will indeed die in your sins."

 25"Who are you?" they asked.

   "Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

 27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

The Children of Abraham
 31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

 33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26404b - b ] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

 34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26409c - c ]"

 39"Abraham is our father," they answered.

   "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208;&version=31;#fen-NIV-26411d - d ] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
      "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

 
John 10
22Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

 33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

 34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

 40Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. Here he stayed 41and many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a miraculous sign, all that John said about this man was true." 42And in that place many believed in Jesus.

 
LOL!!  He did not slaughter them as some religions teach.  He verbally scolded them.  Remember you can hate the sin and love the sinner, punnish the sinner and not kill the sinner.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 3:03pm
beleiver,
let me ask you this before I go to explore each one of those quotes, which ones are from Jesus, the 100% man, and which ones he said as 100% God. I ask that since you have said once, that he was 100% man and 100% God.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: relaxjack
Date Posted: 05 May 2008 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by believer

for the enemies of Jesus:
 LOL!!  He did not slaughter them as some religions teach.  He verbally scolded them.  Remember you can hate the sin and love the sinner, punnish the sinner and not kill the sinner.
1) How do you expect a leader with a small bunch of followers to 'slaughter' his enemies? Remember, the bible does not teach that Jesus was a statesman or military ruler. In the context of the bible, he was just a Messianic priest.
 
2) You have not replied my previous post where I have shown that the bible is not consistent in its message. The bible said that Jesus teach you to love your enemies during the Sermon of the Mount, but yet shows he verbally assaulted some of the Jews (his enemies) and condemned them to hell.
How do you love your enemies by condemning them to hell?


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 07 May 2008 at 7:26pm
You forget Jesus is GOD and GOD makes the rules for us to follow.    
 

An enemy to GOD would be one who is not righteous, possibly a follower of satan/devil-because of GOD's Holiness they can not be in the presence of GOD.

 
God hates treachery, violence, cruelty, callused hypocrisy all the things that knowingly destroy people, community, safety, trust, joy and innocence. 
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 08 May 2008 at 9:22am
'believer' writes:
"You forget Jesus is GOD...."
believer you forgot, that is your un-established claim only.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: relaxjack
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 1:20am
Originally posted by believer

You forget Jesus is GOD and GOD makes the rules for us to follow.    
 

An enemy to GOD would be one who is not righteous, possibly a follower of satan/devil-because of GOD's Holiness they can not be in the presence of GOD.

 
God hates treachery, violence, cruelty, callused hypocrisy all the things that knowingly destroy people, community, safety, trust, joy and innocence. 
 
What the bible writers did was to make Jesus looks like a hypocrite:
 
hypocrite
      n 1: a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she
           does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings
           or motives [syn: hypocrite
 
1) How can Jesus tell his followers to love your enemies yet call his enemies by degradable names and condemned them to hell? Is that not a hypocrotical act?
 
2) btw, Christians believe Jesus was fully man and fully God (which was a contradiction in terms), and what Jesus was reported to have said in the bible would be construed as 'divine' commandments. The bible says Jesus  calls the Pharisees 'hypocrites' (Matt 6:2,5,16) but his action, according to the bible writers, makes him a hypocrite as well.
 
3) You do not see such contradictions in the Quran.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 09 May 2008 at 7:22pm
Originally posted by relaxjack

1) How can Jesus tell his followers to love your enemies yet call his enemies by degradable names and condemned them to hell? Is that not a hypocrotical act?
I don't think so.  Have you never said angry words to someone you love?  As for condemning them to hell, I think Christians would tell you that it is their own actions that condemn them, not Jesus.
 
Personally, I've never understood why a loving God would create a horrible place like hell anyway, especially the God Himself causes people to disbelieve and go astray (see Sura 10:100, 14:4, etc.).
 
3) You do not see such contradictions in the Quran.
Oh, sure you do.  I don't want to digress, but just Google "Quran contradictions" and you'll find dozens, maybe hundreds.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 10 May 2008 at 2:29am
"Oh, sure you do.  I don't want to digress, but just Google "Quran contradictions" and you'll find dozens, maybe hundreds."
 
I actually did just that and the sites I found had lists of verses that were interpreted incorrectly but no contradictions.
 
For example, one list stated that these are a contradiction:
 
17:23 Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour.
 
and
 
9:23 O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
 
What is the contradiction here? You can be kind to your parents even if they are not Muslims without taking them for protectors.
 
Or:
 

79:27 What! Are ye the more difficult to create or the heaven (above)? ((Allah)) hath constructed it:


 

79:28 On high hath He raised its canopy, and He hath given it order and perfection.


 

79:29 Its night doth He endow with darkness, and its splendour doth He bring out (with light).


 

79:30 And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse);

and
 
2:29 It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
 
I'm not even sure what the contradiction is suppose to be here. That one mentions the earth first and one mentions the heavens first, but neither mention which Allah created first, just that He created both....
 
 
 
Perhaps you could point out what you feel is a true contradiction in the Quran.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 10 May 2008 at 5:04am
Don't the contradictions show up between the Medina and Mecca verses?
Doesn't the Quran say that Allah sends a better verse and one is no longer in use- or something like that?
 
We are straying off topic LOL!! so easy to do on these threads.
 
Think of GOD as a loving parent- as a parent don't you make rules that you might not follow because your situation is different then your child's?
 
As a parent don't you punish!?!
 
I would think that GOD has the right to make any rule He wants over His creation!


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 May 2008 at 7:18am
I was going to start a new topic for this, but I may not have time to pursue it so for now I'll just reply briefly here:
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Perhaps you could point out what you feel is a true contradiction in the Quran.
I'm not sure where you got the list you are quoting from, but here is a link to a pretty good discussion of whether disbelieving parents should be treate with love: http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/disbelieving_parents.html - http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/disbelieving_parents.html .  There are several passages that suggest that they should, and several that suggest otherwise.  I don't see how they can all be true.  In particular, it explains that the Arabic word "auliya" means more than just "protector".  It also implies friendship and affection -- otherwise sura 10:62 refers to "protectors of Allah", which would be silly.
 
Actually I made reference to a couple of suras in my previous message that suggest a more fundamental contradiction, though I mangled the message a bit.  As you have asserted in several other discussions, according to the Quran God gives us free will and holds us responsible for our choices; and yet sura 14:4 says that "Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases", and sura 10:100 says that "And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission."  So if I don't believe in Allah, is that my doing or His?  If I end up in Hell as a result, is that my fault or His?


Posted By: relaxjack
Date Posted: 10 May 2008 at 8:18am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by relaxjack

1) How can Jesus tell his followers to love your enemies yet call his enemies by degradable names and condemned them to hell? Is that not a hypocrotical act?
I don't think so.  Have you never said angry words to someone you love? 
Yes. But I dont call them by degradable names. According to the bible, Jesus called his enemies, the people whom you said he 'loved', snakes, vipers and children of the devil. Should Christians follow the footsteps of the biblical Jesus by 'loving' their enemies but call them childrean of the devil?
 
Originally posted by Ron Webb

As for condemning them to hell, I think Christians would tell you that it is their own actions that condemn them, not Jesus.
So, are you saying it is right to advocate loving your enemies, on the one hand, and condemning the same people to jehanna, on the other?
 


Posted By: yuzasaf
Date Posted: 10 May 2008 at 2:10pm

Does anybody speak Hungarian here?

Beszél itt valaki magyarul?
 
Yuz Asaf


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 10 May 2008 at 4:49pm
Ronn,
 
Where does it say in these verses that we cannot show kindness to our parents even if they are disbelievers? Even using the term friend instead of protector? There is nothing in The Quran that states that we should turn away, disown, show cruelty, or harm to parents if they are disbelievers. Just not to choose them as friends/protectors.  You can still show them all of the kindness that you want.
 
The Prophet Mohammed's uncle, Abu Talib, who raised him from childhood did not accept Islam and The Prophet still loved him and showed him affection until the day he died.
 
"Let believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful – he that does this has nothing to hope for from God – except in self-defence. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to Him you shall all return." S. 3:28

"Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them.
Say: ‘If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your tribes, the property you have acquired, the merchandise you fear may not be sold, and the homes you love, are dearer to you than God, His apostle and the struggle for His cause, then wait until God shall fulfill His decree. God does not guide the evil-doers.’" S. 9:23-24

"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity." 58:22

Here is part of what comes before this verse:

58:14 Turnest thou not thy attention to those who turn (in friendship) to such as have the Wrath of Allah upon them? They are neither of you nor of them, and they swear to falsehood knowingly.
 
58:16 They have made their oaths a screen (for their misdeeds): thus they obstruct (men) from the Path of Allah. therefore shall they have a humiliating Penalty.
 
These are hypocrits and liars who willfully try to lead you astray. Why would you want to love someone like this, even if they were your parent? BUT, there is still nothing here that says you should not still show them kindness.
 
And I have to honestly say, I would choose my religion over my family if I had to. That does not mean that I would be unkind or cruel, but I would not allow them to try to turn me from my belief in Allah.
 
As for free will, yes, everything is willed by Allah, including the fact that we have free will. So, we could not err or be guided unless Allah chose to allow us the freedom to do so, nor could we believe or disbelieve unless Allah chose to give us the mental capacity and freedom to do so. Allah does not make us believe or disbelieve, He wills that we have the freedom to do so on our own. But we could not do so on our own unless Allah had willed it.  It is with Allah's permission that you are free to choose what you believe, the rest is up to you.
 
 


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 May 2008 at 8:26pm
I can't imagine being unfriendly to my parents, and having them regard that as kindness; but in the interest of brevity let's concentrate on this:
 
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Allah does not make us believe or disbelieve, He wills that we have the freedom to do so on our own.
 
If "Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases," how is that different from making us believe or disbelieve? How could our own wills possibly prevail over Allah's?


Posted By: Ron Webb
Date Posted: 10 May 2008 at 8:55pm
Originally posted by relaxjack

Yes. But I dont call them by degradable names. According to the bible, Jesus called his enemies, the people whom you said he 'loved', snakes, vipers and children of the devil. Should Christians follow the footsteps of the biblical Jesus by 'loving' their enemies but call them childrean of the devil? 
Just because you love somebody doesn't (shouldn't) make you blind to their true character.  A snake is still a snake, even if you love him/her; and there's no point in pretending otherwise.


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 2:59am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by relaxjack

Yes. But I dont call them by degradable names. According to the bible, Jesus called his enemies, the people whom you said he 'loved', snakes, vipers and children of the devil. Should Christians follow the footsteps of the biblical Jesus by 'loving' their enemies but call them childrean of the devil? 
Just because you love somebody doesn't (shouldn't) make you blind to their true character.  A snake is still a snake, even if you love him/her; and there's no point in pretending otherwise.
 
This could easily be said of parents who try to undermine your religious beliefs.  You can still love them and treat them kindly but not take them as protectors, friends, or confidants over those who share and truly follow your faith.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 12 May 2008 at 3:08am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I can't imagine being unfriendly to my parents, and having them regard that as kindness; but in the interest of brevity let's concentrate on this:
 
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt

Allah does not make us believe or disbelieve, He wills that we have the freedom to do so on our own.
 
If "Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases," how is that different from making us believe or disbelieve? How could our own wills possibly prevail over Allah's?
 
I will say unto you like Israfil before you, I have my beliefs, you have yours.
 
"2:286 On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 1:04am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by believer

John 13:34 

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=24 -  34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Hi believer,

no doubt that God's love and Mercy never ceases, and the message He gave to mankind always have that component in it.

Your quote certainly refelects that thought, however what puzzles me is this quote in Matthew 10:

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=50#fen-NKJV-23448e - e ]

Hasan

 
The "SWORD" Jesus was talking about is:-
 
Ephesians 6:17
the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word,
 
 
Isaiah 49:1-2 [ prophecy about Jesus]-
Listen to me, O YOU islands, and pay attention, YOU national groups far away. Jehovah himself has called me even from the belly. From the inward parts of my mother he has made mention of my name. 2 And he proceeded to make my mouth like a sharp sword. . . . [The words of God]
 
 
 
 
Hebrews 4:12-13
For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.
 
Jesus was speaking about spiritual warfare against Satanic words, ideas, etc. and destroying Satanic thinking with the words of the one God.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 May 2008 at 10:55am

Ephesians 6

2"Honor your father and mother"—which is the first commandment with a promise—
It is one of the commandments Shasta

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 21 May 2008 at 9:14am
Robin,
thanks for explaining that verse with another one that does clear that the sword or shields are your belief and faith in it with which you defend yourself agaisnt Satan. That's how we in Islam believe as well.
I see however that Matthew 10:34 refers to sword raised agaist your, brother, mother, father, daughter and so on, while in Ephesian the "sword" is to be raised agaisnt the Satan. Ephesians 6:10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
So I am still puzzled about Matthew 10:34,  not bringing peace, but a sword to raise son agaisnt his father, mother agaisnt daughter and so on, which is opposite to what Evangelists here in the US portray of Jesus as "Prince of Peace".
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 1:23am
Originally posted by honeto

Robin,
thanks for explaining that verse with another one that does clear that the sword or shields are your belief and faith in it with which you defend yourself agaisnt Satan. That's how we in Islam believe as well.
I see however that Matthew 10:34 refers to sword raised agaist your, brother, mother, father, daughter and so on, while in Ephesian the "sword" is to be raised agaisnt the Satan. Ephesians 6:10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
So I am still puzzled about Matthew 10:34,  not bringing peace, but a sword to raise son agaisnt his father, mother agaisnt daughter and so on, which is opposite to what Evangelists here in the US portray of Jesus as "Prince of Peace".
Hasan
 
 

The Word of God divides people one from another into two camps (even in families), for God or against him which put the latter on Satan's side thus there is a spiritual warfare going of on the earth for control over peoples minds and hearts!

 

As Jesus said:-

 

Matthew 12:30

He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.

 

Luke 9:50

But Jesus said to him: “Do not YOU men try to prevent [him], for he that is not against YOU is for YOU.”

 

Luke 11:23

He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.

 
Matthew 10:35-36
For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a young wife against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be persons of his own household.
 

Any human being is on one side or the other, there is no on man’s land on this global field of battle!

 



Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 22 May 2008 at 8:44am
Originally posted by believer

Ephesians 6

2"Honor your father and mother"—which is the first commandment with a promise—
It is one of the commandments Shasta
 
I'm not sure of your point here?


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 5:36pm
You were quoting the Quran- Don't Muslims have the same basic commandments?
 
Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them.
Say: ‘If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your tribes, the property you have acquired, the merchandise you fear may not be sold, and the homes you love, are dearer to you than God, His apostle and the struggle for His cause, then wait until God shall fulfill His decree. God does not guide the evil-doers.’" S. 9:23-24


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 23 May 2008 at 6:33pm
believer,
yes, close but not exactly, only after you softern the tone by retranslating or explaining the words in the case of the Bible. Just compare the wording that is used to express the same thing if you insist. You do not see word "hate" or "bringing of a sword" used in the Quran toward non-believing family members unlike the Bible.
May be bad choice of words by whoever was putting those words together in case of the Bible.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Shasta'sAunt
Date Posted: 24 May 2008 at 3:00am
Originally posted by believer

You were quoting the Quran- Don't Muslims have the same basic commandments?
 
Believers, do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrongdoers are those that befriend them.
Say: ‘If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your tribes, the property you have acquired, the merchandise you fear may not be sold, and the homes you love, are dearer to you than God, His apostle and the struggle for His cause, then wait until God shall fulfill His decree. God does not guide the evil-doers.’" S. 9:23-24
 
Ron was stating that The Quran stating we should be kind to parents and then stating that we should not take them as protectors and friends if they are non-believers or liars and hypocrits is a contradiction.
 
I was merely pointing out that it was not a cobtradiction as we can still show them kindness, but not accept their religious beliefs or hypocrisy.
 
Yes, it is the same in Christianity. Honor them, but not to the point of choosing them over God.


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“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”
Eleanor Roosevelt


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 26 May 2008 at 11:09am
Thanks Shasta.
 
LOL!!  honeto- still don't understand that do you.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 27 May 2008 at 6:04pm
believer,
I agree and understand it as Shasta's Aunt does. But its not about understanding, its about the wording, "Hate your father and mother" as it clearly says, to me is a bad choice of words, its claimed to be coming out of a Holy book and not from a mystry novel.  Would God choose bad words or exaggerate his words while meaning less than that is strange in my opinion.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 28 May 2008 at 6:07am
Originally posted by honeto

believer,
I agree and understand it as Shasta's Aunt does. But its not about understanding, its about the wording, "Hate your father and mother" as it clearly says, to me is a bad choice of words, its claimed to be coming out of a Holy book and not from a mystry novel.  Would God choose bad words or exaggerate his words while meaning less than that is strange in my opinion.
Hasan
 

In the Scriptures the word "hate" has several shades of meaning.   It may denote intense hostility, sustained ill will often accompanied by malice.   Such hate may become a consuming emotion seeking to bring harm to its object.   "Hate" may also signify a strong dislike but without any intent to bring harm to the object, seeking instead to avoid it because of a feeling of loathing toward it.   The Bible also employs the word "hate" to mean loving to a lesser degree. (Gen 29:31, 33; Deut 21:15, 16)   For example, Jesus Christ said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple." (Lu 14:26)   Obviously Jesus did not mean that his followers were to feel hostility or loathing toward their families and toward themselves, as this would not be in agreement with the rest of the Scriptures.—Compare Mark 12:29-31; Eph 5:28, 29, 33.



Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 28 May 2008 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by honeto

believer,
I agree and understand it as Shasta's Aunt does. But its not about understanding, its about the wording, "Hate your father and mother" as it clearly says, to me is a bad choice of words, its claimed to be coming out of a Holy book and not from a mystry novel.  Would God choose bad words or exaggerate his words while meaning less than that is strange in my opinion.
Hasan
 

In the Scriptures the word "hate" has several shades of meaning.   It may denote intense hostility, sustained ill will often accompanied by malice.   Such hate may become a consuming emotion seeking to bring harm to its object.   "Hate" may also signify a strong dislike but without any intent to bring harm to the object, seeking instead to avoid it because of a feeling of loathing toward it.   The Bible also employs the word "hate" to mean loving to a lesser degree. (Gen 29:31, 33; Deut 21:15, 16)   For example, Jesus Christ said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple." (Lu 14:26)   Obviously Jesus did not mean that his followers were to feel hostility or loathing toward their families and toward themselves, as this would not be in agreement with the rest of the Scriptures.—Compare Mark 12:29-31; Eph 5:28, 29, 33.

 
 
Robin,
I understand that sometimes words can have different meanings, but I would think that a wise person is very careful with using words vs a un-wise person.
 
This quote is part of the same scripture too. Let us read:

Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 1:05am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by honeto

believer,
I agree and understand it as Shasta's Aunt does. But its not about understanding, its about the wording, "Hate your father and mother" as it clearly says, to me is a bad choice of words, its claimed to be coming out of a Holy book and not from a mystry novel.  Would God choose bad words or exaggerate his words while meaning less than that is strange in my opinion.
Hasan
 

In the Scriptures the word "hate" has several shades of meaning.   It may denote intense hostility, sustained ill will often accompanied by malice.   Such hate may become a consuming emotion seeking to bring harm to its object.   "Hate" may also signify a strong dislike but without any intent to bring harm to the object, seeking instead to avoid it because of a feeling of loathing toward it.   The Bible also employs the word "hate" to mean loving to a lesser degree. (Gen 29:31, 33; Deut 21:15, 16)   For example, Jesus Christ said: "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple." (Lu 14:26)   Obviously Jesus did not mean that his followers were to feel hostility or loathing toward their families and toward themselves, as this would not be in agreement with the rest of the Scriptures.—Compare Mark 12:29-31; Eph 5:28, 29, 33.

 
 
Robin,
I understand that sometimes words can have different meanings, but I would think that a wise person is very careful with using words vs a un-wise person.
 
This quote is part of the same scripture too. Let us read:

Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

Hasan
 
WHY Ex. 32:7?  
 
Because of the following:-
 
Exodus 32:3-6
And all the people began tearing off the gold earrings that were in their ears and bringing them to Aaron. 4 Then he took [the gold] from their hands, and he formed it with a graving tool and proceeded to make it into a molten statue of a calf. And they began to say: "This is your God, O Israel, who led you up out of the land of Egypt." 5 When Aaron got to see this, he went to building an altar before it. Finally Aaron called out and said: "There is a festival to Jehovah tomorrow." 6 So on the next day they were early in rising, and they began offering up burnt offerings and presenting communion sacrifices. After that the people sat down to eat and drink. Then they got up to have a good time.
 
 
They had become Devil Worshipers againts God's expressed Law through Moses which caried the death sentance:-
 
Deuteronomy 13:1-5
"In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, 2 and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,’ 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream, because Jehovah YOUR God is testing YOU to know whether YOU are loving Jehovah YOUR God with all YOUR heart and all YOUR soul. 4 After Jehovah YOUR God YOU should walk, and him YOU should fear, and his commandments YOU should keep, and to his voice YOU should listen, and him YOU should serve, and to him YOU should cling. 5 And that prophet or that dreamer of the dream should be put to death, because he has spoken of revolt against Jehovah YOUR God, who has brought YOU out of the land of Egypt and has redeemed you from the house of slaves, to turn you from the way in which Jehovah your God has commanded you to walk; and you must clear out what is evil from your midst.
 
Deuteronomy 6:14-15
YOU must not walk after other gods, any gods of the peoples who are all around YOU, 15 (for Jehovah your God in your midst is a God exacting exclusive devotion,) for fear the anger of Jehovah your God may blaze against you and he must annihilate you from off the surface of the ground.
 
Deuteronomy 7:4
For he will turn your son from following me, and they will certainly serve other gods; and Jehovah’s anger will indeed blaze against YOU, and he will certainly annihilate you in a hurry.
 
Deuteronomy 11:16-17
Watch out for yourselves for fear YOUR heart may be enticed, and YOU do turn aside and worship other gods and bow down to them, 17 and Jehovah’s anger does blaze against YOU, and he does shut up the heavens so that no rain will occur and the ground will not give its produce and YOU have to perish speedily from off the good land that Jehovah is giving YOU.
 
Thus is the God of Moses, He Will Not Tolarate the worship of Satanic & Demonic gods!
 

They were warned, they did not listion, and paid the price that God had said they would.   God proved his word to be true as a warning example that what the First Commandment say is NOT negotiable:-

 
Exodus 20:2-3
"I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 YOU MUST NOT have any other gods against my face.
 
if you do you die!
 
It is the same today, if humans do not worship Jehovah, the God of Moses and Jesus, that only leaves one other option, the Devil, so they will have to die, if they do not change, as he is their God!


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 7:02am
LOL!!  honeto- You are questiong Jesus' words and thus the WORD of GOD??
 
honeto-master editor?  too bad you don't look at the Quran in the same way.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 29 May 2008 at 2:26pm
[QUOTE=believer]LOL!!  honeto- You are questiong Jesus' words and thus the WORD of GOD??
 
believer,
upon my posting this quote from the Bible as a show of hate against brother, friend, and neighbor VS the teaching love:
Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."
 
this was your reponse to above quote.
 
"honeto-master editor?  too bad you don't look at the Quran in the same"  
 
can you state what you are addressing here??
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 01 June 2008 at 7:35am

You need to be as critical with the Quran as you are the Holy Bible.  The Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel.   You can't tell GOD what to write!! 

Muslims must study the whole Bible with the understanding that it is GOD's Word, truth - some of it history, some figurative speech, some law all leading up to the gift from GOD- salvation through Jesus.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 02 June 2008 at 2:01am
Originally posted by believer

LOL!!  honeto- You are questiong Jesus' words and thus the WORD of GOD??
 
honeto-master editor?  too bad you don't look at the Quran in the same way.
 
 Dear believer, we do not question the words of God and we do not wish that it should be corrupted. We also believe that the spoken word of Allah (Kalaam Allah) cannot be corrupted. But where is the real word of God. Do you believe that the words in the bible Nt are the words of God?
 
 I do not believe so. Every day people are adding and subtracting and editing and modifying the words of God. Can you not see that? Would it not amount to corruption. But it is not corruption. There is no real word of God in the bible NT. So people are able to play about with  it as they like.
 
 The problem was that the teachings of Jesus were only for the  Jews and for a limited time. That is why, God did not allow it to be preserved 100%. The teachings were not for all times and all people. There was new teaching coming after the teachings of Jesus for the whole mankind for all times. That teaching was to be preserved because there was not going to be any more teaching ( book) after that. That teaching is the new testament, latest testament called Quran. Please read Quran and give it some due importance. Thanks.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Nur_Ilahi
Date Posted: 02 June 2008 at 4:44am

Hi believer,

Muslims had studied the whole Bible, and found out that there are too many discrepancies, errors and contradictions which is not befitting for a holy scripture. Songs of Solomon for example - I found it very crude. Totally contradicts the Purity of God. God could not have written those words. Only lusty men could have done that.
 
As to the Taurah and the Injeel, the original copy cannot be found. Why is that so? Most probably, they mentioned the Gospels - The Good tidings of a coming Last Prophet Muhammad salallahualaihiwasalam.


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Ilahi Anta Maksudi, Wa Redhaka Mathlubi - Oh Allah, You are my destination, Your Pleasure is my Intention.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 02 June 2008 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by believer

You need to be as critical with the Quran as you are the Holy Bible.  The Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel.   You can't tell GOD what to write!! 

Muslims must study the whole Bible with the understanding that it is GOD's Word, truth - some of it history, some figurative speech, some law all leading up to the gift from GOD- salvation through Jesus.
 
believer,
I feel sorry that I have read the Bible. Really, because I had more respect for the book when I had not read it.
In my study, it cannot even support the three basic  points of its teachings without contradicting them:
1- Status of God
2- Status of Jesus
3- Salvation
Let me add another one:
4- consistancy (a sure Characteristic of a divine revelation)
Hasan
 
  


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 04 June 2008 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by believer

You need to be as critical with the Quran as you are the Holy Bible.  The Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel.   You can't tell GOD what to write!! 

Muslims must study the whole Bible with the understanding that it is GOD's Word, truth - some of it history, some figurative speech, some law all leading up to the gift from GOD- salvation through Jesus.
 
believer,
I feel sorry that I have read the Bible. Really, because I had more respect for the book when I had not read it.
In my study, it cannot even support the three basic  points of its teachings without contradicting them:
1- Status of God
2- Status of Jesus
3- Salvation
Let me add another one:
4- consistancy (a sure Characteristic of a divine revelation)
Hasan
 
  
 
On 1 & 2 What do ypu mean by "status"?
 
On 4 What sre you looking for?
 
 


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by honeto

[QUOTE=believer]

You need to be as critical with the Quran as you are the Holy Bible.  The Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel.   You can't tell GOD what to write!! 

Muslims must study the whole Bible with the understanding that it is GOD's Word, truth - some of it history, some figurative speech, some law all leading up to the gift from GOD- salvation through Jesus.
 
believer,
I feel sorry that I have read the Bible. Really, because I had more respect for the book when I had not read it.
In my study, it cannot even support the three basic  points of its teachings without contradicting them:
1- Status of God
2- Status of Jesus
3- Salvation
Let me add another one:
4- consistancy (a sure Characteristic of a divine revelation)
Hasan
 
  
 
Robin
by 1-Status of God, I mean who and what is God.
by-2 Status of Jesus, I mean who and what is Jesus.
by-3 Salvation, I mean how it is achieved. 
by-4 Consistancy, I mean no contradictions in its contents.
 
You have different believe on each one of these than 'believer'. But in general these points are presented and never proved without contradictions in their very source, the Bible unlike the Quran where all of these basic fundamantals of our belief are backed by its contents without any contradiction.
Hasan 
 
 


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: Mystical
Date Posted: 05 June 2008 at 11:57pm

Let me add my 2 cents worth in all this. There is a huge difference in Christians claiming the Bible as the Word of God and Muslims claiming the Quran as the God's Words. The Bible is not word for word dictated by God as Mohammad claimed for the Quran. You cannot read the Bible and take verses out of it without looking at the context it is written in. The Quran however is a collection of verses dictated word for word by God through Gabriel. If this is the case we as Christians must judge these verses according to our perception of a LOVING GOD. If these words do not compute with a loving God then we reject it and rightfully so in IMHO. god's words are timeless and should be valid for all people all times. for example if God say's polygamy is righteous than this is for all generations. However as a Christian I reject polygamy as discrimination against women therefore I reject this teaching as from God. In so doing I reject the Quran as from God.  

Christians do not however view the Bible as word for word dictated by God although we do believe it is the inerrant Word of God in that it was inspired by God and written by fallible men. Many different authors composed the Bible yet the MESSAGE of the Bible is consistent with a God who is Love and a God who wills to be loved in return. No where in the Bible does God say polygamy is from Him. People in the Bible may have practiced it but that doesnt mean God told them to "marry up to 4" if it pleases you.
 
One of the problems with the Quran is that the author assumed that Christians associate God with partners. The simple fact is Christians believe in ONE God. The author of the Quran believed Christians believed in 3 Gods and this is quite plainly untrue. Therefore the author could not have been God. That you do not understand of accept the Truine God does not make it untrue or imposible.
 
The above is only a few of many reasons why I reject the Quran as from God.
 
Peace
 
 
 
 


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 4:10am
 Mystical, you are entirely wrong. You know very well that king Soloman was a wise and pious person. Why did he have 300 wives? can you prove that the teachings of Torah are pointing to monogamy? If not then you are trying to be wiser than God, or you are trying to prove that Torah was a false book.
 
 You know very well that Jacob son of Issac had two wives (and two concubines). Was he an honest man of God or he was a scoundrel and disobedient to God? I am sure he was well guided by God and he did not do anything wrong. So we can easily conclude that you are wrong in your first step and the second harsh step:
 
 your  Ist step: That polygamy is wrong (you have been proved wrong).
 your second step: That because the Quran supports polygamy then Quran is also wrong.
 
 But when your first step is proved wrong and it is just your own idea, nothing more, then your other attack on the Quran is also false.
 
 Now I tell you (and all other friends) an interesting story about polygamy and its wonders. hazrat Sarah, the first wife of Hazrat Abraham was barren and could not bear any child. She became desperate and caring for her good husband, she offered a substitute (Hagar) to Abraham as a wife.
 
 Abraham slept with Hagar and she became pregnant. She gave birth to the first born of Abraham i.e. Ishmael. Then after more sacrifices by Abraham and Ishmael, God was pleased with Abraham and granted him another son (Issac) from Sarah.
 
 If there was no polygamy, there would not have been any Jew or christian today.
 
 Mystical, please do not blame Quran and and do not blame Islam if the same thing is found in older faiths. I believe that Joseph the carpentar (the father of Jesus ) had another wife too. Maryam was his second wife.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Saladin
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 6:30am
  No where in the Bible does God say polygamy is from Him. People in the Bible may have practiced it but that doesnt mean God told them to "marry up to 4" if it pleases you.
 
 That because, how many they wanted to marry wasnt restricted and the bible did nothing to stop it. What the bible didnt do, the quran did. Only the Quran put a restriction on the number of wives a man could take to 4 and only the Quran says marry one. And dont forget the time when the Quran first said this; it wasnt like raising the bar from 1 to 4, it was bringing it down from an infinity to 4. So it wasnt pleasant news for people then.
 
    
One of the problems with the Quran is that the author assumed that Christians associate God with partners. The simple fact is Christians believe in ONE God. The author of the Quran believed Christians believed in 3 Gods and this is quite plainly untrue. Therefore the author could not have been God. That you do not understand of accept the Truine God does not make it untrue or imposible.
 
 Father, Holy spirit, Jesus = OneGod
 
     1    +    1      +     1     =     1 ?
 
 That's why I believe that the Bible of  today is not God's word and that its author is not God.


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'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 06 June 2008 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by Mystical

Let me add my 2 cents worth in all this. There is a huge difference in Christians claiming the Bible as the Word of God and Muslims claiming the Quran as the God's Words. The Bible is not word for word dictated by God as Mohammad claimed for the Quran. You cannot read the Bible and take verses out of it without looking at the context it is written in. The Quran however is a collection of verses dictated word for word by God through Gabriel. If this is the case we as Christians must judge these verses according to our perception of a LOVING GOD. If these words do not compute with a loving God then we reject it and rightfully so in IMHO. god's words are timeless and should be valid for all people all times. for example if God say's polygamy is righteous than this is for all generations. However as a Christian I reject polygamy as discrimination against women therefore I reject this teaching as from God. In so doing I reject the Quran as from God.  

Christians do not however view the Bible as word for word dictated by God although we do believe it is the inerrant Word of God in that it was inspired by God and written by fallible men. Many different authors composed the Bible yet the MESSAGE of the Bible is consistent with a God who is Love and a God who wills to be loved in return. No where in the Bible does God say polygamy is from Him. People in the Bible may have practiced it but that doesnt mean God told them to "marry up to 4" if it pleases you.
 
One of the problems with the Quran is that the author assumed that Christians associate God with partners. The simple fact is Christians believe in ONE God. The author of the Quran believed Christians believed in 3 Gods and this is quite plainly untrue. Therefore the author could not have been God. That you do not understand of accept the Truine God does not make it untrue or imposible.
 
The above is only a few of many reasons why I reject the Quran as from God.
 
Peace
 
 
 
 
 
Mystical,
we have to be honest when comparing and saying what we say otherwise we will be bluffing not just to ourself but to others as well.
 
So you are admitting that the Bible is not the dictated word of God, thus its not God that is speaking to you rather someone else, another human. In truth I find it to be that way too, because many things don't cordinate rather contradict in it. That would not have been the case even if all of those who wrote it were inspired by the same (God) as you say, let alone the claim that it is the word of God.
 
You say: "If this is the case we as Christians must judge these verses according to our perception of a LOVING GOD." Let me say that the level of violance and indiscriminate killing and destruction of property and animals, portrayed in the Bible is not the qualities of a God who is not only Loving, but also is Just.
Take this quote for example: Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."
 
In Islam we believe in God, the One and Only. The God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed (pbut), who does not order indiscriminate killings but declares life as sacred which must be protected and only be taken through the way of justice as if someone kills a person, only that killer be punished for his crime, not the whole people or city be destroyed. Also, if you judge yourself with your own standard, you will fail because you say: "If these words do not compute with a loving God then we reject it " while the Bible speaks of hate beside love as claimed.
Read this as an example: Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.
 
As far as Christians worshipping One God, I believe that to be their true intention and that's what I believe prophet Jesus taught, but its not practiced as such except for a very small number of his followers.  Much like a Hindu who claims to believe in One God as their book preaches  but also believe in many incarnations of God and each incarnation is worshiped as god, Christians believe Jesus to be god incarnate and offer their worship to him. While in fact Jesus himself offered worship to someone, his Creator, God Almighty.
Worship, in Islam is reserved Only for One, your Creator, God Almighty and none else as taught by all of God's prophets who were sent to guide us into the right direction away from error.
Peace,
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 07 June 2008 at 10:03am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by robin

Originally posted by honeto

[QUOTE=believer]

You need to be as critical with the Quran as you are the Holy Bible.  The Quran confirms the Torah and Gospel.   You can't tell GOD what to write!! 

Muslims must study the whole Bible with the understanding that it is GOD's Word, truth - some of it history, some figurative speech, some law all leading up to the gift from GOD- salvation through Jesus.
 
believer,
I feel sorry that I have read the Bible. Really, because I had more respect for the book when I had not read it.
In my study, it cannot even support the three basic  points of its teachings without contradicting them:
1- Status of God
2- Status of Jesus
3- Salvation
Let me add another one:
4- consistancy (a sure Characteristic of a divine revelation)
Hasan
 
  
 
Robin
by 1-Status of God, I mean who and what is God.
by-2 Status of Jesus, I mean who and what is Jesus.
by-3 Salvation, I mean how it is achieved. 
by-4 Consistancy, I mean no contradictions in its contents.
 
You have different believe on each one of these than 'believer'. But in general these points are presented and never proved without contradictions in their very source, the Bible unlike the Quran where all of these basic fundamantals of our belief are backed by its contents without any contradiction.
Hasan 
 
 
OFFER 2 OR 3 EXAMPLES OF THE ABOVE?
 
 
 
1 Jehovah the ONE and only Almighty God:-
Psalm 83:18
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.
 
2
The agent through whom God deals with mankind:-
Acts 5:31
God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand,. . .
 
3
The antidote to the doings of the Devil and Adam who lead mankind away from God, whereas Jesus leads manking back to worship of the only true God (John 17:3):-
 
1 Corinthians 15:22
For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.
 
1 John 3:8
For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, namely, to break up the works of the Devil.
 
 
 
4
The Bible has no contridictions.
Most so-called contradictions are due to a lack of understsnding what the Holy Texts mean etc..


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 12 June 2008 at 8:40pm
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=57824&FID=10 - Saladin - GOD's intention are right there in the beginning
 
Genesis 2
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
 


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 16 June 2008 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by believer

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=57824&FID=10 - Saladin - GOD's intention are right there in the beginning
 
Genesis 2
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
 
 
Hey beleiver,
as I have shown you most Christians and Jews love these names, as they name their children after them: David, Abraham, Solomon etc. All lived and had more than one wife. And the second wife has rights according to the Bible, God has set besides other rules, rules for protecting the rights of the second wife.
 
Exodus 21:1 "These are the laws you are to set before them:...........

:10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.

So, here we have it folks.
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 6:40am
Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by believer

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=57824&FID=10 - Saladin - GOD's intention are right there in the beginning
 
Genesis 2
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
 
 
Hey beleiver,
as I have shown you most Christians and Jews love these names, as they name their children after them: David, Abraham, Solomon etc. All lived and had more than one wife. And the second wife has rights according to the Bible, God has set besides other rules, rules for protecting the rights of the second wife.
 
Exodus 21:1 "These are the laws you are to set before them:...........

:10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.

So, here we have it folks.
 
Hasan
 
Hasan that was under the Law of Moses, the prophet Jesus set matters right when he said:-
 
Matthew 19:4-6
In reply he said: "Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together let no man put apart."
 
For the followers of Jesus:-
 
Ephesians 5:31-33
"For this reason a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation. 33 Nevertheless, also, let each one of YOU individually so love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband.
 
1 Timothy 3:1-2
That statement is faithful. If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach
 
1 Timothy 3:12
Let ministerial servants be husbands of one wife, presiding in a fine manner over children and their own households.
 
Titus 1:5-6
make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders; 6 if there is any man free from accusation, a husband of one wife, . . .


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 10:14am
LOL!! honeto -  That doesn't say GOD condones it.  If you must sin then at least follow these guidlines!!

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 17 June 2008 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by believer

LOL!! honeto -  That doesn't say GOD condones it.  If you must sin then at least follow these guidlines!!
 
believer,
where does in those quotes say, that if you sin then you have to follow these guidelines??
And by putting a law to protect the rights of the first wife, it is clearly understood that this was indeed an approved pratice of those who God guided in the old times. And the proof is there in what's left of the old scripture. God's choosen prophets such as Abraham did it, David did it, Solomon did it, and so many other prophets did it according to your trusted source. Do you claim to know more than them? do you claim to be a better teacher and closer to God than them? Or do you think that they were less obedient and less cleaner than you?
 
Robin,
believer has claimed that polygamy was never approved by God since the begining.
And as far as yuor quotes, they talk about the union of marraige and importance of such union, not what we are talking here.
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:26pm
robin's quotes do have everything to do with the fact that GOD never condoned polygamy.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 12:49pm
beleiver,
are you trying to get away with that?  
You said that: "If you must sin then at least follow these guidlines!! "LOL
I am asking you to show me where do you get that, where in those vereses or around those verses, that I have quoted say that if you sin, then follow these rules about rights of the first wife??
 
If you forgot , here are those quotes that I have posted before that guide a person about the right of first wife, when/if he take another:
Exodus 21:1 "These are the laws you are to set before them:...........

:10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.

Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 19 June 2008 at 1:30pm
If you must sin by taking a second wife then at least do not deprive the first one.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 4:41pm
Originally posted by believer

If you must sin by taking a second wife then at least do not deprive the first one.
 
believer,
 
And where it says that if one takes the second wife it is a sin, but at least do not deprive the first one, as you claimed?
By the way my list of prophets, whos names Christians and Jews adore, marrying many wives in the Bible is growing.
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 6:25pm
LOL!!  honeto-
 
I gave you the verse in Genesis- God's intentions were for one man and one woman to be joined together as one.
 
honeto- I am beginning to wonder if you are serious.


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 6:26pm
Remember all prophets [except Jesus] are sinful man, just like you and me.

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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Posted By: BMZ
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by believer

Remember all prophets [except Jesus] are sinful man, just like you and me.
 
What sins did Noah and Lot commit? Could you please list their sins?
 
Who are people to judge the prophets and noble men of God?
 
Did Jesus declare any of the prophets sinners?
 
Did Jesus declare anywhere, "I am the only sinless man in this world."
If he did, then I would say he committed a gross sin. LOL
 
Cheers
BMZ


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Shasta's Aunt: "Well, there's the difference you see. The Bible was written by man about God, The Quran was revealed to man by God."


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 20 June 2008 at 10:22pm
I thought according to the Bible Noah slept with his daughters?


Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 27 June 2008 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by honeto

beleiver,
are you trying to get away with that?  
You said that: "If you must sin then at least follow these guidlines!! "LOL
I am asking you to show me where do you get that, where in those vereses or around those verses, that I have quoted say that if you sin, then follow these rules about rights of the first wife??
 
If you forgot , here are those quotes that I have posted before that guide a person about the right of first wife, when/if he take another:
Exodus 21:1 "These are the laws you are to set before them:...........

:10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.

Hasan
 
Humans are now living in the time of Jesus Christ NOT Moses!


Posted By: honeto
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 11:54am
Robin,
yes, until the last of the prophets, prophet Mohammed (pbuh) was went.
After which we are now and until 'the end' are under the law of the Quran, God's final testament, according to which we must live and will be Judged.
 
As of the 'Old' each one lived in the time of their perspective Prophet will be Judged according to the law given for that time!
 
Hasan


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39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"


Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 30 June 2008 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by believer

If you must sin by taking a second wife then at least do not deprive the first one.
 
 From where have you taken the above wise words. They are exactly as taught in Islam. Very good words. Is that your belief? So welcome to Islam.


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If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: believer
Date Posted: 05 July 2008 at 6:23am
So taking a second wife is a sin in Islam?  If you must sin by taking a second wife then at least do not deprive the first one.
 
honeto-IF/when- not you must!!


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John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



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