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Benazir Bhutto Assassinated

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Politics
Forum Name: Current Events
Forum Discription: Current Events
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11007
Printed Date: 26 October 2014 at 2:37am


Topic: Benazir Bhutto Assassinated
Posted By: Angela
Subject: Benazir Bhutto Assassinated
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:25am

RAWALPINDI, Pakistan (CNN) -- Pakistan's former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto was assassinated Thursday in the wake of a suicide bombing that killed at least 14 of her supporters, doctors, a spokesman for her party and other officials said.

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Bhutto suffered bullet wounds in the aftermath of the bomb attack, TV networks were reporting.

Police warned citizens to stay home as they expected rioting to break out in city streets as a shocked Pakistan absorbed the news of Bhutto's assassination.

Video of the scene just moments before the explosion showed Bhutto stepping into a heavily-guarded vehicle to leave the rally.

Bhutto was rushed to Rawalpindi General Hospital -- less than two miles from the bombing scene -- where doctors pronounced her dead. Video http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/pakistan.sharif/index.html#cnnSTCVideo" onclick="CNN_changeMosaicTab'cnnVideoCmpnt','videos.html',true,'/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/pakistan.sharif/index.html'; - Watch aftermath of the attack. »

Former Pakistan government spokesman Tariq Azim Khan said while it appeared Bhutto was shot, it was unclear if the bullet wounds to her head and neck were caused by a shooting or if it was shrapnel from the bomb. Video http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/pakistan.sharif/index.html#cnnSTCVideo" onclick="CNN_changeMosaicTab'cnnVideoCmpnt','videos.html',true,'/video/world/2007/12/27/rimington.bhutto.obit.cnn'; - Watch Benazir Bhutto obituary. »

The bomber detonated as he tried to enter the rally where thousands of people gathered to hear Bhutto speak, police said.

The number of wounded was not immediately known. However, video of the scene showed ambulances lined up to take many to hospitals.

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  • I-Report:  http://www.cnn.com/exchange/ireports/topics/forms/breaking.news.html - Send your tributes, videos, pictures
  • http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/bhutto.obit/index.html - Bhutto's turbulent history
  • http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/21/pakistan.blast/index.html - 'At least 50' dead in mosque bomb
  • http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/03/sharif.vote/index.html - Sharif's candidacy papers rejected

The attack came just hours after four supporters of Pakistan's former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif died when members of another political party opened fire on them at a rally near the Islamabad airport Thursday, Pakistan police said.

Several other members of Sharif's party were wounded, police said.

Bhutto, who led Paksitan from 1988 to 1990 and was the first female prime minister of any Islamic nation, was participating in the parliamentary election set for January 8, hoping for a third term. http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/bhutto.obit/index.html - Read about Bhutto's turbulent history.

A terror attack targeting her motorcade in Karachi killed 136 people on the day she returned to Pakistan after eight years of self-imposed exile. http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/27/pakistan.sharif/index.html#cnnSTCOther1" onclick="CNN_changeMosaicTab'otherTab1','other1.html',true; - View timeline. »

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CNN's Mohsin Naqvi, who was at the scene of both bombings, said Thursday's blast was not as powerful as that October attack.

Thursday's attacks come less than two weeks after Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf lifted an emergency declaration he said was necessary to secure his country from terrorists.



Replies:
Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:28am
May they burn in Hell!  Enough said.

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Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:31am
her dad broke the Pakistan while she robbed it.

you know whats the punishment for taking people's money in Pakistan?

Death.


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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:45am
You know what, bull.  She wasn't killed because of corruption.

Lets not pretend.  She was killed because she was a woman who dared to run for office in that part of the world in today's society.




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Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:50am
Originally posted by Angela

She was killed because she was a woman who dared to run for office in that part of the world in today's society.


yes a corrupt woman.

Also she was US right hand. Good thing we got rid of her.
She promised to give AQ Khan to US.

No wonder west is crying for her, they lost their agent.

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Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:54am
You don't kill corrupt politicians, you imprison them and throw their misdeeds out in court. 

She deserved a fair trial if she was guilty of any corruption. 

And AQ Khan is guilty of corruption too, why isn't he dead? 


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Posted By: abuzaid
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:57am

Originally posted by ak_m_f

No wonder west is crying for her, they lost their agent.

 



Posted By: imp87
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 7:04am

I don’t think she got killed because of corruption brother.

 

She seemed to have most of the support but regardless of that, was there any point in killing her and dragging Pakistan into chaos, not doing yourselves any favour either.

 



Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 7:13am
True imp87, if she was so corrupt and hated, why did she draw so many supporters inside Pakistan.

I could care less what my government wants.  I want to see real democracy and real law and justice.  Blowing people up isn't either, no matter what the target is.

I'm off to bed...


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Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 7:17am
Our people are uneducated masses easily manipulated by false promises.



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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 7:18am

It is not good news to hear about Benazir Bhutto. Pakistan already is in a critical situation. This will only enhance the difficulties. Whether we agree with her ideas does not give the right to assasinate her.

As she was apparently shot first by the man, why did he detonate a bomb to kill others, namely himself? He was probably too scared himself to survive the consequences. He will certainly not be welcomed to Heaven. So guess he will rot in hell. Rightly so.

Now we will see more innocent lives lost. Why dont assassins think before they act.(this is not a question thanks)



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: imp87
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 7:35am

ak_m_f

Our people are uneducated masses easily manipulated by false promises.

 

Same with every country brother, but why not show these people an alternative, some one who is not corrupt, which I doubt we can find. It’s like saying the system or the people are bad so lets get rid of it, but when it is gone we have nothing better or different to offer them.

 

Im in no way defending her, but I don’t think the people who carried out this event care much about Pakistans future or the peoples lives, no different from the powers behind the agents your talking about. Im sure this was there plan and now there rejoicing themselves.



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 8:22am

imp87 you said:

Same with every country brother

I disagree. I think there are countries in the Middle East where there are large portions of people who are more uneduated than people in other countries. If Religious studies are more dominant than obviously other subjects such as the sciences etc will lack, or will be grossly misinterpretated because of religious influence.

I woke up this morning to hear the news that this woman (Bhutto) was assassinated. Very sad. Brother AK is more knowledgable of this subject as I am so I will stop there as far as what I thibnk about this entire situation. From what I read from the L.A. times, this woman had some issues with PM Pervez Musharraff (I may have mispelled his name). I don't know if this woman was corrupt or not and it would be easy for me to make conclusions based on my heart, but that would be an unfair analysis of the situation. But what I will say is, is that its wrong to kill people for their beliefs and actions (if they do not physically harm you directly). But, politics is a deadly game sometimes.

Martha you said:

"He will certainly not be welcomed to Heaven. So guess he will rot in hell."

How do you know that? Many Muslim fanatics believe if you kill in the name of Allah in combat, this action alone makes you a martyr which is instant paradise.

 



Posted By: ak_m_f
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 8:35am
Go to charges of corruption section and read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto


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Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 8:52am

Israfil,

Show me that todays events were done for the sake of Islam then I will most definately retract my statement.

You said  ' But what I will say is, is that its wrong to kill people for their beliefs and actions (if they do not physically harm you directly'.

This is in agreement with my words. And many muslim fanatics do not understand Islam sufficiently enough to allow them the right to enter paradise. If they did understand  they would not act in this way. Just saying the words 'in the name of Allah' is not sufficient for them to gain entry to paradise.  

You have already said it was wrong. If it is wrong Islamically then this mans fate is sealed. What good reason was there on his part then?



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 9:39am
Martha I don't know the reason why the assassin decide to kill Bhutto. I'm speaking from what reearchers as well as reporters have indicated by fanatics within the Muslim ranks. There so many variables to consider why an individual decides to kill him/herself and another individual. In addition, a lot of Muslim fanatics in our contemporary world believe if the intent is met with action for the sake of Allah they (those who indoctrine the ignorant into killing themselves) believe that this action will admit someone in paradise.


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 9:47am
Angela, Bhutto was not, contrary to your thinking, killed because she was
a woman trying to take a stand. That is a ridicuous thing to say and
shows you are reading events from your narrow Western prism i.e women
in Islam are repressed etc.

The news makes me very sad, as Martha pointed out, there was no need
to massacre so many people if the target was simply a political leader. By
murdering so many bystanders the act ensures reprisals and vengeance
from many different quarters. Bhutto knew she faced assassination
attempts, we could all see this coming, it was just a matter of time, and
this is what makes me sad: what a waste, what an idiotic way to go! As a
woman and a mother I can not understand the ego driving her to believe
herself so important for a country, that she has now been killed by her
own country.

But the title of a movie comes to mind: Death Becomes Her.

Although I am very saddened by her death, I held her in low esteem.
Washington's sponsorship of her was a death sentence, although she
must have believed their reassurances and perhaps promise of protection.
It was pretty clear where America's priorities lay when they cleared the
way for her and utterly ignored the plight of the previously legitimately
elected head of state who languished in exile: Nawaz Sharif. Look who
brought him home: King Saud. Revealing, eh? The genuine deposed
leader is left to figure out what to do, while the genuinely corrupt, exiled-
in-fear-of-jail, ex-leader is chaperoned with the West's blessings.



Posted By: imp87
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 9:53am

israfil:

I disagree. I think there are countries in the Middle East where there are large portions of people who are more uneduated than people in other countries. If Religious studies are more dominant than obviously other subjects such as the sciences etc will lack, or will be grossly misinterpretated because of religious influence.

 

I was trying to generalize brother

 

Of course we are behind in a lot of areas. Unfortunately education is one of them.

 

Like I said I am not supporting her at all, if she died from heart disease I wouldn’t care, but my point is, was this necessary. I know revolutions, change, democracy or whatever you want to call these situations are not always brought or done peacefully, actually never. But if something is done wrong when bringing that change then we have no right to make excuses or try to justify it, how can this have anything to do with Islam.

 

Put Bhutto aside for a second, don’t these so called “fighters”, know they are killing Muslims, is suicide allowed, don’t they know killing Bhutto will lead to more deaths and chaos, are we allowed to cause more deaths and chaos.

 

Im sure and hope every ones answer is the same as mine.

 

Them murderers are responsible for the lifes they killed, how many of these people had children to feed, how do they know these people didn’t pray five times a day, so I to hope they rot in hell, but that’s Allahs decision not mine.……

 

Insallah I didn’t say anything Islamically wrong there.

  

 

ak_m_f:

Go to charges of corruption section and read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto

 

Brother she was corrupt or not, maybe she was and a lot of people agree with that by the looks of it. But who do you purpose to lead then?

 

If we start doing this to everyone that is corrupt then sure thing a lot of heads would be flying off. If we could put them to trail, then do what ever you want to them, but not in this manner.

 

And no offence to anyone, if for some reason we are having corrupt individuals to lead us, then we are to some extend corrupt and responsible for that, are we not....

 

 



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 10:14am

Well, Sharif has now decided to boycott the January general election. So what choices face the Pakistani people now?

Pakistan will remain one of the most dangerous places on earth. That is terribly sad.

I dont know about the rest of you, but I'm expecting more attrocities there. I'm sure  there is no denying that the CHristians will again be questioning the Islamic religion and how do we tell them that ours is a peaceful religion. Todays actions just adds more flames to the fire.



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Aminah07
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 2:15pm

ASA,

does anyone know how old her 3 children were? I hope they will be allowed to grieve without being bombarded by the media etc.



Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 2:50pm
Duende:
What a great & incisive Libran script on a complex situation where most are beating about the bush!
Your analysis is on the money absolutely.

IMHO she was one of the most conniving but foolish woman of our time. Then it was in her stars being a Gemini to be double faced and a classically greedy hypocrite.
Then she ignored the lessons of history of the subcontinent being a student of politics at her own peril!
She was supposed to remember the fate of Indra Gandhi. Indra ordered the destruction of Golden Temple but proved to a bonehead when she kept her Sikh security guards and met her end at their hands.
She goes on make public pronouncement for what she will do Usama and Mullah Omar when she will come in power and go around town without same security as of her sponsor Mush.
After Karachi blast she should have known better that her days were numbered unless she were kept  in the MRAP(mine resistant ambush protected now envisioned for Iraq cuz humvees are no good against IEDs)
The people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!
She forgot that there is 50 million bounty on Usama his 2IC & mullah but nobody has come forward to collect that in six years!
Just compare that with Saddam who wanted to be the modern Nebuchadnezzar and he lost his way!
And she was foolish enough to throw down the gauntlet.

There is war for the freedom of heartland of Islam that is occupied by the crusaders in disguise. She threw caution to the wind being a Shiit that she had a limited wiggle room in her rants in this war. She was towing the western line to such level of intensity that I haven't seen ever before.
The proof being the financial markets in the west took a nose dive and all the news channels had nothing but her coverage that what an important chessman on the board she was!

Duende: you mentioned King Saud-- the western  stooge, he lobbed the hot potato( Sharif) out cuz of media explosion. Whatever respect of that corrupt kingdom among the illiterate Paki masses was starting to go down fast ( I lost count of the number of editorials and columns in Pakistan press written against Saudis for their nefarious role in this game).
And Mush had let this fox(BB) in on US behest to guard the hen house that further exposed the saudis to end their kidnapping.

BTW it is the same spot where the first Prime Minister of  Pakiland Liaqat Ali was shot, now that is mind boggling!

So far going to hell or paradise it is all subject to  the intentions; we may easily analyze her agenda and the attacker's agenda it really doesn't matter! He was a nobody where she was some body!
In the killer game of political chess I would say a queen getting knocked over by a pawn 

Other possible scenarios a hit ordered by her  opponents who tried to kill her on her return from exile in Karachi i.e., MQM killers or Mush's political own political party etc. These political parties stood to loose most while her being around!
Remember she did ask for a thorough investigation but Mush's government practically didn't do much!




 


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Azaleah
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 7:59pm
Please dont prejudge her. Only Allah knows what each and
everyone of us do in our lifetime. She may appear a bad person
to one and a good person to others. Her family are in grief right
now, lets respect their feelings as anyone of us here wants to be
respected too.


She is dead now and no one can do anything anymore. Lets pray
that may Allah forgive all her sins and keep her soul. Thats the
least that we can do to our sister in Islam.

INNA LILLAHI WA INNA ILAYHI RAJIUN!


No one is perfect and on the Day of Judgment, we will all be judged according to our deeds...


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Leah


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 8:08pm
You make very good points Azaleah.  I don't think it is our job to judge her.  Only Allah knows what was in her heart.


Posted By: mariyah
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 9:19pm
Asalaamu alaikum, this was in an email about this subject from Masnet.org. I agree with sister Azaleah: this is for informational purposes. I did not know the lady and am not her judge.

NNA LILLAHI WA INNA ILAYHI RAJIUN!

For those of us who claim al-Islam as our way of life, and call ourselves Muslim, murder is unlawful, and an abomination in the eyes of our Creator.
By Ibrahim Abdil-Mu'id Ramey
MAS Freedom Civil and Human Rights Director

 

WASHINGTON, D.C. (MASNET) Dec. 27, 2007 - I am struggling to find words to express my grief and outrage after hearing the news of the murder of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto earlier today in Pakistan.
Regardless of one's political sentiments, or support for any of the factions struggling for political supremacy in that nation, the killing of Mrs. Bhutto is a tragic blow to democratic rule in Pakistan.
And, make no mistake about it, while the identities of the culprits are not known at this time, one thing is a virtual certainty: they are Muslims.
Sadly, the phenomenon of Muslims killing other Muslims is not shocking news for a world drenched in sensational, mass violence; and the people of Pakistan are certainly no strangers to political intrigue or fratricide. But with Pakistan - the world's second most populous majority-Muslim nation - at the crossroads of political change, and with the promise of that change being electoral, and nonviolent - the consequences of this killing are both profound and immense.
Benazir Bhutto, to be sure, had both staunch supporters and vehement enemies, among them being Muslims who categorically rejected the idea of a woman possibly, once again, becoming the leader of their nation.
There were also numerous Pakistanis, of all ideological persuasions, who viewed Bhutto's previous terms of leadership with deep disfavor.
But the idea of political assassination as a legitimate expression of dissent is un- categorically haram.
For those of us who claim al-Islam as our way of life and call ourselves Muslim, murder is unlawful, and an abomination in the eyes of our Creator.
Now is not the time to deconstruct and interrogate the legacy of Benazir Bhutto's past terms as a Prime Minister of Pakistan. Nor should we speculate on who is responsible for her murder, or for the deaths of scores of her supporters in the suicide bombing and shooting that claimed her life.
We must recognize that the violent authoritarian and repressive government of Pakistan has created a climate of hostility and hatred that made the murder of Mrs. Bhutto not only likely, but perhaps inevitable.
The unconditional U.S. political support for the Musharraf dictatorship, coupled with massive American economic and military support, added fuel to the fire of extremism that ultimately claimed her life.
And now, as we offer our condolences to the family of Benazir Bhutto and the people of Pakistan, we must pray for an end to the cancer of violence that has affected our Ummah, as we diligently work for the restoration of peace and democratic values that are vital to our collective survival.
 






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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 10:57pm
We must recognize that the violent authoritarian and repressive government of Pakistan has created a climate of hostility and hatred that made the murder of Mrs. Bhutto not only likely, but perhaps inevitable.
Touche

The unconditional U.S. political support for the Musharraf dictatorship, coupled with massive American economic and military support, added fuel to the fire of extremism that ultimately claimed her life.
Touche


And now, as we offer our condolences to the family of Benazir Bhutto and the people of Pakistan, we must pray for an end to the cancer of violence that has affected our Ummah, as we diligently work for the restoration of peace and democratic values that are vital to our collective survival.
Ameen!
cuál será, sea
What  ever happened to the accountability?
What do you say about her approval of RED MOSQUE massacre by the Pakistani army killers not too far from the site of her assassination!
Where hundreds of young Muslimahs Quranic scholars were torched to death. Some were blown to bits with high powered army machine guns and  helicopters hovering over the oldest Islamabad mosque blasting phosphorus all on live TV. Later on  body parts like fingers of girls were found dumped along with trash on garbage heap by the poor bereaving parents!
Where were condolences for those parents of children who were killed mercilessly for no reason but they saw the cancer in the heart of Islamic Republic of Pakistan's capital.And they paid the ultimate price with their lives cuz they wanted law and order, the world just let it be and went on its merry ways!
The lost parents appealed to the Supreme Court of Pakistan for justice and the bench was fired by the dictator for listening to the complaint of the dead children.
God's judgment on that country is over due!
The corruption and filth in that place is so out of control under the current setup that any thing goes!  



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 4:47am

Sign*Reader

Your comments,     The corruption and filth in that place is so out of control under the current setup that any thing goes! 

How true these words Something tells me that conditions will deteriorate further. And no doubt the worlds political leaders will add to the continuing suffering of the innocent people of Pakistan.



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Walid
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 4:56am

She said she will fight and remove Islamist by all cost and someone somewhere  (presumed Islamist or Musharraf who knows) responded to her challenge by taking her out. If you vow to kill people, then expect to be challenged and removed by all means. That is brutal reality in Pakistan or shall I say world politics.

After all, she said she will die for democracy. Now she died for it as many political leaders and media empire are telling us. So let she see whether in Quran there is reward for people who dies for democracy principle.

 

 

Walid



Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 7:34am

Originally posted by ak_m_f

Originally posted by Angela

She was killed because she was a woman who dared to run for office in that part of the world in today's society.


yes a corrupt woman.

Also she was US right hand. Good thing we got rid of her.
She promised to give AQ Khan to US.

No wonder west is crying for her, they lost their agent.

 

 Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : You beat me up black and blue just for HIJAB
Is it ALLAH'S pious punishment or your polluting AHJAB
If i am immodest let then ALLAH punish me
For this unsightly barriers and open revealing beauty
Why are you punishing me will you share my personal hell
Why do you break my vocal box to repair my wind pipe yell

from SWEETSWORDS 86 [ Comparative Religion ]



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awal


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 7:43am
Originally posted by poga

Originally posted by ak_m_f

Originally posted by Angela

She was killed because she was a woman who dared to run for office in that part of the world in today's society.

Achcha, OK thankyou for the info, that she was killed since she was a woman ---

Can u please let me know , why her father was killed?



yes a corrupt woman.

Also she was US right hand. Good thing we got rid of her.
She promised to give AQ Khan to US.

No wonder west is crying for her, they lost their agent.

 

 Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : You beat me up black and blue just for HIJAB
Is it ALLAH'S pious punishment or your polluting AHJAB
If i am immodest let then ALLAH punish me
For this unsightly barriers and open revealing beauty
Why are you punishing me will you share my personal hell
Why do you break my vocal box to repair my wind pipe yell

from SWEETSWORDS 86 [ Comparative Religion ]

Allah swt, shall deal with her accounts be it  Hijab, {Allah knows the Best}

On what basis did you conclude that this was reason. Pls let us know. None of the media, even doubt this fact of hers



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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 8:22am
U.S. Brokered Bhutto's Return to Pakistan
White House Would Back Her as Prime Minister While Musharraf Held Presidency

By Robin Wright and Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, December 28, 2007; A01

For Benazir Bhutto, the decision to return to http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/pakistan.html?nav=el" target=" - Pakistan was sealed during a telephone call from Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice just a week before Bhutto flew home in October. The call culminated more than a year of secret diplomacy -- and came only when it became clear that the heir to Pakistan's most powerful political dynasty was the only one who could bail out Washington's key ally in the battle against terrorism.

It was a stunning turnaround for Bhutto, a former prime minister who was forced from power in 1996 amid corruption charges. She was suddenly visiting with top State Department officials, dining with U.N. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad and conferring with members of the National Security Council. As President Pervez Musharraf's political future began to unravel this year, Bhutto became the only politician who might help keep him in power.

"The U.S. came to understand that Bhutto was not a threat to stability, but was instead the only possible way that we could guarantee stability and keep the presidency of Musharraf intact," said Mark Siegel, who lobbied for Bhutto in Washington and witnessed much of the behind-the-scenes diplomacy.

But the diplomacy that ended abruptly with Bhutto's assassination yesterday was always an enormous gamble, according to current and former U.S. policymakers, intelligence officials and outside analysts. By entering into the legendary "Great Game" of South Asia, the United States also made its goals and allies more vulnerable -- in a country in which more than 70 percent of the population already looked unfavorably upon Washington.

Bhutto's assassination leaves Pakistan's future -- and Musharraf's -- in doubt, some experts said. "U.S. policy is in tatters. The administration was relying on Benazir Bhutto's participation in elections to legitimate Musharraf's continued power as president," said Barnett R. Rubin of New York University. "Now Musharraf is finished."

Bhutto's assassination also demonstrates the growing power and reach of militant anti-government forces in Pakistan, which pose an existential threat to the country, said J. Alexander Thier, a former U.N. official now at the U.S. Institute for Peace. "The dangerous cocktail of forces of instability exist in Pakistan -- Talibanism, sectarianism, ethnic nationalism -- could react in dangerous and unexpected ways if things unravel further," he said.

But others insist the U.S.-orchestrated deal fundamentally altered Pakistani politics in ways that will be difficult to undo, even though Bhutto is gone. "Her return has helped crack open this political situation. It's now very fluid, which makes it uncomfortable and dangerous," said Isobel Coleman of the Council on Foreign Relations. "But the status quo before she returned was also dangerous from a U.S. perspective. Forcing some movement in the long run was in the U.S. interests."

Bhutto's assassination during a campaign stop in Rawalpindi might even work in favor of her Pakistan People's Party, with parliamentary elections due in less than two weeks, Coleman said. "From the U.S. perspective, the PPP is the best ally the U.S. has in terms of an institution in Pakistan."

Bhutto's political comeback was a long time in the works -- and uncertain for much of the past 18 months. In mid-2006, Bhutto and Musharraf started communicating through intermediaries about how they might cooperate. Assistant Secretary of State Richard A. Boucher was often an intermediary, traveling to Islamabad to speak with Musharraf and to Bhutto's homes in London and Dubai to meet with her.

Under U.S. urging, Bhutto and Musharraf met face to face in January and July in Dubai, according to U.S. officials. It was not a warm exchange, with Musharraf resisting a deal to drop corruption charges so she could return to Pakistan. He made no secret of his feelings.

In his 2006 autobiography "In the Line of Fire," Musharraf wrote that Bhutto had "twice been tried, been tested and failed, [and] had to be denied a third chance." She had not allowed her own party to become democratic, he alleged. "Benazir became her party's 'chairperson for life,' in the tradition of the old African dictators!"

A turning point was Bhutto's three-week U.S. visit in August, when she talked again to Boucher and to Khalilzad, an old friend. A former U.S. ambassador in neighboring http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/afghanistan.html?nav=el" target=" - Afghanistan , Khalilzad had long been skeptical about Musharraf, and while in Kabul he had disagreed with then-Secretary of State Colin L. Powell over whether the Pakistani leader was being helpful in the fight against the Taliban. He also warned that Pakistani intelligence was allowing the Taliban to regroup in the border areas, U.S. officials said.

When Bhutto returned to the United States in September, Khalilzad asked for a lift on her plane from New York to Aspen, Colo., where both were giving speeches. They spent much of the five-hour plane ride strategizing, said sources familiar with the diplomacy.

Friends say Bhutto asked for U.S. help. "She pitched the idea to the Bush administration," said Peter W. Galbraith, a former U.S. ambassador and friend of Bhutto from their days at Harvard. "She had been prime minister twice, and had not been able to accomplish very much because she did not have power over the most important institutions in Pakistan -- the ISI [intelligence agency], the military and the nuclear establishment," he said.

"Without controlling those, she couldn't pursue peace with http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/countries/india.html?nav=el" target=" - India , go after extremists or transfer funds from the military to social programs," Galbraith said. "Cohabitation with Musharraf made sense because he had control over the three institutions that she never did. This was the one way to accomplish something and create a moderate center."

The turning point to get Musharraf on board was a September trip by Deputy Secretary of State John D. Negroponte to Islamabad. "He basically delivered a message to Musharraf that we would stand by him, but he needed a democratic facade on the government, and we thought Benazir was the right choice for that face," said Bruce Riedel, a former CIA officer and National Security Council staff member now at the Brookings Institution's Saban Center for Middle East Policy.

"Musharraf still detested her, and he came around reluctantly as he began to recognize this fall that his position was untenable," Riedel said. The Pakistani leader had two choices: Bhutto or former prime minister Nawaz Sharif, whom Musharraf had overthrown in a 1999 military coup. "Musharraf took what he thought was the lesser of two evils," Riedel said.

Many career foreign policy officials were skeptical of the U.S. plan. "There were many inside the administration, at the State and Defense Departments and in intelligence, who thought this was a bad idea from the beginning because the prospects that the two could work together to run the country effectively were nil," said Riedel.

As part of the deal, Bhutto's party agreed not to protest against Musharraf's reelection in September to his third term. In return, Musharraf agreed to lift the corruption charges against Bhutto. But Bhutto sought one particular guarantee -- that Washington would ensure Musharraf followed through on free and fair elections producing a civilian government.

Rice, who became engaged in the final stages of brokering a deal, called Bhutto in Dubai and pledged that Washington would see the process through, according to Siegel. A week later, on Oct. 18, Bhutto returned.

Ten weeks later, she was dead.

Xenia Dormandy, former National Security Council expert on South Asia now at Harvard University's Belfer Center, said U.S. meddling is not to blame for Bhutto's death. "It is very clear the United States encouraged" an agreement, she said, "but U.S. policy is in no way responsible for what happened. I don't think we could have played it differently."

U.S. policy -- and the commitment to Musharraf -- remains unchanged. In a statement yesterday, Rice appealed to Pakistanis to remain calm and to continue seeking to build a "moderate" democracy.

"I don't think it would do any justice to her memory to have an election postponed or canceled simply as a result of this tragic incident," State Department spokesman Tom Casey told reporters. "The only people that win through such a course of action are the people who perpetrated this attack."

Staff writer Thomas E. Ricks and staff researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 10:39am

Lets not pretend.  She was killed because she was a woman who dared to run for office in that part of the world in today's society.


Angela, we need to examine a whole range of suspects before gliding in to that great western favourite of victim womens' abyss. BB had been a Prime Minister twice and in between when she wasn’t in office, she used to happily roam about at her favourite Karachi and Lahore spots.

 

No body ever thought of harming her.

 

But then that was all before 1999.

Long before the Bush n Mush gang took over that otherwise quite peaceful fun country.

 

I have spent almost the whole of this year travelling in Pakistan. Today, even our good old US returned Pakistani friends (all the Gymkhana plus crowd) have had, as the English expression goes, upto here with this War on Terror circus. I won’t even attempt to disclose the man in the street’s response just out of sheer simple decency.

 

US obsession with their darling anti-terror Talisman has become an irritant (I know, I am understating the situation out there) for men of every class there.

 

The General needed a clear hand for extension of his rule.

Things had turned very bad for the poor general and he needed a clear path fro enhancing his rule, towards the end of his term. He needed a home made sort of a Supreme Court.

 

He summoned the Chief Justice of Pakistan to the Army House (the Chief of army staff's official residence) and had him bullied by his intelligence (or, the Lack of Intelligence) chiefs. I was in Lahore on that fabled 9th March. I won't waste your time in describing how the folks, specially the professional and the educated classes, reacted to it.

 

And, by the Ides of March the pot was on the full boil.

 

Let's sail past the Lal Masjid drama and all other events of the lost summer.

 

On 3rd November, emergency was declared.

This was green lighted by the Islamabad US embassy. It makes simple straightforward sense. The US had been more than just desperate to keep Mush in his chair than possibly even poor Mush himself. Both, Mush and Bush, knew by midday of the 2nd November that the Supreme Court was going to rule Mush's dodgy election, by a defunct Assembly, illegal.

 

(If I, with my meagre resources, knew by 13:24 UK time, I bet the States and their idiot definitely knew it by then!

 

Why were they going to rule that?

Plain and simple. The Constitution of Pakistan requires that any government servant is barred from contesting for ANY public office, for a clear period of 24 calendar months, after leaving office.

 

Our favourite man in Eyezlambabad was still in government service.

I swear upon my scout's honour that a Chief of the Army Staff is a government servant.

 

He arrested all the Judges of the Higher courts, at gun point and handed them an oath of personalised loyalty. And, he put all those who didn’t take his oath, in sub-jails surrounded by barbed wire.

 

He trashed the Constitution and put together a court of his own choice and got them to rubberstamp his election.

 

Let’s say that he has put all the lawyers, civic leaders, human rights activists and any and every known professional decent Pakistani in mini concentration camps. Complete with brutish armed guards and torture techniques just this side of water boarding and other few US favourites.

 

The US had hatched a plan to arrange a marriage of convenience between their bad boy and our bad daughter. All her court cases went missing almost like those CIA water boarding tapes!

 

People of Pakistan had been feeling under army occupation for a good long time. Other dictators had been very bad, but the army had never been used for exterminating own people.

 

And, in all this fiasco of these past few weeks, the US has been caught playing a game with the people of Pakistan. The State Department has been just spinning the great doffing of the uniform as if he had given up some inheritance he had had from his maternal grandfather (nana in Urdu, his mother tongue, not mine)!

 

Every soldier retires and has to learn to live in his civvies one day.

 

I am sad, but I am not surprised that BB has been shot dead.

Today, the situation in Pakistan is that if you want anyone dead, just label the person as a US ally. She had been viewed as an extension of the US interference in the country’s affairs.

 

Let’s move to other possible suspects:

1.                   Good old Altaf Bhai. MQM had taken advantage of her absence from the political arena and carved part of her vote bank and taken Sind. She had started to reclaim her vote bank since her return. MQM are also in the suspect list for the October attack on her life.

2.                   Pervez Ellahi group; Pervez’s uncle, Chaudhary Zahoor Ellahi, one of the finest men I have known in my wandering years, was eliminated by Al-Zulfikar, and organisation run by BB’s brother to avenge his father’s death

3.                   PP Stray Elements; A fairly large part of her PPP had felt betrayed by her deal with a dictator.

4.                   General Public Strays: We know what the Amrekanos think of Dr Qadeer Khan and, today, since the US bickering and badmouthing of the Iranian Nuclear Energy programme, Pakistanis have come to know why the Americans are after Dr Qadeer.

 

Now, the problem is that an average Paki holds Qadeer Khan in greater esteem than even the Founder of the nation. BB had promised the US to bag and deliver them Dr Qadeer Khan. This has been taken as her primary sin by every single shade of opinion I have met in these past few weeks. It’s possible that some stray young man had taken it upon himself to put an end to someone he viewed as a traitor.

5.                   The Agencies: BB and her family did not have a comfortable relationship with the agencies and to a degree also with the army officers’ corps. The agencies had for long considered the Bhutto family as some kind of bad eggs. There is a huge explanation, but we better sail past it for now.

6.                   Her own Family: Her brother’s widow and a good part of the more influential Bhutto clan (ZAB or even his father, (Sir) Shahnawaz were, in fact, a bit of nominal Bhuttos.

 

When ZAB took over, in 1972, from General Yahya Khan, he had to delay his television address to the nation for a few hours, for striking a deal with cousin (Mumtaz Bhutto) who had a succession case going in the High Court for years to get ZAB struck off the Bhutto inheritance!

 

ZAB was not born as Zulfikar Ali.

He was given birth, as Ghansi Ram, by a very attractive young Bombay socialite who was kept by Pandit jee (Jawahar Lal Nehru)

She was four months on her way when Shahnawaz took her over. Sir Shahnawaz adopted when ZAB was born – according to the British Indian law, the natural father of the child had to consent the adoption. ZAB’s adoption certificate was signed by Nehru.

It’s along story, let’s not touch it right now, but the long and the short of it is that Shanawaz’s father never allowed him to bring her and the child home. He and his mother stayed in a house just a few miles outside the ancestral home, for a full nine years and as Ghansi Ram! Bhutto clan rivalry is quite a venomous factor.

7.                   The CIA: Now, I haven’t had time to weigh this possibility up for shortage of time, but I accidentally happened to be in a discussion soon after BB and Nawaz had both returned to Pakistan. Can it be possible that the Americans are keen to create a situation in Pakistan that would justify PLACING NATO TROOPS there

– under the pretext of Safeguarding zat coontree’s Nuke assets!! And also encircle IRAN?

 

My friend, think with an open mind.

It’s a political assassination with plenty of possibilities.

-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 10:56am
Those are very interesting points Whisper.  It leaves a lot for one to think about.


Posted By: Natella
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 11:49am

Though I expected her death (was almost sure of it),  I see that things are going to get even more horrific in the world. But it is said that things get better only after they reach their worst.

La ilaaha illa Allah.

Pray for the people of the world, we're going to need it.

Salaam to all.



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You only live once - but if you work it right, once is enough.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 12:24pm

Those are very interesting points Whisper.  It leaves a lot for one to think about.

When a crime takes place, it's our duty to examine all its angles, not just the one that happens to be our favourite. No?



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 8:06pm
The news here in the US is spinning this event to suit its needs as usual.  They are going to the usual fallback of saying Al-Qaeda did it.  They swear they have proof.  I think you only need a cousin's wife's brother in law's neighbor who has a loose relation in order for it to be an act from Al-Qaeda.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 8:44pm

A tragedy born of military despotism and anarchy



The assassination of Benazir Bhutto heaps despair upon Pakistan. Now her party must be democratically rebuilt

Tariq Ali
Friday December 28, 2007
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ - The Guardian

Even those of us sharply critical of Benazir Bhutto's behaviour and policies - both while she was in office and more recently - are stunned and angered by her death. Indignation and fear stalk the country once again.

An odd coexistence of military despotism and anarchy created the conditions leading to her assassination in Rawalpindi yesterday. In the past, military rule was designed to preserve order - and did so for a few years. No longer. Today it creates disorder and promotes lawlessness. How else can one explain the sacking of the chief justice and eight other judges of the country's supreme court for attempting to hold the government's intelligence agencies and the police accountable to courts of law? Their replacements lack the backbone to do anything, let alone conduct a proper inquest into the misdeeds of the agencies to uncover the truth behind the carefully organised killing of a major political leader.

How can Pakistan today be anything but a conflagration of despair? It is assumed that the killers were jihadi fanatics. This may well be true, but were they acting on their own?

Benazir, according to those close to her, had been tempted to boycott the fake elections, but she lacked the political courage to defy Washington. She had plenty of physical courage, and refused to be cowed by threats from local opponents. She had been addressing an election rally in Liaquat Bagh. This is a popular space named after the country's first prime minister, Liaquat Ali Khan, who was killed by an assassin in 1953. The killer, Said Akbar, was immediately shot dead on the orders of a police officer involved in the plot. Not far from here, there once stood a colonial structure where nationalists were imprisoned. This was Rawalpindi jail. It was here that Benazir's father, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, was hanged in April 1979. The military tyrant responsible for his judicial murder made sure the site of the tragedy was destroyed as well.

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's death poisoned relations between his Pakistan People's party and the army. Party activists, particularly in the province of Sind, were brutally tortured, humiliated and, sometimes, disappeared or killed.

Pakistan's turbulent history, a result of continuous military rule and unpopular global alliances, confronts the ruling elite now with serious choices. They appear to have no positive aims. The overwhelming majority of the country disapproves of the government's foreign policy. They are angered by its lack of a serious domestic policy except for further enriching a callous and greedy elite that includes a swollen, parasitic military. Now they watch helplessly as politicians are shot dead in front of them.

Benazir had survived the bomb blast yesterday but was felled by bullets fired at her car. The assassins, mindful of their failure in Karachi a month ago, had taken out a double insurance this time. They wanted her dead. It is impossible for even a rigged election to take place now. It will have to be postponed, and the military high command is no doubt contemplating another dose of army rule if the situation gets worse, which could easily happen.

What has happened is a multilayered tragedy. It's a tragedy for a country on a road to more disasters. Torrents and foaming cataracts lie ahead. And it is a personal tragedy. The house of Bhutto has lost another member. Father, two sons and now a daughter have all died unnatural deaths.

I first met Benazir at her father's house in Karachi when she was a fun-loving teenager, and later at Oxford. She was not a natural politician and had always wanted to be a diplomat, but history and personal tragedy pushed in the other direction. Her father's death transformed her. She had become a new person, determined to take on the military dictator of that time. She had moved to a tiny flat in London, where we would endlessly discuss the future of the country. She would agree that land reforms, mass education programmes, a health service and an independent foreign policy were positive constructive aims and crucial if the country was to be saved from the vultures in and out of uniform. Her constituency was the poor, and she was proud of the fact.

She changed again after becoming prime minister. In the early days, we would argue and in response to my numerous complaints - all she would say was that the world had changed. She couldn't be on the "wrong side" of history. And so, like many others, she made her peace with Washington. It was this that finally led to the deal with Musharraf and her return home after more than a decade in exile. On a number of occasions she told me that she did not fear death. It was one of the dangers of playing politics in Pakistan.

It is difficult to imagine any good coming out of this tragedy, but there is one possibility. Pakistan desperately needs a political party that can speak for the social needs of a bulk of the people. The People's party founded by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was built by the activists of the only popular mass movement the country has known: students, peasants and workers who fought for three months in 1968-69 to topple the country's first military dictator. They saw it as their party, and that feeling persists in some parts of the country to this day, despite everything.

Benazir's horrific death should give her colleagues pause for reflection. To be dependent on a person or a family may be necessary at certain times, but it is a structural weakness, not a strength for a political organisation. The People's party needs to be refounded as a modern and democratic organisation, open to honest debate and discussion, defending social and human rights, uniting the many disparate groups and individuals in Pakistan desperate for any halfway decent alternative, and coming forward with concrete proposals to stabilise occupied and war-torn Afghanistan. This can and should be done. The Bhutto family should not be asked for any more sacrifices.

-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 8:48pm

Please, tell the Americans that their collective low IQ average did it!

Al-qaeda is a mere figment of the US media's spin. It doesn't exist, it's decimated. All that's happening in today's Pakistan is CIA's (plus, Mossad's) doing - just for creating conditions for moving NATO forces - like the US did in Yugoslavia.



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 9:27pm

Not all Americans believe Al-Qaeda is behind everything the media says it is.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it doesn't exist, or rather, didn't exist.  Yet, I think many people are getting tired of everything getting tied to that organization.  It is obvious they are trying to keep a central enemy that the American people can support fighting.  If this idea of "Al-Qaeda" fell apart, then so would many of the US policies (we can't be having that of course). 

The smarter American people know this, but unfortunately the not so smart ones (the low IQ folks) believe the "Al-Qaeda" idea because it is easy.  They don't know any better and they will not bother to learn because it is easier to be a blind sheep to the goverments actions.

Anyway, don't shoot the messenger.  I am just passing on the latest news spin here.  I certainly don't agree with it.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 10:57pm

Anyway, don't shoot the messenger.  I am just passing on the latest news spin here.  I certainly don't agree with it.

I will never shoot the messenger for two reasons; my sights are in the other room and I am not really pushed to leave the comfort of my bed just to get those!

Plus, I am getting quite addicted to the messages!

Benazir aide says govt explanation ‘pack of lies’


ISLAMABAD, Dec 28: A top aide to slain opposition leader Benazir Bhutto on Friday rejected the government’s explanation of her death as a “pack of lies”.

The Pakistan interior ministry said Ms Bhutto died when she hit her head on her vehicle’s sunroof as she ducked after a gun and suicide attack on a campaign rally, and that no bullets or shrapnel were found in her.

“It is baseless. It is a pack of lies,” Farooq Naik, Ms Bhutto’s top lawyer and a senior official in her Pakistan People’s Party, told AFP.

“Two bullets hit her, one in the abdomen and one in the head,” Mr Naik said. “Bhutto’s personal secretary Naheed Khan and party official Makhdoom Amin Fahim were in the car and they saw what happened,” he said.

“It is an irreparable loss and they are turning it into a joke with such claims. The country is heading towards civil war.” Interior ministry spokesman Javed Cheema said earlier that the post-mortem on the populist opposition leader found her mortal wound came when she tried to duck after the bomber attacked.

“The government is now claiming that Baitullah Mehsud is responsible,” Mr Naik told AFP. “What is the evidence?”

He added: “She was taken to hospital. She was bleeding. It was a serious security lapse.”—AFP
 



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 1:35am

I wouldn't go so far as to say it doesn't exist, or rather, didn't exist. 

Listen, give me just less than a wee minute. Defense makes a lot of dollar sense? A never ending war may not be your dream or mine, but it's definitely the greatest find for the Industrial Compact.

It's the smartest scam to sweepclean your tax dollars in trillions not just in mere billions. It is the best industry, no one ever demands any product performance guarantees. If you are not satisfied with your T-shirt, you can take the till receipt and get a refund on it.

But, what do you get for 16 daisycutters you paid, with your tax deductions, last year if they don't go boom? (Other than the satisfaction that you have killed your share of Afghan infants)

Has anyone ever stood up to demand how much of his or her tax dollars are being spent on each Civilian Contractor? Defense spending has no field audits or checks at all.

All other trades, say construction, just for an instance, has performance and other regulatory standards laid out. We expect our money's worth even from a school teacher. It's just another matter that in our glorious Cap It All itis striken society, the poor woman doesn't earn, in her life time, what a footballer's delight can spend in a day's shopping.

War is the biggest money spinner. I am told even bigger than all the on-line casinos and the porn site put together. This machine has to be kept going. If we don't, we don't get the campaign funds we badly need for being able to place ourselves in the service of our absolutely beloved people!

We have time and again invented enemies to fight and destroy. Most of our past enemies were real and when we had destroyed our enemy, we had to pack up and sit on our stockpiles of all manners of wild and dangerous things. The collapse of the silly Soviet Union wasn't really a good thing. It made the whole lot of us redundant, just plain simple jobless.

Sometimes you must sit up and have a thought for all those poor Billionaires in their utter jobless plight. 

Their R & D gurus developed a brand new enemy after the Soviet Union collapsed. This enemy is not visible. It's just a virtual enemy. It's not real. Al-qaeda is a character coined by a Hollywood scriptwriter or some Presidential speech artist.

It never dies, it keeps growing and it is and can anywhere, like those Monstors Inc. ghosts. These days Bush uses the Al-Qaeda stickers for lumping together anyone and everyone who is fighting against the occupations of their countries, in Afghanistan, Iraq, anywhere.

Mush uses the same sticker for eliminating opposition to his illegal occupation of his own pobre people - of course, just and always backed by his only friend, Bush Mk II.

If Al-Qaeda exists why don't we negotiate a ceasefire with them? And, divert all these trillions we are losing into our healthcare, education and a bit of it for putting in better levies where these migt be needed.

My friend, Al-qaeda is a scam for emptying your pockets under the threat of invisible ghosts of your own fear!



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 1:39am

Sorry, forgot to add; it's as big a fraud as of keeping OBL alive. All the people in the world who know anything worth knowing know that the man died of renal failure, years ago.

But then we must keep him alive for spending some more of your dollars on finding him and that is quite a costly affair!



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 2:54am
Just straying slightly off topic (by the way, can the originator of the thread
go back and correct the spelling of Benazir please?) here's a documentary
worth watching detailing how the media are controlled, and how the
media control society.

Particularly pertinent is the section towards the end of the movie about
the creation of 'unfounded fears' among the population: the boogy man
Al Qaeda is just one of these fabrications, like 'gun violence' (aiming to
blame guns for going off and shooting people, rather than blaming
criminals) and the never ending war on 'terror'.

One of the most succesfull strategies of the Council on Foreign Relations
is the presentation of the problem AND the solution. Within the problem
there will always be some seeds of truth, but not easily identifiable-
hence we wonder does/did Al Qaeda exist at all- and the solution will
also present required actions which are not attractive (never ending war)
but sold to us as the ONLY possible solution, given the problem. It's like
the circle of the snake biting its tail.

There's no doubt Musharraff and Co have been extensively guided by
members of the CFR (as is G.W Bush) in these strategies. However,
Washington appears not to have noticed that they do not in fact control
Pakistan media, and in order for such strategies to work on any given
population, you have to control the media which feeds the population the
agreed propaganda.
(Sorry, can't get the Hyperlink button to work for me!)
[URL=http://video.google.com/videoplay?
docid=6632255652046262625]


Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 6:04am
Originally posted by poga

Originally posted by ak_m_f

Originally posted by Angela

She was killed because she was a woman who dared to run for office in that part of the world in today's society.


yes a corrupt woman.

Also she was US right hand. Good thing we got rid of her.
She promised to give AQ Khan to US.

No wonder west is crying for her, they lost their agent.

 

 Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : You beat me up black and blue just for HIJAB
Is it ALLAH'S pious punishment or your polluting AHJAB
If i am immodest let then ALLAH punish me
For this unsightly barriers and open revealing beauty
Why are you punishing me will you share my personal hell
Why do you break my vocal box to repair my wind pipe yell

from SWEETSWORDS 86 [ Comparative Religion ]

Mr Barzakh Fitarh Ullah : My common assault was in response to your grievous bodily harm
You pollute enemy of my pure pious SIAM
With intoxicating knockout wink and deadly milkshake
You injured the part what cannot tolerate the ache
With your bowl of sweetmeat you inflamed my boneless fleshy rod
And shed my drops more precious than oceans of blood

from SWEETSWORDS 86 [ Comparative Religion ]



-------------
awal


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 8:03am
Baitullah Mehsud denies killing Bhutto: spokesman PESHAWAR, Pakistan, Dec 29 (AFP) -An alleged Al-Qaeda leader Baitullah Mehsud, blamed by the Pakistan government for killing Benazir Bhutto, denied any involvement in her death, his spokesman told AFP on Saturday. “He had no involvement in this attack,” spokesman Maulana Omar said in a telephone call. “This is a conspiracy of the government, army and intelligence agencies.” The spokesman said he was calling from Pakistan's Waziristan area. “It is against tribal tradition and custom to attack a woman,” Omar said adding that the transcript released by the government, allegedly of a phone call between Mehsud and a militant discussing Bhutto's death after the fact, was a “drama”. He said it would have been “impossible” for militants to get through the security cordon around the campaign rally where she was killed. “Benazir was not only a leader of Pakistan but also a leader of international fame. We express our deep grief and shock over her death,” Omar said. (First Posted @ 12:13 PST; Updated @ 16:25 PST)

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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 8:08am

Benazir aide says bathed body, saw bullet wound ISLAMABAD, Dec 29 (AFP) Sherry Rehman, a close aide to Benazir Bhutto and also her spokeswoman, told AFP Saturday she saw a bullet wound in the Pakistani opposition leader's head when she bathed her body after her assassination. Rehman, who said she was in the former premier's motorcade at the time of the gun and suicide attack, rejected government claims that the death was caused when Benazir's head hit her sunroof. “I was actually part of the party which bathed her body before the funeral,” said Rehman, who added that her car was used to transport Benazir to hospital. “There was a bullet wound I saw that went in from the back of her head and came out the other side. “We could not even wash her properly because the wound was still seeping. She lost a huge amount of blood.” Rehman accused the government of mounting a cover-up over Benazir's death. “The hospital was made to change its statement. They never gave a proper report,” she said. “I believe the interior ministry is saying that she died from some concussion that may have taken place against the sunroof. This is ridiculous, dangerous nonsense because it is a cover-up of what actually happened.” (Posted @ 13:00 PST)

If she were killed by Al-Qaeda or whatever other figment of our programmed imagination, why would the Pakistani government go head over heels for such a cover up?



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 9:27am
On another site, where Skeptic commentators rule, I read this in relation
to the 'official' story line:

"Yup..She died of a skull fracture, just like one magic bullet hit JFK which
also hit Connoly seven times (?); Bush has an IQ of 185; Kissinger is the
tooth fairy; 19 Saudi hijackers took the US to its knees on 9/11; the 9/11
Commission Report deserves a Pulitzer Prize; JFK Jr. was a terrible pilot
(died in a private light aircraft accident,); Prescott Bush was a patriot; the
war on drugs is an incredible success; FOX News is fair and balanced; the
Pearl Harbor attack was a BIG SURPRISE; depleted uranium is harmless;
Iran has nuclear weapons aimed at the US; Israel is a pacifist nation, and
the US is spreading democracy in Iraq."

In any case, surely it would be the first time somebody inadvertently
killed themselves by bumping their head on the sunroof. It would have to
have been one tremendous bump. And one incredible 'accident' to have
died from bumping one's head when an assassin had fired two shots and
promptly exploded himself, killing 20 odd bystanders ...


Posted By: AhmadJoyia
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 11:10am

Well, whatever one may say about the political characaterization of BeNazir Bhutto (BB), one thing is clear from this killing is that danger to Pakistan is clearly from within its own people i.e. those who are Sympathesizers of 'Bin Laden' theology commonly known as "Muslim extremists". According to their convictions, world is eternally Bi-polarized by the very advent of (their) Islam. Thus any notion of "western" influence, how good it may otherwise be, should always be rejected simply because of its origin from "Darul Harb", a place of eternal fighting against (their) Islam. According to these extremists, who have now become the terrorists, it was BB's crime to get US support to transform the Military rule in Pakistan from the hands of Army General President Musharaf to Plain President Mushraf. In contrast to a common understanding where the enemy of an enemy could be seen as a friend, these fanatics consdiered her as a priority one target,probably because of following reasons:

(i) BB got support from "Darul Harb" to pressurise a democratic rule in the country.

(ii) BB has vowed to curb the terrorists the same way as Mush is doing.

(iii) Its BB's crime to be a women and yet ask for leadership of their country.

(iv) It is the right time to "Nip the evil in the bud" where she don't have the luxury of Govt's protection/security just like Mush have it.

 in the end, I would say, the country has lost a big opportunity to move forward towards moderation and development through democracy.

 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 11:58am
Other possible scenarios a hit ordered by her  opponents who tried to kill her on her return from exile in Karachi i.e., MQM killers or Mush's political own political party etc. These political parties stood to loose most while her being around!
I will bet my latest shirt on this, Brother.

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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 12:04pm

in the end, I would say, the country has lost a big opportunity to move forward towards moderation and development through democracy.

Sir, very late Eid Mubarek.

And, the country will move forward towards moderation and development through democracy with Mush sitting on the rubble a demolished judiciary?

The poor woman was also scared of reinstating the judges.



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 2:45pm

I've listened in silence long enough and I am seriously disgusted by you all.

A human being has been murdered.  Who cares what her politics were, how you spell her name (Duende), or whether it is now appropriate to call her simply by her last name (Whisper): a fact, not a person.  Easy to objectify then, verdad? And don't try to sell me your McDemocracy - I've heard it from you before ad nauseum, and even first hand. And Whisper, for Goodness sake, learn to quote your sources: this is a Forum, not a personal conversation!

Intelligent people, perhaps people with influence (?), with brilliant insights, and so much destruction at their fingertips.  For shame...when you could be putting it to so much better use.

For that matter: why does "Angela's Plan" resurface after so long just to be taken out of context, and systematically destroyed?  A needless rhetorical question it would seem.

I'd rather die naive and full of hope, than a cynic in a so-called intelligent world.

Maybe you all shoud look at a few more recent definitions of Intelligence. Try Gardner, and Goleman, for a start.

I don't know why I bother.

I come here to learn and all you people do with your pot boiling and your cynicism and negativity is to make me very, very sad.

I stand by my last post on Angela's Plan, and all you seem to do is to try to make your self-fulfilling prophecies hold water.

But then, no one listened to the original Cassandra either.

Why can't you put your petty differences aside, try to find a personal and collective compassionate synapse or two, and concentrate on a peaceful solution before so much more blood is shed?

No wonder Islam is so misunderstood in the West, and I have made so many attempts to try to understand.

Enough alreadyBasta ya!  Can't you just learn to grieve, for the fate of the world without making this tragedy into a personal soapbox? I see nothing constructive in this thread.

C



Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 3:29pm

If anyone cares, please see my last post on Angela's Plan.

C



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 3:43pm

A human being has been murdered. 

. . . or whether it is now appropriate to call her simply by her last name (Whisper)

My friend, it seems that you are mixing my post up with something else. Could you specify where am I trying to sell someone's last name?

And don't try to sell me your McDemocracy

Sorry, wrong number, I am not the McDemocracy merchant. It's the Americans who were trying to set up a McDemocracy in Pakistan, by matching her up with a despot. I don't have the time or the desire to go into the details of everything that they have been trying to stitch up in that country.

And Whisper, for Goodness sake, learn to quote your sources: this is a Forum, not a personal conversation!

I am afraid, when I copy and paste I post it complete with the author's ref. Unfortunately, in this and quite a few other instances, I happen to be the the source. If you have any issues with my posts, please just pass, I promise, I won't turn grey.

Politics is politics, it's not some soppy story. She knew the stakes and still decided to play her hand. She was a marked woman the day she agreed that deal to paint a dictator in kosher colours, with an election brush.

Please don't get angry with us. MQM (head quarters in London) seem to be the most likely lads, she was eating heavily into their Sind vote bank, please, take them to task, I promise, none of us dunn it.



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 3:52pm

My friend, you seem to have no clue at all about the situation in that region or about the person we are talking about and this seems to upset you for nothing. Shall it not be better to talk about something else?

If you insist, this may help you:

“The fact is that she was parachuted in by Washington in order to win a rigged election in a country where just about every power group absolutely hated her, a recipe for disaster.  It is not so much a question of who killed her, but who got the first opportunity to succeed.” 



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 4:33pm

Post deleted.  I realise I have fallen into my own trap.  And while in metaphor mode, the landscape looks surprisingly like Plato's cave.

 

 



Posted By: Cassandra
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 4:43pm

Oh, and just one last thing before I go, which shouldn't go unnoticed:

From a quote by Duende, for whose intellect and knowledge I have always had the utmost respect even if we are coming at issues from a different perspective:

"there was no need to massacre so many people if the target was simply a political leader." (emphasis mine)

Duende, did you really think about this before you wrote it?  If you did, I am truly frightened of and for you ..

Cassie over and out



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 5:07pm

Hmm

I think that there is a lot of grief for the thousands of people all over  the world who are dying due to corruption and greed. BB and the others who died are more casulties of this.



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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 11:40pm

I think that there is a lot of grief for the thousands of people all over  the world who are dying due to corruption and greed. BB and the others who died are more casulties of this.

Over 300 men, women and cute little children, some just sucklers, are killed by these grand masters of Democracy, freedom and Liberty, EVERY SINGLE DAY.

And, these are added on to a register maintained in the name of a ghost, possibly, created by I have no idea who, but for sure for their own people - called Al-Qaeda.

And, nobody sheds even a crocodile's tear.

An American agent dies and comapssion oozes out of people who slept when over a million Iraqi men, women and children were dusted off the map of some land with the hidden treasure.

And, I should accept it as intellect? Compassion and all of that. I am not running away, just going for the second cup of tea. In the meanwhile read this and do your home work, I will be asking quite a few questions:

Pakistan's flawed and feudal princess



It's wrong for the West simply to mourn Benazir Bhutto as a martyred democrat, says this acclaimed south Asia expert. Her legacy is far murkier and more complex

William Dalrymple
Sunday December 30, 2007
http://www.observer.co.uk/ - The Observer

One of Benazir Bhutto's more dubious legacies to Pakistan is the Prime Minister's house in the middle of Islamabad. The building is a giddy, pseudo-Mexican ranch house with white walls and a red tile roof. There is nothing remotely Islamic about the building which, as my minder said when I went there to interview the then Prime Minister Bhutto, was 'PM's own design'. Inside, it was the same story. Crystal chandeliers dangled sometimes two or three to a room; oils of sunflowers and tumbling kittens that would have looked at home on the Hyde Park railings hung below garishly gilt cornices.

The place felt as though it might be the weekend retreat of a particularly flamboyant Latin-American industrialist, but, in fact, it could have been anywhere. Had you been shown pictures of the place on one of those TV game-shows where you are taken around a house and then have to guess who lives there, you may have awarded this hacienda to virtually anyone except, perhaps, to the Prime Minister of an impoverished Islamic republic situated next door to Iran.

Which is, of course, exactly why the West always had a soft spot for Benazir Bhutto. Her neighbouring heads of state may have been figures as unpredictable and potentially alarming as President Ahmadinejad of Iran and a clutch of opium-trading Afghan warlords, but Bhutto has always seemed reassuringly familiar to Western governments - one of us. She spoke English fluently because it was her first language. She had an English governess, went to a convent run by Irish nuns and rounded off her education with degrees from Harvard and Oxford.

'London is like a second home for me,' she once told me. 'I know London well. I know where the theatres are, I know where the shops are, I know where the hairdressers are. I love to browse through Harrods and WH Smith in Sloane Square. I know all my favourite ice cream parlours. I used to particularly love going to the one at Marble Arch: Baskin Robbins. Sometimes, I used to drive all the way up from Oxford just for an ice cream and then drive back again. That was my idea of sin.'

It was difficult to imagine any of her neighbouring heads of state, even India's earnest Sikh economist, Manmohan Singh, talking like this.

For the Americans, what Benazir Bhutto wasn't was possibly more attractive even than what she was. She wasn't a religious fundamentalist, she didn't have a beard, she didn't organise rallies where everyone shouts: 'Death to America' and she didn't issue fatwas against Booker-winning authors, even though Salman Rushdie ridiculed her as the Virgin Ironpants in his novel Shame.

However, the very reasons that made the West love Benazir Bhutto are the same that gave many Pakistanis second thoughts. Her English might have been fluent, but you couldn't say the same about her Urdu which she spoke like a well-groomed foreigner: fluently, but ungrammatically. Her Sindhi was even worse; apart from a few imperatives, she was completely at sea.

English friends who knew Benazir at Oxford remember a bubbly babe who drove to lectures in a yellow MG, wintered in Gstaad and who to used to talk of the thrill of walking through Cannes with her hunky younger brother and being 'the centre of envy; wherever Shahnawaz went, women would be bowled over'.

This Benazir, known to her friends as Bibi or Pinky, adored royal biographies and slushy romances: in her old Karachi bedroom, I found stacks of well-thumbed Mills and Boons including An Affair to Forget, Sweet Imposter and two copies of The Butterfly and the Baron. This same Benazir also had a weakness for dodgy Seventies easy listening - 'Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Old Oak Tree' was apparently at the top of her playlist. This is also the Benazir who had an enviable line in red-rimmed fashion specs and who went weak at the sight of marrons glace.

But there was something much more majestic, even imperial, about the Benazir I met when she was Prime Minister. She walked and talked in a deliberately measured and regal manner and frequently used the royal 'we'. At my interview, she took a full three minutes to float down the 100 yards of lawns separating the Prime Minister's house from the chairs where I had been told to wait for her. There followed an interlude when Benazir found the sun was not shining in quite the way she wanted it to. 'The sun is in the wrong direction,' she announced. Her hair was arranged in a sort of baroque beehive topped by a white gauze dupatta. The whole painted vision reminded me of one of those aristocratic Roman princesses in Caligula

This Benazir was a very different figure from that remembered by her Oxford contemporaries. This one was renowned throughout Islamabad for chairing 12-hour cabinet meetings and for surviving on four hours' sleep. This was the Benazir who continued campaigning after the suicide bomber attacked her convoy the very day of her return to Pakistan in October, and who blithely disregarded the mortal threat to her life in order to continue fighting. This other Benazir Bhutto, in other words, was fearless, sometimes heroically so, and as hard as nails.

More than anything, perhaps, Benazir was a feudal princess with the aristocratic sense of entitlement that came with owning great tracts of the country and the Western-leaning tastes that such a background tends to give. It was this that gave her the sophisticated gloss and the feudal grit that distinguished her political style. In this, she was typical of many Pakistani politicians. Real democracy has never thrived in Pakistan, in part because landowning remains the principle social base from which politicians emerge.

The educated middle class is in Pakistan still largely excluded from the political process. As a result, in many of the more backward parts of Pakistan, the feudal landowner expects his people to vote for his chosen candidate. As writer Ahmed Rashid put it: 'In some constituencies, if the feudals put up their dog as a candidate, that dog would get elected with 99 per cent of the vote.'

Today, Benazir is being hailed as a martyr for freedom and democracy, but far from being a natural democrat, in many ways, Benazir was the person who brought Pakistan's strange variety of democracy, really a form of 'elective feudalism', into disrepute and who helped fuel the current, apparently unstoppable, growth of the Islamists. For Bhutto was no Aung San Suu Kyi. During her first 20-month premiership, astonishingly, she failed to pass a single piece of major legislation. Amnesty International accused her government of having one of the world's worst records of custodial deaths, killings and torture.

Within her party, she declared herself the lifetime president of the PPP and refused to let her brother Murtaza challenge her. When he persisted in doing so, he ended up shot dead in highly suspicious circumstances outside the family home. Murtaza's wife Ghinwa and his daughter Fatima, as well as Benazir's mother, all firmly believed that Benazir gave the order to have him killed.

As recently as the autumn, Benazir did and said nothing to stop President Musharraf ordering the US and UK-brokered 'rendition' of her rival, Nawaz Sharif, to Saudi Arabia and so remove from the election her most formidable rival. Many of her supporters regarded her deal with Musharraf as a betrayal of all her party stood for.

Behind Pakistan's endless swings between military government and democracy lies a surprising continuity of elitist interests: to some extent, Pakistan's industrial, military and landowning classes are all interrelated and they look after each other. They do not, however, do much to look after the poor. The government education system barely functions in Pakistan and for the poor, justice is almost impossible to come by. According to political scientist Ayesha Siddiqa: 'Both the military and the political parties have all failed to create an environment where the poor can get what they need from the state. So the poor have begun to look to alternatives for justice. In the long term, flaws in the system will create more room for the fundamentalists.'

In the West, many right-wing commentators on the Islamic world tend to see the march of political Islam as the triumph of an anti-liberal and irrational 'Islamo-fascism'. Yet much of the success of the Islamists in countries such as Pakistan comes from the Islamists' ability to portray themselves as champions of social justice, fighting people such as Benazir Bhutto from the Islamic elite that rules most of the Muslim world from Karachi to Beirut, Ramallah and Cairo.

This elite the Islamists successfully depict as rich, corrupt, decadent and Westernised. Benazir had a reputation for massive corruption. During her government, the anti-corruption organisation Transparency International named Pakistan one of the three most corrupt countries in the world.

Bhutto and her husband, Asif Zardari, widely known as 'Mr 10 Per Cent', faced allegations of plundering the country. Charges were filed in Pakistan, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States to investigate their various bank accounts.

When I interviewed Abdul Rashid Ghazi in the Islamabad Red Mosque shortly before his death in the storming of the complex in July, he kept returning to the issue of social justice: 'We want our rulers to be honest people,' he said. 'But now the rulers are living a life of luxury while thousands of innocent children have empty stomachs and can't even get basic necessities.' This is the reason for the rise of the Islamists in Pakistan and why so many people support them: they are the only force capable of taking on the country's landowners and their military cousins.

This is why in all recent elections, the Islamist parties have hugely increased their share of the vote, why they now already control both the North West Frontier Province and Baluchistan and why it is they who are most likely to gain from the current crisis.

Benazir Bhutto was a courageous, secular and liberal woman. But sadness at the demise of this courageous fighter should not mask the fact that as a pro-Western feudal leader who did little for the poor, she was as much a central part of Pakistan's problems as the solution to them.

· William Dalrymple's latest book, The Last Mughal: The Fall of a Dynasty, Delhi 1857, published by Bloomsbury, recently won the Duff Cooper Prize for History



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 12:01am
Canssandra your point has been well heard. Unfortunately when our biases come into effect of others, we lose sight of the human-ness of the person. I agree with the statement "a human has been murdered." But unfortunately while evaluating current events (and other subjects) people sometimes disintergrate the the human in others and respond to people as though they are objects.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 12:54am
Cassie over and out : I don't believe you know much more than the rest of us.  I'm not fooled like the others are.  Don't forget...

I don't know if I will ever get the answer to a few questions I have cuz of your effort to put the blast on Sasha:

How old are you? (your profile is blank)or U are in Sasha's ball park!

What do you know about the realities of lives of enslaved in the
subcontinent?

Have you read Machiavelli?



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 12:59am
Cassandra, if it is true that you really would rather "die naive and full of
hope, than a cynic in a so-called intelligent world." Then you should not
take the trouble to participate in this forum.

Reactions to politician's deaths always bring out the best and the worst in
people, take the Reuter's page of reactions: NOTHING but talk of 'market
reactions' not a crocodile tear for this human being.

That is the sum total of the developed world's priorities. Not a single
mainstream media has brought up the subject of Benazir's (perhaps if you
knew what the name means you wouldn't be so glib about the spelling,
and it is merely a common mark of respect to call someone, dead or alive,
by their name, correctly.) her involvment in the assassination of her own
brother, or the imprisonments and exiles of judiciary and opposition
party members which happened during her terms. If one were not a
significant political leader, these things would perhaps be forgiven as we
acknowledge the violent death of another human being? But I don't recall
you criticising us over the lynching of Saddam Hussein...

You seem to be demanding answers to questions even leader writers in
the Washington Post can only speculate on: what next for Pakistan. And
what about what's next for her orphaned children? Did Benazir give this
deep thought before signing her own death warrant in the hands of her
Washington masters? I don't know, perhaps she really did try to prepare
her children psychologically for the possibility that she would die a
violent death. She certainly could do nothing to prepare them
emotionally.

Cassie, we are all the victims of our circumstances. Your knowledge and
esteem for this human being has been carefully sculpted by the
information you've been given. Everywhere in the western press she is
being treated as though the Great Hope for Pakistan has died. Why is
nobody talking about the legitimately elected PM who was kicked out
unceremoniously by Mush, and who has been banned from participating
in upcoming elections? Of course, if you would prefer to remain naive,
the mainstream media is only to help you. But if you truly want to
understand and gain knowledge you must drop the scales from your eyes
and be prepared for some upsetting news.

Forgive us Cassie, we are mere humans. Perhaps if we were angels, we
might be able to truly forgive and forget the actions any and every human
being perpetrated during their life time. But somehow I feel our human
world would disintegrate pretty fast if that were the case.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 1:18am
Good Point


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 2:37am
  Let's run through this murder in the way that detective Bill Bratton  might have done in his policeman's notebook long before he became the top cop in Los Angeles..

Question: Who forced Benazir in exile Bhutto to stay in UK, US, Dubai and tried to prevent her return to Pakistan? Answer:
Dictator Mush.

Question: Who ordered the arrest of thousands of Benazir's party workers recently after sacking of the whole judiciary? Answer: Dictator Mush.

Question: Who placed Benazir under house arrests  after her return to Pakistan? Answer: 
Dictator Mush.

Question: Who declared martial law last month? Answer 
Dictator Mush.

Question: who killed Benazir ?

Er. Yes. Well quite.

You see the problem? saw on Pakiland  TV the PPP members shouting that Musharraf was a "murderer" were complaining he had not provided sufficient security for Benazir.
Wrong. They were shouting this because they believe he let her be killed and they need to know who benefited most and that answer  need to be found!



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 6:04am

Sasha

"Let's talk about something else." "Upset for nothing"? Excuse me?

My friend, it’s always best to talk of simpler things when we are as out of breath if not simply out of depth as you happen to be right now. I have never seen you upset at all the other Humans being killed, left right and centre, day in and twice by the night.

 

Is it because those are killed, by our own boys or do they happen to be lesser humans for they ispeak no English?

But I am trying to get to grips with the sheer anger and confusion I am feeling right now

If you knew anything about how the US stooges are treated in some lands, since their War on Terror circus, you won’t have been frying in such anger. Plus, if you knew that her slain brother’s Al-Zulfikar is also one of the suspects, you would have been as calm as many of us.

 

Please have a glass of water, if not some dry Anis, and read this passage:

Within her party, she declared herself the lifetime president of the PPP and refused to let her brother Murtaza challenge her. When he persisted in doing so, he ended up shot dead in highly suspicious circumstances outside the family home. Murtaza's wife Ghinwa and his daughter Fatima, as well as Benazir's mother, all firmly believed that Benazir gave the order to have him killed.

and no, your usual rhetoric ain't gonna work this time, sorry.

I will pass this comment in sheer sympathy for your exceptionally innocent overreaction.

Try reading mine with more compassion and less ego. Perhaps I am just a "voice in the Wilderness":

My friend, I have read and also re-read your mails, but I have miserably failed at making any head or tail of these. I promise you, I would have joined you wholeheartedly if we had some proof of such compassion also for those thousands killed every single day of the week, without any respite.

 

I am unable to be a party to any such exclusive and classic compassion.

You of all people are in a position to say something constructive about the future.

What’s wrong with the future?

Since when future came to be hinged to someone who robbed her people of approx. 2.4 billion and had agreed to act as the US mole just for her lust of power.

 

Yes, the future of the McDemocracy that the US were attempting to stitch up in Pakistan is definitely now in tatters. I didn’t realise your future was linked with that of the State Department’s?

What happens to Pakistan now? 

What was she?

Some Gaad or a mother hen hatching Pakistan in her barn? Pakistan is safe. She was only interested in saving her position, never had any sympathy for any country, ever. Her death will force a dictator to run away. This has already forced the Washington arm twisters to see that all their designs do not go as planned.

 

Pakistan just needs a rule of law?

They need a government of their own choice, not one that was being imposed on them, by London or Washington. (Please, have another glass of water and just try and understand McDemocracy).

 

Just one question for you; do the people of Pakistan have any right to govern themselves?

Or, you think they are all idiots just because they don’t speak enough English?

What can you tell us, the World, about the affect these events may have on all our future?

I didn’t realise your future was placed at such a delicate position that it would roll off the rails just with one person’s death? Let me remind you as a friend that your future id blackened by all those other deaths going on day and night, IN YOUR NAME.

Your diatribes against America wear me out.

I am glad, my words don’t kill like the American guns and greed, these just wear you out!

I would see how much you would shout and scream had they trampled your country and were killing even one tenth of the people they are killing in mine.

 

Do I remember correctly, in this very post, you did mention compassion, somewhere?

. . . other than drinking whiskey with Musharaff you don't seem to have much respect for him either

I have just a wee bit of Capricorn in me, I have far better drinking companions, poets, artists, writers and also a few old actor friends. I didn’t invite Mush in even when he had visited us, years ago, with a cousin who was his classmate at the college - some strange vibes!

 

It’s a mere rumour. He doesn’t visit us on his evening Lahore trips, he goes to his good old pal Zee’s house, the next street, just in between ours and the Sharif’s.

nor the hatred in your homeland. We, as a species, are worth more.

What hatred?

Do people have any right to protect ourselves against Anglo-American designs?

Where was this hatred in the pre 1999 days?

It’s the most expensive of any Duty-Free imports, delivered to us from 52,000 feet up in the air and through hordes of NATO troops wandering in Afghanistan and now also expected to arrive in Pakistan, next month.

 

If you are really concerned with your future, please, start mourning this grand arrival of the NATO troops in Pakistan as they will meet the Afghan and Pakistani forces, combined.

(There are more Afghans in Pakistan than in Hamid Krazai’s watch!!!)

-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 6:09am

America urges PML-N, other parties to contest polls

By Anwer Iqbal

WAHINGTON, Dec 29: The United States is urging all moderate political forces in Pakistan, including the PML-N, to participate in the national elections.

A senior State Department official told a briefing in Washington that US diplomats were reaching out to moderate Pakistani political parties in the wake of Benazir Bhutto’s assassination, urging them to join in the election process and to cooperate in fighting extremism.

Officials say Undersecretary for Political Affairs Nicolas Burns and Assistant Secretary for South Asia Richard Boucher are leading the effort, and calls have been made to, among others, PML-N leaders.

What are the Amrecanos doing if not packaging some McDemocracy burgers in that pobre country. Is it my fault people react to their vulgar greed and Imperialistic desires?



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by Cassandra

If anyone cares, please see my last post on Angela's Plan.

C


C
You are beating about the bush instead of bringing some thing worthwhile.
The Plan went to the POND and drowned as expected.
People living in west are totally oblivious to realities of neo colonialism.
Only the victims know where it hurts and how much!

Now as long as this thread has a sticky on it I am going to use it as Iraq collage; out with other riffraff!
I would request Angela to change Angela's Plan if possible to IRAQI COLLAGE.


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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 9:14pm

Braderaan tay Hamsheeraan e Islam y Non-Musalman pleeze forget everything else in this whole wide (Or, is it wild?) world, just solve this one!!!

US concerns

PRESIDENT Bush is reported to have consulted close aides about the critical turn the situation in Pakistan has taken following Benazir Bhutto’s murder, and the dominant concern emerging out of these contacts has been about the steps the US should take to maintain stability since, should things go out of hand, its interests would suffer. The Americans fear that the incident would encourage militants to intensify their activities in the country and that other important personalities could become their target. And if the militants pose serious challenge, one view was that Washington would be compelled to support President Musharraf. Besides, the US is also in touch with other big powers to stress the point that ‘the political process developing Pakistan’s democracy continues.” But how could propping up President Musharraf, whose public ratings have fallen abysmally low, be reconciled with promoting the institution of democracy beats one’s mind.

The simple question is: Is this situation being created by the US services to create a situation in which the US actively intervenes to prop Musharref?

Specially and in wake of the fact that the US forces start to arrive in Pakistan in January - albeit - to train and assist Pakistani forces - under an agreement executed by Mush in the smoke screen of the emergency!!!!!



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 31 December 2007 at 12:51am
Well, there are allegations back and forth on this woman's corruption/promise of change.

I look at it like this...

Show me one leader that does not have corruption in their government. 

Who lodged the allegations against her and previously her father?  The ones who took power afterwards...

Where was her trial?  It really doesn't matter about truth or fiction.  Every individual, political or not, has the basic right to have the charges read against them in a court and to have those charges answered.  This never happened.  So, going from the Western mindset, you are innocent until proven guilty.

I am not convinced this was Al-Qaeda as Musharref is claiming.  It might be pro-Taliban sympathizers, but the young man who killed her and then blew himself up was clean cut.  Not the stereotypical islamist bogeyman sold to us by the Bush Admin.  He could have been from a number of sources.

The thing that has me the most upset is one man (whether he was working for someone or alone) removed public choice.  I think that AK is mistaken that Pakistani people are so completely uneducated.

Musharref is a dictator wrapped in lies of reform.  He's no better than any other dictator.  He's just a successor in a long line of puppets.  No matter who wins elections, you can be guaranteed of three things.

1.) They will be corrupt.  There is no such thing as an honest politician.

2.) Nothing will change... and if too many changes are attempted, they will be deposed and another dictator will take over.  Its the nature of the beast.  Historically supported.

3.) No matter who sits in the Capital as PM or President, its not going to change a darn thing with the criminal elements ravaging both Afghanistan and Pakistan.  The opium trade, Taliban, old tired freedom fighters trying to find a new Soviet Union.  They won't go away.  They only way this will go away is for the tribal peoples to wake up and realize that they only bring misery.

Benazir Bhutto was one of the women I admired.  She may have been corrupt, but that is neither hear nor there.  She returned knowing that her life would be in danger from many sides.  She knew the risks and took it anyway.  She died doing what she believed in. I only hope that her death inspires more courage to stand up and not fear to keep the cycle of repression in place.

On a personal note....Duende.  I do not believe ISLAM oppresses women.  That is the doing of MEN.  I believe that men all over the world are more or less pigs, including here in the US.  Its just a different type of oppression here.  Instead of locking up the women, our men expect women to wear skimpy skirts and revealing tops.  I think there is a distinctly patriarchal and chauvinistic attitude in that area of the world.  Especially when I'm told the only reason I complain about something is that I'm a woman therefore I get depressed.  So, please give me some shred of credit when it comes to what Islam teaches and what the culture expects.  Pakistan was influenced by Hindu society for 5000 years.  Indian society places no value on women.  Arab society did not value women, Muhammed (pbuh) tried to change that.  Unfortunately, people have a habit of only listening to what they want to and not to the whole message of a Prophet. 

Benazir was a woman caught between politics and culture.  When she was elected previously, the country was more stable.  The War of Terror has changed that.  What progressive steps Pakistan had are being lost the same way the progressive nature of Afghanistan was lost with the invasion by the USSR and the subsequent overthrow of that occupation.  If Pakistan is not careful, what they have accomplished will be lost to international politics and zealots.  The threats facing Pakistan are both external and internal...I personally feel the internal ones are more dangerous.  Nawaz Sharif is a snake waiting.  Musharref is a desperate despot trying to hold power.  So, with Benazir gone, the choices are less, the risk greater.  I do believe her sex had more to do with her death.  I haven't seen any bombs seriously targeting Nawaz...only a little one.  And certainly, Musharref hasn't had too many assassination attempts recently, so why Benazir and not the others...answer, She was the real threat for change to occur.

Do I think she was a Saint?  Never.  But some of the best leaders know how to play the game, just look at history.  I do believe she represented the hope of millions that change was coming.


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Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 31 December 2007 at 2:34am
Angela:
Since joining this forum ak and I have been at odds in most of the discussions we have been in but I hate to say that I agree with every statement he has made about this subject. It is not just her but her father ZAB was her trainer in the art of the kickbacks. ZAB learned from his dad who was he? Let me tell you point blank in the British colonial times that was the only game in town for the officials who ever got into the echelon! Who gave a damn about the salary! It is getting a bit late and I need to hit the sack. more later



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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: candid
Date Posted: 31 December 2007 at 7:36am

This thread reminds me of Stalin's gem:

A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.

Frankly, I don't give a damn about BB's death. Many innoncent people are killed in large numbers every month, the world keeps quiet and the presstitute doesn't consider it important.



Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 31 December 2007 at 7:57am
Angela, from your original post it did appear your first conclusion was
that she was assassinated because she was a woman. As you can see
from the different posts that have succeeded (and the strange fact that
she was not killed throughout the two terms of her 'reign'- despite being
a woman, and in power) this is not just a matter of personal viewpoint. It
can safely be said categorically she was not killed because she was a
woman. But not everybody will see this as clearly as I and some others do.

Needless to say, I agree with most of your assessment on the basic nature
of men and the patriarchal societies we tolerate, and encourage!

Meanwhile, I can not agree with your approval of Benazir, saying all
politicians are corrupt is hardly an excuse for permitting the murder of
your own brother. As a politician, she does command broad support,but
contrary to the Western media's portrayal of the looting and violence
going on as being the result of angry and upset supporters, the violence
is purely symptomatic of the economic 'miracle' wrought by Musharraff.
The "progressive steps' you perceive in Pakistan are more the result of
media spin, than any real progress within the country, and in fact boil
down to a 'westernisation' of society. Creating a maleable consumer base.

This IMF-inspired economic miracle has bloated the coffers of private
business and individuals while selling off the state infrastructure to the
best (foreign) bidder, completely ignoring the massive population of
village dwellers whose lives have only gotten worse as prices have risen.
The Western media like to portray these unwashed massess as the root of
Benazir's popularity, when the truth is she could not even speak their
language.

The rioters are simply taking advantage of the momentary lapse in police
and army attention, and taking some small revenge for their misery.
Watching the Nouveau Riche (newly middle-class) drive around in their
Toyotas and Suzukis, sipping Coke at the new Coffee house, and buying
Oakley sunglasses while they are expected to sweep the floor and hold
the door open, can get tedious, even when you have a wide screen
plasma TV to go home to. During Benazir's previous two terms, things
did not get any better for them, and the promise of change and hope for
a stable future was not one shared by the lower classes who have seen
absolutely no improvement in their daily lot since Musharraff kicked out
Nawaz. Meat is still rationed, and milk practically impossible to buy.

Here's an extract from an article at globalresearch.com which says clearly
what I feel is the ultimate plan for Pakistan: Balkanisation.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7705

"Strong Economic Medicine": Weakening Pakistan's Central Government

Pakistan has federal structure based on federal provincial transfers. Under
a fderal structure, the central government transfers financial resources to
the provinces, with a view to supporting provincial based programs. When
these transfers are frozen as occurred in Yugoslavia in January 1990, on
orders of the IMF, the federal fiscal structure collapses:

"State revenues that should have gone as transfer payments to the
republics [of the Yugoslav federation] went instead to service Belgrade's
debt ... . The republics were largely left to their own devices. ... The
budget cuts requiring the redirection of federal revenues towards debt
servicing, were conducive to the suspension of transfer payments by
Belgrade to the governments of the Republics and Autonomous Provinces.

In one fell swoop, the reformers had engineered the final collapse of
Yugoslavia's federal fiscal structure and mortally wounded its federal
political institutions. By cutting the financial arteries between Belgrade
and the republics, the reforms fueled secessionist tendencies that fed on
economic factors as well as ethnic divisions, virtually ensuring the de
facto secession of the republics. (Michel Chossudovsky, The Globalization
of Poverty and the New World Order, Second Edition, Global Research,
Montreal, 2003, Chapter 17.)

It is by no means accidental that the 2005 National Intelligence Council-
CIA report had predicted a "Yugoslav-like fate" for Pakistan pointing to
the impacts of "economic mismanagement" as one of the causes of
political break-up and balkanization. "Economic mismanagement" is a
term used by the Washington based international financial institutions to
describe the chaos which results from not fully abiding by the IMF's
Structural Adjustment Program. In actual fact, the "economic
mismanagement" and chaos is the outcome of IMF-World Bank
prescriptions, which precipitate indebted countries into extreme poverty.

Pakistan was subjected to the same deadly IMF "economic medicine" as
Yugoslavia: In 1999, in the immediate wake of the coup d'Etat which
brought General Pervez Musharaf to the helm of the military government,
an IMF economic package, which included currency devaluation and
drastic austerity measures, was imposed on Pakistan. Pakistan's external
debt is of the order of US$40 billion. The IMF's "debt reduction" under
the package was conditional upon the sell-off to foreign capital of the
most profitable State owned enterprises at rockbottom prices .

Musharaf's Finance Minister was chosen by Wall Street, which is not an
unusual practice. The military rulers appointed at Wall Street's behest, a
vice-president of Citigroup, Shaukat Aziz, who at the time was head of
CitiGroup's Global Private Banking. (See WSWS.org, 30 October 1999).
CitiGroup is among the largest commercial foreign banking institutions in
Pakistan.

There are obvious similarities in the nature of US covert intelligence
operations. The latter are often synchronized with the IMF-World Bank
macro-economic reforms. In this regard, Yugoslavia's federal fiscal
structure collapsed in 1990 leading to mass poverty and heightened
ethnic and social divisions. The US and NATO sponsored "civil war"
launched in mid-1991 consisted in coveting Islamic groups as well as
channeling covert support to separatist paramilitary armies in Bosnia and
Kosovo.

A similar "civil war" scenario has been envisaged for Pakistan by the
National Intelligence Council and the CIA: From the point of view of US
intelligence, which has a longstanding experience in abetting separatist
"liberation armies", "Greater Albania" is to Kosovo what "Greater
Balochistan" is to Pakistan's Southeastern Balochistan province. Similarly,
the KLA is Washington chosen model, to be replicated in regards to the
Balochistan Liberation Army (BLA).   

The Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

Benazir Bhutto was assassinated in Rawalpindi, no ordinary city.
Rawalpindi is a military city host to the headquarters of the Pakistani
Armed Forces and Military Intelligence (ISI). Ironically Bhutto was
assassinated in an urban area tightly controlled and guarded by the
military police and the country's elite forces. Rawalpindi is swarming with
ISI intelligence officials, which invariably infiltrate political rallies. Her
assassination was not a haphazard event.

Without evidence, quoting Pakistan government sources, the Western
media in chorus has highlighted the role of Al-Qaeda, while also focusing
on the the possible involvement of the ISI.

What these interpretations do not mention is that the ISI continues to play
a key role in overseeing Al Qaeda on behalf of US intelligence. The press
reports fail to mention two important and well documented facts:

1) the ISI maintains close ties to the CIA. The ISI is virtually an appendage
of the CIA.

2) Al Qaeda is a creation of the CIA. The ISI provides covert support to Al
Qaeda, acting on behalf of US intelligence.

The involvement of either Al Qaeda and/or the ISI would suggest that US
intelligence was cognizant and/or implicated in the assassination plot.




Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 31 December 2007 at 5:41pm

Angela, I agree with the basic theme of what you are saying, but a few holes need to be plugged to make it a bit real and, as our S*R would say, I would put my two cents for those holes.


Who lodged the allegations against her and previously her father? 

Better we start with ZAB, her father, a man who I came to know, personally, because of a range of our mutual friends and grew to admire some positive aspects of his person.

 

There were no allegations against him at all.

A regular FIR was filed and a murder case registered against him (at Ichhra police station, Lahore) when he was the head of state, by a Ahmad Raza Khan also lovingly known as Ahmaq (idiot) Raza khan by his intimate friends and the family, for his utter eccentric behaviour.

 

Ahmad was a primary Founder member of the PPP and one of the six or so persons who made ZAB’s break through possible in Punjab, the largest Pakistani province.

 

ZAB was not the elected Prime Minister of Pakistan as our ;oveable media would love to paint him. The Awami League had swept a landslide victory in the 1970 elections and, Mujeeb ur Rehman was, obviously, invited by Yahya Khan to form the government.

 

A National Assembly session was called to be held in Dacca.

But our friend ZAB was a great democrat. He was okay with it, but it seems that his feudality couldn’t allow him to sit on the opposition benches. The great man threw tantrums of his defeat and openly (it’s all on record) threatened to break the legs of anyone who even attempted to go to Dacca for that Assembly Session! ZAB would break Pakistan, but never let a chance of power run through his fingers!

 

Ahmaq Raza tried his best to reason with ZAB but it didn't work. From that day Ahmad was a marked man. I have the first hand account, but let’s skip through the many attempts on his life for airing his views in the National Assembly, openly.

 

But, one evening, the FSF (Federal Security Force, ZAB’s personal Gestapo) marksmen won. As luch would have it, that day Ahmed wasn’t feeling well and his father, Nawab Mohammed Ahmed, had taken the driver’s seat. He was killed on the spot.

 

Ahmed lodged an FIR the same very hour naming Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and others as the responsible party. No one could ever legally implicate ZAB, but sometimes just a tiny angry scribble on a file requiring someone to be actually “liquidated” surfaces.

 

Where was her trial? 

In Pakistan, Spain + Switzerland.

The Swiss trial was for money laundering lodged by the Swiss prosecutors, I doubt if they had any political motivations?

 

It really doesn't matter about truth or fiction.  Every individual, political or not, has the basic right to have the charges read against them in a court and to have those charges answered. 

Charges were read. If these were some baseless charges, she won’t have to make a deal with any devil, least of all with the worst military dictator the country has ever had? Just for cleaning her slate.

 

This never happened.  So, going from the Western mindset, you are innocent until proven guilty.

I am a perpetual student, please, educate me if know anything that I might have missed.

 

I wonder if any Pakistan would stand up and tell us about the Surrey Palace that the both have been denying any knowledge off till it was sold off and proceeds paid in to the government of Pakistan account?

He could have been from a number of sources.

Could have been from Al-Zulfikar – her brothers exceptionally effective organisation.

“Within her party, she declared herself the lifetime president of the PPP and refused to let her brother Murtaza challenge her. When he persisted in doing so, he ended up shot dead in highly suspicious circumstances outside the family home. Murtaza's wife Ghinwa and his daughter Fatima, as well as Benazir's mother, all firmly believed that Benazir gave the order to have him killed.

 

I am sure, her mother is not politically motivated?


She died doing what she believed in.

I agree totally, she believed that only she and her family hold the right to rule Pakistan and she did die for it leaving a will and bequeathing a national political party to her son!


She was the real threat for change to occur.

Yes, I agree, she was the only prospect for a change of American colours in Pakistan. Other than that, what would anyone give a nation who won’t even give a party that was collectively founded and developed by some very talented people???

 

You have got her painting that has been air brushed by the US media for their own agenda.

 

Poor BB was killed for romancing the State Department and for making some treasonable promises to the Pentagon. It's a strange world, specially since 3rd November, just place a Made in America tag on anyone and his own neighbours will kill him.

 

We have had upto here with America and their War on Terror circus.



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 12:32am

Paa Jee, please! Look at this one. She came back, realised that she had been the idiot that she was in taking that hot potatoe deal. Tried to hand it back to the Amrekanos.

The Amrekanos work by the traditional Costa Nostra Mafiosi Faren Pal icy manualsCan you also not hear? "Hell, if she ain't our gal, any longer, just bin the bastard, bump her off man" 

‘Benazir distanced herself from deal’

Dawn - front Page

WASHINGTON, Dec 31: Before her death, former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto had distanced herself from a US-brokered power-sharing deal between her and President Pervez Musharraf, The Washington Post reported on Monday.

According to veteran Post journalist Robert D. Novak, Ms Bhutto had sent a written complaint to a senior State Department official saying that her camp no longer viewed the backstage US move as a good-faith effort towards democracy.

Instead, it was seen as an attempt to preserve the politically endangered Mr Musharraf as US President George W. Bush’s man in Islamabad, she wrote.

Since her return to Pakistan on Oct 18, Ms Bhutto sent several urgent pleas to the State Department, seeking US assistance for better protection.

The US reaction was that she was worried over nothing, expressing assurance that President Musharraf would not let anything happen to her.

Distraught by the lack of US interests in her protection, Ms Bhutto began to distance herself from the US-backed power-sharing arrangement, the Post said.

The US decision to arrange a Bhutto-Musharraf alliance was based on Pakistan’s strategic importance as a sanctuary for Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters.

“Bush was in a quandary. Bhutto was much tougher than Musharraf on Islamist extremists, but Bush had invested heavily in the general,” the Post observed.

Ms Bhutto was further disillusioned when President Musharraf imposed a state of emergency on Nov 3, but US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned and urged her to go along with that process in return for concessions from Mr Musharraf.

“Bhutto agreed, but she got nothing in return,” the Post noted.

The report said that the unsuccessful Oct. 18 attempt on Ms Bhutto’s life followed Islamabad’s rejection of her requested security protection when she returned from eight years in exile. The Pakistani government vetoed FBI assistance in investigating the attack.

On Oct 26, Ms Bhutto sent an email to Mark Siegel, her friend and Washington spokesman, to be made public only in the event of her death.

“I would hold Musharraf responsible,” Ms Bhutto said in the message. “I have been made to feel insecure by his minions.”

In early December, a former Pakistani government official supporting Ms Bhutto visited a senior US government official to renew her security requests.

“He got a brush off, a mindset reflected Dec 6 at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing,” the report said.Richard Boucher, assistant secretary of state for South and Central Asian affairs, was asked to respond to fears by non-partisan American observers of a rigged election.

His reply: “I do think they can have a good election. They can have a credible election. They can have a transparent and a fair election. It’s not going to be a perfect election.” (we 'ave planned it to be like that!) I own up to the Italics.

“Boucher’s words echoed through corridors of power in Islamabad,” the Post noted.

“Neither her shooting on Thursday nor the attempt on her life Oct 18 bore the trademarks of Al Qaeda,” the report said, urging the US administration to send an FBI to probe the murder. (Yeah, for wiping out any traces or our finger prints left on the scene!)



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 12:36am

That poor country needs a Chavez or some Avo Morales to put the amercans where they belong, in some circus tent, with their action packed El War on Terror show.

Sorry, is it spelt waar? in that part of the world.



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 1:57am
Pakistan definitely does not need a Chavez...and that's not coming from a Pro-American, Flag Flying Patriotism.  Chavez is just another corrupt leader who's making a name for himself and trying to rile things up by appearing to fight the Great American enemy.

With the oil discoveries in Brazil, he's becoming less and less important and more and more just another dictator.

The Pakistani people need a real reformation movement.  They have had corruption and dictatorship almost my entire life...if you count ZAB, all my life.

I often wonder in places where SO many live under such hardship how these governments survive.  As someone who is very close to my Eastern European roots, I see the lessons of the rise of the Soviet Union and wonder how these have not been learned by the masses, both the successes and deep failures of the Revolution. 

Like it or not, Benazir represented democracy in action.  A Populist vote to determine the direction of the Government.  A vote for her was a vote that the people wanted to move in that direction.  People had read the news reports with her corruption charges, the allegations of her husband's briberies and the allegations she had her brother killed.  Yet, so many still supported her?  Why?

Everyone here seems to discount basic human intelligence.  Why would someone want to support/vote for a woman with such a shady past?  What was she offering that the other candidates do not?

My mother calls every 4 years a choice of the lesser evil in American politics and I agree.  My husband had a bumper sticker in our home office that said Chthulu 2004, Why Vote for a Lesser Evil?  (Lovecraft reference for none sci-fi/horror fans)

All the candidates for the US President stink (save Ron Paul, and he won't be able to do anything if elected because of partisanship) and we as voters must choose a President from their ranks.  No one is fooled into thinking anyone will be perfect.  We just must chose what direction we want to go in. 

Pakistan faces similar issues.  Do they want to move away from dictatorship?  Would they rather stay as is?  Do they want to join the "Western" economies?  Would they rather stay out of international politics?

For most Pakistanis, its not this complicated.  Its about their paychecks, the roof over their head and the food on the table.  If the people in power are not giving them what they need, they will look elsewhere.  Who do they have to chose from now?  Certainly not anyone that's really going to do it. 

I don't think putting a 19 year old in charge was smart.  It just painted a big target on her son's back.  He should be worrying about University right now, not some family legacy.  I was sorry to see that choice was made.

In the end though, who's really to blame for the situation in Pakistan.  The British?  Corrupt Pakistani Politicians?  The tolerance of the People. 

This would be very simple if it were not for AQ Khan's work.  If not for the risk of a nuke getting into the wrong hands, I would say populist revolution would move things in the right direction.  But, the size of certain groups would almost ensure long periods of bloodshed or just another dictator in the mix.

So, who is it that can make any change?  Nawaz Sharif?  Mushareff?  Bhutto's husband (definitely not). 

Pakistan needs a Peter the Great...someone to drag them kicking and screaming out of the status quo, but someone strong enough to hold the position long enough for the changes to be made.  I just don't see anyone who remotely fits the bill.




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Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 2:13am
Wonderfull Angela, so Chavez is just another dictator (accidentally voted
in?) yet in the end, Pakistan needs a dictator. Huh?

You are an intelligent woman, Angela, please stop forming your opinions
on what the MSM feeds you. Whisper's post clearly itemised the misdeeds
of Ms. Bhutto's father, and the entire country knows her husband as a
criminal. There's no grey line about criminal conduct in these countries,
unlike Washington, where the criminals hide behind smoke screens.

You seem so confident in your judgement of a country and its people,
and yet you have never been there. Pakistan needs a real grass roots
social movement, not more autocrats (Bhutto legacy), more army generals
or foreign educated pseudo Muslims. It needs someone to stand up for
what the people need (Benazir could not even speak their languages, let
alone understand their needs, have you read the William Dalrymple article
posted a couple pages pack?) just like Evo Morales, and yes, your reviled
Chávez (he's not perfect either, but wasn't that your defense of corrupt
Bhutto...?) and Ecuador's rafael Correa. People who stand up to the
US/IMF bully and seek the advancement of their country, on THEIR OWN
terms.


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 3:04am

I was not surprised to hear that Benazir wanted her son to take her place should she die. Nepotism immediately sprung to my mind. This was something she thought too when she was in office.



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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 3:37am
Well, I think you misunderstand what I mean by Peter the Great.  He was a hereditary monarch vs a dictator.  The point was he was Educated in a time where the vast majority of Russians were not.  They were stuck in customs and superstitions and falling behind the rest of the world.  Peter the Great learned engineering in Prussia.  He studied the naval fleets of the other powers and why his own people were stuck in the mud. 

He got rid of the corrupt boyar class.  He brought a naval force to Russia, established a trading port, encouraged learning.  He died incidently because he waded into ice cold waters to save a man's life. 

I don't see Chavez catching pnuemonia anytime soon to save a man's life.  Nor do I see him making any great reforms.  You say elected, but did you see the protests and votes that recently happened there?  Opposition party leaders being shot at or imprisoned?

I form my opinions based on history, you let your hatred of one country bias your entire view of things.  So what that Bhutto had a western education?  Why is that bad?  She went to Harvard and Cambridge (or was is Oxford?), both colleges I would have given a limb to attend, but I was too poor and/or too st**id.  I had to settle for Dickinson College...where I studied...International Relations and Eastern European Studies.  I also took classes in Eastern Religion, Eastern Philosophy, Indian History and Culture and even a class about Aliens...ooooohhh..

I'm not some neo-con toady who believes the western media.  Nor do I even remotely like my countries policies towards the rest of the world.  I want to return to the isolationist doctrines of pre-WWI.  The founding father's warned to stay out of international politics.

You act as if a woman who had the fortune to get the best of educations should somehow be punished for it.  pseudo-Muslim?  So, I'm to take it the man who killed her and blew himself up is to be considered a real muslim?  How about Ahmadinejad?  Is he to be considered a real muslim?  What makes a real muslim?  I thought it was belief in one God and his Prophet.  I didn't know that you had to follow other criteria to be considered a real Muslim.  I'll remember to tell my dear friend who's a non-hijabi western educated white woman she's not a real muslim.

You think you're just so smart...I'm American, so I must be some dumb bimbo who watches Fox Noise.  I think Whisper specifically said that
Better we start with ZAB, her father, a man who I came to know, personally, because of a range of our mutual friends and grew to admire some positive aspects of his person.

Yet, I still listed him in the dictatorships that have ruled Pakistan since my birth.  Now, can a indecisive person hold power in Pakistan?  Answer me that.  If you are not prepared to desperately hold onto power in that country, are you even remotely able to.  No...because there is always another Mushareff waiting in the wings.

The need a strong leader...strong does not mean dictator, but it does mean that the person has to be willing to fight and defend to keep their positions.  If an entire governmental system is corrupt, don't you  have to know how to play the game. 

Example.  Gorbachev, he had to play the games at home to get the breakthroughs.  Study the man and you will see both a Soviet dictator and a reformer.  But, he was into a position where he had to fight from within.  Chavez got in and is trying to force socialism based on the recently forgotten mistaken idea that socialism helps the poor.  Gorbachev was not a good man to everyone, yet without his leadership, the USSR might still be there. 

Peter the Great entered one system and tried to bring about positive changes.  Who knows what more he could have accomplished if he lived?  Gorbachev entered a system and saw it through to the Coup to stop his changes.  Yeltsin took over and tried to keep Russia headed in that direction.  When he was too sick to keep holding power... the KGB got control again and look where Russia is...back to where it was in the late 80's. 

Why did the reforms in Russia fail?  The leadership weakened.  In this world of corruption, you must have a particularly crafty and strong leader to get anything done.  They have to be able to play the game. 
Sasha is a jewel of a man.  Full of integrity, intelligence and drive.  But, honestly...how long would a man like him stay in power in Pakistan?

You're right, I've never been there.  There's a reporter I like who's Pakistani... Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy.  Have you heard of her?  She really gives a wonderful view of the prospects of educated Pakistani women.  She also gives her concerns on what she sees happening in her own country.  I've met some wonderful men and women who are Pakistani, married to Pakistanis or lived there for a short time. I grew to really respect the people of Pakistan and think they got the short end of the stick from the Brits.  Of course, recently, I've also been insulted numerous times by Pakistani men.  So, its a bit of a double edged sword.  I would LOVE to visit Pakistan.  I don't think I would enjoy it though.  If they would treat me half as bad as some of those I met have...I probably would go away with a bad view on a culture I thought prided itself on its hospitality. 

Historically, Culturally, Religiously, you cannot separate Pakistan from the Western/Middle Eastern Influences that have shaped it.  From the Alexander the Great, the Persian Kings, Hindu Kings, Mugals, British...Pakistan hasn't really had time to be on its own.  So you can't really judge anyone as being not this or not that.  They simply are.

I liked Benazir.  Nothing you say will change that.  Imagine yourself a 17 year old girl who's only introduction to Islam was a rude Southeast Asian man at the National Mosque and a book called Princess.  Then see a predominantly Muslim country elect a WOMAN as Prime Minister.  Perhaps there is more reasons for me to look past her failings than there are for me to dwell on them.  The same reason I still feel deeply about how good and wonderful Princess Diana was compared with the naughty behavior and scandals that followed her to her death.

I feel you are just too anti-Western despite your being Dutch for you to have an objective look at anything I say.  So with that, Peace


-------------


Posted By: Walid
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 4:57am

Why all these democratic parties when their flag bearers dies his/her immediate family members take the flag. That should be real family democratic process. 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 5:15am

Why all these democratic parties when their flag bearers dies his/her immediate family members take the flag. That should be real family democratic process. 

Democracy is a mere fig leaf for exceptionally naked regal aspirations, my brother.



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 6:12am

Last fall, a friend from Pakistan and I were on chat. He sent me a link to a Bhutto speech. She was giving her speech in English. And as he pointed out, the people do not speak English, how are they to know what she is saying? Ad he felt the speech was for the US govt. Not the people of Pakistan.  Andeducation of the masses did not improve under her rule before.

People use this buzz word "democracy."  Yes  you can vote, but your dirt-poor, illiterate etc. The future of your children looks bleak. All of this "anti-terrorist" rhetoric and resources is a diversion from the real issues facing people.

Angela, on one level, I too can appreciate that she was a strong woman. On the other hand, I cannot but hope for more because she was a woman. I don't know if that makes sense?

I don't think I would enjoy it though.  If they would treat me half as bad as some of those I met have...I probably would go away with a bad view on a culture I thought prided itself on its hospitality. 

Actually you would probably be treated better there then 95% of places in the world. Having traveled alot, and knowing many travelers, Pakistanis are some of the most hospitable people on this planet.

Having spent months there on two visits, ironically the only place I felt unwelcome, and this is traveling all over, was in  a rich doctor's house. He had been educated in the west, lived in a huge house and had a Sweedish wife. Everywhere else was great.



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 7:01am
That really doesn't surprise me Hayfa.  My cousin went to India for a year.  She was in the far north.  Initially they put her with a doctor and his family.  She was miserable.  They were offended because she insisted on making her own bed and meals instead of having the servants do it.  She asked for a transfer and was put in the modest home of a local businessman.  She loved the rest of her trip.  They treated her like family and she really got to spend time getting to know the local customs.

I think I missed out by staying in a Dormitory in Moscow, but I didn't get a choice.


-------------


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 10:18am
Angela, I assume most of your post was aimed at me ... I'm surprised that
you seem to find it necessary to give us a lecture on history, and details
of your formal education to justify your support of Benazir Bhutto.

Your remarks about seeing the protests against Chávez in Venezuela is
what I meant about forming your opinions from what you’ve seen on TV.
TV in America will only show you the protests against him. I’m sure you
didn’t know about the CIA covert operation to skew the recent vote on
constitutional reforms either. Google ‘Operacion Tenazas’. They used
students as one tactic to form demos against Chávez. He lost this recent
vote by 1% of the counts. And he quite gracefully (I admit, that’s hard for
him) conceded defeat, he didn’t roll out the tanks. Hardly an
overwhelming victory for the right wing opposition wouldn’t you say? If
you are interested in expanding your current perspective, there are plenty
of opportunities on the web to investigate whether your dislike of Chávez
is based on what you’ve been told by the US msm, or whether he is
something more than what you thought. It’s up to you.

You say you form your opinions based on history. Is it possible do you
think, that history is usually written by the victors and their approved
historians? I prefer to question the version of history served up to me,
which always creates heroes out of the those who ‘fit the bill’. Currently
President Putin enjoys an overwhelming 80% approval rating from his
countrymen. But in the English speaking world he is reviled as a cruel and
mysoginistic semi-dictator, controlling the news and a covert war on
journalism, ordering the spectacular assassination of ex-spies and
indiscriminately killing terrorists along with their hostages. Whose version
of this history will be the one you accept: the Putin supporter living in
Moscow, or the CNN reporter lamenting Putin’s Black-belt swagger?

You say: “You act as if a woman who had the fortune to get the best of
educations should somehow be punished for it. pseudo-Muslim?” I was
referring to the fact that Benazir’s foreign education meant she was in
effect an outsider within her own nation. Hardly the best credentials to
base your politics on, particularly in an area of the world where colonial
rule has left a decidedly bitter after taste. And pseudo Muslim refers to
the fact that most, if not all, Pakistanis in power and office are alcohol
drinkers, yet quite happy to impose restrictions of all kinds on their
‘subjects’. The rest of your deductions from my post are purely the result
of your emotionally overheated reaction.

Quote: “I feel you are just too anti-Western despite your being Dutch for
you to have an objective look at anything I say.” I’m intrigued Angela,
where did you get the impression I am Dutch? And as for being unnable
to view anything you say objectively, well, I could say the same thing
back …. I appologise if I appeared patronising.



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 1:00pm

The Pakistani people need a real reformation movement. 

Absolutely and they have been fighting for it for a long time. It’s now in the offing.


Like it or not, Benazir represented democracy in action.

She loved democracy, as long as it landed her in the Prime Minister’s house.

 

A Populist vote to determine the direction of the Government.

The Royal Family determined the direction of the Government exactly like the direction now of the party!

 

. . . allegations of her husband's briberies and the allegations she had her brother killed.

Why would her mother hold her responsible for her brother’s killing? Or, the Swiss Prosecutor register a money laundering case against “them”?

 

Yet, so many still supported her?  Why?

Possibly for the same reason as so many supported Adolph?

Initially, because she was a slain man’s daughter. How many would have supported her, this time, remains untested. The Made in America label had lost a sizeable chunk of her vote bank

Why would someone want to support/vote for a woman with such a shady past?  What was she offering that the other candidates do not?

Solely for her father’s name!


Do they want to move away from dictatorship? 

They have always been struggling against it

Would they rather stay as is?

Nope 

Do they want to join the "Western" economies?

A majority seems to find it a bit out of their taste

Would they rather stay out of international politics?

The pobres are nowhere in International politics, it’s just that the international politics or to be more precise, the International killing has taken over their lives.

 

Right now the Pakistanis have just one desire, they don’t want to be killed in the name of this War on Terror circus, with their man as its kingpin! They have had it up to here with the US running their country for her own agenda.

For most Pakistanis, its not this complicated.  Its about their paychecks, the roof over their heads the food on the table. If the people in power are not giving them what they need, they will look elsewhere.

There priorities are a bit different.

They believe that the bread bit doesn’t lie with any man, but with the Raziq (Bread Giver). They want their government to be free from any involvement with the killers of Iraqi and Afghan people.

 

I don't think putting a 19 year old in charge was smart.  It just painted a big target on her son's back.  He should be worrying about University right now, not some family legacy.  I was sorry to see that choice was made.

If you knew BB or her actual agenda, you won’t have expected anything else.

In the end though, who's really to blame for the situation in Pakistan.  The British?  Corrupt Pakistani Politicians?  The tolerance of the People. 

All of them + the US

This would be very simple if it were not for AQ Khan's work.  If not for the risk of a nuke getting into the wrong hands, I would say populist revolution would move things in the right direction. 

It’s just no more than American scare mongering – aimed at the home market, to justify their obsession with Musharref.

 

But, the size of certain groups would almost ensure long periods of bloodshed or just another dictator in the mix.

None of that sort at all. The US plan has misfired. People are not as naïve as they are painted by the media. All of this will settle down if elections are not rigged and if Musharref is kicked out. He is the problem.

So, who is it that can make any change?

The country has some of the finest talented men and women. Things are moving faster than the western press would wish their world to know.


Well, I think you misunderstand what I mean by Peter the Great. 

Pakistan has Aitazaz the Great + a country full of Bar Associations.

 

So what that Bhutto had a western education? 

That’s the one and only thing that seems to appeal to the west and almost all the time she is waltzing to the western gallery. It just stinks and had lost a good chunk of her vote bank. Her loss might recover some of it.

 

Why is that bad?

That’s not bad in itself, her arrogance about it is.  

 

She went to Harvard and Cambridge (or was is Oxford?), both colleges I would have given a limb to attend, but I was too poor and/or too st**id. 

Well, we should let good things just rest. You wouldn’t have to give anything at all had your father been, say, the President even of Tuvalu Islands!

You would have been sitting next to her.

 

I'm not some neo-con toady who believes the western media.  Nor do I even remotely like my countries policies towards the rest of the world.  I want to return to the isolationist doctrines of pre-WWI.  The founding father's warned to stay out of international politics.

Angela, I recognise and respect your calibre and your mind.

 

Now, can a indecisive person hold power in Pakistan?  Answer me that.

Holding on the power, by all means, is a legacy of the country’s imperial past.

And, only the weak and the insecure hold power via abuse of the state apparatus.

 

I would rather skip ZAB,s sad childhood story, but I would just say that I have yet to come across a more insecure and psychologically disturbed man than him, anywhere.

 

People are people, they do respond to gentleness in a society that reveres her saints more than her kings. This lesson doesn’t mix with the leaders who have been planted on the unfortunate people of that country – always with some imperial design!

 

If you are not prepared to desperately hold onto power in that country, are you even remotely able to.

It’s a fallacy, promoted by the west, for justifying their puppets’ abuses.

The situation is otherwise.

 

No...because there is always another Mushareff waiting in the wings.

The other Musharefs get a chance only with the incumbents’ abuse of power.

The need a strong leader...strong does not mean dictator, but it does mean that the person has to be willing to fight and defend to keep their positions.

Yes, in a Costa Nostra family running a protection racket, leaders focus on winning hearts and minds of people through positive projects.

 

If an entire governmental system is corrupt, don't you have to know how to play the game. 

Weak, insecure and the incompetent imposed leaders corrupt the system, they have to make all the hay before their masters find their replacements.

Sasha is a jewel of a man.  Full of integrity, intelligence and drive.  But, honestly...how long would a man like him stay in power in Pakistan?

At least, for 107 days and then the Masters will find out that he is working for the people and he will be liquidated!


I would LOVE to visit Pakistan.  I don't think I would enjoy it though.  If they would treat me half as bad as some of those I met have...I probably would go away with a bad view on a culture I thought prided itself on its hospitality. 

Unfortunately the ones in the US don’t set the best example. They have left their country for greed and a horde of other plastic and out of taste reasons. The average Pakistani is one of the most beautiful persons I have ever met. He lives in his village and may not be able to read or write.

 

You will enjoy it more than you might think.

And, it would be an honour to have you as our (the Khaliqia Community’s and also mine) guest for as long as you wish to stay there.

 

I liked Benazir. 

I agree, she was very lucky in that aspect, anyone who didn’t know here, just loved her.

 

Then see a predominantly Muslim country elect a WOMAN as Prime Minister.

Does some credit also go to the people, of that Islamic country, for elected her as their first woman Prime Minister?

 

The same reason I still feel deeply about how good and wonderful Princess Diana was compared with the naughty behavior and scandals that followed her to her death.

It is a strange coincidence that I knew both the women you have mentioned, closely. Diana was the exact opposite of BB, the more you knew her the more you admired and respected her.



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 1:55am
Sasha,

You never cease to inspire jealousy in me.  I would have loved to have met Diana.  Her AIDS work inspired so many. 

Perhaps Bhutto wasn't perfect...but in the end, it was a savage and barbaric act.  I still don't understand any justification for killing 134 people when she showed up and then another 20 after they'd already shot her in the head.  There is just a level of brutal savagery that these people use to affect politics that's inexcusable.  Instead of blowing up the opposition, perhaps they should form their own parties and do it the right way. Two wrongs do not make a right....however, three lefts do.

Duende,

How do you know Benazir was an alcohol drinker?  Curious.

I thought you were Dutch because you appear with the Cartoon scandal, but that was Danish now that I think about it.  LOL What's it matter, European is European.


And for Putin, again...I don't take my opinions from Western Media.  I speak Russian, I lived there.  My family is from what is now the Ukraine.  Putin is old guard KGB, don't trust Russian polls.  They are as tainted as American polls. 

Here's a little bit of information for you.  Dissentant leaders in Russia are being either murdered or locked up in Psychiatric Facilities.  Did you know that?  A recent incident where an opposition leader to Putin's successor was prevented from registering for the elections because he could not rent office space to fill the requirements for his party meetings.  I did a search for it so you can read about it, I learned from a friend.

http://www.debianhelp.org/node/9505 - http://www.debianhelp.org/node/9505

Putin may have an 80% approval rating in Moscow which was being taken over by the Mafia in 1997 when I was there.  Moscow is a city of excess and is about as much a representation of the average Russian as living in Beverly Hills is a representation of being American or living in Dubai being the average Arab Muslim.

But, I guarantee you he's not got a 80% approval rating in reality.  Of course, you point out Bhutto's connection with her brother's death, so I point out a man by the name of Alexander Litvinenko.  Handsome man...well until the end that is.  There was Anna Politkovskaya.  Gorbachev isn't really allowed to go anywhere, he's virtually under house arrest, but get anyone to admit to that. 

Moscovites are loving it, fancy cars, excesses... but ask the poor slops living in Vladivostok about their River.  Go out to the countryside and see what's going on there.  Go to Chechnya see how they feel about Putin.  Putin is old guard.  I knew he was going to do this stuff when he took over for Boris Yeltsin.  I told my husband that his appointment was the end of Russian Democracy.  Mat said I was being paranoid, it would never get that bad again.  Heh....whatever.




 




-------------


Posted By: Sawtul Khilafah
Date Posted: 03 January 2008 at 6:27pm
Whisper, did you know that the Iranian TV praised Binazir Bhutto?


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 2:40am
Angela, I am struck by the difference in ‘tone’ of your attitude towards
me, and your attitude towards Sasha. Towards Sasha you have a tone of
deference, you speak of being jealous and of how wonderful he is.
Towards me, you say: “You think you're just so smart.”

I can’t help but notice the acceptance Whisper (a man) enjoys from you
and the off-hand annoyance I (a woman) inspire in you. It has something
to do with the long tradition within patriarchal societies, of accepting that
a man can, and we're trained to accept-most likely does-have a superior
intellect, and the peculiar self-defeating attitude of feminists: that
implies if it’s a woman, it can’t be smarter than you, and if she is, she
must be a bitch.

My goodness, feminism/society has further to go than I imagined!

By the way, I did not say Benazir drank alcohol.


“I thought you were Dutch because you appear with the Cartoon scandal,
but that was Danish now that I think about it.”

-My ‘appearance’ here was two months prior to the cartoon scandal, in
which I don’t even recall making a post, but if it’s important we can both
check …. My ‘location’ here is and always has been Spain. Which is not
even close to Denmark or Holland, which makes your casual assumption
of my nationality even stranger. And so I see you could give a damn
whether the cartoon scandal arose in Holland, Italy, France, or the Tuvalu
Isles.

“LOL What's it matter, European is European.”

Your offhand attitude towards “europeans” which tells me you think all
europeans are the same, is patronising in the extreme. You often talk
about your ex-Soviet ‘origins’, about your Ukrainian ‘roots’ and so I hope
you can see how insulting it can be, to not give a damn about a person’s
origins and think it normal to confuse their nationality with 28 others. I
don’t like to identify myself with any given ‘nationality’, I think you’d
agree there are far more complex and deeper elements which identify a
person, regardless of where they’re born, where they grow up or where
they live. But I have a suspicion you would be mortally upset if someone
where to say: “Bhutto? Paki, Indian, Bangladeshi? ..bah! They’re all the
same.”

“Here's a little bit of information for you.”- Thank you. Litvinenko wrote a
book exposing the possible Kremlin involvment with the apartment
bombings blamed on Chechen ‘terrorists’. In other words, he had inside
information alleging the Kremlin had a hand in the creation of the
Chechen problem. Exactly like the information which alleges the CIA/UK
formed the early Al-Qaeda. There were many motives for his
assassination, and the spectacular nature of it, was a clear warning to all
who seek the truth. He reverted to Islam in his last hours, I’m sure from
personal conviction, but many also took this to be a signal of deference
towards the Chechen’s whom he had befriended, and an act of final
defiance of those who sought to control him- ultimately Putin, his ex-
boss. Not his brother.

Yes, I also know Russian journalists are more at risk within Russia than
journalists who are ‘embedded’ with troops in Iraq.

I suppose, since you seem to make quick assessments, you now have me
boxed as a Putin supporter. Whatever –as you would say.




Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 2:43am
Sawtul- : what nation's press did NOT praise her?

Or are we to join your bandwagon berating and bashing Iran because of this?


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 12:06pm

You never cease to inspire jealousy in me.  I would have loved to have met Diana.  Her AIDS work inspired so many. 
Not at all my fault, she just wanted to marry my Nephew-in-Chief (my sister's son) and visited us even at or Lahore residence. You must have heard of the Cardiac surgeon, Hasnaat Khan?

How do you know Benazir was an alcohol drinker?  Curious.
She didn't have much of a thirst, really.

We never met after her cousin's November 1985 party. She she was dating good old Derek (half Jamaican-half Irish not at all known TV actor). Like her brother, Shahnawaz, she preferred the "other" stuff.

Contrary to their claims, for mere political mileage out of his death, Shahnawaz was bent upon killing himself, with frequent overdosing.

But that's niether here nor there. The fact remains plain, honest, simple: IF SHE WEREN'T the single most dangerous person for los pobre 172 million Pakistanos the US won't have wished to plant her on them!

In my wake of over 40 years of global event watching, not just vis the newsmedia, but far more at the more active in depth level, I have yet to see ONE right person the US ever pushed on to the Muslim world.

In fact, they have mutilated, killed, finished off - not just in the physical sense alone - anyone ever they found to be positive. I have come to believe that it's Anglo-American agenda, to sow discontent, public unrest and civil wars in the Islamic countries. Now, it's Pakistan's turn.

Could anyone show me just one Muslim country that the US have touched in the past half century and it hasn't curdled into extremism or not blown in their faces?

Just one?



-------------
Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: Sawtul Khilafah
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 12:52pm

Originally posted by Duende

Sawtul- : what nation's press did NOT praise her?

Or are we to join your bandwagon berating and bashing Iran because of this?

 

I dont know I didnt watch the TV of all countries in the world and Im pretty sure you didnt either.

Whether or not other nations praised her, Iran claims to be "Islamic" and "anti-Zionist" and "anti-USA" and call USA "the great satan" and falsely accuse many many Muslims of being "agents of America".

But when it came to this woman who was obviously an agent, they praise her... hmmmm

Also interesting to note that this Real American agent (Bhutto) came from a Shia family and despite some claims that she had "converted" and become Sunni, she never practiced Sunni Islam and in fact there are pictures of her wearing a dress on which it says "Ya Ali" (something that Shia say and Sunnis dont).



Posted By: hat2010
Date Posted: 06 January 2008 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by Sawtul Khilafah

Originally posted by Duende

Sawtul- : what nation's
press did NOT praise her? Or are we to join your bandwagon berating
and bashing Iran because of this?


 


I dont know I didnt watch the TV of all countries in the world and Im
pretty sure you didnt either.



Blam. Exactly, Duende. Come on. For example, the anti-
shia public-access cable show, "Sawtul's World" where two slacker
reporters (Sawtul and Crasss) lambasted Bhutto, singing with a Persian
disco hit, "Benzi's Gotta a Big ol Bhut"



Whether or not other nations praised her, Iran claims to be "Islamic"
and "anti-Zionist" and "anti-USA" and call USA "the great satan" and
falsely accuse many many Muslims of being "agents of America".


But when it came to this woman who was obviously an agent, they
praise her... hmmmm



Thank God we can get back to the real issues. In a typical
pro-Iranian black-ops move, Bhutto's assassination was trying to cover
up Iran's cover up of it's allegiance to her, so as to quietly reclaim the
Sawtul given right to claim oneself "Islamic"


Also interesting to note that this Real American agent (Bhutto) came
from a Shia family and despite some claims that she had "converted" and
become Sunni, she never practiced Sunni Islam and in fact there are
pictures of her wearing a dress on which it says "Ya Ali" (something that
Shia say and Sunnis dont).*
[It is interesting...and bowel moving - and for the few
dogs who love
playing with your homemade anti-shia, anti-iran chew-toys, I'm sure
they have filled their rubber pants in approval.





Good work, Detective Sawtul! Team up with Crasss to crack this
century's biggest upcoming case - that Shia spelled backward is STD.

*I say "Ya Ali" when I telephone my pal, Ali.

-------------


Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 12:39am
Jamal:




Posted By: Duende
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 3:22am
www.theimpudentobserver.com has this view of Friday's press meeting.
Then a more recent report of Mush accepting the latest version of events.
(There's lots of typos, the original is titled 'Muharraf' if you want to search
there.)

Poor Mush, first, 'inneficiency' makes a clean up of the crime scene
destroy vital forensic evidence. Second: invite Scotland Yard, no less, to
investigate said crime scene. Thirdly: despite extensive evidence
destruction, due to zealous inefficiency, re-create the suspect's features
from .. well, from what exactly?

I think he needs a new scriptwriter. Oh, but they're still on strike in
Hollywood, no? that explains it.

Musharraf In The Reporter’s Den-Questions And Answers
January 4th, 2008 by Fred Stopsky

Pakistan President Musharraf met a hostile group of international
reporters who refused to back away from posing tough questions. The
first question asked apparently infuriated the president. He was aksed
how he could lead the nation when “many people in the country believe
you have blood on your hands over Benazir Bhutto’s death.” Musharraf’s
face went cold and he responded: “I consider the question below my
dignity to answer. However, I would like to answer it.” He went on to point
out he was raised by a cultured family tht did not believe in killing
people. But, the questions kept on coming:
Would he bow to mounting public opinion and resign?
Was he in fear of his life given the levels of terrorist violence?
What about the charges of vote rigging before the election?

Musharraf defended his actions and made clear he was not afraid of being
killed since he knew how to take car of himself. He slipped for a moment
when complaining he had warned Bhutto about possible violence and even
provided her with an armored car. Reporters pointed out she bought the
car. He insisted her death was caused by being blown against the sun
roof of the car and agreed there was need for further investigation. That
is why he has summoned Scotland Yard. He did blame “inefficiency” at
the crime scene of those in charge.

It is interesting that Musharraf’s Pakistan Muslim League-Quaid’s leader,
Chuadhry Shujaat Hussain told reporters that it was important for the
INter-Services Intelligence(ISI) to monitor actions of opposition political
parties. “It keeps a watch on political parties and reports their anti-
government and anti-state activities.” Perhaps, someone should inform
Musharraf that in a democracy the opposition party is expected to
oppose the state.

Changing Stories Of Bhutto Death
January 7th, 2008 by Fred Stopsky

Pakistan security officials investigating the death of Benazir Bhutto have
concluded she was killed by a single assassin who had a gun and a bomb.
They believe he fired three shots and then blew himself up in order to kill
the PPP leader. Plastic surgeon have reconstructed the face of the bomber
and it is being circulated throughout the nation. A police officer has now
stated he saw the man raise his arm, but got there to late to prevent the
explosion. President Musharraf has now admitted his agreement with the
new interpretation of the death.

The United States still insists that Musharraf must be supported and the
best way to achieve that purpose is by encouraging an alliance between
the Bhutto’s Pakistan Peoples Party and Musharraf. However, all
indications are that PPP leaders are leaning toward an alliance with former
Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. IN the topsy turvy world of Pakistan politics
there is little hope America’s coalition will emerge. We are left with a
Musharraf standing alone and not allied with the opposition.


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 5:16am
He was aksed how he could lead the nation when “many people in the country believe
you have blood on your hands over Benazir Bhutto’s death.” Musharraf’s
face went cold and he responded: “I consider the question below my
dignity to answer. However, I would like to answer it.” He went on to point
out he was raised by a cultured family tht did not believe in killing
people.


did not believe in killing people? then who ordered the military to shoot and kill protesters after Bhutto's death ?


Anway, yes it is awlful about Bhutto's death, I don't think she was killed because she was a woman (if it did then it was little, I am with Duende that it wasn't she was leader twice before so it cannot be because of her gender) but because she was planning to make big changes (whether they were for the better or worse we won't know now) many wanted the changes, just as many people didn't and probably saw it as a threat. From what i can gather Bhutto was intent on major changes. 


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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 9:38pm

Govt to press Swiss case against Zardari

Our monitoring desk
PAKISTAN will pursue Asif Ali Zardari, widower of slain Benazir Bhutto, for 60 million Swiss francs ($54 million) it says the couple hid illegally in Switzerland, reports Khaleej Times, quoting a foreign news agency.
, its lawyer said on Tuesday. 
A hearing is expected to be held in Geneva in late January in the long-running money-laundering case, begun in 1997 against Benazir and Zardari, said Jacques Python, Pakistan government’s lawyer in Geneva on Tuesday.
“We remain a civil party in the (criminal) procedure against Asic Zardari,” Python told the news agency. “To our knowledge, 60 million Swiss francs remain frozen in connection with the case.’
The amount is four times the $13 million previously referred to as being blocked in connection with alleged kickbacks from Swiss cargo inspection companies. Geneva judicial officials were not available to comment.
“She (Bhutto) appears little in the bank documents. On the other hand, Zardari’s name appears as the beneficial owner of most of the accounts that are frozen,” Python said.
“The time has come to look at the technical issues so that the frozen funds can be returned to Pakistan.”

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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 8:26am

Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : To understand the science of racial politics i asked Mrs King
She said SUNNAH is to follow the male Prophets
Because the library of the divine revelation doesn't have any feminine wing
Therefore Mrs Bhutto is latest casualty of war of ancient Jung E Jamal
Because the deeds of Islamic Khalifath is written according to Mr King's AML

from SWEETSWORDS 114 [ Worth of WOMAN ]



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awal


Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 11:21am

Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta

Brother, I am almost rising in love with you. Can I have you as my Morshed-in-Chief? I lost mine months ago. They are very hard to come by.

I am sure you know what is a morshed? Even Qazi Nazar ul Islam (the most famous Bangladeshi poet) once wrote a poem for his morshed, I will write three for you.



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: poga
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 5:03am
Originally posted by Whisper

Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta

Brother, I am almost rising in love with you. Can I have you as my Morshed-in-Chief? I lost mine months ago. They are very hard to come by.

I am sure you know what is a morshed? Even Qazi Nazar ul Islam (the most famous Bangladeshi poet) once wrote a poem for his morshed, I will write three for you.

Assalamualaikum

i am the nemesis of all murshid

i am the murderer of all sufi swines

we are brothers we  have the greatest master MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim

please read SWEETSWORDS [ Masters and Monsters ] i am posting as new thread

please forgive me if my words offend you but i have very dirty job to attend



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awal


Posted By: abuayisha
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 9:48am

Originally posted by poga

i am the murderer of all sufi swines

A person must ask himself before saying anything: ‘Is there any need for me to talk?' If there is a need, then it is fine to talk. Otherwise, silence is better because refraining from unnecessary speech is a form of worship. Abdullaah Ibn Mas'ood Radhi-Allâhu ‘anhu said: “I swear by the One besides Whom there is nothing worthy of worship: one's need to imprison their tongue is greater than anything else.”

 

 The tongue is a gift from Allah. This is certainly not why Allah has gifted us with tongues and this is definitely not how gifts are appreciated.

 



Posted By: Whisper
Date Posted: 10 January 2008 at 12:42pm

A person must ask himself before saying anything: ‘Is there any need for me to talk?' If there is a need, then it is fine to talk.

Brother that's what sets the difference between abuayisha and some other people!



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Sasha Khanzadeh


Posted By: MAHDI
Date Posted: 12 January 2008 at 8:26am

REJECTED ALLEGATIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT PAQUISTANÍ
The leader of Al Qaeda in Pakistan denies it is linked to the murder of Bhutto
When the whole world knows that the brain of the murder of Bhutto is the presindente Pervez Musharraf, murderer and lackey of the United States

 

REJECTED ALLEGATIONS OF THE GOVERNMENT PAQUISTANÍ
The leader of Al Qaeda in Pakistan denies it is linked to the murder of Bhutto


Hundreds of people are manifested in Peshawar. (Photo: AFP)
Last Saturday 29/12/2007 14:24 (CET)
AGENCIES
PESHAWAR (PAKISTAN) .- Baitullah Mehsud, the Pakistani tribal leader allegedly linked to the Al Qaeda terrorist network, was not involved in the assassination of opposition leader and former prime minister Benazir Bhutto of Pakistan, said the spokesman for Mehsud.

"I am not involved in this attack. Lo flatly refuse. Tribes have their own customs and we do not attack women," said the spokesman for Mehsud, Maulvi Omar via telephone from the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

The Pakistani government had accused al-Qaeda on Friday with the murder of Bhutto, 54 years, spreading the recording of a telephone conversation intercepted by intelligence in which Mehsud allegedly congratulated the authors of the assassination.

"It's a conspiracy of the government, army and intelligence Pakistani," said the spokesman for Mehsud. Maulvi Omar, who had spoken earlier on behalf of Mehsud, ensured he called from Waziristan, the tribal areas of northwestern Pakistan bordering Afghanistan.
In this part of Pakistan, Washington guarantees that Al Qaeda and the Taliban Afghan forces reconstituted thanks to the support of local tribes fundamentalists, including the Mehsud. "It's the theater," said Mullah Omar (religious title) with respect to the transcript published on Friday by the Government on the telephone call from Mehsud one of the organizers of the attack.

The Mullah Omar also expressed his "sadness" in regard to the death of Bhutto, adding that it would have been "impossible" for the Islamist fighters to pass through the security cordon that cercaba the park where the former prime minister had just closed a rally election .

The rally was held to two weeks of the legislative and provincial elections for which his party (SPS) is the main opposition movement. Milita fiercely for the "eradication of Islamist threat" from Pakistan, in the words repeated several times by Bhutto. "Benazir was not only a leader in Pakistan but also a leader of international repute. Express our deep sorrow over his death," concluded Omar

 

THE GOVERNMENT ACKNOWLEDGES 38 DEAD IN DISTURBIOS
Pakistan offers from Bhutto exhume the body to make the autopsy
Islamabad insists that died of a stroke and his party in which he did by two shots
On Sunday, the son of Bhutto will read a posthumous message of the former prime minister
The province of Sindh is isolated from the rest of the country by violence


Followers of Bhutto are concentrated with a poster of the former agent. (Photo: AFP)
Last Saturday 29/12/2007 18:15 (CET)
AGENCIES
ISLAMABAD .- The Pakistani government has offered the Pakistan People's Party (PPP) of Benazir Bhutto murdered exhumation of the body to make an autopsy, after the doubts expressed by this training on the official version of the cause of his death.
Javed Cheema, spokesman of the Interior Ministry, has assured that the Government has no problems in certifying the cause of death which, in any case, was due to the attack. "We are willing to exhume the body of Benazir Bhutto for an investigation if his party so desires," he declared at a press conference.

"But the most important thing is not to know what caused the death, if a bullet, explosion or something else, but how he died," he insisted, referring to the attack. In any case, Cheema returned to defend the cause of death was a fractured skull caused by a sharp blow with the handle of the sliding roof of the vehicle from which greeted his supporters at the time of the attack.

A version that since Bhutto's party have rushed to deny already qualify to be a "string of lies", and insisting that the former prime minister had two bullet wounds, one in the head and another in the abdomen. A controversy fuelled because, in the absence of an autopsy performed after death has not been determined exactly the cause of death.

The spokesman for Interior also stressed that the Government "not convenient" one version over the other, because what is truly important "discover who killed her." In that regard, he insisted suspicions that the attack was "involved" Baitula Taliban leader Mesud, the tribal belt bordering Afghanistan, which the government links with Al Qaeda and who has refused, through a spokesman, his responsibility in the attack.

New outbreaks of violence


A man watches another died during the riots. (Photo: AFP)
The violence in the country, particularly in the south-eastern province of Sindh, fiefdom of Bhutto, has been a "serious setback" for the ongoing preparations for the elections on January 8. The Election Commission of Pakistan announced the convening of an emergency meeting next Monday to decide whether to retain the holding of the polls. The party of Bhutto will decide on Sunday whether boycotting, the same day that a message be known posthumously to the former prime minister.
The death toll since the murder, last Thursday, has now reached 38 people, as announced by the Interior Ministry, while the injured reach 53. The material damage by this wave of violence, according to the government, are millionaires, although the spokesman of the Interior, Javed Cheema, has described as "satisfactory" the overall security situation in the country.

"The criminals are taking advantage of the tense situation created by the death of Bhutto, according to the spokesman, who elaborated that 174 banks, 34 petrol stations, 765 shops and 72 railway wagons have been burned in the riots throughout the country.

Their numbers collide, however, shortly before those offered by the Ministry of Interior of the province of Sindh, which stood at 44 dead only in this region, and 13 banks, 27 gas stations and 600 vehicles burned in the southern city Karachi. The riots Sindh kept isolated from the rest of the country, with all railway lines cut, shops and gas stations closed and continued outbreaks of violence in the streets, according to Pakistani private television channels.

Although the army has been deployed throughout Sindh and the 'rangers' in major cities in the northwestern province of Punjab, Cheema said that the intervention of troops will be "the last resort" to maintain order. Shortly before, the country's president, Pervez Musharraf, had chaired a meeting with senior government officials and officials of the army and the security forces, who ordered act "firmly" to restore order.




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