Print Page | Close Window

Whose the Terrorist Muslim or Christian?

Printed From: IslamiCity.com
Category: Politics
Forum Name: World Politics
Forum Discription: World Politics
URL: http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10687
Printed Date: 02 September 2014 at 4:56am


Topic: Whose the Terrorist Muslim or Christian?
Posted By: OSCAR
Subject: Whose the Terrorist Muslim or Christian?
Date Posted: 16 November 2007 at 2:39am

How many Christians civilians got killed in the west by Iraq's and Afghans before Iraq and Afghanistan were bombed and lost over 1 million civilians(UK Medical Lancet Report)?

How is it that openly Committed Christian leaders (Blair Bush, and the rest, Australia Europe) and Christian solders backed buy money and support from Officially Christian countries kill 1 million innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan not be classed as Christian Terrorist when they kill civilians in an unjustified and immoral invasion. 

Could it be that the solders who drop and fire bombs from such great distances somehow feel detached from there actions, and as they seldom see the death and destruction caused, they hold no responsibility nor dose those who gave them the order for the killing.

 Yet its the Muslims that are continually labeled with "Islamic Terrorists" by the west, when a handful of Muslims do something wrong, it seems this is a war on truth.

When dose "following orders" take away the responsibility for an individuals actions, "democracies" have become a very convenient way for individuals not to think about what they are responsible for. Everyone is just "following orders" and the people at the very top have the mandate for war as, "this is what you the people of the country wanted because they voted for me to do it".   

i would love to know how Christian's feel regarding the above as they are always advocating that The Bible teaches Love and Peace. Muslims living in the west never agree with killing Innocent civilians and we have marched and protested to show it. I have not come to know of any major Christian groups marching against deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, if there have been i would like to know. 




Replies:
Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 21 November 2007 at 8:42pm
I agree with you, it's extremely unfair.  I'm saying this as a former "Christian", now just very confused and searching.


Posted By: marchfriday
Date Posted: 21 November 2007 at 10:22pm

Yes fact some day will come up, how long unfair can survive; world do have to pay for this unfair.



-------------
"Indeed, Allah is with those who fear Him and those who are doers of good."[16: 128]


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 2:18am

i wouldn't say its a matter of fair and unfair but whats the truth, and no matter what religion or belief a person believes when truth can be selective, then we can have injustice on a massive scale.

when good people do nothing bad people win



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 3:21am

I was once a Christian. I am now muslim. I see both sides of the coin. I agree that Christian leaders act wrong. I also see muslims acting wrong.

Choices have to be made in life. I once asked the question ' if killing is wrong, why do we do it? Sometimes it is necessary to bring about truth. It is not easy to explain.  For every good deed done in life comes a reward. For every crime a punishment. Decyphering justifiable murder is impossible.

As to who is right or wrong, the Christian or muslim, I have no idea. Christ taught love and peace. So did the Prophet Muhammed(pbuH) but sometimes war was necessary to bring about peace. Unfortunately to be rid of any tyrant the innocent also suffer.

Complicated. Very. But we all suffer.



Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 4:10am

what you say is quite right Muslim have killed innocent civilians and i condemn them for it, as it says in the Quran.

however the thing that is worrying is the silence from the Christian masses, I haven't seen any sizable marches from Christians as to what other Christians are doing. Every time a small group of st**id Muslims do something wrong, Muslim communities around the world are forced to go on marches condemning it and to say that Islam and Muslims dose not accept twisted justifications.



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 7:34am

I think. Oscar, the answer to that is that Christians on the whole know that marches dont solve the problem. Marches in the Western world often mean more trouble. I say that because I see and hear the response from them when there has been another march by muslims. I also dont agree with marches. It gives out the wrong signal, regardless of whether they are done peacefully and/or with peace in mind. It evokes bad feelings between Christians and muslims. I really struggle with my feelings when there are any clashes in the world. I say to myself 'here we go again'  Peace will never be achieved by marches. Someone always goes too far and ruins it.

 



Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 22 November 2007 at 8:16am

Well Oscar.. there have been marches.. and what religion they are.. well I have no idea.

Interesting they did a survey of Christians. And they said they believe that Jesus (PBUH) was for peace. Love the enemy, turn the other cheek etc. But that they beleive that you should ignore those tenents at times.. If this is the "Word of God" and "Jesus is God" how do you then say "God" is wrong?

It is fascinating.  It also depends which "Christians" you ask. The Evangelicals are probably more for the war then the Amish folks (who do not beleive in fighthing). I don't think the Quakers are likely to fight either... it just depends.

 

  



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: zakarianz
Date Posted: 23 November 2007 at 1:36am

Originally posted by Chelle

I agree with you, it's extremely unfair.  I'm saying this as a former "Christian", now just very confused and searching.

Hi chelle, sorry what do you mean by "now just very confused and searching"



-------------
Zakaria


Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 23 November 2007 at 10:44am
I just mean that I'm looking for something to believe in.  I've attended many different churches (admittedly, mostly Christian) and studied many different religions but just haven't found anything that seems right to me.


Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 23 November 2007 at 6:29pm

Hi Chelle,

This link, is an English translation of Qur'an, which is meant not just for muslims but for whole Humanity.

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM - http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM

Please go thru it and anywhere, u don't understand any, do feel free to discuss them with us . We shall all help u clear them insha-Allah.



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 23 November 2007 at 6:46pm
Thank you!


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 24 November 2007 at 5:54am

Originally posted by Chelle

Thank you!

i remember a story from Christian convert she said that when she went to her priest and said I'm a bit confused about Christianity and i would like to compare and research other religions which will hopefully give me a better understanding of Christianity.

the priest said good idea and helped her in study in Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Judaism and the many other religions, when she asked the priest about Islam, he said you can research any religion you want but don't study Islam. why?

 



Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 24 November 2007 at 7:41am
I don't know.  Why?


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 24 November 2007 at 2:57pm

you will find out if you read the Quran.

Thanks for replying



Posted By: seekshidayath
Date Posted: 24 November 2007 at 6:02pm

Oscar, don't u know, its not just one story, but many priests forbid u all from studying Islam.

Chelle, u shall insha-Allah find that this Book is n't tampered or has any author except God. And yes, as u keep on reading it, u shall find your questions answered. We  don't want u to convince with stories and tales, but with the facts.

Oscar did u read Quran, personally.



-------------
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."


Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 24 November 2007 at 6:24pm

I'm assuming that the reason Christians would not want me to study Islam is because you don't believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, which kind of blows Christianity out of the water.



Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 25 November 2007 at 11:58am

the jesus issue is one of the thing that is discussed, there is a lot more. 

and yes i have read the Quran, but im not trying to pass judgement on any religion only what i know.

thanks



Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 18 December 2007 at 11:39pm
Oscar you have this issue that you need to clear before you go on
demonizing Christianity.

If you've read the Bible, which I doubt you have. Read the Sermon on the
Mount. If you don't have a Bible here I'll post it for you. From Mathew
Chapter 5

1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat
down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
      for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
      for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
      for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
      for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
      for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
      for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
      for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
      for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say
all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad,
because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they
persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light

13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how
can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be
thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden.
15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they
put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the
same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good
deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I
have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth,
until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least
stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until
everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of
these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called
least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these
commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you
that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the
teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not
murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I
tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to
judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable
to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the
fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there
remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift
there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then
come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court.
Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to
the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may
be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you
have paid the last penny.[d]

Adultery

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I
tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already
committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you
to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part
of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if
your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better
for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into
hell.
Divorce

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a
certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his
wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an
adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits
adultery.
Oaths

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not
break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I
tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or
by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the
Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even
one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,'
'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
An Eye for an Eye

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g]
39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on
the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to
sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If
someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the
one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to
borrow from you.
Love for Enemies

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your
enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who
persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He
causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the
righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what
reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if
you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do
not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father
is perfect.
Matthew 6

Giving to the Needy

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen
by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as
the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by
men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But
when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your
right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your
Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer

5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray
standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men.
I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you
pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is
unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward
you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they
think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like
them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9"This, then, is how you should pray:
   " 'Our Father in heaven,
   hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
   your will be done
      on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
      as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
   but deliver us from the evil one.[j]' 14For if you forgive men when they
sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you
do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Fasting

16"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they
disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth,
they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on
your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to men
that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your
Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Treasures in Heaven

19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and
rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for
yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and
where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is,
there your heart will be also.
22"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole
body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will
be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is
that darkness!

24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the
other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot
serve both God and Money.

Do Not Worry

25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or
drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important
than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the
birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet
your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than
they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[k]?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field
grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in
all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God
clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown
into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So
do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or
'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and
your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his
kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you
as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will
worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Matthew 7

Judging Others

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you
judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be
measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay
no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your
brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is
a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your
own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your
brother's eye.

6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If
you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear
you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the
door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who
seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if
he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are
evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will
your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in
everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this
sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the
road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is
the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
A Tree and Its Fruit

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing,
but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize
them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad
fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear
good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and
thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of
heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from
me, you evildoers!'

The Wise and Foolish Builders

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them
into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The
rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against
that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.
26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them
into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain
came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that
house, and it fell with a great crash."


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 9:38am

i am defiantly not demonizing Christianity, my question is very simple why are openly committed Christian leaders (bush Blair) and their majority Christian populations taken part in murder and to this day done nothing to stop Innocent Muslim civilians deaths, or admit their behavior was immoral according to the bible, or do they still think they were right to do so like in a recent TV interview with Blair.

if the Christian west cant even see what they did was wrong what bible have they been reading. is there a verse in the bible that says create lies about a another nation and there religion and then bomb them until they accept democracy    



Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 10:09am
Originally posted by OSCAR

if the Christian west cant even see what they did was wrong what bible have they been reading. is there a verse in the bible that says create lies about a another nation and there religion and then bomb them until they accept democracy    

It sure seems that way, doesn't it?  I, for one, am deeply ashamed of the things my current president has done and continues to do in the name of religion.  Hopefully, our next president won't be another religious fanatic.



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 19 December 2007 at 10:16am

I think what is confusing is the fact that the bible continually is being altered.

Anatolian, the bible verses you have written down for us are not of The Bible St James version. The one you have quoted from has been interpreted differently, and so can change the meaning of the original St James version. (The original version is also not complete and has many authors)Surely many Christians then are confused with so many versions circulating? Perhaps it is the cause for misunderstanding amongst Christian leaders/politicans? Oscar you said 'if the Christian west cant even see what they did was wrong what bible have they been reading. I dont know which version/s they were reading to be honest.

The Quran however, has never been altered. (Seekshidayath also pointed this out, as have others)It has only been translated into other languages so others can understand it. There is a big difference bewteen translation and alteration. Christians tell others to not read the Quran. Islam is an easy religion to understand. Christians seem to think that religion must be complicated as they have indeed made it so.

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 12:28am
Who cares if it's not St. James version? Does it really matter? Will you sit
here and demonize this wonderfull message? What are you getting at?

Martha I do not know where you give your information. My father, a
Catholic, handed me a Qu'ran himself when I asked him for one. This is
comming from a man who lost his grand father at the hands of Muslims.
Priests study the Torah AND the Qu'ran as a course in order for them to
become priests.

I explained to Salams Wife in a previous reply about religion. Go and read
it under the General Discussion. Religion is not meant to be understood
so easily. Your basically saying that God and humans must have the same
level of thinking? Religion is a long process to understand. Christianity IS
simple. If you basically follow the Sermon on the Mount you will be
blessed with God's everlasting love yet you chose not to. You ask for
more and more. You expect to know the secrets of this life yet you can't.
Nobody can't. It relies on faith and a bit of common sense to know if this
is decent enough to believe in or if it will make me into a better human. A
better mother, father, brother or sister, friend or husband, wife or
neighbor, son or daughter. If Islam does that for you fine. But just
because something is "easy" to understand and that your satisfied with
the simplest of answers that would make you a simpleton in mind. One is
suppose to seek the truth and study and compare and experiance and
learn EVERYTHING about his/her religion including it's history and the
acts of its prophets. Simple answers are not always a safe route to follow.


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 2:15am

Dear Anatolian,

We should 'care' which version of the Bible we read. Thats why I said the St James Version. It is the one which contains the truths as far as we know the Bible to be correct. I have studied different versions,of some Christian religious groups and they can and do interpret differently. So the message therefore is different. I certainly dont demonise the 'wonderful message' The Bible is important to me, and goes hand in hand with the Quran as far as I'm concerned.

Religion is not difficult to understand if we listen to God. It becomes difficult when people get confused. That then does not help the questioning mind. It is important to learn as much as we can in this life, to the best of our ability. I didnt realise that my message was misunderstood in this way.It is not enough to say 'I believe' and do nothing more. Of course we must progress. We have been blessed with an enquiring mind so with thankful heart to God we should use it. And of course what we dont understand we accept in all faith, knowing that our God will one day, at the right time reveal to us more. We are all at different stages of learning.I didnt imply othewise.  What might be simple for one to accept, might not apply to another. When you understand a Heavenly principle it is simple isnt it? But I certainly dont believe for one minute that God would want us to be so wrapped up in trying to unravel all things. It is most likely to turn the well intending believer into one that no longer feels he can try his best, and so not bother at all. And I dont believe God is like this with us.

I apologise if you felt I seemed uncaring. I would not knowingly wish to upset another. But my belief in God carries me through each day. I have a very enquiring mind about Him. Because of Him I am in the world at this important time of its history. I dont prophess to be any different, or do anything different to anyone else. I do the best I can, and always try to go 'the extra mile'. If you have read some of my other posts you will know that I was a Christian for most of my life. I respect everyone and all faiths. I could happily discuss any aspect with you. My mind is not so blinkered that I turn away from others. Only my heart is set, to serve God the best way I can. And I believe that is what you do also. I hope we can continue our conversations. I would like that. Any unintended misunderstandings can be cleared along the way.

 



Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 10:07am

[QUOTE=Anatolian]Who cares if it's not St. James version? Does it really matter? Will you sit
here and demonize this wonderfull message? What are you getting at?

most of the bible is Gods word as it says in the Quran, however even a very small change in Gods bible can have profound effect with meaning over the centuries.

as an example would you say Bush Blair and Hitler who all say they were believing Christians will go to heaven because Jesus paid for there sins.

or do you think bush and Blair did nothing wrong as Christians

 



Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:23pm
Martha, if I am not mistaken I think it was you lives in Britain or are of
British background. Are you talking about the King Jame's bible? That's
what I'm understanding. King James Bible is a Protestant translation of the
Holy Book. Thats only accepted by Protestant denominations. I'm not
familiar with it because of my Catholic Book. But it's not really fair of you
to state that only the King James version is the only one that is correct.
Remember King Jame's translation of the the Bible in 1611 was more
political then religious. Either way I don't think this is the forum to
discuss the matter.

The thing I have an issue with between Islam and Christianity is the
following. In Christianity you are free to ask and debate, to question and
to argue. That is expected out of you because God gave you a brain and
he wants you to use it. And if you are not satisfied with what Christianity
is offering you, you are more then welcome to leave the flock and your
are welcomed to join it back if you wish to do so. But in Islam you are not
to ask "complicated" answers to an Imam or he will call you a heretic or if
he is polite he will just say leave it to Allah for it's too complicated we are
only his slaves. If you haven't found anything in Islam that you feel is
right for you, good luck leaving it. If you haven't heard much stories
about those who leave Islam and what they face by those who are close to
them then you should look up some stories and read for yourself.

As for Oscar, where has Hitler ever said he was a believing Christian. On
the contrary he persecuted so many clergyman, deacons, pastors, nuns,
pious faithfull, from both Catholic and Protestant Churches because as he
stated, Christianity was a bigger threat to him then the Allies. These are
quotes he said from a book published in the '40's I believe. It's called
Hitler's Secret Conversations.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:


Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:


National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow
that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is
Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The
deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by
Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of
the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:


Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature.
Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic
cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:


The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When
understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian
doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the
peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread
abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:


The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that
it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

Oscar, as you can see Hitler was no Christian. Nothing he did was
Christian. He used Christianity at first to entice his people to his beliefs
thinking that he was doing God's work to punish the Jews for Christ's
death but his true colors shined quite soon.

As for Bush and Blair and any congressman or parliamentarian. They are
no Christians but belong to the New World Order of Freemasonry. Which
is not Christian at all, it actually intends on crushing all religions
especially Christianity. What they don't know is the fact that the only
institution that has survived world wars, diseases, invasions, etc... Is the
Church and it will remain until the end of days. That is a fact. Just
because one is born from a Christian nation or family does not mean he
IS one. Your acts define what your faith is and these men are from from a
decent Christian.


Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 21 December 2007 at 11:28pm
Martha, I enjoy discussing with you. I find you respectfull and willing to learn
from others as I would like to learn from your experiances. I look forward to
future replies. I know you intend no harm trust me I come out as a pitbull at
times but I do not intend to do so but I do have a short patience when it
comes to ignorant folks who truly believe they are right even though many
have never read the Bible yet have Bible quotes edited by Islamic
fundementalist websites bookmarked on there screens waiting to use it to
cause harm to others. Many have never known a Christian and are ready to
denounce everything a Christian/Jew states.


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 22 December 2007 at 5:44am

Hi Anatolian,

My time is short today, and am unable to answer all the things you have pointed out. But I will come back again on Monday to fully digest.

I'll briefly explain a couple of things. Yes I'm white British, and used the King James version of the Bible as a Christian. Have never read the Catholic version, maybe I should, and then maybe it'll be more fair to discuss the Bible truths?

It does seem to be the way that with Christianity you are free to ask as many questions as you care to ask. I searched many denominations. But thats a long story.

As with regards to Islam I wouldnt like to give a definate answer . I have to admit I dont understand a great deal that is discussed on IC or anywhere else. I do as much reading as I can, and mull it over in my mind. I have no doubt that many muslims cannot understand me. There are some very helpful muslims here however that try to explain in a simple manner. So I appreciate that. I also get het up from time to time, and try hard not to express here, as it wouldnt be the right thing to do. Mine is a complicated story on the whole. As I am on my own I have a lot of time to wonder about life and God/Allah. But I am more than satisfied to know that He is the same for me now as when I was a Christian. He doesnt change at all for me. He understands everything about me,and that is such a comfort.

I understand you well on your above comments

I'll return here on Monday. I wish you an enjoyable w/end.



Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 22 December 2007 at 10:03am

Hi Anatolian

I'm not an imam, Islam encourages debate but insulting any religion is not debating, that said ask me what ever you want about Islam. 

one of the reasons Hitler and the Nazis gave to persecute the Jews was they killed Jesus



Posted By: minuteman
Date Posted: 22 December 2007 at 10:08pm

 

 Well said OSCAR.    And the post of Martha dated 21 December was excellent. Anatolian should try to see the King James version of the bible. I read that and enjoyed it very much. Of course my study was limited to the four gospels. Whatever I saw of Jesus, it was excellent and easy to understand, specially the chapters of Mathews.

 We can read the bible and fall in love with Jesus. But that is not all. We as Muslims are already in love with Jesus and his mother and all the prophets of Allah. We do not differentiate between any messenger of God, nor do we reject any of them. The message of all of them is LOVE. Quran is full of wisdom. It is the new or last testament.

If there is any decent question about Islam or some querry, I am also ready to explain even though i am not any religious head (maulvi). Anatolian is partly right in blaming ISLAM because some of the things that are mentioned by Anatolian are true. They are the bad practices of the ignorant Muslims and they are not any true part of Islam.

 My teacher in England told me once, "In India, Mulla says 'Don't do as I do. But do as I tell you.' " There was a good message for me about the bad habits of the Muslim religious leaders of India. I had made a mistake and I tried to justify it by the act/ practice of the teacher. He then warned me and told me the above words. That was a beautiful gentle way of teaching me.



-------------
If any one is bad some one must suffer


Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 23 December 2007 at 2:49am

The Nazis USED this "Christ-Killer" message to finish off the Jews. It's one
of many excuses they used to butchered people. Either they blamed their
loss of WW1, the economic struggle faced by the country after the Great
War, and a history of intolerance that dated back hundreds of years. But
they did not kill the Jews because of Christ. God did not command them
to do so, so that is hardly an excuse. They killed off the Jews and stole
their assets to fund there racist rhetoric and spread it across the globe.
Many factors are used in the Holocaust. The Nazis were no Christians to
begin with neither were there acts so I believe as most scholars do, that
the Jesus theory is baseless.

Christianity is used by many politicians, emperors, kings, presidents,
dictators, tyrants as a cover up to blind their people into joining their
causes, which are almost always based on greed. Practically any religion
not soley Christianity. You see it today with Islam. It is being used by
monsters to spread fear and intimidation. I have my doubts on Islam as
most of you know but I draw the line where it's innocent faithfull are
forced to live in fear and face persecution by there neighbors. Any
religion has good and bad seeds. I am honored to hold very close life
long friendships with many muslims (one of my best man by my side on
my wedding was a Muslim and he gave me the best advice of all...you still
have time to run away

I will ask my questions on Islam as I hope you ask me on Christianity. It's
time for our sides to seriously TALK and hear each other. Were hidding
behind this "Iron Curtain" for the last 1400 years it's about time we start
understanding each other. As I was raised in Middle East, I know more
about Islamic culture and was surrounded by it to the point where I refuse
to eat bacon. I don't know why maybe it's the layer of fat that pulls me
away I don't know. The point I'm making here is that I understand it and
what your trying to convey to me because I know the culture more then
my adopted country's. That should help your end knowing and
understanding your message because Islam is practically a Middle Eastern
religion and with that part of the world comes all it's positive and
negative points. Gentle souls but blood boiling over the kettle.


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 23 December 2007 at 10:31am

Anatolian,

You have raised some good points with your above message.

I also never thought Hitler was Christian and I have always been  of the opinion that he persecuted the Jews because of their wealth. Hitler despised anyone that just didnt fit in with his views. Which pretty much included everyone. He hated the blacks, muslims, asians,Christians and so on. He was pure evil. Just being alive threatened him.

Am I right in thinking that as a child Hitlers best friend was a Jew? Am sure it was in his biography. (no I didnt read it)

Greed is the basis behind  invasions. Religion does not play a part in politics at all, though we are supposed to believe this. If all religions acted as they should then there would be no wars.

As a Christian I never had to feel fear from anyone else. However, I have faced many obstacles since I became muslim. I recently told a forum friend of mine that I am no longer  free to outwardly practice Islam. And that is very sad, and unfair. Strangely enough, I told her just 3 days back that I feel in the same league as the Jews that hid in fear of Hitler. So your comments today have said the very same thing .....'I draw the line where it's innocent faithfull are
forced to live in fear and face persecution by there neighbors.'
I dont feel I can fight anymore the obstacles that are constantly presented to me. I get it from muslims and CHristians alike. So I am a secret muslim. That is FACT. But my faith in Islam is ever strong. I enjoy reading about the Prophet Muhammed (pbuH). It keeps me going in a world that is full of trouble and contention. The Prophet kept his teachings simple, so others could understand. Much in the same way that Jesus taught in parables. I would have had a far better life had I been born into a muslim family. But that was not meant to be. But I feel very fortunate that I embraced Islam when I did.

I hope for the time when all religions can come together and calmly discuss. There are many good Christians and muslims in the world, but these are greatly outnumbered. I will refrain from saying what kind of people they are. It wouldnt be polite. 

I always look forward to any forum conversation that might produce good, intelligent and mature responses from all faiths. It is always good to learn 'good'

 



Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 23 December 2007 at 2:44pm

Anatolian

hi im not sure there is a question in your reply but i will give you a basic answer,  Islam is simple logical and practical as you have experieced by not eating pork, we don't eat pork because of any irrational fears or belifes its simply you are what you eat. if the pig eats rubbish and you eat the pig you have eaten rubbish, the pig itself is a marvelous creature created by God to recycle harmful organic matter.

if you agree Muslims are right about pork, in time you will realize they were right about everything else in the Quran.  



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 23 December 2007 at 11:03pm

The question of this thread is misleading:

Whose the Terrorist Muslim or Christian?

 The above question no offense is not well written out because either the author did not properly think of the correct title or is not proficient in the english language (no offense). "Whose the terrorist Muslim or Christian?" Implies implicating a person. However judging from the responses I understand what the author is trying to get at. In my opinion terrorism is not defined by religion but rather is one of many possible motivating factors. Of course historically many warriors in the medieval times have used religion as a guide to conquer new lands and some used religion to take them back.

Religion, much like things we eat are only dangerous when done in excessive fashion. When one tries to force religion on another autonomous human being then it becomes VERY dangerous. Should we ponder the question on who is the most dangerous of the two Muslim or Christian? I'd say neither because they are equally capable of committing the same horrific crimes regardless of doctrine. There have been many crimes (both in the media and not) done in the name of Christianity and many crimes done in the name of Islam. I don't think looking at personal experiences including news paper clips and news reports account for truth they are basically perspectives on the issue.



Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 24 December 2007 at 1:05am
Israfil, I completly agree with you and that humanities brutality surpasses
religion. But we do not see any brutality within Christianity these days as we
see in Islam. The actions by these fundementalists is quite, how can I put it,
archaically disgusting. I came across this article today I would like you all to
read it and to give me some feed back on it. I want you all to read the part
about the Christian toddler who was kidnapped and how his mother could
not pay the ransom. The way he was "sent back" to his mother is beyond
belief.

http://www.aina.org/releases/2007053195824.htm



Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 25 December 2007 at 3:50am

Originally posted by Anatolian

Israfil, I completly agree with you and that humanities brutality surpasses
religion. But we do not see any brutality within Christianity these days as we
see in Islam. The actions by these fundementalists is quite, how can I put it,
archaically disgusting. I came across this article today I would like you all to
read it and to give me some feed back on it. I want you all to read the part
about the Christian toddler who was kidnapped and how his mother could
not pay the ransom. The way he was "sent back" to his mother is beyond
belief.

http://www.aina.org/releases/2007053195824.htm

again as i have written previously one criminal action is enough for you to make insinuations about Islam.

you conveniently forget the religion of those like you who say we Christians are peace loving, and then drop bombs and blow of the arms and legs of kids in Iraq remember Khalid, who came to UK for surgery after his entire family were killed he was on Fox news there are thousands more like him.

Anatolian answer me one simple question in the last 10 years what was the religion of the people who killed the most civilians in the world, dont forget Rwanda and Bosnia in your calculations.

 



Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 25 December 2007 at 8:12am
Everything George Bush has done has been in the name of his version of Christianity. 


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 25 December 2007 at 8:24am

 I think the point Anatolian was trying to convey is that wars such as Iraq are not based on religion ie Christianity.

They were done for the sake of some other cause. The leaders might declare they are Christians, and  try to establish peace in foreign lands by killing innocent civilians. Regardless of any ones beliefs, we all know that the innocent suffer. But these wars are based on politics, greed and selfishness, not religion. Regardless, their acts obviously are accountable for in front of God, but often unanswered for in this life.

He is suggesting that there are muslims who kill purely for the sake of the religion Islam. They are often, though not always, random attacks  against all peoples of all religions,including its own. It is this that Christians cannot understand. How can they believe that Islam is a religion of peace ? Britains will remember the tube bombings for example. It was planned to cause as much  chaos and loss of life as possible, by  young muslim fanatics, that did it for the cause of Islam. Several innocent muslims died in the bombings too.

 One final comment regarding the innocent of Iraq that lost limbs and needed surgery. It is invariably the Christians who paid and made it possible for them to have prosthetic limbs and counselling and  money is given in its millions to repair damage done to all war riddled countries. 

 

 

 



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Hayfa
Date Posted: 25 December 2007 at 9:22am

But in Islam you are not to ask "complicated" answers to an Imam or he will call you a heretic or if he is polite he will just say leave it to Allah for it's too complicated we are only his slaves.

Oh now come on.. this is not accurate. You have to know about levels of knowledge. The basic idea of Islam is easy (Belief in One God, Prohets, Angels etc.) and then it takes a lifetime of learning and knowledge, practice to gain a deeper understanding of Islam.  And an Iman is not a scholar.

I also have never been told by people that something is too complicated. The vast majority of Muslims if they do not know the answer will help you find it or ask someone they know.

And 2nd of all, there are many, many Catholics, Christians etc, when really pushed for an explanation of the trinity say" you just have to believe."  And besides, the average Catholic does not have the depth of knowledge to debate using Biblical or Quranic sources.

And most of us have never said you are a heretic  



-------------
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 25 December 2007 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by martha

 It is invariably the Christians who paid and made it possible for them to have prosthetic limbs and counselling and  money is given in its millions to repair damage done to all war riddled countries. 

 

 

 

was it not the same Christians that were responsible for blowing them up, and then you want to show the Muslims how compassionate you are for helping them.

the logic some people use is crazy



Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 25 December 2007 at 3:58pm
No, Oscar, you're not.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 25 December 2007 at 7:07pm

Anatolian you said:

"Israfil, I completly agree with you and that humanities brutality surpasses
religion. But we do not see any brutality within Christianity these days as we
see in Islam."

If you agree with me completely this comment above would be unnecessary. "We" don't see anything that implicates Islam as a brutal religion, but if we can find anything that would implicate the culprit, we would see that those who take religion excessively as oppose to the general populace are at high risk becoming fanatical. I feel like I'm repeating myself.

Martha you said:

I think the point Anatolian was trying to convey is that wars such as Iraq are not based on religion ie Christianity

How do you know?

From face value it may not look that way but you never know.

 

 

 



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 4:07am
martha wrote:

 It is invariably the Christians who paid and made it possible for them to have prosthetic limbs and counselling and  money is given in its millions to repair damage done to all war riddled countries. 

 

 

Oscar you asked me:-

was it not the same Christians that were responsible for blowing them up, and then you want to show the Muslims how compassionate you are for helping them.

the logic some people use is crazy.

 Oscar, yes it is the same Christians that were responsible, that then helped the innocent mend their lives. It is not the fault of the innocent that their countries leaders are corrupt and bad. It is logical to help the ones that suffer then isnt it?  Or would you suggest otherwise?

Israfil, if you read my words correctly:-

I think the point Anatolian was trying to convey is that wars such as Iraq are not based on religion ie Christianity

What is your question exactly, do you want me to answer for Anatolians' view or mine? My view is obvious. I dont believe that wars started by Christians are done so for the sake of CHristianity. How do I know? No more than you know the answer, brother. None of us know the intentions in the hearts of others. We can only go by the facts that face us. You should know by now that I am muslim. I am not defending Christianity, but I will defend any person of any faith if they deserve it. That is my right to do so. It is personal to me. My choice.

But many muslims have much to answer for too. Dont neglect this in your attack on CHristianity. I will insult no religion, I have said this time over. It serves no purpose other than giving us all something to have a chat about. We must look at all angles to be able to understand what makes people 'tick'. One thing that sticks in my mind is how can Sadam Hussein offer five times a day prayer and then persecute his people. Where is the logic in that? Do I defend this type of person? Of course I do not. But let me make it clear, to everyone. I am not disrespecting Islam just because I dont respect the man. So dont try to even point this out to me. My question to you then is why should I try to be a good muslim? Does not me being a follower of Islam put me in the same league as Sadam? No, of course it doesnt. It is no different to  Christian people trying to do good when leaders such as Bush, Blair and Mush do idiotic acts. Never match the religion to a persons deeds. It is totally illogical.



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 8:37am

Martha, calm down it was only a question...... Why are you so hostile?

The fact that you believe wars are not started on the religious factor is your belief which I respect. However with me, I believe wars are started by many variables and I believe beliefs whether religious or not, are one of them. You ask how can Saddam pray five times a day and persecute his people? Again, how do we know he prays five times a day? Does television implicates these facts? Books? But for argument's sake let us assume that he did pray five times a day. Most vile leaders in their mind have  a totally different conscious than other humans. In their mind, their lack of conscious in turn distorts the outside world and they believe as if what they do is the right thing when unanimously their actions are considered wrong by the world.

Hitler had an idea of a pure race and would exterminate other humans for this idea and in his mind he thought this was the right plan. Many fanatics regardless of religion use this tatic to control the ignorant masses.



Posted By: ops154
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 10:38am
Originally posted by OSCAR

i am defiantly not demonizing Christianity, my question is very simple why are openly committed Christian leaders (bush Blair) and their majority Christian populations taken part in murder and to this day done nothing to stop Innocent Muslim civilians deaths, or admit their behavior was immoral according to the bible, or do they still think they were right to do so like in a recent TV interview with Blair.

if the Christian west cant even see what they did was wrong what bible have they been reading. is there a verse in the bible that says create lies about a another nation and there religion and then bomb them until they accept democracy    

Our country is not run by the bible, or at least it is not supposed to be. Religion and politics should and are supposed to be separated. Hopefully after Bush leaves office we will get back to this thinking but I'm not holding my breath.

As far as the civilians go, we don't target them on purpose. I know many here don't believe that but it is the truth. On the other hand, Muslims routinely target areas with lots of civilians to inflict as much damage and death as they can. We on the other hand actually limit our use. That is why we can blow up a building and leave the one next to it standing. Now of course we will never be able to prevent all of them but we do try. I know some people talk about us dropping a bomb on wedding parties and such but come on, when you fire weapons at a wedding in the middle of a war zone you should count on a chance of being fired back on. On the other hand, how many times do we hear about a bomb going on in a packed market and then another one just as the emergency help starts to arrive? There is no other purpose other than to kill civilians and that is done by people who like to scream "In the name of Allah" just before they pull the trigger. Also, these statistics of civilian deaths, are they listed out as to who killed them? Were they killed by sectarian violence, were they in the same building as someone who was shooting at our troops? All of this needs to be considered in my opinion. I know if America didn't invade Afghanistan or Iraq then the number would be a lot lower because the Taliban and Hussan didn't kill this many this fast but not all of the civilian deaths were caused by American bullets.

 



-------------
Get it through your heads that I don't support Bush or the Israeli's! Thank your lucky stars for America is here to stay!!!


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 10:45am

the vast majority of Muslims do not blame the average Christian in the street for what other Christians have done or are doing.

however ask Muslims living in the west how they and there religion has been demonised when Muslims do wrong, George bush and the "Civilized world"

you say that those Muslims did it in the name of Islam, but Tony Blair now a Catholic convert said that he asked for Gods guidance before be started the war.

whats the difference



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 26 December 2007 at 11:32am

Israfil, I am not a hostile person, so sorry you felt this. All of us get on our soap box from time to time, you included brother. I guess it was my turn to be something other than the 'pobre martha' that whisper has decided I am. So allow me this occasionally.

There will always be tyrants. We will never stop that.

Hitler, had he succeeded in his quest to ultimately control the whole world, would have made it virtually impossible for us to have any kind of freedom.  Sadam received the punishment he also deserved .

Oscar pointed out that Blair, before he was a Catholic, asked God for guidance before starting the war. We only have Blairs word for that. And Blair didnt say what Gods/Allahs reply was. Is he saving that to put in his updated memoirs? And why do we think Blair will listen to God when he didnt listen to the British people who told him not to invade Iraq? Blair, who was voted into office by the people,ultimately failed the people, and as such he failed God. Harsh words maybe.

 

 



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 12:19am

It is the christians who are waging all the wars. in the last century and this century including Iraq and Afghanistan. I would be happy if the christians did it under christianity, rathar they are doing it for money, power etc materialistic gains. On the other hand the muslims who are fighting these christians are doing it in self defence in the name of religion.

The religion who have largest practicing followers is Islam. So it will always look like this, as most of the muslims will not abandon religion as others did. If the christians would follow the religion of bible most of these wars wouldn't have happened.



-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 12:54am
Originally posted by nu001

It is the christians who are waging all the wars. in the last century and this century including Iraq and Afghanistan. I would be happy if the christians did it under christianity, rathar they are doing it for money, power etc materialistic gains. On the other hand the muslims who are fighting these christians are doing it in self defence in the name of religion.

The religion who have largest practicing followers is Islam. So it will always look like this, as most of the muslims will not abandon religion as others did. If the christians would follow the religion of bible most of these wars wouldn't have happened.

Your comments are the words of a religious fanatic [of course I'm not saying you are]



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 2:16am

nu001, is this your version of James Bond 007? Are you a secret agent who has knowledge that we dont have?

If so , then please explain the role of the suicide bomber that kills at random? How is this self defence? We know that the western leaders wage wars because of greed and so on. But until the muslimfanatics understand Islam and the Quran correctly the needless cowardly bomber will continue to destroy lives.

 



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 4:06pm
Martha: Everything is fair in love and war!

It all depends upon the intention in your heart. I hate to give a bad example but you must know the story of Masada  I think the Jews opted for a wrong method IMHO.

 


Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 4:21pm

I just think its a cowardly way of taking the law into your own hands. So, will there come a time then when an army of Islam invades the world in full view of everyone? This is a serious question now, cos I dont know.

Actually, I dont know the story of Masada. Please tell me. I'm not being flipant, I seriously want to know.

Salaams brother.



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 6:53pm
The non-governmental Muslim forces are too cowardly and religious to fight for true justice or take over lands. I would give the Israeli special forces more credit than religious soldiers. The days where muslim armies came in large numbers like that of Sala-hudin are over.


Posted By: Salams_wife
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 7:26pm

Perhaps attacking soldiers is within reason if they are in your country, but how does one justify them blowing themselves up in a market full of civilians in the name of Allah?  I have yet to figure this one out.



Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 27 December 2007 at 11:53pm

Originally posted by martha

Actually, I dont know the story of Masada. Please tell me. I'm not being flipant, I seriously want to know.

Salaams brother.

This a part of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_rebellion - Jewish- Roman war history:

The fall of Masada

    During the spring of 71, Titus set sail for Rome. A new military governor was then appointed from Rome, Lucilius Bassus, whose assigned task was to undertake the "mopping-up" operations in Judaea. He used X Fretensis to oppose the few remaining fortresses that still resisted. Bassus took Herodium, and then crossed the Jordan to capture the fortress of Machaerus on the shore of the Dead Sea. Due to illness, Bassus did not live to complete his mission. Lucius Flavius Silva replaced him, and moved against the last Jewish stronghold, Masada, in the autumn of 72. He used Legio X, auxiliary troops, and thousands of Jewish prisoners, for a total of 10,000 soldiers. After his orders for surrender were rejected, Silva established several base camps and circumvallated the fortress. According to Josephus, when the Romans finally broke through the walls of this citadel in 73, they discovered that the 967 defenders had preferred death, than to be tortured by the Romans. Since suicide was not allowed by the Jewish religion, they killed each other till the last man, who was the only one who had to commit suicide.



Posted By: martha
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 4:34am

Sign*Reader,

Thanks for your explanation. But I will try next time to use google. Was feeling pretty tired when I posted. No excuse I know

Yes I know who Dr Iqbal is.

Thanks again



-------------
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 28 December 2007 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by Salams_wife

Perhaps attacking soldiers is within reason if they are in your country, but how does one justify them blowing themselves up in a market full of civilians in the name of Allah?  I have yet to figure this one out.


Some things are hard to explain!


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 12:51am
Originally posted by Israfil

Your comments are the words of a religious fanatic [of course I'm not saying you are]

Dear Israfil, please go back to the definitions of fanaticism and then weigh my words, please don't use rhetorics without understanding. 



-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 1:09am
Originally posted by martha

nu001, is this your version of James Bond 007? Are you a secret agent who has knowledge that we dont have?

You are free to have wild thoughts !!

If so , then please explain the role of the suicide bomber that kills at random? How is this self defence?

Every battle is suicidal for it's participants. Can you guarrantee the life of the US soldiers in the frontlines? Who is a brave soldier in US or any army in a battle? "who does not care for his life and puts his life on the line for other's safety or victory" if you have another definition for the US or UK gallantary awards, please tell me. So the sucide bombers are the bravest people. They are just fighting. That's the technique right now available to fight the enemy, so what's wrong in it? Talk about civilian damage? tell me a war anyone has fought without any civilian casualty? Didnt israelis kill or are not killing civilians in palestine? in Lebanon? in WW1, WW2, Iraq and Afg? where the christian govts are not killing civilians? You just don't have a solution to counter the sucide bombers, so you shout about it.

We know that the western leaders wage wars because of greed and so on. But until the muslimfanatics understand Islam and the Quran correctly the needless cowardly bomber will continue to destroy lives.

and Christians needs to understand bible and follow, then there would be no problems, for sure.



-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 29 December 2007 at 1:15am
Originally posted by martha

I just think its a cowardly way of taking the law into your own hands. So,

how can it be a cowardly way? should be the bravest way !! Isn't your Army brave enough to die in the battle for his/her country? 

will there come a time then when an army of Islam invades the world in full view of everyone? This is a serious question now, cos I dont know.

Why this is a question? See stats, how many islamic countries have invaded west in last 1400 years and how many the opposite? If you are thinking of the consequential effect, i am not sure either, if or when it will happen.

 

salam

 



-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 30 December 2007 at 2:50pm

murder is murder whether from a unjustified immoral war or from a crazed suicide bomber.

but according to the Christian west when they murder its got nothing to do with being a Christian, but if a Muslim dose something wrong then his religion must be wrong.

just because they don't say "in the name of Christ" before they commit murder dose not mean they are not beliving christians.    



Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 11:31pm
I believe that the reason why Christians and others believe Islam to be a
warrior-like religion is because your own prophet started and fought many
battles. How do you think he controlled Arabia all the way to North Africa in
less then a generation? The Hadiths and the Koran are specific about this.


Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 01 January 2008 at 11:50pm
Oscar you emphasize the word "Christian" when you speak of the West. As a
Christian who lives in the West I don't FEEL it's Christian at all. The
seperation of Church and State in Europe and America means religion is NOT
part of it's economic or political goals. Christian communities who are to this
day suffering under an Islamic regime are not heard yet Kosovo Albanians
are backed up by this "Christian" West. (By the way the Kosovo Albanians are
Muslims in case you didn't know. So are majority of Bosniaks who, with the
help of the West have an independent state.) Enough labeling NATO, The EU,
The US, Canada, and everybody who has one Christian more living in a
country that those policies are Christian. There not. Grow up and get
yourself an education. Try not to sound so foolish.


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 1:46am

Anatolian

Prophet has fought wars, but you must know that, in all the occassions, he was under attack from the enemy. The attack prophet did finally on Mecca to capture it, as the non believers broke the treaty, was won without any fight.

Have the christians fought any less in europe? invading and colonizing all of the world? your logic of prophet fighting war is poor.

It is true that the church and state is seperate in europe and America, that only has liberated the state in making laws which are against bible. Have no way stopped the christians running the state to think anti Islamic in their christian minds. Establishment of Israel and the entire world politics is anti islamic world, which is of christian minds.

That's why a secular George bush calls for 'crusade' before attacking Iraq and still angelicals are one of the deciding factors in US election, N time theologists still influence US politics, Jewish lobbies are sitting officially in the Capitol hill to influence policies, .................. church and state might have been seperated, majority of the western population might be a christian by name, but the anti islamic policies of the political west hasn't stopped.

So it is ok to call them christians if you look from the other side. Knowledge may have two sides of it, and it depends on which side you are to look foolish or to look Lieish !!!

Though they may not be true christians, if they would understand and follow bible, these problems wouldnot have arisen.



-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: Tom123
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 7:22am

In answer to your question "who is the terrorist- Muslim or Christian?", how about a third option- neither???

   A Muslim who is faithful to Islam would never attack someone unless if in self-defence and in war s/he would never murder civilians.

   A Christian who is faithful to the Gospel would never attack or seek to harm anyone, even if in self-defence, and would instead pray for their enemies and work for peace.

   The Bushes and bin Ladens are using religion to justify terrorism, imperialism, occupation and other forms of murder. Neither Christianity or Islam allow for the crimes they commit.

   Cristo Vive!

      - Tomasz

       



Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 8:57am

Tom123:

 "A Christian who is faithful to the Gospel would never attack or seek to harm anyone, even if in self-defence, and would instead pray for their enemies and work for peace."

That is the lamest and most wrongful answer you have said. I know many Christians who are "God fearing" but would take a persons life in a second if their life was in danger. Tom123 no offense because I don't know you in real life but you must be two things: 1) A wimp or 2) totally blind by ignorance. I remember in a previous thread I asked you would you be willing to take someones life to defend your family and you said you'd try to reason with someone or something along those lines. Although your answer is quite noble I still believe judging by your posts that your neo-altruist Christian thinking is not logical.

A Christian regardless whether he or she is quite religious/spiritual is still capable of committing evil and good, and murder people whether with evil or good (for defense) intent.

*Note: Tom you seem to be very good human being with a good heart and I admire your passion for good will. Perhaps I have a different perpspective on the issue of defense since I obviously grew up differently than you. I too cherish the life of others even if they are scum like terrorist however I believe as humans since we are instinctively selfish about our own life, should consider defending ourselves when our lives and the lives of our family is in danger. It is a misinterpretation to say Christians are taught to lay down their lives for their enemies. That is misinformation, not Christian. If anything if you are ignorant of what you say perhaps you are tappig into the selfishness of what you'll receive after death than the logic in this life.



Posted By: Chelle
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 10:11am
I think what Tom is trying to say (and I agree with him) is that if someone is committing evil acts, they are not TRULY Christian or Muslim.  They are not following the doctrine of the religion they allegedly support and therefore should not be considered members of that faith.


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 02 January 2008 at 2:38pm

Originally posted by Anatolian

Oscar you emphasize the word "Christian" when you speak of the West. As a
Christian who lives in the West I don't FEEL it's Christian at all. The
seperation of Church and State in Europe and America means religion is NOT
part of it's economic or political goals. Christian communities who are to this
day suffering under an Islamic regime are not heard yet Kosovo Albanians
are backed up by this "Christian" West. (By the way the Kosovo Albanians are
Muslims in case you didn't know. So are majority of Bosniaks who, with the
help of the West have an independent state.) Enough labeling NATO, The EU,
The US, Canada, and everybody who has one Christian more living in a
country that those policies are Christian. There not. Grow up and get
yourself an education. Try not to sound so foolish.

 

i didn't say the Wests leaders are Christians, I'M ONLY QUOTING WHAT THEY HAVE SAID.

SEPARATION OF NOTHING, CHRISTIANS ARE HIDING BEHIND DEMOCRACY TO COMMIT IMMORAL ACTS AROUND THE WORLD

Anatolia get yourself the truth



Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 03 January 2008 at 12:27am
Oscar, please read your post. Here I'll quote it again.

"but according to the Christian west..." I see what your doing, you want us
to make sure that the West is Christian. Subconsciously telling us that the
West's attacks are also Christian based. I reiterate, grow up.

The world has been and will always be ruled by greed. In order to feed
your greed you must make war, disease, destruction... in order to survive.
That is a fact. Christianity is timid. If it's been hijacked by these people it
is not the Bible, or Jesus, or the Saints, or the Pope, or the preacher it's
the actual individual who commits them. The war in Iraq has no basis in
Christianity. If the main objective was missionary work, evangelizing to
Muslims then I'll stand by your opinion. It's the complete opposite! It's a
rise in Islam, it's destruction to the indigenous Christian population
(Assyrian, Chaldeans, Armenians, Aramaics.) Nobody gained by this. No
Christian or Muslim only manufacturers of war machinery, oil companies,
and a selected few rulers of "The New World Order". The Pope and
countless other Christian leaders have protested (I already pointed this
example when Pope Benedict refused an audience with Rice.) Jewish
leaders have also been opposed to this.

"CHRISTIANS ARE HIDING BEHIND DEMOCRACY TO COMMIT IMMORAL
ACTS AROUND THE WORLD" Once again I remind you these people are
not Christian. This is where the problem is Oscar between my
understanding of one's religion and the way Muslims perceive an
individual. A Muslim believes if you are born a Muslim you die one. No
matter what. A Christian's point of view is this. You are born into a family
of Christians BUT your acts decide what you are. Means nothing to us if
your baptized or not it's how you treat others and how you live that
makes you a Christian. Not going to church once a year or on holidays
and a few days later committing the same sins. You can wear a cross
around your neck and quote Psalms all day long but that doesn't add up
to anything if your ACTS are deplorable.

Now I have explained this to you numerous times. If you care to
understand I'm glad if you will continue to generalize which you have
been doing since your first posts and replies here, then you have proven
your inability to comprehend a thing.


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 03 January 2008 at 12:51am
Originally posted by Tom123

In answer to your question "who is the terrorist- Muslim or Christian?", how about a third option- neither???

   A Muslim who is faithful to Islam would never attack someone unless if in self-defence and in war s/he would never murder civilians.

   A Christian who is faithful to the Gospel would never attack or seek to harm anyone, even if in self-defence, and would instead pray for their enemies and work for peace.

   The Bushes and bin Ladens are using religion to justify terrorism, imperialism, occupation and other forms of murder. Neither Christianity or Islam allow for the crimes they commit.

   Cristo Vive!

      - Tomasz

 

I like to agree with Tom.

Israfil: I know many Christians who are "God fearing" but would take a persons life in a second if their life was in danger.

That is for self defense which is acceptable in Islam, but as tom said, if a christian is truly god fearing he even can't do that. "If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer him the other" is the teaching of bible. neither Islam nor christianity advocates anarchy and killings without permitted resons.

So who are making all these troubles? they are truly not believers.... so religion is the solution to all these problems, but the policy makers seem to look for it somewhere else.....



-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 03 January 2008 at 12:54am
Israfil,

Concerning Tom's reaction to violence. He is right. If we were to live as
such it would truly be wonderful. Greatest example was Christ on the
cross when He forgave his tormentors for what they had done. Oh wait
you guys don't believe Jesus was nailed to a cross but another man
posing as Christ... A little dogmatic difference shouldn't belittle this
example

I wish I can say that I feel or act as Tom does. As much as I have tried to
do so in my life, to turn the other cheek, I somewhat resort back at times
to revengeful attacks. I place that blame on the environment where I grew
up. The household was pure bliss but outside the house I had to fend that
way because it was the only way to comeback home in one piece. Maybe
the fact that I grew up near the Mediterranean has much to explain for

Can the same be said about Islam though? Let's use a bit of common
sense here. How can religion spread within a generation from the Arabian
peninsula to the Taurus mountains of Turkey to the Atlantic shores of
Morocco? I doubt peace was the answer. And to nu001's comment about
how Muhammed only attacked those who attacked him first. I will quote a
few Koranic verses for you. If you can find any references Jesus made
along the same lines please do inform me.

1) "Fight (kill) them (non Muslims) and Allah will punish them by your
hands, cover them with shame." Surah 9:14

2) "O ye who believe! Fight the unbelievers...let them find firmness in you
and know that Allah is with those who fear Him." Sunah 9:12

3) "Strike terror onto the enemies of Allah and your enemies" Sunah 8:60

4) Al Bukhari Vol. 4:196 (Hadith) Mohammed: "I have been ordered to
fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped
but Allah."

Number 4 was one of many to be used in the context of war. Prime
example of this is because there are no more Jews or Christians in Saudi
Arabia. What more evidence is there. The Jews (Banu Ḳainuḳa, the Banu
Ḳuraiẓa, and the Banu al-Naḍir.) were large Jewish clans who were settled
in Medina and Mecca long before Islam arrived. Where are they now?
There were indigenous Christian and Jewish tribes in Arabia. They are no
longer there...


Posted By: Angela
Date Posted: 03 January 2008 at 1:27am
Actually, Anatolian, the Chaldean Christians still number 100,000 and have only recently had to flee Bagdhad. 

Estimates of the population of Saudi Arabia are said to have anywhere from 200,000 to 800,000 christians.  Its just impossible to know because they are non-citizens.

The Maronite Church, Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churches are all within Muslim dominated countries and have survived just fine. 

The Jews were dispersed over and over by all sorts of anti-Jewish groups.  There are only 14million worldwide.  That's hard to pin on one group of people.  Romans persecuted Jews, Catholics persecuted Jews, Crusaders, Invaders, Persians, Sultan's, Germans, Russians...

There is a group of nomads in the Saudi/Yemeni area that claim to be the descendants of the Sabians.  And there is a group in Yemen who claim to be the descendants of the Queen of Sheba (whom they name Bilquis, do not trust that spelling).

Now for your lovely quotes....you Evangelicals always love to take out of context.  Read the lines before 9:14.

YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

009.007
YUSUFALI: How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.
PICKTHAL: How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.
SHAKIR: How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

009.008
YUSUFALI: How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.
PICKTHAL: How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.
SHAKIR: How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors.

009.009
YUSUFALI: The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.
PICKTHAL: They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they are wont to do.
SHAKIR: They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that they do.

009.010
YUSUFALI: In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.
PICKTHAL: And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors.
SHAKIR: They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who go beyond the limits.

009.011
YUSUFALI: But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
PICKTHAL: But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
SHAKIR: But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.

009.012
YUSUFALI: But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.
PICKTHAL: And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
SHAKIR: And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.

009.013
YUSUFALI: Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
PICKTHAL: Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers
SHAKIR: What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

009.014
YUSUFALI: Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
PICKTHAL: Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
SHAKIR: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

009.015
YUSUFALI: And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
PICKTHAL: And He will remove the anger of their hearts. Allah relenteth toward whom He will. Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: And remove the rage of their hearts; and Allah turns (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.



Clearly they are talking about fighting those that made peace treaties and then broke them. 





-------------


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 04 January 2008 at 3:41pm

Anatolian

I AGREE A RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIAN IS BETTER THAN A BAD MUSLIM.

BUT WHY ARE THE RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIANS OF THE WORLD SO QUITE ABOUT THE LOSS OF MUSLIM LIVES AT THE HANDS OF OFFICIALLY CHRISTIAN COUNTRY LIKE THE USA.

ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THAT ACTUALITY THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE USA AND ITS LEADERS ARE NOT ACTUALLY CHRISTIAN, ITS ALL VERY CONFUSING.

 



Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 1:38am
Quiet? There are protests in every major cities of the world from Paris to
DC to London and Moscow. Where have you been? Someone locked you in
a cage in an underground section of Lahore or something? Do you not see
the protests around the world every time an American diplomat is sent on
a mission in Europe or South America or even Asia. I will not sit here and
type up reports of dates and times and how many people were involved in
a certain protest. If you do not see or read or refuse to do both then I
cannot help you my friend. You need to research this on your own
because if you keep coming back to me with points like this you will
make me believe that you have nothing else to add to this discussion and
your really wasting my time in trying to explain to you the OBVIOUS.

Tell me something Oscar, why are there no righteous Muslims out there
who speak of the constant plight of Indonesian Christians? Just a few
months back three Christian girls were on there way to school in a remote
part of the country when they were ambushed and had there heads cut
off? When the man on trial was found guilty he smiled and praised his
actions. Why was there no reaction from the Muslim authorities? Why
wasn't there any reaction by Muslims across the world the same way they
protested the Muhammed cartoons? Why was there no protests when that
Afghan man who decided to convert to Christianity and was imprisoned
by the authorities for doing so? Nobody said anything people just
demanded his execution... I can truly go on and on but I'm tired of
repeating these stories. Why aren't Christians in Egypt and basically any
Middle Eastern country not treated as equals.

As for Ms. Angela your wrong about all your points concerning the
indigenous Christians of these Muslim countries. Saudi Arabia has
Christian guest workers and they cannot practice at all. I'm talking about
INDIGENOUS Christians and Jews of Arabia? Your going to tell me there
never was? Somehow the "People of the Book" never made it to Arabia
because of some natural barrier?

Live in those countries for yourself and see what's going on don't quote
government reports issued by the actual state. While you sit in beautiful
Utah, there are millions of Christians around the world being persecuted
for there beliefs. Not only physically but in judicial systems in countries
like Turkey where in the late '60's they closed down all monasteries to
students who want to join the priesthood. And this is from a country that
wants to enter the EU, the "pride" of Muslim modernity. It's a joke. Visit
this website I encourage you. http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php

Angela the reason why these churches have survived was not because of a
benevolent Islamic state but because of extortion. The Coptic Church in
Egypt has paid billions to keep there shrines and churches safe from
complete destruction. If an Islamic dominated government surfaces in
many of these countries the last string will snap and were looking at what
happened in Arabia in the 7th century. Go live in Egypt and Algeria.
Jordan and Palestine. Ask the Christians there if they feel at home in there
own homes. Go ahead. Gain there trust and see what stories they have for
you. Don't go as a tourist they won't tell you a thing. They fear too much.

Oscar you ask me why some Christians are quiet about what's going on
with the situation of Muslims around the world? I ask you this why are
Muslims harassing there Christian neighbors in the Middle East? Africa?
Asia? Why won't the authorities do a THING about it? You answer this for
me and i'll give you an answer to all your questions. In the meantime stop
assuming things because there meaningless. An example: "BUT WHY ARE
THE RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIANS OF THE WORLD SO QUITE ABOUT THE LOSS
OF MUSLIM LIVES AT THE HANDS OF OFFICIALLY CHRISTIAN COUNTRY
LIKE THE USA."

The US from what I know, has no official religion. Check your facts.


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 07 January 2008 at 10:38pm

A true person of God regardless what Abrahamic faith they subscribe to do the right things and forbade the wrong things. As I was growing up when I read the passage of Jesus saying "turn the other cheek" I believe that the message was symbolic for not committing violent acts. However there is a difference with committing violent acts when someone wrongs you and self-defense. People obviously don't realize that we have a biological instinct in our bodies which is natural and animalistic to defend ourselves. Haven't you guys ever flinched when something almost hit you? The flinching is an instinct which is reactionary. Take it further haven't you seen people flinched throwing their arms in their air as if they're protecting their face? That is another instinct. Even people who are "brain dead" fight back.

So, why in the world would Jesus humans to not defend themselves in the midst of unjust actions against their person when God has given us these natural abilities? I believe that we all should do what is right and never committ violent acts. But what Tom was saying was naive. If my family was in danger and there was no possible way of reasoning with the intruder why would I endanger my life to be noble? It makes no sense. I know its off topic but I'm addressing Anatolian's comment.



Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 12:49am

Anatolian, thanks for such illustrious mail with a lots of anger and very less contents.

What are you trying to justify? Injustice on minorities are their in every country all over the world, name one where it is not. So does it justify, removing the palestinians from their homeland? killing people all over the world? Let the anti religious forces go back to their homes, world will be a better place in a day.

Then find peaceful ways of addressing the injustice issues in all countries. U will intrude and occupy my house and call me a terrorist !! that's ridiculous !! please don't talk nonsense.

There are more than 10 million coptic christians in the ME, bearing testimony that islam did allow them to practice their religion for 1400 years. We all know the histories of killing muslims and jews by the christians in all over europe. you in the west have started being civilized to allow the muslims practice religion in merely a century back. Thanks for learning at last. Probably you have manymore things to learn yet from these ancient civilizations, polish as you do, copyright as u r used to and sell it back to them in some civilized manner..... not in the uncivilized manner that you are doing at the moment in the name of civilization.



-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 3:17am

ANATOLIAN

LOOK AT THE FIGURES OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS CHRISTIANS HAVE KILLED UP TO I MILLION MUSLIM CIVILIANS THATS A FACT,I WOULD RATHER BE HARASSED THAN DEAD. HOW MANY CHRISTIANS HAVE DIED BY MUSLIM AGGRESSION IN THE LAST 10 YEARS.(MUSLIMS DEFENDING THERE INVADED COUNTRIES IS SELF DEFENSE)

YOU KEEP GIVING LONG AND IRRELEVANT SITUATIONS TO DISPROVE THE ABOVE, THE CHRISTIANS ARE JUST PLAYING LIP SERVICE TO THE IMMORALITY, NOTHING HAS CHANGED OR WILL CHANGE.

ISLAM AND THE QURAN RECOGNIZES AND ACCEPTS THAT CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM AND OTHER RELIGION CAME FROM GOD, THEREFORE THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS COULD NEVER JUSTIFY A "CRUSADE" AGAINST CHRISTIANS. 

CHRISTIANITY OFFICIALLY DOSE NOT ACCEPTS THAT ISLAM IS FROM GOD THATS WHY CHRISTIANS ARE INTOLERANT REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU SAY THE TRUTH IS IN YOUR ACTIONS

YOU KEEP GOING ON ABOUT HARASSMENT, TERRORISM LAWS IN THE WEST IS THE BIGGEST FORM OF ORGANIZED HARASSMENT CREATED FOR MUSLIMS, THE WEST HAS LEARNED ALOT FROM ISREAL.



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 3:56am
Oscar, using all capital letters in the whole post is not allowed it is considered in cyberspace as shouting 

Originally posted by OSCAR

LOOK AT THE FIGURES OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS CHRISTIANS HAVE KILLED UP TO I MILLION MUSLIM CIVILIANS THATS A FACT.

Who are these christians may I ask? If you say americans or britians or even australia and europe in general, then you will be mistaken.

YOU KEEP GIVING LONG AND IRRELEVANT SITUATIONS TO DISPROVE THE ABOVE, THE CHRISTIANS ARE JUST PLAYING LIP SERVICE TO THE IMMORALITY, NOTHING HAS CHANGED OR WILL CHANGE.

Actually I think Anatolian gave a good counter active response.

ISLAM AND THE QURAN RECOGNIZES AND ACCEPTS THAT CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM AND OTHER RELIGION CAME FROM GOD, THEREFORE THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS COULD NEVER JUSTIFY A "CRUSADE" AGAINST CHRISTIANS.


Then tell me why muslim extremists/fundamentalists are killing iraqi citizens christians and threaten them with their lives if they don't leave? Oh that's right they're not muslims because muslims don't kill oh well guess that can be said about christians who may kill and have killed in the past

CHRISTIANITY OFFICIALLY DOSE NOT ACCEPTS THAT ISLAM IS FROM GOD THATS WHY CHRISTIANS ARE INTOLERANT REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU SAY THE TRUTH IS IN YOUR ACTIONS.

Both religions claim to be the only truth & only way, so in truth both are intolerant of each other in some way, regardless of the tolerance going on and talks of unity.

You really need to separate what is christianity or who and what is just plain secularism and western. You cannot just go around and say in general christians are killing, because the question remains who is christian?



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 4:06am
Originally posted by nu001

We all know the histories of killing muslims and jews by the christians in all over europe.

Has europe proclaimed to be christian?

you in the west have started being civilized to allow the muslims practice religion in merely a century back.

Are we talking about christians or the west here?

"you in the west" who do you mean by that statement, christians? or people in general which by the way will include all different religions, not just christians.



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 4:51am
Originally posted by OSCAR

How is it that openly Committed Christian leaders (Blair Bush, and the rest, Australia Europe) and Christian solders backed buy money and support from Officially Christian countries kill 1 million innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan not be classed as Christian Terrorist when they kill civilians in an unjustified and immoral invasion.

"Offically christian countries" ?? Where do you get that from? what are these christian countries? 

Elsewhere you mentioned, (i think it was you) "the christian west" - The West is not christian! Just as the East is not muslim!

As for being classed as Christian terrorist it cannot simply because countries are not christian nor the west cannot be called that either, despite leaders being christian & majority of citizens may be christian. If the USA has a muslim president (infact isn't Barack muslim - can't remember) I suppose then that the US will be considered a muslim country then
 

I have not come to know of any Christian groups marching against deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, if there have been i would like to know. 


Where were you when the world, when many countries marched and protested against the war in iraq ? See you cannot tell who is christian and who is not, and you talk about countries and the west being christian, well by your view then the marches and protest then was christian! wake up don't tell us that you don't know of any christian groups marching



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 1:19pm

By your logic the middle east is christians and the USA is muslim

 



Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 1:24pm
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by OSCAR

How is it that openly Committed Christian leaders (Blair Bush, and the rest, Australia Europe) and Christian solders backed buy money and support from Officially Christian countries kill 1 million innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan not be classed as Christian Terrorist when they kill civilians in an unjustified and immoral invasion.

"Offically christian countries" ?? Where do you get that from? what are these christian countries? 

Elsewhere you mentioned, (i think it was you) "the christian west" - The West is not christian! Just as the East is not muslim!

As for being classed as Christian terrorist it cannot simply because countries are not christian nor the west cannot be called that either, despite leaders being christian & majority of citizens may be christian. If the USA has a muslim president (infact isn't Barack muslim - can't remember) I suppose then that the US will be considered a muslim country then
 

I have not come to know of any Christian groups marching against deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, if there have been i would like to know. 


Where were you when the world, when many countries marched and protested against the war in iraq ? See you cannot tell who is christian and who is not, and you talk about countries and the west being christian, well by your view then the marches and protest then was christian! wake up don't tell us that you don't know of any christian groups marching

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAY THEY ARE CHRISTIAN NOT ME.

WIKIPEDIA

The United States government does not audit Americans' religious beliefs.[140] In a private survey conducted in 2001, 76.5% of American adults identified themselves as Christian, down from 86.4% in 1990. Protestant denominations accounted for 52%, while Roman Catholics, at 24.5%, were the largest individual denomination.[141] A different study describes white evangelicals, 26.3% of the population, as the country's largest religious cohort;[142] evangelicals of all races are estimated at 30–35%.[143] The total reporting non-Christian religions in 2001 was 3.7%, up from 3.3% in 1990. The leading non-Christian faiths were Judaism (1.4%), Islam (0.5%), Buddhism (0.5%), Hinduism (0.4%), and Unitarian Universalism (0.3%). Between 1990 and 2001, the number of Muslims and Buddhists more than doubled. From 8.2% in 1990, 14.1% in 2001 described themselves as agnostic, atheist, or simply having no religion,[141] still significantly less than in other postindustrial countries such as Britain (2005:44%) and Sweden (2001:69%, 2005:85%).[144]

THE SAME APPLIES TO UK EUROPE AND AUSTRALIA,

 I CANT BELIEVE YOUR TRYING TO SAY THE USA PEOPLE AND THERE SOLDERS ARE SECULAR AND NOT CHRISTIAN, SECULAR IS NOT A RELIGION.

AND I'M NOT DEFENDING THE BEHAVIOR OF A HAND FULL OF EXTREMISTS WHO ARE POINTING THERE ANGER AT IRAQI CHRISTIANS

NO BARAKA IS A CHRISTIAN HE SAID FAMUSLY I WILL BOMB PAKISTAN IF THEY CANT GET RID OF THEIR EXTREAMISTS. 



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 5:37pm

Just because some countries seem by statistic polls show a large number in a particular religion doesn't make it that country offically such and such.

In south american countries there is many christians does that make south americans christians or countries offically christian.

I struggle with the question, what makes an amercian, what are the values or australian in my case. I can't answer it satisfactory because many things make up what is an australian or what is the australian values. What do I do with muslims (and those who convert to), athiests, jews, zoroastrains, aboriginals, buddhists WHO are born, raisesd, live here ?? Are they christian ? NO! Do I refer to them as christian? NO!

Those who say to muslims go home, well they are home!

Besides the UK/USA/Europe and here and anywhere else that may, tend to have similar things, so if I rattle off something of the same am i an european or amercian then. To be honest with you Australia is the same with Christianity dominating but it doesn't make it offically christian, I myself cannot see it that way because before Britian landed on the shores and colonised it with its so called criminals, the many aborignals were here first with their language and beliefs and the north and south aboriginee differred also.

Australia and USA & other western countries are multicultural now with many religions/beliefs. If you go by those statistic of nationality, i wonder what the dominating nationality is by your view/logic that is what that country is.

I guess Brazilians are portugues since they speak that language. Or spanish people are mexican since they too speak spanish.

Western countries have separation of church and state so it cannot be identified offically of such and such religion despite many people identifying themselves with such and such.

Just imagine Australia being offically recognised as a Christian country what will that do with or for the aboriginals, they already suffered enough. At least the aborignals have the decency to refer others as white man/people. 



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 5:46pm

The reason why there is labels for muslim terrorists is because the terrorists themselves IDENTIFY themselves as muslim and supposedly following islam. The west didn't conjure up that term as far as I know. I myself go by what the terrorists say who they are and i'm sure others do to.

 

 



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by OSCAR

By your logic the middle east is christians and the USA is muslim

did i say that the middle east is christian? I stated by your logic that if america had a muslim leader then it would be a muslim country, AS you say that Bush is christian so america is christian.



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 6:44pm

The joke of the day:

Anatolian

I AGREE A RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIAN IS BETTER THAN A BAD MUSLIM.



Posted By: Anatolian
Date Posted: 08 January 2008 at 10:54pm
First off I never made that statement Israfil, that was posted by Oscar.

Secondly, Oscar you claim that the West killed off 10 million Muslims
within a 100 years. I'm not denying this fact or arguing it. If they were
killed because they were Muslim that consists of genocide. Are you
claiming genocide here? This is a serious charge and if you do prove so
then I wonder why it hasn't been brought to the attention of the world
court in The Hague.

Just to see if this matches your theory, the murder of 10 million Russian
citizens of the Soviet Union, obviously most belonging to the Orthodox
Church, to be acts of genocide committed against Christians BY
Christians? After all Stalin did study for the priesthood that would make
him Christian right? Hitler killing off 6 million Jews not including Catholic
and Protestant priests, gypsies, non jewish Poles, homosexuals, and
mentally challenged patients. Are those crimes against humanity
committed by Christians against Christians? Does your argument fit here?

Nuoo2 you believe I come here just to attack the Ummah. Well you tend to
ignore my other postings. What I was bringing up was a response to
Oscar's incredible claims of Christian "terrorism" and "barbarity" I mean
look at the title of this topic. It speaks for itself. Just as you have a right
to defend your beliefs so do I. He has yet to find a New Testament verse
that backs up these barbaric acts by the West. I have replied to him
countless times that these are based on greed and that millions of
Christians suffer from both Muslim and Western leaders. He claims that
the West is Christian yet many European countries and America are for
abortion and the use of condoms something in which the Church doesn't
approve. He brings up the fact that the West is practically 80% Christian
but he ignores the fact that of those Christians living in the West less than
10 % go to Church (That's an average combining all majority Christian
countries in Europe and the Americas.) Is that truly a "Christian" West? It's
not to me and it's not to those. The West is SECULAR. It has no official
religious views.


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 12:49am
Originally posted by Angel

As for being classed as Christian terrorist it cannot simply because countries are not christian nor the west cannot be called that either, despite leaders being christian & majority of citizens may be christian.

And the highest medals given by these governments to their soldiers are likes of Victoria Crosses, Distinguished service Crosses
for Army, Air Force , Navy and Marines, Angel why would any Jew or Muslim would like to carry that over his heart and why a non christen establishment would go for the crosses?
Oh pleeeease Angel let go of PC! The queen is Head Church of England and every office holder  takes oath holding on a Bible!
Originally posted by Angel

If the USA has a muslim president (infact isn't Barack muslim - can't remember) I suppose then that the US will be considered a muslim country then
Barack is not a Muslim, he has gone out and flaunted his church UCoC attendances to dilute the stigma of his father's given name that is Hussain being his  middle name!
Hypothetically I can tell you if Barack was a Muslim and then gets elected the veto pen of  the POTUS will make all the difference!


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 1:07am
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by nu001

We all know the histories of killing muslims and jews by the christians in all over europe.

Has europe proclaimed to be christian?

you in the west have started being civilized to allow the muslims practice religion in merely a century back.

Are we talking about christians or the west here?

"you in the west" who do you mean by that statement, christians? or people in general which by the way will include all different religions, not just christians.

Has anyone ever claimed ever to be a terrorist? Does any criminal claims to be one? So what does matter is the actions.

What is europes religious identity? Secularism does not kill religious identity like socialism. And please stop carrying dual identity for convenience. When it's needed to be cristian you be in a minute and when it is inconvenient to face truth then use the other. But we all know what europe is !! don't we? I am not sure if anyone practices christianity there, but I judge europe from it's policies and actions beyond their borders.

I didn't know if other religions are able to dictate policies in the west. I have explained the religious issue with western government in one of my previous posts.



-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 3:44am

Angel

again i cant believe you are trying to justify that the USA is not a Christian country.

iv shown you the facts above and you still cant accept the truth.

answer me this if a Christian American lives in Saudi Arabia dose he become a Saudi and dose his religion just vanishes. 

also if i identify myself as a whale dose that make me one.

 



Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 3:57am

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by Angel

As for being classed as Christian terrorist it cannot simply because countries are not christian nor the west cannot be called that either, despite leaders being christian & majority of citizens may be christian.

And the highest medals given by these governments to their soldiers are likes of Victoria Crosses, Distinguished service Crosses
for Army, Air Force , Navy and Marines, Angel why would any Jew or Muslim would like to carry that over his heart and why a non christen establishment would go for the crosses?

Crosses were around for sometime before Christianity.

Oh pleeeease Angel let go of PC!

let go of the pc, well what about you  you're getting down to the nitty gritty about crosses

Thank you and to the other person who also mentioned about Barack. just couldn't remember at the time.



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Angel
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 4:26am
Originally posted by OSCAR

Angel

again i cant believe you are trying to justify that the USA is not a Christian country.

iv shown you the facts above and you still cant accept the truth.

I never denied them! I accept them but you cannot use it to say that a country is offically such and such - christianity, i will use since you are stuck on that. 

Oscar go and use nationality statistics instead.



-------------
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~


Posted By: Sign*Reader
Date Posted: 09 January 2008 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by Angel

As for being classed as Christian terrorist it cannot simply because countries are not christian nor the west cannot be called that either, despite leaders being christian & majority of citizens may be christian.

And the highest medals given by these governments to their soldiers are likes of Victoria Crosses, Distinguished service Crosses
for Army, Air Force , Navy and Marines, Angel why would any Jew or Muslim would like to carry that over his heart and why a non christen establishment would go for the crosses?

Crosses were around for sometime before Christianity.

Oh pleeeease Angel let go of PC!

let go of the pc, well what about you  you're getting down to the nitty gritty about crosses

Thank you and to the other person who also mentioned about Barack. just couldn't remember at the time.


Now are you going back to stone age medals?
Aren't you running out of good argument ?
If we go before Christianity time frame , isn't the altercation moot?
BTW you know what PC stands for ?


-------------
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.


Posted By: matt5058
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 12:23am

I haven't read the whole thread but this is a response to the original poster.

Christian and non-Christian Americans, or at least a large portion of them, don't want to believe that our government and our leaders would engage in an immoral and unjust war. Many of them buy into the demonization of Islam and Islamic countries and actually believe we are keeping the United States safe and helping out the Iraqi people.

The Bush administration, aided by the media, has done a great job of turning Islam into the new communism in order to justify our massive defense budget, from which companies like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Exxon, etc. gain billions and billions in profits. The lives of millions of Iraqis and Afghans mean nothing to the men who benefit from these wars.

As a former marine who spent time in Iraq and now someone who considers myself a humanitarian, I am very opposed to the war in Iraq and our foreign policy in general. I find it very hypocritical, in violation of human rights to a whole new extreme, and bordering on genocidal.



-------------
'Words without actions are the assassins of idealism.'


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 1:54am

Well said Matt5058. Does this number signify anything? or just nothing.

Your opinion and actions definitely are in a very minority group in US. most of the people who have similar opinions are not doing enough. Bush would not have been ellected if the majority people felt the same.

I know US/Europe are secular states. Which respects all religion (orally) and in state legislation/policies violet all religion (gayrights, same sex marriage, abortions, social norms etc) it is more of eithistic. As of today, secularism is same as eithism.

So eithism is standing against all religions, not only Islam. They think they have christianity and others in control, so it is a battle for controlling Islam. Unfortunately as a muslim i understand my faith and the people of my faith quiet a lot, and i am sure that the situation with islam will never be same as others, it is too shalow to put it in line with socialism. Islam is deeper than one can imagine in the west.

I appreciate your belief and what you stand for.



-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: matt5058
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 7:42am
Originally posted by nu001

Well said Matt5058. Does this number signify anything? or just nothing.

Your opinion and actions definitely are in a very minority group in US. most of the people who have similar opinions are not doing enough. Bush would not have been ellected if the majority people felt the same.

I know US/Europe are secular states. Which respects all religion (orally) and in state legislation/policies violet all religion (gayrights, same sex marriage, abortions, social norms etc) it is more of eithistic. As of today, secularism is same as eithism.

So eithism is standing against all religions, not only Islam. They think they have christianity and others in control, so it is a battle for controlling Islam. Unfortunately as a muslim i understand my faith and the people of my faith quiet a lot, and i am sure that the situation with islam will never be same as others, it is too shalow to put it in line with socialism. Islam is deeper than one can imagine in the west.

I appreciate your belief and what you stand for.

 

the number is just something I have used for screennames in the past on other forums and messageboards, no real significance...

thank you



-------------
'Words without actions are the assassins of idealism.'


Posted By: Israfil
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 8:37am
What the hell is eithism?


Posted By: nu001
Date Posted: 11 February 2008 at 11:39pm

Originally posted by Israfil

What the hell is eithism?

 

Sorry, I made a mistake in spelling it; Aethist / Aethism.

Who doesnot believe in existance of God/creator. The church of Scientology in US also belongs to similar ideology.



-------------
"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"


Posted By: OSCAR
Date Posted: 12 February 2008 at 2:33am

Christan's of the USA and the wold are being lead by the Jewish American Lobby.

a fact any American politician will tell you, one of the reasons of the Iraq invasion was to destroy Israels enemies, and in the eyes of The isreali Jews all Muslims are there enemies, so the USA dose its killing for them.

thats not to say that the USA holds a different views from the Israeli Jews its a convenient partnership for now.

 



Posted By: robin
Date Posted: 09 June 2008 at 3:41pm
[QUOTE=OSCAR]

How many Christians civilians got killed in the west by Iraq's and Afghans before Iraq and Afghanistan were bombed and lost over 1 million civilians(UK Medical Lancet Report)?

How is it that openly Committed Christian leaders (Blair Bush, and the rest, Australia Europe) and Christian solders backed buy money and support from Officially Christian countries kill 1 million innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan not be classed as Christian Terrorist when they kill civilians in an unjustified and immoral invasion. 

Is it Because solders who drop and fire bombs from such great distances somehow feel detached from there actions, and as they seldom see the death and destruction caused, they hold no responsibility nor dose those who gave them the order for the killing.

 Yet its the Muslims that are continually labeled with "Islamic Terrorists" by the west, when a handful of Muslims do something wrong, it seems this is a war on truth.

When dose "following orders" take away the responsibility for an individuals actions, "democracies" have become a very convenient way for an individual not to think about what they are responsible for. Everyone is just following orders and the people at the very top make the excuse that, "this is what you the people of the country wanted because they voted for me".   

i would love to know how Christian's feel regarding the above as they are always advocating that The Bible teaches Love and Peace. Muslims living in the west never agree with killing Innocent civilians and we have marched and protested to show it. I have not come to know of any Christian groups marching against deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, if there have been i would like to know. 

[/QUOTE]
 
 
The above shows the thoses who do such things ARE NOT CHRISTIANS AND NEVER HAVE BEEN!!!
 
They are servents of the Devil who uses them as his agents to hide what true Christianity is so it cannot be seen by the people in general, which in turn gets Christians a bad name, when IN FACT as the Bible shows they are:-
 
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.
 
2 Thessalonians 2:9
But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents
 
John 8:44
YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].
 
 
They are liars and at time go to war with each other and kill those who claim to be fellow 'Christains':-
 
1 John 4:20
If anyone makes the statement: "I love God," and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen.
 
1 John 3:10
The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Everyone who does not carry on righteousness does not originate with God, neither does he who does not love his brother.. . 
 
1 John 3:15
Everyone who hates his brother is a manslayer, and YOU know that no manslayer has everlasting life remaining in him. . 
 

 

PLEASE DO NOT CONFUSE CHRISTIANITY AND  THE PROPHET JESUS WITH WHAT THE ANGLO-AMERICAN WORLD POWERS DO, FOR THEY SERVE THE INTRESTS OF THE DEVIL ALONG WITH ALL REST OF WARMUNGERING WICKED MANMADE POWERS!  

 
AS GOD AND JESUS HATE THEM!!



Print Page | Close Window