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islamispeace
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bullet Posted: 12 August 2007 at 4:23pm
"Also, what kind of transgression is deserving of eternal torture?"

Well, materialism is one which comes to mind.    Just a joke. 

But seriously, it is one sin which is very much hated by God. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Mateeri-al-ist
 
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bullet Posted: 12 August 2007 at 4:44pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

"Also, what kind of transgression is deserving of eternal torture?"

Well, materialism is one which comes to mind.    Just a joke. 

But seriously, it is one sin which is very much hated by God. 

Were you joking or not? If it is a "sin which is very much hated by God" then isn't it a transgression deserving of eternal torture?

I have little over twenty years of life experience which has led me to decide that materialism is just fine. Am I therefore deserving of eternal torture were I to die now? Is my misguided and ill-informed view to be punished so severely?

Other humans make other decisions which lead to millions of deaths. They are flawed, they have irrational emotions affecting them. It is, surely, utter nonsense and dangerous barbarism to say they are deserving of eternal torture.

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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 13 August 2007 at 12:51am

Materialist:

What you seem to be saying, in essence, is that you don't find it morally repugnant because the God of your holy texts tells you not to. Is that not a fair characterization of your answer there? Do you have no independent moral sense of your own?

To me, it is a wicked, evil deity that allows for an imperfect human who has made imperfect choices and has imperfect feelings to suffer eternally.

You are terribly misunderstanding my position and no, that is not the correct characterization. The idea here is not morally repugnant because the idea of hell is the recompensation for moral choice we do in this physical life. All moral actions are not equal and thus are subject to judgement. The reality of heaven and hell in the Qur'an are used to show the inevitability of our great deeds or our misdeeds. Is it a lawful world to allow some murderer who, aware of his/her actions go on murdering without some form of punishment?

Again the idea of eternal torture/or eternal bliss stems from the non-existence of time. As philosophers in ancient times have noted that time is measured by motion and since, the spiritual realm  is not subjected to neither motion nor change it is thus infinite. What we may think a lifetime here is perhaps a second there we don't truly know but I know that the Qur'an provides a foundation on ethics.

Why can't the all-powerful deity zap those 'sinner' souls (like, presumably, my soul) out of existence at death, rather than keep them alive, fully aware that they will suffer eternally?

I'm not an all-knowledgable creature so I cannot answer this in a way that would suit you. At the same time I can say why doesn't God make square circles a logical reality? These questions for now remain unanswered.

You can't be sincere in thinking hell is no worse than "being away from God the Creator". I think you might want to retract that, seriously.

I am an atheist, which means that you probably consider me "away from God the Creator". I am not in torment or fire.

This comment was made in the spiritual metaphorical sense not the actual sense. Hell ultimately represents being away from the "sight" of God. Just that alone is torment and really fire and pain is an additive of that suffering that is all what I meant.

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bullet Posted: 13 August 2007 at 4:53am
Originally posted by Israfil

Materialist:

What you seem to be saying, in essence, is that you don't find it morally repugnant because the God of your holy texts tells you not to. Is that not a fair characterization of your answer there? Do you have no independent moral sense of your own?

To me, it is a wicked, evil deity that allows for an imperfect human who has made imperfect choices and has imperfect feelings to suffer eternally.

You are terribly misunderstanding my position and no, that is not the correct characterization. The idea here is not morally repugnant because the idea of hell is the recompensation for moral choice we do in this physical life.

Firstly, "the idea of hell"? Why do you say "idea" now?

Eternal torture does not become any less evil if it is retribution for a wrong that's been done. We have moral feelings and statements about anything, any state of affairs. You clearly don't think eternal torture is barbaric and the very worst notion ever to be imagined. I would never love or forgive a deity that allowed there to be a place/dimension where eternal torture happens. That deity would be a primitive and evil entity.

All moral actions are not equal and thus are subject to judgement. The reality of heaven and hell in the Qur'an are used to show the inevitability of our great deeds or our misdeeds. Is it a lawful world to allow some murderer who, aware of his/her actions go on murdering without some form of punishment?

No. Murderers should be punished, incapacitated and deterred. What's that got to do with eternal torture?

Again the idea of eternal torture/or eternal bliss stems from the non-existence of time. 

Perpetual state of suffering - a one-moment state of suffering.. whatever. It doesn't change it, does it? It's silly and barbaric sadism.

Answer this: What is the purpose of the eternal existence of a soul in 'hell'?

What we may think a lifetime here is perhaps a second there we don't truly know but I know that the Qur'an provides a foundation on ethics.

I wouldn't want to get my ethics from the Qur'an, based on what you've told me. Luckily I don't have to. Nor do I have to get my ethics from the Bible - which is where the Christians think a solid foundation of ethics comes from - nor any other "holy book". My moral feelings just seem to be there, natural. Even away from the irrational feelings that are 'morals', the rational case for 'hell' being primitive needless harm is obvious.

Why can't the all-powerful deity zap those 'sinner' souls (like, presumably, my soul) out of existence at death, rather than keep them alive, fully aware that they will suffer eternally?

I'm not an all-knowledgable creature so I cannot answer this in a way that would suit you. At the same time I can say why doesn't God make square circles a logical reality? These questions for now remain unanswered.

Are you allowed to have an opinion of your own on this? Don't you think, based on what you do know now, that God should zap those hell-bound souls out of existence, rather than let them pointlessly suffer?

You can't be sincere in thinking hell is no worse than "being away from God the Creator". I think you might want to retract that, seriously.

I am an atheist, which means that you probably consider me "away from God the Creator". I am not in torment or fire.

This comment was made in the spiritual metaphorical sense not the actual sense. Hell ultimately represents being away from the "sight" of God. Just that alone is torment and really fire and pain is an additive of that suffering that is all what I meant.

As I said, I am an atheist. Am I not "away from the 'sight' of God"? I don't think you have a single thing to base your statement that such a situation is torment. Or am I in "spiritual metaphorical" torment?

As for my personal opinion on 'hell': it seems to me that hell is a relic of the human species' most primitive urges to see their enemies suffer. The hope of somehow surviving death is made even more attractive with a 'heaven' and the thought that the disbelievers/your enemies will be suffering greatly. It's a sadistic primitive kind of 'ha, see! ha!'. All totally made-up by silly humans of course.

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aka2x2
 
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bullet Posted: 13 August 2007 at 11:17am

Mateer-al-ist,

 

Muslims, by definition, have accepted that there is a God, Mohammad was a messenger sent by this God and the message he brought was the Quran. We did not invent or define the nature of God, nor did we choose what God should tell us, nor did we choose the method and the person He chose to deliver His message. Therefore, we have no knowledge about Heaven and Hell except what God chose to reveal to us in the Quran. This Book is available to all to read and make choices for themselves (as you have done).

 

The Quran tells us Heaven and Hell are eternal and Muslims accept this fact. If the idea is repugnant to you, no Muslim can help you. Muslims did not and do not have a say in the matter; God did not put it to a vote.

 

We can try to explain our understanding of the Word; we cannot change it to suit your sensibilities.


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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 13 August 2007 at 12:43pm

Firstly, "the idea of hell"? Why do you say "idea" now?

I call them "ideas" because we all have this vision on what Hell or Heaven is like when in reality we may be wrong. Fire to us may not be like fire in Hell, but more of an metaphorical sense of torment and pain however you may want to double check an Imam on the physical characteristics of Heaven and Hell.

Eternal torture does not become any less evil if it is retribution for a wrong that's been done.

Why do you call being in Hell torture? In our idea it may be torture but in the mind of God it is something else. Your interpretation of what Hell is obviously is nothing more than a subjective claim and really, you cannot prove that Hell is immoral. You have not provided any solid ethical claim that serving in Hell is immoral. Before you make a claim in saying Hell is an immoral place provide a solid claim that states that Hell is immoral. If the concept of Hell is to recompensate the wicked hos is it immoral?

We have moral feelings and statements about anything, any state of affairs. You clearly don't think eternal torture is barbaric and the very worst notion ever to be imagined.

Allow me to show my reductio ad Absurdum in that, you are like above, claiming that Hell is immoral without providing a solid defense on why Hell is immoral. Again, if you take into consideration that Hell serves those who commit great crimes why is the sentence and what it entails immoral? Provide proof. To say Hell is evil because it is torturous is not enough to make a solid claim on your position. Simply saying Hell is barbaric is also insufficient in your claim. I have debated better argumentative athiest.

I would never love or forgive a deity that allowed there to be a place/dimension where eternal torture happens. That deity would be a primitive and evil entity.

Another subjective claim without merit......

No. Murderers should be punished, incapacitated and deterred. What's that got to do with eternal torture

How is Hell not a punishment? That is the whole idea! Again don't confuse Hell with torture just because what you read is, in your mind torture. Take into consideration of the theology. You assume Hell is torture based on your idea of retribution. The theological concept of retribution is different than contemporary thought you must keep that in mind. You call this primitive? Frankly, I find it primitive for ancient human conquerors to skin and boil their victims alive simply for not serving in their empire primitive [See Genghis Khan]. Hell is also a place where wicked individuals are incapacitated both spiritually and physically what is your point?

Answer this: What is the purpose of the eternal existence of a soul in 'hell'?

Wow this question is borderline dumb in a way. I just explained to you that according to theology the spiritual dimension is absent of time which is a state of reality. It is such a reality that extends from Divine Emanation. Meaning, since God is not subject to motion, time, and space so to the reality that extends from divine emanation.

My moral feelings just seem to be there, natural. Even away from the irrational feelings that are 'morals', the rational case for 'hell' being primitive needless harm is obvious.

Another ignorant comment. Inital moral development is 90% societal [parental figures, extended family, television etc-but usually is developed by direct contact from a parental figure or figures] the other 5% is innate which comes from the faculties of your brain, particularly in various regions where mental processes occur the frontal lobe I suspect is one area where moral judgement may come from. The other 5% is simply developed from adulthood. Of course these percentages may vary but this is to show you that moral judgement is not innate. A baby is not born a moral creature and therefore, is neither good or bad nor is cognizant of both qualities. I find your classification rather unsupported.

Are you allowed to have an opinion of your own on this? Don't you think, based on what you do know now, that God should zap those hell-bound souls out of existence, rather than let them pointlessly suffer?

Yes I have an opinion and yes I also know that, while God can "zap evildoers out of hell" I also know that he can make square circles a logical reality in our minds but this has not come to pass.

As I said, I am an atheist. Am I not "away from the 'sight' of God"? I don't think you have a single thing to base your statement that such a situation is torment. Or am I in "spiritual metaphorical" torment?

FFS I'm referring to being in Hell. It represents being away from the sight of God. I mentioned that the pain and the fire and all of what the Qur'an describes may serve as a metaphorical basis of spiritual agony being away from God however I'm not at the liberity to say that this is universal this is my personal philosophica view. As far as your question on whether you are tormented that is a question you alone can answer. I do not know you. I also cannot judged you so if you're looking for me to say "yes your hellbound" forget it.

As for my personal opinion on 'hell': it seems to me that hell is a relic of the human species' most primitive urges to see their enemies suffer. The hope of somehow surviving death is made even more attractive with a 'heaven' and the thought that the disbelievers/your enemies will be suffering greatly. It's a sadistic primitive kind of 'ha, see! ha!'. All totally made-up by silly humans of course.

Very childish....

Me thinks Materialist just wants to argue his poorly defended position.

 

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bullet Posted: 13 August 2007 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by aka2x2

Mateer-al-ist,

 

Muslims, by definition, have accepted that there is a God, Mohammad was a messenger sent by this God and the message he brought was the Quran. We did not invent or define the nature of God, nor did we choose what God should tell us, nor did we choose the method and the person He chose to deliver His message.

 

I presumed that muslims are still open to discussion about their beliefs and maybe even willing to contemplate the possibility that they are totally wrong about reality.

 

 Therefore, we have no knowledge about Heaven and Hell except what God chose to reveal to us in the Quran.

 

And my question was asking what you thought about it. I wanted independent opinions, not "God's" opinion. Here's an opportunity to answer the question(s). Have you no moral outrage that certain people will face eternal never ever ever ending torture? What do you think Allah's purpose might be for those souls in 'hell'? Why does Allah not sound to you like an evil tyrant?

 

The Quran tells us Heaven and Hell are eternal and Muslims accept this fact. If the idea is repugnant to you, no Muslim can help you.
 

 

I hear a lot of moral statements from muslims. A popular one in today's world from muslims and non-muslims alike is how 'wrong' the US action in Iraq is/was. However wrong that war is, Allah's after-death policies to me are infinitely worse - infinitely more evil than anything the US has ever done.

 

Muslims did not and do not have a say in the matter; God did not put it to a vote.

 

All the more reason to explain how he's not a brutal dictator by telling me why you yourself think it's fine to continually punish forever.

We can try to explain our understanding of the Word; we cannot change it to suit your sensibilities.

As I said, I hope you're still open to discussion. I'm sure you wouldn't want to admit that you will never change your faith in the book no matter what you learn.

 

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bullet Posted: 13 August 2007 at 1:16pm
Originally posted by Israfil

Eternal torture does not become any less evil if it is retribution for a wrong that's been done.

Why do you call being in Hell torture?

That's what I've been led to believe. You yourself don't seem to doubt that hell is torture/torment.

You have not provided any solid ethical claim that serving in Hell is immoral. Provide proof. 

My questions, I think you'll notice, have been about moral feelings. Moral feelings are largely irrational (or a-rational I suppose). I don't have any 'proof' that eternal hell is immoral - there isn't really such a thing as 'immoral' except our feelings towards things. I suppose the amount of suffering involved in eternal torture is what makes it so repulsive an idea. Can you prove that hell is morally acceptable? No.

If you don't have a problem with your God's hell, I wonder if you have a problem (affective aversion) with murder? Murder is nowhere near as morally unacceptable - and causes no where near as much suffering - as allowing for the existence of eternal pain (of whatever kind).

I have debated better argumentative athiest.

Well, you can't know how 'good' I am at arguing in general, especially in what's essentially an issue of moral feeling. Quite a strange thing to include in your reply. Why did I need to know that?

I would never love or forgive a deity that allowed there to be a place/dimension where eternal torture happens. That deity would be a primitive and evil entity.

Another subjective claim without merit......

Yes, all moral statements are subjective claims and can be said to have no merit.

No. Murderers should be punished, incapacitated and deterred. What's that got to do with eternal torture

How is Hell not a punishment? That is the whole idea!

Punishment on Earth (reality) means temporary punishment.

Again don't confuse Hell with torture just because what you read is, in your mind torture. Take into consideration of the theology. You assume Hell is torture based on your idea of retribution. The theological concept of retribution is different than contemporary thought you must keep that in mind.

I am not a theologian so perhaps you could explain why it is incorrect to think of Hell as torture or retribution the way we normally think of it.

You call this primitive? Frankly, I find it primitive for ancient human conquerors to skin and boil their victims alive simply for not serving in their empire primitive [See Genghis Khan]. Hell is also a place where wicked individuals are incapacitated both spiritually and physically what is your point?

My point, as I think I've made clear, is that hell is a place where "wicked" individuals suffer forever and ever - for no apparent reason.

Answer this: What is the purpose of the eternal existence of a soul in 'hell'?

Wow this question is borderline dumb in a way. I just explained to you that according to theology the spiritual dimension is absent of time which is a state of reality. It is such a reality that extends from Divine Emanation. Meaning, since God is not subject to motion, time, and space so to the reality that extends from divine emanation.

I don't think any of that made sense. Care to give it another go?

My moral feelings just seem to be there, natural. Even away from the irrational feelings that are 'morals', the rational case for 'hell' being primitive needless harm is obvious.

Another ignorant comment. Inital moral development is 90% societal [parental figures, extended family, television etc-but usually is developed by direct contact from a parental figure or figures] the other 5% is innate which comes from the faculties of your brain, particularly in various regions where mental processes occur the frontal lobe I suspect is one area where moral judgement may come from. The other 5% is simply developed from adulthood. Of course these percentages may vary but this is to show you that moral judgement is not innate. A baby is not born a moral creature and therefore, is neither good or bad nor is cognizant of both qualities. I find your classification rather unsupported.

My "classification" was a report of personal experience, since I've been old enough to examine my morals. I didn't say I got them all genetically. If mine was an "ignorant" comment then yours, being "ignorant" of what I clearly wrote, is what?

I want to see the evidence you have for those percentages as I am not aware of any clear results on the subject of where our morality comes from yet.

Are you allowed to have an opinion of your own on this? Don't you think, based on what you do know now, that God should zap those hell-bound souls out of existence, rather than let them pointlessly suffer?

Yes I have an opinion and yes I also know that, while God can "zap evildoers out of hell" I also know that he can make square circles a logical reality in our minds but this has not come to pass.

You've missed the question there. I didn't ask if he 'can' do it, he's 'all-powerful' so that would be silly. I asked whether, in your opinion, he should zap them out of existence rather than allowing them to stay on in suffering.

As I said, I am an atheist. Am I not "away from the 'sight' of God"? I don't think you have a single thing to base your statement that such a situation is torment. Or am I in "spiritual metaphorical" torment?

FFS I'm referring to being in Hell. It represents being away from the sight of God. I mentioned that the pain and the fire and all of what the Qur'an describes may serve as a metaphorical basis of spiritual agony being away from God however I'm not at the liberity to say that this is universal this is my personal philosophica view.

So it was just speculation?

As for my personal opinion on 'hell': it seems to me that hell is a relic of the human species' most primitive urges to see their enemies suffer. The hope of somehow surviving death is made even more attractive with a 'heaven' and the thought that the disbelievers/your enemies will be suffering greatly. It's a sadistic primitive kind of 'ha, see! ha!'. All totally made-up by silly humans of course.

Very childish....

Me thinks Materialist just wants to argue his poorly defended position.

Methinks you are getting a little easily riled up, antagonistic and borderline malicious for a follower of the "religion of peace".

 

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