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Duende
 
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bullet Posted: 10 August 2007 at 11:43am
I was just wondering, the title of the pleading, whining article Israeli
Avatar posted in the first place: Letter to the World, I am wondering which
world the writer is addressing?

To be honest, I couldn't stomach reading the whole thing, it's just too self
pitying and lays it on thick with all those historical clichés: "woe is me, I'm
a Jew and the whole world hates me" kind of things, and "look! Look at
what you've done to my people! Wail and wail.

Does the world this letter is addressed to include, I wonder, say, South
Surinam, let's say, or the Tuvalu isles maybe? does it include the whole of
the Indonesian archipelago? Sumatra, North and South Korea, perhaps?
Does the world he is addressing include Vietnam or that small
insignificant place known as China, or does it include Botswana, South
Africa, Niger, Nigeria, oh I don't know, um, Algeria, or Cuba, Mexico, and
that bunch of countries near there, Nicaragua, Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia ...?

Because I can't for the life of me find any justification for him assuming
the WHOLE WORLD is against him...
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bullet Posted: 10 August 2007 at 4:54pm
Duende:
If you like to see where Israeli Avatar is coming from you owe it to yourself the perusal of a 3 part essay  "GERMANY, THE RE-ENGINEERED ALLY"by Axel Brot. It is long one and may need your patience and undivided attention!
It is mind boggling where Israelis stand today in the global political dynamics! If they can get away with doing what the article says to Germans I can feel the plight of helpless Palestinians or any one for that matter who gets on the short end of their stick!
They are really pushing for the precipice.



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bullet Posted: 10 August 2007 at 6:57pm

There is much to address, so I will start with most ascerbic commentaries on what I have stated. It seems that many of you do not actually read, but just speak. That is perfectly ok, I understand who I am dealing with.

"Semantics. Arab Christians and Muslims and "actual" Middle Eastern Jews were well established in the region under the Ottomans and workled the land and lived on the land, etc, etc, etc."

What exactly do you mean by well established? You see westerners and non-westerners have different ideas of such a reality. For me, living in a sand pit under the oppresive Ottomon Empire would not be considered well established.

"You are trying to obfuscate the point through pointless semantics."

You are using the word "obfuscate" too much, why don't you open up a dictionary and learn another word? It is of course pointless semantics if it does not glorify your so-called moral and logical perspectives.

"Strawman. No one has argued contrary to this nor does this point invalidate what has been stated."

Yes, that is true, but no Muslim would ever address such facts, it wouldn't be politically viable to do so. You claim superimposition in the land of Israel becuase you are the majority.

"That was a great manipulation of the thread. Only a zionist could try and pull off such charades. This is Zionist propoganda and you know it. None of which holds any water and this is simply meant to "obfuscate". Keep in mind that the forum is not made up of the weak and usual ignorant mind set of the typical American. The heavy Zionist lobby was able to hood wink most Americans because they are too wrapped up in their materialism to leanr anything about history and the world. In other words, this intellectually bankrupt diatribe works on FOX news, or with the followers of John Hagee, but not at this forum."

When you assert words like manipulation or obfuscation, please, in spite of your higher knowledge, give me an alternative explantion, and pespective on this issue. Ignorant mind set of the typical American, and what is exactly does it mean to be a typical American, aren't you living in America? What is this Zionist lobby? And are you saying that Zionist's are not really Americans? Since when were those things mutually exclusive? And I guess intelectually indigent diatribes would never work on Al gezera or whatever your news stations are.  

"Nice rhetorical dance. I will answer for you: They were white Europeans, some with Turkic ancestory."

"That was not so hard!?"

Please clarify the aforementioned, I cannot comment on this contorted answer.

"Excuse me, were you involved with the Ottomans? You seem to have first hand knowledge. This is simply more manipulation. Your movement excells at information manipluation."

I never claimed to have first hand knowledge of anything, but I was involved in history through a plethora of mediums. My movement through what?

"duh!.....they have only been the established people that Zionists have kicked the crap out of for 40 years now. What planet are you from?"

Here you just got cocky and missed the point completely, that was my response for one of your Arab brothers, you have to read carefully. And in reality, the "Zionists" have been involved in this conflict a little longer, and as far as them kicking the crap out of the Palestinians, I never argued against this point, but stated that there are no innocent parties.

"Euro Jews worked with Euro Christians to take land away from one people and give it to another."

There were many land contracts issued by the Europeans that were contradictory. The point in this situation is that anachronisms and generalizations are used by your side all the time. The Jewish people likewise utilize such tactics, and assert a claim to the land, but the contemporary political situation is more complicated than that, and you are just over-symplifying things. 

"Complex question (a fallacy)."

The reason for this question being a fallacy is because it is complex? Is this what they teach you in Saudi Arabia? Is this the reason why you are all so educated?

"The criminal zion state is at the epitome of a criminal and racist ideology. What does Israel know of "humanity". The state was born out of lie and deceit, and one day, Praise be to God, it will also die in lies and deceit."

The epitome of racist and criminal ideology by what standard and criterion exactly? It may have been born out of such things, but so was every other country, nation, empire, and religion. I have no problem with what you are saying, other than the fact that you are hypocrite. And if it does die, it will take you with it.

"who cares, you can play semantics all day long with that word until it fits your agenda, and one day that agenda will change as will your definition. The truth is in action, and your movement is "criminal""

I guess you are a prohet and a logician, that does not manipulate information in order to make it fit his agenda. The truth is a matter of perception, but it may also be an action. And my movement may be criminal, but so is yours, criminality pervades everything to a degree.

"There is true that Zionism and Jew are not necessarily the same things. I know of Jews who rightfully despise Zionsim."

We all like people that agree with us, it is human nature.

"LOL.....Zioinst propoganda. Simply "rubbish". The zionist want the world to know that the Palestinians are better off having Zioinst thugs controlling them. That is so idiotic that I will not give it any more attention."

You said that you will not give this any more attention, and yet you state something right after. Of course the Palestinians are better off living under the Saudis, or Iraqis, or whatever, so that there land can be a paradise just like Afganistan, minus the virgins of course.

"Irrelevant, no one is talking about the Taliban."

Thats the problem.

"Furthermore, Israel has a lot in common with Iran, and the Taliban: They are all products of western manipulation. The Taliban-> formed as a result of the mess the US left in the country. Iran-> The British and US used false flag operations known as operation Ajax to change a government from a democratically elected one to a corrputed monarchy. The result was the "revolution". Israel-> The British, backed by the US, gave away someone elses land to another people and then armed them and trained them."

And what is not a product of western manipulation in modern society to some degree? You live in America, you Muslim dildo. The Taliban formed as a result of the mess that the Russians left in their country, a little reading may help before speaking. As far as Iran is concerned, the US did not act ethically, you are correct on that point. Not only the British, there were many parties involved, and certain Arab tribes were not innocent victims of anything, but potentially murderous groups themselves.

"Your country stands as a testament to deception and fruad."

Would that be the USA or Israel? Because I am a citezen of both, and you are a resident of one of those countries.

I will answer as much as I can, let's take this a step at a time. Thank you and God bless!

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bullet Posted: 10 August 2007 at 7:31pm

Israeli Avatar,

Just to quench my curiousity can you provide tangible evidence that Israeli is not a racist state and extends rights to "all individuals" no matter their religion, race or creed?

If I did provide evidence would you accept it as evidence? Rights in Israel are not granted equally to all residents, if that were to happen, there would not be an Israel. A very uninteligent question. Is it wrong to be discriminatory? That depends on what you value most, your people, or the other mother lovers.

 

Can you also provide tangible evidence (aside from personal opinion) that the current massacre of the Palestinians is a solution to root out terrorism?

Once again, we have reached another stumbling block. Our ideas on the word evidence deviate. Would you trust an IDF military report, or commentary provided by IDF soildiers, or pro-Israeli Arabs serving in the IDF? Probably not because we are Zionist pigs looking to dominate the world right? But, I believe that the situation is very difficult, and if the Israelies do not use force against violent groups like Hamas then what exactly should they do? Do you want us to send them Hershey kisses and roses when they lob rockets into Israeli towns and kill civilians? So we should not respond and just give all of the land to them? Would that end the violence in the middle east? Would all of these oligarchs and tyrants that are in charge in the Middle East suddenly cease to be? Would some of them dissapear? This is a very complicated sitiuation. Listen, I believe that there are good Arab and Muslim people out there, but they are small silent minority.

One last thing.....

Can you also provide evidence of a strategy provided by Israel to create some kind of middle east peace where the Palestinians can have their own state without the fear of being exterminated?

The Palestinians are being exterminated? When I was in the west bank, I have never seen such things, but when I was a member of Kahane's organization, I would love to have seen such things. You see I was an extremist, but then I realized that there is a chance for us to be freinds, a small chance, but still a chance.

If the Palestinians do not lob rockets in to Israel, and lay down there arms, we would never harm any of them. But Israel will always respond, even if it means to take the entire Palestinian civilization with it.

Bulldozing homes of Palestinians and calling it justice is not a solution and frankly, it is not even justice. I'm sure there are Palestinians that do harbor criminals but they do so because they really don't like Israel not because they support their actions. Similarly we cops face this on the streets everyday. Many neighborhoods where neighbors are very "nosy" harbor criminals who ahve committed serious crimes (even murders). When we caught a criminal in a neighbors house we asked them: "Why did you harbor a criminal?" They told us "We don't like cops."

Lobbing rockets into Israeli homes is also not a solution. There are Palestinians that harbor criminals because they do not like Israel, and maybe even because they are criminals themselves, but I will not play guessing games and risk my children. And as a cop you should understand that the violation of the law is just that, and do not compare your time on duty to what the IDF has to deal with, you sound moronic.

I'm very critical of both states because both Palestinians and Israelis are to blame for their own mess but I believe personally that Israel, because of their capability is being too aggressive and too fanatical with their agenda to root out terrorism. I'm awaiting for someone who lives  in that region (or has good knowledge of the current situation) to show me tangible proof that their side is right.

 

Have you been to Israel? The Israelies are actually very liberal and secular, many of them just want this all to stop. The problem is that the poltical tides are turning, and these suicide bombings are pissing more Israelies off to the point where the right gaining a vast amount of influence now. The Israelies actually have appalling rules of engagment, and many of the soildiers are restrained to a very high degree. If the Israelies were as aggresive as you think they are, their wouldn't be any Palestinians. Why would you be waiting for somebody to show you such evidence? Why don't you just grab a plane ticket and go there tommorow? Live with an Israeli family, and a Palestinian family, or go beyond that and see familes all over Israel and Palestine. You are the type of guy that would not be satisfied with any "tangible evidence," presented online so shut your pie hole, and buy a ticket. Leave tommorow, and see for yourself. You say that both Palestinians and Israelies have blame and yet you want to know who is right in this situation? I think that you have made up your mind already.



Edited by Israeli_Avatar
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bullet Posted: 11 August 2007 at 2:15am
Originally posted by Israeli_Avatar

There is much to address, so I will start with most ascerbic commentaries on what I have stated. It seems that many of you do not actually read, but just speak. That is perfectly ok, I understand who I am dealing with.

ad hominem. Are you show your true colors? hmmm

 

"Semantics. Arab Christians and Muslims and "actual" Middle Eastern Jews were well established in the region under the Ottomans and workled the land and lived on the land, etc, etc, etc."

What exactly do you mean by well established? You see westerners and non-westerners have different ideas of such a reality. For me, living in a sand pit under the oppresive Ottomon Empire would not be considered well established.

Trying to befuddle a point through mere semantics speaks volumes of the chicanery you are trying to smear the thread with.

As for the red herring you threw out about the Ottomans: suppositional zionist drivel. The typical American lacky will take your Zionist misinformation as fact, but this is hardly an audience made up of the typical American.

 

"You are trying to obfuscate the point through pointless semantics."

You are using the word "obfuscate" too much, why don't you open up a dictionary and learn another word? It is of course pointless semantics if it does not glorify your so-called moral and logical perspectives.

Why would I change the label of theif for someone who steals and continues to steal? No rational person would change the word to fit the thief. Likewise, why would I find another term to describe your diatribe? If you dislike the term, then loose the poor sophistry.

 

"Strawman. No one has argued contrary to this nor does this point invalidate what has been stated."

Yes, that is true, but no Muslim would ever address such facts, it wouldn't be politically viable to do so. You claim superimposition in the land of Israel becuase you are the majority.

If you agree that it was a strawman, then we can both agree that the red herring has no validity and therefore requires no further attention. This in no way means I agree or disagree, it means the point is not valid.

 

"That was a great manipulation of the thread. Only a zionist could try and pull off such charades. This is Zionist propoganda and you know it. None of which holds any water and this is simply meant to "obfuscate". Keep in mind that the forum is not made up of the weak and usual ignorant mind set of the typical American. The heavy Zionist lobby was able to hood wink most Americans because they are too wrapped up in their materialism to leanr anything about history and the world. In other words, this intellectually bankrupt diatribe works on FOX news, or with the followers of John Hagee, but not at this forum."

When you assert words like manipulation or obfuscation, please, in spite of your higher knowledge, give me an alternative explantion, and pespective on this issue.

 

I do not assert words, although I can assert meanings, but the meanings are not simply asserted given I have used them in general terms. If you have a particular question about a particular instance that you have some confusion over, then please form a valid question and I will do my best to explain or make a correction if I am wrong. As far as I can see, you are attempting to "befuddle" the point I made with an unreasonable request.

 

Ignorant mind set of the typical American, and what is exactly does it mean to be a typical American, aren't you living in America?

 

Complex question: being a typical American does not imply that every American is typical. So me being in America, and me being an American, in no way implies that I am "typical".

My statements that reflect my usage of the word, "typical",  when describing the Zionist drivel you are trying to push off on the forum, is in relation to the "typical" America who elects the leaders who set foriegn policy that reflect a clear "Zionist"/"Israeli" blind support based upon the typical "Zioinst drivel" that is similar to the "drivel" you have tried to use here.

The general word usage expressed in my statements with regard to your suppositional nonsense provide the context from which one, with even a cursory education, shoule be able to deduce the meaning/s.

I cannot make it any more "clear", and if your sophistry presses in this direction, I can only suspect ignorance on your part or chicanery.

Your contributions so far have revealed sufficient ability, so I must conclude "chicanery". Am I wrong?

 What is this Zionist lobby? And are you saying that Zionist's are not really Americans? Since when were those things mutually exclusive? And I guess intelectually indigent diatribes would never work on Al gezera or whatever your news stations are.  

1) Zionist Lobby? Either you are joking, obtuse, or obfuscating: Groups that are pro Zionist that lobby US politics.

2) I did not make any reference to the relationship between Zionism and being an American which includes a universal qualifier (no Americans are Zionists..etc, etc) That would leave your question regarding exclusivity in such a relationship as "complex".

3) Your last comment was an incoherent attempt at a red herring. I think I would put up a "at work" sign on that one.

 

"Nice rhetorical dance. I will answer for you: They were white Europeans, some with Turkic ancestory."

"That was not so hard!?"

Please clarify the aforementioned, I cannot comment on this contorted answer.

rubbish. The question given to you was quite clear but you simply practiced your pattern of masterful evasion. I answered for you. Refer back to the actual question (funny...I cannot help but think of your ad hominem concerning reading before talking..seriously, the question was rather straightforward)

"Excuse me, were you involved with the Ottomans? You seem to have first hand knowledge. This is simply more manipulation. Your movement excells at information manipluation."

I never claimed to have first hand knowledge of anything, but I was involved in history through a plethora of mediums. My movement through what?

 

Neither did the sister who brought up historical atrocities commited by the thuggish Israeli regime. But that made no difference when you made an unreasonable demand on her as a requirement to discuss Israeli atrocities. You are now committing the fallacy of special pleading. You can quote your suppositional rubbish about history that fits your twisted, Zioinst world view, without any involvement in the stated events, but this cannot be allowed when it is about the spiritually, and morally bankrupt state of Israel and its dubious creation.

Movement: Zionism

 

"duh!.....they have only been the established people that Zionists have kicked the crap out of for 40 years now. What planet are you from?"

Here you just got cocky and missed the point completely, that was my response for one of your Arab brothers, you have to read carefully. And in reality, the "Zionists" have been involved in this conflict a little longer, and as far as them kicking the crap out of the Palestinians, I never argued against this point, but stated that there are no innocent parties.

But I can "understand" Palestinian anger, while Israeli agression is unfounded. If someone from another land, gave my land away to another people in another land, I would be "pissed off" to no end, and I doubt I would sit calm and peaceful in some crap hole camp set up by the Israeli regime.

 

"Euro Jews worked with Euro Christians to take land away from one people and give it to another."

There were many land contracts issued by the Europeans that were contradictory. The point in this situation is that anachronisms and generalizations are used by your side all the time.

No, the manipulation of history is an art that has been brought to its apex by Zioinst and pro zionist thinkers. It is very simple: Someone gave another groups land away, to yet another people, and then these people have the nerve to cry "foul", and then build another holocaust museum to remind everyone that Israelis are really the victims (no I am not a holocaust denier).

The Jewish people likewise utilize such tactics, and assert a claim to the land, but the contemporary political situation is more complicated than that, and you are just over-symplifying things. 

The Israeli nation was founded on people who had nothing to do with the land! What color is your sky?!

 

"Complex question (a fallacy)."

The reason for this question being a fallacy is because it is complex? Is this what they teach you in Saudi Arabia? Is this the reason why you are all so educated?

A complex question is a question that has buried in its premise an unargued, unproven assertion. Thats why it is complex. 

"The criminal zion state is at the epitome of a criminal and racist ideology. What does Israel know of "humanity". The state was born out of lie and deceit, and one day, Praise be to God, it will also die in lies and deceit."

The epitome of racist and criminal ideology by what standard and criterion exactly? It may have been born out of such things, but so was every other country, nation, empire, and religion. I have no problem with what you are saying, other than the fact that you are hypocrite. And if it does die, it will take you with it.

poor analogy. In this world, nothing has at its bases a single attribute, but a mix. Nothing is purely evil, even Hitler treated his lover with kindess. In this world, when we seek the attributes of "such and such" thing, we must speak in terms of its "predominant" attributes. You cannot simply say, "ok....Israel may have some racism, but so did everyone else". That kind of broad, sweeping generalization is problematic, not to mention commits equivocation fallacies with the word racism and the ideas of race and minority treatment. You cannot just "handwave" your way though that.

 

"who cares, you can play semantics all day long with that word until it fits your agenda, and one day that agenda will change as will your definition. The truth is in action, and your movement is "criminal""

I guess you are a prohet and a logician, that does not manipulate information in order to make it fit his agenda. The truth is a matter of perception, but it may also be an action. And my movement may be criminal, but so is yours, criminality pervades everything to a degree.

I have made no claim to prophethood. I will say that movements such as Zionism count on the fact that truth can be manipulated by perception, which is why so many Americans are willing to sacrifice the blood of their children for Israeli foreign policy and have no idea they are doing so. 

"There is true that Zionism and Jew are not necessarily the same things. I know of Jews who rightfully despise Zionsim."

We all like people that agree with us, it is human nature.

"LOL.....Zioinst propoganda. Simply "rubbish". The zionist want the world to know that the Palestinians are better off having Zioinst thugs controlling them. That is so idiotic that I will not give it any more attention."

You said that you will not give this any more attention, and yet you state something right after. Of course the Palestinians are better off living under the Saudis, or Iraqis, or whatever, so that there land can be a paradise just like Afganistan, minus the virgins of course.

I did not comment on the nonsense about the Ottomans. That is what I refered to.

Nor have I argued about Palestinian/Saudi relations..come now, this is simply more irrelevant riffraff. And your "virgin" comment is yet another red herring. I think I can let that go, after all, we shall not get into the Jewish Abraham "cuckhold" adventures as portrayed in the TANAKH, or even the glorified tales of the lying, deceptive wife of Issac portrayed as a "bitch" who had to use theft and "covert" deception to steal poor Essau's blessings and inheritance to ensure "Israeli" dominance. Sounds familiar yes? It writes out like the playbook that was used to found Israel. Lets not twist my faith to fit your Zionist preconceptions when you have mud all over your face.

 

"Irrelevant, no one is talking about the Taliban."

Thats the problem.

No, the fallacy of irrelevancy is the problem.

"Furthermore, Israel has a lot in common with Iran, and the Taliban: They are all products of western manipulation. The Taliban-> formed as a result of the mess the US left in the country. Iran-> The British and US used false flag operations known as operation Ajax to change a government from a democratically elected one to a corrputed monarchy. The result was the "revolution". Israel-> The British, backed by the US, gave away someone elses land to another people and then armed them and trained them."

And what is not a product of western manipulation in modern society to some degree?

wtf? Did anyone say anything about what influences from western or any other culture is/ or is not in modern society? Did anyone state that there are no degress of influence from any society in another culture? You just evaded again.

 

 You live in America, you Muslim dildo.

Nice.

 

The Taliban formed as a result of the mess that the Russians left in their country, a little reading may help before speaking.

The Russians were defeated. The Russians were defeated because the US armed the rebels to the teeth with weapons, and the US trained them. The Russians pulled out. Perhaps you should put your Zionist revisionist books down and learn to think critically.

 As far as Iran is concerned, the US did not act ethically, you are correct on that point. Not only the British, there were many parties involved, and certain Arab tribes were not innocent victims of anything, but potentially murderous groups themselves.

The US and British took out a democratically elected leader with the use of terrorism. You are trying to say that because they found some elements in the society to help them, that somehow it makes the larger populace that the elements belong to "guilty by ethnic affiliation", therefore it was there own fault? Your argument is incoherent. And the irrational association of smaller elements (criminal) does not change my point.

 

"Your country stands as a testament to deception and fruad."

Would that be the USA or Israel? Because I am a citezen of both, and you are a resident of one of those countries.

Of course you are. In theory (not saying you do this!), you can come to the US and act like a parasite: vote, influence policy, and suck the US dry all to support a foriegn nation which has no real loyalty to the US.  

I will answer as much as I can, let's take this a step at a time. Thank you and God bless!

No hard feelings.

May God guide you. 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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bullet Posted: 11 August 2007 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Andalus

Originally posted by Israeli_Avatar

There is much to address, so I will start with most ascerbic commentaries on what I have stated. It seems that many of you do not actually read, but just speak. That is perfectly ok, I understand who I am dealing with.

ad hominem. Are you show your true colors? hmmm

Just like your brothers and sisters.

 

"Semantics. Arab Christians and Muslims and "actual" Middle Eastern Jews were well established in the region under the Ottomans and workled the land and lived on the land, etc, etc, etc."

What exactly do you mean by well established? You see westerners and non-westerners have different ideas of such a reality. For me, living in a sand pit under the oppresive Ottomon Empire would not be considered well established.

Trying to befuddle a point through mere semantics speaks volumes of the chicanery you are trying to smear the thread with.

I am trying to understand what the hell your trying to say actually.

 

As for the red herring you threw out about the Ottomans: suppositional zionist drivel. The typical American lacky will take your Zionist misinformation as fact, but this is hardly an audience made up of the typical American.

Yes, the typical Muslim that lives in America, if you want to enlighten me, then please show please show me a scholarly source that says other wise.

"You are trying to obfuscate the point through pointless semantics."

You are using the word "obfuscate" too much, why don't you open up a dictionary and learn another word? It is of course pointless semantics if it does not glorify your so-called moral and logical perspectives.

Why would I change the label of theif for someone who steals and continues to steal? No rational person would change the word to fit the thief. Likewise, why would I find another term to describe your diatribe? If you dislike the term, then loose the poor sophistry.

That is not a label, but an action. I am merely suggesting for you to expand your vocabulary. Do not take everything so politically. And you are not the theif? The Ottomons were not theives? Let me guess, the Muslims are exempt from being labeled theives because the world belongs to them.

 

"Strawman. No one has argued contrary to this nor does this point invalidate what has been stated."

Yes, that is true, but no Muslim would ever address such facts, it wouldn't be politically viable to do so. You claim superimposition in the land of Israel becuase you are the majority.

If you agree that it was a strawman, then we can both agree that the red herring has no validity and therefore requires no further attention. This in no way means I agree or disagree, it means the point is not valid.

You agree that the point is a truth? So how is it the the truth is invalid? That doesn't even make sense.

 

"That was a great manipulation of the thread. Only a zionist could try and pull off such charades. This is Zionist propoganda and you know it. None of which holds any water and this is simply meant to "obfuscate". Keep in mind that the forum is not made up of the weak and usual ignorant mind set of the typical American. The heavy Zionist lobby was able to hood wink most Americans because they are too wrapped up in their materialism to leanr anything about history and the world. In other words, this intellectually bankrupt diatribe works on FOX news, or with the followers of John Hagee, but not at this forum."

When you assert words like manipulation or obfuscation, please, in spite of your higher knowledge, give me an alternative explantion, and pespective on this issue.

 

I do not assert words, although I can assert meanings, but the meanings are not simply asserted given I have used them in general terms. If you have a particular question about a particular instance that you have some confusion over, then please form a valid question and I will do my best to explain or make a correction if I am wrong. As far as I can see, you are attempting to "befuddle" the point I made with an unreasonable request.

I have only seen things that are absolutely devoid of meaning. You understood exactly what I was saying. If you believe that my perspective on history is propoganda, then prove it. Do not just label what I say as a manipulation, but put your money where your mouth is and go a step further.

Ignorant mind set of the typical American, and what is exactly does it mean to be a typical American, aren't you living in America?

 

Complex question: being a typical American does not imply that every American is typical. So me being in America, and me being an American, in no way implies that I am "typical".

Good point

My statements that reflect my usage of the word, "typical",  when describing the Zionist drivel you are trying to push off on the forum, is in relation to the "typical" America who elects the leaders who set foriegn policy that reflect a clear "Zionist"/"Israeli" blind support based upon the typical "Zioinst drivel" that is similar to the "drivel" you have tried to use here.

Who are these leaders and what are the alternatives?

The general word usage expressed in my statements with regard to your suppositional nonsense provide the context from which one, with even a cursory education, shoule be able to deduce the meaning/s.

So I guess your education must be very superficial.

I cannot make it any more "clear", and if your sophistry presses in this direction, I can only suspect ignorance on your part or chicanery.

Your contributions so far have revealed sufficient ability, so I must conclude "chicanery". Am I wrong?

How can a somewhat educated man like you be wrong?

 What is this Zionist lobby? And are you saying that Zionist's are not really Americans? Since when were those things mutually exclusive? And I guess intelectually indigent diatribes would never work on Al gezera or whatever your news stations are.  

1) Zionist Lobby? Either you are joking, obtuse, or obfuscating: Groups that are pro Zionist that lobby US politics.

Such as, be specfic?

2) I did not make any reference to the relationship between Zionism and being an American which includes a universal qualifier (no Americans are Zionists..etc, etc) That would leave your question regarding exclusivity in such a relationship as "complex".

Please define what it means it to be an American when you say such things. You have to be a little bit more clear.

3) Your last comment was an incoherent attempt at a red herring. I think I would put up a "at work" sign on that one.

Perhaps you should use your cursory education to take another gander.

"Nice rhetorical dance. I will answer for you: They were white Europeans, some with Turkic ancestory."

"That was not so hard!?"

Please clarify the aforementioned, I cannot comment on this contorted answer.

rubbish. The question given to you was quite clear to you simply practiced your pattern of masterful evasion. I answered for you. Refer back to the actual question (funny...I cannot help but think of your ad hominem concerning reading before talking..seriously, the question was rather straightforward)

I have no clue as to what the hell your blabbing about. Clarify your position, you are veering off into nothingness.

"Excuse me, were you involved with the Ottomans? You seem to have first hand knowledge. This is simply more manipulation. Your movement excells at information manipluation."

I never claimed to have first hand knowledge of anything, but I was involved in history through a plethora of mediums. My movement through what?

Neither did the sister who brought up historical atrocities commited by the thuggish Israeli regime. But that made no difference when you made an unreasonable demand on her as a requirement to discuss Israeli atrocities. You are now committing the fallacy of special pleading. You can quote your suppositional rubbish about history that fits your twisted, Zioinst world view, without any involvement in the stated events, but this cannot be allowed when it is about the spiritually, and morally bankrupt state of Israel and its dubious creation.

This "sister" used very vivid imagery, I was stating a very reasonable question, and asking her where she recived such "tranparent" imagery. It is very interesting, but I have never heard or seen such things in the west bank. Why are you speaking about spiritually? I thought we were on politics.

Movement: Zionism

Ok

"duh!.....they have only been the established people that Zionists have kicked the crap out of for 40 years now. What planet are you from?"

Here you just got cocky and missed the point completely, that was my response for one of your Arab brothers, you have to read carefully. And in reality, the "Zionists" have been involved in this conflict a little longer, and as far as them kicking the crap out of the Palestinians, I never argued against this point, but stated that there are no innocent parties.

But I can "understand" Palestinian anger, while Israeli agression is unfounded. If someone from another land, gave my land away to another people in another land, I would be "pissed off" to no end, and I doubt I would sit calm and peaceful in some crap hole camp set up by the Israeli regime.

So why are you living in the United States or anywhere else for that matter? These things have occured many times over in history, all over the world.

"Euro Jews worked with Euro Christians to take land away from one people and give it to another."

There were many land contracts issued by the Europeans that were contradictory. The point in this situation is that anachronisms and generalizations are used by your side all the time.

No, the manipulation of history is an art that has been brought to its apex by Zioinst and pro zionist thinkers. It is very simple: Someone gave another groups land away, to yet another people, and then these people have the nerve to cry "foul", and then build another holocaust museum to remind everyone that Israelis are really the victims (no I am not a holocaust denier).

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the Ottomons conquer that territory? And didn't the Romans take that land away from the Jews? And didn't over half a million Jews live in this land as Palestinians among these Muslims who persecuted them for centuries and forcefully converted them, while raping their women? And what happened to the land and property taken by Muslims from Jews in Islamic countries before the creation of the state of Israel? Why don't you complain about that?

The Jewish people likewise utilize such tactics, and assert a claim to the land, but the contemporary political situation is more complicated than that, and you are just over-symplifying things. 

The Israeli nation was founded on people who had nothing to do with the land! What color is your sky?!

So was America. What are you doing there, and why do you call yourself a non-typical American? If you feel so strongly against such actions then you shouldn't be in this country.

"Complex question (a fallacy)."

The reason for this question being a fallacy is because it is complex? Is this what they teach you in Saudi Arabia? Is this the reason why you are all so educated?

A complex question is a question that has buried in its premise an unargued, unproven assertion. Thats why it is complex. 

What assertion would that be, and why is it unproved? Please show me a scholarly source, I am all ears, I would love to see your "rational" side of things.

 

"The criminal zion state is at the epitome of a criminal and racist ideology. What does Israel know of "humanity". The state was born out of lie and deceit, and one day, Praise be to God, it will also die in lies and deceit."

The epitome of racist and criminal ideology by what standard and criterion exactly? It may have been born out of such things, but so was every other country, nation, empire, and religion. I have no problem with what you are saying, other than the fact that you are hypocrite. And if it does die, it will take you with it.

poor analogy. In this world, nothing has at its bases a single attribute, but a mix. Nothing is purely evil, even Hitler treated his lover with kindess. In this world, when we seek the attributes of "such and such" thing, we must speak in terms of its "predominant" attributes. You cannot simply say, "ok....Israel may have some racism, but so did everyone else". That kind of broad, sweeping generalization is problematic, not to mention commits equivocation fallacies with the word racism and the ideas of race and minority treatment. You cannot just "handwave" your way though that.

Ms. Braun was treated with indifference, their wasn't much kindess there because the man was very callous. This is not a broad sweeping generalization, but a verity. Israel is no more racist than any Muslim regime, or even America. Israel is actually a very liberal society that wants nothing to do with the Palestinians or the territories of 67.

 

"who cares, you can play semantics all day long with that word until it fits your agenda, and one day that agenda will change as will your definition. The truth is in action, and your movement is "criminal""

I guess you are a prohet and a logician, that does not manipulate information in order to make it fit his agenda. The truth is a matter of perception, but it may also be an action. And my movement may be criminal, but so is yours, criminality pervades everything to a degree.

I have made no claim to prophethood. I will say that movements such as Zionism count on the fact that truth can be manipulated by perception, which is why so many Americans are willing to sacrifice the blood of their children for Israeli foreign policy and have no idea they are doing so. 

Sure you have, implictly. The truth will always be manipulated, either by your or someone else. I have no issue with what you are saying, I only have a problem with the hypocrisy.

 

"There is true that Zionism and Jew are not necessarily the same things. I know of Jews who rightfully despise Zionsim."

We all like people that agree with us, it is human nature.

"LOL.....Zioinst propoganda. Simply "rubbish". The zionist want the world to know that the Palestinians are better off having Zioinst thugs controlling them. That is so idiotic that I will not give it any more attention."

You said that you will not give this any more attention, and yet you state something right after. Of course the Palestinians are better off living under the Saudis, or Iraqis, or whatever, so that there land can be a paradise just like Afganistan, minus the virgins of course.

I did not comment on the nonsense about the Ottomans. That is what I refered to.

Please show me the scholarly evidence for your reasoning.

Nor have I argued about Palestinian/Saudi relations..come now, this is simply more irrelevant riffraff. And your "virgin" comment is yet another red herring. I think I can let that go, after all, we shall not get into the Jewish Abraham "cuckhold" adventures as portrayed in the TANAKH, or even the glorified tales of the lying, deceptive wife of Issac portrayed as a "bitch" who had to use theft and "covert" deception to steal poor Essau's blessings and inheritance to ensure "Israeli" dominance. Sounds familiar yes? It writes out like the playbook that was used to found Israel. Lets not twist my faith to fit your Zionist preconceptions when you have mud all over your face.

The Koran views the Torah as holy document, so I do not understand why you would call her a bitch.  It actually sounds like the playbook used to found anything and everything in human society. Ask the Native Americans, they will tell you.

"Irrelevant, no one is talking about the Taliban."

Thats the problem.

No, the fallacy of irrelevancy is the problem.

The problem is that any fact that undermines your position is ignored by you; being one-sided is human nature, so it is not shocking.

 

"Furthermore, Israel has a lot in common with Iran, and the Taliban: They are all products of western manipulation. The Taliban-> formed as a result of the mess the US left in the country. Iran-> The British and US used false flag operations known as operation Ajax to change a government from a democratically elected one to a corrputed monarchy. The result was the "revolution". Israel-> The British, backed by the US, gave away someone elses land to another people and then armed them and trained them."

And what is not a product of western manipulation in modern society to some degree?

wtf? Did anyone say anything about what influences from western or any other culture is/ or is not in modern society? Did anyone state that there are no degress of influence from any society in another culture? You just evaded again.

I did not evade anything, I merely made the point that you hold Israel to a higher standard than anything else that has ever existed because you have a serious and malicious agenda, which is a fact.

 

 You live in America, you Muslim dildo.

Nice.

 

The Taliban formed as a result of the mess that the Russians left in their country, a little reading may help before speaking.

The Russians were defeated. The Russians were defeated because the US armed the rebels to the teeth with weapons, and the US trained them. The Russians pulled out. Perhaps you should put your Zionist revisionist books down and learn to think critically.

I never disagreed with this, I just stated that the damage caused was done by the USSR.

 As far as Iran is concerned, the US did not act ethically, you are correct on that point. Not only the British, there were many parties involved, and certain Arab tribes were not innocent victims of anything, but potentially murderous groups themselves.

The US and British took out a democratically elected leader with the use of terrorism. You are trying to say that because they found some elements in the society to help them, that somehow it makes the larger populace that the elements belong to "guilty by ethnic affiliation", therefore it was there own fault? Your argument is incoherent. And the irrational association of smaller elements (criminal) does not change my point.

If it was incoherent, then why did you even bother answering. I never said it makes the larger populace guilty by ethnic affilition, I just stated that certain tribes were a liability, and there were no innocent parties on any side.

"Your country stands as a testament to deception and fruad."

Would that be the USA or Israel? Because I am a citezen of both, and you are a resident of one of those countries.

Of course you are. In theory (not saying you do this!), you can come to the US and act like a parasite: vote, influence policy, and suck the US dry all to support a foriegn nation which has no real loyalty to the US.  

I pay the same taxes as you, and my loyalty to the US is far stronger than any Muslims. You are latent traitors, you would have no problem supporting Bin Laden or any other Muslim tyrant.

 

I will answer as much as I can, let's take this a step at a time. Thank you and God bless!

No hard feelings.

May God guide you. 

Not your God! God Bless!

 



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peacemaker
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bullet Posted: 11 August 2007 at 10:15am

Assalamu Alaikum,

It is of paramount importance that we comply with guidelines: 

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ;PN=1

Also see the warning thread in this section:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6073& ;PN=1

Peace

 

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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herjihad
 
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bullet Posted: 11 August 2007 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by peacemaker

Assalamu Alaikum,

It is of paramount importance that we comply with guidelines: 

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589& ; ; ;PN=1

Also see the warning thread in this section:

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6073& ; ; ;PN=1

Peace

 

Brother, did you notice that Israeli avatar said 

Your words are obviously the most genuine, that is exactly why you protest the idea of Islam being a violent religion with violence, and treat your women like filthy dogs. 

 Please ban him right away.  This doesn't even justify a warning.  Please act quickly, min shan Allah!



Edited by herjihad
Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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