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syed123
 
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Quote syed123 Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2007 at 1:31pm

To Whisper and all his followers  like Herjihad  i would like once again remind them of their responsibility to the Ummah as responsible Muslims.        &nbs p;         If  the majority of the Ummah was to consist of the so called enlightened  souls like Whisper and his cronies  with their flawed and misguided analysis and policies then we would have been doomed to total destruction and failure.

Thankfully thats not the case.

Inshaa allah in the coming days i will Dwell upon  the fallacies and flaws in the thinking of people like Whisper and his gang of followers.

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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2007 at 6:19pm

so called enlightened souls like Whisper and his cronies,

Ameer el Momineen, (A e M for short) I have explained it to you, a few times, that people who refuse to be even their own cronies, how can they ever be mine?

with their flawed and misguided analysis and policies then we would have been doomed to total destruction and failure.

A e M, please, tell us what's the difference between you and OBL or GWB? When all of you are deeply infatuated with just the one idea each one of you has come to hold?

Thankfully thats not the case.

I am relieved. I had had begun to see all those phantoms of Muslims, running around the streets, with naked bloodstained swords. All your sermons about those forces of extremism and intolerance had given me a few sleepless nights.

Tonight, I will sleep.

Inshaa allah in the coming days i will Dwell upon the fallacies and flaws in the thinking of people like Whisper and his gang of followers.

A e M, you don't need to lose any breath on such small matters. We could, always, download your latest version of Islam software and then all our flaws will upgrade into the latest flow of thinking.

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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2007 at 6:41pm

I'm pushed for time so I'll make this brief. Whisper you said:

And, sadly, he has agreed with me that the psychology of victimization doesn’t apply to the groups I am discussing

What did I agree to? Whisper it appears we are on square one when it comes to victimhood. Again I have to regurtitate how important it is to go back and refer to the thread I maderegarding the psychology of victimhood. Under the category Victimhood the following applies to what is considered a victim:

1. Non guilty- innocent victim: This category includes victims who do not share the responsibility of the offence with the perpetrators. These are innocent victims whom we cannot expect to be able to avert the offence by anticipating it or by preventing it.
Examples:

  • Children who are sexually or physically abused, or neglected.
  • Rape or murder victims when the crime is unforeseen, unprovoked, and perpetrated by complete strangers.
  • Severely mentally ill or disabled adults who get hurt or exploited.
  • Those who suffer a crime while unconscious.
  • Victims of random or rampage shooting.
  • Victims of unexpected natural disasters: victims of earthquake in a non-earthquake zone.

So whisper according to this the Afghan child who is maimed while playing soccer in the field is a real victim. A woman who is raped while the crime was unforseen, unprovoked are real victims.

But....

An Afghani or Palestinian who picks up a rifle up for whatever reason and goes after an aggressor is not a non-guilty victim, therefore, under this condition he/she is categorized as:

2. Victims With Minor Guilt: This category includes victims who with some thought, planning, awareness, information, or consciousness could have expected danger and avoided or minimized the harm to themselves. They 'could or should have known better.'
Examples:

  • Adult victims of repeated domestic violence where shelters are available (after patterns are established and it is no longer unpredictable).
  • Marital rape victims after the first few episodes (when the pattern has been established and it is no longer a surprise)
  • Women who are raped after choosing to get drunk (the minor responsibility is for electing to be completely helpless and unconscious, at the full mercy of others, in a situation that has the potential to be dangerous).
  • Adults who were victimized due to being in the wrong place and the wrong time, where with some awareness, preparation, and caution they could have prevented the assault.
  • Jews who suffered during the Holocaust (are of course not responsible for the Nazi's evils, but they could have resisted more, been less co-operative, and not gone like lambs to the slaughter. They could have read the situation better and left in time, as many of them (40%) did).

Any individual who is conscious and aware of consequences yet proceeds to act shares minor guilty and by minor guilty we classify this as responsibility. Regardless whether we see the act as self-defense of one's homeland (not home). I hope we can both come to an agreement that there is a difference between the two.

Whisper it is obvious that you share a different view than I and others may agree with you, however, it is inconceivable to assume (or even fathom) that even if there exist an external aggressor who is monopolizing another groups territory that, even those who have been victimized do not share some responsibility. this is not to say that the ones being victimized do not deserve to be victims but they share minor responsibility. According to this model regardless of how you put it unless the circumstance is unforseen there are no non-guilty victims.

Whether we pick up weapons and defend our homelands we shre some responsibility. If we choose to wallow in our environment and blame our external aggressor we share responsibility because we perpetuate the cycle of being a victim. With respect to the countries of Afghanistan and Palestine I'm not denying that there are real victims (like the maimed child you just mentioned) however an Afghani or Pali that fights back are not absent of some responsibility of their actions and therefore are not considered non-guilty victims (by non-guilty here I mean if an Afghani picks up a gun in the interest to defend his/her homeland yet gets their arm blown off he/she cannot say they are the victims of an attack by an external aggressor since he/she were consciously aware of the consequences).

Herjihad thanks for the info but as far as I'm concerned you have done nothing but have issued negative comments to me as far as my character and what I should do or not do. In your eyes I'm an ignorant Muslim who knows nothing. In the face of critiquing one's view I've seen roses wilted away. Although brother Whisper has a point which I do sincerely take into consideration I am not gonna sit and just agree just because it sounds good or because it supports what I believe I will critque it. With respect to the current thread I'm not going to assume that every individual in Afghanistan or Iraq or Palestine are non-guilty victims. I believe I have shown my position here so no need to repeat. From what it sounds, we can sit here and blame one entity for all our problems but what have we, as individuals done to solve this issue?

Simply talking about an external aggressor and how bad our lives are because of this entity does not solve the issue. Talking about it does but even discussion has its limits. Unlike yourself and many others on this board taking things and the opinions of others simply because it makes sense to me or because I agree with them is not necessarily critical thinking its subjective reasoning.

 

 

 



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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2007 at 7:12pm

I'm pushed for time so I'll make this brief. Whisper you said

Please come off it. All the world cultures don't run by the same book. What may apply in the US may not (and, in most cases, it doen't) apply in other cultures.

It's sad, I am no apologista like some others here and am unable to craft any academic excuses for this n for that.

Just let me please assure you of one simple thing. Struggles for national freedom AND specially those against brutal occupations are not born out of any VICTIM MENTALITY.

Let me also please assure you that we well know the reason why any such concepts are sold in the States.

Yes, a lot does happen in the slip streams of wars. I leave the ifs n buts and the whys n the why nots of those for academics of your calibre to ponder. I am a simple straight chap, my only interest is in getting my country clensed of the wandering marine hordes.

Please keep your philosophical considerations I am also glad about our other friend's new found Aunt Ekanamia and he can keep telling us all that in this world no one has any other relationship with life.

We are happy dying for our freedom.

Those who are scared of death never come to dance with life - Hazrat Ali. 



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Sasha Khanzadeh
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 28 August 2007 at 7:28pm

Whisper you're right. Not all cultures are classified the same way however I'm going by what the research states, which, is quite broad in regards to other cultures. The research was not conducted in the U.S. by the way. It was taking all global circumstances in consideration. I understand that most people with solid foundational beliefs wouldn't liek someone challenging that-myself included. I was merely trying to clarify my own position. I understand you have had experiences personal and otherwise that I have not and for that I commend you on your strength. Also we should stop the references with academia because this website has nothing to do with scholarly relationship but what we believe in as individuals.

Whisper what this boils down to is we have differences of opinion and quite frankly that is ok.

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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2007 at 1:58am

Whisper what this boils down to is we have differences of opinion and quite frankly that is ok.

Israfil, please, don't get me wrong. I understand and respect what you are saying. I am just trying to workout if every single thing in our world is just born out of some universal breeder called Victim Mentality?

We all know why the US is spending billions of dollars in painting all national struggles as mere products of victim mentality and as if these struggles were just being waged by some mere pocket groups.

Sasha Khanzadeh
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2007 at 2:12am

Whisper and I ask you not to misundertsand me. Unfortunately brother Whisper we live in a world of categories . What I mean is as adults (or innately) we classify things accordingly. Whether we like them or not we all categorize things whether we intentionally do them or not, and it seems that it is the way of life. I'm sure you know this. I, personally as a young man respect you regardless whether I meet you in person or not and I wish sister herjihad understands this. I respect you for the fact that as an individual coming from an under-represented culture (Afghanistanian) you are very strong in your position and you fight for equal rights and unfortunately your country is occupied by my country.

Whatever pretense my country acts upon (which is not positive) let us commence in dialetical discourse as men you me and Syed discuss for the sake of our Creator. Let us sip sweet tea and bask in the glory of God so to speak. All of us are not dumb creatures and if we can at least on a small scale come to a mutual agreement that suffering exist we can at least agree that such suffering must be extinguished by a solution.



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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 30 August 2007 at 12:59am

Whisper and I ask you not to misundertsand me.

Israfilius! If you ever found out how most of us regard you, you will pack in your badge and spend the next few years, on a hugging journey of your friends, across the world!

I must admit, I failed to address your post properly. Brother, I always rise before dawn, I tuck in early, your post flashed when I was half asleep.

In this day n age of cell phones (it barely costs anyone 4 cents a minute to call anyone, in London, from Lahore, Peshawar or Islamabad) you can't imagine how many hours I end up listening to the hell brewing in that area, through all these stolen Mushrule years.

And, then on top of that we have to listen to some Syed123? who makes B59000 or our ops154 sound like some sweet song writers!

I apologise if I sounded like what I didn't intend to.



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