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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Saladin
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Quote Saladin Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2008 at 1:48am
 Salaam,
 
 First, nowhere in the Quran or hadeeth can we find muslims being addressed as anything else than Muslims or Mu'mins. Even the term "Muhammadi" wasnt used to denote a person following the Prophet. Which Imam ever told his disciples to follow "his" teachings to be in the right path? We will find nowhere the imams telling that. Rather we see them telling muslims to " follow the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet" and to "put aside their opinions for a saheeh hadith". Were not their opinions made in the absence of hadith?
 
 
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Quote Hamzah Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2008 at 2:39am
Jazak Allah kahir Sister Chrysalis, brother Saladin, i agree totally even in the Quran Allah says in Sura 22-Al hajj
verse 78 :
(and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you MUSLIMS, both before and in this Revelation)
I choose to be called Muslim and nothing else!
"Whosoever fears Allah, he will appoint for him a way out, and provide for him from where he does not expect"
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2008 at 5:28am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Br Hamzah

This is not a Saudi version, actually this is something historians try to hide as it shows the people of Najd (the central part of Saudi Arabia) in a bad way because they look upon themslevs as the carries of the tourch of the Umma,

Your logic seem to be that becouse the people of Najd think of themselfs as protecters of the faith the rest of the Ummah became jealous of what they "think" and changed history?

Br Saudi historical record does not date back that far i am talking about documented history from the time of the events. Does it make sence to you that the people of mecca and madinah where all Kufar and becouse the people of najd tried to stop this kufar the Khalifah and the rest of the ummah tried to stop the people of najd becouse they [the khalif and the rest of the Ummah] too where all kufar and didnt want to see Islam implemented.

so to sum things up the entire Ummah where kufar except the people of najd?

as for forms of shirk, i have spoken to old people who have told me people used to seek help from the Jin, i have seen in many arabic and islamic countries people asking the dead, i have heard people with my own ears saying things like (Touch wood),

brother this was never a systemised beliefe [i can elaborate on what i mean by this if you like becouse this is the crux of the argument] the most this can ammount to is misguided indaviduals.

the prophet said in one hadeeth: the most i fear on my Umma was the small shirk (Riya) which is when you do good to show off, are these not acts of Shirk?

This is shirk al saghir its called shirk becouse by falling into it you are indirectly chalanging allahs power or authority [depending on which it is] you dont become a kafir becouse of it. The hadith was referring to shirk al Akbar brother.

Sulaiman Ibn Abdul Wahhab [Muhammads brother] adressed his brother in one of his books regarding this hadith "My brother asks: 'A hadith sharif says: "Of all that will befall you, shirk is what I fear more." Is not this a dalil of the fact that a part of this Ummah will be engaged in shirk?'

"I say: It is inferred by many other hadiths that this hadith refers to shirku-l-asghar. There are similar ahadith, narrated by Shaddad Ibn 'Aws, Abu Hurayrah and Mahmud Ibn Labid (may Allah be pleased with all of them), according to which the Prophet (sall-Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) feared that shirku-l-asghar would be committed by his Ummah. It has exactly happened as it was foretold in the hadith, and many Muslims are guilty of shirku-l-asghar.

dear brother, can you kindly write the hadeeth down in Aranic or give me the narrator of the hadeeth so i can look it up, i trust you that the hadeeth exists, i just want to see it for my self and see how it fits with things i have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears.

I couldnt find the exact hadith i was referring to brother which is the one where Allah directly promises rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] that his Ummah will not fall into shirk [al akbar] but here is another clear hadith which says the same thing.

The Hadith ash-Sharif written in Sahihayn, the two genuine Hadith books, one by al-Bukhari and the other by Muslim  states that the Holy Prophet (Sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam)  visited the graves of the martyrs of Uhud exactly one year after they died. A minbar was built in the graveyard for him to deliver  a sermon. 'Uqba ibn Amir (radi-Allahu `anh), the relater of the Hadith ash-Sharif, said, 'Rasulullah (sall-Allahu Ta`ala `alaihi wa sallam), ascended the minbar. It was the last time I saw him on the minbar.  He declared: "I do not fear whether you will become polytheists after I die. I fear that you, because of worldly interests, will  kill one another and thus be destroyed like ancient tribes."
 

Edited by rami - 15 June 2008 at 6:55am
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2008 at 6:54am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Chrysalis

I do NOT reject the Imams of Ijtihad . . . I believe they were a blessing for us Muslims, because they introduced Ijtihad and Fiqh to the Ummah like never before.

Sister i never accused you of it so i dont know why you keep assuming i am. I was arguing a point not implying anything, you shouldnt read into what i am saying and focus on my words directly.

And I consider ALL 4 schools of thought to be correct in thier respective interpretations, which is why I refuse to call myself a Hanbali, Shaafi, Maaliki or otherwise.

These terms simply indicate which of the four you follow, laymen [unqualafied people like you and me] have no right to make a distinction between any school which is why we say all four are equally correct, this beliefe is as old as the madhhabs and the ulumah said this to stop laymen from arguing over which is better becouse they are incapable of telling the difference.

You have no right to call for the ban on these terms there is no president for it in the Quran or sunnah.

WHERE AS we follow Islam ALONE, and ONLY use the esteemed, and respected Imams as helpful guidance,

I think you are following an idea or feeling of what these words mean and not the actual meaning of the words. Islam is the religion that religion is made up of Different areas of knowledge [such as Fiqh, Aqedah, Ihsan] one of these areas is the Law or fiqh, the Fiqh is not Islam itself the terms are not interchangable hence no one actually says i am Hanafi instead of muslim it just doesnt make sense your [and people in general] insistance on the idea that this is actually what people are saying when they say my fiqh is hanafi is unjustified you are arguing an emotion not facts or reality.

Which is why a muslim can sway towards the Hanafi school of thought when presented with a fiqh issue, and opt for the Shaafi interpretation in another case, depending on which is the easier one for the individual.

The hadith you quoted does not relate to this becouse two halal matters are not an issue at all. but when you are dealing between two rullings from different madhhabs and you cant tell the difference between them then it is Haram to pick the easiest according to the all Ulumah of all four madhhabs.

legal code=religion=Islam

Islam is not Fiqh sister, fiqh is a small part of what islam is about. Look at Riyadh as salihin by imam nawawi, adab al mufrad by Imam Bukhari, the Hadith Gibril which describes the different areas of the deen you cant make blanket statments like this these words all have different meanings and each has its place. I am not trying to proove you wrong sister i dont care who is wrong or right if you see something i said that is wrong insha allah you can point it out to me i am just pointing out what these words mean its the people that are using them in a way that isnt in accordance with the meaning that is found in the dictionary.

but some Muslims tend to get so carried away with the categorization, that they start dividing into Firqas.

you are absolutely right this has happened in the past and to some extent still happens today its why the ummah became very weak and fell apart [devide and conquer, the Colonial powers targeted the madhhabs first sister beffore they took down the khalifah, why do you think we have so few traditional colleges such as al azhar] but this is the people not the madhhabs themselfs. Why is it prior to the last 200 years people used these terms and it never implied anything bad, it didnt cause friction between people from different madhabs, its becouse people had Iman, Ihsan and understanding [all qualities at the same time] as the Quran says they where people of understanding, a person would say my fiqh is Hanafi or shafii and people automaticly knew he was simply saying this is the fiqh i follow and nothing more. Nowdays people read into things what ever they like regardless of whether the person intended anything or not [and as the prophet said everything is according to intention] they dont have that understanding or the qualities of sabr [which is part of the ihsan that Gibril spoke about].

Its only going to get worse sister and it has nothing to do with the madhhabs, people in general are going to behave badily about all sorts of things in life for no real reason, today you think its the madhhabs in the future it will be somthing else this is part of the signs of Qiyamah eventually people will kill people for no real reason and the person who died wont know why he was killed.

we should distance ourselves from a labelling phenomenon

This suggests that this is new, the madhhabs [legal systems] are almost as old as Islam itself and it has never been a problem in the past people see what they want to see but when you test it against reality that is when you know if something is true.

There is a REAL reason why we have four madhhabs they are not just there for show sister i suggest you get to know what the reasons are this is the only way you will know why a person HAS to follow one fiqh school rather than rely on his nafs.


Edited by rami - 15 June 2008 at 7:07am
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2008 at 11:08pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I didnt have time to reply to the following yesterday so khair insha allah.

Chrysalis

On a slightly separate note i always found the term "self-righteous" to be an entirely Christian [its roots are in christian society and a by-product of peoples rejection of that faith as i understand] phenomena it goes along with other phrases [in the behavioral aspects] such as "im not a saint....." to put it into perspective was rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] self righteous was Isa [hs] are moral people.

These terms have no place in the islamic framework muslims are obliged to right the wrongs. nowadays it has a much wider [general] meaning and is simply used as a means to stop anyone from correcting you on anything [i dont think this is what you are doing just speaking generally about the term itself and its coruption].

It also is in accordance with us being ONE Ummah, with ONE label, to enforce the brotherhood. Very humbly my own opinion.

Then you are trying to do what the sahabah could never do sister, the difference between the madhhabs primarily come from the different opinions they had about matters. The word Ummah is not a nationalistic one on the day of judgment Allah will raise up all the muslims as One ummah irrespective of what madhhab, group, sect they followed you see by Allahs estimation the Ummah of muhammad are those who believe in Allah and his prophet. there is no Wahabi/salafi ummah, Hanafi ummah, Shafii ummah, Habashi Ummah, Deobandi Ummah....etc

we are one Ummah now, this isnt why we are divided as a people, Those who call them self Hanafi have different hanafi groups, those who call themselfs Wahabi and or salafi have different groups, those who call themselfs Shafii or hanbali they all have different groups simply becouse you want to enforce the one name rule does not mean it will stop people from having different groups. People will always think differently and some people will agree with one point and disagree with another so since when in the entire history of man has that ever not happened.

Allah created us as different nations so we can know one another he literally says HE created differences in human kind its in our Fitrah sister.

With all due respect Brother, this example seems to go off on a tangent for me.

Your right sister these are weak examples, it was just the first thing that popped into my head i think its enough to say the prophet at times did not try to stop difference between people and there are clear examples of him choosing to stay silent rather than to set people right [out of wisdom].

What confusion is faced by a person that refuses to attach himself to a group versus one who does?


This is what you dont understand i personnel am Hanafi in my fiqh, i am attached to no group hanafi or otherwise it simply means i get my fiqh from Hanafi legal texts or Ulumah which ever happens to be available. If someone starts a Hanafi fan club i am not obliged to go join, that is there prerogative and has nothing to with the deen....Yet my fiqh is still known as hanafi and to someone who actually knows the differences between madhhabs to any extent will automatically know what i practice just by knowing that word.

The only confusion I see will be faced by other ppl who are curious about which Imam we 'follow',

this is politics mixed with the madhhabs you can easily leave the politics out and still have the madhhab, NO imam is the madhhab sister people can know the ruling of a madhhab without attaching them selfs to any imam its simply peoples choices to do so. i realise in pakitan that many people do  this but we should separate the issues so we can see them more clearly.


Saladin

First, nowhere in the Quran or hadeeth can we find muslims being addressed as anything else than Muslims or Mu'mins.


What does the word muslim mean, what does the word mu'min mean, All Ulumah and i mean ALL Uluma know that when allah calls someone by a name he is highlighting the fact that  this person is the embodiment of what that word means. For example he calls a group of people Sidiqun [extremely truthfull] not to label them with a hip new name that means nothing but to say they ARE sidiqun. He calls other people munafiqun why?.....or other people Ahl al Kitab why?....what about the people of the right hand or the left and the people of nearness are these just word that represent nothing.

This tells us that right and wrong is known according to what the LABEL means.....so what does the word madhhab mean what does the word hanafi, shafii or salafi mean. Its ironic that the ones who started this anti madhhab phenomenon chose to LABEL themselfs salafi's is that label wrong also.

Which Imam ever told his disciples to follow "his" teachings to be in the right path?


Muhammad Ibn Abdul wahhab, he was no more wrong in saying this is my opinion than Imam Abu hanifah said this is my opinion people are free to choose which they prefer to follow the LABEL attached to both does not stop the fact that a body of work based on each respective imams teachings exist and different people follow each....according to what you  are saying we should make it taboo to LABEL this body of work becouse that will magically stop people from disagreeing?

Rather we see them telling muslims to " follow the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet" and to "put aside their opinions for a saheeh hadith". Were not their opinions made in the absence of hadith?

And the Quran and sunnah say to follow those whom Allah gave knowledge to and put in authority the two quotes are not separable brother.

there opinions explained the sahih hadith and ijtihad was used in its absence, you may think you know what a hadith is talking about but when you read the explanation of an expert in tafsir you will admit you knew nothing. Do all people have the same level of intelligence....NO....so some people Allah himself made it obligatory for them to follow others he says it clearly in the Quran.

What does the act of following look like....or entail?


Edited by rami - 16 June 2008 at 12:44am
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2008 at 2:51am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

 hence no one actually says i am Hanafi instead of muslim it just doesnt make sense your [and people in general] insistance on the idea that this is actually what people are saying
I am referring to instances when ppl attach so much importance to bieng a Hanafi or Hanbali, that the larger aspect of bieng a muslim takes a back-seat. They will meet on religous events, and on meeting a new-muslim, stranger will immdediatley inquire 'So are u a Hanbali?' 'Are u a Shia/Sunni?' . . to the extent that groups start to demand that the this 'label' be menioned officially on paperwork and govt. forms ! And believes me that happens not only in Pakistan, but India, and many other countries. (Perhaps I should remove my location from my Avatar now, since members now automatically assume that my opinions are based on what I see in Pakistan!) Then starts the trivial-yet-blown up debate amongst groupls and labels when they find out abt each other's 'madhab' about how Imam Hanbal's school is better vs another.


The hadith you quoted does not relate to this becouse two halal matters are not an issue at all. but when you are dealing between two rullings from different madhhabs and you cant tell the difference between them then it is Haram to pick the easiest according to the all Ulumah of all four madhhabs.
 So, are u saying that if I am faced with 2 different rulings, from 2 different madhabs, and I choose the easier/more practical one. . .then it is haram? Why? Pl clarify. I believe the Hadith is very apt to this e.g, but pl clarify.


 
 
why do you think we have so few traditional colleges such as al azhar
On an entirely different note, Al-Azhar has produced some great work, yet they too have fallen prey to government pressure and thier fatawa are sometimes wht the govt wishes.

 
 
 today you think its the madhhabs in the future it will be somthing else this is part of the signs of Qiyamah
True brother. But just bcz we can forsee that, does not mean we not do anything about it. The BIGGEST threat to the Ummah today is breaking up into sects. And as muslims, it is our duty to remove any causes/elements to sects/breaking up. And I have felt, as have others, that sometimes simple 'innocent' labels such as these are what cause sub-groups to form, and divide etc etc. There can be no such thing as a 'ban' like you said I was rooting for. The solution is islamic awareness and stressing on other more islamically correct labels such as Ummah and Muslim.



This suggests that this is new, the madhhabs [legal systems] are almost as old as Islam itself and it has never been a problem in the past people see what they want to see but when you test it against reality that is when you know if something is true.
Brother, today we are faced with numerous issues on a large scale that were NEVER an issue in the past. Terrorism, sectarian violence, divides etc etc. Which is why there was no need to tackle the issue in the past, but IS an issue we need to adderess now.


There is a REAL reason why we have four madhhabs they are not just there for show sister i suggest you get to know what the reasons are this is the only way you will know why a person HAS to follow one fiqh school rather than rely on his nafs.
Brother, the reason we have 4 schools is because 4 different ppl came up with solutions to fiqh with different approaches, ALL in accordance with Quran, Sunnah and Hadith. . . the reason all 4 r accepted is because ALL FOUR are correct in thier interpretations. Which is why a person can choose to follow any of thier interpretations at any time without having to restrict him/herself to ONE. Thus eliminating the need for a label.
 
I chose not to respond to the other statements, because I will be getting repititive. . . since it all goes back to my point of preventing rifts/sects from forming infavour of an ummah and the importance of a common label, Muslim.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 16 June 2008 at 3:44am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem


On a slightly separate note i always found the term "self-righteous" to be an entirely Christian [its roots are in christian society and a by-product of peoples rejection of that faith as i understand] phenomena it goes along with other phrases [in the behavioral aspects] such as "im not a saint....." to put it into perspective was rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] self righteous was Isa [hs] are moral people.

These terms have no place in the islamic framework muslims are obliged to right the wrongs. nowadays it has a much wider [general] meaning and is simply used as a means to stop anyone from correcting you on anything [i dont think this is what you are doing just speaking generally about the term itself and its coruption].
Brother, with all due respect, you tend to go too deep into the literal meaning of words. But even if taken literally, there is nothing 'christian' abt the term, niether did I find any such roots when I looked it up. Infact I think self-righteousness is wrong : (Piously sure of one's own righteousness; moralistic. , insistent on one's rectitude) Da'wah and nahi-anil-munkar are duties of a muslim, I agree. But when one says that they are not being self-righteous is when they are admitting thier fallibility, and possibility that they may be wrong. Hence when I am about to call something wrong, I believe I should mention I do not mean to be self-righteous, since with my limited knowledge I cannot assuredly label ppl being wrong. Infact according to its meaning. . .No muslim should be self-righteous (or holier-than-thou), since it goes against the principles of Islam (Humility, etc)


Then you are trying to do what the sahabah could never do sister
,
Brother, not all sahabah could prevent sects, but they tried , since it was thier duty as muslims to do so. Just because they did not/could not succeed, does not resolves us of our duty to do so, in our own time. And to continue trying to rectify things that the sahabah could not do does not mean it becomes a blasphemy. By suggesting that I am trying to do something they couldnt, you seem to be implying that I am wrong, or I shouldnt dare go where the Sahabah didnt/couldnt ! (with all due respect to the sahabah)


Allah created us as different nations so we can know one another he literally says HE created differences in human kind its in our Fitrah sister.
Brother, you seem to have gone off the tangent from defending the madhab labels to now justifying sects/rifts ! Brother we NEED to be stressing the one-label rule now MORE than EVER. True, Allah created us as nations. . . I am aware of that verse. But brother, that doesnt justify sects! Can't u see what the problem with the Ummah today is??? We are every-single nationality/group before we are muslims today! This is why the USA can attack a muslim-country today and it is no longer considered an attack on muslims today, rather an attack on a 'nation' ! We have Afghanistan back-stabbing Pakistan, Kuwait backing attacks on Iraq and whatnot. Our identity as a muslim should NEVER take the backseat to our nationality. I do not consider nationalities unislamic. 


the prophet at times did not try to stop difference between people and there are clear examples of him choosing to stay silent rather than to set people right [out of wisdom].
Brother, I would appreciate if you coul pl give an e.g out of Hadith/sunnah. Because though the Prophet did choose to stay silent at times. I dont think it was ever in the face of differences. There were instances when the Prophet remained silent on occasions where sahabah had different opinions and solutions to an issue at hand, and he was waiting for Allah's wahi, or decision. Since the word 'differences' denotes quarrels or controversies. And the sahabah always followed the islamic ettiqute on conflicts, unlike today's muslims.
 
 people can know the ruling of a madhhab without attaching them selfs to any imam its simply peoples choices to do so.
Thats is what the brunt of the problem is brother. That is often exactly what ppl do. Hero-worship / imam-worship is the greatest issue today. And just by saying that it only happens in Pakistan *sigh* or is not rampant. . does not make it true brother. You are perhaps forgetting that a large majority today is muslim by-name, and are uneducated with in-adequate knowledge of Islam, which is why they need to veered away frm the labelling phenomenon. . . since they are more prone to form such staunch die-hard sects. . . and gullible.


Its ironic that the ones who started this anti madhhab phenomenon chose to LABEL themselfs salafi's is that label wrong also.
Yes, any 'label' that needs to be given importance, and an identity other than 'MUSLIM' is irrelevant, unnecessary and prone to fitnah/firqa.

Which Imam ever told his disciples to follow "his" teachings to be in the right path?

Muhammad Ibn Abdul wahhab,
 
Perhaps I shdnt interfere, but according to me, what I assumed Brother Saladin was reffering to by the word 'Imam' were the 4-imams, Hanbal, Hanafi etc. I dont think he was referring to all imams. I think he was saying that none of these above Imama ever asked ppl to follow them versus the other. Correct me if i am wrong brother Saladin.
 
 
 

 


Edited by Chrysalis - 16 June 2008 at 3:46am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2008 at 3:25am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I am referring to instances when ppl attach so much importance to bieng a Hanafi or Hanbali, that the larger aspect of bieng a muslim takes a back-seat.


How have you managed to detach what it is to be a Hanafi or Hanbalii from Islam itself, you are not talking about some sports club where the fans are so fanatical that they forget what is important in life.

It seems that you are nit picking on human flaws rather than actual things that are haram in the religion.

They will meet on religious events, and on meeting a new-muslim, stranger will immediately inquire 'So are u a Hanbali?' 'Are u a Shia/Sunni?' . . to the extent that groups start to demand that the this 'label' be menioned officially on paperwork and govt. forms ! And believes me that happens not only in Pakistan, but India, and many other countries.


So explain to me exactly how that is an issue with the madhhab is there some fatwa that makes these things imperative, is there some Usuli principle that stresses that this must happen, does following a madhhab automatically produce psychologically challenged individuals....no you are over simplifying things. Your examples are nothing more than bad Dawah tactics, your reaction to this is as extreme as the people you critisise.

(Perhaps I should remove my location from my Avatar now, since members now automatically assume that my opinions are based on what I see in Pakistan!) Then starts the trivial-yet-blown up debate amongst groupls and labels when they find out abt each other's 'madhab' about how Imam Hanbal's school is better vs another.


Again what does that have to do with the madhhab learn to separate Islamic law from individuals [i.e politics], is Islam judged based on the actions of Yazid ibn muawiyah or its doctrines. This is why i stress on what a madhhab actually is becouse people just look at individuals and think that person is the madhhab you arent behaving much better than a westerner who looks at an arab and thinks he is a terrorist and that all Muslims are terrorists.

So, are u saying that if I am faced with 2 different rulings, from 2 different madhabs, and I choose the easier/more practical one. . .then it is haram? Why? Pl clarify. I believe the Hadith is very apt to this e.g, but pl clarify.

Sister first of all how can two rulings exist about a single issue both say different things and both be right, the wrong ruling is under Allahs rahmah and the person who follows it wont be punished as allah has lifted responsibility from him [according to the Quran and sunnah]. The hadith you speak of is about choosing between two options that are both permissible in reality not two rulings from different madhhabs which say two different things its a completely different issue.

Imam  Nawawi was asked for a formal legal opinion on whether pursuing dispensations [the easiest rulings] in such a manner was permissible;

(Question:) "Is it permissible for someone of a particular school to follow a different school in matters that will be of benefit to him, and to seek out dispensations?"

He answered (Allah be well pleased with him), "It is not permissible to seek out dispensations [A: meaning it is unlawful, and the person who does is corrupt (fasiq)], and  Allah knows best" (Fatawa al-Imam al-Nawawi (y105),113).

you can read more here. There are conditions to seeking dispensations. 

On an entirely different note, Al-Azhar has produced some great work, yet they too have fallen prey to government pressure and thier fatawa are sometimes wht the govt wishes.

Other ulumah have said the same thing sister but i also think they are equally victim to dubious reporting by unprofessional reporters. Many of the delicate rulings are technical in nature and the reporter often has no clue about this as the fatwa never seeks to explain the logic behind the ruling [to minimise confusion] but simply state what the conclusion is so the fatwah is often mistranslated.
 
True brother. But just bcz we can forsee that, does not mean we not do anything about it. The BIGGEST threat to the Ummah today is breaking up into sects.

breaking up into sects is the result sister its not the cause, trace back this issue to its roots and you will find psychology can give you the answer, from the way the person is raised to life experiences, dreams and  humiliations. Western countries are now just beginning to recognise this and there views towards foreign people is changing. One example [which is indicative of the wider portion of the community that is bigoted in general] is a conversation i had with an Australian women she does not like the idea of keeping Australian borders open, 20 years ago she would have made some racist remarks  about why but instead she said that they cant assimilate that well because of the psychological scars or baggage they carry from life in there own countries. She wasn't an educated woman by any means sister but she didnt trivialise the issue to simply i dont like there skin color and THAT is the reason why they shouldn't be here.

And as muslims, it is our duty to remove any causes/elements to sects/breaking up. And I have felt, as have others, that sometimes simple 'innocent' labels such as these are what cause sub-groups to form, and divide etc etc.


With all due respect i think this is an over simplistic analysis sister, there needs to be a deep study into the causes, just like Australians in general no longer say hate is the reason why Palestinians are so ready to blow themselfs up simple labels are not the answer to this issue.

Brother, the reason we have 4 schools is because 4 different ppl came up with solutions to fiqh with different approaches, ALL in accordance with Quran, Sunnah and Hadith.

You aren't entirely right your just missing a large piece of the picture and don't seem to familiar with what it is that was actually done, if i was to ask you to elaborate on what the solutions where can you tell me.

. . the reason all 4 r accepted is because ALL FOUR are correct in thier interpretations. Which is why a person can choose to follow any of thier interpretations at any time without having to restrict him/herself to ONE. Thus eliminating the need for a label.

Please see my link above for a more detailled reason of why and how we can choose rullings from a different madhhab, its not so cut and dry, there is a need to follow just one but you MAY follow a ruling from another madhhab if you strongly feel it is more correct. If you think you can just prance around and pick rulings at will from any of the four with out proper investigation of each and every single ruling for you self then you are sorely mistaken sister as you need a real reason to follow a different madhhab, the only people who have this kind of dispensation are those with low intelligence or completely uneducated. I vageuly remember seeing a badily quoted piece on something about this from Ibn Qayim or Ibn Taymiyah it was badily quoted becouse the person who quoted didnt understand what it plainly said and assumed the people they where talking about was everyone from the Albert einstiens to the Bedouin in the desert.

just to be clear works such as fiqh as sunnah are not accepted legal works by any madhhab sister as it goes against what the Four rightly guided Imams have done and ignorantly/arrogantly/impossibly tries to combine them.

Insha allah i will reply to your later post another time.



Edited by rami - 17 June 2008 at 5:22pm
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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