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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Hamzah
 
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Quote Hamzah Replybullet Posted: 09 June 2008 at 10:20pm
There is no such thing as Wahabi Madhab, what people don't know is that Mohammad bin Abdulwahab was a man born in the year 1115 hijra long before oil;

He was from the central part of what is known now as Saudi Arabia the region had gone astray, idols were worshipped, he preached the faith and tried to bring his people back to the right path, he was following the school of Ahmad bin Hanbal.

After studying in Makka, Madina and Basra, he returned to his native province where he tried to preach the faith, he was expelled from his native Oyainah central Saudi Arabia ( just north west of Riyadh) by the then prince bin Muamar as he didn't accept the Islamic teaching of Mohammad bin Abdulwahab as tribal leaders preferred having control over illiterate people.

he went to the Othman ally Ibn Rasheed who was the ruler of Riyadh at the time, he also refused to protect him or help him ignite the dawa, while Mohammad bin Saud the then leader of an area called Direayah gave the man protection and helped him spread the Dawa.

In my eyes he is a person who gave his life to bring back Islam to the central part of Saudi Arabia, one of his great quotes was: (I do not call to follow a special sect nor do I ask to follow this or that Imam, I only call to Allah the only lord and to the teaching of his prophet Mohammad peace be upon him, if I receive from any of my Imam's and teachers something which contradicts what the prophet says then I will ignore it for the messenger of mercy can never say but the truth),

He died a poor man, I do not follow the Ahmad bin Hanbal teachings, I do not come from his area, I am from the south west mountains of the Arabian peninsula where the Shafi Madhab is predominant, but as I said the man was in my eyes a man who dedicated his life to bringing back Tawheed to the Central part of the Arabian peninsula, he was a follower of Ahmad Bin Hanbal Madhab, he never claimed a Madhab of his own may Allah have mercy on his soul.

What brother Rami was refering to was King Abdulaziz and his men the so called brothers of Allah Obayers, if they claimed to follow Mohammad bin Abdulwahab then it was because he was widely regarded throughout the land although he had died almost 100 years before that, at this time politcal gain under the blanket of religion was achieved but never in the time of Mohammad Bin Abdulwahab, as he and Mohammad bin Saud where rightous men serving Allah, wallah Alam.

Finally:
There is no such thing as Wahabi Madhab, I think it is something the American admin. 1st started using to try to isolate extremists and terrorists from all the main 4 Sunni Madhabs making them less favorable and easier to isolate and fight.

Allah knows best.



Edited by Hamzah - 09 June 2008 at 10:53pm
"Whosoever fears Allah, he will appoint for him a way out, and provide for him from where he does not expect"
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2008 at 10:09pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Sister if your message is that general in nature then i am sorry but it is not realistic, it espouses some sort of higher moral ground as if using a label of any type other than Islam or muslim is wrong when in reality that isn't the case.

Rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] used to label his sahabah by many nicknames it was actually the custom of the arabs to do such things, Abu Bakrs name is not Abu Bakr, Imam Abu Hanifa did not have a daughter called hanifah. This establishes the general permissibility of labeling things although i personally think intellectually we have sunk very low as an Ummah to actually need a fatwah or ruling on using labels its just common sense.

when a person says his fiqh is hanafi its for practical reasons and to avoid confusion, just like saying in Pakistan you have the pakistani legal system if you want to visit that country you will come under the jurisdiction of the pakistani government and its legal system not the australian legal system where i am from. But since there is no more khalifah who rules by one of the four schools of thought the labels by default have become more personal since after the fall of the khalifah each individual was responsible for himself and he had to make shore he was personally living by Allahs laws in matters that normally the Islamic government should have been responsible for.

Since arabic is the language of the islamic religion you have to go by what the word madhhab means in that language you cant simply say the word means religion in my language and that is how everybody else is using it. The word does not mean religion in arabic and has never been the equivalent of religion it simply refers to the legal code itself that one subscribes to nothing more.

but what I am asking is, why the need to label yourself with a school of thought?

Sister the Uluma used to put what school of thought they followed in there last names, al Hanafi, al Shafii, al Maliki, al Hanbali you do it so people know what you believe or follow, its people that are the problem not the labels. A person can pick any label about anything and make trouble out of it...."hey your a woman they are all dumb"....and off we go with the sexist ignorant rants, now ask your self is there something wrong with calling your self a woman or is the person who chooses to make trouble the one thats wrong.


Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2008 at 10:46pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Br Hamzah,

Mohammad bin Abdulwahab was a man born in the year 1115 hijra long before oil;

please read my words carefully, i said they used oil money to spread thier ideology to other regions, the wahabi/salafi sect did not spread outside of saudi arabia untill after the country became oil rich so i was referring to modern times not the time of muhammad ibn abdul wahhab.

He was from the central part of what is known now as Saudi Arabia the region had gone astray, idols were worshipped, he preached the faith and tried to bring his people back to the right path,

This is absolutely wrong, Allah in a hadith found in shahih Bukhari promised rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] that he would protect his ummah from shirk and that he had nothing to fear in regards to that.

This is the saudi version of history which everyone disagrees with.

he was following the school of Ahmad bin Hanbal.

jazak allah khair for clearing that up, i said that a while back to a so called salafi [from the la madhhabiyah variety] and he almost chocked and thought i was making that up. there are so many different "sallafi' groups out there all having different beliefs but calling them selfs salafi's or wahabi's its hard to keep up with which type you are dealing with although i will say the saudi salafis/wahabi's/hanbalis are the more reasonable or rather the ones with with better adab if that makes sense, that could just be my experience allahu allam.

I dont think he followed the Hanbali madhhab that closely becouse from what i have seen [of thier various beliefs] and heard from Hanbali ulama [or rather Uluma who have spoken to hanbali Uluma] that many of his teachings differ and to my understanding are nothing less than new ijtihad while he was not a mujtahid to be doing such things.

Can you explain how he was a follower of a madhhab while many people who claim to follow him reject anything to do with a madhhab.


Edited by rami - 10 June 2008 at 11:12pm
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2008 at 11:09pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Sister chrysalis i would like to quote something from Mufti Muhammad Taqi uthmani's book "The legal Status of following a madhhab" as i think it gives a sense of history to this whole debate, i also think its relevant to my question to brother hamzah.

"There is no dearth of Books on the subject of Taqleed and Ijtihad and I had no idea that i would be writing anything on it. However, certain reasons compelled me to write down this treatise.

When in 1963, the editor of Faran, Mahir ul-Qadri, suggested that i should contribute an article on taqleed, I was disinclined to engage in debate on the question, as, indeed, my respected father, Mawlana Mufti Muhammad Shafi, always kept himself away from it. However, I acceded to his request in the hope that i might explain the issue and invite the warring parties to think coolly and cease to argue.

Praise belongs to Allah, the article was well received when it was published in 1963, in the Faran, and several other magazines of india and pakistan and some muslims of junagadh reprinted it and published it in the form of a booklet.

Nevertheless, though I had avoided a debate on the issue, the people, who disavow taqleed and reject that the imams of ijtihad should be followed responded with heavy criticism, Mawlana Ismail Salafi [ra] was one of them. His cristisism was published in al-I'tisam in its thirteen issues and then annexed to his book Tahreek Azadi-e-Fikr aur Shah waliullah Ki Tajdeedi Masa'i.

Another response came from a man who accuses the Imams of Ijtihad as inventors of Shariah and thier followers as infidels and polytheists and the islamic fiqh as self-tailored. It was entitled at Tahqeeq fi- Jawab at-Taqleed.

A third response was published in a monthly magazine of hyderabad Daccon."


Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote Hamzah Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2008 at 4:47am
Bismillah
Assalam Alaikum wa rahmatullah

Brother Rami wrote:

please read my words carefully, i said they used oil money to spread thier ideology to other regions, the wahabi/salafi sect did not spread outside of saudi arabia untill after the country became oil rich so i was referring to modern times not the time of muhammad ibn abdul wahhab.



Forgive me brother for not understanding you clearly on this note.


Brother Rami wrote:

This is absolutely wrong, Allah in a hadith found in shahih Bukhari promised rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] that he would protect his ummah from shirk and that he had nothing to fear in regards to that.

This is the saudi version of history which everyone disagrees with.



This is not a Saudi version, actually this is something historians try to hide as it shows the people of Najd (the central part of Saudi Arabia) in a bad way because they look upon themslevs as the carries of the tourch of the Umma, as for forms of shirk, i have spoken to old people who have told me people used to seek help from the Jin, i have seen in many arabic and islamic countries people asking the dead, i have heard people with my own ears saying things like (Touch wood), the prophet said in one hadeeth: the most i fear on my Umma was the small shirk (Riya) which is when you do good to show off, are these not acts of Shirk?
dear brother, can you kindly write the hadeeth down in Aranic or give me the narrator of the hadeeth so i can look it up, i trust you that the hadeeth exists, i just want to see it for my self and see how it fits with things i have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears


Brother Rami wrote:

Can you explain how he was a follower of a madhhab while many people who claim to follow him reject anything to do with a madhhab.



Brother Rami, so many of his teachings come from Ahmad bin Hanbal and Ibn Taymiah, i agree he has taken a more conservative view on some issues but he is a follower of that madhab, it is the official madhab n Saudi Arabia, as for those who follow him and reject anything to do with madhab, i have not come across such people but i trust you when you say they are there, it's funny when they say they follow him and deny following Madhab, isn't following him a Madhab?




Jazak Allah khair brother for your polite reply, what i wrote represnts my humble view and understanding, if i am right then it was from the blessings of Allah, if i am wrong then from myself and Shaytan, may Allah forgive us all.

Edited by Hamzah - 11 June 2008 at 5:02am
"Whosoever fears Allah, he will appoint for him a way out, and provide for him from where he does not expect"
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Quote Hamzah Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2008 at 5:23am
Bismillah
Assalam Alaikum
Brother Rami, Barakallhu feek akhee
i think i have found the hadeeth
The Prophet PBUH said: i do not fear shirk from you.
the translators of hadeeth like Al Qurtubi said it was ment for the prophets Sahabah, also i found many hadeeth in which the prophet wards his Umma from shirk
examples:
The prophet PBUH said: (he who has sworn by anything apart from allah has commited shirk)
i have heard many people even where i reside now in Bahrain swear by the heads of their fathers, i have heard many other arabs swear by the lives of loved ones.

The prophet PBUH said: (he who has stopped doing something because he thinks it's a bad omen has commited shirk)
one of my friends never liked watching the game of his favorite team with me cuz he thought they always loose when he watches the game with me, i had warned him that this was shirk.

There is one hadeeth in which the prophet states clearly that the day of judgment will not come till a tribe called Daws which is a branch of Zahran tribe (the great hadeeth narrator Abu Hurayrah was from Daws), they will go back to worshipping an idol called THUL KHULAISAH who was a leader they used to worship when the prophets messege came.

Subhanal Allahum wa bihamdik Ashhad al Ilah Illa ant, Astagfiruka wa atoub elayk.
"Whosoever fears Allah, he will appoint for him a way out, and provide for him from where he does not expect"
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2008 at 6:02am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

 the people, who disavow taqleed and reject that the imams of ijtihad should be followed responded with heavy criticism,

Another response came from a man who accuses the Imams of Ijtihad as inventors of Shariah
 
Brother. Just to make things clear, I do NOT reject the Imams of Ijtihad . . . I believe they were a blessing for us Muslims, because they introduced Ijtihad and Fiqh to the Ummah like never before.
 
And I consider ALL 4 schools of thought to be correct in thier respective interpretations, which is why I refuse to call myself a Hanbali, Shaafi, Maaliki or otherwise.  Doing that is suggesting that I follow thier teachings, WHERE AS we follow Islam ALONE, and ONLY use the esteemed, and respected Imams as helpful guidance, so I may better pratise my deen. The Prophet said in a hadith that if you are presented with two equally halal options, opt for the easier one. Which is why a muslim can sway towards the Hanafi school of thought when presented with a fiqh issue, and opt for the Shaafi interpretation in another case, depending on which is the easier one for the individual. This is keeping the Prophet's Hadith in mind.
 
Like I said Brother, I never insisted my meaning of Madhzab was correct, infact I THINK I mentioned that I may be wrong. (However, acording to ME, its the same thing since legal code=religion=Islam. ) But no issues there. I agree with you.
 
Like I said before, and there is simply no USE whatsoever of attaching a label-other than-muslim with our name. WHAT is achieved by branding a 'label' to us? Perhaps not you Brother . . . but some Muslims tend to get so carried away with the categorization, that they start dividing into Firqas.
 
Which gives rise to Threads like these *I have heard that so-and-so madhab/sect/section are not muslims* or "Hanbalis are better than Hanafis" . . .
 
TRUE that it may represent your school of though, but again Brother . . . why the need? Is a muslim defined by what school of thought we follow? Does it aid your daily activities as a muslim? Does it effect your faith? However what it DOES do is create a confusion amongst the minds of less-aware Muslims AS WELL AS Non-Muslims , who start believeing that one HAS to be part of a certain group/sect/school of thought. It also creates the notions of divisions in Islam, and this portrays an incorrect and wrongful image. As a result, we should distance ourselves from a labelling phenomenon which gives rise to so many rifts. Something Allah asked us not to do. "..And hold on to the rope of Allah, and do not divide into sects"
 
I can only add by sharing an anecdote of a non-muslim who wished to convert, but kept taking his time. . . on inquiry replied that he did had not decided what 'type' of Islam was the right choice. . .
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2008 at 6:32am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

 as if using a label of any type other than Islam or muslim is wrong when in reality that isn't the case.
Brother, I will try not to be self-rightous by saying its wrong. . . but if we insist on using labels, Muslim is by far enough for me, and says all I would ever wish to to say about myself, it is also enough to represent whom I 'follow', and to convey my beliefs, or tell ppl about my code of life. It also is in accordance with us being ONE Ummah, with ONE label, to enforce the brotherhood. Very humbly my own opinion.
 

Rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] used to label his sahabah by many nicknames it was actually the custom of the arabs to do such things, Abu Bakrs name is not Abu Bakr, Imam Abu Hanifa did not have a daughter called hanifah. This establishes the general permissibility of labeling things although i personally think intellectually we have sunk very low as an Ummah to actually need a fatwah or ruling on using labels its just common sense.
With all due respect Brother, this example seems to go off on a tangent for me. Since there is nothing wrong with nicknames, and they are entirely different from labels. Since nicknames denote the closeness of a person to another. WHILST in our case labels denote beliefs, and 'brand' a person, Labelling is what sets something aside as different from the others (mainstream Islam) No need for a fatwa Brother, nobody is saying labels are haraam. . . it depends on how/why we use them.

when a person says his fiqh is hanafi its for practical reasons and to avoid confusion, 
What confusion and what practical reasons? What confusion is faced by a person that refuses to attach himself to a group versus one who does? The only confusion I see will be faced by other ppl who are curious about which Imam we 'follow', and do not get an answer to thier question. Until you have an Islamic state, the problem of Jurisprudence doesnt even arise. . . and even if it does, simply solve the problem using Qur'an and Sunna and the Fiqh put forward by ur favoured scholar.
 



Sister the Uluma used to put what school of thought they followed in there last names, al Hanafi, al Shafii, al Maliki, al Hanbali you do it so people know what you believe or follow,
Again Brother, I ask. . .why do ppl 'need' to know which 'madhab' you believe or follow? APART from the fact that u are a muslim? How does that effect the way they treat you or judge you?
 
 
Having said that, I see that you feel strongly about the issue just like I do. I am willing to put the issue to rest, because my intention is not to be disrespectful or feud. I shall try and put the case to rest, unless I feel there is something I should respond to.
 
Regards,
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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