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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2008 at 3:42am
 
 The sects are very much a reality. There is no running away from it now. If the Ulema of the middle ages or recent past did not do anything good to resolve the differences then it is no use denying them. The sects are mentioned in the Quran and it is advised that Muslims should not divide into sects... Something that was forbidden is already here with us.
 
 It is not the sect that is so bad. One can live with differences of opinion. But when one starts abusing others for their beliefs, that is bad. As a Muslim, we are told to allow and adjust (admit, tolerate) the beliefs of other faiths then why did not the maulvis teach good lessons tot he poor muslims to behave themselves about each other??
 
 There was a time in India when there was not a single Muslim avaialable. All were kaafirs. Who was responsible for that? It is possible that now some people are desisting from those bad ideas.
 
 Just changing a label or removing it will not be useful. If we say there are no sects, it will be denying the truth and the problem will be there all the time.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2008 at 3:46am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Br while i agree with everything you are saying in your post a madhhab is not a sect, nor are the different madhhab groups, this is a simple reality please check the definitions. if we cant agree on the language then no one will know what the other is talking about.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 17 June 2008 at 10:21pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem


Brother, with all due respect, you tend to go too deep into the literal meaning of words. But even if taken literally, there is nothing 'christian' abt the term, niether did I find any such roots when I looked it up.

Essentially the english language and its development is inseparable from the history of the Christian people. Ive lived in this country long enough to know how it used to be used and how it is used today among other terms. You are right about the literal aspect sister, generally i am interested in the reality of things, there state or condition in relation to how Allah created our nature and how he has asked us to be i.e Islam. Ive found that people who tend to focus entirely on what people imply and not what they say are essentially susceptible and suffering from waswasa if not outright slaves to it and thats putting it nicely.

This isnt something ive realised out of thin air this is plainly what Imam an nawawi himself said among many other Uluma who have described the human condition and states in relation to spiritual and physical influences such as shaytan [hmm....that sounds like the title of a thesis].

peoples behavior is dictated by how society acts and behaves as it defines the norm, most are not inwardly strong enough to resist such influence on there minds. When you let Allah decide what is normal in your life by giving his will the importance it deserves in your life and you live in an Immoral society/world/time what is normal to most people is not normal for you, there are people of different insights levels of intelligence and other factors which allow people to see the reality of things [essentially humans are deluded otherwise this world would be different] to differing degrees so you may not reach the same conclusions i have even though we may study the same thing, Having said all that i am not a saint sister or perfect.

Da'wah and nahi-anil-munkar are duties of a muslim, I agree. But when one says that they are not being self-righteous is when they are admitting thier fallibility, and possibility that they may be wrong.


I will admit im nitpicking here but certain terms hit a nerve with me especially when Muslims use them. The word is currently derogatory in western society and does nothing more than to stop people from thinking along righteous lines.

Words influence peoples psychology not just the word but the way it is phrased or how the language is structured it promotes certain behavior or attitude and conjures up imagery in the mind which a person then relates to or disagrees with. If arabs spoke the same arabic that the Quran uses which essentially was the normal language of Arab society back then that alone would have been enough to right most wrongs in the muslim world today. Why do you think the non muslims in the prophets time used to cover there ears when the Quran was being recited not because it had magical properties [although the words of allah do have a spiritual effect] but because of the way its language was structured which allowed it to penetrate there minds [or psychological barriers] and caused them to think along the correct lines or correct trains of thought.

It literally raised people UP morally by hearing it, sayidinah Umar [ra] is one such example.

Maybe i could go further into why these terms are Christian in nature and the result of that religions impact on peoples psychology but ill leave it here as the post is long enough as it is.


Brother, not all sahabah could prevent sects,

Although you are right in saying the sahabah could not stop sects from forming that wasnt what i was referring to. i meant the sahabah disagreed among them selfs and they couldn't all come to the same conclusion on everything.

By suggesting that I am trying to do something they couldnt, you seem to be implying that I am wrong, or I shouldnt dare go where the Sahabah didnt/couldnt ! (with all due respect to the sahabah)


You are wrong in calling for the unification of the madhhabs by getting rid of labels and with all due respect its naive and ignorant of what it is the madhhabs are and the actual work they have done. Dont take my words in the general sense im being specific and brief as i dont want to sit here and explain the different Principles and Ijtihad that the Ulumah have done over the years in various sciences such as Aqeedah, language and tafsir which can never be combined.

No one has absolute knowledge to say this sahabahs opinion was right and this other one was wrong you can only have opinions about the matter.

Brother, you seem to have gone off the tangent from defending the madhab labels to now justifying sects/rifts !


im not justifying sects, if you knew the proper islamic definition of what a sect is then you would see that. Many ignorant people i met [referring to the older arab generations] actually think a difference in Fiqh constitutes a sect, an ounce of common sense would tell you if you where to count all the different groups who differed in fiqh the number would be in the hundreds not 73 and thus that hadith can never refer to simple or slight difference in fiqh so these groups are not as doomsday as people are making them out to be.

regarding rifts i am saying you cant stop them the problem isnt the labels its the people.

This is why the USA can attack a muslim-country today and it is no longer considered an attack on muslims today, rather an attack on a 'nation' ! We have Afghanistan back-stabbing Pakistan, Kuwait backing attacks on Iraq and whatnot. Our identity as a muslim should NEVER take the backseat to our nationality. I do not consider nationalities unislamic. 


You are clearly confusing nationalism with islam, i would also suggest studying islamic history as muslims did not create these countries they where forced on us, divide and conquer was the imperial slogan.

Brother, I would appreciate if you coul pl give an e.g out of Hadith/sunnah.

rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] in a hadith said that he would have answered all our questions i.e resolve all the issues but he didnt want to burden us with to many laws like the jews where burdened becouse they kept asking Musa [hs] about the minutest things. There are also clear instances in which the sahabah came to him having interpreted his words in various ways and he absolutely stayed silent on the matter he wasn't waiting for Gibril to bring him an answer he knew what he said beffore and didn't clarify. If i had time i would look up the hadiths there authentic.

sorry for the long reply.


Edited by rami - 18 June 2008 at 5:11am
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote yasmina Replybullet Posted: 23 August 2008 at 10:54am
 
 
      Wahabbi is not mazhab.subhan Allah!our muslims  uneducated about islam.Did you know,where came from terminology....Wahabbi?.Did you Know who was Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab?.actually he was great person.Subhan Allah......The religion Allah islam....the goal one,you should be know about tauheed,because after,koran and sunnah,it's so important. who knows that,Allah doesn't love FITNA.
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yusufrafi
 
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Quote yusufrafi Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2008 at 5:28am
Originally posted by Hamzah

There is no such thing as Wahabi Madhab, what people don't know is that Mohammad bin Abdulwahab was a man born in the year 1115 hijra long before oil;

He was from the central part of what is known now as Saudi Arabia the region had gone astray, idols were worshipped, he preached the faith and tried to bring his people back to the right path, he was following the school of Ahmad bin Hanbal.

After studying in Makka, Madina and Basra, he returned to his native province where he tried to preach the faith, he was expelled from his native Oyainah central Saudi Arabia ( just north west of Riyadh) by the then prince bin Muamar as he didn't accept the Islamic teaching of Mohammad bin Abdulwahab as tribal leaders preferred having control over illiterate people.

he went to the Othman ally Ibn Rasheed who was the ruler of Riyadh at the time, he also refused to protect him or help him ignite the dawa, while Mohammad bin Saud the then leader of an area called Direayah gave the man protection and helped him spread the Dawa.

In my eyes he is a person who gave his life to bring back Islam to the central part of Saudi Arabia, one of his great quotes was: (I do not call to follow a special sect nor do I ask to follow this or that Imam, I only call to Allah the only lord and to the teaching of his prophet Mohammad peace be upon him, if I receive from any of my Imam's and teachers something which contradicts what the prophet says then I will ignore it for the messenger of mercy can never say but the truth),

He died a poor man, I do not follow the Ahmad bin Hanbal teachings, I do not come from his area, I am from the south west mountains of the Arabian peninsula where the Shafi Madhab is predominant, but as I said the man was in my eyes a man who dedicated his life to bringing back Tawheed to the Central part of the Arabian peninsula, he was a follower of Ahmad Bin Hanbal Madhab, he never claimed a Madhab of his own may Allah have mercy on his soul.

What brother Rami was refering to was King Abdulaziz and his men the so called brothers of Allah Obayers, if they claimed to follow Mohammad bin Abdulwahab then it was because he was widely regarded throughout the land although he had died almost 100 years before that, at this time politcal gain under the blanket of religion was achieved but never in the time of Mohammad Bin Abdulwahab, as he and Mohammad bin Saud where rightous men serving Allah, wallah Alam.

Finally:
There is no such thing as Wahabi Madhab, I think it is something the American admin. 1st started using to try to isolate extremists and terrorists from all the main 4 Sunni Madhabs making them less favorable and easier to isolate and fight.

Allah knows best.



I agree with you that Wahabiism is not a mazhab and Shaikh A.Wahab never try to introduce a new mazhab his only goal was to bring Muslim ummaah on one plateform as a Muslim not as Hanafi, Sha'afaee, Malki, Hambali or Jaa'fri. Muslim is a Muslim he should follow the path of Mohammed (sws)who deliver us the Holy Quraan the book of Allah(swt).
Its not America who is trying to isolate him, it was Turkey, Usmania Sultnate made a dirty propoganda against him. Turkey has to leave Arabia because of him. Shaikh A.Wahab helped Saud to forced Turkey out of Arabia.
In their 200years rule Turkey did not built a single school in entire Saudi Arabia. They tried to keep Arabs uneducated and backward. First Saudi school ALFALAH was build by a businessman Shaikh Mohammed Ali Zainal Ali Reza in Jeddah in 1905 and 7 years later in Mecca.

Edited by yusufrafi - 19 September 2008 at 6:08am
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2008 at 12:20am
Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Br while i agree with everything you are saying in your post a madhhab is not a sect, nor are the different madhhab groups, this is a simple reality please check the definitions. if we cant agree on the language then no one will know what the other is talking about.
 
 I give an example or two examples and need guidance from rami.
 
 The Imam e Ka'abah had arrived in pakistan. He led the Zuhr prayer and about 2 million people attended in open area. Every one was very happy and went home. Later there was an item in the news from a great Brelvi maulvi. He said that people belonging to his line should re-peform (repeat) their prayers later because the Imam was a Wahhabi and we do not pray in the Imamat of a Wahhabi. He said there is no harm if any one performed prayer in the Imamat of that Imam Ka'abah. But he should repeat his prayer privately otherwise he will be a sinner.
 
 That was just one example. Was it a sect or it was different madhab?
 
 Now another one: In the year before 1900 A.D. or even before that, there used to be four separate prayer mats in the Ka'abah for the four schools of thought. Each school people prayed behind their own Imam. Was that the correct Islam? Was that the desire of the prophet and his companions? What was that? Different sects or different Madhahib? Please explain in very simple words because my English is not so good. Thanks.


Edited by minuteman - 28 September 2008 at 12:22am
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 28 September 2008 at 2:57am
This is interesting..as someone not born into Islam..
 
When you "sign up" for Islam you see the five pillars of Islam. And the set of beliefs. Its interesting that no one who "counseled" me at the time said that you now have to choose a madhhab.
 
I do agree that the schools of thought differ and so one should aim to be consistent in one's life.  But it is ODD to imagine that people upon meeting people will give themselves a label. Unless you are going to marry or have some deeper relations not sure why it would come up.
 
 
And really, as people born into Islam, how many people study and truly choose a madhhab? People tend to inherit from their parents etc. So most people don't study and make a conscious choice.
 
And meeting people in my travels, it was interesting  to see Muslims label each other, like whispering to me " she's a so and so." As if those labels had any meaning to me.
 
Are Muslims any different from wanting to be "in group" or out of group. And in places where Muslims dominate, well, we all need to feel belonging to a more inclusive group. I think you see less of that in a way in the west as people more past the labels as well, we are Muslims. There is  some sepration between Shia and Sunni, but no one I"ve met has ever given me  a madhhab they belong to.  And they may very well follow one or another. But I don't know it, and really in meeting people what does it matter?
 
I think this happens more in places where Muslims are the majority.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Uighur Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2008 at 4:06am
Esalamu Eleykom rami
your writing enriched my knowledge on mathbeb ,thank you ,Beside may be i should drop some experiences from where i live as it  something to with this discussion .I live in Xinjiang Uighur province . Uighur scholars generally follow Hanifi school in Fiq , but young people always challenge them with la mathheb slogan like <we fellow Quran & Sunna only >.they refuse to listen Imam even refuse to pray with Imams in mosque. One of their big point is Imams fellow mathheb ,a practice  against  Islam according  their view. They talk unity very much but in reality existence of such young people have created very strong conflict, Imams always refer  them as wahabis in return young accuse Imans disbelievers .They talk about things which are unpractical & do thing very strange . The young people like that mostly uneducated ,yet they love to talk big like how to save Muslims .  I found is very strange .. ..They must be something wrong  here...


Edited by Uighur - 30 September 2008 at 9:47pm
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