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ak_m_f
 
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Quote ak_m_f Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2007 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by Zanjabil

In Russia, the police caught the terrorists who planted explosives in an apartment block red-handed. And it turned out they were FSB (KGB) employees. The FSB were forced to come out with some story about how they had been running a training exercise, and had planted sugar, not genuine explosives, in the apartment block. But the laboratory analyses had confirmed that the explosives were genuine -- the same kind that had been used in the Moscow apartment bombs which served to justify the second invasion of Chechnya.


Despite this, the vast majority of Russians nowadays call the Chechens terrorists. And turn a blind eye to the genocide and war atrocities their government's troops carry out there on a daily basis. When in reality the terrorists were FSB officers all along.


Sadly, the public in America and the UK are as easily fooled as the Russian public.



can you post a link form reputable newspaper?
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syed123
 
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Quote syed123 Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2007 at 10:33pm

The posts by Zanjabil and Muslim mind are not only baseless but also highly  misleading.

Please provide a credible source or proof  in order to substantiate your off the mark statements.

Without any tangible proof or evidence these statements and posts are worthless and can only  be described as figments of your imagination.



Edited by syed123
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Zanjabil
 
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Quote Zanjabil Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2007 at 11:21am

ak_m_f: Is the Wall Street Journal credible and reputable enough? You can read their article on the subject:

Another Putin Show Trial

By Elena Bonner

25 November 2004

The Wall Street Journal Europe

Next Wednesday, in a small town courthouse west of Moscow, Mikhail Trepashkin, a lawyer, will face a fabricated charge of illegal gun possession in the latest political trial under Vladimir Putin's presidency. The real crime of Mr. Trepashkin is a discovery that casts light on the murky circumstances of Mr. Putin's coming to power - the bombings of apartment houses in Moscow in September 1999 that led to the Second Chechen War and helped Mr. Putin win the 2000 elections.

Mr. Trepashkin was the attorney of a victim's family. His clients, two Russian-American sisters, Tatyana and Alyona Morozov, lost their mother in the bombings that shocked Russia. Like most Russians they believed the official version that the attack was the work of Chechen separatists, and backed Mr. Putin, then prime minister, who sent Russian troops to Chechnya.

However, in March 2000, on the eve of presidential elections, the independent NTV channel of Vladimir Gusinsky aired an investigative report about undercover agents of the Russian security service FSB being caught by the local police in the city of Ryazan while planting a bomb in another apartment house - just two weeks after the Moscow bombings. Mr. Putin's campaign warned Mr. Gusinsky not to air the story, or else. A year later NTV was taken over by the government and its owner chased into exile. But the allegations of FSB's complicity in the Moscow bombings have lingered ever since.

Tatyana Morozova traveled to Moscow in the summer of 2003 and hired Mr. Trepashkin to investigate the allegations and represent her at the trial of two Chechens accused of transporting the explosives for the bombings. The Chechens were convicted of terrorism early this year in a closed trial. But no one knows what happened in the courtroom because Mr. Trepashkin never got there.

He was arrested five days before the trial on a highway near Moscow when traffic police pulled him over and planted a gun in his car. While in jail, he was beaten and tortured by hunger, sleep deprivation and withholding of medicine for his chronic asthma, prompting the European court of human rights in Strasbourg to accept his case ahead of the years-long waiting line.

The evidence that he obtained and managed to communicate to a Moscow newspaper before his arrest might help explain his brutal treatment. The landlord in the bombed building told Mr. Trepashkin that the FSB had forced him to recognize a Chechen suspect - someone he had never seen - as the man who rented the basement to plant the bomb. From the landlord's description Mr. Trepashkin identified the real terrorist - a known FSB agent. In any democratic country such findings would bring Mr. Trepashkin on national TV and lead to public uproar, parliamentary probes and independent investigations. In Russia, this brought him arrest, torture and a sham trial.

Thirty years ago at a height of political repression in the Soviet Union, my late husband Andrei Sakharov and I would spend days in front of a courthouse trying to bring the world's attention to the fate of those courageous few who dared to challenge the regime - people like Yuri Orlov, Alexander Ginzburg, Anatoly Scharansky and others less known but no less heroic. Were Andrei Sakharov alive today, he would certainly go to the courthouse on Dec. 1. By all standards, Mr. Trepashkin and his fellow political prisoners Igor Sutyagin, Valentin Danilov and the Yukos three - Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Platon Lebedev and Alexei Pichugin - are in the same situation as the dissidents from the Soviet days. Just as Mr. Putin carries on with the traditions of his KGB predecessors, these men stand up bravely to repression.

There is no continuity, however, in the Western response to repression in Russia. In the former days, personal support from Jimmy Carter, Margaret Thatcher, Francois Mitterrand and Ronald Reagan gave us all strength to stand up to evil and brought a moral dimension into global politics. Today, Mr. Trepashkin is left on his own. I am far from expecting the West to give credence to Mr. Trepashkin's version of the 1999 events. But it would be completely in the tradition of the great leaders of the past if Mr. Putin were told that his handling of the 1999 bombing controversy is embarrassing for his new friends in the West who are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

- Ms. Bonner, chairwoman of the Andrei Sakharov Foundation, is the widow of Dr. Sakharov.

From: http://eng.terror99.ru/archive/2004.htm

The fact is there's a mountain of credible evidence. Mr Litvinenko wrote a whole book on the subject, presenting his evidence that his former employers -- the FSB -- were responsible for the apartment bombings. This is well known, and I'm surprised that so many readers here have not yet heard of these allegations.

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syed123
 
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Quote syed123 Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2007 at 11:35pm

Chechnya  and its people have  definitely sufferred under the repressive regime of Putin who is continuing  the age old oppressive traditions of the erstwhile KGB.

 

But the Billion dollar question arises about the role of senseless violence and the enormous damage it causes to the credibility of genuine freedom movements  and its followers.

Violence practised by a particular community or group alienates  its otherwise sympathetic supporters.

The proponents of violence among muslims who are a miniscule minority are heavy on rhetoric about fighting but have always been found wanting when it comes to offering pragmatic workable solutions.

Cases in point being afghanistan where the Mujahiddeen guerillas could never have prevailed without heavy funding and covert support from the USA.

Bosnia where all the islamic and arab countries were heavy on rhetoric and passing resolutions but in all reality it was the US which intervened physically and stopped the heavy massacre of muslims there.

Kosovo where inspite of russian and serb opposition United states intervened militarily and aided the muslim majority population there.

Pre 9/11 United states  and Europe did offer muted support to the chechen struggle.

Irrespective of the political intrigues and  government conspiracies the value and appeal  of a particular community or group is judged by its ability to co-exist peacefully with other groups and also  by its contributions in the field of Science,Technology,economics,culture and art.         

   With great regrets i can say that Muslims are lagging behind in all the above fields and we need urgently to find out the causes and reasons in order to restore credibilty to genuine struggles against tyrannical regimes.

 



Edited by syed123
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Zanjabil
 
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Quote Zanjabil Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2007 at 6:42am
Originally posted by syed123

Pre 9/11 United states  and Europe did offer muted support to the chechen struggle.

Syed123, this is not the case. Perhaps you should take off your rose-tinted glasses.

Clinton supported Yeltsin in his massacre of the Chechens with green dollars. Blair supported Putin's lies about the Chechens being terrorists and the Chechen War as a legitimate "War on Terror". The West has turned its back on the Chechens.

Yeltsin and Putin's troops have slaughtered between 15 and 25 percent of the Chechen population. There are concentration camps holding children in Chechnya. Rape is widespread. Yet some Muslims rant on about the importance of scientific achievements...

If we were a genuine Ummah -- a family of brothers and sisters in faith -- we would care about what's happening.

See http://adamite.wordpress.com/2007/08/13/putin-the-barbarian- and-western-complicity/ for evidence of ongoing Western complicity:

“President Bill Clinton… helped finance Russia’s war in Chechnya.” Clinton had “lent Yeltsin $11 billion to finance the operation”, and “even went to Moscow, lauded Yeltsin, likened Russia’s savage repression of tiny Chechnya to America’s civil war, and had the effrontery to call Yeltsin ‘Russia’s Abraham Lincoln’.” The extent of American support for Russia’s campaign to subjugate the Chechen people was even clearer when in 1996, “Clinton reportedly ordered the CIA to supply Moscow top-secret electronic targeting devices that allowed the Russians to assassinate Chechen president, Dzhokar Dudayev, while he was conducting peace negotiations with Moscow on his cell phone.” 

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syed123
 
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Quote syed123 Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2007 at 8:08am

Lets talk about solutions Zanjabil.

Setting aside all prejudices In your opinion realistically how do you think  that the Chechen issue can be solved?

I also invite other contributors to state their expert opinions regarding a realistic way out of the quagmire in Chechnya.

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Zanjabil
 
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Quote Zanjabil Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2007 at 8:56am

Well, the pen is mightier than the sword. If we read and write about the reality in Chechnya, if we expose the lies spread by the Russian and Western governments, then that is a start.

This is truly a war for our hearts and minds.

Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud (RAA) says that Allah's Messenger (SAW) said:

There was never a prophet sent before me by Allah (SWT) to his nation who had not among his people (his) disciples and companions, who followed his ways and obeyed his commands. Then there came after them their successors who said what they did not practise and did what they were not commanded to do. He who struggles against them with his hand (i.e., physically), he is the believer; and he who struggles against them with his tongue, he is the believer; and he who struggles against them with his heart, he is also the believer: but beyond that there is not even a grain of Iman.

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ops154
 
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Quote ops154 Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2007 at 2:15pm
Originally posted by Zanjabil

ak_m_f: Is the Wall Street Journal credible and reputable enough? You can read their article on the subject:

Another Putin Show Trial

By Elena Bonner

25 November 2004

The Wall Street Journal Europe

Next Wednesday, in a small town courthouse west of Moscow, Mikhail Trepashkin, a lawyer, will face a fabricated charge of illegal gun possession in the latest political trial under Vladimir Putin's presidency. The real crime of Mr. Trepashkin is a discovery that casts light on the murky circumstances of Mr. Putin's coming to power - the bombings of apartment houses in Moscow in September 1999 that led to the Second Chechen War and helped Mr. Putin win the 2000 elections.

Mr. Trepashkin was the attorney of a victim's family. His clients, two Russian-American sisters, Tatyana and Alyona Morozov, lost their mother in the bombings that shocked Russia. Like most Russians they believed the official version that the attack was the work of Chechen separatists, and backed Mr. Putin, then prime minister, who sent Russian troops to Chechnya.

However, in March 2000, on the eve of presidential elections, the independent NTV channel of Vladimir Gusinsky aired an investigative report about undercover agents of the Russian security service FSB being caught by the local police in the city of Ryazan while planting a bomb in another apartment house - just two weeks after the Moscow bombings. Mr. Putin's campaign warned Mr. Gusinsky not to air the story, or else. A year later NTV was taken over by the government and its owner chased into exile. But the allegations of FSB's complicity in the Moscow bombings have lingered ever since.

Tatyana Morozova traveled to Moscow in the summer of 2003 and hired Mr. Trepashkin to investigate the allegations and represent her at the trial of two Chechens accused of transporting the explosives for the bombings. The Chechens were convicted of terrorism early this year in a closed trial. But no one knows what happened in the courtroom because Mr. Trepashkin never got there.

He was arrested five days before the trial on a highway near Moscow when traffic police pulled him over and planted a gun in his car. While in jail, he was beaten and tortured by hunger, sleep deprivation and withholding of medicine for his chronic asthma, prompting the European court of human rights in Strasbourg to accept his case ahead of the years-long waiting line.

The evidence that he obtained and managed to communicate to a Moscow newspaper before his arrest might help explain his brutal treatment. The landlord in the bombed building told Mr. Trepashkin that the FSB had forced him to recognize a Chechen suspect - someone he had never seen - as the man who rented the basement to plant the bomb. From the landlord's description Mr. Trepashkin identified the real terrorist - a known FSB agent. In any democratic country such findings would bring Mr. Trepashkin on national TV and lead to public uproar, parliamentary probes and independent investigations. In Russia, this brought him arrest, torture and a sham trial.

Thirty years ago at a height of political repression in the Soviet Union, my late husband Andrei Sakharov and I would spend days in front of a courthouse trying to bring the world's attention to the fate of those courageous few who dared to challenge the regime - people like Yuri Orlov, Alexander Ginzburg, Anatoly Scharansky and others less known but no less heroic. Were Andrei Sakharov alive today, he would certainly go to the courthouse on Dec. 1. By all standards, Mr. Trepashkin and his fellow political prisoners Igor Sutyagin, Valentin Danilov and the Yukos three - Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Platon Lebedev and Alexei Pichugin - are in the same situation as the dissidents from the Soviet days. Just as Mr. Putin carries on with the traditions of his KGB predecessors, these men stand up bravely to repression.

There is no continuity, however, in the Western response to repression in Russia. In the former days, personal support from Jimmy Carter, Margaret Thatcher, Francois Mitterrand and Ronald Reagan gave us all strength to stand up to evil and brought a moral dimension into global politics. Today, Mr. Trepashkin is left on his own. I am far from expecting the West to give credence to Mr. Trepashkin's version of the 1999 events. But it would be completely in the tradition of the great leaders of the past if Mr. Putin were told that his handling of the 1999 bombing controversy is embarrassing for his new friends in the West who are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt.

- Ms. Bonner, chairwoman of the Andrei Sakharov Foundation, is the widow of Dr. Sakharov.

From: http://eng.terror99.ru/archive/2004.htm

The fact is there's a mountain of credible evidence. Mr Litvinenko wrote a whole book on the subject, presenting his evidence that his former employers -- the FSB -- were responsible for the apartment bombings. This is well known, and I'm surprised that so many readers here have not yet heard of these allegations.

 

Oh well it is nice to see that people say they don't believe anything from American press and then go back to quote it.

 

So does everyone on this board really feel they will get better information from a state sponsored news company then a privately owned that has freedom of the press? Now don't get me wrong I know there is a lot of BS in American press but come on now, are you really all that naive to believe that the Middle Eastern press is giving you all the facts when they have to have government officials approve broadcast before they can go out?

 

With all these atrocities happening all over the world against muslims there is only one thing that is a common factor for all them--They all include Muslims so maybe you need to look at yourselves for once instead of blaming the west for all of your problems.



Edited by ops154
Get it through your heads that I don't support Bush or the Israeli's! Thank your lucky stars for America is here to stay!!!
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