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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 2:20pm

as you will see, Jesus came to Earth so that we may see who God truely is. As Jesus stated none of us has see the Father. We need to know who he is. How do you know someone?

Is Jesus Fully God?

     Another group questions whether Jesus actually possesses all the characteristics of the Eternal God. They stem from Arius, a 4th century Alexandrian priest, who had a different take on God. He taught that prior to making anything else, God created a son who was neither equal to, nor coeternal with, the Father. According to this idea, called Arianism, Jesus Christ is a supernatural creature, but He is neither fully human nor fully divine. Still others embrace a more immature version of this doctrine, holding that back in the dawn of time, God the Father had some form of cosmic intimate relations with the Holy Spirit and Jesus was the product. They reason, “How else can you call Him the Son?”
     However, these concepts are totally contrary to the teaching of the New Testament in which Jesus is revealed as the Eternal Creator and not a created being (John 1:1–4). As we compare Scripture definitions for God with the Bible record of Jesus, we see the characteristics of Jehovah are also ascribed to Jesus. Note these powerful examples:

  • He is self-existent (John 1:1–4; 14:6); only God is self-existent (Psalm 90:2).
  • Jesus defines Himself as eternal. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8).
  • He is, and has, eternal life (1 John 5:11, 12, 20).
  • He is all-powerful (Revelation 1:8).
  • He created all things (John 1:3). “In the beginning God created the heaven and the
    earth” (Genesis 1:1). “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” (Colossians 1:16 NKJV).
  • The Father even calls Jesus God. “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom” (Hebrews 1:8).
  • Jesus is able to forgive sin (Luke 5:20, 21); The Bible says only God can forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25).
  • Jesus accepted worship that according to the Ten Commandments is reserved only for the Almighty (Matthew 14:33). “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, ‘All hail.’ And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (Matthew 28:9). Upon seeing the risen Savior, the converted skeptic, Thomas, confessed, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:26–29).
  • Even the angels worship Jesus. “And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him” (Hebrews 1:6).
  • The Scriptures also teach that only God knows the thoughts of a man’s heart (1 Kings 8:39). Yet Jesus consistently knew what people were thinking, “for he knew what was in man” (John 2:25). “Nathanael said to Him, ‘How do You know me?’ Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you’” (John 1:48 NKJV).
  • Through the Spirit, Jesus is omnipresent. “Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20 NKJV). “For I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city” (Acts 18:10 NKJV).
  • He has power to give life, and even resurrected Himself. “No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again” (John 10:18). “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live” (John 11:25).

     Therefore, by considering the primary definitions of God, and seeing that Jesus fits every one of those definitions, obviously, Jesus must be eternal God.


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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 2:29pm
Sabellius' account actually makes more sense than the traditional Christian view.  Of course, I still think he was wrong, but his idea made alot more sense.  Claiming that Jesus is all three, instead of just one aspect of God makes a whole lot more sense than that he was one just one portion of the Trinity.  As for his water argument, I would humbly disagree.  Water, be it solid, liquid or gas has the same molecular formula, H2O.  This formula does not change, whether solid, liquid or gas.  With the Trinity, the three parts are not the same.  The son is flesh and blood, the Spirit is self-explanatory and the Father is something altogether different.  This is not like water, which is H2O no matter which way you look at it.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 3:39pm


Thank you for taking the time to read it.  There is more!!

His Enemies Knew

     Even Jesus’ enemies understood and recognized His claim of equality with the Father God. When He boldly proclaimed, “I and my Father are one,” Jewish leaders were outraged and sought to execute Him. They understood unequivocally that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself. “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God” (John 10:30, 33).
     The Jews even attempted to stone Christ when He assumed the self-existent title of Jehovah used at the burning bush. Jesus said to them, “‘Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.’ Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by” (John 8:58 NKJV).
     The Jews understood that Jesus claimed equality with God, when He said “‘My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.’ Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, ... but said also that God was his Father, making Himself equal with God” (John 5:17, 18).
     There are only three conclusions one can derive from reading these passages. First, Jesus was insane when He made these outrageous claims. Second, He was a liar. These are unacceptable options. The third possibility is that He uttered a sublime truth. For a Christian who accepts the substitutionary death of Christ on the cross, the third option is the only tenable one. Otherwise, a liar or delusional man could not be righteous enough to be our Savior.

Medieval Error?

     Probably the most widely held Christian view of God is known as the “trinity.” This popular belief teaches that the Godhead consists of three distinct persons who have existed together from eternity past and are named the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Each one possesses original, underived, and unborrowed life. They are all equally God and are one in nature, character, and purpose. They are not three “gods,” but one God in a combination of the three distinct persons.
     Some have implicated trinitarianism as heresy because they claim the wayward medieval church was the culprit to firstintroduce it. In fact, to distance themselves from the Catholic version of the trinity, many Protestant leaders from the 19th century preferred the more biblical term “Godhead” when referring to the triune God.
     However, just because an apostate church believes in the trinity, or any other doctrine for that matter, does not automatically make it unbiblical. The converse is also true. A position is not accurate just because some of the early church leaders advocated it. Even the Apostles misunderstood the nature of Jesus’ first coming. Doctrinal validity must be based on biblical authority and not upon whom advocates it or rejects it.
     The Old Testament was written long before the existence of the Christian church, apostate or true, and it teaches there are three persons in the Godhead. In Isaiah, the Redeemer, which is Jesus Christ in the New Testament (Galatians 4:4, 5), declares the “Lord God and His Spirit” are responsible for sending Him on His mission of redemption (Isaiah 48:16, 17 NKJV).
     Some think that because the word “trinity” (derived from the Latin word trinitas, meaning “threeness”) is not found in the Bible, the concept of a triune God cannot be right. However, even though the word “millennium,” meaning one thousand years, does not appear in Revelation 20, we use it to describe earth’s 1,000-year rest after Jesus’ return. A teaching is not any less true simply because an extra-biblical word is used to define what is clearly a biblical teaching. This goes for the trinity, second coming, investigative judgment, and a host of other concise terms for doctrines.

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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2007 at 3:41pm


Here is giving you more insight in to the matter.

One God, Three Persons

     The names of God reveal attributes of His nature. God has a long-established habit of using various names to describe a person’s character. Jacob earned his name that means “swindler” when he practiced deception to steal his father’s blessing away from his brother Esau (Genesis 27:35, 36). At his conversion, Jacob wrestled with the angel and insisted on the blessing of God. Then his name was changed to “Israel,” which means “a prince with God” (Genesis 32:26–28).
     Likewise, the names for God found in Genesis and elsewhere tell us volumes about our Creator. “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). The Hebrew word here for God is Elohim. It is a plural noun that is used more than 2,700 times in the Old Testament. This means that inspired authors preferred to use Elohim about 10 times more than the singular form “El” when they described God. Even in the Old Testament book of Daniel, we see a picture of the Father and the Son as two separate persons. “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him” (Daniel 7:13). The Son of man, Jesus, is seen coming before the Ancient of Days—who is, obviously, God the Father.
     The New Testament writings are sprinkled with this concept of one God with three united, fully divine persons. The apostle Paul wrote that there were three divine persons: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:4–6).
     Paul frequently referred to the three separate persons of the Godhead. “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14). “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Hebrews 9:14).
     Revelation opens by introducing the three persons of the Godhead. “From the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever” (Revelation 1:4–6 NKJV).
     In addition, we clearly see three distinct persons at the baptism of Jesus. “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:16,17).
     If Jesus is the only person in the Godhead, where did the voice come from that declared, “This is my beloved Son”? Did He trisect Himself into a voice from heaven, the dove wafting down through the sky, and His body on the bank of the river? No. This was not simply a clever act of holy smoke and mirrors, but rather a regal reunion revealing the truth of the trinity. And on top of this, it is through the shared authority of these three persons that we are commissioned to baptize. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).

When you have the time, I would suggest studying the book of Daniel.

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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2007 at 7:08am
Hi Minuteman,

 The whole thing is wrong. The disciples worshipped him not throughout his ministry. Why they only started worshipping only at the last moment?? That is a false thing that they worshipped him at all or that he ever resurrected from the dead. He simply rose from the lying position. They said that Jesus had risen. What is the meaning of "Risen"! Please take the simplest meanings.

Where do you get such an extreme idea? 

The disciples did not know that he was a god until the last few days. Why?? We see Jesus being called a Lord. But that does not mean that he is father or god. He could not be the father because he never got married. About Lord, I see many men in the House of Lords in England.

Jesus is the Lord from heaven... meaning the in-form emanation of God, whose back Moses saw on Mt. Sinai.   Haven't you ever heard of the Lord's prayer?    It is the prayer the the Lord taught the disciples.   It starts off, "Our Father who art in heaven...."

In the KJV ot, God exists as visible, invisible, and ominpresent.

Since God is a person, those three different ways are called the three persons of the Trinity.    Moses saw the Lord's back on Mt. Sinai, as he passed by.   

God relates to man's perceptive capacities i.e. sight and hearing
by His in form emanation....which is called the "Lord".   We have been created that way by design.    God's in form emanation is called the Lord.    The Lord comes forth from the Father, who no man has Jesus said no man has seen the Father.   

Another sentence that you wrote: Jesus never prayed to the Lord, because he was the Lord.

That is also wrong because we see in the bibleNT that Jesus before his arrest, prayed so much heavily to God (Or his supposed father) that his sweat was running like blood and he beseeched his Lord (The real God) that if possible the cup may be taken away from him. Are you aware of these things?. If not then please go and check up or ask some one. Why did you say that Jesus did not pray to the Lord?? Then to whom he was praying?? To himself??  More later if required. But it is only for discussion. Not to undermine any one.

Jesus never addressed God as Lord anywhere, anytime.   Jesus addressed God as Father.    The problem you have my friend minuteman is that you don't equate the trinity in terms of Father, Lord, and Holy Spirit.    Unseen, Seen, and Omnipresent.

I am certain that you have heard the trinity in terms as being Father, Son, Holy Spirit.    However, the term "Son" , in the Trinity, is metaphoric, as is the Father for that matter.   The Son's meaning is to convey that the Lord (the Son) emanates, comes forth, from the Father, God who no created being can fathom.    God presents Himself in a form, such that His creation can relate.

Simply substitute Lord for Son in the nt, and you will understand why Jesus is called the Lord throughout the nt and he himself never addressed God as Lord.... because Jesus was the Lord.   The same Lord who's back Moses saw on Mt. Sinai.


Doug L.

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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2007 at 8:27am


Unity or Quantity?

     Most of the confusion regarding the number of beings composing the Godhead springs from a simple misunderstanding of the word “one.” Simply put, “one” in the Bible does not always mean numerical quantity. Depending on the Scripture, “one” can often mean unity.
     We see this principle established very early in Scripture. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh” (Genesis 2:24, emphasis added). “One flesh” here does not mean that a married couple melt into one human after their wedding, but rather they are to be united into one family. Jesus prayed that the apostles would be one, saying, “And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one” (John 17:22, 23).
     We need to keep in mind that when Moses said, “The Lord is one,” Israel was surrounded with polytheistic nations that worshiped many gods that were constantly involved in petty bickering and rivalry (Deuteronomy 6:4), whereas the God who created is composed of three separate beings who are perfectly united in their mission of saving and sustaining their creatures. As the Spirit is executing the will of both the Father and Son, it is His will also.
     “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (1 John 5:7). Granted, it is a brain exercise to grasp that one God (“He”) is also, and equally, “They.” Like one rope with three united strands, the three persons of the Father, Son, and Spirit make up the one God.

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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2007 at 8:29am
God Manifested in Nature

     Though there is nothing in this world that adequately illustrates God, Paul declares the “invisible things of him from the creation of the world” can help us understand “his eternal power and Godhead” (Romans 1:20). The truth that God is a “tri-unity” of two invisible persons (Father and Spirit) and one visible person (Jesus) is evident even in creation.
     The universe is composed of three structures: space, matter, and time. Of these three, only matter is visible. Space requires length, height, and width to constitute space. Each dimension is separate and distinct in itself, yet the three form space—if you remove height, you no longer have space. Time is also a tri-unity of past, present, and future. Two are invisible (past and future), and one visible (present). Each is separate and distinct, as well as essential for time to exist. Man is also a “tri-unity,” having physical, mental, and spiritual components. Again, two are invisible (mental and spiritual) and one visible (physical). Cells compose the fundamental structural unit of all living organisms. All organic life is made up from cells that consist of three primary parts: the outer wall, the cytoplasm, and the nucleus (like the shell, white, and yoke of an egg). If any one is removed, the cell dies.
     In each of these examples, the removal of any one component results in the demise of the whole. In like manner, the Godhead contains three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each is God (Ephesians 4:6; Titus 2:13; Acts 5:3, 4), yet there is one God. The removal of one person destroys the unity of the whole.
     Even the gospel story illustrates the interdependency of threes. The sanctuary had three places: the Courtyard, the Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place. There are three stages of salvation: justification, sanctification, and glorification. In Isaiah 6:3, the angels around God’s throne cry “Holy, Holy, Holy” three times—once for the Father, once for the Son, and once for the Holy Spirit.

When you read this you have to get a whole description of God. God tells us who He is through out the entire Bible. That is why I urge you to read it.

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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2007 at 3:54am


buddyman and douggg have tried to explain thieir church beliefs, that Lord means Jesus. According to what they say:God has triunie nature. There is God The father, There is god the son called Lord. There is a spirit of the father (HS). They (gods) have their own roles. They are not equal. Jesus was different to the father. Jesus came from father.

 The god has existed since eternity. But nobody knew about it until Jesus arrived. So Abraham and Moses and all the prophets after Moses did not know the triune nature of God and they never told any one or preached that doctrine. Nobody said that there are three gods in one god.

The God of the Muslims needs nobody. But the God of the christians needs a spirit. He also needs a son too. We believe that any one who needs something cannot be a god at all/

It worries me that Jesus may have talked about thefather and the holy spirit and himself. But did Jesusever say that these three things are god or each one of them is a god. I believe that people made up agod from those three things.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
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