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buddyman
 
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 2:58pm

Lets study Daniel. Lets start with King Nebechadnezzars dream:

 

1Now in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar (A)had dreams; and his spirit was troubled and his (B)sleep left him.

 2Then the king gave orders to call in the [a](C)magicians, the conjurers, the sorcerers and the [b]Chaldeans to tell the king his dreams. So they came in and stood before the king.

 3The king said to them, "I (D)had a dream and my spirit is anxious to understand the dream."

 4Then the Chaldeans spoke to the king in (E)Aramaic: "(F)O king, live forever! (G)Tell the dream to your servants, and we will declare the interpretation."

 5The king replied to the Chaldeans, "The command from me is firm: if you do not make known to me the dream and its interpretation, you will be (H)torn limb from limb and your houses will be made a rubbish heap.

 6"But if you declare the dream and its interpretation, you will receive from me (I)gifts and a reward and great honor; therefore declare to me the dream and its interpretation."

 7They answered a second time and said, "Let the king (J)tell the dream to his servants, and we will declare the interpretation."

 8The king replied, "I know for certain that you are bargaining for time, inasmuch as you have seen that the command from me is firm,

 9that if you do not make the dream known to me, there is only (K)one decree for you For you have agreed together to speak lying and corrupt words before me until the situation is changed; therefore tell me the dream, that I may (L)know that you can declare to me its interpretation."

 10The Chaldeans answered the king and said, "There is not a man on earth who could declare the matter for the king, inasmuch as no great king or ruler has ever asked anything like this of any (M)magician, conjurer or Chaldean.

 11"Moreover, the thing which the king demands is difficult, and there is no one else who could declare it to the king except (N)gods, whose (O)dwelling place is not with mortal flesh."

 12Because of this the king became (P)indignant and very furious and gave orders to destroy all the wise men of Babylon.

 13So the decree went forth that the wise men should be slain; and they looked for (Q)Daniel and his friends to kill them.

 14Then Daniel replied with discretion and discernment to (R)Arioch, the captain of the king's bodyguard, who had gone forth to slay the wise men of Babylon;

 15he said to Arioch, the king's commander, "For what reason is the decree from the king so urgent?" Then Arioch informed Daniel about the matter.

 16So Daniel went in and requested of the king that he would give him time, in order that he might declare the interpretation to the king.

 17Then Daniel went to his house and informed his friends, (S)Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, about the matter,

 18so that they might (T)request compassion from the God of heaven concerning this mystery, so that Daniel and his friends would not be (U)destroyed with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.

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buddyman
 
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 3:00pm
19Then the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a night (V)vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven;

 20Daniel said,
         "Let the name of God be (W)blessed forever and ever,
         For (X)wisdom and power belong to Him.
    21"It is He who (Y)changes the times and the epochs;
         He (Z)removes kings and establishes kings;
         He gives (AA)wisdom to wise men
         And knowledge to men of understanding.
    22"It is He who (AB)reveals the profound and hidden things;
         (AC)He knows what is in the darkness,
         And the (AD)light dwells with Him.
    23"To You, O (AE)God of my fathers, I give thanks and praise,
         For You have given me (AF)wisdom and power;
         Even now You have made known to me what we (AG)requested of You,
         For You have made known to us the king's matter."

 24Therefore, Daniel went in to Arioch, whom the king had appointed to destroy the wise men of Babylon; he went and spoke to him as follows: "(AH)Do not destroy the wise men of Babylon! Take me into the king's presence, and I will declare the interpretation to the king."

 25Then Arioch hurriedly (AI)brought Daniel into the king's presence and spoke to him as follows: "I have found a man among the (AJ)exiles from Judah who can make the interpretation known to the king!"

 26The king said to Daniel, whose name was (AK)Belteshazzar, "Are you able to make known to me the dream which I have seen and its interpretation?"

 27Daniel answered before the king and said, "As for the mystery about which the king has inquired, neither (AL)wise men, conjurers, magicians nor diviners are able to declare it to the king.

 28"However, there is a (AM)God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will take place in the (AN)latter days This was your dream and the (AO)visions in your mind while on your bed.

 29"As for you, O king, while on your bed your thoughts turned to what would take place in the future; and (AP)He who reveals mysteries has made known to you what will take place.

 30"But as for me, this mystery has not been revealed to me for any (AQ)wisdom residing in me more than in any other living man, but for the purpose of making the interpretation known to the king, and that you may understand the (AR)thoughts of your mind.

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buddyman
 
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 3:19pm
The King's Dream
 31"You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was (AS)awesome.

 32"The (AT)head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze,

 33its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay.

 34"You continued looking until a (AU)stone was cut out (AV)without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and (AW)crushed them.

 35"Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became (AX)like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that (AY)not a trace of them was found But the stone that struck the statue became a great (AZ)mountain and filled the whole earth.

Interpretation:

36"This was the dream; now we will tell (BA)its interpretation before the king.

 37"You, O king, are the (BB)king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the (BC)power, the strength and the glory;

 38and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the (BD)beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold

What does the head of gold represent?

The king was regarded as the head of the state. This is why Nebuchadnezzar represented Babylon, the empire that began the prophecy. Neo-Babylon ruled the world from 612-539 B.C. as one of the mightiest empires of antiquity--one that could aptly be described as the head of gold. Notice that the prophecy begins with Daniel's time.

 39"After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you,

Babylon's supremacy would not last forever. Succeeding kingdoms, inferior to Babylon, would rule in their turn. Just as silver is inferior to gold, so the kingdom that followed Babylon enjoyed diminished glory. Led by Cyrus in 539 B.C., the Medo-Persian empire conquered Babylon and reduced it to ruins. The Medes and Persians were the ruling world power from 539-331 B.C. During their reign, all taxes had to be paid in silver.

39, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth.

The brass kingdom of Greece came into power when Alexander the Great conquered the Medes and Persians at the battle of Arbela in 331 B.C., and Greece remained in power until about 168 B.C. Greek soldiers were called "brazen coated" because their armor was all bronze. Notice how each succeeding mineral depicted in the image is less valuable, yet more enduring than the one before it.

40"Then there will be a (BE)fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces.

The iron monarchy of Rome conquered the Greeks in 168 B.C. and enjoyed world supremacy until Rome was captured by the Ostrogoths in A.D. 476. Rome is the kingdom that dominated the world when Jesus Christ was born. Notice how Daniel foretold a thousand years of world history with unerring accuracy. The rise and fall of these four world empires--Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome-are clearly foretold in the Bible and proved by the history books.

 41"In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay.

 42"As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.

 43"And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery.

When the Roman Empire began to crumble in A.D. 476, it was not overtaken by another world power. Instead, barbarian tribes conquered the Roman Empire and divided it--just as Daniel prophesied. Ten of these tribes evolved into modern Europe. They were the Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Alemannians, Sueves, Anglo-Saxons, Heruls, Lombards, and Burgundians. Seven of them still exist today in Europe. For example, the Anglo-Saxons became the English, the Franks became the French, the Alemannians became the Germans, and the Lombards became the Italians

Through marriage, alliances, and treaties, men have vainly attempted to reunite the European continent. All throughout history, leaders such as Charlemagne, Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm, Mussolini, and Hitler have fought to build a new European empire; but these words of Scripture have stopped every single would-be world ruler. Revelation 13 tells us there will be another attempt to establish a universal religion, but Daniel's prophecy clearly states that the world will remain politically divided for the rest of Earth's history.

44"In the days of those kings the (BF)God of heaven will (BG)set up a (BH)kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will (BI)crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

 45"Inasmuch as you saw that a (BJ)stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the (BK)great God has made known to the king what (BL)will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy."

The stone that was cut without human hands represents God's kingdom. It will not be a conglomeration of earthly kingdoms, but a total replacement (Revelation 21:1). The Scriptures declare that when Jesus Christ returns to earth, He will completely consume all the kingdoms of earth and establish an everlasting kingdom (Daniel 2:44). What exciting news! Jesus Christ is coming again! All history is moving toward this climactic conclusion, when the Son of God shall return in majesty to bring in the kingdom of everlasting righteousness. King Nebuchadnezzar may have thought that he had defeated the true God when he besieged Jerusalem and plundered the temple (Daniel 1:1, 2), but he was shown very quickly that God is ruler over all. Human events are under His control, and ultimately He will win the conflict. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the 10 divisions of the Roman Empire may have sought to usurp divine authority and destroy the people of God, but all earthly kingdoms will eventually be crushed by the coming of Christ. Thank God, He will win the great controversy!

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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 10:32pm
Originally posted by buddyman

Strawman argument, some Muslims only claim that a prophecy is about him that is found in the Torah. What is certain, is that Moses did not ever pray to Jesus or teach in his name.

  We know what Moses preached. Did he pray to Jesus? So you're basically saying that Jesus is not God. That is your arguement, right?

It is only your theology that has made the odd claim that HaShem was also a man. There is not a single, solid, explicit evidence that even hints at early Hebrew worship of a triune God. So your belief that God is a man is simply your theological belief, but unfounded in Islam or what is left of the early Hebrew religion, what we now call Judaism.

So my argument is that Moses never prayed or taught in the name of Jesus and there is no evidence to say that he did.

 

By theway, why do you resort to childish name calling? There really isn't any need.

I do not recall any "childish name calling", please point out my insult.

 

If I have insulted you I apologize.

As for Isaiah, the word "virgin", means a woman who has not had sexual intercourse, correct? Where do you get your interpretation from?

the word used in Isaiah 7 is "almah", and there is strong evidence to support the view that the word simply means young woman, and to say that it must strictly mean "virgin", requires some supposition on part of the apologist.

For the sake of argument, I am allowing "almah" to be strictly interpreted as "virgin". Doing so creates more problems in the end.

By the way, you haven't answered some of my questions either....

 

 

what questions? All I have seen from you is a barrage of bible quotes without any proof of their intended use.

I will, insha'Allah, comment on your view of Daniel.

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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buddyman
 
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2007 at 4:29pm

It is only your theology that has made the odd claim that HaShem was also a man. There is not a single, solid, explicit evidence that even hints at early Hebrew worship of a triune God. So your belief that God is a man is simply your theological belief, but unfounded in Islam or what is left of the early Hebrew religion, what we now call Judaism.

Yes there is. Genesis 1:26 for one.

Note from Mod: You are "dumping". You only need to provide one solid example to prove your case, not dump an entire list that has been copied and pasted with vague assertions without any "argument" that proves the verses mean what you assert.

Lets start with the one example above.



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buddyman
 
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2007 at 4:31pm

“Lord God and His Spirit” are responsible for sending Him on His mission of redemption (Isaiah 48:16, 17 NKJV).

   The names of God reveal attributes of His nature. God has a long-established habit of using various names to describe a person’s character. Jacob earned his name that means “swindler” when he practiced deception to steal his father’s blessing away from his brother Esau (Genesis 27:35, 36). At his conversion, Jacob wrestled with the angel and insisted on the blessing of God. Then his name was changed to “Israel,” which means “a prince with God” (Genesis 32:26–28).
     Likewise, the names for God found in Genesis and elsewhere tell us volumes about our Creator. “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). The Hebrew word here for God is Elohim. It is a plural noun that is used more than 2,700 times in the Old Testament. This means that inspired authors preferred to use Elohim about 10 times more than the singular form “El” when they described God. Even in the Old Testament book of Daniel, we see a picture of the Father and the Son as two separate persons. “I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him” (Daniel 7:13). The Son of man, Jesus, is seen coming before the Ancient of Days—who is, obviously, God the Father.
     The New Testament writings are sprinkled with this concept of one God with three united, fully divine persons. The apostle Paul wrote that there were three divine persons: “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (Ephesians 4:4–6).
     Paul frequently referred to the three separate persons of the Godhead. “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14). “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” (Hebrews 9:14).
     Revelation opens by introducing the three persons of the Godhead. “From the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever” (Revelation 1:4–6 NKJV).
     In addition, we clearly see three distinct persons at the baptism of Jesus. “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Matthew 3:16,17).
     If Jesus is the only person in the Godhead, where did the voice come from that declared, “This is my beloved Son”? Did He trisect Himself into a voice from heaven, the dove wafting down through the sky, and His body on the bank of the river? No. This was not simply a clever act of holy smoke and mirrors, but rather a regal reunion revealing the truth of the trinity. And on top of this, it is through the shared authority of these three persons that we are commissioned to baptize. “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19).

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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2007 at 4:36pm

I do not recall any "childish name calling", please point out my insult.

If I have insulted you I apologize.

 

I guess its not what you said, its how you said it. You know, such as I learned what I know from Sunday school, or I'm a missionary. But thank you, I accept your apology

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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 11 July 2007 at 4:52pm

I will, insha'Allah, comment on your view of Daniel.

Looking forward to it. Below are links of history of how my interpretation proves it true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon

[edit] Identification of the four kingdoms

Scholars have proposed two alternative views regarding the identification of the four kingdoms in Daniel 2.

One view has traditionally been more prevalent among Christian scholars, at least as far back as Hippolytus (including Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, and Martin Luther); it has also been supported by some Jewish expositors (including Japet Ibn Ali, Saadia, Rashi, Abraham Ibn Ezra).[4] It is supported by modern scholars such as E. J. Young and Gerhard Pfandl.[5][6] The sequence is as follows:

  1. Babylon
  2. Medo-Persia
  3. Greece
  4. Rome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar%27s_statue_visio n_in_Daniel_2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrus_the_Great

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius_I_of_Persia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_the_Great

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_great

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid_dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonid_dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemaic_dynasty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire

In essence, the "fall" of the Roman Empire to a contemporary of that age depended a great deal on where they were and their status in the world. On the great villas of the Italian Campagna, the seasons rolled on without a hitch. The local overseer may have been representing an Ostrogoth, then a Lombard duke, then a Christian bishop, but the rhythm of life and the horizons of the imagined world remained the same. Even in the decayed cities of Italy consuls were still elected. In Auvergne, at Clermont, the Gallo-Roman poet and diplomat Sidonius Apollinaris, bishop of Clermont, realized that the local "fall of Rome" came in 475, with the fall of the city to the Visigoth Euric. In the north of Gaul, a Roman kingdom existed for some years and the Franks had their links to the Roman administration and military as well. In Hispania the last Arian Visigothic king Liuvigild considered himself the heir of Rome. Hispania Baetica was still essentially Roman when the Moors came in 711, but in the northwest, the invasion of the Suevi broke the last frail links with Roman culture in 409. In Aquitania and Provence, cities like Arles were not abandoned, but Roman culture in Britain collapsed in waves of violence after the last legions evacuated: the final legionary probably left Britain in 409.

 

I'm not going to post everything but you get the gist

 

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