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Message Icon Topic: What is the definition of a prophet? Post Reply Post New Topic
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buddyman
 
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2007 at 12:22pm

No this prophecy about the coming Messiah is very important:

Anointed on time: Daniel 9:25  

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Daniel 9:25

Fulfillment
"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:14-15

"Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;" Luke 3:1-3

 

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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2007 at 12:25pm

No truth is more clearly taught in the Bible than that God by His Holy Spirit especially directs His servants on earth in the great movements for the carrying forward of the work of salvation. Men are instruments in the hand of God, employed by Him to accomplish His purposes of grace and mercy. Each has his part to act; to each is granted a measure of light, adapted to the necessities of his time, and sufficient to enable him to perform the work which God has given him to do. But no man, however honored of Heaven, has ever attained to a full understanding of the great plan of redemption, or even to a perfect appreciation of the divine purpose in the work for his own time. Men do not fully understand what God would accomplish by the work which He gives them to do; they do not comprehend, in all its bearings, the message which they utter in His name.

"Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection?" "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." "I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done." Job 11:7; Isaiah 55:8, 9; 46:9, 10.

Even the prophets who were favored with the special illumination of the Spirit did not fully comprehend the import of the revelations committed to them. The meaning was to be unfolded from age to age, as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained.
Peter, writing of the salvation brought to light through the gospel, says: Of this salvation "the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister." 1 Peter 1:10-12.

Yet while it was not given to the prophets to understand fully the things revealed to them, they earnestly sought to obtain all the light which God had been pleased to make manifest. They "inquired and searched diligently," "searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify." What a lesson to the people of God in the Christian age, for whose benefit these prophecies were given to His servants! "Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister." Witness those holy men of God as they "inquired and searched diligently" concerning revelations given them for generations that were yet unborn. Contrast their holy zeal with the listless unconcern with which the favored ones of later ages treat this gift of Heaven. What a rebuke to the ease-loving, world-loving indifference which is content to declare that the prophecies cannot be understood!

Though the finite minds of men are inadequate to enter into the counsels of the Infinite One, or to understand fully the working out of His purposes, yet often it is because of some error or neglect on their own part that they so dimly comprehend the messages of Heaven. Not infrequently the minds of the people, and even of God's servants, are so blinded by human opinions, the traditions and false teaching of men, that they are able only partially to grasp the great things which He has revealed in His word. Thus it was with the disciples of Christ, even when the Saviour was with them in person. Their minds had become imbued with the popular conception of the Messiah as a temporal prince, who was to exalt Israel to the throne of the universal empire, and they could not understand the meaning of His words foretelling His sufferings and death.

Christ Himself had sent them forth with the message: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." Mark 1:15. That message was based on the prophecy of Daniel 9. The sixty-nine weeks were declared by the angel to extend to "the Messiah the Prince," and with high hopes and joyful anticipations the disciples looked forward to the establishment of Messiah's kingdom at Jerusalem to rule over the whole earth.

They preached the message which Christ had committed to them, though they themselves misapprehended its meaning. While their announcement was founded on Daniel 9:25, they did not see, in the next verse of the same chapter, that Messiah was to be cut off. From their very birth their hearts had been set upon the anticipated glory of an earthly empire, and this blinded their understanding alike to the specifications of the prophecy and to the words of Christ.

70 weeks = 490 years

457 BC - Decree to rebuild Jerusalem (69 weeks or 483 years)

the last week or 7 years = Jesus baptized on AD27 -right on time

in the middle of the week he is cut down - Jesus crucified AD31

His ministry was for 3 1/2 years

the remaining 3 1/2 years the message went out to the gentiles.

AD34 Stephen was stoned.

They performed their duty in presenting to the Jewish nation the invitation of mercy, and then, at the very time when they expected to see their Lord ascend the throne of David, they beheld Him seized as a malefactor, scourged, derided, and condemned, and lifted up on the cross of Calvary. What despair and anguish wrung the hearts of those disciples during the days while their Lord was sleeping in the tomb!

Christ had come at the exact time and in the manner foretold by prophecy. The testimony of Scripture had been fulfilled in every detail of His ministry. He had preached the message of salvation, and "His word was with power." The hearts of His hearers had witnessed that it was of Heaven. The word and the Spirit of God attested the divine commission of His Son.

After His resurrection Jesus appeared to His disciples on the way to Emmaus, and, "beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." Luke 24:27. The hearts of the disciples were stirred. Faith was kindled. They were "begotten again into a lively hope" even before Jesus revealed Himself to them. It was His purpose to enlighten their understanding and to fasten their faith upon the "sure word of prophecy." He wished the truth to take firm root in their minds, not merely because it was supported by His personal testimony, but because of the unquestionable evidence presented by the symbols and shadows of the typical law, and by the prophecies of the Old Testament. It was needful for the followers of Christ to have an intelligent faith, not only in their own behalf, but that they might carry the knowledge of Christ to the world. And as the very first step in imparting this knowledge, Jesus directed the disciples to "Moses and all the prophets." Such was the testimony given by the risen Saviour to the value and importance of the Old Testament Scriptures

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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2007 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by buddyman

Moses did not preach or teach about Mohammed.

Strawman argument, some Muslims only claim that a prophecy is about him that is found in the Torah. What is certain, is that Moses did not ever pray to Jesus or teach in his name.

 

 Moses did preach about a coming prophet. In case you forgot let me refresh your memory. Once the Israelites were delivered from Egyptian bondage, God gave Moses the 10 commandments, correct?

Irrelevant. The 10 commandments have nothing to do with the topic. This is simply a "deflection".

 

 Didn't the Israelites get angry and ask Moses why God only spoke to him? Yes... So then God told them, ok I'll talk to the people. he told them to be prepared, etc. When they all lined up to talk to God, they couldn't bear it, could they. So god then promised a prophet from amoun their own, correct? Jesus

Your "argument" makes no sense, you are saying that God gave the 10 commandments, and then everyone wanted to talk to God, but could not, so therefore God made a promise to send a prophet?

 

1) there already was a prophet in their midst, his name was moses. Who cares if another prophet is sent, they will still not be able to talk to God

2) no where in the Torah does it say that God promised another prophet because they wanted to talk to them. This is called "conjecture", and it is meaningless theological speculation.

You are simply superimposing your Christian assumptions onto the Torah without a single, valid reason.

You should challenge your preconceptions or they will challenge you!

 

 

 

 

Some of the Prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus' first advent

Born of a virgin: Isaiah 7:14

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Isaiah 7:14

This is not a prophecy about Jesus, but an error made by the author of Matthew, which allows us to conclude that the NT is neither "divine" nor "error free".

 I dealt with Isaiah 7:14, and you simply ignored it and now you are once again repeating what you originally asserted. This is moving into the realm of "spam", as you are not actually giving a discussion but just repeating your pastes.

This is the reason I object to your claim of Isaiah 7:14. It is to an older contribution so I edited the beginning so that nothing is irrelevant.

 

 

The key thing to remember is that I am willing, for the sake of argument, to give this point away (for the sake of argument, I am willing to concede that “almah” is strictly virgin, and then through reductio ad absurdum, we shall see the problematic conclusion). In the end, the point given is a double edged sword that causes more problems for the claim. Also, keep in mind that the piece (the apologetic piece that is not relevant to this thread) only dedicates about 1% to the contextual dilemma which is the point I bring forth.

The Context (of Isaiah 7:14) demonstrates:

1) That it makes no difference if the female discussed in 7:14 is a virgin or not (the end result and point of the verse is not dependent upon a strict interpretation of the female being virgin)

2) That the verse is irrelevant to the people of the late second temple

3) The verse talks about a sign, not a miracle, relevant to the people of the time period.

The context:

ü       Two armies from two kingdoms are set to destroy Jerusalem and the Davidic throne.

ü       Gd offers, not a miracle, but a sign to the reigning king of Jerusalem, and the representative of the Davidic line.

The Sign:

ü       A child will be born to a woman. Before the child reaches the age of puberty, the two armies will be destroyed.

Conclusion:

ü       According to the Hebrew Scriptures, this did indeed occur.

The sign, according to any common sense reading, according to any serious exegesis, even with the most conservative of uses of the charity principle (seeking the best, strongest interpretation without twisting it to a preconception), is not the birth but the time line given by the child's age that coincides with the destruction of the armies.

The birth of the child has no bearing on the armies of the two northern kingdoms, but the child does.

According to Christians, it is the birth that is the sign, because the birth is to a virgin, and this is a prophecy about Jesus being born centuries later after the people in Jerusalem are all dead and forgotten about and after the siege had ended. For the sake of the argument, let’s say the verse is about a child born to a virgin, and this is the sign. Let’s also assume it is a prophecy.

This implies

1) There were two virgin births, one at that time and one in the late second temple. This would mean the birth of Jesus was not unique. OR;

2) There was one virgin birth, and somehow, the Hebrews were supposed to be able to render almah as young woman who was not a virgin, and then almah as virgin for the double prophecy meaning, which would be relevant to a future generation that had nothing to do with those who were held captive behind the walls of Jerusalem. I would like for Christians to show me the text that allows someone to render almah as non virgin and then as virgin for the prophecy interpretation.

If the child born was all together part of a prophecy that has nothing to do with King Ahaz, then

1) Which two warring kingdoms of the north were destroyed when Jesus reached the age of puberty?

2) If this part of Isaiah 7 is not part of the prophecy, then please, I would like for Christians to provide me with the methodology that allowed them to rip the point of the story (the destruction of the two warring armies) out of the verse as a non prophecy, and only keep the mentioning of a child born to a virgin separate from the point?

If "almah" in chapter 7 must be strictly interpreted as virgin, then the entire sign should be rendered meaningless. Let’s assume that chapter 7 is about a virgin birth. This would mean that the woman being a virgin is a critical point for 7 to work.

I will demonstrate by now assuming this is not a virgin birth in Isaiah 7.

The birth is not by a virgin.

Before the child reaches puberty.

The two warring armies of the north are destroyed.

The child reaches the age of puberty.  

Conclusion: The end result in the story occurs with or without the word "almah" being rendered "virgin".

Matthew's claim of Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy is obviously a mistake. No one with any serious intention of learning can look at this claim and look at the actual verse and declare it a prophecy about a virgin giving birth.

The main themes of the story are entirely irrelevant to late second temple. What would be the significance at the moment before Jesus knows right from wrong? Would this imply that Jesus did not know right from wrong and had to reach puberty before his true divine self would kick in? What two warring kingdoms were destroyed (armies) before Jesus knew right from wrong? What would Ahaz care about Jesus and late second temple period? Why would Isaiah as Ahaz for a sign for people living in 2 CE?

The answers do not exist, and giving the point away that almah is virgin causes more problems, and unanswered questions.

 

So as you can see, the most sane and rational conclusion is that Matthew was in error, and this verse only works against your assertion. 

The rest of your "copy and paste" list is simply a rhetorical "dump". Dumping is not permitted. Incase you are wondering about the word, this is when someone pastes a large list of verses such that it is nearly impossible and time consuming to have to go through each verse on the list and show that the verse does not mean the unproven assertion of the contributor.

No one will take the time and pour through each verse. You are making "cutting and pasting" as a large part of your discussion. You need to prove what the verses mean.

I have pointed out one verse. You need to deal with it or I will begin editing your contributions.

peace

 


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Andalus
 
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Quote Andalus Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2007 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by buddyman

Moses did not teach of Jesus, and never prayed to him.

Prophet Muhammad (saw)

1) brought miracles

2) abolished idolatry

3) brought a message that was consistant with all other prophets and messengers

4) gave prophecy

 

1) Mohammed brought miracles....Satan uses every conceivable approach to deceive and destroy people. His demons can appear and pose as righteous people, even clergymen. And Satan will appear as a glorious angel of light with power to call fire down from heaven. He will impersonate Jesus. But you have been warned, so don't fall for it. When Jesus comes, every eye will see Him (Revelation 1:7). He will remain in the clouds and not even touch the earth (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

You need to prove your "charges". You can discuss these types of issues, but you must provide some kind of argument or reasoning. You are simply "asserting" your own personal opinions.

1) You have not provided how you can determine that satan had anything to do with the miracles of any kind of prophet?

2) Can this method you are using determine if Paul was not Satanic? Or if Satan mislead the gentile Christians? (do not give me simplistic missionary responses, you made a claim, now I expect you to back it up)

 

2) abolished idolatry - so why does a crescent moon represent Islam?

 

This is called a "complex" question. It is a fallacy. This means you have buried an unproven assumption in the premise of your question.

Prove that a crescent moon negates the claim that Prophet Muhammad (saw) abolished idolatry.

3) brought a message consitant with othe prophets...that is FALSE

Show how it is false.

 

4) gave prophecy - which ones?

about future events. Have you not read the Quran? Are you making sweeping remaks about a faith you have not event studied yet? (your church pastor or polemical sites does not count as studying)

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 9:25am
Buddyman:

2) abolished idolatry - so why does a crescent moon represent Islam?

There is currently no flag of Islam. The crescent moon surely does not represent Islam it is a common flag used by some Muslim countries. However, if there were to be a flag of Islam it would be the flag of Saudi Arabia.

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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 9:50am

Andalus,

I can see you really haven't read the Old Testament...you're starting to crumble. Not only that you fail to discuss the other prophecies.

As for the prophecies Mohammed supposedly prophesied, try reading the Book of Daniel and you will see that they had already been foretold.

Mohammed did not bring the same message as Jesus. He also didn't bring the same message as any of the other prophets in the OT.

No one will take the time and pour through each verse. You are making "cutting and pasting" as a large part of your discussion. You need to prove what the verses mean.

I cut and paste verses from the bible and then expain. If you want to know, you would read them.

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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 9:52am
THE BEAST AND HIS BACKGROUND

A Fearful Warning

     The most fearful warning of punishment found anywhere in the Bible is contained in Revelation 14:9, 10: “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.”
     This description is so alarming and so very unlike all other verses which deal with God’s character that we almost recoil in horror. But it points clearly to a time when God’s mercy will be withheld from those who have persistently rejected the authority of Heaven. It will be an unparalleled performance on the part of God in His relationship to the human family. For almost 6,000 years, His punishing judgments upon the most wicked men have been tempered with mercy. But now the measure of rebellion reaches a point which makes it necessary for God to intervene and to expose the terrible extent of man’s treason against God’s government.
     Right here we are curious to know more about the sin that provokes God’s strange act of fiery punishment. Notice that the final issue involves a false allegiance to the beast power, so often referred to in Bible prophecy. At last, the world shall stand divided into two great camps: those who worship the true God, and those who worship the beast of Revelation 13. But what issue leads to this massive division of the world’s people? After describing the fate of the false worshipers in Revelation 14:9-11, John has this to say in the very next verse: “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” We see here a startling contrast between those who follow the beast and those who follow the Lamb.
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2007 at 9:54am
As you can see the Book of Revelation describes a punishment in the presense of the Lamb. We all know the Lamb if Jesus.
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