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kisan
 
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Quote kisan Replybullet Topic: Shenanigans over Quran desecration
    Posted: 22 May 2005 at 11:12am
Shenanigans over Quran desecration

B.Kisan      22.05.2005

 Recently after a report later retracted by Newsweek magazine of disrespect being shown to the Quran by placing it on toilets and also flushing it down a toilet Muslims around the world have been taking the opportunity to have anti-America flag burnings around the globe. This also comes as a useful pretext for retaking the moral highground after their co-religionists have been rather spoiling the propaganda war with bombings of Shiites and mass killings of civilians and beheadings of hostages.

 The hardcore Islamists like Yamin Zakaria came out with internet articles urging urinating on US and Israeli flags and then using the more traditional venue of fomenting hatred (Friday prayers) the Imam of a Mosque in Calcutta led his congregation of around 500 to burn, spit on and urinate on an American flag.

 Meanwhile the liberal Muslim intellectual Muqtedar Khan was opining for the consumption of Westerners. Without wasting anytime in criticizing his less liberal brethrens responses he was putting this in context for Western ears:   

 He wrote:

This is worse than Abu Ghraib; Abu Ghraib represents the physical and psychological torture of a few Muslims, Quran desecration represents the spiritual, emotional and psychological torture of all Muslims.

 The severity of the offense was outlined by him in the above language, a books supposed desecration was torture of all Muslims. This may seem like hyperbole to ordinary folks but it is something that we need to understand to tread carefully around.

   Just a couple of weeks ago a man called Ashiq Nabi learnt this the hard way after being said to have damaged a copy of the Quran deliberately he was chased by a crowd of 400 spiritually, emotionally and psychologically tortured Muslims, to borrow Muqtedar Khans prose, and after seeking refuge up a tree was shot dead.

Thus Ashiq Nabi was saved being taken to court for blasphemy an offense that carries the death sentence in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. (link to petition against this law)

    Muqtedar Khan continues in his article with various half–truths and apologia like:

 “for Muslims things that are sacred are indeed sacred.”

 This is a half-truth if ever I’ve seen one. Things here mean Muslim things not any old sacred things. When Mohammad destroyed the sacred gods in Mecca these sacred things to others were destroyed and the feelings of others disregarded.

Throughout history whenever pious Muslims destroyed temples and idols they did so out of religious conviction without considering the sacredness of what they destroyed in the eyes of others. When the Bamiyan Buddhas were destroyed by the Taliban this was done knowing it hurt the feelings of those with other beliefs. However Islam inculcates disrespect for others sacred beliefs. In Quran 3:85 it says “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

    In summary for Muslims their own religion and it’s associated elements are sacred and it is not sacred things that are sacred. Desecrating the religious idols of others and doing so is the Sunna of Mohammad and an act of religious merit.

    Actually Muslims are whipped up into a frenzy to frighten anyone from critiquing Islam as this has been a successful strategy over time. An ideology based on lies cannot stand being criticized like it criticizes other ideologies. It must be protected by blasphemy laws where it rules and where it doesn’t rule it’s apologists must seek for it special space free from criticism. This is being done by calling anything critical of Islam Islamophobic a newly minted word meant to shut down critical debate and shame those who dare question anything to do with this privileged ideology.

 Muqtedar Khan continues:

 “Condemnations for Quran desecration and expressions of respect for Islam and Muslims must come from all sections of the society.”

 For him it is not merely sufficient that Condileeza Rice bent over backwards stating this action if it happened at all as against US Govt policy as he quotes but all the sections of society need to become involved in condemnations and expressions of respect. He wants craven dhimmitude from everyone.

    It is a shame that self-described Islamic liberals are engaged in selling us our duties to respect Islam and failing to critique their less liberal brethrens actions.

 

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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2005 at 9:41pm

Lets agree on this, it is wrong to blame a whole nation for the actions of individuals, even if we expect higher moral standards from them, but it is a shame that it did happen. Deeds done in anger complicate things. Anger leads to loss. About the blowing up of buddha statues, i think it is kind of relevant to the issue, because in buddhism it is about spiritualism and letting go of material things, i am sure some buddhists asked themselves:"why did it hurt me when they blew up those material statues?, they did not blow up Buddha, just statues" this is a matter to be pondered on.

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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2005 at 9:44pm
Not to offend the poster of this article in any way but, is it just me or are there more people out there who get a strange feeling when they hear the word "Shenanigans"? i would 'nt say annoyed....it makes me want to giggle and say "please don't say that word", shenanigans....

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kim!
 
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Quote kim! Replybullet Posted: 22 May 2005 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by kisan

Shenanigans over Quran desecration

B.Kisan      22.05.2005

 Recently after a report later retracted by Newsweek magazine of disrespect being shown to the Quran by placing it on toilets and also flushing it down a toilet Muslims around the world have been taking the opportunity to have anti-America flag burnings around the globe. This also comes as a useful pretext for retaking the moral highground after their co-religionists have been rather spoiling the propaganda war with bombings of Shiites and mass killings of civilians and beheadings of hostages.

And? George W Bush used September 11 as a pretext to bomb Afghan weddings and torture loads of innocent people.

They're all the same.

Kim...

PS and I like the return of the word Sheningans. We don't see enough Irish words about the place...

 

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Quote Yusuf. Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2005 at 12:26am

Assalamu alaikum,

Akhi community, the only thing I can offer to agree upon is that kisan is attempting to exploit the entire situation to vilify Muslims as oversensitive and hypocritical. In other words, operating as a propagandist for the Americans.

Yusuf
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kisan
 
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Quote kisan Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2005 at 10:50am

 

Kim:

Afghan weddings were never deliberately bombed this makes it a bit different from the deliberate targetting of civilians like 9/11, Madrid, Shiite Mosques, lines to join the police etc etc. Beheadings of captives and alledged torturing are the same?? I'd rather a bit of torture to being beheaded anytime. Live to tell the tale. However that being said the US has tried and convicted some personnel for torture and this isn't US policy. I would far rather be captured by the US than any other country other than perhaps a few European ones as far as having my dignity and safety respected. Here we find the Guantanamo prisoners had Qurans given to them by the US itself. Imagine the Taliban issuing Bibles or Bhagavad Gitas out to hypothetical prisoners. They wouldn't period. Also just as a preview of Islamic treatment of prisoners read what the Prophet of Islam did to the Banu Quraiza prisoners:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/b_quraiza.htm

Yusuf:

Re: vilifying Muslims as oversensitive and hypocritical this isn't my point. Muslims killing people for blasphemy like the example of Ashiq Nabi isn't being oversensitive it is being barbaric murderers. Hypocritical of course not. Muslims have one rule for their religion another for others. Their religion needs to be respected OR ELSE!! They have the right to denigrate others religions and destroy their false idols. They stick to this principle faithfully without hypocrisy.

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Quote ansari41 Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2005 at 10:38am

Hi, Kisan,

You made a number of challenging comments in your post. Some of the points that you raised are thought provoking, good. When I read them, I thought I would add my opinion on some of those points.

 

You said,

“Just a couple of weeks ago a man called Ashiq Nabi learnt this the hard way after being said to have damaged a copy of the Quran deliberately he was chased by a crowd of 400 spiritually, emotionally and psychologically tortured Muslims, to borrow Muqtedar Khans prose, and after seeking refuge up a tree was shot dead”

 

  • It is an ordinary, very common incident, actually. Let’s look at what might have happened, in detail. A husband and wife quarrelled over something. She complained to the village headman. After listening to her or both husband and wife, he decided, rightly or wrongly, that the husband deserved death penalty. The villagers gathered together and carried out the punishment. That’s all. It is so common an occurrence in the remote areas of many Asian countries such as India and Pakistan, and countries in the African continent, that nobody, other than the law enforcement officers, pays attention to it anymore. But unfortunately in this particular incident, the Qur’an and Muslims were involved and therefore it was made to be a capital sin. Those, who are full of hatred of Islam and who were waiting for a chance, have taken the opportunity to propagate anti-Islamic sentiments. This incident also became handy to them to draw a very ugly picture of Islam. (I am thinking along your line).

You said,

 “The hardcore Islamists like Yamin Zakaria came out with internet articles urging urinating on US and Israeli flags and then using the more traditional venue of fomenting hatred (Friday prayers) the Imam of a Mosque in Calcutta led his congregation of around 500 to burn, spit on and urinate on an American flag.

 

  • Burning of state flags and life effigies of statesmen is a form of protest against injustice. If people have burnt American flags, it means that they were unhappy with America. When talking about burning of American flags, I could not help wondering if there are any countries in which their flags were not burnt. But I was not aware that if Muslims do it, it becomes an unpardonable sin and people will become hysterical about it. One thing I know; even some Americans use their flags to make underwear. If the Americans themselves do not respect their flags, no wonder the others urinate on them. But ‘the hardcore anti-Islamists’ take every opportunity to discredit Islam and spread Anti-Islamic propaganda by blowing such incidents out of proportion.

 

You said,

 

“He wrote:

This is worse than Abu Ghraib; Abu Ghraib represents the physical and psychological torture of a few Muslims, Quran desecration represents the spiritual, emotional and psychological torture of all Muslims.

 The severity of the offense was outlined by him in the above language, a books supposed desecration was torture of all Muslims. This may seem like but it is something that we need to understand to tread carefully around.”

 

  • To some of us Qur’an is just one of those books. But to a Muslim it is the ‘Glorious, Holy Qur’an’. It is Divine to him. He will do anything to make sure its Holiness is protected; and considers it his duty to do so. So, you see, it is not just ‘hyperbole to ordinary folks.’ And therefore it is true that ‘Quran desecration represents the spiritual, emotional and psychological torture of all Muslims.’ And the same thing may apply to the believers of other religions. If a Hindu considers the Bhagavath Geetha in the same way a Muslim considers the Holy Qur’an, he too will feel the same way as a Muslim does. It is not difficult to understand. But, either unfortunately the Hindu doesn’t feel the same about Bhagath Geetha as a Muslim feels about the Qur’an, or fortunately there are no occasions when it is desecrated. And that’s why we do not hear anything about it.

 

You said,

 

“When Mohammad destroyed the sacred gods in Mecca these sacred things to others were destroyed and the feelings of others disregarded.”

 

  • This is a half-truth if ever I’ve seen one’ you said. Yes, indeed it is a half truth. It is a fact that the Grand Mosque of Mecca was built by Prophet Abraham. ([2:127] As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.)”. I am sure you will not turn around and say Prophet Abraham has placed ‘sacred gods’ in the shrine. Then how was it possible for Prophet Mohamed to destroy those ‘sacred gods’. So, the ‘sacred gods’ were left there by the non-Muslims who brought the Grand Mosque under their control. So, naturally the Muslims, when they took over their mosque from the non-believers, destroyed their ‘sacred gods’. Would you expect otherwise? So who was in the wrong, Prophet Mohamed who destroyed the ‘sacred gods’ which were not supposed to be in the Grand Mosque or the Non-Muslims who took over the Mosque and filled it with ‘sacred gods?’ Now, the half-truth becomes an outright lie.

 

You were talking about Muslims destroying ‘sacred gods’ of other religions. Have you heard anything about others destroying Muslims’ sacred objects? No chance!! I have heard about some instances. For example: 341 religious architectural structures were destroyed by a “deliberate planned attack” by the Serbs in Bosnia. A description of all these structures is given in a list at http://odin.let.rug.nl/CB/bosnia/destroyed-1. I went through this list and counted up to 280 mosques among these structures destroyed by the Serbs. Please feel free to visit this site. I assure you that this site is not a ‘traditional venue of fomenting hatred’.

 

One may think that the destruction of mosques is unavoidable as there was a war going on. Well, would you like to know what the Court at Hague was told about it.

The following was taken from the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavias website (http://www.cij.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewReport&repo rtID=353&tribunalID=1&lan)

 

Harvard expert on the cultural heritage of the Ottoman-era Balkans, András Riedlmayer, returned to the ICTY to advise the Court on the results of his study on the Destruction of Cultural Heritage in Bosnia-Herzegovina during the war. … He found that 92% of the 277 Islamic mosques were either heavily damaged or destroyed … "Virtually no minarets survived the 1992-1996 war intact in the parts of Bosnia controlled by Bosnian Serb forces," he concluded in his report filed with the Court … The Bosnian National Library and the Institute for Oriental Studies were both totally destroyed from bombardment with incendiary shells. Mr. Riedlmayer called the destruction of 1.5 million books (the bulk of the Library's collection) "the largest single incident of deliberate book-burning in modern history." The losses at the Oriental Institute included, "the country's richest collection of Islamic manuscripts (5,263 codices in Arabic, Ottoman Turkish, Persian and Bosnian), many of them unique, the products of five centuries of Bosnian Muslim cultural history." … Mr. Riedlmayer concluded that the Bosnian Serb destruction of Islamic and Catholic cultural and religious heritage sites was intentional and systematic. "The damage to these monuments was clearly the result of attacks directed against them, rather than incidental to the fighting." … The likely intent of destroying the cultural and religious heritage of a people, he said, was reflected in a comment by Simo Drljaca, Bosnian Serb police chief in the Prijedor area: "With their mosques, you must not just break the minarets. . . . You've got to shake up the foundations because that means they cannot build another. Do that, and they'll want to go. They'll just leave by themselves."

 

So, “this was done knowing it hurt the feelings of those with other beliefs.”

 

You said,

 

“In Quran 3:85 it says “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

 

·        May be ‘the other gods’ are more attractive. There seems to be a great competition among the ‘gods’. Some gods even say that every path leads to them, and therefore we can live however we want and do whatever we want. And, they would be waiting for us in the next world to bless us. It is up to us to choose. There are many who believe that “whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him…” why not we leave them alone?

 

You said,

 

Afghan weddings were never deliberately bombed …

·        Don’t worry, we understand. There were a few other incidents which were never deliberately done; and people accuse the US deliberately. Poor US!!!. It is blamed for many things that it did ‘undeliberately’.  For example, it killed more than 3500 Afghan civilians  ‘undeliberately’. (The US did not know the cluster bombs could kill so many, did they!!!!). Another example: "a US bomb flattened a flimsy mud-brick home in Kabul on Sunday blowing apart seven children as they ate breakfast with their father. The blast shattered a neighbour's house killing another two children …..the houses were in a residential area called Qalaye Khatir…."  Yet another incident: “My tabulation for October 31st enters a figure of 15 civilians dying in a bombing attack of a Red Crescent hospital in Kandahar.” _ a newspaper reporter

These are just the tip of an iceberg. A few hundred such incidents were quoted to highlight the atrocities of America. If you are interested please let me know.

When a Pentagon official said, "the people there are dead because we wanted them dead." Did he say it ‘undeliberately’ too? Similarly more than 13 000 Iraqi civilians, a great majority of whom are children, women and old folks, were also killed ‘undeliberately’.

("When people decry civilian deaths caused by the U.S. government, they're aiding propaganda efforts. In sharp contrast, when civilian deaths are caused by bombers who hate America, the perpetrators are evil and those deaths are tragedies.”)

“When they put bombs in cars and kill people, they're uncivilized killers. When we put bombs on missiles and kill people, it is upholding civilized values. When they kill, they're terrorists. When we kill, they are striking against terror.” (Quoted from an American)

You said,

”… just as a preview of Islamic treatment of prisoners read what the Prophet of Islam did to the Banu Quraiza prisoners:”

·        Obviously you were referring to the hadith: “When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280). Before we make any comments based on this hadith, we should take certain factors into consideration. We should remember this incident took place 1500 years ago. We should also consider what kind of life was the Prophet and his people were leading. Under those conditions, what would you do if you were in Sad’s shoes? Probably, you may consider doing what the US is doing with the Afghan and Iraqi detainees (But these Afghan and Iraqi prisoners are not Prisoners of War). So, Sad should have decided to keep them in a detention camp? Then they had to feed them, but could humiliate them and torture them? Was it really what was expected of Muslims? How could they run a detention camp? So we know that it was not possible. Then what would have been the next best option? Keep them as guests? But remember, the Prophet and his followers had occasions when they had to go without food for days! Based on the prevailing conditions of those days, the prisoners would have been sold as slaves. Do you think they would have preferred that? I am sure they would have preferred to die with dignity. Not only that, you know that Islam is against slavery. So, do you still find fault with Sad’s judgment?

Incidentally, the following two hadiths are noteworthy and are fine examples of the Prophet’s dealings with captives:

The Prophet said, "Free the captives, feed the hungry and pay a visit to the sick." (Volume 4, Book 52, Number 282)

The Prophet said, "Set free the captives and accept invitations." (Volume 9, Book 89, Number 285)

 

You said,

“Muslims killing people for blasphemy like the example of Ashiq Nabi isn't being oversensitive it is being barbaric murderers.”

 

·        Muslims follow their religion very strictly, and prescribe punishment according to Shariah. To them, the rules of the religion are meant to be obeyed strictly, and not meant to be broken. If that is so, how can we blame Muslims for obeying the rules set out in Shariah? If we do that, we are trying to tell them not to follow their religion. We cannot bring in the other religions as example. Again, if we do that, we would have to tell the Muslims to forgo their religion for one of the other religions. Are we going to do that? I think the next best thing we can do is, prove that Islam is not a desirable religion, or at least not as good as any one of the other religions. Are YOU ready for that?

 

In conclusion, after reading your post, I am amazed at the influence of propaganda. And also I am convinced that media (especially the Western Media) is much more powerful and destructive than any of the weapons so far invented.

 

 

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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2005 at 11:33am

Afghan weddings were never deliberately bombed this makes it a bit different from the deliberate targetting of civilians like 9/11, Madrid,

Even if they were not deliberately bombed, it should still be considered murder, because it was not impossible for the U.S govt. to anticipate such "accidents" or "collateral-damage" and West attacks other nations to rob them, rather than, to defend itself.

Also, I know some of the Muslim combatants who are fighting non-muslims are wrong, but I still don't hate them because they don't attack first and kill much less compared to the number of Muslims that have been killed by non-muslims in the past 25 years.

Its highly unlikely, that some of the Muslim combatants will be forgiven by Allah, but I still pray for forgiveness of all of them because they fought for Muslims against the non-muslims and their muslim collaborators.

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
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