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Originally posted by islamispeace

"If they merely misunderstood Jesus' claim, would not Jesus have corrected them? The failure of Jesus to correct them is either an affirmation that their understanding was correct, or a blatant misleading of the people. Dare any man lay this charge at the feet of God?"

Maybe he didn't get a chance to explain because they were stoning him?  How could he explain when a barrage of stones was coming his way?
Is that the only arguement you have?

"Consider the context of Matthew 14:33, where after walking on the water, which no man could do without the power of God, (Mat 14:33 KJV) "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." This "obeisance" came at the time of yet another proof that Jesus was "the Son of God"."

Consider also that Matthew 14 also claims that Jesus prayed alone (verse 23).  This act of praying contradicts his alleged divinity, does it not?  Also, consider that upon comparing the account in Matthew 14 with the account in Mark 6, we see that Mark does not mention the disciples worshipping Jesus or testifying that he was the "Son of God."  Mark 6 says the following:

"45Immediately Jesus made his disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to Bethsaida, while he dismissed the crowd. 46After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray. 47When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. 48He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 49but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, 50because they all saw him and were terrified.  Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 51Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down. They were completely amazed, 52for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened."

Compare that to the account in Matthew and we see an obvious discrepancy.  Consider also that the Gospel of Mark was written before the Gospel of Matthew.  Could the account in Matthew 14 simply have been the author's interpolation and not necessarily based on fact?  

"(Mat 26:63-65 NKJV) "...Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" {64} Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. ..." {65} Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy!"

Compare this account to John 18 and we see a completely different scenario.  In the Gospel of John, Jesus is asked by the high priest about his teachings and about his disciples, and does not directly ask him whether he is "the Christ, the Son of God."  Jesus' answer also makes no mention that he is the Son of God.  Here is how the conversation went, according to the author of the Gospel of John:

"9Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. 20"I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. 21Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said." 22When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. 23"If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" 24Then Annas sent him, still bound, to Caiaphas the high priest.^[b]"

There is no consensus in the Gospels about Jesus' character.  One says he was worshiped after he walked on water, whereas the other does not.  Would it not have been worthwhile to mention in all the Gospels that Jesus was worshiped?  Would that not have solidified the claim and bring consensus to the matter at hand?  

It really doesn;t matter if one says it and one doesn't. The fact of the matter is the ONE does say it.  Mone book may say a specific account of one thing that happened and one may leave something out but ALL OF THE BOOKS have proclaimed Jesus's divinity.There is too much evidence that Jesus and the Father are One. Have you actually read the Bible from cover to cover? 

Author	Message
buddyman Senior Member Joined: 26 June 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 295	Posted: 16 July 2007 at 2:27pm
	*Originally posted by islamispeace* "If they merely misunderstood Jesus' claim, would not Jesus have corrected them? The failure of Jesus to correct them is either an affirmation that their understanding was correct, or a blatant misleading of the people. Dare any man lay this charge at the feet of God?" Maybe he didn't get a chance to explain because they were stoning him? How could he explain when a barrage of stones was coming his way? Is that the only arguement you have? "Consider the context of Matthew 14:33, where after walking on the water, which no man could do without the power of God, (Mat 14:33 KJV) "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God." This "obeisance" came at the time of yet another proof that Jesus was "the Son of God"." Consider also that Matthew 14 also claims that Jesus prayed alone (verse 23). This act of praying contradicts his alleged divinity, does it not? Also, consider that upon comparing the account in Matthew 14 with the account in Mark 6, we see that Mark does not mention the disciples worshipping Jesus or testifying that he was the "Son of God." Mark 6 says the following: "45Immediately Jesus made his disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to Bethsaida, while he dismissed the crowd. 46After leaving them, he went up on a mountainside to pray. 47When evening came, the boat was in the middle of the lake, and he was alone on land. 48He saw the disciples straining at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake. He was about to pass by them, 49but when they saw him walking on the lake, they thought he was a ghost. They cried out, 50because they all saw him and were terrified. Immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." 51Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down. They were completely amazed, 52for they had not understood about the loaves; their hearts were hardened." Compare that to the account in Matthew and we see an obvious discrepancy. Consider also that the Gospel of Mark was written before the Gospel of Matthew. Could the account in Matthew 14 simply have been the author's interpolation and not necessarily based on fact? "(Mat 26:63-65 NKJV) "...Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" {64} Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. ..." {65} Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying, "He has spoken blasphemy!" Compare this account to John 18 and we see a completely different scenario. In the Gospel of John, Jesus is asked by the high priest about his teachings and about his disciples, and does not directly ask him whether he is "the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus' answer also makes no mention that he is the Son of God. Here is how the conversation went, according to the author of the Gospel of John: "9Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching. 20"I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. 21Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said." 22When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. 23"If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" 24Then Annas sent him, still bound, to Caiaphas the high priest.^[b]" There is no consensus in the Gospels about Jesus' character. One says he was worshiped after he walked on water, whereas the other does not. Would it not have been worthwhile to mention in all the Gospels that Jesus was worshiped? Would that not have solidified the claim and bring consensus to the matter at hand? It really doesn;t matter if one says it and one doesn't. The fact of the matter is the ONE does say it. Mone book may say a specific account of one thing that happened and one may leave something out but ALL OF THE BOOKS have proclaimed Jesus's divinity.There is too much evidence that Jesus and the Father are One. Have you actually read the Bible from cover to cover?
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 16 July 2007 at 4:44pm
	Hello Buddyman. "Is that the only arguement you have?" It makes sense. You asked why Jesus did not correct the Jews. Doesn't it make sense that because they were stoning him, he did not get the chance? "It really doesn;t matter if one says it and one doesn't. The fact of the matter is the ONE does say it. Mone book may say a specific account of one thing that happened and one may leave something out but ALL OF THE BOOKS have proclaimed Jesus's divinity.There is too much evidence that Jesus and the Father are One. Have you actually read the Bible from cover to cover?" I respect your opinion, but vociferously disagree. Of course it matters that they all say the samething. Why did both Matthew and Mark mention the other details of the account (Jesus dismissing the people, Jesus praying alone, Jesus walking on water, the disciples thinking they were seeing a ghost, even that the wind died down) but somehow Mark leaves out what would be the most important and revolutionary detail of the account? Don't you think that it was more important for Mark to mention that the disciples "worshiped" Jesus and testified that he was the "son of God" than to mention that the disciples thought that he was a "ghost"? Also, why did Matthew and Mark both mention that Jesus PRAYED? To whom was he praying to and why?
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Andalus Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1187	Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:41pm
	*Originally posted by buddyman* Andalus, I believe you've been the one who has been taught out of context. Through out the Bible God tells us who he is. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. You don't have to agree, and that is your choice. So this means you have no reply to anything I have written? All of the copying and pasting you have done and now you sit in silence. That is a shame. It is a shame that faced with valid objections to your beliefs, you simply deflect and blame me for "not having read the bible", and "not being tuaght properly". I must also point out that you have not read every book of the Bible. Irrelevant. (though I know your OT very well and your NT fairly well). I have read your bible enough to know that your beliefs I replied to are weak and are problematic. All you have been taught is to dispute the Godhead/Trinity, so that's were all your focus has been. You need to read and STUDY the entire Bible. All you have been taught is to believe the trinity without question, so much so that you will take implicit verses in the bible and twist them until you can superimose your theological opinions on them. Furthermore, you have no idea what I have been taught or what my background is. If my case is so weak, then show where my fault is by replying with relevant material directly to my points of objections. Still waiting on your notes about Daniel. Actually I did reply, the ball is in your court.
	A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 16 July 2007 at 7:54pm
	"Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that." Complete and utter nonsense. I thought you were better than that buddyman. Slandering the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? What do you know about the blessed Muhammad (pbuh)? He was no murderer. He was the greatest man to have ever lived, and the most beloved to Allah (swt). Do not slander him. He was a brother to Jesus and they both worshiped Allah (swt) alone.
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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paarsurrey Groupie Joined: 16 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 82	Posted: 16 July 2007 at 10:42pm
	Hi I have gone through the posts and would like to say that the original poster is a Christian and uless we define the Prophets and have criteria for a truthful prophet and criteria of a false prophet we cannot discern false prophet from a true prophet. To start with I would quote three passages from OTBible: "If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NIV). Another test for determining false prophets in the Torah is found in Deuteronomy 18:20-22. The text is as follows: "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death." "You may say to yourselves, 'How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?' If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NIV). The penalty for false prophecy, according to the biblical context, is capital punishment (per Deuteronomy 13:1-5). I would like to point out that our Prophet Muhammad , Peace be upon him,Khatumun Nabiyyeen, could not be killed by the Jews and Christians though they were the world power at that time, and great in numbers, and they had been clearly commanded in OTBible to kill a false prophet and should not be afraid of him. This proves beyond doubt that Muhammad was a truthful Prophet . Paul was a false Prophet and hence he was killed. Thanks
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Andalus Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1187	Posted: 17 July 2007 at 12:16am
	*Originally posted by buddyman* *Originally posted by minuteman* We understand that he (Jesus) and Father are one. That is no harm. You see that the christains use too many metaphors. Jesus is not the real son of God. he is only spiritual son of God. Jesus is the begotten son of God. that is also not real. begotten in the sense that he was spiritually begotten. If it was spiritual we would have been told it was. We see that the christians will keep on using such words without telling any one that they are not in the real general sense of the words. If they tell in the beginning that Jesus was the spiritual son of god then we may not have too much difference and we may not deny or argue in that matter. They are not really in the sense of the word??? Sounds like an excuse to me. Butthe christians will keep on pressing that Jesus was the son of God. He was the begotten son of god. But when forcd and questioned and cornered seriously, they will say,Ph, he is not the real biological son of God... What a joke. If they say that in the beginning then there would notbe so much argument. Again you make no sense. You haven't given me a question I haven't answered. It is same about Trinity. They will press for three gods. When they are bombarded from various angles then they realize that it is a difficult thing to pass off easily. So they will say that God is one. Then they will say that god is one and three at the same time. How could that be?? it is you who is bombarded. The Bible says if you deny Jesus you will not be saved. You see, all you guys do is provide quotes with out actually reading the Bible in its entirety. Then about Jesus. They need him as a man and as a son of a man, and as a god and as a son of god and as a teacher and saviour and as prophet too. Now when he is a god himself thn why he should be a prophet of god. Is he a prophet of himself??? I am sure that the christians cannot explain any of tehse things but let them do it if they can. We are ready to listen to their lecture. How sad that you don't believe God is almighty.he can do everything and anything. The topic here is false prophets. We believe John the baptist was a true prophet of God. So was Zakariyyah. So was Jesus. And also we believe in all the Mosaic prophets of God before Jesus as true prophets. I see that it is only Muhammad who is tellingus that Jesus was a true prophet of God and so was John the baptist. No one else believes thatJesus was a prophet at all. If any nation other than Muslims believes that Jesus was a prophet of God then I would like to know about those people. The word prophet means messenger. There is a Messiah, which Jesus prooved tohave been. If you read the Bible you would know. The christians do not realise the importance of the good work of Muhammad. No one believes other than christians believe in Jesus as a good man even. Leave alone that any one will admit that he was a prophet of god. Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that. Please do not insult the Prophet (saw). This is against forum guid lines. You are allowed to discuss topics about Prophet Muhammad (saw), just as long as it is a discussion and you bring evidence to support your claims. I am curious! According to you,Moses prayed to Jesus because God is a triune godhead since the beginning. If this is so, then Jesus would actually be a murderer according to your own bible. The babies and children and women at Jericho present a theological problem to the missionary diatribe of Jesus loving all babies and loving only peace. Prophet Muhammad (saw) never committed a murder, and if you claim he is a murderer, then bring your proof or do not slander him (saw). Neither did Prophet Jesus (saw) ever order the slaughter of babies and women as your theology and holy book imply. regards
	A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/
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minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 17 July 2007 at 5:11am
	We understand that he (Jesus) and Father are one. That is no harm. You see that the christains use too many metaphors. If it was spiritual we would have been told it was. Dear me , I have been to other christian boards and they (protestants) aftera long long discussion admitted that Jesus was not a real son of God. he was not a biological son of God. They rathe raccused us about thinking that Jesus was the real son of God. You are talking in a different language. We see that the christians will keep on using such words without telling any one that they are not in the real general sense of the words. . They are not really in the sense of the word??? Sounds like an excuse to me. That is a problem. There are too many metaphors. I and Father are one. That is a simple sentence and we understand that Jesus is from God. That God is with him. That is all. Nothing more. There is no need to put Jesus into the Father. Butthe christians will keep on pressing that Jesus was the son of God. He was the begotten son of god. Again you make no sense. You haven't given me a question I haven't answered. You are not the only one. It is true that I have not discussed this with you at length. But it has been done for a long time on another christian board and I am giving you their remarks that we got in the end aftera long dual and gruel. It is same about Trinity. They will press for three gods. When they are bombarded from various angles then they realize that it is a difficult thing to pass off easily. So they will say that God is one. Then they will say that god is one and three at the same time. How could that be?? it is you who is bombarded. The Bible says if you deny Jesus you will not be saved. You see, all you guys do is provide quotes with out actually reading the Bible in its entirety. Jesus never taught Trinity. He never uttered the word Trinity. Show me it from the bible if you have. We do no deny the real status of Jesus. While you abuse Muhammad, we believe in Jesus as a true prophet of God. That was also the belief of the maximum people of his native homeland. That believed inJesus as a prophet. So, please do not say "If you deny Jesus...." Butdon't at the same time expect that we will take Jesus as a God. Give us some breathing space. Then about Jesus. They need him as a man and as a son of a man, and as a god and as a son of god and as a teacher and saviour and as prophet too. Now when he is a god himself thn why he should be a prophet of god. Is he a prophet of himself??? How sad that you don't believe God is almighty.he can do everything and anything. Of course God can do what He likes. Remember the word "What He likes" and not what you like. God is almighty and can do what He likes. The topic here is false prophets. We believe John the baptist was a true prophet of God. So was Zakariyyah. So was Jesus. And also we believe in all the Mosaic prophets of God before Jesus as true prophets. The word prophet means messenger. There is a Messiah, which Jesus prooved tohave been. If you read the Bible you would know. We read the bible and we agree that Jesus was the Messiah, the promised Messiah. The one who had come to improve the lot of the Jews.... The christians do not realise the importance of the good work of Muhammad. No one believes other than christians believe in Jesus as a good man even. Mohammed murdered. Jesus have life. Mohammed sinned. Jesus NEVER sinned...think about that. That was very bad of you. If it was not for Muhammad then nobody would have known about Jesus. There are christains (Say 2 billion) in the world. There are Muslims (say 1.6 billion) in the world. So altogether 3.6 billion people believe in Jesus as a messenger of Allah. That should be enough and good for all. My latest remarks are all in pink color.
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
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buddyman Senior Member Joined: 26 June 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 295	Posted: 17 July 2007 at 8:33am
	*Originally posted by Andalus* *Originally posted by buddyman* Andalus, I believe you've been the one who has been taught out of context. Through out the Bible God tells us who he is. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. You don't have to agree, and that is your choice. So this means you have no reply to anything I have written? All of the copying and pasting you have done and now you sit in silence. That is a shame. It is a shame that faced with valid objections to your beliefs, you simply deflect and blame me for "not having read the bible", and "not being tuaght properly". I must also point out that you have not read every book of the Bible. Irrelevant. (though I know your OT very well and your NT fairly well). I have read your bible enough to know that your beliefs I replied to are weak and are problematic. All you have been taught is to dispute the Godhead/Trinity, so that's were all your focus has been. You need to read and STUDY the entire Bible. All you have been taught is to believe the trinity without question, so much so that you will take implicit verses in the bible and twist them until you can superimose your theological opinions on them. Furthermore, you have no idea what I have been taught or what my background is. If my case is so weak, then show where my fault is by replying with relevant material directly to my points of objections. Still waiting on your notes about Daniel. Actually I did reply, the ball is in your court. Andalus, That is a cop out. You know it and I know it. If you have proof of something I'm sure you post it immediatley. As for knowing the OT...Daniel is in the OT...hmmm. Your arguements are very weak. You're afraid that you're being proven wrong. You shouldn't look at it that way. You should be filled with joy that God loves you so much that he is reaching out to you so you will know him. God Bless You
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